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Welcome back to the Deep Seed podcast where we talk about the future of food and farming and in particular regenerative agriculture.

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This week I am in the northwest of Italy to meet with Tommaso Gaifami.

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He's an agronomist and agroecologist and we're going to talk about the difference between agronomists and agroecologists and the role that they both play in the regenerative transition.

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In our discussion today we spent a good 30 minutes

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describing in detail what a four-year rotation might look like for a farmer here in the region.

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And that exercise was so interesting because it allowed me to understand a lot better all of the complexities and the nuances of every decision that farmers have to make on their farm on a daily,

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weekly,

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monthly basis.

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This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital.

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I am your host,

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Raphael,

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and this is the Deep Seed Podcast.

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Hi Tommaso,

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how are you doing today?

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I'm alright,

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thank you Raphael.

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Thank you for including me in this podcast and for having the opportunity to share my experience with you today.

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My pleasure,

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my pleasure.

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We are today in northwest of Italy,

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sort of between Milan,

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Torino,

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Genova,

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kind of around that.

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area.

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Maybe you could start by introducing yourself a little bit.

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You could tell us about your personal story and about how you became so passionate about agronomy,

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soil science,

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agroecology and things like that.

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Yeah,

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sure.

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I think that my passion for agroecology and agriculture starts from my family because my father and my mother,

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they love nature.

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And this passion of nature was something that was transmitted and transferred to myself as well.

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So,

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starting from this,

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I think that in my childhood,

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I was very highly in contact with nature and open space in general.

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And I think that this influenced a lot also the decision of following the courses of agriculture and becoming an agronomist.

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And it's interesting because after my high school,

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I was in between architecture,

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philosophy and agriculture.

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I didn't know what to choose.

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But then I think that now I'm kind of practicing all of these subjects in my job,

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in the sense that working as an agroecologist,

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and then maybe I will tell you more about what an agroecology does and what an agroecology means.

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But at the end,

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I decided for agriculture.

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And in particular,

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during my bachelor,

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I was very much interested in the,

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let's say,

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natural part of agriculture,

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in the sense that all my colleagues were used to talk about tractors and the high input they were used to put in their own farm,

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because most of them were the sons of farmers,

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while I was much more interested in the,

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let's say,

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services,

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ecology that agriculture can provide.

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And I decided to move to Wageningen,

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which is in the Netherlands,

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because I didn't find a course in Italy that could have like a broad and integrated,

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let's say,

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type of subjects and approach.

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While my master in Wageningen was much more characterized by the...

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combination of different types of subjects,

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not only technical subjects like the study of soil,

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weeds,

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animal production,

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plants in particular,

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but it included also like,

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for instance,

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social subjects.

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So the study of the society,

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how the society can influence,

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let's say,

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agriculture and how agriculture can influence the society.

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It was very much broader than the specific

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subject of agriculture was like how agriculture is integrated in the context of each specific territory and societies okay yeah yeah that's interesting actually i wanted to ask you that because so you're an agronomist and i hear a lot that a

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lot of the agronomy studies available today are still really based around the conventional mindsets and thinking and processes and a lot of agronomists come out of university with that skill set,

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right?

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And so I was wondering how you become an agroecological agronomist,

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you know,

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someone who comes out of studies with a real scientific knowledge about agronomy,

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but from the agroecology side of things.

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So first of all,

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is that the case?

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Is that true that most agronomy studies today are still very much...

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centered around the old school conventional mentality of farming?

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I would say yes,

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definitely.

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I cannot say that studying agronomy is not useful.

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I completely disagree on this sentence in the sense that I think that studying agronomy,

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like in my case,

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it's fundamental to understand the biological processes and the chemicals.

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and the reason why we do

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what we do in agriculture,

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so what's behind,

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so all the chemistry,

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the biology,

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and the functioning of plants.

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And this is a basis,

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a theoretical basis,

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which is fundamental,

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it's very important.

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And I'm glad that I had the opportunity to study all that stuff.

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But I think that there are still few courses,

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let's say,

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that can provide a,

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let's say,

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broader idea of agriculture.

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in the sense that it's also,

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let's say,

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how agriculture is integrated within a much more complex and integrated food system.

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And the capacity of understanding that each farm has to be integrated,

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let's say,

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in a different context,

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with a different society around the farm,

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with different goals,

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let's say,

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I think this is fundamental for working.

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as an agroecologist and to foster the transition of the farmers toward more agroecological systems,

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let's say.

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So the way you explain things,

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it seems like there's a clear difference between an agronomist and an agroecologist.

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Is that right?

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Yeah,

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I think that the main difference is that the agronomist has the basis to,

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let's say,

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understand the scientific reason behind certain agronomical processes.

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But what is missing in most of the agronomists,

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let's say,

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so the person that has been studying agronomy,

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it's the capacity of looking at the farm as a system which is included in a certain context.

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And the capacity of the agroecologists and what makes the difference between an agronomist and agroecologist,

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I think it's the fact that

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An agroecologist is also able to understand the dynamics of the society and how the farm is included and is influenced by the society around the farm.

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And moreover,

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I think that it's very important to being able to connect and to interact with different types of stakeholders,

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which are somehow connected to the agri-food system.

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but are not necessarily specifically on the field of agronomy or farmers,

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but also like consumers,

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food chain actors,

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retailers,

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the society,

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because an agroecologist is also the person that bridged the gap between the countryside,

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which is represented by the farmer,

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and the city,

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which is represented by the society.

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So this gap between the two parties,

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let's say,

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I think it's fundamental to kind of uh

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get the two parts closer and the role of agroecologist

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I think is also to bridge this gap.

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Okay,

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yeah,

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yeah.

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So,

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yeah.

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Okay,

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make sense.

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And well,

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you know what?

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I think it would be a great idea to use this case study,

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this place here,

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this farm,

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which you've been working on for a number of years,

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right?

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Yes,

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yes.

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To demonstrate what you're saying here,

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to explain the role,

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your role as an agroecology agronomist.

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Yes.

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Right?

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Yeah,

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that's why...

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It's not by chance that I came up here because I think that this project,

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which is the project of Cascina Romanengo,

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which is the place where we are now,

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it's a place where we are fitting all the principles of agroecology in one project.

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It's not just a farm.

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I think it's something broader because here it's included not only the soil regeneration,

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the increasing of biodiversity,

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the use of water in an efficient way,

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But it's also a place that wants to influence somehow the farmers around this farm.

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So it's also creating a network of farms which are somehow influenced and contaminated,

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let's say,

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by what we are doing here.

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So the scope of this project is to show practically and demonstrating

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that it's also possible to do another type of agriculture,

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which is not the ones that it was used to do before,

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before 2021,

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even if we are not in a particularly rich context in the sense that the neighborhoods are not like...

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rich farmers or whatever it's the the soil is also very poor so we are trying to demonstrate that starting from a very simplified context by including and adding complexity to the system we can also let's say take

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an advantage from the complexity let's say and being more resilient as well okay i want to unpack all of this and make it super easy to understand for people listening and for myself as well,

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you know?

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Yes.

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Um...

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So could you first start by telling us more about the place we are here?

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So what kind of farm is it?

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How big is it?

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Some of the crops it grows.

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And more specifically,

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describe how the farm was like when you first came here and you first got hired here as an agroecologist.

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Yes,

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sure.

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So,

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as I said,

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this farm was looking completely different before 2021 because there was just...

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Basically one or maximum two crops that were grown in this farm,

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which was like basically wheat and sunflower with intensive practices and conventional agriculture,

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like most of the farms around.

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And me and together with my team,

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which is called Marsilea,

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we started to redesign,

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completely redesign this farm.

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And first of all,

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what we did was to map what was the current situation,

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starting from the soil analysis,

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the assessment of the biodiversity,

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both in terms of fauna and in terms of the biology of the soil,

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with some measurements and analysis,

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in order to have like a starting point,

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like a T0 assessment.

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Based on the results of this analysis,

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we started to regenerate the soil throughout the inclusion of cover crops,

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the use of manure,

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which was coming from another animal farm which is close to this farm.

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And we also started to map the stakeholders and the people that could be somehow included in our process,

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like the seed seller.

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the animal farm that was able to provide the manure,

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also some people that could process our products.

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So all the stakeholders,

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and we made a list of potential stakeholders to include in our process of transformation.

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And so after this phase of assessment,

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we started to implement farming practices,

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like,

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as I said,

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the cover crops.

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So the idea was to plan the crops.

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in such a way that we're able to cover the soil as much as possible,

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basically.

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We also changed the way of tillage,

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in the sense that before it was used to do only,

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basically only plowing,

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so just plowing the soil.

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While in the next four years,

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we try to reduce or to eliminate,

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where possible,

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the plowing in order to increase minimum tillage or sod seeding.

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We also started to make a lot of research about the...

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best crop to include in this system.

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We tried,

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I think,

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25 different crops,

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maybe even more,

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in the last four years in this farm in order to,

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let's say,

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make a sort of brainstorming of all the crops that were possible to be grown here.

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And after a couple of years,

262
00:13:39.532 --> 00:13:47.173
we also started to implement some agroforestry systems in order to increase the complexity of the farm.

263
00:13:47.800 --> 00:13:50.760
we included some fruit trees like apricot,

264
00:13:50.920 --> 00:13:51.500
cherries,

265
00:13:52.520 --> 00:13:52.942
plums,

266
00:13:54.102 --> 00:13:54.801
hazelnuts,

267
00:13:55.340 --> 00:13:55.985
chestnuts,

268
00:13:56.539 --> 00:14:01.407
in order to test again which variety and which crops,

269
00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:03.547
which trees were more,

270
00:14:04.211 --> 00:14:04.571
let's say,

271
00:14:05.680 --> 00:14:09.086
adapted to this soil and the pedoclimatic conditions.

272
00:14:09.243 --> 00:14:09.461
Okay.

273
00:14:09.758 --> 00:14:15.461
Could you give us some examples of things you tried and why you decided to do things in a certain way?

274
00:14:16.289 --> 00:14:16.430
Yeah,

275
00:14:16.571 --> 00:14:16.774
sure.

276
00:14:17.348 --> 00:14:17.468
So,

277
00:14:19.150 --> 00:14:19.570
as I said,

278
00:14:19.590 --> 00:14:25.475
we tried many different crops and many different types of tillages and soil management.

279
00:14:27.959 --> 00:14:30.842
We tried both like spring crops,

280
00:14:32.123 --> 00:14:33.998
most of the time after cover crops.

281
00:14:34.748 --> 00:14:37.170
And we also tried winter crops.

282
00:14:37.404 --> 00:14:38.123
In general,

283
00:14:38.529 --> 00:14:42.076
now I can say that winter crops like wheat,

284
00:14:43.092 --> 00:14:43.732
spelt,

285
00:14:44.420 --> 00:14:44.857
barley,

286
00:14:45.779 --> 00:14:46.420
raygrass.

