WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.876 --> 00:00:03.837 Welcome back to the Deep Seed podcast. 2 00:00:04.677 --> 00:00:07.739 Those of you who regularly follow the podcast will already know this, 3 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:08.839 but for the others, 4 00:00:08.979 --> 00:00:11.260 a quick reminder of my current situation. 5 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:15.042 With my wife Natalia and my little dog Ginzu, 6 00:00:15.582 --> 00:00:23.265 we decided to go traveling for seven months around Europe to visit some of the most advanced regenerative farmers and experts. 7 00:00:24.446 --> 00:00:28.648 We started about five weeks ago at a regenerative farm in Switzerland, 8 00:00:29.108 --> 00:00:29.668 then visited 9 00:00:29.868 --> 00:00:32.569 a regenerative vineyard in Provence in France, 10 00:00:33.309 --> 00:00:37.310 then a regenerative and organic almond farm in the southwest of France, 11 00:00:37.370 --> 00:00:38.631 not too far from Toulouse, 12 00:00:39.231 --> 00:00:43.832 and finally last week we visited a biodiversity expert in Biarritz. 13 00:00:45.053 --> 00:00:50.934 This is now week five of this journey and this time I'm visiting a farm in northern Spain in the 14 00:00:51.274 --> 00:00:52.235 Nevada region, 15 00:00:52.875 --> 00:00:56.136 about halfway between San Sebastian and Pamplona. 16 00:00:57.380 --> 00:01:00.562 The couple who started this farm here about 10 years ago are 17 00:01:01.002 --> 00:01:03.144 Megan Sapp and her husband Inigo. 18 00:01:04.384 --> 00:01:08.387 Megan is also well known for being a leading figure of the IATA, 19 00:01:08.747 --> 00:01:11.348 the European Alliance for Regenerative Agriculture, 20 00:01:12.009 --> 00:01:15.811 but today we focus on her role as a farmer and a horse breeder. 21 00:01:17.072 --> 00:01:21.715 So central to this discussion is the topic of holistic management of land, 22 00:01:22.115 --> 00:01:23.056 but using horses. 23 00:01:23.816 --> 00:01:27.858 We often hear about holistic grazing systems using cows, 24 00:01:28.098 --> 00:01:29.399 but not so much with horses. 25 00:01:29.779 --> 00:01:32.461 So this was an interesting case to explore for me. 26 00:01:33.441 --> 00:01:40.245 We also talk about food quality and nutrient density and also about other animals on the farm, 27 00:01:40.405 --> 00:01:41.706 like chickens, 28 00:01:41.866 --> 00:01:43.447 goats and dogs. 29 00:01:45.108 --> 00:01:52.492 The episode has been adapted so you can easily follow and understand everything in audio version right here on streaming platforms. 30 00:01:53.232 --> 00:01:58.493 but I definitely recommend watching the video version on YouTube for a more immersive experience. 31 00:01:59.394 --> 00:02:02.155 This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital. 32 00:02:02.915 --> 00:02:03.535 I am your host, 33 00:02:03.735 --> 00:02:04.175 Raphael, 34 00:02:04.755 --> 00:02:06.416 and this is the Deep Seat Podcast. 35 00:02:16.258 --> 00:02:16.899 Onigatōre, 36 00:02:17.359 --> 00:02:18.239 Curly Quick Ranch. 37 00:02:19.059 --> 00:02:19.599 I'm Megan. 38 00:02:20.260 --> 00:02:20.680 I'm Inigo. 39 00:02:21.900 --> 00:02:25.642 And we came here a bit over 10 years ago now, 40 00:02:26.502 --> 00:02:31.384 when we were on the look for a place to develop our energy project. 41 00:02:32.405 --> 00:02:36.667 We wanted to demonstrate sustainability in all of its senses. 42 00:02:36.967 --> 00:02:44.650 So we were looking for a farm or a piece of land where we could demonstrate off-grid living. 43 00:02:45.090 --> 00:02:48.672 So sustainable construction methods. 44 00:02:49.844 --> 00:02:51.405 how to produce all of our own energy, 45 00:02:51.805 --> 00:02:53.746 producing clean water, 46 00:02:54.026 --> 00:02:55.467 processing our wastewater, 47 00:02:56.647 --> 00:02:57.247 and of course, 48 00:02:57.627 --> 00:02:58.448 having the horses. 49 00:02:59.788 --> 00:03:00.289 That's the idea. 50 00:03:01.309 --> 00:03:03.530 Megan is a third generation horse breeder. 51 00:03:04.050 --> 00:03:05.591 So that's why everything started there. 52 00:03:06.311 --> 00:03:07.351 It all started with the horses? 53 00:03:07.532 --> 00:03:07.672 Yeah. 54 00:03:08.092 --> 00:03:08.292 Yes? 55 00:03:08.512 --> 00:03:08.632 Yeah. 56 00:03:09.052 --> 00:03:14.935 And then so from an energy project evolved into a whole complex ecosystem, 57 00:03:14.936 --> 00:03:15.515 a farm? 58 00:03:16.175 --> 00:03:16.335 Yeah, 59 00:03:16.515 --> 00:03:16.995 exactly. 60 00:03:17.175 --> 00:03:17.296 So, 61 00:03:17.297 --> 00:03:17.976 um... 62 00:03:18.852 --> 00:03:20.073 Somewhere around, 63 00:03:20.153 --> 00:03:20.273 what, 64 00:03:20.274 --> 00:03:21.434 2018, 65 00:03:21.494 --> 00:03:22.215 I guess it was, 66 00:03:22.415 --> 00:03:24.036 2018, 67 00:03:24.037 --> 00:03:26.298 through my university in the U.S. 68 00:03:26.458 --> 00:03:26.979 online, 69 00:03:27.079 --> 00:03:30.021 I took a course randomly on holistic management. 70 00:03:30.582 --> 00:03:38.709 And that's when we first discovered the methodology developed by Alan Savory and started to implement it here at the ranch. 71 00:03:39.249 --> 00:03:41.091 Then finding holistic management, 72 00:03:41.092 --> 00:03:41.531 I was like, 73 00:03:41.611 --> 00:03:41.811 this, 74 00:03:42.132 --> 00:03:42.332 this. 75 00:03:43.384 --> 00:03:45.445 puts together makes a lot of sense. 76 00:03:45.605 --> 00:03:49.287 Everything that I had learned over the past decade or so working in Africa, 77 00:03:49.367 --> 00:03:54.349 connecting sustainable energy with sustainable agriculture, 78 00:03:54.449 --> 00:03:55.169 food production, 79 00:03:55.309 --> 00:03:55.969 food security, 80 00:03:56.089 --> 00:03:57.270 sovereignty and all the rest. 81 00:03:57.910 --> 00:03:59.151 And it made sense. 82 00:03:59.152 --> 00:03:59.591 So we're like, 83 00:03:59.592 --> 00:03:59.711 well, 84 00:03:59.712 --> 00:04:01.752 why don't we start to implement it here at the ranch? 85 00:04:02.072 --> 00:04:03.933 And in the first year, 86 00:04:04.113 --> 00:04:08.455 we were able to drop the maintenance costs for the horses by 80% 87 00:04:09.595 --> 00:04:11.756 just because we flipped it on its head. 88 00:04:11.916 --> 00:04:16.197 So rather than managing the horses how I had been raised by my grandma, 89 00:04:17.058 --> 00:04:19.659 we started working with the natural cycles. 90 00:04:20.359 --> 00:04:24.680 And when we saw how quickly the costs dropped, 91 00:04:24.820 --> 00:04:25.181 we thought, 92 00:04:25.361 --> 00:04:25.561 oh, 93 00:04:26.301 --> 00:04:27.081 this makes sense. 