WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.624 --> 00:00:00.924 70% 2 00:00:01.444 --> 00:00:03.725 of the land is at desertification. 3 00:00:04.264 --> 00:00:07.444 So it is already losing the productive capacity. 4 00:00:07.667 --> 00:00:13.069 A forest is much more productive than any kind of agricultural systems because, 5 00:00:13.070 --> 00:00:13.624 for example, 6 00:00:13.671 --> 00:00:15.647 they absorb 99% 7 00:00:16.030 --> 00:00:17.350 of the sunlight. 8 00:00:17.850 --> 00:00:21.194 We also need to implement the payment for the ecosystem services. 9 00:00:22.053 --> 00:00:23.506 This is a crucial mechanism. 10 00:00:23.585 --> 00:00:25.397 Everybody wants to have clean water, 11 00:00:25.944 --> 00:00:26.522 clean air. 12 00:00:27.328 --> 00:00:32.974 Welcome back to The Deep Seed and today we have episode 3 of the mini-series about Val di Bella. 13 00:00:33.556 --> 00:00:35.837 Today I'm interviewing Rafael Bueno. 14 00:00:36.275 --> 00:00:44.978 He is a professor and researcher in ecology and together we dive into some of the biggest topics and questions in agriculture right now. 15 00:00:45.541 --> 00:00:53.634 We talk about the massive problem of desertification in Sicily but also in many other parts of the world and how that's related to farming and how... 16 00:00:54.112 --> 00:00:57.196 By using regenerative agriculture methods and principles, 17 00:00:57.197 --> 00:00:59.035 we can actually reverse that. 18 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:07.364 We also talk about farming subsidies and the urgent need to stop financing desertification and instead start financing regeneration. 19 00:01:07.926 --> 00:01:10.653 This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital. 20 00:01:11.387 --> 00:01:14.496 I'm your host Raphael and this is the Deep Seed Podcast. 21 00:01:22.792 --> 00:01:24.494 So my name is Rafael Bueno, 22 00:01:24.814 --> 00:01:36.988 I'm a Brazilian ecologist and I'm a researcher in the University of Palermo and I work particularly with my main interests are on the role of ecological interactions, 23 00:01:38.050 --> 00:01:41.636 conservation of biodiversity and agroecology and then 24 00:01:42.449 --> 00:01:52.183 I apply this the scientific knowledge in the field working together with farmers or with the stakeholders like for public management of 25 00:01:52.308 --> 00:01:54.630 protected the areas and so on. 26 00:01:54.710 --> 00:01:55.892 My role in Valdibela, 27 00:01:56.112 --> 00:02:07.140 I met Massimiliano a long time ago and we began talking about the relationship of biodiversity and agriculture and then I participated in 28 00:02:07.561 --> 00:02:08.538 Seminario Futuro, 29 00:02:08.851 --> 00:02:12.694 an event that they made to sow in the wheat, 30 00:02:13.522 --> 00:02:14.663 the old varieties of wheat, 31 00:02:14.710 --> 00:02:17.132 and then later we have a moment of discussion. 32 00:02:17.684 --> 00:02:24.369 And then he invited me to make a presentation about this relationship of biodiversity in agriculture. 33 00:02:24.810 --> 00:02:35.939 And then from there we began collaborating together within Valdibella and also applying this scientific point of view of the agricultural systems. 34 00:02:37.236 --> 00:02:42.345 What inspired you in the first place to become an ecologist and to work in agriculture? 35 00:02:43.642 --> 00:02:43.830 Well, 36 00:02:43.986 --> 00:02:45.267 I was born in São Paulo. 37 00:02:45.564 --> 00:02:46.689 São Paulo which is now 38 00:02:46.868 --> 00:02:47.929 20 million people, 39 00:02:48.469 --> 00:02:55.973 but my parents got a small piece of land in the interior and so I grew up there in the field, 40 00:02:56.075 --> 00:03:08.848 so we cultivated and had some animals and so from there I became inspired and also we promoted the restoration because it was at the beginning a degraded land and then we began this work to produce, 41 00:03:08.849 --> 00:03:09.129 you know, 42 00:03:09.770 --> 00:03:10.473 agricultural... 43 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:15.221 part of the land but also to restore the degraded areas, 44 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.141 particularly the water system. 