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Welcome to the Be Good podcast,

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where we explore the application of behavioral economics for good in order to nudge better business and better lives.

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Hi,

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and welcome to this episode of Be Good,

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brought to you by BVA Nudge Consulting,

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a global consultancy specializing in the application of behavioral science for successful data change.

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Every month,

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we get to speak with a leader in the field of behavioral science,

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psychology,

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and neuroscience.

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in order to get to know more about them,

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their work,

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and its application to emerging issues.

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My name is Eric Singler,

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Managing Director of the BVA family and Founder and CEO of BVA Energy Consulting.

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Today,

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I am delighted to be introducing this episode's guest,

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Professor Michael Morton.

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Mike is a Professor of Business Administration at Harvard Business School,

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where he is a member of the Harvard Berdolz-Zeit Group.

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Mike's research focuses on behavioral economics and well-being.

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His work has been widely published in academic journals like

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Science, the Quarterly Journal of Economics,

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the American Economic Review,

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and has appeared in the Wall Street Journal,

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on CNN,

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in Forbes,

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and the New York Times.

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Mike has been selected,

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congrats Mike,

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for

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Wide

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Magazine Smart.

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list as one of the

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50 people who will change the world.

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A big responsibility,

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I think.

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And his TED Talk covering the learnings of his first book,

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Happy Money,

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has been viewed more than 4.5 million times.

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So

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Mike has just published a new book,

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The

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Ritual Effect from Habit to Ritual,

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Harness the Surprising Power of Everyday Action,

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that will be

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at the heart of our conversation today.

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Mike,

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welcome to our Be Good podcast.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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It's great to get the chance to chat.

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So,

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Mike,

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before we talk about your amazing book,

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we would like to know a little more about yourself and your career.

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I think,

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correctly if I'm wrong,

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that you received your VA in psychology from Williams College and you're...

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PhD in social psychology from Princeton University before joining the MIT as a post-doctoral fellow from 2002 to 2005 and later

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Harvard Business

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School as an assistant professor and now professor.

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So a wonderful background.

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Can you tell us about how you come to be interested in psychology?

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and maybe more precisely in behavioral science.

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I think that,

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so as an undergraduate,

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I took a class on social psychology,

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like an intro social psychology class,

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and the professor was

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Steve Fine,

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who's a wonderful guy and a wonderful researcher and an amazing teacher,

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which I think is very important.

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But one of the things,

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I didn't really know much about psychology when I took this class.

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One of the things that he did was there's these classic experiments on imitation in kids about aggression,

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where they show an adult basically punching this,

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it's called a Bobo doll.

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It's an inflatable thing where if you punch it,

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it falls down and pops back up.

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They're old experiments,

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but it's basically if adults punch the doll,

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will little kids copy them later kind of thing.

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And he,

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Steve said he had the Bobo doll.

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It's like a.

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life-size kind of doll.

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And as he was explaining the experiment,

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he just started to like punch the doll a little bit.

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So he was talking like a professor,

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you know,

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like in the experiment,

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they were careful to something,

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but he also was punching his doll a little bit.

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And then finally,

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he kind of lost it and started attacking the doll and kicking it around.

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And for some reason,

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I thought,

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oh my gosh,

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that's not only is it a fascinating question,

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right?

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Which is how do kids learn aggression,

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kindness,

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you know,

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a very fundamental question about people.

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But also he was so clearly having fun teaching it.

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And both of those things were important.

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It was the intellectual curiosity,

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but also I think the spirit of joy in learning about people.

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And that's really what hooked me,

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I think.

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Both things are equally important to me.

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Of course the intellectual insight is number one,

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but can we love what we're doing and love that we're learning about people and actually really be rooting for the people we're studying also?

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We have a great view of humans and we're just trying to understand them better.

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So I think for me,

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that was the real.

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point at which I thought maybe I'd like to do something like that with my career.

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And can you tell us more about why your interest in well-being and happiness?

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You started today.

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My dissertation research was primarily on prejudice and discrimination and biased decision-making.

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And I've still continued that line of work

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20 years later.

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But at some point,

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I was studying

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those things.

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And Liz Dunn,

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my eventual co-author on the book that you mentioned,

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Happy Money,

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she said,

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basically,

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you're being depressing and we're going to start studying happiness together.

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And this was a long time ago.

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This was when not a lot of people were studying well-being.

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This is 20,

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25 years ago.

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Certainly there were giants who had been studying Ed Diener and people like that.

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And Danny Kahneman had started to study it,

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but it was still kind of a topic that a lot of people felt was too fuzzy.

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You know,

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how do we measure happiness?

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What is happiness?

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But Liz is,

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I don't know if you've met Liz,

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she's incredibly smart.

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And so I said,

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let's do it.

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And Liz said,

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the initial idea,

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she said,

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what if we could just show that when people spend their money,

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it makes them happier to spend it on somebody else than to spend it on themselves.

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Which is such as,

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and I mean this as a compliment,

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a simple idea,

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an elegant idea,

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but the implications are enormous.

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And so I was hooked right then.

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So I basically said,

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may I work on that idea with you?

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Because

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I thought it was such an amazing idea.

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And that really was what launched it.

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Was this idea of what are the kind of small everyday actions that people can take to change their daily well-being?

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The big questions,

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you know.

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unemployment,

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marriage,

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divorce,

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salary,

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those things,

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of course,

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are critical for our well-being.

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But I think because we were social psychologists,

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we were really interested in the kind of the smaller lived experience of our actions so that it's not what happens if you win the lottery,

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but what happens if you spend $5 on a friend instead of on yourself.

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Yeah.

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And I remember some experiments about the lottery winners.

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And here again,

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it's not so critical.

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A clear,

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meaning you could earn a big lottery,

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eating trees,

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if I well understood,

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your happiness during maybe two years and after you restart at your starting point,

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I would say.

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I used to ask a question,

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which was think of your friend,

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friend or family member who's the happiest person you know.

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And people can usually think of one or two people right away.

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And then I say,

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is that person the wealthiest person you know?

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Almost never.

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Just not.

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They might be.

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It's not that wealth is bad,

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but it just isn't the key to being a really,

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really happy person.

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It's an input,

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but there's so many other things that matter.

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Okay.

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We will talk later a little about this.

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And last about your background.

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Could you share with us any mentors that had a particularly strong influence on you?

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Any researchers or other people?

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My Steve Fine,

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for sure,

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who I mentioned,

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who was my undergraduate professor,

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that was the first person I did a research project with as well,

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and kind of introduced me to the whole idea of social science research in a way.

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My dissertation advisor was John Darley,

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who was famous for his research on bystander intervention.

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in the late

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1960s and early

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1970s.

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And he showed many things,

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but one of the things that he showed was that the more people that witness an emergency,

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the less likely someone is to get help,

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which is completely counterintuitive at first,

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because you'd think the more people,

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the more help.

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But of course,

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what he showed is that people diffuse the responsibility,

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and so everyone looks around and says,

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well,

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maybe she'll help,

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maybe he'll help,

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and nobody helps.

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It's a really powerful,

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powerful idea.

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And when I was in graduate school,

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whenever there was a situation in the world where bystanders had failed to help,

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they would interview

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John Darley on the news.

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And sometimes he would have to explain why the person didn't get help.

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But sometimes someone would say,

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they would say to someone who actually helped,

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they would say,

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well,

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why did you decide,

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you know,

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nobody was helping.

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Why did you decide to help?

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And the person would say,

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well,

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you know,

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I took this psychology class as an undergrad.

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And I remember this experiment where this guy showed that the more people who are around.

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the less likely anybody is to help.

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And I thought,

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oh my,

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it's happening right now.

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I should really help them.

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So this,

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my advisor was literally somebody whose research kind of saved lives.

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It was a very,

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very high standard as a doctoral student to think,

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oh,

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my gosh,

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how am I going to ever have that kind of impact?

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But I think the cleverness of the idea,

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you know,

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again,

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that more people means less help.

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And then the practical implications of that being like so profoundly important.

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It changed the way I thought about the whole enterprise,

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you know,

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that you could you could I have not had that kind of impact.

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But but but as a thing to shoot for,

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I was very,

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very motivating.

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Before we talk about your new book,

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I can't resist,

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I told you that I have loved

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Happy Money,

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and I would like to ask some,

277
00:10:42.921 --> 00:10:45.102
maybe just one question about

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00:10:45.462 --> 00:10:48.383
Happy Money that you have co-authored with

279
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Professor Lisdon,

280
00:10:50.643 --> 00:10:53.524
with this fundamental question.

281
00:10:54.164 --> 00:11:00.866
How can we spend our money to create happiness for ourselves and those around us?

282
00:11:01.546 --> 00:11:04.608
Give some good advice to our listeners.

283
00:11:05.889 --> 00:11:09.952
The first thing I would say is kind of a disclaimer,

284
00:11:10.052 --> 00:11:14.215
which is one thing that's great to do is not spend your money and save it.

285
00:11:14.595 --> 00:11:17.497
So we have other research that is,

286
00:11:17.537 --> 00:11:17.917
in fact,

287
00:11:17.957 --> 00:11:21.140
about encouraging people to save more right now,

288
00:11:21.180 --> 00:11:22.521
to save more for retirement.

289
00:11:23.321 --> 00:11:23.821
Exactly.

290
00:11:24.402 --> 00:11:26.663
So saving is great.

291
00:11:26.803 --> 00:11:30.286
And setting yourself up to have a good retirement is so important.

292
00:11:31.158 --> 00:11:31.618
However,

293
00:11:31.758 --> 00:11:34.899
it's also the case that people are going to spend some of their money.

294
00:11:35.599 --> 00:11:38.760
So if you accept that fact that it's not,

295
00:11:38.940 --> 00:11:40.141
we can't just save everything,

296
00:11:40.181 --> 00:11:41.141
we're going to live lives,

297
00:11:41.681 --> 00:11:43.362
then out of that pool of money,

298
00:11:43.802 --> 00:11:44.882
what should people do with it?

299
00:11:44.882 --> 00:11:46.643
That was kind of the guiding question.

300
00:11:47.243 --> 00:11:51.364
It's not that you should just spend more and more money and then you'll be happier.

301
00:11:51.604 --> 00:11:54.305
It's as a portfolio of what you do with your money.

302
00:11:54.965 --> 00:11:57.666
There's saving and then there's lots of other things that you can do.

303
00:11:58.586 --> 00:12:03.468
And the way that we started the research on this was we just asked people to tell us how they spent their money.

304
00:12:04.748 --> 00:12:06.608
And we also asked them how happy they were.

305
00:12:06.628 --> 00:12:06.808
I mean,

306
00:12:06.808 --> 00:12:06.969
very,

307
00:12:06.989 --> 00:12:07.549
very simple,

308
00:12:07.969 --> 00:12:08.229
you know,

309
00:12:08.769 --> 00:12:09.429
research question,

310
00:12:09.469 --> 00:12:11.890
which is just what correlates with what.

311
00:12:13.550 --> 00:12:14.071
And of course,

312
00:12:14.111 --> 00:12:15.131
later we did the experiments,

313
00:12:15.151 --> 00:12:15.271
etc.

314
00:12:15.831 --> 00:12:16.191
But really,

315
00:12:16.191 --> 00:12:17.132
we just asked people,

316
00:12:17.152 --> 00:12:17.392
you know,

317
00:12:18.012 --> 00:12:18.752
how did you spend your money?

318
00:12:19.132 --> 00:12:20.993
You could look at your credit card statement this month.

319
00:12:21.473 --> 00:12:22.673
Just look back through it and think,

320
00:12:22.713 --> 00:12:25.254
what categories am I spending in?

321
00:12:26.158 --> 00:12:26.418
You know,

322
00:12:26.499 --> 00:12:27.159
these are bills,

323
00:12:27.199 --> 00:12:28.180
these are expenses,

324
00:12:28.860 --> 00:12:30.501
these might be dinners out.

325
00:12:30.582 --> 00:12:30.802
You know,

326
00:12:30.782 --> 00:12:32.643
you could really think about how you're spending your money.

327
00:12:33.444 --> 00:12:37.026
And what we found was that the amount of money that people spent on themselves,

328
00:12:37.166 --> 00:12:40.369
which is like bills and expenses and stuff that we have to do,

329
00:12:41.269 --> 00:12:43.411
is just not very predictive of your well-being.

330
00:12:44.272 --> 00:12:45.693
It's not negatively predictive.

331
00:12:45.793 --> 00:12:46.313
In other words,

332
00:12:46.333 --> 00:12:48.635
it's not that if you spend money on yourself,

333
00:12:48.695 --> 00:12:49.395
you're sad.

334
00:12:50.216 --> 00:12:52.798
It's just that there doesn't seem to be much of a relationship.

335
00:12:53.526 --> 00:12:54.807
And that was the first insight,

336
00:12:54.887 --> 00:12:55.107
really,

337
00:12:55.167 --> 00:12:55.667
which is just,

338
00:12:55.667 --> 00:12:55.867
you know,

339
00:12:55.887 --> 00:12:56.607
sometimes people think,

340
00:12:56.687 --> 00:12:56.807
oh,

341
00:12:56.867 --> 00:12:58.668
people who spend a lot are miserable.