94 00:04:28.202 --> 00:04:29.282 This has a lot of legs. 95 00:04:29.542 --> 00:04:31.443 So then I started training, 96 00:04:31.583 --> 00:04:32.043 training, 97 00:04:32.103 --> 00:04:32.783 more training. 98 00:04:33.383 --> 00:04:35.084 I became an accredited professional. 99 00:04:35.704 --> 00:04:37.185 I started getting into EOV, 100 00:04:37.585 --> 00:04:39.165 Ecological Outcome Verification, 101 00:04:39.166 --> 00:04:43.447 it was the methodology that we used for environment and monitoring in the SAVERY Institute. 102 00:04:43.887 --> 00:04:44.187 Then, 103 00:04:45.488 --> 00:04:46.368 with some colleagues, 104 00:04:46.428 --> 00:04:49.069 got together and we opened Hub del Norte, 105 00:04:49.409 --> 00:04:54.831 which is the accredited hub for the SAVERY Institute for Northern Spain and France. 106 00:04:55.572 --> 00:04:56.552 So now... 107 00:04:57.243 --> 00:05:00.224 The ranch is the learning farm for Habdel Norte. 108 00:05:01.144 --> 00:05:04.145 The big switch for us was the pandemic, 109 00:05:04.245 --> 00:05:06.005 as it was for many people. 110 00:05:07.486 --> 00:05:10.827 I had been traveling all around, 111 00:05:11.187 --> 00:05:13.067 doing all these renewable energy projects. 112 00:05:13.087 --> 00:05:15.388 We were doing a bit here with the horses, 113 00:05:15.648 --> 00:05:17.169 a couple of tomatoes, 114 00:05:17.170 --> 00:05:18.249 a couple of chickens, 115 00:05:18.649 --> 00:05:19.789 nothing very intense. 116 00:05:20.029 --> 00:05:20.509 Just for us. 117 00:05:20.629 --> 00:05:21.290 Just for us. 118 00:05:22.010 --> 00:05:23.550 And then the pandemic came, 119 00:05:24.110 --> 00:05:25.991 and everything came to a screeching halt. 120 00:05:26.327 --> 00:05:28.408 And we lost about a third of our revenue. 121 00:05:29.189 --> 00:05:29.749 And we went, 122 00:05:29.889 --> 00:05:30.069 oh, 123 00:05:30.269 --> 00:05:30.689 crap, 124 00:05:30.830 --> 00:05:31.690 what do we do now? 125 00:05:31.930 --> 00:05:32.450 And it was like, 126 00:05:32.530 --> 00:05:32.671 oh, 127 00:05:33.331 --> 00:05:33.891 we have a farm. 128 00:05:35.032 --> 00:05:37.393 And so that's when we started to scale up. 129 00:05:37.773 --> 00:05:39.594 So we're still very small, 130 00:05:40.375 --> 00:05:42.636 but we supply to 131 00:05:43.817 --> 00:05:45.698 30 families in San Sebastian, 132 00:05:45.778 --> 00:05:47.238 so about 45 minutes from here. 133 00:05:48.299 --> 00:05:54.722 We sell to an old people's home about 15 minutes from here. 134 00:05:55.903 --> 00:05:58.844 We sell eggs and vegetables all through the valley nearby. 135 00:06:00.144 --> 00:06:03.725 We're going to start selling to our restaurant in Pamplona later this year, 136 00:06:03.885 --> 00:06:05.045 which is very exciting. 137 00:06:06.046 --> 00:06:06.546 And of course, 138 00:06:06.547 --> 00:06:07.566 we produce about 70% 139 00:06:07.926 --> 00:06:08.706 of our own food. 140 00:06:09.527 --> 00:06:10.527 That's incredible. 141 00:06:10.587 --> 00:06:11.327 That's great. 142 00:06:12.127 --> 00:06:14.728 Before we start the farm visit, 143 00:06:15.208 --> 00:06:15.568 the tour, 144 00:06:16.188 --> 00:06:20.150 could you tell us a little bit about first where we are geographically? 145 00:06:20.570 --> 00:06:21.490 How big is the farm? 146 00:06:21.810 --> 00:06:24.031 What is it that you grow and that you do here? 147 00:06:24.071 --> 00:06:25.231 and just give us like a... 148 00:06:25.571 --> 00:06:26.091 an overview, 149 00:06:26.092 --> 00:06:27.932 a summary before we get deeper into it. 150 00:06:28.112 --> 00:06:28.652 Of course. 151 00:06:28.812 --> 00:06:33.393 So we're in the village of Escoz in the valley of Imots in Navarra. 152 00:06:33.613 --> 00:06:40.715 So we are about 45 minutes south of San Sebastian and half an hour north of Pamplona. 153 00:06:41.875 --> 00:06:49.037 Our valley has eight villages in it with a whopping total of 450 residents living here. 154 00:06:49.497 --> 00:06:52.978 Our farm itself is only about three and a half hectares, 155 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:54.919 most of which 156 00:06:55.139 --> 00:06:58.041 we use for pasture with the horses. 157 00:06:59.302 --> 00:07:03.985 We also have some goat lawnmowers that we help to support with the horses. 158 00:07:04.065 --> 00:07:07.007 We have about 80 laying hens. 159 00:07:07.067 --> 00:07:10.349 We do a couple hundred fattening chickens a year, 160 00:07:10.630 --> 00:07:12.391 15 fattening turkeys a year. 161 00:07:13.812 --> 00:07:16.454 And we have about 700 square meters of market garden, 162 00:07:16.674 --> 00:07:18.395 which thanks to this restaurant, 163 00:07:18.475 --> 00:07:20.676 we're going to be increasing to about a thousand. 164 00:07:21.037 --> 00:07:21.297 Yes? 165 00:07:21.777 --> 00:07:21.917 Yeah. 166 00:07:22.918 --> 00:07:23.198 Awesome. 167 00:07:23.218 --> 00:07:24.279 Let's start the visit. 168 00:07:26.175 --> 00:07:28.557 So that was it for the introduction of this episode. 169 00:07:28.977 --> 00:07:29.718 For the next part, 170 00:07:29.818 --> 00:07:34.942 I asked Megan to go in a little bit more detail into the topic of holistic horse management. 171 00:07:35.522 --> 00:07:35.962 Because 172 00:07:36.543 --> 00:07:43.388 I really wanted to understand in much more detail how it actually works and what the benefits are for the soil, 173 00:07:43.508 --> 00:07:45.950 for the ecosystem and for the farm in general. 174 00:07:47.091 --> 00:07:49.452 So within holistic management, 175 00:07:49.472 --> 00:07:52.875 we see livestock as tools for managing the ecosystem. 176 00:07:53.571 --> 00:08:00.355 So if we disconnect to the idea that horses must be free, 177 00:08:00.755 --> 00:08:02.216 running the range, 178 00:08:03.577 --> 00:08:06.978 typically overgrazing and destroying the land, 179 00:08:07.499 --> 00:08:13.062 and we flip it on its head and talk about how we can use them to manage the resources. 180 00:08:13.602 --> 00:08:13.862 I mean, 181 00:08:13.982 --> 00:08:17.744 really what we're looking to do is to ensure soil health, 182 00:08:17.864 --> 00:08:18.425 animal health, 183 00:08:18.545 --> 00:08:19.105 people health, 184 00:08:19.165 --> 00:08:19.425 right? 185 00:08:19.465 --> 00:08:20.946 And having all these work together. 186 00:08:21.466 --> 00:08:22.567 So if... 187 00:08:22.787 --> 00:08:28.111 The idea is that we're able to produce as much as our own forage as possible, 188 00:08:28.572 --> 00:08:29.613 reduce our costs, 189 00:08:29.813 --> 00:08:30.073 right? 190 00:08:32.115 --> 00:08:33.756 To boost that forage production, 191 00:08:33.936 --> 00:08:35.617 we need to consume the forage. 