45 00:03:17.782 --> 00:03:18.563 And then from there 46 00:03:19.321 --> 00:03:23.563 I began thinking that this should be my way, 47 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:24.423 my pathway, 48 00:03:25.087 --> 00:03:37.938 and then I got my bachelor in ecology and then this was of course my confirmation that this was what I would like to do and to join this nature conservation. 49 00:03:38.472 --> 00:03:39.413 with agriculture. 50 00:03:39.613 --> 00:03:42.894 So how to bring them together to make a good production. 51 00:03:42.937 --> 00:03:47.504 We need agriculture but mostly agriculture is also the problem. 52 00:03:47.980 --> 00:03:57.207 So to get the solution from the problem and then mixing together with natural conservation. 53 00:03:57.208 --> 00:03:59.207 Okay yeah. 54 00:03:59.208 --> 00:04:04.316 When you watch TV and you see the news and you see the political debates about agriculture 55 00:04:05.761 --> 00:04:09.446 It seems like there's an opposition between nature and agriculture. 56 00:04:10.106 --> 00:04:10.985 What do you think about that? 57 00:04:11.626 --> 00:04:11.907 Yes, 58 00:04:12.028 --> 00:04:16.188 unfortunately there is this opposition because in general, 59 00:04:16.251 --> 00:04:17.391 not only in agriculture, 60 00:04:17.469 --> 00:04:21.704 but our society is generally opposed to nature. 61 00:04:21.891 --> 00:04:23.891 We cannot see, 62 00:04:24.126 --> 00:04:31.813 we have difficulties to see how we need nature and how to get this sustainable development which is clearly... 63 00:04:32.460 --> 00:04:49.552 feasible but there are many difficulties to from the political side but also the society you know the common people they don't don't see often they see a piece of land of a forest but they cannot see that we need this 64 00:04:49.661 --> 00:04:57.021 piece of natural environment to have our water to have the all the ecosystem functionings and services that we need. 65 00:04:57.630 --> 00:04:58.630 So yeah, 66 00:04:58.724 --> 00:05:00.005 it's quite difficult. 67 00:05:00.048 --> 00:05:08.278 It's difficult to try to make them understand that both things need to go together, 68 00:05:08.356 --> 00:05:09.637 otherwise it will be... 69 00:05:09.981 --> 00:05:11.036 it is already difficult, 70 00:05:11.520 --> 00:05:13.020 our survival in the planet. 71 00:05:13.364 --> 00:05:17.403 So in my work I try to make the scientific part, 72 00:05:17.528 --> 00:05:19.028 but also the dissemination, 73 00:05:19.481 --> 00:05:21.591 to try to at least show data. 74 00:05:22.728 --> 00:05:31.416 that we need to change the way we are managing our system towards a more sustainable way of living. 75 00:05:32.776 --> 00:05:39.862 Could you maybe describe a particular scenario or example where improving nature, 76 00:05:39.909 --> 00:05:43.487 improving biodiversity is actually for the farmer's benefit? 77 00:05:45.284 --> 00:05:45.518 Yeah, 78 00:05:45.674 --> 00:05:50.877 actually let's just think about the soil for example. 79 00:05:52.144 --> 00:05:52.605 After the 80 00:05:53.325 --> 00:05:54.286 Green Revolution, 81 00:05:54.808 --> 00:05:57.030 where nature became the enemy, 82 00:05:57.148 --> 00:05:57.589 more or less, 83 00:05:58.472 --> 00:06:02.191 we have lots of degraded soils here in Sicily, 84 00:06:02.214 --> 00:06:03.714 but not only in Sicily. 85 00:06:04.433 --> 00:06:05.480 And in this case, 86 00:06:05.534 --> 00:06:07.362 it's this degradation, 87 00:06:07.417 --> 00:06:09.073 this desertification process, 88 00:06:09.183 --> 00:06:16.792 which is the loss of the productive capacity of a former area that was productive before. 89 00:06:18.214 --> 00:06:19.370 In this way we 90 00:06:20.332 --> 00:06:27.619 See these soils and they are just clay sand and the mineral part, 91 00:06:27.998 --> 00:06:45.190 we have lost the biological part of the soil and this I think is a good indicator on how to we need to improve the biodiversity beginning with the soils that we need for agriculture but also if we take into account the the whole and 92 00:06:45.832 --> 00:06:50.797 ecological networks that are behind the agricultural systems and the natural system. 