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This is the time for Europe to really come together,

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 to build from the foundations we've created,

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 to create something which is strong in a global context,

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 and which gives us better,

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 more secure,

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 more decarbonized,

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 more affordable energy in the moment.

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 But that's going to need a bit of change.

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The energy transition is happening,

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 but is it fair?

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 Is it working for people like you and me?

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 or just for big market players.

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 Welcome to Energetic.

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 I am Mayim Cornelis,

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 an expert in energy and climate policies,

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 and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future.

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 Activists,

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 scientists,

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 policymakers,

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 the real people making real change,

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 often against the odds.

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 Here,

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 we do not settle for surface-level takes.

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 We dig into the challenges,

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 the solutions,

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 and the lessons that do not always make the headlines.

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 And in doing so,

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 We rediscover something vital,

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 our ability to trust in institutions,

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 to believe in change,

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 and to reclaim our power to act.

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 Because if we want just resilience,

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 if we want just transition,

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 we need to understand what it takes to make it happen.

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 And more importantly,

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 we need to believe that we can.

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 Let's get into it.

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I've always found energy trading mysterious.

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 It's essential.

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 to our energy system,

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 yet often shrouded in jargon and kept just out of sight.

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 Traders are the heavy lifters behind the scene,

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 but who are they,

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 really?

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 And what exactly do they do?

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 To find out,

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 I sat down with Mark Copley,

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 CEO of Energy Traders Europe.

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 Mark has spent over 20 years shaping Europe's energy market from OVDEM to BIS,

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 from the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement,

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 to the complex world of carbon,

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 gas,

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 and power trading.

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 He's been everywhere,

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 really.

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 But more than she's cheesy,

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 what strikes me is Mark's honesty.

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 He doesn't shy away from hard questions.

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 So in this episode,

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 we explore the mysterious failure of trading and whether it is perhaps just a little bit deliberate.

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 We talk about the extra mortgage,

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 PPM miss,

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 and why the sector still feels like a boys'

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 club.

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 But we also unpack how trading enables decarbonization,

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 competition and system resilience when it's done right.

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 Could energy markets work better for people and the planet?

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 You know me,

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 I always want to explore the big picture and I really want to understand where the silver linings are.

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 So a big thank you to the Energy Traders Europe team for joining in and also sponsoring this series.

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 This conversation is for anyone who wants to understand what happens behind the scenes of Europe's energy transition.

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 and why it matters more than ever that we bring these conversations into the open.

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 Mark,

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 welcome to Energetic.

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Thank you so much,

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 Varian.

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 It's lovely to be here,

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 although I can't pretend to not be slightly intimidated to cover those subjects in this time,

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 but this will be fun.

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Okay,

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 thank you so much,

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 Mark.

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 So let's start with your story.

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 How did a young economist,

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 and energy traders at the European level,

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 what has this journey taught you?

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Oh,

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 so I think I'll start by saying I don't think I'm particularly mysterious.

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 I'm someone who thinks the energy markets are fundamentally a good idea.

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 But to try and explain,

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 when I was a kid,

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 every holiday I went on was on the train to somewhere in Europe.

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 So I got on the boat from Britain and I went to the Hook of Holland.

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 And I remember standing in Hook of Holland train station.

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 where you can see these trains going to different places in Europe.

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 I'm very old.

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 This was long before Eurotunnel.

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 And

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 I loved the idea that you could get the train to anywhere in Europe and you could meet different people and experience different stuff.

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 Now,

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 my mom is a French and Russian teacher.

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 My dad is an obsessive train spotter,

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 which is probably why we were going on the train.

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 But basically,

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 I traveled all around Europe and I fell in love with the idea that all of the difference you have in Europe

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 can be harnessed to do something which is better than the sum of its parts.

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 Now this might become a bit weird later on so but I got into energy purely by luck.

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 An ex-girlfriend's mom moaned at me to get a proper job and I was lucky enough to get a job working for Ofgem the regulator and

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 I absolutely loved it.

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 Politics meets economics meets everybody's lives it's super important.

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 We did that for a while,

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 worked,

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 loved electricity.

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 When I got worried I might not be able to do electricity forever,

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 which is ironic,

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 went and worked in consultancy,

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 did a bit of gas,

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 bit of railways,

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 so on,

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 and then went back to what I cared about.

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 And

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 I wanted to work in Brussels.

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 So I moved to Brussels,

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 luckily enough,

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 to work for the transmission companies of Europe.

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 Big old beast called Ensoe,

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 which was much less big then,

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 and performing a really important role of writing the rules for a European market.

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 Worked with them,

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 absolutely adored it.

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 Though working with people from around Europe took me back to those early days of European holidays.

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 Thought it was absolutely brilliant.

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 I actually thought the thing we were working for

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 It's hugely important as well.

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 That idea that we can make supply more secure,

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 decarbonize more quickly and more cheaply and get better prices to customers.

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 It's what you're taught as a regulator.

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 So I did that for four years.

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 And then actually speaking of regulators,

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 Ofgem came to me and said,

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 would you like to come back?

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 And at that point I was like,

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 well,

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 actually,

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 I think I would.

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 So I went back to being a regulator,

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 but kept one foot in the European game.

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 Sitting on the board of ASA and having the pleasure and privilege of supporting the chair of that association at the time,

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 a guy called Lord Mogg.

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 So I was responsible for wholesale markets at Ofgem.

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 And then Britain decided to leave the European Union,

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 which concerned

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 Brexit. Now,

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 not much point sitting on the board of a European energy regulator when your country's leaving the European Union.

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 So that rather changed my career a little bit fundamentally.

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 So that took me into government and into the Brexit negotiation.

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 Really,

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 it's that geek who happens to know what the rules look like,

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 who you need to have a conversation with the EU about post-Brexit trading arrangements.

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Yeah,

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 to limit the damage,

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right?

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 I probably wouldn't have framed it like that at the time.

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 But yeah,

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 you need to try and make the best of a bad situation.

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 Because fundamentally,

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 the molecules and electrons still have to flow.

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 And the better they flow,

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 the better off customers are.

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 So that was a slightly strange,

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 weird,

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 interesting,

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 learning chapter of my career,

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 but also an important one.

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 But as soon as we managed to agree that agreement,

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 I was looking for my next challenge and I was offered the role of leading energy traders Europe.

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 So I went straight back to a role in Brussels.

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 but actually

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 Went back to the kind of thing I love,

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 which is building and creating the energy market,

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 which I hope involves the UK again.

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 Okay.

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 So I think I've just,

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 I've spoken too much and demonstrated how hard I am.

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 But there we go.

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It's no.

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It's interesting.

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Yeah.

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 You have a wealth of experience,

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 right?

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 Let's say this way.

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 So you've been part of very mysterious conversations and very complex negotiations as well.

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 And that's probably why you bit in the energy trading discussion and organizations,

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 right?

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 It's very often feels like a black box.

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 Mark,

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 can you break it down for us?

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 What do energy traders actually do?

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 And why does it matter for our bills,

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 but also for our climate goals,

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 our system resilience?

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So just a nice small question there.

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 But let me give it a shot.

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 I'm going to start by saying something odd,

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 which is,

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 I think if you went to talk to a marketing person,

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 they'd probably...

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 probably tell you that using the name energy traders is a mistake.

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 Yeah.

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 Because really what we're talking about is risk managers.

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 Now,

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 when you hear the word energy trader,

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 and just as a warning,

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 I ask people this in interviews and it's funny,

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 you hear the word energy trader,

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 and I think what probably enters your head is a kind of Wolf of Wall Street vision of a kind of very high octane cutthroat kind of environment.

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 Yeah,

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 very much Leonardo DiCaprio on steroids,

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 right?

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 Which is very much what I'm not.

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 So that's the image you originally have.

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 But actually,

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 what we're talking about here,

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 I'm sorry to say,

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 is an awful lot more boring.

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 The trading floors are extremely calm,

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 extremely heavily regulated,

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 controlled places,

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 because what you have is very large companies trying to manage their risk.

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 Now,

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 I could say to you,

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 trading is about optimization of this and that and the other,

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 but it doesn't really mean very much.

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 And there is a kind of language that has developed,

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 which is not necessarily the most penetrable to the outside world.

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 I certainly agree with that.

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 But I'm trying to explain maybe a little bit what trading is or does.

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 Now,

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 if you as a customer would like a fixed price contract,

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 which is a perfectly sensible thing to do,

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 I...

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 Think every customer should be able to choose between a floating rate and a fixed rate in a perfect world?

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 Well,

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 somebody is going to have to make sure you get that fixed price energy.

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 And obviously in Europe,

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 the electricity price broadly changes based on the weather.

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 on the gas price broadly changes based on whatever geopolitics is happening in global markets at the moment,

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 sadly.

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 So somebody is going to have to make sure that those variable prices translate into the fixed price that you want.