287
00:14:48.482 --> 00:14:48.742
oat,

288
00:14:49.623 --> 00:14:52.971
they are performing very well in these type of soils,

289
00:14:53.471 --> 00:14:56.354
especially like every year is different.

290
00:14:56.479 --> 00:15:00.002
So we cannot say that the winter cereals have

291
00:15:00.068 --> 00:15:04.848
to be sown in a certain date because then you don't know the type of weather that it's going to be.

292
00:15:05.887 --> 00:15:06.770
But in general,

293
00:15:07.051 --> 00:15:08.067
in this type of soil,

294
00:15:08.130 --> 00:15:13.450
it's better to seed the winters here at the beginning of the autumn.

295
00:15:13.551 --> 00:15:16.216
So let's say beginning of October,

296
00:15:17.059 --> 00:15:19.153
because afterwards it's starting to rain.

297
00:15:19.356 --> 00:15:20.919
And here in this soil,

298
00:15:20.966 --> 00:15:27.075
there is a lot of lime and this creates compaction and the air,

299
00:15:27.341 --> 00:15:27.450
it's...

300
00:15:27.852 --> 00:15:29.995
very difficult to penetrate into the soil.

301
00:15:30.456 --> 00:15:34.780
And since the roots of the plants need also air,

302
00:15:34.979 --> 00:15:36.624
not only water and nutrients,

303
00:15:36.678 --> 00:15:37.319
but also air,

304
00:15:37.585 --> 00:15:40.045
air is fundamental for the growth of the plant.

305
00:15:40.803 --> 00:15:44.381
If we create this compaction and these conditions,

306
00:15:45.006 --> 00:15:46.913
they would not grow properly.

307
00:15:47.288 --> 00:15:54.678
So we experience that it's better to seed the crops before the beginning of the autumn,

308
00:15:54.694 --> 00:15:55.022
let's say.

309
00:15:55.897 --> 00:15:57.256
So at the very beginning of the autumn.

310
00:15:58.136 --> 00:15:59.959
And this is a learning lesson,

311
00:16:00.299 --> 00:16:02.420
while there are other learning lessons,

312
00:16:02.421 --> 00:16:03.643
like for instance millet.

313
00:16:04.021 --> 00:16:06.846
It's a crop that here is performing very,

314
00:16:06.908 --> 00:16:07.369
very well.

315
00:16:07.643 --> 00:16:08.807
Like now it's the

316
00:16:09.791 --> 00:16:10.385
24th of July.

317
00:16:11.150 --> 00:16:12.471
We never irrigate.

318
00:16:12.807 --> 00:16:15.494
We are relying only on the water from the sky,

319
00:16:16.494 --> 00:16:16.994
on the rain,

320
00:16:17.338 --> 00:16:17.822
the rainfall.

321
00:16:18.432 --> 00:16:20.010
And if you look at the fields,

322
00:16:20.135 --> 00:16:20.994
they are very green.

323
00:16:21.400 --> 00:16:22.713
They are doing very well.

324
00:16:23.478 --> 00:16:25.869
and they are very clean from weeds,

325
00:16:26.385 --> 00:16:26.760
which are...

326
00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.883
kind of the biggest challenge for us.

327
00:16:31.783 --> 00:16:33.006
And yeah,

328
00:16:33.104 --> 00:16:33.385
millet,

329
00:16:33.807 --> 00:16:34.428
it's incredible.

330
00:16:34.467 --> 00:16:35.432
It's very rustic.

331
00:16:35.768 --> 00:16:37.151
It's very resilient.

332
00:16:37.971 --> 00:16:40.393
It's very low water demanding.

333
00:16:41.330 --> 00:16:42.393
So in this context,

334
00:16:42.479 --> 00:16:44.791
even if here we have very poor soils,

335
00:16:45.213 --> 00:16:46.463
it's performing very well.

336
00:16:47.213 --> 00:16:51.026
So this is another crop that we are selecting now and we are,

337
00:16:51.557 --> 00:16:51.963
let's say,

338
00:16:52.604 --> 00:16:55.432
creating a food chain of millet.

339
00:16:55.860 --> 00:16:56.040
Okay,

340
00:16:56.060 --> 00:17:01.826
so you're creating a new kind of supply chain with Millet because you realize this crop works really well here.

341
00:17:01.827 --> 00:17:03.549
So we need to make it work.

342
00:17:03.568 --> 00:17:04.592
We need to find buyers.

343
00:17:06.334 --> 00:17:06.592
Yes.

344
00:17:08.310 --> 00:17:13.912
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345
00:17:14.365 --> 00:17:15.006
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346
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347
00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:20.771
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348
00:17:21.224 --> 00:17:22.099
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349
00:17:22.604 --> 00:17:27.469
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350
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351
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352
00:17:36.118 --> 00:17:39.618
You mentioned all of these winter crops that work really well here in your system.

353
00:17:40.586 --> 00:17:43.586
How does a rotation look like with these winter crops?

354
00:17:43.711 --> 00:17:49.086
Do you plant another cash crop in the the summer or do you how does it work okay so um

355
00:17:50.548 --> 00:17:55.194
Let's assume that we make a four year rotations more or less.

356
00:17:55.674 --> 00:17:58.315
The first year we put a winter wheat,

357
00:17:59.373 --> 00:18:00.780
a winter crop that can be wheat,

358
00:18:00.858 --> 00:18:01.397
for instance.

359
00:18:01.576 --> 00:18:05.959
So we seed in October and we harvest more or less now.

360
00:18:06.045 --> 00:18:06.537
So in,

361
00:18:06.865 --> 00:18:07.147
let's say,

362
00:18:07.522 --> 00:18:08.381
half of July.

363
00:18:09.506 --> 00:18:10.490
And then after,

364
00:18:11.022 --> 00:18:16.912
or we prepare the field to the winter cover crop that we saw at the beginning of September.

365
00:18:17.647 --> 00:18:18.662
or maybe we put a...

366
00:18:19.168 --> 00:18:43.209
a summer cover crop of sudan grass so it's a sorghum together with bean okay which is used as a cover crop to integrate soil organic matter into the soil so you don't harvest you would plan that after you harvest since in july and so do you have that cover crops during the summer months exactly in september you terminate

367
00:18:43.210 --> 00:18:47.818
and then you terminate yes and we put a winter cover crop that It's a complete...

368
00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:50.990
composed by maybe veg together with fava bean,

369
00:18:51.728 --> 00:18:52.269
mustard,

370
00:18:54.550 --> 00:18:55.370
tillage radish,

371
00:18:56.449 --> 00:19:02.949
and maybe it can be also cereal included in this mix.

372
00:19:02.950 --> 00:19:08.870
It can be barley or raygrass or depends on what we find in the territory,

373
00:19:09.027 --> 00:19:09.308
let's say.

374
00:19:09.558 --> 00:19:12.870
Trying to have as much diversity as possible to improve the soil conditions.

375
00:19:13.308 --> 00:19:14.792
A couple of questions.

376
00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:15.261
First of all,

377
00:19:15.355 --> 00:19:17.027
you said sometimes you will plant the...

378
00:19:17.536 --> 00:19:39.204
summer cover crop yes sometimes you will just prepare the soil and wait for some september what makes the difference between the two options in your decision mostly if there is the soil condition if there are the soil conditions we plant a summer cover crop like if there is enough humidity into the soil then we we seed also a summer cover crop otherwise

379
00:19:39.235 --> 00:19:44.704
we just wait to the to the next crop in in autumn or early or late summer okay Okay.

380
00:19:45.020 --> 00:19:45.201
Okay,

381
00:19:45.301 --> 00:19:48.927
but I guess that's not ideal because then you have your bare soil from mid-July to

382
00:19:49.349 --> 00:19:50.271
September. Exactly,

383
00:19:50.329 --> 00:19:51.872
we try to avoid that.

384
00:19:52.454 --> 00:19:59.864
Or what we are doing now is to broadcast clover into the winter cereal.

385
00:20:00.588 --> 00:20:01.950
Like for instance,

386
00:20:02.370 --> 00:20:07.157
let's assume that we seed wheat in autumn,

387
00:20:07.555 --> 00:20:09.157
then in the next early spring,

388
00:20:09.235 --> 00:20:10.938
like in March of the next year,

389
00:20:11.563 --> 00:20:13.024
we trans-seed.

390
00:20:13.665 --> 00:20:13.782
Yeah,

391
00:20:13.844 --> 00:20:19.422
so you go over the fields with the machine and you kind of broadcast,

392
00:20:19.469 --> 00:20:22.532
so you just spread seeds without having to go into the soil.

393
00:20:22.547 --> 00:20:23.516
So you just spread them,

394
00:20:23.766 --> 00:20:27.735
so you have a clover that starts growing underneath your wheat.

395
00:20:27.891 --> 00:20:28.219
Yeah,

396
00:20:28.251 --> 00:20:29.360
you understood correctly.

397
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:31.021
And then in this way,

398
00:20:31.261 --> 00:20:35.265
we avoid the soil to be bare during the summer,

399
00:20:36.047 --> 00:20:39.492
while we provide nitrogen throughout the use of clover.

400
00:20:40.148 --> 00:20:41.054
And in this way,

401
00:20:41.109 --> 00:20:46.820
we also have different profits and different sources of income because we have the wheat,

402
00:20:47.070 --> 00:20:48.414
so we get profit from the wheat.

403
00:20:49.242 --> 00:20:53.726
We can decide harvesting the seeds of clover,

404
00:20:54.117 --> 00:20:55.648
or we use as a manure,

405
00:20:56.007 --> 00:20:56.601
green manure,

406
00:20:58.289 --> 00:20:58.867
to mulch.

407
00:20:59.552 --> 00:21:17.514
the the clover into the soil to use as a cover crop and we also have the the honey from the bees coming from the flowers of the clover so at the end we have three different products that are different sources of income and maybe the lowest income is coming from the wheat which is probably

408
00:21:17.593 --> 00:21:24.639
considered the main crop let's say because the seed of it's very highly profit okay so why not do that every time

409
00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:25.280
Like you said,

410
00:21:25.401 --> 00:21:26.482
sometimes we will do that.

411
00:21:26.862 --> 00:21:28.823
Why not do it every time if it's so interesting?

412
00:21:28.964 --> 00:21:29.304
Actually,

413
00:21:29.362 --> 00:21:34.230
now we are introducing this practice in all the fields of winter cereal.

414
00:21:34.667 --> 00:21:35.073
Before,

415
00:21:35.308 --> 00:21:39.331
we were used to do that just in a small part of the farm,

416
00:21:39.456 --> 00:21:43.097
just to test which was the best variety of clover,

417
00:21:43.581 --> 00:21:46.128
which was the best period of sowing for the clover,

418
00:21:46.284 --> 00:21:50.644
because sometimes we try to seed it in autumn together with the winter cereal,

419
00:21:51.394 --> 00:21:53.894
while others we made intercropping like

420
00:21:54.716 --> 00:21:56.757
seeding the clover in early spring,

421
00:21:56.957 --> 00:21:58.017
like in March or February.

