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At some of these global meetings that I have attended,

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you know,

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I've heard people from Africa leaders saying that,

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you know,

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we have to push for yields and increase in productivity at any cost because Africa has very low yields and productivity.

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That's a reason for famines.

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That's a reason for hunger.

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And they're all pushing in the direction of industrial farming practices or conventional farming practices.

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And you can't blame them because it's true.

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When we look at the global distribution of fertilizer and pesticide,

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Africa actually is using very little.

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So you can't blame them for wanting to increase.

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You know,

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you can't,

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we can't say to them sitting in the global north that no,

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you should not do this.

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But at the same time,

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they will follow the same cycle then if they get into that track.

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And they are at a point when they are not yet using.

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So this is a very good moment.

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for you know states and governments to say that no don't go down that track let's show a different pathway yeah for sustainability because they don't have to reverse anything yet

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On this podcast,

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we talk a lot about the future of farming and food,

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about regenerative agriculture,

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but mostly from the perspective of

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Western countries and Europe.

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But today we're going to turn the focus more on the global south,

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in particular India,

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right?

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Yes.

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Maybe to start with,

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you could tell us a little bit about the big differences in the food system and agricultural system between

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Europe and India.

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Yeah,

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so I think the big difference

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differences I think are in terms of how we conceptualize of a farmer,

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the scale of farming.

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So when we look typically at Europe or the UK,

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you know,

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farms are quite large.

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I mean,

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even though here they are considered as small farms,

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but something like 100 hectares or 200 hectares would be a very large farm anywhere in the global south.

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So we're really talking about one hectare,

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two hectare,

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three hectares,

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less than five hectares,

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where 90%

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of the farmers

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own less than five hectares of land.

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So farming as an enterprise then has a very different meaning.

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It's both subsistence,

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but it's also their main livelihood.

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And they have to make do with very small plots of land,

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and often with very little resources.

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So I think when we think about,

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for a lot of the poor,

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you know,

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it's not out of choice,

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but even just out of necessity or their lack of resources,

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most of the farming is regenerative or

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organic,

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because they don't have money to invest in chemical fertilizers,

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pesticides,

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and so on.

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They tend to be small scale,

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they don't have much tools,

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they don't have money to hire labor,

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and therefore they end up with sort of intercropped,

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multi-cropped systems,

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which are,

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I think,

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a way,

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even if they didn't have the label,

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but very much regenerative,

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very much climate resilient in terms of what can grow in a particular area.

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reducing risk in terms of the crop mixes it was usually integrated or mixed crop farming like having some grains like millets having legumes having vegetables having a mix of things on the same plot of land so it also fertilizes the land some of these leguminous crops for instance and it also reduces

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the risk of pest or pathogen attack i think the problem Um...

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Um...

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that these farmers face,

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very small farmers,

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of course,

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is that,

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and this has been intensifying,

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I think,

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with low yields.

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So even though they have these very small plots,

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they have these integrated cropping systems.

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Often the areas where I studied in eastern India,

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which I still continue to study with indigenous people,

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that what they produced was probably enough for them for like four or five months of the year.

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So it was not even taking care of their food needs for the whole year.

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It was not viable in that sense.

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So you did need something to either increase yields and increase productivity or to somehow bring incomes into the family in order to be able to purchase food and to purchase other needs,

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whether it's health care,

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whether it's education costs,

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fees,

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school fees,

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clothes,

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whatever it is.

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And I think this led definitely to the taking up of more high yielding.

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varieties of crops which often needed monocultures rather than these integrated farming systems.

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They also needed much more of very controlled levels of nutrient like fertilizer and so on.

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And monocultures,

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even though they were small,

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so these were not industrial farms,

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they still I'm talking about small farms,

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but the monocultures still.

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brought in problems in terms of soil degradation,

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in terms of overuse sometimes of water or decline in water levels.

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This was also enhanced by government subsidies and incentives,

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for instance,

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for the very poor farmers to give them subsidy for free electricity in order to operate machines to take groundwater from wells to irrigate their farms,

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for instance.

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So they are,

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in fact,

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they focus on the livelihoods of the farmers.

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But there was a trade-off between securing farmer livelihoods versus your environment and natural resource utilization.

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So I think that's one thing that when we talk about the global south,

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that we have to be very mindful that if we start from the perspective of the farmers,

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farmers have a small plot of land and they need subsistence,

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they need income,

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they need that small plot of land to perform multiple roles.

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for them.

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And so any intervention that we take or any support that we take has to look at both the food consumption needs,

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but also some surplus for markets.

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I think with

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Europe, the issues,

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of course,

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are very different in terms of,

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you know,

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the scale and size of farms in the first place.

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I think because of that,

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the farms were never subsistence.

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they were always for the market.

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And therefore,

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it pushed farmers into adopting certain technologies and so on,

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which could increase profits,

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improve yields,

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improve productivity without necessarily caring for the environment.

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Maybe the consequence or the impact is the same that in both cases,

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whether you have the very poor farmer or the medium and rich farmer of Europe,

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the incentives or the motivations might have been different.

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But I think in some ways,

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they have contributed to a crisis in terms of

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You know,

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our environment of overshooting the planetary boundaries.

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I mean,

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from the latest analysis,

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I was also part of the Eat Lancet

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Commission. The report was launched recently in Stockholm.

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And I think what we see very clearly is that the food systems have contributed to almost 30%

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to global greenhouse gas emissions.

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But apart from that,

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they also contribute to the overshoot of,

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you know,

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six of the nine planetary boundaries around water.

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around nitrogen and phosphorus,

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around the integrity of landmass integrity and biodiversity.

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So this has unfortunately been the effects of sort of more,

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I wouldn't use the word industrial,

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as I said,

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farming,

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but more the adoption of technologies which have sought to improve yields and which have in a way led to...

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monocultures.

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Yes.

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You studied how gendered vulnerabilities to climate change are often misunderstood or misrepresented.

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Could you maybe tell us more about this?

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Yes,

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sure.

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So I think,

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I think just continuing from where we are,

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I think in the context of farming,

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particularly and food systems,

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we find today,

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over the last 20-30 years,

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that not just has the research on climate change or climate change become an issue globally,

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but I think we are also seeing the impacts of climate change on the ground.

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So whether it's a poor farmer or a rich farmer,

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you know,

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there's a seasonal variability in rainfall.

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Rainfall comes at the wrong time.

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So if rainfall comes just about when you're going to harvest your crop,

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doesn't matter whether you have half an acre or five acres or

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20, you know,

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that crop is destroyed.

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before it can be harvested or late rains.

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So in a lot of Asia,

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not only India,

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in the tropics,

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we grow a lot of rice or paddy crop,

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which needs a lot of the traditional ways of growing paddy required a lot of water.

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So the paddy seedling should be like almost submerged in water.

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And this was because of what is called in Asia as the monsoon rains,

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very heavy rains during the months of August,

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September,

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October,

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or

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July onwards.

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for four months.

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Over the past several decades or two years,

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we see definitely shift in that pattern.

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So the rains don't come on time.

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So people have transplanted their paddy and then the rain doesn't come,

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then the seedlings dry up.

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And then you have to either start the process again,

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without any security,

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you may not have seed,

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you may not have seedling,

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and so on.

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Now paddy is one crop,

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which is very much dependent on female labour.

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or women's labour for a lot of the activities apart from ploughing and land preparation,

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then the planting,

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the transplanting,

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the weeding,

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even the harvesting can be done by both men and women.

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But a lot of these activities,

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then the post-harvest,

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threshing,

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storage,

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all these activities are done by women.

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Now with insecurity,

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this is one example,

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but similar sort of effects on different crops,

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whether it's potato again can get destroyed by sudden rains when the potatoes are ready to harvest.

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So whatever be the I think given the risk in agriculture.

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which farmers themselves have been experiencing,

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irrespective of any climate predictions.

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Within South Asia,

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particularly,

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being quite patriarchal and with restricted women's mobility,

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the men have been migrating out for work.

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So farming has really been left to women.

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I already mentioned that women are not recognized as farmers,

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but I think more importantly,

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in climate change policy,

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You know,

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this nuance.

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is not there.

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They either see women as doing everything,

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and as some kind of heroic saviours of humanity.

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And in fact,

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this often ends then adding burdens on women by

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targeting everything to women or they see women as really victims that you know poor things they have worked so hard and then they get very little return.

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I think what has been missing is really in these policy approaches and also in interventions and I think this is what I've been trying to work on is that we can't homogenize the experiences of women or men for that matter.

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Because these are shaped by their class position,

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by their ethnicity.

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You know,

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are you rich or poor?

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Do you have land?

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Do you not have land?

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Your age?

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What is the agroecological context in which you are?

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Are you in a mountain?

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Are you in a desert?

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Are you in a forest?

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Are you in a coastal area?

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Because you experience very different kinds of climate change.

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It's also experienced very differently in each of these locations.

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So this,

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in sort of gender analysis,

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we call this intersectionality.

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that really looking at the intersections of different kinds of social relations or social identities of gender,

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class,

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00:12:17.072 --> 00:12:17.992
caste and so on.

267
00:12:18.293 --> 00:12:25.337
Because looking at the social positionality then helps you analyze the vulnerabilities of particular individuals,

268
00:12:25.597 --> 00:12:27.038
women or men.

269
00:12:27.778 --> 00:12:29.879
It's the idea that if we just look at gender,

270
00:12:30.059 --> 00:12:34.222
we have a very kind of linear picture of the situation.

271
00:12:34.242 --> 00:12:37.504
But if we add more factors to the analysis.

272
00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:59.929
such as the socio-economic background and things like that we get a more three-dimensional picture we can exactly take better decisions exactly i mean just to clarify here that for a long time actually gender itself is not included in climate policy as well it was quite blind it just talked about people or communities so it's a big positive i would say that even the gender language has

273
00:13:00.029 --> 00:13:06.032
come in but i think as researchers when we talk about gender we really say that you know

274
00:13:06.420 --> 00:13:07.660
You cannot homogenize women.

275
00:13:07.760 --> 00:13:09.581
Like I may be an Indian woman,

276
00:13:10.161 --> 00:13:11.142
but I'm educated.

277
00:13:11.322 --> 00:13:12.782
I'm a professor in this university.

278
00:13:13.342 --> 00:13:20.865
My positionality is very different from a woman who is cultivating a one acre plot.

279
00:13:21.605 --> 00:13:23.226
Let's say we may both be Indian women,

280
00:13:23.326 --> 00:13:23.586
right?

281
00:13:23.986 --> 00:13:29.468
But our experiences are very different of climate change or of food security or anything else.

282
00:13:30.668 --> 00:13:33.349
So I think the point within gender analysis itself,

283
00:13:33.809 --> 00:13:38.331
what we say is that we really need to look at this difference.

284
00:13:38.551 --> 00:13:38.791
I mean,

285
00:13:38.831 --> 00:13:42.853
it's kind of become now a principle of gender analysis itself.

286
00:13:43.473 --> 00:13:46.334
It's good that you're at least differentiating between women and men.