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 And that's somebody.

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Yeah.

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 And we also have to add that there is this kind of idea that the price of electricity is also determined by the marginal price of gas.

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 So that's another layer of complexity.

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that's also why all those parties need to talk together because it's not electricity on the one hand and renewables on the one hand and gas on the other it's all mixed right no i mean it's part of why i absolutely love this market is that is both the complexity of it and the importance of it so in what i was trying to get out there is to

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 transfer something which is inherently changeable and volatile because of the weather or the politics into something fixed you need somebody who's very good at doing that,

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 who can take that risk and manage it.

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 And that's partly what a trader does.

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 If you want to build a new wind farm,

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 well,

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 you're going to need to go to the bank and get lent some money.

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 Now,

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 you can't go to the bank and say,

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 hey,

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 can you lend me some money?

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 And I'm going to build this project,

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00:11:12.978 --> 00:11:13.619
 which is going to,

267
00:11:13.899 --> 00:11:15.719
 and it'll make money when the wind blows,

268
00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:17.180
 and the rest of the time it'll make no money,

269
00:11:17.400 --> 00:11:18.561
 because the bank will laugh at you.

270
00:11:19.301 --> 00:11:25.564
 You need somebody who can find you a way to transfer that very variable stream of revenue into something fixed.

271
00:11:26.304 --> 00:11:28.905
 And that's a trader through a long-term contract called a PPA.

272
00:11:29.769 --> 00:11:32.851
 And to my kind of favorite part of trading,

273
00:11:32.852 --> 00:11:33.372
 if you like,

274
00:11:33.432 --> 00:11:33.572
 is

275
00:11:34.272 --> 00:11:35.873
 Europe's incredibly diverse.

276
00:11:36.213 --> 00:11:36.554
 You live,

277
00:11:36.934 --> 00:11:37.294
 you're from,

278
00:11:37.314 --> 00:11:37.634
 I think,

279
00:11:38.515 --> 00:11:39.075
 beautiful,

280
00:11:39.236 --> 00:11:39.496
 sunny,

281
00:11:39.656 --> 00:11:40.576
 wonderful France.

282
00:11:40.596 --> 00:11:41.757
 And I'm from horrible,

283
00:11:41.897 --> 00:11:42.258
 rainy,

284
00:11:42.398 --> 00:11:43.038
 wet Britain,

285
00:11:43.118 --> 00:11:43.338
 right?

286
00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:44.019
Yeah,

287
00:11:44.099 --> 00:11:46.821
 but I live in currently extremely wet Italy.

288
00:11:46.961 --> 00:11:47.581
 So yeah,

289
00:11:47.801 --> 00:11:48.222
 that's okay.

290
00:11:48.942 --> 00:11:49.462
That's okay.

291
00:11:50.323 --> 00:11:50.803
 But actually,

292
00:11:51.184 --> 00:11:53.565
 it's that diversity that trading can harness,

293
00:11:53.705 --> 00:11:56.047
 because we've got wires that go across the continent.

294
00:11:56.467 --> 00:11:59.029
 And the job of trading is to get the energy to the where value.

295
00:11:59.285 --> 00:11:59.665
 most.

296
00:12:00.326 --> 00:12:07.871
 And that means you can sell that big shiny vision of Southern Europe being full of sun,

297
00:12:08.812 --> 00:12:13.576
 who knows Morocco even providing a kind of bass street for the rest of Europe.

298
00:12:13.896 --> 00:12:16.958
 Then you've got all of the water in the Alps and Norway.

299
00:12:17.098 --> 00:12:18.119
 You've got the winds of the rain,

300
00:12:18.139 --> 00:12:19.560
 the offshore wind in Britain.

301
00:12:20.161 --> 00:12:21.041
 You can actually,

302
00:12:21.622 --> 00:12:22.462
 through trading,

303
00:12:22.662 --> 00:12:24.364
 strengthen the overall system.

304
00:12:24.924 --> 00:12:25.865
 So trading...

305
00:12:26.541 --> 00:12:28.362
 I'm talking about trading as if it's one thing,

306
00:12:28.382 --> 00:12:30.702
 and traders come in all shapes and sizes.

307
00:12:31.182 --> 00:12:32.623
 People who buy energy,

308
00:12:33.023 --> 00:12:34.323
 manage risk three,

309
00:12:34.463 --> 00:12:35.704
 five years into the future,

310
00:12:36.124 --> 00:12:37.264
 people who trade on the day.

311
00:12:37.704 --> 00:12:47.967
 But what they're fundamentally doing is taking positions in markets in order to minimize the risk that somebody is taking in that market,

312
00:12:48.027 --> 00:12:48.767
 in most cases,

313
00:12:49.187 --> 00:12:50.108
 or in some cases,

314
00:12:50.468 --> 00:12:55.089
 to take risks themselves because they feel they're better able to manage that risk than someone else.

315
00:12:55.369 --> 00:12:58.090
 I have a horrible feeling that explanation makes it no clearer.

316
00:12:58.710 --> 00:13:00.330
 So let's try and do the second bit.

317
00:13:00.690 --> 00:13:00.810
 Well,

318
00:13:00.870 --> 00:13:01.711
 why does it matter?

319
00:13:02.911 --> 00:13:07.832
 If you try to drive the best car in the world without any oil in the engine,

320
00:13:08.172 --> 00:13:10.313
 the car will start performing badly.

321
00:13:10.973 --> 00:13:11.093
 Yeah.

322
00:13:11.373 --> 00:13:13.274
 If you would try another car in our...

323
00:13:13.294 --> 00:13:16.335
 If you were driving along in a car that didn't have any shock absorbers,

324
00:13:16.975 --> 00:13:19.035
 it would be a pretty bumpy ride.

325
00:13:19.075 --> 00:13:19.556
 And actually,

326
00:13:19.776 --> 00:13:23.056
 what traders are doing is they are the oil in that engine.

327
00:13:23.057 --> 00:13:24.997
 They are the shock absorbers in that system.

328
00:13:25.497 --> 00:13:32.903
 That act of constantly trying to manage risk is taking out some of the volatility in the market,

329
00:13:33.124 --> 00:13:33.824
 not all of it,

330
00:13:34.285 --> 00:13:37.487
 and is creating a more stable and more robust system.

331
00:13:38.208 --> 00:13:38.368
 Now,

332
00:13:38.748 --> 00:13:40.150
 last kind of bad analogy.

333
00:13:40.690 --> 00:13:42.311
 I'm a little bit obsessed with bees.

334
00:13:42.471 --> 00:13:43.412
 I like bees a lot.

335
00:13:43.793 --> 00:13:46.115
 And I like the idea of the kind of hive mind,

336
00:13:46.555 --> 00:13:53.521
 the idea that lots of individual people acting in their own interests creates a kind of benefit for the whole.

337
00:13:54.009 --> 00:13:56.190
 And I think that's very much what trading is doing.

338
00:13:56.430 --> 00:13:57.531
 You look at that energy crisis,

339
00:13:57.571 --> 00:13:57.731
 right?

340
00:13:57.891 --> 00:13:59.712
 We're not going to get any gas from Russia anymore.

341
00:14:00.192 --> 00:14:07.997
 Everybody who's relying on getting gas from Russia has the strongest incentive you can imagine to go and find some more gas.

342
00:14:08.617 --> 00:14:12.759
 They zoom out and they find whatever gas they can as quickly as possible,

343
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:15.120
 far before any political response.

344
00:14:15.561 --> 00:14:17.342
 That's that hive mind at play.

345
00:14:17.702 --> 00:14:21.644
 And what that does is creates you a much stronger overall system.

346
00:14:22.144 --> 00:14:23.225
 So trading is...

347
00:14:23.565 --> 00:14:25.706
 in its own difficult to penetrate way,

348
00:14:26.146 --> 00:14:28.266
 holding the European energy system together.

349
00:14:29.127 --> 00:14:29.307
Okay,

350
00:14:29.447 --> 00:14:29.967
 so yeah,

351
00:14:30.147 --> 00:14:35.008
 it's really the heavy lifter that actually make ensure that we are,

352
00:14:36.669 --> 00:14:45.751
 our system gets balanced in a way that we can still have a predict the amount of our electricity bill or gas bill and don't have so many big surprise.

353
00:14:45.791 --> 00:14:53.013
 But you also mentioned the energy crisis of 2021 and you guys came into the spotlight.

354
00:14:53.593 --> 00:14:58.387
 that time also because of the kind of profits of some companies and

355
00:14:58.843 --> 00:15:03.986
 That kind of puts also a very bad image on something that was already mysterious,

356
00:15:04.046 --> 00:15:04.246
 right?

357
00:15:05.627 --> 00:15:07.028
I think that's probably fair to say.

358
00:15:07.408 --> 00:15:08.829
 So before I take that one,

359
00:15:08.830 --> 00:15:10.209
 I'm going to mention your last one.

