WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.757 --> 00:00:02.718 We need all hands on deck. 2 00:00:02.738 --> 00:00:09.585 We need to mobilize massive amounts of investment for the challenges that lie ahead in terms of decarbonization and also competitiveness. 3 00:00:09.648 --> 00:00:16.234 Because right now we all agree that decarbonization equals competitiveness and we cannot afford to leave the series behind. 4 00:00:20.242 --> 00:00:21.773 The energy transition is happening, 5 00:00:22.023 --> 00:00:22.960 but is it fair? 6 00:00:23.538 --> 00:00:28.007 Is it working for people like you and me or just for big market players? 7 00:00:29.152 --> 00:00:30.113 Welcome to Energetic. 8 00:00:30.373 --> 00:00:31.275 I am Mayenne Cornelis, 9 00:00:31.374 --> 00:00:33.396 an expert in energy and climate policies, 10 00:00:33.755 --> 00:00:36.661 and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. 11 00:00:37.443 --> 00:00:37.880 Activists, 12 00:00:37.904 --> 00:00:38.505 scientists, 13 00:00:38.599 --> 00:00:39.341 policymakers, 14 00:00:39.724 --> 00:00:41.724 the real people making real change, 15 00:00:42.325 --> 00:00:43.685 often against the odds. 16 00:00:44.669 --> 00:00:44.950 Here, 17 00:00:45.161 --> 00:00:47.396 we do not settle for surface level takes. 18 00:00:47.849 --> 00:00:49.286 We dig into the challenges, 19 00:00:49.427 --> 00:00:50.239 the solutions, 20 00:00:50.396 --> 00:00:53.693 and the lessons that do not always make the headlines. 21 00:00:54.396 --> 00:00:55.130 And in doing so, 22 00:00:55.646 --> 00:00:57.646 we rediscover something vital. 23 00:00:58.056 --> 00:01:00.279 our ability to trust in institutions, 24 00:01:00.418 --> 00:01:01.400 to believe in change, 25 00:01:01.721 --> 00:01:04.342 and to reclaim our power to act. 26 00:01:04.803 --> 00:01:06.627 Because if we want just resilience, 27 00:01:06.924 --> 00:01:08.268 if we want just transition, 28 00:01:08.666 --> 00:01:11.549 we need to understand what it takes to make it happen. 29 00:01:12.127 --> 00:01:12.947 And more importantly, 30 00:01:13.408 --> 00:01:15.228 we need to believe that we can. 31 00:01:15.978 --> 00:01:16.838 Let's get into it. 32 00:01:18.697 --> 00:01:19.885 A little while ago, 33 00:01:20.213 --> 00:01:21.275 I spoke with the son, 34 00:01:21.541 --> 00:01:22.916 Debremon from Rescope EU, 35 00:01:23.228 --> 00:01:26.650 who reminded us that finance is often the senior support. 36 00:01:27.028 --> 00:01:28.008 in community energy, 37 00:01:28.548 --> 00:01:33.569 a make or break factor for projects that prioritize social value over pure profit. 38 00:01:34.291 --> 00:01:34.569 Today, 39 00:01:34.631 --> 00:01:38.850 we continue that conversation with someone who's been taking this challenge head on. 40 00:01:39.514 --> 00:01:40.850 My guest is Chris Veritas, 41 00:01:40.951 --> 00:01:42.889 who works with Rescope EU in Brussels. 42 00:01:43.475 --> 00:01:46.897 And Rescope is the European Federation of Energy Cooperatives. 43 00:01:47.069 --> 00:01:49.115 And he also works for ElectroEnergy in Greece. 44 00:01:49.834 --> 00:01:54.928 Chris is deeply involved in EU advocacy on renewable energy and citizen participation. 45 00:01:55.496 --> 00:02:04.198 with a sharp focus on how funding tools from the Social Climate Fund to the EU's multi-year budget can empower people rather than exclude them. 46 00:02:05.222 --> 00:02:07.995 Chris is here in the framework of the 47 00:02:08.362 --> 00:02:09.276 ACE project. 48 00:02:09.722 --> 00:02:13.081 ACE stands for Access to Capital for Community Energy. 49 00:02:13.894 --> 00:02:15.394 And over the past three years, 50 00:02:15.628 --> 00:02:24.315 ACE has been developing innovative collective financing tools so that local energy communities don't have to reinvent the wheel every time they want to launch. 51 00:02:24.644 --> 00:02:28.566 a solar rooftop district heating system or mobility project. 52 00:02:29.405 --> 00:02:33.206 The results speak for themselves because pilot schemes across Belgium, 53 00:02:33.323 --> 00:02:33.730 Germany, 54 00:02:33.964 --> 00:02:34.425 Croatia, 55 00:02:34.667 --> 00:02:36.550 Romania and Spain and beyond, 56 00:02:36.551 --> 00:02:36.925 of course, 57 00:02:37.347 --> 00:02:47.183 mobilized 738 million euros to new and existing community energy financing schemes and the mobilization of citizens' 58 00:02:47.370 --> 00:02:50.386 own savings into something with tangible social, 59 00:02:50.448 --> 00:02:52.683 environmental and economic returns. 60 00:02:53.683 --> 00:02:53.870 as 61 00:02:54.032 --> 00:02:58.075 As ACE draws to a close with this final event on 7 October, 62 00:02:58.317 --> 00:03:00.317 which I will have the pleasure to moderate, 63 00:03:00.938 --> 00:03:03.899 Chris and I will explore what has been achieved, 64 00:03:04.243 --> 00:03:05.524 what remains unfinished, 65 00:03:05.860 --> 00:03:10.095 and what it all means for the future of community energy in Europe. 66 00:03:11.970 --> 00:03:12.235 Chris, 67 00:03:12.516 --> 00:03:13.407 welcome to the show. 68 00:03:13.845 --> 00:03:14.532 Great to be with you, 69 00:03:14.548 --> 00:03:14.798 Marine. 70 00:03:15.032 --> 00:03:15.766 Thanks for having me. 71 00:03:16.751 --> 00:03:16.876 So, 72 00:03:17.079 --> 00:03:17.438 Chris, 73 00:03:17.782 --> 00:03:22.016 can you tell us how you became passionate about community energy? 74 00:03:22.528 --> 00:03:23.728 Was there a moment, 75 00:03:23.848 --> 00:03:26.608 perhaps back in Greece where you grew up, 76 00:03:27.010 --> 00:03:30.912 when you realized citizens had to be at the center of the end transition? 77 00:03:31.647 --> 00:03:32.889 It was very random. 78 00:03:33.889 --> 00:03:39.428 I was working kind of as a freelance journalist in Greece and I was invited on the 79 00:03:39.912 --> 00:03:40.569 Rainbow Warrior, 80 00:03:40.694 --> 00:03:41.834 the boat of Greenpeace, 81 00:03:42.397 --> 00:03:48.147 where completely coincidentally one of my now colleagues at Elektra 82 00:03:48.636 --> 00:03:55.221 I was giving a presentation on the topic of energy communities and specifically the model of collective self-consumption, 83 00:03:55.662 --> 00:04:00.244 which is kind of what most energy communities work with in Greece. 84 00:04:00.768 --> 00:04:01.205 And I was like, 85 00:04:01.228 --> 00:04:01.346 OK, 86 00:04:01.525 --> 00:04:01.713 wow, 87 00:04:03.010 --> 00:04:05.150 there's a possibility for citizens to come together, 88 00:04:05.353 --> 00:04:06.260 invest in solar. 89 00:04:06.541 --> 00:04:06.650 So, 90 00:04:06.651 --> 00:04:06.900 you know, 91 00:04:06.932 --> 00:04:08.322 tackle climate change, 92 00:04:08.353 --> 00:04:10.791 which was and is a big passion for me, 93 00:04:11.494 --> 00:04:12.916 and reduce their energy bills and, 94 00:04:12.917 --> 00:04:13.119 you know, 95 00:04:13.166 --> 00:04:14.822 kind of contribute to more fair society. 96 00:04:15.644 --> 00:04:16.185 you know, 97 00:04:16.205 --> 00:04:16.826 count me in. 98 00:04:16.885 --> 00:04:19.449 I immediately went to him after the presentation. 99 00:04:19.468 --> 00:04:19.789 I was like, 100 00:04:19.910 --> 00:04:20.968 I want to get involved. 101 00:04:21.968 --> 00:04:22.632 And yeah, 102 00:04:22.672 --> 00:04:23.371 five years later, 103 00:04:23.812 --> 00:04:27.375 I had also the privilege to join Resco, 104 00:04:27.718 --> 00:04:31.297 to also have a more perspective of what's happening across the EU. 105 00:04:32.234 --> 00:04:33.109 And here we are today. 106 00:04:33.970 --> 00:04:34.611 That's really cool. 107 00:04:35.771 --> 00:04:37.693 I don't hear that often. 108 00:04:38.033 --> 00:04:43.923 People really go into a place with one idea and then living with another. 