287
00:13:46.694 --> 00:13:48.715
But you need to take that one extra step,

288
00:13:49.135 --> 00:13:50.516
which I think we haven't yet got to,

289
00:13:51.216 --> 00:13:53.277
of recognizing that even men,

290
00:13:53.657 --> 00:13:54.017
for instance,

291
00:13:54.097 --> 00:14:00.100
all men somehow are taken within the climate policy discourse as somehow not doing much or not contributing.

292
00:14:01.224 --> 00:14:23.780
much or in the case of farming as being just lazy and opting out of farming or you know hanging around kind of thing which is not true because i think what we have studied is that a lot of these poor men they actually migrate to construction sites in cities or you know doing urban informal work under hot heat so heat stress is a very big thing you know vending things they

293
00:14:23.880 --> 00:14:28.804
live in very restricted accommodation maybe 10 men in a small you

294
00:14:29.044 --> 00:14:48.891
room they don't have access to water toilets etc they have to cook for themselves so it's not that you know men are just having a good time as some of the climate policies will help have us believe in this dichotomy that no women are victims they are doing everything and it almost sounds as if men are doing nothing

295
00:14:48.971 --> 00:14:51.972
to adapt or to support the family

296
00:14:53.513 --> 00:14:54.414
with adaptation.

297
00:14:54.955 --> 00:14:57.117
So I think for me,

298
00:14:57.878 --> 00:15:00.000
a gender analysis is not about focusing on

299
00:15:00.048 --> 00:15:01.449
on women or focusing on men,

300
00:15:01.529 --> 00:15:03.771
but it's about looking at some of these relationships,

301
00:15:04.172 --> 00:15:04.392
you know,

302
00:15:04.393 --> 00:15:05.633
of how these are changing.

303
00:15:06.734 --> 00:15:13.139
I think the second very important thing which we miss out is this exactly,

304
00:15:13.760 --> 00:15:17.423
that looking at these wider social relationships,

305
00:15:17.803 --> 00:15:19.185
we're just looking at individuals.

306
00:15:19.186 --> 00:15:20.346
So even if there's a program,

307
00:15:20.746 --> 00:15:21.106
it will say,

308
00:15:21.146 --> 00:15:21.306
okay,

309
00:15:21.346 --> 00:15:23.588
let's target rural women,

310
00:15:23.949 --> 00:15:24.609
or poor women,

311
00:15:24.709 --> 00:15:25.430
or whatever it is,

312
00:15:25.450 --> 00:15:26.091
or men maybe.

313
00:15:27.091 --> 00:15:27.231
But

314
00:15:28.592 --> 00:15:35.256
Just targeting exclusively an individual or a group with some inputs or some credit is not enough because after all,

315
00:15:35.656 --> 00:15:37.637
they are embedded within a society,

316
00:15:37.697 --> 00:15:39.579
within a social relations.

317
00:15:40.059 --> 00:15:41.500
If I give you something today,

318
00:15:41.560 --> 00:15:42.240
let's say credit,

319
00:15:42.700 --> 00:15:44.601
and 10 people around you are starving,

320
00:15:46.142 --> 00:15:49.444
you're not going to be able to use it for the purpose for which it was given.

321
00:15:49.825 --> 00:15:54.647
And this was very stark to me when I was doing research in northern Kenya in amongst pastoral groups,

322
00:15:55.608 --> 00:15:55.748
that

323
00:15:55.808 --> 00:15:59.309
But some of them said that they live in this household structure.

324
00:15:59.709 --> 00:16:00.930
So they are different families.

325
00:16:01.250 --> 00:16:07.652
But it's like a compound with like 40 households or 30 households living in separate huts or houses,

326
00:16:07.692 --> 00:16:09.012
but within a kind of compound.

327
00:16:09.272 --> 00:16:11.433
They're all related in one way or the other.

328
00:16:11.933 --> 00:16:16.655
So one of them whom I was speaking to was a school teacher who had a school job.

329
00:16:16.735 --> 00:16:18.275
So a government job.

330
00:16:19.115 --> 00:16:21.096
And it was severe drought.

331
00:16:21.824 --> 00:16:23.305
in northern Kenya at that time.

332
00:16:23.306 --> 00:16:24.746
It's a semi-arid area.

333
00:16:25.166 --> 00:16:27.627
And he said that because I receive a salary,

334
00:16:28.107 --> 00:16:29.428
I'm seen as non-poor.

335
00:16:29.868 --> 00:16:30.469
But actually,

336
00:16:31.049 --> 00:16:36.492
I'm poor because my limited salary is like split amongst almost

337
00:16:36.972 --> 00:16:38.133
50 or 100 people.

338
00:16:38.633 --> 00:16:40.534
I can't keep it for myself and my children.

339
00:16:41.755 --> 00:16:43.196
So I think social obligation,

340
00:16:43.696 --> 00:16:44.596
social relations,

341
00:16:44.997 --> 00:16:47.058
these are very important in people's lives,

342
00:16:47.158 --> 00:16:48.839
especially in these rural communities,

343
00:16:49.179 --> 00:16:51.240
which we often overlook.

344
00:16:51.808 --> 00:16:53.390
in research but also in policy.

345
00:16:54.912 --> 00:16:58.376
You mentioned already the phenomenon of male migration,

346
00:16:59.217 --> 00:17:02.882
male traveling outside to find work,

347
00:17:03.423 --> 00:17:07.388
and therefore women taking care of most of the farm work and taking over the farms.

348
00:17:08.109 --> 00:17:09.250
Could you tell us more about how that...

349
00:17:09.250 --> 00:17:29.657
that affects farming in general in these regions and the lives of these women and yeah things like that that's a really an interesting question and i think even though i've been working for a long time we recently did over the last several years a sort of comparative study even across different regions of india because india as i said is almost like the eu it's a microcosm for

350
00:17:29.677 --> 00:17:38.440
a very diverse set of cultures languages populations so we looked at sort of the mountains and then um you

351
00:17:38.520 --> 00:17:40.061
We looked at coastal areas,

352
00:17:40.121 --> 00:17:41.562
we looked at semi-arid areas,

353
00:17:41.602 --> 00:17:46.964
and we looked at sort of indigenous groups and forested locations to look at what is happening,

354
00:17:46.984 --> 00:17:48.705
what has been the impacts of climate change.

355
00:17:49.045 --> 00:17:50.726
I think across all the four sites,

356
00:17:50.826 --> 00:17:51.947
as you rightly mentioned,

357
00:17:52.347 --> 00:17:57.390
what we found is that agriculture is not viable as the sole livelihood,

358
00:17:58.610 --> 00:18:00.351
and therefore men are migrating out.

359
00:18:01.892 --> 00:18:04.935
I think this is something which I've been working on for a long time,

360
00:18:04.995 --> 00:18:10.819
that even the nature of migration is such that they end up with sort of low-paid,

361
00:18:10.939 --> 00:18:14.862
insecure jobs in urban areas or whatever.

362
00:18:15.363 --> 00:18:17.985
And those jobs definitely give income.

363
00:18:17.986 --> 00:18:19.926
So it helps to diversify livelihoods,

364
00:18:20.267 --> 00:18:24.190
but it's not enough to reproduce the whole household,

365
00:18:25.111 --> 00:18:26.552
to take care of all the needs.

366
00:18:27.072 --> 00:18:27.793
of the household.

367
00:18:27.794 --> 00:18:29.394
So farming is still very essential.

368
00:18:29.714 --> 00:18:30.254
So in a way,

369
00:18:30.515 --> 00:18:30.755
you know,

370
00:18:30.815 --> 00:18:32.316
in a classical Marxist sense,

371
00:18:32.596 --> 00:18:37.560
the farm still subsidizes sort of capital in terms of subsidizing the migrant labor.

372
00:18:38.260 --> 00:18:38.521
I mean,

373
00:18:38.561 --> 00:18:40.842
the employers can pay the migrant labor less,

374
00:18:41.623 --> 00:18:43.865
because they know that they have a farm at home,

375
00:18:44.725 --> 00:18:50.149
which is taking care of their food needs or the food needs of their households.

376
00:18:50.269 --> 00:18:53.052
I never imagined looking at things this way.

377
00:18:53.132 --> 00:18:53.452
So the

378
00:18:53.712 --> 00:19:10.800
this unpaid work from from women farmers in certain countries actually a subsidy to capital which employs these men men yes because these men are able to work in those jobs at those uh income levels which will not take care of the

379
00:19:10.840 --> 00:19:18.284
needs of the entire family uh they do depend on agriculture so agriculture and farming is still very crucial to the

380
00:19:18.744 --> 00:19:21.426
viability and livelihoods of these families.

381
00:19:21.807 --> 00:19:22.207
And women,

382
00:19:22.267 --> 00:19:22.607
of course,

383
00:19:22.608 --> 00:19:26.351
are taking care of that part of the farming.

384
00:19:26.791 --> 00:19:26.971
Now,

385
00:19:27.292 --> 00:19:28.533
the experiences,

386
00:19:28.573 --> 00:19:28.833
I think,

387
00:19:28.853 --> 00:19:30.514
and this was very interesting for us,

388
00:19:30.935 --> 00:19:33.097
because the general discourse is that,

389
00:19:33.137 --> 00:19:33.397
again,

390
00:19:33.477 --> 00:19:34.178
as I said earlier,

391
00:19:34.179 --> 00:19:35.118
the women as victims,

392
00:19:35.138 --> 00:19:35.799
the poor women,

393
00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:36.059
you know,

394
00:19:36.060 --> 00:19:37.460
they are overburdened with work.

395
00:19:37.540 --> 00:19:40.103
And this is what we see in all the literature on climate change,

396
00:19:40.783 --> 00:19:40.963
that,

397
00:19:41.004 --> 00:19:41.244
you know,

398
00:19:41.245 --> 00:19:45.087
climate change and environmental stress is really increasing the work burdens on women.

399
00:19:45.527 --> 00:19:45.988
It's true.

400
00:19:46.232 --> 00:19:59.980
to some extent because with water stress there are longer distances to go for water if water supply is not assured in the village by the state and of course farming now we found a lot of difference

401
00:20:00.560 --> 00:20:02.921
across these agroecologies.

402
00:20:03.101 --> 00:20:05.342
So rather than I think talking specifically about India,

403
00:20:05.442 --> 00:20:07.303
maybe if I talk about agroecologies,

404
00:20:07.703 --> 00:20:11.365
it has a much more wider relevance as well,

405
00:20:11.845 --> 00:20:13.506
that within these mountain regions,

406
00:20:13.826 --> 00:20:14.506
historically,

407
00:20:14.606 --> 00:20:15.727
men have been migrating.

408
00:20:16.187 --> 00:20:20.589
So even when the subcontinent was under British colonial rule,

409
00:20:21.169 --> 00:20:22.389
till 1947,

410
00:20:22.810 --> 00:20:23.070
you know,

411
00:20:23.090 --> 00:20:25.011
many of these because the mountains are harsh,

412
00:20:25.151 --> 00:20:28.232
and the mountains have always been harsh in terms of climate.

413
00:20:28.572 --> 00:20:29.833
So winters are very harsh,

414
00:20:29.913 --> 00:20:30.673
for instance,

415
00:20:30.954 --> 00:20:32.475
these villages are very remote.