360
00:15:10.410 --> 00:15:13.191
 I'd love to say we're the most important parts of the system.

361
00:15:13.431 --> 00:15:13.852
 We're not.

362
00:15:14.652 --> 00:15:16.273
 The thing about this is it's a system.

363
00:15:16.773 --> 00:15:20.595
 And what's important is actually that everybody plays a different part.

364
00:15:21.076 --> 00:15:24.037
 So it's the generators,

365
00:15:24.177 --> 00:15:24.958
 the customers,

366
00:15:25.178 --> 00:15:26.098
 the grid companies,

367
00:15:26.199 --> 00:15:26.839
 big and small.

368
00:15:27.699 --> 00:15:28.519
 the regulators,

369
00:15:28.560 --> 00:15:29.260
 the governments.

370
00:15:30.040 --> 00:15:31.001
 Sometimes in energy,

371
00:15:31.061 --> 00:15:34.723
 we get into this habit of saying the solution is X or the key thing to do is Y.

372
00:15:34.763 --> 00:15:35.563
 It's not.

373
00:15:36.004 --> 00:15:39.165
 It's to get all of those people around the table to try and fix it.

374
00:15:39.606 --> 00:15:40.026
 But anyway,

375
00:15:40.106 --> 00:15:41.066
 to the energy crisis.

376
00:15:42.007 --> 00:15:44.568
 It's funny how people think it started with Russia,

377
00:15:45.209 --> 00:15:45.869
 because actually,

378
00:15:46.689 --> 00:15:50.251
 I joined Energy Traders Europe smack bang in the middle of COVID.

379
00:15:50.852 --> 00:15:52.773
 Wasn't allowed to meet my team for a while.

380
00:15:53.273 --> 00:15:54.134
 And during COVID,

381
00:15:54.135 --> 00:15:56.535
 there was no volatility in prices.

382
00:15:57.567 --> 00:16:01.049
 And they were at the lowest level in living memory,

383
00:16:01.349 --> 00:16:03.450
as you probably expect.

384
00:16:03.650 --> 00:16:04.971
So actually,

385
00:16:05.011 --> 00:16:05.812
 and in that world,

386
00:16:07.072 --> 00:16:08.413
 people weren't making any profits,

387
00:16:08.773 --> 00:16:13.576
 but they were still managing an incredibly complicated situation that people hadn't been seen before.

388
00:16:13.996 --> 00:16:16.678
 Then there was the Russian invasion of Ukraine,

389
00:16:16.918 --> 00:16:17.758
 somewhere I used to live,

390
00:16:17.898 --> 00:16:19.359
 so it's pretty terrible.

391
00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:23.501
 And that had a really fundamental effect on energy markets.

392
00:16:23.942 --> 00:16:26.083
 And then what you have to do is...

393
00:16:26.243 --> 00:16:29.004
 find a way to replace that energy.

394
00:16:29.985 --> 00:16:30.105
 Now,

395
00:16:30.145 --> 00:16:33.626
 that means finding alternative sources of gas or reducing demand.

396
00:16:34.246 --> 00:16:36.867
 That's incredibly difficult in a global market.

397
00:16:38.228 --> 00:16:45.051
 And I think the narrative that's developed is almost 180 degrees wrong.

398
00:16:45.891 --> 00:16:46.011
 Oh,

399
00:16:46.031 --> 00:16:46.231
 wow.

400
00:16:47.011 --> 00:16:55.775
 If you have a system which can wean itself off its biggest supplier without any interruptions to supply,

401
00:16:55.776 --> 00:16:55.895
 Bye.

402
00:16:57.111 --> 00:17:02.154
 On the back of the lowest levels of price and volatility in living memory,

403
00:17:02.914 --> 00:17:08.197
 I think you've just tested that system to breaking point in a way no stress test could ever have done.

404
00:17:08.377 --> 00:17:11.299
 And I think it tells you you've got a pretty amazing system.

405
00:17:12.159 --> 00:17:12.319
 Now,

406
00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:15.721
 that doesn't mean the outcomes it produces are perfect for customers.

407
00:17:16.282 --> 00:17:21.264
 But the role of a market is to make sure you're optimizing demand and supply.

408
00:17:22.085 --> 00:17:25.927
 So those prices you saw said anyone who can reduce demand

409
00:17:26.371 --> 00:17:27.392
 should reduce demand,

410
00:17:27.772 --> 00:17:30.815
 and anyone who can increase supply should send it to Europe,

411
00:17:32.036 --> 00:17:34.818
 which is exactly the signal you want people to be sending.

412
00:17:35.579 --> 00:17:35.699
 Now,

413
00:17:35.799 --> 00:17:38.141
 there's a job for policymakers to be saying,

414
00:17:38.661 --> 00:17:40.883
 what are the consequences of those prices?

415
00:17:41.023 --> 00:17:42.204
 Who do we need to help?

416
00:17:42.825 --> 00:17:45.086
 But you can't say the price is high,

417
00:17:45.607 --> 00:17:46.868
 therefore there's a problem,

418
00:17:47.448 --> 00:17:53.033
 when quite clearly you are competing globally for an incredibly scarce commodity.

419
00:17:53.654 --> 00:17:55.275
 And that's what a price signal does.

420
00:17:55.823 --> 00:17:55.943
 So

421
00:17:56.603 --> 00:18:00.285
 I feel like those two energy crisis,

422
00:18:00.386 --> 00:18:01.426
 if I can call them that,

423
00:18:02.006 --> 00:18:05.808
 really just showed how robust the market we have is.

424
00:18:06.469 --> 00:18:06.969
 And therefore,

425
00:18:07.329 --> 00:18:10.231
 my argument is don't look back and try and say,

426
00:18:10.311 --> 00:18:10.531
 well,

427
00:18:10.651 --> 00:18:11.892
 what should we have done differently?

428
00:18:12.352 --> 00:18:13.292
 Look forward and say,

429
00:18:13.413 --> 00:18:15.634
 given these foundations are so solid,

430
00:18:16.314 --> 00:18:22.938
 let's build from them and actually make it even more effective so we can mitigate the effect of the next crisis.

431
00:18:23.738 --> 00:18:23.878
 Now,

432
00:18:24.138 --> 00:18:25.279
 did traders make a lot of money?

433
00:18:25.555 --> 00:18:26.155
 The good ones did.

434
00:18:26.876 --> 00:18:28.096
 Why did they make a lot of money?

435
00:18:28.676 --> 00:18:32.738
 Because they were managing incredibly large amounts of risk.

436
00:18:33.498 --> 00:18:34.539
 And frankly,

437
00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:37.340
 that's sort of how most markets work.

438
00:18:38.040 --> 00:18:38.361
 And so

439
00:18:39.341 --> 00:18:42.302
 I don't think we should apologize for that or be worried about that.

440
00:18:42.362 --> 00:18:45.003
 They paid fundamentally huge amounts of tax as well.

441
00:18:45.223 --> 00:18:45.343
 So

442
00:18:46.224 --> 00:18:48.205
 I find some of the energy discourse a bit difficult.

443
00:18:48.206 --> 00:18:48.445
 You should,

444
00:18:48.446 --> 00:18:48.885
 of course,

445
00:18:48.925 --> 00:18:50.066
 learn lessons,

446
00:18:50.366 --> 00:18:53.307
 but you should also recognize that this is the

447
00:18:53.847 --> 00:18:56.748
 largest and best performing energy market on the planet.

448
00:18:56.908 --> 00:18:57.868
 It's quite a statement,

449
00:18:58.028 --> 00:18:59.068
 but I think a true one.

450
00:18:59.069 --> 00:19:00.029
Yeah,

451
00:19:00.189 --> 00:19:02.109
 that's really interesting how,

452
00:19:02.729 --> 00:19:03.010
 let's say,

453
00:19:03.030 --> 00:19:06.430
 the mainstream narrative pits energy markets against the public interest.

454
00:19:07.131 --> 00:19:12.532
 But what you argue is that well-functioning markets actually enable competition and security,

455
00:19:13.152 --> 00:19:13.672
 and in a way,

456
00:19:13.912 --> 00:19:15.093
 also decarbonization.

457
00:19:15.293 --> 00:19:17.833
 Could you elaborate a little bit on energy traders'

458
00:19:17.934 --> 00:19:19.254
 role in addressing,

459
00:19:19.734 --> 00:19:23.215
 in helping decarbonization of the energy systems?

460
00:19:24.263 --> 00:19:25.243
I can certainly try.

461
00:19:25.363 --> 00:19:30.486
 So the best thing I'll say is I was a regulator for about nine years of my career.

462
00:19:31.166 --> 00:19:35.748
 I argue for nothing different now than I argued for when I was an energy regulator,

463
00:19:36.568 --> 00:19:39.109
 which is an interesting kind of comparison.

