WEBVTT

1
00:00:01.576 --> 00:00:03.698
Welcome back to the Deep Seed Podcast.

2
00:00:04.398 --> 00:00:13.766
This week I sat down with Dimitri Tsitos for a really deep and really insightful conversation about the tree crop industry in Europe.

3
00:00:14.967 --> 00:00:22.773
The number of hectares planted with super intensive tree crops in the Mediterranean region has been growing really fast in recent years.

4
00:00:23.713 --> 00:00:30.939
And the core of Dimitri's work and therefore our conversation today is about how do we make these super intensive systems

5
00:00:31.432 --> 00:00:32.133
regenerative.

6
00:00:33.414 --> 00:00:45.763
I push him quite a lot on the question of does it even make sense to design and plant these kind of systems in the first place and we have a very healthy debate on that question but ultimately

7
00:00:46.264 --> 00:00:50.967
Dimitri tells us that whether we like it or not these systems are here right now

8
00:00:51.192 --> 00:00:53.134
and they will be here for the foreseeable future.

9
00:00:53.694 --> 00:00:57.297
And so his job is to help these farmers be more regenerative.

10
00:00:57.457 --> 00:01:00.900
And he makes a very strong case to demonstrate that actually,

11
00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:08.205
we could potentially have super intensive tree crop farms that are also organic and regenerative.

12
00:01:09.706 --> 00:01:12.669
This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital.

13
00:01:13.449 --> 00:01:14.130
I am your host,

14
00:01:14.410 --> 00:01:14.850
Raphael,

15
00:01:15.511 --> 00:01:17.192
and this is the Deep Seed Podcast.

16
00:01:25.595 --> 00:01:26.075
Hi Dimitri,

17
00:01:26.455 --> 00:01:26.896
welcome to the

18
00:01:27.236 --> 00:01:28.036
Deep Seed podcast.

19
00:01:28.877 --> 00:01:29.297
Hi Raphael,

20
00:01:29.357 --> 00:01:31.399
thank you so much for having me on today.

21
00:01:31.579 --> 00:01:32.240
Really appreciate it.

22
00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:32.520
Yeah,

23
00:01:32.521 --> 00:01:32.980
I'm really,

24
00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:36.103
really happy to finally meet you in person and have this discussion.

25
00:01:36.403 --> 00:01:38.024
And when I started this podcast,

26
00:01:38.084 --> 00:01:41.147
your podcast was one of my biggest influences.

27
00:01:41.187 --> 00:01:42.728
So that's super nice to hear.

28
00:01:42.868 --> 00:01:43.008
Yeah,

29
00:01:43.268 --> 00:01:43.709
that's awesome.

30
00:01:44.049 --> 00:01:44.169
Yep.

31
00:01:44.629 --> 00:01:44.870
Okay,

32
00:01:45.070 --> 00:01:45.190
so

33
00:01:46.451 --> 00:01:51.535
I always like to start the conversations on the podcast with this one question because it It brings us.

34
00:01:51.868 --> 00:01:53.291
right into the deep end,

35
00:01:53.571 --> 00:01:56.095
into the heart of today's conversation.

36
00:01:56.836 --> 00:01:57.417
So here it is.

37
00:01:58.479 --> 00:02:04.949
What is the one key message that you really want every person listening to this conversation today to come away with?

38
00:02:06.651 --> 00:02:07.653
I'd say that...

39
00:02:09.804 --> 00:02:12.426
If we want to really scale regenerative agriculture,

40
00:02:13.047 --> 00:02:17.490
we need to align and to work with the industry,

41
00:02:17.870 --> 00:02:23.875
with the farmers that are in a very conventional system currently,

42
00:02:24.776 --> 00:02:27.958
but that represents the majority of the farmers that are producing.

43
00:02:28.859 --> 00:02:31.301
And in order to work with them,

44
00:02:31.521 --> 00:02:36.445
we need to approach them and collaborate with them in a non-judgmental way.

45
00:02:36.768 --> 00:02:37.268
We need to,

46
00:02:38.209 --> 00:02:43.493
there's a tendency in the RegenX space to kind of point the finger and to say,

47
00:02:43.533 --> 00:02:43.774
you know,

48
00:02:43.994 --> 00:02:44.934
you're doing conventional,

49
00:02:44.974 --> 00:02:45.715
you're spraying,

50
00:02:45.755 --> 00:02:49.238
you're doing all these things and in a judgmental way.

51
00:02:49.558 --> 00:02:54.462
But if we come in with a much more empathetic approach,

52
00:02:55.243 --> 00:03:01.768
where we are understanding that farmers are managing a lot of complexity with very high risk levels.

53
00:03:01.828 --> 00:03:04.730
It's probably one of the most challenging jobs out there.

54
00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:08.360
and understanding that the current,

55
00:03:08.920 --> 00:03:09.160
you know,

56
00:03:09.161 --> 00:03:13.640
the practices they're currently implementing them are the best that they know at this moment.

57
00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:16.000
And we come in and we support them.

58
00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:17.260
And we gradually,

59
00:03:17.300 --> 00:03:18.160
as I said earlier on,

60
00:03:18.180 --> 00:03:22.960
we gradually help them and accompany them in this transition by within a human approach,

61
00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:23.800
through communication,

62
00:03:23.860 --> 00:03:24.800
through demonstration,

63
00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:27.640
come to them in a professional way with data,

64
00:03:27.700 --> 00:03:27.840
etc.

65
00:03:29.460 --> 00:03:30.960
Then we can see them change.

66
00:03:30.980 --> 00:03:32.120
And we do see them change.

67
00:03:32.121 --> 00:03:34.740
And we do see them open up and get more interested.

68
00:03:35.744 --> 00:03:39.667
And so I think that it's important for us to work with the industry,

69
00:03:39.907 --> 00:03:44.151
work with these farmers and develop solutions that are not too idealistic,

70
00:03:44.571 --> 00:03:45.632
but that are scalable.

71
00:03:46.472 --> 00:03:46.733
Right.

72
00:03:46.913 --> 00:03:47.073
Yeah,

73
00:03:47.173 --> 00:03:47.293
yeah.

74
00:03:47.393 --> 00:03:48.574
Really like what you're saying here.

75
00:03:48.694 --> 00:03:57.301
And it really resonates with a conversation I had on the podcast quite recently with Nicolas Verscure from Sol Capital Farming and Cultivae.

76
00:03:58.061 --> 00:04:04.406
And he was telling me that while he really appreciates those super advanced,

77
00:04:04.827 --> 00:04:05.227
super

78
00:04:05.952 --> 00:04:07.713
talented regenerative farmers,

79
00:04:08.394 --> 00:04:12.417
he's more interested in bringing in the 80-90%

80
00:04:12.537 --> 00:04:16.761
vast majority of full conventional farmers on a path to regeneration.

81
00:04:17.661 --> 00:04:24.867
And doing that by being non-dogmatic about it and offering a path that is realistic and accessible for the farmers.

82
00:04:25.948 --> 00:04:31.512
I think that farmers want us to solve their problems.

83
00:04:32.564 --> 00:04:38.389
And so if you're coming in very strong with an ecological discourse,

84
00:04:39.069 --> 00:04:41.111
you're adding problems for them.

85
00:04:41.371 --> 00:04:42.912
You're telling them you're adding pressure,

86
00:04:43.032 --> 00:04:49.938
you're adding more things that they need to do in order to be considered good farmers,

87
00:04:49.958 --> 00:04:50.398
for example.

88
00:04:51.379 --> 00:04:51.679
And so...

89
00:04:53.784 --> 00:04:59.429
What you need to do is you need to come in and you need to identify their problems and then you need to solve them one by one.

90
00:04:59.809 --> 00:05:01.810
And after the first problem that you solved,

91
00:05:01.950 --> 00:05:04.112
you'll see just how much more they trust you.

92
00:05:05.773 --> 00:05:07.435
And so I think it's a lot about this.

93
00:05:07.495 --> 00:05:11.918
It's a lot about fixing their issues and making their life easier.

94
00:05:12.899 --> 00:05:16.802
Many times they're facing problems and they don't necessarily understand where the problems are coming from.

95
00:05:17.002 --> 00:05:19.124
We're managing a very complex system,

96
00:05:19.144 --> 00:05:20.745
which is an agro-ecosystem.

97
00:05:21.025 --> 00:05:21.666
It's nature.

98
00:05:21.996 --> 00:05:44.834
it's it's difficult to diagnose and so we are we have we're lucky enough that we have developed experience and knowledge on how these things work and we can come to the farmer and we can help the farmer identify what's the problem and um and then find solutions for uh for for the farmer so that's that's our approach at agrosystemic and and how we try to um approach

99
00:05:44.934 --> 00:05:50.638
our regenerative transition so yeah so you're trying to help the farmers first and foremost and regenerate ecosystems

100
00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:51.660
while doing that.

101
00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:54.260
We're trying to regenerate the farmers'

102
00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:55.860
agroecosystem for the farmers'

103
00:05:55.900 --> 00:05:56.320
benefit,

104
00:05:56.460 --> 00:05:57.300
first and foremost.

105
00:05:57.540 --> 00:05:57.780
Right.

106
00:05:58.840 --> 00:06:07.920
So it seems clear to me that you have a very systemic view of the global food system and in particular the tree crop industry in Europe.

107
00:06:08.960 --> 00:06:15.720
And I would love to retrace your journey so that we could understand better how you arrived at that systemic vision.

108
00:06:15.820 --> 00:06:19.600
So could you please tell us a little bit about your personal journey?

109
00:06:20.568 --> 00:06:38.762
starting with what brought you into the regenerative agriculture space in the first place and leading up to well where you are today and what you do today sounds very good so yeah i come from a family that doesn't have doesn't come from an agricultural background um

110
00:06:39.363 --> 00:06:49.851
always lived in rural areas but not farming ourselves this was a few generations back um and i grew up in france and in England as well.

111
00:06:51.296 --> 00:06:53.316
and I studied economics at university.

112
00:06:54.236 --> 00:06:56.416
And then from when I left university,

113
00:06:56.816 --> 00:07:04.656
I realized that I didn't want to work in either banks or investment firms or these different things that were promoted at the time.

114
00:07:05.296 --> 00:07:06.556
It wasn't resonating with me,

115
00:07:06.736 --> 00:07:09.196
and I decided to try and find out what I wanted to do.

116
00:07:10.016 --> 00:07:14.016
And I very quickly encountered agroforestry at the start,

117
00:07:14.876 --> 00:07:15.776
which was for me,

118
00:07:18.136 --> 00:07:19.356
from my economics background,

119
00:07:20.584 --> 00:07:22.444
I was always interested in the ecological issue,

120
00:07:22.684 --> 00:07:23.424
but always thinking,

121
00:07:23.544 --> 00:07:23.764
you know,

122
00:07:23.784 --> 00:07:25.644
how can we make it work economically?

123
00:07:26.244 --> 00:07:28.084
Understanding that if it doesn't work economically,

124
00:07:28.244 --> 00:07:29.104
it's not going to scale.

125
00:07:29.464 --> 00:07:31.924
And then agroforestry seemed like a good mix between,

126
00:07:32.444 --> 00:07:32.684
you know,

127
00:07:32.685 --> 00:07:35.904
we can reforest and make some money out of it.

128
00:07:36.464 --> 00:07:38.604
And so that was obviously right at the start.

129
00:07:38.624 --> 00:07:39.824
So then I started digging deeper.

130
00:07:39.964 --> 00:07:41.604
I went through different experiences.

131
00:07:41.624 --> 00:07:45.344
I went to work in Brazil for some time with

132
00:07:45.704 --> 00:07:47.904
Ernst, who does the syntropic farming.

133
00:07:48.632 --> 00:07:49.433
I did lots of,

134
00:07:49.633 --> 00:07:50.854
as many courses as I could,

135
00:07:50.874 --> 00:07:52.335
read as many books as I could on it.

136
00:07:53.796 --> 00:07:56.358
Was talking to my dad and my mum,

137
00:07:56.738 --> 00:07:58.820
and we decided to start a farm in Greece,

138
00:07:59.100 --> 00:08:00.021
which is called Mazzy Farm.

139
00:08:00.141 --> 00:08:01.562
So this we started seven years ago.

140
00:08:02.843 --> 00:08:04.264
And spent three years there,

141
00:08:04.424 --> 00:08:05.125
working on the farm,

142
00:08:06.426 --> 00:08:08.107
experiencing the challenges of farming.

143
00:08:08.492 --> 00:08:08.993
first hand,

144
00:08:10.073 --> 00:08:10.894
because it was not easy,

145
00:08:11.514 --> 00:08:13.436
and especially doing alternative practices.

146
00:08:15.498 --> 00:08:19.301
So that's been an interesting process there.

147
00:08:19.341 --> 00:08:19.961
And afterwards,

148
00:08:20.021 --> 00:08:22.143
I decided that I was going to leave the farm,

149
00:08:22.703 --> 00:08:22.963
because

150
00:08:23.924 --> 00:08:27.527
I was feeling limited in my experience and my knowledge,

151
00:08:27.528 --> 00:08:29.288
and I needed to experience other contexts,

152
00:08:29.289 --> 00:08:29.949
see different things.

153
00:08:31.216 --> 00:08:31.797
At Massey Farm,

154
00:08:31.937 --> 00:08:33.178
we planted lots of tree crops.

155
00:08:33.298 --> 00:08:33.518
Obviously,

156
00:08:33.538 --> 00:08:35.059
with agroforestry goes trees,

157
00:08:35.099 --> 00:08:35.680
and with trees,

158
00:08:35.681 --> 00:08:36.580
we planted tree crops.

159
00:08:36.581 --> 00:08:37.361
In the Mediterranean,

160
00:08:37.401 --> 00:08:37.961
it's perfect.

161
00:08:37.962 --> 00:08:39.082
So we planted pistachios,

162
00:08:39.142 --> 00:08:39.543
almonds,

163
00:08:39.983 --> 00:08:40.183
figs,

164
00:08:40.203 --> 00:08:40.904
and prickly pears.

165
00:08:41.344 --> 00:08:47.329
So I started having a big focus and developing a strong passion for tree crops and nuts and fruits,

166
00:08:47.349 --> 00:08:47.749
et cetera.

167
00:08:48.349 --> 00:08:51.252
And so I've been really geeking out on that for a while now.

168
00:08:51.272 --> 00:08:52.353
That's been my main focus.

169
00:08:52.553 --> 00:08:53.173
And little by little,

170
00:08:53.213 --> 00:08:56.556
I kind of shifted towards not so much agroforestry,

171
00:08:58.938 --> 00:09:00.359
but more towards um

172
00:09:01.108 --> 00:09:03.810
how to produce tree crops regeneratively.

173
00:09:04.531 --> 00:09:05.131
In the meantime,

174
00:09:05.171 --> 00:09:07.053
started a podcast as well on agroforestry,

175
00:09:07.153 --> 00:09:08.114
which at the time,

176
00:09:08.834 --> 00:09:11.136
that was when we were at Mazzy Farm with Etienne,

177
00:09:11.196 --> 00:09:14.338
who's the co-founder of Etienne Compagnon,

178
00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:17.781
who's the co-founder of the podcast and a very good friend of mine.

179
00:09:18.322 --> 00:09:22.525
And we realized we don't have good access to content and to farm experiences.

180
00:09:22.545 --> 00:09:23.726
So we decided to do it ourselves.

181
00:09:24.306 --> 00:09:26.328
Thought that we were going to have 200 listeners max,

182
00:09:26.788 --> 00:09:29.570
but it grew a lot and it resonated with a lot of people.

183
00:09:30.140 --> 00:09:31.541
So that was a great experience.

184
00:09:32.262 --> 00:09:32.682
Since then,

185
00:09:32.702 --> 00:09:35.024
I was not necessarily able to continue the podcast.

186
00:09:35.025 --> 00:09:36.585
We're trying to revive it in different ways.

187
00:09:37.686 --> 00:09:40.708
But I've had to focus more on my activity at the moment,

188
00:09:40.748 --> 00:09:42.009
which is my company,

189
00:09:42.149 --> 00:09:43.130
which is AgroSystemic,

190
00:09:43.591 --> 00:09:44.852
that I co-founded with my wife,

191
00:09:44.872 --> 00:09:45.232
Haiza.

192
00:09:46.973 --> 00:09:53.258
And the objective of the company is to scale regenerative agriculture in the Mediterranean,

193
00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:55.200
focusing a lot on tree crops,

194
00:09:55.220 --> 00:09:56.361
but we also work with corn.

195
00:09:57.381 --> 00:09:58.682
and actually we also have a project in

196
00:09:58.892 --> 00:10:00.493
in Brazil with citrus,

197
00:10:00.934 --> 00:10:01.494
with orange,

198
00:10:02.075 --> 00:10:03.195
a large orange producer.

199
00:10:03.876 --> 00:10:07.759
So we're basically having the system's view,

200
00:10:07.819 --> 00:10:08.840
as you were saying earlier on,

201
00:10:08.860 --> 00:10:09.821
of how do we,

202
00:10:10.001 --> 00:10:11.082
if you're asking the question,

203
00:10:11.182 --> 00:10:14.604
how do you transition farmers in a specific context?

204
00:10:14.664 --> 00:10:18.207
It's not just about going there and knowing how to plant a cover crop.

205
00:10:18.627 --> 00:10:20.469
It's about knowing how to talk to the farmer,

206
00:10:20.689 --> 00:10:22.951
understanding firstly the context of the farmer,

207
00:10:23.311 --> 00:10:25.052
diagnosing not just the soil issues,

208
00:10:25.092 --> 00:10:26.594
but also the human issues,

209
00:10:26.754 --> 00:10:28.215
the economic issues going on there.

210
00:10:28.488 --> 00:10:40.117
so you can provide some pertinent solutions yeah otherwise you're you're not really you know listening and adapting yeah so yeah that's the process at the moment we live in portugal um

211
00:10:41.192 --> 00:10:44.074
And we've got a lot of projects here with the company.

212
00:10:44.635 --> 00:10:45.375
And little by little,

213
00:10:46.256 --> 00:10:47.897
we're building the company.

214
00:10:47.957 --> 00:10:56.684
We're now five people in the company working with different advisors and high-level agronomists that have been doing this for 20 years,

215
00:10:56.685 --> 00:10:57.485
that are part of the team.

216
00:10:57.505 --> 00:11:00.527
And we're together grinding and developing projects.

217
00:11:00.528 --> 00:11:02.869
We've got some cool R&D projects we'll talk about later on,

218
00:11:03.049 --> 00:11:03.550
things like this.

219
00:11:03.830 --> 00:11:04.090
Great.

220
00:11:04.450 --> 00:11:04.791
Awesome.

221
00:11:05.771 --> 00:11:10.035
That last part about agro-systemic and everything you're doing at the moment.

222
00:11:10.808 --> 00:11:16.813
This is going to be the main focus of our conversation today and I really want to dig as deep as possible into all of that.

223
00:11:17.533 --> 00:11:22.477
But before we get there I want to stay on your personal story a little bit longer and in particular

224
00:11:23.198 --> 00:11:23.738
Mazzy Farm.

225
00:11:23.978 --> 00:11:32.245
So you already gave us some information about it but I would love for you to to go a bit deeper to tell us more about your experience of starting a farm,

226
00:11:32.585 --> 00:11:33.286
the challenges,

227
00:11:33.306 --> 00:11:34.146
the successes,

228
00:11:34.487 --> 00:11:38.089
the evolution of the farm over the years and yeah all of that.

229
00:11:38.964 --> 00:11:42.847
So I literally just came back from there before yesterday,

230
00:11:43.348 --> 00:11:44.829
or maybe three days ago.

231
00:11:45.970 --> 00:11:47.231
And it was really beautiful.

232
00:11:47.791 --> 00:11:48.311
It was really...

233
00:11:48.952 --> 00:11:51.134
Because you basically visualize this.

234
00:11:51.674 --> 00:11:57.018
We started on a piece of land that was completely overgrazed on a hill in a rocky mountain area of Greece.

235
00:11:58.239 --> 00:11:59.920
So very challenging environment.

236
00:12:00.061 --> 00:12:01.101
A lot of wind.

237
00:12:02.422 --> 00:12:02.643
Just...

238
00:12:03.568 --> 00:12:04.769
hard to grow anything really.

239
00:12:05.550 --> 00:12:10.373
It's an area where there's a lot of animals because they adapt well to the context there.

240
00:12:11.474 --> 00:12:12.635
Soil is very poor soil,

241
00:12:13.636 --> 00:12:15.037
aged and degraded soil.

242
00:12:16.398 --> 00:12:16.999
Naturally poor,

243
00:12:17.019 --> 00:12:23.003
but also poor due to the overgrazing that was taking place there and the different practices.

244
00:12:23.744 --> 00:12:26.126
And so it was this kind of barren,

245
00:12:26.826 --> 00:12:27.167
stony,

246
00:12:27.307 --> 00:12:27.567
rocky.

247
00:12:27.627 --> 00:12:29.769
You'd arrive there and it was all just yellow and rocks.

248
00:12:30.549 --> 00:12:30.990
In the winter,

249
00:12:31.010 --> 00:12:31.310
of course,

250
00:12:31.311 --> 00:12:32.130
it grew some plants,

251
00:12:32.191 --> 00:12:32.331
but

252
00:12:32.364 --> 00:12:51.439
you know they didn't grow very well or they needed fertilizer to develop well and um and now i went there and we had we had a quite good rainfall not fantastic but definitely better than the last three years on the land and it's just so green and lush and you see a forest we applied lots of agroforestry practices and

253
00:12:51.479 --> 00:13:01.547
organic tree crop just practices and a lot of innovative as well regenerative practices we kind of really pushed hard on the

254
00:13:01.996 --> 00:13:06.660
how alternative and how it was really a big kind of R&D project in a way.

255
00:13:08.121 --> 00:13:11.083
So lots of different practices that were quite alternative at the time.

256
00:13:12.364 --> 00:13:16.668
And so arriving there and I just felt the land alive and with a cover crop this big,

257
00:13:17.168 --> 00:13:18.049
green everywhere,

258
00:13:18.589 --> 00:13:20.310
the trees are doing well.

259
00:13:22.432 --> 00:13:25.054
And so it felt good because at the beginning it was a bit of a grind.

260
00:13:25.154 --> 00:13:30.018
It was quite a big challenge due to the context and also us trying to work it out.

261
00:13:30.764 --> 00:13:32.344
us not having that much experience,

262
00:13:32.384 --> 00:13:37.004
but also us trying to apply techniques that hadn't been applied before.

263
00:13:37.005 --> 00:13:38.084
So obviously you make mistakes.

264
00:13:38.464 --> 00:13:38.824
So for me,

265
00:13:38.844 --> 00:13:40.664
that was a big learning ground where we really,

266
00:13:41.264 --> 00:13:42.684
I did a lot of mistakes there,

267
00:13:42.864 --> 00:13:44.404
which I still carry to this day.

268
00:13:44.944 --> 00:13:45.544
And still,

269
00:13:45.545 --> 00:13:46.304
when I work with farmers,

270
00:13:46.305 --> 00:13:46.544
I'm like,

271
00:13:46.744 --> 00:13:47.384
let's not do that,

272
00:13:47.584 --> 00:13:49.984
because I've done that and it doesn't,

273
00:13:50.064 --> 00:13:51.184
or let's do it this way.

274
00:13:52.104 --> 00:13:53.744
So yeah,

275
00:13:53.864 --> 00:13:56.324
I think that's the experience there at Massey Farm.