422
00:21:59.338 --> 00:22:02.759
And so we started to make some tests,

423
00:22:02.838 --> 00:22:05.939
but now I think we came out with our solution,

424
00:22:06.181 --> 00:22:06.478
let's say.

425
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:07.056
All right.

426
00:22:07.681 --> 00:22:10.502
So what happens once you harvest the wheat in July?

427
00:22:11.627 --> 00:22:12.205
What happens then?

428
00:22:12.283 --> 00:22:14.424
Your clover is still growing for the rest of the summer?

429
00:22:14.595 --> 00:22:15.627
Then in that case,

430
00:22:15.642 --> 00:22:17.408
you're not planting a summer cover crop.

431
00:22:17.455 --> 00:22:18.408
That's your summer cover crop,

432
00:22:18.486 --> 00:22:18.595
right?

433
00:22:18.627 --> 00:22:20.002
That's our summer cover crop,

434
00:22:20.314 --> 00:22:20.720
exactly.

435
00:22:20.845 --> 00:22:22.127
And if you look at the fields now,

436
00:22:22.658 --> 00:22:23.205
when you go out,

437
00:22:23.283 --> 00:22:23.580
you can

438
00:22:23.944 --> 00:22:26.246
You can see the clover on the soil,

439
00:22:26.406 --> 00:22:27.469
which is now dry.

440
00:22:28.027 --> 00:22:34.355
And I think that maybe next week we will harvest the seed of clover because since it was a rainy spring,

441
00:22:34.918 --> 00:22:36.754
the clover was performing very well.

442
00:22:37.019 --> 00:22:38.480
So it grows very a lot.

443
00:22:39.137 --> 00:22:46.933
And we are now able to harvest the clover after harvesting the winters here,

444
00:22:47.012 --> 00:22:49.043
like a couple of weeks ago.

445
00:22:49.433 --> 00:22:49.683
Okay.

446
00:22:49.684 --> 00:22:50.074
So it was.

447
00:22:50.829 --> 00:22:52.651
How do you harvest clovers?

448
00:22:53.071 --> 00:22:54.112
It's quite a small plant,

449
00:22:54.171 --> 00:22:54.351
right?

450
00:22:54.352 --> 00:22:56.936
So you have some kind of special machine to harvest,

451
00:22:56.956 --> 00:22:58.577
to cut it without killing the plants?

452
00:22:58.718 --> 00:22:59.194
How does that work?

453
00:22:59.515 --> 00:22:59.679
Yeah,

454
00:22:59.757 --> 00:23:00.179
basically,

455
00:23:01.601 --> 00:23:08.663
it's better to have relatively high winter cereals crops because when you harvest the winter cereals,

456
00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:14.179
you have to stay above the ground not to disturb the clover.

457
00:23:14.429 --> 00:23:19.304
So you harvest the winter cereals relatively high from the soil.

458
00:23:20.096 --> 00:23:25.480
And then you go a second time with the same machinery,

459
00:23:25.723 --> 00:23:27.203
harvesting machinery of the wheat.

460
00:23:27.363 --> 00:23:29.223
You can harvest also the clover.

461
00:23:29.926 --> 00:23:32.465
Just regulating the machinery,

462
00:23:32.551 --> 00:23:32.809
let's say,

463
00:23:32.810 --> 00:23:35.027
but it's the same machinery with a different regulation.

464
00:23:35.348 --> 00:23:35.574
Okay.

465
00:23:35.793 --> 00:23:37.949
So you don't have to buy another machine.

466
00:23:38.152 --> 00:23:40.074
And once you've harvested the clover,

467
00:23:40.449 --> 00:23:41.074
it grows back?

468
00:23:41.152 --> 00:23:43.184
You can keep it as a cover crop for your summer?

469
00:23:44.543 --> 00:23:44.840
Actually,

470
00:23:44.841 --> 00:23:47.449
it depends on the type of clover you seed.

471
00:23:49.057 --> 00:23:49.979
In our case,

472
00:23:50.199 --> 00:23:54.043
we tested also the pluriannual clover,

473
00:23:54.383 --> 00:23:56.008
and in that case you could do that,

474
00:23:56.141 --> 00:23:56.742
so you could,

475
00:23:57.024 --> 00:23:57.305
let's say,

476
00:23:57.367 --> 00:23:58.805
keep the clover over time.

477
00:23:59.266 --> 00:24:04.211
But since summers are very hot and dry in the last period,

478
00:24:05.461 --> 00:24:09.461
usually it doesn't grow very well in summer,

479
00:24:09.664 --> 00:24:13.149
so after harvesting it doesn't grow a lot of biomass.

480
00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:15.543
So we prefer to use annual crops.

481
00:24:15.562 --> 00:24:16.723
So after harvesting,

482
00:24:16.764 --> 00:24:21.387
we prefer to reseed the next year instead of keeping the same plants.

483
00:24:21.906 --> 00:24:22.031
Yeah,

484
00:24:22.086 --> 00:24:22.328
okay.

485
00:24:22.469 --> 00:24:25.875
But what I mean is that you said that you're going to harvest it next week already.

486
00:24:26.555 --> 00:24:27.812
We're only at the end of July.

487
00:24:27.953 --> 00:24:32.141
So what happens then until September when you plant your winter cover crop?

488
00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:32.484
Yeah,

489
00:24:32.531 --> 00:24:33.234
in that case,

490
00:24:33.438 --> 00:24:35.688
we keep the residues,

491
00:24:35.781 --> 00:24:36.078
let's say,

492
00:24:36.156 --> 00:24:36.781
into the soil.

493
00:24:37.156 --> 00:24:39.406
So it prevents soil erosion.

494
00:24:40.062 --> 00:24:42.672
and then in September we till

495
00:24:42.876 --> 00:24:43.377
the soil,

496
00:24:44.058 --> 00:24:46.142
trying not to do deep ploughing,

497
00:24:46.283 --> 00:24:47.543
but we do minimum tillage.

498
00:24:47.566 --> 00:24:51.668
So the nitrogen that was provided by the leguminous,

499
00:24:51.730 --> 00:24:52.730
in this case clover,

500
00:24:53.816 --> 00:24:58.105
it's kept in the first layer of the soil and it's useful for the next crop.

501
00:24:58.941 --> 00:25:00.004
How do you do that kind of tillage?

502
00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:05.301
So that it doesn't go too deep and it doesn't damage too much the soil and the microbiology.

503
00:25:05.320 --> 00:25:09.664
Do you have a special machine for that or you regulate it in a way that it really does the minimum?

504
00:25:09.742 --> 00:25:10.203
How does it work?

505
00:25:10.219 --> 00:25:10.398
Right.

506
00:25:10.781 --> 00:25:13.266
So if we can,

507
00:25:13.422 --> 00:25:14.203
it's not a rule,

508
00:25:14.242 --> 00:25:14.859
but if we can,

509
00:25:14.906 --> 00:25:17.719
we try not to reverse the soil layers.

510
00:25:17.844 --> 00:25:20.109
Even if we are doing the tillage in the first,

511
00:25:20.328 --> 00:25:20.578
let's say,

512
00:25:20.703 --> 00:25:21.609
10 centimeters.

513
00:25:22.344 --> 00:25:24.547
What we do is to try to work vertically.

514
00:25:24.766 --> 00:25:27.812
So not reversing the layers of the soil.

515
00:25:28.048 --> 00:25:30.150
But if you till the soil,

516
00:25:31.232 --> 00:25:33.114
let's say vertically with a disc,

517
00:25:33.372 --> 00:25:33.833
for instance,

518
00:25:33.834 --> 00:25:34.696
we use discs.

519
00:25:35.415 --> 00:25:35.997
In that way,

520
00:25:36.298 --> 00:25:40.079
you avoid the reversing of the soil layers.

521
00:25:40.743 --> 00:25:46.329
And then that helps to keep all the nutrients and the nitrogen in particular in the first layer,

522
00:25:46.501 --> 00:25:46.814
let's say.

523
00:25:48.454 --> 00:25:48.564
Yeah,

524
00:25:50.064 --> 00:25:51.095
it's complex because,

525
00:25:51.767 --> 00:25:52.126
of course,

526
00:25:52.157 --> 00:25:54.861
you need to have the perfect conditions for the next crop.

527
00:25:55.112 --> 00:26:13.537
but at the same time you don't want to disturb too much the soil so it's a compromise between those and every time we make decisions we don't think only about the profit of the crop itself but also the indirect causes that that operation or that action has

528
00:26:13.678 --> 00:26:24.193
on the environment yeah so we kind of make a sort of integrated analysis with plus and minus considering all the factors and we do okay if you do plowing

529
00:26:24.756 --> 00:26:28.437
We probably have cleaner fields in terms of weeds,

530
00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:30.698
but at the same time we are losing nitrogen.

531
00:26:31.476 --> 00:26:33.659
While if we don't reverse the layers,

532
00:26:34.339 --> 00:26:35.355
we have more nitrogen,

533
00:26:36.019 --> 00:26:39.159
we can prevent the weeds a bit less than the deep ploughing.

534
00:26:39.238 --> 00:26:43.636
So we make this kind of analysis and then we take the decisions.

535
00:26:43.855 --> 00:26:45.714
But considering all the factors,

536
00:26:45.886 --> 00:26:46.761
also environmental,

537
00:26:46.995 --> 00:26:47.620
economical,

538
00:26:48.339 --> 00:26:52.308
and let's say also in terms of...

539
00:26:53.548 --> 00:26:57.874
It's a message that we want to provide to the external stakeholders.

540
00:26:57.894 --> 00:26:59.113
You need a lot of flexibility.

541
00:26:59.114 --> 00:27:01.937
You need to be able to constantly analyze the conditions,

542
00:27:01.952 --> 00:27:02.718
the situation,

543
00:27:03.038 --> 00:27:05.484
and adapt your planning based on that.

544
00:27:05.485 --> 00:27:05.937
You can't say,

545
00:27:06.038 --> 00:27:07.241
here's my plan for the whole year.

546
00:27:07.320 --> 00:27:08.241
This is what we're going to do.

547
00:27:08.601 --> 00:27:10.281
You have to constantly change things.

548
00:27:10.546 --> 00:27:10.765
Yes,

549
00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:18.546
and another thing that comes to my mind is that when we plan the crop rotation of every year,

550
00:27:18.734 --> 00:27:19.046
basically,

551
00:27:20.171 --> 00:27:21.312
what we have to consider...

552
00:27:21.672 --> 00:27:25.095
It's also the regulation for organic certification.

553
00:27:25.296 --> 00:27:25.415
So

554
00:27:26.536 --> 00:27:28.138
I will tell you more about that.

555
00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:29.298
But in general,

556
00:27:29.380 --> 00:27:30.763
what we consider is to have,

557
00:27:30.982 --> 00:27:31.380
as I say,

558
00:27:31.404 --> 00:27:31.904
the three,

559
00:27:32.325 --> 00:27:32.583
let's say,

560
00:27:32.661 --> 00:27:34.364
parties of the crop.