342
00:12:59.328 --> 00:13:00.089
We don't tend,

343
00:13:00.109 --> 00:13:00.309
I mean,

344
00:13:00.329 --> 00:13:01.309
maybe at the extremes,

345
00:13:01.329 --> 00:13:03.450
but we don't tend to see that relationship.

346
00:13:04.170 --> 00:13:04.951
But then the question was,

347
00:13:04.991 --> 00:13:06.851
is there anything that's positively correlated?

348
00:13:06.891 --> 00:13:07.152
You know,

349
00:13:07.592 --> 00:13:10.433
are there any buckets that actually are positively correlated?

350
00:13:10.953 --> 00:13:12.094
And the ones that pop up,

351
00:13:12.514 --> 00:13:13.434
not just in our research,

352
00:13:13.474 --> 00:13:16.075
but across many research programs,

353
00:13:16.735 --> 00:13:18.656
buying experiences tends to be one.

354
00:13:18.696 --> 00:13:22.918
So given the choice between buying a thing and buying an experience.

355
00:13:23.510 --> 00:13:27.032
Tends to be the case for most people that experiences result in more happiness.

356
00:13:27.713 --> 00:13:29.594
And the research that we did in particular was,

357
00:13:29.894 --> 00:13:30.615
as I mentioned,

358
00:13:31.115 --> 00:13:32.656
rather than buy a thing for yourself,

359
00:13:32.977 --> 00:13:35.258
why don't you use the money on somebody else?

360
00:13:35.578 --> 00:13:36.479
Buy a friend lunch,

361
00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:37.620
donate to a charity,

362
00:13:38.260 --> 00:13:43.384
very broadly thinking about what it means to give rather than focus on yourself.

363
00:13:44.124 --> 00:13:44.705
And there again,

364
00:13:44.745 --> 00:13:47.286
across lots and lots of correlational research,

365
00:13:47.306 --> 00:13:48.767
but also experimental research,

366
00:13:48.787 --> 00:13:49.468
we tend to see,

367
00:13:50.208 --> 00:13:50.549
again,

368
00:13:50.669 --> 00:13:52.350
spending on yourself doesn't just...

369
00:13:52.530 --> 00:13:53.491
It doesn't make you sad.

370
00:13:53.851 --> 00:13:55.833
It just doesn't do that much for you.

371
00:13:56.533 --> 00:13:57.574
And giving seems to,

372
00:13:57.674 --> 00:13:58.595
for more people,

373
00:13:58.675 --> 00:13:59.496
more of the time,

374
00:13:59.716 --> 00:14:01.017
result in a change in happiness.

375
00:14:01.738 --> 00:14:03.579
So I encourage our listeners,

376
00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:05.641
if they're interested to read

377
00:14:06.662 --> 00:14:07.303
Happy Money,

378
00:14:07.403 --> 00:14:10.325
they will learn a lot.

379
00:14:10.946 --> 00:14:11.526
But Mike,

380
00:14:11.566 --> 00:14:13.248
as I mentioned earlier,

381
00:14:13.408 --> 00:14:14.248
your recent book,

382
00:14:14.328 --> 00:14:16.030
The Ritual Effect,

383
00:14:16.530 --> 00:14:17.271
was published,

384
00:14:17.511 --> 00:14:18.492
I think it was in

385
00:14:19.073 --> 00:14:20.774
April 2024.

386
00:14:21.670 --> 00:14:25.472
And before we discuss precisely the content of it,

387
00:14:25.572 --> 00:14:30.254
can you tell us more about the inspiration behind writing it?

388
00:14:30.754 --> 00:14:33.596
How did the idea for the book come to you,

389
00:14:34.176 --> 00:14:42.159
especially because you share that at the beginning of your book that you were personally a ritual skeptic?

390
00:14:42.199 --> 00:14:43.560
I was very surprised.

391
00:14:44.260 --> 00:14:46.581
So it's interesting to think.

392
00:14:46.982 --> 00:14:47.642
I probably...

393
00:14:48.162 --> 00:14:50.988
It's about a decade of doing research on rituals now,

394
00:14:51.089 --> 00:14:51.710
something like that.

395
00:14:51.730 --> 00:14:52.672
Maybe a little more,

396
00:14:53.033 --> 00:14:54.015
but a long time,

397
00:14:54.055 --> 00:14:54.356
I guess,

398
00:14:54.396 --> 00:14:55.037
is my point.

399
00:14:55.719 --> 00:14:58.505
And I'd started studying rituals in a few projects,

400
00:14:58.645 --> 00:14:58.846
but...

401
00:15:00.202 --> 00:15:00.322
Um,

402
00:15:01.002 --> 00:15:05.183
really from the perspective of sort of people seem to do this a lot.

403
00:15:06.044 --> 00:15:06.764
What's going on?

404
00:15:06.784 --> 00:15:07.024
You know,

405
00:15:07.264 --> 00:15:08.004
why do they do it?

406
00:15:08.224 --> 00:15:09.965
What impact do they have on our emotions?

407
00:15:10.385 --> 00:15:12.425
But I wasn't really studying it as a,

408
00:15:12.806 --> 00:15:14.946
some research comes directly from yourself.

409
00:15:14.966 --> 00:15:15.226
You know,

410
00:15:15.226 --> 00:15:15.346
you,

411
00:15:15.906 --> 00:15:17.907
you notice yourself doing something and you say,

412
00:15:17.947 --> 00:15:18.367
my gosh,

413
00:15:18.407 --> 00:15:19.227
why did I do that?

414
00:15:19.687 --> 00:15:21.548
And then you have an idea for a research project.

415
00:15:22.048 --> 00:15:23.508
Rituals for me were not that.

416
00:15:23.729 --> 00:15:25.429
It wasn't I looked at myself and thought,

417
00:15:25.569 --> 00:15:26.469
why am I doing this?

418
00:15:26.969 --> 00:15:27.189
It was,

419
00:15:27.209 --> 00:15:28.750
I was looking at the world and saying,

420
00:15:28.770 --> 00:15:29.010
why?

421
00:15:29.210 --> 00:15:31.831
why are people doing this and then trying to study it.

422
00:15:32.971 --> 00:15:33.211
And then,

423
00:15:33.231 --> 00:15:33.771
as you mentioned,

424
00:15:34.151 --> 00:15:34.271
so

425
00:15:34.832 --> 00:15:35.392
10 years ago,

426
00:15:35.452 --> 00:15:36.912
we started the research on rituals.

427
00:15:37.412 --> 00:15:37.732
Eight years,

428
00:15:37.772 --> 00:15:38.913
almost nine years ago now,

429
00:15:38.953 --> 00:15:41.853
what happened was my wife and I had a daughter.

430
00:15:42.734 --> 00:15:46.475
And if anyone has ever had a daughter or son or whatever,

431
00:15:46.555 --> 00:15:48.375
you know that it's a big event in your life,

432
00:15:48.915 --> 00:15:49.616
very stressful,

433
00:15:49.736 --> 00:15:51.096
a lot of uncertainty,

434
00:15:51.656 --> 00:15:52.616
not sure what to do,

435
00:15:52.917 --> 00:15:54.877
not sure if you're doing a good job.

436
00:15:55.697 --> 00:15:58.038
And one of the things that we did

437
00:15:58.402 --> 00:15:59.423
We didn't sit down and say,

438
00:15:59.503 --> 00:16:01.525
let's develop a ritual that will probably help us.

439
00:16:01.685 --> 00:16:03.426
That's not usually how rituals happen.

440
00:16:04.027 --> 00:16:07.009
But when we were putting our daughter to bed and we wanted her to sleep,

441
00:16:07.770 --> 00:16:11.192
we started doing a very elaborate series of events.

442
00:16:11.853 --> 00:16:12.073
Like,

443
00:16:12.454 --> 00:16:13.915
read these specific books,

444
00:16:14.395 --> 00:16:15.796
then do these two songs,

445
00:16:16.217 --> 00:16:17.958
then we need these three stuffed animals,

446
00:16:18.038 --> 00:16:18.278
you know.

447
00:16:19.119 --> 00:16:19.419
Yes,

448
00:16:19.459 --> 00:16:20.400
the kiss or one,

449
00:16:20.580 --> 00:16:22.462
and people say one or two or three kisses.

450
00:16:22.482 --> 00:16:22.682
I mean,

451
00:16:22.702 --> 00:16:23.543
you know,

452
00:16:23.583 --> 00:16:24.323
when you leave the room,

453
00:16:24.323 --> 00:16:25.024
you blow a kiss.

454
00:16:25.064 --> 00:16:25.304
I mean,

455
00:16:25.444 --> 00:16:25.684
very,

456
00:16:25.784 --> 00:16:26.585
very specific,

457
00:16:26.705 --> 00:16:27.666
elaborate things.

458
00:16:28.374 --> 00:16:29.535
And it got more and more,

459
00:16:29.575 --> 00:16:29.775
you know,

460
00:16:29.755 --> 00:16:31.156
we kind of kept increasing it.

461
00:16:31.736 --> 00:16:32.697
If we missed a step,

462
00:16:32.857 --> 00:16:35.098
we would sometimes start over from the beginning.

463
00:16:35.719 --> 00:16:37.480
And if we couldn't find the stuffed animal,

464
00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:38.140
it was like panic.

465
00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:38.800
You know what I mean?

466
00:16:38.800 --> 00:16:38.921
No,

467
00:16:39.061 --> 00:16:39.341
this is,

468
00:16:39.601 --> 00:16:40.001
we're doomed.

469
00:16:40.682 --> 00:16:41.162
And I realized,

470
00:16:41.162 --> 00:16:41.442
of course,

471
00:16:41.462 --> 00:16:42.183
I realized at some point,

472
00:16:42.183 --> 00:16:42.563
my gosh,

473
00:16:42.623 --> 00:16:43.964
we just spontaneously,

474
00:16:44.104 --> 00:16:48.386
in the face of great uncertainty and stress about caring for our daughter,

475
00:16:49.107 --> 00:16:50.147
we came up with a ritual.

476
00:16:50.768 --> 00:16:52.069
Not a ritual that was,

477
00:16:52.189 --> 00:16:52.769
it's not in a

478
00:16:53.609 --> 00:16:54.290
3,000-year-old book.

479
00:16:54.890 --> 00:16:55.050
That,

480
00:16:55.070 --> 00:16:55.310
you know,

481
00:16:55.290 --> 00:16:58.732
it's these three songs and these two books and these three stuffed animals.

482
00:16:59.232 --> 00:17:03.053
Those rituals I hope we talk about are incredibly important in our lives as well.

483
00:17:03.614 --> 00:17:05.695
But these were ones that we just made up on the fly.

484
00:17:07.455 --> 00:17:09.396
We just looked around at what was in the environment.

485
00:17:09.436 --> 00:17:10.096
There was music,

486
00:17:10.337 --> 00:17:11.357
there were stuffed animals,

487
00:17:11.437 --> 00:17:12.037
there were books,

488
00:17:12.497 --> 00:17:13.298
there were blankets.

489
00:17:13.338 --> 00:17:13.818
And we thought,

490
00:17:14.118 --> 00:17:16.019
let's make some sequence with these,

491
00:17:16.159 --> 00:17:17.019
see if we can help her sleep.

492
00:17:17.780 --> 00:17:18.480
I think in the end,

493
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:20.421
we probably didn't help her sleep very much.

494
00:17:20.941 --> 00:17:21.661
But we actually,

495
00:17:21.741 --> 00:17:22.001
I think,

496
00:17:22.041 --> 00:17:23.102
helped ourselves.

497
00:17:23.578 --> 00:17:27.320
feel like we had some sense of control over a very stressful situation.

498
00:17:27.940 --> 00:17:28.481
And of course,

499
00:17:28.481 --> 00:17:29.661
if you ask other parents,

500
00:17:30.382 --> 00:17:32.383
did you do anything like this to help your kid?

501
00:17:32.383 --> 00:17:33.003
Of course,

502
00:17:33.063 --> 00:17:33.624
everybody says,

503
00:17:33.724 --> 00:17:34.144
oh my God.

504
00:17:34.484 --> 00:17:34.964
And in fact,

505
00:17:35.025 --> 00:17:39.307
I teach an undergraduate course of first-year students.

506
00:17:39.327 --> 00:17:40.508
They're 18 years old.

507
00:17:41.028 --> 00:17:47.432
And sometimes I ask them to interview their parents and ask them if they remember their nighttime ritual,

508
00:17:47.512 --> 00:17:48.392
their bedtime ritual.

509
00:17:49.072 --> 00:17:49.613
And first off,

510
00:17:49.633 --> 00:17:51.554
their parents remember it exactly.

511
00:17:52.414 --> 00:17:54.276
And they say they often get very emotional.