276
00:13:57.364 --> 00:13:58.864
Lots of different practices and

277
00:13:59.232 --> 00:14:02.995
now we really have a forest and the soil organic matter levels have shot up.

278
00:14:03.075 --> 00:14:04.716
We worked a lot with biomass management.

279
00:14:05.177 --> 00:14:07.378
So we planted lots of trees just to prune them,

280
00:14:07.659 --> 00:14:08.780
just to produce biomass.

281
00:14:09.220 --> 00:14:11.261
That's a technique that's quite inspired from Syntropic,

282
00:14:11.342 --> 00:14:15.525
but the concept is let's produce biomass on site by pruning,

283
00:14:15.925 --> 00:14:23.991
by coppicing or pollarding trees and chipping them and using that wood chip as a source of regeneration of energy,

284
00:14:24.031 --> 00:14:25.092
of carbon for the soil.

285
00:14:25.593 --> 00:14:28.635
And so we've had the soil has transformed in its quality.

286
00:14:29.897 --> 00:14:31.178
and the organic matter has shot up,

287
00:14:31.238 --> 00:14:32.319
we've gained in a few years.

288
00:14:32.719 --> 00:14:34.240
We're waiting for the next analysis,

289
00:14:34.280 --> 00:14:36.602
but the first analysis we did a month ago,

290
00:14:37.102 --> 00:14:41.786
we've seen that we've gained about 2-3 percentage points in our organic matter.

291
00:14:41.966 --> 00:14:42.126
Yeah,

292
00:14:42.127 --> 00:14:42.346
okay.

293
00:14:43.527 --> 00:14:44.948
I haven't seen the farm yet,

294
00:14:44.968 --> 00:14:46.329
I would love to visit it at some point,

295
00:14:46.389 --> 00:14:49.312
but it reminds me of the biggest little farm,

296
00:14:49.313 --> 00:14:50.152
you know the documentary,

297
00:14:50.253 --> 00:14:54.316
this amazing documentary about this couple who start an organic farm,

298
00:14:55.557 --> 00:14:57.198
and how they struggle the first few years,

299
00:14:57.218 --> 00:14:58.159
but the guy there,

300
00:14:58.848 --> 00:15:01.270
advisor says it's going to take some time,

301
00:15:01.811 --> 00:15:02.231
maybe seven,

302
00:15:02.251 --> 00:15:02.691
eight years,

303
00:15:02.811 --> 00:15:05.133
but then at some point the system is going to start to click.

304
00:15:05.854 --> 00:15:07.355
And maybe that's what's happening now.

305
00:15:07.535 --> 00:15:08.476
It seems like it.

306
00:15:09.056 --> 00:15:10.818
The problem is the past three years,

307
00:15:10.978 --> 00:15:12.779
we've had a massive drought.

308
00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:16.462
And so that's the time when you really test the system.

309
00:15:17.663 --> 00:15:21.126
And what's interesting is that even though production hasn't been great due to that,

310
00:15:21.886 --> 00:15:24.629
because the wells dried up in the whole region.

311
00:15:25.669 --> 00:15:27.791
So we've got some major issues with water we had to dig a

312
00:15:28.124 --> 00:15:31.327
a much deeper well to get access to some water.

313
00:15:32.307 --> 00:15:34.569
But we were giving the minimum irrigation during this time.

314
00:15:34.909 --> 00:15:35.550
I mean minimum.

315
00:15:36.310 --> 00:15:40.233
If in a conventional system you're providing 3000 cubic meters for olives,

316
00:15:40.314 --> 00:15:44.497
we were here providing 200 cubic meters per hectare.

317
00:15:45.538 --> 00:15:47.599
And the trees didn't die.

318
00:15:48.460 --> 00:15:49.541
The trees are well.

319
00:15:50.218 --> 00:15:51.579
And this year with a bit of rain,

320
00:15:51.599 --> 00:15:52.580
the trees are exploding.

321
00:15:52.920 --> 00:15:54.081
So we're seeing super good vigor.

322
00:15:54.381 --> 00:15:55.062
So it's,

323
00:15:55.182 --> 00:15:56.863
and the cover crop is marvelous as well.

324
00:15:56.883 --> 00:15:59.685
So you see that when biomass is being produced,

325
00:16:00.046 --> 00:16:00.286
you know,

326
00:16:00.326 --> 00:16:01.027
that's a sign of,

327
00:16:01.047 --> 00:16:03.028
that's one of the key KPIs for regeneration,

328
00:16:03.128 --> 00:16:03.388
you know?

329
00:16:03.869 --> 00:16:05.310
So fruit trees are growing,

330
00:16:06.030 --> 00:16:06.891
cover crops growing,

331
00:16:07.071 --> 00:16:08.552
the support species as well growing,

332
00:16:08.853 --> 00:16:10.014
everything is doing well.

333
00:16:10.574 --> 00:16:12.535
And so even though we've had some really harsh years,

334
00:16:12.836 --> 00:16:16.058
so that for us is a big sign that things are going well.

335
00:16:17.574 --> 00:16:21.877
Now we're focusing a lot on how do we take it to the next level now that we've regenerated the land.

336
00:16:22.978 --> 00:16:25.180
We've installed a lot of ecological infrastructure,

337
00:16:25.901 --> 00:16:27.322
such as windbreaks.

338
00:16:27.323 --> 00:16:28.563
There was a massive issue with wind.

339
00:16:29.083 --> 00:16:31.965
Wind that was coming from the sea that has a lot of chloride and sodium in it.

340
00:16:32.206 --> 00:16:35.588
And that was burning the leaves and creating toxicities and nutrient absorption issues.

341
00:16:36.309 --> 00:16:39.751
And so we created lots of windbreaks that took obviously a bit of time to establish.

342
00:16:40.212 --> 00:16:41.213
But back in the days,

343
00:16:41.214 --> 00:16:43.554
you'd walk on the land and just constantly have this wind in your ear.

344
00:16:43.594 --> 00:16:44.575
And it was irritating.

345
00:16:44.576 --> 00:16:45.216
It was difficult.

346
00:16:45.642 --> 00:16:49.025
Now you walk on the land and you feel calm and the trees are growing.

347
00:16:49.405 --> 00:16:50.626
They were growing sideways,

348
00:16:50.627 --> 00:16:50.866
you know,

349
00:16:51.166 --> 00:16:52.287
now they're going straight and up.

350
00:16:53.028 --> 00:16:55.089
And so we've established,

351
00:16:55.090 --> 00:16:58.752
it took time to establish the ecological infrastructure through agroforestry.

352
00:16:58.952 --> 00:17:00.013
And in this context,

353
00:17:00.334 --> 00:17:01.995
agroforestry was a really important tool.

354
00:17:03.176 --> 00:17:04.577
We've increased organic matter levels,

355
00:17:05.638 --> 00:17:07.319
we've built our farm infrastructure.

356
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:08.700
And so now,

357
00:17:08.860 --> 00:17:09.100
you know,

358
00:17:09.140 --> 00:17:09.781
we're kind of set.

359
00:17:10.622 --> 00:17:11.442
And the trees have grown,

360
00:17:11.482 --> 00:17:12.563
have established themselves.

361
00:17:12.858 --> 00:17:15.960
And now with good years and with a bit more irrigation support,

362
00:17:16.301 --> 00:17:19.203
we're set to enter into some higher production,

363
00:17:19.383 --> 00:17:20.744
which is obviously effective.

364
00:17:21.325 --> 00:17:21.965
So let's see.

365
00:17:22.065 --> 00:17:22.906
This would be good.

366
00:17:23.106 --> 00:17:33.014
But it's amazing that you took a piece of land that was quite degraded and really harsh and already turned it into a regenerated piece of land with more organic matter,

367
00:17:33.074 --> 00:17:34.135
with more biodiversity,

368
00:17:34.195 --> 00:17:35.035
with trees growing.

369
00:17:35.822 --> 00:17:36.983
It took seven years,

370
00:17:37.864 --> 00:17:38.925
but it happened.

371
00:17:38.926 --> 00:17:40.006
It must feel amazing though,

372
00:17:40.007 --> 00:17:42.367
to feel like all of the hard work you put in.

373
00:17:42.808 --> 00:17:42.968
Yeah,

374
00:17:43.348 --> 00:17:44.769
that's what I felt this year when I was there.

375
00:17:44.789 --> 00:17:45.250
It's like,

376
00:17:45.251 --> 00:17:46.310
pfft,

377
00:17:46.311 --> 00:17:47.391
felt good.

378
00:17:48.012 --> 00:17:52.675
I really love how you decided to start this podcast because you were looking for knowledge.

379
00:17:53.796 --> 00:17:55.057
So you went right to the source.

380
00:17:55.498 --> 00:17:58.600
You identified people you thought were interesting in the space,

381
00:17:58.601 --> 00:18:00.321
who had knowledge that you could benefit from,

382
00:18:01.102 --> 00:18:02.903
and started this podcast to interview them.

383
00:18:04.742 --> 00:18:05.482
What probably happened,

384
00:18:05.483 --> 00:18:08.422
the reason why you built such a following around the podcast as well,

385
00:18:08.462 --> 00:18:11.062
is that a lot of people were in the same situation and they were like,

386
00:18:11.102 --> 00:18:11.462
great,

387
00:18:11.642 --> 00:18:14.202
like they can identify with you as being new to this space,

388
00:18:14.382 --> 00:18:15.462
wanting to find information,

389
00:18:15.522 --> 00:18:16.402
struggling to find it.

390
00:18:17.102 --> 00:18:17.402
And yeah,

391
00:18:17.602 --> 00:18:18.782
I love that you did that.

392
00:18:19.802 --> 00:18:24.162
You mentioned that you were not able to keep doing the podcast in the last years because you're too busy with other things.

393
00:18:24.202 --> 00:18:25.702
And I obviously fully understand that,

394
00:18:25.722 --> 00:18:28.582
but I hope that you'll find a way to get back to it because I miss it.

395
00:18:28.902 --> 00:18:29.062
Yeah,

396
00:18:29.122 --> 00:18:29.422
yeah.

397
00:18:29.482 --> 00:18:31.042
I appreciate you saying this.

398
00:18:31.082 --> 00:18:33.262
And I've had a few people giving me that feedback as well.

399
00:18:33.842 --> 00:18:34.102
I mean,

400
00:18:34.690 --> 00:18:35.250
we put out

401
00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:42.410
54 episodes and each one is still really relevant today because each one is a study of a farm,

402
00:18:42.590 --> 00:18:42.830
you know,

403
00:18:42.831 --> 00:18:43.970
a case study of a farm.

404
00:18:44.870 --> 00:18:46.250
And it was a really great,

405
00:18:47.150 --> 00:18:47.410
I mean,

406
00:18:47.430 --> 00:18:48.010
it's so good.

407
00:18:48.430 --> 00:18:54.410
It's amazing to be able to create content and to put it out there and to get a person's story into so much detail,

408
00:18:54.470 --> 00:18:54.610
right?

409
00:18:54.611 --> 00:19:00.230
Because sometimes our episodes are often they're one hour and a half and we go into really nitty gritty details with these people.

410
00:19:01.990 --> 00:19:02.110
So,

411
00:19:02.390 --> 00:19:02.630
I mean,

412
00:19:02.670 --> 00:19:03.810
it's really good that But it's the...

413
00:19:04.118 --> 00:19:26.035
we've done this work but of course now we're looking to to see if somebody else can take on um take on and expand the the podcast and keep interviewing and if we have a few opportunities that we're working on so hopefully soon something happens and we're starting to reactivate it yeah sweet with another voice um but the project continues it won't be me uh doing interviewing but

414
00:19:26.155 --> 00:19:30.419
uh hopefully the project will continue right great i'm really looking forward to that

415
00:19:31.820 --> 00:19:33.401
We have a tendency on this podcast

416
00:19:33.594 --> 00:19:50.314
and probably on other podcasts and channels about regenerative agriculture to focus only on the the most advanced pioneer regenerative farms and farmers right and i love that today we're going to be looking at this topic from a completely different perspective because we're going to be talking about super

417
00:19:50.354 --> 00:20:02.374
intensive super conventional tree crops um so yeah maybe you could first give us an overview a summary of the tree crop industry in europe in particular in the mediterranean

418
00:20:02.714 --> 00:20:03.134
Context.

419
00:20:04.658 --> 00:20:04.778
So,

420
00:20:06.318 --> 00:20:06.598
yeah,

421
00:20:06.718 --> 00:20:07.498
it's a good question.

422
00:20:07.898 --> 00:20:08.278
And

423
00:20:09.678 --> 00:20:12.998
I'm going to describe a bit the evolution of tree crops,

424
00:20:13.478 --> 00:20:15.738
tree crop production in Europe over the years.

425
00:20:16.238 --> 00:20:20.198
So we started with a lot of traditional,

426
00:20:20.199 --> 00:20:21.698
what we would call traditional orchards.

427
00:20:22.198 --> 00:20:24.178
So these are orchards with a very wide spacing,

428
00:20:24.858 --> 00:20:26.858
with quite nowadays very old trees,

429
00:20:26.859 --> 00:20:27.098
you know,

430
00:20:27.258 --> 00:20:27.978
some of them 100,

431
00:20:27.979 --> 00:20:29.338
150 years old.

432
00:20:31.258 --> 00:20:33.338
And these orchards were usually located around the villages.

433
00:20:33.794 --> 00:20:50.294
to harvest the olives for example to produce the olive oil very wide spacing with animals underneath very agroecological no irrigation rain fed hardly any spraying the main costs were pruning or main let's say operations were pruning and harvesting and

434
00:20:50.295 --> 00:20:55.594
the animals underneath managing so that was the traditional system which these systems still exist they haven't

435
00:20:55.980 --> 00:20:58.002
They haven't necessarily been cut back and cut down.

436
00:20:58.202 --> 00:20:58.822
They're still there.

437
00:20:59.603 --> 00:21:06.949
But as the demand for olive oil has increased globally and it's become quite a big commodity due to,

438
00:21:07.549 --> 00:21:08.250
in recent years,

439
00:21:08.270 --> 00:21:12.813
a lot of the Mediterranean diet becoming more and more famous.

440
00:21:13.614 --> 00:21:15.515
We're actually in a phase of increased demand,

441
00:21:15.575 --> 00:21:17.077
world global demand for olive oil.

442
00:21:17.677 --> 00:21:18.177
For example,

443
00:21:18.178 --> 00:21:19.098
if we focus on olives,

444
00:21:19.498 --> 00:21:21.080
we've seen people producing,

445
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:24.622
planting orchards with what we would call intensive orchards.

446
00:21:24.952 --> 00:21:25.452
Spacing is

447
00:21:25.893 --> 00:21:26.013
6x6,

448
00:21:27.694 --> 00:21:28.415
5x6, maximum

449
00:21:28.775 --> 00:21:29.856
7x7, usually less.

450
00:21:30.456 --> 00:21:33.359
Animals have mostly left the system at this point.

451
00:21:33.819 --> 00:21:35.560
Very rational irrigation has come in.

452
00:21:36.621 --> 00:21:37.862
Technology has come in as well.

453
00:21:37.863 --> 00:21:38.963
We're starting to spray them,

454
00:21:39.003 --> 00:21:39.904
to fertilize them.

455
00:21:42.005 --> 00:21:45.668
And that lasted for a little while until they invented the superintensive system.

456
00:21:46.469 --> 00:21:47.630
So superintensive is,

457
00:21:47.750 --> 00:21:48.190
if we have a

458
00:21:48.811 --> 00:21:50.032
6x6 spacing for intensive,

459
00:21:50.033 --> 00:21:51.193
we then shift it towards

460
00:21:52.213 --> 00:21:53.855
4x1 spacing.

461
00:21:54.244 --> 00:21:58.924
So we went from 300 to 400 trees per hectare to 2000.

462
00:21:59.604 --> 00:21:59.764
Okay,

463
00:21:59.824 --> 00:22:01.984
so when you say four by one or three by one,

464
00:22:02.004 --> 00:22:06.904
you mean that every row has three or four meters between the rows?

465
00:22:06.905 --> 00:22:07.424
Exactly.

466
00:22:07.425 --> 00:22:09.764
And every tree has just one meter between each tree?

467
00:22:09.765 --> 00:22:11.064
Kind of like a vineyard system,

468
00:22:11.484 --> 00:22:12.184
but much taller.

469
00:22:12.364 --> 00:22:15.024
It's what we call a hedge orchard.

470
00:22:16.184 --> 00:22:17.604
In Portuguese it's called cebe,

471
00:22:19.144 --> 00:22:19.984
olivalen cebe,

472
00:22:20.444 --> 00:22:22.924
which is a hedge olive grove.

473
00:22:23.112 --> 00:22:24.393
because it looks like a hedge.

474
00:22:24.413 --> 00:22:24.973
You know,

475
00:22:24.974 --> 00:22:26.234
you don't see the difference between the trees,

476
00:22:26.235 --> 00:22:27.676
it's all just a line of olives.

477
00:22:28.756 --> 00:22:29.957
And so that was,

478
00:22:30.998 --> 00:22:32.079
why did people do that?

479
00:22:32.459 --> 00:22:35.542
Because one of the big challenges with olives is the harvest.

480
00:22:36.202 --> 00:22:37.323
And in traditional orchards,

481
00:22:37.324 --> 00:22:38.364
in traditional especially,

482
00:22:38.404 --> 00:22:40.205
but also in intensive orchards,

483
00:22:40.225 --> 00:22:45.409
one of the biggest costs was harvesting these orchards with big teams that needed to go onto,

484
00:22:45.710 --> 00:22:46.270
under the olives,

485
00:22:46.290 --> 00:22:46.951
lay out nets,

486
00:22:47.091 --> 00:22:49.773
shake the nuts onto nets and pick up the nets.

487
00:22:50.696 --> 00:22:58.522
And they basically shifted to this system because they realized that they created a machine which is called an over-the-row harvester.

488
00:22:58.542 --> 00:23:01.164
It comes from the vineyard,

489
00:23:01.885 --> 00:23:02.705
from the grape industry,

490
00:23:03.186 --> 00:23:03.966
from the wine industry.

491
00:23:04.647 --> 00:23:07.529
And they applied it to the superintents,

492
00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:08.090
to the olives.

493
00:23:08.390 --> 00:23:10.632
And so they were able to drive on top of the olives,

494
00:23:11.052 --> 00:23:14.615
shake the olives and harvest for half or less of the cost.

495
00:23:15.636 --> 00:23:18.598
And so it reduced a big part of the cost and also solved another problem,

496
00:23:18.618 --> 00:23:19.779
which is labor.

497
00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:20.821
availability,

498
00:23:21.861 --> 00:23:25.144
quality labor availability in the agricultural sector,

499
00:23:25.164 --> 00:23:26.345
which is a big issue.

500
00:23:26.365 --> 00:23:29.427
Everybody's moved out and gone to the city and farms are getting larger.

501
00:23:30.468 --> 00:23:31.849
Fewer people need to manage more land.

502
00:23:32.650 --> 00:23:41.917
So you see the transition between these three different systems where we've gained efficiency and we've entered with more technology.

503
00:23:42.337 --> 00:23:43.538
The super intensive systems,

504
00:23:43.859 --> 00:23:46.601
typically they have quite a significant irrigation.

505
00:23:47.541 --> 00:23:49.703
They don't need to be necessarily irrigated.

506
00:23:50.176 --> 00:23:51.037
but they typically do.

507
00:23:51.557 --> 00:23:52.318
They get irrigated,

508
00:23:52.438 --> 00:23:53.819
they are fertilized quite heavily,

509
00:23:53.859 --> 00:23:57.762
they depend quite a lot also on what are as done nowadays.

510
00:23:59.183 --> 00:24:02.205
They use a lot of agrochemicals as well to produce.

511
00:24:03.086 --> 00:24:04.487
And so you get a very high yield,

512
00:24:04.707 --> 00:24:06.068
like very high yield,

513
00:24:06.909 --> 00:24:09.411
averaging 12 tons of,

514
00:24:09.631 --> 00:24:10.572
in Portugal for example,

515
00:24:10.592 --> 00:24:12.333
averaging 12 tons of olive per hectare.

516
00:24:12.714 --> 00:24:12.874
Okay,

517
00:24:12.954 --> 00:24:16.617
so that's about 2,000-2,500 liters of olive oil.

518
00:24:17.624 --> 00:24:22.047
which is very high compared to a traditional orchard which will be producing between 200 and 400.

519
00:24:23.168 --> 00:24:37.119
um so very big difference economically much more viable less dependent on on labor yeah for harvesting more efficient on a variety of treatments and operations but

520
00:24:37.840 --> 00:24:46.627
with other issues around the intensity so when we call intensive and super intensive we're also talking we're talking mostly about the density of plants yeah but

521
00:24:47.004 --> 00:24:48.085
There's a bit of confusion there.

522
00:24:48.665 --> 00:24:50.387
Because one thing is the density of plants,

523
00:24:50.388 --> 00:24:52.909
but another thing is the intensity of the production system.

524
00:24:53.349 --> 00:24:53.749
Nowadays,

525
00:24:53.750 --> 00:24:55.331
you have super intensive groves,

526
00:24:55.531 --> 00:24:58.073
which are done organically and rain fed.

527
00:24:58.753 --> 00:25:02.476
It's just they've kept that kind of density of the hedge style.

528
00:25:03.577 --> 00:25:04.418
So typically,

529
00:25:04.538 --> 00:25:09.321
the super intensive went with a very intensive production approach,

530
00:25:09.442 --> 00:25:10.162
a lot of irrigation,

531
00:25:10.182 --> 00:25:10.302
etc.

532
00:25:10.903 --> 00:25:11.723
So high yields,

533
00:25:11.724 --> 00:25:12.184
as I said,

534
00:25:12.364 --> 00:25:15.106
but a lot of issues around

535
00:25:16.176 --> 00:25:16.696
dependency,

536
00:25:16.736 --> 00:25:17.296
for example,

537
00:25:17.456 --> 00:25:20.536
on water and fertilizers and agrochemicals,

538
00:25:20.716 --> 00:25:29.236
degrading agroecosystem health and socially and culturally creating some issues.

539
00:25:30.116 --> 00:25:33.296
A lot of people are happy with them because they're bringing work and etc.

540
00:25:33.876 --> 00:25:35.636
But a lot of the villages in Portugal,

541
00:25:35.656 --> 00:25:36.256
for example,

542
00:25:36.336 --> 00:25:40.536
and in different areas of Europe are complaining and are unhappy with the change in the landscape,

543
00:25:40.596 --> 00:25:42.416
with the intensity of the chemical use,

544
00:25:42.756 --> 00:25:44.396
the intensification of...

545
00:25:44.684 --> 00:26:00.496
of the basically of the landscape so there's it's it's also a political issue at the moment in portugal yeah okay so we need to be sensitive when we talk about this because um we need to take into account the socio-economic context here and um and

546
00:26:00.497 --> 00:26:08.042
be sent be sensitive to that um so yeah that's where we are right now focusing a lot because we see the issue

547
00:26:08.708 --> 00:26:24.380
but we also see the opportunity of these systems these systems us have solved many many problems and have have providing some efficient solutions so now we're trying to see if we can take these systems and shift them and maintain the planting

548
00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:33.828
density intensity but start to shift towards regenerative production okay okay yeah and um so yeah that's focusing quite a lot on

549
00:26:34.064 --> 00:26:50.657
on on olives almonds is slightly different but the tendency of intensification is similar okay okay yeah yeah you have these um these very intensive systems and they're allowed to produce a lot more for a lot cheaper using less labor and obviously

550
00:26:50.658 --> 00:26:57.963
for many people that's good it's more production more people fed um it's economically more interesting for the farmer or the landowner and all of that but on

551
00:26:58.820 --> 00:27:01.460
The minus side is that it puts a lot of pressure on the environment.

