WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.928 --> 00:00:05.450 The energy transition is happening, 2 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:06.651 but is it fair? 3 00:00:07.212 --> 00:00:09.071 Is it working for people like you and me, 4 00:00:09.673 --> 00:00:11.696 or just for big market players? 5 00:00:12.860 --> 00:00:13.837 Welcome to Energetic. 6 00:00:14.095 --> 00:00:14.977 I am Marine Cornelis, 7 00:00:15.079 --> 00:00:17.118 an expert in energy and climate policies, 8 00:00:17.462 --> 00:00:20.384 and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. 9 00:00:21.149 --> 00:00:21.587 Activists, 10 00:00:21.602 --> 00:00:22.212 scientists, 11 00:00:22.321 --> 00:00:23.071 policy makers, 12 00:00:23.430 --> 00:00:25.446 the real people making real change, 13 00:00:26.055 --> 00:00:27.415 often against the odds. 14 00:00:28.368 --> 00:00:28.665 Here, 15 00:00:28.899 --> 00:00:31.118 we do not settle for surface-level takes. 16 00:00:31.552 --> 00:00:32.993 We dig into the challenges, 17 00:00:33.134 --> 00:00:37.378 the solutions and the lessons that do not always make the headlines. 18 00:00:38.077 --> 00:00:38.839 And in doing so, 19 00:00:39.339 --> 00:00:41.343 we rediscover something vital, 20 00:00:41.764 --> 00:00:44.007 our ability to trust in institutions, 21 00:00:44.147 --> 00:00:48.061 to believe in change and to reclaim our power to act. 22 00:00:48.530 --> 00:00:50.327 Because if we want just resilience, 23 00:00:50.655 --> 00:00:51.968 if we want to just transition, 24 00:00:52.389 --> 00:00:55.280 we need to understand what it takes to make it happen. 25 00:00:55.843 --> 00:00:56.671 And more importantly, 26 00:00:57.124 --> 00:00:58.952 we need to believe that we can. 27 00:00:59.686 --> 00:01:00.546 Let's get into it. 28 00:01:02.445 --> 00:01:05.127 When I first spoke with Stanislas D'Herbemont of Rescoop.eu, 29 00:01:05.670 --> 00:01:06.931 his words left a deep mark. 30 00:01:07.170 --> 00:01:08.670 He explained how communities, 31 00:01:08.830 --> 00:01:10.635 even when they deliver clean energy, 32 00:01:10.892 --> 00:01:12.174 jobs and social value, 33 00:01:12.572 --> 00:01:16.900 are often forced to pay a risk premium simply for being democratic. 34 00:01:17.588 --> 00:01:20.166 Banks look at citizen ownership and see dilution. 35 00:01:20.666 --> 00:01:22.900 They look at participation and see instability. 36 00:01:23.619 --> 00:01:24.166 At the time, 37 00:01:24.494 --> 00:01:26.728 this felt like a quiet but heavy inquiry, 38 00:01:26.947 --> 00:01:27.994 holding projects back. 39 00:01:28.791 --> 00:01:29.072 Today, 40 00:01:29.328 --> 00:01:31.291 with the ACE project coming close, 41 00:01:31.529 --> 00:01:33.771 his analysis feels even more urgent. 42 00:01:34.432 --> 00:01:36.076 Over the past weeks on Energetic, 43 00:01:36.537 --> 00:01:40.678 you've heard Junior and Bangala speak of energy as hope, 44 00:01:41.123 --> 00:01:47.873 and Chris Vrettos call for all hands on deck as communities mobilize millions in Citizen Capital. 45 00:01:48.764 --> 00:01:51.967 This conversation shows that things are moving, 46 00:01:52.451 --> 00:01:56.201 but they also remind us why Stan's perspective still matters. 47 00:01:56.951 --> 00:01:57.779 Because the storm 48 00:01:58.004 --> 00:01:58.965 has not passed yet. 49 00:01:59.824 --> 00:02:03.924 Communities still face higher costs just for choosing democracy. 50 00:02:04.767 --> 00:02:05.666 Public guarantees, 51 00:02:05.904 --> 00:02:10.045 social climate fund plans and ethical finance can't change that tide, 52 00:02:10.490 --> 00:02:12.084 but only if we keep pushing. 53 00:02:13.045 --> 00:02:17.248 So as we gather in Brussels on 7 October for the ACE closing event, 54 00:02:17.607 --> 00:02:19.763 I want us to revisit Stan's voices. 