109 00:04:44.283 --> 00:04:50.009 It's really these sliding door moments that we don't really realize when they happen, 110 00:04:50.228 --> 00:04:53.009 but then you actually realize it. 111 00:04:53.869 --> 00:04:54.791 That's really cool. 112 00:04:55.509 --> 00:04:57.009 How is it on the Rainbow Warriors? 113 00:04:57.025 --> 00:04:59.509 I've always been curious to know that. 114 00:05:00.791 --> 00:05:03.478 it's definitely it's exciting yeah it's 115 00:05:03.850 --> 00:05:20.166 kind of has this energy it vibrates you feel like okay i am part of something bigger and something more important yeah and i think that speaks it goes back to your question like why did you get involved into to all of this and i think you know you we do live in an era of disidentification there's 116 00:05:20.260 --> 00:05:28.229 kind of a lack of social cohesion we more and more young people are finding it hard to identify with certain political currents so we just end up 117 00:05:28.458 --> 00:05:29.519 depoliticizing, 118 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:30.921 scrolling on social media, 119 00:05:31.061 --> 00:05:34.284 not caring about the world because we cannot find anything to identify with. 120 00:05:34.885 --> 00:05:41.272 And I feel like the community energy movement gives you that sense of metaphorically and literally collective energy. 121 00:05:41.749 --> 00:05:41.991 You know, 122 00:05:42.014 --> 00:05:44.171 like you become part of something bigger, 123 00:05:44.374 --> 00:05:45.874 you feel like you're fighting the good fight. 124 00:05:46.499 --> 00:05:47.171 And yeah, 125 00:05:47.280 --> 00:05:49.452 that's kind of the feeling I had when I was on the Rainbow Water. 126 00:05:49.514 --> 00:05:49.702 Like, 127 00:05:49.733 --> 00:05:50.046 okay, 128 00:05:50.264 --> 00:05:51.858 here we're here to fight the good fight. 129 00:05:51.936 --> 00:05:53.280 So that's great. 130 00:05:53.983 --> 00:05:54.108 Yeah, 131 00:05:54.249 --> 00:05:54.702 that's great. 132 00:05:54.889 --> 00:05:55.249 And, 133 00:05:55.389 --> 00:05:55.639 you know, 134 00:05:55.983 --> 00:05:56.639 I also... 135 00:05:57.014 --> 00:06:01.639 I read recently that when assessing students or, 136 00:06:01.760 --> 00:06:02.018 let's say, 137 00:06:02.061 --> 00:06:06.061 young people's behavior and understanding of climate change, 138 00:06:06.803 --> 00:06:14.405 actually what was making the difference was really to feel that they were part of a movement. 139 00:06:14.608 --> 00:06:16.920 If they were feeling that they were fighting alone, 140 00:06:17.467 --> 00:06:21.733 that it was like a side thing that nobody really cared about. 141 00:06:21.998 --> 00:06:25.123 But from the moment they realized that they were not alone in their fight. 142 00:06:26.126 --> 00:06:26.366 I mean, 143 00:06:26.446 --> 00:06:28.689 that was the remedy to apathy and to, 144 00:06:28.968 --> 00:06:29.429 let's say, 145 00:06:29.670 --> 00:06:38.660 also this kind of ego anxiety that you probably felt when you were putting your feet on this boat, 146 00:06:38.816 --> 00:06:39.496 literally. 147 00:06:40.019 --> 00:06:42.144 And that's also, 148 00:06:42.535 --> 00:06:42.800 I guess, 149 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:46.519 one of the reasons why the community energy movement is so powerful. 150 00:06:46.566 --> 00:06:49.285 So you've been working at the Grassroots Initiative, 151 00:06:49.332 --> 00:06:49.613 right? 152 00:06:49.863 --> 00:06:53.832 And also at EU level advocacy. 153 00:06:54.691 --> 00:06:55.582 and I mean that's 154 00:06:56.186 --> 00:07:19.111 really nice because they are i've been doing the same and often i've met people who are very disconnected from reality and now you told me that you are moving to milan so you will also be a little bit closer to existing initiatives and daily struggles so how do you make that work how do you make the combination of those two worlds like eu policy and grassroots initiative work in your daily life i 155 00:07:19.127 --> 00:07:22.314 think you can't have one without the other if we want to be honest 156 00:07:23.114 --> 00:07:23.535 It's great, 157 00:07:23.536 --> 00:07:23.755 you know, 158 00:07:23.955 --> 00:07:31.065 it feels very impactful to be working with EU policy and you're speaking with decision makers and you feel like you're kind of putting your little, 159 00:07:31.080 --> 00:07:31.385 little, 160 00:07:31.666 --> 00:07:31.963 let's say, 161 00:07:32.322 --> 00:07:34.307 contribution to something bigger. 162 00:07:34.729 --> 00:07:35.346 But at the same time, 163 00:07:35.424 --> 00:07:38.111 if that's isolated from the realities on the ground, 164 00:07:38.112 --> 00:07:39.315 then it becomes an ivory tower. 165 00:07:39.736 --> 00:07:41.752 And it's very self-referential. 166 00:07:41.908 --> 00:07:43.752 It's almost irrelevant, 167 00:07:43.908 --> 00:07:44.752 if you allow me. 168 00:07:45.440 --> 00:07:46.955 Whereas if you also kind of, 169 00:07:47.252 --> 00:07:48.752 and that's also the motto, 170 00:07:49.080 --> 00:07:49.518 the model, 171 00:07:49.533 --> 00:07:49.783 let's say, 172 00:07:49.784 --> 00:07:51.096 the strategic model of Rescopillo. 173 00:07:52.795 --> 00:07:54.738 We want a strong European federation, 174 00:07:54.818 --> 00:08:00.560 but also to keep growing strong national federations of energy communities at every member state. 175 00:08:01.083 --> 00:08:06.247 Exactly so that there is this connection between what's happening on the ground and what's happening at the EU level. 176 00:08:06.708 --> 00:08:06.966 Because, 177 00:08:06.967 --> 00:08:07.169 you know, 178 00:08:07.170 --> 00:08:09.130 we can pass all the great laws, 179 00:08:09.318 --> 00:08:09.974 all the great ideas, 180 00:08:10.052 --> 00:08:12.021 but if we don't raise the awareness, 181 00:08:12.052 --> 00:08:13.990 if we don't build the power from the bottom up, 182 00:08:14.412 --> 00:08:16.443 if we don't speak to people in their neighborhoods, 183 00:08:16.474 --> 00:08:17.255 in the workplaces, 184 00:08:17.318 --> 00:08:17.787 and actually... 185 00:08:18.250 --> 00:08:38.114 make them understand what the energy transition is about and how they can co-benefit from it and how they can shape it then of course it's not going to go anywhere yeah yeah that's that's very very true it's also something i've observed and and many of my guests have also pointed out this uh those factors right uh from cedar run afghan europe to uh like 186 00:08:38.130 --> 00:08:44.130 monica um also i mean it's really about how things become really tangible. 187 00:08:44.255 --> 00:08:45.896 And money is one of... 188 00:08:46.542 --> 00:08:46.662 the, 189 00:08:47.383 --> 00:08:47.763 let's say, 190 00:08:48.443 --> 00:08:52.049 seniors of one of the roadblocks somehow. 191 00:08:52.806 --> 00:08:54.470 And when I spoke with Stan, 192 00:08:54.713 --> 00:09:02.400 we discussed how community projects often pay a kind of risk premium simply because banks don't understand their models. 193 00:09:02.572 --> 00:09:02.838 And 194 00:09:03.463 --> 00:09:09.306 I think bankers are human beings and they need to be educated as well on the benefits and on the impact as well. 195 00:09:09.369 --> 00:09:09.478 But, 196 00:09:09.838 --> 00:09:10.088 I mean, 197 00:09:10.089 --> 00:09:11.494 that goes way beyond that. 198 00:09:11.588 --> 00:09:15.697 So how do you feel that ACE has managed to... 199 00:09:16.546 --> 00:09:18.071 help change that perception? 200 00:09:18.855 --> 00:09:20.298 I would say there's two main ways. 201 00:09:20.739 --> 00:09:21.622 One is that 202 00:09:22.783 --> 00:09:24.685 It basically created the framework, 203 00:09:25.425 --> 00:09:26.146 common language, 204 00:09:26.447 --> 00:09:27.786 as you correctly also said, 205 00:09:28.451 --> 00:09:31.271 for communities to speak with financiers. 