552
00:27:01.540 --> 00:27:01.660
It's,

553
00:27:02.180 --> 00:27:02.500
as you said,

554
00:27:02.540 --> 00:27:03.360
reliant on water,

555
00:27:04.660 --> 00:27:05.240
on inputs,

556
00:27:05.700 --> 00:27:06.300
on many things,

557
00:27:06.700 --> 00:27:06.940
right?

558
00:27:07.220 --> 00:27:08.300
Not just the environment.

559
00:27:09.380 --> 00:27:09.640
Also,

560
00:27:09.760 --> 00:27:10.380
what you're seeing is,

561
00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:13.900
and this is a typical pattern with intensive production systems,

562
00:27:14.020 --> 00:27:15.080
not just with tree crops,

563
00:27:15.081 --> 00:27:17.080
but we're also seeing it a lot with corn,

564
00:27:17.360 --> 00:27:17.560
okay,

565
00:27:17.900 --> 00:27:19.300
as we're working with corn.

566
00:27:20.820 --> 00:27:25.420
The intensity of production and of inputs is causing issues in resilience.

567
00:27:26.028 --> 00:27:29.831
So we're seeing the farmers are depending every time more on chemicals,

568
00:27:29.851 --> 00:27:30.452
for example,

569
00:27:30.892 --> 00:27:34.895
whilst having at the same time fewer and fewer options due to regulatory issues.

570
00:27:35.556 --> 00:27:40.219
So due to basically active substances being removed from the market by European regulation.

571
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:42.221
So there's a variety of things going on there,

572
00:27:42.261 --> 00:27:43.662
which we can unpack.

573
00:27:44.082 --> 00:27:46.204
But it's not just in terms of the ecosystems,

574
00:27:46.205 --> 00:27:50.367
but it's also in terms of the medium term business strategy for the farmers.

575
00:27:50.707 --> 00:27:52.309
You're seeing a degradation in soil health,

576
00:27:52.749 --> 00:27:55.131
which means that right now they have lots of water and they can And

577
00:27:55.460 --> 00:28:12.413
irrigate them quite a lot but all we need is two or three years of drought in the summer or sorry in the winter with poor rainfall and suddenly we'll be needing to reduce the farmers will be obliged to reduce the amount of water they will apply and if that's the case the degraded soils will be the ones that will be the most hit so

578
00:28:12.414 --> 00:28:24.763
the tree crops on a degraded soil condition will struggle a lot more than the ones on a healthy soil condition okay okay so it's also what we're seeing here is that this this intensity of production is degrading the agroecosystem health and

579
00:28:25.100 --> 00:28:26.800
reducing the services,

580
00:28:26.801 --> 00:28:32.080
the agronomic services that the soil and the functional biodiversity are providing.

581
00:28:32.660 --> 00:28:36.340
So you're losing resilience and you're gaining dependence little by little as well.

582
00:28:36.740 --> 00:28:39.880
You're gaining dependence on the inputs that are causing the issue.

583
00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:42.580
So it's basically a vicious cycle.

584
00:28:43.280 --> 00:28:43.420
Yeah,

585
00:28:43.660 --> 00:28:45.980
it's the same story we hear over and over,

586
00:28:46.040 --> 00:28:46.260
right?

587
00:28:46.300 --> 00:28:50.100
It's the short-term amazing gain for long-term problems.

588
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:50.840
Exactly.

589
00:28:51.769 --> 00:28:54.551
And an orchard lasts 30 years or 25,

590
00:28:54.571 --> 00:28:55.371
depending on the system.

591
00:28:56.292 --> 00:28:58.934
And so the issues that you're causing in the short term,

592
00:28:58.954 --> 00:29:01.776
you're going to feel them because it's going to be the same plant that's established there.

593
00:29:01.836 --> 00:29:06.420
You're not resetting the system with a good plowing and a good tillage and you plant your corn seed again.

594
00:29:06.800 --> 00:29:07.901
With the olives and the almonds,

595
00:29:08.702 --> 00:29:10.563
they're planted there and they're going to be there for 25,

596
00:29:10.603 --> 00:29:11.004
30 years.

597
00:29:11.024 --> 00:29:14.026
So what you do at the start is extremely important for the results,

598
00:29:14.326 --> 00:29:15.988
for the longevity of the orchard.

599
00:29:16.608 --> 00:29:17.569
And the kind of results,

600
00:29:17.570 --> 00:29:19.230
the economic returns you get over the cycle.

601
00:29:20.098 --> 00:29:20.301
Okay,

602
00:29:20.423 --> 00:29:20.747
but so...

603
00:29:21.600 --> 00:29:32.060
If the decision initially to plan these really dense and really intensive systems is the cause for all of these potential problems that you just described,

604
00:29:32.820 --> 00:29:43.420
why not in the first place design a system to be more extensive and less reliant on inputs on water and less prone to these problems that you have to later come in and try and fix?

605
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.960
So you said something at the start which is extensive.

606
00:29:48.280 --> 00:29:48.400
Yeah,

607
00:29:49.100 --> 00:29:49.220
so.

608
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:56.244
Here we have to understand the nuance of each farmer,

609
00:29:57.005 --> 00:29:57.545
each fund,

610
00:29:58.406 --> 00:30:04.170
each cooperative will have their own objectives in terms of what they want.

611
00:30:05.111 --> 00:30:16.040
So we as a technical support company don't come in and tell people you should be reducing your production or your economic objectives here.

612
00:30:16.840 --> 00:30:18.342
You need to reduce your profits.

613
00:30:19.044 --> 00:30:19.645
your profit,

614
00:30:20.926 --> 00:30:21.446
what do you call it?

615
00:30:21.506 --> 00:30:22.627
Your profit objectives.

616
00:30:24.288 --> 00:30:25.709
We come in and we tell them,

617
00:30:25.750 --> 00:30:25.930
okay,

618
00:30:26.270 --> 00:30:28.532
you're in the context that you are now with your objectives.

619
00:30:28.812 --> 00:30:29.873
Let's see if we can improve.

620
00:30:30.653 --> 00:30:32.315
So we never come in and say,

621
00:30:32.795 --> 00:30:36.118
we're going to be going towards reducing the intensity of production.

622
00:30:36.878 --> 00:30:37.519
We're saying,

623
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:38.179
and this is,

624
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:39.160
for example,

625
00:30:39.161 --> 00:30:44.204
in the case of a farmer that wants to continue maximizing profits and yield in his orchard,

626
00:30:44.205 --> 00:30:44.524
we say,

627
00:30:44.965 --> 00:30:45.185
okay,

628
00:30:45.385 --> 00:30:46.446
so we're going to,

629
00:30:46.866 --> 00:30:48.327
instead of doing intensive,

630
00:30:48.568 --> 00:31:03.520
production with a conventional highly input and chemical focus we're going to say okay let's maintain that intensity but let's use other tools let's use high intensity of biological management so we're

631
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:16.370
trying to get as much nitrogen in there as possible and as much nutrient cycling and phosphorus potassium production as possible but through cover crop management through biological enhancement microbiological enhancement

632
00:31:16.724 --> 00:31:20.287
So I like to say we're kind of bio-intensive.

633
00:31:21.087 --> 00:31:22.809
Yeah.

634
00:31:22.810 --> 00:31:24.870
And then another person can come up to us and tell us,

635
00:31:24.970 --> 00:31:25.191
okay,

636
00:31:25.291 --> 00:31:27.873
so now we've seen the system,

637
00:31:28.073 --> 00:31:30.495
we like the hedge system,

638
00:31:30.555 --> 00:31:32.236
but we want to make it more extensive,

639
00:31:32.296 --> 00:31:33.017
less intensive.

640
00:31:33.077 --> 00:31:33.297
Okay,

641
00:31:33.577 --> 00:31:34.998
so let's space it out some more.

642
00:31:35.299 --> 00:31:36.499
Let's reduce the amount of trees.

643
00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:39.362
Let's maybe think about an organic system,

644
00:31:39.842 --> 00:31:40.182
et cetera,

645
00:31:40.183 --> 00:31:40.523
et cetera.

646
00:31:40.563 --> 00:31:41.884
That is definitely an objective,

647
00:31:41.904 --> 00:31:43.825
but there's so much like the landscape.

648
00:31:44.005 --> 00:31:44.145
Yeah.

649
00:31:45.385 --> 00:31:46.646
of the farmers and the systems,

650
00:31:46.686 --> 00:31:46.806
etc.

651
00:31:46.966 --> 00:31:47.847
is quite diverse.

652
00:31:48.127 --> 00:31:48.247
Yeah,

653
00:31:48.327 --> 00:31:48.767
I imagine.

654
00:31:48.988 --> 00:31:49.908
But the intensive one,

655
00:31:51.129 --> 00:31:53.691
we are now working on maintaining the intensity,

656
00:31:54.031 --> 00:31:56.774
but with a biological in terms of life,

657
00:31:57.054 --> 00:31:59.196
not necessarily biological in terms of organic certification,

658
00:31:59.416 --> 00:32:01.097
but with a strong biological focus.

659
00:32:01.177 --> 00:32:01.297
Yeah,

660
00:32:01.617 --> 00:32:01.818
okay,

661
00:32:02.138 --> 00:32:02.598
I hear you.

662
00:32:03.379 --> 00:32:03.579
And

663
00:32:04.320 --> 00:32:10.284
I can't help but feel like there's a clear trade-off between productivity and resilience,

664
00:32:10.845 --> 00:32:13.467
because if you design a system to be as productive and as...

665
00:32:13.588 --> 00:32:15.670
profitable in the short term as possible,

666
00:32:16.490 --> 00:32:19.713
you need to compromise on the regenerative aspect of that system,

667
00:32:19.793 --> 00:32:19.993
right?

668
00:32:20.033 --> 00:32:23.856
Because you're much more dependent on inputs,

669
00:32:23.876 --> 00:32:24.577
on chemicals,

670
00:32:24.837 --> 00:32:25.357
on fuel,

671
00:32:25.477 --> 00:32:26.058
on water,

672
00:32:26.498 --> 00:32:27.159
on machinery,

673
00:32:27.879 --> 00:32:32.022
and all of these things have a negative impact on the health of your ecosystem,

674
00:32:32.243 --> 00:32:32.463
right?

675
00:32:33.444 --> 00:32:35.785
I think that if I understood correctly,

676
00:32:36.206 --> 00:32:41.770
you're mentioning a trade-off between profitability and resilience.

677
00:32:42.764 --> 00:32:50.210
I think they both go together because if you are developing a resilient system,

678
00:32:50.470 --> 00:32:51.871
you're going to have a more profitable system.

679
00:32:52.872 --> 00:32:53.833
But not in the short term.

680
00:32:54.093 --> 00:32:55.274
The problem is the time thing.

681
00:32:55.874 --> 00:32:56.635
Because firstly,

682
00:32:56.735 --> 00:32:58.697
to build resilience in the system,

683
00:32:59.237 --> 00:33:01.339
it's going to require a system change.

684
00:33:02.580 --> 00:33:03.821
It's going to require new practices.

685
00:33:03.861 --> 00:33:06.563
It often is going to require an investment in your soil.

686
00:33:06.564 --> 00:33:08.464
You're going to have to buy that compost,

687
00:33:08.925 --> 00:33:11.707
which costs 35 euros a ton delivered to your farm.

688
00:33:12.324 --> 00:33:15.767
and you're going to be applying minimum 10 tons per hectare.

689
00:33:16.107 --> 00:33:18.069
So it's already €350,

690
00:33:18.689 --> 00:33:19.910
which represents about 10%

691
00:33:20.330 --> 00:33:20.490
of,

692
00:33:20.851 --> 00:33:21.451
or a bit less,

693
00:33:21.952 --> 00:33:22.592
but between 5%

694
00:33:22.593 --> 00:33:23.132
and 10%

695
00:33:23.313 --> 00:33:24.133
of your olive oil

696
00:33:24.754 --> 00:33:25.354
OPEX cost,

697
00:33:25.434 --> 00:33:25.895
of your olive,

698
00:33:25.935 --> 00:33:26.095
sorry,

699
00:33:26.635 --> 00:33:28.036
super intensive olive OPEX costs.

700
00:33:28.637 --> 00:33:31.559
It's quite a significant investment just to try and invest in compost.

701
00:33:31.560 --> 00:33:35.802
So these are the short-term costs where often we're talking about the J curve of a transition,

702
00:33:35.862 --> 00:33:39.045
where initially you will have slightly higher cost of production.

703
00:33:39.125 --> 00:33:40.886
You can have slightly higher cost of production.

704
00:33:41.608 --> 00:33:41.828
Again,

705
00:33:41.848 --> 00:33:44.050
this depends a lot where the farmer starts.

706
00:33:44.270 --> 00:33:46.312
That's something we need to just clarify later on.

707
00:33:46.352 --> 00:33:49.134
But you have a J curve where you have slightly higher cost of production.

708
00:33:49.234 --> 00:33:50.555
So your profit goes down.

709
00:33:50.855 --> 00:33:51.616
But in the future,

710
00:33:51.936 --> 00:33:52.517
it goes up.

711
00:33:53.117 --> 00:33:53.978
Depending on context,

712
00:33:53.979 --> 00:33:55.219
it can be sooner or later.

713
00:33:55.579 --> 00:34:00.423
And what we're trying to do is be very efficient with our practices so that the J curve is as small as possible.

714
00:34:00.543 --> 00:34:04.006
And we as soon as as quickly as possible get to the point where we're making more money.

715
00:34:04.386 --> 00:34:05.207
How are we making more money?

716
00:34:05.327 --> 00:34:06.688
Because either we're increasing yield,

717
00:34:07.208 --> 00:34:09.310
difficult and highly intensive systems.

718
00:34:09.350 --> 00:34:10.811
They're already maximizing yield.

719
00:34:11.148 --> 00:34:13.268
So what we're trying to do here is trying to reduce costs.

720
00:34:13.888 --> 00:34:15.608
And you reduce costs by having a system,

721
00:34:15.668 --> 00:34:18.148
a soil system that's providing agronomic services to you.

722
00:34:18.688 --> 00:34:19.668
One of them is resilience,

723
00:34:19.708 --> 00:34:21.128
but another one is just this year,

724
00:34:21.268 --> 00:34:26.348
it's providing nitrogen and phosphorus and potassium and micronutrients because it's got an active nutrient cycling.

725
00:34:26.988 --> 00:34:31.828
And so that's the situation where suddenly you can cut down on fertilization costs,

726
00:34:31.848 --> 00:34:34.868
but also because you've got a healthy soil microbiology,

727
00:34:34.968 --> 00:34:35.868
you've got a healthier tree.

728
00:34:36.408 --> 00:34:38.528
And so you're also cutting down on other costs like treatments,

729
00:34:38.588 --> 00:34:38.708
etc.

730
00:34:39.308 --> 00:34:40.268
So that's where we want to get to.

731
00:34:41.691 --> 00:34:44.113
And so that is also the place of resilience.

732
00:34:44.293 --> 00:34:47.095
A healthy soil not only provides these benefits I mentioned,

733
00:34:47.096 --> 00:34:48.436
but also provides the resilience,

734
00:34:48.696 --> 00:34:49.797
a better resistance to drought,

735
00:34:49.817 --> 00:34:50.598
for example.

736
00:34:51.518 --> 00:34:53.120
And so both go together.

737
00:34:53.980 --> 00:34:54.160
Okay,

738
00:34:54.300 --> 00:34:54.421
yeah.

739
00:34:54.701 --> 00:35:02.107
I'm pushing you a little bit on this because I'm trying to really understand if it's possible to have these super intensive systems that require a lot of inputs,

740
00:35:02.127 --> 00:35:03.588
that have so many trees,

741
00:35:03.589 --> 00:35:03.828
you said,

742
00:35:03.968 --> 00:35:04.088
what,

743
00:35:04.128 --> 00:35:05.329
2000 trees per hectare,

744
00:35:05.389 --> 00:35:06.250
which looks super,

745
00:35:06.270 --> 00:35:06.810
super dense,

746
00:35:07.691 --> 00:35:09.292
and be truly regenerative.

747
00:35:09.982 --> 00:35:10.763
And is it,

748
00:35:10.823 --> 00:35:22.372
are we talking about helping those super intensive systems be a bit less bad and a little bit better by using all of these methods that we're going to go into more depth in later in the conversation?

749
00:35:24.513 --> 00:35:27.776
Or can we actually have this level of intensity?

750
00:35:28.342 --> 00:35:44.495
and density and be truly regenerative meaning that we're improving soil health we're improving biodiversity we're improving water cycles all of these things that's a really good question and that's the question that we receive quite a lot we are um so

751
00:35:44.675 --> 00:35:57.605
i can't tell you this like yes i mean i'd like to be able to provide a simple answer here but it's not a yes so i need to go into a bit more detail firstly we created the arbo innova project

752
00:35:57.878 --> 00:35:59.900
where we are measuring a variety of KPIs,

753
00:36:00.020 --> 00:36:01.301
including water,

754
00:36:01.701 --> 00:36:02.442
biodiversity,

755
00:36:03.162 --> 00:36:03.803
plant health,

756
00:36:04.864 --> 00:36:05.784
looking at soil health.

757
00:36:06.365 --> 00:36:07.025
So we're looking at,

758
00:36:07.846 --> 00:36:08.306
for example,

759
00:36:08.366 --> 00:36:09.127
soil diversity.

760
00:36:11.449 --> 00:36:12.449
And biodiversity,

761
00:36:12.450 --> 00:36:20.175
we're looking at insect populations and calculating and measuring between our regenerative and our conventional plots,

762
00:36:20.215 --> 00:36:20.956
comparing the two.

763
00:36:21.336 --> 00:36:25.580
So we're really looking at it from an ecosystem health perspective as well,

764
00:36:25.600 --> 00:36:27.081
not just an agronomic performance.

765
00:36:27.646 --> 00:36:29.886
So we'll be able to,

766
00:36:30.006 --> 00:36:33.466
when the data starts coming out in a few years,

767
00:36:34.006 --> 00:36:37.446
we'll have the first set of data in a year and more robust data in two years.

768
00:36:37.447 --> 00:36:37.866
In three years,

769
00:36:37.867 --> 00:36:38.706
the project's closed,

770
00:36:39.426 --> 00:36:41.626
or at least the first set,

771
00:36:41.946 --> 00:36:44.226
which will have been four years of agronomic practices.

772
00:36:45.206 --> 00:36:46.906
We'll be able to answer those things quite clearly.

773
00:36:47.006 --> 00:36:47.706
We'll be able to see,

774
00:36:47.806 --> 00:36:48.046
you know,

775
00:36:48.166 --> 00:36:51.466
what can we do or what have we been able to do with regenerative practice?

776
00:36:52.766 --> 00:36:55.406
So the data on this is...

777
00:36:55.614 --> 00:36:58.296
quite sparse in terms of then the science.

778
00:36:58.756 --> 00:37:00.558
It's not easy to find a lot of science on.

779
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:02.199
Clearly,

780
00:37:02.619 --> 00:37:09.825
you see that currently the super intensive olive systems have less biodiversity than traditional systems,

781
00:37:09.945 --> 00:37:10.686
if we're going to compare.

782
00:37:11.546 --> 00:37:14.969
The problem is there's very few regenerative super intensive systems out there.

783
00:37:15.750 --> 00:37:16.310
So there's a lot,

784
00:37:16.690 --> 00:37:18.812
very little data on what we can do with regenerative.

785
00:37:19.673 --> 00:37:24.176
But what we do have is organic farmers that are using the super intensive system.

786
00:37:24.970 --> 00:37:25.190
Again,

787
00:37:25.330 --> 00:37:27.010
not a crazy amount of data on this,

788
00:37:27.470 --> 00:37:31.610
but what I've experienced myself here in the context where we're having an organic,

789
00:37:31.790 --> 00:37:33.390
just next to our farm,

790
00:37:33.750 --> 00:37:34.470
we have an organic,

791
00:37:34.650 --> 00:37:36.890
a few kilometers away,

792
00:37:37.230 --> 00:37:38.630
we have an organic producer there.

793
00:37:41.410 --> 00:37:42.890
And he's got this hedge,

794
00:37:43.610 --> 00:37:44.490
super intensive system,

795
00:37:44.590 --> 00:37:45.390
2000 trees,

796
00:37:46.070 --> 00:37:47.150
he's irrigating,

797
00:37:47.810 --> 00:37:49.110
getting high yields,

798
00:37:49.130 --> 00:37:49.530
he's 20%

799
00:37:49.890 --> 00:37:50.950
below conventional yields,

800
00:37:52.510 --> 00:37:54.490
and he is in an organic system.

801
00:37:54.786 --> 00:38:15.002
his fertilization is just with manure he sprays two to three times a year with organic he hardly sprays insecticides he mostly sprays fungicides in organics or copper-based fungicides in two or three times during the year so we're in a situation where when you know when i started talking to him and understanding his system and visiting his farm and seeing the soil i dug

802
00:38:15.003 --> 00:38:24.049
in the soil and i saw all of this this mushroom growth there and or mycelium growth and it just it just felt different you go in there and it was a lot of life a lot of insects so

803
00:38:25.130 --> 00:38:31.015
This is the kind of feedback we're getting from the field where it's possible to keep this planting density,

804
00:38:32.216 --> 00:38:34.678
but apply an organic system to it,

805
00:38:34.738 --> 00:38:36.999
which we know very well from studies,

806
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:41.943
just how much better organic is in terms of biodiversity and ecological metrics.

807
00:38:43.044 --> 00:38:44.725
So that's very promising.

808
00:38:46.627 --> 00:38:46.787
Now,

809
00:38:47.568 --> 00:38:48.188
the question is,

810
00:38:48.508 --> 00:38:50.890
how do we adapt the conventional?

811
00:38:52.672 --> 00:38:54.033
Can we maintain a conventional?

812
00:38:54.294 --> 00:38:55.914
production system and make it regenerative.

813
00:38:57.634 --> 00:39:00.354
I was more hesitant at the start a few years ago.

814
00:39:00.994 --> 00:39:01.274
Now

815
00:39:02.634 --> 00:39:07.274
I'm quite confident that we can significantly improve these systems.

816
00:39:07.334 --> 00:39:09.794
And I think that these systems can become,

817
00:39:10.714 --> 00:39:18.234
if we transition them and especially get pretty close to organic in terms of reducing the use,

818
00:39:18.294 --> 00:39:21.374
significantly reducing the use of external inputs.

819
00:39:21.802 --> 00:39:25.505
I think we can get towards a system that is a net producer of ecosystem services.

820
00:39:25.965 --> 00:39:26.165
Okay.

821
00:39:27.326 --> 00:39:31.470
Just a really quick pause to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast,

822
00:39:31.810 --> 00:39:32.430
Soil Capital.

823
00:39:33.570 --> 00:39:37.873
Most farmers I've met love the idea of transitioning to regenerative agriculture,

824
00:39:38.434 --> 00:39:41.797
but a lot of the time they lack the financial incentives to do so.

825
00:39:42.377 --> 00:39:44.078
And that's where Soil Capital comes in.