464
00:19:39.929 --> 00:19:41.610
 Maybe my members won't like that comment,

465
00:19:41.650 --> 00:19:43.911
 but I think it's fundamentally true.

466
00:19:44.271 --> 00:19:47.753
 And if you look at the party I think we're most aligned with in all of Europe,

467
00:19:47.913 --> 00:19:49.874
 which I think is the European energy regulator,

468
00:19:50.014 --> 00:19:50.374
 larger,

469
00:19:50.694 --> 00:19:53.335
 better functioning markets are the best way.

470
00:19:53.536 --> 00:19:54.562
 to protect customers.

471
00:19:55.125 --> 00:19:57.520
 Now to the Pacer and decarbonization.

472
00:19:58.784 --> 00:20:00.125
 I don't want to overstate the case.

473
00:20:00.705 --> 00:20:02.647
 What traders will do is optimize anything.

474
00:20:03.367 --> 00:20:04.808
 If you produce a load of coal,

475
00:20:04.888 --> 00:20:06.189
 they will optimize coal plant.

476
00:20:06.249 --> 00:20:07.590
 If you produce a load of wind,

477
00:20:07.591 --> 00:20:08.451
 you will optimize wind.

478
00:20:09.172 --> 00:20:10.052
 But actually,

479
00:20:10.753 --> 00:20:13.475
 in a very heavily renewable system,

480
00:20:13.555 --> 00:20:17.678
 trading gets even more important because you have an awful lot of volatility.

481
00:20:18.398 --> 00:20:26.304
 You have lots of periods where you don't have abundant supplies of renewable energy and you have to make sure that you are balancing out that energy.

482
00:20:26.824 --> 00:20:31.288
 You also need to make investors want to invest in those energy sources,

483
00:20:31.628 --> 00:20:38.955
 which is where there's long-term contracts like PPAs come into play to enable them to finance their activities.

484
00:20:39.575 --> 00:20:42.117
 So what trading is doing is in the long run,

485
00:20:42.338 --> 00:20:42.998
 it's helping investment.

486
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:44.479
 In the shorter term,

487
00:20:45.020 --> 00:20:54.208
 it's optimizing the volatility of the wind and hopefully it's creating a system which tells you where you should be locating that wind.

488
00:20:54.548 --> 00:21:11.417
 to minimize the cost to the overall system as well so i think it's hugely important for both decarbonization and for least cost decarbonization we can decarbonize through lots of bespoke generous national support systems but

489
00:21:11.437 --> 00:21:23.564
 at some point we'll run out of money and that will create a backlash against the very thing we're trying to deliver which i don't think is a good thing so actually harnessing i'm gonna say the power of markets i think that's fair but

490
00:21:23.996 --> 00:21:24.376
 Hardest thing,

491
00:21:24.377 --> 00:21:28.639
 the power of markets to deliver decarbonization has to be a good idea.

492
00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.961
 And if I can go a bit visionary for a minute,

493
00:21:31.782 --> 00:21:35.424
 like I told you I lived in a wet and windy island.

494
00:21:36.085 --> 00:21:38.106
 The kind of thing that fascinates me,

495
00:21:38.546 --> 00:21:41.028
 sort of what I would like to have achieved when I grow up,

496
00:21:41.769 --> 00:21:46.612
 is actually have made the North Sea a bit of an integrated energy hub,

497
00:21:46.792 --> 00:21:47.012
 right?

498
00:21:47.973 --> 00:21:52.136
 We're supposed to get 300 gigawatts of wind in the North Sea if we're going to decarbonize.

499
00:21:52.564 --> 00:21:53.945
 So if Britain's going to hit its targets,

500
00:21:53.965 --> 00:21:55.306
 if Europe's going to hit its targets,

501
00:21:55.886 --> 00:21:57.608
 we're going to have to put a load of wind off shop.

502
00:21:59.008 --> 00:22:02.291
 We can't keep driving on different sides of the road.

503
00:22:03.311 --> 00:22:08.875
 We have to find a way of creating a system where that happens in a joined up way.

504
00:22:09.155 --> 00:22:10.737
 And that's not happening today.

505
00:22:11.197 --> 00:22:11.457
 And that,

506
00:22:11.497 --> 00:22:11.757
 for me,

507
00:22:12.618 --> 00:22:15.100
 is why the European energy market is so important,

508
00:22:15.120 --> 00:22:15.320
 right?

509
00:22:15.600 --> 00:22:19.463
 If we can find a single set of rules that mean people plan,

510
00:22:19.843 --> 00:22:20.303
 operate,

511
00:22:20.503 --> 00:22:21.324
 act together,

512
00:22:21.872 --> 00:22:22.913
 we all benefit.

513
00:22:23.193 --> 00:22:23.713
 And that for me,

514
00:22:23.793 --> 00:22:25.935
 the challenge of the next one,

515
00:22:26.015 --> 00:22:26.135
 two,

516
00:22:26.295 --> 00:22:26.535
 three,

517
00:22:26.655 --> 00:22:27.016
 five,

518
00:22:27.196 --> 00:22:27.816
 ten years,

519
00:22:27.916 --> 00:22:31.038
 because we're not going to get to net zero without doing that.

520
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:33.860
 So there's lots and lots of small,

521
00:22:33.940 --> 00:22:34.961
 short-term things that help.

522
00:22:35.301 --> 00:22:35.822
 But actually,

523
00:22:35.962 --> 00:22:36.602
 fundamentally,

524
00:22:37.082 --> 00:22:41.706
 Europe's not meeting its targets without finding the rules and the trading structures together.

525
00:22:42.846 --> 00:22:43.006
Yeah.

526
00:22:43.507 --> 00:22:46.109
 So it's what you suggest is that

527
00:22:46.449 --> 00:22:50.992
 Europe's role should be to kind of set the role of climate capitalism.

528
00:22:51.632 --> 00:22:51.892
 Which,

529
00:22:52.093 --> 00:22:53.053
 I mean,

530
00:22:54.275 --> 00:22:55.035
 for certain people,

531
00:22:55.115 --> 00:22:56.296
 certain organizations,

532
00:22:56.376 --> 00:22:57.437
 climate and capitalism,

533
00:22:57.597 --> 00:22:59.059
 they shouldn't even talk.

534
00:22:59.139 --> 00:23:00.380
 It's two different things.

535
00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:01.461
 But for other people,

536
00:23:02.001 --> 00:23:02.622
 including you,

537
00:23:02.902 --> 00:23:10.288
 there has to be a way to actually optimize the system so that it benefits us all.

538
00:23:10.869 --> 00:23:15.373
 And we set the right rules that put us in the direction that is needed for the planet and for people.

539
00:23:15.413 --> 00:23:18.736
 So I think it's really interesting because it really also...

540
00:23:19.228 --> 00:23:24.630
 kind of sets the scene and explains why we also keep on needing this instrument.

541
00:23:25.130 --> 00:23:27.350
 Even if we go full stream with,

542
00:23:27.351 --> 00:23:27.670
 I don't know,

543
00:23:28.031 --> 00:23:30.411
 energy communities or local energy production,

544
00:23:30.451 --> 00:23:30.571
 etc.,

545
00:23:30.991 --> 00:23:33.872
 we also need those kind of big rules,

546
00:23:34.072 --> 00:23:34.732
 big game,

547
00:23:34.892 --> 00:23:41.814
 because that's how necessary energy is and how essential it is at all levels.

548
00:23:41.854 --> 00:23:44.495
 It's not only for our own household consumption,

549
00:23:44.555 --> 00:23:46.016
 but it's also for cities,

550
00:23:46.036 --> 00:23:46.816
 for an industry,

551
00:23:46.836 --> 00:23:47.196
 et cetera.

552
00:23:47.844 --> 00:23:54.167
 And now that we are going into this kind of full speed industrial revival of the EU,

553
00:23:54.367 --> 00:23:57.669
 also giving like the international geopolitical context,

554
00:23:57.729 --> 00:23:57.869
 etc.

555
00:23:58.629 --> 00:24:08.734
 It's more needed than ever to have a kind of very transparent and level playing field to really boost the opportunities that are there,

556
00:24:08.834 --> 00:24:09.034
 right?

557
00:24:09.694 --> 00:24:10.315
Couldn't agree more.

558
00:24:10.316 --> 00:24:11.495
 Let me pull three things out.

559
00:24:12.236 --> 00:24:13.076
 So the first thing is...

560
00:24:13.256 --> 00:24:17.617
 There's this kind of view that trading's in some way unregulated or unfettered or something,

561
00:24:17.657 --> 00:24:17.817
 right?

562
00:24:17.957 --> 00:24:20.618
 If I stacked up the number of EU rules,

563
00:24:20.998 --> 00:24:23.659
 it would be taller and wider than me.

564
00:24:24.179 --> 00:24:27.760
 This is one of the most kind of regulated markets you can dream of.