55 00:02:20.341 --> 00:02:22.513 This episode is like the keel of the ship. 56 00:02:23.029 --> 00:02:25.466 It shows the barrier we need to overcome and 57 00:02:25.512 --> 00:02:28.353 And it helps us measure how far we've sailed. 58 00:02:28.833 --> 00:02:29.812 So let's listen again. 59 00:02:31.535 --> 00:02:31.734 Stan, 60 00:02:31.773 --> 00:02:33.753 I'm so happy to have you with me today. 61 00:02:34.050 --> 00:02:40.456 And it's such a nice follow-up with the episode we recorded with Antonia Kroger a few months ago. 62 00:02:41.097 --> 00:02:42.613 Thank you and welcome to Energetic. 63 00:02:43.160 --> 00:02:43.863 Thank you for having me, 64 00:02:43.894 --> 00:02:44.222 Marine. 65 00:02:44.331 --> 00:02:47.941 And I hope I will do as well as Antonia in your wonderful podcast. 66 00:02:47.956 --> 00:02:49.972 And thank you very much for the kind words in the introduction. 67 00:02:50.738 --> 00:02:53.160 So dig into your story first. 68 00:02:53.456 --> 00:02:53.831 Why? 69 00:02:54.220 --> 00:02:55.822 development manager at Rescoop. EU. 70 00:02:56.021 --> 00:02:57.203 What is your backstory? 71 00:02:57.783 --> 00:02:59.768 How did you get interested in community energy? 72 00:03:01.049 --> 00:03:01.185 Well, 73 00:03:01.627 --> 00:03:04.689 that's at the same time a very long and a very short story. 74 00:03:05.291 --> 00:03:09.135 The short part of the story is that when I joined the energy sector, 75 00:03:09.136 --> 00:03:15.736 I was given a chance by the members of Rescoop EU to join in as a team member of what was a very small secretariat at the time, 76 00:03:15.861 --> 00:03:16.783 already eight years ago. 77 00:03:17.627 --> 00:03:20.361 And a lot of people in the corporate movement believed in me. 78 00:03:20.627 --> 00:03:22.189 And I think that's why I'm still here today. 79 00:03:22.692 --> 00:03:24.574 The long story is when 80 00:03:25.554 --> 00:03:27.257 I finished university, 81 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:29.398 I was trained in business administration. 82 00:03:29.558 --> 00:03:31.464 So I was originally an accountant, 83 00:03:31.558 --> 00:03:35.543 had nothing to do with energy or with community energy in general. 84 00:03:36.105 --> 00:03:36.386 And 85 00:03:36.785 --> 00:03:42.246 I got interested with my brother into a new concept that at the time was emerging called a community microgrid. 86 00:03:42.964 --> 00:03:50.293 A community microgrid is a technical concept that looked at a potential disconnection of a part of the grid. 87 00:03:50.860 --> 00:03:55.206 that allowed a high penetration of renewables from the technical standpoint, 88 00:03:55.803 --> 00:03:56.046 you know, 89 00:03:56.444 --> 00:03:57.928 leveraging ancillary services, 90 00:03:57.987 --> 00:04:01.108 leveraging a number of the technical services that are linked to microgrids. 91 00:04:01.671 --> 00:04:12.218 And what was our specific interest into that was the fact that there are certain of those microgrids that started implementing community engagement mechanisms and became community-driven, 92 00:04:13.046 --> 00:04:16.499 meaning they looked at how to recreate a link. 93 00:04:17.004 --> 00:04:24.506 from the infrastructure point of view to the citizens themselves and really trace that line between what is the energy, 94 00:04:25.088 --> 00:04:25.322 you know, 95 00:04:25.486 --> 00:04:30.408 the common parts of all our lives and the real experiences of that energy in real citizens' 96 00:04:30.447 --> 00:04:30.729 lives. 