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What was the trigger that made you realize that maybe now the old funnel is dead and that we need to change the way we see inbound,

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etc?

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We famously went viral for losing 140 million visits in a year from our blog because of all this disruption.

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And it's like when you're in the midst of that,

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you're like,

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oh,

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the world is just a different place and we have to do things differently.

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Right now,

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you're basically saying,

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hey,

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I've just done text-based SEO.

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Now you need to do tech space.

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answer engine optimization.

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And you need to understand how you're visible across chat,

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GPT,

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perplexity,

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Gemini and Claude.

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For most of the CEOs,

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it's like,

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show me we can get leads from this.

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We live in a climate where most companies who have built any kind of marketing demand motion are so constrained that they're paying like break even return on ad spend to just keep a volume going.

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What do you think is the best way to lose my board's trust in 2026?

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If I'm a CMO.

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Do what you've always been doing.

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This is a time for transformation,

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not the status quo.

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Hey,

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Kip.

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Welcome to the show.

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Hey,

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Jordan.

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Thanks for having me,

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man.

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Appreciate it.

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All right.

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Kip,

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I've got a big question for you.

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So you are one of the person who helped popularize...

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the term inbound marketing and hub spots over a decade ago and now you wrote a book with uh kieran flanagan who was a previous guest on the show by the way and about kieran about what you call loop marketing and

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so what's loop marketing yeah so loop marketing is the answer for how you how do you heck do you do marketing in the post ai world and the reason for that is

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Whether you love it or whether you hate it,

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your buyers are adopting AI and they're using AI.

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And that's showing up in just your business in a lot of different ways.

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One,

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like your marketing numbers probably aren't as good because search traffic's getting disrupted.

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More people are spending money on paid ads,

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so paid ads costs are going up.

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More companies are sending emails,

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so email open rates and click-through rates are a little unpredictable.

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When your sales reps get on call with people,

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it's like they've

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done way more of the discovery process because they've been back and forth with an assistant or an agent.

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And in this world,

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you fundamentally have to move in a very different way and operate in a different way.

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And so loop marketing is a four-step framework for how you actually approach any marketing activity in the post AI world.

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And those four steps are pretty straightforward.

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The first is you got to express the idea you have.

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And AI makes creating content,

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I think,

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better and easier than ever if you have the right.

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process and the right data,

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which we go into very deeply in the book.

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And then once you have that story you want to tell,

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you want to tailor it,

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step two,

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how do you actually personalize it in whether it be an email,

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whether it be personalized ads,

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whether it be another personalized channel to actually resonate with your target audience,

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your target individual.

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And then the third part of this is amplification.

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How do you distribute that message out to the world?

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And a lot has changed with creators,

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with answer engine optimization.

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and how you show up in these AI search engines.

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Ads and content have changed dramatically.

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We go into all of that.

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And the last thing is what we call evolve.

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And evolve is like,

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how do you learn really quickly?

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Learning compounds,

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we all know that,

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but AI makes learning and moving much faster and much easier.

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And so how do you actually think about how your metrics have changed,

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the equations you're using to actually inform the marketing strategy that you have and how your team actually needs to.

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work.

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And whether that team is just you as an individual,

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or you have like a real marketing team,

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the fundamental way of operating has changed dramatically.

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Interesting.

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And so

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I'm curious,

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what was the moment or,

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I don't know,

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like the trigger that made you realize that maybe now the funnel,

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like the old funnel is dead and that we need to change the way we see the funnel and the way we see inbound,

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etc?

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I think this all goes back to the chat GPT moment,

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right?

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November of 2023,

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when chat GPT launches and it becomes this new modality of how people access information.

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And search starts to change then.

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Google then starts changing their algorithm very aggressively,

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too,

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to kind of prepare for the AI search shift.

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And so traffic to websites starts to decline.

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And then you start seeing AI generated video and ads and.

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the whole buyer technology adoption process changes changed what seemed like overnight it wasn't overnight but it felt like it was overnight you know and i don't know you've you've had some of these similar experiences but it really was then and then like we famously went viral for losing like we lost 140 million visits in a year from our blog uh because of all this disruption and it's like when you're in the midst of that you're like oh

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the world is just a different place.

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And we have to do things differently.

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And just doing more of what we were doing is not going to make us successful.

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Yeah,

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I remember seeing a lot of posts talking about the way,

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like the traffic that you lost,

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etc.

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And I was like,

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okay,

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what's behind it?

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And I also remember one post,

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I think it was from Kieran,

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explaining like the strategy that you invested.

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way more into creators and doing more demand gen,

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et cetera,

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et cetera.

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Can you walk me through like all your strategy behind it?

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Yeah.

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If you were a company and you're feeling a similar problem,

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like what we do,

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what would you consider doing?

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Right.

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And when you lose a bunch of traffic,

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the easiest thing to say is like,

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Hey,

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we're just going to do more of what we did.

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And that's,

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that's not the right,

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the right path here.

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What we fundamentally did was a few things.

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Before all of this happened,

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we realized we had a bunch of concentration risk,

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right?

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It's like,

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hey,

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wow,

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we're really dependent on traffic from Google search.

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If something ever happens that we are in not a good place.

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And

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I will in a million years tell you,

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I would have never predicted the speed and the extent of which that disruption happened.

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But like we were like,

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we were thinking about it.

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And so in we bought the hustle in years ago,

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and that was our first step of saying.

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Hey,

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the world is moving past,

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you know,

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static text-based blog content and moving much more multimedia.

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And our friend Kieran had this amazing slide,

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which was like,

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you want to be a part of your buyer's day.

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And they research on search part of this throughout their day.

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There's all other stuff they're doing.

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They're listening to podcasts,

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they're reading email newsletter,

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they're seeing these ads,

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they're participating on social media,

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and you need to show up across those places.

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And so that's what we did.

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We

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Invested heavily in YouTube.

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We invested in a newsletter network of newsletters for different member profiles of our target audience.

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We invested far more aggressively in brand marketing and storytelling and how we act.

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There was a period of time where marketing was just like knobs and dials.

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It's like,

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hey,

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I can put some money in Google and Facebook and some programmatic SEO.

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I know what I'm going to get.

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And why do I even need to worry about anything else?

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Because I can get enough from those things to grow my business in the way that I need to.

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And that is just fundamentally not true anymore.

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And so if I were giving various video,

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email newsletters,

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whether it's Substack or self-hosted,

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and when I say video,

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I largely mean YouTube,

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but I would extend that to TikTok and Instagram Reels,

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depending on how consumer or B2B you are,

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and even

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LinkedIn short form video.

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creators.

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We have a whole chapter on creators in the loop book,

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and it's transformative of how creators are shaping how audiences are influenced to discover products.

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And we partnered very,

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very heavily with creators,

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and we are still doing more and more every month with them.

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And those were some really big strategic shifts we've made that have allowed us to be successful.

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The other side of it,

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though,

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is we really leaned into data and AI to really personalize and target our messages.

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And we got really big improvements in email marketing and SMS and those kind of one-to-one channels because of

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AI's ability to kind of help us create bespoke messages for each individual person.

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Hmm.

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I told you already before,

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but I'm a big...

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I'm someone who watches a lot of your show,

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Marketing Against the Grain.

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So I advise people to watch the show because it's a great show.

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And I also saw that you're partnering with shows like

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My First Million.

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Like every time I check one of the video,

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I see a lot of spots in there.

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Yeah,

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so My First Million is an interesting story.

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One,

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we acquired the My First Million podcast when we bought The Hustle.

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And nobody cared about podcasts back then.

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And

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Sam and Sean weren't really making any money off of it.

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It was kind of a throw-in.

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It was something that I was like,

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oh,

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they've got enough of a listenership.

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I was like,

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if we could get that podcast as part of the hustle acquisition,

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we can use that as the cornerstone podcast to build out a podcast network.

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Because it's really hard to have a cold start where you don't have enough audience.

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And it's going to really going to take two years to build this to try to build a business podcast that will work.

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Right.

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And so that works.

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And it's been a really awesome partnership with Sam and Sean over the years.

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But yeah,

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then there's other podcasts where,

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yes,

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they're just podcast networks.

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We don't own them,

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but we partner deeply with them on kind of creative and advertising and everything there.

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All right,

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cool.

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All right,

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getting back to the loop framework.

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Yeah,

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let's do it.

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What I think is interesting is that it starts with Express.

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And you see like

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Express is basically starting from what's my unique point of view.

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Correct.

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Usually,

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as a marketer,

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people tend to start by what does my buyer want?

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And so it's like flipping the thing on its head.

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You know,

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it's like you start by giving something instead of taking something,

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let's say.

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And so

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I think it's really interesting to understand the behind the scenes of this.

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And at Hotspot,

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how does it look the way you think about this way?

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Yeah,

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so let's talk a little bit about this because I think it's really,

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really important.

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If you are a student and a nerd of marketing history,

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like I am,

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and you go and you read

263
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Ogilvy and you read the old direct mail copywriting books and the whole gambit of marketing,

264
00:11:33.585 --> 00:11:36.406
a really good book on this is Different by Young Mimoon,

265
00:11:36.466 --> 00:11:38.847
who was dean of HBS for a long time.

266
00:11:39.107 --> 00:11:40.967
There's lots of great stories here.

267
00:11:41.467 --> 00:11:43.468
but the reality is like one of the core things

268
00:11:43.864 --> 00:11:46.865
themes of great marketing throughout time has been differentiation,

269
00:11:48.345 --> 00:11:48.585
right?

270
00:11:48.725 --> 00:11:58.188
And the differentiation for most of modern marketing history was in the story and in what you decided to focus on,

271
00:11:58.328 --> 00:11:58.548
right?

272
00:11:58.908 --> 00:12:00.689
There's the classic Ogilvy ad of,

273
00:12:00.789 --> 00:12:01.149
you know,

274
00:12:01.649 --> 00:12:03.769
at 60 miles an hour in a Rolls Royce,

275
00:12:03.770 --> 00:12:04.730
all you hear is the clock,

276
00:12:05.230 --> 00:12:05.470
right?

277
00:12:05.510 --> 00:12:06.730
Because that's his whole,

278
00:12:07.030 --> 00:12:07.170
like,

279
00:12:07.171 --> 00:12:08.911
I'm going to focus on the unexpected thing.

280
00:12:08.951 --> 00:12:11.952
All the other car manufacturers are focusing on these other benefits.

281
00:12:11.992 --> 00:12:12.992
I'm going to focus on it.

282
00:12:13.408 --> 00:12:18.711
on the benefit of luxury and quality and silence,

283
00:12:18.751 --> 00:12:18.931
right?

284
00:12:19.591 --> 00:12:30.717
And we lost differentiation in the era of the last 20 years of marketing because differentiation moved from story to tactics.

285
00:12:30.718 --> 00:12:31.638
It's like,

286
00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:31.758
hey,

287
00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:33.879
if I was a little bit better at meta ads,

288
00:12:34.700 --> 00:12:35.360
I can be good enough.

