WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.841 If you feel patronized, 2 00:00:01.842 --> 00:00:02.341 of course, 3 00:00:02.342 --> 00:00:05.742 you won't trust the contractor you have in front of you. 4 00:00:06.162 --> 00:00:08.722 But even if that contractor is extremely competent, 5 00:00:09.163 --> 00:00:11.603 but still there is something broken, 6 00:00:11.823 --> 00:00:14.004 how do we unbreak this in a way? 7 00:00:14.244 --> 00:00:18.485 So that's where the community can really help finding the right people. 8 00:00:19.645 --> 00:00:21.226 And I think that's exactly it. 9 00:00:21.286 --> 00:00:25.287 We talk about grid infrastructure and heat infrastructure, 10 00:00:25.807 --> 00:00:28.468 but I don't think we talk about trust as infrastructure. 11 00:00:32.216 --> 00:00:34.157 This episode is about retrofit, 12 00:00:34.977 --> 00:00:37.938 but from the place where it actually happens, 13 00:00:38.599 --> 00:00:39.439 inside the home. 14 00:00:40.499 --> 00:00:43.040 Women are already making the decisions. 15 00:00:43.641 --> 00:00:45.221 They manage renovation projects. 16 00:00:45.702 --> 00:00:46.982 They handle budgets. 17 00:00:47.642 --> 00:00:48.843 They think about comfort, 18 00:00:49.503 --> 00:00:49.823 health, 19 00:00:49.983 --> 00:00:50.664 ventilation, 20 00:00:50.924 --> 00:00:51.544 materials, 21 00:00:51.684 --> 00:00:53.645 and the long-term future of the house. 22 00:00:54.345 --> 00:00:54.565 Yet, 23 00:00:55.085 --> 00:01:01.028 the retrofit world still talks as if the real decision-maker were someone else. 24 00:01:01.824 --> 00:01:04.245 Retrofit is presented as a technical upgrade. 25 00:01:04.605 --> 00:01:05.525 In reality, 26 00:01:05.785 --> 00:01:08.226 it's a deeply human process. 27 00:01:09.046 --> 00:01:10.126 It involves risk, 28 00:01:10.567 --> 00:01:11.167 confidence, 29 00:01:11.407 --> 00:01:11.827 timing, 30 00:01:12.167 --> 00:01:12.707 and trust. 31 00:01:14.888 --> 00:01:15.368 So today, 32 00:01:15.528 --> 00:01:16.508 to discuss all this, 33 00:01:16.588 --> 00:01:17.849 I'm joined by Ellora Coupe, 34 00:01:18.069 --> 00:01:20.169 founder of Her Own Space. 35 00:01:20.790 --> 00:01:28.132 Her Own Space supports women homeowners navigating renovation and low-carbon upgrades with clarity and structure. 36 00:01:28.928 --> 00:01:34.732 It began as a community and evolved into a platform offering impartial guidance and peer support. 37 00:01:35.553 --> 00:01:36.533 In this conversation, 38 00:01:36.613 --> 00:01:39.755 we explore why retrofits can feel intimidating, 39 00:01:40.416 --> 00:01:44.118 why doing the right thing often becomes exhausting, 40 00:01:44.819 --> 00:01:50.643 and what shifts when women are recognized as the people already leading this project. 41 00:01:51.083 --> 00:01:56.327 Because retrofits will move faster when the system finally reflects reality. 42 00:01:56.907 --> 00:01:57.187 Ellora, 43 00:01:57.387 --> 00:01:58.148 welcome to the show. 44 00:01:58.956 --> 00:01:59.276 Thank you, 45 00:01:59.316 --> 00:01:59.697 Marine, 46 00:01:59.737 --> 00:02:00.337 for having me. 47 00:02:01.318 --> 00:02:01.778 So, 48 00:02:01.978 --> 00:02:02.238 Elora, 49 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:04.400 you have worked across sustainability, 50 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:06.942 design and community-led projects for years. 51 00:02:07.602 --> 00:02:15.088 When did it become clear to you that women homeowners were facing a specific set of barriers around retrofit? 52 00:02:15.848 --> 00:02:15.968 So, 53 00:02:16.729 --> 00:02:21.072 my father was a builder and I studied interior architecture. 54 00:02:22.233 --> 00:02:23.834 During the period I had my children, 55 00:02:24.194 --> 00:02:25.175 about 10 years ago, 56 00:02:26.476 --> 00:02:26.596 I... 57 00:02:27.136 --> 00:02:34.380 found myself inadvertently supporting women homeowners undertaking renovation projects. 58 00:02:34.741 --> 00:02:37.102 And sometimes it started off with friends. 59 00:02:37.842 --> 00:02:38.163 And 60 00:02:38.983 --> 00:02:44.987 I realized how complicated the process was from a woman's perspective. 61 00:02:45.707 --> 00:02:51.130 And understanding a lot more about the detail and the complexities of renovation work, 62 00:02:52.851 --> 00:02:53.952 it really caused concern. 63 00:02:54.312 --> 00:02:55.512 how complicated, 64 00:02:55.672 --> 00:02:56.793 what a risk it was, 65 00:02:57.393 --> 00:03:01.654 or what's probably the most expensive project you will ever undertake in your life. 66 00:03:02.434 --> 00:03:04.375 And based on that, 67 00:03:04.555 --> 00:03:04.975 I thought, 68 00:03:05.235 --> 00:03:06.736 how is this so difficult? 69 00:03:06.816 --> 00:03:07.956 How do we improve this? 70 00:03:08.676 --> 00:03:13.538 And then as I became more interested and deep dived into Retrofit, 71 00:03:14.178 --> 00:03:15.638 I asked myself a question, 72 00:03:15.979 --> 00:03:20.460 is there an opportunity for Retrofit to make the process 73 00:03:20.740 --> 00:03:25.463 easier for women undertaking considering the impact it has on them. 74 00:03:26.404 --> 00:03:35.731 Yeah and if you check now social media you see a lot of women who start their own process of retrofitting and you see a lot of attention and it's all 75 00:03:36.231 --> 00:03:48.060 I mean sometimes it's linked to it starts with aesthetics sometimes it starts with a more like technical need like they can't afford something that is already polished and finished. 76 00:03:48.688 --> 00:03:51.850 So you see a lot of DIY-ers in a way, 77 00:03:52.251 --> 00:03:56.494 but it's kind of hard to also know where to start, 78 00:03:56.554 --> 00:03:56.814 right? 79 00:03:56.934 --> 00:03:59.416 It's probably what you notice with your friends. 80 00:04:00.176 --> 00:04:00.436 Yes, 81 00:04:00.617 --> 00:04:07.001 I think we've got used to this narrative that even through the women we see as influencers, 82 00:04:07.021 --> 00:04:07.542 for example, 83 00:04:07.582 --> 00:04:10.424 undertaking complicated projects or television, 84 00:04:11.024 --> 00:04:14.987 we're made to think that the process is extraordinarily painful. 85 00:04:15.307 --> 00:04:16.408 It's not without. 86 00:04:17.060 --> 00:04:18.241 Terrible mistakes, 87 00:04:18.341 --> 00:04:19.782 terrible decision-making, 88 00:04:19.882 --> 00:04:21.383 problems in supply chains, 89 00:04:22.024 --> 00:04:23.024 poor workforce. 90 00:04:23.365 --> 00:04:23.645 I mean, 91 00:04:23.785 --> 00:04:24.085 actually, 92 00:04:24.145 --> 00:04:25.927 we've just kind of got used to it now. 93 00:04:26.187 --> 00:04:27.208 And it's extremely, 94 00:04:28.268 --> 00:04:31.070 I would go as far as saying dangerous project to undertake. 95 00:04:31.090 --> 00:04:31.331 You know, 96 00:04:31.371 --> 00:04:33.092 recently on the weekend, 97 00:04:33.132 --> 00:04:38.216 there was a case of a family whose builders left them completely bankrupt. 98 00:04:39.056 --> 00:04:40.677 And it was in the BBC. 99 00:04:40.778 --> 00:04:42.059 I can't recall the details, 100 00:04:42.179 --> 00:04:44.040 but it's frightening actually how... 101 00:04:44.220 --> 00:04:47.082 badly wrong it can go and the impact that can have on their lives. 102 00:04:47.823 --> 00:04:48.043 And 103 00:04:48.584 --> 00:04:49.644 I think my thought was, 104 00:04:50.225 --> 00:04:50.465 you know, 105 00:04:50.585 --> 00:04:56.530 women already use a community to navigate a lot of complex life stages. 106 00:04:58.171 --> 00:05:00.093 Why should this be any different? 107 00:05:00.994 --> 00:05:07.339 And one thing I found really interesting was as I moved from supporting one homeowner to the next, 108 00:05:07.899 --> 00:05:08.860 all the learning. 109 00:05:09.413 --> 00:05:10.734 And that work was lost. 110 00:05:11.534 --> 00:05:17.018 And it was restarting the entire process of supporting a homeowner again from scratch. 111 00:05:18.039 --> 00:05:18.259 And 112 00:05:18.679 --> 00:05:20.180 I found that frustrating. 113 00:05:20.841 --> 00:05:21.781 As a professional, 114 00:05:22.082 --> 00:05:24.943 I felt it wasn't helpful enough. 115 00:05:25.564 --> 00:05:38.833 And it's kind of why I wondered whether community could be a really powerful solution in terms of understanding behavioral science and how peer support supports us significantly when we're going through long-term. 116 00:05:39.257 --> 00:05:47.423 projects or changes and how community-based learning kind of improves our confidence in making decisions. 117 00:05:48.103 --> 00:05:50.985 But then obviously there's a big problem with trust. 