97 00:04:31.330 --> 00:04:32.869 And at that time, 98 00:04:33.002 --> 00:04:36.127 I was lucky enough to have a brother who worked for 99 00:04:36.549 --> 00:04:39.924 EDF. And so we went on a tour of Europe, 100 00:04:40.143 --> 00:04:44.127 visiting more than 15 research projects I'm looking at how to... 101 00:04:44.232 --> 00:04:46.473 conceptualize this community microgrid, 102 00:04:47.196 --> 00:04:53.403 how to make it happen in reality both from a technical standpoint and from a community standpoint, 103 00:04:53.778 --> 00:04:55.442 a realistic economic standpoint. 104 00:04:56.122 --> 00:05:01.614 And so we finished that trip at the General Assembly of Resco PU in 2016 looking at 105 00:05:02.301 --> 00:05:05.941 How could cooperatives really integrate into those concepts? 106 00:05:06.201 --> 00:05:07.722 And so that's how then I joined 107 00:05:08.402 --> 00:05:08.941 Resco PU. 108 00:05:10.121 --> 00:05:10.601 And since then, 109 00:05:10.625 --> 00:05:11.101 I never left. 110 00:05:11.359 --> 00:05:13.547 I started working on energy efficiency, 111 00:05:13.664 --> 00:05:16.187 which is an absolutely fascinating topic. 112 00:05:16.242 --> 00:05:18.437 It's really the bedrock of the transition. 113 00:05:19.140 --> 00:05:20.281 And I worked with wonderful, 114 00:05:20.406 --> 00:05:25.594 wonderful colleagues and projects that allowed me to really discover all the aspects, 115 00:05:25.625 --> 00:05:28.828 not only from the point of view of the technicalities, 116 00:05:28.844 --> 00:05:31.328 but also from the point of view of the engagement of people. 117 00:05:31.849 --> 00:05:32.770 into the transition. 118 00:05:33.531 --> 00:05:37.814 And that led me to then work into another project, 119 00:05:37.975 --> 00:05:41.678 which was the Compa project that looked at then the implementation of those kind of, 120 00:05:42.397 --> 00:05:42.662 you know, 121 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:46.904 slightly disconnected areas of the grids that had a strong community focus. 122 00:05:47.607 --> 00:05:48.850 And in the Compa project, 123 00:05:48.881 --> 00:05:51.240 we worked with many companies as well, 124 00:05:51.334 --> 00:05:54.897 many private partners that looked at how to make that happen technically. 125 00:05:55.475 --> 00:05:58.115 And then what Rescopy was bringing to the table with our members, 126 00:05:58.818 --> 00:05:59.897 namely Zez and... 127 00:06:00.105 --> 00:06:01.486 Copernico in Portugal. 128 00:06:02.508 --> 00:06:06.811 Our goal was really to understand how we could make that happen from a community standpoint. 129 00:06:06.830 --> 00:06:09.412 How could we make that happen for the service of the people? 130 00:06:10.678 --> 00:06:16.998 And that allowed us as well to kind of follow the publication of the clean energy package at the time in 2018, 131 00:06:16.999 --> 00:06:18.342 2019. 132 00:06:18.343 --> 00:06:20.951 The development of the concepts of renewable energy communities, 133 00:06:20.983 --> 00:06:22.061 citizen energy communities, 134 00:06:22.092 --> 00:06:23.248 and then the implementation. 135 00:06:23.311 --> 00:06:24.576 And yeah, 136 00:06:24.592 --> 00:06:25.233 here I am now, 137 00:06:25.545 --> 00:06:26.233 eight years later, 138 00:06:26.889 --> 00:06:28.826 working on something that 139 00:06:29.397 --> 00:06:29.597 Yeah, 140 00:06:30.258 --> 00:06:33.260 it's something that was unfortunate in most of the projects that I worked on, 141 00:06:34.080 --> 00:06:36.838 but that became a very intrinsic part of my experiences, 142 00:06:37.060 --> 00:06:38.220 the financing of this project. 143 00:06:38.236 --> 00:06:38.556 And really, 144 00:06:38.595 --> 00:06:41.439 how do you realize the community ownership aspect of that? 145 00:06:42.056 --> 00:06:42.236 So, 146 00:06:42.619 --> 00:06:42.924 indeed, 147 00:06:43.424 --> 00:06:58.041 finance seems to be the biggest culprit for many things to happen and not happen or not steer in the direction we would like it to be. 148 00:06:58.244 --> 00:06:58.556 and uh 149 00:06:59.185 --> 00:06:59.586 In French, 150 00:06:59.587 --> 00:07:00.226 we say l'argent, 151 00:07:00.246 --> 00:07:01.948 c'est le nerf de la guerre. 