93 00:06:51.337 --> 00:06:52.598 For the biological control, 94 00:06:52.661 --> 00:06:53.180 for example, 95 00:06:53.181 --> 00:06:53.981 of pests, 96 00:06:54.598 --> 00:07:01.208 but also the antagonisms of the natural fungi that has in the soil against the damage, 97 00:07:01.833 --> 00:07:05.270 the fungi that creates a lot of problems in agriculture. 98 00:07:05.786 --> 00:07:15.036 So this gradual loss of biodiversity in agricultural systems at the same time created the loss of ecosystem services. 99 00:07:15.356 --> 00:07:16.996 that we need to farm. 100 00:07:17.017 --> 00:07:18.077 And this is always, 101 00:07:19.058 --> 00:07:26.976 we find the conventional systems always fighting and need to use even more herbicides, 102 00:07:26.999 --> 00:07:27.882 fungicides, 103 00:07:27.921 --> 00:07:34.327 because of course they are fighting against the natural way of conducting the system. 104 00:07:34.437 --> 00:07:36.780 And this is a lost battle. 105 00:07:38.327 --> 00:07:42.546 If we focus specifically on the water issue, 106 00:07:42.796 --> 00:07:43.796 we're in Sicily here, 107 00:07:44.904 --> 00:07:46.225 We have a changing climate, 108 00:07:46.366 --> 00:07:47.167 getting hotter, 109 00:07:47.286 --> 00:07:47.747 drier, 110 00:07:47.927 --> 00:07:49.050 with shorter, 111 00:07:49.327 --> 00:07:51.030 more intense rain events. 112 00:07:53.292 --> 00:08:00.120 Could you describe how improving biodiversity helps being more resilient in the face of climate change? 113 00:08:00.744 --> 00:08:00.904 Yeah, 114 00:08:01.365 --> 00:08:05.108 we need to consider that this scenario that we see in Sicily was not like that, 115 00:08:05.229 --> 00:08:06.010 because Sicily, 116 00:08:06.409 --> 00:08:10.151 I also select this place because Sicily was covered by forests before, 117 00:08:10.152 --> 00:08:10.276 no? 118 00:08:10.573 --> 00:08:11.573 Almost all Sicily. 119 00:08:11.932 --> 00:08:17.401 This was the natural vegetation and it was full of rivers, 120 00:08:17.557 --> 00:08:18.823 full of water sources, 121 00:08:18.901 --> 00:08:24.510 because trees or the vegetation in general are the protection of the water, 122 00:08:24.573 --> 00:08:24.682 no? 123 00:08:24.995 --> 00:08:25.510 They are the... 124 00:08:27.432 --> 00:08:29.479 we need them to have the water. 125 00:08:29.760 --> 00:08:30.741 the water cycle, 126 00:08:30.941 --> 00:08:32.041 the water sources, 127 00:08:32.061 --> 00:08:32.701 the rivers. 128 00:08:33.282 --> 00:08:34.860 So increasing biodiversity, 129 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:35.539 for example, 130 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:44.086 creating agroforestry systems and letting the water sources or the borders of the rivers with a more tree-like vegetation, 131 00:08:44.883 --> 00:08:49.539 this already could improve a lot the conservation of the water, 132 00:08:49.727 --> 00:08:52.664 and of course increase the organic matter in the soil. 133 00:08:53.132 --> 00:08:53.733 Because 1% 134 00:08:54.154 --> 00:09:01.802 of organic matter is capable of storing more than hundreds of thousands of liters of water in the soil. 135 00:09:02.380 --> 00:09:09.927 So adopt practices that improve the biodiversity in the sense of the biological life of the soil. 136 00:09:10.255 --> 00:09:11.583 So the nutrient cycling, 137 00:09:11.724 --> 00:09:17.833 the organic matter creation and decomposition would already benefit a lot in their water system. 138 00:09:18.052 --> 00:09:19.036 So the water cycle, 139 00:09:19.099 --> 00:09:22.427 the conservation of the soil and increase the presence of trees. 140 00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:23.420 Okay, 141 00:09:23.800 --> 00:09:26.340 but a lot of farmers will see reforesting, 142 00:09:26.381 --> 00:09:27.080 for example, 143 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:32.225 like counterproductive because they're taking productive land out of production to reforest. 