826
00:39:44.699 --> 00:39:48.402
They financially reward farmers who improve things like soil health,

827
00:39:48.762 --> 00:39:50.944
water cycles and biodiversity.

828
00:39:51.804 --> 00:39:53.045
They're an incredible company.

829
00:39:53.205 --> 00:39:58.670
I personally really love what they're doing and I'm really proud to be partnering with them for the Deep Seed podcast.

830
00:39:58.671 --> 00:39:58.770
Okay,

831
00:39:58.771 --> 00:40:02.953
so we've established that there is...

832
00:40:03.142 --> 00:40:03.902
a growing,

833
00:40:03.903 --> 00:40:09.362
a fast growing number of super intensive tree crop systems being planted in Europe,

834
00:40:10.022 --> 00:40:11.982
especially in the Mediterranean region.

835
00:40:13.122 --> 00:40:17.202
And so the question we're going to be looking at for the rest of the conversation is,

836
00:40:17.602 --> 00:40:21.642
how do we make these systems as regenerative as possible?

837
00:40:21.742 --> 00:40:31.942
How do we stop damaging these ecosystems and start regenerating them and doing that while maintaining production and profits?

838
00:40:33.174 --> 00:40:33.354
Okay,

839
00:40:33.494 --> 00:40:38.718
maybe you could talk us through the different practices and methods that you use to achieve that.

840
00:40:39.619 --> 00:40:39.739
Yeah,

841
00:40:39.959 --> 00:40:42.501
just to bounce off what you were saying initially as well.

842
00:40:43.462 --> 00:40:50.508
It's clear that we are moving towards intensive and a lot of intensive orchards are being replaced with super intensive orchards.

843
00:40:50.648 --> 00:40:53.630
Traditional orchards are generally not being taken out and replaced.

844
00:40:54.110 --> 00:40:57.433
They're maintaining because there's a market as well for high quality olive oil,

845
00:40:57.513 --> 00:40:58.414
which is one aspect.

846
00:40:58.958 --> 00:40:59.878
which we can talk about,

847
00:40:59.958 --> 00:41:04.018
but the super intensive systems tend to have a lower quality olive oil compared to traditional systems.

848
00:41:04.538 --> 00:41:07.198
But the intensive systems are being changed to super intensive,

849
00:41:07.278 --> 00:41:10.158
and there's more and more super intensive systems in general being planted.

850
00:41:10.218 --> 00:41:11.398
So there's an increase in area.

851
00:41:12.138 --> 00:41:12.558
So yeah,

852
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:13.278
this is a trend.

853
00:41:13.498 --> 00:41:14.018
As I said,

854
00:41:14.138 --> 00:41:23.558
there are some socioeconomic parameters and factors beyond our control that are defining this movement towards this.

855
00:41:23.938 --> 00:41:26.018
And this is a trend that we're seeing throughout agriculture,

856
00:41:26.098 --> 00:41:27.078
the intensification.

857
00:41:27.486 --> 00:41:30.268
And it's also a trend that's being driven by higher population.

858
00:41:31.890 --> 00:41:33.531
So increases in population,

859
00:41:33.551 --> 00:41:35.012
which is still continuing to increase.

860
00:41:35.013 --> 00:41:38.274
So taking that context as a given,

861
00:41:38.995 --> 00:41:40.676
that we're not challenging that too much,

862
00:41:41.637 --> 00:41:42.238
that we say,

863
00:41:42.298 --> 00:41:42.478
okay,

864
00:41:42.558 --> 00:41:43.779
we've got this at the moment,

865
00:41:43.979 --> 00:41:45.500
we've got this need for high production,

866
00:41:47.602 --> 00:41:48.202
high yield,

867
00:41:48.783 --> 00:41:50.544
high profit pressures as well,

868
00:41:50.784 --> 00:41:51.285
what can we do?

869
00:41:51.965 --> 00:41:52.586
And that's when,

870
00:41:52.786 --> 00:41:53.186
of course,

871
00:41:53.667 --> 00:41:54.407
we come in with,

872
00:41:54.547 --> 00:41:54.707
okay,

873
00:41:54.727 --> 00:41:56.449
so what can we do with our

874
00:41:56.970 --> 00:41:58.251
our regenerative practices.

875
00:41:59.032 --> 00:42:03.335
And so your question was what are the different things that you can do within the orchard?

876
00:42:04.976 --> 00:42:11.822
And so what we're doing when we're just to clarify for people,

877
00:42:12.022 --> 00:42:14.164
because there's obviously a lot of different practices,

878
00:42:14.184 --> 00:42:15.204
a lot of things going on,

879
00:42:17.146 --> 00:42:19.588
let's separate them into a basic framework.

880
00:42:20.649 --> 00:42:22.490
We are working on the soil,

881
00:42:23.591 --> 00:42:24.091
the plant,

882
00:42:24.492 --> 00:42:25.172
and the landscape.

883
00:42:27.150 --> 00:42:27.830
Beyond this,

884
00:42:28.510 --> 00:42:29.970
the different regenerative practices,

885
00:42:30.170 --> 00:42:34.210
we're also working with another approach or complementary approach,

886
00:42:34.230 --> 00:42:41.270
which is we usually start off with best practices and then we go towards the regenerative practices,

887
00:42:41.390 --> 00:42:42.750
implementing new practices.

888
00:42:43.470 --> 00:42:45.070
What do I mean by best practices?

889
00:42:45.230 --> 00:42:49.630
I mean optimizing the current practices that are being used on the farm.

890
00:42:50.050 --> 00:42:50.650
For example,

891
00:42:50.930 --> 00:42:54.490
we are spraying herbicides four to six times a year.

892
00:42:55.318 --> 00:42:55.658
with

893
00:42:56.099 --> 00:42:58.881
3 to 4 liters of the product per spray.

894
00:42:59.641 --> 00:43:06.547
Our objective with best practices is to reduce the amount of sprays and to reduce the quantity of the product used by optimizing,

895
00:43:06.587 --> 00:43:07.047
for example,

896
00:43:07.087 --> 00:43:10.390
water quality or timing of application.

897
00:43:11.871 --> 00:43:20.978
So you can do that and there's a significant need for improvements with best practices in our specific context in Portugal,

898
00:43:20.998 --> 00:43:23.380
but this is usually what we're seeing in many places.

899
00:43:24.270 --> 00:43:25.731
best practices are not always applied.

900
00:43:26.312 --> 00:43:31.536
And so there's quite big cost savings and ecological gains from just being optimising,

901
00:43:31.576 --> 00:43:34.538
from just being more efficient within the current logic,

902
00:43:34.658 --> 00:43:35.019
which is,

903
00:43:35.139 --> 00:43:35.379
you know,

904
00:43:35.919 --> 00:43:36.900
using herbicides,

905
00:43:37.240 --> 00:43:38.762
we are putting out fertilisers,

906
00:43:38.802 --> 00:43:38.922
etc.

907
00:43:39.582 --> 00:43:40.983
So we can reduce our fertiliser use,

908
00:43:40.984 --> 00:43:42.264
we can reduce our herbicide use,

909
00:43:42.344 --> 00:43:45.487
and we can often also optimise our spraying and spray less.

910
00:43:47.168 --> 00:43:49.830
That's the first step because obviously it frees up a bit of OPEX.

911
00:43:50.234 --> 00:43:53.274
operational expenses to be able to invest in new practices.

912
00:43:53.334 --> 00:43:54.554
And that's where we often see,

913
00:43:55.054 --> 00:43:55.494
not often,

914
00:43:55.514 --> 00:43:56.454
but we can see,

915
00:43:56.634 --> 00:43:58.274
depending on where the farm is starting,

916
00:43:58.854 --> 00:44:06.854
that we don't actually have a big increase in costs with regenerative because we are reducing costs with best practices.

917
00:44:07.234 --> 00:44:09.314
And then we're occupying that space with a cover crop,

918
00:44:09.374 --> 00:44:09.914
for example,

919
00:44:09.934 --> 00:44:11.594
planting for a few years,

920
00:44:11.634 --> 00:44:14.894
which generates a return on investment after the second and third year.

921
00:44:15.234 --> 00:44:16.994
And so we can be kind of positive,

922
00:44:17.054 --> 00:44:18.114
economically positive,

923
00:44:19.354 --> 00:44:19.474
the

924
00:44:19.642 --> 00:44:24.762
if the farmer has a big opportunity or is not optimized and not efficient in his farm.

925
00:44:24.862 --> 00:44:25.062
Okay,

926
00:44:25.442 --> 00:44:26.402
so it depends where we start.

927
00:44:26.862 --> 00:44:29.402
So we first start with best practices and then we start to implement,

928
00:44:29.602 --> 00:44:31.002
or at the same time as well,

929
00:44:31.003 --> 00:44:33.742
we slowly start to implement regenerative practices.

930
00:44:33.902 --> 00:44:36.002
These regenerative practices are structured in,

931
00:44:36.442 --> 00:44:36.902
as I said,

932
00:44:37.022 --> 00:44:37.282
soil,

933
00:44:37.422 --> 00:44:38.422
plant and landscape.

934
00:44:38.762 --> 00:44:41.982
The soil ones specifically focus on enhancing soil health.

935
00:44:42.728 --> 00:44:43.928
So amendments,

936
00:44:44.208 --> 00:44:44.888
cover crops,

937
00:44:45.128 --> 00:44:45.768
for example,

938
00:44:46.088 --> 00:44:50.388
amendments would be making sure we're applying our calcium amendments when necessary,

939
00:44:50.788 --> 00:44:57.228
making sure we are balancing our soil in terms of the major nutrients and minor nutrients as well,

940
00:44:57.268 --> 00:44:57.868
and micros,

941
00:44:58.668 --> 00:45:03.408
making sure we're applying compost to start to feed the soil with some organic matter,

942
00:45:03.428 --> 00:45:07.728
let's try and increase the level of microbiological activity and water infiltration,

943
00:45:08.668 --> 00:45:09.628
preventing erosion,

944
00:45:09.688 --> 00:45:10.468
which is a big issue.

945
00:45:10.676 --> 00:45:25.756
in our orchard so really working on that as a big focus with the cover crops starting to produce biomass so the the biomass is the key for soil health so when the biomass decomposes the soil starts to activate itself itself so that's the soil then

946
00:45:25.796 --> 00:45:39.876
we've got the plant um on the on the plant level we are starting to work in improving the plant health okay uh so and that is usually a nutritional perspective and also phytotoxicity perspective so we're trying to improve crop nutrition.

947
00:45:39.996 --> 00:45:40.236
Bye.

948
00:45:40.744 --> 00:45:43.066
by making sure that we are doing the right analyses,

949
00:45:43.086 --> 00:45:47.169
that we are providing a complete set of nutrients.

950
00:45:48.370 --> 00:45:50.752
And then in terms of reducing phytotoxicity,

951
00:45:50.932 --> 00:45:51.212
again,

952
00:45:51.292 --> 00:45:57.457
we're trying to reduce and remove as much as possible chemicals like glyphosate or like herbicides,

953
00:45:57.677 --> 00:45:59.499
which have a phytotoxic effect on plants.

954
00:45:59.879 --> 00:46:02.321
They chelate metals and micronutrients,

955
00:46:02.741 --> 00:46:05.704
which then become unavailable to the plant for uptake.

956
00:46:05.724 --> 00:46:07.665
There's a lot of things going on like this with this

957
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:10.242
in these intensive systems with high chemical use,

958
00:46:10.262 --> 00:46:11.783
because you get the positive side,

959
00:46:11.803 --> 00:46:13.865
which is I don't have weeds or I'm fertilizing,

960
00:46:13.905 --> 00:46:18.308
but the negative side is also I'm creating toxicities which the plant needs to recover from.

961
00:46:19.009 --> 00:46:22.331
So that's what we're working on in terms of the plant.

962
00:46:23.532 --> 00:46:25.113
And I'm summarizing here.

963
00:46:25.414 --> 00:46:26.475
And then the landscape,

964
00:46:26.575 --> 00:46:29.457
we're starting to look at how do we optimize landscape function?

965
00:46:29.837 --> 00:46:33.000
So that is looking at flower strips and biodiversity areas,

966
00:46:33.520 --> 00:46:34.721
looking at planting hedges,

967
00:46:35.702 --> 00:46:37.323
planting riparian areas as well.

968
00:46:38.076 --> 00:46:38.757
Reducing,

969
00:46:38.897 --> 00:46:42.440
often that we are applying herbicides in areas which are not necessary,

970
00:46:42.780 --> 00:46:45.142
which we can just leave for some natural growth,

971
00:46:45.202 --> 00:46:48.945
which provide a lot of basically benefits in terms of functional biodiversity.

972
00:46:49.405 --> 00:46:50.646
What's functional biodiversity?

973
00:46:50.786 --> 00:46:53.068
It's biodiversity not just for the sake of biodiversity,

974
00:46:53.388 --> 00:46:56.651
but biodiversity for the sake of producing agronomic services to the farm.

975
00:46:56.991 --> 00:46:57.191
Okay.

976
00:46:57.671 --> 00:47:01.835
So those are the three approaches and some of the practices we implement.

977
00:47:02.195 --> 00:47:02.855
Okay.

978
00:47:03.556 --> 00:47:06.178
If we focus a little bit on the cover crop aspect for now,

979
00:47:06.198 --> 00:47:06.859
or the soil health.

980
00:47:07.488 --> 00:47:08.970
And go a little bit deeper into that.

981
00:47:09.570 --> 00:47:11.151
What kind of cover crops have you used?

982
00:47:11.191 --> 00:47:13.273
What kind of results have you seen so far?

983
00:47:14.674 --> 00:47:14.794
Yeah,

984
00:47:14.795 --> 00:47:17.036
so cover crops are very soil,

985
00:47:18.317 --> 00:47:19.638
are very context specific.

986
00:47:19.938 --> 00:47:22.100
It's such a boring thing to say.

987
00:47:22.101 --> 00:47:23.081
We hear it all the time,

988
00:47:23.101 --> 00:47:23.361
you know,

989
00:47:26.443 --> 00:47:27.724
especially in the regenerative space,

990
00:47:27.725 --> 00:47:28.345
but it's very true.

991
00:47:28.925 --> 00:47:30.706
Because when you're working with life,

992
00:47:30.726 --> 00:47:31.247
of course,

993
00:47:31.447 --> 00:47:31.687
you know,

994
00:47:31.767 --> 00:47:34.730
life looks a bit different in different places and different soils,

995
00:47:34.770 --> 00:47:35.210
especially.

996
00:47:35.740 --> 00:47:36.521
And so we're seeing,

997
00:47:36.661 --> 00:47:40.704
we're planting two different types of cover crops because we're actually testing this scientifically.

998
00:47:40.764 --> 00:47:45.928
We've got one of our trials is testing a cover crop that is very rich in legumes,

999
00:47:47.069 --> 00:47:48.370
so very legume focused.

1000
00:47:49.091 --> 00:47:50.832
And another one which is more rich in,

1001
00:47:51.112 --> 00:47:51.693
well with a very,

1002
00:47:51.893 --> 00:47:53.194
with a high biomass focus.

1003
00:47:54.275 --> 00:47:56.196
Both contain a mixture of species,

1004
00:47:56.757 --> 00:47:57.657
six plus species,

1005
00:47:57.697 --> 00:47:58.698
you're typically around ten,

1006
00:47:59.278 --> 00:47:59.459
but

1007
00:48:01.757 --> 00:48:02.397
In one instance,

1008
00:48:02.417 --> 00:48:04.419
we're really pushing it in terms of legumes.

1009
00:48:04.420 --> 00:48:05.340
They occupy maybe 60%

1010
00:48:06.120 --> 00:48:06.540
of the mix,

1011
00:48:06.621 --> 00:48:07.181
whilst on the other,

1012
00:48:07.201 --> 00:48:08.322
they only occupy 30,

1013
00:48:08.402 --> 00:48:08.622
20,

1014
00:48:08.702 --> 00:48:09.183
30%

1015
00:48:09.184 --> 00:48:09.523
of the mix.

1016
00:48:09.563 --> 00:48:12.045
And we're working with cruciferous plants and grasses,

1017
00:48:12.705 --> 00:48:13.186
and cereals,

1018
00:48:13.226 --> 00:48:13.486
basically,

1019
00:48:13.487 --> 00:48:14.046
annual grasses.

1020
00:48:14.847 --> 00:48:17.889
So we're testing both of them on all farms.

1021
00:48:17.890 --> 00:48:19.931
And what you can see is that we've got one farm,

1022
00:48:19.932 --> 00:48:21.092
which is very sandy soil,

1023
00:48:21.632 --> 00:48:22.333
and another farm,

1024
00:48:22.473 --> 00:48:23.033
quite acidic,

1025
00:48:23.034 --> 00:48:23.754
and then another farm,

1026
00:48:23.774 --> 00:48:25.675
which is this calcareous vertisol,

1027
00:48:25.715 --> 00:48:26.696
which is basically 60%

1028
00:48:26.836 --> 00:48:27.297
clay.

1029
00:48:27.557 --> 00:48:27.777
Very,

1030
00:48:27.937 --> 00:48:28.157
like...

1031
00:48:28.672 --> 00:48:55.453
the clay some of the most clay rich soils that you have in the world and so you can see that the cover crops are behaving differently in both contexts um in the sandy soil we're seeing that the the legume mix is behaving very well because there is a lack of nutrients and so the the the legumes are able to fix their own nitrogen in an in a condition where you have limited nutrient availability compared to the clay to the to the clay soils where we've got a much better development of

1032
00:48:55.454 --> 00:48:56.874
the biomass cover crop.

1033
00:48:57.172 --> 00:49:03.237
because it's got the resources there already available due to the clays that allows it to develop well.

1034
00:49:03.517 --> 00:49:04.478
So in both instances,

1035
00:49:04.558 --> 00:49:05.038
you can't say,

1036
00:49:05.659 --> 00:49:05.879
again,

1037
00:49:06.099 --> 00:49:07.140
one is better than the other,

1038
00:49:07.200 --> 00:49:07.540
you'd say,

1039
00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:09.762
what is the best in these conditions?

1040
00:49:10.222 --> 00:49:10.362
Yeah,

1041
00:49:10.583 --> 00:49:10.783
okay.

1042
00:49:11.443 --> 00:49:14.185
So that's what we're seeing a lot with cover crops.

1043
00:49:14.586 --> 00:49:16.427
And I guess all of the work that you're doing,

1044
00:49:16.968 --> 00:49:17.368
testing,

1045
00:49:17.448 --> 00:49:17.948
measuring,

1046
00:49:18.148 --> 00:49:19.710
trialing different cover crops,

1047
00:49:20.090 --> 00:49:23.713
and gathering all of that data is going to help in the future,

1048
00:49:23.773 --> 00:49:24.013
right?

1049
00:49:25.176 --> 00:49:36.585
Do you think that soon we'll be able to prescribe very specific cover crop mixes to farmers in order to solve their specific problems in their specific context and get the best possible results?

1050
00:49:37.632 --> 00:49:39.333
I think we already have quite a bit of knowledge.

1051
00:49:39.353 --> 00:49:39.814
For example,

1052
00:49:39.894 --> 00:49:45.118
certain plants and species we know are best adapted to acidic conditions,

1053
00:49:45.278 --> 00:49:46.479
others to calcareous conditions.

1054
00:49:46.539 --> 00:49:50.582
Some plants don't tolerate very well excessive water in the soil.

1055
00:49:50.922 --> 00:49:52.304
So water logging conditions,

1056
00:49:52.504 --> 00:49:53.524
even if they're temporary.

1057
00:49:54.525 --> 00:49:55.286
Other plants need,

1058
00:49:55.786 --> 00:49:56.006
you know,

1059
00:49:56.007 --> 00:49:57.127
they don't like sandy soil.

1060
00:49:57.167 --> 00:49:58.248
So we have this knowledge.

1061
00:50:00.510 --> 00:50:00.890
Of course,

1062
00:50:00.970 --> 00:50:02.171
we're refining it now.

1063
00:50:02.491 --> 00:50:02.652
Okay.

1064
00:50:02.872 --> 00:50:02.992
Yeah.

1065
00:50:03.492 --> 00:50:05.254
And so we're finding it and we're especially...

1066
00:50:05.424 --> 00:50:21.557
putting it to test because many times in farming and i think that a lot of farmers listening to this will will be able to relate to this but in theory they say this and then in practice you see something different it's very common so we're also you know really testing it so but just to answer what you're saying um of

1067
00:50:21.617 --> 00:50:29.243
course we are going to get to a point where for this specific system and this specific soil type which is quite representative of the region

1068
00:50:30.729 --> 00:50:35.192
we'll know this is the cover crop mix that does well here for these specific objectives.

1069
00:50:35.613 --> 00:50:36.754
Because a cover crop is not,

1070
00:50:37.054 --> 00:50:38.335
you don't just plant a cover crop,

1071
00:50:38.375 --> 00:50:40.296
you plant a cover crop to meet an objective.

1072
00:50:40.617 --> 00:50:42.918
Sometimes the objective is cleaning the soil from nematodes,

1073
00:50:42.919 --> 00:50:45.120
so then you're going to fumigate with cruciferous plants.

1074
00:50:45.500 --> 00:50:47.382
Other times the objective is really nutritional,

1075
00:50:47.442 --> 00:50:48.943
let's boost nitrogen in the soil.

1076
00:50:49.283 --> 00:50:51.925
Other times it's structural and erosion prevention.

1077
00:50:52.366 --> 00:50:58.150
So you want to first start with a good diagnostic and understand what are the key limiting factors

1078
00:50:58.632 --> 00:51:01.094
or the key opportunities in the system.

1079
00:51:01.454 --> 00:51:02.715
And once you've identified those,

1080
00:51:02.735 --> 00:51:08.180
you prioritize and you start interventions that specifically target those challenges.

1081
00:51:08.460 --> 00:51:09.421
And that's what I'm saying.

1082
00:51:09.601 --> 00:51:16.266
That's an example of how we want to be really efficient in our regenerative intervention.

1083
00:51:18.347 --> 00:51:24.072
If we want to be limiting the costs of the regenerative transition and the regenerative practices,

1084
00:51:24.112 --> 00:51:25.033
and at the same time,

1085
00:51:25.373 --> 00:51:27.855
maximizing the benefits to reduce this J curve,

1086
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:57.683
we're gonna this is the kind of detail where we're needing to work on yeah so it's really okay so we're specifically targeting this and we've got these different tools and in fact what's interesting as well is that the objectives change through time so the beginning when we've controlled erosion because we've put a good enough layer of biomass we can start to focus on the on on the nitrogen for example and we can start to focus on on the the nutritional aspects right is that something that you see a lot in these uh super intensive systems that the biggest problem first is trying to control the erosion.

1087
00:51:58.368 --> 00:52:00.109
It depends on the soil conditions.

1088
00:52:00.169 --> 00:52:00.790
Sometimes yes,

1089
00:52:00.830 --> 00:52:01.390
sometimes no.

1090
00:52:01.391 --> 00:52:02.431
It depends on the slope,

1091
00:52:02.651 --> 00:52:03.572
depends on the soil type,

1092
00:52:03.592 --> 00:52:04.073
as I said.

1093
00:52:05.173 --> 00:52:07.075
But typically there is a lot of erosion.

1094
00:52:07.295 --> 00:52:07.595
Why?

1095
00:52:07.735 --> 00:52:10.177
Because you have an intensive system.

1096
00:52:10.357 --> 00:52:11.879
It means intensive inputs.