561
00:27:34.404 --> 00:27:35.544
So the high risk,

562
00:27:35.724 --> 00:27:36.263
medium risk,

563
00:27:36.364 --> 00:27:36.904
low risk.

564
00:27:38.489 --> 00:27:38.896
Plus,

565
00:27:39.083 --> 00:27:41.411
we have to combine the market needs.

566
00:27:41.927 --> 00:27:43.427
So if we grow,

567
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:44.161
for instance,

568
00:27:44.536 --> 00:27:46.036
raygrass and we do,

569
00:27:46.318 --> 00:27:46.677
I don't know,

570
00:27:46.739 --> 00:27:48.755
like 30 tons of raygrass.

571
00:27:49.204 --> 00:27:54.451
It's probably not something that we can sell easily because there is not a lot of market of raygrass nowadays,

572
00:27:55.568 --> 00:27:56.510
even if it's organic.

573
00:27:56.811 --> 00:27:59.490
So we have to combine the market request,

574
00:28:01.014 --> 00:28:03.318
the pedoclimatic conditions of our farm,

575
00:28:04.115 --> 00:28:06.600
plus the organic certification.

576
00:28:06.865 --> 00:28:09.647
So there are many factors that influence our choice,

577
00:28:10.037 --> 00:28:10.740
and it's not easy.

578
00:28:10.865 --> 00:28:18.131
So what we do is to make a four-year plan because we know where we want to go in four years,

579
00:28:18.193 --> 00:28:18.631
more or less.

580
00:28:19.296 --> 00:28:24.743
But then we keep a bit open in the sense that we choose the family of crop,

581
00:28:25.063 --> 00:28:26.524
but maybe not the specific crop,

582
00:28:26.743 --> 00:28:30.305
because the specific crop within that family depends on the market,

583
00:28:30.368 --> 00:28:32.188
depends on the soil conditions,

584
00:28:32.290 --> 00:28:34.087
depends on other factors.

585
00:28:34.415 --> 00:28:38.821
So we make a first broad plan and then we go deeper once it's,

586
00:28:39.243 --> 00:28:39.477
let's say,

587
00:28:39.977 --> 00:28:42.493
the seeding time is closer.

588
00:28:42.915 --> 00:28:43.133
Okay,

589
00:28:43.665 --> 00:28:43.805
yeah,

590
00:28:43.899 --> 00:28:44.055
yeah.

591
00:28:44.576 --> 00:28:45.217
Very interesting.

592
00:28:45.337 --> 00:28:45.738
Complex,

593
00:28:45.818 --> 00:28:46.679
but very interesting.

594
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:48.160
Let's get back to our rotation,

595
00:28:48.199 --> 00:28:50.081
because we're barely one year into it.

596
00:28:50.101 --> 00:28:51.363
You said it's a four-year rotation.

597
00:28:51.382 --> 00:28:51.503
But

598
00:28:52.687 --> 00:28:54.609
I love that we can really get deep into it,

599
00:28:54.610 --> 00:28:54.804
you know,

600
00:28:54.828 --> 00:28:59.031
and ask the small questions to really understand how these things work,

601
00:28:59.148 --> 00:28:59.390
right?

602
00:28:59.648 --> 00:28:59.812
Yeah.

603
00:28:59.968 --> 00:29:00.210
For me,

604
00:29:00.273 --> 00:29:01.445
this is fairly new.

605
00:29:01.492 --> 00:29:03.539
I got into this topic a couple of years ago,

606
00:29:03.648 --> 00:29:05.382
and I've been learning first on the surface,

607
00:29:05.383 --> 00:29:07.195
and then more and more into the detail.

608
00:29:07.226 --> 00:29:09.007
And that's where it's getting interesting now,

609
00:29:09.023 --> 00:29:10.117
is to really understand it.

610
00:29:10.152 --> 00:29:11.653
technical detail of all of this.

611
00:29:11.654 --> 00:29:13.917
So I love that we can have this conversation today.

612
00:29:13.918 --> 00:29:14.036
Yeah,

613
00:29:14.055 --> 00:29:15.417
yeah,

614
00:29:15.917 --> 00:29:16.237
yeah.

615
00:29:16.238 --> 00:29:16.397
It's a...

616
00:29:16.398 --> 00:29:19.542
So let's get back here into the crop rotation.

617
00:29:20.721 --> 00:29:22.862
In this case that we're describing here,

618
00:29:22.964 --> 00:29:24.628
so you planted your winter wheat.

619
00:29:25.448 --> 00:29:27.034
And around March,

620
00:29:27.143 --> 00:29:30.034
you broadcasted clover into the soil.

621
00:29:30.768 --> 00:29:31.300
Then come

622
00:29:31.831 --> 00:29:33.878
July, when is the right time you harvest,

623
00:29:34.175 --> 00:29:34.393
right?

624
00:29:34.518 --> 00:29:34.753
First,

625
00:29:34.754 --> 00:29:35.518
you harvest the wheat.

626
00:29:35.908 --> 00:29:50.964
yeah then you harvest the clover yes then you leave the residue on the floor so at least it covers your soil during the rest of the summer that your soil is not too exposed to the sun exactly and you have some organic matter to feed the soil microbiology and all of that yes in

627
00:29:51.222 --> 00:29:59.886
september you do a tillage but like as light as possible yes right and then you plant your winter

628
00:30:00.569 --> 00:30:00.809
Yes,

629
00:30:00.989 --> 00:30:01.409
exactly.

630
00:30:01.889 --> 00:30:02.469
And as I said,

631
00:30:03.212 --> 00:30:09.880
we never use a singular crop within the mixture of cover crops because every field is different.

632
00:30:09.934 --> 00:30:11.341
And even within the field,

633
00:30:11.356 --> 00:30:17.466
we have a lot of heterogeneity in the sense that there are parts of the field which is more sandy,

634
00:30:18.122 --> 00:30:20.309
other parts which is more clay soil.

635
00:30:20.591 --> 00:30:22.794
So we have more humid soils.

636
00:30:22.872 --> 00:30:29.481
So with a mixture of different species and different crops within the same mix,

637
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:53.928
the same number crop let's say we have a natural adaptation of the different conditions within the same field all right what do you mean by that is that you will plant the same really diverse mix everywhere yes at that period but it will react differently depending on the natural condition so you let exactly nature decide exactly yeah that's what we mean with working with nature in the sense that nature

638
00:30:53.991 --> 00:30:58.881
it's it's perfect i think and they have some mechanisms of compensation

639
00:30:59.332 --> 00:31:01.773
of lack of nutrients,

640
00:31:01.912 --> 00:31:03.033
which is incredible.

641
00:31:03.152 --> 00:31:08.074
So if we have a part of the field which is lacking of nitrogen,

642
00:31:08.113 --> 00:31:08.715
for instance,

643
00:31:08.816 --> 00:31:09.496
in that part,

644
00:31:09.597 --> 00:31:22.558
we will have more leguminous crop growing better than others because they naturally want to compensate this disequilibrium and providing nitrogen naturally.

645
00:31:23.683 --> 00:31:25.543
And if we wouldn't include...

646
00:31:26.436 --> 00:31:27.617
leguminous in our field,

647
00:31:27.677 --> 00:31:32.502
we wouldn't have this kind of adaptation to that specific soil condition.

648
00:31:32.662 --> 00:31:32.943
Yeah.

649
00:31:33.662 --> 00:31:36.564
So depending on the differences and the lackness,

650
00:31:36.666 --> 00:31:37.049
let's say,

651
00:31:37.767 --> 00:31:38.666
within our field,

652
00:31:39.509 --> 00:31:48.439
we work with nature to restore and replace the nutrients and to take the equilibrium within the field.

653
00:31:48.611 --> 00:31:48.783
Yeah.

654
00:31:48.784 --> 00:31:49.002
Okay?

655
00:31:49.158 --> 00:31:53.580
So that's why we decided to do a mixture of different species within the cover crop.

656
00:31:53.830 --> 00:31:53.986
Yeah.

657
00:31:55.049 --> 00:31:55.252
Then...

658
00:31:55.688 --> 00:31:58.210
Let's imagine that we are in April,

659
00:31:58.511 --> 00:32:03.036
then it's time to destroy and to terminate our cover crop.

660
00:32:04.157 --> 00:32:07.962
And we have different ways of terminating this cover crop.

661
00:32:08.978 --> 00:32:10.720
We have a roller crimper,

662
00:32:11.064 --> 00:32:15.767
which is like a roll with some bended parts,

663
00:32:15.907 --> 00:32:16.267
let's say,

664
00:32:16.782 --> 00:32:21.157
that it's able to terminate the cover crop without disturbing the soil.

665
00:32:21.439 --> 00:32:22.079
Basically we eat

666
00:32:22.188 --> 00:32:44.347
don't even touch the soil we just you kind of roll it down it's a massive roll and it goes over that your cover crop it kind of crash bends it down in a way that and crash and crush different uh yeah so bending and crashing the the core crop yeah killing the plants killing the plant yeah but in this way all the nutrients are not lost but they are kept into the soil and

667
00:32:44.456 --> 00:32:51.472
at the same time they don't regrow okay because it's uh the the plant are crashed in maybe two or three different parts.

668
00:32:51.760 --> 00:33:16.305
okay so the stem for instance of the crop of the the veg or the ray grass or whatever we use are crashed in different pieces let's say okay so sufficiently so that it doesn't regrow the plant is killed exactly but the roots stay in the soil the nutrition that it gave all of the the soil around the roots is still there and the rest of the biomass is on the floor and it just decomposes it slowly.

669
00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:17.133
Exactly.

670
00:33:17.321 --> 00:33:17.680
Exactly.

671
00:33:18.086 --> 00:33:18.243
Or...

672
00:33:18.716 --> 00:33:22.861
If the biomass maybe it's too much or if the crop afterwards,

673
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:26.384
the cash crop that we want to plant after the cover crop,

674
00:33:27.165 --> 00:33:30.470
it's too much negatively influenced,

675
00:33:30.509 --> 00:33:30.806
let's say,

676
00:33:31.111 --> 00:33:32.650
by the biomass of the core crop.

677
00:33:33.033 --> 00:33:33.650
In that case,

678
00:33:33.689 --> 00:33:40.962
maybe we destroy the core crop with a different way in the sense that we crash,

679
00:33:41.337 --> 00:33:44.369
we destroy with a kind of crunch,

680
00:33:44.728 --> 00:33:46.056
maybe the core crop.

681
00:33:46.856 --> 00:33:48.177
And we integrate,

682
00:33:48.278 --> 00:33:49.999
again with a minimum tillage,

683
00:33:50.380 --> 00:33:51.700
the cover crop into the soil.

684
00:33:52.782 --> 00:33:57.349
And we have to wait about two weeks before growing and seeding,

685
00:33:57.450 --> 00:33:57.708
let's say,

686
00:33:58.130 --> 00:33:59.646
the cash crop afterwards.

687
00:33:59.872 --> 00:34:00.068
Okay.