512
00:17:55.657 --> 00:17:55.777
And

513
00:17:56.217 --> 00:17:58.479
I think that really shows the power of it,

514
00:17:58.499 --> 00:17:58.699
right?

515
00:17:58.719 --> 00:18:00.741
Which is we use them when we really need them.

516
00:18:01.542 --> 00:18:10.889
And they have such emotional resonance for us sometimes that just remembering what it was like to have your six-month-old trying to sing these songs,

517
00:18:11.470 --> 00:18:16.054
it brings you back in such a powerful and almost visceral way.

518
00:18:16.754 --> 00:18:17.154
In a way,

519
00:18:17.194 --> 00:18:19.997
I think that looking at pictures doesn't quite do.

520
00:18:20.077 --> 00:18:20.317
You know,

521
00:18:20.297 --> 00:18:21.298
I think one of the things...

522
00:18:21.686 --> 00:18:22.306
Over time,

523
00:18:22.386 --> 00:18:29.308
I've learned about rituals is that they're really powerful memory triggerers for us in a way that's often very,

524
00:18:29.348 --> 00:18:30.328
very nice.

525
00:18:30.568 --> 00:18:32.529
It brings back things that we'd otherwise forget.

526
00:18:33.789 --> 00:18:35.370
Kind of Madeleine de Proust.

527
00:18:35.850 --> 00:18:36.070
Yes,

528
00:18:36.110 --> 00:18:36.510
exactly.

529
00:18:39.011 --> 00:18:39.251
Okay.

530
00:18:39.531 --> 00:18:40.451
So could you,

531
00:18:40.531 --> 00:18:41.891
you have started to do this,

532
00:18:41.971 --> 00:18:51.134
but could you define more precisely what you mean by a ritual and maybe specifically what is the difference between a ritual?

533
00:18:51.434 --> 00:18:52.695
and habits.

534
00:18:52.755 --> 00:18:55.456
We have interviewed some years ago,

535
00:18:55.596 --> 00:18:56.216
Wendy Wood,

536
00:18:56.516 --> 00:18:58.457
about this wonderful book,

537
00:18:58.557 --> 00:18:59.078
Good Habits,

538
00:18:59.118 --> 00:18:59.738
Bad Habits.

539
00:18:59.858 --> 00:19:03.800
So I would like to better understand the difference between ritual and habit.

540
00:19:04.380 --> 00:19:08.502
The first thing I want to say is that good habits are great.

541
00:19:10.183 --> 00:19:13.044
So when I juxtapose rituals and habits,

542
00:19:13.164 --> 00:19:17.106
what I'm not saying is habits are not good and rituals are good.

543
00:19:17.602 --> 00:19:17.942
We should,

544
00:19:18.143 --> 00:19:19.404
I wish I had better habits.

545
00:19:19.404 --> 00:19:20.785
We should all have good habits.

546
00:19:20.905 --> 00:19:26.629
The research on helping people to have better habits is amazing and incredibly important.

547
00:19:26.629 --> 00:19:27.290
So I was going to say,

548
00:19:27.991 --> 00:19:29.412
as a disclaimer right up front,

549
00:19:29.652 --> 00:19:33.535
it's not that habits aren't incredibly important for us to work on.

550
00:19:34.316 --> 00:19:35.777
I do think though with habits,

551
00:19:36.578 --> 00:19:36.818
you know,

552
00:19:36.798 --> 00:19:37.799
the point of habits,

553
00:19:37.879 --> 00:19:38.079
really,

554
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:38.980
when you look at the research,

555
00:19:39.080 --> 00:19:40.481
Wendy's research and others,

556
00:19:41.041 --> 00:19:42.623
is you want them to become automatic.

557
00:19:43.663 --> 00:19:44.144
You want to,

558
00:19:44.244 --> 00:19:44.444
you know,

559
00:19:44.444 --> 00:19:46.686
if you want to floss your teeth every day.

560
00:19:47.318 --> 00:19:49.924
What you want is the habit to become automatic,

561
00:19:49.964 --> 00:19:51.346
where you just do it thoughtlessly.

562
00:19:52.188 --> 00:19:53.210
Every time you brush your teeth,

563
00:19:53.210 --> 00:19:53.711
you floss.

564
00:19:53.851 --> 00:19:54.934
It's just part of the habit.

565
00:19:55.555 --> 00:19:57.960
And that means that you've probably developed the habit really well.

566
00:19:58.628 --> 00:19:58.968
And again,

567
00:19:58.988 --> 00:20:01.390
that's fantastic because we should all have healthy behaviors.

568
00:20:01.590 --> 00:20:12.159
But it's not clear that we want our days all to be kind of automated or on autopilot because it's a little bit emotionless and dry.

569
00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:12.760
You know,

570
00:20:12.760 --> 00:20:16.683
if you think of someone who had a life of perfect habits,

571
00:20:17.443 --> 00:20:17.664
you know,

572
00:20:17.664 --> 00:20:19.025
they always ate the right thing.

573
00:20:19.065 --> 00:20:20.606
They always exercise at this time.

574
00:20:20.626 --> 00:20:23.789
They always did all the things after whatever,

575
00:20:24.089 --> 00:20:24.769
40 years,

576
00:20:24.810 --> 00:20:26.971
they'd be very healthy for sure.

577
00:20:27.632 --> 00:20:27.752
But.

578
00:20:27.972 --> 00:20:31.694
would they have had kind of an emotionally rich,

579
00:20:32.034 --> 00:20:32.975
interesting life?

580
00:20:33.976 --> 00:20:34.236
Yeah,

581
00:20:34.636 --> 00:20:36.577
if they do the exact same thing every single day.

582
00:20:37.357 --> 00:20:39.399
And that's an unfair comparison,

583
00:20:39.439 --> 00:20:41.920
but that was on my mind to think,

584
00:20:42.360 --> 00:20:55.468
I wonder if partly what rituals do is they bump us out of the automation of everyday life and just going through the motions and turn things that are otherwise mundane into something more emotional.

585
00:20:55.608 --> 00:20:56.248
For many people,

586
00:20:56.268 --> 00:20:59.409
the example that comes to mind is their morning coffee or tea.

587
00:21:01.430 --> 00:21:01.830
Technically,

588
00:21:01.850 --> 00:21:03.290
you're just putting liquid in your mouth.

589
00:21:03.630 --> 00:21:03.851
You know,

590
00:21:03.831 --> 00:21:04.011
I mean,

591
00:21:03.991 --> 00:21:05.191
if we really break it down,

592
00:21:05.611 --> 00:21:06.671
it's not that interesting.

593
00:21:07.212 --> 00:21:08.112
But many people say,

594
00:21:08.652 --> 00:21:10.052
what I do with tea in the morning,

595
00:21:10.092 --> 00:21:12.153
and they have a very elaborate,

596
00:21:12.173 --> 00:21:19.675
specific thing that they've been doing for years with their tea or with their coffee or what they do with their spouse with coffee in the morning.

597
00:21:20.135 --> 00:21:21.856
They're taking just liquid in a cup.

598
00:21:22.772 --> 00:21:26.014
And they're turning it into something that has more meaning and emotion.

599
00:21:26.515 --> 00:21:26.955
And for me,

600
00:21:27.135 --> 00:21:30.998
that starts to be the difference between habits and rituals,

601
00:21:31.558 --> 00:21:37.042
is that rituals tend to have a bit more emotional resonance than habits,

602
00:21:37.062 --> 00:21:41.625
which again are supposed to be on autopilot and automatic if we're going to get them done.

603
00:21:42.285 --> 00:21:45.888
It is what you call emotion generators.

604
00:21:46.148 --> 00:21:46.268
Yeah,

605
00:21:46.328 --> 00:21:48.529
and there's lots of ways we generate emotions for sure.

606
00:21:50.051 --> 00:21:51.972
I think rituals are one that we see.

607
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:54.841
Across many domains of life,

608
00:21:55.161 --> 00:21:56.041
humans have,

609
00:21:56.181 --> 00:21:57.642
for thousands of years,

610
00:21:58.202 --> 00:22:02.544
turned to rituals as one of the ways to help manage and generate different emotions.

611
00:22:03.584 --> 00:22:03.804
Okay,

612
00:22:03.904 --> 00:22:04.205
Mike,

613
00:22:04.465 --> 00:22:19.751
now I would like to come into what you call do-it-yourself rituals and the relation with a very famous effect in behavioral science that you have identified some years ago,

614
00:22:19.791 --> 00:22:20.151
I think,

615
00:22:20.211 --> 00:22:22.652
with Dan Ariely and Daniel Mok.

616
00:22:22.752 --> 00:22:23.072
the

617
00:22:23.612 --> 00:22:24.513
Ikea effect.

618
00:22:25.613 --> 00:22:28.955
You also mentioned that there is a ritual effect,

619
00:22:28.995 --> 00:22:30.195
a ritual change.

620
00:22:31.116 --> 00:22:32.796
Can you tell us more about the

621
00:22:33.256 --> 00:22:38.479
Ikea effect and these consequences,

622
00:22:38.639 --> 00:22:39.719
ritual changes?

623
00:22:40.339 --> 00:22:43.081
So in the research on the

624
00:22:43.621 --> 00:22:44.421
Ikea effect,

625
00:22:45.602 --> 00:22:47.482
a very simple insight again,

626
00:22:47.542 --> 00:22:50.404
which was just you

627
00:22:51.264 --> 00:22:58.050
notice that you or people you know or your spouse or partner have things in the house that they made themselves,

628
00:22:58.170 --> 00:23:03.094
like a pot or a mug or a watercolor or a bookshelf or something,

629
00:23:03.855 --> 00:23:06.317
and they insist on keeping it with them their entire life.

630
00:23:07.438 --> 00:23:08.278
And it's ugly.

631
00:23:08.999 --> 00:23:09.299
It's just,

632
00:23:09.619 --> 00:23:10.040
it's just,

633
00:23:10.460 --> 00:23:11.141
it's not good.

634
00:23:11.761 --> 00:23:12.582
And the question was like,

635
00:23:12.582 --> 00:23:12.702
well,

636
00:23:12.702 --> 00:23:13.563
why do we have,

637
00:23:13.683 --> 00:23:14.403
and I have one too,

638
00:23:14.403 --> 00:23:15.684
I'm not pointing fingers at anybody,

639
00:23:15.804 --> 00:23:18.607
why do we have these things that really aren't that good,

640
00:23:18.667 --> 00:23:19.828
but that we made?

641
00:23:20.460 --> 00:23:21.881
And we value them really highly.

642
00:23:22.321 --> 00:23:23.821
And that was the initial thing,

643
00:23:23.861 --> 00:23:24.922
which is what's going on there.

644
00:23:25.682 --> 00:23:27.083
And what we see in the experiments,

645
00:23:27.083 --> 00:23:27.523
of course,

646
00:23:27.523 --> 00:23:29.944
is that when you put effort into making something,

647
00:23:30.484 --> 00:23:37.067
you imbue it with more value than the market believes it has,

648
00:23:37.267 --> 00:23:37.627
I guess,

649
00:23:37.707 --> 00:23:38.227
in a sense.

650
00:23:38.327 --> 00:23:39.468
So earlier in my career,

651
00:23:40.088 --> 00:23:41.409
I probably would have described the

652
00:23:41.969 --> 00:23:43.970
IKEA effect as kind of like a mistake.

653
00:23:44.570 --> 00:23:45.050
In other words,

654
00:23:45.070 --> 00:23:47.551
like I'm overvaluing the thing that I made,

655
00:23:48.111 --> 00:23:49.792
but the world knows it's worthless.

656
00:23:50.488 --> 00:23:51.869
So I'm off,

657
00:23:52.149 --> 00:23:52.409
you know.

658
00:23:53.330 --> 00:23:54.030
The older I get,

659
00:23:54.090 --> 00:23:54.250
though,

660
00:23:54.250 --> 00:23:56.151
the more I think it's kind of amazing.

661
00:23:56.351 --> 00:23:56.912
It's a gift,

662
00:23:56.992 --> 00:23:57.252
really,

663
00:23:57.372 --> 00:23:59.693
that when we invest ourselves in things,

664
00:24:00.213 --> 00:24:02.895
we can come to see them as really special and valuable.

665
00:24:03.555 --> 00:24:04.076
Because again,

666
00:24:04.076 --> 00:24:06.077
it means we can take really boring things,

667
00:24:06.597 --> 00:24:08.098
like clay or wood,

668
00:24:08.878 --> 00:24:11.780
and turn them into something that really has a lot of meaning for us.

669
00:24:11.860 --> 00:24:14.241
So I think I've changed over time on the,

670
00:24:14.882 --> 00:24:16.262
is it a mistake or is it a gift?

671
00:24:16.923 --> 00:24:19.104
And thinking of the same thing with...

672
00:24:19.344 --> 00:24:19.904
rituals,

673
00:24:20.024 --> 00:24:20.264
you know,

674
00:24:20.584 --> 00:24:24.285
in the way that you can buy products that are pre-made and still love them,

675
00:24:25.026 --> 00:24:27.426
you can also use rituals that are pre-made.