152 00:07:01.949 --> 00:07:04.710 I don't know if an equivalent expression exists in English, 153 00:07:05.050 --> 00:07:08.777 but basically it says that we actually need money to move things forward. 154 00:07:09.636 --> 00:07:19.738 So you have been working on various strategies to kind of steer the money in the direction of energy communities, 155 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:20.222 basically, 156 00:07:20.691 --> 00:07:22.722 and financing these energy communities. 157 00:07:23.175 --> 00:07:26.128 And they are facing many pitfalls. 158 00:07:26.597 --> 00:07:26.706 So. 159 00:07:28.727 --> 00:07:30.988 What should they try to avoid? 160 00:07:31.069 --> 00:07:31.891 What could they do, 161 00:07:32.430 --> 00:07:33.629 these energy communities? 162 00:07:33.832 --> 00:07:37.418 And what is really your experience in that? 163 00:07:37.738 --> 00:07:37.957 I mean, 164 00:07:38.317 --> 00:07:40.199 you seem quite, 165 00:07:40.200 --> 00:07:41.699 seems to be quite a long journey. 166 00:07:42.637 --> 00:07:43.137 It is. 167 00:07:43.223 --> 00:07:44.528 It has been quite a long journey. 168 00:07:44.621 --> 00:07:47.621 But I think if I can use as well another French expression, 169 00:07:47.746 --> 00:07:51.590 sometimes it's important to have the means of our ambitions. 170 00:07:52.121 --> 00:07:53.449 Les moyens de nos ambitions. 171 00:07:54.528 --> 00:07:54.934 and so you know 172 00:07:55.617 --> 00:08:04.122 I think what was important for us as a federation was to really look at how do we concretely make that transition happen from a community standpoint. 173 00:08:04.442 --> 00:08:05.419 And then very quickly, 174 00:08:05.458 --> 00:08:06.497 we started to realize, 175 00:08:06.536 --> 00:08:06.802 okay, 176 00:08:07.520 --> 00:08:12.935 the reality in the energy sector is that the money is distributed in a very interesting way. 177 00:08:13.653 --> 00:08:16.185 And it's not really as straightforward. 178 00:08:17.200 --> 00:08:17.606 Interesting, 179 00:08:17.763 --> 00:08:18.247 some would say. 180 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:23.544 Let's say it's not as straightforward as simply in other markets where it's kind of... 181 00:08:24.005 --> 00:08:25.246 the client's deciding. 182 00:08:25.426 --> 00:08:27.968 It's not really the case in the energy sector for good reasons. 183 00:08:28.648 --> 00:08:31.254 I think it's very important to realize that at the end of the day, 184 00:08:31.371 --> 00:08:33.453 energy is a special product. 185 00:08:33.758 --> 00:08:37.781 It is not something that is traded the same way as, 186 00:08:37.937 --> 00:08:38.336 I believe, 187 00:08:38.398 --> 00:08:38.758 clothes, 188 00:08:38.820 --> 00:08:45.383 which is what you were talking to me about before we joined that podcast or any form of other customer product. 189 00:08:46.179 --> 00:08:47.992 The point here for us was to understand, 190 00:08:48.008 --> 00:08:48.242 okay, 191 00:08:48.601 --> 00:08:49.476 when we invest, 192 00:08:49.523 --> 00:08:50.273 we make a choice. 193 00:08:50.398 --> 00:08:51.867 We make a choice for the world of the future. 194 00:08:53.517 --> 00:08:58.343 It was important for us to understand how can we steer that choice in the direction of community energy. 195 00:08:59.042 --> 00:09:11.308 Energy communities in general are creating a different vision of the world that we think most of the traditional liberalized energy companies are providing right now, 196 00:09:11.730 --> 00:09:14.355 which is a very market-driven point of view, 197 00:09:14.651 --> 00:09:17.464 very based on financial incentives and optimization. 