206 00:09:32.255 --> 00:09:32.693 Many times, 207 00:09:32.694 --> 00:09:32.896 you know, 208 00:09:33.115 --> 00:09:34.958 because energy communities are bottom up, 209 00:09:35.013 --> 00:09:35.833 they're voluntary led, 210 00:09:35.857 --> 00:09:36.794 they don't have the tools, 211 00:09:36.795 --> 00:09:40.622 they don't know how to approach financiers and actually make a value proposition. 212 00:09:40.888 --> 00:09:41.466 And so that, 213 00:09:41.622 --> 00:09:41.794 look, 214 00:09:42.029 --> 00:09:43.326 we're bringing societal value, 215 00:09:43.357 --> 00:09:44.607 we're bringing environmental value, 216 00:09:44.966 --> 00:09:47.904 but it's not necessarily reflected in huge returns, 217 00:09:48.076 --> 00:09:49.107 huge economic returns, 218 00:09:49.169 --> 00:09:50.966 but we're bringing this extra value, 219 00:09:50.997 --> 00:09:52.154 we're tackling energy poverty. 220 00:09:52.739 --> 00:09:56.921 how do I translate that into a value proposition that is understandable to you? 221 00:09:57.484 --> 00:09:59.265 So that's the part of the financial literacy. 222 00:09:59.968 --> 00:10:03.273 And then there's also what we, 223 00:10:04.093 --> 00:10:06.710 this new term that we kind of created through the ACE project, 224 00:10:06.711 --> 00:10:09.429 the so-called community energy financing schemes. 225 00:10:10.023 --> 00:10:10.898 And these are sort of, 226 00:10:10.929 --> 00:10:11.320 let's say, 227 00:10:12.023 --> 00:10:15.007 almost revolving funds or let's say services, 228 00:10:15.226 --> 00:10:21.429 some sort of structure that the community organization creates to keep funding community energy projects. 229 00:10:21.791 --> 00:10:23.233 So how does it work in practice? 230 00:10:23.933 --> 00:10:24.054 Yeah, 231 00:10:24.134 --> 00:10:27.116 so there were five countries in the project. 232 00:10:27.136 --> 00:10:27.456 There was 233 00:10:27.999 --> 00:10:29.159 Belgium, Croatia, 234 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:29.976 Romania, 235 00:10:30.257 --> 00:10:30.960 the Netherlands, 236 00:10:31.624 --> 00:10:32.343 France and Spain. 237 00:10:32.499 --> 00:10:33.304 I think that was six, 238 00:10:33.523 --> 00:10:35.187 but they might have said five. 239 00:10:36.265 --> 00:10:37.780 And each of them had a very, 240 00:10:37.890 --> 00:10:38.562 very different, 241 00:10:39.249 --> 00:10:39.515 let's say, 242 00:10:39.593 --> 00:10:40.062 structure. 243 00:10:40.546 --> 00:10:41.155 So for example, 244 00:10:41.202 --> 00:10:41.796 in Spain, 245 00:10:42.312 --> 00:10:50.780 our partner Goyener provides a facilitation service between two ethical banks and small and energy communities on the ground. 246 00:10:50.915 --> 00:10:55.695 And basically what Goiner does is that it provides a standardized template, 247 00:10:55.836 --> 00:10:57.035 a business model template, 248 00:10:57.395 --> 00:10:59.398 that all the energy communities have to fill in. 249 00:11:00.258 --> 00:11:00.375 And, 250 00:11:00.594 --> 00:11:00.836 you know, 251 00:11:00.898 --> 00:11:02.797 kind of all the paperwork simplifies it, 252 00:11:02.836 --> 00:11:05.281 standardizes it so that they all feel the same thing. 253 00:11:05.359 --> 00:11:05.680 And then 254 00:11:06.656 --> 00:11:08.578 Goiner applies for a loan on their behalf. 255 00:11:09.422 --> 00:11:11.078 So it cuts the red tape in a way. 256 00:11:11.203 --> 00:11:11.422 I mean, 257 00:11:11.453 --> 00:11:12.578 it doesn't cut the red tape, 258 00:11:12.594 --> 00:11:14.219 but it eases the red tape. 259 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:14.939 Yes, 260 00:11:15.239 --> 00:11:15.620 exactly. 261 00:11:16.419 --> 00:11:18.579 And it also reduces the risk for the banks because, 262 00:11:18.580 --> 00:11:18.779 you know, 263 00:11:18.780 --> 00:11:21.540 if you have a standardized template and if you have a trusted intermediary, 264 00:11:22.201 --> 00:11:23.982 then there's less risk. 265 00:11:24.740 --> 00:11:24.958 Yeah, 266 00:11:24.959 --> 00:11:25.341 there's less, 267 00:11:25.458 --> 00:11:25.779 let's say, 268 00:11:27.201 --> 00:11:28.005 space for error. 269 00:11:28.662 --> 00:11:30.521 Or in France and the Netherlands, 270 00:11:30.560 --> 00:11:31.005 we have, 271 00:11:31.708 --> 00:11:31.958 let's say, 272 00:11:32.005 --> 00:11:33.240 maybe the pioneer, 273 00:11:33.458 --> 00:11:35.943 the biggest community energy financing schemes. 274 00:11:36.458 --> 00:11:37.224 In the Netherlands, 275 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:37.662 you have 276 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:38.912 Energy Salmon, 277 00:11:39.005 --> 00:11:42.271 which is the National Federation of Energy Communities in the Netherlands. 278 00:11:42.818 --> 00:11:43.052 they 279 00:11:43.347 --> 00:12:10.354 created the so-called development fund which was capitalized by the national ministry the national government and for regions in the netherlands and the idea is that it provides loans to grants to start in community energy projects to cover the risky first stages of project development so it provides them with a loan of um let's say yeah for the development stage feasibility studies you know kind of the first steps 280 00:12:10.955 --> 00:12:13.115 And if then the project does not move forward, 281 00:12:13.675 --> 00:12:16.398 the loan is forgiven and it turns into a grant. 282 00:12:16.855 --> 00:12:17.175 Okay. 283 00:12:17.257 --> 00:12:20.058 So there is this built-in solidarity mechanism, 284 00:12:20.059 --> 00:12:20.253 you know, 285 00:12:20.418 --> 00:12:21.957 between the successful projects and the... 286 00:12:22.878 --> 00:12:23.035 yeah. 287 00:12:23.535 --> 00:12:40.121 That's interesting because in fact there it's rare that there are actually dialogues between this kind of like grants and loans like it's something like either it's either or and for many let's say startup projects even like 288 00:12:40.323 --> 00:12:41.404 with community ones, 289 00:12:42.545 --> 00:12:53.892 that makes so much sense to have something like the right to forget and the right to try and to make mistakes and start better if you can, 290 00:12:54.158 --> 00:12:54.338 right? 291 00:12:54.916 --> 00:12:55.041 Yeah, 292 00:12:55.299 --> 00:12:55.736 exactly. 293 00:12:55.814 --> 00:13:00.017 And what makes these community energy financing schemes really successful? 294 00:13:00.627 --> 00:13:00.783 And, 295 00:13:00.986 --> 00:13:01.221 you know, 296 00:13:01.267 --> 00:13:02.064 you said the numbers. 297 00:13:02.502 --> 00:13:04.533 We've seen that in about five years, 298 00:13:04.721 --> 00:13:09.158 they've crowded in more than 738 million euros for the energy transition. 299 00:13:09.763 --> 00:13:14.383 What makes them successful is that they have this another built-in mechanism which is technical assistance. 300 00:13:15.344 --> 00:13:15.586 You know, 301 00:13:15.644 --> 00:13:16.703 sometimes we have funds, 302 00:13:17.086 --> 00:13:17.625 EU funds. 303 00:13:17.844 --> 00:13:18.281 They exist. 304 00:13:18.305 --> 00:13:19.203 There's cohesion funds, 305 00:13:19.226 --> 00:13:20.367 there's a recovery facility, 306 00:13:20.484 --> 00:13:22.586 and they may put out a call for energy communities. 307 00:13:23.265 --> 00:13:29.703 But there's no applicants because there's a lot of red tape for a small community to access such a big EU fund. 308 00:13:30.203 --> 00:13:35.484 Whereas what happens with community energy financing schemes is that they have people going from region to region, 309 00:13:35.625 --> 00:13:36.765 from neighborhood to neighborhood. 310 00:13:37.695 --> 00:13:40.557 taking people by the hand and telling them there's this financing opportunity. 311 00:13:41.179 --> 00:13:43.903 Here's how you fill out this like templates. 312 00:13:44.223 --> 00:13:45.700 Here's like a proposed business model. 313 00:13:45.966 --> 00:13:47.747 I'll help guide you through the process. 