676
00:24:27.726 --> 00:24:30.787
You can use rituals with thousands of years of history.

677
00:24:30.927 --> 00:24:31.387
And of course,

678
00:24:31.387 --> 00:24:33.128
we use them all the time.

679
00:24:33.208 --> 00:24:35.469
And they're incredibly important in our lives.

680
00:24:35.529 --> 00:24:35.769
You know,

681
00:24:35.849 --> 00:24:36.349
weddings,

682
00:24:36.869 --> 00:24:37.529
funerals,

683
00:24:37.869 --> 00:24:38.689
birthday parties,

684
00:24:38.769 --> 00:24:39.450
anniversaries,

685
00:24:39.490 --> 00:24:42.771
these are all things that have come down through the generations,

686
00:24:43.791 --> 00:24:44.831
sometimes through religion,

687
00:24:44.931 --> 00:24:46.031
sometimes through culture,

688
00:24:46.432 --> 00:24:47.752
sometimes from our families.

689
00:24:48.336 --> 00:24:53.541
but they have a deep history and we perform them the same way that they've been performed on purpose.

690
00:24:54.863 --> 00:24:55.363
However,

691
00:24:55.664 --> 00:24:59.668
we also started to see in the research that people were doing those for sure.

692
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.681
And they were doing other stuff.

693
00:25:03.081 --> 00:25:04.061
They were freelancing.

694
00:25:04.361 --> 00:25:07.462
They were coming up with things on the fly all the time.

695
00:25:08.302 --> 00:25:09.202
So when we ask people,

696
00:25:10.623 --> 00:25:11.423
what's a good example?

697
00:25:12.083 --> 00:25:16.565
We asked people in romantic relationships about their rituals.

698
00:25:17.385 --> 00:25:17.965
And they say,

699
00:25:18.705 --> 00:25:18.845
well,

700
00:25:18.845 --> 00:25:19.105
you know,

701
00:25:19.425 --> 00:25:20.326
we had a wedding.

702
00:25:20.846 --> 00:25:23.526
And then every year we celebrate our anniversary.

703
00:25:23.907 --> 00:25:26.427
And in some countries,

704
00:25:26.427 --> 00:25:27.247
Valentine's Day.

705
00:25:27.428 --> 00:25:27.688
You know,

706
00:25:27.688 --> 00:25:27.948
of course,

707
00:25:27.948 --> 00:25:28.928
we go out for Valentine's Day.

708
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:31.601
So they do those rituals for sure.

709
00:25:31.841 --> 00:25:32.322
But then we said,

710
00:25:32.322 --> 00:25:41.127
is there anything else that the two of you do that's special to you and unique to the two of you and has a lot of meaning and you make sure to do it every so often?

711
00:25:42.267 --> 00:25:44.669
And then people told us not about Valentine's Day,

712
00:25:44.749 --> 00:25:49.031
but about little tiny behaviors that the two of them had generated themselves.

713
00:25:49.631 --> 00:25:50.392
My favorite one,

714
00:25:50.412 --> 00:25:51.372
I don't know why ever,

715
00:25:51.452 --> 00:25:53.153
was a couple that said,

716
00:25:53.594 --> 00:25:54.914
every time before we eat,

717
00:25:54.995 --> 00:25:56.575
we clink our silverware together.

718
00:25:57.796 --> 00:25:58.997
I think it resonates in part.

719
00:25:59.057 --> 00:25:59.357
First off,

720
00:25:59.377 --> 00:26:03.059
there's no 3000 year old text that says clink your silverware.

721
00:26:03.059 --> 00:26:03.279
You know,

722
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:04.580
they're not drawing on history.

723
00:26:05.361 --> 00:26:06.741
They came up with it themselves.

724
00:26:06.861 --> 00:26:11.844
And I think I love it because few things are more boring or utilitarian than a fork.

725
00:26:12.265 --> 00:26:12.505
I mean,

726
00:26:12.505 --> 00:26:15.146
the whole point of a fork is just to stab and put it in your mouth.

727
00:26:15.887 --> 00:26:19.249
And they can turn it into something else about their relationship.

728
00:26:19.809 --> 00:26:22.130
And that's the DIY aspect of them,

729
00:26:22.250 --> 00:26:22.611
I think.

730
00:26:22.731 --> 00:26:23.371
For sure,

731
00:26:23.511 --> 00:26:24.672
we all use

732
00:26:25.092 --> 00:26:29.055
established traditional rituals at very important points in our life.

733
00:26:29.796 --> 00:26:34.380
But we also do these other kind that we very often come up with ourselves.

734
00:26:35.041 --> 00:26:35.801
And that again,

735
00:26:35.881 --> 00:26:38.223
got all the way back to the kind of spending money,

736
00:26:39.084 --> 00:26:40.065
not just looking at,

737
00:26:40.885 --> 00:26:41.106
you know,

738
00:26:41.106 --> 00:26:42.547
your income and things like that.

739
00:26:42.587 --> 00:26:44.388
But what do you do on a daily basis?

740
00:26:44.989 --> 00:26:49.733
It's a bit the same with rituals where we have the huge ones that play a huge role in our lives.

741
00:26:50.233 --> 00:26:51.174
But under the surface,

742
00:26:51.194 --> 00:26:52.976
we also have these little ones that we do.

743
00:26:53.520 --> 00:26:55.281
Every day or every week or every month.

744
00:26:55.421 --> 00:26:58.123
And we just wondered what role are those playing?

745
00:26:58.644 --> 00:26:59.644
Why do we use them?

746
00:26:59.744 --> 00:27:00.585
When do we use them?

747
00:27:00.645 --> 00:27:02.986
And then what effect do they have on our emotions?

748
00:27:03.487 --> 00:27:10.471
And what I think is absolutely critical is what you call the ritual effect,

749
00:27:11.152 --> 00:27:12.933
meaning ritual changes.

750
00:27:13.053 --> 00:27:14.774
Could you tell us more about this?

751
00:27:15.595 --> 00:27:19.037
So people who are ritual skeptics,

752
00:27:19.317 --> 00:27:19.638
let's say,

753
00:27:19.658 --> 00:27:20.258
and there are many,

754
00:27:21.159 --> 00:27:21.759
who will say,

755
00:27:21.999 --> 00:27:23.100
I don't do anything like that.

756
00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:23.460
You know,

757
00:27:23.460 --> 00:27:23.760
I don't,

758
00:27:24.620 --> 00:27:24.941
that's not,

759
00:27:25.001 --> 00:27:25.621
that's not something I do.

760
00:27:26.181 --> 00:27:26.421
And so,

761
00:27:26.461 --> 00:27:26.981
but I can ask,

762
00:27:26.981 --> 00:27:27.201
you know,

763
00:27:27.241 --> 00:27:27.401
like,

764
00:27:27.401 --> 00:27:32.983
have you ever made a cake and frosted it very carefully and it's beautiful.

765
00:27:33.983 --> 00:27:35.464
And then before you serve the cake,

766
00:27:35.484 --> 00:27:41.866
you stick wax candles in the cake and light them on fire so that wax drips all over the cake.

767
00:27:42.446 --> 00:27:48.828
And then put the cake in front of somebody who probably has like the flu and have them blow all over the cake to blow the thing out.

768
00:27:48.828 --> 00:27:49.868
And then there's smoke and then.

769
00:27:50.224 --> 00:27:52.845
And then everybody eats the cake with wax and germ,

770
00:27:52.865 --> 00:27:53.085
you know,

771
00:27:53.545 --> 00:27:54.225
I'm exaggerating.

772
00:27:54.445 --> 00:27:54.805
But of course,

773
00:27:54.825 --> 00:27:55.166
people say,

774
00:27:55.166 --> 00:27:55.226
oh,

775
00:27:55.226 --> 00:27:55.346
yeah,

776
00:27:55.346 --> 00:27:55.466
no,

777
00:27:55.506 --> 00:27:56.306
that's a birthday cake.

778
00:27:57.526 --> 00:27:57.966
And I say,

779
00:27:58.647 --> 00:27:58.827
what?

780
00:27:58.827 --> 00:27:59.087
You know,

781
00:27:59.407 --> 00:28:00.647
tell me about that experience.

782
00:28:00.667 --> 00:28:00.887
They say,

783
00:28:00.907 --> 00:28:01.027
well,

784
00:28:01.027 --> 00:28:01.267
you know,

785
00:28:01.267 --> 00:28:02.628
you sing and everybody's happy.

786
00:28:02.748 --> 00:28:05.109
And it's a way to wish the person,

787
00:28:05.189 --> 00:28:05.429
you know,

788
00:28:05.489 --> 00:28:07.549
good luck in their next year and celebrate them.

789
00:28:07.589 --> 00:28:08.029
And I say,

790
00:28:08.490 --> 00:28:08.610
yeah,

791
00:28:08.670 --> 00:28:09.650
that's what rituals are.

792
00:28:09.990 --> 00:28:10.550
So so,

793
00:28:10.570 --> 00:28:10.870
you know,

794
00:28:11.490 --> 00:28:13.411
if you think about the role they play in our lives,

795
00:28:13.771 --> 00:28:16.272
another one in every culture has a cheers.

796
00:28:17.933 --> 00:28:18.513
In Gaelic,

797
00:28:18.513 --> 00:28:19.053
it's sláinte,

798
00:28:19.093 --> 00:28:19.334
you know,

799
00:28:19.474 --> 00:28:19.994
it has a,

800
00:28:20.314 --> 00:28:21.335
you take liquid in a cup,

801
00:28:21.836 --> 00:28:22.816
everybody raises it up,

802
00:28:23.016 --> 00:28:23.757
clinks it together,

803
00:28:23.837 --> 00:28:24.478
and then drinks.

804
00:28:25.058 --> 00:28:28.200
There's no practical reason to raise your glass and clink it.

805
00:28:28.721 --> 00:28:29.541
It doesn't improve the,

806
00:28:29.621 --> 00:28:29.862
you know,

807
00:28:29.882 --> 00:28:30.262
whatever.

808
00:28:30.742 --> 00:28:33.024
But we do it because it's a bonding experience,

809
00:28:33.184 --> 00:28:35.506
and we're all saying good luck and health to each other.

810
00:28:36.427 --> 00:28:38.908
And so those kinds of rituals,

811
00:28:38.928 --> 00:28:39.089
again,

812
00:28:39.109 --> 00:28:39.989
they're very small.

813
00:28:40.149 --> 00:28:42.811
It's not like you clink glasses and your life is changed forever.

814
00:28:42.851 --> 00:28:43.552
Of course not.

815
00:28:44.572 --> 00:28:46.913
But they change the experience in the group as well.

816
00:28:47.013 --> 00:28:50.035
And you take a cake or liquid in a glass,

817
00:28:50.736 --> 00:28:51.216
and again,

818
00:28:51.256 --> 00:28:54.077
you can turn it into something that's more than that.

819
00:28:54.598 --> 00:28:54.938
And that,

820
00:28:54.958 --> 00:28:55.258
I think,

821
00:28:55.278 --> 00:28:58.360
is what's so special for me about these kinds of rituals.

822
00:28:58.580 --> 00:29:02.542
The little ones that we come up with is that they take mundane things,

823
00:29:02.982 --> 00:29:08.105
and we're very creative in using the things in our environment to actually imbue them with more.

824
00:29:09.266 --> 00:29:09.926
And again,

825
00:29:09.986 --> 00:29:12.208
with emotion at the earth of this.

826
00:29:13.188 --> 00:29:13.528
For you,

827
00:29:13.608 --> 00:29:19.411
what are the primary psychological benefits of rituals?

828
00:29:20.251 --> 00:29:22.432
It seems in many rituals,

829
00:29:22.492 --> 00:29:23.993
but not all rituals,

830
00:29:24.733 --> 00:29:28.494
one of the underlying features is control.

831
00:29:29.575 --> 00:29:33.877
That when we feel uncertainty or we feel out of control,

832
00:29:34.617 --> 00:29:35.297
humans have,

833
00:29:35.317 --> 00:29:35.597
again,

834
00:29:35.817 --> 00:29:37.418
for thousands of years,

835
00:29:37.598 --> 00:29:42.020
turned to different types of rituals to re-exert a feeling of control.

836
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:44.943
Not all rituals are about control,

837
00:29:45.243 --> 00:29:49.108
but many of them have some feature like that.

838
00:29:49.688 --> 00:29:50.650
And it seems to be,

839
00:29:51.190 --> 00:29:51.451
again,

840
00:29:51.571 --> 00:29:53.814
if we feel uncertain and out of control,

841
00:29:53.834 --> 00:29:56.517
there's lots of things that we do to try to feel control.

842
00:29:57.112 --> 00:29:58.533
But one of them is,

843
00:29:58.713 --> 00:29:59.033
I think,

844
00:29:59.073 --> 00:30:00.194
this turn to ritual.