144 00:09:32.623 --> 00:09:39.209 Even though it has this ecological benefit that their production will benefit from because they have more water in the soil and things like that. 145 00:09:41.288 --> 00:09:42.725 So how do you solve that issue? 146 00:09:42.726 --> 00:09:45.350 How do you convince farmers that it's a good idea to plant trees? 147 00:09:45.991 --> 00:09:51.522 Do we need them to find this combination of food producing trees like agroforestry? 148 00:09:51.663 --> 00:09:52.053 or yeah 149 00:09:53.012 --> 00:09:53.132 Yeah, 150 00:09:53.192 --> 00:09:53.372 well, 151 00:09:53.693 --> 00:09:59.560 actually there are several examples of highly productive systems that use trees together, 152 00:09:59.580 --> 00:09:59.697 no? 153 00:09:59.900 --> 00:10:01.017 Agroforestry systems. 154 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:04.025 And if you talk about productivity, 155 00:10:04.283 --> 00:10:09.689 a forest is much more productive than any kind of agricultural systems because, 156 00:10:09.690 --> 00:10:10.236 for example, 157 00:10:10.283 --> 00:10:12.486 they absorb 99% 158 00:10:12.626 --> 00:10:13.970 of the sunlight. 159 00:10:14.470 --> 00:10:14.970 Instead, 160 00:10:15.111 --> 00:10:16.642 most of the fields that we saw here, 161 00:10:17.423 --> 00:10:19.142 the sun goes directly to the soil. 162 00:10:19.836 --> 00:10:27.422 And it's important to remember that the only natural system where the soil is not protected by vegetation are the deserts. 163 00:10:27.981 --> 00:10:29.082 All the other systems, 164 00:10:29.106 --> 00:10:30.184 the soil is covered, 165 00:10:30.410 --> 00:10:31.809 both from the grassland, 166 00:10:31.887 --> 00:10:34.449 but particularly from forest trees. 167 00:10:34.512 --> 00:10:42.035 So this is the natural message that over hundreds of millions of evolution say the soil must be protected. 168 00:10:42.895 --> 00:10:43.676 On the other side, 169 00:10:43.723 --> 00:10:44.457 the farmers can say, 170 00:10:44.473 --> 00:10:44.598 no, 171 00:10:44.676 --> 00:10:47.160 but to have trees, 172 00:10:47.348 --> 00:10:48.910 I lost my productivity. 173 00:10:49.472 --> 00:10:50.713 But on the other side, 174 00:10:50.753 --> 00:10:51.154 we have, 175 00:10:51.194 --> 00:10:51.593 for example, 176 00:10:51.594 --> 00:10:52.175 in Sicily, 177 00:10:52.234 --> 00:10:53.597 but in many parts of the world, 178 00:10:53.636 --> 00:10:56.257 70% 179 00:10:56.781 --> 00:10:59.058 of the land is at desertification. 180 00:10:59.581 --> 00:11:02.769 So it is already losing the productive capacity. 181 00:11:03.105 --> 00:11:08.409 Also if we go to walk in the fields after a strong rain. 182 00:11:09.258 --> 00:11:13.081 which are the increasing phenomenon in this climate change, 183 00:11:13.082 --> 00:11:13.263 you know, 184 00:11:13.361 --> 00:11:15.025 this very concentrated rain, 185 00:11:15.923 --> 00:11:17.146 we see a lot of erosion. 186 00:11:17.607 --> 00:11:18.771 And if you have erosion, 187 00:11:18.849 --> 00:11:22.154 you don't have any more agricultural productivity. 188 00:11:22.591 --> 00:11:32.716 So it's a wrong way of seeing trees as enemies because we are already losing a lot of productivity with this conventional system, 189 00:11:32.717 --> 00:11:32.966 you know, 190 00:11:33.060 --> 00:11:34.044 moving the soil, 191 00:11:34.841 --> 00:11:37.185 plowing and burning organic matter, 192 00:11:37.669 --> 00:11:38.326 erosion. 193 00:11:39.242 --> 00:11:41.624 And we can see that walking on the field. 194 00:11:41.665 --> 00:11:51.614 So I think it's a wrong way of seeing the system to say that to have trees or keep some pieces of lands with more natural vegetation, 195 00:11:52.255 --> 00:11:53.278 it's counterproductive. 196 00:11:54.638 --> 00:11:58.903 I guess most people who are knowledgeable about agroecology would agree with you, 197 00:11:59.481 --> 00:12:00.684 but the majority of farmers, 198 00:12:00.950 --> 00:12:06.669 they probably need to see concrete examples of of that happening and prove that those farmers who try that 199 00:12:07.326 --> 00:12:08.448 are improving their system, 200 00:12:08.667 --> 00:12:11.272 improving the health of the system but also the economics. 