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Our agriculture at the moment is based on an extractive approach.

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If we go on like this,

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we are destroying the ecosystems and the fertility of the soil.

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We have to recognize that farming is not just producing goods.

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Farming is taking care of environments,

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is

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Producing oxygen,

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fresh water,

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mitigating winds,

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mitigating erosion.

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And

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I don't want to be paid anymore for the amount of wheat I put in place.

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If someone has to help the farmers of the future,

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he should try to push them to maximize their photosynthesis,

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to maximize the soil cover,

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to maximize the biodiversity.

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This is what we need.

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Welcome back to the Deep Seed Podcast.

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This week I am visiting an amazing regenerative farmer in Tuscany in Italy called Marco Carbonara.

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His background in ecology gives him a unique perspective on farming.

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He doesn't just see isolated problems and reach for easy solutions.

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He looks at the entire ecosystem,

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at the countless interactions between plants,

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microbes,

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and animals,

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and comes up with holistic,

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systemic solutions to those problems.

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In this conversation,

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Marco makes a lot of strong arguments to demonstrate a few things,

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like the fact that the conventional model is completely failing,

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and that recent studies demonstrate just how much better regenerative agriculture is,

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not just ecologically,

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but economically as well.

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He also makes a strong case for why animals have an essential role to play in regenerative farming systems,

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using very well-described specific examples to demonstrate why.

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Honestly,

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this is a fantastic conversation with a farmer who has mastered the art of working with nature and complexity instead of fighting against it.

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If that's the kind of things you're into,

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I definitely recommend listening to this episode until the end.

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This episode was made in partnership with Soul Capital.

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I am your host Raphael and this is the Deep Seat Podcast.

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Hi Marco!

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Hi!

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How are you doing today?

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Very well,

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very well.

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And yes,

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I'm very excited to share with you something about my life.

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Yes,

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I'm super excited too.

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And I'm super happy to be here in this beautiful place.

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Maybe you could tell us a little bit about where we are today.

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Yes,

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this is Pulicaro Farm.

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Me and my wife Chiara,

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we started this farm

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22 years ago now.

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And we are close to Acqua Pendente,

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between Orvieto and Lake Bolsena,

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so we are in the center of Italy,

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on a volcanic high plateau 600 meters from the sea level.

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This is a very wild area for being in Italy.

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There are very few inhabitants and you have to consider that in the past there were ten times the citizens that now we have here.

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We arrived here trying to see if a lifestyle could become also a job.

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I'm from Rome,

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Chiara is from Milan,

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and we decided we didn't want to live in the city anymore,

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and to try to see if farming was sustainable from every point of view.

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Now we manage more or less 100 hectares,

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and...

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We mostly focus on pasture raised animals.

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We try to build a real agro-ecosystem.

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So we raise a lot of different species.

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We have 25 cows,

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4 donkeys,

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150 between sheep and goats,

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we have 220 pigs,

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and 12,000-15,000 birds per year.

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So chickens,

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some turkeys,

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we have some rabbits.

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So it's really something based on trying to have some income from the farm,

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at the same time letting the animals do their own job working on the farm.

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For fertilizing or for disturbing some pests,

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or keep some balance into the different herbs or bushes and so on.

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It's all about farming with nature.

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Not against nature,

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right?

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Exactly,

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this is the point.

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And there was division from the very beginning,

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when you started 20 years ago?

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For the first

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4-5 years everything was so confused and so difficult because all the mainstream consultants,

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like vets or agronomists,

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they were trying.

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to push us in a very classical direction.

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So if you have a problem with a pest,

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you have to spray an insecticide.

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If you have a problem with a disease,

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you have to treat the animals with medicine.

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And this,

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I think,

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is really at the core of our approach in general,

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also for human medicine and for our society in general.

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We are not used anymore to investigate the deep cause of the problems.

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of the situation.

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The first thing you learn when you study ecology is that there is no,

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there's never a simple answer to a quite complex question.

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And so then,

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step by step,

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step by step,

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we realized that it was all a matter of holistic approach,

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of resilience into the ecosystem,

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of balance in between plants and animals.

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For example,

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at the moment I'm really convinced that farms that are too much specialized could never reach this kind of target.

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If you have just grapes,

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if you have just olives,

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if you have just cows or whatever,

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it's very difficult to...

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to build this ecosystem because at the end mostly we are trying to imitate yeah absolutely the wild ecosystems just for letting you understand i think one of my strongest allies in farming are wolves most part of the farmers complain about wolves constantly because

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they are not used anymore to to deal with them and they just see

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The damage?

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We don't have any damage from wolves.

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We never had because we always had the guardian livestock.

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dogs into the pants where we have the animals.

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So into the electric fence we keep the sheep or the chicken and the dogs,

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the leaves together.

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And this is enough for keeping the wolf away because the wolf is very smart and he just wants to prey a sheep when it's easier than a wild boar or a wild deer.

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But when there is a dog that is big enough and mentally strong enough to face the wolf,

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the wolf doesn't want

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to risk an injured wolf is a dead wolf so they don't want to risk at all and i noticed that since the wolves came back in the arab 15 years ago the wild boars decreased they

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were unbalanced into using they were too much too many and they keep all the populations of the wild deer constantly healthy because if there is any wild deer that can be a little bit sick or weak

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weak is the first one they eat.

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So again,

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this different point of view change completely your life and your farm.

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When you have a problem,

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you have to try first of all to understand exactly how the life cycle of the ex.

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involved are.

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For example,

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we keep a lot of birds,

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especially turkeys if we can during the late summer and beginning of the autumn,

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or chickens all year round into the olive orchards because one of the worst

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pest for the olives is the it's called the mosca del olivo fly of the olives i don't know exactly what it's called in english but it can damage your harvest till the 80 90 so it is something quite serious but

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if you go studying instead of spraying insecticide that are very wide effective so they they kill all the insects and they kill all the animals that feed on these insects

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and poison us also as well but yes if you study precisely how this life cycle of this fly works you discover that they will start laying an egg during the middle summer or late summer on

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the olive and the larva will start eating the olive and if we know if we remember that olive trees doesn't produce olives for us they produce olive

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because they want to propagate their own species,

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obviously.

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So these two beings co-evolved for fighting each other.

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The fly wants to eat the olives,

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and the olive tree wants to produce good seeds.

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The olives turn into a violet color when they are almost ripe.

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This is the moment they change their color for making them more visible for animals and they change their flavor and reduce the bitterness because they want to be eaten from a bird or from a

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wild boar or from a deer or from whoever that will put the seeds far from the mother plant,

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okay?

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So the olive tree doesn't want to waste a single

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Sugar from photosynthesis don't want to lose any energy on an olive,

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on a fruit that will never be perfect.

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So it will never produce a perfect seed,

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you know what I mean?

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So usually the plant realizes that the olive has been attacked by this parasite and he sends down an hormone called ethylene that will cut two layers of cells and will let the olive fall

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on the ground.

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because the plants want to just spend all the energy on the olives that are perfect okay but the larva doesn't care about this because on the ground she will go on eating

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the olive,

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okay?

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And when she grew enough,

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she will go out of the olive,

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try to find a place,

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a spot into the soil,

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a few millimeters down the soil for...

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finish growing and make the...

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I call it...

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The kind of transform,

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yeah,

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into a fly.

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Exactly.

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So she will go out of the soil again,

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a few days later,

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and she will try to...

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climb on a stem of grass and open the wings and restart the cycle.

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But if there are animals,

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wild or animals from the farm,

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that into this process will try to eat the larva into the olive,

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because they don't care if there is a larva inside,

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so the chicken will eat

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and the turkey will eat the olive with the larva inside or we'll try to actively pick some flies because they love flies to eat or they will scratch on the on the ground and they will find the larva into the ground and they will eat or when they come out and they climb on the on

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the on the grass and so on all this

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Animals will keep the number of the pests low.

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Not zero,

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but low.

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We always have damage in terms of loss of values that is in between

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1, 2,

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3,

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5%.

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That doesn't push me.

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No matter how I think about ecosystems,

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that I don't want to use special,

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but it doesn't make sense economically to go buying insecticide for 3%

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of loss.

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You know what I mean?

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And this is exactly what regenerative agriculture is based on.

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It's based on the idea of having in place solutions that are more effective and more economic than

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the average chemicals one.

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Yeah,

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so if I understand what you're telling me is that we have a tendency,

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in today's world,

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of just treating symptoms.

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Whether it's in medicine or in farming,

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it's kind of the same thinking process.

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And we never look at the cause and we never really solve the sort of systemic problem that this...

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Where it comes from.

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Yeah,

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exactly.

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And so,

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yeah,

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that causes more problems and that's kind of an endless cycle of not really solving the initial problems and going in the wrong direction.

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But you're looking at it more from a systemic perspective.

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You're trying to look at the cause.

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The system as a whole,

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you mentioned the world holistic,

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right?

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Exactly.

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And you try to work from there,

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right?

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Exactly.

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I want to make you a very simple example.

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The ancient Greeks were saying that there were two kinds of medicines for the humans.

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The first kind is the medicine for the slaves.

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You have to cure the symptom very quickly because the slave must go back to work.

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The other medicine is the one for the people that are free,

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that are wealthy we now should say.

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that should investigate the deep root of the problem and taking the time for solving the problem at the base,

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okay?

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For having a full,

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happy life.

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So you now tell me which approach we developed in the last 2000 years.

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Right.

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Okay.

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If we try to imitate an ecosystem with different animals and plants from the wilderness and the farm,

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we keep all the issues in balance in a range that will not be maybe zero,

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but will be enough close to zero to not make a real damage.

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And this is the goal of a regenerative farm to do not choosing of not treating with chemicals just because it's your choice,

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okay?

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But to make it

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more convenient this is if we want to change the world if we want to

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Bring more people with us.

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We have to demonstrate that it is also affordable,

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that is convenient,

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let's say,

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okay?

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So I was telling you that we will never treat an olive orchard for a loss of the 2%

254
00:16:14.450 --> 00:16:15.107
of the product.

255
00:16:15.638 --> 00:16:17.013
You have to go to the shop,

256
00:16:17.138 --> 00:16:17.950
buy the products,

257
00:16:18.075 --> 00:16:19.013
go on the tractor,

258
00:16:19.372 --> 00:16:20.154
cover yourself,

259
00:16:20.263 --> 00:16:21.294
spray two mornings,

260
00:16:21.325 --> 00:16:21.872
three mornings,

261
00:16:21.873 --> 00:16:24.138
so this is the goal to do not need it.

262
00:16:26.952 --> 00:16:29.916
And let's make the opposite example.

263
00:16:30.255 --> 00:16:31.597
Imagine an olive orchard,

264
00:16:32.238 --> 00:16:32.859
quite big,

265
00:16:33.097 --> 00:16:35.359
maybe some hectares,

266
00:16:35.460 --> 00:16:36.718
20-30 hectares,

267
00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:37.265
okay?

268
00:16:39.164 --> 00:16:42.890
With the soil that is constantly tilled,

269
00:16:43.171 --> 00:16:43.906
so naked,

270
00:16:45.109 --> 00:16:45.765
no edges,

271
00:16:46.531 --> 00:16:47.515
no different trees,

272
00:16:48.156 --> 00:16:48.390
okay?

273
00:16:48.609 --> 00:16:49.250
Just olives.

274
00:16:50.592 --> 00:16:56.558
that the farmers in general consider that one a clean olive orchard.

275
00:16:56.699 --> 00:16:58.320
When they come to my olive orchard they say,

276
00:16:58.898 --> 00:17:01.844
why don't you clean your olive orchard?

277
00:17:01.845 --> 00:17:05.109
Because in their mind it's dirty,

278
00:17:05.110 --> 00:17:06.390
because of the grass.

279
00:17:06.851 --> 00:17:07.008
Yeah.

280
00:17:07.304 --> 00:17:07.570
Okay?

281
00:17:08.711 --> 00:17:09.351
But again,

282
00:17:09.476 --> 00:17:15.976
if we have this monoculture and we artificially build an environment that is very,

283
00:17:16.101 --> 00:17:16.804
very simple,

284
00:17:17.101 --> 00:17:17.711
olive trees,

285
00:17:20.168 --> 00:17:20.488
Soil,

286
00:17:21.649 --> 00:17:22.171
no edges,

287
00:17:22.231 --> 00:17:23.051
no other trees,

288
00:17:23.251 --> 00:17:25.833
no other animals because there's no refugee for them,

289
00:17:26.012 --> 00:17:26.895
there's no food for them.

290
00:17:28.255 --> 00:17:33.341
My question is who will colonize this artificial environment?

291
00:17:33.661 --> 00:17:37.450
Who is the only one that can come into an olive orchard that is...

292
00:17:38.696 --> 00:17:39.558
managed that way.

293
00:17:41.019 --> 00:17:44.646
Just the ones that eat olives because they have nothing else to eat.

294
00:17:45.326 --> 00:17:51.920
So just very specialized forms of life that can take advantage from a monoculture of olives.

295
00:17:52.818 --> 00:17:53.803
It's quite simple,

296
00:17:54.123 --> 00:17:54.623
you know?

297
00:17:56.844 --> 00:18:07.627
But the idea at the base is that machines and chemicals are more effective than ecosystems.

298
00:18:08.104 --> 00:18:09.206
And this is simply a lie.

299
00:18:09.948 --> 00:18:12.190
Because ecosystems are very effective,

300
00:18:13.042 --> 00:18:14.807
are very efficient.

301
00:18:17.912 --> 00:18:21.255
but some would argue that by using machinery,

302
00:18:22.095 --> 00:18:23.798
by using technology,

303
00:18:24.017 --> 00:18:24.700
using chemicals,

304
00:18:24.778 --> 00:18:28.763
they can work on huge amounts of hectares at once,

305
00:18:29.044 --> 00:18:32.950
minimize costs of labor and so on and therefore make,

306
00:18:33.106 --> 00:18:33.685
produce more,

307
00:18:33.966 --> 00:18:35.606
feed more people and make more profits.

308
00:18:35.825 --> 00:18:36.091
Okay,

309
00:18:37.013 --> 00:18:38.966
let's go a little bit deeper in this.