845
00:30:01.975 --> 00:30:03.736
Maybe my favorite research ever,

846
00:30:03.836 --> 00:30:04.156
actually,

847
00:30:04.296 --> 00:30:04.496
is

848
00:30:04.917 --> 00:30:05.557
B.F. Skinner,

849
00:30:05.637 --> 00:30:07.018
who people may know.

850
00:30:07.058 --> 00:30:12.161
He's a psychologist who studied rewards and behaviorism.

851
00:30:12.421 --> 00:30:13.461
And he was very interested in,

852
00:30:13.441 --> 00:30:13.722
you know,

853
00:30:14.222 --> 00:30:19.885
how do you incentivize pigeons to peck a button three times in order to get food?

854
00:30:19.945 --> 00:30:20.065
And,

855
00:30:20.225 --> 00:30:20.465
you know,

856
00:30:20.505 --> 00:30:21.146
very learning,

857
00:30:21.206 --> 00:30:23.747
very mechanical model of how to train.

858
00:30:25.004 --> 00:30:25.625
people to behave,

859
00:30:25.865 --> 00:30:26.245
pigeons,

860
00:30:26.245 --> 00:30:26.605
I guess,

861
00:30:26.605 --> 00:30:27.646
to behave in a certain way.

862
00:30:28.407 --> 00:30:29.608
Very super useful research,

863
00:30:29.648 --> 00:30:30.569
fascinating research.

864
00:30:30.649 --> 00:30:33.131
But he did this one version of that where,

865
00:30:33.731 --> 00:30:34.772
so usually what happens is,

866
00:30:34.772 --> 00:30:35.032
you know,

867
00:30:35.993 --> 00:30:40.837
they're called Skinner boxes and it's like a box that has buttons and levers and stuff like that.

868
00:30:41.438 --> 00:30:44.901
And if a pigeon figures out the correct sequence,

869
00:30:44.961 --> 00:30:47.623
like press the lever twice and peck the button,

870
00:30:47.663 --> 00:30:48.424
the food comes.

871
00:30:49.224 --> 00:30:49.805
So the question is,

872
00:30:49.785 --> 00:30:53.468
how long does it take them to learn the pattern and then the food comes and they get good at it?

873
00:30:54.336 --> 00:30:55.417
In this particular thing,

874
00:30:55.437 --> 00:30:58.299
what he did was he just had the food come completely randomly,

875
00:30:59.140 --> 00:31:02.062
independent of what the pigeons were pecking on the Skinner box.

876
00:31:03.643 --> 00:31:06.105
So what pigeons should do is nothing.

877
00:31:07.246 --> 00:31:07.626
In other words,

878
00:31:07.606 --> 00:31:09.787
as soon as you learn that the food's just coming randomly,

879
00:31:09.787 --> 00:31:11.969
you should just sit back and wait for the food.

880
00:31:12.970 --> 00:31:13.350
And of course,

881
00:31:13.350 --> 00:31:14.811
that's not at all what pigeons do.

882
00:31:14.891 --> 00:31:18.054
What they do is they keep pecking and pressing things.

883
00:31:18.474 --> 00:31:21.116
And what he says is that they came up with...

884
00:31:21.856 --> 00:31:24.918
an idiosyncratic sequence of behaviors that,

885
00:31:24.998 --> 00:31:25.158
well,

886
00:31:25.158 --> 00:31:25.338
you know,

887
00:31:25.358 --> 00:31:27.260
this pigeon was bob the head twice,

888
00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:28.701
peck that button twice,

889
00:31:28.741 --> 00:31:29.421
peck that lever.

890
00:31:29.941 --> 00:31:32.403
But the pigeon in the next room was doing,

891
00:31:32.763 --> 00:31:33.004
you know,

892
00:31:33.064 --> 00:31:34.304
bob the head six times,

893
00:31:34.765 --> 00:31:35.926
peck the lever nine times.

894
00:31:36.506 --> 00:31:37.627
And then they kept doing it.

895
00:31:38.647 --> 00:31:39.568
And so what's going on?

896
00:31:39.548 --> 00:31:41.289
So there's so many fascinating things about this,

897
00:31:41.369 --> 00:31:41.749
obviously.

898
00:31:42.330 --> 00:31:46.493
One is in the face of truly uncertainty and lack of control,

899
00:31:47.133 --> 00:31:48.154
we don't say,

900
00:31:48.454 --> 00:31:48.594
well,

901
00:31:48.614 --> 00:31:49.415
there's nothing we can do.

902
00:31:50.115 --> 00:31:50.475
We say,

903
00:31:50.555 --> 00:31:51.396
I'm still going to try.

904
00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:53.321
I got to do something to get some control.

905
00:31:53.821 --> 00:31:54.321
Exactly.

906
00:31:54.881 --> 00:31:57.903
And it's not that we land on the same thing.

907
00:31:58.723 --> 00:32:00.464
It's not as though faced with these situations,

908
00:32:00.584 --> 00:32:01.344
everybody says,

909
00:32:01.464 --> 00:32:01.644
aha,

910
00:32:02.225 --> 00:32:03.145
it's three head nods.

911
00:32:03.945 --> 00:32:08.687
It's that each pigeon comes up with their own idiosyncratic way of trying.

912
00:32:08.947 --> 00:32:09.187
I mean,

913
00:32:09.288 --> 00:32:11.829
I'm projecting that the pigeons were trying to feel control.

914
00:32:11.909 --> 00:32:12.329
Obviously,

915
00:32:12.389 --> 00:32:14.070
it's a metaphor in some sense.

916
00:32:14.550 --> 00:32:14.910
And yet,

917
00:32:14.930 --> 00:32:17.711
if pigeons are doing this to try to feel control,

918
00:32:18.371 --> 00:32:18.792
of course,

919
00:32:18.792 --> 00:32:19.632
you could imagine that.

920
00:32:20.232 --> 00:32:22.693
When humans are faced with that kind of uncertainty as well,

921
00:32:23.233 --> 00:32:28.674
we also might engage in some ritualistic behavior to try again to get that sense of control back.

922
00:32:30.115 --> 00:32:30.455
Mike,

923
00:32:30.535 --> 00:32:39.157
now I'd like to get into the details and start talking about ritual for ourself.

924
00:32:39.757 --> 00:32:41.298
You mentioned that athletes,

925
00:32:41.898 --> 00:32:43.458
and we have some in mind,

926
00:32:43.518 --> 00:32:49.500
and other high performers use rituals to boost their performance.

927
00:32:49.948 --> 00:32:53.772
And could you share first some examples?

928
00:32:55.133 --> 00:32:55.393
You know,

929
00:32:55.854 --> 00:32:58.556
if you want to waste an entire day of your life,

930
00:32:59.297 --> 00:33:03.841
type in athletes'names or singers'names or musicians,

931
00:33:04.442 --> 00:33:05.163
any celebrity,

932
00:33:05.423 --> 00:33:06.844
and then type the word ritual,

933
00:33:07.385 --> 00:33:08.266
and then click search.

934
00:33:09.407 --> 00:33:14.632
And it is just extraordinary how many of these high performers have something.

935
00:33:15.520 --> 00:33:18.502
Very specific and idiosyncratic that they do before they...

936
00:33:18.642 --> 00:33:20.923
But Nadal is the king of rituals.

937
00:33:21.543 --> 00:33:22.064
Exactly.

938
00:33:22.964 --> 00:33:24.005
Nadal is my favorite.

939
00:33:24.765 --> 00:33:25.385
And he's actually,

940
00:33:26.346 --> 00:33:28.547
if I show his ritual,

941
00:33:29.087 --> 00:33:29.968
people in the audience say,

942
00:33:30.028 --> 00:33:30.588
that's Nadal.

943
00:33:30.988 --> 00:33:31.269
I mean,

944
00:33:31.449 --> 00:33:33.030
it's so part of who he is.

945
00:33:33.090 --> 00:33:34.650
But before his serve,

946
00:33:34.650 --> 00:33:37.392
he has a very elaborate sequence of things that he does,

947
00:33:37.912 --> 00:33:41.094
including he picks his wedgie before every serve.

948
00:33:41.094 --> 00:33:41.334
You know,

949
00:33:41.574 --> 00:33:42.214
his shorts are...

950
00:33:42.515 --> 00:33:44.115
And the question is,

951
00:33:44.155 --> 00:33:44.936
what's going on?

952
00:33:45.584 --> 00:34:00.691
you know if all of these people are doing this stuff before high stakes performances why why are they doing them and what's so interesting is if you if you ask them um so nadal and specifically actually gets asked a lot what

953
00:34:00.691 --> 00:34:12.736
are you doing why do you do this crazy thing before every serve and he'll say things like uh you know look i know i don't need to do it but when i do it i feel like i'm ready to go

954
00:34:14.496 --> 00:34:16.657
And I think that's a very interesting psychology.

955
00:34:16.777 --> 00:34:17.917
And unfortunately,

956
00:34:17.917 --> 00:34:21.059
it's not the case that if I copy Nadal's pre-serve routine,

957
00:34:21.579 --> 00:34:23.100
I'm now magically as good as him.

958
00:34:23.200 --> 00:34:23.600
You know,

959
00:34:23.620 --> 00:34:26.121
I wish that's how rituals work,

960
00:34:26.261 --> 00:34:27.361
but they just don't,

961
00:34:27.421 --> 00:34:27.661
right?

962
00:34:28.242 --> 00:34:28.442
They,

963
00:34:28.702 --> 00:34:29.022
I think,

964
00:34:29.062 --> 00:34:30.463
can affect our emotions.

965
00:34:30.863 --> 00:34:31.103
You know,

966
00:34:31.343 --> 00:34:33.064
he's saying that he feels,

967
00:34:33.224 --> 00:34:33.984
after he does it,

968
00:34:34.464 --> 00:34:35.545
like he can go do it.

969
00:34:36.005 --> 00:34:38.166
And that's what many of these performers say,

970
00:34:38.226 --> 00:34:38.506
is that,

971
00:34:39.306 --> 00:34:42.327
of course I could go on stage without doing this thing before,

972
00:34:42.707 --> 00:34:44.048
and I'm sure it would be fine.

973
00:34:44.336 --> 00:34:44.577
you know,

974
00:34:44.637 --> 00:34:48.144
I'm still Keith Richards or Serena Williams or whoever I am,

975
00:34:48.925 --> 00:34:49.226
but

976
00:34:49.807 --> 00:34:55.900
I'm going to turn to them in this moment of stress and uncertainty so that I feel psychologically like I'm ready to go.

977
00:34:56.840 --> 00:34:57.941
And for us,

978
00:34:58.041 --> 00:34:58.982
for normal people,

979
00:35:00.183 --> 00:35:04.587
what can we learn from these high-performance rituals?

980
00:35:05.408 --> 00:35:05.768
It's funny,

981
00:35:05.808 --> 00:35:06.629
if you ask people,

982
00:35:07.790 --> 00:35:08.250
people will say,

983
00:35:08.310 --> 00:35:08.470
wow,

984
00:35:08.490 --> 00:35:09.251
that's really crazy,

985
00:35:09.311 --> 00:35:09.531
you know,

986
00:35:09.571 --> 00:35:11.253
that thing that Nadal does or whatever.

987
00:35:11.893 --> 00:35:12.814
And then if you ask people,

988
00:35:13.214 --> 00:35:13.635
have you ever,

989
00:35:13.655 --> 00:35:13.895
you know,

990
00:35:13.895 --> 00:35:18.219
what do you do if you have a big meeting at work or you have to give a presentation at work?

991
00:35:18.219 --> 00:35:21.462
Is there anything you do beforehand to get ready?

992
00:35:22.482 --> 00:35:23.103
And people say,

993
00:35:23.123 --> 00:35:24.144
you know.

994
00:35:25.340 --> 00:35:26.320
Reasonable things like,

995
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:26.440
well,

996
00:35:26.460 --> 00:35:29.321
I make sure I have all my materials ready to go and things like that.

997
00:35:29.581 --> 00:35:33.042
But an astonishingly high number of people,

998
00:35:33.102 --> 00:35:33.983
given how crazy it is,

999
00:35:34.023 --> 00:35:34.503
will say,

1000
00:35:35.623 --> 00:35:38.684
what I do is I go into the bathroom at work.

1001
00:35:39.404 --> 00:35:42.125
I look around under the stalls to make sure nobody else is in there.

1002
00:35:42.765 --> 00:35:44.226
And then I talk to myself in the mirror.

1003
00:35:45.766 --> 00:35:46.466
It's very common.

1004
00:35:46.846 --> 00:35:47.927
And many people will say,

1005
00:35:48.447 --> 00:35:49.287
I don't do it every time,

1006
00:35:49.287 --> 00:35:50.107
but I have done that.

1007
00:35:50.608 --> 00:35:50.808
You know,

1008
00:35:50.808 --> 00:35:51.748
at least once in my life,

1009
00:35:51.788 --> 00:35:51.908
I...

1010
00:35:52.108 --> 00:35:53.629
I looked at myself in a mirror and said,

1011
00:35:54.049 --> 00:35:54.630
you can do this.