118 00:05:51.746 --> 00:05:59.351 It is the deep-rooted thread is that women don't know who to trust when they undertake these projects. 119 00:05:59.932 --> 00:06:04.635 What do I trust in terms of my own decision-making and just those individuals? 120 00:06:05.015 --> 00:06:06.276 Am I making the right choice? 121 00:06:06.296 --> 00:06:07.257 Is this the right option? 122 00:06:07.717 --> 00:06:08.938 Have I missed something? 123 00:06:09.198 --> 00:06:10.219 Where do I start? 124 00:06:10.579 --> 00:06:12.141 Are these costs completely, 125 00:06:12.601 --> 00:06:12.861 you know, 126 00:06:12.961 --> 00:06:15.263 mad or are these the right costs? 127 00:06:15.924 --> 00:06:16.044 Yeah, 128 00:06:16.045 --> 00:06:20.688 there's a lot of trust is obviously an imperative complex aspect to all of this. 129 00:06:21.528 --> 00:06:21.668 Yeah. 130 00:06:21.789 --> 00:06:23.910 And it's also interesting because as women, 131 00:06:24.010 --> 00:06:30.015 we've all faced this kind of moment where we are not really being considered seriously, 132 00:06:30.215 --> 00:06:31.256 like as a serious. 133 00:06:32.177 --> 00:06:33.538 person to talk with because, 134 00:06:33.738 --> 00:06:33.958 I mean, 135 00:06:34.058 --> 00:06:34.498 I don't know, 136 00:06:34.578 --> 00:06:35.318 in my home, 137 00:06:35.358 --> 00:06:36.679 I'm the one dealing with energy. 138 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:39.600 My partner doesn't understand anything about it. 139 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:42.381 And now I see you laughing because, 140 00:06:42.521 --> 00:06:42.782 I mean, 141 00:06:42.842 --> 00:06:44.182 that can be the same with cars, 142 00:06:44.222 --> 00:06:45.923 that can be the same with renovation. 143 00:06:46.663 --> 00:06:47.324 And so, 144 00:06:47.724 --> 00:06:47.984 you know, 145 00:06:48.444 --> 00:06:51.065 renovation and dealing with contractors and so on, 146 00:06:51.285 --> 00:06:56.688 that's one of those spaces where the conversation can feel very quickly, 147 00:06:56.748 --> 00:06:57.848 extremely patronizing, 148 00:06:58.268 --> 00:06:58.528 right? 149 00:06:59.169 --> 00:06:59.749 So if... 150 00:07:00.189 --> 00:07:01.369 you feel patronized, 151 00:07:01.370 --> 00:07:01.870 of course, 152 00:07:01.890 --> 00:07:05.631 you won't trust the contractor you have in front of you. 153 00:07:06.191 --> 00:07:08.871 But even if that contractor is extremely competent, 154 00:07:09.332 --> 00:07:09.812 but still, 155 00:07:10.472 --> 00:07:10.872 you're like, 156 00:07:11.412 --> 00:07:12.132 I mean, 157 00:07:12.372 --> 00:07:13.693 there is something broken. 158 00:07:13.933 --> 00:07:16.093 How do we unbreak this in a way? 159 00:07:16.774 --> 00:07:21.415 So that's where the community can really help finding the right people. 160 00:07:22.555 --> 00:07:24.136 And I think that's exactly it. 161 00:07:24.676 --> 00:07:24.916 You know, 162 00:07:25.036 --> 00:07:29.017 we talk about grid infrastructure and heat structure 163 00:07:29.537 --> 00:07:32.198 But I don't think we talk about trust as infrastructure. 164 00:07:33.239 --> 00:07:33.479 I do. 165 00:07:33.539 --> 00:07:40.383 And if we've got this problem at the moment that households do not trust the system, 166 00:07:41.564 --> 00:07:47.347 this is going to be that quiet enemy of transition in a way. 167 00:07:47.967 --> 00:07:54.190 And it was really luxurious to be able to experiment very early on to see if, 168 00:07:54.691 --> 00:07:54.931 you know, 169 00:07:55.051 --> 00:07:56.672 micro levels of trust. 170 00:07:57.512 --> 00:07:58.753 because some people say it. 171 00:07:58.933 --> 00:08:01.334 think it's still a micro level I'm working on, 172 00:08:01.755 --> 00:08:02.875 but does that grow? 173 00:08:03.235 --> 00:08:04.636 Has that got potential? 174 00:08:05.236 --> 00:08:07.538 Does that create more transparency? 175 00:08:08.178 --> 00:08:08.838 And then obviously, 176 00:08:09.058 --> 00:08:09.339 you know, 177 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:11.080 there's nothing more powerful. 178 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:12.100 For example, 179 00:08:12.200 --> 00:08:12.440 you know, 180 00:08:12.500 --> 00:08:12.700 let's, 181 00:08:12.961 --> 00:08:13.201 you know, 182 00:08:13.561 --> 00:08:17.003 we've got challenges over heat pumps and understanding heat pumps. 183 00:08:17.583 --> 00:08:17.783 But, 184 00:08:17.943 --> 00:08:18.183 you know, 185 00:08:18.624 --> 00:08:18.744 if, 186 00:08:18.784 --> 00:08:20.345 for example, 187 00:08:20.346 --> 00:08:23.426 and we know retrofit is really cognitively heavy at the moment, 188 00:08:23.427 --> 00:08:23.666 you know, 189 00:08:23.706 --> 00:08:26.668 people are talking about heat loss calculations and sequencing, 190 00:08:26.669 --> 00:08:28.249 it's really overwhelming. 191 00:08:28.897 --> 00:08:29.177 But if 192 00:08:29.698 --> 00:08:36.063 10 other women recognize themselves in one person's solution, 193 00:08:37.484 --> 00:08:40.907 does that have some exponential power in it? 194 00:08:41.807 --> 00:08:43.649 And does that reduce fear? 195 00:08:43.829 --> 00:08:47.372 Is that enough for those 10 women, 196 00:08:47.952 --> 00:08:48.193 you know, 197 00:08:48.433 --> 00:08:52.496 hopefully the future hundreds of women to see one woman's journey in their own, 198 00:08:53.357 --> 00:08:56.820 reflected in their own life enough to make them go, 199 00:08:57.580 --> 00:08:57.720 yeah, 200 00:08:57.780 --> 00:08:58.581 this means something. 201 00:08:59.301 --> 00:08:59.921 to me now. 202 00:09:01.262 --> 00:09:04.023 I'm not sort of frightened about this next step. 203 00:09:05.183 --> 00:09:06.143 That's extremely interesting. 204 00:09:06.923 --> 00:09:07.784 Recently on the pod, 205 00:09:08.004 --> 00:09:08.704 we had 206 00:09:09.224 --> 00:09:09.924 Sean Lyle, 207 00:09:10.084 --> 00:09:14.266 who spoke about behavioral sciences and, 208 00:09:15.166 --> 00:09:15.446 you know, 209 00:09:15.466 --> 00:09:17.787 kind of data to make sure that we, 210 00:09:18.287 --> 00:09:19.307 like policymakers, 211 00:09:19.427 --> 00:09:22.248 reach people where they actually are. 212 00:09:22.668 --> 00:09:25.569 And when you design energy policy or when you design an energy 213 00:09:25.869 --> 00:09:26.009 Well, 214 00:09:26.069 --> 00:09:26.809 in his case, 215 00:09:26.829 --> 00:09:28.470 it was more about energy service, 216 00:09:28.790 --> 00:09:35.732 but you really reach people where they are and not where you kind of imagine them in this ideal place. 217 00:09:36.412 --> 00:09:37.652 And indeed, 218 00:09:37.773 --> 00:09:38.373 so far, 219 00:09:38.993 --> 00:09:40.893 like they are when we talk, 220 00:09:41.154 --> 00:09:41.454 let's say, 221 00:09:41.574 --> 00:09:42.194 renovation. 222 00:09:42.814 --> 00:09:43.174 First, 223 00:09:43.454 --> 00:09:49.896 we miss that it's happening in people's home where probably the decision maker is a woman. 224 00:09:50.416 --> 00:09:51.477 But at the same time, 225 00:09:51.937 --> 00:09:52.957 like the point of... 226 00:09:53.757 --> 00:09:54.358 departure, 227 00:09:54.458 --> 00:10:00.863 like the starting point is not like tailored to their item needs. 228 00:10:01.123 --> 00:10:08.168 And what you manage to do is kind of reverse and generate this challenge and say, 229 00:10:08.309 --> 00:10:08.569 okay, 230 00:10:08.809 --> 00:10:09.870 let's start with the community. 231 00:10:09.950 --> 00:10:14.453 Let's start by showing that it works and that you can learn from peers without, 232 00:10:14.894 --> 00:10:19.237 you can be in a safe space where you are neither a kind of 233 00:10:19.751 --> 00:10:28.435 micromanaged or you're neither taken for granted for what you can actually deliver. 234 00:10:28.456 --> 00:10:37.939 So that's so many different starting points and objectives that really translate into something so intimate, 235 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:40.920 like home is like the foundations of our lives. 236 00:10:40.981 --> 00:10:41.101 And 237 00:10:41.861 --> 00:10:42.221 I mean, 238 00:10:43.101 --> 00:10:46.342 there is this aspect that I think you're also passionate about. 239 00:10:46.502 --> 00:10:48.504 It's linked to women's health. 240 00:10:48.543 --> 00:10:48.784 I mean, 241 00:10:48.923 --> 00:10:53.785 some people need to renovate their home also because their home have made them sick. 242 00:10:54.466 --> 00:10:56.787 So there is this issue of indoor air quality, 243 00:10:57.128 --> 00:10:59.148 of bad cooking habits, 244 00:10:59.268 --> 00:11:01.828 about cleaning and the materials around us. 245 00:11:01.869 --> 00:11:05.431 So you're able to offer a platform that covers all of this. 246 00:11:05.591 --> 00:11:07.012 And I think it's pretty awesome. 