192 00:08:35.918 --> 00:08:40.261 So we need to understand how and when to use the animals, 193 00:08:40.401 --> 00:08:41.682 when they should be eating, 194 00:08:41.822 --> 00:08:44.645 how long they should be occupying a space, 195 00:08:44.745 --> 00:08:49.349 how long the pasture then needs to rest afterwards. 196 00:08:50.109 --> 00:08:50.770 With horses, 197 00:08:51.871 --> 00:08:51.991 we... 198 00:08:52.531 --> 00:08:57.174 I've seen that they are a bit more excitable than your typical cows or sheep. 199 00:08:57.694 --> 00:09:01.196 So we have to take into consideration their behavior, 200 00:09:01.316 --> 00:09:04.598 their natural way of interacting. 201 00:09:05.718 --> 00:09:08.500 We also have to take into consideration the context. 202 00:09:08.640 --> 00:09:09.280 So here, 203 00:09:10.261 --> 00:09:14.683 we're very blessed to be in a very wet and rainy kind of place. 204 00:09:14.703 --> 00:09:19.266 We have a 1,200 millimeters per year average rainfall. 205 00:09:20.426 --> 00:09:21.147 But as we know... 206 00:09:22.247 --> 00:09:23.988 with the way the ecosystem works, 207 00:09:24.028 --> 00:09:25.850 it's not how much rain you get, 208 00:09:25.950 --> 00:09:27.531 it's how often you get it. 209 00:09:28.112 --> 00:09:28.852 And lately, 210 00:09:29.092 --> 00:09:31.274 we've been getting it an awful lot. 211 00:09:31.814 --> 00:09:32.675 So thankfully, 212 00:09:32.755 --> 00:09:34.957 because of the way we manage our pastures, 213 00:09:35.317 --> 00:09:37.739 the water infiltrates and is retained. 214 00:09:37.899 --> 00:09:41.661 And then it's available for when the sun comes out, 215 00:09:41.862 --> 00:09:43.083 then it starts to grow again. 216 00:09:43.343 --> 00:09:49.087 So we've had a lot of issues in this area because there's been so much rain in the last several months. 217 00:09:49.671 --> 00:09:55.934 that those who are managing their land conventionally with a lot of tillage or overgrazing their land, 218 00:09:56.314 --> 00:09:58.315 when it rains then the water rushes off. 219 00:09:58.735 --> 00:10:08.100 Ours thankfully infiltrates and we have had no runoff that we have been able to detect even when we've had days with 130 or 140 millimeters in 220 00:10:08.580 --> 00:10:09.420 24 hours. 221 00:10:10.081 --> 00:10:15.143 But it's because we're paying attention to how the animals are interacting with the land. 222 00:10:15.887 --> 00:10:16.568 As we've seen, 223 00:10:16.728 --> 00:10:17.729 they're very excitable, 224 00:10:17.749 --> 00:10:19.730 the way their hooves interact with the soil. 225 00:10:21.332 --> 00:10:21.992 They can, 226 00:10:22.833 --> 00:10:24.734 if you leave them in a place too long, 227 00:10:25.215 --> 00:10:26.075 cause damage. 228 00:10:27.176 --> 00:10:31.780 What we do is make sure that we have fast movements year-round, 229 00:10:31.880 --> 00:10:34.282 which means that they'll never be in a place, 230 00:10:34.382 --> 00:10:35.543 when it's raining like this, 231 00:10:35.783 --> 00:10:41.068 never be in a place more than 12 to 24 hours because it's too much animal impact. 232 00:10:41.088 --> 00:10:42.669 So that's what we're trying to manage. 233 00:10:43.269 --> 00:10:45.051 So what we've been able to do... 234 00:10:45.471 --> 00:10:49.835 is taking into consideration that we have a lot of slope in most of our pastures. 235 00:10:49.895 --> 00:10:51.996 This is just about the flattest one that we have. 236 00:10:52.076 --> 00:10:53.538 We have up to 16% 237 00:10:53.658 --> 00:10:53.998 slope. 238 00:10:55.199 --> 00:10:59.643 So making sure that they're moving and never in one place for too long. 239 00:10:59.703 --> 00:11:08.810 And what that does is it helps to cycle the biomass that's already there so that those nutrients are then available for the plants to grow back again. 240 00:11:08.950 --> 00:11:11.152 So depending on the time of year, 241 00:11:12.713 --> 00:11:14.875 we can bring the horses back. 242 00:11:15.175 --> 00:11:15.435 in 243 00:11:15.935 --> 00:11:18.996 30 days or 45 days or 60 or 90, 244 00:11:19.076 --> 00:11:19.616 depending. 245 00:11:20.277 --> 00:11:29.479 So what we've managed to do by managing holistically with the horses for the past six years is we've increased our productivity by about a third, 246 00:11:30.180 --> 00:11:33.461 which means that that is less hay than we need to buy. 247 00:11:34.021 --> 00:11:35.041 When we say productivity, 248 00:11:35.101 --> 00:11:36.922 you mean the growth of the... 249 00:11:37.182 --> 00:11:37.742 Yeah, 250 00:11:37.802 --> 00:11:39.302 productivity of the pastures. 251 00:11:39.622 --> 00:11:41.323 So we're able to increase... 252 00:11:42.299 --> 00:11:47.282 how much hay production or how much forage production we have for the animals. 253 00:11:47.842 --> 00:11:49.523 We would like to have much more, 254 00:11:50.043 --> 00:11:51.184 but the truth is, 255 00:11:51.324 --> 00:11:54.766 is that if we take into consideration the slope and the moisture, 256 00:11:55.747 --> 00:12:02.910 we don't have enough land in order to be giving the proper textbook amount of rest to all of these pastures. 257 00:12:02.970 --> 00:12:08.654 So we've been in negotiations with the neighbors in order to get a couple more hectares, 258 00:12:08.734 --> 00:12:10.955 which will allow us to do that even better. 259 00:12:11.567 --> 00:12:21.574 and increase our biomass yields even more and hopefully get to the point where we can reduce or even eliminate our hay purchases. 260 00:12:23.215 --> 00:12:23.435 Okay, 261 00:12:23.515 --> 00:12:28.018 so now that we understand a little bit better what holistic horse management is, 262 00:12:28.599 --> 00:12:38.565 we decided to go and sit in the middle of a pasture close to the soil to discuss the positive impacts that this management has had on soil health, 263 00:12:38.886 --> 00:12:39.806 on biodiversity, 264 00:12:39.986 --> 00:12:40.747 on the ecosystem. 265 00:12:40.967 --> 00:12:41.427 in general? 266 00:12:42.448 --> 00:12:42.989 Moles. 267 00:12:44.390 --> 00:12:47.773 The great thing about moles is what they do is they dig up your soil. 268 00:12:48.694 --> 00:12:51.816 So what we're able to see then, 269 00:12:52.417 --> 00:12:52.977 real easy, 270 00:12:53.057 --> 00:12:54.499 without having to get a shovel, 271 00:12:55.980 --> 00:12:56.981 is the soil structure, 272 00:12:57.561 --> 00:12:57.842 right? 273 00:12:58.462 --> 00:13:00.143 So you can see how crumbly it is. 274 00:13:00.204 --> 00:13:00.384 Look, 275 00:13:00.404 --> 00:13:01.465 I even grabbed a worm. 276 00:13:01.466 --> 00:13:03.126 Good. 277 00:13:03.127 --> 00:13:03.446 Beautiful. 