289
00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:36.521
And I don't need,

290
00:12:37.501 --> 00:12:38.502
I can arbitrage that.

291
00:12:38.522 --> 00:12:42.624
And I can be the same as these other 20 products on Amazon and be successful.

292
00:12:43.616 --> 00:12:45.056
AI is making that no longer true.

293
00:12:45.757 --> 00:12:52.478
And you now have to be much more differentiated on the story side of things.

294
00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:53.759
And so you're like,

295
00:12:53.779 --> 00:12:55.839
how do we approach this at HubSpot?

296
00:12:56.079 --> 00:12:57.220
I think there are a few tests.

297
00:12:59.620 --> 00:13:00.681
The easiest one,

298
00:13:00.701 --> 00:13:01.381
the most fun one,

299
00:13:01.801 --> 00:13:03.782
and credit goes to our co-founder,

300
00:13:03.802 --> 00:13:04.442
Brian Halligan,

301
00:13:04.443 --> 00:13:07.663
because he used this throughout the company's journey,

302
00:13:07.763 --> 00:13:09.863
was could a yoga studio say this?

303
00:13:10.463 --> 00:13:10.804
Basically,

304
00:13:10.805 --> 00:13:10.924
like,

305
00:13:10.944 --> 00:13:12.004
could any business say this?

306
00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:41.840
you know like put put somebody else's logo on this and could that credibly come from them and that is the most basic test but it really works you know you're like oh i'm saying all this thing i got this jargon and literally like 30 other companies could say this thing and we're seeing right now in ai technology right so see a sameness out there everybody's saying the same thing about ai it's agents it's blah blah it's headless it's cli it's all these things it's like speeds and feeds and all this bullshit.

307
00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:57.487
right and so you're like oh just a total commodity market how do you actually bring to life a truly differentiated point of view and the process i tend to follow is oh well could a yoga studio say this what

308
00:13:57.507 --> 00:14:09.412
is everybody in the world saying what is the exact opposite of that and normally the exact opposite you read it and you're like oh i think that's pretty interesting i i would actually Thank you.

309
00:14:09.508 --> 00:14:26.362
you know what and like we're actually doing a lot of that stuff if we did if we changed a few things like this would fit us really really well and then so if you're kind of going against against the grain there on the messaging then it's like can i deliver it in like unique ways like in the inbound marketing days like we'd

310
00:14:26.363 --> 00:14:38.952
write blog posts about how direct mail was killing the environment like you would find every angle possible to try to make this like counter argument and be the the David versus the Goliath in

311
00:14:39.468 --> 00:14:40.071
your market.

312
00:14:40.151 --> 00:14:43.765
And I think that got lost a lot in the last 10 to 20 years of marketing.

313
00:14:44.046 --> 00:14:45.591
And I think we're getting back to that now.

314
00:14:46.976 --> 00:14:47.376
100%

315
00:14:47.656 --> 00:14:47.896
agree.

316
00:14:48.656 --> 00:14:48.957
And you know,

317
00:14:49.497 --> 00:14:53.198
so the test you were just chatting about,

318
00:14:54.298 --> 00:14:56.219
I've got one test I do in my customers.

319
00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:56.699
It's like,

320
00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:58.899
I call it the white paper test.

321
00:14:59.219 --> 00:15:00.180
It's all right,

322
00:15:00.260 --> 00:15:01.580
take your headline.

323
00:15:01.740 --> 00:15:02.780
Usually it's for the website,

324
00:15:02.800 --> 00:15:02.960
you know,

325
00:15:02.961 --> 00:15:04.161
because I don't know why,

326
00:15:04.181 --> 00:15:05.381
but people with the website,

327
00:15:05.382 --> 00:15:08.882
they try to be inspirational instead of just saying what they do.

328
00:15:08.982 --> 00:15:09.222
You know,

329
00:15:09.262 --> 00:15:09.622
it's like,

330
00:15:10.002 --> 00:15:10.903
it's really weird.

331
00:15:11.123 --> 00:15:12.323
And so what I do is like,

332
00:15:12.763 --> 00:15:13.043
all right,

333
00:15:13.103 --> 00:15:13.843
take your headline,

334
00:15:14.104 --> 00:15:15.404
put it on a white piece of paper,

335
00:15:15.864 --> 00:15:18.385
Just go and see your neighbor and ask the question,

336
00:15:18.665 --> 00:15:19.806
what am I selling?

337
00:15:21.046 --> 00:15:21.686
What am I selling?

338
00:15:22.327 --> 00:15:23.227
And the second thing is,

339
00:15:24.508 --> 00:15:28.349
can you identify that it's me and that it's not another company?

340
00:15:28.669 --> 00:15:32.811
And so it's basically exactly the same test that you're saying.

341
00:15:33.071 --> 00:15:33.491
Yeah.

342
00:15:33.712 --> 00:15:33.892
Here,

343
00:15:34.052 --> 00:15:34.192
look,

344
00:15:34.232 --> 00:15:41.075
we're going to have a quick 30-second detour because the website for any marketer is largely their bane of their existence.

345
00:15:41.155 --> 00:15:41.915
Because the website,

346
00:15:41.995 --> 00:15:43.456
everybody has an opinion about a website.

347
00:15:43.856 --> 00:15:44.396
Literally everyone.

348
00:15:44.416 --> 00:15:45.077
The legal team,

349
00:15:45.497 --> 00:15:46.838
your CEO,

350
00:15:47.338 --> 00:15:47.779
everybody.

351
00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:51.582
And here's the old Ogilvy quote of there's no statues of committees,

352
00:15:52.262 --> 00:15:52.523
right?

353
00:15:52.603 --> 00:15:58.468
That like really remarkable work comes from like a singular mind and a singular idea.

354
00:15:58.928 --> 00:16:00.469
And the more people get involved,

355
00:16:00.470 --> 00:16:01.230
the more watered down.

356
00:16:01.370 --> 00:16:02.451
That's what happened to the website.

357
00:16:02.452 --> 00:16:05.574
Websites get watered down because there are tons of people involved.

358
00:16:05.754 --> 00:16:09.437
And I really like your test because it's a forcing function to go back to that group and be like,

359
00:16:09.477 --> 00:16:09.617
look,

360
00:16:09.637 --> 00:16:10.438
we're trying to do everything.

361
00:16:10.798 --> 00:16:13.300
Can we just do one thing very well?

362
00:16:15.124 --> 00:16:15.244
And,

363
00:16:15.245 --> 00:16:15.424
you know,

364
00:16:16.105 --> 00:16:19.507
it's really interesting how sometimes just by reading the headline,

365
00:16:19.527 --> 00:16:21.529
you don't even understand what the company is doing.

366
00:16:21.729 --> 00:16:21.849
Oh,

367
00:16:21.969 --> 00:16:22.369
totally.

368
00:16:23.370 --> 00:16:25.852
100%.

369
00:16:26.032 --> 00:16:26.292
You know,

370
00:16:26.812 --> 00:16:28.694
usually what I see is that people,

371
00:16:31.215 --> 00:16:34.598
sometimes they think about the value proposition in terms of slogan,

372
00:16:34.898 --> 00:16:35.138
you know?

373
00:16:35.438 --> 00:16:35.618
Yes.

374
00:16:35.659 --> 00:16:35.779
But,

375
00:16:36.419 --> 00:16:36.659
you know,

376
00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:37.120
like,

377
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:38.340
because you're worth it,

378
00:16:39.081 --> 00:16:42.363
you could sell a mattress with this sentence,

379
00:16:42.364 --> 00:16:42.563
you know?

380
00:16:43.004 --> 00:16:43.264
And so...

381
00:16:44.044 --> 00:16:45.625
Because you're worth it is a good slogan,

382
00:16:45.965 --> 00:16:47.145
but it's not a value proposition,

383
00:16:47.146 --> 00:16:47.366
you know?

384
00:16:47.806 --> 00:16:48.086
And so,

385
00:16:48.646 --> 00:16:48.886
you know,

386
00:16:49.587 --> 00:16:56.930
this is where I think people are mixed up in marketing and try to be inspirational when they miss the pragmatism.

387
00:16:57.310 --> 00:17:00.172
You have to remember that humans are inherently self-interested.

388
00:17:01.192 --> 00:17:02.853
And because humans are inherently self-interested,

389
00:17:03.653 --> 00:17:08.736
they use jargon inside group colloquialisms.

390
00:17:09.836 --> 00:17:13.737
or really meaningless slogans because they're afraid to have something very specific.

391
00:17:14.397 --> 00:17:14.657
Yeah.

392
00:17:14.677 --> 00:17:14.937
Right.

393
00:17:15.038 --> 00:17:16.258
Because it's going to alienate,

394
00:17:17.118 --> 00:17:18.098
somebody that they know,

395
00:17:18.318 --> 00:17:20.059
and that's going to make them feel,

396
00:17:21.900 --> 00:17:23.740
a certain way in some ways,

397
00:17:23.980 --> 00:17:28.961
like the best markers in the world are kind of like empathetic sociopaths.

398
00:17:29.282 --> 00:17:29.522
Right.

399
00:17:29.622 --> 00:17:30.382
Like they like,

400
00:17:30.962 --> 00:17:31.162
right.

401
00:17:31.202 --> 00:17:31.362
Like,

402
00:17:31.442 --> 00:17:31.802
it's like,

403
00:17:32.022 --> 00:17:37.644
I understand what this person wants and I actually don't care what the world says or thinks about that.

404
00:17:38.588 --> 00:17:40.089
I have deep clarity and

405
00:17:40.669 --> 00:17:41.489
I am one of these people.

406
00:17:41.509 --> 00:17:42.870
So I can identify a lot with it.

407
00:17:42.871 --> 00:17:43.250
Like I just,

408
00:17:43.730 --> 00:17:44.471
for better and for worse,

409
00:17:44.472 --> 00:17:46.452
I just don't care what people think.

410
00:17:46.453 --> 00:17:46.712
It's like,

411
00:17:46.713 --> 00:17:47.452
is this the right answer?

412
00:17:47.453 --> 00:17:48.032
If this is the right answer,

413
00:17:48.033 --> 00:17:49.253
you should just do the thing.

414
00:17:49.573 --> 00:18:00.457
And I think that is the challenge is that most marketing work is largely a reflection of how sensitive the leaders of the company are.

415
00:18:01.478 --> 00:18:01.618
Yeah,

416
00:18:02.618 --> 00:18:02.978
completely.

417
00:18:03.699 --> 00:18:03.999
All right.

418
00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:05.039
Okay.

419
00:18:05.619 --> 00:18:05.779
One,

420
00:18:05.820 --> 00:18:06.780
we've defined the point of view.

421
00:18:07.424 --> 00:18:11.507
Then you give marketers a tool that you call the four

422
00:18:11.928 --> 00:18:12.148
R's.

423
00:18:13.209 --> 00:18:14.109
So, Remarkability,

424
00:18:15.070 --> 00:18:15.731
Resonance,

425
00:18:15.971 --> 00:18:16.251
Reach,

426
00:18:16.892 --> 00:18:17.712
Regenerative.