247 00:11:08.692 --> 00:11:10.393 I believe in it wholeheartedly. 248 00:11:10.873 --> 00:11:15.995 And we know women obviously are already big decision makers in the health, 249 00:11:16.075 --> 00:11:17.916 but the health really hits. 250 00:11:18.075 --> 00:11:18.856 home as well. 251 00:11:19.556 --> 00:11:23.919 We know there's indoor air quality issues still not fully understood by women. 252 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:24.700 You know, 253 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:26.721 it's a bit cliche to say it's all to do with the cooking, 254 00:11:26.741 --> 00:11:28.202 the cleaning and the products we use, 255 00:11:28.262 --> 00:11:29.323 but it is. 256 00:11:29.443 --> 00:11:32.106 And we're predominantly those people using them. 257 00:11:33.026 --> 00:11:33.246 Then, 258 00:11:33.526 --> 00:11:33.786 you know, 259 00:11:33.846 --> 00:11:34.867 we spend 90% 260 00:11:34.868 --> 00:11:35.848 of our time indoors. 261 00:11:35.868 --> 00:11:43.333 And that actually was why I got really deeply involved during COVID because of the idea that the home, 262 00:11:43.893 --> 00:11:45.815 it shifted the importance of the home. 263 00:11:46.384 --> 00:11:47.565 as well at the same time. 264 00:11:47.664 --> 00:11:51.948 So we're not only working from home now so much more than we ever have. 265 00:11:53.990 --> 00:11:54.130 And, 266 00:11:54.149 --> 00:11:54.411 you know, 267 00:11:54.412 --> 00:11:56.052 we can look at all the data, 268 00:11:56.091 --> 00:11:57.813 the WHO guidelines on gas cooking, 269 00:11:57.894 --> 00:11:58.034 etc. 270 00:11:58.313 --> 00:12:01.637 And why moving from gas to electric is also fundamentally important. 271 00:12:01.677 --> 00:12:04.298 But I think when we talk about retrofit as well, 272 00:12:04.379 --> 00:12:07.601 I wanted to talk about the air that women and children are breathing, 273 00:12:08.903 --> 00:12:14.767 make the technology feel more human in the fact that it has, 274 00:12:15.087 --> 00:12:15.327 you know, 275 00:12:15.655 --> 00:12:19.518 health and physical interventions that are really important. 276 00:12:19.538 --> 00:12:20.879 How do you translate that? 277 00:12:21.599 --> 00:12:27.063 Rather than make women feel they have to go and commit to this technology they don't fully understand. 278 00:12:27.383 --> 00:12:28.424 And it's interesting, 279 00:12:28.425 --> 00:12:29.545 you talked about sequencing. 280 00:12:29.546 --> 00:12:34.428 It made me think about something that was a kind of unexpected benefit, 281 00:12:35.089 --> 00:12:38.111 is the real challenge we have in retrofit is sequencing. 282 00:12:38.131 --> 00:12:38.391 You know, 283 00:12:38.591 --> 00:12:44.155 what is going to be the entry point for a homeowner starting this project and how we going to hook into that? 284 00:12:44.635 --> 00:12:46.577 Is it going to be the fact they're renovating their home? 285 00:12:47.056 --> 00:12:49.877 Is carbon and energy efficiency going to be at the forefront? 286 00:12:49.957 --> 00:12:51.157 Is health going to be at the forefront? 287 00:12:51.777 --> 00:12:55.138 And then even if you choose one of those and you've got enough research and evidence, 288 00:12:55.618 --> 00:12:58.199 it still doesn't quite fit a homeowner's moment. 289 00:12:58.699 --> 00:13:01.601 They have that light bulb moment that this is something they want to go down. 290 00:13:02.400 --> 00:13:11.163 But that's where I thought if we're talking about renovation and it's already the intention of a person to do a renovation, 291 00:13:11.856 --> 00:13:15.218 then how do we make them aware of how much more it could be? 292 00:13:16.460 --> 00:13:24.126 And then what's really interesting about a community where the sequencing isn't dictated because everyone in there is at different stages. 293 00:13:24.787 --> 00:13:26.269 We've got a woman who recently joined. 294 00:13:26.328 --> 00:13:28.510 She's six months away from starting her project. 295 00:13:28.551 --> 00:13:31.053 So she's just wanting to immerse herself, 296 00:13:31.153 --> 00:13:32.254 see where people are at. 297 00:13:32.934 --> 00:13:38.500 And she's obviously going to gain from realizing there's lots of thoughts she hadn't had. 298 00:13:39.272 --> 00:13:43.916 While there's somebody who joined much later on who's actually already finished a considerable deep retrofit, 299 00:13:44.356 --> 00:13:44.615 you know, 300 00:13:44.696 --> 00:13:45.437 years later. 301 00:13:45.977 --> 00:13:47.899 But this is still phase one for them. 302 00:13:48.259 --> 00:13:49.861 They still have a phase two. 303 00:13:50.721 --> 00:13:51.422 Do we ever stop, 304 00:13:51.702 --> 00:13:51.942 you know, 305 00:13:52.022 --> 00:13:53.404 renovating retrofit our homes? 306 00:13:53.484 --> 00:13:53.964 Probably not. 307 00:13:54.163 --> 00:13:55.524 It's an ongoing maintenance. 308 00:13:56.046 --> 00:13:56.226 But, 309 00:13:56.486 --> 00:13:56.745 you know, 310 00:13:56.806 --> 00:13:58.668 they still want to stay up to date. 311 00:13:59.188 --> 00:14:08.456 So I really love the fact that the community got rid of the pressure of sequencing and having to have a starting point. 312 00:14:09.459 --> 00:14:24.630 as your only portal of entry because you're literally going to fall flat with thousands of people if the one message you're saying at that point in time is supposed to work for them we kind of got rid of that and then it's 313 00:14:24.690 --> 00:14:38.119 really powerful things like we have these community deep dives where people are like at a critical point and they're like oh my god i'm going to make a big decision we do a 30 minute with them everyone can join in everyone can watch everyone can listen 314 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:39.140 And everyone, 315 00:14:39.481 --> 00:14:40.380 without any doubt, 316 00:14:40.541 --> 00:14:41.161 comes away, 317 00:14:41.881 --> 00:14:42.322 okay, 318 00:14:42.482 --> 00:14:42.683 right, 319 00:14:42.702 --> 00:14:44.043 I didn't know I had to think about this. 320 00:14:44.603 --> 00:14:44.803 Okay, 321 00:14:44.823 --> 00:14:46.144 that's another thing to add. 322 00:14:46.606 --> 00:15:00.954 And there's another thing as well that I found really interesting is a lot of coaching tools and process tools that we provide to people going through projects is very... 323 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:03.201 You know, 324 00:15:04.521 --> 00:15:12.165 we have project tools and organizational tools and a lot of those women are incredibly good at organizing themselves. 325 00:15:12.866 --> 00:15:15.847 There will be one woman who will have six files on a shelf, 326 00:15:16.027 --> 00:15:17.708 all color coordinated with tabs, 327 00:15:17.768 --> 00:15:17.888 A4. 328 00:15:18.789 --> 00:15:25.713 And there will be another woman who is using a Remarkable or a tablet and she will be storing everything with folders and Pinterest folders, 329 00:15:25.793 --> 00:15:26.293 LinkedIn. 330 00:15:26.373 --> 00:15:26.533 And, 331 00:15:26.933 --> 00:15:27.234 you know, 332 00:15:27.334 --> 00:15:29.555 and there will be other women who will do it all by paper. 333 00:15:30.055 --> 00:15:31.276 But it doesn't matter. 334 00:15:31.536 --> 00:15:31.656 will 335 00:15:31.876 --> 00:15:47.240 all be just as organized as each other they will all have the system that works in their head for their life for their schedules for their family and we didn't want to provide those tools we're not like here you go here's how you manage your project from beginning to end so 336 00:15:47.800 --> 00:15:56.103 you know things like checklists are really powerful you know here you're about to employ a heat pump installer what are the questions i ask them you know what are the 337 00:15:56.503 --> 00:16:00.124 50 questions i ask them to make sure I haven't missed anything. 338 00:16:00.732 --> 00:16:08.254 That's more important than anything that women actually need as an organizational tool. 339 00:16:08.394 --> 00:16:08.514 So, 340 00:16:09.514 --> 00:16:09.674 yeah, 341 00:16:09.774 --> 00:16:19.077 it's really interesting to see what works and why things work and how they need content and conversations happen. 