WEBVTT

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Hello

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 You made it Hi

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Paul Hi Paul

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 Dérives, episode 2,

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 with Paul Nicholson.

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 We are at Paul's home,

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 which is also his studio in West London,

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 on Tuesday,

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 June 30,

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 2026.

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So who's who?

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I'm Chloe.

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Chloe.

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 I'm Arnès.

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 Arnès.

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 I'm Javi.

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 Javi.

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 Javi.

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 Yeah,

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 well,

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 come on in.

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Thank you.

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Feel at home?

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Nice to meet you.

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 Paul Nicholson is a graphic designer.

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 Over more than 30 years,

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 he has established himself a strong reputation in music,

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 working with artists including Skrillex and Pharrell Williams.

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 His most iconic work remains the logo he created decades ago for Aphex Twin,

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 which has become one of the most recognizable symbols in electronic music.

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 For Etude Studio,

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 Paul has designed graphics for a capsule collection launched alongside Résonances,

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 presented at IRCAM in Paris,

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 and bringing into dialogue John Cage experiments with the emergence of IDM in the early

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 90s.

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When I'm working,

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 I don't actually need much space.

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 I mean,

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 that's all I need.

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 I've got three monitors.

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 So my setups,

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 it's not even that expensive.

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 I mean,

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 everything I've got,

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 possibly £5,000.

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 So if you think about the amount of work I've created in the...

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 Maybe 10 years I've had this equipment.

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 I mean,

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 my PC's 8 years old.

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 I can't imagine there's many designers that have the luxury of being able to use quite old kit.

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 But most of what I do is in Illustrator,

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 a little bit in Photoshop.

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 I'm not doing three-dimensional stuff,

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 so I'm not using...

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 fancy programs like Premiere or 3D Studio Max.

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 I just don't need the power.

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 So

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 I'll work with this machine until it either dies or

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 I start using some software that requires more power.

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 I can show you the setup.

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 This is a Wacom Cintiq.

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 So when I need to create masks or I'm doing drawing,

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 this is one of those ones where you can use a pen on the monitor.

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 So I use that for sketching.

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 This is my main monitor.

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 So this is,

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 I just bought a monitor that had the tightest pixel.

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 So this is the sharpest.

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 So this allows me to see with a lot of detail.

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 And this is...

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 a Japanese monitor that's very good for colours.

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 So

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 I can draw on here.

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 This is where I do most of the work.

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 And then light programmes like Photoshop and Illustrator,

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 you have all of these fly-out toolboxes.

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 Old man,

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 need my glasses.

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 Need my glasses for work.

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 Oh look,

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 here you go.

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 I was

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 Ricky Gervais.

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 I have a lot of comedy playing on in the background when I'm working.

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 Right,

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 shut up.

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 He just said shut up and I was going to say shut up.

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 He beat me to it.

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Alignment.

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I think I just always knew that I had this love and ability to draw.

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 And as a kid,

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 everything's just art.

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 Everything was just grouped as art.

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 So there wasn't any awareness of,

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 say,

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 design or that you might be a logo designer.

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 It was just you could draw.

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 So I think from there I just carried on drawing and then going through school.

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 you know art design then foundation course then university but i think from i would say about 15 it wasn't so much that i wanted to do design i knew specifically it was going to be music related graphics so um this

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 guy Vaughan Oliver he designed for a record label called

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 4ad

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 And,

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 I mean,

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 these are all bands from my mid-teens.

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 So the Pixies,

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 Clan of Zymox,

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 Cocteau Twins,

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 who are still one of my favourite bands of all time.

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 And got This Mortal Coil as well.

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 So

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 I'd have been,

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 yeah,

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 This Mortal Coil.

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 So this is 1984.

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 So

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 I probably got into

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 4AD.

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 Roundabout this time,

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 14.

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 And Vaughan Oliver's just producing these absolutely beautiful pieces of artwork.

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 And...

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 Along with my obsession with music was this love of the design of around music,

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 the packaging.

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 So obviously I was getting into all of that.

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 You also had the Designers Republic.

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 Yeah,

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 I've got too many books,

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 I'll just cram them all in.

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 And when I met Richard,

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 we sat down chatting,

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 so we'd be talking about music.

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 I'd bring records that I had,

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 so

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 I know that I introduced him to certain bands like Cabaret Voltaire,

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 Renegade Soundwave,

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 Meet Beat Manifesto.

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 Because Richard's background was more like Chicago and Detroit house,

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 so he was more into acid and house.

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 Whereas my background was a little bit more like industrial music.

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 Especially,

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 yeah,

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 bands,

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 I mean,

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 funnily enough,

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 I'm going to see Cabaret Voltaire.

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 They're doing their last tour because,

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 I mean,

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 they've been going since the 70s.

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 I think both guys in

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 Cabaret Voltaire must be now mid to late 60s.