278 00:13:03.907 --> 00:13:04.127 Yeah. 279 00:13:05.868 --> 00:13:08.611 How different is that soil to when you... 280 00:13:09.071 --> 00:13:11.032 arrived here and you started this management? 281 00:13:11.673 --> 00:13:13.054 So when we first got here, 282 00:13:13.594 --> 00:13:20.259 it had been managed by the local dairy co-op for several decades, 283 00:13:20.299 --> 00:13:22.540 which meant a lot of tillage, 284 00:13:23.461 --> 00:13:24.341 tractors, 285 00:13:25.242 --> 00:13:26.103 dairy slurry, 286 00:13:27.203 --> 00:13:27.704 all the rest. 287 00:13:27.784 --> 00:13:35.909 So just in the same way that we take a lot of care with the moisture of the soil when we put the horses in, 288 00:13:36.490 --> 00:13:38.251 and the impact they're going to have. 289 00:13:38.695 --> 00:13:41.597 they did not take care when they were coming in with the tractor. 290 00:13:41.657 --> 00:13:44.258 So we had extreme compaction. 291 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:52.042 So much so that the year after when we no longer had the dairy managing the land and we took over, 292 00:13:53.383 --> 00:13:58.446 we had all of this was two meter high thistles. 293 00:13:59.286 --> 00:13:59.927 And thistles, 294 00:13:59.967 --> 00:14:02.428 we didn't know at the time because we were still learning, 295 00:14:03.108 --> 00:14:05.570 thistles decompact the soil. 296 00:14:05.630 --> 00:14:06.750 They have their deep 297 00:14:08.251 --> 00:14:10.573 pivoting route that breaks things open. 298 00:14:11.633 --> 00:14:14.055 All we saw was we didn't have forage for the horses, 299 00:14:14.795 --> 00:14:15.075 right? 300 00:14:15.615 --> 00:14:16.756 But if you can imagine, 301 00:14:16.776 --> 00:14:17.136 we had, 302 00:14:17.216 --> 00:14:17.336 what, 303 00:14:17.437 --> 00:14:18.397 two and a half hectares, 304 00:14:18.477 --> 00:14:18.997 basically, 305 00:14:19.138 --> 00:14:20.318 of a thistle forest. 306 00:14:21.299 --> 00:14:23.080 So that was, 307 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:23.400 what, 308 00:14:23.540 --> 00:14:24.160 eight years ago, 309 00:14:24.521 --> 00:14:24.821 I guess, 310 00:14:24.822 --> 00:14:25.461 at this point? 311 00:14:25.962 --> 00:14:26.102 Yeah, 312 00:14:26.202 --> 00:14:27.342 so that was eight years ago. 313 00:14:29.464 --> 00:14:30.344 So again, 314 00:14:30.704 --> 00:14:33.206 not understanding how the ecosystem works, 315 00:14:33.286 --> 00:14:35.067 not knowing regenerative agriculture. 316 00:14:35.631 --> 00:14:38.213 We did what any normal person would do, 317 00:14:38.413 --> 00:14:39.794 which is come in with a tractor. 318 00:14:39.974 --> 00:14:43.897 We got our neighbors to come in with a tractor and cut down the thistles. 319 00:14:44.098 --> 00:14:46.459 What we didn't understand was by doing that, 320 00:14:47.160 --> 00:14:49.402 we were going counter to what we want, 321 00:14:49.422 --> 00:14:51.123 which is to decompact the soil. 322 00:14:51.888 --> 00:14:54.671 So they came in and so it took a bit longer. 323 00:14:54.991 --> 00:14:57.873 But we were able to bring in the horses already that next year. 324 00:14:58.654 --> 00:15:00.916 And the first couple of years with the horses, 325 00:15:01.016 --> 00:15:04.339 we did what we call continuous grazing, 326 00:15:04.539 --> 00:15:05.740 like what many people do, 327 00:15:05.880 --> 00:15:09.603 which is what ends up with overgrazing in many cases. 328 00:15:10.144 --> 00:15:19.592 But having horses overgrazing was still a huge improvement to having tractors work in the land at the wrong time. 329 00:15:20.664 --> 00:15:21.345 on this slope. 330 00:15:21.465 --> 00:15:23.967 So it got better, 331 00:15:24.127 --> 00:15:24.767 it got better. 332 00:15:25.608 --> 00:15:26.708 There was more forage, 333 00:15:26.769 --> 00:15:27.829 there was less thistle. 334 00:15:28.270 --> 00:15:31.212 But then when we started implementing holistic management, 335 00:15:31.272 --> 00:15:32.152 so six years ago, 336 00:15:32.272 --> 00:15:33.813 so that would have been two years later, 337 00:15:33.933 --> 00:15:35.615 doing the holistic plant grazing, 338 00:15:36.395 --> 00:15:40.058 doing the animal impact at the right time, 339 00:15:40.059 --> 00:15:40.978 at the right moment, 340 00:15:40.979 --> 00:15:42.119 for the right reasons, 341 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:49.044 we made a huge change in a very short amount of I think it was only probably two years. 342 00:15:49.084 --> 00:15:49.264 Yeah 343 00:15:50.604 --> 00:15:52.025 So now as you can see here, 344 00:15:52.165 --> 00:15:53.645 we have no thistle. 345 00:15:55.206 --> 00:15:58.666 We'll go down further on the hill where you can see that, 346 00:15:58.706 --> 00:15:58.967 you know, 347 00:15:59.067 --> 00:15:59.767 you'll get a couple, 348 00:16:00.167 --> 00:16:00.427 you know, 349 00:16:00.587 --> 00:16:01.887 one or two or three or four, 350 00:16:02.368 --> 00:16:12.170 which is perfectly fine because that's part of the diversity that we're looking for because those indicator plants are bringing up nutrients to the surface that, 351 00:16:12.370 --> 00:16:12.590 you know, 352 00:16:12.610 --> 00:16:15.171 a lot of the more superficial plants or the perennials, 353 00:16:15.191 --> 00:16:17.212 which is what we're trying to transition towards. 354 00:16:18.332 --> 00:16:20.053 wouldn't be able to get to. 355 00:16:20.233 --> 00:16:22.255 So it all works together. 356 00:16:22.355 --> 00:16:23.376 It all balances out. 357 00:16:24.296 --> 00:16:24.657 But yeah, 358 00:16:25.157 --> 00:16:28.860 we're quite happy with what we've been able to do in a pretty short amount of time. 359 00:16:29.800 --> 00:16:30.061 Sweet, 360 00:16:30.121 --> 00:16:30.501 amazing. 361 00:16:30.541 --> 00:16:34.484 And do you have any sort of data maybe to illustrate this? 362 00:16:34.485 --> 00:16:37.586 They haven't been able to do soil sampling and things like that. 363 00:16:37.746 --> 00:16:38.307 Of course. 364 00:16:38.507 --> 00:16:43.110 So we were one of the first farms to be 365 00:16:43.751 --> 00:16:45.632 EOV monitored in Spain. 366 00:16:46.436 --> 00:16:50.758 So this will be the fourth year that we do the monitoring. 367 00:16:53.499 --> 00:16:54.159 In June, 368 00:16:54.179 --> 00:16:54.840 we're going to do it. 369 00:16:56.020 --> 00:16:56.900 When we do EOV, 370 00:16:57.461 --> 00:16:59.702 there's annual monitoring that we do, 371 00:16:59.882 --> 00:17:00.822 short-term monitoring, 372 00:17:00.902 --> 00:17:02.343 and then there's long-term monitoring. 373 00:17:02.863 --> 00:17:04.123 So every five years. 