201 00:12:11.709 --> 00:12:16.592 Have you been able to help farmers here at Val di Bella implement agroforestry, 202 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:17.256 for example, 203 00:12:17.459 --> 00:12:19.881 and demonstrate that it was positive for them? 204 00:12:20.663 --> 00:12:20.819 Yeah, 205 00:12:20.881 --> 00:12:22.483 we are working with Val di Bella. 206 00:12:23.061 --> 00:12:23.264 Here, 207 00:12:23.265 --> 00:12:24.499 in this farm particularly, 208 00:12:24.530 --> 00:12:32.999 is a very nice example because we are implementing this downhill agroforestry system with olive trees and legumes, 209 00:12:33.030 --> 00:12:33.639 for example. 210 00:12:34.811 --> 00:12:36.170 We are working here to 211 00:12:36.350 --> 00:12:39.033 keep the soil as much as covered as possible. 212 00:12:39.994 --> 00:12:45.162 And we have a project of implementing a wide species of trees together, 213 00:12:45.435 --> 00:13:00.951 create a food forest on the upper side of the hill in a way that the water comes in this upper part and then it gets infiltrated in the terrain due to the presence of trees and then to feed the water table of the whole farm. 214 00:13:01.388 --> 00:13:03.060 So in this we are... 215 00:13:03.190 --> 00:13:06.213 applying different farms of Valdibella, 216 00:13:06.553 --> 00:13:08.936 it's not easy to change the mentality, 217 00:13:09.135 --> 00:13:18.042 because particularly it's difficult for some farmers to accept that their lands are being degraded, 218 00:13:18.542 --> 00:13:23.596 or if they change their way of doing it could be possible. 219 00:13:24.049 --> 00:13:25.690 We need to show them some models, 220 00:13:26.034 --> 00:13:27.581 how it works. 221 00:13:28.221 --> 00:13:32.221 And in Valdibella we are applying a large-scale 222 00:13:32.802 --> 00:13:33.863 biodiversity increase, 223 00:13:35.084 --> 00:13:35.205 um, 224 00:13:35.206 --> 00:13:35.805 increasement, 225 00:13:35.846 --> 00:13:35.965 no, 226 00:13:36.545 --> 00:13:45.631 biodiversity enhancement in the farms to create these models to show farmers that it's completely possible, 227 00:13:45.654 --> 00:13:54.600 we have several examples of already ongoing models to improve the presence of trees that could be also productive trees, 228 00:13:54.646 --> 00:13:55.146 of course, 229 00:13:56.646 --> 00:14:01.131 but especially to conserve the soil and avoid erosion and increase organic matter. 230 00:14:01.458 --> 00:14:02.939 So together we are applying, 231 00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:04.701 we have the school of agroecology, 232 00:14:05.203 --> 00:14:19.757 where we bring the farmers there and show them these many examples of how it works and especially try to show them the real costs of the conventional farming of the coast of desertification, 233 00:14:19.929 --> 00:14:26.054 that we are all paying for this land degradation but it's a hidden cost. 234 00:14:26.867 --> 00:14:29.039 Often it's not on the main frame, 235 00:14:29.445 --> 00:14:30.679 We just think about that. 236 00:14:30.882 --> 00:14:34.447 Tons of products that I can pick up from my land, 237 00:14:34.525 --> 00:14:39.849 but we don't think about all the degradation that we are causing in a general level. 238 00:14:40.294 --> 00:14:41.911 Also the subsidies and so on. 239 00:14:41.912 --> 00:14:44.779 There is a very complex economical part. 240 00:14:44.919 --> 00:14:45.255 Of course, 241 00:14:45.396 --> 00:14:45.513 yeah. 242 00:14:46.779 --> 00:14:50.677 Just a quick word about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast, 243 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:51.943 Sol Capital. 244 00:14:52.646 --> 00:15:00.333 Sol Capital is a company that accelerates the transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve things like soil health, 245 00:15:00.642 --> 00:15:01.482 and biodiversity. 246 00:15:02.123 --> 00:15:02.703 They're a really, 247 00:15:02.943 --> 00:15:03.722 really cool company. 