427
00:18:18.453 --> 00:18:19.994
Can you walk us through these four?

428
00:18:20.014 --> 00:18:20.134
So,

429
00:18:22.536 --> 00:18:27.720
what we're trying to do with the book is to tell you that the rules of the game have changed,

430
00:18:29.082 --> 00:18:29.882
first and foremost.

431
00:18:30.142 --> 00:18:30.343
And

432
00:18:30.763 --> 00:18:35.106
I live my life by a set of principles.

433
00:18:35.247 --> 00:18:36.227
One of the principles is

434
00:18:36.828 --> 00:18:36.948
I'd,

435
00:18:37.208 --> 00:18:52.532
never play a game i can't win and i just don't i don't i don't play a game i can't win there's nothing there's no use of stepping on the field and so then you ask well what do you need to win the game to win the game who wins the game normally the you

436
00:18:52.632 --> 00:19:06.816
you're like oh the best team wins the game the most skilled people in the game now the people who normally win the game are the people who understand the rules of the game and the people who understand the rules of the game normally the people who write the rules of the game and so you have to write the rules of the game

437
00:19:07.376 --> 00:19:10.057
And what we're saying here,

438
00:19:10.077 --> 00:19:11.378
what I mean by this is like,

439
00:19:12.158 --> 00:19:18.141
there are new equations to actually do marketing really well in a modern world.

440
00:19:18.701 --> 00:19:19.362
And like,

441
00:19:19.382 --> 00:19:20.062
for example,

442
00:19:20.542 --> 00:19:24.784
an old equation would have been cost per lead,

443
00:19:25.624 --> 00:19:25.824
right?

444
00:19:26.105 --> 00:19:26.565
Cost per lead.

445
00:19:26.585 --> 00:19:31.227
I'm going to advertise on the meta network and I care deeply about my cost per lead.

446
00:19:32.327 --> 00:19:32.528
Well,

447
00:19:32.908 --> 00:19:33.228
and then.

448
00:19:34.392 --> 00:19:47.596
you know your meta rep if you were big enough spender would argue oh you're getting this brand benefit too because people are seeing your brand and all of this so now it's like well what is the actual equation for spending an ad with a great creator

449
00:19:48.711 --> 00:19:49.332
If somebody,

450
00:19:49.472 --> 00:19:49.652
like,

451
00:19:49.692 --> 00:19:50.132
let's say

452
00:19:50.573 --> 00:19:55.417
I've got somebody who has a stranglehold level of trust over an audience.

453
00:19:55.817 --> 00:19:59.080
Am I going to measure that person just on a cost per lead basis?

454
00:20:00.642 --> 00:20:01.162
Would you do that?

455
00:20:01.302 --> 00:20:07.287
I don't think I would do that because then I would completely undervalue the relationship I'd have with that person.

456
00:20:07.688 --> 00:20:12.912
So I need a deep level of conviction in how I'm working with them,

457
00:20:12.992 --> 00:20:14.974
which means I need a different formula,

458
00:20:15.134 --> 00:20:15.555
equation.

459
00:20:15.943 --> 00:20:39.062
to get there and with the the four r's you're kind of bringing up is like those to me are the kind of the guardrails for the outcomes you're trying to achieve right like if you have remarkability if you have resonance if you're regenerative basically means like you're able to actually learn and build off of the cycles of work that you're doing it's like oh i worked with this creator this

460
00:20:39.122 --> 00:20:45.327
creator i value them on this formula i made that's essentially a cost per lead

461
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:50.823
plus the impact I think they're going to have on my AI visibility,

462
00:20:51.223 --> 00:20:53.525
plus the brand lift I think I'm going to get from them.

463
00:20:53.705 --> 00:20:55.666
And I've built this little composite equation.

464
00:20:55.946 --> 00:20:59.449
I'm going to evaluate and decide how much I want to pay them based on that money.

465
00:21:00.170 --> 00:21:00.690
And that's great.

466
00:21:01.010 --> 00:21:03.412
And so that means I'm going to start getting,

467
00:21:03.672 --> 00:21:03.912
you know,

468
00:21:04.052 --> 00:21:05.573
resonance with their audience,

469
00:21:05.694 --> 00:21:06.274
which is awesome.

470
00:21:06.794 --> 00:21:09.576
Then I need to let them build the message,

471
00:21:09.676 --> 00:21:09.997
not me,

472
00:21:10.217 --> 00:21:11.538
because I don't know shit about their audience.

473
00:21:11.539 --> 00:21:12.879
They know everything about their audience.

474
00:21:13.179 --> 00:21:14.740
If they build the message,

475
00:21:14.741 --> 00:21:15.641
it's going to be remarkable,

476
00:21:16.161 --> 00:21:16.361
right?

477
00:21:16.401 --> 00:21:18.783
Because it's going to deliver in this native,

478
00:21:19.123 --> 00:21:19.924
remarkable way,

479
00:21:20.084 --> 00:21:20.804
which is going to be really,

480
00:21:20.844 --> 00:21:21.445
really powerful.

481
00:21:22.525 --> 00:21:28.249
Then I'm going to look at the work I did with them and actually learn what worked and what didn't work,

482
00:21:28.389 --> 00:21:34.774
give that data back to them so they can actually regenerate and run the next campaign in a much better way,

483
00:21:34.894 --> 00:21:35.034
right?

484
00:21:35.054 --> 00:21:39.217
Like these are like practical applications of what I mean by these terms,

485
00:21:39.837 --> 00:21:39.997
but

486
00:21:40.578 --> 00:21:42.219
I don't think most companies do any of this.

487
00:21:42.807 --> 00:21:59.239
right now because those are these are all post ai constructs versus pre-ai constructs yeah okay and so on the post ai you talked about one thing earlier which was the switch from seo to aeo so

488
00:21:59.499 --> 00:22:10.527
you've invested a lot on this topic uh like uh tried and learned a lot of things so let's say i'm the cmo of a company

489
00:22:11.227 --> 00:22:27.614
working who had a big growth in the past coming from seo i've got my traditional seo team my blog factory content calendar blah blah blah what should i change what advice can you give me uh

490
00:22:27.814 --> 00:22:38.859
it's it's a good question so we're i'm going to use your example because it's like this is a team that has humans and money right it's not this like you know solo person trying to do this thing

491
00:22:39.807 --> 00:22:41.048
You have to do a couple things.

492
00:22:42.008 --> 00:22:42.328
Right now,

493
00:22:42.408 --> 00:22:43.349
you're basically saying,

494
00:22:43.449 --> 00:22:43.589
hey,

495
00:22:43.689 --> 00:22:46.110
I've just done text-based SEO.

496
00:22:47.090 --> 00:22:50.812
Now you need to do text-based answer engine optimization,

497
00:22:51.072 --> 00:22:54.333
and you need to understand how you're visible across chat,

498
00:22:54.373 --> 00:22:54.653
GPT,

499
00:22:54.913 --> 00:22:55.473
perplexity,

500
00:22:55.674 --> 00:22:56.054
Gemini,

501
00:22:56.055 --> 00:22:56.454
and Claude.

502
00:22:57.094 --> 00:23:01.976
And so you need some visibility tool and recommendation tool.

503
00:23:02.136 --> 00:23:03.077
We have got one at HubSpot,

504
00:23:03.117 --> 00:23:03.577
HubSpot.io.

505
00:23:03.737 --> 00:23:05.097
There's tons of them out there.

506
00:23:05.518 --> 00:23:08.319
But you should go and have a sense of what you do.

507
00:23:08.379 --> 00:23:08.819
and and

508
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:11.221
And SEO and AO is kind of like a Venn diagram.

509
00:23:12.201 --> 00:23:13.842
There's some unique things about each of them,

510
00:23:13.882 --> 00:23:15.143
and there's some areas of overlap.

511
00:23:15.203 --> 00:23:19.106
Like you need to have authority and great content and all these things for both.

512
00:23:19.506 --> 00:23:21.628
But what those things mean is a little different.

513
00:23:21.708 --> 00:23:21.888
Like,

514
00:23:21.948 --> 00:23:22.728
for example,

515
00:23:23.289 --> 00:23:28.992
these answer engines have certain sources they cite at a much higher rate.

516
00:23:29.413 --> 00:23:30.293
So LinkedIn,

517
00:23:30.594 --> 00:23:31.154
YouTube,

518
00:23:31.334 --> 00:23:31.594
Reddit,

519
00:23:31.614 --> 00:23:32.135
for example.

520
00:23:32.195 --> 00:23:33.495
If you want to show up and chat GPT,

521
00:23:33.556 --> 00:23:38.479
you really need to be a part of those three platforms to actually...

522
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:40.020
build what's called consensus.

523
00:23:41.081 --> 00:23:42.302
The answer engines are looking for,

524
00:23:42.642 --> 00:23:42.762
hey,

525
00:23:42.763 --> 00:23:44.384
if I look around the internet,

526
00:23:44.804 --> 00:23:47.806
what is the consensus answer on this topic?

527
00:23:47.867 --> 00:23:49.348
Where Google used PageRank to say,

528
00:23:49.488 --> 00:23:50.629
who had the most authority?

529
00:23:52.350 --> 00:23:54.352
Who might be the biggest expert on this?

530
00:23:54.592 --> 00:23:57.314
Which is a very different way of addressing it.

531
00:23:57.594 --> 00:24:01.658
So the first thing I would do is go from SEO to add in AEO.

532
00:24:01.938 --> 00:24:02.939
And it's kind of a yes and.

533
00:24:02.959 --> 00:24:03.559
It's not like,

534
00:24:03.639 --> 00:24:04.860
don't abandon traditional SEO,

535
00:24:05.001 --> 00:24:07.302
but know that you're moving on the spectrum towards

536
00:24:09.183 --> 00:24:11.744
You have to move from text only to multimedia.

537
00:24:12.185 --> 00:24:13.965
I would at minimum say text to video.

538
00:24:14.185 --> 00:24:17.167
And so that means you'd be like,

539
00:24:17.207 --> 00:24:17.327
well,

540
00:24:17.367 --> 00:24:17.627
great.

541
00:24:17.907 --> 00:24:18.547
Video's hard.

542
00:24:19.308 --> 00:24:20.928
I only got this amount of people and amount of money.

543
00:24:21.008 --> 00:24:21.729
How am I going to do this?

544
00:24:22.709 --> 00:24:22.829
One,

545
00:24:22.830 --> 00:24:36.615
you need some content automation systems and tools that are going to allow you to get the same SEO and AEO results with less writing time and humans focused on writing and editing so that you can free up some of those people's time to go write scripts and make videos.

546
00:24:37.460 --> 00:24:38.326
And remember,

547
00:24:38.387 --> 00:24:40.482
YouTube is one of the biggest search engines on the planet.

548
00:24:41.181 --> 00:24:42.982
And you need to be a part of that game.

549
00:24:43.602 --> 00:24:44.683
And also,

550
00:24:45.323 --> 00:24:47.644
video is a very important component to all,

551
00:24:48.024 --> 00:24:48.144
to

552
00:24:48.545 --> 00:24:49.385
AEO, to SEO.