374 00:17:04.624 --> 00:17:07.665 So when we did the first baseline four years ago, 375 00:17:08.805 --> 00:17:12.247 that's when we did the soil monitoring. 376 00:17:12.807 --> 00:17:14.048 And at that point, 377 00:17:14.328 --> 00:17:14.928 we had... 378 00:17:15.288 --> 00:17:15.949 pretty high. 379 00:17:15.969 --> 00:17:19.752 We had four and a half to five and a half percent soil organic carbon, 380 00:17:20.733 --> 00:17:21.793 depending on where you were. 381 00:17:22.354 --> 00:17:29.620 That's not surprising considering how many years this was basically a dairy slurry dumping ground. 382 00:17:31.542 --> 00:17:37.767 What is going to be really interesting is when we do that big monitoring again in two years, 383 00:17:38.267 --> 00:17:41.250 and we'll see what those changes of not just the soil carbon, 384 00:17:41.750 --> 00:17:43.812 but also the biodiversity of plants. 385 00:17:43.932 --> 00:17:45.513 that's what we're really looking for. 386 00:17:45.593 --> 00:17:48.996 Because if we think that when the dairy was managing this land, 387 00:17:49.577 --> 00:17:52.800 it was being seeded with annual ryegrass, 388 00:17:52.860 --> 00:17:54.561 which is what they would use for silage. 389 00:17:55.502 --> 00:17:56.663 As you can see here, 390 00:17:57.003 --> 00:18:00.807 we've got a whole lot more plants growing on than just, 391 00:18:01.247 --> 00:18:01.667 in fact, 392 00:18:01.927 --> 00:18:06.371 very little of what we have here is annual ryegrass. 393 00:18:07.552 --> 00:18:11.676 So we've got at least eight or nine plant families just in this. 394 00:18:12.352 --> 00:18:12.612 you know, 395 00:18:12.732 --> 00:18:13.653 square meter or so. 396 00:18:14.294 --> 00:18:24.924 Having a wide diversity of plants in your pastures is really important because on one hand you're providing a varied diet for the horses so that depending on their health needs, 397 00:18:24.944 --> 00:18:26.465 their nutritional needs at the time, 398 00:18:26.986 --> 00:18:29.728 they have available what they need when they need it. 399 00:18:29.989 --> 00:18:31.010 And they sort of know, 400 00:18:31.150 --> 00:18:31.690 the horses, 401 00:18:31.790 --> 00:18:34.153 what to pick and what to eat depending on what their needs are? 402 00:18:34.433 --> 00:18:35.014 Absolutely, 403 00:18:35.094 --> 00:18:36.195 but not just horses. 404 00:18:36.395 --> 00:18:37.336 All animals know. 405 00:18:37.760 --> 00:18:38.581 Just humans, 406 00:18:38.641 --> 00:18:39.301 we know too. 407 00:18:39.621 --> 00:18:43.704 If we see a strawberry that smells sweet and tastes sweet, 408 00:18:43.744 --> 00:18:47.326 we know that that's much different than a strawberry that tastes like water, 409 00:18:47.447 --> 00:18:48.187 tastes like nothing. 410 00:18:48.287 --> 00:18:49.268 Same thing with tomatoes, 411 00:18:49.348 --> 00:18:50.549 same thing with anything else. 412 00:18:51.129 --> 00:19:00.175 We have in our monkey brain this inherent understanding of what is nutrient dense and what are empty calories. 413 00:19:00.355 --> 00:19:02.397 And so the animals do that as well. 414 00:19:02.977 --> 00:19:03.697 Unfortunately, 415 00:19:03.717 --> 00:19:07.360 there's a lot of domesticated breeds that have... 416 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:13.191 been transitioned over the years or into housed or stabled conditions, 417 00:19:13.531 --> 00:19:20.164 that then you try to bring them back out to the land and they don't necessarily understand what's going on here. 418 00:19:20.888 --> 00:19:28.874 Which is why when we're looking at doing pastured beef or pork or sheep or cows or whatever, 419 00:19:28.934 --> 00:19:36.020 we're looking for those more rustic breeds that still have that natural instinct that allows them to then, 420 00:19:36.941 --> 00:19:37.181 you know, 421 00:19:37.361 --> 00:19:39.683 if we think of a food as medicine sense, 422 00:19:39.703 --> 00:19:41.344 it allows them to self-medicate. 423 00:19:41.345 --> 00:19:44.306 It gives them the nutrients they need at the right time. 424 00:19:44.987 --> 00:19:45.928 And in terms of... 425 00:19:47.016 --> 00:19:49.757 soil health and biodiversity and all of that, 426 00:19:50.257 --> 00:19:51.197 this also comes in too. 427 00:19:51.757 --> 00:19:52.338 Absolutely. 428 00:19:52.498 --> 00:19:54.798 So by having diverse plants, 429 00:19:56.099 --> 00:20:01.220 they're photosynthesizing and then they're sending down into the soil different exudants, 430 00:20:01.320 --> 00:20:02.921 different kinds of carbon. 431 00:20:03.361 --> 00:20:08.462 So whether it's carbohydrates or it's sugars or it's amino acids or whatever. 432 00:20:09.422 --> 00:20:13.484 And by having those different carbon forms sent down into the soil, 433 00:20:14.004 --> 00:20:15.024 that is then attracted. 434 00:20:15.424 --> 00:20:16.865 the different microbiology, 435 00:20:16.925 --> 00:20:22.729 which is what we need in order to make sure that these plants that grow are then as nutrient dense as possible. 436 00:20:22.749 --> 00:20:31.054 Because you have those relationships between the bacteria and the fungi and the macrofauna that's in the soil and everything's all working together. 437 00:20:31.154 --> 00:20:34.676 So what it does is it helps us to shift our, 438 00:20:35.576 --> 00:20:37.638 through the succession of species, 439 00:20:37.698 --> 00:20:41.580 it helps us to shift to ever more diversity and ever more resilience. 440 00:20:43.592 --> 00:20:47.853 Just a quick pause to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast, 441 00:20:47.893 --> 00:20:49.314 and that's Soil Capital. 442 00:20:50.214 --> 00:20:57.136 One of the biggest levers to enable farmers to transition towards regenerative agriculture is financial incentives. 443 00:20:57.716 --> 00:21:00.077 And that's essentially what Soil Capital does. 444 00:21:00.817 --> 00:21:05.238 They financially reward farmers who improve things like soil health and biodiversity. 445 00:21:05.738 --> 00:21:06.458 And by doing that, 446 00:21:06.558 --> 00:21:10.019 they contribute to accelerating the transition to regenerative agriculture. 447 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:12.000 They're a really cool company. 448 00:21:12.380 --> 00:21:16.481 I love what they're doing and I'm super proud to be partnering with them for the podcast. 449 00:21:19.042 --> 00:21:29.265 I just want to brag a bit on my fava beans because we have for a number of years now been guardians for the local seed network. 450 00:21:29.985 --> 00:21:39.168 And these fava beans are a local variety that we have been keeping seed for six years. 