310
00:18:39.841 --> 00:18:41.575
We have to recognize

311
00:18:42.588 --> 00:18:45.569
Something very important is at the base of this idea.

312
00:18:46.811 --> 00:18:52.733
Our agriculture at the moment is based on an extractive approach.

313
00:18:54.530 --> 00:19:02.834
An extractive approach that is exactly the same approach you have for extracting oil or copper or sulfur from the ground.

314
00:19:03.537 --> 00:19:08.334
Our economic approach is based on an idea that is 200 years old,

315
00:19:08.740 --> 00:19:11.553
that the world is enough big and we are

316
00:19:12.376 --> 00:19:19.678
so few and so little that we can extract forever how much we want.

317
00:19:20.236 --> 00:19:21.600
We now know that it's not like this.

318
00:19:21.881 --> 00:19:26.639
This is an idea that comes from 200 years ago when people were much less.

319
00:19:27.100 --> 00:19:30.912
And so we have to start from a consideration.

320
00:19:32.022 --> 00:19:34.287
We want to go on extracting.

321
00:19:36.072 --> 00:19:39.875
Or we realize that if we go on like this,

322
00:19:40.518 --> 00:19:44.698
we are destroying the ecosystems and the fertility of the soil.

323
00:19:45.502 --> 00:19:48.385
So this is something we have to decide.

324
00:19:48.386 --> 00:19:58.166
Because if you are asking me if it's more convenient to go on putting a lot of fertilizers on a soil,

325
00:19:58.167 --> 00:19:58.995
a lot of water,

326
00:19:59.963 --> 00:20:01.151
a lot of gasoline,

327
00:20:01.416 --> 00:20:04.979
because you can produce like this maybe six tons.

328
00:20:06.484 --> 00:20:11.043
wheat per hectare and I can produce 25,

329
00:20:11.387 --> 00:20:11.704
30.

330
00:20:12.864 --> 00:20:13.125
Okay,

331
00:20:13.707 --> 00:20:15.387
so in terms of tons,

332
00:20:15.543 --> 00:20:17.364
if we want to go on extracting,

333
00:20:17.489 --> 00:20:17.848
obviously,

334
00:20:18.606 --> 00:20:20.450
this kind of agriculture is more effective.

335
00:20:21.543 --> 00:20:21.903
But,

336
00:20:22.825 --> 00:20:25.106
and we started a study with Veara,

337
00:20:25.956 --> 00:20:28.399
If we already start looking at the economics,

338
00:20:28.518 --> 00:20:29.379
it's already different.

339
00:20:30.260 --> 00:20:32.842
Because that kind of agriculture is very,

340
00:20:32.963 --> 00:20:33.264
very,

341
00:20:33.342 --> 00:20:34.584
very expensive.

342
00:20:34.725 --> 00:20:38.951
You need a lot of things from outside of the farm.

343
00:20:39.209 --> 00:20:40.193
You need fertiliser,

344
00:20:40.194 --> 00:20:40.928
you need gasoline,

345
00:20:41.451 --> 00:20:42.334
you need a lot of this.

346
00:20:44.808 --> 00:20:46.950
If you cut out the cap,

347
00:20:47.991 --> 00:20:52.016
most part of this farm will disappear in six months.

348
00:20:52.938 --> 00:20:54.782
Because they cannot afford to go on like this.

349
00:20:55.016 --> 00:20:58.626
Because this kind of farming produces more tons.

350
00:20:59.704 --> 00:20:59.883
And,

351
00:21:00.407 --> 00:21:00.907
by the way,

352
00:21:01.360 --> 00:21:03.547
with much less nutrient density.

353
00:21:04.329 --> 00:21:05.907
This is another thing we have to consider.

354
00:21:06.735 --> 00:21:12.079
But it produces more tons because it has a lot of inputs and extracts a lot from the soil.

355
00:21:13.110 --> 00:21:13.360
Okay.

356
00:21:13.469 --> 00:21:14.094
Yeah.

357
00:21:15.281 --> 00:21:20.987
But this is artificially keeping alive this system through the cap.

358
00:21:21.366 --> 00:21:21.487
Yeah.

359
00:21:22.065 --> 00:21:22.307
Okay.

360
00:21:24.076 --> 00:21:25.056
In a farm like mine,

361
00:21:25.136 --> 00:21:26.217
cap is nothing.

362
00:21:27.618 --> 00:21:28.018
It's nothing.

363
00:21:28.096 --> 00:21:30.217
It's a very small amount.

364
00:21:30.397 --> 00:21:33.178
And if they remove the cap tomorrow,

365
00:21:33.202 --> 00:21:33.319
OK,

366
00:21:33.538 --> 00:21:35.741
I will lose something like 4,000,

367
00:21:35.742 --> 00:21:36.717
5,000 euro per year.

368
00:21:36.780 --> 00:21:41.592
But it's not something that keeps my farm alive.

369
00:21:41.717 --> 00:21:42.264
You know what I mean?

370
00:21:42.373 --> 00:21:42.514
Yeah.

371
00:21:42.858 --> 00:21:42.983
OK.

372
00:21:43.483 --> 00:21:45.545
Most part of the arable farms,

373
00:21:45.561 --> 00:21:47.405
if you take out the cap,

374
00:21:47.498 --> 00:21:48.858
they will seriously struggle.

375
00:21:49.327 --> 00:21:49.905
And I'm not happy,

376
00:21:49.967 --> 00:21:50.202
obviously,

377
00:21:50.248 --> 00:21:50.608
about this,

378
00:21:50.639 --> 00:21:51.639
but it's a fact.

379
00:21:51.983 --> 00:21:52.108
OK.

380
00:21:52.600 --> 00:21:52.820
Okay,

381
00:21:53.021 --> 00:21:53.761
so in effect,

382
00:21:53.881 --> 00:21:58.347
I mean we are in an extractive society today.

383
00:21:58.585 --> 00:21:59.066
Exactly.

384
00:21:59.187 --> 00:22:01.449
And the farming system is no different.

385
00:22:01.746 --> 00:22:04.996
It relies on the use of finite resources,

386
00:22:05.652 --> 00:22:06.175
fossil fuel,

387
00:22:06.753 --> 00:22:07.214
compost,

388
00:22:07.253 --> 00:22:07.675
seeds,

389
00:22:07.777 --> 00:22:09.402
but also soil fertility,

390
00:22:09.511 --> 00:22:10.261
microbiology.

391
00:22:10.417 --> 00:22:10.777
Exactly.

392
00:22:11.183 --> 00:22:20.089
We are extracting resources from our farm and from the outside world for producing more quantity.

393
00:22:20.230 --> 00:22:20.824
More quantity,

394
00:22:20.902 --> 00:22:21.371
normal quantity.

395
00:22:21.384 --> 00:22:38.551
quality and not more density but more quantity yeah okay but why now regenerative agriculture is much more interesting for a lot of people we as they are we have been counted from a lot of big farms that are interesting to understand what's going on really because

396
00:22:38.661 --> 00:22:49.067
they are producing much less than in the past the average of an industrial farm in italy about wheat have been

397
00:22:49.564 --> 00:22:51.584
cut it in half in the last 20 years.

398
00:22:51.984 --> 00:22:55.746
So they were used to produce maybe six,

399
00:22:56.305 --> 00:22:59.129
eight tons per hectare of hard wheat,

400
00:22:59.168 --> 00:22:59.504
I don't know,

401
00:22:59.606 --> 00:22:59.902
okay?

402
00:23:00.449 --> 00:23:03.066
And now they are producing 28,

403
00:23:03.566 --> 00:23:04.785
35,

404
00:23:04.786 --> 00:23:06.551
42.

405
00:23:06.552 --> 00:23:10.176
So if you put these numbers close to the 25,

406
00:23:10.207 --> 00:23:10.801
27,

407
00:23:10.910 --> 00:23:12.848
30 of the Jaisalmer agriculture,

408
00:23:14.223 --> 00:23:16.004
and on the side you have much less inputs,

409
00:23:16.191 --> 00:23:17.613
on the other you have a lot of inputs,

410
00:23:18.820 --> 00:23:21.763
The comparison is now much more interesting than

411
00:23:22.503 --> 00:23:23.146
20 years ago.

412
00:23:24.087 --> 00:23:24.767
You know what I mean?

413
00:23:25.107 --> 00:23:25.228
Yeah,

414
00:23:25.325 --> 00:23:25.447
so...

415
00:23:25.587 --> 00:23:26.970
They decreased their production.

416
00:23:27.712 --> 00:23:30.493
We are seeing that after several years,

417
00:23:30.509 --> 00:23:31.392
and this is the point,

418
00:23:31.931 --> 00:23:32.876
after several years,

419
00:23:33.431 --> 00:23:34.712
we can be quite stable.

420
00:23:35.236 --> 00:23:37.032
Regenerative agriculture is much more stable.

421
00:23:37.673 --> 00:23:42.095
There is no year that you produce 50 and the year you produce 10.

422
00:23:42.376 --> 00:23:44.798
It's always quite average.

423
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:45.782
It's much more stable.

424
00:23:46.580 --> 00:23:50.641
Cause seems to be the only thing that can really face,

425
00:23:50.660 --> 00:23:51.082
for example,

426
00:23:51.141 --> 00:23:51.762
climate change.

427
00:23:53.281 --> 00:24:02.102
When you have massive rain on a farm that have permanent cover,

428
00:24:03.281 --> 00:24:05.703
that have animal that graze properly,

429
00:24:06.969 --> 00:24:09.625
water even doesn't make a damage.

430
00:24:10.528 --> 00:24:10.768
Okay,

431
00:24:11.189 --> 00:24:12.150
depends on the area,

432
00:24:12.210 --> 00:24:13.632
depends on the amount of rain,

433
00:24:13.671 --> 00:24:13.851
okay,

434
00:24:13.871 --> 00:24:15.214
but it's much,

435
00:24:15.312 --> 00:24:15.511
much,

436
00:24:15.574 --> 00:24:15.734
much,

437
00:24:15.753 --> 00:24:16.253
much less.

438
00:24:17.156 --> 00:24:19.316
And you can see from your neighbors.

439
00:24:20.675 --> 00:24:20.839
If

440
00:24:22.456 --> 00:24:23.605
I have a friend in Sutri,

441
00:24:24.285 --> 00:24:25.386
the Fattoria Faraoni,

442
00:24:25.425 --> 00:24:28.027
that deep practice regenerative agriculture with cows,

443
00:24:28.028 --> 00:24:29.746
he's very good in this,

444
00:24:30.746 --> 00:24:34.199
and you have neighbors that have intensive hazelnut cultivation.

445
00:24:34.574 --> 00:24:35.355
When it rains,

446
00:24:35.449 --> 00:24:37.121
he doesn't have any kind of damage.

447
00:24:38.316 --> 00:24:40.178
into the hazelnut orchards,

448
00:24:40.457 --> 00:24:42.821
all the soil comes down to the river,

449
00:24:42.961 --> 00:24:44.801
comes down to the road,

450
00:24:44.844 --> 00:24:46.785
they have to go with a jack store to remove.

451
00:24:47.926 --> 00:24:50.707
So we are completely on a different page.

452
00:24:50.965 --> 00:24:51.653
Yeah.

453
00:24:51.654 --> 00:24:53.231
Are we arriving at this turning point,

454
00:24:53.332 --> 00:24:53.848
you feel like?

455
00:24:53.871 --> 00:24:55.410
Because from what you're describing,

456
00:24:55.910 --> 00:24:59.239
what we call conventional agriculture is really reaching its limits.

457
00:24:59.801 --> 00:25:00.692
The yields are dropping,

458
00:25:01.114 --> 00:25:02.473
costs are increasing,

459
00:25:02.895 --> 00:25:07.160
the damages by climate change are going to keep being more and more of a problem.

460
00:25:07.788 --> 00:25:12.351
And next to that you have regenerative farmers who have healthy balanced ecosystems,

461
00:25:12.433 --> 00:25:20.382
have a much more balanced sort of production and much more resilience to these extremes and much less dependence on external inputs.

462
00:25:20.383 --> 00:25:22.445
It is not something that is not important.

463
00:25:22.765 --> 00:25:23.000
Right.

464
00:25:23.406 --> 00:25:30.554
So the question I guess is do you feel like we're getting to this turning point where now regenerative farming now becomes just the best way to farm,

465
00:25:31.539 --> 00:25:31.835
period?

466
00:25:33.210 --> 00:25:33.492
For me,

467
00:25:33.570 --> 00:25:33.898
yes.

468
00:25:34.242 --> 00:25:34.851
Period that is,

469
00:25:35.070 --> 00:25:36.398
it is already like this.

470
00:25:36.840 --> 00:25:38.662
It's at least 10 years it is like this.

471
00:25:39.303 --> 00:25:40.986
But there's a big but.

472
00:25:42.666 --> 00:25:44.287
We live in a society that,

473
00:25:44.467 --> 00:25:45.627
economically speaking,

474
00:25:46.189 --> 00:25:50.596
tells us that a good business plan is five years.

475
00:25:51.752 --> 00:25:53.424
We are in the era of the startups.

476
00:25:54.330 --> 00:25:55.002
In five years,

477
00:25:55.003 --> 00:25:56.783
we have to get a brilliant idea,

478
00:25:57.158 --> 00:25:57.721
develop it,

479
00:25:58.018 --> 00:25:58.502
and sell it.

480
00:26:00.502 --> 00:26:01.080
There is a problem.

481
00:26:01.721 --> 00:26:02.830
Nature doesn't work like this.

482
00:26:02.846 --> 00:26:03.893
Period.

483
00:26:04.174 --> 00:26:04.471
Period.

484
00:26:05.408 --> 00:26:05.674
Okay?

485
00:26:06.540 --> 00:26:09.365
So the problem it is the transition time.

486
00:26:11.810 --> 00:26:14.212
Average speaking again because it depends from your farm,

487
00:26:14.255 --> 00:26:14.978
from your area,

488
00:26:15.017 --> 00:26:16.041
how much it rains,

489
00:26:16.681 --> 00:26:19.361
how much poor is your soil or not.