198 00:09:18.042 --> 00:09:19.167 And the reality is... 199 00:09:19.297 --> 00:09:25.062 the vision behind energy communities and also behind the corporate movement to a certain extent was to create a different type of world, 200 00:09:25.082 --> 00:09:30.746 a world that is actually based on what is called wonderfully in the language of the commission co-benefits, 201 00:09:30.965 --> 00:09:31.152 right? 202 00:09:31.527 --> 00:09:35.152 As if finance was first and then co-benefits happen on the side. 203 00:09:35.511 --> 00:09:41.043 But the reality is that those co-benefits are the key essence of our experience as citizens. 204 00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:43.121 It is our social cohesion. 205 00:09:43.621 --> 00:09:47.277 It is the transition to a cleaner future for our children. 206 00:09:47.737 --> 00:09:55.566 It is allowing for each of us to have real control over both the sources and the allocation of the energy in our lives. 207 00:09:56.128 --> 00:09:59.128 And so this is really the core question that we keep talking about. 208 00:09:59.206 --> 00:10:02.449 How do we kind of realize that in our current world? 209 00:10:03.169 --> 00:10:04.110 And the reality is that then, 210 00:10:04.150 --> 00:10:04.390 yes, 211 00:10:04.571 --> 00:10:04.811 Marina, 212 00:10:04.812 --> 00:10:05.372 I agree with you. 213 00:10:05.993 --> 00:10:07.235 Money is the key issue. 214 00:10:07.711 --> 00:10:09.997 Money is not necessarily the end, 215 00:10:10.157 --> 00:10:14.079 but it's the mean that we use for the allocation of our resources that are finite. 216 00:10:14.618 --> 00:10:16.626 And so that's where the debate started. 217 00:10:16.946 --> 00:10:26.633 It started at how can we allocate the resources that we have to make sure that the transition to energy democracy happened in Europe tomorrow. 218 00:10:27.336 --> 00:10:28.211 And from that point of view, 219 00:10:28.727 --> 00:10:32.383 what we started to look at is what is the expression of the community energy movement. 220 00:10:33.233 --> 00:10:37.418 which is really all the initiatives in the energy sector that are driven by citizens. 221 00:10:38.078 --> 00:10:40.121 And it's the community ownership aspect. 222 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:41.840 The fact that we own, 223 00:10:42.340 --> 00:10:43.160 we control, 224 00:10:43.684 --> 00:10:46.864 which are also two different things that are strongly interlinked. 225 00:10:47.270 --> 00:10:52.551 We control the projects that are the outcome of our actions as citizens. 226 00:10:53.129 --> 00:10:55.957 And so we looked at energy communities. 227 00:10:55.973 --> 00:10:57.364 We looked at how they are financed. 228 00:10:57.365 --> 00:11:01.504 We looked at how we partner as well with public and private entities. 229 00:11:01.989 --> 00:11:02.129 and 230 00:11:02.641 --> 00:11:04.262 We did that through a project called ACE, 231 00:11:04.342 --> 00:11:06.041 which you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, 232 00:11:06.541 --> 00:11:08.541 which is Access to Capital for Community Energy, 233 00:11:09.103 --> 00:11:16.127 and which is really a project that looked at what are the type of models in terms of sharing the value between the different financing partners? 234 00:11:16.666 --> 00:11:20.338 And how do we make more energy communities happen with strong, 235 00:11:20.900 --> 00:11:22.213 viable projects through time? 236 00:11:22.713 --> 00:11:25.088 What was interesting then for me was to understand that, 237 00:11:25.228 --> 00:11:25.400 yes, 238 00:11:25.463 --> 00:11:29.853 there are a number of limitations currently in our world around community financing. 