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 So,

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 yeah,

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 I'd never seen them as a teenager.

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 So it's like,

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 well,

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 if I don't see him now,

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 I'm never going to see him.

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 So it's kind of come full circle.

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 So it was a really simple process.

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 It's like...

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 I get a girl who's Cornish,

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 she introduces me to Richard,

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 I show the sketchbooks,

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 he needs a logo.

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 And the crazy thing is,

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 is that the two first logos in the book are the very first logos I did.

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 And they're the only time I've submitted one logo and there's not been a change.

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 So what you see there is exactly how I did it,

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 how it was presented and how it was used.

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 So,

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 I don't even...

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 I don't even have preliminary sketches for Aphex Twin logo.

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 I can't remember how I came about coming to that design.

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 But it's not like there's a series of drawings that lead up to it.

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 It's almost like I just had this idea and drew it one time.

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 And I know for a fact that...

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 So round about,

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 I'm guessing,

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 October,

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 November

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 91, R&S had heard Analog Bubble Bath,

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 And they would

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 desperate to get Richard on the books.

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 So he signed a deal with R&S Records and Renard,

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 he's very famous in techno,

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 Renard van der Pielje or something,

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 really long surname.

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 So they're based in Ghent in Belgium.

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 And he was like on and on at Richard,

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 we've got to get stuff out.

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 And every day he's ringing up,

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 when am I going to get the master tapes?

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 When am I going to get the LP.

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 And it was the same with the artwork.

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 It's like,

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 we don't have time at all,

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 get something to me,

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 like end of the week kind of thing.

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 So

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 I know I had to create the logo in a really short space of time.

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 And,

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 you know,

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 back when

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 I started doing graphics,

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 you sent the original artwork.

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 So the hand-drawn stuff was seen as the thing that you reproduce from.

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 So it was kind of crazy that once you'd given away hand-drawn stuff,

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 it was like the last you saw of it.

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 You very rarely got it back.

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 So what would have happened is that the Aphex Twin logo would have gone to some printers in Belgium.

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 They'd have gotten a copy of it,

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 however they did it,

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 and would have thrown it away.

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 So the original drawing would have been in a bin somewhere in Belgium.

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 So,

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 yeah.

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 So,

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 Knowledge was the club to go to at the time because other clubs would be playing the more,

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 kind of,

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 not mainstream because it was,

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 even rave music was underground but it wasn't the sound that Richard and I was into

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 knowledge was playing the sort of labels we're into.

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 So once knowledge started,

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 so I did the logo for knowledge,

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 did the logo for Aphex,

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 then knowledge opened.

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 So

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 I'd already done the two logos before knowledge even...

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 even started so rich and i would go there every week he had a tendency just to kind of chat with other musicians and and people about music and all i would do is once i'd done a few interviews with people i'd just be on the dance floor and

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 then i'd be there until the lights came on and that i kind of got known for that just i was just the guy that would always be on the dance floor

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 And when he got his first gig it was Tresor in Berlin 1992 and I put really simply I think Richard didn't feel comfortable being on stage on his own and being the focal point he was a little bit shy he didn't want that so

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 it's just like look I'm going to Berlin you wanna come with me just do what you do at knowledge but

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 I was basically just a distraction.

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 He could focus on his music and not have to worry about people looking at him,

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 and I'd just be...

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 leaping about.

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 But,

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 yeah,

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 I ended up doing,

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 I think,

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 about

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 50-odd gigs over about a two-year period.

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 But,

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 again,

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 you know,

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 for...

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 you know,

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 someone who...

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 Pretty much just moved down to London a few years before.

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 We didn't have a whole heap of overseas holidays as a kid and all of a sudden I'm going on flights here,

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 there and everywhere,

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 being put up in hotels,

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 picked up in limos,

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 the whole shebang.

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 So it was just crazy.

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 It was a really whirlwind period.

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 And I think as well as it kind of tied in with me as well leaving university,

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 Um...

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 Taking portfolios around record companies,

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 establishing relationships with a couple of labels.

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 So just being busy working on graphics and when I wasn't working I'd be either at clubs or going to perform with Richard.

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 So it was,

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 oh man.

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 I always felt and always believed that if you...

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 have a passion for something and and you're

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 100% into it it's like things will gravitate your way so at the time and then bearing in mind that Richard was just one of many musicians at the time I don't think he'd quite cemented the reputation that he he has subsequently got he

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 was obviously um a musician um

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 at the top,

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 as far as creativity goes.

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 But,

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 you know,

272
00:13:11.346 --> 00:13:11.706
 you had

273
00:13:12.226 --> 00:13:13.667
 Muzik, Mike Paradinis,

274
00:13:13.747 --> 00:13:14.627
 you had Ortega,

275
00:13:14.707 --> 00:13:15.127
 you had...