553
00:24:49.485 --> 00:24:57.069
And so it's like you're building up this network of content that's going to allow you to be discovered regardless of where you are.

554
00:24:58.810 --> 00:24:59.530
Those are like the two,

555
00:24:59.730 --> 00:25:01.251
there's a long list of things you could do.

556
00:25:01.691 --> 00:25:03.912
Those are the first two things I would do right out of the gate.

557
00:25:05.073 --> 00:25:05.253
Okay,

558
00:25:05.553 --> 00:25:05.673
so.

559
00:25:06.897 --> 00:25:07.197
Video.

560
00:25:07.437 --> 00:25:10.999
It's interesting because we spoke about the creator-led growth,

561
00:25:11.339 --> 00:25:11.719
let's say,

562
00:25:12.019 --> 00:25:13.720
and here you talk about the video and,

563
00:25:13.800 --> 00:25:14.040
okay,

564
00:25:14.080 --> 00:25:15.180
I don't have the resources,

565
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:15.481
et cetera,

566
00:25:15.501 --> 00:25:15.801
et cetera.

567
00:25:16.461 --> 00:25:17.781
I see a lot of CMOs,

568
00:25:17.782 --> 00:25:18.002
you know,

569
00:25:18.062 --> 00:25:20.663
they're convinced they need to invest in CMO,

570
00:25:20.863 --> 00:25:21.643
in creators,

571
00:25:21.663 --> 00:25:22.723
et cetera.

572
00:25:22.724 --> 00:25:26.125
The thing is that they don't have anybody around them,

573
00:25:26.225 --> 00:25:27.485
and especially like the CEO,

574
00:25:28.546 --> 00:25:31.607
willing to put their face online,

575
00:25:31.627 --> 00:25:31.887
you know,

576
00:25:32.467 --> 00:25:35.088
show up and talk in front of an audience.

577
00:25:35.288 --> 00:25:35.869
Yeah,

578
00:25:35.929 --> 00:25:36.469
it's hard.

579
00:25:36.629 --> 00:25:51.802
you know exactly it's hard so how would you convince someone to start playing this game and showing up and etc etc because like most

580
00:25:51.803 --> 00:26:05.273
of the cmos i know they know it's working but they can't find the right words to convince people to start doing the thing they you're saying like hey they need on-screen talent and they don't have they don't have it yeah yeah

581
00:26:06.325 --> 00:26:06.445
Um,

582
00:26:08.926 --> 00:26:09.666
it's a hard thing.

583
00:26:10.026 --> 00:26:12.767
And part of the reason it's hard is because it's kind of situational to a business,

584
00:26:13.047 --> 00:26:13.227
right?

585
00:26:13.467 --> 00:26:15.488
If it's a super technical business,

586
00:26:17.528 --> 00:26:20.209
you need some credibility and experts there.

587
00:26:21.289 --> 00:26:24.970
I think this is a great example of why you need a different equation.

588
00:26:25.910 --> 00:26:26.150
Okay.

589
00:26:27.751 --> 00:26:29.451
And the path to solve it,

590
00:26:29.452 --> 00:26:31.012
there are a couple paths to solving this problem.

591
00:26:31.652 --> 00:26:31.832
One,

592
00:26:32.612 --> 00:26:33.652
you go out and you say,

593
00:26:33.732 --> 00:26:33.873
hey,

594
00:26:34.453 --> 00:26:35.493
there's somebody on YouTube.

595
00:26:36.033 --> 00:27:00.843
in my market that's already doing this and i'm going to acquire them and i'm going to do an acqui-hire type of thing i'm going to buy their audience and their channel and i'm going to have them do this for me but that's a different equation because you have to then say hey i've never bought this like attention and so what you need to believe is that attention influence and distribution are the scarce resources of the modern world and that's what i believe i

596
00:27:00.863 --> 00:27:05.045
believe it's going to be much easier to commoditize product and features

597
00:27:05.549 --> 00:27:08.232
whether it be a technical product or manufacturing or what have you,

598
00:27:08.753 --> 00:27:12.897
than it is to commoditize distribution and influence awareness.

599
00:27:12.917 --> 00:27:14.339
And so you can go buy that.

600
00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:15.280
That's one thing.

601
00:27:15.800 --> 00:27:16.901
That's one way to solve that problem.

602
00:27:18.043 --> 00:27:26.592
Another way to solve that problem is you have to take one of your best people and say,

603
00:27:26.612 --> 00:27:27.353
this is now your job.

604
00:27:30.249 --> 00:27:30.429
Right?

605
00:27:30.489 --> 00:27:30.669
Like,

606
00:27:30.749 --> 00:27:30.869
so,

607
00:27:31.550 --> 00:27:31.930
so let me,

608
00:27:32.490 --> 00:27:33.391
let me give you,

609
00:27:33.392 --> 00:27:37.113
let's give you like a real practical example of something I've dealt with over,

610
00:27:37.553 --> 00:27:38.073
over the years.

611
00:27:38.474 --> 00:27:38.634
Like,

612
00:27:39.494 --> 00:27:41.455
there's not that many great sales

613
00:27:42.636 --> 00:27:44.317
YouTubers, right?

614
00:27:44.357 --> 00:27:45.278
There's a lot of entrepreneurship.

615
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.719
There's not a great sales YouTubers because like the math doesn't really make sense for them.

616
00:27:49.300 --> 00:27:51.621
Like I'm making a ton of money selling this thing over here.

617
00:27:52.201 --> 00:27:56.624
You're not going to pay me that same amount of money to just like go be on YouTube all the time.

618
00:27:57.444 --> 00:27:58.105
And so

619
00:27:58.585 --> 00:27:59.185
Sometimes you feel like,

620
00:27:59.186 --> 00:27:59.306
no,

621
00:27:59.307 --> 00:28:01.247
I am going to pay the same amount of money or,

622
00:28:01.327 --> 00:28:01.587
you know,

623
00:28:01.627 --> 00:28:05.290
I'm going to do something very different because that

624
00:28:05.830 --> 00:28:14.316
I believe this is existential to the future of how we actually build community and work with and inform our customers.

625
00:28:14.916 --> 00:28:16.797
So you basically say,

626
00:28:16.817 --> 00:28:16.937
hey,

627
00:28:18.478 --> 00:28:19.639
I want you to do this different thing.

628
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:20.320
I'm going to keep paying you.

629
00:28:20.340 --> 00:28:20.860
I'm paying you.

630
00:28:20.900 --> 00:28:23.021
But I need the trust and credibility there.

631
00:28:24.803 --> 00:28:27.825
The other that's that's option two.

632
00:28:28.465 --> 00:28:33.829
Option three is like you identify somebody out in the world that could be good at this.

633
00:28:34.629 --> 00:28:35.350
It's like,

634
00:28:35.390 --> 00:28:35.510
oh,

635
00:28:35.530 --> 00:28:36.331
they're not doing it,

636
00:28:36.411 --> 00:28:39.633
but they spoke at a couple of our events.

637
00:28:39.713 --> 00:28:40.574
They've done some things.

638
00:28:41.054 --> 00:28:42.275
We could turn them into this.

639
00:28:42.735 --> 00:28:49.860
And let's do a partnership with them or a contract agreement or hire them to kind of do this for us.

640
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:52.822
And those are like the three paths to doing that.

641
00:28:53.403 --> 00:28:53.583
Okay.

642
00:28:54.003 --> 00:28:55.744
And what about the ROI?

643
00:28:56.205 --> 00:28:56.425
How?

644
00:28:56.645 --> 00:28:58.907
do you calculate ROI on this?

645
00:28:58.908 --> 00:28:59.067
How do I,

646
00:28:59.068 --> 00:28:59.247
sorry,

647
00:28:59.267 --> 00:28:59.687
what did you say?

648
00:29:00.688 --> 00:29:02.189
How do you calculate ROI on this?

649
00:29:02.549 --> 00:29:02.669
Oh,

650
00:29:02.670 --> 00:29:02.950
how do you,

651
00:29:03.690 --> 00:29:05.211
how do you calculate ROI on this?

652
00:29:06.092 --> 00:29:06.993
Depends on,

653
00:29:06.994 --> 00:29:08.174
depends on what you're trying to achieve,

654
00:29:08.274 --> 00:29:08.474
right?

655
00:29:08.894 --> 00:29:09.134
You know,

656
00:29:09.755 --> 00:29:10.675
for most of the CEOs,

657
00:29:10.695 --> 00:29:11.176
it's like,

658
00:29:11.496 --> 00:29:11.796
show me,

659
00:29:12.597 --> 00:29:13.698
we can get leads from this.

660
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:15.659
Right.

661
00:29:16.219 --> 00:29:17.120
So if it's show me,

662
00:29:17.180 --> 00:29:18.281
you can get leads from this.

663
00:29:19.742 --> 00:29:19.902
There's,

664
00:29:21.263 --> 00:29:22.524
there's a couple of ways to think about this.

665
00:29:24.653 --> 00:29:26.476
There's the very basic way to think about this,

666
00:29:26.997 --> 00:29:27.438
which is,

667
00:29:27.718 --> 00:29:27.878
hey,

668
00:29:29.080 --> 00:29:33.848
I am going to pay X amount of money for this person.

669
00:29:34.329 --> 00:29:36.353
I'm going to pay Y amount of money for production.

670
00:29:37.687 --> 00:29:53.377
uh and and editing and everything and i think i'm going to get the amount of views and i'm going to convert you know uh two percent of those views into and deletes right and so that's that's

671
00:29:53.397 --> 00:29:57.380
the very basic math of all this and that's the math most people would do

672
00:29:58.108 --> 00:29:59.769
I think it's pretty dumb math to do,

673
00:30:00.049 --> 00:30:03.430
but it is essentially the math I think most people would do.

674
00:30:04.390 --> 00:30:05.070
Because it's simple.

675
00:30:05.910 --> 00:30:06.030
Well,

676
00:30:06.031 --> 00:30:07.091
because it's very simple.

677
00:30:07.131 --> 00:30:08.171
It's very rudimentary.

678
00:30:08.251 --> 00:30:13.852
But don't confuse simple with similar.

679
00:30:14.713 --> 00:30:16.533
You can be simple and very differentiated.

680
00:30:18.714 --> 00:30:22.175
And I think that's what I would argue here.

681
00:30:22.295 --> 00:30:23.315
And so if I were,

682
00:30:23.835 --> 00:30:26.916
the biggest thing that that equation misses is that.

683
00:30:27.744 --> 00:30:39.951
We live in a climate where most companies who have built any kind of marketing demand motion are so constrained that they're paying like break-even return on ad spend to just keep a volume going,

684
00:30:41.451 --> 00:30:41.652
right?

685
00:30:42.252 --> 00:30:43.172
And that's what's happening.

686
00:30:43.292 --> 00:30:43.753
I'm out there.

687
00:30:43.754 --> 00:30:44.293
I'm talking to people.

