Hello!
Passionate about sustainability,
energy and climate?
You're in the right place.
Welcome to Energetic.
I'm Marine Cornelis and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen.
They may be activists,
scientists,
policy makers or other enthusiasts just like you.
Let their life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet.
She's the driving force behind CanEurope's Build Better Lives campaign,
where she's championing a future where homes are efficient,
heating and cooling are affordable,
and energy poverty becomes a thing of the best.
With her sights set on action,
Monica Vidal works to ensure ambitious EU directives translate into real-world solutions.
Before joining CanEurope,
she shaped Spain's energy policy landscape at ECODES in Saragossa,
advocating for bold decarbonization of buildings,
while supporting millions in their fight against energy poverty.
And today,
she's all about turning plants into impact because the energy transition is,
of course,
not just about promises.
It's about better lives,
of course.
Monica,
welcome to the show.
Thank you very much for having me today,
Marine.
I'm very much looking forward to our conversation.
So,
Monica,
you have a very interesting background because you started in environmental science in Saragossa,
and now you work at EU level.
So what were the driving forces behind those choices?
Well,
it was not planned because I studied environmental science.
So for me,
it was all about natural protection.
I was not planning to work on advocacy.
And as I said,
I studied environmental science.
And thereafter,
I did a master's degree on ecological industry.
So it was all about making the processes more efficient.
It was about the life cycle assessment.
eco-design,
etc.
So in order to improve the packaging of the product or find a new material to reduce the impact of the product.
And I had the chance and the opportunity to start working in relation with this.
My first job was about calculating carbon footprint of products and events and organizations.
So I was very happy about it.
And then suddenly I had the opportunity to start working on advocacy in relation with eco-design directive.
And that was the hook.
and say,
okay,
eco design,
that's interesting.
And I started working and to do some advocacy relation with the
Europe Eco Design Directive to influence the national government in Spain to vote more in a more ambitious way in Europe.
But really the eco design part was the hook for me to start working on advocacy.
But at the beginning really represent a very small part of my work.
I was working on this following the eco design directive,
but then I was working on continue calculating carbon footprint.
Then after on energy poverty a little bit,
and then the work on advocacy was keeping rolling,
and I started working more on other EU files and on energy,
like gas regulation.
And then on transport,
I've been working on the cars,
CO2 standards,
pedal to tracks,
rail,
in transport.
And suddenly I was only working on advocacy and coordinating a team of five people.
working on policy and governance.
That's really fascinating because,
I mean,
there are so many people who do work on policy who actually don't really understand what is behind the numbers and so on.
And I think a big part of the advocacy work is also to try to make sure the decision makers,
so the policy makers,
do understand why they need to go for stronger ambitions,
right?
and
With your background,
you're actually extremely knowledgeable and you're the right person to be both convincing,
but also really with the facts and the science.
So it's such an interesting dynamic and interesting courses that you have built over the years,
right?
Yeah,
well,
I think it's super important to have data,
to have information,
to have science when we just support our arguments.
And for example,
I think this is one of the key values of Canjura that we always work with science.
So I think it is important to have all the information and data.
We need more data,
even more data in our work,
doing advocacy.
But I think it's also working at EU level.
For me,
it was very nice to jump from national to EU level when I joined Canjura like three years ago,
more than three years ago now.
because really it was a very natural step for me because I was like working at national level.
coming to Brussels like very often and with Brussels-based organizations.
really to have more impact in our work,
I thought I really need to do this job.
And I'm very happy to work in an organization that really,
really work with this orientation.
Like it's,
we need data,
we need information,
we need to work with scientists and maybe we need more from that.
But I think from my experience with policy,
to convince policymakers also is very important to giving them some examples about what,
how the things are happening at national level,
at regional level,
and also at local level.
Because sometimes it's very connected with what we are proposing at EU level,
with the reality at national level.
Yeah,
and
CODES, the organization you belonged before,
which is based in Saragossa in the north of Spain.
For this framework,
I visited it a few years ago in the framework of the Erasmus program.
And I was really fascinated by all the work that is being done and how much...
willingness there is to collaborate with different realities to really make an impact.
And between like co-construction and step-by-step projects,
and there are also really interesting projects to build a whole neighborhood with solar energy.
So this kind of,
I can see you nod now,
and this experience was very,
very inspiring.
So somehow,
as you said,
it feels that your experience at CanEurope is building
on all the foundations that you also did with ECODES and you can also echo ECODES work at European level,
right?
So it's a nice continuation.