276
00:13:17.968 --> 00:13:26.772
 ..so many good individuals creating music that it was more like...

277
00:13:28.268 --> 00:13:28.568
 For me,

278
00:13:28.809 --> 00:13:30.370
 it just felt you were part of this,

279
00:13:30.591 --> 00:13:30.831
 like,

280
00:13:30.951 --> 00:13:31.772
 new scene,

281
00:13:31.932 --> 00:13:33.333
 this new way of thinking.

282
00:13:35.476 --> 00:13:36.737
 And it did tie in with,

283
00:13:37.778 --> 00:13:38.239
 kind of like...

284
00:13:40.760 --> 00:13:42.762
 More like practical aspects as well,

285
00:13:42.823 --> 00:13:43.123
 because

286
00:13:43.864 --> 00:13:46.747
 London late 80s was run down,

287
00:13:46.767 --> 00:13:47.588
 it was a shithole.

288
00:13:48.128 --> 00:13:50.571
 So there was plenty of empty buildings.

289
00:13:51.192 --> 00:13:54.315
 So there was plenty of spaces to put on raves.

290
00:13:54.976 --> 00:13:56.617
 There were plenty of cheap,

291
00:13:56.838 --> 00:13:57.598
 run-down,

292
00:13:57.879 --> 00:13:58.399
 former...

293
00:13:59.332 --> 00:14:00.033
 nightclubs.

294
00:14:00.553 --> 00:14:00.753
 Like,

295
00:14:00.813 --> 00:14:06.777
 Knowledge was in a building that had been obviously quite a fancy club in the

296
00:14:07.837 --> 00:14:08.538
 1930s or something,

297
00:14:08.539 --> 00:14:12.080
 because it still had all the art deco fixtures and fittings,

298
00:14:12.640 --> 00:14:13.881
 but it was shit.

299
00:14:14.021 --> 00:14:16.503
 It was all crumbling and falling apart.

300
00:14:16.883 --> 00:14:21.586
 But London was full of these spaces where for maybe a couple of hundred pounds,

301
00:14:21.666 --> 00:14:22.727
 you could take it over,

302
00:14:22.827 --> 00:14:23.647
 put on a night.

303
00:14:24.348 --> 00:14:24.928
 So Thank you.

304
00:14:26.172 --> 00:14:29.375
 You were also aware that you were part of an underground,

305
00:14:29.376 --> 00:14:30.516
 because knowledge,

306
00:14:31.377 --> 00:14:34.319
 even though it was attracting musicians from all over the world,

307
00:14:35.100 --> 00:14:37.002
 it was a venue that had 400 people.

308
00:14:40.697 --> 00:14:49.087
 You really felt like you were part of this like really solid and well connected underground scene.

309
00:14:51.329 --> 00:14:52.631
 So it was kind of special,

310
00:14:52.671 --> 00:14:59.739
 you felt like you were part of a very elite tribe of kind of techno obsessives.

311
00:15:07.296 --> 00:15:09.279
Just to say something about the tattoos.

312
00:15:11.142 --> 00:15:12.384
 The logo is getting big.

313
00:15:13.806 --> 00:15:17.451
 It's getting really famous around the world.

314
00:15:18.132 --> 00:15:22.358
 What's your take on the on people getting tattooed with the logo?

315
00:15:24.081 --> 00:15:25.061
 How do you feel about that?

316
00:15:25.302 --> 00:15:25.422
Well,

317
00:15:25.423 --> 00:15:26.783
 they should all send me £10.

318
00:15:27.804 --> 00:15:28.565
 I could retire.

319
00:15:30.406 --> 00:15:30.767
 You know,

320
00:15:31.047 --> 00:15:31.828
 as a designer,

321
00:15:32.468 --> 00:15:34.830
 you have to be humble.

322
00:15:34.831 --> 00:15:35.971
It's flattering,

323
00:15:36.372 --> 00:15:36.652
isn't it?

324
00:15:36.653 --> 00:15:37.373
 It's flattering,

325
00:15:37.413 --> 00:15:37.913
 exactly.

326
00:15:37.993 --> 00:15:38.133
 But,

327
00:15:38.694 --> 00:15:39.034
 you know,

328
00:15:39.435 --> 00:15:42.517
 something becomes iconic because for whatever reason,

329
00:15:45.040 --> 00:15:48.123
 it just resonates with people.

330
00:15:48.443 --> 00:15:49.724
 And that's all you...

331
00:15:49.724 --> 00:16:09.710
 you can say and it's a combination of many things now obviously if Richard had never had a logo and he just had random artwork every time he did a release it wouldn't stop people liking his music but a logo plays a really important part in cementing in people's

332
00:16:09.870 --> 00:16:17.139
 minds the aura of the music so for example you know the Rolling Stones

333
00:16:17.599 --> 00:16:20.142
 Lolling Tongue or ACDC or Metallica

334
00:16:20.683 --> 00:16:24.748
 I mean these bands have an impact

335
00:16:24.928 --> 00:16:29.112
 far greater than the music would do solely on its own.