490
00:26:19.423 --> 00:26:19.580
Okay,

491
00:26:19.627 --> 00:26:23.416
but every speaking you have four years at the beginning of transition that you...

492
00:26:23.488 --> 00:26:26.332
You wanna get mad.

493
00:26:26.333 --> 00:26:33.496
You get mad because everything is exploding because you don't spray anymore insecticides,

494
00:26:33.957 --> 00:26:35.879
the population of the pests are exploding,

495
00:26:36.785 --> 00:26:41.660
the soil is naked and so you have erosion without having fertility.

496
00:26:42.410 --> 00:26:43.160
So it's a mess.

497
00:26:43.551 --> 00:26:44.347
At the very beginning,

498
00:26:44.348 --> 00:26:45.144
the first three,

499
00:26:45.207 --> 00:26:46.504
four years are really difficult.

500
00:26:47.097 --> 00:26:47.769
Also economically.

501
00:26:49.535 --> 00:26:52.254
And there is no another field in general where

502
00:26:53.816 --> 00:26:54.958
You can tell to a company,

503
00:26:54.997 --> 00:26:55.237
okay,

504
00:26:55.317 --> 00:26:58.180
now for four years you will lose money.

505
00:26:59.423 --> 00:26:59.723
I mean,

506
00:27:00.481 --> 00:27:00.743
okay.

507
00:27:01.782 --> 00:27:02.141
Usually,

508
00:27:03.649 --> 00:27:05.087
after other four years,

509
00:27:05.088 --> 00:27:06.266
so in eight years,

510
00:27:06.485 --> 00:27:07.251
heavily speaking,

511
00:27:08.313 --> 00:27:13.368
you are starting to see the sun at the end of the tunnel again.

512
00:27:14.040 --> 00:27:14.149
So,

513
00:27:15.883 --> 00:27:18.946
you can really touch it that things are getting in balance,

514
00:27:19.227 --> 00:27:23.040
your productivity is increasing with a nice curve.

515
00:27:23.612 --> 00:27:32.937
your expenses are reducing and your resilience is increasing very well a lot usually around

516
00:27:33.617 --> 00:27:50.398
12 and 16 years you get better result economically productively so the point is the but is how we can help or how we can accept

517
00:27:51.676 --> 00:27:59.718
To pay this for eight years of mostly problems.

518
00:28:01.155 --> 00:28:01.741
Yeah,

519
00:28:01.757 --> 00:28:02.780
financing the transition.

520
00:28:02.999 --> 00:28:03.319
Yes,

521
00:28:03.460 --> 00:28:05.280
that seems something unbelievable,

522
00:28:05.343 --> 00:28:05.663
okay?

523
00:28:06.139 --> 00:28:07.538
But to me,

524
00:28:09.022 --> 00:28:14.725
it's a very small problem compared on what we will face if we don't do it.

525
00:28:15.804 --> 00:28:17.663
On what we are facing,

526
00:28:18.647 --> 00:28:19.429
not doing this.

527
00:28:19.710 --> 00:28:19.819
Yeah.

528
00:28:20.335 --> 00:28:20.882
You know what I mean?

529
00:28:21.560 --> 00:28:22.881
Even for a single farmer,

530
00:28:23.442 --> 00:28:26.245
I know farmers that don't know anymore what to do,

531
00:28:26.346 --> 00:28:27.045
what to think.

532
00:28:27.948 --> 00:28:29.948
Because they have big,

533
00:28:30.049 --> 00:28:30.253
big,

534
00:28:30.346 --> 00:28:32.854
big loans with the banks for huge machinery.

535
00:28:33.573 --> 00:28:37.456
They have big loans for the fertilizer and the gas in every area.

536
00:28:37.753 --> 00:28:39.503
The fields are not producing anymore.

537
00:28:41.584 --> 00:28:45.547
So it is a real problem also for the banks and for the insurance.

538
00:28:46.469 --> 00:28:50.590
I think it's more brilliant and more smart to get on the table and say,

539
00:28:50.691 --> 00:28:51.035
okay,

540
00:28:51.934 --> 00:28:52.535
who has a plan?

541
00:28:53.715 --> 00:28:54.738
Does this plan work?

542
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:58.504
How we can find a solution for saving also our money?

543
00:28:58.941 --> 00:28:59.988
Because more part of the...

544
00:29:01.264 --> 00:29:07.391
There are billions of loans that no one will pay anymore because they can't simply.

545
00:29:07.789 --> 00:29:14.153
And I don't know if a bank is so interested in having acres and acres of land from farmers that they know how to cultivate,

546
00:29:14.154 --> 00:29:14.676
you know what I mean?

547
00:29:16.121 --> 00:29:17.098
Doing this podcast,

548
00:29:17.325 --> 00:29:23.450
releasing new episodes every week and bringing to you stories of regenerative pioneers and experts,

549
00:29:23.903 --> 00:29:24.090
well,

550
00:29:24.371 --> 00:29:29.887
it takes a lot of work and a lot of time and I could not do it without the support of Soil Capital.

551
00:29:30.732 --> 00:29:42.365
Soil Capital is a company that helps accelerating the transition to regenerative agriculture that we so desperately need by financially rewarding farmers who improve things like soil health and biodiversity.

552
00:29:43.405 --> 00:29:44.709
They are an amazing company.

553
00:29:44.787 --> 00:29:50.092
I'm genuinely a big fan of their work and I'm very proud to be partnering with them for the Deep Seed podcast.

554
00:29:52.139 --> 00:29:54.233
I try to be very realistic,

555
00:29:54.748 --> 00:29:55.014
okay?

556
00:29:55.436 --> 00:29:59.467
I don't think anyone is changing their mind because they decided it is.

557
00:30:00.728 --> 00:30:01.228
more fair.

558
00:30:01.229 --> 00:30:03.389
I'm just saying they're afraid.

559
00:30:04.588 --> 00:30:05.491
Afraid to lose money,

560
00:30:06.409 --> 00:30:09.131
afraid to do not have enough goods to sell.

561
00:30:10.788 --> 00:30:24.014
Big companies contact groups of regenerative agriculture farmers because they simply are realizing that their own producers cannot produce enough.

562
00:30:25.217 --> 00:30:28.077
They are producing every year less.

563
00:30:29.476 --> 00:30:29.836
I think,

564
00:30:29.856 --> 00:30:35.220
I want to hope that we are smart enough to sit at the table and start saying,

565
00:30:35.243 --> 00:30:36.364
okay this is the problem,

566
00:30:36.782 --> 00:30:37.563
do we have a plan?

567
00:30:37.907 --> 00:30:42.392
Do we have numbers to support at least pilot programs on this plan?

568
00:30:44.329 --> 00:30:44.751
Let's try.

569
00:30:45.438 --> 00:30:46.173
Before it's too late.

570
00:30:47.688 --> 00:30:50.079
Do you see that happening in the short-term future?

571
00:30:50.142 --> 00:30:52.782
I've seen things that were unbelievable.

572
00:30:53.520 --> 00:31:15.940
10 years ago so yes i think the the smartest one are starting moving about this yes okay nice this is what i see from my yeah that's really interesting really interesting i want to come back to to farming and to your farm in particular you gave us this amazing example with the the olive trees and i was wondering if you had other examples

573
00:31:16.018 --> 00:31:23.143
and all the stories you can tell us about your system and how you manage it in this holistic way yes for sure you know

574
00:31:23.632 --> 00:31:38.310
Different species are different because they use different niches into the ecosystem and using a different niche into the ecosystem means using different resources so eating different stuff.

575
00:31:40.443 --> 00:31:41.364
For example,

576
00:31:41.974 --> 00:31:53.068
pasture or grasslands you have mostly two options or you have one species and through the mob grazing that is already a very good solution you try to

577
00:31:53.164 --> 00:31:56.327
push the animals to eat the 80-90%

578
00:31:56.328 --> 00:32:12.843
of the herbs that are on your field or you have to correct artificially because if the sheep doesn't like the thistle for example after one year two years three years four years which

579
00:32:13.311 --> 00:32:22.249
are the only plants that will completely develop and produce seeds the one that the sheep doesn't like so the thistle so if you were speaking with the farmers they say oh Oh no,

580
00:32:22.250 --> 00:32:22.655
a ship.

581
00:32:23.277 --> 00:32:29.123
should not stay on the field where you want to cultivate cereals because they will fill the field with thistles.

582
00:32:29.584 --> 00:32:32.162
Like if they can produce thistles,

583
00:32:32.209 --> 00:32:32.483
okay?

584
00:32:34.006 --> 00:32:35.147
But if you have,

585
00:32:35.647 --> 00:32:35.912
we have,

586
00:32:35.928 --> 00:32:36.569
for example,

587
00:32:37.069 --> 00:32:43.022
the first group of animals that go on pasture are cow and some goats.

588
00:32:43.850 --> 00:32:44.475
And for example,

589
00:32:44.490 --> 00:32:45.334
economically speaking,

590
00:32:45.412 --> 00:32:45.944
these goats,

591
00:32:45.945 --> 00:32:47.287
we have 25 cows and

592
00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:50.037
12 goats usually in the same group,

593
00:32:50.100 --> 00:32:50.319
okay?

594
00:32:50.740 --> 00:32:51.959
these 12 goats are

595
00:32:52.316 --> 00:32:56.039
Mostly doesn't cost to me.

596
00:32:56.842 --> 00:32:57.080
Okay.

597
00:32:57.701 --> 00:32:59.041
I'm not referring to my work,

598
00:32:59.604 --> 00:33:00.283
the property,

599
00:33:00.823 --> 00:33:01.463
the fences,

600
00:33:01.526 --> 00:33:05.369
but they don't eat the grass that the cow eat.

601
00:33:06.049 --> 00:33:07.229
So if I can keep,

602
00:33:07.869 --> 00:33:08.252
I don't know,

603
00:33:09.768 --> 00:33:12.408
25 cows into my farm on that

604
00:33:13.565 --> 00:33:14.752
20 hectares.

605
00:33:15.096 --> 00:33:15.377
Okay.

606
00:33:16.205 --> 00:33:16.799
If I add

607
00:33:17.862 --> 00:33:18.502
12 goats,

608
00:33:18.908 --> 00:33:20.127
I can still keep...

609
00:33:20.828 --> 00:33:21.989
25 cows.

610
00:33:22.670 --> 00:33:25.174
And in a few years I can add the cow.

611
00:33:25.175 --> 00:33:31.479
Because they eat different plants and they keep the grassland balanced.

612
00:33:32.502 --> 00:33:37.018
So do not allow the plants that the cow doesn't like to develop too much.

613
00:33:38.080 --> 00:33:40.268
After the cow and the goats,

614
00:33:41.049 --> 00:33:42.924
immediately we let enter,

615
00:33:43.596 --> 00:33:45.299
because we have this rotational system,

616
00:33:45.346 --> 00:33:46.580
so we move in different plants,

617
00:33:46.612 --> 00:33:47.940
we let enter the donkeys.

618
00:33:47.941 --> 00:33:49.955
Because there are some

619
00:33:51.068 --> 00:34:06.781
thistles and thorns that no one want to eat but the donkey and they enjoy and they're healthy and chubby okay we don't eat donkeys at the moment we use them for for farming for for other works okay but anyway is uh

620
00:34:06.782 --> 00:34:19.758
is another animal that can live on the same field where my cow get the 90 of the food you know what i mean okay after them we try to move them the birds

621
00:34:20.552 --> 00:34:23.655
Because when the birds enter a pasture,

622
00:34:24.336 --> 00:34:28.637
usually around four to seven days after the cow moved,

623
00:34:30.098 --> 00:34:33.785
they find a lot of bugs in the manure of the cow.

624
00:34:34.629 --> 00:34:35.567
And on one side,

625
00:34:36.090 --> 00:34:39.778
they keep the pasture free from parasites.

626
00:34:40.825 --> 00:34:41.356
On the other,

627
00:34:41.418 --> 00:34:42.668
they get free protein.

628
00:34:43.715 --> 00:34:49.403
And immediately they start increasing the number of eggs they lay by 25-30%.

629
00:34:50.348 --> 00:34:51.829
And they eat 30%

630
00:34:51.850 --> 00:34:54.353
less the grains that I should feed them.

631
00:34:55.353 --> 00:35:01.356
So the cow is feeding the bird that will make,

632
00:35:01.778 --> 00:35:03.200
produce eggs for me.

633
00:35:03.778 --> 00:35:05.122
This is a different point of view.

634
00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:05.903
We also,

635
00:35:05.927 --> 00:35:09.130
the cap is now designed for,

636
00:35:10.349 --> 00:35:10.630
okay,

637
00:35:10.755 --> 00:35:11.489
you have these

638
00:35:11.896 --> 00:35:12.833
10 hectares.

639
00:35:13.333 --> 00:35:16.099
Tell me what you do on that 10 hectares.

640
00:35:18.092 --> 00:35:20.493
Alfalfa or clover or wheat,

641
00:35:21.093 --> 00:35:21.352
okay,

642
00:35:21.733 --> 00:35:21.913
dot.

643
00:35:22.874 --> 00:35:22.995
No,

644
00:35:23.632 --> 00:35:25.893
I produce hay,

645
00:35:26.577 --> 00:35:31.694
but at the same time I have some olives and I use animals for pestle,

646
00:35:31.695 --> 00:35:36.889
so I produce milk and meat and eggs because the birds come after.

647
00:35:37.530 --> 00:35:37.843
Again,

648
00:35:37.889 --> 00:35:42.499
it's a completely different point of view and it has some of the problems.

649
00:35:43.593 --> 00:35:43.952
cause

650
00:35:44.448 --> 00:35:53.718
If you now read newspaper or you speak with vets authority they will tell you that never ever have birds,

651
00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:57.765
chickens close to cows or sheep.

652
00:35:57.983 --> 00:36:04.444
Because there is the risk of the avian flu that spill over.

653
00:36:05.569 --> 00:36:09.772
The virus can potentially skip from the birds to...

654
00:36:11.526 --> 00:36:12.087
to a mammal.

655
00:36:12.268 --> 00:36:17.257
That is what we want to avoid because it is a potential risk for us as humans.