248 00:15:03.982 --> 00:15:08.105 I love what they're doing and I'm super proud to be partnering with them for the podcast. 249 00:15:09.585 --> 00:15:26.187 Do you see some kind of tipping point where a lot of farmers are getting to a stage where they cannot ignore anymore the desertification and the degradation of their own land and the loss of productivity and they cannot ignore what some of the neighbors are doing and they come to your trainings and you see more and more of these farmers now having this moment of, 250 00:15:26.953 --> 00:15:27.187 okay, 251 00:15:27.640 --> 00:15:28.328 this makes sense. 252 00:15:28.590 --> 00:15:29.191 I need to change, 253 00:15:29.192 --> 00:15:31.573 I need to go in that direction and I want to join this project. 254 00:15:32.273 --> 00:15:32.413 Yeah, 255 00:15:32.655 --> 00:15:32.855 well, 256 00:15:33.054 --> 00:15:35.558 climate change and desertification, 257 00:15:35.757 --> 00:15:37.620 if you ask for any farmer, 258 00:15:37.659 --> 00:15:38.362 they will say no, 259 00:15:38.456 --> 00:15:40.566 effectively something is different. 260 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:42.644 It's not like that anymore. 261 00:15:43.003 --> 00:15:44.409 It's well recognized, 262 00:15:44.410 --> 00:15:45.472 but not only for farmers. 263 00:15:45.925 --> 00:15:46.691 Sicily has the 264 00:15:47.284 --> 00:15:49.644 Sicilian strategy against desertification. 265 00:15:50.034 --> 00:15:55.097 So it's an institutional recognition that we have a really big problem here. 266 00:15:55.430 --> 00:15:59.193 It's not if you go to make the highway Palermo-Catania, 267 00:15:59.194 --> 00:16:02.176 you see hundreds of thousands of hectares degraded. 268 00:16:02.617 --> 00:16:09.941 Let's try to calculate effectively how much those pieces of land produce in agriculture. 269 00:16:10.004 --> 00:16:11.105 You see that's very low. 270 00:16:11.769 --> 00:16:19.676 And then here we have also a problem with the common agricultural policies that they don't help too much in this way. 271 00:16:19.738 --> 00:16:21.410 They should give the subsidies, 272 00:16:21.473 --> 00:16:21.738 but... 273 00:16:22.938 --> 00:16:25.921 Together we compromise to take care of the land, 274 00:16:26.341 --> 00:16:27.140 avoid erosion. 275 00:16:27.281 --> 00:16:28.382 If you see erosion, 276 00:16:28.464 --> 00:16:30.086 it's the failure of agriculture, 277 00:16:30.527 --> 00:16:32.070 because you cannot produce anymore. 278 00:16:32.406 --> 00:16:36.031 And we have lots of farmers that their productivity is going down, 279 00:16:36.171 --> 00:16:43.539 even if they are pushing hard with fertilizers and trying to keep artificially their production. 280 00:16:44.820 --> 00:16:46.023 The data says clear, 281 00:16:46.367 --> 00:16:48.726 if you want to go to the science, 282 00:16:48.789 --> 00:16:49.398 for example, 283 00:16:49.851 --> 00:16:50.601 the studies 284 00:16:51.142 --> 00:17:01.990 The academic community has no doubt about the degradation that we are going downhill in the productivity of agriculture due to climate change, 285 00:17:02.091 --> 00:17:03.513 due to desertification, 286 00:17:04.154 --> 00:17:06.201 loss of biodiversity and so on. 287 00:17:07.185 --> 00:17:07.326 Yeah. 288 00:17:09.261 --> 00:17:16.048 What's one recent scientific finding that you found super interesting or that gave you hope? 289 00:17:17.868 --> 00:17:18.087 Well, 290 00:17:19.009 --> 00:17:22.095 there are now many studies that comparing, 291 00:17:22.134 --> 00:17:22.657 for example, 292 00:17:23.259 --> 00:17:30.977 organic farming or minimum tillage or regenerative agriculture and trying to, 293 00:17:32.259 --> 00:17:33.446 from the economical point of view, 294 00:17:33.743 --> 00:17:37.384 comparing but again it's very important to do a very good 295 00:17:37.824 --> 00:17:39.886 calculation with the whole system, 296 00:17:40.147 --> 00:17:41.909 also of the hiding costs, 297 00:17:42.069 --> 00:17:44.050 how much does erosion cost for us. 298 00:17:45.093 --> 00:17:47.714 If you have a land that contributes to climate change, 299 00:17:47.831 --> 00:17:49.815 then we have a global issue. 