336
00:16:29.692 --> 00:16:33.055
 So the logo does play an important part.

337
00:16:33.535 --> 00:16:35.717
 How you quantify that is impossible.

338
00:16:36.517 --> 00:16:39.780
 But it becomes symbiotic.

339
00:16:40.361 --> 00:16:42.062
 You can't separate one from the other.

340
00:16:42.582 --> 00:16:47.767
 So when people join the tribe of music,

341
00:16:48.507 --> 00:16:49.948
 electronic music fans,

342
00:16:50.389 --> 00:16:52.110
 they're looking for this signifier.

343
00:16:52.490 --> 00:16:53.611
 If you join the church,

344
00:16:53.631 --> 00:16:54.472
 you wear a cross.

345
00:16:55.634 --> 00:17:03.987
 and if you follow the church of Aphex Twin you wear the logo and no other musician

346
00:17:04.964 --> 00:17:09.908
 of his era or in his genre had a logo to speak of.

347
00:17:10.789 --> 00:17:11.329
 Ortega,

348
00:17:11.510 --> 00:17:11.650
 well,

349
00:17:12.270 --> 00:17:13.892
 they just have their name written Helvetica.

350
00:17:13.932 --> 00:17:14.552
 It's not a logo,

351
00:17:14.632 --> 00:17:16.053
 it's just a name.

352
00:17:16.874 --> 00:17:17.755
 Boards of Canada,

353
00:17:18.796 --> 00:17:19.356
 not really.

354
00:17:19.616 --> 00:17:20.577
 They don't have a logo.

355
00:17:21.938 --> 00:17:22.439
 Orbital,

356
00:17:22.819 --> 00:17:23.079
 again,

357
00:17:23.139 --> 00:17:24.581
 it's just Orbital written in,

358
00:17:24.582 --> 00:17:24.901
 I think,

359
00:17:25.021 --> 00:17:25.722
 Futura.

360
00:17:26.442 --> 00:17:27.303
 So the thing is,

361
00:17:27.363 --> 00:17:32.828
 is that when looking for a symbol to show your allegiance,

362
00:17:34.076 --> 00:17:35.037
 to this tribe.

363
00:17:35.137 --> 00:17:37.759
 It's like that is the one that was picked.

364
00:17:38.320 --> 00:17:45.426
 But obviously what's happened now is that the logo's grown bigger than the tribe it initially belonged to.

365
00:17:46.047 --> 00:17:52.792
 So a lot of people now who just want to show that they're a little quirky or a little bit more artistically driven,

366
00:17:53.533 --> 00:17:54.954
 it becomes a symbol to show,

367
00:17:55.094 --> 00:17:55.235
 ah,

368
00:17:55.475 --> 00:17:55.655
 look.

369
00:17:57.156 --> 00:17:57.596
 I get it.

370
00:17:58.357 --> 00:18:02.940
 And this is the thing is that this thing takes time.

371
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:03.700
 You know,

372
00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:05.782
 the Rolling Stones lolling tongue or,

373
00:18:06.202 --> 00:18:06.462
 you know,

374
00:18:06.542 --> 00:18:09.664
 the Joy Division with the sound waves.

375
00:18:11.246 --> 00:18:11.966
 It wasn't a...

376
00:18:11.966 --> 00:18:29.416
 as important in 1980 as it is now so for i mean it what's his name um peter saville peter saville yes god the amount of times i've mentioned him in discussions and when i actually need to say it but

377
00:18:29.436 --> 00:18:34.839
 no um pete saville i mean it is very interesting and

378
00:18:35.984 --> 00:18:36.444
 As I say,

379
00:18:36.524 --> 00:18:37.685
 you've got to be humble,

380
00:18:37.805 --> 00:18:45.910
 and I'm genuinely very pleased and fortunate to have been someone that was involved in that process.

381
00:18:46.250 --> 00:18:53.275
 Because the fact that you guys are here now is in part down to my involvement in that time.

382
00:18:54.355 --> 00:18:57.998
 So had I maybe chosen a slightly different path,

383
00:18:58.858 --> 00:19:01.720
 and to be my age and still designing is very rare.

384
00:19:02.924 --> 00:19:08.672
 I would love to know out of the 30 other students on my course how many are still designing.

385
00:19:09.733 --> 00:19:10.615
 I doubt there's many.

386
00:19:12.217 --> 00:19:17.163
So that would be your definition of what makes a logo truly iconic?

387
00:19:17.864 --> 00:19:18.245
 Time?