688
00:34:00.349 --> 00:34:01.153
I guess when you do that,

689
00:34:01.193 --> 00:34:02.966
your soil is a little bit cleaner.

690
00:34:03.294 --> 00:34:03.528
Yes.

691
00:34:03.732 --> 00:34:03.935
Right?

692
00:34:03.966 --> 00:34:05.622
It's easier to come and seed into it.

693
00:34:05.623 --> 00:34:06.482
For certain crops,

694
00:34:06.997 --> 00:34:07.403
it's better.

695
00:34:07.638 --> 00:34:09.872
Especially if we have a small seed,

696
00:34:10.935 --> 00:34:14.310
we need to have a cleaner and thinner soil.

697
00:34:14.622 --> 00:34:16.138
because otherwise it's not going to...

698
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:17.300
grow properly.

699
00:34:17.541 --> 00:34:17.740
Okay.

700
00:34:18.621 --> 00:34:18.740
So,

701
00:34:19.201 --> 00:34:19.361
yeah,

702
00:34:19.422 --> 00:34:20.422
depending on the season,

703
00:34:20.461 --> 00:34:21.883
depending on the soil conditions,

704
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.820
also the humidity of the soil,

705
00:34:24.562 --> 00:34:29.922
it really much influences the decision of how we want to terminate the cover crop.

706
00:34:30.265 --> 00:34:30.461
Okay.

707
00:34:30.586 --> 00:34:30.843
Okay.

708
00:34:31.422 --> 00:34:33.476
Let's pick one as an example so we can continue our,

709
00:34:33.477 --> 00:34:33.617
you know,

710
00:34:33.618 --> 00:34:34.211
our rotation.

711
00:34:34.367 --> 00:34:34.508
Yeah,

712
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:35.367
okay.

713
00:34:35.523 --> 00:34:38.851
Let's imagine that we want to seed the cowpea,

714
00:34:39.008 --> 00:34:39.586
for instance,

715
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:44.429
which is also subsidized by the cap,

716
00:34:44.742 --> 00:34:46.023
especially here in Piedmont.

717
00:34:47.209 --> 00:34:51.173
in this region because it's considered like a vegetable,

718
00:34:51.212 --> 00:34:53.056
like an orchard crop basically,

719
00:34:53.177 --> 00:34:54.880
so it's more subsidized than others.

720
00:34:56.036 --> 00:34:59.942
And there is a market in organic sector for

721
00:35:00.040 --> 00:35:20.703
this crop so it's it's something that we are testing and growing the last two years so let's imagine that we want to grow cowpea so we terminate in this case it's a relatively big seed so we can use the roller crimper so we destroy we terminate the cover crop with roller crimper and

722
00:35:20.766 --> 00:35:29.250
then we we can also sod seed the cowpea within the cover crop because we don't need to

723
00:35:29.836 --> 00:35:34.799
touch the soil or to prepare the soil more in depth than that.

724
00:35:35.736 --> 00:35:37.959
So yeah,

725
00:35:38.459 --> 00:35:40.959
let's imagine that we do the cowpea.

726
00:35:41.436 --> 00:35:42.022
In this way,

727
00:35:42.037 --> 00:35:50.428
the core crop is also able to keep the humidity of the soil in our field so we don't even need to irrigate the soil because of this humidity.

728
00:35:51.225 --> 00:35:55.068
It also helps a lot to prevent the weed growing,

729
00:35:55.381 --> 00:35:55.756
basically.

730
00:35:56.881 --> 00:35:57.803
So that helps a lot.

731
00:36:00.181 --> 00:36:03.546
And it's nice because we are collaborating with our neighbor.

732
00:36:03.784 --> 00:36:05.468
We don't have the sod seeding machine,

733
00:36:05.749 --> 00:36:12.530
but we collaborate with this farm that gives us the sod seeding machine and we share this machinery.

734
00:36:13.077 --> 00:36:13.811
What seeding machine?

735
00:36:13.858 --> 00:36:14.038
Sorry.

736
00:36:14.452 --> 00:36:15.343
The sod seeding,

737
00:36:15.389 --> 00:36:19.718
it's a machinery that it's able to sow the seed without touching the soil.

738
00:36:20.264 --> 00:36:27.374
So it's basically a machinery that puts the seed into the ground without touching the soil too much.

739
00:36:27.686 --> 00:36:28.186
so the reason

740
00:36:28.724 --> 00:36:31.985
like a disc that opens the field and it's able to...

741
00:36:33.084 --> 00:36:37.846
It just makes a small cut into the cover crop and the soil.

742
00:36:38.002 --> 00:36:38.448
Exactly.

743
00:36:38.449 --> 00:36:41.963
It just deposits the seeds and then comes and closes it back out.

744
00:36:42.010 --> 00:36:42.409
Exactly.

745
00:36:42.963 --> 00:36:44.713
So it's a special machinery that,

746
00:36:45.666 --> 00:36:46.151
again,

747
00:36:46.791 --> 00:36:56.088
it's able to have the minimum disturbance of the soil while allowing the seed to grow properly because it's put exactly into the soil.

748
00:36:56.135 --> 00:36:56.651
and what the

749
00:36:57.552 --> 00:37:00.716
allows the seeds to grow is the contact between the soil and the seed.

750
00:37:01.155 --> 00:37:06.103
So if there is not enough contact between the soil and the seed,

751
00:37:06.321 --> 00:37:07.603
the seed doesn't grow.

752
00:37:08.040 --> 00:37:12.048
And this way creates the perfect condition for the seed to grow.

753
00:37:13.774 --> 00:37:14.274
Let's keep going.

754
00:37:15.056 --> 00:37:17.446
So we are just at the second year.

755
00:37:17.665 --> 00:37:21.603
So once we grow the cowpea,

756
00:37:22.040 --> 00:37:26.681
then let's say we seed in the beginning of May.

757
00:37:27.764 --> 00:37:33.570
And that's also perfect because it allows the cover crop before to grow enough biomass.

758
00:37:33.808 --> 00:37:34.749
But at the same time,

759
00:37:35.433 --> 00:37:38.574
it's the perfect time for terminating the cover crop because it's flowering.

760
00:37:38.832 --> 00:37:41.957
And there is a perfect combination between carbon and nitrogen.

761
00:37:42.761 --> 00:37:46.378
And that helps because otherwise the energy,

762
00:37:46.503 --> 00:37:46.941
let's say,

763
00:37:47.128 --> 00:37:49.863
that we would need to to degradate,

764
00:37:49.925 --> 00:37:53.957
let's say the cover crop would be too much if there was too much carbon.

765
00:37:54.516 --> 00:38:11.677
while at the same time there is enough nitrogen so there is a good balance between carbon nitrogen then after let's say in september we harvest the cowpea and then after the cowpea we might see

766
00:38:13.755 --> 00:38:23.412
another winter wheat which is different from the previous one or we can also do linen for instance which is a particular crop

767
00:38:24.080 --> 00:38:29.907
because it's very robust and very low water demanding.

768
00:38:31.086 --> 00:38:32.352
And this is something that we see,

769
00:38:32.852 --> 00:38:33.149
let's say,

770
00:38:33.250 --> 00:38:34.414
at the middle of

771
00:38:36.555 --> 00:38:37.617
October, more or less,

772
00:38:37.696 --> 00:38:38.555
so in autumn.

773
00:38:38.797 --> 00:38:40.274
And we harvest in

774
00:38:40.961 --> 00:38:43.352
August. Let's say it's a very long cycle crop,

775
00:38:43.555 --> 00:38:43.867
actually.

776
00:38:44.899 --> 00:38:46.024
And it's very nice.

777
00:38:46.539 --> 00:38:47.571
It has these very,

778
00:38:47.602 --> 00:38:49.930
very nice blue flowers.

779
00:38:50.602 --> 00:38:51.571
and um

780
00:38:51.932 --> 00:38:52.313
Also,

781
00:38:52.813 --> 00:38:53.354
in terms of,

782
00:38:53.454 --> 00:38:53.733
let's say,

783
00:38:53.874 --> 00:38:54.854
landscape creation,

784
00:38:54.896 --> 00:38:55.815
it's a very nice crop.

785
00:38:56.776 --> 00:38:57.577
And again,

786
00:38:57.578 --> 00:38:59.198
it doesn't need a lot of nutrients,

787
00:38:59.300 --> 00:39:01.144
so a very low-input crop.

788
00:39:01.862 --> 00:39:03.847
And that's a very nice choice,

789
00:39:03.886 --> 00:39:04.284
I would say.

790
00:39:05.206 --> 00:39:06.487
And then in the last year,

791
00:39:06.589 --> 00:39:08.792
maybe we can put some faba bean,

792
00:39:09.323 --> 00:39:12.604
which is used for producing seed for a seed company.

793
00:39:13.229 --> 00:39:17.495
Or we give it as a forage to our neighbor.

794
00:39:18.245 --> 00:39:21.417
there is an animal farm which is buying food

795
00:39:21.668 --> 00:39:43.205
the fava bean and we also create this sort of circular economy also in the in the territory okay plus fava beans are a legume it's a legume yeah so it also helps yeah your soil nitrogen yeah yeah exactly and so you mentioned that there's also some animals and some some pastures in your different fields

796
00:39:43.595 --> 00:39:43.845
do you

797
00:39:44.968 --> 00:39:51.695
Is it just a separate thing where you have certain parts of the farm that are used for pastures or do you integrate animals into your rotation?

798
00:39:51.754 --> 00:39:52.035
Actually,

799
00:39:52.117 --> 00:39:53.117
we don't have animals,

800
00:39:53.438 --> 00:39:58.899
but we take manure from some neighbor,

801
00:39:59.445 --> 00:39:59.945
some farm.

802
00:40:00.200 --> 00:40:01.281
like close to our farm.

803
00:40:02.082 --> 00:40:03.004
And in return,

804
00:40:03.424 --> 00:40:04.445
we provide the forage.

805
00:40:04.703 --> 00:40:10.672
So the hay is sold to the farm in the same territory.

806
00:40:11.492 --> 00:40:16.703
And we keep one third of the farm to pastures in general.

807
00:40:17.422 --> 00:40:25.109
And it's also included in the rotation in the sense that we keep the pasture for about four years,

808
00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:26.172
for instance,

809
00:40:26.219 --> 00:40:26.766
alfa-alpha.

810
00:40:27.816 --> 00:40:30.701
And after four years of Alpha-Alpha,

811
00:40:31.102 --> 00:40:33.988
we start with the crop rotation I was mentioning before.

812
00:40:34.387 --> 00:40:34.629
Okay,

813
00:40:34.707 --> 00:40:39.199
so one third of your total amount of hectares is just pastures.

814
00:40:39.278 --> 00:40:39.457
Yeah,

815
00:40:39.473 --> 00:40:40.738
it's about 20 hectares.

816
00:40:41.020 --> 00:40:45.629
Some perennial crops staying there for four years so that you can really...