314 00:13:48.427 --> 00:13:49.489 And this is really, 315 00:13:49.591 --> 00:13:52.231 really what we're asking from the EU as well, 316 00:13:52.411 --> 00:13:53.106 as Rescoop EU, 317 00:13:53.669 --> 00:14:01.638 to acknowledge this very important work that national federations of energy communities are doing in creating these financing schemes, 318 00:14:01.825 --> 00:14:03.388 in providing the technical assistance, 319 00:14:03.434 --> 00:14:05.669 because that's how you really get the money on the ground. 320 00:14:06.106 --> 00:14:07.278 So this peer-to-peer approach. 321 00:14:08.031 --> 00:14:08.192 Yeah, 322 00:14:08.392 --> 00:14:08.712 yeah. 323 00:14:08.713 --> 00:14:08.932 I mean, 324 00:14:09.193 --> 00:14:11.036 this part that you just mentioned, 325 00:14:11.037 --> 00:14:18.091 the peer-to-peer approach is like so fundamental because even if you are passionate about clean energy, 326 00:14:18.270 --> 00:14:18.388 if... 327 00:14:18.963 --> 00:14:19.443 Like you, 328 00:14:20.404 --> 00:14:21.166 let's say five years ago, 329 00:14:21.265 --> 00:14:22.806 when you put a step on the 330 00:14:23.306 --> 00:14:26.232 Rainbow Warrior and you realized that there was something to do, 331 00:14:26.709 --> 00:14:33.896 you didn't really have the skills or the tools to understand what and how you could make that happen. 332 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:41.349 So you needed to get some peer learning to know how to make that happen. 333 00:14:41.380 --> 00:14:42.990 But you learned about, 334 00:14:43.427 --> 00:14:43.709 let's say, 335 00:14:43.710 --> 00:14:44.849 the technical bits. 336 00:14:45.005 --> 00:14:46.068 You learned about the policy. 337 00:14:46.979 --> 00:14:57.949 But you also needed someone to teach you about the financial aspects and all the process and the red tape and how to actually talk to the financiers, 338 00:14:58.231 --> 00:14:58.449 right? 339 00:14:59.090 --> 00:14:59.410 Yeah, 340 00:14:59.411 --> 00:14:59.793 exactly. 341 00:14:59.794 --> 00:15:00.996 How to speak their same language, 342 00:15:01.035 --> 00:15:02.356 because they speak a very, 343 00:15:02.410 --> 00:15:03.301 very different language, 344 00:15:03.332 --> 00:15:04.317 as we already mentioned, 345 00:15:04.817 --> 00:15:12.301 because they are used to certain kind of KPIs that may not be the one that the community, 346 00:15:12.863 --> 00:15:15.145 especially at its seeding stage, 347 00:15:15.895 --> 00:15:16.254 can see. 348 00:15:17.259 --> 00:15:17.379 Yeah, 349 00:15:17.700 --> 00:15:18.060 exactly. 350 00:15:18.801 --> 00:15:19.502 That's really, 351 00:15:19.701 --> 00:15:20.283 really interesting. 352 00:15:20.284 --> 00:15:25.408 So what I understand from the ACE project is that you managed to work on different streams, 353 00:15:25.447 --> 00:15:27.392 like the learning bit, 354 00:15:27.627 --> 00:15:28.674 the learning phase, 355 00:15:28.869 --> 00:15:29.549 peer-to-peer, 356 00:15:30.010 --> 00:15:31.752 very human-to-human, 357 00:15:31.830 --> 00:15:32.416 authentic, 358 00:15:32.572 --> 00:15:34.197 and based on actual challenges. 359 00:15:34.275 --> 00:15:37.885 So that must have been a really interesting part of the work. 360 00:15:38.275 --> 00:15:42.478 And then also the kind of how to make this stand in place, 361 00:15:42.557 --> 00:15:46.103 how to navigate this red tape and build the trust of... 362 00:15:46.727 --> 00:15:48.570 the financial institutions. 363 00:15:49.330 --> 00:15:49.769 And yeah, 364 00:15:50.031 --> 00:15:58.636 so that everybody could be around the same table and understand that some of the projects would succeed and some of them would fail, 365 00:15:59.136 --> 00:16:00.683 which gets back to the third point, 366 00:16:00.918 --> 00:16:01.121 right? 367 00:16:01.285 --> 00:16:01.558 Yeah, 368 00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:02.261 exactly. 369 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:10.011 And I think what's really interesting as well with this community and energy financing teams is that they create pipelines of projects. 370 00:16:10.168 --> 00:16:15.496 They bundle them into something that ultimately is attractive to a financier. 371 00:16:15.699 --> 00:16:15.980 that is 372 00:16:16.443 --> 00:16:18.065 used to looking at larger volumes, 373 00:16:18.545 --> 00:16:18.786 you know, 374 00:16:18.846 --> 00:16:19.766 looking at megawatts, 375 00:16:19.868 --> 00:16:20.547 gigawatts. 376 00:16:21.227 --> 00:16:21.348 So, 377 00:16:21.426 --> 00:16:21.668 you know, 378 00:16:21.727 --> 00:16:26.450 if your small neighborhood community puts out like a 100 kilowatt solar, 379 00:16:26.692 --> 00:16:31.957 that's probably not very interesting to finance here because there's not like a big investment there to mobilize. 380 00:16:32.567 --> 00:16:38.161 Whereas if you have a federation that creates a community energy financing scheme that bundles 381 00:16:38.801 --> 00:16:39.723 10, 15, 382 00:16:39.973 --> 00:16:43.348 50 of these small solar projects into a portfolio, 383 00:16:44.270 --> 00:16:45.426 it both spreads the risk. 384 00:16:45.815 --> 00:16:49.258 and it creates an attractive financing opportunity for financiers. 385 00:16:50.742 --> 00:16:51.101 Yeah, 386 00:16:51.961 --> 00:16:54.508 that's so interesting because again you move from the, 387 00:16:54.601 --> 00:16:54.961 let's say, 388 00:16:55.164 --> 00:17:09.304 very local community energy that will be like around the neighborhood or village or something into something that is so much bigger but works as a proper social network in a way. 389 00:17:09.976 --> 00:17:10.117 Yeah, 390 00:17:10.633 --> 00:17:10.867 exactly. 391 00:17:11.586 --> 00:17:14.617 Yeah and that must have been quite 392 00:17:15.031 --> 00:17:22.950 also a big task from you guys at Resco.eu to put yourself in the shoes of the financiers, 393 00:17:23.630 --> 00:17:25.974 like to try to understand what they were looking for, 394 00:17:26.372 --> 00:17:26.614 right? 395 00:17:27.231 --> 00:17:27.356 Yeah, 396 00:17:27.614 --> 00:17:27.731 yeah. 397 00:17:28.255 --> 00:17:31.208 And I think there's still a lot of work to do in that sense. 398 00:17:31.270 --> 00:17:33.849 I think there's still a lot of capacity building that's needed. 399 00:17:34.802 --> 00:17:37.692 One of the things we are asking from the commission is some sort of, 400 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:39.255 on a tape perhaps, 401 00:17:39.458 --> 00:17:40.536 an annual dialogue, 402 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:43.036 some sort of platform where we can connects. 403 00:17:44.047 --> 00:17:48.151 financiers or specifically ethical and alternative financiers with the community energy sector. 404 00:17:48.713 --> 00:17:52.334 There can be more of a structured dialogue that the stakeholders can come together. 405 00:17:53.155 --> 00:17:55.740 We do see some opportunities as well in the upcoming 406 00:17:56.139 --> 00:17:56.701 EU budget. 407 00:17:57.217 --> 00:18:12.373 We have made some proposals as part also of the ACE project on how the European Investment Bank can play a greater role in unlocking funding for energy communities by creating some sort of InvestEU for energy community. 408 00:18:12.498 --> 00:18:12.608 So... 409 00:18:13.247 --> 00:18:17.212 You look at the European Investment Bank creating a guarantee scheme. 410 00:18:17.329 --> 00:18:19.712 It guarantees national banks. 411 00:18:20.235 --> 00:18:24.939 And then the national banks lend to energy communities because through the guarantee, 412 00:18:24.978 --> 00:18:25.860 they reduce the risk. 413 00:18:26.337 --> 00:18:26.540 Okay. 414 00:18:27.118 --> 00:18:29.556 So there's different ways to go about this. 415 00:18:29.790 --> 00:18:36.009 And we believe at Rescoop that there is a role both for this bottom-up community energy, 416 00:18:36.290 --> 00:18:36.587 let's say, 417 00:18:36.712 --> 00:18:37.478 financing schemes. 