565
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.221
 Yet people seem to have that perception that isn't the case.

566
00:24:32.041 --> 00:24:32.681
 Second thing is,

567
00:24:32.801 --> 00:24:34.642
 I used to be a bit of a market fundamentalist.

568
00:24:34.662 --> 00:24:35.022
 I was like,

569
00:24:35.062 --> 00:24:37.143
 get governments out and markets will deliver.

570
00:24:38.703 --> 00:24:41.764
 You're talking about finding the means to deliver the policy.

571
00:24:42.436 --> 00:24:45.078
 No one's saying the market should determine what the outcome is.

572
00:24:45.579 --> 00:24:49.382
 We've legislated in Europe to get to net zero.

573
00:24:50.243 --> 00:24:50.944
 So the question is,

574
00:24:51.004 --> 00:24:53.746
 how do we get there as quickly and as cheaply as possible?

575
00:24:54.647 --> 00:24:54.847
 And

576
00:24:55.248 --> 00:24:56.068
 I could do a big,

577
00:24:56.369 --> 00:24:57.970
 tedious kind of historic...

578
00:24:58.918 --> 00:25:01.679
 The Roman Empire existed because of trade.

579
00:25:01.959 --> 00:25:05.061
 The Hanseatic League existed because of trade.

580
00:25:05.561 --> 00:25:08.202
 Europe exists because of trade.

581
00:25:08.702 --> 00:25:13.184
 Within carefully structured and carefully regulated environments to get to the things we want.

582
00:25:13.304 --> 00:25:20.987
 So I don't think there's a choice or dichotomy between kind of the state and the market.

583
00:25:21.047 --> 00:25:23.328
 The market needs to work to deliver the state goals.

584
00:25:23.608 --> 00:25:25.689
 And then to your point about energy communities and so on,

585
00:25:26.389 --> 00:25:27.850
 this is back to my point.

586
00:25:28.614 --> 00:25:30.396
 I think I tried to make badly earlier,

587
00:25:30.496 --> 00:25:33.538
 which is there is so much to do.

588
00:25:34.619 --> 00:25:37.782
 I go to events and the nuclear lobby stands up and says,

589
00:25:38.182 --> 00:25:39.364
 we should just do nuclear.

590
00:25:40.184 --> 00:25:41.906
 And the energy community folks say,

591
00:25:42.206 --> 00:25:44.428
 this has all got to be solvable by energy community.

592
00:25:45.609 --> 00:25:46.169
 It isn't.

593
00:25:47.831 --> 00:25:49.252
 It's everything.

594
00:25:50.113 --> 00:25:51.534
 It's the huge stuff,

595
00:25:52.275 --> 00:25:54.056
 massive cross-border power lines.

596
00:25:54.577 --> 00:25:55.778
 It's the local stuff.

597
00:25:56.398 --> 00:25:57.879
 getting communities engaged,

598
00:25:57.959 --> 00:26:00.320
 making your distribution grids more flexible.

599
00:26:01.180 --> 00:26:02.080
 It's policymakers,

600
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:03.281
 national and European,

601
00:26:04.221 --> 00:26:06.362
 and it's bringing them all together in a,

602
00:26:06.622 --> 00:26:07.803
 I was going to say a dialogue,

603
00:26:07.903 --> 00:26:10.624
 but a dialogue that doesn't take too long.

604
00:26:10.864 --> 00:26:14.966
 Because the system is fundamentally transforming.

605
00:26:14.967 --> 00:26:15.906
 It's very easy to say,

606
00:26:15.907 --> 00:26:17.286
 it's hard to actually conceive.

607
00:26:17.727 --> 00:26:20.128
 But probably the reason I got into energy,

608
00:26:20.268 --> 00:26:21.028
 stupid story,

609
00:26:21.048 --> 00:26:24.970
 is I went on a school trip when I was eight to Didcot Power Station,

610
00:26:24.971 --> 00:26:26.030
 which is near where I'm from.

611
00:26:26.730 --> 00:26:28.251
 Huge coal-fired power station.

612
00:26:28.751 --> 00:26:30.132
 And they gave me a free hard hat.

613
00:26:31.033 --> 00:26:31.954
 But in that world,

614
00:26:32.714 --> 00:26:35.836
 demand was flat and generation moved.

615
00:26:36.196 --> 00:26:38.218
 And you just turned it up and down like you're having.

616
00:26:39.158 --> 00:26:39.479
 Today,

617
00:26:40.760 --> 00:26:42.641
 it's completely the opposite.

618
00:26:44.102 --> 00:26:47.304
 Generation doesn't move and you move customers up and down.

619
00:26:47.864 --> 00:26:49.986
 Or you need to be able to move customers up and down.

620
00:26:50.486 --> 00:26:51.187
 And to get there,

621
00:26:51.787 --> 00:26:52.507
 it's everything.

622
00:26:53.408 --> 00:26:54.349
 It's smart metering.

623
00:26:54.549 --> 00:26:55.189
 It's AI.

624
00:26:55.510 --> 00:26:55.970
 It's tech.

625
00:26:56.562 --> 00:26:57.162
 It's grids.

626
00:26:57.623 --> 00:26:59.243
 It's all of these things.

627
00:26:59.443 --> 00:27:04.365
 So the scale of change the energy sector needs is absolutely overwhelming.

628
00:27:05.106 --> 00:27:07.286
 But I would argue the scale,

629
00:27:07.347 --> 00:27:10.488
 the level of debate doesn't reflect.

630
00:27:11.008 --> 00:27:12.509
 It's actually pretty immature.

631
00:27:13.189 --> 00:27:14.569
 It's should we choose A or B?

632
00:27:15.290 --> 00:27:17.010
 And it's very much driven by this,

633
00:27:17.291 --> 00:27:17.411
 oh,

634
00:27:17.431 --> 00:27:18.111
 there's a problem.

635
00:27:18.131 --> 00:27:19.712
 We must be seen to be acting.

636
00:27:19.772 --> 00:27:22.493
 You don't achieve transformational,

637
00:27:23.713 --> 00:27:25.374
 hopefully planet-saving

638
00:27:25.790 --> 00:27:29.832
 important stuff with a series of knee-jerk short-term measures.

639
00:27:30.132 --> 00:27:32.414
 So I'm sounding like I'm a ranty old man now.

640
00:27:32.754 --> 00:27:35.696
 I think if anyone tells you they know how to do this transition,

641
00:27:35.756 --> 00:27:36.776
 they're probably lying.

642
00:27:37.777 --> 00:27:41.379
 So what we need to do is get people from all of those things around the table,

643
00:27:41.819 --> 00:27:43.360
 get into a mindset of and,

644
00:27:43.980 --> 00:27:45.281
 not a mindset of or,

645
00:27:45.381 --> 00:27:45.541
 or,

646
00:27:45.621 --> 00:27:45.781
 or,

647
00:27:45.841 --> 00:27:46.001
 or.

648
00:27:46.722 --> 00:27:49.543
 And where we've got something that works pretty well,

649
00:27:50.404 --> 00:27:54.386
 use that as the foundation rather than trying to reinvent wheels.

650
00:27:54.866 --> 00:27:56.987
 Because that's enough stuff we do need to reinvent.

651
00:27:57.848 --> 00:27:58.048
Yeah,

652
00:27:58.208 --> 00:28:00.730
 that's also exactly the purpose of this podcast,

653
00:28:01.050 --> 00:28:01.250
 right?

654
00:28:01.330 --> 00:28:04.392
 To make sure that we hear about all the solutions.

655
00:28:04.412 --> 00:28:08.314
 And what you just said about moving customers and their demand,

656
00:28:08.354 --> 00:28:08.474
 etc.

657
00:28:08.755 --> 00:28:14.058
 We had a very insightful conversation a few episodes ago with Olivia Sikoranyi from SimPower.

658
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:16.820
 That was really enlightening.

659
00:28:16.980 --> 00:28:18.601
 And she was saying exactly the same thing.

660
00:28:19.041 --> 00:28:20.522
 Her team was going.

661
00:28:21.102 --> 00:28:35.892
 to talk to industrial users and they didn't even know that they could actually save money or earn money if you want by shifting their electricity usage and have this kind of spider on the web doing the work for them.

662
00:28:35.952 --> 00:28:49.701
 So it's really a combination of everything and as I said there is the conversation about like perhaps a high transmission line and really high voltage electricity and also the low voltage and also what do you do when there is no wind,

663
00:28:49.801 --> 00:28:50.742
 when there is no son

664
00:28:50.942 --> 00:28:51.943
 this kind of very,

665
00:28:52.203 --> 00:28:53.244
 there is a name for this,

666
00:28:53.264 --> 00:28:54.905
 a German name for this kind of days.

667
00:28:55.445 --> 00:28:56.486
Dunkelflaute.

668
00:28:57.147 --> 00:28:57.307
Yeah,

669
00:28:57.407 --> 00:28:58.127
 Dunkelflaute.