451 00:21:40.028 --> 00:21:42.771 One of the biggest challenges for fava beans in this area, 452 00:21:43.371 --> 00:21:46.994 which is one of our star products because they are so good, 453 00:21:47.354 --> 00:21:48.175 very high quality, 454 00:21:48.335 --> 00:21:49.436 we sell out every year, 455 00:21:50.097 --> 00:21:53.099 is that because they're a spring crop, 456 00:21:53.539 --> 00:21:55.761 it's very common for hailstorms. 457 00:21:56.322 --> 00:21:59.985 And there have been years where when hailstorms come, 458 00:22:00.305 --> 00:22:03.527 it knocks off all the flowers and destroys our entire crop. 459 00:22:04.088 --> 00:22:04.628 However, 460 00:22:05.289 --> 00:22:08.932 last year was the first time that... 461 00:22:09.232 --> 00:22:10.893 We had a hailstorm. 462 00:22:10.994 --> 00:22:11.354 In fact, 463 00:22:11.355 --> 00:22:13.215 we had three hailstorms in one day, 464 00:22:13.736 --> 00:22:16.919 which in other years would have knocked off all of the flowers, 465 00:22:16.979 --> 00:22:19.801 but we didn't lose a single one and we had a full crop. 466 00:22:20.382 --> 00:22:31.671 And I could attribute this absolutely to the health of our soils and making sure that these plants that are not only adapted to the local conditions, 467 00:22:31.871 --> 00:22:35.495 but the health of the soil is making sure that they are strong enough to... 468 00:22:37.316 --> 00:22:40.578 restrain or to continue to survive after those kinds of storms. 469 00:22:40.819 --> 00:22:41.039 Okay. 470 00:22:41.139 --> 00:22:42.480 And what's the secret for your, 471 00:22:42.860 --> 00:22:44.141 the health of that soil here? 472 00:22:44.381 --> 00:22:44.721 Haha. 473 00:22:45.202 --> 00:22:46.282 So as you can see, 474 00:22:46.382 --> 00:22:47.523 we have raised beds. 475 00:22:48.664 --> 00:22:54.068 That was because this area wasn't flat when we bought it. 476 00:22:54.188 --> 00:22:56.370 This is all kind of fake in a sense, 477 00:22:56.410 --> 00:22:58.031 because as I had mentioned before, 478 00:22:58.051 --> 00:22:59.212 we have a 16% 479 00:22:59.352 --> 00:22:59.732 slope. 480 00:23:00.232 --> 00:23:03.254 But in order for us to have some usable land, 481 00:23:04.155 --> 00:23:05.296 early on we did 482 00:23:05.496 --> 00:23:08.938 this excavation work to make sure that we had terraces. 483 00:23:09.498 --> 00:23:14.960 So that means that inherently the soil is quote unquote compacted. 484 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.262 So rather than working directly into the soil, 485 00:23:18.302 --> 00:23:19.142 which would have taken many, 486 00:23:19.202 --> 00:23:19.362 many, 487 00:23:19.422 --> 00:23:19.622 many, 488 00:23:19.682 --> 00:23:21.883 many years in order to get it productive, 489 00:23:22.344 --> 00:23:24.965 what we did was we built these raised beds, 490 00:23:25.465 --> 00:23:28.987 which are connected to the soil. 491 00:23:29.067 --> 00:23:32.128 They've got an anti-mole. 492 00:23:32.564 --> 00:23:35.685 netting to make sure the moles don't come up and destroy the crop. 493 00:23:36.285 --> 00:23:40.766 And then we put large wood trunks and branches, 494 00:23:41.446 --> 00:23:50.329 then some leaves from the forest next door that then provided the microbiology to decompose those trees from the local environment. 495 00:23:50.769 --> 00:23:56.891 Then we have a thick layer of worm casings and then compost. 496 00:23:57.051 --> 00:23:59.111 And then depending on the crop and the season, 497 00:23:59.591 --> 00:24:01.792 we will then put newspaper or 498 00:24:02.372 --> 00:24:04.854 cardboard and straw on top. 499 00:24:05.894 --> 00:24:07.976 And then we do no dig at all. 500 00:24:08.116 --> 00:24:09.316 So no movements, 501 00:24:11.157 --> 00:24:12.158 no hand machines, 502 00:24:12.178 --> 00:24:12.698 no nothing. 503 00:24:12.778 --> 00:24:13.939 Everything is just on top, 504 00:24:14.019 --> 00:24:14.419 on top, 505 00:24:14.479 --> 00:24:14.880 on top. 506 00:24:14.980 --> 00:24:18.362 So every year we add another layer of compost. 507 00:24:18.363 --> 00:24:19.622 The compost that we use, 508 00:24:19.863 --> 00:24:20.563 we produce. 509 00:24:21.347 --> 00:24:22.648 from our different animals. 510 00:24:23.288 --> 00:24:28.291 And then we just do that newspaper and straw on top. 511 00:24:28.811 --> 00:24:31.853 And so everything is all working and cycling together. 512 00:24:34.635 --> 00:24:34.875 Okay, 513 00:24:35.055 --> 00:24:36.155 so next, 514 00:24:36.536 --> 00:24:42.499 we want to check out the chickens and the goats to better understand their role in this complex farm ecosystem. 515 00:24:44.360 --> 00:24:45.601 When we first got chickens, 516 00:24:46.001 --> 00:24:46.621 we got six, 517 00:24:47.122 --> 00:24:48.002 like many people do. 518 00:24:48.422 --> 00:24:49.043 And then 519 00:24:49.643 --> 00:24:55.347 We got 12 and then the pandemic hit and we got 80 and then we got 100. 520 00:24:55.547 --> 00:24:58.469 And so now we fluctuate between about 80 and 100. 521 00:24:59.029 --> 00:25:01.211 We're really focused on happy chickens. 522 00:25:01.771 --> 00:25:03.012 We have a mixed flock, 523 00:25:03.412 --> 00:25:06.674 so mixed breeds and mixed ages. 524 00:25:07.475 --> 00:25:09.036 So some of the chickens we have here, 525 00:25:09.236 --> 00:25:11.057 even though most of them are industrial breeds, 526 00:25:11.878 --> 00:25:12.418 they're three, 527 00:25:12.518 --> 00:25:13.619 four or five years old. 528 00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:17.622 We have mixed breeds because we market rainbow eggs, 529 00:25:17.802 --> 00:25:19.163 which in the US is... 530 00:25:19.459 --> 00:25:24.302 pretty common at a homestead level but in Spain nobody does it. 531 00:25:24.402 --> 00:25:25.982 So we have green eggs, 532 00:25:26.062 --> 00:25:26.643 blue eggs, 533 00:25:27.223 --> 00:25:27.943 dark brown eggs, 534 00:25:28.003 --> 00:25:28.564 white eggs, 535 00:25:28.604 --> 00:25:31.945 tan eggs and so we sell rainbow chickens and our clients love them. 536 00:25:32.206 --> 00:25:42.451 So you mean that when you sell the egg boxes there's a rainbow of colors inside of the box and it's like you open it up and you see all these different colored eggs rather than the standard usual. 537 00:25:43.011 --> 00:25:45.393 Just exactly the same egg that you find at the end of the supermarket. 538 00:25:45.493 --> 00:25:45.933 Exactly. 