1012
00:35:54.690 --> 00:35:55.350
You've got this.

1013
00:35:55.971 --> 00:35:57.752
And on the one hand,

1014
00:35:57.912 --> 00:35:58.572
that's crazy.

1015
00:35:59.173 --> 00:35:59.413
You know,

1016
00:35:59.933 --> 00:36:02.075
who are we talking to when we say you've got this?

1017
00:36:02.895 --> 00:36:03.456
On the other hand,

1018
00:36:03.496 --> 00:36:04.216
compared to what?

1019
00:36:04.817 --> 00:36:05.057
You know,

1020
00:36:05.057 --> 00:36:07.358
there's lots of ways to try to manage anxiety.

1021
00:36:07.358 --> 00:36:07.619
We can,

1022
00:36:07.699 --> 00:36:08.039
of course,

1023
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:08.899
take medication.

1024
00:36:09.380 --> 00:36:10.380
We can have therapy.

1025
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:10.601
You know,

1026
00:36:10.601 --> 00:36:11.921
there's lots of effective ways.

1027
00:36:12.482 --> 00:36:12.902
But again,

1028
00:36:13.182 --> 00:36:18.406
one of the things that people turn to in these situations is some kind of a ritual.

1029
00:36:19.006 --> 00:36:19.346
And again,

1030
00:36:19.366 --> 00:36:19.687
they say,

1031
00:36:19.707 --> 00:36:21.008
it just makes me feel like I'm,

1032
00:36:21.328 --> 00:36:21.448
I'm.

1033
00:36:21.648 --> 00:36:25.430
I'm readier to face the meeting after I do my little ritual.

1034
00:36:25.971 --> 00:36:26.471
And by the way,

1035
00:36:26.471 --> 00:36:28.032
they also say if they get interrupted,

1036
00:36:28.172 --> 00:36:29.092
they feel less ready.

1037
00:36:29.813 --> 00:36:30.893
So it isn't just that,

1038
00:36:30.893 --> 00:36:31.154
you know,

1039
00:36:31.394 --> 00:36:34.215
add rituals everywhere in your life and your life's going to be amazing.

1040
00:36:34.355 --> 00:36:35.176
I wish that were true.

1041
00:36:35.296 --> 00:36:36.597
That's not how they work at all.

1042
00:36:37.457 --> 00:36:38.978
It's a kind of a risk and reward thing,

1043
00:36:39.078 --> 00:36:39.218
right?

1044
00:36:39.218 --> 00:36:40.919
If you can get it done the way you like,

1045
00:36:41.219 --> 00:36:41.780
people say,

1046
00:36:41.1000 --> 00:36:42.680
I feel good.

1047
00:36:43.341 --> 00:36:45.082
But if you can't get it done the way you like,

1048
00:36:45.122 --> 00:36:45.602
people say,

1049
00:36:45.702 --> 00:36:45.962
actually,

1050
00:36:45.982 --> 00:36:48.063
now I'm going to feel off for the entire time.

1051
00:36:48.123 --> 00:36:48.884
So they're almost like a...

1052
00:36:49.484 --> 00:37:11.050
in a weird they're always going to provoke emotion but sometimes it might be positive and sometimes it actually might be negative i hope we can talk more about that as well because they're often rituals are in the service of feeling a positive emotion but they often also are related to producing negative emotions as well it's not that they're just good it's that they're emotional across

1053
00:37:11.110 --> 00:37:17.472
the wide spectrum of the emotions that we experience there is a also a top

1054
00:37:17.732 --> 00:37:27.279
which I think is interesting is how do rituals influence our capacity for self-control and daily discipline?

1055
00:37:28.340 --> 00:37:28.920
If you look,

1056
00:37:29.861 --> 00:37:33.023
one of the fun things about honestly studying rituals is,

1057
00:37:33.023 --> 00:37:33.383
of course,

1058
00:37:33.403 --> 00:37:35.505
that people,

1059
00:37:35.645 --> 00:37:38.867
humans have been studying them for years and documenting them for years.

1060
00:37:39.508 --> 00:37:40.568
So you can look back,

1061
00:37:41.209 --> 00:37:41.449
you know,

1062
00:37:41.709 --> 00:37:45.732
literally to the first writings that exist that we have from humans.

1063
00:37:46.020 --> 00:37:47.141
And there's already rituals in them,

1064
00:37:47.141 --> 00:37:47.901
like Gilgamesh.

1065
00:37:48.962 --> 00:37:53.044
A big part of Gilgamesh is he's already making ritualistic sacrifices to the gods.

1066
00:37:53.484 --> 00:37:58.267
So we have this kind of extraordinary history of human rituals.

1067
00:37:59.148 --> 00:38:04.111
And one of the things that you see is that they're often associated with extreme acts of self-control.

1068
00:38:04.751 --> 00:38:05.872
So religious rituals,

1069
00:38:05.892 --> 00:38:06.452
for example,

1070
00:38:06.472 --> 00:38:13.196
when you see people praying for six days straight or standing for an incredibly long period of time.

1071
00:38:13.956 --> 00:38:18.499
Very often that kind of self-control is paired with ritualistic behavior.

1072
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:19.799
Now,

1073
00:38:20.179 --> 00:38:20.720
can we say,

1074
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:21.300
therefore,

1075
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:24.722
that it's just the ritual that's allowing them to do this?

1076
00:38:24.722 --> 00:38:25.222
Of course not.

1077
00:38:25.262 --> 00:38:27.663
There's many things that determine our behavior.

1078
00:38:28.304 --> 00:38:29.685
But we very,

1079
00:38:29.725 --> 00:38:31.025
very often see these links,

1080
00:38:31.466 --> 00:38:32.746
almost like natural links,

1081
00:38:32.826 --> 00:38:36.708
between this behavior and this type of ritual in the world.

1082
00:38:37.889 --> 00:38:38.149
Now,

1083
00:38:38.950 --> 00:38:43.352
I would like to speak about another key topic in your book.

1084
00:38:43.712 --> 00:38:48.135
rituals in social relationships.

1085
00:38:49.675 --> 00:38:55.979
Can you tell us how can rituals help solidify our connection with others?

1086
00:38:56.119 --> 00:39:01.722
And we know from the science of happiness that connection with others is something quite important.

1087
00:39:02.362 --> 00:39:05.764
We did this project a few years ago.

1088
00:39:06.945 --> 00:39:07.065
So

1089
00:39:07.505 --> 00:39:11.908
I'll say one of the fun things about studying rituals is it's almost like a

1090
00:39:12.940 --> 00:39:14.021
When we started studying it,

1091
00:39:14.041 --> 00:39:17.063
we would go talk to somebody and they would say,

1092
00:39:17.083 --> 00:39:17.203
hey,

1093
00:39:17.203 --> 00:39:18.844
have you ever looked at rituals in this domain?

1094
00:39:19.344 --> 00:39:19.705
We would say,

1095
00:39:19.685 --> 00:39:19.905
oh no,

1096
00:39:19.925 --> 00:39:20.405
we haven't.

1097
00:39:20.445 --> 00:39:22.226
And then we'd do a project on that domain.

1098
00:39:22.767 --> 00:39:23.867
And then we'd talk to somebody else and they'd say,

1099
00:39:23.847 --> 00:39:23.967
hey,

1100
00:39:23.967 --> 00:39:25.248
did you ever look at rituals in this domain?

1101
00:39:25.248 --> 00:39:25.548
We'd say,

1102
00:39:25.548 --> 00:39:25.649
no,

1103
00:39:25.629 --> 00:39:26.049
we haven't.

1104
00:39:26.049 --> 00:39:26.809
And we'd do it over there.

1105
00:39:27.170 --> 00:39:30.632
It's a very fun and generative topic because they're so ubiquitous.

1106
00:39:31.112 --> 00:39:32.793
But one of the things we did was people said,

1107
00:39:32.793 --> 00:39:32.873
hey,

1108
00:39:32.873 --> 00:39:34.555
have you ever done family rituals?

1109
00:39:34.915 --> 00:39:36.016
What's up with family rituals?

1110
00:39:36.316 --> 00:39:39.698
And it's very salient now because the holidays are upon us,

1111
00:39:40.198 --> 00:39:42.380
which is a big stressor for many people.

1112
00:39:42.500 --> 00:39:42.640
But

1113
00:39:42.940 --> 00:39:43.281
family.

1114
00:39:43.321 --> 00:39:44.363
And,

1115
00:39:44.944 --> 00:39:45.164
you know,

1116
00:39:45.144 --> 00:39:45.886
we can ask people,

1117
00:39:47.789 --> 00:39:51.055
let's say one of the studies we did was specifically for people who celebrate Christmas.

1118
00:39:51.095 --> 00:39:51.596
So we said,

1119
00:39:52.097 --> 00:39:54.982
do you and your family do anything for Christmas that's...

1120
00:39:55.606 --> 00:39:57.527
special to your family that's unique,

1121
00:39:57.888 --> 00:39:59.369
that you make sure to do every year?

1122
00:39:59.469 --> 00:39:59.869
We don't say,

1123
00:39:59.869 --> 00:40:00.750
do you have a ritual?

1124
00:40:00.750 --> 00:40:01.990
Because people think,

1125
00:40:02.371 --> 00:40:02.611
you know,

1126
00:40:02.651 --> 00:40:05.053
people in robes with candles type of thing.

1127
00:40:05.513 --> 00:40:06.894
But we ask them these other questions.

1128
00:40:07.414 --> 00:40:07.995
And many,

1129
00:40:08.055 --> 00:40:08.995
many families will say,

1130
00:40:09.035 --> 00:40:09.175
yes,

1131
00:40:09.235 --> 00:40:09.516
we do.

1132
00:40:10.276 --> 00:40:11.537
And then we ask them questions like,

1133
00:40:11.537 --> 00:40:11.657
well,

1134
00:40:11.717 --> 00:40:13.238
do you gather every year?

1135
00:40:13.819 --> 00:40:15.860
Or do you not gather every year as a family?

1136
00:40:16.120 --> 00:40:19.262
And how much do you enjoy the time with your family?

1137
00:40:19.943 --> 00:40:20.663
And again,

1138
00:40:20.683 --> 00:40:23.785
this is correlational because we can't randomly assign people to families,

1139
00:40:24.286 --> 00:40:24.526
you know.

1140
00:40:24.766 --> 00:40:25.346
I wish we could,

1141
00:40:25.366 --> 00:40:25.846
but we can't.

1142
00:40:26.327 --> 00:40:27.107
But correlationally,

1143
00:40:27.127 --> 00:40:29.768
what you see is when people say my family has a ritual,

1144
00:40:30.548 --> 00:40:36.251
they're more likely to report also that they continue to get together and that they like the day better.

1145
00:40:36.931 --> 00:40:37.091
Now,

1146
00:40:37.171 --> 00:40:37.391
again,

1147
00:40:37.431 --> 00:40:41.053
maybe people who like their family develop rituals and that's the causal direction.

1148
00:40:41.073 --> 00:40:41.693
We don't know.

1149
00:40:42.333 --> 00:40:44.594
But as a signal of your family,

1150
00:40:45.234 --> 00:40:47.555
it is the case that if you have a ritual,

1151
00:40:48.256 --> 00:40:54.118
I can predict much better whether you're actually going to get on a plane and fly home to see your parents.

1152
00:40:54.538 --> 00:40:54.898
or not.

1153
00:40:55.379 --> 00:40:56.439
So there you see this,

1154
00:40:57.740 --> 00:40:59.241
they serve almost like as a glue,

1155
00:40:59.481 --> 00:40:59.741
as a,

1156
00:41:00.661 --> 00:41:02.282
you don't have to see your family every day,

1157
00:41:02.322 --> 00:41:03.263
you're not required to,

1158
00:41:03.843 --> 00:41:06.184
but you are supposed to see them on these days.

1159
00:41:06.565 --> 00:41:14.469
And it is one of the ways that families stay intact is actually by these almost culturally forcing mechanisms to say,

1160
00:41:14.509 --> 00:41:16.950
go see your mom and dad once a year.

1161
00:41:17.551 --> 00:41:18.231
And otherwise,

1162
00:41:18.271 --> 00:41:21.933
sometimes we might not see our families at all because life just gets very busy.

1163
00:41:22.373 --> 00:41:22.833
So there,

1164
00:41:23.314 --> 00:41:23.754
um,

1165
00:41:24.038 --> 00:41:24.598
On the one hand,

1166
00:41:24.658 --> 00:41:25.859
it's decorating a tree.

1167
00:41:26.219 --> 00:41:26.839
Who cares?

1168
00:41:27.259 --> 00:41:27.900
On the other hand,

1169
00:41:27.900 --> 00:41:33.902
they play this really central role in families continuing to be families over time.

1170
00:41:36.443 --> 00:41:44.466
There is also social ritual which can help in difficult times like grief.

1171
00:41:46.807 --> 00:41:52.790
What role do rituals play in helping us process and manage this?