670
00:28:58.428 --> 00:28:58.548
 Yeah,

671
00:28:58.608 --> 00:29:00.669
 my German accent is very poor.

672
00:29:00.890 --> 00:29:01.830
 Apologies for that.

673
00:29:02.471 --> 00:29:02.631
 Yeah,

674
00:29:02.771 --> 00:29:06.274
 but that's very much like the combination of everything that is needed.

675
00:29:06.294 --> 00:29:13.319
 And what's really interesting is that since you've also worked in all those different organizations of GEMS here,

676
00:29:13.399 --> 00:29:13.679
 ACR,

677
00:29:13.719 --> 00:29:14.099
 etc.,

678
00:29:14.500 --> 00:29:17.222
 you have been able to see all those kind of things.

679
00:29:17.910 --> 00:29:24.374
 Let's get back to a point that really strikes me that it's super male-dominated.

680
00:29:24.814 --> 00:29:29.436
 There seems to be quite a lot of masculine energy turning around.

681
00:29:29.676 --> 00:29:33.939
 And we mentioned Leonardo DiCaprio on steroids with the fast-paced,

682
00:29:33.979 --> 00:29:34.599
 money-driven,

683
00:29:34.719 --> 00:29:35.780
 high-stakes hedge drops.

684
00:29:36.940 --> 00:29:37.120
 Well,

685
00:29:37.401 --> 00:29:38.921
 you said that it's untrue.

686
00:29:39.061 --> 00:29:40.562
 It's a very boring,

687
00:29:40.702 --> 00:29:41.103
 let's say,

688
00:29:41.343 --> 00:29:42.543
 mom-and-dad shop,

689
00:29:42.803 --> 00:29:43.204
 in a way,

690
00:29:43.784 --> 00:29:44.504
 instead of,

691
00:29:45.125 --> 00:29:45.385
 again,

692
00:29:45.705 --> 00:29:47.166
 Leonardo DiCaprio on the trading floor.

693
00:29:47.790 --> 00:29:55.346
 So what are the kind of excuses you have heard for being like energy trading,

694
00:29:55.406 --> 00:29:57.270
 being such a masculine concept?

695
00:29:58.430 --> 00:30:03.232
So I hope I didn't say it was boring because that's going to get me in trouble with all of our 175 men.

696
00:30:03.692 --> 00:30:06.193
Boring can be judged.

697
00:30:06.194 --> 00:30:06.994
 It's predictable.

698
00:30:07.254 --> 00:30:07.734
 It's safe.

699
00:30:08.434 --> 00:30:12.676
I'm glad you used the word excuses because I think they're that.

700
00:30:13.096 --> 00:30:13.936
 Because in many ways,

701
00:30:13.976 --> 00:30:22.060
 energy trading is incredibly equalitarian because you are fundamentally judged on performance.

702
00:30:22.280 --> 00:30:22.840
 And actually,

703
00:30:23.120 --> 00:30:27.262
 it's very easy to measure performance because you can see what...

704
00:30:27.922 --> 00:30:29.683
 You can see the results of trades.

705
00:30:29.823 --> 00:30:35.805
 So there is no reason why biases should be creeping in,

706
00:30:35.965 --> 00:30:36.526
 but they do.

707
00:30:36.726 --> 00:30:40.247
 And the excuses I've heard have been shift work,

708
00:30:40.968 --> 00:30:42.548
 lack of backgrounds in science,

709
00:30:42.568 --> 00:30:43.088
 technology,

710
00:30:43.168 --> 00:30:43.869
 education and maths.

711
00:30:43.929 --> 00:30:45.569
 But when we're talking about diversity,

712
00:30:45.609 --> 00:30:46.650
 it isn't just gender.

713
00:30:46.810 --> 00:30:47.950
 There's also,

714
00:30:48.031 --> 00:30:48.371
 I think,

715
00:30:48.372 --> 00:30:49.731
 a background thing going on.

716
00:30:50.432 --> 00:30:56.074
 I'm not sure that huge numbers of people from relatively...

717
00:30:56.394 --> 00:30:58.996
 less well-off backgrounds get into energy trading.

718
00:30:59.556 --> 00:31:01.357
 I'm not sure that many people,

719
00:31:01.497 --> 00:31:02.658
 relatively speaking,

720
00:31:02.958 --> 00:31:06.580
 from the eastern and central parts of Europe get into energy trading.

721
00:31:06.600 --> 00:31:08.581
 So I think there's a lot of biases at play.

722
00:31:09.482 --> 00:31:10.102
 I'm not sure

723
00:31:10.442 --> 00:31:11.803
 I quite know the reasons.

724
00:31:12.483 --> 00:31:15.925
 I would like to think that the companies who aren't acting on that,

725
00:31:16.005 --> 00:31:21.088
 and I should stress quite how actively most companies are trying to tackle that,

726
00:31:21.368 --> 00:31:24.010
 I'd like to think the companies that aren't are doing least well.

727
00:31:24.710 --> 00:31:28.393
 or at least are having a harder time because actually

728
00:31:29.454 --> 00:31:32.877
 I can't think of a reason that justifies it.

729
00:31:33.517 --> 00:31:34.078
 But equally,

730
00:31:34.098 --> 00:31:39.382
 I can't tell you your points entirely wrong because you and I did have a conversation at the eWorld conference in Essen,

731
00:31:40.082 --> 00:31:40.363
 which,

732
00:31:40.623 --> 00:31:44.366
 and I don't think either of us particularly enjoyed the atmosphere that was going on there.

733
00:31:44.966 --> 00:31:45.567
Yeah,

734
00:31:45.627 --> 00:31:47.909
 it's represented of men and yeah,

735
00:31:48.009 --> 00:31:52.753
 I was one of the handful of women on the stages at the time,

736
00:31:52.893 --> 00:31:53.433
 right?

737
00:31:53.434 --> 00:31:53.573
 Yeah.

738
00:31:53.574 --> 00:31:53.693
 Yep.

739
00:31:54.094 --> 00:31:54.214
So.

740
00:31:54.822 --> 00:31:56.163
 I'm afraid my answer is slightly,

741
00:31:57.183 --> 00:31:59.505
 I don't know whether I'm pleased people are tackling it,

742
00:32:00.005 --> 00:32:04.368
 but I guess my job as CEO of an association is to make sure we're doing our part in it.

743
00:32:04.608 --> 00:32:07.289
 So at the risk of sounding like I'm making excuses,

744
00:32:07.810 --> 00:32:09.091
 immediately after this call,

745
00:32:09.171 --> 00:32:10.591
 I shall be on the phone to my chair,

746
00:32:11.232 --> 00:32:12.172
 Zepina from Shell,

747
00:32:12.292 --> 00:32:13.513
 who is female,

748
00:32:13.593 --> 00:32:15.394
 and we have a board which is equal.

749
00:32:15.935 --> 00:32:19.036
 My management team in the secretariat is three and three.

750
00:32:19.277 --> 00:32:20.797
 I run the association with Barber,

751
00:32:20.938 --> 00:32:21.718
 I'll see you later.

752
00:32:21.978 --> 00:32:22.778
 And we are 100%

753
00:32:23.158 --> 00:32:24.879
 gender balanced down our secretariat.

754
00:32:25.299 --> 00:32:26.519
 Not because we're trying to be,

755
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:31.501
 but because actually the best people come through all sorts of backgrounds.

756
00:32:31.921 --> 00:32:32.441
 Backgrounds,

757
00:32:32.541 --> 00:32:33.061
 genders,

758
00:32:33.341 --> 00:32:34.361
 sexualities,

759
00:32:34.622 --> 00:32:35.022
 colours,

760
00:32:35.162 --> 00:32:36.222
 creeds and the rest of it.

761
00:32:36.223 --> 00:32:39.723
So need to market approach.

762
00:32:39.763 --> 00:32:41.663
I'd like to think we're taking a market approach,

763
00:32:42.144 --> 00:32:42.624
 but equally,

764
00:32:42.644 --> 00:32:47.365
 I'm not going to understate the power of biases in perpetuating some of these things.

765
00:32:47.825 --> 00:32:50.846
 The other point I should maybe make is that trading is changing.

766
00:32:51.086 --> 00:32:52.287
 incredibly fast.

767
00:32:52.588 --> 00:32:55.510
 The number of people who are getting into it,

768
00:32:55.511 --> 00:32:57.332
 the size of firm is changing.

769
00:32:58.293 --> 00:33:03.338
 You've got huge numbers of people doing algorithmic trading now.

770
00:33:03.758 --> 00:33:05.339
 Business models are really changing.

771
00:33:05.760 --> 00:33:09.683
 And I think that will challenge some of the status quo,

772
00:33:10.064 --> 00:33:16.390
 perhaps some of the embedded biases or preconceptions that perhaps have driven this.