539 00:25:45.993 --> 00:25:46.113 So, 540 00:25:46.253 --> 00:25:46.533 you know, 541 00:25:46.573 --> 00:25:47.314 it's a bit kitschy, 542 00:25:47.514 --> 00:25:48.174 but you know, 543 00:25:50.336 --> 00:25:50.736 it's pretty, 544 00:25:50.916 --> 00:25:51.556 people like it, 545 00:25:51.636 --> 00:25:54.978 but really people come to us for our eggs because of the quality of the eggs. 546 00:25:55.639 --> 00:25:58.881 And how do you explain the high quality of the eggs? 547 00:25:59.761 --> 00:26:04.705 That absolutely we attribute to them having a high protein diet, 548 00:26:05.505 --> 00:26:07.086 foraging out in the grass. 549 00:26:07.326 --> 00:26:08.467 Where does that protein come from? 550 00:26:09.247 --> 00:26:14.308 It comes from the insects and the worms and the bugs and everything that they're eating when they're out in pasture. 551 00:26:14.569 --> 00:26:14.769 Okay, 552 00:26:14.829 --> 00:26:18.610 so because they're on a healthy pasture and because you're doing this sort of plant grazing with them, 553 00:26:18.830 --> 00:26:22.311 the pasture itself is becoming healthier and healthier. 554 00:26:22.331 --> 00:26:24.011 It attracts more and more insects. 555 00:26:24.631 --> 00:26:28.152 And so there's more of these insects and more protein for them to eat. 556 00:26:28.172 --> 00:26:30.913 And therefore the egg quality is higher. 557 00:26:31.413 --> 00:26:32.753 And for us, 558 00:26:33.714 --> 00:26:35.954 eggs are what we refer to as the entry drug. 559 00:26:36.494 --> 00:26:38.235 Because people come to us for eggs. 560 00:26:38.455 --> 00:26:39.356 And then they ask us, 561 00:26:39.596 --> 00:26:40.516 what else do you have? 562 00:26:41.557 --> 00:26:44.438 So it's a great marketing opportunity. 563 00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:45.039 But also, 564 00:26:45.159 --> 00:26:45.419 you know, 565 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:45.879 again, 566 00:26:45.899 --> 00:26:46.940 it comes back to quality. 567 00:26:47.300 --> 00:26:47.620 People, 568 00:26:48.661 --> 00:26:51.503 even at times when our eggs have been more expensive, 569 00:26:51.563 --> 00:26:52.883 now with egg prices going up, 570 00:26:53.244 --> 00:26:55.865 we're actually about the same price as conventional. 571 00:26:56.565 --> 00:26:59.467 But even when our eggs were a third or more expensive, 572 00:27:00.087 --> 00:27:03.649 then people would still always come back to us because of that quality. 573 00:27:05.651 --> 00:27:06.111 That baby! 574 00:27:06.763 --> 00:27:06.903 Yeah, 575 00:27:06.923 --> 00:27:07.403 you can come in, 576 00:27:07.404 --> 00:27:08.624 but you gotta close the door when you come in. 577 00:27:09.564 --> 00:27:10.564 It's not about her coming in, 578 00:27:10.584 --> 00:27:11.584 it's about them getting out. 579 00:27:12.105 --> 00:27:12.965 So that's Jolene, 580 00:27:13.305 --> 00:27:13.965 this is Mama, 581 00:27:15.305 --> 00:27:16.746 and over here is little Mr. 582 00:27:16.766 --> 00:27:17.286 Man. 583 00:27:18.826 --> 00:27:22.247 What role do these goats play in your farm ecosystem? 584 00:27:22.827 --> 00:27:23.228 Ah yeah, 585 00:27:23.468 --> 00:27:23.688 well, 586 00:27:23.748 --> 00:27:27.249 I mean we tease and we call them goat lawnmowers, 587 00:27:28.129 --> 00:27:30.330 but that's just because at the moment we only have two. 588 00:27:30.370 --> 00:27:31.590 We have had up to seven, 589 00:27:32.350 --> 00:27:35.311 and what their role was... 590 00:27:35.943 --> 00:27:43.269 was to help us to process and cycle biomass that wasn't edible by our horses, 591 00:27:43.469 --> 00:27:43.750 right? 592 00:27:43.910 --> 00:27:46.212 So things that we would consider weeds, 593 00:27:46.372 --> 00:27:46.632 right? 594 00:27:46.692 --> 00:27:47.673 Things that are spiky, 595 00:27:47.933 --> 00:27:51.456 that are not palatable to horses. 596 00:27:52.256 --> 00:27:52.877 Goats love, 597 00:27:53.357 --> 00:27:53.658 right? 598 00:27:54.178 --> 00:27:56.860 So what happened was we had a lot of this, 599 00:27:57.441 --> 00:28:04.887 as we explained about the previous management with the dairy co-op and all of the thistles and everything. 600 00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:06.640 But we have, 601 00:28:06.760 --> 00:28:09.402 thanks to them as ecosystem tools, 602 00:28:09.623 --> 00:28:15.127 transitioned a lot of that undesirable plants into desirable plants. 603 00:28:15.588 --> 00:28:20.352 So now we have far fewer spaces that produce those kinds of plants. 604 00:28:20.932 --> 00:28:23.935 So we have far less need for goats. 605 00:28:24.595 --> 00:28:30.880 We've actually got much more now that is correct for horses or for cows or for sheep. 606 00:28:32.041 --> 00:28:32.702 But at the moment, 607 00:28:32.742 --> 00:28:33.663 we don't have cows. 608 00:28:33.943 --> 00:28:34.403 or sheep. 609 00:28:34.603 --> 00:28:37.144 So what we did was just reduce the number of goats. 610 00:28:37.665 --> 00:28:39.605 So we use them surgically. 611 00:28:40.166 --> 00:28:44.287 We put them into the exact places that we need them to be intervening. 612 00:28:44.988 --> 00:28:46.588 And so in that sense, 613 00:28:46.608 --> 00:28:47.549 we use them as tools. 614 00:28:50.050 --> 00:28:50.430 So yeah, 615 00:28:50.450 --> 00:28:57.413 you were telling me at the start of the conversation that you were possibly going to start supplying a restaurant very soon. 616 00:28:57.933 --> 00:28:59.174 That's something really exciting, 617 00:28:59.194 --> 00:29:01.855 but also it really makes me wonder about 618 00:29:03.263 --> 00:29:08.425 The relationship between the management you're doing here and the care you're given to soil health, 619 00:29:08.585 --> 00:29:09.426 to biodiversity, 620 00:29:09.446 --> 00:29:10.446 and to all of these things. 621 00:29:11.247 --> 00:29:14.048 And the quality of the food that you produce, 622 00:29:14.128 --> 00:29:15.328 the taste and the nutrition, 623 00:29:15.368 --> 00:29:16.429 because chefs, 624 00:29:16.789 --> 00:29:19.030 especially these kind of high-level chefs... 625 00:29:19.682 --> 00:29:21.282 They are obsessed with quality, 626 00:29:21.603 --> 00:29:21.843 right? 627 00:29:22.363 --> 00:29:22.843 And taste. 628 00:29:23.423 --> 00:29:25.264 So maybe you could tell us a little bit about that. 629 00:29:25.684 --> 00:29:25.884 Yeah, 630 00:29:26.064 --> 00:29:26.504 happy to. 631 00:29:26.944 --> 00:29:28.505 They are local to 632 00:29:28.885 --> 00:29:36.347 Nevada and absolutely obsessed with elevating traditional Nevada crops and products. 633 00:29:36.947 --> 00:29:39.368 They love working with farms. 634 00:29:40.288 --> 00:29:42.408 They love buying directly from farms. 635 00:29:42.829 --> 00:29:45.909 But they have a big challenge because every year, 636 00:29:46.210 --> 00:29:47.470 at least some of their... 