1172
00:41:53.486 --> 00:42:15.438
tough situation grief was one of the examples where um a great example of where we asked people about rituals and when we asked couples they said you know uh weddings and valentine's day and things when we ask people about grief you know think of somebody that um you were close to who you lost what did what did you do of

1173
00:42:15.478 --> 00:42:22.902
course people say funerals you know they'll whatever their faith dictates they'll say for one day two days five days we did this

1174
00:42:23.978 --> 00:42:25.399
And then that's over.

1175
00:42:26.599 --> 00:42:28.500
And then you're kind of supposed to go back to life.

1176
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:31.001
And I wish grief worked that way,

1177
00:42:31.301 --> 00:42:31.561
you know,

1178
00:42:31.601 --> 00:42:35.103
that you could just have a funeral and then feel better about the loss.

1179
00:42:35.503 --> 00:42:36.063
Unfortunately,

1180
00:42:36.083 --> 00:42:38.024
as anybody who's experienced grief knows,

1181
00:42:38.044 --> 00:42:39.204
that's not how it works at all.

1182
00:42:39.845 --> 00:42:43.306
So what do we do for the rest of the days when we're still grieving?

1183
00:42:43.866 --> 00:42:44.287
What do we do?

1184
00:42:44.387 --> 00:42:44.847
And of course,

1185
00:42:45.007 --> 00:42:45.427
of course,

1186
00:42:45.447 --> 00:42:47.728
we do things like seek out social support,

1187
00:42:48.308 --> 00:42:49.569
seek out therapy if we need it.

1188
00:42:49.549 --> 00:42:49.729
You know,

1189
00:42:49.729 --> 00:42:50.089
there's many,

1190
00:42:50.169 --> 00:42:52.510
many good things that we should do when we're grieving.

1191
00:42:53.062 --> 00:42:58.205
But one of the things that people told us is that they came up with their own little idiosyncratic ways of honoring the person.

1192
00:42:59.205 --> 00:43:00.926
One woman that sticks with me said,

1193
00:43:02.387 --> 00:43:04.849
I wash his car every weekend the way he used to.

1194
00:43:05.669 --> 00:43:08.331
And you can tell exactly what's going on right away.

1195
00:43:09.091 --> 00:43:09.911
And on the one hand,

1196
00:43:09.991 --> 00:43:11.852
why would you wash your car that you're not driving?

1197
00:43:12.413 --> 00:43:13.253
And on the other hand,

1198
00:43:13.473 --> 00:43:13.894
clearly,

1199
00:43:14.334 --> 00:43:16.735
we don't know a lot about it because this is just a survey.

1200
00:43:17.215 --> 00:43:21.498
But you can feel that he probably loved this car and washed it every weekend.

1201
00:43:22.070 --> 00:43:22.870
He passed away.

1202
00:43:23.110 --> 00:43:27.992
She decided that one way to honor him was to continue to wash the car the way that he did.

1203
00:43:28.672 --> 00:43:33.293
There is no ancient text that says wash a car after somebody passes away.

1204
00:43:33.393 --> 00:43:34.374
There weren't even cars.

1205
00:43:34.634 --> 00:43:37.975
So we know that these are ones that people have come up with themselves.

1206
00:43:38.455 --> 00:43:42.176
And yet you can feel how important and emotionally resonant they are.

1207
00:43:44.056 --> 00:43:44.517
Mike,

1208
00:43:45.237 --> 00:43:46.577
at BVN Consulting,

1209
00:43:46.597 --> 00:43:49.378
we are working quite a lot for...

1210
00:43:49.818 --> 00:43:51.940
public and private organization.

1211
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:56.323
And your work on ritual is also about ritual at work,

1212
00:43:57.023 --> 00:44:02.627
which is also very interesting for a large part of our audience.

1213
00:44:02.707 --> 00:44:08.991
Could you tell us why are rituals so valuable in a professional context,

1214
00:44:09.752 --> 00:44:11.033
especially for time,

1215
00:44:11.233 --> 00:44:11.993
team spirit?

1216
00:44:13.655 --> 00:44:14.115
For sure.

1217
00:44:14.195 --> 00:44:18.398
It's funny because if you ask teams at work about rituals,

1218
00:44:19.150 --> 00:44:24.053
What they think of initially are things that the company or their manager made them do.

1219
00:44:25.815 --> 00:44:27.516
Like their worst managers,

1220
00:44:27.516 --> 00:44:27.796
they say,

1221
00:44:28.957 --> 00:44:36.202
my manager is one of these people who watches a TED talk or listens to a podcast over the weekend and then comes in on Monday morning and says,

1222
00:44:36.222 --> 00:44:39.524
now we're going to do this thing like this and nobody wants to do it.

1223
00:44:40.224 --> 00:44:44.467
And so the initial feeling on rituals at work is quite negative,

1224
00:44:44.547 --> 00:44:44.747
right?

1225
00:44:44.747 --> 00:44:48.490
Which is these people are always telling us to do this stuff and we don't want to do it.

1226
00:44:49.126 --> 00:44:51.049
But when we ask teams at work,

1227
00:44:51.730 --> 00:44:52.672
not about those,

1228
00:44:52.672 --> 00:44:53.173
but we say,

1229
00:44:53.353 --> 00:44:53.553
again,

1230
00:44:53.894 --> 00:44:54.775
exact same question,

1231
00:44:54.835 --> 00:44:55.116
actually,

1232
00:44:55.136 --> 00:44:56.718
as we ask couples or families.

1233
00:44:57.159 --> 00:44:58.922
Is there anything that you do as a team?

1234
00:44:59.494 --> 00:45:00.795
That's unique to your team.

1235
00:45:01.055 --> 00:45:06.157
That's special to you that you make sure to do every day or every week or regularly.

1236
00:45:06.997 --> 00:45:07.797
Lots of teams say,

1237
00:45:07.797 --> 00:45:08.498
you know what there is,

1238
00:45:09.258 --> 00:45:11.639
and they don't tell us about the kind that were mandated.

1239
00:45:12.139 --> 00:45:14.440
They tell us about ones that they came up with themselves.

1240
00:45:14.940 --> 00:45:15.400
One team,

1241
00:45:15.761 --> 00:45:16.521
and they're very simple,

1242
00:45:16.521 --> 00:45:17.101
but one team,

1243
00:45:19.202 --> 00:45:22.223
their ritual was each week on one day of the week,

1244
00:45:23.084 --> 00:45:25.344
I would get lunch for everybody else.

1245
00:45:25.985 --> 00:45:27.205
And then on every other day of the week,

1246
00:45:27.265 --> 00:45:29.046
someone else would get lunch for everybody else.

1247
00:45:29.850 --> 00:45:30.910
So it's just lunch.

1248
00:45:31.231 --> 00:45:31.451
You know,

1249
00:45:31.431 --> 00:45:32.031
we're going to eat lunch.

1250
00:45:32.071 --> 00:45:32.691
It's just lunch.

1251
00:45:32.791 --> 00:45:35.632
But what this team is doing is on one day of the week,

1252
00:45:35.792 --> 00:45:37.333
I take care of everyone on the team.

1253
00:45:37.993 --> 00:45:38.994
And every other day of the week,

1254
00:45:39.014 --> 00:45:40.194
the team takes care of me.

1255
00:45:41.415 --> 00:45:41.915
They're taking,

1256
00:45:42.295 --> 00:45:42.515
again,

1257
00:45:42.555 --> 00:45:47.037
it's like they're taking sandwiches and turning them into something that has more meaning.

1258
00:45:47.597 --> 00:45:52.299
And those kinds of rituals we see are correlated with the meaning you feel at work.

1259
00:45:53.140 --> 00:45:53.340
Again,

1260
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:56.741
there's lots of things that determine your sense of meaning at work.

1261
00:45:57.161 --> 00:45:58.542
But one of them seems to be

1262
00:45:59.346 --> 00:46:00.627
This feeling that we have,

1263
00:46:00.767 --> 00:46:03.308
that when we have these meaningful rituals with our teams,

1264
00:46:03.749 --> 00:46:06.870
we see the work that we're doing with those teams as more meaningful as well.

1265
00:46:07.871 --> 00:46:15.776
And could you share with us some of the keys to successful workplace rituals?

1266
00:46:16.916 --> 00:46:21.939
So what I do when I work with companies on rituals is what they want is kind of a,

1267
00:46:22.860 --> 00:46:23.620
I give them one.

1268
00:46:23.860 --> 00:46:24.100
You know,

1269
00:46:24.100 --> 00:46:26.942
like science has shown that if employees do this.

1270
00:46:28.162 --> 00:46:30.704
seven claps and nine stomps and yell this,

1271
00:46:31.285 --> 00:46:32.206
then everything will be great.

1272
00:46:33.146 --> 00:46:37.831
And that's almost never how rituals work because they're so idiosyncratic.

1273
00:46:38.591 --> 00:46:47.259
So what we do instead is we give teams time to think about what they already do and think about if they want to develop something else on their team as well.

1274
00:46:47.819 --> 00:46:55.466
And I give very little guidance on purpose to the teams because I want them to generate it and have ownership over it.

1275
00:46:56.590 --> 00:47:01.074
It's not always the case that the company loves that because they kind of want standardization,

1276
00:47:01.314 --> 00:47:01.574
you know,

1277
00:47:01.594 --> 00:47:03.616
and how long it's going to last and all that kind of thing.

1278
00:47:04.316 --> 00:47:08.200
But those often lead to reactants instead of positive feelings.

1279
00:47:08.580 --> 00:47:15.266
So it's interesting that there's a tension between what I think are rituals that really resonate with people,

1280
00:47:15.326 --> 00:47:17.367
which are the ones that they come up with themselves,

1281
00:47:18.008 --> 00:47:19.189
and a desire to have,

1282
00:47:19.209 --> 00:47:19.589
of course,

1283
00:47:19.629 --> 00:47:20.230
some kind of,

1284
00:47:20.850 --> 00:47:23.232
can't we all just do it Friday at two o'clock so that,

1285
00:47:23.252 --> 00:47:23.532
you know,

1286
00:47:23.732 --> 00:47:24.733
we all are on the same page.

1287
00:47:25.814 --> 00:47:31.136
which is a kind of bottom-up ritual versus top-down rituals.

1288
00:47:31.997 --> 00:47:36.158
We have seen that social rituals can help to foster team spirit,

1289
00:47:36.299 --> 00:47:39.920
but also it can contribute to division.

1290
00:47:40.080 --> 00:47:42.041
Could you tell us more about this?

1291
00:47:42.721 --> 00:47:43.942
I'm glad you asked because,

1292
00:47:43.962 --> 00:47:44.342
again,

1293
00:47:44.782 --> 00:47:51.385
this is a case where rituals can have positive effects and a case where rituals can have negative effects as well.

1294
00:47:51.625 --> 00:47:52.605
They're,

1295
00:47:52.645 --> 00:47:52.906
again,

1296
00:47:53.006 --> 00:47:53.686
not just...

1297
00:47:54.254 --> 00:47:55.495
More rituals is always better.

1298
00:47:55.595 --> 00:47:58.657
So in the same way we see that with teams,

1299
00:47:58.817 --> 00:48:01.059
if they have rituals,

1300
00:48:01.579 --> 00:48:03.841
that they tend to find more meaning in their work,

1301
00:48:03.881 --> 00:48:05.842
but also trust each other a bit more.

1302
00:48:06.202 --> 00:48:07.063
And we do experiments,

1303
00:48:07.063 --> 00:48:07.223
you know,

1304
00:48:07.203 --> 00:48:12.166
we can randomly assign people to teams and have them do rituals or not and measure their trust.

1305
00:48:13.147 --> 00:48:13.667
And we can see,

1306
00:48:13.707 --> 00:48:14.088
in fact,

1307
00:48:14.108 --> 00:48:17.250
that doing a ritual with your team can increase trust.

1308
00:48:17.810 --> 00:48:18.210
However,

1309
00:48:18.311 --> 00:48:19.471
we can also then say,

1310
00:48:19.952 --> 00:48:20.072
hey,

1311
00:48:20.152 --> 00:48:23.274
look at this other team who does a different ritual.

1312
00:48:23.634 --> 00:48:24.435
How do you feel about them?

1313
00:48:25.655 --> 00:48:29.037
And what happens is people who do rituals that are different from ours,

1314
00:48:29.037 --> 00:48:32.059
we punish them because they're doing it wrong.

1315
00:48:33.240 --> 00:48:34.881
And I think that really is the key,

1316
00:48:35.161 --> 00:48:38.503
is that if you're doing a ritual and you think it's good,

1317
00:48:39.663 --> 00:48:40.084
we're great.

1318
00:48:41.224 --> 00:48:43.285
If you're doing a ritual and you think it's correct,

1319
00:48:44.246 --> 00:48:44.886
that's trouble.

1320
00:48:45.707 --> 00:48:48.068
Because if my way is correct,

1321
00:48:48.268 --> 00:48:51.010
obviously every other way is incorrect.