688
00:30:44.333 --> 00:30:45.293
You're talking to people.

689
00:30:45.313 --> 00:30:47.195
I assume that's what you're seeing as well.

690
00:30:47.915 --> 00:30:48.835
And so then you're just like,

691
00:30:49.356 --> 00:30:50.176
this is existential.

692
00:30:50.456 --> 00:30:51.877
I don't give a shit what the ROI is.

693
00:30:54.538 --> 00:30:57.180
I am not going to be a growing business.

694
00:30:57.952 --> 00:30:58.813
If I don't do this,

695
00:30:59.873 --> 00:31:00.074
right?

696
00:31:01.034 --> 00:31:01.154
Yeah.

697
00:31:01.655 --> 00:31:01.815
Right?

698
00:31:01.835 --> 00:31:02.795
Like you're just not.

699
00:31:02.855 --> 00:31:03.316
You're going to be like,

700
00:31:03.676 --> 00:31:03.856
cool.

701
00:31:03.896 --> 00:31:04.036
Well,

702
00:31:04.076 --> 00:31:05.898
eventually I'm going to be paying,

703
00:31:06.138 --> 00:31:06.378
you know,

704
00:31:06.538 --> 00:31:08.920
losing money on these ads on Google and Meta.

705
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:10.641
And I'm never going to get the volume I need.

706
00:31:10.661 --> 00:31:14.604
And if I don't make some investment to figure out a new channel distribution,

707
00:31:14.605 --> 00:31:15.184
then I'm cooked.

708
00:31:16.945 --> 00:31:19.467
And so who gives a shit what the ROI is,

709
00:31:19.507 --> 00:31:19.967
candidly,

710
00:31:20.167 --> 00:31:24.190
and just like I have to make this work is existential to the future of my company.

711
00:31:26.011 --> 00:31:26.131
Yeah.

712
00:31:26.532 --> 00:31:26.712
Okay.

713
00:31:27.868 --> 00:31:28.028
Okay.

714
00:31:28.228 --> 00:31:30.769
Tough conversation for some CMOs next week,

715
00:31:30.809 --> 00:31:31.929
I guess.

716
00:31:32.169 --> 00:31:32.329
Look,

717
00:31:32.409 --> 00:31:34.710
I'm not saying it's an easy conversation to have.

718
00:31:34.870 --> 00:31:35.170
I agree.

719
00:31:35.210 --> 00:31:35.350
But

720
00:31:36.050 --> 00:31:37.471
I think it's an honest one.

721
00:31:38.491 --> 00:31:38.611
Yeah.

722
00:31:39.231 --> 00:31:39.491
You know?

723
00:31:39.751 --> 00:31:39.871
Oh,

724
00:31:39.872 --> 00:31:39.991
yeah.

725
00:31:40.492 --> 00:31:40.612
Yeah,

726
00:31:40.912 --> 00:31:41.212
completely.

727
00:31:41.812 --> 00:31:42.052
All right.

728
00:31:43.853 --> 00:31:44.533
Let's talk HubSpot.

729
00:31:44.753 --> 00:31:47.734
So for the past two,

730
00:31:47.894 --> 00:31:48.534
three years,

731
00:31:48.734 --> 00:31:51.175
I've seen HubSpot repositioned to around,

732
00:31:51.176 --> 00:31:51.395
you know,

733
00:31:51.615 --> 00:31:52.375
AI agents,

734
00:31:52.435 --> 00:31:53.175
customer agents,

735
00:31:53.195 --> 00:31:53.975
prospective agents,

736
00:31:53.995 --> 00:31:54.275
et cetera,

737
00:31:54.276 --> 00:31:55.376
et cetera.

738
00:31:55.377 --> 00:31:55.836
What does...

739
00:31:56.708 --> 00:32:11.614
agent first uh an agent first company actually mean for uh a company like hubspot today yeah it's a good question i think a lot is getting lost in all of the technical ai

740
00:32:11.754 --> 00:32:24.860
jargon and cli and skills and all of these things that's why i'm asking yeah so if i if you ask me i think that this is there are this is a pretty simple articulation of it you know

741
00:32:25.472 --> 00:32:25.912
At HubSpot,

742
00:32:26.953 --> 00:32:31.094
we're building an agentic customer platform where you have all of your customer data.

743
00:32:31.495 --> 00:32:34.616
And there are kind of two modalities of building and working.

744
00:32:34.636 --> 00:32:35.836
Like if you're a technical person,

745
00:32:36.717 --> 00:32:39.878
you're going to build on our APIs and there's three layers of API.

746
00:32:39.898 --> 00:32:43.359
There's like a classic data API where you go and access raw data.

747
00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:49.342
Then there's a context API where we have pre-computed and inferred context related to your tasks.

748
00:32:49.502 --> 00:32:49.722
Like,

749
00:32:50.462 --> 00:32:51.042
for example,

750
00:32:51.103 --> 00:32:54.644
like what were the key characteristics of your top?

751
00:32:54.804 --> 00:32:56.885
1,000 performing SDR emails.

752
00:32:58.165 --> 00:33:01.406
And we can turn that into something where you can build a skill,

753
00:33:01.766 --> 00:33:02.646
you can execute,

754
00:33:03.046 --> 00:33:03.326
you know,

755
00:33:03.947 --> 00:33:04.967
your writing and everything,

756
00:33:05.027 --> 00:33:06.327
you're prospecting everything off of that,

757
00:33:06.387 --> 00:33:06.607
right?

758
00:33:06.727 --> 00:33:07.908
That's the second layer.

759
00:33:08.168 --> 00:33:11.769
The third layer is going to be a work API where you can call agents,

760
00:33:11.889 --> 00:33:12.729
call skills,

761
00:33:12.809 --> 00:33:16.870
call tools to actually go and conduct work autonomously.

762
00:33:17.050 --> 00:33:19.131
And so if you're a head of RevOps,

763
00:33:19.191 --> 00:33:19.891
sales ops,

764
00:33:19.991 --> 00:33:20.591
marketing ops,

765
00:33:20.592 --> 00:33:23.712
like you're going to go and do that and you're going to really love working in that way.

766
00:33:24.584 --> 00:33:25.945
If you are a non-technical person,

767
00:33:26.105 --> 00:33:26.605
you're a sales rep,

768
00:33:27.066 --> 00:33:27.526
you're a marketer,

769
00:33:28.607 --> 00:33:31.529
you're going to work with HubSpot in three kind of core ways.

770
00:33:31.749 --> 00:33:33.430
The first way is you're going to ask,

771
00:33:33.490 --> 00:33:34.811
you're going to use our

772
00:33:35.551 --> 00:33:36.192
Breeze assistant,

773
00:33:36.632 --> 00:33:38.533
which has gotten really remarkable.

774
00:33:38.694 --> 00:33:39.714
I use it every day now.

775
00:33:40.215 --> 00:33:41.896
You're going to build artifacts in it.

776
00:33:42.056 --> 00:33:51.562
You're going to interact with all of your context about your customers and the strategy you're trying to build and the tactics you're executing with the assistant.

777
00:33:52.203 --> 00:33:53.984
The second thing you're going to do is you're going to vibe code.

778
00:33:54.824 --> 00:33:55.925
You're going to build artifacts,

779
00:33:56.005 --> 00:33:57.106
you're going to build landing pages,

780
00:33:57.206 --> 00:34:01.810
you are going to use a traditional vibe coding editor experience where I'm a non technical person,

781
00:34:01.811 --> 00:34:03.231
but I can go and build a landing page,

782
00:34:03.672 --> 00:34:04.372
or build a,

783
00:34:04.853 --> 00:34:05.093
you know,

784
00:34:05.613 --> 00:34:06.634
a page for my webinar,

785
00:34:06.694 --> 00:34:10.337
whatever I might need as a marketer or seller to go out there and make my numbers.

786
00:34:10.938 --> 00:34:12.719
And then the third thing you do is going to build,

787
00:34:13.099 --> 00:34:15.121
you're going to build custom agents with no code.

788
00:34:15.762 --> 00:34:16.362
And you're going to,

789
00:34:17.023 --> 00:34:17.263
you know,

790
00:34:17.403 --> 00:34:23.188
build a modern AI agent for the given tasks you might have for your given role.

791
00:34:23.524 --> 00:34:24.564
to make you more productive.

792
00:34:24.865 --> 00:34:27.246
And if you're a technical person,

793
00:34:27.586 --> 00:34:28.546
you're building on the APIs.

794
00:34:28.547 --> 00:34:29.807
If you're a non-technical person,

795
00:34:29.808 --> 00:34:32.508
you're really working with HubSpot in those three ways.

796
00:34:32.568 --> 00:34:40.031
And obviously we have kind of premier agents that you might be working with as well to building custom agents,

797
00:34:40.091 --> 00:34:40.951
but you got to think of like,

798
00:34:41.011 --> 00:34:43.212
you're using building agents as that kind of last one.

799
00:34:44.753 --> 00:34:44.933
Okay.

800
00:34:46.834 --> 00:34:51.176
Maybe one of the questions I'm wondering recently is,

801
00:34:51.177 --> 00:34:51.296
you

802
00:34:52.672 --> 00:34:52.873
Like,

803
00:34:53.094 --> 00:34:54.601
I see the way

804
00:34:55.645 --> 00:34:56.991
I work has changed.

805
00:34:58.090 --> 00:35:00.292
dramatically in the past six months.

806
00:35:00.892 --> 00:35:01.272
Like

807
00:35:02.593 --> 00:35:04.174
I spend time on the terminal,

808
00:35:04.374 --> 00:35:06.075
which was never the case before,

809
00:35:06.095 --> 00:35:06.356
you know?

810
00:35:06.476 --> 00:35:06.736
Sure,

811
00:35:08.477 --> 00:35:08.797
And you know,

812
00:35:08.837 --> 00:35:09.218
for example,

813
00:35:09.318 --> 00:35:10.559
we are HubSpot's customer.

814
00:35:11.179 --> 00:35:13.220
And now I see that

815
00:35:13.681 --> 00:35:17.944
I work on HubSpot from my terminal.

816
00:35:19.645 --> 00:35:21.726
So I create campaigns and

817
00:35:22.146 --> 00:35:23.667
I manage my contacts,

818
00:35:23.668 --> 00:35:23.988
et cetera,

819
00:35:24.008 --> 00:35:24.328
et cetera.

820
00:35:24.468 --> 00:35:24.748
And so

821
00:35:25.749 --> 00:35:27.310
I spend less time.

822
00:35:27.654 --> 00:35:29.355
on HubSpot on the websites,

823
00:35:30.215 --> 00:35:34.116
but maybe I spend more time on HubSpot doing things on HubSpot,

824
00:35:34.376 --> 00:35:35.176
but from my terminal.

825
00:35:36.136 --> 00:35:37.737
And so I'm curious on the way.

826
00:35:38.297 --> 00:35:38.997
So first,

827
00:35:39.417 --> 00:35:40.758
do you see this shift?