388
00:19:21.493 --> 00:19:21.653
Yeah,

389
00:19:21.753 --> 00:19:22.553
 you need time.

390
00:19:23.834 --> 00:19:25.835
 Something only becomes iconic over time.

391
00:19:26.376 --> 00:19:28.417
 It's the same with the music.

392
00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:35.242
 I bet Selected Ambient Works sells more on a week-to-week basis now than it...

393
00:19:35.622 --> 00:19:39.146
 has done in any point in time leading up to now.

394
00:19:40.227 --> 00:19:41.689
 It gathers momentum.

395
00:19:42.209 --> 00:19:46.194
 It's now almost become a must-have part of any collection.

396
00:19:47.075 --> 00:19:48.556
 But it's,

397
00:19:48.616 --> 00:19:49.117
 like I say,

398
00:19:49.618 --> 00:19:50.018
 it's...

399
00:19:53.688 --> 00:19:56.629
 It's very complex because it's all cumulative.

400
00:19:56.969 --> 00:19:57.209
 You know,

401
00:19:57.229 --> 00:20:01.770
 because obviously there will be people who wrote about music 30 years ago.

402
00:20:01.910 --> 00:20:03.731
 If somebody's going to write about Aphex Twin now,

403
00:20:03.991 --> 00:20:04.651
 what are they going to do?

404
00:20:04.751 --> 00:20:08.312
 The first thing they're going to do is type a search on all articles on Aphex Twin.

405
00:20:08.772 --> 00:20:14.334
 So the sort of things that were said 30 years ago will be simply repeated.

406
00:20:14.874 --> 00:20:16.694
 And once it's repeated a hundred times,

407
00:20:16.695 --> 00:20:18.215
 it just becomes the mythology.

408
00:20:18.895 --> 00:20:20.535
 So all the stories about Richard,

409
00:20:20.635 --> 00:20:21.396
 for example,

410
00:20:21.676 --> 00:20:21.796
 Oh,

411
00:20:21.797 --> 00:20:22.056
 you know,

412
00:20:22.624 --> 00:20:23.965
 He makes his own equipment,

413
00:20:24.185 --> 00:20:25.766
 he does music in his sleep.

414
00:20:26.667 --> 00:20:26.987
 I mean,

415
00:20:27.468 --> 00:20:30.990
 it's just a myth that grew from nothing,

416
00:20:31.110 --> 00:20:33.332
 or just an offer cut for a mark,

417
00:20:33.352 --> 00:20:35.073
 and it's just grown and grown and grown.

418
00:20:35.694 --> 00:20:35.954
 And,

419
00:20:37.635 --> 00:20:37.975
 you know,

420
00:20:38.416 --> 00:20:44.500
 how many people wear the Aphex Twin logo and might not even know it's to do some music?

421
00:20:44.560 --> 00:20:45.781
 They've just seen it around.

422
00:20:46.141 --> 00:20:49.704
 How many people wear CBGB shirts or the Joy Division shirt

423
00:20:50.224 --> 00:20:53.106
 who really understands about the origin.

424
00:20:53.606 --> 00:20:58.929
 So I just think once something gets elevated to an iconic status,

425
00:20:59.769 --> 00:21:00.210
 it just,

426
00:21:00.670 --> 00:21:00.850
 yeah,

427
00:21:01.070 --> 00:21:02.431
 it takes a life of its own.

428
00:21:04.852 --> 00:21:05.072
 It's,

429
00:21:05.453 --> 00:21:05.793
 again,

430
00:21:06.513 --> 00:21:08.775
 I think everyone's going to have different theories on it,

431
00:21:08.815 --> 00:21:12.598
 but I don't think you can sit down and create something iconic.

432
00:21:12.658 --> 00:21:13.419
 It just happens.

433
00:21:14.120 --> 00:21:16.882
 I don't think any musician sat down and gone,

434
00:21:16.883 --> 00:21:17.002
 oh,

435
00:21:17.062 --> 00:21:20.305
 this is going to be sang for the next hundred years.

436
00:21:20.525 --> 00:21:20.785
 You know,

437
00:21:20.845 --> 00:21:21.506
 whether it's

438
00:21:22.146 --> 00:21:24.148
 Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Band or,

439
00:21:24.768 --> 00:21:25.028
 you know,

440
00:21:25.109 --> 00:21:25.829
 Jimi Hendrix,

441
00:21:25.909 --> 00:21:26.269
 I mean,

442
00:21:26.810 --> 00:21:29.452
 you're just responding to how you feel.

443
00:21:30.073 --> 00:21:34.136
 And then if you sum up a point in time,

444
00:21:34.696 --> 00:21:35.336
 beautifully,

445
00:21:36.077 --> 00:21:39.880
 then it will go on as being emblematic and iconic of that time.

446
00:21:47.465 --> 00:21:50.027
Can we talk about the logo you did for Études?