1097
00:52:12.339 --> 00:52:14.781
Intensive input means you need to get out there and put them out.

1098
00:52:15.381 --> 00:52:16.462
So intensive sprays,

1099
00:52:16.562 --> 00:52:17.363
if you're going to be spraying,

1100
00:52:17.364 --> 00:52:17.563
you know,

1101
00:52:17.643 --> 00:52:18.784
10 to 12 times in a year,

1102
00:52:18.785 --> 00:52:20.866
it means you need to take your tractor out there and you need to do it,

1103
00:52:21.446 --> 00:52:23.368
which means that you have a lot of tractor passes.

1104
00:52:24.308 --> 00:52:27.311
And the problem with the super intensive is that you have very small lines.

1105
00:52:27.952 --> 00:52:29.352
And many lines,

1106
00:52:29.632 --> 00:52:31.592
because it's four meters instead of six or seven.

1107
00:52:31.792 --> 00:52:35.792
So you have basically the area affected by the tram lines,

1108
00:52:36.072 --> 00:52:37.032
by the tractor passes,

1109
00:52:37.052 --> 00:52:41.472
is much higher relatively to an intensive or traditional orchard.

1110
00:52:41.792 --> 00:52:45.052
So you have a high concentration of impact from the tractor tires,

1111
00:52:45.592 --> 00:52:46.312
which leads to,

1112
00:52:46.452 --> 00:52:48.012
and especially in high clay soils,

1113
00:52:48.492 --> 00:52:53.652
leads to major issues in terms of what we're seeing with these vertisols.

1114
00:52:54.696 --> 00:52:57.816
is that the vertisols are made of clays that are expansive.

1115
00:52:58.756 --> 00:53:05.076
And so what happens is that the compaction means that it just completely breaks the structure of the soil.

1116
00:53:05.176 --> 00:53:06.836
And when the soil dries in the summer,

1117
00:53:07.296 --> 00:53:08.136
they crack open.

1118
00:53:08.936 --> 00:53:15.316
They have one big crack per tramline that just opens up and you can literally put your hand in and you can go up to this depth,

1119
00:53:15.317 --> 00:53:15.556
you know?

1120
00:53:16.676 --> 00:53:20.116
And that means that the roots that are trying to go into the interline to feed themselves,

1121
00:53:20.196 --> 00:53:21.156
they're snapped open,

1122
00:53:21.176 --> 00:53:22.256
they're literally broken apart,

1123
00:53:22.336 --> 00:53:22.876
broken in half.

1124
00:53:23.788 --> 00:53:24.769
They don't resist the pressure.

1125
00:53:24.909 --> 00:53:30.774
And so the tree is stuck on the tree line and doesn't have the ability to explore the soil profile.

1126
00:53:31.254 --> 00:53:33.576
And so that's one of the examples of resilience.

1127
00:53:33.996 --> 00:53:42.483
You're not resilient to water because your tree roots don't have the capacity to expand and to explore other sources of soil water.

1128
00:53:43.224 --> 00:53:44.284
So when a drought comes,

1129
00:53:44.645 --> 00:53:46.206
you're just dependent on that irrigation.

1130
00:53:47.367 --> 00:53:50.489
And when the irrigation is limited due to...

1131
00:53:50.836 --> 00:54:05.856
you know like happened in france recently because there was droughts and they didn't have the water infrastructure the the hydrological infrastructure to to supply water to all the farmers they reduced significantly their um their water allocations and the farmers were pretty desperate about that and

1132
00:54:05.857 --> 00:54:20.136
so if that that's the resilience thing that we're that's the like the specific link to the resiliency so we want to get the tree roots to expand out and so we're working there's different techniques that we're doing one is of course preventing erosion second is improving that structure.

1133
00:54:20.284 --> 00:54:35.096
the soil structure and another one is spreading fertilizer out more instead of concentrating all the fertilizer on the tree line we spread it out to the interline because the objective is to get the roots to try to work to get there you know get them to

1134
00:54:35.912 --> 00:54:55.107
get out to explore because they have to because they want to find you know nutrition so yeah there's a few of the things we're doing so yeah in those cases then the your cover crops you will really try and work on the soil structure on trying to improve that structure and to repair the damage done by the tractor passes and all of that exactly and what you were saying is that after a

1135
00:54:55.127 --> 00:55:05.175
number of years one two three years when the soil structure is better then you can focus more on the nutrition and nitrogen fixing and things like that and so those those cover crops

1136
00:55:05.556 --> 00:55:23.970
they will evolve through exactly through time through the years depending on what is the biggest concern right now right exactly they will evolve completely apart from cover crops and what what else do you do for soil health so um another big one for soil health is um

1137
00:55:23.971 --> 00:55:34.899
we're working with a a pretty cool technique which is mulching of course everybody knows of mulching but we're doing we're we're using a machine that is able to

1138
00:55:35.032 --> 00:55:51.625
cut the cover crop and it's a flail mower basically so it's able to um to cut down a cover crop and some branches not too many branches otherwise it doesn't process the the the thicker too thick branches but it's able to cut it and

1139
00:55:51.665 --> 00:56:01.233
then it spreads it on the tree line and so what happens is as i was telling you um the the tree roots are very concentrated on the tree line

1140
00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:05.503
because of the concentration of fertilizers there and the compaction etc.

1141
00:56:06.424 --> 00:56:08.465
And so that's where you have the highest amount of tree roots.

1142
00:56:08.466 --> 00:56:11.528
It's also where you can have the highest benefit of applying practices.

1143
00:56:11.768 --> 00:56:21.375
You want to focus your attention there so you can enhance the soil health in that specific area so that you can get benefits in terms of plant health,

1144
00:56:21.756 --> 00:56:26.359
so that you can get then benefits in terms of reduced input use,

1145
00:56:26.360 --> 00:56:29.361
so reduced chemical use and therefore less tractor passes.

1146
00:56:29.522 --> 00:56:31.543
So you start to activate a spiral.

1147
00:56:31.784 --> 00:56:32.665
a virtuous spiral.

1148
00:56:33.846 --> 00:56:40.311
And so what we're doing is that we're cutting the cover crop biomass and we're throwing it onto the treeline.

1149
00:56:41.732 --> 00:56:43.153
And that's creating a mulch layer,

1150
00:56:43.473 --> 00:56:49.298
which is protecting the treeline from the sun and concentrating biomass.

1151
00:56:50.359 --> 00:56:51.720
And as I said before,

1152
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:56.363
it's really important to remember that soil health is pretty much equal to biomass,

1153
00:56:57.404 --> 00:56:58.565
how much biomass you put on it.

1154
00:56:59.532 --> 00:57:00.513
For salt to function,

1155
00:57:00.613 --> 00:57:02.094
it needs to be digesting food.

1156
00:57:02.494 --> 00:57:02.735
You know,

1157
00:57:03.195 --> 00:57:06.438
carbon is the main energy source of life,

1158
00:57:06.498 --> 00:57:07.699
including soil microbiology.

1159
00:57:08.459 --> 00:57:11.682
And so we're basically in a regenerative system,

1160
00:57:11.722 --> 00:57:14.984
we're trying to be really efficient and smart about biomass management.

1161
00:57:15.605 --> 00:57:17.086
Sometimes we import it from outside,

1162
00:57:17.947 --> 00:57:20.148
we're trying to maximize the production from inside,

1163
00:57:20.428 --> 00:57:21.009
within the plot,

1164
00:57:21.649 --> 00:57:24.311
and we're trying to use it and allocate it efficiently.

1165
00:57:25.893 --> 00:57:28.475
So each ton of dry matter biomass counts.

1166
00:57:28.968 --> 00:57:31.210
It needs to be attentively managed.

1167
00:57:31.211 --> 00:57:32.311
So in the early years,

1168
00:57:32.531 --> 00:57:34.933
when the roots are still very concentrated on the tree line,

1169
00:57:34.934 --> 00:57:37.055
and we haven't yet explored the interline,

1170
00:57:37.575 --> 00:57:42.058
we are concentrating that biomass from the cover crop onto the tree line.

1171
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:42.939
Okay,

1172
00:57:43.099 --> 00:57:45.461
so you're growing a cover crop.

1173
00:57:46.468 --> 00:57:48.370
between the rows of trees in the interline,

1174
00:57:48.990 --> 00:57:49.651
that cover crop,

1175
00:57:49.871 --> 00:57:50.591
as it's growing,

1176
00:57:50.651 --> 00:57:52.873
it's capturing carbon from the atmosphere,

1177
00:57:53.093 --> 00:57:55.715
it's getting nutrients from the soil and so on.

1178
00:57:55.936 --> 00:57:59.058
And then you're cutting down that cover crop.

1179
00:57:59.438 --> 00:57:59.558
Yeah.

1180
00:57:59.799 --> 00:58:10.667
You're mulching it and sending that mulch at the base of the trees so that the nutrition present in those plants as it decomposes is available for the plant where it needs it the most.

1181
00:58:11.007 --> 00:58:11.428
Exactly.

1182
00:58:12.088 --> 00:58:13.870
What about the prunings of the trees?

1183
00:58:13.890 --> 00:58:14.610
What do you do with them?

1184
00:58:16.260 --> 00:58:18.560
So that's also a conventional practice.

1185
00:58:19.380 --> 00:58:20.440
We're not doing anything different,

1186
00:58:20.460 --> 00:58:22.480
but they lay out the prunings in the interline.

1187
00:58:24.080 --> 00:58:25.580
So we have the tree line and the interline,

1188
00:58:25.620 --> 00:58:27.020
if we're talking technically.

1189
00:58:27.600 --> 00:58:29.400
So they lay out the prunings in the interline,

1190
00:58:29.540 --> 00:58:32.660
which is the space between the tree rows.

1191
00:58:33.160 --> 00:58:38.760
And they will pass a mulcher or mower that will just break it down and leave it on the spot.

1192
00:58:40.032 --> 00:58:42.034
So what we're doing is that we're saying,

1193
00:58:42.074 --> 00:58:42.274
okay,

1194
00:58:42.534 --> 00:58:44.676
some of that will stay on the spot because to be honest,

1195
00:58:44.696 --> 00:58:45.676
there's so much that,

1196
00:58:46.197 --> 00:58:47.778
especially in these super intensive systems,

1197
00:58:47.779 --> 00:58:50.260
we have a lot of biomass from the pruning.

1198
00:58:50.320 --> 00:58:51.641
So we leave it there,

1199
00:58:51.741 --> 00:58:52.502
but part of it,

1200
00:58:52.762 --> 00:58:54.583
we will apply on the tree line.

1201
00:58:54.683 --> 00:58:56.545
Instead of just concentrating it on the interline,

1202
00:58:56.546 --> 00:58:57.586
we apply it on the tree line.

1203
00:58:57.666 --> 00:58:58.126
Same logic.

1204
00:58:58.607 --> 00:59:00.408
So what we're doing is the manual prunings,

1205
00:59:00.409 --> 00:59:01.529
we leave it on the interline.

1206
00:59:01.989 --> 00:59:04.611
And then the topping from the mechanical topping,

1207
00:59:04.631 --> 00:59:05.672
they're basically hedging it.

1208
00:59:06.012 --> 00:59:08.214
They're basically coming with discs that cut in the top,

1209
00:59:08.694 --> 00:59:09.575
that shape the hedge.

1210
00:59:10.004 --> 00:59:33.803
that stays in the middle and then we pass with our mulcher and that gets thrown onto the tree line okay yeah that's the that's the um 100 of of uh of that stays on the farm goes back in the soil yeah nothing gets exported no no everything stays and we're trying to find ways to bring more biomass in yeah so you can bring more biomass in through composts we're applying compost there as in so one

1211
00:59:33.823 --> 00:59:37.085
other thing that's important to note for the soil health is that you want to

1212
00:59:37.564 --> 00:59:39.264
do things to regenerate the soil health,

1213
00:59:39.344 --> 00:59:41.344
like putting roots in with the cover crop,

1214
00:59:41.345 --> 00:59:41.604
you know,

1215
00:59:41.724 --> 00:59:42.244
plants,

1216
00:59:42.664 --> 00:59:43.364
biomass,

1217
00:59:43.724 --> 00:59:44.504
nutrition as well,

1218
00:59:44.544 --> 00:59:46.404
getting a healthy nutrition profile.

1219
00:59:47.064 --> 00:59:51.344
But you also want to reduce the things that are having a negative effect on the system.

1220
00:59:51.844 --> 00:59:53.944
So at the same time as you're enhancing the system,

1221
00:59:54.304 --> 00:59:59.464
you're also reducing the things that are basically hitting the system on the head with a hammer.

1222
01:00:00.204 --> 01:00:00.984
What are those things?

1223
01:00:01.224 --> 01:00:03.984
Usually it's fertilizers and agrochemicals,

1224
01:00:03.985 --> 01:00:04.424
as we set.

1225
01:00:04.612 --> 01:00:07.014
We've got the example of glyphosate and herbicides,

1226
01:00:07.015 --> 01:00:07.614
which we mentioned,

1227
01:00:07.615 --> 01:00:10.056
which have an effect on soil microbiology and soil chemistry.

1228
01:00:10.637 --> 01:00:11.918
We've also got fertilizers.

1229
01:00:11.978 --> 01:00:14.380
So a lot of excessive use of,

1230
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:19.404
and I mentioned excessive here because using some fertilizer can actually boost soil health.

1231
01:00:20.444 --> 01:00:25.448
But excessive use of fertilizer and especially certain types of fertilizer has shown,

1232
01:00:25.468 --> 01:00:26.349
or we see in studies,

1233
01:00:26.369 --> 01:00:29.632
that it simplifies the soil microbiological community,

1234
01:00:30.953 --> 01:00:34.275
prevents certain microorganisms such as fungi.

1235
01:00:35.997 --> 01:00:37.999
and mycorrhizal from developing,

1236
01:00:38.339 --> 01:00:40.020
which are really important for the soil health.

1237
01:00:40.861 --> 01:00:42.302
And then certain types also have,

1238
01:00:42.422 --> 01:00:42.862
for example,

1239
01:00:42.863 --> 01:00:45.144
there's a lot of use of potassium chloride,

1240
01:00:45.164 --> 01:00:49.447
and the chloride has a strong salinizing effect on the soil and creates some nutritional disbalances.

1241
01:00:49.668 --> 01:00:50.909
So in general,

1242
01:00:51.029 --> 01:00:52.730
we're trying to cut back the effect.

1243
01:00:52.731 --> 01:00:54.031
So how do we cut back the effect?

1244
01:00:54.571 --> 01:00:57.234
We are diversifying our use of fertilizers.

1245
01:00:57.714 --> 01:01:00.516
So instead of just using liquid MPK,

1246
01:01:01.057 --> 01:01:02.057
we are looking at,

1247
01:01:02.177 --> 01:01:02.398
okay,

1248
01:01:02.598 --> 01:01:02.778
well,

1249
01:01:03.278 --> 01:01:04.379
first year we stick with

1250
01:01:04.752 --> 01:01:05.212
Liquid N,

1251
01:01:05.633 --> 01:01:07.354
so we use a calcium nitrate or something.

1252
01:01:07.995 --> 01:01:12.918
And then we will apply the phosphorus and the potassium through a compost.

1253
01:01:14.780 --> 01:01:16.822
Compost typically doesn't provide a lot of nitrogen,

1254
01:01:16.842 --> 01:01:18.923
but it provides quite a lot of potassium and phosphorus.

1255
01:01:19.704 --> 01:01:21.986
Or we're also applying it in an organic form,

1256
01:01:22.186 --> 01:01:24.127
or as a potassium sulfate,

1257
01:01:24.267 --> 01:01:25.468
not a potassium chloride,

1258
01:01:25.769 --> 01:01:27.490
which we're spreading around the orchard.

1259
01:01:28.170 --> 01:01:32.254
So we're diversifying and changing the type of fertilizers that we're using.

1260
01:01:32.528 --> 01:01:33.769
without changing the units,

1261
01:01:33.789 --> 01:01:34.750
we're still applying,

1262
01:01:35.490 --> 01:01:36.231
in this example,

1263
01:01:37.632 --> 01:01:40.114
we can still apply the same amount of potassium and nitrogen,

1264
01:01:40.134 --> 01:01:44.057
but we're just using different sources that are more respectful of the soil microbiology.

1265
01:01:44.437 --> 01:01:49.001
So we're using sources of inputs that are respectful to soil health.

1266
01:01:50.362 --> 01:01:51.103
And of course,

1267
01:01:51.123 --> 01:01:52.684
many times that comes in an organic form.

1268
01:01:53.024 --> 01:01:53.805
It can be manure,

1269
01:01:54.125 --> 01:01:55.386
or it can be composts,

1270
01:01:56.046 --> 01:01:57.367
it can be organic fertilizers.

1271
01:01:57.828 --> 01:01:58.508
So these are

1272
01:01:59.104 --> 01:02:16.277
kind of the some of the other practices that we're doing to reduce the the damage to the soil yeah compost seemed to be a great solution for many many farms right and that's one of the first things that i hear every every interview every farm i visit and i i

1273
01:02:16.278 --> 01:02:28.547
was wondering the other day i never actually asked the question if it's so great to use more compost and less chemical fertilizer um how do they compare economically is it a lot more expensive a lot more

1274
01:02:28.900 --> 01:02:29.481
Yeah,

1275
01:02:29.482 --> 01:02:29.641
okay,

1276
01:02:29.661 --> 01:02:34.224
so that's a really united cost if you want to reduce your chemicals and increase your compost.

1277
01:02:34.705 --> 01:02:34.825
So,

1278
01:02:34.905 --> 01:02:35.125
I mean,

1279
01:02:35.126 --> 01:02:37.167
we're getting into so many nitty-gritty details here,

1280
01:02:38.388 --> 01:02:40.529
and that's very fun for me.

1281
01:02:41.690 --> 01:02:42.431
I think it's amazing,

1282
01:02:42.451 --> 01:02:45.733
but compost provides some nutrition.

1283
01:02:46.504 --> 01:02:49.466
but they also provide a microbiological boost.

1284
01:02:49.727 --> 01:02:50.447
They also provide,

1285
01:02:50.507 --> 01:02:50.948
especially,

1286
01:02:51.168 --> 01:02:52.669
and they enhance the structure of the soil.

1287
01:02:52.809 --> 01:02:55.331
They have quite a significant effect on structure,

1288
01:02:55.351 --> 01:02:57.413
which has effect on water infiltration and et cetera.

1289
01:02:57.433 --> 01:03:00.955
So compost provides nutrition in terms of the macros,

1290
01:03:00.956 --> 01:03:02.116
the minors and the micros,

1291
01:03:02.336 --> 01:03:06.660
and so it enhances biological health and enhances physical health.

1292
01:03:06.680 --> 01:03:07.721
When we talk about soil health,

1293
01:03:07.722 --> 01:03:08.862
we often have chemical,

1294
01:03:09.402 --> 01:03:09.882
physical,

1295
01:03:10.103 --> 01:03:10.743
and biological,

1296
01:03:10.803 --> 01:03:10.983
right?

1297
01:03:11.023 --> 01:03:13.045
Those are three kind of the triangle of soil health.

1298
01:03:13.065 --> 01:03:14.666
So compost tackles all of them.

1299
01:03:14.976 --> 01:03:16.776
But compost costs 35 euros a ton,

1300
01:03:17.616 --> 01:03:17.876
you know,

1301
01:03:18.336 --> 01:03:21.016
and you need to apply quite a significant amount to get those benefits.

1302
01:03:21.836 --> 01:03:22.956
I said 10 tons earlier on,

1303
01:03:22.957 --> 01:03:23.916
they need to apply per hectare,

1304
01:03:23.917 --> 01:03:25.996
but you need to do that over a few years if you really want to.

1305
01:03:28.076 --> 01:03:30.816
It's not a tool that is at the moment economically viable.

1306
01:03:30.896 --> 01:03:32.076
And there's another issue with it.

1307
01:03:32.316 --> 01:03:34.696
It's that there isn't enough compost for everybody.

1308
01:03:35.716 --> 01:03:38.436
And this is where we need to think about scale,

1309
01:03:38.437 --> 01:03:40.036
because it's great on one farm.

1310
01:03:40.636 --> 01:03:42.996
But if we're working on a regional level,

1311
01:03:43.164 --> 01:03:45.644
We need to understand how is the region going to transition?

1312
01:03:46.804 --> 01:03:50.444
How are all the olive farmers going to be able to apply regenerative practices?

1313
01:03:50.984 --> 01:03:52.724
And compost is not scalable enough.

1314
01:03:52.764 --> 01:03:57.864
We are not producing enough compost to meet the needs of all of the olive producers if they all get on board.

1315
01:03:58.904 --> 01:04:00.844
But it can be a tool to kickstart.

1316
01:04:01.224 --> 01:04:01.924
If we say like,

1317
01:04:01.944 --> 01:04:02.124
you know,

1318
01:04:02.125 --> 01:04:04.564
when you plant an orchard or the first year of transition,

1319
01:04:04.864 --> 01:04:05.684
for one or two years,

1320
01:04:05.704 --> 01:04:07.184
you use it to kickstart the system.

1321
01:04:07.484 --> 01:04:09.484
What we say is like we're trying to prime the pump.

1322
01:04:10.364 --> 01:04:11.784
The soil health is really degraded.

1323
01:04:11.785 --> 01:04:12.364
It's struggling.

1324
01:04:12.672 --> 01:04:15.652
So often the soil health needs a boost,

1325
01:04:15.672 --> 01:04:17.452
an initial kind of strong input,

1326
01:04:17.512 --> 01:04:19.712
so just past the next succession level.

1327
01:04:20.932 --> 01:04:22.472
New microbiological populations,

1328
01:04:22.752 --> 01:04:24.292
a new state of soil health,

1329
01:04:24.392 --> 01:04:25.152
of physical health,

1330
01:04:25.452 --> 01:04:25.632
sorry.

1331
01:04:26.252 --> 01:04:30.972
And so what you're trying to do here is you're trying to give it quite a bit of inputs to try and get it to the next level.

1332
01:04:32.052 --> 01:04:34.112
And compost can be a tool in this context,

1333
01:04:34.152 --> 01:04:36.252
because not all farmers will be doing this at the same time.

1334
01:04:36.952 --> 01:04:37.752
Okay,

1335
01:04:37.792 --> 01:04:38.972
so compost is a tool,

1336
01:04:39.432 --> 01:04:40.412
especially in the short term.

1337
01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:41.580
but it is not,

1338
01:04:41.840 --> 01:04:43.780
or on a more infrequent basis,

1339
01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:48.220
but it is not a year-by-year tool that you can use in terms of costs and in terms of availability.

1340
01:04:49.040 --> 01:04:49.580
But that's okay,

1341
01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:51.600
because we can produce biomass in other ways.

1342
01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:53.180
Compost provides,

1343
01:04:53.740 --> 01:04:54.280
you're providing,

1344
01:04:54.520 --> 01:04:56.060
you're applying 10 tons of compost.

1345
01:04:56.640 --> 01:04:56.960
It's got,

1346
01:04:56.961 --> 01:04:57.200
you know,

1347
01:04:57.240 --> 01:04:57.400
like,

1348
01:04:57.401 --> 01:04:57.640
I don't know,

1349
01:04:57.660 --> 01:04:57.800
80%

1350
01:04:58.140 --> 01:04:58.560
humidity.

1351
01:04:58.620 --> 01:05:00.920
So you're applying eight tons of dry matter.