656
00:36:18.757 --> 00:36:19.242
But again,

657
00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:21.343
we have to dig a little bit deeper.

658
00:36:23.964 --> 00:36:29.490
Real risk at the moment is into the factories where the density of the birds is unbelievable.

659
00:36:30.732 --> 00:36:39.056
It's not outside because the wild birds can potentially contaminate the soil and potentially contaminate the birds and so on,

660
00:36:39.057 --> 00:36:41.322
because the density here is too low.

661
00:36:42.369 --> 00:36:46.228
Alien flu is a very strong virus for birds,

662
00:36:46.806 --> 00:36:47.447
so after

663
00:36:48.088 --> 00:36:51.353
24 hours they or they die or they...

664
00:36:53.104 --> 00:36:55.085
isolate themselves.

665
00:36:55.086 --> 00:36:56.444
Imagine about you when you are sick.

666
00:36:56.946 --> 00:37:11.973
You stay in your room and in the bed you want to stay by yourself you don't wanna you want to avoid light and so on and so if eventually my one of my chickens gets sick he doesn't have the chance to spread

667
00:37:12.036 --> 00:37:15.176
the virus to everyone else because he will isolate himself.

668
00:37:16.833 --> 00:37:21.583
My birds have usually at least 30-40 square meters each one.

669
00:37:22.564 --> 00:37:27.304
instead of having 20 birds on one square meter into a factory.

670
00:37:28.323 --> 00:37:32.144
So what we need as regenerative farmers,

671
00:37:32.145 --> 00:37:35.487
because regenerative agriculture mostly,

672
00:37:35.784 --> 00:37:37.050
especially in the Mediterranean climate,

673
00:37:37.051 --> 00:37:37.691
but in general,

674
00:37:38.245 --> 00:37:39.355
needs animals.

675
00:37:40.730 --> 00:37:41.683
This is my personal opinion.

676
00:37:41.714 --> 00:37:44.542
You can produce compost,

677
00:37:44.589 --> 00:37:45.933
you can produce a lot of,

678
00:37:47.292 --> 00:37:47.542
let's say,

679
00:37:47.777 --> 00:37:51.386
not livestock solutions for fertility.

680
00:37:52.764 --> 00:38:17.501
but honestly it's very expensive and the amount the tons of stuff you can produce is very little it's very interesting when you have to activate something like a yeast you know so if you produce a compost pile because you want to activate this compost pile you want to inoculate the soil yes this is very interesting but if you have to add organic matter seriously especially

681
00:38:17.502 --> 00:38:22.110
in mediterranean climate where we have a dry summer and a cold winter where bacteria's

682
00:38:22.884 --> 00:38:23.445
doesn't live,

683
00:38:23.485 --> 00:38:26.167
doesn't survive so much in these two extremes,

684
00:38:27.128 --> 00:38:28.651
up to 24 degrees.

685
00:38:29.850 --> 00:38:32.893
The activity is much less of the bacteria.

686
00:38:34.237 --> 00:38:35.159
You need the animals,

687
00:38:35.300 --> 00:38:36.534
especially you need the herbivores,

688
00:38:36.535 --> 00:38:37.378
the large herbivores.

689
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:38.479
You need the sheep,

690
00:38:38.557 --> 00:38:39.503
the cow,

691
00:38:39.534 --> 00:38:39.987
the goats,

692
00:38:40.018 --> 00:38:42.565
because you need their stomach,

693
00:38:42.831 --> 00:38:43.581
you need their rumen.

694
00:38:43.597 --> 00:38:44.847
I'll try to explain this.

695
00:38:45.862 --> 00:38:49.550
Microbiota is what keeps the soil fertile,

696
00:38:50.034 --> 00:38:50.378
living,

697
00:38:51.050 --> 00:38:51.628
dynamic,

698
00:38:51.956 --> 00:38:52.331
moving.

699
00:38:53.141 --> 00:38:54.963
moving nutrients,

700
00:38:55.043 --> 00:38:59.666
moving gases and water,

701
00:38:59.787 --> 00:39:00.006
okay,

702
00:39:00.467 --> 00:39:01.791
vertically and horizontally.

703
00:39:02.111 --> 00:39:07.713
A dead soil can be fertilized theoretically in terms of nitrogen,

704
00:39:07.752 --> 00:39:08.783
but it is dead.

705
00:39:09.080 --> 00:39:10.392
It doesn't work,

706
00:39:10.814 --> 00:39:11.033
okay.

707
00:39:13.064 --> 00:39:15.439
For having a healthy microbiota,

708
00:39:16.096 --> 00:39:21.408
you have to keep alive the two big containers of this microbiota.

709
00:39:21.502 --> 00:39:22.314
One is the soil.

710
00:39:23.148 --> 00:39:23.908
And the other one,

711
00:39:23.948 --> 00:39:25.229
especially in certain seasons,

712
00:39:25.908 --> 00:39:29.688
are the stomach of the large herbivores.

713
00:39:30.270 --> 00:39:35.430
That will keep the population alive and will inoculate again into the soil.

714
00:39:36.813 --> 00:39:38.555
I know that maybe it looks a little bit complicated,

715
00:39:38.571 --> 00:39:45.289
but it is much more easy to understand if you can see it.

716
00:39:45.680 --> 00:39:45.789
Yeah.

717
00:39:47.836 --> 00:39:49.039
It's incredible the effect that...

718
00:39:49.676 --> 00:40:05.050
the manure does on the on the grasslands is is amazing is uh you can really see from a spring to an autumn in six months is uh that's something that every farmer i have met who works with animals in a holistic way is

719
00:40:05.128 --> 00:40:15.198
absolutely convinced about so that i guess it's something you can see you can you can see you can touch it like people debate about things like that in in classrooms or in studies or whatever,

720
00:40:15.277 --> 00:40:16.808
but the reality of it.

721
00:40:16.868 --> 00:40:40.679
being on the farm and feeling and seeing what it does to you to your land and there's nothing that can be a better kind of proof no absolutely and especially at the beginning of the regeneration path it's a matter of meters i mean if you have an olive orchard and you have the mobile chicken tractor in the middle of the line and

722
00:40:40.680 --> 00:40:45.194
the line is like six meters and the mobile chicken coop is three meters wide.

723
00:40:45.612 --> 00:40:52.952
So there is one meter and a half on the side and one meter and a half on the side where the chicken tractor doesn't move on.

724
00:40:53.855 --> 00:40:54.097
Okay?

725
00:40:54.917 --> 00:41:04.581
Birds go sleeping into the mobile chicken tractor so they have half of the day for pooping exactly where the chicken tractor is.

726
00:41:05.300 --> 00:41:07.831
So if you go up and down on the line with the chicken tractor,

727
00:41:08.019 --> 00:41:10.050
especially at the beginning of the regeneration,

728
00:41:10.051 --> 00:41:10.784
so the first two,

729
00:41:10.831 --> 00:41:11.222
three years,

730
00:41:11.284 --> 00:41:11.956
you will see that

731
00:41:12.588 --> 00:41:14.511
In the line where the chicken tracks are passed,

732
00:41:15.391 --> 00:41:16.573
the grass is lush,

733
00:41:18.112 --> 00:41:18.854
is much,

734
00:41:18.913 --> 00:41:19.675
much taller,

735
00:41:19.757 --> 00:41:19.917
much,

736
00:41:19.995 --> 00:41:22.378
much denser and rich.

737
00:41:24.689 --> 00:41:27.312
Half a meter from the side is poor,

738
00:41:27.472 --> 00:41:28.312
it's weak.

739
00:41:29.433 --> 00:41:35.480
The nice part is that as much as one part gets fertilized in patches,

740
00:41:36.879 --> 00:41:39.847
the herbivores will eat mostly there,

741
00:41:40.410 --> 00:41:41.582
but they will poop everywhere.

742
00:41:42.144 --> 00:41:45.004
So they will distribute those nutrients everywhere.

743
00:41:47.785 --> 00:41:49.879
I think that at the moment we are...

744
00:41:50.876 --> 00:41:53.558
Forgetting what is the main purpose of the farm.

745
00:41:54.879 --> 00:42:01.047
A main purpose of the farm is transforming sunlight into food.

746
00:42:04.570 --> 00:42:06.109
When I speak to you about grass,

747
00:42:07.031 --> 00:42:07.906
people maybe can think,

748
00:42:08.031 --> 00:42:08.187
okay,

749
00:42:08.218 --> 00:42:10.703
but we cannot eat grass by itself.

750
00:42:11.109 --> 00:42:11.234
Yes,

751
00:42:11.281 --> 00:42:16.797
but grass is just an indicator that tells you that the soil is more fertile.

752
00:42:17.700 --> 00:42:33.097
okay at the moment i'm feeding my animals with that grass and i will take food from my animals but if you if i want to cultivate i know barley or apricots or or whatever i

753
00:42:33.378 --> 00:42:46.948
need a fertile soil so that soil that now is just expressing grass is the one that can sustain an healthy tree my trees my olives

754
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:48.601
the one that I started

755
00:42:49.102 --> 00:42:49.923
15 years ago,

756
00:42:51.245 --> 00:42:57.913
doesn't need any more even copper and sulfur because they are so well fed from the ground,

757
00:42:58.695 --> 00:42:59.429
they don't need it.

758
00:43:00.476 --> 00:43:01.718
I want to make you another example.

759
00:43:02.296 --> 00:43:06.140
All the forms of life get sick when they are stressed,

760
00:43:07.124 --> 00:43:12.890
when their immune systems or their body cannot face a challenge,

761
00:43:13.406 --> 00:43:13.640
okay?

762
00:43:15.640 --> 00:43:16.390
So for a tree,

763
00:43:17.356 --> 00:43:24.661
One of the challenges is the water and the nutrients because they cannot go searching for water and nutrients they need around them.

764
00:43:26.724 --> 00:43:30.529
When you reach a certain amount of organic matter,

765
00:43:30.669 --> 00:43:33.013
a very healthy microbiota into your soil,

766
00:43:34.279 --> 00:43:36.888
the grass you can see into my olive orchard,

767
00:43:38.482 --> 00:43:41.779
compared to the other olive orchard that is at the beginning of regeneration,

768
00:43:43.107 --> 00:43:45.700
at the beginning of regeneration the grass becomes dry.

769
00:43:47.120 --> 00:43:57.579
first days of june okay in the other one becomes dry half of july end of july so maybe

770
00:43:58.243 --> 00:43:58.642
40

771
00:43:59.321 --> 00:44:15.352
50 days later means that the moist is into that soil for 40 days more every single year during the summer and when it rains the other one become green again with two small rains in a row

772
00:44:15.972 --> 00:44:18.015
and the other one needs four or five rains.

773
00:44:19.636 --> 00:44:20.716
And during the winter,

774
00:44:21.536 --> 00:44:23.399
here we are 600 meters on the sea level,

775
00:44:23.759 --> 00:44:25.880
some morning can be quite cold,

776
00:44:26.466 --> 00:44:26.724
okay?

777
00:44:27.325 --> 00:44:37.169
And the grass on the not regenerated olive orchard becomes damaged by the frost at minus 0.5 Celsius,

778
00:44:37.841 --> 00:44:38.669
so immediately.

779
00:44:39.450 --> 00:44:40.403
On the other field,

780
00:44:40.981 --> 00:44:41.872
nothing happens,

781
00:44:42.263 --> 00:44:43.513
the grass goes on,

782
00:44:44.068 --> 00:44:47.412
growing and is green and healthy till minus 3,

783
00:44:47.592 --> 00:44:48.834
minus 3.5.

784
00:44:49.533 --> 00:44:59.681
Because the roots are so developed and the soil is so active that they can pump warm water from the ground much better than the other ones that are weak.

785
00:45:00.486 --> 00:45:00.721
Okay?

786
00:45:01.158 --> 00:45:03.127
Imagine how many days during the winter,

787
00:45:03.814 --> 00:45:04.252
more,

788
00:45:04.596 --> 00:45:05.486
how many days more,

789
00:45:05.846 --> 00:45:09.033
my olives can grow compared to the other ones.

790
00:45:09.632 --> 00:45:11.695
Where the frost is effective at

791
00:45:12.316 --> 00:45:14.156
3 degrees upper,

792
00:45:14.398 --> 00:45:14.956
you know what I mean?

793
00:45:15.058 --> 00:45:15.199
Yeah,

794
00:45:15.218 --> 00:45:15.339
yeah.

795
00:45:15.558 --> 00:45:19.683
The days that in Pulicaro the temperature reach minus 4 are,

796
00:45:20.324 --> 00:45:21.222
at the moment very few,

797
00:45:21.284 --> 00:45:21.706
honestly,

798
00:45:21.745 --> 00:45:24.105
also cause this climate change,

799
00:45:24.144 --> 00:45:25.347
but are maybe

800
00:45:26.628 --> 00:45:27.722
15, 10,

801
00:45:28.613 --> 00:45:28.831
okay,

802
00:45:28.878 --> 00:45:29.409
in a year.

803
00:45:30.128 --> 00:45:33.628
And the days that you have minus 0.5 are 30,

804
00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:35.363
35,

805
00:45:35.503 --> 00:45:36.284
40.

806
00:45:36.285 --> 00:45:36.394
So...

807
00:45:38.640 --> 00:45:45.068
The efficiency in terms of photosynthesis of regenerative farming is much more.

808
00:45:46.306 --> 00:45:46.646
And again,

809
00:45:46.685 --> 00:45:49.810
then you can use that tool for whatever you want,

810
00:45:50.974 --> 00:45:52.771
no matter if it is one food or another,

811
00:45:52.833 --> 00:45:55.654
but the point is that you have to build your soil.

812
00:45:56.091 --> 00:45:57.357
Yeah,

813
00:45:57.513 --> 00:45:58.935
so you're capturing sunlight,

814
00:45:59.185 --> 00:45:59.466
basically,

815
00:45:59.467 --> 00:46:02.357
and feeding into your system this energy.

816
00:46:02.919 --> 00:46:04.372
It's the only thing that farmers can do.

817
00:46:04.560 --> 00:46:05.591
We cannot control the sun,

818
00:46:05.607 --> 00:46:06.669
we cannot control the water.