416
00:20:32.755 --> 00:20:34.176
So even right from that time,

417
00:20:35.937 --> 00:20:36.177
you know,

418
00:20:36.178 --> 00:20:37.398
the men would join like the

419
00:20:37.738 --> 00:20:38.419
British Army.

420
00:20:38.719 --> 00:20:39.920
There was a Gurkha regiment,

421
00:20:41.021 --> 00:20:41.641
for instance.

422
00:20:41.642 --> 00:20:44.923
So they were the men were always also seeking to diversify.

423
00:20:46.284 --> 00:20:54.430
And they were seen as hardy people because they live in these very remote and very challenging environments.

424
00:20:55.210 --> 00:20:56.651
So those areas.

425
00:20:58.324 --> 00:21:00.166
Men have a long history of migration.

426
00:21:00.986 --> 00:21:03.408
I think it's very interesting that the longer you're a migrant,

427
00:21:04.749 --> 00:21:10.053
you also tend to build social networks and relationships in your destination location.

428
00:21:10.533 --> 00:21:15.737
You can maybe move upwards in terms of the job that you have and the security that you have.

429
00:21:16.898 --> 00:21:17.118
I mean,

430
00:21:17.158 --> 00:21:18.139
just to make myself clear,

431
00:21:18.219 --> 00:21:18.439
you know,

432
00:21:18.479 --> 00:21:20.420
if you look at migrants,

433
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.022
we looked into one of the cities,

434
00:21:22.242 --> 00:21:22.482
you know,

435
00:21:22.502 --> 00:21:24.123
migrants who have come within two years,

436
00:21:24.203 --> 00:21:25.244
migrants who've been there for...

437
00:21:26.056 --> 00:21:28.837
up to five years and migrants who've been there for more than 10 years.

438
00:21:29.417 --> 00:21:31.318
So those who've been migrant for more than 10 years,

439
00:21:31.338 --> 00:21:32.418
they almost are settled.

440
00:21:32.958 --> 00:21:34.158
So they've got houses,

441
00:21:34.178 --> 00:21:35.719
they built their social networks,

442
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:37.239
they have much bank accounts,

443
00:21:37.259 --> 00:21:39.960
they have much more social security and support.

444
00:21:40.260 --> 00:21:41.520
So in this mountain region,

445
00:21:41.580 --> 00:21:42.501
that's what we found,

446
00:21:42.981 --> 00:21:47.142
that actually the migrants were not these insecure labour,

447
00:21:47.522 --> 00:21:50.203
but they were much more secure because they had been migrating for 40,

448
00:21:50.283 --> 00:21:52.703
50 years across generations.

449
00:21:52.984 --> 00:21:54.224
And therefore the remittances.

450
00:21:54.584 --> 00:21:56.788
were also much larger and much more regular.

451
00:21:57.328 --> 00:21:58.290
And because of this,

452
00:21:59.272 --> 00:22:01.455
the women had a choice actually.

453
00:22:01.796 --> 00:22:08.807
They could either leave the land fallow if they were unable to cultivate or they could employ labour.

454
00:22:09.656 --> 00:22:10.937
to cultivate these lands.

455
00:22:11.517 --> 00:22:15.620
And many of them shifted from crop farming to something like livestock,

456
00:22:16.061 --> 00:22:17.622
which was less labor intensive,

457
00:22:18.042 --> 00:22:22.125
because you could they could be foraging on that field,

458
00:22:22.145 --> 00:22:24.867
it didn't require as much of intensive work,

459
00:22:24.887 --> 00:22:28.149
it was also seen as slightly more climate resilient.

460
00:22:28.850 --> 00:22:31.091
So that was that in those areas.

461
00:22:31.391 --> 00:22:33.012
But in some of these other areas,

462
00:22:33.013 --> 00:22:34.133
the semi arid areas,

463
00:22:34.153 --> 00:22:34.634
the forest,

464
00:22:34.635 --> 00:22:36.395
the indigenous population areas,

465
00:22:37.716 --> 00:22:37.936
where

466
00:22:38.236 --> 00:22:39.958
there are low skills to start off with,

467
00:22:41.080 --> 00:22:42.161
low educational levels.

468
00:22:42.922 --> 00:22:44.884
These places like the forested area,

469
00:22:45.285 --> 00:22:47.147
which I've been working in now for 30 years.

470
00:22:48.268 --> 00:22:48.488
Actually,

471
00:22:48.489 --> 00:22:49.750
when I first started working there,

472
00:22:49.830 --> 00:22:50.851
nobody was migrating.

473
00:22:51.512 --> 00:22:54.556
They were all cultivating men and women in their villages.

474
00:22:55.016 --> 00:22:55.316
In fact,

475
00:22:55.376 --> 00:22:55.796
if at all,

476
00:22:55.856 --> 00:23:03.438
women would migrate temporarily to the nearby district for sort of paddy transplanting and harvesting and so on and get some cash wages.

477
00:23:03.498 --> 00:23:04.479
Men never migrated.

478
00:23:05.259 --> 00:23:06.079
20 years later,

479
00:23:06.159 --> 00:23:07.659
I find that all the men are gone.

480
00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:11.340
So it's a very last 20 years.

481
00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:12.921
And that's because of climate change,

482
00:23:12.961 --> 00:23:13.281
I think,

483
00:23:13.361 --> 00:23:14.381
because of insecurity,

484
00:23:15.161 --> 00:23:18.522
variability in crops and,

485
00:23:18.682 --> 00:23:18.922
you know,

486
00:23:19.163 --> 00:23:20.323
what output you will get.

487
00:23:20.623 --> 00:23:21.183
But also,

488
00:23:21.743 --> 00:23:24.384
I think it's coupled with changing aspirations.

489
00:23:25.088 --> 00:23:26.368
People also now today,

490
00:23:26.929 --> 00:23:27.149
you know,

491
00:23:27.169 --> 00:23:28.529
want to educate their children.

492
00:23:28.589 --> 00:23:30.329
They want to have a mobile phone.

493
00:23:31.170 --> 00:23:32.170
There's a lot of advertising.

494
00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:33.270
There's a lot of communication.

495
00:23:34.391 --> 00:23:39.012
So rural people also have the same aspirations that we want a good life.

496
00:23:39.332 --> 00:23:39.552
You know,

497
00:23:39.553 --> 00:23:44.653
we want these gadgets and good shoes and clothes and things like that.

498
00:23:44.914 --> 00:23:46.494
So that has also created pressure.

499
00:23:46.534 --> 00:23:53.696
Both climate change and changing aspirations has created pressure for men to migrate out.

500
00:23:53.916 --> 00:24:00.843
of these areas and here definitely workloads on women have been increasing.

501
00:24:02.185 --> 00:24:06.669
They don't have enough money to hire labor for instance so they just have to do more.

502
00:24:07.110 --> 00:24:14.778
One of the studies that I did I think which was quite an influential or an important study was on like time use.

503
00:24:15.198 --> 00:24:15.378
of,

504
00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:20.443
it was looking at the across different seasons,

505
00:24:20.444 --> 00:24:20.663
you know,

506
00:24:21.003 --> 00:24:21.283
time,

507
00:24:21.744 --> 00:24:24.806
how male and female time is allocated.

508
00:24:25.166 --> 00:24:31.111
And this is a methodology that is used sort of within not just gender analysis,

509
00:24:31.151 --> 00:24:33.393
but really to understand how labor is divided,

510
00:24:33.473 --> 00:24:35.275
how much labor is being done and so on.

511
00:24:35.655 --> 00:24:40.759
And I found in that that during these peak agricultural seasons of planting,

512
00:24:40.879 --> 00:24:41.440
harvesting,

513
00:24:42.116 --> 00:24:45.340
The women were also out in the fields and the men who were there for eight,

514
00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:45.961
nine hours.

515
00:24:46.682 --> 00:24:48.705
And then they had to spend another,

516
00:24:49.406 --> 00:24:51.869
normally they would to do all their household work,

517
00:24:52.230 --> 00:24:52.590
cooking,

518
00:24:52.670 --> 00:24:53.051
cleaning,

519
00:24:53.151 --> 00:24:53.812
fetching water,

520
00:24:53.892 --> 00:24:56.455
fetching firewood would take another four or five hours.

521
00:24:56.976 --> 00:24:58.838
But during the peak seasons,

522
00:24:58.878 --> 00:24:59.319
when they

523
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.361
I spent nine hours on the farm.

524
00:25:02.001 --> 00:25:03.201
They didn't have another five.

525
00:25:03.241 --> 00:25:03.421
I mean,

526
00:25:03.422 --> 00:25:07.723
they were too exhausted and there was also not that much time to do these other things.

527
00:25:08.503 --> 00:25:09.904
And in our very detailed study,

528
00:25:09.984 --> 00:25:11.845
we found that out of these four or five hours,

529
00:25:11.945 --> 00:25:14.966
almost half the time is for cooking because they cook on firewood.

530
00:25:15.086 --> 00:25:17.667
They don't have gas and pipe gas.

531
00:25:18.948 --> 00:25:21.108
Even though there is a government scheme to provide

532
00:25:21.869 --> 00:25:24.230
LPG cylinders to rural people,

533
00:25:24.450 --> 00:25:29.652
I think getting those refilled and so on and having the money and whether that's their priority.

534
00:25:30.548 --> 00:25:50.039
has also been an issue so they still cook on firewood because it's easily available and i found that really the time for cooking is what shrinks uh like almost to half so rather than cooking you know a balanced diet or you know some legumes some rice and some greens or vegetables they

535
00:25:50.059 --> 00:25:57.984
might just make rice and then have it with chilies or have it with salt or something like that so this of course has implications also on

536
00:25:59.144 --> 00:25:59.704
nutrition,

537
00:26:00.285 --> 00:26:00.885
on health,

538
00:26:01.325 --> 00:26:02.366
on child development,

539
00:26:03.406 --> 00:26:03.926
and so on.

540
00:26:04.206 --> 00:26:04.887
So I think,

541
00:26:05.307 --> 00:26:09.329
so we found very different impacts on women.

542
00:26:09.469 --> 00:26:10.369
So while the farm,

543
00:26:11.049 --> 00:26:11.590
they had to do,

544
00:26:12.090 --> 00:26:13.250
because that was their livelihood.

545
00:26:13.471 --> 00:26:15.471
There was no compromise around the farm work.

546
00:26:15.892 --> 00:26:19.893
What really suffered was your reproductive work,

547
00:26:19.933 --> 00:26:20.654
the care work,

548
00:26:20.714 --> 00:26:21.654
the domestic work,

549
00:26:22.034 --> 00:26:23.575
which included cooking,

550
00:26:23.935 --> 00:26:24.395
feeding,

551
00:26:24.796 --> 00:26:25.296
cleaning.

552
00:26:26.208 --> 00:26:28.230
And this then had impacts on,

553
00:26:29.251 --> 00:26:29.651
as I said,

554
00:26:29.691 --> 00:26:32.273
on consumption and nutrition.

555
00:26:32.894 --> 00:26:33.314
And of course,

556
00:26:33.315 --> 00:26:35.055
when we take a food system lens,

557
00:26:35.516 --> 00:26:36.777
then it's not only farming.