1352
01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:01.560
And out of that,

1353
01:05:02.120 --> 01:05:03.460
the organic content is maybe,

1354
01:05:03.500 --> 01:05:03.740
you know,

1355
01:05:04.280 --> 01:05:04.540
60%.

1356
01:05:04.980 --> 01:05:06.140
So let's say you're applying six tons.

1357
01:05:06.480 --> 01:05:09.440
We can produce with a cover crop.

1358
01:05:09.908 --> 01:05:13.971
we can produce between three and six tons of dry matter per hectare.

1359
01:05:16.033 --> 01:05:18.555
Thank you so much for listening this far into the conversation.

1360
01:05:19.095 --> 01:05:20.817
I really hope that you're enjoying it,

1361
01:05:20.937 --> 01:05:22.658
that you're learning new things,

1362
01:05:22.858 --> 01:05:26.681
and that this podcast is bringing value into your life.

1363
01:05:27.302 --> 01:05:28.202
If that's the case,

1364
01:05:28.523 --> 01:05:29.503
I would be super,

1365
01:05:29.764 --> 01:05:33.486
super grateful if you could help me and support me in my work.

1366
01:05:33.907 --> 01:05:36.309
And you can actually do that in just three seconds.

1367
01:05:36.629 --> 01:05:39.331
So wherever you're listening to this right now.

1368
01:05:39.740 --> 01:05:59.860
whether it's spotify apple podcast or another platform just click on the deep seed page and click on the follow or subscribe button you'll be surprised to find out how much it actually helps me reaching more people every week with these super important conversation and topics and helping the whole regenerative movement grow so

1369
01:05:59.980 --> 01:06:04.220
thank you so much in advance very grateful for that and well let's get back to the conversation

1370
01:06:06.088 --> 01:06:09.691
If we're trying to find solutions and to build solutions for a large farm,

1371
01:06:10.672 --> 01:06:11.552
we need to be precise.

1372
01:06:11.913 --> 01:06:14.555
We need to be precise with the technique that we're using,

1373
01:06:14.935 --> 01:06:15.816
how much it costs,

1374
01:06:15.876 --> 01:06:17.317
the benefits that we're expecting.

1375
01:06:18.077 --> 01:06:19.739
And so in the Ahamboy Nova project,

1376
01:06:19.740 --> 01:06:27.305
what we're really focusing on is developing the data in order to de-risk the transition for the farms.

1377
01:06:28.105 --> 01:06:31.728
So we want to come to the farms and be very clear about the costs and the benefits.

1378
01:06:32.269 --> 01:06:33.950
It's basically a cost-benefit analysis.

1379
01:06:35.032 --> 01:06:36.693
When we're looking at a regenerative transition,

1380
01:06:36.733 --> 01:06:39.315
this is really important because usually,

1381
01:06:39.896 --> 01:06:40.396
typically,

1382
01:06:40.616 --> 01:06:45.240
and that will depend really on where we're starting with the farmer or where the farmer is at,

1383
01:06:45.340 --> 01:06:53.066
but typically the initial years represent a bit of a higher cost for the farmer who is in a regenerative transition.

1384
01:06:54.007 --> 01:06:55.928
Where does that extra cost come from?

1385
01:06:56.189 --> 01:06:57.490
You mentioned compost,

1386
01:06:57.530 --> 01:06:57.910
I guess,

1387
01:06:58.150 --> 01:06:59.131
seeds for cover crops.

1388
01:06:59.211 --> 01:06:59.571
What else?

1389
01:06:59.932 --> 01:07:00.832
Seed for cover crops,

1390
01:07:00.912 --> 01:07:01.473
compost,

1391
01:07:01.493 --> 01:07:02.373
potentially machine,

1392
01:07:02.374 --> 01:07:03.454
new machine they need to buy.

1393
01:07:03.455 --> 01:07:04.495
We talked about mulching.

1394
01:07:04.844 --> 01:07:07.406
So there may be an acquisition of a machine to be able to mulch.

1395
01:07:08.927 --> 01:07:10.989
There may also be alternative inputs,

1396
01:07:11.109 --> 01:07:15.152
such as alternative fertilizers or alternative pesticides.

1397
01:07:16.773 --> 01:07:18.535
So biological alternatives,

1398
01:07:18.575 --> 01:07:19.796
these tend to cost a bit more.

1399
01:07:20.656 --> 01:07:25.840
But they are inputs that are less damaging to the agroecosystem,

1400
01:07:26.301 --> 01:07:26.881
to the soil.

1401
01:07:27.642 --> 01:07:31.865
So we're using alternative inputs with the objective of reducing the effects,

1402
01:07:32.045 --> 01:07:34.067
the negative effects on soil health,

1403
01:07:34.068 --> 01:07:34.607
for example.

1404
01:07:35.044 --> 01:07:37.826
So it's an investment because they cost a bit more at the start,

1405
01:07:38.367 --> 01:07:47.174
but the objective is to enhance soil health so that then the soil is providing more agronomic services to the crop so that we don't need so many inputs.

1406
01:07:48.104 --> 01:07:48.985
So that's the objective.

1407
01:07:49.986 --> 01:07:52.067
You're using different kinds of inputs at the start,

1408
01:07:52.628 --> 01:07:55.150
you're investing in your soil through the compost,

1409
01:07:55.190 --> 01:07:55.330
etc.

1410
01:07:56.030 --> 01:08:00.574
And then the objective is to have the soil kind of work more independently,

1411
01:08:00.894 --> 01:08:02.275
a soil that's more autonomous.

1412
01:08:02.415 --> 01:08:02.616
Okay,

1413
01:08:02.996 --> 01:08:04.177
so you can reduce your cost.

1414
01:08:04.477 --> 01:08:06.699
Then you can reduce your input use.

1415
01:08:07.079 --> 01:08:07.479
Exactly.

1416
01:08:07.499 --> 01:08:12.884
Everything kind of starts reducing and then your profits can start going back up.

1417
01:08:13.604 --> 01:08:13.864
Exactly,

1418
01:08:14.385 --> 01:08:14.865
that's the idea.

1419
01:08:14.905 --> 01:08:16.166
And that's what we call the J-curve.

1420
01:08:16.366 --> 01:08:16.486
Yeah.

1421
01:08:16.848 --> 01:08:17.048
Okay,

1422
01:08:17.108 --> 01:08:20.431
so the J curve is basically the beginning,

1423
01:08:20.451 --> 01:08:24.194
we have a slight reduction in profit due to the higher costs.

1424
01:08:24.494 --> 01:08:25.475
But then in the future,

1425
01:08:25.755 --> 01:08:26.636
we're expecting,

1426
01:08:27.216 --> 01:08:29.658
and this is what a lot of regenerative farmers have demonstrated,

1427
01:08:30.058 --> 01:08:36.964
you are looking and you should get higher profitability because your cost of production have reduced.

1428
01:08:37.704 --> 01:08:38.625
The thing is,

1429
01:08:38.765 --> 01:08:40.246
what we're trying to do here is,

1430
01:08:40.507 --> 01:08:41.707
this is very good theoretically,

1431
01:08:42.288 --> 01:08:45.390
but farmers believe what they see to start off with.

1432
01:08:45.811 --> 01:08:46.211
And also,

1433
01:08:47.312 --> 01:08:52.116
farmers need data to be able to be confident in activating this transition.

1434
01:08:52.697 --> 01:08:53.357
And not just this,

1435
01:08:53.417 --> 01:08:57.420
we also need data to know which techniques are the most relevant,

1436
01:08:58.181 --> 01:09:02.344
are the ones we should focus on as a priority in the early years,

1437
01:09:03.125 --> 01:09:04.706
how we implement these techniques.

1438
01:09:05.046 --> 01:09:07.788
There's so many ways to plant a cover crop with so many different...

1439
01:09:08.609 --> 01:09:08.989
Firstly,

1440
01:09:08.990 --> 01:09:11.371
there's so many mistakes that you can make in planting a cover crop.

1441
01:09:12.172 --> 01:09:15.995
But then there's also so many ways to go about it with different objectives.

1442
01:09:16.352 --> 01:09:22.697
So it's basically about being very precise so that we can control this J-curve.

1443
01:09:22.877 --> 01:09:23.818
We can tell the farmer,

1444
01:09:24.198 --> 01:09:29.382
this is how much cost we're expecting and these are the benefits that we're expecting and by when we're expecting them.

1445
01:09:29.383 --> 01:09:29.602
Okay,

1446
01:09:29.702 --> 01:09:31.564
and you have very strong data to back it up.

1447
01:09:31.804 --> 01:09:33.545
It's not just one or two examples.

1448
01:09:33.546 --> 01:09:37.368
You have strong data to know that what you're saying is right,

1449
01:09:37.449 --> 01:09:37.789
basically.

1450
01:09:38.189 --> 01:09:39.150
As strong as possible.

1451
01:09:39.170 --> 01:09:43.413
As strong as funding will provide because of course these are

1452
01:09:43.788 --> 01:09:45.249
And when you're working with universities,

1453
01:09:45.289 --> 01:09:50.233
these are quite big projects that have quite a big financial investment.

1454
01:09:50.293 --> 01:09:51.014
So right now,

1455
01:09:51.034 --> 01:09:52.195
this project is funded by the

1456
01:09:53.235 --> 01:09:54.036
Avina Stiftung.

1457
01:09:54.096 --> 01:10:04.624
It's the Avina Foundation from Switzerland that's supporting a variety of regenerative and alternative food solutions in Europe.

1458
01:10:05.145 --> 01:10:06.526
And yeah,

1459
01:10:06.626 --> 01:10:12.150
so it's basically a project that is quite large.

1460
01:10:14.453 --> 01:10:19.597
But this is the type of projects that's necessary to produce that detail,

1461
01:10:20.418 --> 01:10:23.200
or that quality of data that we can then present to the pharmacy.

1462
01:10:23.440 --> 01:10:24.801
And we don't have that data yet,

1463
01:10:25.562 --> 01:10:27.984
because the project started two years ago.

1464
01:10:28.544 --> 01:10:33.628
The first year is an evaluation year and baselining year.

1465
01:10:33.708 --> 01:10:34.269
The second year,

1466
01:10:34.389 --> 01:10:35.490
first practices come in.

1467
01:10:36.210 --> 01:10:38.592
And now we're going to be entering the third year.

1468
01:10:38.632 --> 01:10:40.794
So after two years of practices,

1469
01:10:40.854 --> 01:10:41.875
you start to have data.

1470
01:10:42.260 --> 01:10:42.440
Okay.

1471
01:10:42.620 --> 01:10:42.741
Okay.

1472
01:10:44.122 --> 01:10:45.703
So it's going to come in little by little,

1473
01:10:45.883 --> 01:10:46.584
but yeah,

1474
01:10:46.624 --> 01:10:48.085
we're testing all these practices.

1475
01:10:48.565 --> 01:10:51.387
We've got different modalities going on on three different farms,

1476
01:10:51.507 --> 01:10:52.488
three different contexts,

1477
01:10:52.508 --> 01:10:53.409
different soil types.

1478
01:10:53.429 --> 01:10:56.031
So it's quite complete from a data perspective.

1479
01:10:56.611 --> 01:10:56.832
Okay.

1480
01:10:57.112 --> 01:10:57.232
Yeah.

1481
01:10:57.312 --> 01:10:57.872
Very interesting.

1482
01:10:58.753 --> 01:11:05.218
There was one of the questions I wanted to ask you is about how do you convince farmers to follow you on this regenerative journey,

1483
01:11:05.518 --> 01:11:08.781
even though they know it's going to be an increased risk and increased cost in the first years?

1484
01:11:10.021 --> 01:11:23.371
So I guess they already answered that question by coming with them with strong data and experience to know and to be confident that you can present to them a strategy that will in the long term be beneficial for them.

1485
01:11:24.072 --> 01:11:28.175
There is a nuance here linked to this J-curve.

1486
01:11:29.156 --> 01:11:35.541
And we talked about the best practices at the start.

1487
01:11:36.381 --> 01:11:37.482
on where the farmer starts.

1488
01:11:38.332 --> 01:11:41.615
If the farmer is overusing fertilizers,

1489
01:11:43.236 --> 01:11:45.798
we can in the first year by just having,

1490
01:11:45.978 --> 01:11:46.238
let's say,

1491
01:11:46.358 --> 01:11:47.779
good agronomical practices,

1492
01:11:47.900 --> 01:11:49.561
by coming in with best practices,

1493
01:11:49.581 --> 01:11:53.364
we can quite significantly reduce the farmer's operational expenses.

1494
01:11:55.594 --> 01:11:56.515
If that's the case,

1495
01:11:56.795 --> 01:12:01.319
we can free up a budget to invest in our in the regenerative agriculture.

1496
01:12:01.320 --> 01:12:03.540
So the J curve is not always very pronounced.

1497
01:12:03.720 --> 01:12:03.861
Yeah.

1498
01:12:04.301 --> 01:12:04.481
Okay,

1499
01:12:04.641 --> 01:12:07.003
you're reducing the intensity of it.

1500
01:12:07.844 --> 01:12:10.065
With one of our farmers here that we're working with,

1501
01:12:10.446 --> 01:12:13.608
the first year we reduced his fertilizer use by 20%.

1502
01:12:14.068 --> 01:12:17.551
The second year we reduced it by another 25%.

1503
01:12:17.791 --> 01:12:19.393
So we're at like 40 to 45%

1504
01:12:19.613 --> 01:12:20.814
reduction fertilizer use.

1505
01:12:21.554 --> 01:12:23.996
We've kicked out about one or two treatments as well.

1506
01:12:24.838 --> 01:12:27.180
So that he would otherwise have applied,

1507
01:12:27.181 --> 01:12:29.302
but was not based on,

1508
01:12:29.422 --> 01:12:30.022
we came in,

1509
01:12:30.302 --> 01:12:31.283
we analyzed,

1510
01:12:31.523 --> 01:12:33.745
we started monitoring and tracking,

1511
01:12:33.765 --> 01:12:36.027
we started to implement best practices.

1512
01:12:36.047 --> 01:12:36.747
So for example,

1513
01:12:36.787 --> 01:12:37.768
with insect treatments,

1514
01:12:37.769 --> 01:12:40.150
you have to be very precise at the timing of application.

1515
01:12:40.630 --> 01:12:44.994
So there's many times farmers are applying when it's not necessary or it doesn't have an effect.

1516
01:12:45.714 --> 01:12:50.238
So being precise in this way enables to reduce operational expenses.

1517
01:12:50.538 --> 01:12:52.280
And then you can reinvest that.

1518
01:12:52.598 --> 01:13:08.370
into organic into regenerative practices okay and what's also interesting important to know is it's the speed at which you want to transition so if you want to have an regenerative transition and meet your kpis in three years you're gonna have to be investing a lot more if

1519
01:13:08.371 --> 01:13:20.500
you're expecting to have this to meet these objectives over five years or seven years or ten years you're gonna be going through a much smoother j curve okay because you're gonna be optimizing the system little by little

1520
01:13:20.818 --> 01:13:40.333
you're going to go through kind of a slower approach okay where you're optimizing little by little so the process is more it's it takes more time but it's a process that is um that is less expensive in the early years okay yeah yeah i think there's um there's a really important element of nuance that we need to bring to this j curve conversation because when

1521
01:13:40.334 --> 01:13:50.121
we talk about the j curve we are comparing a conventional farming system and the profits expected over time of that farming system to...

1522
01:13:50.818 --> 01:13:54.098
what that same system would be like if we transition it to regenerative.

1523
01:13:54.158 --> 01:14:03.738
So you would have this dip in the first years because of the investment you have to make in regenerative and because it takes time for the results to really boost your profits again,

1524
01:14:03.878 --> 01:14:04.098
right?

1525
01:14:04.518 --> 01:14:04.638
Yeah.

1526
01:14:05.058 --> 01:14:12.278
But that's assuming that the profit margins of the conventional farmer will keep going in a straight line uninterrupted.

1527
01:14:12.878 --> 01:14:19.678
And I think it's completely forgetting the fact that we're heading into a very unstable global environment with...

1528
01:14:20.226 --> 01:14:22.446
a lot of shocks ahead like climate shocks,

1529
01:14:23.346 --> 01:14:24.606
biodiversity collapse,

1530
01:14:25.666 --> 01:14:26.686
geopolitical shocks,

1531
01:14:26.866 --> 01:14:28.406
economic crisis,

1532
01:14:28.506 --> 01:14:29.126
things like that,

1533
01:14:29.586 --> 01:14:33.346
that will massively dent that growth line,

1534
01:14:33.386 --> 01:14:38.746
that profit line for the conventional farmer and for the regenerative farmer as well,

1535
01:14:38.826 --> 01:14:40.226
but much less so.

1536
01:14:40.506 --> 01:14:44.466
And so by transitioning to regenerative agriculture,

1537
01:14:44.666 --> 01:14:44.866
yes,

1538
01:14:44.926 --> 01:14:45.946
there is a cost and yes,

1539
01:14:45.986 --> 01:14:48.226
you are creating this small dip j curve

1540
01:14:48.754 --> 01:14:50.075
and your profits in the first years,

1541
01:14:50.676 --> 01:14:53.298
but by making your farm a lot more resilient,

1542
01:14:53.378 --> 01:14:54.358
improving soil health,

1543
01:14:54.499 --> 01:14:55.219
water retention,

1544
01:14:55.259 --> 01:14:56.460
biodiversity and all of that,

1545
01:14:57.681 --> 01:15:02.105
you're protecting yourself against future shocks to some extent,

1546
01:15:02.185 --> 01:15:02.425
right?

1547
01:15:03.305 --> 01:15:04.146
That's the objective,

1548
01:15:04.206 --> 01:15:04.466
yes.

1549
01:15:04.646 --> 01:15:10.591
And it's very clear that a healthy soil has a big impact in times of drought.

1550
01:15:11.412 --> 01:15:12.172
So you really,

1551
01:15:12.533 --> 01:15:14.935
where the healthy soil really expresses itself,

1552
01:15:15.435 --> 01:15:16.916
where you really note the difference

1553
01:15:17.250 --> 01:15:34.664
it's in times of stress yeah yeah so this is kind of what we're trying to we're trying to pitch regenerative agriculture going back to the question you said earlier on about how do you convince farmers we're pitching regenerative agriculture as a as a medium and long-term strategic

1554
01:15:34.704 --> 01:15:43.030
decision a business strategy decision not just as something we need to do we don't pitch it to farmers as something that they need to do for ecological reasons

1555
01:15:43.466 --> 01:15:46.008
Because many farmers care about the ecological reasons.

1556
01:15:46.328 --> 01:15:47.729
They would like to see them happen.

1557
01:15:48.110 --> 01:15:50.612
But if they don't have their basic economic needs met,

1558
01:15:51.993 --> 01:15:53.214
they're not going to be focusing on that.

1559
01:15:54.395 --> 01:15:54.855
It's normal,

1560
01:15:54.856 --> 01:15:55.075
you know,

1561
01:15:55.095 --> 01:15:57.877
you're going to care about yourself and about how you're running,

1562
01:15:57.957 --> 01:15:59.018
and then you're going to be looking at...

1563
01:15:59.378 --> 01:16:02.161
So you don't come to them with this discourse.

1564
01:16:02.261 --> 01:16:08.706
But what's interesting is that the ecological benefits are at the same time producing benefits on their farm.

1565
01:16:09.867 --> 01:16:10.587
An improved,

1566
01:16:10.887 --> 01:16:12.309
let's talk about biodiversity.

1567
01:16:12.738 --> 01:16:16.741
an improved functional biodiversity is great for an ecosystem perspective.

1568
01:16:17.442 --> 01:16:22.506
But it's especially great for the farmer's natural pest control.

1569
01:16:23.446 --> 01:16:23.667
Okay,

1570
01:16:23.747 --> 01:16:31.873
so a lot of the biodiversity that you see when you have a good and beautifully flowering cover crop are predator insects.

1571
01:16:32.093 --> 01:16:34.415
These predator insects can many times,

1572
01:16:34.455 --> 01:16:35.216
their larvae,

1573
01:16:35.336 --> 01:16:37.618
let's look at for example the syrphid larvae,

1574
01:16:37.898 --> 01:16:39.539
can eat up to 50 aphids per day.

1575
01:16:40.306 --> 01:16:56.919
some and the studies that show up to 80 aphids per day i mean these are very you know effective tools to manage pests so if you can enhance this on the farm it's great for you know all the all the ecological kpis and sustainability objectives and you know development

1576
01:16:56.979 --> 01:17:07.007
goals etc but it's especially good for the farmer not having to put one more treatment out there well it's great when the two can align right and most many times it does in most cases it does

1577
01:17:08.263 --> 01:17:29.063
so that that's the opportunity there so that's we that you can depending on who you talk to you you adapt your your your your kind of yeah your speech yeah on most of the farms i visited and the farmers i've spoken to on the podcast one of the key tools that they use for regenerating ecosystems is integrating

1578
01:17:29.183 --> 01:17:35.023
animals into the system is that something that you've been testing and experimenting with

1579
01:17:36.091 --> 01:17:38.593
So you like to ask the hard questions.

1580
01:17:41.295 --> 01:17:50.342
Animal integration in intensive and super intensive systems can be quite complex for a variety of reasons.

1581
01:17:50.343 --> 01:17:57.728
I'll give you an example of one of our Ahabu Innova trial areas which involves an organic almond orchard.

1582
01:17:59.489 --> 01:18:01.711
The farmer there has lots of animals,

1583
01:18:02.091 --> 01:18:03.993
so it's a 700 hectare farm.

1584
01:18:04.759 --> 01:18:06.961
and they have lots of sheep available.

1585
01:18:07.781 --> 01:18:14.527
So just the fact that the farmer is managing the sheep means that we can quite easily integrate them into the orchard.

1586
01:18:15.548 --> 01:18:15.968
The thing is,

1587
01:18:15.969 --> 01:18:21.692
we have to wait for the orchard to be three or four years old because sheep love to eat tree leaves.

1588
01:18:22.973 --> 01:18:26.196
And the issue with olives is that sheep,

1589
01:18:26.476 --> 01:18:27.137
for example,

1590
01:18:27.297 --> 01:18:32.341
which are kind of the most adapted due to their size and to put into orchards,

1591
01:18:32.641 --> 01:18:33.882
they love to eat bark.

1592
01:18:34.403 --> 01:18:38.206
olive bark and when they eat olive bark they can quickly girdle a tree and kill it.

1593
01:18:39.367 --> 01:18:42.990
So you have to wait a few years before you put them in and then you have to be,

1594
01:18:43.250 --> 01:18:44.551
this is very context specific,

1595
01:18:44.552 --> 01:18:45.512
will depend on breed,

1596
01:18:45.632 --> 01:18:55.640
will depend on the nutrition of the sheep as well because they often compensate or find nutrition that they're not getting in the grass in the bark of the trees.

1597
01:18:56.080 --> 01:18:59.202
So there's a lot of factors there that you have to understand we have to,

1598
01:18:59.863 --> 01:19:00.203
let's say,

1599
01:19:01.644 --> 01:19:02.605
be careful of.

1600
01:19:04.235 --> 01:19:05.935
But in super intensive systems,

1601
01:19:07.015 --> 01:19:12.055
the other challenge is that the rows are very small and the sheep need to,

1602
01:19:12.215 --> 01:19:13.395
when they're moving around,

1603
01:19:13.595 --> 01:19:14.975
they can create quite a bit of damage.