637 00:29:48.254 --> 00:29:51.897 suppliers go out of business because there's no generational transition, 638 00:29:52.337 --> 00:29:59.222 because they don't make enough money with the economic model that these farms have developed. 639 00:29:59.623 --> 00:30:06.708 So what we're doing is we're working with them not only to grow the crops that they're looking for, 640 00:30:07.228 --> 00:30:14.354 but hopefully expand into a deeper relationship where we can help to be training other farmers. 641 00:30:14.770 --> 00:30:24.896 where they can be bringing chefs so that we can be doing education with chefs so that they understand that deep relationship between the soil and the quality of the products. 642 00:30:25.877 --> 00:30:27.898 When they originally approached this, 643 00:30:27.978 --> 00:30:31.740 it was because they couldn't find really good tomatoes. 644 00:30:31.900 --> 00:30:35.422 And where we are in the northern half of Nevada, 645 00:30:36.323 --> 00:30:38.744 typically it rains too much and it's too cloudy. 646 00:30:38.785 --> 00:30:40.846 But as you can see on this beautiful sunny day, 647 00:30:41.406 --> 00:30:46.690 We are at 620 meters south facing and we grow amazing tomatoes. 648 00:30:46.890 --> 00:30:49.291 And because I'm quite a bit of a seed nerd, 649 00:30:49.812 --> 00:30:54.675 we grow at least 12 or 15 different varieties of heirloom tomatoes every year. 650 00:30:55.195 --> 00:30:57.717 And when he saw the pictures of what we do, 651 00:30:58.157 --> 00:30:59.538 he went absolutely crazy. 652 00:30:59.558 --> 00:31:00.119 And he's like, 653 00:31:00.259 --> 00:31:01.140 I want all of it. 654 00:31:01.560 --> 00:31:02.140 And I was like, 655 00:31:02.141 --> 00:31:02.260 OK, 656 00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:02.761 great, 657 00:31:02.861 --> 00:31:03.061 easy, 658 00:31:03.161 --> 00:31:03.341 easy. 659 00:31:03.501 --> 00:31:03.781 He's like, 660 00:31:03.782 --> 00:31:03.861 no, 661 00:31:03.862 --> 00:31:03.981 no, 662 00:31:03.982 --> 00:31:04.082 no, 663 00:31:04.302 --> 00:31:07.344 I will bring my team and we will harvest ourselves. 664 00:31:07.824 --> 00:31:10.506 We can do a team building exercise. 665 00:31:10.986 --> 00:31:24.815 together where they can learn directly from you what is a good tomato and what makes up that nutrient density and everything so they can all understand the relationships working together. 666 00:31:25.456 --> 00:31:26.557 That's an amazing story. 667 00:31:27.757 --> 00:31:40.206 Do you think that starting to really understand the relationship between soil health and food quality creates new incentives to invest in regenerative agriculture? 668 00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:48.132 I would hope that we can get to the point where we can really be having these food is medicine conversations. 669 00:31:49.092 --> 00:31:52.053 It's much more advanced in the U.S., 670 00:31:52.153 --> 00:31:52.593 I feel. 671 00:31:53.333 --> 00:31:54.054 Here in Europe, 672 00:31:54.114 --> 00:31:55.614 it's just starting to kick off. 673 00:31:56.154 --> 00:32:00.415 But I think people are beginning to see those relationships. 674 00:32:00.836 --> 00:32:01.296 Of course, 675 00:32:01.396 --> 00:32:03.996 there's more and more research that shows the data, 676 00:32:04.097 --> 00:32:04.717 that shows, 677 00:32:05.117 --> 00:32:05.357 you know, 678 00:32:05.697 --> 00:32:08.118 the better omega-6 to 3 ratios. 679 00:32:09.638 --> 00:32:13.999 in grass-fed and in regenerative systems rather than conventional, 680 00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:14.840 for example. 681 00:32:16.340 --> 00:32:22.862 There are some researchers in the Netherlands that are doing quite a lot of lab work trying to show the nutrient density, 682 00:32:22.962 --> 00:32:30.864 but also the nutrient bioavailability of regenerative products compared to conventional. 683 00:32:31.384 --> 00:32:37.166 So once people start to understand that our bodies really are temples. 684 00:32:37.722 --> 00:32:40.604 And we begin to respect what we put in it, 685 00:32:40.824 --> 00:32:45.027 knowing that that's going to have a much higher quality of life, 686 00:32:45.127 --> 00:32:46.428 much longer quality, 687 00:32:46.749 --> 00:32:50.371 much longer lifespan without all the drugs, 688 00:32:50.391 --> 00:32:51.212 the diseases, 689 00:32:51.892 --> 00:32:52.573 the medicines, 690 00:32:53.654 --> 00:33:05.162 where we begin to appreciate ourselves instead of spending all of our extra money on expensive mobile phones or fast fashion or cheap holidays or whatever. 691 00:33:05.502 --> 00:33:05.762 You know, 692 00:33:06.103 --> 00:33:15.672 the point is there is that we need to be changing our priorities so that we're investing in the food that we put in our bodies. 693 00:33:16.132 --> 00:33:24.340 But we're also investing in our rural communities and having that relationship directly between the farmer and the consumer. 694 00:33:33.490 --> 00:33:35.254 This is the end of this episode. 695 00:33:35.535 --> 00:33:37.098 It comes a little bit abruptly, 696 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:38.040 I'll grant you that. 697 00:33:38.842 --> 00:33:41.863 That's because we recorded a conclusion message that was really, 698 00:33:41.943 --> 00:33:42.343 really cool, 699 00:33:42.544 --> 00:33:43.524 really nice with Megan. 700 00:33:43.984 --> 00:33:44.604 Unfortunately, 701 00:33:44.664 --> 00:33:49.346 we had a little problem with the microphone and I was not able to include that last part. 702 00:33:50.047 --> 00:33:54.188 But I really wanted to thank you all for listening this far into the episode. 703 00:33:54.308 --> 00:33:55.929 I really hope you enjoyed it. 704 00:33:56.389 --> 00:33:56.869 If you did, 705 00:33:57.049 --> 00:33:59.710 don't hesitate to go and check out the video version online. 706 00:33:59.911 --> 00:34:00.311 It's really, 707 00:34:00.391 --> 00:34:05.033 really nice to actually see everything that we talk about in this episode. 708 00:34:05.773 --> 00:34:08.314 If you'd like to support me and my work in... 709 00:34:08.711 --> 00:34:13.092 doing this podcast every week you can actually do that in just five seconds so 710 00:34:13.877 --> 00:34:16.579 Whichever streaming platform you're using right now to listen to this, 711 00:34:16.859 --> 00:34:21.482 you can just click on the Deep Seed page and hit the follow or subscribe button. 712 00:34:22.062 --> 00:34:23.843 It actually makes a huge difference. 713 00:34:23.863 --> 00:34:26.205 So thank you so much and see you next week.