558
00:26:36.797 --> 00:26:37.037
I mean,

559
00:26:37.057 --> 00:26:41.641
we're looking at the whole system from production to consumption,

560
00:26:41.741 --> 00:26:43.342
because ultimately we are looking at,

561
00:26:43.823 --> 00:26:44.083
you know,

562
00:26:44.443 --> 00:26:49.628
the health and well-being of people and of communities.

563
00:26:50.692 --> 00:26:53.113
I really hope you're enjoying this conversation so far.

564
00:26:53.413 --> 00:26:58.914
I just need to take a few seconds of your time to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast,

565
00:26:59.434 --> 00:27:00.055
Soil Capital.

566
00:27:01.055 --> 00:27:09.537
Soil Capital is a company that accelerates the transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve the health of their soils.

567
00:27:10.117 --> 00:27:11.158
They're a fantastic company,

568
00:27:11.278 --> 00:27:15.159
I love what they're doing and I'm really proud to be partnering with them for the Deep Seed podcast.

569
00:27:15.619 --> 00:27:16.859
If you'd like to learn more about them,

570
00:27:16.879 --> 00:27:19.340
I will leave a link in the description of this episode.

571
00:27:20.100 --> 00:27:21.380
Let's get back to the conversation.

572
00:27:22.261 --> 00:27:23.101
Here in Europe,

573
00:27:23.121 --> 00:27:23.441
in the UK,

574
00:27:23.741 --> 00:27:24.941
we see a movement,

575
00:27:25.182 --> 00:27:26.342
it's still small,

576
00:27:26.422 --> 00:27:27.042
but it's growing,

577
00:27:27.762 --> 00:27:29.083
of regenerative agriculture,

578
00:27:29.343 --> 00:27:32.184
of finding ways to produce as much,

579
00:27:33.044 --> 00:27:34.584
but working with nature.

580
00:27:34.684 --> 00:27:37.605
So being much less reliant on these tools,

581
00:27:37.665 --> 00:27:38.385
on these chemicals,

582
00:27:38.405 --> 00:27:38.985
for example,

583
00:27:40.266 --> 00:27:42.326
and therefore producing as much,

584
00:27:43.107 --> 00:27:43.747
spending less money,

585
00:27:44.327 --> 00:27:46.007
producing better quality food,

586
00:27:46.648 --> 00:27:47.128
and therefore...

587
00:27:48.088 --> 00:27:49.729
providing a better livelihood for the farmer.

588
00:27:50.689 --> 00:27:53.771
Do you see something similar happening in India as well?

589
00:27:54.271 --> 00:27:54.431
Yeah,

590
00:27:54.852 --> 00:27:55.732
I think definitely.

591
00:27:56.152 --> 00:28:04.097
I think there has been a lot of awareness in terms of we needed to become a food secure country at that time.

592
00:28:04.557 --> 00:28:04.977
And therefore,

593
00:28:04.978 --> 00:28:09.940
it was important to improve productivity and improve yield.

594
00:28:10.280 --> 00:28:11.361
But I think pretty soon,

595
00:28:12.001 --> 00:28:17.204
the realization came that there are also the downsides of this in terms of

596
00:28:17.744 --> 00:28:34.655
you know excessive use of fertilizers decline because of declining soil quality due to repeated mono crops and the same crops so because of these small farms you know they don't really have the luxury of leaving land fallow or doing rotations in that sense so

597
00:28:34.716 --> 00:28:47.244
i think if you have irrigation then you end up growing two rice crops or three rice crops so all of these for livelihood security but all of these led to uh even if without using of too much of fertilizers and

598
00:28:47.304 --> 00:29:05.314
it still led to decline in soil nutrient quality because the same crop if you grow again and again it withdraws certain nutrients from the soil which you then need to give back to the soil in some way or the other whether through crop mixes or through fertilizers

599
00:29:06.194 --> 00:29:08.275
or bio inputs.

600
00:29:08.516 --> 00:29:15.880
So I think this realization has been there and I think even there one of the big things are big projects which I would like to mention.

601
00:29:17.540 --> 00:29:18.921
has been in a whole state.

602
00:29:19.641 --> 00:29:20.582
So it's like a country,

603
00:29:20.682 --> 00:29:21.322
European country,

604
00:29:21.342 --> 00:29:23.883
a state called Andhra Pradesh in southern India,

605
00:29:24.403 --> 00:29:26.104
which maybe about,

606
00:29:27.084 --> 00:29:27.444
I don't know,

607
00:29:27.524 --> 00:29:28.525
maybe 2017,

608
00:29:28.526 --> 00:29:29.965
2018,

609
00:29:29.966 --> 00:29:35.628
introduced something called community-based natural farming as a state level,

610
00:29:35.788 --> 00:29:36.728
a large program.

611
00:29:37.108 --> 00:29:44.912
So this program was basically built on groups of women which were already pre-organized.

612
00:29:45.812 --> 00:29:51.095
over the last 30 years through credit and microfinance initiatives and all called self-help groups.

613
00:29:51.415 --> 00:30:00.000
They used them and gave women the leadership training into a range of sustainable practices.

614
00:30:01.041 --> 00:30:01.761
In this area,

615
00:30:02.042 --> 00:30:03.303
unlike the indigenous areas,

616
00:30:03.323 --> 00:30:04.704
which I will compare in a moment,

617
00:30:05.144 --> 00:30:12.830
that already that knowledge of regenerative farming was more or less lost because for the last 30 years they have been doing.

618
00:30:13.731 --> 00:30:16.573
So the generation which had that knowledge is kind of passed on.

619
00:30:17.134 --> 00:30:29.424
So they had to actually start with working with these women's groups and to introduce the ideas of natural farming or regenerative farming approaches.

620
00:30:29.704 --> 00:30:31.725
in terms of everything,

621
00:30:32.205 --> 00:30:33.085
production planning,

622
00:30:33.546 --> 00:30:34.786
what should be the crop mixes,

623
00:30:34.806 --> 00:30:37.327
you should have three layers of crops like fruit trees,

624
00:30:37.767 --> 00:30:38.028
you know,

625
00:30:38.228 --> 00:30:38.608
crops,

626
00:30:38.708 --> 00:30:39.368
vegetables,

627
00:30:39.768 --> 00:30:40.609
some for cash,

628
00:30:40.689 --> 00:30:42.409
like the fruit trees,

629
00:30:42.429 --> 00:30:43.030
for instance,

630
00:30:43.350 --> 00:30:46.951
could start once they started yielding would provide a source of cash,

631
00:30:47.472 --> 00:30:49.813
along with crops for subsistence,

632
00:30:50.453 --> 00:30:55.175
about the making of bio inputs and bio fertilizers,

633
00:30:55.255 --> 00:30:56.455
like not just manure,

634
00:30:56.575 --> 00:30:57.496
in manure

635
00:30:58.076 --> 00:31:03.139
using cow dung but also worms and vermicomposting and other kinds of bio inputs.

636
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:04.880
In India we have the neem tree.

637
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:14.366
Neem is a very good ingredient for a biopesticide because traditionally they used to use neem to keep away pests.

638
00:31:14.806 --> 00:31:18.268
So I think getting back into extracting neem oil,

639
00:31:18.488 --> 00:31:24.272
using that as biopesticides and so on and this has been at a large scale.

640
00:31:25.156 --> 00:31:25.317
Now,

641
00:31:25.377 --> 00:31:32.002
because the whole state government and I think what was very innovative in this was that apart from working with communities,

642
00:31:33.143 --> 00:31:34.925
with the whole food system perspective,

643
00:31:34.945 --> 00:31:36.746
so talking about production planning,

644
00:31:37.447 --> 00:31:38.908
how to manage farms,

645
00:31:39.168 --> 00:31:39.709
inputs,

646
00:31:39.949 --> 00:31:41.290
then also the value chains,

647
00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:43.012
markets and also consumption.

648
00:31:43.612 --> 00:31:48.036
So there was also a component of nutrition and nutrition education and you know,

649
00:31:48.076 --> 00:31:52.100
how would you plan your meal and therefore you should plant according to what you would like to eat.

650
00:31:53.172 --> 00:31:53.672
And so on.

651
00:31:54.192 --> 00:32:00.754
And the one thing that I really appreciated was that the government also recruited graduates,

652
00:32:00.794 --> 00:32:07.096
young graduates from agriculture universities and on three years or five years as interns or,

653
00:32:07.436 --> 00:32:07.676
you know,

654
00:32:08.056 --> 00:32:10.877
and gave them a salary to live in these villages.

655
00:32:11.617 --> 00:32:22.480
And they also gave these graduates like a plot of land where they could experiment based on whatever knowledge they had learned within agricultural universities and also see what farmers were doing.

656
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:28.322
and then actually build some kind of a hybrid mix of what works,

657
00:32:28.402 --> 00:32:29.303
what doesn't work,

658
00:32:29.423 --> 00:32:29.903
and so on.

659
00:32:30.163 --> 00:32:33.905
So many of these agricultural graduates also had to do a lot of unlearning in many ways,

660
00:32:33.945 --> 00:32:34.825
because they are trained in,

661
00:32:35.285 --> 00:32:35.525
you know,

662
00:32:36.065 --> 00:32:38.126
modern technologies.

663
00:32:38.506 --> 00:32:44.869
But I think it's been a very interesting give and take in terms of the agricultural graduates having some knowledge,

664
00:32:44.929 --> 00:32:45.910
women having knowledge,

665
00:32:46.030 --> 00:32:47.490
others having knowledge,

666
00:32:47.830 --> 00:32:49.971
involving some of the men in terms of,

667
00:32:50.011 --> 00:32:50.191
okay,

668
00:32:50.251 --> 00:32:51.332
finding the markets.

669
00:32:51.832 --> 00:32:53.373
Where do you sell surplus produce?

670
00:32:53.414 --> 00:32:56.716
How do you ensure that there's an income flow that goes on?

671
00:32:57.857 --> 00:33:00.920
And I think that's been now running for the last seven,

672
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:01.521
eight years.

673
00:33:01.921 --> 00:33:06.845
And what they did find is that there's not that much difference in terms of incomes.

674
00:33:07.586 --> 00:33:07.846
I mean,

675
00:33:08.447 --> 00:33:09.928
if you see per crop yield,

676
00:33:10.589 --> 00:33:11.630
it might have gone down.

677
00:33:11.970 --> 00:33:13.892
But when you look at the multiple crops.

678
00:33:14.612 --> 00:33:15.813
And across the seasons,

679
00:33:16.153 --> 00:33:16.433
actually,

680
00:33:16.473 --> 00:33:18.615
there's no really decline in income.

681
00:33:18.655 --> 00:33:19.115
If at all,

682
00:33:19.175 --> 00:33:21.197
there is a five or it's not a huge increase either,

683
00:33:21.577 --> 00:33:24.139
but it may be a five or 10%

684
00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:25.459
increase in incomes.

685
00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:29.562
So I think it's really a very interesting initiative.

686
00:33:29.882 --> 00:33:33.825
The government of India has now started to encourage this kind of thing,

687
00:33:34.406 --> 00:33:38.268
a new program on sort of organic farming and so on,

688
00:33:38.668 --> 00:33:43.452
where they are encouraging NGOs and other extension organizations.