342 00:16:19.537 --> 00:16:21.038 And I think in six months time, 343 00:16:21.398 --> 00:16:26.639 the activities and the projects going on with the snapshot of women will be very different to how they were six months ago. 344 00:16:27.499 --> 00:16:27.679 Why? 345 00:16:28.319 --> 00:16:28.900 Because, 346 00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:29.740 again, 347 00:16:30.060 --> 00:16:30.180 it's... 348 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:35.481 all based on those six women doing a deep retrofit because they'll be of different ages, 349 00:16:35.561 --> 00:16:37.982 they'll be in different archetypes of property, 350 00:16:38.042 --> 00:16:39.663 they'll be in different regions of the UK, 351 00:16:40.303 --> 00:16:42.623 they'll have different council options, 352 00:16:43.204 --> 00:16:44.444 they'll have different, 353 00:16:45.044 --> 00:16:46.885 but they will still be doing a retrofit. 354 00:16:47.585 --> 00:16:49.185 But it will just be very, 355 00:16:49.265 --> 00:16:49.465 very, 356 00:16:49.605 --> 00:16:50.466 it's very unique. 357 00:16:50.506 --> 00:16:52.266 And that's another challenge, 358 00:16:52.346 --> 00:16:52.786 I think, 359 00:16:53.526 --> 00:16:57.227 that we're having is how to standardize, 360 00:16:57.728 --> 00:16:59.348 mass deliver. 361 00:17:00.096 --> 00:17:22.305 yeah when there are so many unique properties projects budgets yeah homes so that the community helps yeah yeah to do that yeah and uh you know if you apply for grants or stuff like that you may have municipal grants you may have national grants as well and that may change so you also need to 362 00:17:22.346 --> 00:17:28.088 kind of uh know how to navigate that and have the experience of someone who managed to do I mean I mean 363 00:17:28.368 --> 00:17:29.588 In EU policy now, 364 00:17:29.668 --> 00:17:30.849 there is this big, 365 00:17:31.089 --> 00:17:31.409 let's say, 366 00:17:31.549 --> 00:17:33.409 push for one-stop shops, 367 00:17:33.950 --> 00:17:39.431 which would be spaces that aim to fill the kind of renovation gaps, 368 00:17:39.751 --> 00:17:41.032 knowing where to go, 369 00:17:41.572 --> 00:17:42.572 who to apply, 370 00:17:43.292 --> 00:17:44.593 how to apply and so on. 371 00:17:44.673 --> 00:17:47.373 But it's true that overall, 372 00:17:47.553 --> 00:17:50.094 they are designed in a very, 373 00:17:51.074 --> 00:17:51.414 let's say, 374 00:17:51.534 --> 00:17:53.315 gender blind way. 375 00:17:53.775 --> 00:17:54.475 they are not really, 376 00:17:55.135 --> 00:17:57.096 they may be designed for like the. 377 00:17:57.616 --> 00:17:59.617 population for the city, 378 00:17:59.677 --> 00:18:00.217 for the town, 379 00:18:00.257 --> 00:18:00.397 etc. 380 00:18:01.057 --> 00:18:09.981 But they may not be designed with the kind of unique needs and approach that women of different age category, 381 00:18:10.361 --> 00:18:12.142 stage of life have. 382 00:18:12.242 --> 00:18:12.442 Like, 383 00:18:13.122 --> 00:18:13.282 if 384 00:18:13.843 --> 00:18:18.064 I am a young person who doesn't have kids, 385 00:18:18.144 --> 00:18:22.466 but have a very small budget and is ready to spend all my weekends doing retrofit, 386 00:18:22.606 --> 00:18:26.928 it's different than if I am someone who has lived in the same house 387 00:18:27.108 --> 00:18:28.049 for like 388 00:18:28.489 --> 00:18:38.597 40 years and who's like a lantinester and who's really like tackling this as a project during her pension time, 389 00:18:38.637 --> 00:18:38.838 right? 390 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:40.079 So it's a very, 391 00:18:40.139 --> 00:18:42.180 very different moment in life. 392 00:18:42.741 --> 00:18:43.201 However, 393 00:18:43.842 --> 00:18:49.386 what seems quite certain is that there is a mental burden in starting, 394 00:18:49.606 --> 00:18:50.988 in continuing. 395 00:18:51.008 --> 00:18:51.688 And I mean, 396 00:18:51.689 --> 00:18:54.470 I love the idea of the checklist and knowing where, 397 00:18:54.831 --> 00:18:55.831 what the questions are. 398 00:18:56.012 --> 00:18:56.292 Yeah. 399 00:18:56.492 --> 00:18:56.712 I mean, 400 00:18:56.732 --> 00:19:04.417 there are also lots of data and experience showing that women are usually the ones who research, 401 00:19:04.478 --> 00:19:04.898 compare, 402 00:19:04.958 --> 00:19:08.340 anticipate and plan for making the, 403 00:19:08.941 --> 00:19:09.241 let's say, 404 00:19:09.301 --> 00:19:11.582 most sustainable choices in the home. 405 00:19:12.103 --> 00:19:19.448 So I would kind of expect the same thing to happen when it's about such a big family project such as retrofitting. 406 00:19:19.728 --> 00:19:20.729 Or renovating the home. 407 00:19:21.330 --> 00:19:21.570 I mean, 408 00:19:21.650 --> 00:19:23.953 we need to have a conversation about these two words as well, 409 00:19:23.973 --> 00:19:26.115 because I think it's, 410 00:19:26.295 --> 00:19:27.537 it can be confusing too. 411 00:19:27.637 --> 00:19:31.421 But you've been telling that there are some great examples. 412 00:19:31.461 --> 00:19:38.108 But what is the mindset of the people when they first reach out to you? 413 00:19:38.709 --> 00:19:41.152 Have they already like shown some? 414 00:19:41.808 --> 00:20:03.584 um signs of mental overload or or is it like and feel some relief or what i'm curious really it's fun it's funny you say that when people join uh they fill out a profile that shares everyone can see you know where they're living where they counsel their home but we have also five questions which are actually 415 00:20:03.585 --> 00:20:09.688 it's not five questions five options that really you take to show where you are emotionally in the project are you 416 00:20:09.888 --> 00:20:11.389 completely on top of things, 417 00:20:11.929 --> 00:20:12.250 you know, 418 00:20:12.670 --> 00:20:14.111 feeling excited, 419 00:20:14.531 --> 00:20:16.212 or are you completely overloaded? 420 00:20:16.693 --> 00:20:19.274 I can't off the top of my head remember exactly then, 421 00:20:19.454 --> 00:20:26.419 but we wanted to capture that emotional point of entry to see how they were feeling. 422 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:31.523 And also for people to feel like it was okay to say this is completely overwhelming, 423 00:20:31.524 --> 00:20:32.303 this is a disaster, 424 00:20:32.304 --> 00:20:33.164 I don't know where to start. 425 00:20:33.924 --> 00:20:37.186 Because emotions come into this and they should come into this. 426 00:20:37.867 --> 00:20:39.368 It's interesting because we don't 427 00:20:39.529 --> 00:20:41.166 advocate any specific 428 00:20:41.752 --> 00:21:02.021 route to retrofit we advocate standards you know obviously you know passive house standard benefit for example is you know the ultimate deep retrofit and we all know that's not accessible to everyone but at least people know what what options they have but there was another interesting you talked about a one-stop shops but 429 00:21:02.061 --> 00:21:09.124 it's interesting how good it can be for some of our homeowners will go through a one-stop shop because... 430 00:21:09.364 --> 00:21:26.118 we had one woman homeowner who really built a really good relationship with one of the owners of one of the employees of one stock shop who came in to assess really understood she felt really comfortable she asked the right questions she got the answer she needed and 431 00:21:26.679 --> 00:21:37.608 she doesn't want to manage the project she wants someone to manage the process for her and she's not doing any renovations she's living in a complicated actually tenement in Scotland for example I'm Michael. 432 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:38.901 with restrictions. 433 00:21:38.941 --> 00:21:42.385 So she needs someone who understands that type of property in the area, 434 00:21:42.585 --> 00:21:45.948 who could do all the works for her from, 435 00:21:46.328 --> 00:21:46.569 you know, 436 00:21:46.609 --> 00:21:49.852 fabric first measures and technology measures. 437 00:21:50.432 --> 00:21:51.193 And another thing, 438 00:21:51.834 --> 00:21:54.056 sorry if I'm skipping around so much to think about, 439 00:21:54.136 --> 00:22:02.164 which is I find another really interesting research point is we talk about women in the technology and there's a lot of 440 00:22:02.184 --> 00:22:04.445 perception that women in technology don't mix, 441 00:22:04.585 --> 00:22:07.327 which we need to kind of shake off a little bit. 442 00:22:08.988 --> 00:22:09.488 A little. 443 00:22:11.349 --> 00:22:14.171 And it's astounding how that exists. 444 00:22:14.231 --> 00:22:15.031 But actually, 445 00:22:15.051 --> 00:22:21.775 the research that I've read over the last few years is that women are actually the earlier adopters of technology. 