828
00:35:40.838 --> 00:35:41.058
Like,

829
00:35:41.158 --> 00:35:42.198
because you've got the numbers,

830
00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:42.798
so you do,

831
00:35:42.878 --> 00:35:45.679
do you see these shifts on,

832
00:35:45.879 --> 00:35:50.180
on many customers and how do you see the future of this?

833
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:50.541
You know,

834
00:35:51.681 --> 00:35:55.502
the first thing I would tell you is that the

835
00:35:55.842 --> 00:36:14.014
chasm of adoption is very wide yeah sure and there are two groups there are many groups of people but the two primary groups are people like you people like me it's like i got terminal open i have codex open i have perplexing computer i've got breeze assistant i got freaking

836
00:36:14.115 --> 00:36:24.962
10 tasks running in parallel across all those things at one time right um and then there's people who are like i don't do anything with this ai stuff right and that's an oversimplification

837
00:36:25.062 --> 00:36:42.529
but there's there's a lot there and what you see from the people not doing much with ai that's where like just even like a core thing like breeze assistant which can like build some workflows for them and get them some of the data they're looking for and everything is a transformative experience sure

838
00:36:42.649 --> 00:36:53.454
now what you're asking me is for like the early early minority of like hey i'm a little little savvy i'm in this ai game i'm building some stuff what do you see

839
00:36:54.614 --> 00:36:55.014
First of all,

840
00:36:55.034 --> 00:36:59.897
you see anybody who's working in what we call like a connector.

841
00:37:00.017 --> 00:37:05.200
So it's like you have your stuff in cloud code or open a chat GPT or what have you,

842
00:37:05.220 --> 00:37:05.540
Codex,

843
00:37:05.620 --> 00:37:06.081
what have you.

844
00:37:07.141 --> 00:37:08.522
Use the product more and you get more value.

845
00:37:08.542 --> 00:37:10.483
Exactly.

846
00:37:11.524 --> 00:37:12.864
You're seeing what you're saying.

847
00:37:13.345 --> 00:37:15.446
And we don't particularly,

848
00:37:15.506 --> 00:37:17.667
I don't think it matters where that work happens.

849
00:37:18.107 --> 00:37:18.387
Candidly,

850
00:37:18.427 --> 00:37:21.029
what I care about is delivering the right outcomes to you.

851
00:37:22.590 --> 00:37:22.810
Right?

852
00:37:23.258 --> 00:37:25.360
And what I want to do is like,

853
00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:25.520
cool,

854
00:37:26.121 --> 00:37:26.561
if you're in

855
00:37:26.981 --> 00:37:27.502
Cloud Code,

856
00:37:27.503 --> 00:37:27.982
and that's awesome,

857
00:37:27.983 --> 00:37:31.926
and you want to run our prospecting agent out of Cloud Code with our CLI,

858
00:37:32.306 --> 00:37:32.787
go nuts,

859
00:37:32.847 --> 00:37:33.027
man.

860
00:37:33.587 --> 00:37:33.928
Have fun.

861
00:37:34.568 --> 00:37:34.708
Like,

862
00:37:34.709 --> 00:37:35.089
it's great.

863
00:37:35.449 --> 00:37:35.609
Like,

864
00:37:35.629 --> 00:37:36.290
I think that is a,

865
00:37:39.733 --> 00:37:42.295
anytime you have a new technology revolution,

866
00:37:43.036 --> 00:37:44.197
an artificial intelligence one,

867
00:37:44.257 --> 00:37:45.618
you have a really big unbundling.

868
00:37:46.379 --> 00:37:46.699
You know,

869
00:37:47.520 --> 00:37:49.442
you have lots of different platforms.

870
00:37:49.942 --> 00:37:50.662
and ways to work,

871
00:37:50.663 --> 00:37:51.403
and then over time,

872
00:37:51.423 --> 00:37:52.383
those things consolidate.

873
00:37:52.443 --> 00:37:52.564
So

874
00:37:53.284 --> 00:37:59.627
I think right now we're in an era where people need to be working in whatever works best for them and whatever we can deliver the best outcomes.

875
00:37:59.628 --> 00:38:05.411
And that's why we have that whole API and technical infrastructure layer to make that as easy as possible.

876
00:38:05.451 --> 00:38:11.414
And we feel very confident that the economics of us can work for us in either way,

877
00:38:11.474 --> 00:38:12.495
whether you're in the app or not.

878
00:38:12.995 --> 00:38:17.257
I suspect there will be certain things that you're going to want to be in the app more for over time.

879
00:38:18.118 --> 00:38:18.358
as you

880
00:38:18.458 --> 00:38:22.541
build more custom agents on HubSpot versus...

881
00:38:22.601 --> 00:38:22.782
Look,

882
00:38:22.962 --> 00:38:23.642
I'll be honest with you.

883
00:38:24.543 --> 00:38:25.904
Cloud code is not that fun.

884
00:38:27.045 --> 00:38:28.286
I know people are addicted to cloud code.

885
00:38:28.287 --> 00:38:29.187
I'm going to take a hot take.

886
00:38:29.507 --> 00:38:30.308
You know what's not fun?

887
00:38:31.129 --> 00:38:32.470
Hitting allow all the time,

888
00:38:33.891 --> 00:38:35.352
downloading files,

889
00:38:35.492 --> 00:38:36.753
uploading files,

890
00:38:36.873 --> 00:38:38.655
managing everything locally,

891
00:38:39.896 --> 00:38:43.939
having a very fragmented mobile versus desktop AI experience.

892
00:38:44.540 --> 00:38:46.922
It's the ultimate single-player experience.

893
00:38:47.570 --> 00:38:49.691
You're like super isolated from everybody.

894
00:38:50.051 --> 00:38:51.131
These are real drawbacks.

895
00:38:51.671 --> 00:38:52.811
These are not things that,

896
00:38:52.851 --> 00:38:56.132
especially if you're like me and you're running a real team of people that I think are good things.

897
00:38:57.453 --> 00:38:58.433
And they're good for like,

898
00:38:59.233 --> 00:39:00.954
if you are working on your task lists,

899
00:39:00.994 --> 00:39:01.654
I think they're fine.

900
00:39:01.655 --> 00:39:04.375
But if you're trying to collaborate and build with others,

901
00:39:04.415 --> 00:39:05.215
I don't think it's great.

902
00:39:05.495 --> 00:39:07.675
And I think for those things,

903
00:39:08.856 --> 00:39:11.156
you and other people will work more at HubSpot.

904
00:39:12.037 --> 00:39:12.157
Yeah,

905
00:39:12.477 --> 00:39:13.197
so two comments.

906
00:39:13.557 --> 00:39:14.037
One is,

907
00:39:14.397 --> 00:39:16.638
I think this is the next evolution of...

908
00:39:17.226 --> 00:39:18.147
tools like cloud,

909
00:39:18.187 --> 00:39:18.567
et cetera,

910
00:39:18.687 --> 00:39:19.688
like the multiplayer.

911
00:39:19.968 --> 00:39:20.249
Oh yeah.

912
00:39:20.409 --> 00:39:21.390
They're going to go that way for sure.

913
00:39:21.690 --> 00:39:21.830
Yeah.

914
00:39:22.130 --> 00:39:22.391
Because,

915
00:39:22.531 --> 00:39:24.152
because I think everybody agrees on this.

916
00:39:24.552 --> 00:39:25.173
Yeah.

917
00:39:25.393 --> 00:39:25.513
Um,

918
00:39:25.514 --> 00:39:25.994
second is.

919
00:39:26.454 --> 00:39:27.375
Not a controversial take.

920
00:39:27.555 --> 00:39:27.675
No,

921
00:39:27.835 --> 00:39:28.116
I agree.

922
00:39:28.117 --> 00:39:28.216
No,

923
00:39:30.598 --> 00:39:31.258
second thing is

924
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:33.821
I think as a marketer and,

925
00:39:33.961 --> 00:39:36.143
and maybe mostly on the product side,

926
00:39:36.443 --> 00:39:39.385
but what's interesting is that before you had to think about the product,

927
00:39:39.786 --> 00:39:42.688
like the user experience on only one surface,

928
00:39:42.848 --> 00:39:44.470
what was like your website.

929
00:39:44.966 --> 00:39:52.896
And now you have to think about the user experience on different surfaces because now you have to adapt to where people want to work on your product,

930
00:39:52.897 --> 00:39:53.136
you know,

931
00:39:53.536 --> 00:39:55.379
which is like more complexity,

932
00:39:55.539 --> 00:39:56.860
but I guess also more fun.

933
00:39:58.142 --> 00:39:58.402
But yeah,

934
00:39:58.883 --> 00:40:00.325
it's very interesting.

935
00:40:00.585 --> 00:40:03.488
And on this agent first type of company,

936
00:40:03.709 --> 00:40:04.490
one thing that you...

937
00:40:05.176 --> 00:40:09.039
changed also is the way you price the product,

938
00:40:09.099 --> 00:40:11.281
because now you've got part of your pricing model,

939
00:40:11.601 --> 00:40:13.183
which is outcome-based pricing.

940
00:40:13.843 --> 00:40:17.346
So how did you think about that?

941
00:40:18.767 --> 00:40:21.609
Because everybody's talking about outcome-based pricing,

942
00:40:21.669 --> 00:40:29.236
but it's a big decision on what type of outcome do you price the product?

943
00:40:29.836 --> 00:40:33.399
So I'm curious to know what's the behind the scenes.

944
00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:34.400
It's a good question.

945
00:40:34.860 --> 00:40:52.372
um well the first i'd say the the first initial uh part of this is that there's a big theme happening out in the world called token maxing right where it's like oh i just want to spend as many as many tokens as possible because i am getting i

946
00:40:52.392 --> 00:41:03.140
think i'm getting real value and it's kind of a flawed way of thinking in a bunch of ways it's like our thoughts it's the new flex yeah it's like the flex the flex should really be outcome maxing right Yeah.

947
00:41:03.864 --> 00:41:04.384
True.

948
00:41:04.385 --> 00:41:04.685
You know,

949
00:41:04.985 --> 00:41:05.865
part of it's like,

950
00:41:07.366 --> 00:41:09.707
show me massive growth because of all this stuff.

951
00:41:09.927 --> 00:41:10.488
And I don't,

952
00:41:10.489 --> 00:41:10.688
you know,

953
00:41:10.748 --> 00:41:11.028
you know,

954
00:41:11.168 --> 00:41:11.488
it's like,

955
00:41:11.748 --> 00:41:13.429
there's a lot of quote unquote efficiency,

956
00:41:13.489 --> 00:41:15.110
but not a lot of growth tied to it.

957
00:41:15.150 --> 00:41:18.212
So that's why you want to like do should be more about outcome maxing.

958
00:41:18.213 --> 00:41:20.273
And so if you're like in the outcome maxing camp,

959
00:41:20.313 --> 00:41:20.873
like we are,

960
00:41:21.434 --> 00:41:22.714
then I think it's fundamentally,

961
00:41:24.035 --> 00:41:24.275
okay,

962
00:41:24.315 --> 00:41:24.435
well,

963
00:41:24.436 --> 00:41:25.636
what are the right outcomes?