817
00:40:46.216 --> 00:40:47.097
repair the soil,

818
00:40:47.236 --> 00:40:51.197
the microbiology can have plenty of time to develop before you start using into your rotation,

819
00:40:51.318 --> 00:40:51.478
right?

820
00:40:51.537 --> 00:40:51.756
Yes,

821
00:40:51.998 --> 00:40:52.377
exactly.

822
00:40:52.378 --> 00:40:52.459
Okay,

823
00:40:52.460 --> 00:40:52.619
okay.

824
00:40:52.678 --> 00:40:56.599
I thought when you meant pastures that it necessarily means that there's animals.

825
00:40:57.162 --> 00:40:57.342
Yeah,

826
00:40:57.343 --> 00:40:58.662
it's grassland basically.

827
00:40:58.896 --> 00:40:59.139
Okay,

828
00:40:59.318 --> 00:40:59.435
yeah.

829
00:40:59.436 --> 00:41:03.998
It is composed by alpha-alpha or lolium multiflorum,

830
00:41:04.076 --> 00:41:10.123
which is a ray and ray grass or clover as well.

831
00:41:10.342 --> 00:41:10.467
So,

832
00:41:11.123 --> 00:41:11.248
yeah.

833
00:41:11.482 --> 00:41:15.029
But it means that one third of your total hectares on the farm are...

834
00:41:15.784 --> 00:41:16.885
busy being a pasture,

835
00:41:17.306 --> 00:41:17.525
right?

836
00:41:17.586 --> 00:41:19.828
And they're not growing a cash crop.

837
00:41:20.590 --> 00:41:22.750
How does that work for the economy of the farm?

838
00:41:23.672 --> 00:41:23.789
Yeah,

839
00:41:23.914 --> 00:41:24.312
actually,

840
00:41:24.656 --> 00:41:26.633
I think at the end,

841
00:41:27.016 --> 00:41:32.055
it's true that it's not like a very cash crop,

842
00:41:32.586 --> 00:41:34.648
in the sense that it doesn't provide a lot of money.

843
00:41:35.086 --> 00:41:36.086
But at the same time,

844
00:41:36.805 --> 00:41:40.430
it's not affected too much by the climate conditions.

845
00:41:40.445 --> 00:41:42.383
So you know that more or less,

846
00:41:42.914 --> 00:41:43.977
even if there is a...

847
00:41:44.692 --> 00:41:49.697
not good weather or there is a very bad climate conditions,

848
00:41:50.197 --> 00:41:52.021
you will harvest something at least.

849
00:41:52.139 --> 00:41:57.224
So especially in the last years that was raining a lot,

850
00:41:58.428 --> 00:42:05.881
we had some problems of quality and also yield even for the winter cereals,

851
00:42:06.490 --> 00:42:11.271
while also thanks to the highly intensive rains we had,

852
00:42:11.943 --> 00:42:14.068
we could harvest a lot of forage.

853
00:42:14.412 --> 00:42:18.715
that we are able to storage and to sell when the price is good.

854
00:42:18.996 --> 00:42:19.238
Okay,

855
00:42:19.996 --> 00:42:20.797
so your pastures,

856
00:42:20.840 --> 00:42:22.402
you're growing that forage on the pasture.

857
00:42:22.582 --> 00:42:22.777
Okay,

858
00:42:22.778 --> 00:42:25.644
so it's still producing something that you can sell for a profit.

859
00:42:25.684 --> 00:42:26.105
Exactly.

860
00:42:26.465 --> 00:42:29.965
We cut the hay a couple of times per year,

861
00:42:30.785 --> 00:42:31.613
maybe even three,

862
00:42:31.894 --> 00:42:33.535
sometimes three times per year more or less.

863
00:42:34.332 --> 00:42:36.269
We make the hay and we sell the hay.

864
00:42:36.801 --> 00:42:36.988
Okay,

865
00:42:37.441 --> 00:42:38.941
thank you so much for all that detail.

866
00:42:39.457 --> 00:42:40.504
I see you so much clearer,

867
00:42:40.801 --> 00:42:41.926
all of that comes together.

868
00:42:42.098 --> 00:42:42.879
It's very complex,

869
00:42:42.973 --> 00:42:43.754
it's very interesting.

870
00:42:44.632 --> 00:42:46.473
Yeah,

871
00:42:46.474 --> 00:42:46.633
thank you.

872
00:42:46.634 --> 00:42:48.893
You might remember that a couple of months ago,

873
00:42:48.994 --> 00:42:51.713
I published an episode about the farming chefs.

874
00:42:52.256 --> 00:42:57.334
They're a couple who started this awesome five hectare regenerative farm in Portugal.

875
00:42:57.514 --> 00:42:58.514
They're amazing people.

876
00:42:58.592 --> 00:43:00.483
They're very passionate about what they're doing.

877
00:43:01.030 --> 00:43:03.076
And they hosted us for a few days on the farm.

878
00:43:03.092 --> 00:43:06.561
And we did this whole documentary video that's available on

879
00:43:06.998 --> 00:43:07.420
YouTube.

880
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:09.061
Sadly.

881
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:11.642
They were caught by really bad,

882
00:43:11.902 --> 00:43:13.883
really big fires in their area.

883
00:43:14.465 --> 00:43:18.129
And almost all of the farm just heavily damaged and burned.

884
00:43:18.652 --> 00:43:20.613
And they really need help and support.

885
00:43:20.949 --> 00:43:23.176
So if you would like to,

886
00:43:23.371 --> 00:43:24.215
and if you can,

887
00:43:25.176 --> 00:43:26.254
please make a donation.

888
00:43:26.379 --> 00:43:29.004
I will leave the link in the description of this episode.

889
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:30.113
Thank you so much.

890
00:43:32.676 --> 00:43:36.629
I'd love to understand a little bit better the role of agronomists,

891
00:43:36.801 --> 00:43:37.582
generally speaking,

892
00:43:37.722 --> 00:43:38.847
in a farm ecosystem.

893
00:43:39.784 --> 00:43:48.996
Is it a case that every single farmer has one agronomist advising them and being the kind of the link between the farmer and the rest of the ecosystem?

894
00:43:49.074 --> 00:43:50.777
Or does that work in a different way?

895
00:43:52.019 --> 00:43:52.175
Yeah,

896
00:43:52.300 --> 00:43:52.558
okay.

897
00:43:53.214 --> 00:43:57.644
I'm glad you asked me this question because I think it's a very crucial topic.

898
00:43:58.441 --> 00:44:00.597
And from my experience,

899
00:44:01.550 --> 00:44:02.550
most of the farms,

900
00:44:02.691 --> 00:44:03.503
at least in Italy,

901
00:44:04.472 --> 00:44:05.410
arable farms,

902
00:44:06.175 --> 00:44:08.472
which are most of the time run...

903
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:11.040
by family components,

904
00:44:11.081 --> 00:44:12.221
so it's family farming.

905
00:44:12.942 --> 00:44:16.919
And the average farm of those type of farms,

906
00:44:16.966 --> 00:44:19.223
it's about like 50 to 100 hectares,

907
00:44:19.419 --> 00:44:19.864
more or less.

908
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:21.403
In those cases,

909
00:44:21.442 --> 00:44:26.247
I think it's very rare that they have an independent agronomist that influence the choices.

910
00:44:26.684 --> 00:44:29.091
And let me go a bit deeper in this.

911
00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:30.981
So most of the time,

912
00:44:31.872 --> 00:44:36.419
farms are highly influenced by external factors.

913
00:44:36.700 --> 00:44:37.247
For instance,

914
00:44:37.294 --> 00:44:37.809
the fact that

915
00:44:37.908 --> 00:44:42.173
that they are influenced by the climate conditions,

916
00:44:42.251 --> 00:44:43.353
which are not dependent on them,

917
00:44:43.372 --> 00:44:43.872
of course,

918
00:44:43.974 --> 00:44:48.575
but they don't allow farmers to make,

919
00:44:49.263 --> 00:44:49.521
let's say,

920
00:44:49.638 --> 00:44:52.825
choices with a high probability of success.

921
00:44:54.388 --> 00:44:56.450
The second factor is the price.

922
00:44:56.607 --> 00:44:58.450
So in the last years,

923
00:44:58.622 --> 00:45:00.013
the price of the crop is very...

924
00:45:00.014 --> 00:45:01.061
very fluctuating a lot.

925
00:45:01.460 --> 00:45:02.600
It's variating a lot.

926
00:45:03.521 --> 00:45:04.199
After COVID,

927
00:45:04.223 --> 00:45:04.902
the year after,

928
00:45:05.062 --> 00:45:06.102
like in 2022,

929
00:45:06.562 --> 00:45:09.664
the price of sunflower was doubled than now.

930
00:45:09.945 --> 00:45:11.422
So now it's half of the price.

931
00:45:12.039 --> 00:45:12.961
So you,

932
00:45:13.406 --> 00:45:13.664
again,

933
00:45:13.665 --> 00:45:19.172
you are planting something with no clue about the price that is going to be decided by someone else on the other side of the world,

934
00:45:19.250 --> 00:45:19.500
maybe.

935
00:45:19.672 --> 00:45:21.922
So those two factors,

936
00:45:21.923 --> 00:45:27.844
so climate change and the price of the very high variability of the prices of crops.

937
00:45:28.208 --> 00:45:29.509
And the price of inputs as well.

938
00:45:29.710 --> 00:45:30.751
And the price of inputs,

939
00:45:30.870 --> 00:45:31.232
exactly.

940
00:45:31.331 --> 00:45:32.612
So you have no idea about it.

941
00:45:33.214 --> 00:45:34.554
It's very fluctuating a lot.

942
00:45:36.175 --> 00:45:46.487
That makes the farmer in a condition which is very dependent on factors which is not depending on you and very uncertain conditions,

943
00:45:46.784 --> 00:45:47.003
right?

944
00:45:50.362 --> 00:45:51.409
And most of the time,

945
00:45:51.456 --> 00:45:52.987
farmers are very isolated.

946
00:45:53.206 --> 00:45:53.597
They are,

947
00:45:53.878 --> 00:45:56.253
maybe they live in the countryside without

948
00:45:57.144 --> 00:46:12.639
frequent contact with other people with the society after these let's say preamble i have to admit that unfortunately most of the farmers are highly influenced by technicians

949
00:46:12.998 --> 00:46:23.084
and representatives of chemical companies or seed companies that has to sell their products and most of the farms are

950
00:46:23.532 --> 00:46:26.876
highly influenced by those type of stakeholders,

951
00:46:27.075 --> 00:46:27.315
right?

952
00:46:27.956 --> 00:46:44.108
So all the decisions are influenced by someone that has the aim to sell their own products and they look at singular crop without looking at the farm as an integrated,

953
00:46:44.218 --> 00:46:48.843
holistic and more complex ecosystem or agro-ecosystem.