819
00:46:07.104 --> 00:46:10.687
The only thing we can do is trying to maximize for the species through the soil.

820
00:46:11.050 --> 00:46:11.167
Yeah.

821
00:46:11.909 --> 00:46:16.495
And by working the way you work with this complex rotation with animals,

822
00:46:17.276 --> 00:46:17.698
so you have,

823
00:46:17.995 --> 00:46:18.378
first of all,

824
00:46:18.379 --> 00:46:23.464
you have a very diversified production and you can fit more into your land than if you just had 25 cows.

825
00:46:23.488 --> 00:46:23.768
It's crazy.

826
00:46:23.788 --> 00:46:24.209
For sure.

827
00:46:24.709 --> 00:46:27.191
And there's also another economic aspect about this.

828
00:46:27.271 --> 00:46:27.574
Obviously.

829
00:46:27.773 --> 00:46:28.574
I risk less.

830
00:46:29.535 --> 00:46:39.402
Maybe my margin is a little bit smaller sometimes than compared to the good years of someone that just had pigs.

831
00:46:40.004 --> 00:46:40.269
Okay,

832
00:46:40.285 --> 00:46:41.847
because they can be more efficient,

833
00:46:41.879 --> 00:46:44.082
there is a different scale probably,

834
00:46:44.144 --> 00:46:44.426
okay?

835
00:46:45.051 --> 00:46:47.676
But you risk much,

836
00:46:47.754 --> 00:46:48.254
much more.

837
00:46:49.051 --> 00:46:49.254
Much,

838
00:46:49.316 --> 00:46:49.691
much more.

839
00:46:49.832 --> 00:46:51.972
If one ear is not the

840
00:46:52.140 --> 00:47:07.616
best one for olives because olives must be pollinated by the wind so if when they are in bloom there is heavy rain and strong wind they will not be pollinated and you miss one year but

841
00:47:07.772 --> 00:47:19.741
usually if this happens usually it means that it has been a very wet spring so i will have much more grass my lamps will be chubbier

842
00:47:20.804 --> 00:47:25.849
I will have more milk and more eggs and I will buy less hay or I can sell more hay.

843
00:47:26.712 --> 00:47:27.212
You know what I mean?

844
00:47:27.290 --> 00:47:27.411
Yeah,

845
00:47:27.552 --> 00:47:28.333
it bounces out.

846
00:47:28.610 --> 00:47:28.735
Yeah,

847
00:47:29.071 --> 00:47:29.391
exactly.

848
00:47:29.431 --> 00:47:29.556
Yeah,

849
00:47:29.813 --> 00:47:32.134
and so going back to the idea of capturing sunlight,

850
00:47:32.212 --> 00:47:33.399
feeding it into your system,

851
00:47:33.899 --> 00:47:38.798
so by increasing the health of that grass and of those trees,

852
00:47:39.485 --> 00:47:44.110
you increase the amount of sunlight that's been captured by photosynthesis.

853
00:47:44.173 --> 00:47:44.563
Exactly.

854
00:47:45.048 --> 00:47:46.766
And you're going into this loop of...

855
00:47:48.492 --> 00:47:50.314
Increasing the amount of energy in the system,

856
00:47:50.434 --> 00:47:51.696
increasing the health of that system,

857
00:47:51.735 --> 00:47:54.219
increasing the microbial activity in the soil,

858
00:47:54.220 --> 00:47:57.079
and all of that increases the health of your animals,

859
00:47:57.080 --> 00:47:59.063
the productivity of your system,

860
00:47:59.305 --> 00:47:59.680
and so on,

861
00:47:59.704 --> 00:47:59.922
right?

862
00:48:00.282 --> 00:48:00.524
Yes,

863
00:48:00.625 --> 00:48:04.008
and there is also another aspect that increasing,

864
00:48:04.493 --> 00:48:17.040
boosting photosynthesis is the only way for capturing tons and tons of carbon dioxide that we physically put down into the ground through the roots of the plants and the...

865
00:48:18.097 --> 00:48:19.618
Work of the small animals.

866
00:48:19.999 --> 00:48:23.681
You know the kind of beetle that push the manure under the ground?

867
00:48:24.302 --> 00:48:25.063
In September,

868
00:48:25.122 --> 00:48:25.587
October,

869
00:48:25.845 --> 00:48:26.087
year,

870
00:48:26.907 --> 00:48:29.149
we can count 10 per square meter.

871
00:48:29.649 --> 00:48:32.892
They dig and they push the manure under the ground.

872
00:48:33.048 --> 00:48:34.126
They are physically,

873
00:48:34.127 --> 00:48:36.673
because the manure is mostly carbon,

874
00:48:37.595 --> 00:48:40.626
they are physically taking...

875
00:48:40.657 --> 00:48:41.345
Dragging it down.

876
00:48:41.532 --> 00:48:42.157
Dragging it down.

877
00:48:42.313 --> 00:48:42.501
Yeah.

878
00:48:43.001 --> 00:48:43.188
Okay,

879
00:48:43.438 --> 00:48:44.267
but you can do this.

880
00:48:44.676 --> 00:48:46.158
If you don't use insecticide.

881
00:48:46.597 --> 00:48:48.982
The most common insecticide in farming is

882
00:48:49.502 --> 00:48:50.080
Ivermectin.

883
00:48:51.244 --> 00:49:03.482
But it's such a strong insecticide that pollutes and keeps the manure poisoning for insects for six months.

884
00:49:04.013 --> 00:49:04.138
So,

885
00:49:04.451 --> 00:49:05.029
first of all,

886
00:49:06.123 --> 00:49:10.638
the manure doesn't tend to be decomposed.

887
00:49:12.744 --> 00:49:20.013
And no one is keeping down into the ground because every beetle that takes a bite is like a snow white apple.

888
00:49:22.271 --> 00:49:22.692
They die,

889
00:49:22.732 --> 00:49:24.333
poor animals.

890
00:49:24.419 --> 00:49:25.653
But again,

891
00:49:26.857 --> 00:49:27.997
it's all linked.

892
00:49:31.560 --> 00:49:35.107
During the summer we can have some problems with the horsefly.

893
00:49:35.794 --> 00:49:40.528
We have our bull that because he is close in a smaller area,

894
00:49:40.653 --> 00:49:41.732
he's not on pasture because he's...

895
00:49:43.300 --> 00:49:44.201
This bull is not

896
00:49:44.542 --> 00:49:46.563
100% reliable with humans,

897
00:49:46.723 --> 00:49:49.466
so he is on a smaller fence,

898
00:49:49.505 --> 00:49:49.727
okay?

899
00:49:50.126 --> 00:49:51.552
And because he's on a smaller fence,

900
00:49:52.052 --> 00:49:53.848
he was having trouble with this horsefly.

901
00:49:54.911 --> 00:49:58.395
And he was getting nervous and he was even losing weight,

902
00:49:58.958 --> 00:49:59.216
okay?

903
00:49:59.622 --> 00:50:01.716
We have seen he was so nervous and...

904
00:50:03.653 --> 00:50:09.919
We put in with him three little hands that live with him and he stays...

905
00:50:11.696 --> 00:50:17.483
He doesn't move a single muscle because they go and they pick all the horse flies from him.

906
00:50:18.323 --> 00:50:19.944
They produce a lot of eggs,

907
00:50:19.983 --> 00:50:21.264
this tree is small,

908
00:50:22.764 --> 00:50:28.085
but they produce a lot of eggs so they were fed by high density nutrients from the horse fly.

909
00:50:28.991 --> 00:50:35.803
Something I love about the regenerative mindset is the way you creatively turn problems into solutions,

910
00:50:36.397 --> 00:50:36.616
right?

911
00:50:37.764 --> 00:50:40.766
This is exactly what ecology teaches you.

912
00:50:41.426 --> 00:50:44.047
I don't want to be too strict,

913
00:50:44.105 --> 00:50:44.344
but

914
00:50:45.789 --> 00:50:46.969
I am happy that

915
00:50:47.445 --> 00:50:51.523
I didn't study veterinary or agronomy,

916
00:50:51.664 --> 00:50:52.789
but I studied ecology.

917
00:50:53.570 --> 00:50:59.570
Because when I arrived here I wasn't knowing anything about how to raise a pig or cultivate a tomato plant.

918
00:51:00.726 --> 00:51:03.648
But I was having my background on how...

919
00:51:04.668 --> 00:51:05.569
A system work,

920
00:51:06.069 --> 00:51:08.352
how a plant grows,

921
00:51:09.053 --> 00:51:10.713
what are the needings of animals.

922
00:51:10.714 --> 00:51:19.780
The most part of the disease into factories where we raise animals are linked to stress.

923
00:51:21.311 --> 00:51:23.124
The hormones of stress really

924
00:51:23.792 --> 00:51:25.412
destroy the immune system.

925
00:51:26.073 --> 00:51:27.234
That's for us.

926
00:51:29.032 --> 00:51:29.314
And so,

927
00:51:30.353 --> 00:51:35.036
knowing that happy animals are strong animals,

928
00:51:35.193 --> 00:51:36.216
for me was essential.

929
00:51:36.794 --> 00:51:39.255
The first thing I go checking in my earth,

930
00:51:39.256 --> 00:51:41.818
in my group of animals is are they happy?

931
00:51:42.661 --> 00:51:43.693
It's not something fancy,

932
00:51:43.694 --> 00:51:44.302
it's not something...

933
00:51:44.303 --> 00:51:45.630
It's not poetry,

934
00:51:45.631 --> 00:51:47.130
it's very practical.

935
00:51:47.896 --> 00:51:50.240
It's very also related to your economics.

936
00:51:50.833 --> 00:51:51.380
A group of...

937
00:51:51.736 --> 00:51:53.538
Chickens that are happy grows faster.

938
00:51:56.940 --> 00:51:58.323
And gets less disease,

939
00:51:58.343 --> 00:51:59.061
less problems.

940
00:51:59.202 --> 00:51:59.725
Much less.

941
00:52:00.147 --> 00:52:00.382
Much,

942
00:52:00.468 --> 00:52:00.882
much less.

943
00:52:01.507 --> 00:52:05.366
So going back to the point you were making earlier about health and safety regulations,

944
00:52:05.428 --> 00:52:05.608
right?

945
00:52:05.866 --> 00:52:16.522
So if I understand what you're saying is that those regulations have been put in place for these intensive production where they have a high density that welcomes kind of these big problems.

946
00:52:16.523 --> 00:52:20.225
And therefore they put in place these health and safety regulations that are very...

947
00:52:20.896 --> 00:52:25.080
strict and linear to avoid problems there.

948
00:52:25.439 --> 00:52:28.884
But now these health and safety regulations apply to a system like yours,

949
00:52:29.361 --> 00:52:30.728
cause more problems than they solve.

950
00:52:31.564 --> 00:52:32.009
Exactly,

951
00:52:32.205 --> 00:52:33.830
and I want to be even more precise.

952
00:52:35.174 --> 00:52:38.330
If you have a factory with 100,000 birds,

953
00:52:39.017 --> 00:52:39.361
20,

954
00:52:39.455 --> 00:52:41.502
25 birds per square meter,

955
00:52:42.064 --> 00:52:42.502
15,

956
00:52:42.564 --> 00:52:43.455
doesn't change anything,

957
00:52:43.517 --> 00:52:43.799
okay?

958
00:52:46.095 --> 00:52:49.299
Very selected breeds that...

959
00:52:49.492 --> 00:53:04.467
grows very very fast because for having a problem you need the right environment the right animal and the right diet or for being more precise the wrong environment the wrong genetics and the wrong feed if

960
00:53:04.468 --> 00:53:14.599
you don't have these three combined part it's very difficult to have a real problem you know what i mean okay so you have a wrong environment

961
00:53:15.452 --> 00:53:23.279
A very stable and humid and hot environment with high density.

962
00:53:24.658 --> 00:53:25.220
What is this?

963
00:53:25.486 --> 00:53:26.126
An incubator.

964
00:53:27.220 --> 00:53:29.548
But you have to maximize the growth of the bird.

965
00:53:29.947 --> 00:53:32.345
So you want to keep him not too cold,

966
00:53:32.595 --> 00:53:33.126
not too hot.

967
00:53:33.783 --> 00:53:38.892
That is exactly what our environment doesn't do.

968
00:53:40.611 --> 00:53:44.142
Every complex form of life as an animal or a plant

969
00:53:45.125 --> 00:53:53.919
Rely exactly on the fluctuations of the environment for being stronger than the virus and the bacteria.

970
00:53:54.458 --> 00:53:55.098
You know what I mean?

971
00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:59.989
If you put the bacteria under the sun with 35 degrees,

972
00:54:00.067 --> 00:54:01.473
if it's its own...

973
00:54:02.508 --> 00:54:03.149
Good temperature,

974
00:54:03.229 --> 00:54:03.710
it's okay.

975
00:54:03.870 --> 00:54:07.571
But when this stone will be cold in the evening,

976
00:54:07.954 --> 00:54:10.274
he will not be in his right environment.

977
00:54:10.735 --> 00:54:16.384
But the bigger organisms have a way to face it.

978
00:54:16.485 --> 00:54:17.345
You can sweat,

979
00:54:17.587 --> 00:54:18.321
you can move,

980
00:54:19.259 --> 00:54:21.212
you can drink more or less.

981
00:54:21.649 --> 00:54:24.837
Simple forms of life are much more dependent on their own environment.

982
00:54:25.212 --> 00:54:25.415
Okay,

983
00:54:25.915 --> 00:54:26.024
yeah.

984
00:54:26.837 --> 00:54:29.399
So if you have that kind of structure,

985
00:54:29.430 --> 00:54:30.180
you are keeping

986
00:54:31.268 --> 00:54:33.731
Temperature and moist at the same level,

987
00:54:34.090 --> 00:54:34.791
quite constant.

988
00:54:34.813 --> 00:54:38.414
So you are incubating not just your chicken's meat,

989
00:54:38.695 --> 00:54:40.816
but also your viruses and your bacterias,

990
00:54:41.356 --> 00:54:41.856
first of all.