689
00:33:43.928 --> 00:33:50.611
to set up what they call as bio input resource centers to really look at particular context,

690
00:33:50.671 --> 00:33:51.731
particular soil condition.

691
00:33:51.771 --> 00:33:53.132
These have to be very contextualized,

692
00:33:53.172 --> 00:33:53.292
right?

693
00:33:53.352 --> 00:33:55.613
Farming is not the same everywhere.

694
00:33:55.653 --> 00:33:57.634
It depends on your climate,

695
00:33:57.674 --> 00:33:58.214
your soil,

696
00:33:58.254 --> 00:33:58.914
your temperature,

697
00:33:59.014 --> 00:34:00.995
your rainfall,

698
00:34:01.495 --> 00:34:02.056
elevation,

699
00:34:02.336 --> 00:34:02.896
all these things.

700
00:34:03.376 --> 00:34:07.938
So they are actually supporting and this is a very new project.

701
00:34:08.198 --> 00:34:10.479
So I'm quite hopeful that it might shift,

702
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:12.000
you know,

703
00:34:12.100 --> 00:34:12.440
things.

704
00:34:13.080 --> 00:34:16.021
towards a more regenerative element.

705
00:34:16.522 --> 00:34:17.882
Just before I finish this,

706
00:34:17.902 --> 00:34:23.805
I just wanted to give the contrasting case of indigenous people and indigenous communities who still have a lot of knowledge.

707
00:34:24.765 --> 00:34:27.286
They haven't lost all their knowledge.

708
00:34:27.746 --> 00:34:34.609
But this knowledge in India as globally is rapidly eroding due to multiple reasons.

709
00:34:35.170 --> 00:34:37.230
One big reason is of course land alienation.

710
00:34:37.631 --> 00:34:40.592
So the taking over of the land and territories.

711
00:34:41.032 --> 00:34:43.575
of indigenous people for so-called development,

712
00:34:43.655 --> 00:34:50.462
whether it is building big dams or infrastructures or roads or railways or whatever it is.

713
00:34:50.502 --> 00:34:55.868
So we are basically reducing their access to their environment and their biodiversity,

714
00:34:56.309 --> 00:34:59.112
forest enclosures which started during colonial

715
00:35:00.060 --> 00:35:01.061
times itself,

716
00:35:01.441 --> 00:35:02.302
because they needed,

717
00:35:02.842 --> 00:35:05.103
the colonial government needed timber,

718
00:35:05.183 --> 00:35:08.045
particularly for construction of railways and other kinds of things.

719
00:35:08.065 --> 00:35:14.670
A lot of the natural forests were destroyed and replaced by teak or pine plantations,

720
00:35:15.670 --> 00:35:16.111
which of course,

721
00:35:16.131 --> 00:35:18.713
then you've lost a lot of your biodiversity.

722
00:35:19.493 --> 00:35:22.255
And so over generations,

723
00:35:22.435 --> 00:35:22.795
clearly,

724
00:35:24.016 --> 00:35:25.177
Unlike in Latin America,

725
00:35:25.417 --> 00:35:27.738
I think where indigenous knowledge or Canada,

726
00:35:27.918 --> 00:35:30.420
which is a very good example of preserving indigenous knowledge,

727
00:35:32.081 --> 00:35:32.641
New Zealand,

728
00:35:32.781 --> 00:35:34.002
compared to some of these countries,

729
00:35:34.082 --> 00:35:35.162
I think in South Asia,

730
00:35:35.703 --> 00:35:38.164
where we have a substantial proportion of indigenous people,

731
00:35:38.184 --> 00:35:44.188
but the indigenous knowledges have declined because of changes in land use and state policy,

732
00:35:44.488 --> 00:35:45.608
but also because of,

733
00:35:46.909 --> 00:35:47.770
to some extent,

734
00:35:48.850 --> 00:35:49.891
modern education.

735
00:35:50.091 --> 00:35:51.632
I mentioned aspirations before.

736
00:35:51.992 --> 00:36:08.689
that these children also go to schools which are mainstream schools which unfortunately in the mainstream curriculum they treat they don't really recognize indigenous knowledge but they treat them as some kind of wild

737
00:36:08.829 --> 00:36:11.132
people or forest dwellers who don't know much

738
00:36:12.188 --> 00:36:13.669
or backward and poor.

739
00:36:14.469 --> 00:36:18.052
So these young people who have gone through this education system,

740
00:36:18.852 --> 00:36:23.135
they want to distance themselves from their culture and their identity.

741
00:36:23.195 --> 00:36:25.776
They see themselves as modern youth with modern aspirations.

742
00:36:25.796 --> 00:36:26.677
I want to live in a city.

743
00:36:26.697 --> 00:36:27.597
I want to do a job.

744
00:36:28.178 --> 00:36:31.660
They don't see themselves or they don't want to see themselves.

745
00:36:32.992 --> 00:36:33.632
in that light.

746
00:36:34.053 --> 00:36:37.354
So one of the projects that I've been working on for the last now several years,

747
00:36:37.414 --> 00:36:37.614
again,

748
00:36:37.634 --> 00:36:39.715
since 2018-19,

749
00:36:39.716 --> 00:36:44.697
has been really working with young people or youth within these indigenous communities.

750
00:36:45.318 --> 00:36:46.618
And it was very interesting,

751
00:36:46.738 --> 00:36:47.038
actually,

752
00:36:47.118 --> 00:36:49.159
that in a way COVID came as a blessing,

753
00:36:50.040 --> 00:36:51.080
rather than a constraint,

754
00:36:51.140 --> 00:36:54.542
because this project was using creative tools and digital tools.

755
00:36:55.122 --> 00:36:56.443
So the project involved,

756
00:36:57.503 --> 00:36:59.004
and with one of my colleagues here,

757
00:36:59.864 --> 00:37:04.467
training some of these indigenous youth in filmmaking and in radio,

758
00:37:05.047 --> 00:37:06.408
use of radio and so on,

759
00:37:07.609 --> 00:37:11.992
to document this environment and their circumstances and their food systems.

760
00:37:12.012 --> 00:37:14.033
It was around sustainable food systems,

761
00:37:14.053 --> 00:37:14.633
the project.

762
00:37:16.414 --> 00:37:22.258
So we had just finished the film training for these group of youth in two sites in India,

763
00:37:22.778 --> 00:37:23.559
indigenous youth,

764
00:37:24.259 --> 00:37:25.160
and then COVID came.

765
00:37:26.100 --> 00:37:29.623
But they had the cameras and they'd had the training and we couldn't go there.

766
00:37:30.143 --> 00:37:30.784
So basically,

767
00:37:30.884 --> 00:37:33.626
these young people did a fantastic job of going.

768
00:37:33.806 --> 00:37:35.308
They also schools were shut,

769
00:37:35.388 --> 00:37:36.308
colleges were shut.

770
00:37:36.629 --> 00:37:40.071
So they were in their communities and they then went around the forest,

771
00:37:40.111 --> 00:37:41.232
went around the community,

772
00:37:42.633 --> 00:37:43.674
taking photographs,

773
00:37:43.934 --> 00:37:45.356
making small films,

774
00:37:46.917 --> 00:37:48.378
talking to older people,

775
00:37:48.738 --> 00:37:49.999
talking to this.

776
00:37:51.352 --> 00:37:52.713
By the time six months later,

777
00:37:53.754 --> 00:37:54.094
March,

778
00:37:54.475 --> 00:37:55.575
the COVID lockdown came.

779
00:37:55.595 --> 00:37:56.416
By the end of the year,

780
00:37:56.936 --> 00:38:08.225
we found that they had set up a YouTube channel and had like 60 or 70 like short three or four minute films documenting the most amazing like biodiversity,

781
00:38:08.465 --> 00:38:09.206
recipes,

782
00:38:11.047 --> 00:38:11.788
landscapes.

783
00:38:13.185 --> 00:38:13.725
And so on.

784
00:38:14.346 --> 00:38:16.888
So then we got into a conversation that really,

785
00:38:17.809 --> 00:38:29.980
we started looking at these films and talking to them about these films and what motivated you and what did you want to communicate because they also had complete voice since we were absent from the field.

786
00:38:32.422 --> 00:38:34.224
And then issues around identity,

787
00:38:34.424 --> 00:38:37.046
issues around culture definitely came up.

788
00:38:37.887 --> 00:38:38.187
And...

789
00:38:39.068 --> 00:38:40.229
In those discussions,

790
00:38:40.389 --> 00:38:48.072
I think they realized and they said that actually we had never realized and we were really alienated from this.

791
00:38:48.432 --> 00:38:49.333
And the older people,

792
00:38:49.373 --> 00:38:50.333
when we interviewed them,

793
00:38:50.993 --> 00:38:56.916
said that actually this has really created a very good intergenerational communication because the young people interviewed them.

794
00:38:57.496 --> 00:38:58.237
Their grandmothers,

795
00:38:58.277 --> 00:39:00.978
their grandfathers went with them to the forest,

796
00:39:01.418 --> 00:39:04.440
saw what herbs they were collecting for medicine or for something else.

797
00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:05.040
And...

798
00:39:06.044 --> 00:39:21.797
realize that actually they know something they may not have gone to school but actually they're quite knowledgeable so there was a mutual respect that that developed anyway to cut a long story short after that what we did was once we had these young people on our side we decided that we

799
00:39:21.817 --> 00:39:34.908
didn't want to romanticize but if we wanted to really challenge the mainstream discourse about and you give legitimacy to indigenous knowledge we worked with a group of nutritionists to analyze all these uh

800
00:39:35.520 --> 00:39:54.035
foods and both raw and cooked which these young people had documented and i don't have it on me now but we then um they did the nutritional analysis and actually we found that and they developed a little recipe book uh for us uh with the nutrition

801
00:39:54.095 --> 00:39:59.940
values which is really that it is quite complete a lot of these uh foods if

802
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.600
They're eaten in the right combination.

803
00:40:01.981 --> 00:40:03.461
They're quite nutritionally complete.

804
00:40:03.721 --> 00:40:06.422
And when we fed that back to the young people,

805
00:40:07.002 --> 00:40:08.782
I think that's really made a difference.

806
00:40:09.022 --> 00:40:09.983
So what I'm doing now,

807
00:40:10.043 --> 00:40:11.583
and this is still ongoing work,

808
00:40:12.863 --> 00:40:18.225
is like working with these young people and with communities to try and bring back or recover,

809
00:40:18.465 --> 00:40:18.925
if you like,

810
00:40:18.945 --> 00:40:23.126
and restore their indigenous,

811
00:40:23.246 --> 00:40:24.006
their knowledges,

812
00:40:24.387 --> 00:40:25.867
and actually a pride in their knowledges,

813
00:40:25.927 --> 00:40:26.147
saying,

814
00:40:26.207 --> 00:40:26.507
actually,

815
00:40:26.567 --> 00:40:27.387
you have knowledge.

816
00:40:27.647 --> 00:40:29.408
So don't feel under that.