447
00:21:50.567 --> 00:21:51.387
 How did you do it?

448
00:21:53.089 --> 00:21:57.632
It was a whole thing of capturing that era.

449
00:21:58.552 --> 00:22:02.995
 So that particular look with all the curves.

450
00:22:03.996 --> 00:22:05.877
 that is somewhat

451
00:22:06.978 --> 00:22:09.999
 Aphexian in its look.

452
00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:13.081
 It was really just capturing that look,

453
00:22:13.121 --> 00:22:15.262
 but trying to do something different with it.

454
00:22:16.163 --> 00:22:24.868
 What's been quite good is that obviously when people have Aphex Twin logo as a reference point,

455
00:22:25.348 --> 00:22:32.152
 what's quite good as a design exercise is to try and reinterpret essence of that look.

456
00:22:33.012 --> 00:22:35.573
 but without it being too similar.

457
00:22:36.033 --> 00:22:36.994
 So it's been quite good.

458
00:22:37.034 --> 00:22:40.876
 I've been able to really push that particular aesthetic style.

459
00:22:41.856 --> 00:22:45.838
 And then there was two elements for the project because there was the noise element as well.

460
00:22:49.520 --> 00:22:50.741
 So again,

461
00:22:51.501 --> 00:22:55.943
 I was looking at ways I was working in the early

462
00:22:56.543 --> 00:22:56.664
 90s.

463
00:23:05.312 --> 00:23:06.773
 There was a whole thing with,

464
00:23:08.594 --> 00:23:09.614
 during the 80s and the 90s,

465
00:23:09.794 --> 00:23:16.797
 there was this whole obsession with the textures to do with deficiencies of technology.

466
00:23:16.938 --> 00:23:21.900
 So the sort of things that you'd get using Xerox machines and photocopying.

467
00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:26.882
 So this whole thing of the distressed image or glitch.

468
00:23:27.603 --> 00:23:29.784
 So you've got artists like...

469
00:23:31.844 --> 00:23:32.744
 April Griman,

470
00:23:32.764 --> 00:23:33.405
 who in the late

471
00:23:33.865 --> 00:23:39.747
 80s was one of the first artists to really exploit the Macintosh,

472
00:23:39.748 --> 00:23:40.067
 you know,

473
00:23:40.107 --> 00:23:41.488
 the Apple machines.

474
00:23:42.128 --> 00:23:46.470
 So what she was doing is in looking for aesthetic around computers,

475
00:23:46.530 --> 00:23:49.951
 was looking at the things that it couldn't do or the things that it did badly.

476
00:23:50.572 --> 00:23:56.434
 And the aesthetic became linked with technology because it was mostly glitch.

477
00:23:56.734 --> 00:23:57.114
 In fact,

478
00:23:57.134 --> 00:23:59.095
 I have her book over here.

479
00:24:02.780 --> 00:24:03.621
 April Griman,

480
00:24:03.781 --> 00:24:04.161
 here we go.

481
00:24:05.102 --> 00:24:05.222
 So,

482
00:24:06.103 --> 00:24:06.383
 you know,

483
00:24:06.844 --> 00:24:07.384
 this is,

484
00:24:07.524 --> 00:24:08.385
 I think,

485
00:24:08.386 --> 00:24:11.788
 1989,

486
00:24:11.789 --> 00:24:12.008
 maybe.

487
00:24:13.149 --> 00:24:13.950
 So I went to

488
00:24:14.811 --> 00:24:17.313
 April Grime and show at the Design Museum,

489
00:24:17.393 --> 00:24:18.394
 which would have been,

490
00:24:19.555 --> 00:24:19.675
 well,

491
00:24:19.695 --> 00:24:20.656
 I was still seeing Emma.

492
00:24:20.936 --> 00:24:22.878
 So that was the girl who dumped me in 91.

493
00:24:22.898 --> 00:24:27.562
 So I think I went to the April Grime and show in 1990.

494
00:24:27.563 --> 00:24:28.543
 So if you look here,

495
00:24:29.584 --> 00:24:31.765
 So I've had this book ages.

496
00:24:32.245 --> 00:24:33.406
 So when I was looking at...

497
00:24:34.186 --> 00:24:34.546
 There you go,

498
00:24:34.646 --> 00:24:34.766
 look.

499
00:24:34.786 --> 00:24:35.066
 I mean,

500
00:24:35.466 --> 00:24:38.968
 when I was looking for reference points of what to do for Études,

501
00:24:39.808 --> 00:24:40.328
 it was like,

502
00:24:40.348 --> 00:24:40.548
 well,

503
00:24:40.708 --> 00:24:40.969
 you know,

504
00:24:41.609 --> 00:24:43.310
 the early pixels,

505
00:24:43.850 --> 00:24:48.111
 the way that there were limitations to what computers could do.