964
00:41:26.576 --> 00:41:28.958
And it's easier in some places than others,

965
00:41:30.518 --> 00:41:30.679
right?

966
00:41:30.699 --> 00:41:31.999
Like customer service,

967
00:41:32.660 --> 00:41:33.040
you know,

968
00:41:33.120 --> 00:41:33.240
if.

969
00:41:33.700 --> 00:41:55.230
you resolved a customer's question or not you know and and that's that is much more definable if you you know if you booked a meeting for a sales rep or not it's a lot harder in marketing that's why you don't see it in marketing yet i think we will figure it out but the i think the question behind your question is like how the heck do you think about it yeah

970
00:41:57.110 --> 00:42:00.612
you have to say what is the actual value

971
00:42:01.424 --> 00:42:03.485
my customers deriving from this outcome.

972
00:42:05.166 --> 00:42:05.766
And then you have to say,

973
00:42:05.806 --> 00:42:10.448
I have a wide and diverse set of customers that have very different business models.

974
00:42:11.048 --> 00:42:17.891
So I need to value this outcome in a way that works for everybody and still makes it economically viable for myself.

975
00:42:19.152 --> 00:42:19.432
Right.

976
00:42:19.572 --> 00:42:19.912
And that's,

977
00:42:19.952 --> 00:42:20.272
I think,

978
00:42:20.332 --> 00:42:22.333
the process that we largely went through.

979
00:42:23.073 --> 00:42:23.634
And,

980
00:42:24.074 --> 00:42:24.314
you know,

981
00:42:24.334 --> 00:42:24.474
like,

982
00:42:24.475 --> 00:42:24.974
for example,

983
00:42:25.034 --> 00:42:28.436
like our customer agent is 50 cents per resolution.

984
00:42:28.516 --> 00:42:29.036
I think.

985
00:42:29.972 --> 00:42:32.314
uh and its current resolution rates in the

986
00:42:32.815 --> 00:42:52.089
70s and so it's a really remarkable product and we decided to price it aggressively and you know really high quality product and it's one of the lowest cost products on the market right and so that's part of it is a strategy perspective of like how much do you want to optimize for short-term revenue versus market share right

987
00:42:53.610 --> 00:42:55.712
yeah okay um

988
00:42:56.176 --> 00:42:56.296
And,

989
00:42:56.356 --> 00:42:56.616
you know,

990
00:42:56.617 --> 00:43:04.841
I'm curious because you're doing all this repositioning in real time and like the outcome based pricing,

991
00:43:04.961 --> 00:43:06.562
the agent first company,

992
00:43:07.942 --> 00:43:08.142
blah,

993
00:43:09.303 --> 00:43:16.687
You one thing that is particular to you is that you are doing this publicly and you are a public company.

994
00:43:17.227 --> 00:43:17.367
And,

995
00:43:17.688 --> 00:43:17.928
you know,

996
00:43:17.988 --> 00:43:21.790
you've got you've got investors and you like you've got Wall Street.

997
00:43:22.150 --> 00:43:22.490
Basically,

998
00:43:22.530 --> 00:43:23.791
you've got Wall Street behind you,

999
00:43:23.811 --> 00:43:24.291
like watching.

1000
00:43:24.331 --> 00:43:25.572
yeah so

1001
00:43:26.620 --> 00:43:26.860
You know,

1002
00:43:27.721 --> 00:43:29.561
usually when you do this type of repositioning,

1003
00:43:29.601 --> 00:43:29.982
et cetera,

1004
00:43:30.102 --> 00:43:35.404
you try to be quiet to have like a private conversations and especially when you're a public company.

1005
00:43:35.824 --> 00:43:47.189
And so what do you do differently when every bond move has to land for both the buyers and

1006
00:43:47.529 --> 00:43:48.089
Wall Street?

1007
00:43:48.810 --> 00:43:49.010
Like,

1008
00:43:49.690 --> 00:43:50.930
how do you think about this?

1009
00:43:51.771 --> 00:43:51.911
Yeah.

1010
00:43:52.051 --> 00:43:53.592
So when you think about,

1011
00:43:54.232 --> 00:43:54.452
like,

1012
00:43:55.296 --> 00:43:56.497
public company or not public company.

1013
00:43:56.557 --> 00:44:02.603
I actually think being a public company is a very healthy thing in this process because what you're essentially saying is,

1014
00:44:02.623 --> 00:44:02.803
hey,

1015
00:44:03.884 --> 00:44:07.908
I want to deliver the customer the value they want and the value they need.

1016
00:44:08.069 --> 00:44:11.632
And I want to be a long-term durable solution by giving them the value,

1017
00:44:11.892 --> 00:44:12.913
like the value we provide you,

1018
00:44:13.094 --> 00:44:13.294
right?

1019
00:44:14.135 --> 00:44:17.398
But the public company side is like,

1020
00:44:17.458 --> 00:44:17.578
oh,

1021
00:44:17.678 --> 00:44:19.420
there are some like time guardrails.

1022
00:44:19.836 --> 00:44:20.957
in which that needs to happen,

1023
00:44:21.217 --> 00:44:21.337
right?

1024
00:44:21.338 --> 00:44:23.218
Because you could be very altruistic and you could,

1025
00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:25.399
there are a bunch of bad companies that have just been like,

1026
00:44:25.419 --> 00:44:25.639
hey,

1027
00:44:26.360 --> 00:44:28.781
I'm going to like do all this stuff for my customers.

1028
00:44:28.782 --> 00:44:32.783
I'll worry about monetization and they just do stuff for years and never make enough progress,

1029
00:44:33.303 --> 00:44:33.543
right?

1030
00:44:33.663 --> 00:44:35.424
And so I think of it as like,

1031
00:44:36.085 --> 00:44:36.225
hey,

1032
00:44:36.665 --> 00:44:44.709
we have like important time horizon and transparency around the evolution of this company and that's okay.

1033
00:44:45.690 --> 00:44:46.370
And

1034
00:44:47.631 --> 00:44:49.412
I've learned in this

1035
00:44:49.752 --> 00:44:52.135
life that everything always balances out,

1036
00:44:54.157 --> 00:44:54.457
you know,

1037
00:44:54.998 --> 00:44:57.220
everything always doesn't go up forever.

1038
00:44:58.021 --> 00:44:58.402
You know,

1039
00:44:59.563 --> 00:45:00.184
everything,

1040
00:45:01.806 --> 00:45:06.251
everything is not just a popularity contest or rational judgment,

1041
00:45:06.311 --> 00:45:06.531
right?

1042
00:45:08.299 --> 00:45:14.583
There was a period of time where it is always going to be a period of time where certain companies are going to be favored and certain companies are going to be unfavored.

1043
00:45:14.804 --> 00:45:15.264
First of all,

1044
00:45:16.465 --> 00:45:21.968
there's always going to be an evolution of how companies and people are measured and how they're doing.

1045
00:45:22.549 --> 00:45:22.789
Right.

1046
00:45:23.149 --> 00:45:23.730
But ultimately,

1047
00:45:23.810 --> 00:45:25.791
can I provide differentiated value to my customer?

1048
00:45:27.332 --> 00:45:28.673
And I can if I can do that,

1049
00:45:28.953 --> 00:45:35.618
I can be very clear about how I articulate that story and the way that my customer and future customers understand that,

1050
00:45:36.038 --> 00:45:36.979
then I should be able.

1051
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:38.520
to get my employees,

1052
00:45:38.740 --> 00:45:39.461
my investors,

1053
00:45:40.021 --> 00:45:40.822
there's a lot of stakeholders,

1054
00:45:40.862 --> 00:45:41.042
right?

1055
00:45:41.222 --> 00:45:42.383
On board with that mission.

1056
00:45:42.944 --> 00:45:43.444
And

1057
00:45:43.864 --> 00:45:46.827
I think the biggest challenge here is trying to not do too much.

1058
00:45:48.268 --> 00:45:49.489
There's a lot going on in the world.

1059
00:45:49.830 --> 00:45:52.692
And can you do enough without doing too much?

1060
00:45:53.453 --> 00:45:53.773
It's not easy.

1061
00:45:54.834 --> 00:45:54.954
Oh,

1062
00:45:54.974 --> 00:45:55.094
no,

1063
00:45:55.154 --> 00:45:55.615
it's not easy.

1064
00:45:55.635 --> 00:45:55.995
Not easy.

1065
00:45:56.856 --> 00:45:57.577
And especially now,

1066
00:45:57.617 --> 00:46:00.099
because there is so much FOMO around AI,

1067
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:00.479
et cetera.

1068
00:46:00.739 --> 00:46:01.080
Totally.

1069
00:46:01.640 --> 00:46:03.922
Everybody's pushing you to do more and more and more.

1070
00:46:04.122 --> 00:46:04.443
And so...

1071
00:46:04.903 --> 00:46:05.043
Yeah,

1072
00:46:05.083 --> 00:46:06.084
of course I want to do more,

1073
00:46:06.104 --> 00:46:09.446
but also I have to focus on some of the things that really move the needle.

1074
00:46:09.486 --> 00:46:09.766
And so

1075
00:46:10.947 --> 00:46:12.328
I think it's really tricky.

1076
00:46:12.789 --> 00:46:13.089
All right.

1077
00:46:13.449 --> 00:46:14.750
Also,

1078
00:46:15.250 --> 00:46:19.373
one thing is that you see CMOs from two angles,

1079
00:46:19.553 --> 00:46:22.596
and I think very few people get to see this this way.

1080
00:46:23.016 --> 00:46:25.958
So you're running marketing at HubSpot for

1081
00:46:26.298 --> 00:46:27.059
15 years,

1082
00:46:27.799 --> 00:46:31.902
but you're also sitting on the boards of some companies like Gusto,

1083
00:46:32.042 --> 00:46:32.503
SimilarWeb.

1084
00:46:32.823 --> 00:46:32.943
Yeah.

1085
00:46:33.455 --> 00:46:35.016
And so you watch other

1086
00:46:35.637 --> 00:46:36.878
CMOs do their thing.

1087
00:46:37.098 --> 00:46:37.418
Totally.

1088
00:46:37.458 --> 00:46:39.520
And so from the board seat,

1089
00:46:40.261 --> 00:46:43.243
what do you see makes a CMO good versus great?

1090
00:46:43.643 --> 00:46:44.904
That's a really good question.

1091
00:46:47.527 --> 00:46:47.907
First of all,

1092
00:46:48.247 --> 00:46:48.587
I mean,

1093
00:46:49.188 --> 00:46:50.609
I think being a CMO is a hard job,

1094
00:46:52.190 --> 00:46:52.431
right?

1095
00:46:53.672 --> 00:46:57.455
The first job of being a CMO is to realize that the CEO is the CMO,

1096
00:46:58.295 --> 00:46:58.495
right?

1097
00:46:59.476 --> 00:47:02.299
And so you have to realize that you're in service to...