418 00:18:37.571 --> 00:18:39.087 But there's also a role for... 419 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:44.562 policy and the European Investment Bank to step in and de-risk these projects. 420 00:18:45.386 --> 00:18:45.605 Okay, 421 00:18:46.206 --> 00:18:48.671 and does that already exist in other sectors? 422 00:18:49.507 --> 00:18:49.992 We're seeing it. 423 00:18:50.085 --> 00:18:50.968 There's an 424 00:18:51.327 --> 00:18:52.609 SME window in the 425 00:18:53.015 --> 00:18:53.890 InvestEU scheme, 426 00:18:54.374 --> 00:18:56.320 which is built on the same premise. 427 00:18:56.398 --> 00:18:59.242 Let's say that you're looking at smaller companies, 428 00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:01.601 they usually don't have easy access to credit, 429 00:19:02.117 --> 00:19:02.929 so yeah, 430 00:19:03.023 --> 00:19:03.960 how can you make it work? 431 00:19:04.038 --> 00:19:06.132 And it has been a quite successful program, 432 00:19:06.210 --> 00:19:08.773 so we don't don't want to reinvent the wheel here. 433 00:19:09.351 --> 00:19:09.892 Okay, 434 00:19:09.912 --> 00:19:10.133 yeah, 435 00:19:10.213 --> 00:19:11.215 that's really interesting. 436 00:19:11.837 --> 00:19:18.667 So you've mobilized 738 million euros to new and existing community energy financial schemes. 437 00:19:20.191 --> 00:19:21.812 How did it work in practice? 438 00:19:22.953 --> 00:19:24.574 Maybe you have an example to share. 439 00:19:25.738 --> 00:19:25.875 Yeah, 440 00:19:26.476 --> 00:19:26.758 I mean, 441 00:19:26.996 --> 00:19:29.199 we've already briefly talked about the Spanish and the 442 00:19:29.558 --> 00:19:30.238 Dutch examples, 443 00:19:30.301 --> 00:19:30.722 but maybe 444 00:19:31.543 --> 00:19:32.199 I can also, 445 00:19:33.941 --> 00:19:34.246 perhaps, 446 00:19:34.247 --> 00:19:34.441 you know, 447 00:19:34.887 --> 00:19:36.066 some people are listening and they're saying, 448 00:19:36.144 --> 00:19:36.472 okay, 449 00:19:36.566 --> 00:19:36.801 you know, 450 00:19:36.926 --> 00:19:40.785 big Western European countries with mature markets. 451 00:19:41.207 --> 00:19:41.769 But as I said, 452 00:19:41.770 --> 00:19:41.988 you know, 453 00:19:41.989 --> 00:19:46.097 we also have financing schemes being set up in Croatia and Romania. 454 00:19:46.676 --> 00:19:47.722 and there it's um 455 00:19:48.783 --> 00:19:52.625 It's still kind of in the setup phase of simpler, 456 00:19:52.668 --> 00:19:52.926 let's say, 457 00:19:52.988 --> 00:19:54.469 more small-scale schemes, 458 00:19:55.211 --> 00:19:56.992 such as in Romania, 459 00:19:57.172 --> 00:19:57.773 basically, 460 00:19:58.773 --> 00:20:04.219 the community energy financing scheme there is people collecting, 461 00:20:04.258 --> 00:20:04.492 let's say, 462 00:20:04.539 --> 00:20:12.664 investment through the cooperative and installing a collective solar park on top of a multi-apartment building or a public building, 463 00:20:13.008 --> 00:20:14.742 so it's rooftop solar in both cases. 464 00:20:16.098 --> 00:20:18.061 So they pay for the investment upfront, 465 00:20:18.520 --> 00:20:19.221 they install it, 466 00:20:19.522 --> 00:20:28.010 and then they get their money back with some sort of interest after a few years through the savings that the inhabitants of that building incur. 467 00:20:28.932 --> 00:20:30.510 So they inhabit, 468 00:20:30.534 --> 00:20:30.776 you know, 469 00:20:31.034 --> 00:20:32.768 let's say the inhabitants of the multi-apartment building, 470 00:20:32.830 --> 00:20:37.034 they pay less for electricity because of the solar and through the savings, 471 00:20:37.205 --> 00:20:38.627 they pay back the cooperative. 472 00:20:39.221 --> 00:20:39.377 Okay. 473 00:20:39.846 --> 00:20:40.487 So again, 474 00:20:40.565 --> 00:20:42.330 it's some sort of system of looking, 475 00:20:42.549 --> 00:20:42.909 thinking, 476 00:20:42.987 --> 00:20:43.190 okay, 477 00:20:43.237 --> 00:20:45.674 how do I create a sort of revolving 478 00:20:46.162 --> 00:20:46.803 Yeah, 479 00:20:46.883 --> 00:20:47.604 sustainable, 480 00:20:47.623 --> 00:20:47.943 let's say, 481 00:20:48.123 --> 00:20:52.330 financing schemes by cooperatives for community energy projects. 482 00:20:52.850 --> 00:20:54.010 And it improves investment, 483 00:20:54.111 --> 00:20:54.369 right? 484 00:20:54.510 --> 00:20:55.674 Because if the community, 485 00:20:55.869 --> 00:20:58.916 the people who invested know they will get their money back, 486 00:21:00.072 --> 00:21:08.330 they may feel that it's more advantageous to leave their money to the community rather than sleep at the bank. 487 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:08.924 Yeah, 488 00:21:09.018 --> 00:21:11.408 where it's also devalued because of all of the inflation. 489 00:21:11.611 --> 00:21:11.752 Yeah, 490 00:21:12.033 --> 00:21:12.814 exactly. 491 00:21:13.787 --> 00:21:13.907 Yeah, 492 00:21:13.947 --> 00:21:14.067 no, 493 00:21:14.187 --> 00:21:14.587 exactly. 494 00:21:14.787 --> 00:21:15.068 And 495 00:21:15.950 --> 00:21:16.188 I mean, 496 00:21:16.370 --> 00:21:16.549 look, 497 00:21:16.828 --> 00:21:18.313 we are facing a huge funding gap. 498 00:21:18.953 --> 00:21:24.235 Mario Draghi has said that we need 800 billion euros of additional investment every year. 499 00:21:24.774 --> 00:21:26.000 Just for climate, 500 00:21:26.141 --> 00:21:31.125 the European Commission estimates a 400 billion annual gap. 501 00:21:31.188 --> 00:21:32.328 We need city central board. 502 00:21:33.110 --> 00:21:35.282 We need all sorts of investments. 503 00:21:35.344 --> 00:21:41.719 And we're hearing that the commission is about to come out with an energy investment strategy now in Q3 2025. 504 00:21:42.122 --> 00:21:43.782 And this is our argument towards the Commission. 505 00:21:44.063 --> 00:21:45.822 Let the citizens be part of this. 506 00:21:46.104 --> 00:21:49.162 They do really have a very strong potential to mobilize capital. 507 00:21:49.822 --> 00:21:51.861 This is not part of the ACE project per se, 508 00:21:52.025 --> 00:21:53.643 but in Belgium right now, 509 00:21:53.807 --> 00:22:00.721 there's a really big movement where all of the cooperatives of the country came together to create a secondary cooperative called SICUP, 510 00:22:01.346 --> 00:22:03.143 which is claiming a 10% 511 00:22:03.299 --> 00:22:08.830 stake in the new offshore wind tender that's going to come out in the next months. 512 00:22:09.282 --> 00:22:12.085 So they've already managed to mobilize over 2 million euros. 513 00:22:12.565 --> 00:22:12.764 Wow. 514 00:22:13.507 --> 00:22:14.007 Thousands, 515 00:22:14.108 --> 00:22:15.929 tens of thousands of Belgian citizens. 516 00:22:16.030 --> 00:22:16.147 So, 517 00:22:16.710 --> 00:22:16.948 you know, 518 00:22:17.089 --> 00:22:18.132 it's really, 519 00:22:18.210 --> 00:22:19.475 I think the potential is there. 520 00:22:20.030 --> 00:22:21.835 And exactly because cooperatives, 521 00:22:21.858 --> 00:22:22.811 they also have the trust. 522 00:22:23.874 --> 00:22:26.155 There is that trust within the members of the cooperative. 523 00:22:26.296 --> 00:22:27.155 It's easier to say, 524 00:22:27.280 --> 00:22:27.452 okay, 525 00:22:27.499 --> 00:22:27.702 guys, 526 00:22:27.733 --> 00:22:28.202 we're going, 527 00:22:28.843 --> 00:22:29.483 give us your money. 528 00:22:29.577 --> 00:22:30.968 We're going to invest it somewhere ethically. 529 00:22:31.139 --> 00:22:32.171 There's going to be returns. 530 00:22:32.624 --> 00:22:32.749 Yeah, 531 00:22:32.858 --> 00:22:36.905 especially at a time where there is so much volatility on the market, 532 00:22:36.983 --> 00:22:38.030 so much mistrust. 