446 00:22:22.515 --> 00:22:23.856 And the reason is, 447 00:22:24.436 --> 00:22:27.538 if technology works extremely well for them, 448 00:22:27.798 --> 00:22:28.919 they will jump on it, 449 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:31.280 they will use it to their I don't teach. 450 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:31.620 very, 451 00:22:31.700 --> 00:22:32.361 very quickly. 452 00:22:33.061 --> 00:22:34.483 If it does not work, 453 00:22:34.743 --> 00:22:39.987 whether that's the user interface or the technology doesn't live up to promises or it breaks or it fails, 454 00:22:40.568 --> 00:22:42.229 they will stop using it. 455 00:22:42.650 --> 00:22:47.474 The research actually shows that men will persevere with poor technology. 456 00:22:48.334 --> 00:22:49.155 They will fix, 457 00:22:49.275 --> 00:22:50.136 they will figure it, 458 00:22:50.176 --> 00:22:51.177 they will want it. 459 00:22:51.437 --> 00:22:52.078 Women are like, 460 00:22:52.198 --> 00:22:52.938 if this works, 461 00:22:53.259 --> 00:22:53.659 I'm done. 462 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:55.160 I'll be a doctor within 463 00:22:55.761 --> 00:22:56.662 24 hours. 464 00:22:57.102 --> 00:22:58.063 if this fails 465 00:22:58.883 --> 00:22:59.124 I'm I'm 466 00:22:59.684 --> 00:23:01.345 And obviously it's a very generalized view, 467 00:23:01.965 --> 00:23:03.526 but I found it really interesting. 468 00:23:03.986 --> 00:23:05.326 I totally recognize myself. 469 00:23:05.426 --> 00:23:07.427 Like I need to find solutions. 470 00:23:07.447 --> 00:23:08.608 If something doesn't deliver, 471 00:23:08.868 --> 00:23:09.788 like why should 472 00:23:10.128 --> 00:23:14.950 I keep my mental burden up with this kind of thing? 473 00:23:15.030 --> 00:23:15.351 I mean, 474 00:23:15.352 --> 00:23:16.211 it has to deliver. 475 00:23:16.411 --> 00:23:17.711 It has to have a system. 476 00:23:17.792 --> 00:23:19.532 It has to be efficient. 477 00:23:20.973 --> 00:23:28.316 That's really funny and really interesting also because whenever you join kind of industry events, 478 00:23:28.736 --> 00:23:31.418 And like policy event and things, 479 00:23:31.458 --> 00:23:32.179 as much as I do, 480 00:23:32.900 --> 00:23:36.262 many of the developers of this kind of project, 481 00:23:36.322 --> 00:23:37.103 infrastructure, 482 00:23:38.184 --> 00:23:39.005 technology and so on, 483 00:23:39.145 --> 00:23:40.666 are men who are never, 484 00:23:41.607 --> 00:23:42.207 and I mean, 485 00:23:42.208 --> 00:23:42.748 the women, 486 00:23:42.888 --> 00:23:48.232 and no one is even asking if a woman would be using something differently. 487 00:23:48.392 --> 00:23:50.354 Like it's, 488 00:23:50.694 --> 00:23:51.095 I don't know, 489 00:23:51.215 --> 00:23:53.597 I've been kind of circling around, 490 00:23:53.617 --> 00:23:54.137 for instance, 491 00:23:54.138 --> 00:23:56.559 the term renovation that, 492 00:23:56.999 --> 00:23:57.440 I don't know. 493 00:23:57.740 --> 00:24:13.250 please correct me but I associated more with decoration with something a little lighter like you renovate your bathroom you renovate your kitchen you renovate your living room to and 494 00:24:13.251 --> 00:24:26.780 you bring more plants or I don't know colors or whatever whereas retrofit you have this idea of okay let's get let's get things dirty and move everything around and and tear some walls and stuff like that. 495 00:24:26.860 --> 00:24:26.980 So, 496 00:24:27.300 --> 00:24:27.420 yeah, 497 00:24:27.600 --> 00:24:29.142 Maybe a little bit more, 498 00:24:29.762 --> 00:24:30.002 yeah, 499 00:24:30.883 --> 00:24:33.165 heavy-muscled thingy. 500 00:24:34.066 --> 00:24:34.747 It's true. 501 00:24:34.887 --> 00:24:35.247 Okay. 502 00:24:35.287 --> 00:24:35.688 It's true. 503 00:24:36.228 --> 00:24:46.238 It's very funny because we joked very early on when we built the community up several years ago that we don't show pretty pictures. 504 00:24:46.758 --> 00:24:47.039 You know, 505 00:24:47.159 --> 00:24:47.899 we're not showing. 506 00:24:48.080 --> 00:24:48.480 but but 507 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:48.1000 Actually, 508 00:24:49.040 --> 00:24:49.160 no, 509 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:50.541 I say that and there are women. 510 00:24:50.581 --> 00:24:51.121 They will show, 511 00:24:51.201 --> 00:24:51.421 you know, 512 00:24:51.461 --> 00:24:52.842 we show in kitchens afterwards, 513 00:24:52.882 --> 00:24:53.782 completed homes. 514 00:24:53.802 --> 00:24:56.764 That's definitely because it's wonderful to see that finished, 515 00:24:56.884 --> 00:24:58.804 especially if you've been on the journey. 516 00:24:59.565 --> 00:25:00.165 But it's true, 517 00:25:00.166 --> 00:25:02.566 the majority of pictures we show are, 518 00:25:03.667 --> 00:25:05.027 here's my underfloor insulation. 519 00:25:06.048 --> 00:25:07.608 Here's the reveal on my window. 520 00:25:08.709 --> 00:25:08.929 You know, 521 00:25:09.029 --> 00:25:10.149 the workman's just left. 522 00:25:10.970 --> 00:25:11.570 How do I, 523 00:25:11.830 --> 00:25:12.070 you know, 524 00:25:12.170 --> 00:25:14.671 so it's the bones of the property. 525 00:25:15.052 --> 00:25:15.252 Yeah. 526 00:25:16.088 --> 00:25:16.969 I also think, 527 00:25:17.169 --> 00:25:17.409 you know, 528 00:25:17.489 --> 00:25:24.335 there is an extraordinary amount of amazing content on interior decor and colours and, 529 00:25:24.495 --> 00:25:24.736 you know, 530 00:25:24.836 --> 00:25:25.276 choices. 531 00:25:25.756 --> 00:25:26.177 But also, 532 00:25:26.237 --> 00:25:31.621 I think one of our entry points of conversation very early on was actually also about paint. 533 00:25:32.282 --> 00:25:34.404 And paint was a really significant, 534 00:25:34.764 --> 00:25:36.886 interesting sustainability. 535 00:25:37.447 --> 00:25:41.910 Because if you consider the amount of surfaces your home is covered in paint, 536 00:25:42.551 --> 00:25:43.632 what does that mean? 537 00:25:43.892 --> 00:25:46.055 in terms of being a permeable paint, 538 00:25:46.516 --> 00:25:47.657 trapping moisture. 539 00:25:48.098 --> 00:25:55.949 That was a really interesting conversation that made women start to question what does sustainable paint and eco-paint actually mean? 540 00:25:58.330 --> 00:25:59.271 It was really much, 541 00:25:59.291 --> 00:25:59.511 you know, 542 00:26:00.192 --> 00:26:03.655 if you're using moisture permeable materials, 543 00:26:04.155 --> 00:26:06.257 actually you don't want to put the wrong paint on them. 544 00:26:06.817 --> 00:26:06.937 And, 545 00:26:06.977 --> 00:26:07.258 you know, 546 00:26:07.938 --> 00:26:10.741 if you're talking about VOCs and gassing, 547 00:26:10.841 --> 00:26:11.121 you know, 548 00:26:11.541 --> 00:26:13.323 what are the petrochemicals in this paint? 549 00:26:13.463 --> 00:26:14.264 How does it break down? 550 00:26:14.304 --> 00:26:15.465 How has it been manufactured? 551 00:26:16.165 --> 00:26:17.987 And there was suddenly a surge, 552 00:26:17.988 --> 00:26:18.187 you know, 553 00:26:18.327 --> 00:26:22.110 products that we've been really well marketed over the last few years, 554 00:26:23.011 --> 00:26:26.234 that there were easily 30 eco-focused paint options. 555 00:26:27.659 --> 00:26:32.262 And that was a really nice kind of conversation starter on what retrofit means. 556 00:26:32.362 --> 00:26:38.186 It actually could be taken all the way through to materials matter. 557 00:26:38.766 --> 00:26:41.508 And then women were asking about insulative wallpaper. 558 00:26:42.089 --> 00:26:43.029 Does that work? 559 00:26:43.129 --> 00:26:44.971 Am I trapping moisture? 560 00:26:44.972 --> 00:26:45.971 Am I causing damp? 561 00:26:46.732 --> 00:26:50.034 And obviously the damp conversation is really important for women. 562 00:26:50.895 --> 00:26:51.015 So 563 00:26:51.715 --> 00:26:55.238 I think it's really important to have a place where that organic conversation can happen. 564 00:26:55.258 --> 00:26:55.558 Thank you. 565 00:26:56.014 --> 00:26:56.414 Yeah, 566 00:26:56.415 --> 00:26:58.975 and that there is no stupid question and it's really... 567 00:26:59.576 --> 00:27:00.056 Exactly. 568 00:27:00.076 --> 00:27:00.996 Yeah, 569 00:27:00.997 --> 00:27:01.116 yeah. 570 00:27:01.376 --> 00:27:01.496 No, 571 00:27:01.917 --> 00:27:03.497 that's very interesting also because 572 00:27:04.158 --> 00:27:06.398 I think that circles back to the idea of trust. 