773
00:33:16.746 --> 00:33:20.348
 I think what you're prompting me to do is to find a better answer to this question,

774
00:33:20.349 --> 00:33:22.009
 because I don't think I know,

775
00:33:22.229 --> 00:33:24.470
 I don't think I quite like this response.

776
00:33:24.810 --> 00:33:25.111
 Barine,

777
00:33:25.112 --> 00:33:25.851
 what would you say?

778
00:33:27.352 --> 00:33:27.572
Well,

779
00:33:27.832 --> 00:33:32.835
I would say that it's complex and there are inequalities at many different levels.

780
00:33:33.115 --> 00:33:36.817
 And it's not only when arriving on the job market,

781
00:33:36.917 --> 00:33:42.080
 but it's also like way before in the education and the kind of opportunities that are presented.

782
00:33:42.140 --> 00:33:45.581
 So it's also about making,

783
00:33:45.922 --> 00:33:46.242
 let's say,

784
00:33:46.702 --> 00:33:49.863
 Education on economics and finance,

785
00:33:50.023 --> 00:33:53.545
 attractive sector in general is extremely gender imbalanced.

786
00:33:53.605 --> 00:33:55.826
 Like there is like only 22%

787
00:33:56.126 --> 00:33:57.687
 of women in the sector,

788
00:33:58.187 --> 00:33:59.868
 even less in positions of power.

789
00:34:00.228 --> 00:34:03.029
 And it's already quite a challenge out there.

790
00:34:03.649 --> 00:34:05.670
 Then it's also about the working conditions.

791
00:34:06.210 --> 00:34:07.671
 You mentioned eWorld and

792
00:34:08.331 --> 00:34:14.474
 SN, that was really striking to see how many that there was a queue in the men's bathrooms.

793
00:34:15.034 --> 00:34:16.835
 and not in the women's bathroom.

794
00:34:17.276 --> 00:34:22.079
 And many women probably don't feel that comfortable being surrounded by so many men.

795
00:34:22.219 --> 00:34:23.540
 So it's also this kind of,

796
00:34:23.780 --> 00:34:24.040
 let's say,

797
00:34:24.101 --> 00:34:25.522
 invisible constraints.

798
00:34:25.622 --> 00:34:29.624
 So it's really hard to be like the first woman in the room and to bring other people on board.

799
00:34:29.664 --> 00:34:33.387
 But it's also the role of the businesses because they need to attract the best talent,

800
00:34:33.407 --> 00:34:33.907
 as you said,

801
00:34:34.368 --> 00:34:39.732
 to create the conditions that everybody feels safe and can thrive whatever the conditions,

802
00:34:39.892 --> 00:34:40.092
 right?

803
00:34:40.112 --> 00:34:42.854
 So it comes from inherent policy.

804
00:34:43.294 --> 00:34:44.195
 for gender equity,

805
00:34:44.515 --> 00:34:49.058
 for health care that takes better into account female challenges or,

806
00:34:49.098 --> 00:34:49.639
 I don't know,

807
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.901
 even gender transition needs at many different levels.

808
00:34:53.181 --> 00:34:53.301
 So,

809
00:34:53.522 --> 00:34:53.702
 yeah,

810
00:34:53.902 --> 00:34:58.906
 I'm really happy that I can bring some power into this conversation.

811
00:35:00.271 --> 00:35:01.592
Which beautifully put,

812
00:35:01.632 --> 00:35:01.772
 look,

813
00:35:01.892 --> 00:35:02.713
 three things to mention.

814
00:35:03.214 --> 00:35:03.674
 Number one,

815
00:35:04.014 --> 00:35:06.797
 that conversation has actually spurred us to action there.

816
00:35:06.798 --> 00:35:07.978
 So we're now,

817
00:35:08.178 --> 00:35:11.120
 we're supporting the EU and energy equality platform.

818
00:35:11.581 --> 00:35:16.885
 Probably my kind of favorite speaking engagement of the year is I go to Warsaw.

819
00:35:17.025 --> 00:35:21.989
 I've been to Warsaw for each of the last three years to teach on a thing called the Academy of Energy Leader,

820
00:35:22.089 --> 00:35:28.615
 which is like 30 incredibly smart Polish graduates who want to get into the energy sector.

821
00:35:28.975 --> 00:35:29.976
 I absolutely love that.

822
00:35:30.136 --> 00:35:31.056
 Two of them work for us.

823
00:35:31.576 --> 00:35:33.598
 And we sponsor the EU

824
00:35:34.118 --> 00:35:35.218
 Youth Energy Network,

825
00:35:35.278 --> 00:35:35.519
 again,

826
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:44.383
 because you need to get smart people from multiple different backgrounds into the field because that's going to help,

827
00:35:44.563 --> 00:35:46.465
 whether they end up in trading or elsewhere.

828
00:35:46.965 --> 00:35:47.445
 And actually,

829
00:35:48.105 --> 00:35:52.328
 they are things I'm really proud that we as an organization are doing.

830
00:35:53.028 --> 00:35:55.469
 And we will keep doing those for the next few years.

831
00:35:55.470 --> 00:35:57.410
 And we've got full support from our board for that.

832
00:35:57.470 --> 00:35:58.231
 So who

833
00:35:58.647 --> 00:36:00.769
 I'm pleased there's a bit of action happening from our side.

834
00:36:01.669 --> 00:36:01.829
Yeah,

835
00:36:01.989 --> 00:36:04.251
 it's not like a straightforward word for anyone.

836
00:36:04.291 --> 00:36:07.393
 It's more like a journey and we need to be accepting of this,

837
00:36:07.513 --> 00:36:07.774
 right?

838
00:36:08.034 --> 00:36:08.154
 So,

839
00:36:08.734 --> 00:36:09.014
 yeah,

840
00:36:09.615 --> 00:36:10.095
 as you said,

841
00:36:10.215 --> 00:36:11.536
 it's not a one-size-fits-all.

842
00:36:11.596 --> 00:36:12.257
 It's a system.

843
00:36:13.297 --> 00:36:14.318
 Everything is important.

844
00:36:14.358 --> 00:36:15.159
 Nothing is important,

845
00:36:15.219 --> 00:36:15.419
 right?

846
00:36:16.460 --> 00:36:19.282
 It's really about the balance of the various responsibilities.

847
00:36:19.682 --> 00:36:24.826
 But really starting by acknowledging the responsibility of each party is,

848
00:36:25.106 --> 00:36:25.426
 I think,

849
00:36:25.566 --> 00:36:26.447
 like a duh.

850
00:36:27.091 --> 00:36:29.693
 Like it is the number one thing that we need to do,

851
00:36:29.733 --> 00:36:32.394
 like in collision where we are and what we can do,

852
00:36:32.574 --> 00:36:33.715
 what our role is.

853
00:36:33.895 --> 00:36:36.797
 And if something doesn't work,

854
00:36:37.217 --> 00:36:38.678
 how can we help fix it?

855
00:36:38.718 --> 00:36:40.479
 Because maybe we can fix it alone,

856
00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:41.559
 but as a team,

857
00:36:42.100 --> 00:36:42.720
 as a system,

858
00:36:42.860 --> 00:36:43.280
 we might.

859
00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:43.701
 And

860
00:36:44.161 --> 00:36:47.743
 I think it pretty much summarizes what energy traders do.

861
00:36:48.623 --> 00:36:49.344
Beautifully put.

862
00:36:50.464 --> 00:36:50.785
Okay,

863
00:36:51.065 --> 00:36:51.345
 Marc,

864
00:36:51.385 --> 00:36:54.647
 so we are reaching the end of this episode and you've already...

865
00:36:55.107 --> 00:37:11.051
 nudged into the following episode of this series with you with the inter-traders europe so we will have one with the youth synergy network and also one on gender equity so but now i would like to really leave you with one one let's say juicy question are

866
00:37:11.052 --> 00:37:21.234
 you ready please do you believe that policymakers understand traders i was a policymaker for nearly

867
00:37:21.914 --> 00:37:24.555
11 years and i didn't understand.

868
00:37:24.999 --> 00:37:45.856
 things but do policy makers need to understand traders probably not in time they need to understand the role that trading is able to play and i do think there are very impressive organizations in europe on the regulatory side yes most of business as the aces of this world yes they can always

869
00:37:45.857 --> 00:37:53.683
 be better but actually this is a well-regulated sector generally speaking and i have kind of confident And.

870
00:37:54.171 --> 00:37:57.013
 If those people can find a way to get around the table,

871
00:37:57.974 --> 00:38:04.019
 to focus on the longer term vision for a European energy market,

872
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:06.841
 then actually the challenges we face can be overcome.

873
00:38:07.361 --> 00:38:09.023
 I was walking into work this morning.

874
00:38:09.503 --> 00:38:11.885
 Front page of The Economist says the age of chaos.