300 00:17:50.518 --> 00:17:54.378 So there are many scientific studies putting together biodiversity, 301 00:17:54.956 --> 00:17:57.706 the more sustainable way of managing a farm, 302 00:17:58.221 --> 00:18:00.190 and in the economical point of view, 303 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:02.862 showing that it's much more valuable, 304 00:18:03.346 --> 00:18:06.159 the products and the ecosystem services. 305 00:18:06.268 --> 00:18:16.076 produced by these farms than in a conventional system where you have all of these high-deng costs of degradation that are not put on the calculations. 306 00:18:16.420 --> 00:18:19.803 Just look at the amount of products that I harvest, 307 00:18:20.225 --> 00:18:24.264 but also talk about the quality of the products or the health of the systems. 308 00:18:25.061 --> 00:18:31.936 There are some reports showing that the rivers and the water reservoirs in Sicily, 309 00:18:31.967 --> 00:18:32.811 but all over the world, 310 00:18:32.857 --> 00:18:34.154 are full of pesticides, 311 00:18:34.248 --> 00:18:34.795 for example. 312 00:18:34.988 --> 00:18:36.470 and then we will drink that water. 313 00:18:36.810 --> 00:18:41.956 How much does it will cost us in terms of healthy from the people also who lives in the city? 314 00:18:43.155 --> 00:18:49.562 So we really need to make a very good mathematical calculation, 315 00:18:49.624 --> 00:18:50.780 including all of this coast, 316 00:18:50.804 --> 00:18:58.749 and there are several studies that are doing that and showing with no doubt that this is the only way we should go, 317 00:18:59.015 --> 00:19:00.140 the agroecological way. 318 00:19:02.004 --> 00:19:10.963 So what you're saying I guess is that we're now getting to the point where there's so much hard data proving that it's better economically. 319 00:19:11.206 --> 00:19:14.065 It's a smarter choice to take care of the environment, 320 00:19:14.143 --> 00:19:14.706 the ecology, 321 00:19:14.846 --> 00:19:22.448 the biodiversity and we should see more banks giving you know loans to farmers who want to farm agroecologically. 322 00:19:22.449 --> 00:19:28.510 We should see more subsidies going towards these farmers and we should see the market kind of shift towards that kind of... 323 00:19:29.348 --> 00:19:45.169 way of doing agriculture because now we're getting the proofs that this is the smarter the smarter economic choice right yeah we should but we know that the financial system and the subsidy system does not work as 324 00:19:45.247 --> 00:19:55.934 it should work in some cases at least thinking about conservation of the soil and biodiversity conservation oh they have other logics by lobbies and so on. 325 00:19:55.935 --> 00:19:57.216 It's a very complicated... 326 00:19:58.561 --> 00:20:05.286 We saw in the past few months that there was a riot of the tractors, 327 00:20:05.368 --> 00:20:08.508 and they removed some strategic pieces, 328 00:20:08.532 --> 00:20:08.954 for example, 329 00:20:08.955 --> 00:20:10.571 against the use of pesticides, 330 00:20:11.016 --> 00:20:13.274 and left aside 4% 331 00:20:13.579 --> 00:20:15.079 of their land for biodiversity, 332 00:20:15.438 --> 00:20:16.813 but they didn't talk about the prices. 333 00:20:17.485 --> 00:20:21.985 So they are still paying very low prices for the farmers, 334 00:20:22.516 --> 00:20:25.751 but trying to compensate this in other ways. 335 00:20:25.860 --> 00:20:27.407 So the farmer is still there. 336 00:20:27.968 --> 00:20:37.697 the weakest point in all of this financial system and instead they need to have the right salary, 337 00:20:38.041 --> 00:20:45.392 the remuneration of their work in a way that they can also afford to organize better their systems, 338 00:20:45.924 --> 00:20:49.283 giving also the recognition to the ecosystem services. 339 00:20:50.205 --> 00:20:53.580 We also need to implement the payment for the ecosystem services. 340 00:20:54.416 --> 00:20:55.877 This is a crucial mechanism. 