533 00:22:38.093 --> 00:22:38.483 in you 534 00:22:38.870 --> 00:22:41.252 how governments will be using the money, 535 00:22:41.313 --> 00:22:41.432 etc. 536 00:22:41.692 --> 00:22:41.813 But 537 00:22:42.915 --> 00:22:43.176 I mean, 538 00:22:43.215 --> 00:22:47.340 you said that this kind of model also worked in Romania and Croatia, 539 00:22:47.598 --> 00:22:52.223 which may be countries where people have less liquidity in general. 540 00:22:52.864 --> 00:22:53.223 But you know, 541 00:22:53.645 --> 00:23:00.957 what happens for the people who cannot actually spend any money on the community energy project? 542 00:23:00.989 --> 00:23:05.864 Because if being part of it means that you can have to invest in it, 543 00:23:06.161 --> 00:23:06.957 How do you make that work? 544 00:23:07.332 --> 00:23:07.801 I know of a... 545 00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:28.386 some projects who are kind of giving away some of the shares etc but is it a problem right at this stage no first of all thank you for posing that question because i think we need to keep having that reflexivity within the the community engine movement that just because it's community doesn't mean it's always inclusive so yeah that's that's the baseline but 546 00:23:28.417 --> 00:23:36.823 yeah no i think there's all sorts of models of of solidarity that we see in in greece people can basically buy the shares of 547 00:23:37.082 --> 00:23:40.666 energy vulnerable households so that they can join the community for free. 548 00:23:42.107 --> 00:23:42.787 In France, 549 00:23:42.849 --> 00:23:43.189 we have 550 00:23:43.568 --> 00:23:52.716 Enercoop, which is a cooperative supplier that charges a small solidarity levy to its customers and then uses that to reinvest into actions for energy poverty. 551 00:23:53.560 --> 00:23:54.779 There's all sorts of ways. 552 00:23:55.373 --> 00:23:56.185 But here, 553 00:23:56.498 --> 00:24:03.201 this is definitely somewhere where the EU can also play a role in supporting communities that specifically have, 554 00:24:04.107 --> 00:24:04.388 let's say, 555 00:24:04.451 --> 00:24:06.591 an orientation towards attacking energy poverty. 556 00:24:07.695 --> 00:24:07.815 Okay. 557 00:24:07.895 --> 00:24:08.315 One big, 558 00:24:08.615 --> 00:24:08.896 let's say, 559 00:24:08.956 --> 00:24:10.338 way is the Social Climate Fund. 560 00:24:10.818 --> 00:24:11.080 Yeah. 561 00:24:11.099 --> 00:24:11.959 It's upcoming. 562 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:12.197 You know, 563 00:24:12.221 --> 00:24:15.478 we're going to have it in operation in a couple of months, 564 00:24:15.479 --> 00:24:17.986 in January 2026. 565 00:24:17.987 --> 00:24:23.994 And Rescoop is now coordinating over 40 organizations in creating the Social Climate Fund tracker. 566 00:24:24.598 --> 00:24:28.782 When we rate and analyze the different social climate plans of the member states to look, 567 00:24:29.223 --> 00:24:29.442 okay, 568 00:24:29.645 --> 00:24:30.063 are they, 569 00:24:30.825 --> 00:24:31.063 you know, 570 00:24:31.285 --> 00:24:31.907 are they planning, 571 00:24:31.926 --> 00:24:32.465 for example, 572 00:24:32.668 --> 00:24:35.848 any actions on energy communities and energy poverty? 573 00:24:35.910 --> 00:24:36.910 That's one of our criteria. 574 00:24:37.473 --> 00:24:37.590 Yeah. 575 00:24:37.653 --> 00:24:41.270 So that's definitely a fund that we're really closely looking at. 576 00:24:42.129 --> 00:24:45.817 And I think another good example is using grants. 577 00:24:46.145 --> 00:24:49.848 It could be also from the Social Climate Fund or through LIFE or other programs. 578 00:24:50.504 --> 00:24:52.879 Using grants to de-risk those first... 579 00:24:53.254 --> 00:25:11.831 stages of project development like like what you remember what we talked about in the netherlands with the community energy financing that's always the most risky part let's say stages of project development those first stages where you don't know are you going to get the permit paying the tech you know the engineers for the feasibility studies and all of that and 580 00:25:12.393 --> 00:25:19.143 as you correctly point out vulnerable households don't have the leeway to to to take that risk to say okay now I'm going to put 581 00:25:19.602 --> 00:25:25.147 500 euros in this wind energy project and a way to see if it's going to be accepted and so on. 582 00:25:25.909 --> 00:25:30.612 So another really good example that's coming from the EU is the Enercom facility. 583 00:25:31.331 --> 00:25:32.354 This is a really big, 584 00:25:32.894 --> 00:25:37.714 more than 7 million euro program by CINEA, 585 00:25:37.761 --> 00:25:38.667 by the European Commission, 586 00:25:39.261 --> 00:25:48.354 to basically provide 45,000 euro lump sum grants to over 140 energy communities from across the EU. 587 00:25:49.282 --> 00:25:56.150 And the recipient community basically uses that money to create a robust business plan, 588 00:25:56.829 --> 00:25:57.072 you know, 589 00:25:57.111 --> 00:25:59.994 to kind of take the first steps of setting up a community. 590 00:26:00.634 --> 00:26:00.994 And again, 591 00:26:01.072 --> 00:26:05.134 this de-risking in the form of grants for the first stages is quite important. 592 00:26:06.345 --> 00:26:06.798 But again, 593 00:26:06.861 --> 00:26:07.001 yeah, 594 00:26:07.095 --> 00:26:09.345 we know grants are a scarce resource. 595 00:26:09.548 --> 00:26:12.798 We're not asking that all communities get grants. 596 00:26:13.173 --> 00:26:16.454 But especially if we're looking at communities that tackle energy poverty, 597 00:26:16.814 --> 00:26:18.408 or if there is a rationale. 598 00:26:18.638 --> 00:26:22.542 there's a logical basis to provide them with these de-risking grants. 599 00:26:23.101 --> 00:26:23.421 Yeah, 600 00:26:23.422 --> 00:26:24.202 especially if it's, 601 00:26:24.323 --> 00:26:24.624 let's say, 602 00:26:24.643 --> 00:26:26.104 part of a broader conversation, 603 00:26:26.226 --> 00:26:28.765 if you have social organizations or, 604 00:26:29.288 --> 00:26:29.710 let's say, 605 00:26:29.913 --> 00:26:31.952 the municipality on board. 606 00:26:32.476 --> 00:26:32.694 I mean, 607 00:26:32.695 --> 00:26:37.897 I've been involved in another EU project that works also on exactly this, 608 00:26:38.022 --> 00:26:38.476 like with the, 609 00:26:39.116 --> 00:26:39.522 it's called 610 00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:42.601 PowerUp, and it's coordinated by Energy Cities. 611 00:26:42.616 --> 00:26:45.647 And I know some of the members of RISC-OP EU are... 612 00:26:46.539 --> 00:27:03.822 also part of power because there is the Belgian member which is part of it and really one of the key aspects is the fact that the community energy yeah of course you need to people who are motivated to make it happen but you also need to make 613 00:27:03.837 --> 00:27:15.212 the trust happen and that doesn't happen overnight you need uh really like uh a lot of let's say granular work and a lot of 614 00:27:15.518 --> 00:27:17.398 time speaking to the people, 615 00:27:17.539 --> 00:27:18.439 to the right people, 616 00:27:18.578 --> 00:27:19.957 to the right intermediaries, 617 00:27:20.617 --> 00:27:21.258 including, 618 00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:23.059 as you just explained, 619 00:27:23.199 --> 00:27:24.879 the financial intermediaries. 620 00:27:24.941 --> 00:27:28.199 Because there might be some processes that they don't know. 621 00:27:28.324 --> 00:27:31.301 There might be some grants that they are not aware of. 622 00:27:31.605 --> 00:27:33.121 There might be also some, 623 00:27:33.746 --> 00:27:35.480 maybe even in the village, 624 00:27:35.527 --> 00:27:36.027 the local, 625 00:27:36.340 --> 00:27:37.105 the area, 626 00:27:38.668 --> 00:27:42.637 there are some people who work in banks that would be enthusiastic, 627 00:27:42.668 --> 00:27:44.027 but they don't know how to mobilize it. 628 00:27:44.028 --> 00:27:44.137 So... 629 00:27:44.506 --> 00:27:51.451 I feel that this part of trying to assemble all the little pieces is so important. 