817
00:40:29.688 --> 00:40:29.928
you know,

818
00:40:29.968 --> 00:40:30.889
you don't know anything,

819
00:40:31.189 --> 00:40:36.494
because this is the way they've been treated by extension officers and agriculture department saying,

820
00:40:36.514 --> 00:40:37.374
we'll tell you what to do.

821
00:40:37.474 --> 00:40:38.575
This is the way you should plant.

822
00:40:38.655 --> 00:40:40.637
This is the way you should harvest,

823
00:40:41.037 --> 00:40:42.799
not really listening to them or what they know.

824
00:40:43.379 --> 00:40:44.620
So we're trying to reverse.

825
00:40:45.001 --> 00:40:45.401
I think,

826
00:40:46.082 --> 00:40:46.722
in this case,

827
00:40:46.742 --> 00:40:49.745
we're able to recover some of their knowledges,

828
00:40:50.065 --> 00:40:51.866
and then trying to use science as well,

829
00:40:52.787 --> 00:40:58.492
to sort of legitimize their knowledge that nutrition science and then now trying to work both with

830
00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:18.073
in the agriculture department to say that look these people have some good foods and some good practices you know if you want to give them something to plant why don't you develop varieties or why don't you develop seeds for these mushrooms or these greens and let them grow that in their fields rather than bringing in external varieties

831
00:41:18.313 --> 00:41:28.840
because these local varieties the most important thing is that they're adapted they're climate adapted they're adapted to the local soils and the local conditions for generations and therefore they're much more resilient

832
00:41:31.301 --> 00:41:38.144
than the external or the modern or the Western varieties which we bring in to these regions.

833
00:41:38.624 --> 00:41:38.784
Yeah.

834
00:41:39.724 --> 00:41:41.985
I have a very small favor to ask.

835
00:41:42.266 --> 00:41:46.347
If you enjoy listening to the Deep Seat podcast and you find this interesting and meaningful,

836
00:41:46.827 --> 00:41:48.868
then please support me and my work.

837
00:41:48.888 --> 00:41:52.630
And you can actually do that in just five seconds by clicking on the like button,

838
00:41:53.290 --> 00:41:54.351
on the subscribe button,

839
00:41:54.491 --> 00:41:57.412
and maybe leave us a message in the comment section.

840
00:41:57.772 --> 00:42:01.637
It actually makes a huge difference for me and it allows me to continue doing this work.

841
00:42:01.677 --> 00:42:03.819
So thank you so much in advance.

842
00:42:03.940 --> 00:42:04.981
I really appreciate it.

843
00:42:05.161 --> 00:42:05.441
Thank you.

844
00:42:06.142 --> 00:42:12.090
You've said a lot of really positive things about regenerative agriculture and the regenerative agriculture movement in general,

845
00:42:12.190 --> 00:42:12.710
which is great.

846
00:42:14.272 --> 00:42:14.933
But I'm wondering,

847
00:42:16.535 --> 00:42:17.056
what are...

848
00:42:18.056 --> 00:42:22.379
The biggest mistake that you see happening within the regenerative agricultural movement in general,

849
00:42:22.699 --> 00:42:24.160
how could we do things differently?

850
00:42:25.461 --> 00:42:26.122
So I think

851
00:42:26.842 --> 00:42:30.525
I'm largely positive of the regenerative farming movement.

852
00:42:30.665 --> 00:42:32.046
I think that what we need,

853
00:42:32.846 --> 00:42:33.987
from my own experience,

854
00:42:34.107 --> 00:42:39.311
is perhaps a little more of solid research evidence,

855
00:42:39.451 --> 00:42:40.752
which is place-based,

856
00:42:42.113 --> 00:42:43.093
that really examines,

857
00:42:43.273 --> 00:42:43.553
I think,

858
00:42:43.654 --> 00:42:43.814
one,

859
00:42:43.874 --> 00:42:47.076
the economic realities of regenerative agriculture.

860
00:42:48.020 --> 00:42:54.122
And also the social changes in social relations or the social roles and responsibilities.

861
00:42:57.022 --> 00:43:01.344
And this will vary across different countries and different regions and different contexts.

862
00:43:01.345 --> 00:43:04.665
And that's why I said place-based is very important because in every context,

863
00:43:05.065 --> 00:43:09.646
I think anything new that you do will shape both the social relations of who does what,

864
00:43:09.686 --> 00:43:10.866
who takes what decisions,

865
00:43:11.166 --> 00:43:12.407
but also it will change,

866
00:43:13.927 --> 00:43:14.167
you know,

867
00:43:14.207 --> 00:43:16.848
the economics of that particular activity.

868
00:43:17.268 --> 00:43:22.229
So farmers clearly are trying many different things and they are very innovative.

869
00:43:22.309 --> 00:43:28.251
I think that they have to be very innovative in order to survive in contexts which are very uncertain and risky.

870
00:43:29.051 --> 00:43:37.173
But also there is an issue of both time and capital investments that are needed in order to bring this change.

871
00:43:37.514 --> 00:43:38.634
So bringing any change,

872
00:43:38.694 --> 00:43:43.855
like even shifting from mainstream agriculture or conventional agriculture to regenerative agriculture,

873
00:43:44.175 --> 00:43:46.096
it does require some.

874
00:43:47.560 --> 00:44:07.188
um education and awareness but more than that it also requires some kind of you know physical changes and capital changes changes in terms of the kinds of investments you make and so on and i think there's less research i feel in terms of really uh understanding and

875
00:44:07.189 --> 00:44:16.672
uh concrete in very concrete ways of what are the costs and benefits of this change and i'm saying it not from a negative perspective.

876
00:44:17.132 --> 00:44:22.754
but even from the perspective of supporting farmers to make that change.

877
00:44:23.074 --> 00:44:26.375
If we don't look at the constraints,

878
00:44:26.455 --> 00:44:27.935
just a little example I'll give you,

879
00:44:27.995 --> 00:44:29.315
climate smart agriculture,

880
00:44:29.535 --> 00:44:30.156
for instance.

881
00:44:30.536 --> 00:44:30.756
I mean,

882
00:44:30.796 --> 00:44:35.297
this has become a big thing everywhere that agriculture has to be climate smart,

883
00:44:35.357 --> 00:44:36.537
conservation agriculture,

884
00:44:36.617 --> 00:44:38.698
various kinds of forage crops,

885
00:44:39.598 --> 00:44:40.198
fence crops.

886
00:44:40.218 --> 00:44:40.438
I mean,

887
00:44:40.498 --> 00:44:44.760
various kinds of things are being promoted as part of climate smart agriculture.

888
00:44:46.580 --> 00:44:47.401
we analyzed,

889
00:44:47.662 --> 00:44:54.612
I was involved with analysis of some climate smart agriculture practices in South Asia.

890
00:44:55.734 --> 00:45:00.000
And definitely they are having positive impacts in terms of mitigation in terms

891
00:45:00.048 --> 00:45:02.969
of adaptation in terms of overall environmental benefits.

892
00:45:03.389 --> 00:45:06.810
But when we added some gender variables,

893
00:45:07.250 --> 00:45:08.970
like time contribution,

894
00:45:09.070 --> 00:45:11.151
labor contribution and control over income,

895
00:45:11.871 --> 00:45:14.312
we found the results changed.

896
00:45:14.732 --> 00:45:16.532
So something like conservation agriculture,

897
00:45:16.612 --> 00:45:17.373
which is very good,

898
00:45:17.873 --> 00:45:22.634
but it actually is very labor intensive as far as women's labor time is concerned.

899
00:45:23.154 --> 00:45:23.594
And actually,

900
00:45:23.614 --> 00:45:27.876
women have no control over the output of this conservation agriculture,

901
00:45:27.936 --> 00:45:28.636
Because as I said,

902
00:45:28.976 --> 00:45:29.316
land...

903
00:45:29.836 --> 00:45:32.058
in these countries is primarily owned by men.

904
00:45:34.580 --> 00:45:34.980
And this,

905
00:45:35.140 --> 00:45:35.440
obviously,

906
00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:37.502
if she spends her time on conservation agriculture,

907
00:45:37.522 --> 00:45:39.203
then she can do less of something else.

908
00:45:40.324 --> 00:45:40.865
But something,

909
00:45:41.105 --> 00:45:45.568
another climate smart agriculture practice like home gardens or home gardens,

910
00:45:45.668 --> 00:45:47.550
which have also been promoted as climate smart.

911
00:45:48.210 --> 00:45:52.794
And these actually are quite beneficial because they also involve a lot of labor time of women.

912
00:45:53.314 --> 00:45:54.895
But then women have the control over

913
00:45:56.120 --> 00:45:57.041
these home gardens,

914
00:45:57.381 --> 00:46:01.625
because the assumption is that somehow these home gardens are linked to your domestic role,

915
00:46:01.645 --> 00:46:02.586
they're close to the home,

916
00:46:02.926 --> 00:46:05.048
they're used for feeding the family and the children.

917
00:46:05.368 --> 00:46:08.531
So women can decide what to do with that home garden.

918
00:46:09.151 --> 00:46:11.553
So I think two climate smart agriculture practices,

919
00:46:11.874 --> 00:46:14.316
but can have very different outcomes,

920
00:46:14.656 --> 00:46:16.317
and therefore very different motivations.

921
00:46:16.738 --> 00:46:18.219
So if I'm that woman farmer,

922
00:46:18.279 --> 00:46:19.280
and I have limited time,

923
00:46:20.128 --> 00:46:22.930
Then it's not that I'm not for regenerative agriculture,

924
00:46:23.451 --> 00:46:29.296
but I may decide that there's no point contributing time to my husband's conservation agriculture plot.

925
00:46:30.177 --> 00:46:34.160
I better spend my time doing something else.

926
00:46:34.772 --> 00:46:41.296
which will help me to fulfill my part of the domestic contract or conjugal contract,

927
00:46:41.676 --> 00:46:41.916
you know,

928
00:46:41.917 --> 00:46:43.177
in terms of provision of food,

929
00:46:43.597 --> 00:46:43.737
etc.,

930
00:46:44.037 --> 00:46:45.878
putting food on the table and so on.

931
00:46:46.399 --> 00:46:48.580
So I think we need to understand these motivations.

932
00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:50.501
And these motivations involve,

933
00:46:50.621 --> 00:46:50.981
as I said,

934
00:46:51.061 --> 00:46:51.442
time,

935
00:46:51.562 --> 00:46:51.882
labor,

936
00:46:52.022 --> 00:46:52.462
capital.

937
00:46:53.122 --> 00:46:55.764
And I think these aspects of regenerative farming you

938
00:46:56.488 --> 00:46:58.930
are less well understood.

939
00:46:59.531 --> 00:47:02.093
So it's not a mistake,

940
00:47:02.233 --> 00:47:03.854
but I think we need to,

941
00:47:04.214 --> 00:47:04.514
again,

942
00:47:04.655 --> 00:47:05.816
just like indigenous knowledge,

943
00:47:05.876 --> 00:47:07.237
rather than romanticizing,

944
00:47:07.617 --> 00:47:11.180
I think we need to produce the evidence that actually this is a win-win.