1322
00:48:51.654 --> 00:48:53.315
And that's when we start to get conflict.

1323
00:48:53.575 --> 00:48:55.617
And it's true in romantic relationships,

1324
00:48:55.797 --> 00:48:56.938
and it's true culturally,

1325
00:48:57.538 --> 00:49:00.840
that if our way of doing this is the right way to do the ritual,

1326
00:49:01.461 --> 00:49:01.781
then

1327
00:49:02.181 --> 00:49:04.943
I have to make other people do it my way as well.

1328
00:49:05.463 --> 00:49:09.106
And so we see wonderful benefits of group cohesion,

1329
00:49:09.826 --> 00:49:13.989
but they can also come paired with dislike of other groups who are,

1330
00:49:14.249 --> 00:49:14.549
again,

1331
00:49:14.710 --> 00:49:15.130
in quotes,

1332
00:49:15.210 --> 00:49:17.611
doing it wrong because we're doing it right.

1333
00:49:18.872 --> 00:49:21.174
And any thought on what...

1334
00:49:21.294 --> 00:49:24.756
type of solution we can use to reduce division?

1335
00:49:24.976 --> 00:49:25.516
Extremely.

1336
00:49:25.897 --> 00:49:27.017
Which is a big topic,

1337
00:49:27.097 --> 00:49:27.577
I think,

1338
00:49:27.898 --> 00:49:29.258
in the world right now.

1339
00:49:29.919 --> 00:49:30.739
If I knew that answer,

1340
00:49:30.779 --> 00:49:31.320
I would be so,

1341
00:49:31.640 --> 00:49:32.200
so happy.

1342
00:49:33.741 --> 00:49:34.121
I think,

1343
00:49:35.262 --> 00:49:35.942
not our research,

1344
00:49:35.982 --> 00:49:37.043
but other people's research,

1345
00:49:37.083 --> 00:49:43.466
I think really points to the importance of thinking about cross-cutting ties.

1346
00:49:44.547 --> 00:49:47.688
So if I think about my political beliefs,

1347
00:49:47.869 --> 00:49:50.350
and then I find out someone else has different political beliefs.

1348
00:49:51.034 --> 00:49:51.534
I'm on the,

1349
00:49:52.135 --> 00:49:53.336
I'm correct and you're incorrect.

1350
00:49:53.356 --> 00:49:54.216
You must be terrible.

1351
00:49:54.496 --> 00:49:54.957
And of course,

1352
00:49:54.957 --> 00:49:56.197
they're thinking the same thing about me.

1353
00:49:57.058 --> 00:49:58.799
But cross-cutting ties can be,

1354
00:49:58.879 --> 00:49:59.139
you know,

1355
00:49:59.299 --> 00:50:00.020
we're both from...

1356
00:50:01.513 --> 00:50:02.113
California,

1357
00:50:02.714 --> 00:50:04.255
or we both really like hockey,

1358
00:50:04.595 --> 00:50:05.656
or whatever it might be,

1359
00:50:05.756 --> 00:50:08.519
that we have these different social connections.

1360
00:50:09.160 --> 00:50:13.143
And then that starts to make it more complicated in a sense,

1361
00:50:13.163 --> 00:50:14.705
but complicated in a good way,

1362
00:50:15.205 --> 00:50:18.568
which is it's not the only difference between us is not just this.

1363
00:50:19.068 --> 00:50:19.909
We have other differences.

1364
00:50:19.909 --> 00:50:21.110
We have other similarities.

1365
00:50:21.511 --> 00:50:24.974
And the research shows that when you encourage people to look for those,

1366
00:50:25.494 --> 00:50:27.256
it can reduce a little bit.

1367
00:50:27.792 --> 00:50:33.375
the feelings that they have when they just think of somebody else as the opposite of them on one particular dimension.

1368
00:50:35.056 --> 00:50:35.376
Mike,

1369
00:50:35.396 --> 00:50:39.138
we are now unfortunately close to the end of our conversation,

1370
00:50:39.258 --> 00:50:39.438
but

1371
00:50:40.139 --> 00:50:43.401
I'd like to ask you two final questions.

1372
00:50:43.821 --> 00:50:44.121
First,

1373
00:50:44.181 --> 00:50:46.222
as an expert in behavioral science,

1374
00:50:46.242 --> 00:50:46.782
and second,

1375
00:50:46.843 --> 00:50:49.444
as an expert in science of happiness.

1376
00:50:49.884 --> 00:50:50.424
So first,

1377
00:50:50.685 --> 00:50:54.587
how do you see the future of behavioral science?

1378
00:50:54.667 --> 00:50:56.828
Do you have any fears and hopes?

1379
00:50:58.269 --> 00:50:59.469
that you would like to share?

1380
00:51:00.950 --> 00:51:11.274
I think one very positive development is testing things at scale and testing things in the world to see...

1381
00:51:11.975 --> 00:51:13.495
Laboratory experiments are amazing.

1382
00:51:13.595 --> 00:51:17.657
They can tell us so much about how humans work and how the mind works and everything.

1383
00:51:18.317 --> 00:51:20.638
But if we want to then bring it out to the world,

1384
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:22.539
we have to go test it in many,

1385
00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:24.120
many contexts to see when it works.

1386
00:51:24.440 --> 00:51:25.141
and when it doesn't.

1387
00:51:25.321 --> 00:51:26.582
You mentioned Katie Milkman,

1388
00:51:26.662 --> 00:51:26.802
who's,

1389
00:51:26.822 --> 00:51:27.302
of course,

1390
00:51:27.883 --> 00:51:28.684
leading on.

1391
00:51:29.384 --> 00:51:29.844
Exactly.

1392
00:51:30.045 --> 00:51:30.985
It's a great example.

1393
00:51:32.367 --> 00:51:33.447
Leading these mega studies,

1394
00:51:33.467 --> 00:51:33.668
you know,

1395
00:51:33.688 --> 00:51:41.194
where you test many interventions across many different places and really try to get a sense of what actually matters in the real world.

1396
00:51:42.034 --> 00:51:42.575
And other people,

1397
00:51:42.575 --> 00:51:42.955
of course,

1398
00:51:43.035 --> 00:51:47.219
doing things like meta-analyses of big literature.

1399
00:51:47.319 --> 00:51:50.421
Meta-analyses have some limitations to them as well.

1400
00:51:50.461 --> 00:51:50.802
But again,

1401
00:51:50.862 --> 00:51:53.384
trying to look across a body of knowledge.

1402
00:51:53.824 --> 00:51:56.225
To say what seems to be the regularities in that,

1403
00:51:56.585 --> 00:51:58.406
that I think is something that used to be much,

1404
00:51:58.486 --> 00:51:59.366
much harder to do.

1405
00:52:00.267 --> 00:52:01.687
And now it's a bit easier to do.

1406
00:52:01.687 --> 00:52:02.508
It's still very hard to do,

1407
00:52:02.628 --> 00:52:03.828
but a little bit easier to do.

1408
00:52:04.469 --> 00:52:07.690
And those are the kinds of things that I think are very exciting.

1409
00:52:07.710 --> 00:52:08.070
It's like,

1410
00:52:09.671 --> 00:52:11.772
let's find out of all the insights we have,

1411
00:52:12.272 --> 00:52:16.274
which are the ones that play out the biggest out in the real world.

1412
00:52:17.174 --> 00:52:17.434
Okay,

1413
00:52:17.594 --> 00:52:18.195
thanks a lot.

1414
00:52:18.775 --> 00:52:20.876
And now as an expert in the science of...

1415
00:52:21.216 --> 00:52:23.638
happiness that I like very much.

1416
00:52:24.459 --> 00:52:28.742
What research terms do you find most interesting to explore?

1417
00:52:29.502 --> 00:52:31.244
That have not already been explored.

1418
00:52:31.704 --> 00:52:32.384
Yeah.

1419
00:52:32.404 --> 00:52:36.427
Or to confirm previous results.

1420
00:52:37.508 --> 00:52:40.851
I'll shout out my colleague here,

1421
00:52:40.951 --> 00:52:41.751
Ashley Willans,

1422
00:52:42.312 --> 00:52:44.694
who does research on how to spend your time.

1423
00:52:45.354 --> 00:52:47.416
And she did some work.

1424
00:52:47.900 --> 00:52:48.701
She did some work with

1425
00:52:49.221 --> 00:52:52.203
Liz Dunn and I when she was a graduate student.

1426
00:52:52.263 --> 00:52:54.684
But the question she's asking,

1427
00:52:55.104 --> 00:52:56.085
and it's such a great question,

1428
00:52:56.165 --> 00:52:56.325
is,

1429
00:52:57.086 --> 00:53:01.328
we're experts in humans or happiness or whatever.

1430
00:53:01.728 --> 00:53:02.409
If somebody says,

1431
00:53:02.469 --> 00:53:02.589
hey,

1432
00:53:02.609 --> 00:53:03.970
how should I spend my time today?

1433
00:53:05.511 --> 00:53:05.971
We could say,

1434
00:53:06.051 --> 00:53:06.171
oh,

1435
00:53:06.251 --> 00:53:08.172
spend some of it with family and friends.

1436
00:53:08.653 --> 00:53:09.193
And people say,

1437
00:53:09.233 --> 00:53:09.653
how much?

1438
00:53:11.314 --> 00:53:11.614
I mean,

1439
00:53:11.614 --> 00:53:12.475
there's some really basic,

1440
00:53:12.615 --> 00:53:13.776
is it better to spend time with?

1441
00:53:14.556 --> 00:53:16.357
Two acquaintances or one close friend?

1442
00:53:16.817 --> 00:53:17.037
Very,

1443
00:53:17.097 --> 00:53:21.740
very basic questions about how we use our time that we know some things about.

1444
00:53:22.300 --> 00:53:24.281
But it's it's every day when we get up,

1445
00:53:24.402 --> 00:53:25.562
that's the decision we're making,

1446
00:53:25.622 --> 00:53:25.782
right?

1447
00:53:25.802 --> 00:53:27.603
Is how am I going to use my time today?

1448
00:53:28.284 --> 00:53:31.986
I think all of the researchers and others that's happening in that domain,

1449
00:53:32.466 --> 00:53:34.887
I just always find completely fascinating.

1450
00:53:35.588 --> 00:53:35.888
Again,

1451
00:53:35.948 --> 00:53:39.650
because it's this everyday kind,

1452
00:53:39.650 --> 00:53:39.890
you know,

1453
00:53:39.910 --> 00:53:42.932
what should you do today to change your happiness over the course of today?

1454
00:53:43.988 --> 00:53:44.568
Thanks a lot,

1455
00:53:44.749 --> 00:53:45.109
Mike.

1456
00:53:45.109 --> 00:53:47.770
It was a fascinating conversation,

1457
00:53:47.910 --> 00:53:53.573
and I am sure that our audience will be very happy to learn from you.

1458
00:53:54.594 --> 00:53:54.914
Mike,

1459
00:53:54.954 --> 00:54:03.178
is there anything you would like to leave our listeners with where they can find more about you and your work,

1460
00:54:03.519 --> 00:54:06.640
maybe website or LinkedIn or I don't know?

1461
00:54:07.301 --> 00:54:08.661
My website is very boring.

1462
00:54:08.782 --> 00:54:09.362
I'll warn you.

1463
00:54:09.522 --> 00:54:13.184
And it's also boring because it's just it's literally Michael Norton dot com.

1464
00:54:13.684 --> 00:54:16.665
The only interesting thing on it is we developed a quiz,

1465
00:54:16.705 --> 00:54:17.666
a rituals quiz.

1466
00:54:19.146 --> 00:54:20.247
There's a link that says quiz,

1467
00:54:20.307 --> 00:54:20.707
I'm sure.

1468
00:54:20.887 --> 00:54:23.368
And it's just a brief quiz that you can take.

1469
00:54:23.388 --> 00:54:26.229
And it kind of asks you about rituals in different domains of life.

1470
00:54:26.890 --> 00:54:31.312
And it's kind of fun to go through and see where you're doing them and where you're not.

1471
00:54:31.872 --> 00:54:37.134
It also can be fun to have your spouse or partner do it as well and kind of compare across them.

1472
00:54:38.095 --> 00:54:39.875
Just to get a quick sense of...

1473
00:54:41.752 --> 00:54:42.593
Where they're already happening,

1474
00:54:42.633 --> 00:54:43.814
where you might want to try them out,

1475
00:54:44.094 --> 00:54:47.537
and whether you and your spouse are aligned on what you're up to.

1476
00:54:48.758 --> 00:54:48.998
Okay.

1477
00:54:49.578 --> 00:54:51.320
Thanks a lot again,

1478
00:54:51.420 --> 00:54:51.820
Mike.

1479
00:54:52.060 --> 00:54:52.380
Thank you.

1480
00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:53.221
It's great to chat.

1481
00:54:53.842 --> 00:54:54.402
Be Good,

1482
00:54:54.682 --> 00:54:56.884
a podcast by the BVA Nudge Unit.