630 00:27:51.494 --> 00:27:51.713 I mean, 631 00:27:52.033 --> 00:27:55.920 the podcast we just released like two weeks ago was with 632 00:27:56.420 --> 00:27:57.115 Junior and Bangala, 633 00:27:57.162 --> 00:28:00.959 who worked on energy community as a kind of horizon approach. 634 00:28:01.147 --> 00:28:04.303 So we are connected all like trees, 635 00:28:04.350 --> 00:28:05.068 all like plants, 636 00:28:05.943 --> 00:28:07.272 all like fungi, 637 00:28:08.287 --> 00:28:08.928 like horizon. 638 00:28:09.615 --> 00:28:09.897 And yeah, 639 00:28:10.131 --> 00:28:13.131 that's really nice to kind of see how that... 640 00:28:13.574 --> 00:28:16.717 can work in practice through financial education, 641 00:28:16.797 --> 00:28:18.158 financial mobilization, 642 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:19.338 and so on. 643 00:28:19.861 --> 00:28:25.924 Do you feel that the banks that have been involved in the project or could be involved in the project, 644 00:28:26.408 --> 00:28:32.994 do you think there is enough education or awareness on the side of this kind of financial institutions? 645 00:28:33.010 --> 00:28:34.135 Because on my side, 646 00:28:34.228 --> 00:28:39.697 I see very much like how much a risk climate change is for the insurers. 647 00:28:40.041 --> 00:28:41.244 So they would be smart. 648 00:28:41.694 --> 00:28:58.670 to kind of invest in this kind of things as you know some kind of mitigation adaptation you know prevention of risk approach right but is it actually the case also so banks financial institutions are they seeing the opportunity there yeah 649 00:28:58.873 --> 00:29:09.920 i think they're seeing it more and more we are starting now a collaboration also in the context of the ace project with the federation of of ethical and alternative banks for them. 650 00:29:10.811 --> 00:29:14.359 We're starting this matchmaking between members of EBEA, 651 00:29:14.419 --> 00:29:14.741 like, 652 00:29:14.800 --> 00:29:15.042 you know, 653 00:29:15.081 --> 00:29:16.386 ethical and alternative financiers, 654 00:29:16.925 --> 00:29:20.519 and members of Brescu to exactly facilitate these connections. 655 00:29:22.290 --> 00:29:22.670 As I said, 656 00:29:23.331 --> 00:29:24.092 in some countries, 657 00:29:24.252 --> 00:29:25.413 particularly in Western Europe, 658 00:29:25.454 --> 00:29:27.114 there is a very long tradition of, 659 00:29:27.274 --> 00:29:27.954 like in Germany, 660 00:29:27.977 --> 00:29:28.638 in Belgium, 661 00:29:29.298 --> 00:29:34.540 of banks actually speaking with energy communities because they know there's... 662 00:29:35.316 --> 00:29:36.858 There's solid financial returns, 663 00:29:37.018 --> 00:29:40.520 there's good reputational gains to be gained out of it, 664 00:29:41.063 --> 00:29:46.067 there's opening up to a completely new clientele. 665 00:29:46.567 --> 00:29:49.590 And if you kind of lend to a community energy project, 666 00:29:49.754 --> 00:29:51.192 you're lending to tens, 667 00:29:51.332 --> 00:29:52.395 if not hundreds of people. 668 00:29:52.848 --> 00:29:53.848 So you're potentially, 669 00:29:53.957 --> 00:29:54.192 you know, 670 00:29:54.207 --> 00:29:59.082 kind of raising awareness about your product to a whole new segment of society. 671 00:29:59.083 --> 00:29:59.973 So marketing-wise, 672 00:30:00.004 --> 00:30:00.645 it's interesting. 673 00:30:00.948 --> 00:30:01.068 Yeah, 674 00:30:01.208 --> 00:30:01.648 exactly. 675 00:30:01.728 --> 00:30:02.228 And again, 676 00:30:02.488 --> 00:30:03.828 ESG-wise, 677 00:30:03.988 --> 00:30:05.109 reputational-wise, 678 00:30:05.551 --> 00:30:06.808 I think it would make a lot of sense. 679 00:30:07.031 --> 00:30:07.168 Yeah. 680 00:30:07.551 --> 00:30:07.808 I mean, 681 00:30:08.008 --> 00:30:10.070 when we think of the ESG criteria, 682 00:30:10.211 --> 00:30:11.328 so environmental, 683 00:30:11.430 --> 00:30:12.469 social and governance, 684 00:30:13.234 --> 00:30:20.312 let's say that the environmental part seems to be way more understood than the social and the governance. 685 00:30:20.375 --> 00:30:24.734 But if the money is also going to a community energy project, 686 00:30:25.031 --> 00:30:25.156 the 687 00:30:25.687 --> 00:30:27.437 SMG, so the social and governance, 688 00:30:28.368 --> 00:30:30.590 profoundly embedded in the model, 689 00:30:30.990 --> 00:30:31.230 right? 690 00:30:31.271 --> 00:30:36.898 So that is kind of solving also this part of the triangle, 691 00:30:37.234 --> 00:30:37.437 right? 692 00:30:37.539 --> 00:30:37.656 Yeah, 693 00:30:38.219 --> 00:30:38.617 exactly. 694 00:30:38.695 --> 00:30:40.578 Because the governance, 695 00:30:41.461 --> 00:30:42.781 it's multi-level governance, 696 00:30:42.805 --> 00:30:44.164 it's democratic governance, 697 00:30:44.165 --> 00:30:46.125 you have all sorts of people participating, 698 00:30:46.250 --> 00:30:47.484 often it's one member, 699 00:30:47.562 --> 00:30:48.109 one vote, 700 00:30:48.234 --> 00:30:50.422 because many times these are cooperatives. 701 00:30:50.953 --> 00:30:52.328 And then the societal part, 702 00:30:52.812 --> 00:30:52.937 yeah, 703 00:30:53.297 --> 00:30:55.391 you do have inclusion of all of our households, 704 00:30:55.392 --> 00:30:56.641 you do have inclusion of... 705 00:30:57.056 --> 00:30:58.278 underrepresented groups, 706 00:30:59.159 --> 00:31:05.749 you do have all sorts of actions of giving back and reinvesting your revenues to local community actions. 707 00:31:06.108 --> 00:31:06.444 So yeah, 708 00:31:06.584 --> 00:31:08.584 there's all sorts of social benefits there. 709 00:31:09.592 --> 00:31:10.209 Really inspiring. 710 00:31:10.413 --> 00:31:13.045 I'm looking forward to the event in a couple of weeks. 711 00:31:13.092 --> 00:31:15.280 So the ACE final event, 712 00:31:15.452 --> 00:31:15.920 you will be, 713 00:31:16.452 --> 00:31:18.295 I will be moderating most of the conversation, 714 00:31:18.342 --> 00:31:22.514 but you will be moderating one session on the financial tools. 715 00:31:23.124 --> 00:31:25.311 And I will be there like reporting. 716 00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:28.101 with the Energetic podcast on that day. 717 00:31:28.363 --> 00:31:33.406 So our listeners will be able to tune in and learn a few things. 718 00:31:33.910 --> 00:31:35.488 I wanted to ask you, 719 00:31:36.269 --> 00:31:36.551 I mean, 720 00:31:36.707 --> 00:31:41.957 now to kind of look ahead because ACE is ending in November. 721 00:31:43.222 --> 00:31:44.285 What happens next? 722 00:31:44.941 --> 00:31:50.191 How can the tools and partnership you created will survive and scale? 723 00:31:51.238 --> 00:31:52.363 We want to keep going for sure. 724 00:31:52.832 --> 00:31:54.676 The commission is coming forward with... 725 00:31:56.561 --> 00:31:58.023 the so-called citizen energy package, 726 00:31:58.103 --> 00:32:03.931 which is going to be a raft of measures to boost citizen energy at the member state level. 727 00:32:04.626 --> 00:32:06.212 We don't know yet the architecture, 728 00:32:06.267 --> 00:32:08.431 but we assume it's going to provide technical assistance, 729 00:32:08.556 --> 00:32:10.173 funding to member states, 730 00:32:10.314 --> 00:32:11.314 to municipalities, 731 00:32:11.315 --> 00:32:11.533 you know, 732 00:32:11.751 --> 00:32:13.283 to create community energy projects. 733 00:32:13.814 --> 00:32:14.454 And we really, 734 00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:17.439 in our submission to the consultation as ResCoop, 735 00:32:17.517 --> 00:32:18.689 we really highlight that, 736 00:32:19.189 --> 00:32:19.361 look, 737 00:32:19.970 --> 00:32:21.751 here's the results of this project. 