Yeah,
indeed,
because I was the person representing ECODES in CAN Europe,
because CAN Europe is a network of NGOs.
We have more than 200 organizations that are part of the network,
but I was also representing ECODES in other
NGOs' network,
for example,
EEB.
So for me,
it was a very natural step to go from Ecuador to Chicago.
And indeed,
I've been working like for 12 years in Ecuador.
So a lot of my background,
of course,
still relies on that period.
But well,
it was not always easy because when I hear you,
you know,
to talk about the solar project.
And well,
it was so at the beginning,
you have the idea and you put it in a paper and it looks fine.
And then you have the opportunity to put this project in practice and then you find all the barriers.
But that's also a lot of knowledge when you confront these barriers.
And that's one of the experiences and the conclusions,
I will say,
the learning,
the takeaways that I take from that part is the importance of collaboration.
We need to collaborate with different stakeholders in order to achieve.
Because we are facing a...
climate crisis,
housing crisis.
So they are both,
they are big problems and we are so small,
but we need to collaborate with others.
For example,
if we are coming to the energy poverty work,
it's impossible to really try to improve the situation on energy poverty.
If you don't talk with the utilities companies,
because you really need to understand how the social tariff works in order to help the people that are.
claiming for this social tariff,
for example.
So we really need to talk with different stakeholders because if not,
it will be very difficult.
So that's collaboration.
It's one of the first takeaways for me.
And that's exactly what we are trying to do with the Build Veterans Campaign,
to unite different stakeholders,
the social justice organization,
housing organization,
environmental,
trade unions,
young movement groups.
in order to ensure decent,
affordable energy efficiency homes for all.
That is music to my ears.
And collaboration over competition is exactly the angle of Energetic.
Because,
yes,
I do believe that we need to really communicate more and to communicate better and to understand what is behind the various projects to build better solutions and to build long-term resilience in a way.
It's beyond solving energy poverty,
but it's also about improving the life of millions,
of billions.
And that requires really a broader view and better collaborations between the various parties that are together.
And for instance,
I've just finished working with the European Commission on Summer Energy Poverty.
And really what the main takeaway is really that you can't...
only work with energy actors,
you also have to work with climate actors,
with the civil society that works on climate,
on urban planning as well,
because if you just look at one,
really one angle,
you don't answer to the bigger problem that it is.
So,
meteorological organization,
health organization,
etc.,
they are all needed to be part of the answers,
right?
And in particular,
the Build Better campaign that you are coordinating.
So this emerged while revising the Energy Performance of Buildings Directive,
the EPBD,
for nerds like us.
So what was the rationale behind launching this campaign?
And how did you go about uniting diverse organizations around it?
Were you faced with some form of skepticism at first?
Well,
as you said,
we launched it.
and putting together this campaign during the revision of the
Energy Performance Buildings Directive.
And in our work plans,
to start a new campaign,
it was not in our plans,
but we've been working in the revision.
We're doing the policy and advocacy work.
And we saw that the directive was receiving a lot of backlash,
specifically from different countries,
and just in the social angle against the directive.
Thank you.
It's exactly the opposite.
We really need to put a positive message around the buildings directed because if we really manage to have an ambitious and socially just buildings directive,
actually that can help and improve people's lives.
And that was the purpose of the campaign.
And then say,
okay,
we need to do that,
but we cannot do that alone.
As I was saying,
that was my thinking.
It's not only the environmental organization that...
can really talk about the social importance and how we can really need to improve people's life.
We need to team up with the social justice organization,
the housing organization,
the health organization,
as you were saying.
But also the social dimension is about the people that use these buildings,
right?
Because we need to build this to live,
to study,
to work.
But it's also about the people who work in the construction sector as well,
because we really need to improve there.
working condition of these people.
And that's why we also team up with the trade unions.
And about your question about the people were hesitant at the beginning,
to be honest,
it was very easy to convince people to join the campaign because people understood very fast that we really need to do something together in relation with this.
And yeah.
course,
was a little work because we need to convince people,
we need to add the different arguments from one organization to others.
But at the end,
it was very surprisingly easy to convince them to join the campaign.
And well,
nowadays we are like 92 organizations,
the campaigns keep growing.
And of course,
now we are more focused on the revision,
the APPD,
the revision was finished,
and now we are facing the implementation of the APPD.
And that will be one of the main challenges and one of the main priorities for the campaign to push for a socially just and ambitious implementation of the buildings directive.
And also,
of course,
now with the new commission on energy and housing,
also the idea is to continue working with other
EU plans,
for example,
the
European Affordable Housing Plan.