1604
01:19:15.735 --> 01:19:17.695
And they can especially start to eat the lower,

1605
01:19:17.915 --> 01:19:18.995
the trees are quite small,

1606
01:19:19.075 --> 01:19:19.655
quite tight,

1607
01:19:20.055 --> 01:19:21.495
so the lower branches,

1608
01:19:21.515 --> 01:19:22.615
which are productive branches,

1609
01:19:22.635 --> 01:19:23.655
are available to the sheep.

1610
01:19:24.095 --> 01:19:27.695
So if they start to be browsing on the lower branches,

1611
01:19:27.715 --> 01:19:30.415
you may reduce quite significantly your canopy area.

1612
01:19:30.903 --> 01:19:49.097
so it's an annual production so there are some challenges there it doesn't mean it's not impossible definitely it's easier to integrate animals in intensive densities than super intensive densities yeah so that's one benefit to the intensive densities yeah you can produce more cover crop as well in um

1613
01:19:49.317 --> 01:19:57.324
in super intensive uh sorry in intensive densities yeah i guess you have more space you have more light space more interline area more lights exactly so

1614
01:19:58.087 --> 01:19:59.328
It does seem that,

1615
01:19:59.869 --> 01:20:02.250
going back to the question that you said earlier on,

1616
01:20:02.291 --> 01:20:03.752
that we can get better results,

1617
01:20:04.692 --> 01:20:06.854
at least from a regenerative perspective,

1618
01:20:06.855 --> 01:20:10.837
we could go faster if we were in an intensive density.

1619
01:20:11.618 --> 01:20:13.299
But then there's the economic constraint,

1620
01:20:13.519 --> 01:20:13.739
right?

1621
01:20:13.920 --> 01:20:17.783
Of the difference in efficiencies that needs to be taken into account.

1622
01:20:18.383 --> 01:20:19.164
What about chickens?

1623
01:20:20.024 --> 01:20:20.565
In my mind,

1624
01:20:20.585 --> 01:20:24.248
I imagine that you could have these chicken tractors kind of things that you move every day,

1625
01:20:24.728 --> 01:20:25.529
That could be...

1626
01:20:25.883 --> 01:20:27.344
that could fit between your rows.

1627
01:20:27.544 --> 01:20:31.467
Is that something anyone has ever tried in one of these super dense,

1628
01:20:31.488 --> 01:20:32.508
super intensive systems?

1629
01:20:32.909 --> 01:20:33.049
Yeah,

1630
01:20:33.069 --> 01:20:33.389
you need,

1631
01:20:33.769 --> 01:20:35.270
at a thousand hectare scale,

1632
01:20:35.271 --> 01:20:38.613
you need quite a lot of chickens to be able to manage the area.

1633
01:20:40.094 --> 01:20:40.835
But that adds,

1634
01:20:40.955 --> 01:20:45.118
you also add a chicken production or eggs or chicken meat production to your system.

1635
01:20:45.138 --> 01:20:46.559
So you add also value.

1636
01:20:47.400 --> 01:20:48.000
It's possible.

1637
01:20:48.281 --> 01:20:48.881
A lot of people,

1638
01:20:48.961 --> 01:20:49.622
what they're doing,

1639
01:20:50.542 --> 01:20:52.324
this is something that happens a lot in France,

1640
01:20:52.724 --> 01:20:53.805
where you have basically,

1641
01:20:54.835 --> 01:20:59.539
a chicken producer that enters a collaboration with a grain producer,

1642
01:20:59.559 --> 01:21:02.902
for example.

1643
01:21:05.504 --> 01:21:08.987
It's difficult for a tree crop farmer to manage a lot of complexity.

1644
01:21:09.387 --> 01:21:12.850
This is one of the issues with the diversification of the farms,

1645
01:21:12.950 --> 01:21:14.191
especially at that scale.

1646
01:21:14.411 --> 01:21:17.113
There's something to be said about economies of scale.

1647
01:21:17.299 --> 01:21:44.760
you know what i mean and and the knowledge required to manage these systems well so then you need to manage the trees and you need to manage the chickens on a large scale so there's this this can be challenging for the farmers so this partnerships can overcome that issue where you get a professional chicken grower and a professional tree crop grower and then they integrate and they and they collaborate together this is not something that's very common you don't see it a lot yeah you know yeah but uh i think that there's quite a lot of potential there

1648
01:21:45.499 --> 01:21:47.021
for one to use the land of the other,

1649
01:21:47.121 --> 01:21:47.621
the other could,

1650
01:21:48.061 --> 01:21:48.302
you know,

1651
01:21:48.362 --> 01:21:51.804
the chicken farmer could be paying a certain rent per hectare to the olive grower,

1652
01:21:51.824 --> 01:21:53.125
which increases his revenue,

1653
01:21:53.526 --> 01:21:55.687
whilst providing soil benefits,

1654
01:21:55.787 --> 01:21:59.410
because obviously the animals provide quite significant benefits to the soil,

1655
01:21:59.411 --> 01:22:00.771
and that's been demonstrated.

1656
01:22:02.192 --> 01:22:08.818
So it's more about finding the logistical and socio-economical systems to make that work.

1657
01:22:10.640 --> 01:22:12.001
But there's something else to be said.

1658
01:22:12.101 --> 01:22:12.782
In almonds,

1659
01:22:12.962 --> 01:22:16.004
integrating animals in almond orchards can be challenging.

1660
01:22:16.005 --> 01:22:19.227
And there's some regulations due to floor harvesting as well.

1661
01:22:19.307 --> 01:22:22.429
There's many growers that harvest their almonds on the floor.

1662
01:22:23.250 --> 01:22:27.253
And if you do floor harvesting mixed with chicken manure,

1663
01:22:27.773 --> 01:22:28.013
you know,

1664
01:22:28.134 --> 01:22:29.515
or mixed with sheep manure as well,

1665
01:22:30.255 --> 01:22:31.096
that can be an issue.

1666
01:22:31.536 --> 01:22:34.519
So there are some regulations around timing and potentially...

1667
01:22:35.091 --> 01:22:36.372
certain certifications,

1668
01:22:37.413 --> 01:22:44.599
like global certifications that the farmers need to subscribe to or need to follow in order to sell their products on commodity markets may not allow that.

1669
01:22:45.279 --> 01:22:45.479
Okay,

1670
01:22:45.639 --> 01:22:46.280
fair point.

1671
01:22:46.400 --> 01:22:49.843
But you're not harvesting on the floor with these super dense systems,

1672
01:22:49.923 --> 01:22:50.063
right?

1673
01:22:50.064 --> 01:22:50.883
You said that you're actually...

1674
01:22:50.884 --> 01:22:51.204
Exactly.

1675
01:22:51.284 --> 01:22:51.904
In this case,

1676
01:22:51.964 --> 01:22:52.084
no.

1677
01:22:52.245 --> 01:22:52.725
In this case,

1678
01:22:52.726 --> 01:22:54.546
the main challenge is the logistical,

1679
01:22:54.626 --> 01:22:55.707
how tight everything is.

1680
01:22:56.408 --> 01:22:58.189
We are looking to integrate sheep there.

1681
01:22:59.410 --> 01:23:02.793
We just have to be extra careful about the damage and how to manage it.

1682
01:23:03.530 --> 01:23:03.770
You know,

1683
01:23:03.771 --> 01:23:06.873
there's a lot of details like how fast they go through that area,

1684
01:23:07.053 --> 01:23:08.154
how much time do they stay.

1685
01:23:08.494 --> 01:23:09.355
If they stay longer,

1686
01:23:09.635 --> 01:23:12.197
they can get more bored and start to browse more.

1687
01:23:13.378 --> 01:23:15.560
There's a lot of details that need to be covered.

1688
01:23:15.660 --> 01:23:18.442
But that's not also where we're focusing at the initial years.

1689
01:23:18.462 --> 01:23:19.543
A regenerative transition,

1690
01:23:19.703 --> 01:23:21.184
you need to take it slow at the start.

1691
01:23:21.945 --> 01:23:24.186
It's already adding quite a lot of layer of complexity.

1692
01:23:25.047 --> 01:23:28.089
It's risky to over-complexify for the farmer.

1693
01:23:28.410 --> 01:23:31.252
So we don't come in the first year or first two years telling,

1694
01:23:31.530 --> 01:23:55.189
let's put chickens inside or let's put sheep inside you know that's something that comes little by little first we'll optimize the system and then the second year we'll start to put the cover crops in and start to change a few parameters of fertilization and fight sanitary treatments and then you see what i mean it's like a gradual we gradually onboard new practices and we create a kind of a gradual change in the system yeah okay it

1695
01:23:55.190 --> 01:23:59.172
does seem like the super intensive system mean that you have to do a lot of compromises.

1696
01:23:59.252 --> 01:23:59.912
And there's a lot of...

1697
01:24:00.502 --> 01:24:05.546
options that are available for regenerative agriculture are a bit difficult to apply,

1698
01:24:05.666 --> 01:24:06.507
because as you said,

1699
01:24:06.567 --> 01:24:10.490
with this amount of density and productivity,

1700
01:24:11.931 --> 01:24:13.652
you kind of have this economy of scale,

1701
01:24:13.672 --> 01:24:17.175
you need to simplify your system a little bit and it's harder to bring in diversity,

1702
01:24:17.295 --> 01:24:18.576
diversity of plants,

1703
01:24:20.037 --> 01:24:20.838
adding animals,

1704
01:24:21.839 --> 01:24:23.880
you have to make a little bit of a compromise there.

1705
01:24:25.261 --> 01:24:25.382
Yeah,

1706
01:24:25.562 --> 01:24:26.062
I think that...

1707
01:24:27.586 --> 01:24:27.847
I think,

1708
01:24:28.087 --> 01:24:29.027
as I said earlier on,

1709
01:24:29.028 --> 01:24:31.189
I think any agricultural system is a compromise.

1710
01:24:31.269 --> 01:24:34.532
I think also each agricultural system will have their own compromises.

1711
01:24:37.294 --> 01:24:39.496
So just comparing almonds with olives,

1712
01:24:39.696 --> 01:24:41.757
almonds with the floor harvesting of almonds,

1713
01:24:41.758 --> 01:24:42.778
they may have a lot more room,

1714
01:24:43.078 --> 01:24:44.019
a lot more space.

1715
01:24:44.600 --> 01:24:46.901
They're on a wider spacing,

1716
01:24:47.222 --> 01:24:51.345
but the floor harvesting just really limits the type of species you can use with a cover crop,

1717
01:24:51.385 --> 01:24:51.945
for example.

1718
01:24:52.727 --> 01:24:54.788
You need species that very quickly decompose,

1719
01:24:54.828 --> 01:24:59.232
otherwise there's a lot of residue left on the floor and it messes up the floor harvesting.

1720
01:24:59.892 --> 01:25:00.833
Compared to olives,

1721
01:25:01.013 --> 01:25:04.796
where you can play much more with the species that you can use,

1722
01:25:05.356 --> 01:25:06.117
super intensive olives.

1723
01:25:06.157 --> 01:25:07.798
You can use many more species,

1724
01:25:08.779 --> 01:25:10.520
you can manage it in a,

1725
01:25:11.321 --> 01:25:13.743
you can let them get older and dry up more.

1726
01:25:13.763 --> 01:25:15.805
You can manage your biomass in a very different way.

1727
01:25:15.905 --> 01:25:19.848
So each system will have their own constraints and their own benefits.

1728
01:25:20.406 --> 01:25:28.926
And I think what's important for us as well is our positioning with our clients and in our projects is not to tell them one system is better than the other.

1729
01:25:31.126 --> 01:25:35.146
We don't have an influence on do farmers plan super intensive or not.

1730
01:25:35.406 --> 01:25:35.546
Yeah,

1731
01:25:35.566 --> 01:25:35.686
no,

1732
01:25:35.687 --> 01:25:35.886
I get it.

1733
01:25:35.887 --> 01:25:40.046
Farmers come to us with a super intensive system and they're telling us how can we do this better?

1734
01:25:40.206 --> 01:25:42.426
Or we're telling them many times you can do this better.

1735
01:25:44.086 --> 01:25:46.286
Let's work together to optimize the system.

1736
01:25:46.346 --> 01:25:48.566
So that's where we come in.

1737
01:25:48.966 --> 01:25:49.466
Fair enough.

1738
01:25:49.467 --> 01:25:49.626
Yeah.

1739
01:25:49.746 --> 01:25:49.866
Yeah.

1740
01:25:51.095 --> 01:26:05.486
um something i wanted to discuss also is irrigation um um you said that these crops they require irrigations in these intensive systems right super intensive systems where does that water come from typically depends

1741
01:26:05.487 --> 01:26:17.155
on the farm it can come from dams by basically overflow capture or it can come from boreholes which are you know 100 150 meter deep boreholes where they tap into...

1742
01:26:17.918 --> 01:26:19.738
subterranean water reserves,

1743
01:26:20.358 --> 01:26:27.258
or it can also be through basically large dams that are placed in,

1744
01:26:27.358 --> 01:26:27.598
you know,

1745
01:26:28.098 --> 01:26:29.158
in not mountain areas,

1746
01:26:29.198 --> 01:26:30.618
but in southern Portugal,

1747
01:26:30.658 --> 01:26:31.358
there's a lot of them.

1748
01:26:31.818 --> 01:26:39.378
So each municipality or some municipalities will have a large dam that they've built and they will be distributing,

1749
01:26:40.378 --> 01:26:45.278
the local water company will be distributing the water to the farmers.

1750
01:26:45.698 --> 01:26:45.858
Okay.

1751
01:26:46.146 --> 01:26:47.146
In southern Portugal,

1752
01:26:47.286 --> 01:26:50.186
we have the biggest dam in Europe.

1753
01:26:50.446 --> 01:26:51.346
It's called the Alqueva.

1754
01:26:52.166 --> 01:26:52.846
It's the biggest,

1755
01:26:53.266 --> 01:26:53.706
basically,

1756
01:26:54.186 --> 01:26:56.806
they cut off the Guadiana River and they created a huge dam.

1757
01:26:58.246 --> 01:26:58.986
The biggest in Europe.

1758
01:26:59.046 --> 01:27:06.306
So this water is serving a huge amount of super intensive olive hectares in the region.

1759
01:27:06.926 --> 01:27:07.046
Okay,

1760
01:27:07.086 --> 01:27:07.926
so that's sustainable?

1761
01:27:10.466 --> 01:27:14.826
There's a lot of conversation around dams.

1762
01:27:15.114 --> 01:27:15.334
right,

1763
01:27:15.394 --> 01:27:17.296
in terms of their ecological impact.

1764
01:27:18.797 --> 01:27:20.198
I'm not a specialist on that.

1765
01:27:21.539 --> 01:27:23.320
My understanding is that it's not ideal,

1766
01:27:24.782 --> 01:27:25.222
but again,

1767
01:27:26.303 --> 01:27:28.084
it's something that is difficult to...

1768
01:27:28.625 --> 01:27:28.845
Sure,

1769
01:27:28.945 --> 01:27:29.065
yeah.

1770
01:27:29.405 --> 01:27:29.525
Yeah,

1771
01:27:29.545 --> 01:27:33.749
but I just thought it's an important question because some systems,

1772
01:27:33.829 --> 01:27:35.070
we had a previous episode,

1773
01:27:35.071 --> 01:27:37.071
we talked about almond production in

1774
01:27:37.472 --> 01:27:37.912
California.

1775
01:27:38.530 --> 01:27:57.770
and how they're using a lot of irrigation water from underground water which is limited yeah so i mean it can work really well and make you a lot of profit right now but that's not a long-term solution at some point they're going to be limited by that factor and so i was just wondering if you meant sustainable in terms of how reliable it is um

1776
01:27:58.150 --> 01:28:07.390
if you can keep doing it for generations without depleting the resource basically yeah the the resource depends on rainfall and so the question is

1777
01:28:08.402 --> 01:28:10.830
To what extent can we depend on rainfall?

1778
01:28:11.359 --> 01:28:12.120
The dam has,

1779
01:28:12.121 --> 01:28:14.001
the Alkeva has three to four years,

1780
01:28:14.021 --> 01:28:16.723
I think they say four years of water.

1781
01:28:17.104 --> 01:28:17.984
So if it doesn't rain,

1782
01:28:18.204 --> 01:28:20.126
it can store water for four years of use.

1783
01:28:21.267 --> 01:28:22.548
The problem is what happens,

1784
01:28:22.928 --> 01:28:23.388
well firstly,

1785
01:28:24.709 --> 01:28:24.950
I mean,

1786
01:28:25.970 --> 01:28:28.573
I don't know where they get that necessarily that number from and etc.

1787
01:28:29.033 --> 01:28:32.836
But what happens if we have successive years of drought?

1788
01:28:35.738 --> 01:28:37.159
And reserves go very low.

1789
01:28:38.500 --> 01:28:38.841
And so

1790
01:28:39.621 --> 01:28:40.142
I think that

1791
01:28:40.643 --> 01:28:59.898
take into account the current climate context it's not far-fetched to think that we need to be very careful about or at least incorporate into our risk analyses the fact that potentially we won't be able we won't be allocated as much water in the future if we have successive years of drought yeah so from

1792
01:28:59.978 --> 01:29:09.526
that perspective yeah it's it's one more risk that needs to be managed yeah yeah and from that perspective is that also something that you integrate in your designs I mean,

1793
01:29:09.586 --> 01:29:09.786
you're...

1794
01:29:10.339 --> 01:29:13.061
is to have this regenerative water management,

1795
01:29:13.261 --> 01:29:13.622
try to,

1796
01:29:14.022 --> 01:29:14.362
I don't know,

1797
01:29:14.442 --> 01:29:21.148
create ponds or swales or harvest water in some ways to make sure that you're less reliant on that irrigation.

1798
01:29:22.048 --> 01:29:24.690
The best way to store water is in the soil.

1799
01:29:26.412 --> 01:29:26.792
Of course,

1800
01:29:26.793 --> 01:29:29.674
we can build dams on the farms and this is,

1801
01:29:30.074 --> 01:29:31.896
many farms already come with their dams.

1802
01:29:33.257 --> 01:29:34.378
But from our perspective,

1803
01:29:34.398 --> 01:29:36.560
from a regenerative agriculture perspective,

1804
01:29:38.121 --> 01:29:38.901
it's extremely important.

1805
01:29:38.919 --> 01:29:49.819
important that we regenerate our soil so that we can capture as much of the water that comes down in rainfall and it doesn't go off in overflow and erosion,

1806
01:29:51.399 --> 01:29:55.839
that we increase organic matter so that the soil has the capacity to absorb more water,

1807
01:29:56.619 --> 01:30:04.019
that we break compaction issues so that the water in the soil has the capacity to move effectively up and down.

1808
01:30:06.087 --> 01:30:12.327
important flow of water from lower reserves in the deeper soil strata towards the surface.

1809
01:30:12.328 --> 01:30:13.987
So when you have a compaction layer,

1810
01:30:14.027 --> 01:30:17.967
this movement is blocked and the trees don't manage to tap into deeper water sources.

1811
01:30:18.467 --> 01:30:18.647
Okay,

1812
01:30:20.307 --> 01:30:25.107
and then there's also the importance of reducing evaporation from the soil.

1813
01:30:25.487 --> 01:30:27.847
So by covering the soil with biomass,

1814
01:30:27.867 --> 01:30:29.127
especially during the summer months,

1815
01:30:29.347 --> 01:30:31.767
doing the mulching that we talked about as well.

1816
01:30:32.407 --> 01:30:34.687
So all these different practices.

1817
01:30:35.055 --> 01:30:53.449
are helping us are helping the farmer on every square meter to manage water better and these have significant influences on these practices have significant influences on water management so we're more on we're more looking at optimizing water on the on the whole orchard than managing for example swales etc because

1818
01:30:53.810 --> 01:30:57.232
and even in terms from an economic perspective but also but also from an ergonomic perspective,

1819
01:30:57.733 --> 01:30:58.694
swells are effective.

1820
01:30:59.175 --> 01:31:03.459
when you have a situation where you have a very steep land,

1821
01:31:03.479 --> 01:31:03.999
for example,

1822
01:31:04.059 --> 01:31:05.360
and there's excessive water flow.

1823
01:31:06.001 --> 01:31:12.306
But organic matter in the soil and a well-structured soil with a good infiltration rate can manage,

1824
01:31:12.406 --> 01:31:12.646
you know,

1825
01:31:12.726 --> 01:31:14.007
can do what a soil does,

1826
01:31:14.067 --> 01:31:16.169
but on the whole landscape very effectively.

1827
01:31:16.549 --> 01:31:17.349
You can really,

1828
01:31:17.510 --> 01:31:19.911
and it's one of the first parameters that you see change,

1829
01:31:20.252 --> 01:31:21.353
is the water infiltration.

1830
01:31:21.413 --> 01:31:22.794
It's one of the main KPIs,

1831
01:31:22.795 --> 01:31:26.557
the first KPIs that's improving in a regeneration,

1832
01:31:26.717 --> 01:31:27.838
in a regenerative transition.

1833
01:31:28.327 --> 01:31:33.131
So we can really improve water infiltration at a pretty large scale with all these practices we talked about.

1834
01:31:34.172 --> 01:31:34.412
Awesome.

1835
01:31:34.692 --> 01:31:35.092
Yeah,

1836
01:31:35.873 --> 01:31:36.934
that's our focus for water.

1837
01:31:38.835 --> 01:31:42.658
Something else I really wanted to ask is the question of quality.

1838
01:31:43.379 --> 01:31:46.261
Do you see a difference in the quality of production?

1839
01:31:46.421 --> 01:31:49.183
And especially when you would talk about the olives.

1840
01:31:49.511 --> 01:32:06.464
the quality really matters right and so you see a difference in quality between different systems so the different density of systems but also when you make a system more regenerative with better soil health and everything do you measure better

1841
01:32:06.504 --> 01:32:07.705
quality of products basically

1842
01:32:09.139 --> 01:32:11.161
So we are in our current

1843
01:32:12.262 --> 01:32:13.903
R&D project at Ambuinova,

1844
01:32:14.043 --> 01:32:16.845
we are measuring nutrient density.

1845
01:32:18.146 --> 01:32:27.233
So we're going to have an understanding of the effects of our practices in a conventional and intensive setting.

1846
01:32:28.754 --> 01:32:29.935
So that's going to be interesting to see.

1847
01:32:30.576 --> 01:32:32.878
What the studies are showing with olives,

1848
01:32:33.378 --> 01:32:34.739
because it's something that's quite

1849
01:32:35.583 --> 01:32:43.589
They are tracking these things with olives due to the polyphenol content and the importance that that has on the quality,

1850
01:32:43.709 --> 01:32:44.570
the taste quality,

1851
01:32:46.592 --> 01:32:48.633
the storage of the olive oil as well.

1852
01:32:49.014 --> 01:32:53.657
And what you're seeing is that the more fertilization you apply,

1853
01:32:54.198 --> 01:32:55.098
the lower the quality.

1854
01:32:57.280 --> 01:32:57.840
So typically,

1855
01:32:57.860 --> 01:32:59.942
the higher the yield the lower the quality.

1856
01:33:01.023 --> 01:33:04.446
What's lacking from this is the fact that

1857
01:33:05.712 --> 01:33:13.778
Fertilization here is obviously a conventional synthetic fertilizer based fertilization.

1858
01:33:14.619 --> 01:33:17.021
What happens when you have a different kind of fertilization?

1859
01:33:18.182 --> 01:33:20.103
You're still going for an intense production,

1860
01:33:20.243 --> 01:33:21.164
a high production,

1861
01:33:21.705 --> 01:33:25.127
but with a fertilization that is based on a regenerative approach.