945
00:47:11.744 --> 00:47:27.693
or what is a win-win and for whom i think the question for whom is very important okay so we focus a lot on technical solutions and we analyze them and say they get they're getting these results but then we don't always contextualize those results uh using

946
00:47:28.474 --> 00:47:38.920
intersectionality exactly exactly you've got the word so i was going to say that i would put back bring back the discussion of intersectionality here.

947
00:47:39.300 --> 00:47:39.921
to see that,

948
00:47:40.001 --> 00:47:40.241
you know,

949
00:47:40.302 --> 00:47:42.325
rather than doing a blame game kind of thing,

950
00:47:42.365 --> 00:47:42.725
but we can,

951
00:47:42.925 --> 00:47:45.249
if we can understand from the perspective of different people,

952
00:47:45.790 --> 00:47:49.415
what are their limitations or constraints in terms of taking on something.

953
00:47:50.036 --> 00:47:52.340
So just to be very concrete with you.

954
00:47:53.932 --> 00:47:55.493
I was talking to a group of indigenous,

955
00:47:55.953 --> 00:47:56.153
again,

956
00:47:56.213 --> 00:47:56.973
poor women,

957
00:47:57.213 --> 00:47:58.374
not only indigenous,

958
00:47:59.794 --> 00:48:01.955
and asking them about this.

959
00:48:02.015 --> 00:48:02.275
You know,

960
00:48:02.295 --> 00:48:03.955
why are you using chemical fertilizer?

961
00:48:04.636 --> 00:48:07.136
Why don't you shift to manure?

962
00:48:08.037 --> 00:48:09.197
And they said that,

963
00:48:09.198 --> 00:48:09.417
you know,

964
00:48:09.418 --> 00:48:11.138
we don't put much of chemical fertilizer.

965
00:48:11.358 --> 00:48:13.939
We put one bag of chemical fertilizer.

966
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:15.599
But if we were to shift,

967
00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:17.620
and this is highly subsidized.

968
00:48:18.004 --> 00:48:19.165
Across the global south,

969
00:48:19.686 --> 00:48:21.668
fertilizer is one of the most subsidized.

970
00:48:21.669 --> 00:48:23.310
The fertilizer companies make all the money.

971
00:48:23.770 --> 00:48:24.631
It's not the farmers.

972
00:48:25.252 --> 00:48:26.533
And the government subsidized them.

973
00:48:27.474 --> 00:48:30.838
And this one bag of fertilizer,

974
00:48:31.318 --> 00:48:31.739
she said,

975
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:32.760
or they said,

976
00:48:33.120 --> 00:48:33.280
that,

977
00:48:33.300 --> 00:48:33.541
you know,

978
00:48:33.561 --> 00:48:36.704
if I was to replace it by organic manure,

979
00:48:37.605 --> 00:48:39.527
I would need to spend five times the amount.

980
00:48:41.588 --> 00:48:42.048
forgetting,

981
00:48:42.869 --> 00:48:44.791
because organic manure is not subsidized,

982
00:48:45.451 --> 00:48:47.593
whereas chemical fertilizer is subsidized.

983
00:48:48.073 --> 00:48:51.836
So I think we need to really analyze it also from the perspective of supporting it,

984
00:48:52.157 --> 00:48:52.577
that really,

985
00:48:52.717 --> 00:48:59.022
if the country or the government is interested in shift from conventional to regenerative,

986
00:48:59.883 --> 00:49:02.025
for environmental and so many other reasons,

987
00:49:02.065 --> 00:49:02.345
health,

988
00:49:03.046 --> 00:49:05.528
then you also need to shift your subsidies.

989
00:49:06.716 --> 00:49:06.976
You know,

990
00:49:07.036 --> 00:49:10.078
from remove or withdraw the fertilizer subsidy,

991
00:49:10.298 --> 00:49:10.979
for example,

992
00:49:12.360 --> 00:49:13.520
and let the farmer choose.

993
00:49:13.640 --> 00:49:13.921
You say,

994
00:49:14.081 --> 00:49:16.562
I'll give you a subsidy of this much money,

995
00:49:16.642 --> 00:49:17.483
whatever you choose.

996
00:49:17.943 --> 00:49:20.084
So then even if they're choosing the organic,

997
00:49:20.124 --> 00:49:20.685
which they will,

998
00:49:22.926 --> 00:49:23.146
you know,

999
00:49:23.166 --> 00:49:24.647
they're not going to be penalized.

1000
00:49:24.887 --> 00:49:29.450
And this is for a poor farmer or a woman farmer who doesn't have any income source.

1001
00:49:30.030 --> 00:49:32.112
So her husband may be migrant.

1002
00:49:32.912 --> 00:49:33.292
somewhere,

1003
00:49:33.952 --> 00:49:35.213
or he may be a farmer with her.

1004
00:49:35.773 --> 00:49:37.053
They don't have many savings.

1005
00:49:37.793 --> 00:49:39.114
They don't have a source of income,

1006
00:49:39.474 --> 00:49:45.156
which they can give to the agent to purchase whatever it is,

1007
00:49:45.256 --> 00:49:46.716
whoever is selling in the market.

1008
00:49:47.216 --> 00:49:50.837
We're talking about very low income households.

1009
00:49:51.097 --> 00:49:58.600
And one of the big problems here is actually credit and debt that you start taking from these agents,

1010
00:49:59.400 --> 00:49:59.640
you know.

1011
00:50:00.048 --> 00:50:00.668
loan sharks,

1012
00:50:00.708 --> 00:50:02.729
you'd start taking money on debt,

1013
00:50:03.049 --> 00:50:04.929
and then the debt keeps increasing,

1014
00:50:05.129 --> 00:50:06.930
and you're never really out of it.

1015
00:50:07.250 --> 00:50:15.432
So I think we have to remind ourselves that if you really want to shift towards regenerative agriculture,

1016
00:50:15.792 --> 00:50:16.493
there has to be,

1017
00:50:16.653 --> 00:50:18.693
especially in global south countries,

1018
00:50:19.173 --> 00:50:21.034
and I think it's very important,

1019
00:50:21.654 --> 00:50:22.214
apart from here,

1020
00:50:22.654 --> 00:50:22.894
I mean,

1021
00:50:22.895 --> 00:50:23.595
in global north,

1022
00:50:23.675 --> 00:50:24.495
it's very important,

1023
00:50:24.715 --> 00:50:28.476
because actually a lot of the planetary boundary transgression is coming from farming here.

1024
00:50:28.916 --> 00:50:32.978
and the practices of conventional farming in Europe and the Americas,

1025
00:50:33.259 --> 00:50:34.399
and North America particularly.

1026
00:50:34.940 --> 00:50:35.060
So

1027
00:50:35.740 --> 00:50:37.161
I think here it's an urgent problem.

1028
00:50:37.541 --> 00:50:41.944
But that doesn't mean that Global South should do nothing about it,

1029
00:50:41.984 --> 00:50:42.204
right?

1030
00:50:42.264 --> 00:50:44.546
And let Global North do everything.

1031
00:50:45.006 --> 00:50:47.227
And I think it's a really good question.

1032
00:50:47.327 --> 00:50:50.609
Because at some of these global meetings that I have attended,

1033
00:50:50.969 --> 00:50:51.210
you know,

1034
00:50:51.270 --> 00:50:54.972
I've heard people from Africa leaders saying

1035
00:50:55.312 --> 00:50:55.432
that,

1036
00:50:55.433 --> 00:50:55.672
you know,

1037
00:50:55.673 --> 00:51:00.794
we have to push for yields and increase in productivity at any cost,

1038
00:51:00.874 --> 00:51:03.635
because Africa has very low yields and productivity.

1039
00:51:03.755 --> 00:51:05.036
That's a reason for famines.

1040
00:51:05.416 --> 00:51:06.557
That's a reason for hunger.

1041
00:51:06.957 --> 00:51:13.019
And they're all pushing in the direction of industrial farming practices or conventional farming practices.

1042
00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:14.740
And you can't blame them,

1043
00:51:15.120 --> 00:51:15.820
because it's true.

1044
00:51:16.201 --> 00:51:19.262
When we look at the global distribution of fertilizer and pesticide,

1045
00:51:19.562 --> 00:51:21.122
Africa actually is using very little.

1046
00:51:22.583 --> 00:51:24.524
So you can't blame them for wanting to increase.

1047
00:51:25.600 --> 00:51:25.860
You know,

1048
00:51:26.761 --> 00:51:29.663
we can't say to them sitting in the global north that no,

1049
00:51:29.723 --> 00:51:31.364
you should not do this.

1050
00:51:31.704 --> 00:51:32.685
But at the same time,

1051
00:51:34.907 --> 00:51:38.529
they will follow the same cycle then if they get into that track.

1052
00:51:38.649 --> 00:51:41.251
And they are at a point when they're not yet using.

1053
00:51:41.891 --> 00:51:44.813
So this is a very good moment for,

1054
00:51:44.814 --> 00:51:45.034
you know,

1055
00:51:45.074 --> 00:51:46.435
states and governments to say that,

1056
00:51:46.455 --> 00:51:46.575
no,

1057
00:51:46.675 --> 00:51:47.776
don't go down that track.

1058
00:51:47.856 --> 00:51:53.219
Let's show a different pathway for sustainability because they don't have to reverse anything yet.

1059
00:51:54.340 --> 00:51:54.520
Yes.

1060
00:51:55.001 --> 00:51:55.121
Yeah,

1061
00:51:55.381 --> 00:52:01.385
a lot of the evidence we uncover on the podcast seems to suggest that actually farming in harmony with nature,

1062
00:52:01.485 --> 00:52:05.608
using the latest science in microbiology and so on and managing systems,

1063
00:52:06.349 --> 00:52:10.732
while more complex and adds complexity and things like that,

1064
00:52:12.533 --> 00:52:15.295
are definitely a better path to follow for the future,

1065
00:52:15.355 --> 00:52:18.558
especially in the face of climate change.

1066
00:52:20.479 --> 00:52:20.979
And therefore...

1067
00:52:22.176 --> 00:52:27.758
We shouldn't always talk about farming with nature as making a sacrifice.

1068
00:52:27.778 --> 00:52:28.478
Exactly.

1069
00:52:28.678 --> 00:52:28.878
Right.

1070
00:52:29.178 --> 00:52:29.618
Exactly.

1071
00:52:30.238 --> 00:52:30.658
And in fact,

1072
00:52:30.698 --> 00:52:32.399
here in the Norwich Research Park itself,

1073
00:52:32.419 --> 00:52:36.000
a lot of our scientists are now focusing much more on leguminous crops.

1074
00:52:36.600 --> 00:52:37.160
For instance,

1075
00:52:37.200 --> 00:52:39.821
moving away from the big rice,

1076
00:52:39.901 --> 00:52:40.121
wheat,

1077
00:52:40.221 --> 00:52:40.601
maize,

1078
00:52:42.142 --> 00:52:42.442
soya.

1079
00:52:42.882 --> 00:52:44.182
Because you realize that,

1080
00:52:44.183 --> 00:52:44.422
you know,

1081
00:52:44.462 --> 00:52:45.302
if farmers here,

1082
00:52:45.823 --> 00:52:46.983
like Hodmidods or,

1083
00:52:47.243 --> 00:52:47.463
you know,

1084
00:52:47.523 --> 00:52:48.503
Josiah and others,

1085
00:52:48.924 --> 00:52:50.464
if they're really wanting legumes.