And because the link between the housing crisis
And the problems are related,
for example,
energy poverty are very related.
So we cannot work on one thing without the other.
We shouldn't be working in silos.
It's something that comes very often,
but it may be really hard not to work in silos,
right?
And it's exactly what you try to break.
But before we get a little bit more into the Build Better initiative and the implementation of the
Energy Performance of Building Directive,
Can you share a few figures about why the...
building sector matters so much when we talk about the climate crisis and we talk about energy poverty.
Yeah,
well buildings in Europe represent 40 percent of the EU energy consumption,
for example,
and this consumption is mostly related with heating.
And we still heating our buildings with mainly with fossil fuels,
coal,
gas,
mainly.
But at the same time,
we have very inefficient buildings.
We know that 70%
of our buildings are deemed inefficient.
So we are hitting very inefficient buildings with fossil fuels that the price is very volatile,
sometimes it's very high,
and that leads us to the situation that we are facing with 42 million people suffering from energy poverty.
So that's why it's so important to work on buildings,
because it's not only about the climate change.
but it's also about improving people's lives.
And also when you think about building,
when we are talking about residential buildings,
that means housing sector.
And in the housing sector,
of course,
we all need a place to live.
But so housing is a right,
but the situation that we see is like the market sees the housing as a financial asset.
So people who have capital invest in housing.
And that's why the housing crisis is so damaging nowadays in Europe,
that this situation exacerbates the problem.
So we really need to find a solution for both.
crisis,
the housing crisis and the climate crisis.
And of course,
that's not easy.
But what we are willing is to put proposals there that really try to focus on both.
And as I said before,
the idea is to ensure decent and affordable and also energy efficiency homes for all.
So we cannot build only new buildings.
So it will be not the solution.
We really need to renovate the buildings that are very inefficient,
as I said before.
But also we need to do something with the empty spaces that we have in our cities.
We need to repurpose these spaces in order to really be a place that can be the home for someone.
Yes,
after COVID,
now there are many offices,
for instance,
that are empty and could be repurposed if there were some plans to do so,
right?
First,
and the second aspect you talked about,
I would say,
I would call it...
speculation.
The fact that for some people,
it's just impossible to find a decent accommodation for a fair price.
And this issue with the housing is very,
I think,
overall,
the conversation comes from Spain,
right?
The fact that there was so much speculation over with the Vulture friends who bought a lot of not so high quality housing.
And then
decided to repurpose them and then increase the rents,
right?
It's really something that I've noticed.
It's a conversation that we see way more in Spain and maybe in Ireland than in the rest of Europe.
Is it something that you have been working on too,
right?
Well,
actually,
it's something that we really want to work more in the future,
in the near future.
And because it's true that housing until now,
it was really something that really needs to be managed at the national level.
and we need to continue like this at national and regional and local level.
But it's true that now with this new portfolio that Jorgensen has,
you're making the link between energy and housing.
We expect some plans that really help and guide also member states to do something in relation with housing.
But so far at Cane Europe we didn't work on housing.
But as I said residential buildings,
that's housing.
But we will stay in the energy efficiency part,
I will say.
But of course,
supporting the organization working on housing,
for example,
as part of the campaign.
There is Habitat for Humanity,
for example,
that they work a lot on these issues.
And they have another campaign that is NGS Spaces that is really working on this.
And our hope is we have the opportunity to amplify their work and also include some of their demands as part of the Build for Tolis campaign.
So but we will stay on the energy side of the problem,
I would say.
That's really interesting.
And I mean,
2025 looks very exciting for you.
So yeah,
that's really great to know and that you will be also focusing on this.
And I mean,
it's of course not my comment wasn't of course,
you to just put the blame on this kind of funds,
because in a way they can also they can be part of the solution.
But it's also about providing the rights.
engaging in the right conversation with them so they don't increase the crisis,
right?
So it's all about that.
But anyway,
in the campaign,
you mentioned also the importance of integrating the social dimensions into the campaign.
But as you said,
you can Europe is usually more around energy efficiency.
It's more about the climate aspect.
So how do you work to ensure a kind of a balanced approach in a way between the social challenges.
and let's say the energy challenges.
Well,
that's the link with what we were saying before,
for example,
in the case of buildings renovation,
right,
is one of our main battles.
We need to we really need to increase the rate of building renovation in Europe.
And for example,
what we want to avoid is like people,
for example,
the price of the buildings in the rent,
for example,
increase because the landlord,
for example.
renovate the building.
That's where the social angle needs to be implemented.
And that's where we are proposing the social safe words,
really,
to protect people.