1862
01:33:26.628 --> 01:33:27.589
There's no data on that.

1863
01:33:29.451 --> 01:33:33.314
That's what we're going to be doing and that's one of the of the most innovative parts of our project,

1864
01:33:33.854 --> 01:33:35.115
because we could then see

1865
01:33:35.780 --> 01:33:36.280
Hopefully,

1866
01:33:36.861 --> 01:33:44.067
if what we do understand about nutrient density and about the quality of the product is that it's very linked to microbiological health.

1867
01:33:44.927 --> 01:33:50.131
And so if the regenerative practices are able to regenerate microbiological health,

1868
01:33:50.852 --> 01:33:55.015
then we could theoretically say,

1869
01:33:56.897 --> 01:33:59.399
or the hypothesis is that if we have,

1870
01:34:00.539 --> 01:34:01.820
we can maintain yields,

1871
01:34:02.201 --> 01:34:03.262
but increase quality.

1872
01:34:03.736 --> 01:34:04.797
And then we're on a win-win.

1873
01:34:04.997 --> 01:34:05.237
Again,

1874
01:34:05.277 --> 01:34:05.898
as you can see,

1875
01:34:06.398 --> 01:34:09.260
I'm constantly coming back to this thing of maintaining yields,

1876
01:34:09.320 --> 01:34:09.521
right?

1877
01:34:09.541 --> 01:34:13.103
That's like our approach in order to communicate to the industry,

1878
01:34:13.524 --> 01:34:16.346
it's we maintain yield or at least maintain profitability,

1879
01:34:16.466 --> 01:34:16.606
right?

1880
01:34:16.626 --> 01:34:18.628
Because yield is not always correlated to profitability.

1881
01:34:20.229 --> 01:34:24.733
So that's kind of theoretically that we should be going in that direction.

1882
01:34:24.833 --> 01:34:26.754
But now let's see in practice and in our context,

1883
01:34:26.755 --> 01:34:27.655
if that's really the case.

1884
01:34:28.304 --> 01:34:34.109
What I can also say is that going back to an organic producer in the region that is producing with Super Intensive,

1885
01:34:34.929 --> 01:34:40.654
this producer is winning awards with his olive oil and he's producing 20%

1886
01:34:41.054 --> 01:34:42.976
less than the conventional producers.

1887
01:34:43.816 --> 01:34:45.457
And that's about standard for organic.

1888
01:34:45.918 --> 01:34:51.642
So he's still on very high yields in super intensive systems.

1889
01:34:51.762 --> 01:34:53.163
So it's super intensive density.

1890
01:34:53.444 --> 01:34:53.864
Exactly.

1891
01:34:55.108 --> 01:35:01.453
So that's quite promising because this person is getting very high levels,

1892
01:35:02.514 --> 01:35:09.079
nutrient levels in a very high density and with very high yield and fertilization.

1893
01:35:09.199 --> 01:35:11.141
But obviously the fertilization is organic.

1894
01:35:11.201 --> 01:35:12.722
So that's the nuance there.

1895
01:35:13.142 --> 01:35:13.342
Okay,

1896
01:35:13.402 --> 01:35:22.730
so it kind of suggests that your gut feeling about being able to improve the quality while maintaining the density would be possible.

1897
01:35:23.304 --> 01:35:24.564
I think it should be possible.

1898
01:35:25.924 --> 01:35:31.524
I have more of a gut feeling when it comes to soul health and what we can do there than when it comes to the density of the food,

1899
01:35:31.824 --> 01:35:32.924
of the olive oil,

1900
01:35:33.044 --> 01:35:33.664
of the quality.

1901
01:35:34.544 --> 01:35:34.664
So

1902
01:35:35.564 --> 01:35:38.144
I'm hesitant to affirm this too strongly,

1903
01:35:38.584 --> 01:35:41.984
but I think that there's some pretty interesting,

1904
01:35:42.464 --> 01:35:44.064
we're going into a pretty interesting direction.

1905
01:35:44.444 --> 01:35:44.804
Yeah,

1906
01:35:44.805 --> 01:35:46.584
that's something super important to follow.

1907
01:35:47.324 --> 01:35:48.504
And if that's the case,

1908
01:35:48.524 --> 01:35:49.484
if you can prove that,

1909
01:35:50.264 --> 01:35:51.684
I think it's kind of huge,

1910
01:35:51.744 --> 01:35:51.864
no?

1911
01:35:51.964 --> 01:35:52.344
because the

1912
01:35:52.852 --> 01:35:53.892
When we talk about olive oil,

1913
01:35:54.612 --> 01:35:55.292
the quality,

1914
01:35:55.832 --> 01:35:56.652
the nutrient density,

1915
01:35:56.672 --> 01:35:57.692
the level of polyphenols,

1916
01:35:57.792 --> 01:36:03.352
all of that really impact the price that the farmer can sell his olive oil for,

1917
01:36:03.492 --> 01:36:03.712
right?

1918
01:36:04.292 --> 01:36:05.812
Depends where the farmer is selling.

1919
01:36:05.832 --> 01:36:07.532
If he's selling to the commodity markets,

1920
01:36:07.692 --> 01:36:10.372
then he just needs a minimum amount of polyphenols.

1921
01:36:11.412 --> 01:36:12.652
And that's the issue.

1922
01:36:12.752 --> 01:36:17.212
And when we're talking about what it takes to activate the regenerative transition,

1923
01:36:17.332 --> 01:36:18.672
and when we're working with the industry,

1924
01:36:19.792 --> 01:36:22.032
we have to align with the buyers.

1925
01:36:22.344 --> 01:36:22.764
Currently,

1926
01:36:22.864 --> 01:36:23.425
the buyers,

1927
01:36:23.505 --> 01:36:24.366
even for olive oil,

1928
01:36:25.326 --> 01:36:26.227
they're saying you need

1929
01:36:26.567 --> 01:36:29.770
X percent of polyphenols above this and X acidity.

1930
01:36:30.390 --> 01:36:31.491
If you meet these standards,

1931
01:36:31.591 --> 01:36:35.334
you have a extra virgin olive oil and you can sell it.

1932
01:36:37.516 --> 01:36:46.063
And what we also need to understand is that the people that are selling on more the higher quality olive oil to different markets,

1933
01:36:46.103 --> 01:36:51.407
the more niche markets only represents a certain percentage of the olive oil sold.

1934
01:36:52.332 --> 01:36:58.697
So there isn't space in the market for everybody to start selling high quality olive oil.

1935
01:36:58.897 --> 01:36:59.478
You see what I mean?

1936
01:36:59.638 --> 01:36:59.838
Okay.

1937
01:37:00.158 --> 01:37:05.663
So what we need to do is that we need to start engaging in conversations with the buyers and start to say,

1938
01:37:06.883 --> 01:37:11.087
would you be ready to give a certain premium for a higher quality olive oil?

1939
01:37:12.007 --> 01:37:12.668
Or maybe for them,

1940
01:37:12.728 --> 01:37:18.473
it's more about they would be paying a premium for a more ecologically healthy olive oil.

1941
01:37:18.813 --> 01:37:20.434
So we need to find the pressure points.

1942
01:37:21.736 --> 01:37:36.036
of the buyers so that then we can start to align vertically connect the suppliers and the buyers and we can start to build an incentive program for regenerative transition.

1943
01:37:38.556 --> 01:37:41.136
How do you see technology fitting into all of this?

1944
01:37:41.856 --> 01:37:46.516
And I'm saying specifically we've talked about how technology improves efficiency,

1945
01:37:46.936 --> 01:37:47.936
yield efficiency and all that,

1946
01:37:47.976 --> 01:37:49.976
but I'm specifically thinking about.

1947
01:37:50.516 --> 01:37:52.321
helping farmers be more regenerative.

1948
01:37:53.604 --> 01:37:53.724
Yeah,

1949
01:37:54.045 --> 01:37:54.726
and that's spot on.

1950
01:37:54.727 --> 01:37:55.568
You understood well,

1951
01:37:55.729 --> 01:37:56.049
I think,

1952
01:37:56.871 --> 01:37:57.473
the point here,

1953
01:37:57.493 --> 01:37:57.834
which is...

1954
01:38:00.544 --> 01:38:06.289
Technology and especially precision agriculture technology,

1955
01:38:07.510 --> 01:38:08.610
so data management,

1956
01:38:08.710 --> 01:38:09.771
data production on the farm,

1957
01:38:09.811 --> 01:38:13.794
that really helps farmers be more efficient and apply best practices.

1958
01:38:13.814 --> 01:38:15.636
That's actually a big part of best practices.

1959
01:38:15.716 --> 01:38:17.097
If we look at the water example,

1960
01:38:18.118 --> 01:38:26.464
more and more farmers are using soil humidity sensors and have their own weather stations so that they can then be very efficient in their irrigation programming and they can save,

1961
01:38:27.785 --> 01:38:29.787
they can reduce or maximize.

1962
01:38:30.080 --> 01:38:30.520
let's say,

1963
01:38:30.901 --> 01:38:32.062
their water use efficiency.

1964
01:38:33.283 --> 01:38:35.204
So that's one of the key roles of technology.

1965
01:38:35.805 --> 01:38:37.386
From a transition perspective,

1966
01:38:38.967 --> 01:38:40.648
so from a regenerative transition,

1967
01:38:41.169 --> 01:38:46.273
so looking at technology to support the implementation of regenerative practices,

1968
01:38:47.394 --> 01:38:48.494
there is a tendency,

1969
01:38:48.695 --> 01:38:56.341
so my understanding and where I stand with this is that these practices are kind of like biotechnology.

1970
01:38:57.088 --> 01:38:58.069
So in itself,

1971
01:38:58.349 --> 01:39:01.712
they are new technologies that are coming into the space.

1972
01:39:02.652 --> 01:39:03.353
Many times,

1973
01:39:03.413 --> 01:39:09.338
these biotechnologies are requiring a very visual and hands-on approach.

1974
01:39:09.778 --> 01:39:09.998
You know,

1975
01:39:10.018 --> 01:39:10.699
a cover crop,

1976
01:39:10.739 --> 01:39:11.379
for example.

1977
01:39:11.860 --> 01:39:15.162
If you want to know what's the KPIs that you're tracking for your cover crop,

1978
01:39:15.382 --> 01:39:17.664
it's the development of the different species,

1979
01:39:17.804 --> 01:39:19.025
the biomass production.

1980
01:39:19.806 --> 01:39:20.006
Okay,

1981
01:39:20.867 --> 01:39:22.348
that's a key one,

1982
01:39:22.428 --> 01:39:23.409
the biomass production.

1983
01:39:24.630 --> 01:39:24.930
And so...

1984
01:39:25.504 --> 01:39:28.166
You can't use technology to measure biomass.

1985
01:39:28.167 --> 01:39:37.814
You have to go out there and do some sampling and weigh them and be able to understand your biomass so that then you can understand your nutritional contribution of the cover crop.

1986
01:39:38.214 --> 01:39:46.140
It's also another KPI for the cover crop is looking at your legumes and how well your legumes have formed the rhizobia nodules on their roots.

1987
01:39:46.621 --> 01:39:48.302
So you have to literally pull out a plant,

1988
01:39:48.402 --> 01:39:48.862
get a knife,

1989
01:39:48.902 --> 01:39:53.246
cut open the rhizobia and start to see if they're red and how many there are.

1990
01:39:54.232 --> 01:39:56.874
So these are the kind of things which it's still a very,

1991
01:39:56.894 --> 01:39:57.455
you know,

1992
01:39:57.975 --> 01:39:58.595
hands-on,

1993
01:39:59.176 --> 01:39:59.636
manual,

1994
01:39:59.756 --> 01:40:01.678
observational approach.

1995
01:40:04.120 --> 01:40:08.283
And so technology is kind of limited in the way that it can contribute.

1996
01:40:08.303 --> 01:40:10.184
There are some things that are happening.

1997
01:40:10.585 --> 01:40:15.128
One of the technologies that's interesting is alternative weeding solutions like laser weeding.

1998
01:40:15.829 --> 01:40:17.730
Another one is drones for application,

1999
01:40:17.790 --> 01:40:19.212
but this is still entering.

2000
01:40:19.672 --> 01:40:21.653
These are still entering kind of best practices,

2001
01:40:21.693 --> 01:40:22.014
I think.

2002
01:40:23.672 --> 01:40:25.892
I wouldn't like drone applications of nutrients,

2003
01:40:25.972 --> 01:40:26.112
etc.

2004
01:40:27.472 --> 01:40:27.892
It's still,

2005
01:40:28.332 --> 01:40:28.572
I mean,

2006
01:40:28.612 --> 01:40:29.712
it's an interesting technology,

2007
01:40:29.752 --> 01:40:29.872
but

2008
01:40:30.872 --> 01:40:35.612
I would still put it into the category of we're applying efficient applications of fertilizers.

2009
01:40:36.612 --> 01:40:41.752
One aspect where technology is helping is for basically MRV.

2010
01:40:42.452 --> 01:40:43.092
So monitoring,

2011
01:40:43.132 --> 01:40:44.232
reporting and verification.

2012
01:40:44.712 --> 01:40:51.112
Because there is a lot of satellite technology now and remote sensing that is enabling us to

2013
01:40:51.540 --> 01:40:53.540
understand the evolution of the farm.

2014
01:40:53.620 --> 01:40:54.700
Is the farm getting greener,

2015
01:40:54.760 --> 01:40:55.340
for example,

2016
01:40:55.600 --> 01:40:56.360
with NDVI?

2017
01:40:56.680 --> 01:40:57.620
Are we seeing a bigger,

2018
01:40:57.840 --> 01:41:00.840
are we seeing farmers produce or plant more cover crops?

2019
01:41:01.240 --> 01:41:04.420
Are we seeing a longer duration of covered soil?

2020
01:41:04.900 --> 01:41:13.820
So there's a lot of different metrics like this that are monitored by satellite remote sensing that then allows for companies to be doing efficient MRV and reporting back to,

2021
01:41:14.000 --> 01:41:14.240
you know,

2022
01:41:14.640 --> 01:41:19.640
this is a kind of a supply chain transition conversation.

2023
01:41:19.641 --> 01:41:20.240
conversation.

2024
01:41:20.700 --> 01:41:20.820
Yeah.

2025
01:41:21.692 --> 01:41:23.832
But for the specific practices,

2026
01:41:23.892 --> 01:41:25.792
technology to support us in these practices,

2027
01:41:25.852 --> 01:41:30.092
we're using biotechnologies such as different types of analyses like sap analysis.

2028
01:41:31.012 --> 01:41:33.452
It's these kind of technologies that are useful,

2029
01:41:33.472 --> 01:41:36.932
but not usually what we consider kind of a modern,

2030
01:41:38.812 --> 01:41:41.032
more technological technology.

2031
01:41:41.352 --> 01:41:41.532
Okay.

2032
01:41:42.192 --> 01:41:45.952
So what's been the hardest moment you've experienced so far in that journey?

2033
01:41:47.732 --> 01:41:50.432
I think the challenge...

2034
01:41:50.740 --> 01:41:58.020
in implementing new practices in a new context is the learning curve at the beginning.

2035
01:41:58.260 --> 01:42:00.360
And learning curve means making mistakes.

2036
01:42:01.120 --> 01:42:03.080
And so I think that in this whole journey,

2037
01:42:03.160 --> 01:42:05.560
actually for seven or eight years now doing this,

2038
01:42:06.180 --> 01:42:12.640
the most difficult has been the amount of mistakes necessary to get it right.

2039
01:42:13.560 --> 01:42:16.680
So as I said earlier on in the conversation,

2040
01:42:16.700 --> 01:42:19.080
there's so many things you can get wrong with a cover crop.

2041
01:42:19.704 --> 01:42:35.336
the planting depth of the seed the planting type of the seed the seed selection and the variety selection um you can look at the soil preparation beforehand if you did it well or you messed it up or there's so many things that can go wrong um and

2042
01:42:36.158 --> 01:42:42.783
I think the most challenging has been when you're coming to a new context and you're trying to do things for the first time,

2043
01:42:42.903 --> 01:42:45.545
inevitably you're going to make mistakes and you've just...

2044
01:42:45.906 --> 01:42:49.508
I wasn't expecting it to be psychologically kind of...

2045
01:42:50.029 --> 01:42:52.471
You see things not working and you've just got to just keep going,

2046
01:42:53.231 --> 01:42:53.992
keep grinding.

2047
01:42:54.552 --> 01:42:56.094
Because at some point you're going to get it right,

2048
01:42:56.134 --> 01:42:57.054
and then when you get it right,

2049
01:42:57.094 --> 01:42:57.855
you've worked it out.

2050
01:42:58.475 --> 01:43:02.459
And each failure and each mistake is a huge experience to understand,

2051
01:43:02.679 --> 01:43:02.879
okay,

2052
01:43:03.119 --> 01:43:03.299
what

2053
01:43:03.494 --> 01:43:22.289
are the factors that i need to consider to get it right so to get one thing to do things something really well you need to do you know you need to make maybe three or four mistakes so you understand okay and and then you have a solid then you have knowledge then you have experience so um i think that's been the most challenging right yes absolutely um

2054
01:43:22.849 --> 01:43:31.536
when i first came into the space the regenerative agriculture space a couple of years ago i was looking for very clear solutions to very clear problems.

2055
01:43:32.016 --> 01:43:32.216
Very...

2056
01:43:33.046 --> 01:43:34.366
binary kind of mindset,

2057
01:43:34.446 --> 01:43:34.686
right?

2058
01:43:35.346 --> 01:43:38.246
And over the last couple of years,

2059
01:43:38.286 --> 01:43:38.966
I learned that,

2060
01:43:39.026 --> 01:43:39.286
you know,

2061
01:43:39.326 --> 01:43:40.506
nature doesn't work that way,

2062
01:43:40.806 --> 01:43:45.106
that it's very unpredictable and everything is so context specific.

2063
01:43:45.186 --> 01:43:51.066
And it's kind of frustrating when you're looking for clear answers because the answers are always more complicated than you expected.

2064
01:43:51.126 --> 01:43:51.466
But yeah,

2065
01:43:51.946 --> 01:44:00.526
I guess the lesson I've learned from this is that making mistakes is part of the regenerative transition.

2066
01:44:00.998 --> 01:44:06.878
It's impossible to just get it all right from the first time just because you read the book or because you had the right advisor.

2067
01:44:07.558 --> 01:44:10.018
There will be some mistakes made no matter what.

2068
01:44:10.158 --> 01:44:11.298
And that's just it's part of it.

2069
01:44:11.578 --> 01:44:11.758
Right.

2070
01:44:13.358 --> 01:44:18.638
There's a really good expression which is called safe to fail trials.

2071
01:44:19.958 --> 01:44:20.538
And basically,

2072
01:44:20.678 --> 01:44:22.898
when you're doing a regenerative transition,

2073
01:44:23.058 --> 01:44:23.178
OK,

2074
01:44:23.298 --> 01:44:24.538
so we're working with the client.

2075
01:44:25.738 --> 01:44:30.098
We don't just apply practices on their 500 hectares straight right up.

2076
01:44:30.990 --> 01:44:32.651
We set up trials,

2077
01:44:32.992 --> 01:44:34.893
safe to fail trials.

2078
01:44:34.913 --> 01:44:36.795
So that means that if a mistake goes wrong,

2079
01:44:36.815 --> 01:44:39.116
it doesn't have a big economic burden on the operation.

2080
01:44:39.937 --> 01:44:41.238
And little by little,

2081
01:44:41.318 --> 01:44:42.179
there's a learning curve.

2082
01:44:42.679 --> 01:44:46.642
Even if the consultant or the technician knows the context and comes in,

2083
01:44:47.083 --> 01:44:47.983
the teams don't.

2084
01:44:48.624 --> 01:44:56.750
And so everybody involved in the operation is needed to make sure that the new practice works well.

2085
01:44:57.271 --> 01:45:00.033
So it's not just about the consultant coming in and saying,

2086
01:45:00.233 --> 01:45:00.353
And

2087
01:45:00.354 --> 01:45:00.582
you know,

2088
01:45:00.622 --> 01:45:01.483
this is what you need to do.

2089
01:45:01.543 --> 01:45:04.986
It's everybody together needing to get things right for it to work.

2090
01:45:05.466 --> 01:45:08.328
And so there is inevitably a team learning curve.

2091
01:45:11.631 --> 01:45:12.011
And that's,

2092
01:45:12.351 --> 01:45:17.796
you kind of overcome that by setting up trials and by slowly transitioning.

2093
01:45:18.496 --> 01:45:23.020
We often think that regenerative agriculture is a lot about agronomy and ecology,

2094
01:45:23.520 --> 01:45:25.882
but it's much more so about humans.

2095
01:45:26.830 --> 01:45:28.490
So even within a team,

2096
01:45:28.510 --> 01:45:30.090
when you're coming on a big farm like this,

2097
01:45:30.130 --> 01:45:34.130
and they've got a technical team and operators and tractor drivers,

2098
01:45:34.190 --> 01:45:35.710
and there's a whole set of people,

2099
01:45:36.070 --> 01:45:37.030
they're not always on board.

2100
01:45:37.050 --> 01:45:39.050
They don't always really believe in what you're saying,

2101
01:45:39.070 --> 01:45:42.030
and neither do they really want to help you out so much.

2102
01:45:42.490 --> 01:45:44.930
So there's a lot of overcoming that psychological,

2103
01:45:45.150 --> 01:45:46.810
kind of those psychological barriers,

2104
01:45:46.870 --> 01:45:49.450
people that have been doing these things a certain way most of their life.

2105
01:45:49.470 --> 01:45:51.570
And then you're coming in with something new and crazy.

2106
01:45:51.690 --> 01:45:51.810
And,

2107
01:45:52.270 --> 01:45:52.550
you know,

2108
01:45:53.170 --> 01:45:53.890
it's challenging.

2109
01:45:54.402 --> 01:45:56.103
And so you have to onboard them,

2110
01:45:56.143 --> 01:45:57.064
you have to convince them,

2111
01:45:57.065 --> 01:45:58.085
you have to show them,

2112
01:45:58.806 --> 01:45:59.026
you know,

2113
01:45:59.066 --> 01:46:00.667
there's a lot of communication involved.

2114
01:46:00.847 --> 01:46:06.472
And so I think that's one of the key aspects about regenerative agriculture that's potentially not talked about enough.

2115
01:46:06.972 --> 01:46:08.233
It's not just about agronomy,

2116
01:46:08.333 --> 01:46:09.594
it's much more about humans.

2117
01:46:09.754 --> 01:46:09.874
Yeah,

2118
01:46:10.515 --> 01:46:10.815
awesome.

2119
01:46:10.855 --> 01:46:13.497
We're going to close the conversation here.

2120
01:46:14.057 --> 01:46:14.678
Thank you so much,

2121
01:46:14.718 --> 01:46:15.078
Dimitri,

2122
01:46:15.278 --> 01:46:16.780
for giving us your time,

2123
01:46:16.840 --> 01:46:17.580
your knowledge,

2124
01:46:17.780 --> 01:46:18.461
your passion,

2125
01:46:19.001 --> 01:46:20.482
and for explaining all of these.

2126
01:46:21.034 --> 01:46:32.873
quite complex topic in such a clear understandable manner i really appreciate it and i'm sure the people listening did as well so thank you thanks hafell thanks so much for having me here and um and yeah good luck with everything thanks