954
00:46:49.737 --> 00:46:50.698
So they will have someone,

955
00:46:50.699 --> 00:46:51.179
for example,

956
00:46:51.218 --> 00:46:54.761
a representative from one of these agrochemical companies,

957
00:46:55.363 --> 00:46:56.222
coming in and saying,

958
00:46:56.863 --> 00:46:57.921
they're probably agronomists,

959
00:46:57.945 --> 00:47:00.367
they're probably also quite knowledgeable in agronomy,

960
00:47:00.406 --> 00:47:02.367
but they will come and look at one thing and be like,

961
00:47:02.429 --> 00:47:02.546
oh,

962
00:47:02.585 --> 00:47:04.992
you've struggled to grow enough of that crop this year,

963
00:47:05.117 --> 00:47:05.429
but well,

964
00:47:05.445 --> 00:47:06.460
you need more of that product.

965
00:47:06.789 --> 00:47:07.039
Exactly.

966
00:47:07.054 --> 00:47:07.492
Yeah.

967
00:47:08.132 --> 00:47:10.164
Instead of looking at the entire farm ecosystem,

968
00:47:10.179 --> 00:47:13.304
they will look at one thing and give one piece of advice that is,

969
00:47:13.695 --> 00:47:14.148
first of all,

970
00:47:14.195 --> 00:47:15.460
in the interest of their own company.

971
00:47:16.032 --> 00:47:16.532
And second,

972
00:47:16.692 --> 00:47:18.473
that is very narrow-minded.

973
00:47:18.713 --> 00:47:19.153
Exactly.

974
00:47:19.213 --> 00:47:23.155
And the type of approach is very compartmentalized,

975
00:47:23.315 --> 00:47:25.455
in the sense that they look at a singular crop,

976
00:47:25.916 --> 00:47:26.916
a singular problem,

977
00:47:27.315 --> 00:47:28.315
a singular disease,

978
00:47:29.174 --> 00:47:30.916
maximum at the field scale.

979
00:47:31.713 --> 00:47:35.073
The difference is that if you are an agroecologist,

980
00:47:35.198 --> 00:47:37.401
you look at the farm at the landscape level.

981
00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:44.073
So you see the farm as part of a much more complex system integrated in a certain landscape with the...

982
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:45.201
society around,

983
00:47:45.261 --> 00:47:47.863
with the people within the farm and next to the farm.

984
00:47:48.365 --> 00:47:51.326
So you take into consideration much more factors.

985
00:47:51.927 --> 00:47:56.154
It makes a lot of sense that one person that is trained in agroecology,

986
00:47:56.756 --> 00:48:00.396
who is working independently from private interests,

987
00:48:00.912 --> 00:48:06.990
whose priorities are the farmer's well-being and the well-being of their farming ecosystem.

988
00:48:08.305 --> 00:48:14.671
would be in the best position to really help farmers through these transitions and in their operation in general,

989
00:48:14.710 --> 00:48:14.890
right?

990
00:48:14.891 --> 00:48:15.753
It makes a lot of sense.

991
00:48:16.332 --> 00:48:16.535
Now,

992
00:48:16.933 --> 00:48:18.097
I guess the question is like,

993
00:48:19.394 --> 00:48:24.441
how do we get to that point where each farmer has this independent agroecologist helping them?

994
00:48:25.582 --> 00:48:25.707
Yeah.

995
00:48:26.675 --> 00:48:32.832
I think that it's not necessarily something that has to be paid only by the farmer.

996
00:48:33.316 --> 00:48:37.113
I think it's possible to pay the service

997
00:48:38.384 --> 00:48:39.626
by many different actors.

998
00:48:39.706 --> 00:48:40.226
For instance,

999
00:48:40.767 --> 00:48:51.739
nowadays we know that there are some companies that have to pay because they pollute the environment and they are obliged to compensate this pollution,

1000
00:48:51.841 --> 00:48:55.700
this contamination with some credits,

1001
00:48:55.856 --> 00:48:56.560
green credits,

1002
00:48:56.622 --> 00:48:56.950
let's say.

1003
00:48:57.981 --> 00:49:06.888
And those companies might integrate or pay for these type of figures that can support the farmer,

1004
00:49:06.919 --> 00:49:07.388
for instance.

1005
00:49:08.901 --> 00:49:10.763
They would do that because if they don't,

1006
00:49:11.503 --> 00:49:13.787
they will have more to pay later down the road.

1007
00:49:14.146 --> 00:49:14.525
Exactly.

1008
00:49:14.646 --> 00:49:18.466
So it's a way of approaching the problem from a different perspective,

1009
00:49:18.529 --> 00:49:19.333
with a different way.

1010
00:49:19.974 --> 00:49:20.935
But at the same time,

1011
00:49:21.193 --> 00:49:21.997
you create,

1012
00:49:23.615 --> 00:49:23.896
let's say,

1013
00:49:23.974 --> 00:49:24.732
advantages,

1014
00:49:25.451 --> 00:49:26.357
which are not only,

1015
00:49:26.685 --> 00:49:26.935
let's say,

1016
00:49:26.982 --> 00:49:30.263
specifically to compensate a specific problem,

1017
00:49:30.419 --> 00:49:31.685
a specific environmental problem,

1018
00:49:31.763 --> 00:49:37.185
but you create some synergies which are positive for the society in general.

1019
00:49:37.186 --> 00:49:37.310
Yeah,

1020
00:49:37.372 --> 00:49:37.669
yeah.

1021
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:39.261
Another example I can provide.

1022
00:49:39.361 --> 00:49:41.304
So now the region of Lombardy,

1023
00:49:41.484 --> 00:49:43.644
which is the region next to Piedmont in the north of Italy,

1024
00:49:44.425 --> 00:49:48.047
the region is paying the agronomist with 80%

1025
00:49:48.570 --> 00:49:52.054
of support to provide consultancies to the farm.

1026
00:49:52.797 --> 00:49:53.554
So in this case,

1027
00:49:53.578 --> 00:49:55.383
the farmer can pay just 20%

1028
00:49:55.883 --> 00:49:58.086
of the price of the consultancy and the other

1029
00:49:58.523 --> 00:49:59.898
80% is provided by the...

1030
00:50:00.925 --> 00:50:01.386
the region,

1031
00:50:01.546 --> 00:50:01.805
let's say.

1032
00:50:02.246 --> 00:50:11.675
So I think this is already a very good example of how this type of transition can be supported throughout the consultancy of the farmer.

1033
00:50:11.854 --> 00:50:13.839
That's amazing that they're doing that,

1034
00:50:13.893 --> 00:50:17.440
that they're supporting agroecologists like yourself so much.

1035
00:50:17.768 --> 00:50:18.003
For me,

1036
00:50:18.347 --> 00:50:19.315
it makes a lot of sense,

1037
00:50:19.409 --> 00:50:19.628
right?

1038
00:50:19.643 --> 00:50:24.722
Because this is helping the local farmers take care of the ecosystem,

1039
00:50:24.925 --> 00:50:26.112
improve biodiversity.

1040
00:50:26.700 --> 00:50:28.863
have less chemicals leaching into the soils,

1041
00:50:29.082 --> 00:50:30.224
deal with the water problem.

1042
00:50:30.644 --> 00:50:34.847
It has all of these ecosystemic benefits that benefit the whole region.

1043
00:50:35.269 --> 00:50:38.652
That also help with food security.

1044
00:50:39.293 --> 00:50:44.183
It has so many advantages that it makes a lot of sense for the state to intervene and to do that.

1045
00:50:44.621 --> 00:50:46.261
But you don't see that very often.

1046
00:50:46.293 --> 00:50:47.949
So I'm really happy that that's the case here.

1047
00:50:48.043 --> 00:50:51.043
And I hope that we're going to hear a lot more stories like that in the future.

1048
00:50:51.386 --> 00:50:51.527
Yeah,

1049
00:50:51.605 --> 00:50:52.652
and I think in general,

1050
00:50:53.105 --> 00:50:54.714
if you put together all the...

1051
00:50:55.965 --> 00:50:57.025
the components,

1052
00:50:57.166 --> 00:50:58.928
all the parts and the parties,

1053
00:50:59.707 --> 00:51:03.531
I think that the economic barrier can be overcome.

1054
00:51:04.195 --> 00:51:13.820
So there are the ways of providing consultancies and to support farmers even without relying on the pockets of the farmer.

1055
00:51:15.102 --> 00:51:15.852
And there are also

1056
00:51:16.258 --> 00:51:20.555
European projects that can support the education,

1057
00:51:20.867 --> 00:51:21.648
the formation.

1058
00:51:22.896 --> 00:51:25.697
throughout courses and participatory consultancies,

1059
00:51:25.736 --> 00:51:26.338
for instance,

1060
00:51:27.017 --> 00:51:32.275
that can be an important tool to influence and to support farmers in this transition.

1061
00:51:33.338 --> 00:51:35.017
So there are good examples.

1062
00:51:35.580 --> 00:51:36.681
I think we need more,

1063
00:51:36.978 --> 00:51:38.752
but I think there is already something.

1064
00:51:39.314 --> 00:51:41.736
And thanks to the regional support,

1065
00:51:41.783 --> 00:51:42.283
for instance,

1066
00:51:42.314 --> 00:51:43.455
we could be able,

1067
00:51:43.627 --> 00:51:43.736
as

1068
00:51:44.267 --> 00:51:46.673
Marsilea has a group of agronomists,

1069
00:51:47.423 --> 00:51:51.486
to get in touch with about 50 new farms that

1070
00:51:51.584 --> 00:51:54.447
that are joining this training program,

1071
00:51:54.527 --> 00:51:55.748
this consultancy program,

1072
00:51:56.971 --> 00:51:58.811
with the support of the region.

1073
00:51:59.072 --> 00:52:00.451
And this is a way of starting,

1074
00:52:00.514 --> 00:52:00.795
let's say,

1075
00:52:00.811 --> 00:52:06.021
a collaboration that can be interesting for starting this process.

1076
00:52:06.521 --> 00:52:07.834
So it's a good example.

1077
00:52:08.100 --> 00:52:08.521
Yeah,

1078
00:52:08.537 --> 00:52:08.818
I see.

1079
00:52:08.881 --> 00:52:09.146
I see.

1080
00:52:09.225 --> 00:52:09.865
It's amazing.

1081
00:52:09.866 --> 00:52:11.428
And I guess there's also the public sector.

1082
00:52:11.490 --> 00:52:12.318
I mean,

1083
00:52:12.319 --> 00:52:13.131
the food companies,

1084
00:52:13.178 --> 00:52:16.115
they need also to secure their supply.

1085
00:52:16.225 --> 00:52:19.428
So them investing and paying agronomists could also be...

1086
00:52:20.248 --> 00:52:20.889
a possibility.

1087
00:52:20.909 --> 00:52:22.831
I was thinking about insurance companies as well.

1088
00:52:23.271 --> 00:52:24.454
I don't know if that's the case yet,

1089
00:52:24.532 --> 00:52:35.220
but an insurance company obviously has a big advantage at making sure that the farming system is resilient and is not going to experience massive crop failure in the decades to come with climate change.