991
00:54:42.723 --> 00:54:48.262
Then genetics that are selected just for performance.

992
00:54:48.512 --> 00:54:49.652
Performance is important,

993
00:54:50.606 --> 00:54:51.762
for sure.

994
00:54:52.074 --> 00:54:56.856
You know how we selected during our history of human beings.

995
00:54:58.608 --> 00:55:00.350
Ten thousand years ago or even

996
00:55:01.872 --> 00:55:02.813
300 years ago,

997
00:55:03.032 --> 00:55:03.813
200 years ago,

998
00:55:04.555 --> 00:55:06.114
I was coming visiting you,

999
00:55:06.676 --> 00:55:07.395
like you did today,

1000
00:55:08.176 --> 00:55:12.981
and if I knew that you were having a nice flock of sheep,

1001
00:55:13.723 --> 00:55:14.505
I was asking you,

1002
00:55:14.590 --> 00:55:14.997
please,

1003
00:55:15.325 --> 00:55:17.622
can you save for me a male and two,

1004
00:55:17.669 --> 00:55:19.044
three females from your flock?

1005
00:55:19.045 --> 00:55:20.715
Because I want to mix my blood,

1006
00:55:20.716 --> 00:55:22.856
I want to change my genetics a little bit,

1007
00:55:22.887 --> 00:55:25.059
and I know you have a nice flock.

1008
00:55:26.403 --> 00:55:27.403
I will pick

1009
00:55:28.044 --> 00:55:30.748
Few individuals that will carry,

1010
00:55:31.508 --> 00:55:32.908
statistically speaking,

1011
00:55:34.291 --> 00:55:36.693
the entire pool of the earth.

1012
00:55:36.694 --> 00:55:39.318
Because I'm not selecting just you,

1013
00:55:39.615 --> 00:55:40.435
then your son,

1014
00:55:40.693 --> 00:55:41.740
then your grandson.

1015
00:55:41.756 --> 00:55:42.295
You know what I mean?

1016
00:55:42.435 --> 00:55:44.638
You're not selecting the single individual.

1017
00:55:45.779 --> 00:55:49.185
You're taking a wider base of genetics.

1018
00:55:49.232 --> 00:55:49.420
Yeah.

1019
00:55:49.810 --> 00:55:50.060
Okay?

1020
00:55:50.607 --> 00:55:50.732
So

1021
00:55:51.201 --> 00:55:54.216
I can go from you because I want to improve my meat.

1022
00:55:54.326 --> 00:55:56.466
So I have seen that you have a little bit.

1023
00:55:57.028 --> 00:56:13.740
bigger ship but you are also selecting for the wool or for the milk and you don't spend time keeping your best ram into a little stable and think okay he's the one that is weights five kilos plus the other and so i wanna just

1024
00:56:13.928 --> 00:56:20.412
reproduce reproduce himself you know what i mean can you follow this yeah okay after this

1025
00:56:21.412 --> 00:56:23.397
200 years ago 300 years ago we

1026
00:56:23.696 --> 00:56:25.518
I started selecting individuals.

1027
00:56:26.018 --> 00:56:26.139
So

1028
00:56:26.499 --> 00:56:29.460
I was coming to you and asking for the lamb,

1029
00:56:29.983 --> 00:56:31.624
son of that ram.

1030
00:56:31.944 --> 00:56:32.186
Okay.

1031
00:56:32.663 --> 00:56:32.944
Okay?

1032
00:56:33.124 --> 00:56:34.647
Yeah.

1033
00:56:34.648 --> 00:56:35.710
This is much faster.

1034
00:56:36.366 --> 00:56:36.991
Much faster.

1035
00:56:37.132 --> 00:56:39.288
You get the genetic traits that you're looking for faster.

1036
00:56:39.647 --> 00:56:40.038
Exactly.

1037
00:56:40.039 --> 00:56:40.147
Yeah.

1038
00:56:40.538 --> 00:56:53.085
You achieve your goals faster because you can select just one animal per time so you can really decide which are the characters that you are interested in and go on like this.

1039
00:56:54.308 --> 00:56:59.333
But at the same time you are selecting an animal,

1040
00:57:00.813 --> 00:57:02.036
a complete animal.

1041
00:57:02.239 --> 00:57:08.200
So you cannot give me a good lamb if the ram is big,

1042
00:57:08.224 --> 00:57:08.560
is fat,

1043
00:57:08.599 --> 00:57:09.927
but have bad hooves.

1044
00:57:09.942 --> 00:57:10.505
You know what I mean?

1045
00:57:10.942 --> 00:57:11.692
Or it's not healthy,

1046
00:57:11.849 --> 00:57:13.739
will just live for a few years.

1047
00:57:15.083 --> 00:57:22.396
So that one is the kind of artificial selection that we have made as human beings more successfully,

1048
00:57:22.442 --> 00:57:22.833
I think,

1049
00:57:22.896 --> 00:57:23.411
in the last...

1050
00:57:24.784 --> 00:57:41.282
thousand years okay the individual selection with some also massive selection from from the flock then we started selecting just a single character we want double breast um chickens so

1051
00:57:41.813 --> 00:57:53.376
we keep apart away from reproductive program all the chickens that doesn't have double breast we focus just on one thing especially with chickens we pick with fast

1052
00:57:53.972 --> 00:57:54.832
rate of grow.

1053
00:57:55.612 --> 00:57:56.853
Because they reproduce very often.

1054
00:57:57.233 --> 00:57:57.593
Yes,

1055
00:57:57.653 --> 00:58:01.694
and a chicken can reproduce in six months and they grow quite fast.

1056
00:58:01.695 --> 00:58:03.190
So it's easier to do this.

1057
00:58:03.651 --> 00:58:10.792
And we started not taking care of all the other aspects of the animal.

1058
00:58:11.339 --> 00:58:12.151
So does it work?

1059
00:58:13.011 --> 00:58:13.292
Well,

1060
00:58:13.823 --> 00:58:14.511
it is healthy,

1061
00:58:14.542 --> 00:58:16.604
it is resistant to this or that.

1062
00:58:16.854 --> 00:58:20.401
Because it's the same time when we started putting the animals indoors.

1063
00:58:21.776 --> 00:58:22.042
Okay?

1064
00:58:23.020 --> 00:58:24.000
And in the end,

1065
00:58:24.200 --> 00:58:25.380
the genetic selection,

1066
00:58:26.081 --> 00:58:27.443
we pretend,

1067
00:58:27.560 --> 00:58:28.341
from my point of view,

1068
00:58:29.462 --> 00:58:33.224
to read what is into the genoma and say,

1069
00:58:33.341 --> 00:58:33.560
okay,

1070
00:58:33.622 --> 00:58:39.583
I can see that that ram has that genetic resistance to that disease.

1071
00:58:39.724 --> 00:58:41.021
I want to use just that ram.

1072
00:58:42.802 --> 00:58:46.068
If you are not very wise and very careful,

1073
00:58:47.771 --> 00:58:48.443
you risk to

1074
00:58:49.408 --> 00:58:52.612
forget about the animal by itself,

1075
00:58:53.830 --> 00:58:56.854
and you just focus on a single character,

1076
00:58:58.635 --> 00:59:02.643
increasing the risk of having an animal that globally is not healthy.

1077
00:59:03.002 --> 00:59:03.120
Okay.

1078
00:59:03.159 --> 00:59:03.784
You know what I mean?

1079
00:59:03.901 --> 00:59:04.784
Yeah.

1080
00:59:04.799 --> 00:59:11.096
Our studies in genetics are so much developed now that people can really know.

1081
00:59:12.593 --> 00:59:13.033
But for me,

1082
00:59:13.253 --> 00:59:14.634
the sensation I have still,

1083
00:59:15.316 --> 00:59:16.716
what I read from studies is that,

1084
00:59:17.177 --> 00:59:17.357
yes,

1085
00:59:17.497 --> 00:59:18.900
now we know all the alphabet.

1086
00:59:19.701 --> 00:59:24.423
And we can read most part of the words and the sentence.

1087
00:59:25.025 --> 00:59:25.845
But it's like in a book.

1088
00:59:27.369 --> 00:59:32.329
It's not enough if you read a sentence here and a sentence over there,

1089
00:59:32.673 --> 00:59:35.314
and you cannot understand all meaning of the book.

1090
00:59:36.048 --> 00:59:38.533
You have not complete point of view.

1091
00:59:38.814 --> 00:59:39.736
This is what I feel.

1092
00:59:40.361 --> 00:59:40.939
I feel that

1093
00:59:42.736 --> 00:59:49.562
There's so much more interaction between different parts of our

1094
00:59:50.023 --> 00:59:53.804
GES that we don't know exactly everything.

1095
00:59:54.609 --> 00:59:54.789
Okay,

1096
00:59:55.187 --> 00:59:55.312
yeah.

1097
00:59:56.867 --> 00:59:58.875
And so going back to this question of...

1098
00:59:58.890 --> 01:00:00.609
I don't know if I'm going too much in detail or...

1099
01:00:00.610 --> 01:00:00.687
No,

1100
01:00:00.718 --> 01:00:01.640
that's really interesting,

1101
01:00:01.641 --> 01:00:03.422
but I want to bring it back to my original question,

1102
01:00:03.453 --> 01:00:05.437
which was about these regulations.

1103
01:00:05.781 --> 01:00:06.234
Yes,

1104
01:00:06.265 --> 01:00:06.843
sorry.

1105
01:00:07.297 --> 01:00:12.359
I was asking if actually these strict regulations we've put in place for these industrial systems systems.

1106
01:00:12.804 --> 01:00:15.345
Doesn't cause you more problem than it actually solves.

1107
01:00:15.725 --> 01:00:16.024
Yes,

1108
01:00:18.946 --> 01:00:27.485
that kind of regulations are based on one idea and on a practical approach on what is in place at the moment,

1109
01:00:27.486 --> 01:00:28.767
so industrial farming.

1110
01:00:29.423 --> 01:00:37.142
So they think that you can avoid a virus and bacteria to enter.

1111
01:00:38.063 --> 01:00:39.735
It's always based on this,

1112
01:00:39.923 --> 01:00:41.017
to zero

1113
01:00:42.032 --> 01:00:42.633
contagious.

1114
01:00:43.394 --> 01:00:49.918
That doesn't work because if we could not do mostly anything even with human viruses,

1115
01:00:50.480 --> 01:00:52.144
with COVID and things like this,

1116
01:00:52.145 --> 01:00:55.386
I mean viruses circulate.

1117
01:00:56.105 --> 01:00:57.285
You can reduce the risk,

1118
01:00:57.386 --> 01:01:10.918
you can improve with vaccination or with I don't know which kind of practice but the point is that we base our biosecurity on

1119
01:01:12.212 --> 01:01:16.677
The idea of keep very very low the risk of propagation.

1120
01:01:18.079 --> 01:01:22.579
They think you can avoid completely the contagious.

1121
01:01:22.720 --> 01:01:23.305
Yeah.

1122
01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:24.221
the main difference.

1123
01:01:24.241 --> 01:01:24.882
So yes,

1124
01:01:25.763 --> 01:01:34.874
obviously how I can tell you that no sick bird will ever pass on the skies of Pulicaro and will not poop on the grass.

1125
01:01:35.491 --> 01:01:36.335
This is impossible.

1126
01:01:36.515 --> 01:01:36.632
Yeah.

1127
01:01:37.015 --> 01:01:37.272
Okay.

1128
01:01:38.093 --> 01:01:41.022
But I can tell you that all the bacteria,

1129
01:01:41.382 --> 01:01:42.366
all the insects,

1130
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:47.257
the density that we have in terms of animals on pasture,

1131
01:01:47.258 --> 01:01:48.382
the different species,

1132
01:01:49.319 --> 01:01:52.554
will keep the risk of a real epidemic.

1133
01:01:53.616 --> 01:01:53.937
Really,

1134
01:01:54.017 --> 01:01:54.237
really,

1135
01:01:54.917 --> 01:01:55.258
really low.

1136
01:01:55.358 --> 01:01:56.720
I cannot tell you zero,

1137
01:01:57.280 --> 01:01:58.743
but it's very close to zero.

1138
01:01:58.744 --> 01:01:59.282
Yeah.

1139
01:01:59.681 --> 01:02:04.024
And they made rules just for the big factory,

1140
01:02:04.509 --> 01:02:05.110
telling them,

1141
01:02:05.509 --> 01:02:07.829
you have to avoid that everything can enter.

1142
01:02:08.689 --> 01:02:10.392
But then it enters,

1143
01:02:10.407 --> 01:02:12.860
because we are seeing that in the past 20 years,

1144
01:02:14.439 --> 01:02:15.923
you know anything about the avian flu,

1145
01:02:17.142 --> 01:02:18.407
but in the past 20 years,

1146
01:02:18.689 --> 01:02:19.548
it got just worse.

1147
01:02:19.564 --> 01:02:20.345
Yeah.

1148
01:02:20.423 --> 01:02:22.064
So it means that that kind of system

1149
01:02:22.352 --> 01:02:23.533
and not because it's polycarp,

1150
01:02:24.114 --> 01:02:26.155
but because that approach,

1151
01:02:26.296 --> 01:02:29.120
the idea you can avoid completely contagious,

1152
01:02:29.179 --> 01:02:29.737
it doesn't work.

1153
01:02:30.038 --> 01:02:30.159
Yeah,

1154
01:02:30.241 --> 01:02:30.464
okay.

1155
01:02:30.917 --> 01:02:33.886
So how would you suggest to change the regulation?

1156
01:02:35.284 --> 01:02:38.050
I think that first of all we don't have to change the regulation,

1157
01:02:38.104 --> 01:02:41.245
but we have to make new regulations,

1158
01:02:41.308 --> 01:02:47.370
because the regulation that works for an indoor cannot work for an outdoor.

1159
01:02:47.683 --> 01:02:47.917
Okay,

1160
01:02:47.933 --> 01:02:50.276
so this would be about creating a new category.

1161
01:02:51.613 --> 01:02:53.314
Recognize that there is another option.

1162
01:02:53.475 --> 01:02:53.674
Yes.