875
00:38:12.345 --> 00:38:12.585
 Now,

876
00:38:13.486 --> 00:38:13.866
 you can say,

877
00:38:13.926 --> 00:38:14.107
 oh,

878
00:38:14.127 --> 00:38:15.268
 it's all very chaotic,

879
00:38:15.528 --> 00:38:18.830
 or you can try and find some positives that come out of this chaos.

880
00:38:18.910 --> 00:38:19.731
 Thank you.

881
00:38:19.831 --> 00:38:23.794
 And I think this is the time for Europe to really come together,

882
00:38:24.334 --> 00:38:26.676
 to build from the foundations we've created,

883
00:38:27.356 --> 00:38:33.060
 to create something which is strong in a global context and which gives us better,

884
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:33.901
 more secure,

885
00:38:34.081 --> 00:38:34.801
 more decarbonized,

886
00:38:34.821 --> 00:38:36.382
 more affordable energy in the moment.

887
00:38:36.843 --> 00:38:38.724
 But that's going to need a bit of change.

888
00:38:39.064 --> 00:38:43.507
 It's going to need policymakers to understand that you have to act worldwide.

889
00:38:43.828 --> 00:38:45.549
 You have to act with traders,

890
00:38:45.629 --> 00:38:46.509
 with grid companies,

891
00:38:46.510 --> 00:38:47.250
 with customers,

892
00:38:47.330 --> 00:38:48.491
 with local representatives.

893
00:38:48.951 --> 00:38:50.292
 environmental organizations,

894
00:38:50.852 --> 00:38:53.873
 it needs a much more focused,

895
00:38:54.433 --> 00:38:57.815
 less short-term dialogue to get where we need to get.

896
00:38:58.715 --> 00:38:59.555
 Last thing I want to say,

897
00:39:00.376 --> 00:39:12.941
 I love it and hate it in almost equal measures because there's so much opportunity we could be seizing and so much detail and excessive complexity that we insist on creating.

898
00:39:13.261 --> 00:39:15.922
 I can't guarantee I'm going to do it for 25 more years,

899
00:39:16.462 --> 00:39:17.763
 but I'm going to keep doing it.

900
00:39:17.947 --> 00:39:18.668
 Because actually,

901
00:39:19.128 --> 00:39:22.951
 it's never been more important that we create these systems.

902
00:39:23.532 --> 00:39:24.432
 Because frankly,

903
00:39:24.913 --> 00:39:26.594
 customers in Europe need them.

904
00:39:27.155 --> 00:39:28.676
 You don't stop being a regulator.

905
00:39:28.916 --> 00:39:31.418
 And that's still fundamentally what kind of motivates me.

906
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:32.199
 So

907
00:39:32.879 --> 00:39:34.541
 I hope we can have another chat in a few years'

908
00:39:34.561 --> 00:39:34.741
 time.

909
00:39:34.761 --> 00:39:35.301
 And we can say,

910
00:39:35.561 --> 00:39:35.682
 hey,

911
00:39:35.762 --> 00:39:37.003
 look at the progress we made.

912
00:39:37.323 --> 00:39:42.167
 Look at how all of that global chaos led Europe to really step up,

913
00:39:42.887 --> 00:39:44.569
 double down on what it does well,

914
00:39:44.989 --> 00:39:47.091
 and create something which is akin to a...

915
00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:59.690
 an energy handiatically or something who knows so you're a full vegeter we have to fix them and if there's anything that traders are good at it's in a

916
00:40:00.558 --> 00:40:01.159
 innovation,

917
00:40:01.239 --> 00:40:01.819
 right?

918
00:40:01.820 --> 00:40:02.279
 What's the problem?

919
00:40:02.620 --> 00:40:03.941
 Find a way of managing problem.

920
00:40:04.822 --> 00:40:09.465
 And the single biggest thing that keeps me enjoying my job,

921
00:40:09.826 --> 00:40:16.551
 whether that's working with kids in Poland or having extremely boring conversations with TSOs in Britain or elsewhere,

922
00:40:16.972 --> 00:40:18.072
 the people are smart.

923
00:40:18.973 --> 00:40:24.658
 There is no shortage of ideas and there is no shortage of kind of desire to try and make things better.

924
00:40:25.298 --> 00:40:27.300
 Lots of disagreement about what better looks like,

925
00:40:27.580 --> 00:40:29.582
 but if we can harness that talent,

926
00:40:30.166 --> 00:40:38.752
 we can step away from 27 national approaches and actually realize that doing this together is really the only option,

927
00:40:39.293 --> 00:40:40.593
 then you have to be optimistic,

928
00:40:42.095 --> 00:40:42.835
right?

929
00:40:42.895 --> 00:40:43.696
 Thank you so much,

930
00:40:43.776 --> 00:40:44.036
 Mark.

931
00:40:44.136 --> 00:40:46.298
 It's been such an insightful conversation.

932
00:40:46.398 --> 00:40:48.919
 We've touched upon so many topics and really,

933
00:40:49.740 --> 00:40:49.880
 yeah,

934
00:40:50.020 --> 00:40:51.521
 there's a lot of food for thought.

935
00:40:51.601 --> 00:40:53.202
 So thank you so much for tuning in.

936
00:40:53.683 --> 00:40:54.223
 And yeah,

937
00:40:54.824 --> 00:40:57.886
 let's meet up again in a couple of years and see how...

938
00:40:58.346 --> 00:41:00.608
 much progress we've made on those various fronts.

939
00:41:00.808 --> 00:41:01.948
 Thank you for watching.

940
00:41:02.409 --> 00:41:02.749
Thank you,

941
00:41:02.750 --> 00:41:03.089
 Marina.

942
00:41:03.090 --> 00:41:04.810
 And thank you to everyone who got to the end of that.

943
00:41:05.250 --> 00:41:07.752
 Feel free to get in touch if you fundamentally disagree.

944
00:41:08.493 --> 00:41:08.693
Yeah,

945
00:41:09.213 --> 00:41:09.653
 of course.

946
00:41:09.713 --> 00:41:10.874
 It's about creating a dialogue,

947
00:41:10.994 --> 00:41:11.174
 right?

948
00:41:11.214 --> 00:41:15.257
 Because it's only by confronting two people who think differently that we actually grow.

949
00:41:15.917 --> 00:41:16.198
 So yeah,

950
00:41:16.458 --> 00:41:16.798
 that's it.

951
00:41:17.158 --> 00:41:18.039
 Thank you for watching.

952
00:41:18.040 --> 00:41:22.982
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic.

953
00:41:23.242 --> 00:41:31.104
 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there.

954
00:41:31.785 --> 00:41:32.665
 Amber and Cornelis,

955
00:41:32.745 --> 00:41:34.405
 your hosts from Policy Consultancy,

956
00:41:34.485 --> 00:41:35.566
 Next Energy Consumer,

957
00:41:35.926 --> 00:41:39.387
 and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you,

958
00:41:39.767 --> 00:41:41.908
 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners.

959
00:41:42.608 --> 00:41:43.848
 Since 2021,

960
00:41:44.028 --> 00:41:45.489
 we've shared countless stories,

961
00:41:45.649 --> 00:41:46.149
 insights,

962
00:41:46.150 --> 00:41:49.310
 and ideas over more than 14 episodes.

963
00:41:49.690 --> 00:41:52.851
 And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm.

964
00:41:53.552 --> 00:41:57.834
 If you're enjoying our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going,

965
00:41:58.214 --> 00:41:59.834
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966
00:42:00.435 --> 00:42:03.716
 Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way.

967
00:42:04.236 --> 00:42:06.017
 Check out the show notes for the link.

968
00:42:06.738 --> 00:42:07.138
 And hey,

969
00:42:07.618 --> 00:42:13.280
 if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future,

970
00:42:13.781 --> 00:42:16.662
 we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you.

971
00:42:17.098 --> 00:42:23.180
 It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together.

972
00:42:24.120 --> 00:42:25.560
 Shout out to the fantastic

973
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:31.422
 Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work,

974
00:42:31.802 --> 00:42:34.223
 making every episode a joy to listen to.

975
00:42:35.143 --> 00:42:36.143
 If you haven't already,

976
00:42:36.403 --> 00:42:39.864
 make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform.

977
00:42:40.344 --> 00:42:43.825
 And if you think a friend or colleague could benefit from our episode,

978
00:42:44.206 --> 00:42:45.806
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979
00:42:46.250 --> 00:42:50.453
 It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive.

980
00:42:50.973 --> 00:42:52.274
 Sharing is caring.

981
00:42:52.835 --> 00:42:57.978
 Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic.

982
00:42:58.298 --> 00:43:00.180
 Thanks once again for lending your ears.

983
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:01.060
 Until next time.

984
00:43:15.591 --> 00:43:18.556
I'm gonna be a musical,

985
00:43:18.557 --> 00:43:24.528
 I'm gonna be a musical