573 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:10.700 Like you see brands advertising, 574 00:27:10.780 --> 00:27:13.101 you see influencers advertising, 575 00:27:13.141 --> 00:27:15.262 but you never have this kind of real, 576 00:27:15.582 --> 00:27:15.822 raw, 577 00:27:16.143 --> 00:27:16.843 honest, 578 00:27:17.283 --> 00:27:19.304 unfiltered conversation, 579 00:27:19.384 --> 00:27:19.584 right? 580 00:27:19.604 --> 00:27:23.846 Because we are talking very much about virtual spaces where we can find... 581 00:27:25.403 --> 00:27:28.785 Some people who are just like-minded in a way. 582 00:27:28.925 --> 00:27:31.667 And it's like this return on experience. 583 00:27:32.227 --> 00:27:33.488 It's totally gold. 584 00:27:34.109 --> 00:27:40.713 Have you worked with some brands to make sure that this kind of feedback from your community goes to them? 585 00:27:41.454 --> 00:27:47.958 I would see it as one of the natural development and ways to develop your community and your own space. 586 00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:51.060 We want to be really careful. 587 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:52.241 At the very beginning, 588 00:27:52.461 --> 00:27:53.902 we worked with... 589 00:27:54.222 --> 00:28:09.909 graham stone uh for example we were really impressed i was really impressed with the product um but always very clear that if something better comes along we're not advocating only this product and um it 590 00:28:10.129 --> 00:28:10.790 was 591 00:28:12.294 --> 00:28:29.429 interesting after you started to delve into all the data and the science behind what actually was going on and it's really still hard even today to actually navigate that I don't have all the answers and that's what led me very much to ensure two things with this the 592 00:28:29.469 --> 00:28:38.737 work we do we're not sponsored we're not funded by anybody we're funded simply by the membership costs because if we're not serving the community, 593 00:28:39.397 --> 00:28:39.637 then... 594 00:28:40.586 --> 00:28:42.687 They speak for us in terms of what we do. 595 00:28:43.588 --> 00:28:44.388 It was really, 596 00:28:44.488 --> 00:28:57.094 really important to get rid of all the bias and all the sponsorship elements that go on in this space because that is what's causing a huge amount of stress for women homeowners. 597 00:28:57.654 --> 00:29:00.416 With the trades and the workmen who come in, 598 00:29:00.956 --> 00:29:01.917 are they affiliated? 599 00:29:02.057 --> 00:29:03.437 Are they always using this product? 600 00:29:03.537 --> 00:29:04.538 Are they getting a cut? 601 00:29:05.194 --> 00:29:05.454 You know, 602 00:29:06.034 --> 00:29:10.317 is my builder recommending something because they get a discount at the merchant store for this, 603 00:29:10.357 --> 00:29:10.697 you know? 604 00:29:11.217 --> 00:29:14.279 And that is causing a lot of fear around trust. 605 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:16.720 So what we wanted was to be very, 606 00:29:16.780 --> 00:29:22.343 very clear from the beginning that our code of conduct would never push a product on them, 607 00:29:22.423 --> 00:29:24.004 would never promote a product. 608 00:29:24.485 --> 00:29:28.987 And we had no affiliation whatsoever with any product that we think is a good option. 609 00:29:30.148 --> 00:29:31.148 We have other things, 610 00:29:31.208 --> 00:29:31.468 you know, 611 00:29:31.488 --> 00:29:32.789 if you recommend something, 612 00:29:32.809 --> 00:29:34.230 we said to the women in the space, 613 00:29:34.718 --> 00:29:38.419 You have to have used it and you have to be able to explain why it worked for you. 614 00:29:39.379 --> 00:29:43.100 Because you can't stop people recommending things that are working for them. 615 00:29:43.541 --> 00:29:48.362 But we just want to eliminate any of that promotion going on and marketing and advertising going on. 616 00:29:48.802 --> 00:29:53.843 Because it's a really exhausting thread that runs through when you're trying to get the right answers. 617 00:29:56.604 --> 00:29:58.205 And then it also lasts for agility. 618 00:29:58.485 --> 00:29:59.665 Because in this market, 619 00:29:59.745 --> 00:30:00.825 there's new products, 620 00:30:01.005 --> 00:30:02.626 new materials all the time. 621 00:30:03.230 --> 00:30:04.871 new technology coming up. 622 00:30:05.471 --> 00:30:16.037 I think it's really short-sighted to be stuck on recommending a product when we need the retrofit industry to shift and innovate all the time and get better all the time. 623 00:30:17.018 --> 00:30:20.940 So it was more about creating a space for good, 624 00:30:21.020 --> 00:30:22.120 trusted advice. 625 00:30:22.481 --> 00:30:22.601 And, 626 00:30:22.602 --> 00:30:22.841 you know, 627 00:30:22.842 --> 00:30:24.782 if someone reaches out and said, 628 00:30:24.862 --> 00:30:25.742 I'm looking for, 629 00:30:26.303 --> 00:30:26.823 for example, 630 00:30:26.843 --> 00:30:27.904 extract a fan, 631 00:30:28.104 --> 00:30:32.266 has anyone found one this the conversation is yes i've just actually i've 632 00:30:32.546 --> 00:30:33.826 This is what mine looks like. 633 00:30:34.187 --> 00:30:36.067 But the conversation is also about performance. 634 00:30:36.147 --> 00:30:38.468 What's your extraction performance? 635 00:30:38.469 --> 00:30:39.268 Is it ducting out? 636 00:30:39.788 --> 00:30:40.528 Is it a nice, 637 00:30:40.588 --> 00:30:41.349 clean duct? 638 00:30:42.369 --> 00:30:47.830 And then all the other additional important aspects can be threaded in quite quickly. 639 00:30:48.871 --> 00:30:49.851 Because as you said, 640 00:30:50.591 --> 00:30:55.133 women tend to be very good at becoming professionals before they choose things as well. 641 00:30:55.793 --> 00:30:57.653 The level of research is there. 642 00:30:58.333 --> 00:31:00.094 They don't make decisions hastily. 643 00:31:00.778 --> 00:31:02.399 And the research they do is thorough. 644 00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:11.262 And what's interesting is there's probably a lot of people who have a perception of the level of retrofit or thinking or conversations going on in a space like this. 645 00:31:12.083 --> 00:31:12.243 And, 646 00:31:12.363 --> 00:31:12.623 you know, 647 00:31:12.783 --> 00:31:13.203 granted, 648 00:31:13.303 --> 00:31:24.347 even I was surprised at the level of knowledge that a lot of women had joining who were doing some very complicated technical decision making, 649 00:31:25.628 --> 00:31:27.489 who were able to have very, 650 00:31:27.609 --> 00:31:30.270 very complicated conversations on things. 651 00:31:30.670 --> 00:31:33.352 This is not just at the level. 652 00:31:34.112 --> 00:31:35.914 And I think we have to be careful as a whole. 653 00:31:35.915 --> 00:31:38.275 The retrofit industry doesn't patronize consumers. 654 00:31:40.177 --> 00:31:41.938 And that was what was also really interesting. 655 00:31:41.939 --> 00:31:42.358 As I said, 656 00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:46.121 to see the level they had before they came in was high. 657 00:31:47.141 --> 00:31:48.022 And granted, 658 00:31:48.042 --> 00:31:54.206 there are still women coming in who are starting from scratch and just thinking about things and knowing this matters, 659 00:31:54.266 --> 00:31:55.267 but not sure how. 660 00:31:56.448 --> 00:31:59.950 But that experience and knowledge. 661 00:32:00.070 --> 00:32:18.402 grows very very very quickly yeah and we have women on their second retrofit already oh wow yeah that's an interesting again who would know that's that's that's really interesting i'm kind of curious uh if you have uh 662 00:32:18.563 --> 00:32:26.628 the kind of most let's say unexpected or more most unusual questions or like community debates you ever had, 663 00:32:26.688 --> 00:32:29.510 like that led you to this kind of 664 00:32:29.690 --> 00:32:30.410 aha moment, 665 00:32:30.550 --> 00:32:32.991 it is not what I was expecting at all, 666 00:32:33.552 --> 00:32:34.612 like really. 667 00:32:35.112 --> 00:32:38.714 I think it kind of comes back to the level of knowledge was interesting. 668 00:32:39.714 --> 00:32:46.057 What was really useful to see as well was with adopting technology, 669 00:32:46.998 --> 00:32:48.838 when women found that technology, 670 00:32:49.239 --> 00:32:49.499 you know, 671 00:32:49.999 --> 00:32:50.399 heat pump, 672 00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:50.839 solar, 673 00:32:50.859 --> 00:32:51.380 for example, 674 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:52.240 working really, 675 00:32:52.320 --> 00:32:52.960 really well, 676 00:32:53.941 --> 00:32:56.842 they were as good as anybody in terms of understanding it. 677 00:32:57.278 --> 00:32:59.420 understanding how it was working using the technology, 678 00:32:59.520 --> 00:33:00.661 using the user interface, 679 00:33:01.601 --> 00:33:10.408 and became really quickly advocates and technical advisors themselves back to the women in the space. 