341 00:20:55.957 --> 00:20:57.756 Everybody wants to have clean water, 342 00:20:58.296 --> 00:20:58.897 clean air, 343 00:20:59.475 --> 00:21:01.858 or if there's hot to go under a tree, 344 00:21:02.721 --> 00:21:14.463 but then we are not willing to pay to help farmers to sustain all of these more complex systems. 345 00:21:15.604 --> 00:21:19.120 But this is also a very important point with the final consumers. 346 00:21:19.635 --> 00:21:20.760 If they change and say, 347 00:21:20.776 --> 00:21:20.901 no, 348 00:21:21.057 --> 00:21:23.542 I will only buy products that follow 349 00:21:24.340 --> 00:21:29.245 a more sustainable way of producing because I want to have a good water also to drink, 350 00:21:29.827 --> 00:21:32.850 then it should be a better system. 351 00:21:32.928 --> 00:21:36.334 And of course the loans and the bank system, 352 00:21:36.412 --> 00:21:37.014 they should, 353 00:21:37.631 --> 00:21:39.733 there are some very small activities, 354 00:21:39.772 --> 00:21:47.866 but compared to how much money is given to the conventional way of doing farming, 355 00:21:48.756 --> 00:21:51.444 respect to the agroecological and the regenerative, 356 00:21:51.459 --> 00:21:51.866 of course, 357 00:21:51.881 --> 00:21:52.287 is very... 358 00:21:52.848 --> 00:21:54.270 Very low amount of farm, 359 00:21:54.370 --> 00:21:55.630 even the cap subsidies, 360 00:21:56.251 --> 00:21:57.071 80% 361 00:21:57.114 --> 00:21:58.853 goes to 20% 362 00:21:58.872 --> 00:21:59.876 of farmers. 363 00:21:59.974 --> 00:22:06.739 So there is an issue in how this system is organized. 364 00:22:07.005 --> 00:22:07.146 Yeah. 365 00:22:08.180 --> 00:22:08.540 The new 366 00:22:08.941 --> 00:22:12.024 CAP budget will be negotiated over the next year, 367 00:22:12.186 --> 00:22:12.405 right? 368 00:22:12.406 --> 00:22:18.272 It's going to be really important in deciding the next cycle of CAP subsidies. 369 00:22:19.670 --> 00:22:23.272 What would be the one policy change that you would like to see above all? 370 00:22:25.178 --> 00:22:25.412 Well, 371 00:22:25.741 --> 00:22:26.959 I think regarding the CAP, 372 00:22:27.053 --> 00:22:31.475 they should incorporate the health of the soil, 373 00:22:31.678 --> 00:22:32.209 for example. 374 00:22:32.287 --> 00:22:32.569 Okay, 375 00:22:32.600 --> 00:22:33.928 I will give you the subsidies, 376 00:22:34.209 --> 00:22:34.772 no problem, 377 00:22:34.803 --> 00:22:35.975 I'm not discussing that. 378 00:22:36.656 --> 00:22:41.055 But you at least must not have to have erosion in your farm, 379 00:22:41.215 --> 00:22:41.797 for example. 380 00:22:42.438 --> 00:22:45.875 I think this should be a relatively small change, 381 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:51.438 but we will at least guarantee that we are not going financing desertification. 382 00:22:51.977 --> 00:22:52.860 Because this is the point. 383 00:22:53.360 --> 00:22:55.016 And there is no doubt about that. 384 00:22:56.266 --> 00:22:58.438 There's an interesting map of the... 385 00:22:59.484 --> 00:23:00.445 a United States 386 00:23:00.946 --> 00:23:04.247 Agricultural Department that shows that the title is clear, 387 00:23:04.407 --> 00:23:06.751 risk of human-induced desertification, 388 00:23:07.091 --> 00:23:08.197 and shows that 40% 389 00:23:09.736 --> 00:23:12.556 of the planet is going towards desertification. 390 00:23:12.681 --> 00:23:13.978 So we need to choose, 391 00:23:14.361 --> 00:23:17.681 we go back to the forest or we go to desertification. 392 00:23:17.822 --> 00:23:20.931 We need to find a way in the middle, 393 00:23:21.322 --> 00:23:27.165 and now the financial system must help you to try to find this way and it's possible. 394 00:23:27.166 --> 00:23:28.368 We have many examples of 395 00:23:29.797 --> 00:23:32.703 Virtual systems that can produce. 396 00:23:33.863 --> 00:23:34.886 We need agriculture, 397 00:23:34.965 --> 00:23:37.593 but without degrading the whole system. 398 00:23:38.554 --> 00:23:38.992 Fantastic. 399 00:23:39.656 --> 00:23:40.375 That's really interesting. 400 00:23:40.515 --> 00:23:40.797 Thank you.