1086
00:52:51.552 --> 00:52:55.034
What are the varieties of legumes that we have which are suitable to UK conditions,

1087
00:52:55.074 --> 00:52:55.695
for instance?

1088
00:52:55.975 --> 00:53:01.738
Because these legumes tend to grow much better in the tropics or in warmer climates.

1089
00:53:02.218 --> 00:53:02.759
So as I said,

1090
00:53:02.799 --> 00:53:04.219
some of them have tried to revive,

1091
00:53:04.460 --> 00:53:04.680
you know,

1092
00:53:05.200 --> 00:53:07.401
old English beans and peas.

1093
00:53:07.742 --> 00:53:11.724
But we really need to dig into that and to revive it because it's kind of gone.

1094
00:53:13.265 --> 00:53:19.900
And I think that can be a role of science or scientists to help with that process of recovery,

1095
00:53:20.020 --> 00:53:21.343
of selection and so on.

1096
00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:22.860
Absolutely,

1097
00:53:23.901 --> 00:53:24.021
yes.

1098
00:53:24.041 --> 00:53:29.925
Something that I haven't mentioned yet is that we're on a little trip here in the UK for nine days,

1099
00:53:30.125 --> 00:53:31.726
recording nine different episodes.

1100
00:53:32.307 --> 00:53:36.790
And we thought it'd be fun to ask every guest to come up with a question for the next one.

1101
00:53:37.350 --> 00:53:40.873
And yesterday we spoke to Professor Lynn Dix from Cambridge University.

1102
00:53:41.333 --> 00:53:43.654
And the question she asked for you was this.

1103
00:53:44.635 --> 00:53:45.256
Professor Rao.

1104
00:53:46.532 --> 00:53:46.993
Hi.

1105
00:53:47.053 --> 00:53:53.156
So I heard that you're working on the gender dimension of agriculture in low and middle income countries.

1106
00:53:53.977 --> 00:53:55.017
So here's my question.

1107
00:53:55.938 --> 00:54:02.142
I have heard through talking to other researchers that when you look at the way that women and men farm,

1108
00:54:04.103 --> 00:54:10.026
women tend to farm in a way that has more nature associated with it than men do in some parts of the world where this has been studied.

1109
00:54:10.347 --> 00:54:11.287
Have you ever heard of that?

1110
00:54:11.847 --> 00:54:12.448
Is that true?

1111
00:54:13.832 --> 00:54:14.032
Okay,

1112
00:54:14.112 --> 00:54:15.093
that's a great question,

1113
00:54:15.434 --> 00:54:15.754
actually.

1114
00:54:16.535 --> 00:54:16.795
And

1115
00:54:17.276 --> 00:54:20.118
I'll try not to make it too long winded.

1116
00:54:20.599 --> 00:54:22.721
I think there are multiple things here.

1117
00:54:23.001 --> 00:54:26.244
So within the sort of feminist discourse,

1118
00:54:26.284 --> 00:54:29.047
there has been a strand called ecofeminism,

1119
00:54:29.568 --> 00:54:31.810
which is really saying that women are closer to nature,

1120
00:54:33.131 --> 00:54:33.592
and so on.

1121
00:54:34.256 --> 00:54:53.554
naturally it's a natural process that women are closer to nature so i don't necessarily think that there's anything natural about women um being closer to nature but i think there is a reason in terms of you know divisions of labor and roles that women often end up performing roles

1122
00:54:53.974 --> 00:54:59.079
which are closer to nature like fetching water like you know cultivating crops

1123
00:55:00.368 --> 00:55:01.268
And so on and so on.

1124
00:55:01.288 --> 00:55:03.709
We're collecting firewood from the forest.

1125
00:55:04.049 --> 00:55:04.870
So while they do that,

1126
00:55:04.890 --> 00:55:05.770
they do foraging.

1127
00:55:06.190 --> 00:55:06.770
So actually,

1128
00:55:06.850 --> 00:55:10.472
because of women's roles in terms of caring for the household,

1129
00:55:11.492 --> 00:55:12.612
domestic reproduction,

1130
00:55:13.012 --> 00:55:14.013
cooking and feeding,

1131
00:55:14.373 --> 00:55:18.694
they end up doing tasks which are dependent on nature.

1132
00:55:19.334 --> 00:55:23.616
And because of this dependence on nature for the performance of their roles.

1133
00:55:24.544 --> 00:55:32.347
They are definitely much more aware of nature and the need to conserve and protect and preserve nature.

1134
00:55:32.707 --> 00:55:33.307
That's one.

1135
00:55:33.907 --> 00:55:34.907
The second point

1136
00:55:35.248 --> 00:55:37.688
I would like to say is really a resource issue,

1137
00:55:39.289 --> 00:55:48.152
which is a much more political economy kind of issue that women in general tend to have fewer resources available.

1138
00:55:48.892 --> 00:55:50.613
to them for whatever reason.

1139
00:55:50.833 --> 00:55:52.134
They may not be landowners.

1140
00:55:52.474 --> 00:55:53.914
They may not have access to credit.

1141
00:55:54.695 --> 00:55:55.555
If they are in jobs,

1142
00:55:55.556 --> 00:56:00.597
they may have less incomes than their husbands because of the gender pay gaps that we know about.

1143
00:56:00.917 --> 00:56:02.418
So for many structural reasons,

1144
00:56:02.838 --> 00:56:06.680
women don't have equal access to resources compared to men.

1145
00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:10.461
So as a consequence,

1146
00:56:10.741 --> 00:56:12.502
I think even when they are farming,

1147
00:56:13.022 --> 00:56:13.262
you know,

1148
00:56:13.323 --> 00:56:16.364
they may aspire to using more of these.

1149
00:56:17.749 --> 00:56:19.269
chemical fertilizers and so on,

1150
00:56:19.570 --> 00:56:22.111
but they just don't have the resources to do it.

1151
00:56:22.471 --> 00:56:24.933
They have to make good with what they have,

1152
00:56:25.193 --> 00:56:25.873
which is often,

1153
00:56:26.574 --> 00:56:26.814
you know,

1154
00:56:27.214 --> 00:56:32.978
organic manure from the one or two cows or buffaloes that they have at home or some goats they have at home or poultry.

1155
00:56:33.618 --> 00:56:37.300
So they then end up actually adopting,

1156
00:56:38.661 --> 00:56:40.202
not necessarily out of choice,

1157
00:56:40.882 --> 00:56:43.444
but actually due to lack of choice.

1158
00:56:44.428 --> 00:56:45.490
lack of resource access,

1159
00:56:45.810 --> 00:56:51.055
they end up adopting much more organic and regenerative approaches.

1160
00:56:53.218 --> 00:56:54.959
And the third element,

1161
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:55.720
I think,

1162
00:56:55.820 --> 00:56:57.302
is also in terms of,

1163
00:56:58.383 --> 00:56:58.643
you know,

1164
00:56:59.144 --> 00:57:06.671
thinking through sort of a justice kind of approach is also how much say or how much voice do women have in decision making.

1165
00:57:08.136 --> 00:57:10.798
So often they may be saying that we want something,

1166
00:57:10.858 --> 00:57:14.220
but since they don't have access to that resource themselves,

1167
00:57:14.221 --> 00:57:16.242
they can't go into the market and buy something.

1168
00:57:17.582 --> 00:57:18.003
And therefore,

1169
00:57:18.004 --> 00:57:18.783
if they're not heard,

1170
00:57:18.803 --> 00:57:19.824
they end up with whatever.

1171
00:57:21.185 --> 00:57:22.025
Having said that,

1172
00:57:22.646 --> 00:57:22.946
I think.

1173
00:57:22.966 --> 00:57:42.504
think that now with greater awareness and greater education like in the UK you know around community gardens market gardens which I spoke about and in other places that actually this is a good thing what women are doing you know not doing it because of disadvantage but what you're doing is actually very positive and how can we support it and strengthen it

1174
00:57:44.396 --> 00:57:48.279
And I think that's a really positive point.

1175
00:57:48.619 --> 00:57:53.942
So rather than assuming that women are in some natural biological way,

1176
00:57:54.462 --> 00:57:55.343
inclusive or,

1177
00:57:56.104 --> 00:57:56.344
you know,

1178
00:57:56.424 --> 00:57:58.385
nature positive or nature sensitive,

1179
00:57:58.605 --> 00:57:59.726
because not all women are.

1180
00:57:59.746 --> 00:57:59.986
I mean,

1181
00:58:00.286 --> 00:58:02.868
we have a lot of research and evidence which show that,

1182
00:58:03.168 --> 00:58:03.408
you know,

1183
00:58:03.409 --> 00:58:04.449
if women have the resources,

1184
00:58:04.450 --> 00:58:05.750
they can also go into cash crops.

1185
00:58:05.770 --> 00:58:07.170
They can also become entrepreneurs.

1186
00:58:07.871 --> 00:58:08.111
You know,

1187
00:58:08.112 --> 00:58:09.252
they can also exploit the...

1188
00:58:11.560 --> 00:58:14.121
But I think these two factors in terms of,

1189
00:58:14.841 --> 00:58:15.081
you know,

1190
00:58:15.121 --> 00:58:16.862
women's roles and responsibilities,

1191
00:58:16.922 --> 00:58:22.044
which makes them in some way more dependent on nature and therefore respected,

1192
00:58:22.144 --> 00:58:23.244
respectful of nature.

1193
00:58:23.664 --> 00:58:24.264
And secondly,

1194
00:58:25.025 --> 00:58:28.166
a very economic argument around women's lack of resources,

1195
00:58:28.866 --> 00:58:35.248
which kind of pushes them to manage to the best possible extent to innovate.

1196
00:58:36.212 --> 00:58:38.974
with very few external resources,

1197
00:58:39.014 --> 00:58:41.256
with only what's available to them domestically,

1198
00:58:41.796 --> 00:58:42.356
which is very,

1199
00:58:42.677 --> 00:58:46.419
then ends up being organic or regenerative.

1200
00:58:46.420 --> 00:58:46.619
You know,

1201
00:58:46.659 --> 00:58:47.900
they can use kitchen waste,

1202
00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:51.402
they can use cow dung manure and so on.

1203
00:58:52.283 --> 00:58:52.803
Fantastic.

1204
00:58:52.944 --> 00:58:53.904
Thank you so much,

1205
00:58:54.345 --> 00:58:54.585
Nitya,

1206
00:58:54.685 --> 00:58:55.225
for your time,

1207
00:58:55.226 --> 00:58:56.126
for your expertise.

1208
00:58:56.226 --> 00:58:57.487
It's been a great conversation.

1209
00:58:57.687 --> 00:58:58.547
I really appreciate it.

1210
00:58:58.567 --> 00:58:58.848
Thank you.

1211
00:58:59.208 --> 00:58:59.648
Thank you.

1212
00:59:00.008 --> 00:59:00.789
Thank you so much.

1213
00:59:02.530 --> 00:59:02.910
Thank you.

1214
00:59:05.870 --> 00:59:06.528
Thank you.