680 00:33:11.028 --> 00:33:13.150 And it's interesting. 681 00:33:14.030 --> 00:33:15.271 moment where 682 00:33:15.871 --> 00:33:38.200 I honestly got a bit of cold feet at the beginning because what I worried was is how do you create a space with integrity in terms of the advice that's shared and also is there an ethical issue about professional advice with women sharing advice without professional involvement to 683 00:33:38.420 --> 00:33:43.062 enough of a degree you know it comes to building work and I had several women saying you should not 684 00:33:43.202 --> 00:33:52.306 allow a space like this you know this woman's giving the wrong advice to this woman and I was like how do you manage that how do you how do you so 685 00:33:53.126 --> 00:34:08.572 I was really really lucky very very early on and I'll give a shout out to her Sarah Shooter she's a construction lawyer in the industry she joined really early on and I'll admit I was like oh terrified oh she's going to say what are you doing all this professional advice going on and 686 00:34:08.892 --> 00:34:12.414 she really knows her her stuff from a legal point perspective. 687 00:34:13.022 --> 00:34:14.162 And from day one, 688 00:34:14.163 --> 00:34:15.263 she was the biggest advocate. 689 00:34:15.323 --> 00:34:15.883 And she said, 690 00:34:15.963 --> 00:34:18.283 because what you're doing is risk managing, 691 00:34:18.544 --> 00:34:22.365 reducing the risk for people to make the wrong mistakes. 692 00:34:22.425 --> 00:34:29.366 You're giving them a chance to actually avoid disputes and terrible decision making. 693 00:34:30.107 --> 00:34:32.807 And that in itself is so valuable. 694 00:34:33.267 --> 00:34:33.728 And she said, 695 00:34:33.748 --> 00:34:37.289 as long as you're very clear in terms and conditions and, 696 00:34:37.749 --> 00:34:38.069 you know, 697 00:34:38.649 --> 00:34:39.409 for example, 698 00:34:39.469 --> 00:34:39.629 that, 699 00:34:39.849 --> 00:34:40.089 you know, 700 00:34:40.289 --> 00:34:42.330 please get professional advice. 701 00:34:42.818 --> 00:34:44.239 When you're making key decisions, 702 00:34:44.319 --> 00:34:45.420 please sense check this, 703 00:34:45.500 --> 00:34:46.241 for example. 704 00:34:46.742 --> 00:34:47.262 Unfortunately, 705 00:34:47.263 --> 00:34:47.462 you know, 706 00:34:47.702 --> 00:34:49.884 we have to protect ourselves in case anyone says, 707 00:34:49.944 --> 00:34:50.865 but this was wrong. 708 00:34:51.486 --> 00:34:54.829 But the benefit is so much greater than the risk. 709 00:34:55.609 --> 00:34:58.612 And that's what gave us the reassurance to kind of carry on. 710 00:34:59.152 --> 00:34:59.853 And women are, 711 00:35:00.474 --> 00:35:00.734 you know, 712 00:35:00.854 --> 00:35:02.515 women are extremely aware of this. 713 00:35:02.976 --> 00:35:03.236 You know, 714 00:35:03.276 --> 00:35:05.078 they're not going to make big decisions based, 715 00:35:05.098 --> 00:35:08.781 but at least they have an awareness of what decision options they have. 716 00:35:09.141 --> 00:35:09.642 Yeah. 717 00:35:09.702 --> 00:35:09.822 Yeah. 718 00:35:10.186 --> 00:35:14.290 What question maybe do I need to ask on this then in case this is the wrong route? 719 00:35:14.990 --> 00:35:16.271 And yeah, 720 00:35:16.311 --> 00:35:16.532 I mean, 721 00:35:16.592 --> 00:35:19.674 that's already such an enormous gap that you are filling, 722 00:35:19.774 --> 00:35:23.378 like making sure they know the options and, 723 00:35:23.398 --> 00:35:23.658 you know, 724 00:35:23.718 --> 00:35:33.446 they have the tools to really identify what looks okay from what looks a little dodgy. 725 00:35:34.267 --> 00:35:35.168 So yeah, 726 00:35:35.288 --> 00:35:37.350 that's exactly what... 727 00:35:38.070 --> 00:35:39.331 Some platforms are trying to do. 728 00:35:39.471 --> 00:35:40.411 And I mean, 729 00:35:40.492 --> 00:35:48.976 that's probably one of the concerns that I have with the one-stop shops that wouldn't like in the way they are designed and the aim they are for, 730 00:35:49.136 --> 00:35:51.297 since they are a kind of institutional tools, 731 00:35:51.958 --> 00:35:54.499 they have to deliver only like 100% 732 00:35:55.580 --> 00:35:57.521 checked out options. 733 00:35:58.421 --> 00:36:04.424 So maybe they will miss on the informal brainstorming, 734 00:36:04.564 --> 00:36:07.206 checking the options approach because... 735 00:36:07.666 --> 00:36:25.934 they just can't do this right it's hard the mass rollout of retrofit is really really difficult as we know from the schemes of the past that haven't lasted or you know we know from quality assurance risks over the last few years what's gone wrong and 736 00:36:26.154 --> 00:36:35.478 i think that's what we also want to be as a warning space because we don't you know it's a real shame at the moment that there is 737 00:36:36.142 --> 00:36:39.343 this negative perception on so many aspects of retrofit, 738 00:36:39.703 --> 00:36:43.924 whether it's technology or the fabric measure errors going wrong through Eco4. 739 00:36:44.744 --> 00:36:44.984 You know, 740 00:36:45.165 --> 00:36:45.585 that's why, 741 00:36:45.625 --> 00:36:45.865 again, 742 00:36:45.965 --> 00:36:50.186 trust has got to be a really important infrastructure thought process in all of this. 743 00:36:50.786 --> 00:36:51.026 You know, 744 00:36:51.027 --> 00:36:53.007 we don't want to leave thousands of households, 745 00:36:53.707 --> 00:36:54.087 again, 746 00:36:54.247 --> 00:36:56.888 in a position where there's no consistency. 747 00:36:57.588 --> 00:36:58.308 And that's the thing, 748 00:36:58.388 --> 00:37:04.790 how do you mass rollout and still give people the tools to make thousands of 749 00:37:05.398 --> 00:37:20.442 unique positions and decisions on their own property is really important and you know I don't have honestly the answer on what would be the ideal end result 750 00:37:21.262 --> 00:37:34.646 I mean that's a very simplistic question does everyone need to be passive house do we just need to get heat pumps in to every single home and I'm certainly not in the position to know the answer to that 751 00:37:35.366 --> 00:37:36.247 But if 752 00:37:36.848 --> 00:37:42.693 I can see an opportunity to fix something you said, 753 00:37:42.733 --> 00:37:42.933 Maya, 754 00:37:42.934 --> 00:37:44.354 in a blind spot in this, 755 00:37:45.375 --> 00:37:47.357 that it's got to be human-centered. 756 00:37:48.258 --> 00:37:57.626 And we mustn't underestimate the innovation in human-centered approaches is a thing. 757 00:37:58.166 --> 00:37:59.367 It is actually a thing. 758 00:37:59.788 --> 00:38:01.049 A lot of people will argue, 759 00:38:01.129 --> 00:38:02.150 but your communities. 760 00:38:02.590 --> 00:38:03.851 A community is not a product. 761 00:38:03.891 --> 00:38:04.731 It's not a business. 762 00:38:05.732 --> 00:38:08.674 I would argue the complete opposite at the moment with the world we're in. 763 00:38:09.514 --> 00:38:09.634 Yeah, 764 00:38:09.694 --> 00:38:10.935 because you learn from your peers, 765 00:38:10.995 --> 00:38:11.655 right? 766 00:38:11.656 --> 00:38:11.915 Yes. 767 00:38:12.156 --> 00:38:15.277 And it's extremely important and impactful and tangible. 768 00:38:15.878 --> 00:38:16.138 You know, 769 00:38:16.139 --> 00:38:18.579 we just have to look like organizations like 770 00:38:19.240 --> 00:38:21.321 Mumsnet several decades ago. 771 00:38:21.521 --> 00:38:23.842 And power developed to swing, 772 00:38:24.462 --> 00:38:24.703 you know, 773 00:38:24.783 --> 00:38:25.263 voting. 774 00:38:26.203 --> 00:38:26.404 Yeah. 775 00:38:27.024 --> 00:38:29.425 Not a bad thing at a time like this. 776 00:38:30.086 --> 00:38:30.206 So. 777 00:38:30.870 --> 00:38:31.492 You never know. 778 00:38:31.592 --> 00:38:33.697 You never know when the next really innovative, 779 00:38:34.319 --> 00:38:36.604 human-centered solution is going to come up. 780 00:38:37.386 --> 00:38:38.689 We have to be open to that. 781 00:38:39.495 --> 00:38:39.635 Yeah, 782 00:38:39.795 --> 00:38:40.876 that's really important, 783 00:38:40.996 --> 00:38:42.577 like the power of the community. 