1163
01:02:54.314 --> 01:02:55.916
Finding together again,

1164
01:02:56.338 --> 01:02:58.197
finding together with numbers,

1165
01:02:58.279 --> 01:02:58.939
with studies,

1166
01:02:59.619 --> 01:02:59.900
okay,

1167
01:03:00.861 --> 01:03:06.049
solutions that can guarantee the public health,

1168
01:03:07.064 --> 01:03:08.064
the health of the farmer,

1169
01:03:10.549 --> 01:03:11.674
the health of the animals,

1170
01:03:12.846 --> 01:03:13.252
and so on,

1171
01:03:13.408 --> 01:03:15.049
that are completely possible.

1172
01:03:15.283 --> 01:03:15.408
Yeah.

1173
01:03:16.952 --> 01:03:21.371
Have you had any discussions with people about this?

1174
01:03:22.012 --> 01:03:24.633
Is it something that might happen in the future?

1175
01:03:25.598 --> 01:03:26.457
It will happen,

1176
01:03:26.652 --> 01:03:30.535
because that system is not working anymore.

1177
01:03:31.918 --> 01:03:32.394
So again,

1178
01:03:32.613 --> 01:03:42.238
or we just turn to vegan or cultivate meat or stuff like this that have other kinds of problems that are not...

1179
01:03:42.864 --> 01:03:43.485
Perfect as well,

1180
01:03:43.565 --> 01:03:45.046
like all other solutions.

1181
01:03:45.727 --> 01:03:48.850
Or we have to consider that there should be another option.

1182
01:03:49.370 --> 01:03:49.972
Because otherwise...

1183
01:03:51.253 --> 01:03:51.472
Again,

1184
01:03:51.815 --> 01:03:52.331
my question is,

1185
01:03:53.034 --> 01:03:53.737
your system,

1186
01:03:54.237 --> 01:03:56.995
speaking to the one in the industry,

1187
01:03:57.300 --> 01:03:57.722
your system,

1188
01:03:58.276 --> 01:03:58.815
it is working?

1189
01:03:59.940 --> 01:04:01.061
What do you mean your system?

1190
01:04:01.762 --> 01:04:03.764
The way you are raising animals,

1191
01:04:03.844 --> 01:04:04.567
does it work?

1192
01:04:04.824 --> 01:04:04.945
Yeah.

1193
01:04:05.387 --> 01:04:05.887
Doesn't seem.

1194
01:04:06.285 --> 01:04:06.406
Yeah.

1195
01:04:06.906 --> 01:04:13.293
Doesn't seem because we have huge problem about bacteria's resistance,

1196
01:04:13.317 --> 01:04:13.856
for example.

1197
01:04:14.113 --> 01:04:14.496
Yeah.

1198
01:04:14.512 --> 01:04:17.496
Huge problem in Europe is it is the new pandemic.

1199
01:04:19.746 --> 01:04:21.840
Dozens of thousands of deaths every single year.

1200
01:04:22.559 --> 01:04:24.606
And they come mostly...

1201
01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:26.721
from pigs,

1202
01:04:27.401 --> 01:04:32.589
chickens and other animals indoors because we use too much antibiotics.

1203
01:04:33.089 --> 01:04:34.850
So you want to reduce antibiotics,

1204
01:04:35.069 --> 01:04:36.632
you have to change a little bit genetics,

1205
01:04:36.633 --> 01:04:39.053
you have to change a little bit diet and you have to change environment.

1206
01:04:40.858 --> 01:04:44.999
So once again we come to the same conclusion that this system is just not working anymore,

1207
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:50.108
it's causing more problems than it's solving and there's no way around it,

1208
01:04:50.139 --> 01:04:51.530
it needs to evolve.

1209
01:04:53.216 --> 01:04:54.939
Nature includes farming like you're doing.

1210
01:04:55.701 --> 01:04:57.783
I want to tell you one thing because I agree with this.

1211
01:04:59.068 --> 01:05:00.169
I personally...

1212
01:05:01.148 --> 01:05:10.917
don't agree so much with the vegan idea of having farming without animals because my experience as an ecologist and as a farmer tells me that

1213
01:05:11.495 --> 01:05:16.026
Animals are needed into ecosystems like are needed into the wild ecosystems

1214
01:05:16.706 --> 01:05:18.885
Then I don't want to judge anyone personal choices.

1215
01:05:18.948 --> 01:05:20.823
Obviously everyone have his own reasons for

1216
01:05:21.448 --> 01:05:23.214
Deciding what to eat and what not to eat.

1217
01:05:24.526 --> 01:05:24.995
I Hear you.

1218
01:05:25.089 --> 01:05:30.604
I understand understand you but it's there's a because me as someone who's eaten plant-based most of my life

1219
01:05:31.096 --> 01:05:31.737
I think that,

1220
01:05:33.398 --> 01:05:33.539
well,

1221
01:05:33.619 --> 01:05:40.765
people who decide to go plant-based a lot of the time care about ethics and care about the environment.

1222
01:05:41.484 --> 01:05:51.820
And therefore are probably prime allies in going towards a type of farming and a type of animal farming even.

1223
01:05:52.679 --> 01:05:56.195
That is much more ethical and respectful of animals.

1224
01:05:56.460 --> 01:05:56.898
And nature.

1225
01:05:57.200 --> 01:06:14.796
and healthy and healthy for ecosystems and increasing biodiversity increasing life and therefore i think that industrial farming industrial especially animal breeding is awful it's it's horrific it's horrific we talked about the obviously environmental problems the health problems of the but

1226
01:06:14.797 --> 01:06:23.359
the ethical aspect is is a massive one as well for me this should not exist it should not exist and therefore if we can put forces together i

1227
01:06:23.608 --> 01:06:24.429
Exactly.

1228
01:06:24.430 --> 01:06:24.990
This is the point.

1229
01:06:24.991 --> 01:06:25.730
As regenerative farmers,

1230
01:06:25.830 --> 01:06:28.293
animal breeders and animal rights activists,

1231
01:06:28.312 --> 01:06:30.976
let's use that as a denomination for the group.

1232
01:06:31.074 --> 01:06:31.675
Absolutely.

1233
01:06:31.777 --> 01:06:33.699
Against that common issue,

1234
01:06:33.738 --> 01:06:34.777
I think that would be fantastic.

1235
01:06:34.778 --> 01:06:34.918
Look,

1236
01:06:34.919 --> 01:06:39.441
we have to go back to being fed from ecosystems,

1237
01:06:40.379 --> 01:06:41.972
to eat more close to the sun.

1238
01:06:42.863 --> 01:06:43.488
You know what I mean?

1239
01:06:43.691 --> 01:06:44.300
Yeah.

1240
01:06:44.301 --> 01:06:46.847
We need the whole environment.

1241
01:06:46.848 --> 01:06:48.269
We need all the ecosystem.

1242
01:06:48.847 --> 01:06:48.972
So,

1243
01:06:50.847 --> 01:06:51.269
honestly,

1244
01:06:52.288 --> 01:06:54.833
If you really understand how the ecosystem works,

1245
01:06:56.335 --> 01:07:05.128
you will understand that you can renounce to cheese if you want to renounce the cow.

1246
01:07:06.232 --> 01:07:10.757
You can renounce to the cow if you want to renounce to the meat,

1247
01:07:11.518 --> 01:07:16.221
but you cannot renounce to the cow if you want to eat zucchini,

1248
01:07:17.081 --> 01:07:17.362
wheat,

1249
01:07:17.425 --> 01:07:19.807
because they are part of the ecosystem.

1250
01:07:19.885 --> 01:07:20.909
The point is not,

1251
01:07:21.026 --> 01:07:22.675
it's not a cow,

1252
01:07:22.721 --> 01:07:23.284
it's the how.

1253
01:07:23.346 --> 01:07:27.346
The problem is that we should reduce maybe the amount of meat we eat,

1254
01:07:27.518 --> 01:07:27.909
probably,

1255
01:07:28.253 --> 01:07:28.831
according to

1256
01:07:29.221 --> 01:07:29.878
Albe speaking,

1257
01:07:30.768 --> 01:07:33.393
we should select the mid...

1258
01:07:33.503 --> 01:07:34.253
yes for sure

1259
01:07:34.968 --> 01:07:37.728
And we must be fed from the ecosystem,

1260
01:07:37.888 --> 01:07:39.349
proximity ecosystems.

1261
01:07:39.350 --> 01:07:40.829
Pulicaro can produce a lot of,

1262
01:07:40.849 --> 01:07:42.208
a certain amount of cereal,

1263
01:07:42.209 --> 01:07:43.232
a certain amount of legumes,

1264
01:07:43.233 --> 01:07:43.630
of fruit,

1265
01:07:43.631 --> 01:07:44.169
of vegetables,

1266
01:07:44.568 --> 01:07:44.786
meat,

1267
01:07:45.591 --> 01:07:45.810
eggs,

1268
01:07:45.950 --> 01:07:46.708
milk and so on.

1269
01:07:47.372 --> 01:07:50.388
And we should eat what the ecosystem can produce.

1270
01:07:50.404 --> 01:07:52.779
I can tell you that at the beginning of regeneration,

1271
01:07:53.669 --> 01:08:00.935
it's more effective for the ecosystem if we eat more meat instead of cereals,

1272
01:08:00.936 --> 01:08:02.357
because cereals need...

1273
01:08:02.536 --> 01:08:27.579
a fertile soil how you can fertile the soil if you don't have animals then maybe later you can reduce your consumption of meat because your your soil will be much more productive and you can yeah so what you're saying is that the animals no matter how you look at it they have an important role to play in a healthy ecosystem producing absolutely even producing a fully plant-based diets you

1274
01:08:27.704 --> 01:08:29.329
cannot really get there.

1275
01:08:29.648 --> 01:08:30.448
for 100%

1276
01:08:30.449 --> 01:08:33.867
of the population without having some animals involved in the system.

1277
01:08:34.731 --> 01:08:37.852
There are incredible interesting studies from Pablo Manzano.

1278
01:08:38.570 --> 01:08:53.711
He is an ecologist that studies wild herbivores that can really show you that the cow is in Europe now necessary because we don't have any more wild flocks.

1279
01:08:54.180 --> 01:08:55.301
Of big herbivores,

1280
01:08:55.922 --> 01:09:02.689
could you ever think that the wild blue beasts in Africa are part of the problem of the global warming?

1281
01:09:03.369 --> 01:09:06.213
If I tell you that one million of wild blue beasts,

1282
01:09:06.214 --> 01:09:07.150
blue wild beasts,

1283
01:09:07.151 --> 01:09:07.932
you know that animal,

1284
01:09:07.994 --> 01:09:10.783
this like a cow that lives in the Serengeti and Mesa Imara.

1285
01:09:12.236 --> 01:09:15.033
If I tell you that they are responsible for global warming,

1286
01:09:15.642 --> 01:09:16.236
you can trust me,

1287
01:09:17.158 --> 01:09:21.346
they are there since millions of years and their manure...

1288
01:09:22.264 --> 01:09:22.584
Okay,

1289
01:09:22.925 --> 01:09:33.253
are much more effective in terms of improving the photosynthesis than the few farts they can produce.

1290
01:09:33.254 --> 01:09:33.332
Yeah,

1291
01:09:33.333 --> 01:09:34.519
for sure.

1292
01:09:34.520 --> 01:09:35.753
But this is quite clear too,

1293
01:09:36.136 --> 01:09:42.644
it's quite obvious that a wild animal cannot be part of the problem into his own environment.

1294
01:09:43.285 --> 01:09:43.550
Okay?

1295
01:09:43.738 --> 01:09:44.222
Yeah.

1296
01:09:44.223 --> 01:09:47.863
But if we try to raise cows...

1297
01:09:50.192 --> 01:09:52.895
Trying to imitate in a smaller scale with tools,

1298
01:09:52.956 --> 01:09:53.575
with technology,

1299
01:09:53.616 --> 01:09:54.217
with knowledge,

1300
01:09:54.257 --> 01:09:54.858
with studies,

1301
01:09:55.577 --> 01:09:56.878
as the wild animals do,

1302
01:09:57.280 --> 01:09:58.417
these are part of the solution.

1303
01:09:58.440 --> 01:09:59.440
The cow is part of the solution,

1304
01:09:59.464 --> 01:10:00.284
not part of the problem.

1305
01:10:01.487 --> 01:10:04.987
But if we go on keeping them in to feed lots,

1306
01:10:06.065 --> 01:10:07.393
polluting everything that is around,

1307
01:10:07.471 --> 01:10:11.409
obviously it's not something we can discuss.

1308
01:10:11.612 --> 01:10:12.471
It is a problem,

1309
01:10:12.971 --> 01:10:14.768
Yeah,

1310
01:10:15.034 --> 01:10:15.456
so clear,

1311
01:10:16.143 --> 01:10:16.456
definitely.

1312
01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:20.402
I have just a really small favor to ask.

1313
01:10:20.924 --> 01:10:24.768
If you're enjoying this conversation and would like to support my work and this podcast,

1314
01:10:24.865 --> 01:10:27.045
you can do that in just five seconds.

1315
01:10:28.490 --> 01:10:30.592
Wherever you're listening to this podcast right now,

1316
01:10:30.756 --> 01:10:31.272
Spotify,

1317
01:10:31.397 --> 01:10:32.092
Apple Music,

1318
01:10:32.154 --> 01:10:33.178
or maybe somewhere else,

1319
01:10:33.756 --> 01:10:37.358
just click on the deep seat page and hit the follow button.

1320
01:10:37.983 --> 01:10:39.686
If you want to go just one extra step,

1321
01:10:39.748 --> 01:10:42.576
you can also leave me a five-star review.

1322
01:10:43.529 --> 01:10:45.389
It helps the podcast more than you know,

1323
01:10:45.545 --> 01:10:46.186
and I really,

1324
01:10:46.404 --> 01:10:47.373
really appreciate it.

1325
01:10:47.716 --> 01:10:49.298
thank you so much in advance.

1326
01:10:50.900 --> 01:10:57.269
You are you're part of the EARA group and you're quite an active member I've seen you at conferences in Brussels.

1327
01:10:57.527 --> 01:10:57.909
I try.