1090
00:52:35.221 --> 00:52:40.001
So maybe they could also have an incentive of investing in the system.

1091
00:52:40.002 --> 00:52:40.142
Exactly.

1092
00:52:40.143 --> 00:52:44.626
So you put together all the parts and all the different types of supports,

1093
00:52:44.704 --> 00:52:45.626
even like public,

1094
00:52:46.392 --> 00:52:49.173
private consumers cannot support

1095
00:52:49.228 --> 00:52:49.869
parts throughout,

1096
00:52:49.969 --> 00:52:50.409
for instance,

1097
00:52:50.609 --> 00:52:51.250
CSAs,

1098
00:52:51.270 --> 00:52:52.272
the models.

1099
00:52:52.391 --> 00:52:56.375
So different types of sources that can,

1100
00:52:57.016 --> 00:52:57.277
again,

1101
00:52:57.434 --> 00:52:59.160
support the transition.

1102
00:52:59.176 --> 00:53:02.121
But I think that it's crucial to consider this transition,

1103
00:53:02.660 --> 00:53:04.824
not just at the farm level,

1104
00:53:05.145 --> 00:53:06.106
but at the food level.

1105
00:53:06.746 --> 00:53:08.481
So we have to consider,

1106
00:53:09.434 --> 00:53:09.668
let's say,

1107
00:53:09.824 --> 00:53:11.496
the whole food system.

1108
00:53:11.684 --> 00:53:12.527
So consumers,

1109
00:53:12.731 --> 00:53:13.356
retailers,

1110
00:53:13.465 --> 00:53:14.231
processors,

1111
00:53:15.106 --> 00:53:15.934
transportation.

1112
00:53:16.168 --> 00:53:16.856
So consider that.

1113
00:53:17.624 --> 00:53:20.867
The company that makes the transport of the products,

1114
00:53:21.287 --> 00:53:22.107
most of the cases,

1115
00:53:22.228 --> 00:53:25.970
the party that takes the highest part of the cost,

1116
00:53:25.994 --> 00:53:27.291
the final cost of the product.

1117
00:53:27.556 --> 00:53:28.111
That's crazy,

1118
00:53:28.134 --> 00:53:28.751
I didn't know that.

1119
00:53:29.134 --> 00:53:32.119
So if I had to make the bigger amount of money,

1120
00:53:32.181 --> 00:53:35.501
I would probably make a startup of transportation.

1121
00:53:35.845 --> 00:53:37.142
If I wanted to become rich.

1122
00:53:37.267 --> 00:53:38.126
And on top of that,

1123
00:53:38.376 --> 00:53:42.267
I'm sure they add also a premium for transporting organic crop,

1124
00:53:42.923 --> 00:53:43.111
right?

1125
00:53:43.112 --> 00:53:44.876
Because the farmer sells their organic crop.

1126
00:53:44.984 --> 00:53:45.945
with a small premium,

1127
00:53:45.946 --> 00:53:48.948
but that premium gets inflated by different stakeholders in the value chain,

1128
00:53:49.409 --> 00:53:50.608
including the transportation.

1129
00:53:50.889 --> 00:53:51.510
Yeah,

1130
00:53:51.991 --> 00:53:52.510
that's crazy.

1131
00:53:52.651 --> 00:53:52.772
Yeah,

1132
00:53:52.913 --> 00:53:53.171
anyway,

1133
00:53:53.671 --> 00:53:53.936
go on.

1134
00:53:54.194 --> 00:53:55.475
Yeah,

1135
00:53:55.577 --> 00:53:58.053
like this is an important,

1136
00:53:58.514 --> 00:53:59.999
so the logistic,

1137
00:54:00.241 --> 00:54:04.991
it's fundamental to consider the logistic when you plan how much hectares,

1138
00:54:05.022 --> 00:54:07.522
how many hectares you want to grow in your field.

1139
00:54:07.694 --> 00:54:10.288
Because if I grow five hectares of wheat,

1140
00:54:10.850 --> 00:54:14.288
then let's assume that I make three tons per hectare.

1141
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:16.322
of wheat in 5 hectares,

1142
00:54:16.943 --> 00:54:19.603
I get 15 tons of wheat.

1143
00:54:20.365 --> 00:54:22.287
Then if I have to transport 15 tons,

1144
00:54:22.447 --> 00:54:24.306
I pay as they were

1145
00:54:25.252 --> 00:54:27.150
30 tons because the cost is the same.

1146
00:54:28.033 --> 00:54:31.056
So per tons of wheat,

1147
00:54:31.713 --> 00:54:35.025
I would pay a lot for transportation.

1148
00:54:35.994 --> 00:54:41.072
So it's better to grow 10 hectares instead of 5 because I have to consider the transportation costs.

1149
00:54:41.088 --> 00:54:41.291
Okay.

1150
00:54:41.306 --> 00:54:41.650
All right.

1151
00:54:41.681 --> 00:54:41.806
So.

1152
00:54:42.176 --> 00:54:45.723
That's why it's important to consider also the surface dedicated to each crop,

1153
00:54:46.323 --> 00:54:51.252
because otherwise the cost of transportation would influence a lot the final cost.

1154
00:54:51.690 --> 00:55:00.002
That's why I think it's necessary to think as the whole food system and how it works.

1155
00:55:00.649 --> 00:55:04.032
because otherwise the farmer would pay too much.

1156
00:55:04.891 --> 00:55:06.133
Do you see that happening here?

1157
00:55:06.153 --> 00:55:09.755
Do you see different stakeholders in the food system coming together?

1158
00:55:09.794 --> 00:55:14.505
Or do you see the state leading initiatives where they bring together the different stakeholders to say,

1159
00:55:14.583 --> 00:55:14.825
come on,

1160
00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:15.262
let's talk,

1161
00:55:15.286 --> 00:55:16.747
we need to find solutions together?

1162
00:55:17.559 --> 00:55:17.840
Yeah,

1163
00:55:18.465 --> 00:55:22.856
I think it's crucial to create networks of farms.

1164
00:55:22.950 --> 00:55:25.887
And this is also what we are creating here in Cascina-Romanengo.

1165
00:55:26.200 --> 00:55:29.497
So we are planning the crops at the beginning of the year.

1166
00:55:30.268 --> 00:55:41.530
with a couple of farms next to our farm in order to get a sufficient amount of product which is efficient for the transportation cost.

1167
00:55:42.131 --> 00:55:47.889
So we plan the field sites and the crops dedicated to each field,

1168
00:55:48.733 --> 00:55:56.889
gathering the products all together and transporting the products together to the retailer or the processor in order to

1169
00:55:56.936 --> 00:55:59.839
to reduce and to be more efficient for the transportation.

1170
00:56:00.220 --> 00:56:01.623
So the network of farms,

1171
00:56:01.720 --> 00:56:05.287
it's not just for sharing the machinery or the equipment,

1172
00:56:05.607 --> 00:56:08.466
but it's also to plan the crops,

1173
00:56:09.287 --> 00:56:11.927
which can be a certain amount,

1174
00:56:13.099 --> 00:56:17.412
which is not too costly for the farmers.

1175
00:56:17.771 --> 00:56:17.959
Okay.

1176
00:56:18.021 --> 00:56:18.318
All right.

1177
00:56:18.380 --> 00:56:18.959
Is that clear?

1178
00:56:19.052 --> 00:56:19.177
Yeah,

1179
00:56:19.224 --> 00:56:19.412
very.

1180
00:56:19.662 --> 00:56:19.880
Okay.

1181
00:56:21.193 --> 00:56:23.615
We need a lot more young farmers to get into farming.

1182
00:56:23.662 --> 00:56:24.599
We have a big problem.

1183
00:56:24.968 --> 00:56:25.950
everywhere in Europe,

1184
00:56:25.951 --> 00:56:27.010
but elsewhere as well,

1185
00:56:27.090 --> 00:56:30.094
with a lot of farmers being quite old,

1186
00:56:30.614 --> 00:56:31.817
going towards retirement,

1187
00:56:32.879 --> 00:56:34.981
and too few young farmers getting into farming.

1188
00:56:35.637 --> 00:56:40.762
But I'm sure there's a lot of people listening to this podcast right now who are young people who are thinking of getting into farming.

1189
00:56:40.801 --> 00:56:44.582
So if you have any advice or recommendation for these people,

1190
00:56:45.301 --> 00:56:45.770
what would it be?

1191
00:56:46.910 --> 00:56:47.051
Yeah,

1192
00:56:47.082 --> 00:56:47.614
I think that...

1193
00:56:48.712 --> 00:56:51.754
I would definitely go into this journey.

1194
00:56:51.895 --> 00:56:59.426
I would join this world of originality slash agroecology world because there are so many opportunities,

1195
00:56:59.981 --> 00:57:00.723
not only for,

1196
00:57:01.168 --> 00:57:01.426
let's say,

1197
00:57:01.504 --> 00:57:03.364
technical people like agronomists,

1198
00:57:04.090 --> 00:57:17.637
but it's such a huge and multidisciplinary world that it can provide opportunities for people with many different...

1199
00:57:18.048 --> 00:57:46.073
backgrounds like communication marketing animal expert biodiversity expert teaching social pedagogic so so many different fields that they even if you don't have technical expertise you can find the way of applying your skills and your expertise your background your interest your passion in this system like working to regenerate the whole food system yeah right so you will feel

1200
00:57:46.184 --> 00:58:01.839
part of a movement which is big made of incredible and nice inspiring people and this is something that gives you the energy and the positiveness every day and at least this is something that affects me every day and i

1201
00:58:01.878 --> 00:58:05.597
feel like i'm not working since the last eight year nine nine

1202
00:58:06.280 --> 00:58:06.581
days,

1203
00:58:07.021 --> 00:58:07.301
years,

1204
00:58:07.422 --> 00:58:07.622
sorry.

1205
00:58:07.742 --> 00:58:08.443
You love what you do,

1206
00:58:08.543 --> 00:58:09.564
you're passionate about it,

1207
00:58:09.603 --> 00:58:10.843
you seem very passionate about it,

1208
00:58:10.867 --> 00:58:12.027
you seem very happy also,

1209
00:58:12.125 --> 00:58:16.031
so you're a great example of why young people should get into farming.

1210
00:58:16.070 --> 00:58:16.211
Yeah,

1211
00:58:16.593 --> 00:58:21.093
there is room for everyone and despite the background and the experience you have,

1212
00:58:21.133 --> 00:58:22.679
you can feel your place,

1213
00:58:22.773 --> 00:58:26.164
so let's join this movement and sure.

1214
00:58:26.695 --> 00:58:27.008
Awesome,

1215
00:58:27.648 --> 00:58:28.898
thank you so much for this conversation,

1216
00:58:28.961 --> 00:58:29.336
I loved it.

1217
00:58:29.337 --> 00:58:29.976
Thank you Rafael,

1218
00:58:30.008 --> 00:58:30.867
it was very nice,

1219
00:58:31.179 --> 00:58:31.898
thank you very much.