784 00:38:43.037 --> 00:38:43.257 I mean, 785 00:38:43.337 --> 00:38:45.578 we are reaching the end of this podcast. 786 00:38:45.598 --> 00:38:47.599 It's been so interesting and so informative. 787 00:38:47.619 --> 00:38:51.342 I'm really so excited that it's released on the week of the Sustainable 788 00:38:52.862 --> 00:38:54.103 International Women's Day. 789 00:38:54.443 --> 00:38:54.603 Yeah. 790 00:38:54.984 --> 00:38:56.104 One last question for you. 791 00:38:56.584 --> 00:38:57.985 If institutions, 792 00:38:58.025 --> 00:38:58.365 I mean, 793 00:38:58.606 --> 00:38:59.106 policy, 794 00:38:59.366 --> 00:39:00.286 policymakers, 795 00:39:00.366 --> 00:39:06.750 markets really took the time to assess the lessons from her own space seriously, 796 00:39:08.051 --> 00:39:08.571 What would... 797 00:39:08.691 --> 00:39:13.992 they need to rethink about how retrofit or renovation is designed and supported. 798 00:39:15.453 --> 00:39:31.697 I think one of the most understood elements that we need to thread through is how humans interact with retrofit. 799 00:39:32.558 --> 00:39:35.138 This is not consumer research. 800 00:39:35.218 --> 00:39:36.219 We have to be very, 801 00:39:36.299 --> 00:39:37.119 very careful. 802 00:39:37.895 --> 00:39:39.176 Working several years ago, 803 00:39:39.676 --> 00:39:40.296 for example, 804 00:39:40.856 --> 00:39:42.397 with M&S and 805 00:39:42.797 --> 00:39:43.838 Rose at the time, 806 00:39:44.358 --> 00:39:49.040 they stopped doing customer research because of one really key finding and they were the biggest at it. 807 00:39:49.620 --> 00:39:50.420 Just for a period, 808 00:39:50.421 --> 00:39:50.760 they said, 809 00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:54.642 we've got people coming in who are really conscious about the climate, 810 00:39:54.643 --> 00:39:56.203 but they still want a parking space. 811 00:39:56.523 --> 00:39:56.843 I mean, 812 00:39:57.003 --> 00:40:00.244 we've got people who are coming in really concerned about their food and health, 813 00:40:00.644 --> 00:40:02.965 but they still want to buy a cream puff, 814 00:40:03.025 --> 00:40:03.326 you know, 815 00:40:03.366 --> 00:40:04.486 as they walk out the shop. 816 00:40:05.286 --> 00:40:06.707 We've got to be really careful. 817 00:40:07.087 --> 00:40:17.753 not to do too much consumer pigeonholing and actually understand that humans have the ability to have their minds changed, 818 00:40:17.754 --> 00:40:19.134 to understand things better. 819 00:40:19.694 --> 00:40:24.456 If well-designed innovation factors in their journey, 820 00:40:24.617 --> 00:40:26.097 their needs as individuals, 821 00:40:26.658 --> 00:40:29.799 we need to have a human-centered approach. 822 00:40:29.939 --> 00:40:32.001 I don't think people understand exactly what that is. 823 00:40:32.721 --> 00:40:35.142 I think we need to look at lots of other areas. 824 00:40:35.202 --> 00:40:36.283 We need to look at design. 825 00:40:36.791 --> 00:40:38.352 We need to look at the design industry, 826 00:40:38.432 --> 00:40:39.392 something I worked with. 827 00:40:39.752 --> 00:40:42.473 We need to look at design effectiveness more. 828 00:40:43.454 --> 00:40:45.715 We need to think about how to break things down. 829 00:40:46.075 --> 00:40:47.556 We need to look at neuroscience. 830 00:40:48.076 --> 00:40:59.241 I think there's loads of really interesting areas that other industries have used and utilised very powerfully that we may be missing as an industry. 831 00:40:59.721 --> 00:41:00.941 Because at the moment, 832 00:41:01.462 --> 00:41:03.923 solutions for retrofit become... 833 00:41:04.983 --> 00:41:21.374 empowered based on funding models that are designed to support innovation on things that are static in the sense that here's a product here's a solution this is how it'll work this is why it'll work and this is the impact it will have but 834 00:41:21.414 --> 00:41:34.343 what we don't allow for in that process is innovation that's agile that evolves that's experimental what if you you know you have a community innovation. 835 00:41:34.899 --> 00:41:38.782 And that's the lovely thing about working with her own space and not relying on funding. 836 00:41:39.123 --> 00:41:40.424 We don't have to look the same. 837 00:41:40.444 --> 00:41:41.865 We can evolve all the time. 838 00:41:41.985 --> 00:41:43.647 We can create content that changes. 839 00:41:44.187 --> 00:41:45.328 We can see a gap. 840 00:41:45.468 --> 00:41:46.549 We can see an opportunity. 841 00:41:47.390 --> 00:41:50.833 And that agility in businesses' 842 00:41:50.933 --> 00:41:52.974 technology isn't encouraged, 843 00:41:53.015 --> 00:41:55.697 supported or allowed in many senses. 844 00:41:56.618 --> 00:41:59.640 And then we're missing a trick because things become outdated. 845 00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:00.901 If they don't work, 846 00:42:00.981 --> 00:42:02.803 there's no model to shift that. 847 00:42:03.507 --> 00:42:19.483 It's a very interesting thought that I think we need to make sure is embedded in any innovation that gets funded and any solutions that get funded is that we allow a little bit of change and shift if they're not working to 848 00:42:19.603 --> 00:42:20.103 evolve them, 849 00:42:20.163 --> 00:42:20.864 improve them. 850 00:42:21.805 --> 00:42:23.687 Or a lot can be invested, 851 00:42:23.688 --> 00:42:26.529 a lot of time and money into things that don't work very, 852 00:42:26.589 --> 00:42:27.170 very quickly. 853 00:42:28.435 --> 00:42:28.695 That's, 854 00:42:28.995 --> 00:42:29.155 yeah, 855 00:42:29.415 --> 00:42:30.296 that's so interesting. 856 00:42:30.376 --> 00:42:33.517 And I guess that it's also not only about the, 857 00:42:34.017 --> 00:42:34.657 like the, 858 00:42:35.297 --> 00:42:36.477 in this case of renovation, 859 00:42:37.238 --> 00:42:38.418 not only about the home, 860 00:42:38.958 --> 00:42:41.019 but also about the neighborhood, 861 00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:43.039 the way people approach their community, 862 00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:45.060 like a physical community and so on. 863 00:42:45.080 --> 00:42:46.560 So that makes so much sense. 864 00:42:46.580 --> 00:42:48.961 And there is also this kind of appetite for beauty, 865 00:42:49.121 --> 00:42:50.441 appetite for connection, 866 00:42:50.521 --> 00:42:51.382 human connection, 867 00:42:51.962 --> 00:42:52.962 that is, 868 00:42:53.342 --> 00:42:55.083 must be front and center. 869 00:42:55.223 --> 00:42:55.723 And that's... 870 00:42:56.216 --> 00:42:56.436 I mean, 871 00:42:56.575 --> 00:43:01.399 that's really nice to have someone who has done all of this, 872 00:43:02.240 --> 00:43:03.941 put these aspects into perspective. 873 00:43:03.961 --> 00:43:04.202 Because, 874 00:43:04.463 --> 00:43:04.702 you know, 875 00:43:04.903 --> 00:43:08.945 I've been working on the New European House Initiative for many years. 876 00:43:09.006 --> 00:43:12.109 And that's exactly the kind of concept we try to approach, 877 00:43:12.168 --> 00:43:15.552 but sometimes from more of a policy or technical perspective. 878 00:43:15.552 --> 00:43:16.231 But now you say, 879 00:43:16.613 --> 00:43:16.753 yeah, 880 00:43:16.892 --> 00:43:18.834 we need the community to make it happen. 881 00:43:19.055 --> 00:43:21.417 And that's at the end of the day, 882 00:43:21.756 --> 00:43:24.579 it's a like the renovating, 883 00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:25.380 retrofitting your... 884 00:43:25.579 --> 00:43:26.400 own space, 885 00:43:26.561 --> 00:43:27.021 your home. 886 00:43:27.682 --> 00:43:29.222 It's a human adventure. 887 00:43:29.443 --> 00:43:34.588 So let's put the human really front and center. 888 00:43:34.887 --> 00:43:35.528 Thank you so much, 889 00:43:35.608 --> 00:43:35.829 Laura. 890 00:43:36.249 --> 00:43:37.329 I learned so much from Marine. 891 00:43:37.769 --> 00:43:39.392 Thank you so much for having me. 892 00:43:41.052 --> 00:43:42.814 Energetic explores the people, 893 00:43:42.914 --> 00:43:47.537 policies and institutions shaping Europe's and the world's energy transition. 894 00:43:48.198 --> 00:43:49.240 I am Marine Cornelis. 895 00:43:49.479 --> 00:43:51.341 If you found this conversation valuable, 896 00:43:51.401 --> 00:43:53.784 you can share it with colleagues working on housing, 897 00:43:53.863 --> 00:43:54.363 governance, 898 00:43:54.365 --> 00:43:55.365 and consumer protection. 899 00:43:55.945 --> 00:43:58.988 You will find references and further reading in the show notes. 900 00:43:59.367 --> 00:44:00.108 Until next time.