506
00:24:49.052 --> 00:24:52.433
 But those limitations became the aesthetic.

507
00:24:53.033 --> 00:24:59.436
 So you can see she's really exploited basically the shit that a computer would produce.

508
00:24:59.956 --> 00:25:00.197
 I mean,

509
00:25:00.797 --> 00:25:03.379
 it's so frighteningly basic now,

510
00:25:03.919 --> 00:25:08.683
 but at the time this looked completely future because it was all new textures.

511
00:25:08.763 --> 00:25:20.271
 All of this kind of stuff in 1989 just looks so modern because it was purely down to what the technology would throw up.

512
00:25:21.872 --> 00:25:22.893
 And it was a bit like,

513
00:25:23.693 --> 00:25:23.933
 you know,

514
00:25:23.934 --> 00:25:25.995
 when I was doing foundation course,

515
00:25:26.055 --> 00:25:27.236
 it was when the canon...

516
00:25:27.656 --> 00:25:43.613
 color photocopiers first came out and there were things that it would mess up so when you'd put things through the color copier it would fuck up colors or it would distort the image but that became the thing you wanted you were looking for where

517
00:25:43.633 --> 00:25:49.280
 it went wrong the glitches the errors the faults the oversaturation of colors

518
00:25:49.744 --> 00:25:50.404
 So as I say,

519
00:25:50.664 --> 00:25:51.925
 working on Études,

520
00:25:51.926 --> 00:25:57.666
 I was just looking at all of the things that got me excited all those years ago.

521
00:25:58.287 --> 00:25:58.767
 So yeah,

522
00:25:58.787 --> 00:25:59.087
 I mean,

523
00:25:59.607 --> 00:26:01.008
 now you know my secret.

524
00:26:01.148 --> 00:26:02.508
 That's where it was all from.

525
00:26:07.530 --> 00:26:11.411
 When you wear something you really like and you've got swagger,

526
00:26:12.311 --> 00:26:13.551
 you're walking down the street and you're like,

527
00:26:13.851 --> 00:26:14.452
 I look good.

528
00:26:15.572 --> 00:26:17.693
 It doesn't matter if anyone else gets it.

529
00:26:17.773 --> 00:26:18.893
 And most of the time,

530
00:26:19.073 --> 00:26:20.574
 I think the sort of things I wear,

531
00:26:20.674 --> 00:26:24.475
 most people wouldn't attribute any value to it.

532
00:26:24.955 --> 00:26:28.736
 So brands that I mentioned,

533
00:26:28.757 --> 00:26:29.737
 like Maharishi,

534
00:26:32.138 --> 00:26:33.178
 Nigel Caborn,

535
00:26:34.518 --> 00:26:36.399
 maybe Buzz Rickson from Japan,

536
00:26:36.419 --> 00:26:36.779
 I mean,

537
00:26:37.099 --> 00:26:37.860
 those that know,

538
00:26:37.980 --> 00:26:38.280
 know.

539
00:26:39.336 --> 00:26:44.860
 But it's a bit like you're communicating to other nerds like yourself.

540
00:26:44.921 --> 00:26:46.722
 It's a real niche thing.

541
00:26:47.262 --> 00:26:47.382
 So,

542
00:26:50.145 --> 00:26:51.686
 if I don't like what I'm wearing,

543
00:26:51.746 --> 00:26:52.827
 I feel uncomfortable.

544
00:26:53.848 --> 00:26:53.968
 So,

545
00:26:55.429 --> 00:27:00.893
 if I go somewhere where everybody's really gone to trouble,

546
00:27:00.894 --> 00:27:02.394
 like if I went to Paris Fashion Week,

547
00:27:03.115 --> 00:27:03.495
 I know...

548
00:27:05.196 --> 00:27:06.317
 I'm not in their league.

549
00:27:06.397 --> 00:27:07.599
 I'll never be in their league.

550
00:27:07.600 --> 00:27:08.460
 So I'm not going to compete.

551
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:09.781
 I'll just wear what I like and go,

552
00:27:09.921 --> 00:27:10.081
 well,

553
00:27:10.282 --> 00:27:10.842
 I look good.

554
00:27:18.310 --> 00:27:19.992
You are listening to Dérives,

555
00:27:21.293 --> 00:27:22.935
 a podcast by Études Studio.

556
00:27:28.792 --> 00:27:30.496
Here we are walking along the canal.

557
00:27:31.077 --> 00:27:32.661
 So the part of London I live in,

558
00:27:32.741 --> 00:27:38.653
 we're right by the canal that takes us down to Brentford and ultimately the River Thames.

559
00:27:41.028 --> 00:27:54.819
 One of the things I do love about London is all of the layers of history and in particular during my time in London I spent a lot of time cycling along canals so

560
00:27:56.120 --> 00:27:59.303
 I'm kind of connected to the canals.