738 00:32:22.064 --> 00:32:24.408 This is what federations can do in terms of creating. 739 00:32:24.884 --> 00:32:29.688 community energy financing schemes in terms of really mobilizing capital, 740 00:32:30.168 --> 00:32:31.250 implementing projects. 741 00:32:31.430 --> 00:32:32.410 So acknowledge them, 742 00:32:33.133 --> 00:32:33.735 work with them, 743 00:32:34.235 --> 00:32:36.313 instruct the member states to work with them, 744 00:32:36.860 --> 00:32:38.680 and let's keep expanding. 745 00:32:39.016 --> 00:32:49.735 Let's make sure that there's a strong community energy financing scheme in every country and that they could even kind of support each other through cross-border investments, 746 00:32:50.172 --> 00:32:52.844 which is also becoming more and more a priority of the EU. 747 00:32:54.004 --> 00:32:57.669 Is it the message you would like to give to policymakers? 748 00:32:57.868 --> 00:32:58.227 Like, 749 00:32:59.411 --> 00:33:05.856 make sure you actually use and try not to reinvent the wheel because we've been doing some great work. 750 00:33:06.794 --> 00:33:06.919 Yeah, 751 00:33:07.036 --> 00:33:07.161 no, 752 00:33:07.216 --> 00:33:07.981 I think this is what, 753 00:33:08.458 --> 00:33:11.255 if you hear the Commissioner for Energy, 754 00:33:12.208 --> 00:33:12.661 like Mr. 755 00:33:12.723 --> 00:33:13.208 Jorgensen, 756 00:33:13.286 --> 00:33:15.442 or if you hear Mr. 757 00:33:15.505 --> 00:33:15.880 Hoekstra, 758 00:33:15.926 --> 00:33:16.161 Mrs. 759 00:33:16.286 --> 00:33:16.645 Rivera, 760 00:33:16.723 --> 00:33:19.176 like any of the commissioners working on climate and energy, 761 00:33:19.426 --> 00:33:20.208 they will say, 762 00:33:20.755 --> 00:33:21.708 we need all hands on deck. 763 00:33:21.709 --> 00:33:28.431 We need to mobilize massive amounts of investment for the challenges that lie ahead in terms of decarbonization and also competitiveness, 764 00:33:28.489 --> 00:33:32.028 because right now we all agree that decarbonization equals competitiveness. 765 00:33:32.833 --> 00:33:36.130 And we cannot afford to leave the series behind. 766 00:33:36.231 --> 00:33:39.333 I think that would be the concluding message. 767 00:33:39.989 --> 00:33:40.114 No, 768 00:33:40.739 --> 00:33:40.974 I mean, 769 00:33:42.192 --> 00:33:44.396 that's so important and that's so true, 770 00:33:44.474 --> 00:33:46.708 especially when we have, 771 00:33:47.052 --> 00:33:47.411 let's say, 772 00:33:47.474 --> 00:33:50.802 people who are like actively trying to. 773 00:33:51.476 --> 00:34:08.044 undermine this kind of science-based knowledge around the fact that we need to decarbonize as fast as possible and socially fear as possible right so that's um that's extremely important yeah at the same time you 774 00:34:08.122 --> 00:34:20.325 are you yourself are have been moving to have just moved to italy and you will realize that the community energy landscape may be very different so that's going to be also quite an interesting learning curve. 775 00:34:21.188 --> 00:34:26.429 perhaps for you to discover really from the ground what is happening in some member states, 776 00:34:26.468 --> 00:34:26.690 right? 777 00:34:27.435 --> 00:34:27.956 Yeah, 778 00:34:28.276 --> 00:34:31.838 we have some of the strongest members of our network are actually from Italy, 779 00:34:31.878 --> 00:34:32.659 like Enostra, 780 00:34:32.702 --> 00:34:33.100 for example, 781 00:34:33.101 --> 00:34:34.401 which is a cooperative supplier. 782 00:34:35.163 --> 00:34:36.206 But definitely, 783 00:34:36.463 --> 00:34:37.104 I agree that, 784 00:34:37.628 --> 00:34:39.526 and it goes back to the beginning of our conversation, 785 00:34:39.604 --> 00:34:42.729 we need the EU to bridge with the local, 786 00:34:43.010 --> 00:34:45.971 to have our feet on the ground and to understand the realities, 787 00:34:46.174 --> 00:34:47.815 to then report back to the EU, 788 00:34:48.409 --> 00:34:48.612 you know, 789 00:34:48.613 --> 00:34:49.581 to keep that cycle up. 790 00:34:50.393 --> 00:34:50.659 Yeah, 791 00:34:50.831 --> 00:34:50.956 no, 792 00:34:51.081 --> 00:34:54.003 that's a different topic for a different conversation, 793 00:34:54.096 --> 00:34:55.268 but let's say that 794 00:34:55.967 --> 00:34:59.091 It's such an important topic. 795 00:34:59.229 --> 00:35:01.932 It's such an inspiring conversation. 796 00:35:03.155 --> 00:35:03.272 And, 797 00:35:03.273 --> 00:35:03.495 you know, 798 00:35:03.534 --> 00:35:07.475 I think it's really important to share the kind of best practice, 799 00:35:07.538 --> 00:35:11.780 just the fact that you mobilized 738 million euros. 800 00:35:12.046 --> 00:35:12.280 I mean, 801 00:35:12.608 --> 00:35:16.390 the figures I was looking into online was like 20 million. 802 00:35:16.405 --> 00:35:16.671 I mean, 803 00:35:16.780 --> 00:35:18.374 that's insane. 804 00:35:18.671 --> 00:35:19.546 Congratulations. 805 00:35:21.171 --> 00:35:21.530 Thank you. 806 00:35:21.733 --> 00:35:22.077 Yeah. 807 00:35:22.078 --> 00:35:22.311 I mean, 808 00:35:22.999 --> 00:35:23.311 not me, 809 00:35:23.561 --> 00:35:24.530 the whole team. 810 00:35:24.577 --> 00:35:25.155 and the the 811 00:35:25.491 --> 00:35:28.334 hundreds of thousands of citizens that have invested into these schemes. 812 00:35:28.373 --> 00:35:28.633 But yeah. 813 00:35:29.174 --> 00:35:29.375 Okay. 814 00:35:29.536 --> 00:35:30.496 So in a couple of weeks, 815 00:35:30.516 --> 00:35:37.524 we're going to celebrate them and really celebrate this first big milestone, 816 00:35:37.586 --> 00:35:37.782 right? 817 00:35:37.805 --> 00:35:40.547 Because it's just a milestone and there is much more coming, 818 00:35:40.649 --> 00:35:40.829 right? 819 00:35:41.594 --> 00:35:41.969 Exactly. 820 00:35:42.422 --> 00:35:42.625 Yeah. 821 00:35:42.626 --> 00:35:42.844 Okay. 822 00:35:43.532 --> 00:35:45.313 So please tune in for the next episode. 823 00:35:45.532 --> 00:35:46.579 And thank you so much, 824 00:35:46.610 --> 00:35:46.860 Chris, 825 00:35:47.297 --> 00:35:47.469 from 826 00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:49.891 Rescope for your time today. 827 00:35:49.969 --> 00:35:51.157 It's been really enlightening. 828 00:35:51.391 --> 00:35:51.985 Thank you so much. 829 00:35:52.438 --> 00:35:52.750 Thank you. 830 00:35:54.399 --> 00:35:57.342 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. 831 00:35:57.602 --> 00:36:05.491 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward thinking mouths out there. 832 00:36:06.147 --> 00:36:07.030 I'm Maureen Canales, 833 00:36:07.132 --> 00:36:09.936 your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer, 834 00:36:10.311 --> 00:36:13.772 and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, 835 00:36:14.163 --> 00:36:16.288 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. 836 00:36:17.007 --> 00:36:18.241 Since 2021, 837 00:36:18.397 --> 00:36:19.882 we've shared countless stories, 838 00:36:20.038 --> 00:36:23.694 insights and ideas over more than 40 episodes. 839 00:36:24.071 --> 00:36:27.234 And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. 840 00:36:27.935 --> 00:36:32.217 If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to 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00:37:10.797 --> 00:37:14.250 make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. 853 00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:18.219 And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, 854 00:37:18.594 --> 00:37:20.203 we'd love for you to spread the word. 855 00:37:20.627 --> 00:37:24.832 It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. 856 00:37:25.351 --> 00:37:26.652 Sharing is caring. 857 00:37:27.195 --> 00:37:32.355 Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. 858 00:37:32.660 --> 00:37:34.558 Thanks once again for lending your ears. 859 00:37:34.699 --> 00:37:35.441 Until next time.