Because,
as we were saying,
we really want to see the affordable house also for the people.
It's what we really want to avoid is to,
for example,
we were talking about speculation that goes together sometimes with gentrification.
And we really want to avoid gentrification as well,
because we really need to learn from the experience.
And in the case of Spain,
for example,
we saw a lot of gentrification as well.
So spaces that were renovated and all the people that were living in this neighborhood for years.
And now.
They really need to go away because the rents are super high and they cannot pay that.
So we really need to put some caps on rent.
That's one of the things that we are proposing,
but it's not the only measure.
But that's the angle that we need to apply when in our work,
for example,
like really proposing social safe works in relation with building renovation,
for instance.
Yes,
so it's social safeguards to avoid a renovation,
right?
That's the term that has been used in different settings.
And on the,
let's say,
energy efficiency side,
I mean,
you're one of the best experts on energy efficiency,
right?
Because you also know about energy efficiency of the appliances.
That's what the eco-design directives are about.
So I never had anybody on the show tell me about the eco-design directives.
So it's your time to share things or two about the eco-design.
So why does it matter that households are equipped with energy efficient appliances?
Well,
actually,
I'm not sure if you want me to talk about the Ecosystem Directive,
but what I can say about the appliances and related to energy poverty.
For example,
when I was working at national level,
we were I visited a lot of apartments from people that could not really afford to pay the energy bills.
And what we saw is that people have very old appliances.
So,
and,
but sometimes it's not only that they are old,
but they are,
for example,
you could see a fridge without a door,
for example.
So as you can imagine,
that means that this fridge is consuming a lot of energy.
And that's one of the reasons why they have a very super high energy bill.
Of course,
that's a very,
it's not,
it's one case,
no?
but we yeah
I saw that.
So really what I wanted to say is like,
we really need to have as much very,
very efficient appliances in our home,
especially the ones that really consume a lot of energy.
For example,
a fridge.
A fridge is one of the things that you have always planned.
So if you are planning to renovate your kitchen,
the fridge is the most important one.
So you really need to have a very efficient one.
And also same with the washing.
chain,
so really try to have efficient programs and use it.
But it's not.
Yeah,
I will say that it's very important because we really need to use,
right?
It's not like an option.
It's not an option.
We,
you really need a bridge.
So that's why it's so important that people can afford an efficient bridge,
for example.
But yeah,
with the Code Design Directive,
it's a directive that works like in package,
product packages.
So once you put in
that they can work on the revision of the washing machine's package or the fridge or the heating appliances.
And that's why it's so important because that makes really a ball that puts that pressure on the market really to improve this product.
So they set the target high,
so the market needs to risk.
Yeah,
and last year,
was it a couple of years ago,
there was also a revision of the different labels of the appliances,
right?
Because the energy efficiency of those appliances had increased so much in the past years that they had to level it up a bit to reflect better the actual trend.
But there is a big issue with the affordability.
So
I had to change my oven a few months ago because mine died overnight and I couldn't repair it.
There weren't any spare parts available.
I tried for months to get a spare part and it wasn't available.
So I had to buy a new one.
Really absurd story,
maybe for another time.
But I was really,
I'd say,
badly impressed by the price of the most efficient appliances.
And there are some choices that people have to make on the affordability side.
So is it for the overall building quality?
And as you said,
even if you work on the safeguards,
they aren't.
things that are actually expensive and expensive to run and expensive to purchase.
So how do you make sure that more people manage to afford this kind of the benefits of the transition?
Because it's also getting a backlash because it's perceived as expensive,
right?
Yeah,
totally.
And you're totally right.
And we didn't manage so far to really.
And then the most efficient products are always the more expensive.
And it's funny you mentioned the energy label,
because I've been working on that as well,
when there was a re-scaling of the energy label.
Because actually what we have,
for example,
in the energy label,
you could see all the labels.
They are
A++,
A, B,
C,
D.
So people perceive
A+, like a super good product.
it was not the best option that you can have.
It was the minimum option that you can find in the market,
actually,
in relation with some products,
for example,
washing machine.
So 8NAS was the minimum that you can buy.
But it was perceived like super good because you could see the E,
A,
B,
C,
D.
So that's why they re-scaled the energy label.
And that's actually the energy label together with the eco-design directly,
which makes it try to clean the rest of the bad products from the market.
So I guess that's the opportunity that we have to really reduce the prices of the good products.
If we really try to avoid from the market the really inefficient products,
I think that's the way that we can have.
But for example,
one of the recommendations that I will have for everyone is to really think if you really need this product.