561
00:28:01.812 --> 00:28:05.234
 I think that I am drawn to decay.

562
00:28:06.455 --> 00:28:16.702
 So there's something very appealing about canals because it's such old technology and a lot of the architecture

563
00:28:16.762 --> 00:28:24.966
 around canals has ended its original usage.

564
00:28:25.867 --> 00:28:28.348
 So like here you've got this chimney stack,

565
00:28:28.908 --> 00:28:32.370
 so whatever reason that was built for no longer exists.

566
00:28:32.950 --> 00:28:35.192
 So you've got all this dead tech that

567
00:28:36.324 --> 00:28:37.225
 So that

568
00:28:38.026 --> 00:28:39.567
 I just find fascinating.

569
00:28:40.448 --> 00:28:43.871
 So this kind of architecture of warehousing,

570
00:28:44.431 --> 00:28:51.838
 and you can imagine that there would have been a time when they were transferring goods to these warehouses off barges,

571
00:28:51.878 --> 00:28:52.779
 and it's all gone.

572
00:28:56.424 --> 00:28:57.024
 Right there Rory,

573
00:28:57.965 --> 00:28:58.645
 you're fishing.

574
00:28:59.306 --> 00:29:01.527
 Oh this guy's sticking a dead cat in my face.

575
00:29:02.668 --> 00:29:02.848
 Now

576
00:29:03.448 --> 00:29:04.709
 I'm doing an interview.

577
00:29:05.470 --> 00:29:07.791
 This is my son's friend who goes fishing.

578
00:29:08.512 --> 00:29:09.472
 Saw you after today.

579
00:29:10.693 --> 00:29:11.513
 Well good luck my man.

580
00:29:15.616 --> 00:29:16.316
More broadly,

581
00:29:18.037 --> 00:29:21.139
 how do you think graphic design interacts with our daily lives?

582
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:24.001
Well here's the thing is,

583
00:29:25.362 --> 00:29:30.525
 whether people recognize infants of graphic design is the question.

584
00:29:30.725 --> 00:29:35.609
 Because obviously everything we consume has been designed.

585
00:29:38.731 --> 00:29:42.916
 you don't buy anything these days that hasn't been touched by a graphic designer.

586
00:29:43.357 --> 00:29:44.818
 But whether people get it,

587
00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:45.860
 I mean,

588
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:46.340
 obviously,

589
00:29:47.702 --> 00:29:52.628
 someone who's maybe not into design at all,

590
00:29:53.348 --> 00:29:57.010
 but they'll still be obsessed by Nike or Adidas.

591
00:30:00.191 --> 00:30:05.033
 I think people are probably a lot more design literate now than they were,

592
00:30:05.113 --> 00:30:05.273
 say,

593
00:30:05.353 --> 00:30:06.554
 10 or 20 years ago.

594
00:30:08.415 --> 00:30:10.195
 People are very much into brands.

595
00:30:11.776 --> 00:30:13.137
 Does that answer the question?

596
00:30:17.538 --> 00:30:18.259
It's so nice,

597
00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:18.679
 this draw.

598
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:18.759
 Yeah,

599
00:30:18.760 --> 00:30:19.819
 really.

600
00:30:19.820 --> 00:30:20.180
Watch out.

601
00:30:21.792 --> 00:30:21.912
 Oh,

602
00:30:21.913 --> 00:30:22.092
 he's gone.

603
00:30:22.093 --> 00:30:22.172
 Oh,

604
00:30:22.173 --> 00:30:23.413
it's not a play.

605
00:30:24.534 --> 00:30:24.854
 Thank you,

606
00:30:24.874 --> 00:30:25.094
 Paul.

607
00:30:25.975 --> 00:30:26.595
My pleasure.

608
00:30:27.816 --> 00:30:28.176
Cheers.

609
00:30:30.778 --> 00:30:31.339
I'm trying to...

610
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:33.040
 What's...

611
00:30:33.041 --> 00:30:34.301
 I was thinking of De nada,

612
00:30:34.381 --> 00:30:34.761
 but that's

613
00:30:35.161 --> 00:30:35.902
 Spanish, isn't it?

614
00:30:36.602 --> 00:30:38.063
 What's the French version?

615
00:30:38.403 --> 00:30:38.624
 De rien.

616
00:30:38.625 --> 00:30:38.844
 De rien.

617
00:30:40.565 --> 00:30:40.885
See you.

618
00:30:45.989 --> 00:30:47.970
 Dérives is a podcast by Études Studio,

619
00:30:48.891 --> 00:30:50.672
 directed by Chloé Saramea.

620
00:30:51.548 --> 00:30:53.456
 Recorded by Javier Carles,

621
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:56.509
 edited and sound design by Elias Magnin.