1098
00:47:03.279 --> 00:47:05.480
a CEO or a founder and what they're trying to do.

1099
00:47:05.980 --> 00:47:06.200
Right.

1100
00:47:06.380 --> 00:47:06.620
And so

1101
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.821
I think the really great CMOs understand that,

1102
00:47:10.921 --> 00:47:12.161
but they understand when to challenge,

1103
00:47:13.842 --> 00:47:14.102
right?

1104
00:47:14.122 --> 00:47:14.402
It's like,

1105
00:47:14.403 --> 00:47:16.102
they're not just rubber stamping everything.

1106
00:47:16.122 --> 00:47:16.243
The,

1107
00:47:16.463 --> 00:47:17.943
the CEO founder wants,

1108
00:47:18.783 --> 00:47:19.063
right.

1109
00:47:19.183 --> 00:47:19.543
Cause that's,

1110
00:47:19.603 --> 00:47:20.644
that's not good either.

1111
00:47:21.104 --> 00:47:21.364
You know,

1112
00:47:21.484 --> 00:47:21.604
the,

1113
00:47:21.764 --> 00:47:21.884
the,

1114
00:47:21.944 --> 00:47:22.604
the really good C

1115
00:47:23.004 --> 00:47:28.386
CMOs figure out how to balance their point of view and the founder's point of view to come out with a better joint point of view.

1116
00:47:28.766 --> 00:47:29.166
That's one.

1117
00:47:30.446 --> 00:47:30.566
Two,

1118
00:47:30.786 --> 00:47:32.327
they run their team.

1119
00:47:33.043 --> 00:47:33.804
like Sequoia,

1120
00:47:33.884 --> 00:47:34.965
not the bond markets,

1121
00:47:36.246 --> 00:47:36.506
right?

1122
00:47:37.007 --> 00:47:39.689
They have this portfolio strategy that's asymmetric.

1123
00:47:40.230 --> 00:47:43.553
So they have bets that they're making across their marketing team,

1124
00:47:44.414 --> 00:47:45.254
some of which are going to fail,

1125
00:47:45.334 --> 00:47:47.116
some of which are going to have really high returns,

1126
00:47:48.257 --> 00:47:53.062
instead of a bunch of very low incremental return bets.

1127
00:47:53.922 --> 00:47:55.023
So what does that mean tactically?

1128
00:47:56.785 --> 00:47:58.847
I've talked to a lot of marketers who I don't think

1129
00:47:59.027 --> 00:48:01.429
are as strong as they could be over the years because they're just like,

1130
00:48:01.430 --> 00:48:01.569
well,

1131
00:48:01.570 --> 00:48:02.970
I'm going to optimize some paid campaigns.

1132
00:48:02.971 --> 00:48:04.531
I'm going to do some email marketing.

1133
00:48:04.532 --> 00:48:06.432
I'm going to do some basic product marketing.

1134
00:48:07.273 --> 00:48:08.694
And it's like the best CMOs are like,

1135
00:48:08.954 --> 00:48:09.074
no,

1136
00:48:09.234 --> 00:48:16.239
I have found a couple of tactics that are unique to my company that I'm going all in on that I think could double,

1137
00:48:16.299 --> 00:48:16.639
triple,

1138
00:48:16.699 --> 00:48:19.741
quadruple our marketing awareness or our demand.

1139
00:48:21.663 --> 00:48:22.844
And yes,

1140
00:48:22.884 --> 00:48:25.646
I'm still going to do some of that other kind of table stakes stuff,

1141
00:48:25.726 --> 00:48:27.567
but I've got real asymmetry.

1142
00:48:27.847 --> 00:48:46.122
in the stuff that i'm doing and i'm gonna get real uh real benefit there uh great cmos are also really good system builders and principal thinkers you know they're closer to engineers than they are marketing i believe is much closer to engineering than it is sales in terms of like mindset skills uh

1143
00:48:46.402 --> 00:48:53.288
necessary to be really good at it uh because you gotta remember being a cmo what kind of stinks about it is that like

1144
00:48:55.230 --> 00:48:57.011
I'm supposed to know how to

1145
00:48:57.071 --> 00:49:16.059
plan a 15 000 person event build a remarkable website the api security documentation of all these platforms that we're trying to integrate and build our marketing on how to perfectly position products how to produce a remarkable brand campaign how

1146
00:49:16.060 --> 00:49:25.363
to optimize research how to run remarkable ads how to do all these things we're like if you're running a sales team that's a very hard job but everybody you

1147
00:49:25.903 --> 00:49:26.504
everybody's selling,

1148
00:49:26.564 --> 00:49:26.784
you know,

1149
00:49:26.785 --> 00:49:29.947
it's a very similar job profile where a CMO it's like,

1150
00:49:30.407 --> 00:49:35.992
so can the person learn and get to breadth on those things becomes really important.

1151
00:49:36.452 --> 00:49:37.913
And can they hire really well?

1152
00:49:37.993 --> 00:49:41.176
Because especially around topics that they don't know well,

1153
00:49:41.957 --> 00:49:42.077
yeah.

1154
00:49:42.717 --> 00:49:42.917
Right.

1155
00:49:42.957 --> 00:49:47.822
Because they have blind spots in those areas because you can't be great at all that stuff.

1156
00:49:48.242 --> 00:49:48.682
It's very hard.

1157
00:49:48.722 --> 00:49:48.862
Yeah.

1158
00:49:49.323 --> 00:49:49.583
Very hard.

1159
00:49:49.623 --> 00:49:49.743
Yeah.

1160
00:49:50.204 --> 00:49:52.465
And I think this is the main challenge for CMOs is like,

1161
00:49:52.926 --> 00:49:54.167
usually what I say also to my...

1162
00:49:54.367 --> 00:49:55.107
clients is like,

1163
00:49:55.248 --> 00:49:55.408
yeah,

1164
00:49:55.968 --> 00:49:57.549
you think about marketing as one job,

1165
00:49:57.569 --> 00:49:59.110
but marketing is actually 15 jobs,

1166
00:49:59.630 --> 00:50:01.311
like it's SEO and paid and blah,

1167
00:50:01.312 --> 00:50:01.431
blah,

1168
00:50:02.392 --> 00:50:06.935
And so you can't have someone doing like an experts in all of these domains.

1169
00:50:07.553 --> 00:50:10.515
But the thing is that because they're not experts in all these domains,

1170
00:50:10.775 --> 00:50:11.315
some people,

1171
00:50:11.355 --> 00:50:16.819
they can really bullshit their way to make you think they're experts when they're not.

1172
00:50:17.399 --> 00:50:17.620
And so,

1173
00:50:17.700 --> 00:50:17.820
yeah,

1174
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:19.141
it's actually really,

1175
00:50:19.181 --> 00:50:19.541
really hard.

1176
00:50:19.861 --> 00:50:20.121
All right.

1177
00:50:20.541 --> 00:50:21.662
I've got one last question.

1178
00:50:21.942 --> 00:50:22.343
Let's do it.

1179
00:50:23.103 --> 00:50:29.467
What do you think is the best way to lose my board's trust in 2026 if I'm a CMO?

1180
00:50:31.008 --> 00:50:32.109
Do what you've always been doing.

1181
00:50:35.489 --> 00:50:37.110
This is a time for transformation,

1182
00:50:37.170 --> 00:50:37.970
not the status quo,

1183
00:50:40.071 --> 00:50:40.311
right?

1184
00:50:40.491 --> 00:50:41.672
And I think the board,

1185
00:50:42.852 --> 00:50:43.873
any board members out there,

1186
00:50:44.253 --> 00:50:46.154
like they're a participant in the world and they're like,

1187
00:50:46.155 --> 00:50:46.254
oh,

1188
00:50:46.274 --> 00:50:46.694
yeah,

1189
00:50:46.734 --> 00:50:48.275
I'm doing these things differently.

1190
00:50:48.755 --> 00:50:50.735
I'm talking to all these other people who are doing these things differently.

1191
00:50:51.096 --> 00:50:52.296
And this person's coming to me,

1192
00:50:52.516 --> 00:50:53.877
this market person's coming to me and tell me,

1193
00:50:53.897 --> 00:50:54.057
hey,

1194
00:50:54.757 --> 00:50:54.877
well,

1195
00:50:54.878 --> 00:50:55.818
this was our plan last year.

1196
00:50:55.819 --> 00:50:57.618
This is basically going to be the same plan next year.

1197
00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:00.279
And we're just going to drag the spreadsheet and all that stuff.

1198
00:51:01.020 --> 00:51:04.161
And that's the surest way.

1199
00:51:04.613 --> 00:51:05.754
to fail right now.

1200
00:51:06.394 --> 00:51:10.377
And it's the most likely way because change is really hard and scary,

1201
00:51:11.658 --> 00:51:11.878
right?

1202
00:51:12.659 --> 00:51:14.220
And so it's the easiest thing to do is say,

1203
00:51:14.260 --> 00:51:15.321
I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing.

1204
00:51:16.622 --> 00:51:16.742
But

1205
00:51:17.262 --> 00:51:20.104
I would posit that it is for sure the easiest way to fail.

1206
00:51:21.245 --> 00:51:21.405
Well,

1207
00:51:21.585 --> 00:51:21.785
Kip,

1208
00:51:22.106 --> 00:51:22.666
thank you very much.

1209
00:51:23.827 --> 00:51:25.708
For the people who want to follow your work,

1210
00:51:26.028 --> 00:51:26.489
LinkedIn,

1211
00:51:26.549 --> 00:51:27.730
Marketing Against the Grain.

1212
00:51:28.010 --> 00:51:28.230
Yeah,

1213
00:51:28.590 --> 00:51:31.853
hit up Marketing Against the Grain on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

1214
00:51:32.733 --> 00:51:34.575
on LinkedIn or X.com.

1215
00:51:34.655 --> 00:51:37.136
I hang out most of my time on both of those spots.

1216
00:51:37.337 --> 00:51:38.638
I'm Kip Bodnar on both of them.

1217
00:51:38.958 --> 00:51:39.218
Alright.

1218
00:51:39.518 --> 00:51:39.758
Thank you,

1219
00:51:39.759 --> 00:51:39.919
Kip.

1220
00:51:40.279 --> 00:51:40.459
Thanks,

1221
00:51:40.460 --> 00:51:40.639
Jordan.

1222
00:51:40.640 --> 00:51:41.320
Appreciate you having me.

1223
00:51:41.720 --> 00:51:41.880
Thanks,

1224
00:51:41.900 --> 00:51:42.140
everyone.

1225
00:51:42.941 --> 00:51:43.521
Do it

1226
00:51:45.062 --> 00:51:46.323
Just do it

1227
00:51:47.844 --> 00:51:49.966
Don't let your dreams be dreams.

1228
00:51:50.927 --> 00:51:52.568
Yesterday you said tomorrow,

1229
00:51:52.828 --> 00:51:54.489
so just do it

1230
00:51:54.930 --> 00:51:56.991
Make your dreams come true

1231
00:51:57.652 --> 00:51:59.093
Just do it