In the case of a bridge,
it's like very clear.
But for example,
when a dryer,
do we really need a dryer?
In Spain,
we really don't.
In other countries,
maybe it's more important.
But I think it's very important to think about this and also the size.
Because when we see in the market that they are producing bigger products,
so they are maybe more efficient,
but they are bigger.
So that also brings us to the conversation about sufficiency.
And it's super important in relation with products,
because we have bigger TVs,
bigger fridges,
and bigger wasimashias.
as sometimes we don't need that pitch.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And also try to keep your appliances for as long as possible.
That goes back to me not able to repair my oven,
which was,
of course,
I felt
I was angry about the fact that it wasn't possible.
And now there is a right to repair in Europe,
but it's all about implementation,
right?
So yes,
Build Better now is about implementation.
So what kind of steps are you going to do?
this year and the next to focus on implementation and making sure that member states do better and build better and member states and cities and regions do better and how will you be helping them well in in the framework of the bmbs directive there is the shooter in 2025 at the end of 2025 december 2025 members states need to draft the
national building renovation plans
So really,
this will be like a key document for them to really show how they will implement the buildings directive.
So now we are really focused on C,
which are the different elements that these member states need to include.
We are,
so far,
we are working in relation with the Commission because it's the Commission that really should give member states some guidance on how to draft these plans
4.
different sections because in the national building renovation plans you need to they need to include some part of heating but also on the zero zero energy buildings and also solar solar mandates so there are different elements of course we will network on everything but that's that's our main priority now working with the commission to try to
have good guidance notes for member states at the same times with the campaign.
And because in as part of the campaign,
we have organizations working at national level.
So what we want to do,
what we are pushing is to have public participation at national level to really produce inclusive national building renovation plans.
And for me,
coming to one of the questions that you had at the beginning of about my
The lessons I learned from my work at national level,
that's my second lesson learned,
is the importance of the reality check.
We really need to check with the organization.
For example,
if you are planning this national building renovation plan,
that hopefully they will fail to release some suffering from energy poverty,
you really need to include in these public participation processes people who suffer energy poverty.
In this case,
In relation with buildings,
you really need to include people that have problems to find that that's suffering the housing crisis.
So,
for example,
working with tenants and so on.
So the importance of an inclusive and ambitious public participation is mandatory.
Yes,
it's critical and it's part of the good governance and about public acceptance,
right?
People embrace this transition as a positive framework for improvement of their lives,
right?
and
I mean,
we are broadcasting this episode at the very beginning of 2025.
And now we have a
European commissioner in charge of housing and energy.
So how do you envision working with him this year?
It's the very first time he had housing,
right?
Because housing is quite a national prerogative,
but it has become over the years,
as you said,
a European priority too.
and there are
different initiatives.
There is also the New Europe and Baha House and different things like that.
So they are very different schemes to really streamline the new ways of inhabit Europe,
right?
So what are your priorities and how will you be working with him?
Well,
our priority is like he really work on ensure decent,
affordable and energy efficiency homes for all.
So really not only with this housing part that he has as part of his portfolio,
he really don't forget.
about the affordability part of this solution for the housing crisis.
That's one of our key priorities.
And talking about narrative,
to really put the renovation part,
to repurposing empty spaces in the narrative.
That will be one of our priorities on the narrative side.
Of course,
as I said,
on the political side,
we will really work here,
we'll keep working on the implementation of the buildings directive.
For us,
our demand will be like,
okay,
you really need to call member states to really implement social justice,
social justice and ambitious building directive.
And I know that the European Affordable Housing Plan will be one of our priorities also when we talk in the conversation with him.
For example,
what we did this month as part of the Build But Don't Ice campaign,
we prepared an open call for him with the priorities.
and that we have as a campaign for the first year of his mandate.
And that were the main focus,
the implementation of the
Builders Directive and also the European Affordable Housing Plan.
It's going to be a very busy year and I wish you the very best of luck.
And of course,
I hope that you find some inspiration on Energetic too.
Thank you so much,
Monica,
for this super insightful conversation.
I wasn't expecting to talk about my oven,
but that was the joy of live recording.
So thank you so much,
Monica.
And happy new year.
Thank you very much for having me today,
Marine.
And I'm really looking forward to continue this conversation in the future with you and also maybe with the people who are listening to us today.
Because we really need to work together,
right?
To build our lives.
Absolutely.
It's about building better lives.
Thank you so much,
Monica.
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic.
It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there.
I'm Maureen Canales,
your host from Policy Consultancy,
Next Energy Consumer,
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