1328
01:10:58.183 --> 01:11:02.933
Yeah right what can you tell us more about this how did it come about and what does it mean for you?

1329
01:11:05.995 --> 01:11:06.761
We founded

1330
01:11:07.495 --> 01:11:08.214
EARA with other

1331
01:11:08.636 --> 01:11:17.011
80 farmers from Europe mostly because we met in Germany at the second

1332
01:11:17.616 --> 01:11:19.002
Climate Farmers Conference.

1333
01:11:20.065 --> 01:11:20.509
I met

1334
01:11:21.755 --> 01:11:23.458
Simon Kramer there and other farmers.

1335
01:11:23.860 --> 01:11:28.301
...and for me it means a lot.

1336
01:11:29.723 --> 01:11:35.840
That conference was the first place where I really felt home.

1337
01:11:37.926 --> 01:11:44.239
We are a very small minority and this are sometimes to being the only one thinking one way.

1338
01:11:45.098 --> 01:11:45.911
You start doubting.

1339
01:11:46.926 --> 01:11:50.379
If you are responsible enough wise person,

1340
01:11:50.489 --> 01:11:52.020
everyone tells you you are wrong.

1341
01:11:54.756 --> 01:11:56.299
Even if you're convinced of what you're doing,

1342
01:11:56.339 --> 01:11:57.560
if your advisors,

1343
01:11:57.601 --> 01:11:58.043
if the neighbors,

1344
01:11:58.062 --> 01:11:58.322
if everyone...

1345
01:11:58.342 --> 01:12:00.726
Especially at the beginning of the regeneration.

1346
01:12:00.945 --> 01:12:01.086
Yeah.

1347
01:12:01.226 --> 01:12:01.488
Okay?

1348
01:12:02.371 --> 01:12:02.726
Fortunately,

1349
01:12:02.851 --> 01:12:05.914
I'm enough hard-headed to not give up.

1350
01:12:05.976 --> 01:12:06.937
But yes,

1351
01:12:06.938 --> 01:12:12.468
it was the first time where I really found other people speaking my own language.

1352
01:12:14.260 --> 01:12:20.041
And then we decided to found EARA the year after,

1353
01:12:20.322 --> 01:12:20.900
all together.

1354
01:12:22.119 --> 01:12:23.182
For me it means a lot.

1355
01:12:23.822 --> 01:12:32.642
For me it's a real project for trying to impact reality.

1356
01:12:33.611 --> 01:12:37.189
We can be very diverse into EARA but at the same time very...

1357
01:12:38.940 --> 01:12:39.301
Similar.

1358
01:12:40.282 --> 01:12:42.603
So this is very interesting aspect.

1359
01:12:43.685 --> 01:12:46.189
There are a lot of people that have also different backgrounds.

1360
01:12:46.868 --> 01:12:53.775
So it's a very fertile ground.

1361
01:12:54.337 --> 01:12:58.236
It's incredible that 70-80 farmers from all over Europe,

1362
01:12:58.454 --> 01:12:59.533
some really small scale,

1363
01:12:59.626 --> 01:13:00.158
some big,

1364
01:13:00.267 --> 01:13:00.908
some arable,

1365
01:13:00.923 --> 01:13:01.548
some animals,

1366
01:13:01.626 --> 01:13:03.079
some market gardens even.

1367
01:13:03.345 --> 01:13:03.517
Yes,

1368
01:13:03.658 --> 01:13:04.767
absolutely.

1369
01:13:05.392 --> 01:13:06.126
to get together

1370
01:13:06.900 --> 01:13:11.126
With such a huge diversity and manage to actually come to a common vision,

1371
01:13:11.923 --> 01:13:14.892
common demands for public policy at the EU level,

1372
01:13:14.947 --> 01:13:15.470
things like that,

1373
01:13:15.665 --> 01:13:16.470
it's quite incredible.

1374
01:13:17.173 --> 01:13:18.533
Why is this possible?

1375
01:13:19.634 --> 01:13:26.486
Because we all believe that the only important part is the ecosystem.

1376
01:13:27.158 --> 01:13:28.814
And if you are an arable farmer,

1377
01:13:29.329 --> 01:13:31.361
just taking care of the part.

1378
01:13:32.297 --> 01:13:32.497
And

1379
01:13:32.937 --> 01:13:34.499
I am a livestock farmer.

1380
01:13:35.419 --> 01:13:37.161
I'm following another aspect.

1381
01:13:37.841 --> 01:13:38.404
You know what I mean?

1382
01:13:39.204 --> 01:13:43.228
So we are different actors of the same ecosystem.

1383
01:13:44.306 --> 01:13:51.697
This is why we go quite well along and we try to work.

1384
01:13:52.009 --> 01:13:52.259
Okay,

1385
01:13:52.494 --> 01:13:52.650
yeah.

1386
01:13:54.597 --> 01:13:55.939
What's the future like,

1387
01:13:56.058 --> 01:13:56.398
you think,

1388
01:13:56.718 --> 01:13:57.480
in terms of...

1389
01:13:58.222 --> 01:13:58.460
I mean,

1390
01:13:58.499 --> 01:14:00.464
let's focus on EU policies,

1391
01:14:00.503 --> 01:14:02.085
because this is a big focus of ERA.

1392
01:14:02.124 --> 01:14:04.265
It's trying to influence the next cap,

1393
01:14:04.304 --> 01:14:04.804
for example.

1394
01:14:04.867 --> 01:14:07.546
What are the key elements that you would like to see happening?

1395
01:14:09.093 --> 01:14:09.585
Personally,

1396
01:14:10.726 --> 01:14:16.554
we have to recognize that farming is not just producing goods.

1397
01:14:18.054 --> 01:14:22.226
Farming is taking care of environments.

1398
01:14:23.368 --> 01:14:25.770
is producing oxygen,

1399
01:14:26.492 --> 01:14:27.231
fresh water,

1400
01:14:28.191 --> 01:14:29.113
mitigating winds,

1401
01:14:29.453 --> 01:14:30.516
mitigating erosion.

1402
01:14:31.895 --> 01:14:32.160
And

1403
01:14:32.715 --> 01:14:38.746
I don't want to be paid anymore for the amount of wheat I put in place.

1404
01:14:39.543 --> 01:14:39.871
Okay?

1405
01:14:41.387 --> 01:14:45.371
If someone has to help the farmers of the future,

1406
01:14:46.246 --> 01:14:47.777
he should try to

1407
01:14:48.868 --> 01:14:52.170
Push them to maximize their photosynthesis,

1408
01:14:52.512 --> 01:14:55.053
to maximize the soil cover,

1409
01:14:55.455 --> 01:14:57.252
to maximize the biodiversity.

1410
01:15:00.620 --> 01:15:01.440
This is what we need.

1411
01:15:02.065 --> 01:15:05.784
So to abandon a system that doesn't work,

1412
01:15:05.785 --> 01:15:07.580
that will not survive by itself,

1413
01:15:08.330 --> 01:15:13.877
and start boosting the change.

1414
01:15:14.971 --> 01:15:15.721
This is what I hope.

1415
01:15:16.372 --> 01:15:32.386
It makes a lot of sense and it comes back to what you were saying at the beginning about an extractive system that is artificially kept alive that has no future because these resources will run dry and we're already at this that's the turning point and instead invest and focus on a

1416
01:15:32.448 --> 01:15:37.839
long-term resilient food system that can go on for for generations and generations to come.

1417
01:15:38.698 --> 01:15:39.620
It makes so much sense.

1418
01:15:39.761 --> 01:15:43.386
What is stopping us from getting there you think?

1419
01:15:43.776 --> 01:15:43.995
What?

1420
01:15:44.276 --> 01:15:44.401
Yeah.

1421
01:15:44.917 --> 01:15:45.948
What do you don't like changing?

1422
01:15:46.248 --> 01:15:47.008
We don't like changing.

1423
01:15:47.408 --> 01:15:49.688
We are animals and animals don't like change.

1424
01:15:51.208 --> 01:15:55.427
We are very linked to our habits.

1425
01:15:56.130 --> 01:15:57.349
This is on a personal level.

1426
01:15:58.810 --> 01:16:07.130
And there are still people that think that they can become rich extracting.

1427
01:16:08.833 --> 01:16:09.474
It's quite simple.

1428
01:16:09.771 --> 01:16:09.896
Yeah.

1429
01:16:10.817 --> 01:16:12.458
What is keeping us

1430
01:16:14.336 --> 01:16:22.465
Out of this transition is simply the greed of you and the fear of the changing.

1431
01:16:24.132 --> 01:16:25.992
And that can change with enough.

1432
01:16:26.993 --> 01:16:28.454
I think that it will change,

1433
01:16:28.532 --> 01:16:29.313
it's changing,

1434
01:16:29.575 --> 01:16:29.813
again,

1435
01:16:29.915 --> 01:16:30.794
it is changing,

1436
01:16:31.333 --> 01:16:35.555
because even the greedier are realizing that it doesn't work.

1437
01:16:35.938 --> 01:16:36.055
Yeah.

1438
01:16:36.313 --> 01:16:37.134
That's not the future.

1439
01:16:37.376 --> 01:16:38.055
Unfortunately,

1440
01:16:38.259 --> 01:16:38.798
unfortunately,

1441
01:16:38.813 --> 01:16:41.173
there are people that doesn't care even about their own children.

1442
01:16:43.001 --> 01:16:43.720
So it's a matter,

1443
01:16:43.876 --> 01:16:46.345
I think that it will be like this.

1444
01:16:46.751 --> 01:16:48.720
The only problem is a matter of time.

1445
01:16:49.173 --> 01:16:49.532
We'll be,

1446
01:16:50.063 --> 01:16:50.938
we will be...

1447
01:16:52.648 --> 01:16:53.149
Ready enough,

1448
01:16:53.289 --> 01:16:57.553
fast enough for changing before collapsing?

1449
01:16:58.432 --> 01:16:59.096
Yeah.

1450
01:16:59.097 --> 01:16:59.393
Or not?

1451
01:16:59.796 --> 01:16:59.917
Yeah.

1452
01:17:00.714 --> 01:17:01.573
It's not a matter of choice.

1453
01:17:01.620 --> 01:17:02.378
It's not a matter of choice.

1454
01:17:02.440 --> 01:17:03.300
It will be like this.

1455
01:17:03.940 --> 01:17:05.979
And I will tell you this because it's again,

1456
01:17:06.003 --> 01:17:07.104
it's not Marco speaking.

1457
01:17:07.964 --> 01:17:10.760
Everyone that studied this planet a little bit deeper,

1458
01:17:11.354 --> 01:17:11.854
ecologists,

1459
01:17:11.870 --> 01:17:12.495
geologists,

1460
01:17:12.651 --> 01:17:13.229
scientists,

1461
01:17:13.448 --> 01:17:15.198
we thought that's no other choice.

1462
01:17:15.448 --> 01:17:16.854
That's no other choice.

1463
01:17:17.307 --> 01:17:17.932
It's the clear,

1464
01:17:18.057 --> 01:17:18.448
factual,

1465
01:17:18.510 --> 01:17:19.120
scientific.

1466
01:17:19.807 --> 01:17:20.354
It's so clear,

1467
01:17:20.479 --> 01:17:21.057
everyone knows.

1468
01:17:21.292 --> 01:17:21.979
Yeah.

1469
01:17:22.456 --> 01:17:22.576
Yeah,

1470
01:17:22.936 --> 01:17:23.416
everyone knows.

1471
01:17:24.236 --> 01:17:24.897
One last question.

1472
01:17:25.357 --> 01:17:28.477
If there's one important message you'd like to share with people,

1473
01:17:28.758 --> 01:17:29.238
what would you say?

1474
01:17:30.695 --> 01:17:32.281
Don't stop at slogans.

1475
01:17:33.617 --> 01:17:35.922
Try to dive a little bit deeper.

1476
01:17:36.781 --> 01:17:40.180
Try to read the whole sentence and not the slogan.

1477
01:17:40.414 --> 01:17:43.774
And to not feed polarization.

1478
01:17:44.258 --> 01:17:44.836
Polarization.

1479
01:17:44.867 --> 01:17:49.477
Polarization is the worst thing we can do because it's even before the dialogue.

1480
01:17:50.468 --> 01:17:51.409
You think in a way,

1481
01:17:51.649 --> 01:17:52.411
I think in another.

1482
01:17:53.450 --> 01:17:53.911
I'm right,

1483
01:17:53.930 --> 01:17:54.391
you're wrong,

1484
01:17:54.653 --> 01:17:55.032
that's all.

1485
01:17:56.013 --> 01:17:56.575
And this is the,

1486
01:17:57.294 --> 01:17:57.536
to me,

1487
01:17:57.634 --> 01:18:00.798
the biggest threat we have at the moment.

1488
01:18:01.516 --> 01:18:01.641
Yeah,

1489
01:18:02.102 --> 01:18:04.462
so we need to talk,

1490
01:18:04.579 --> 01:18:05.102
to communicate,

1491
01:18:05.423 --> 01:18:06.712
even when we don't agree.

1492
01:18:06.930 --> 01:18:07.587
And look at us,

1493
01:18:07.618 --> 01:18:13.009
we have an animal farmer and a long-term plant-based diet guy having a nice conversation and moving forward.

1494
01:18:13.071 --> 01:18:13.274
Absolutely,

1495
01:18:13.337 --> 01:18:17.290
I think you can enjoy staying in Pulicano for longer.

1496
01:18:17.984 --> 01:18:27.535
And I will learn something from you and we will find together an even better solution and you will see other aspects that you maybe didn't have the chance to see.

1497
01:18:27.536 --> 01:18:27.816
Of course,

1498
01:18:28.215 --> 01:18:28.754
I would love to.

1499
01:18:29.332 --> 01:18:30.176
I'm serious about this.

1500
01:18:30.355 --> 01:18:30.480
Yeah.

1501
01:18:30.879 --> 01:18:32.137
Thank you so much for your time.

1502
01:18:32.138 --> 01:18:32.840
It's been a pleasure.

1503
01:18:33.637 --> 01:18:34.324
You're welcome.

1504
01:18:34.543 --> 01:18:34.793
Thank you.