239 00:11:30.588 --> 00:11:31.885 The first of which is... 240 00:11:32.817 --> 00:11:33.858 An issue of risk. 241 00:11:34.779 --> 00:11:35.219 As you know, 242 00:11:35.660 --> 00:11:36.221 most of the, 243 00:11:36.481 --> 00:11:36.779 let's say, 244 00:11:37.420 --> 00:11:39.084 structural financing players, 245 00:11:39.483 --> 00:11:40.006 the banks, 246 00:11:40.162 --> 00:11:41.123 the financial institutions, 247 00:11:41.803 --> 00:11:43.045 do not necessarily talk in euros, 248 00:11:43.069 --> 00:11:43.811 but talk in risk. 249 00:11:44.147 --> 00:11:45.131 Is it a risky project? 250 00:11:45.132 --> 00:11:46.194 It is not a risky project. 251 00:11:46.195 --> 00:11:48.748 And that's how they value really the investment that they're making. 252 00:11:49.920 --> 00:11:56.295 The key problem with community energy is that it has been considered historically as a very risky investment partner. 253 00:11:57.248 --> 00:11:57.514 Why? 254 00:11:58.967 --> 00:12:00.108 Because of... 255 00:12:00.353 --> 00:12:16.664 unclear reasons because they are small because their ownership structure is diluted because their control is democratic because they are unfamiliar just to be clear because they feel removed from the 256 00:12:16.773 --> 00:12:27.304 way traditional financing partners are built and so therefore the understanding is very it's much more difficult and therefore when the understanding is difficult the assessment is also much more risky. 257 00:12:27.305 --> 00:12:30.007 And so most communities usually pay a premium. 258 00:12:30.525 --> 00:12:31.226 on their financing, 259 00:12:31.986 --> 00:12:32.488 which obviously, 260 00:12:32.968 --> 00:12:33.207 I mean, 261 00:12:33.367 --> 00:12:37.093 is most SMEs will tell you is a reality of the world, 262 00:12:37.132 --> 00:12:40.718 but at the same time is strongly impairing the scaling of those projects, 263 00:12:40.757 --> 00:12:43.257 which at the end of the day are not financially optimized. 264 00:12:43.258 --> 00:12:44.359 They're optimized for other things. 265 00:12:44.695 --> 00:12:46.539 They're optimized for the social cohesion. 266 00:12:46.586 --> 00:12:48.898 They're optimized for the inclusivity, 267 00:12:49.007 --> 00:12:49.929 the responsibility, 268 00:12:51.211 --> 00:12:52.945 the benefits to the local community, 269 00:12:53.226 --> 00:12:57.695 but they're not optimized for how much cash am I going to get out of my production project? 270 00:12:57.726 --> 00:12:59.507 How much cash am I going to get out of my windmill? 271 00:13:00.013 --> 00:13:00.193 Or, 272 00:13:00.253 --> 00:13:00.514 you know, 273 00:13:01.174 --> 00:13:04.119 how am I going to deliver this premium asset for my portfolio? 274 00:13:04.439 --> 00:13:07.220 That is not something that community energy organizations really look at. 275 00:13:07.681 --> 00:13:07.802 Yeah, 276 00:13:07.900 --> 00:13:10.806 they are reinventing some norms. 277 00:13:10.923 --> 00:13:14.470 They are reinventing somehow some standards. 278 00:13:15.009 --> 00:13:16.712 And traditional investors, 279 00:13:16.728 --> 00:13:17.837 they are not familiar with that, 280 00:13:17.838 --> 00:13:19.212 so they don't really trust them. 281 00:13:19.290 --> 00:13:20.009 And I mean, 282 00:13:20.509 --> 00:13:27.900 the two previous episodes of this podcast were really about norms and international norms and standards and how important they are to build trust. 283 00:13:28.225 --> 00:13:31.368 really foster trust and make sure that customers follow. 284 00:13:31.428 --> 00:13:32.688 But it's not only about customer, 285 00:13:33.129 --> 00:13:34.270 it's about the banks, 286 00:13:34.770 --> 00:13:37.536 it's about any kind of investors, 287 00:13:37.598 --> 00:13:38.715 any kind of money, 288 00:13:38.832 --> 00:13:41.239 whether private or public as well. 289 00:13:41.379 --> 00:13:41.700 I mean, 290 00:13:42.137 --> 00:13:44.864 you've been working with both channels, 291 00:13:44.926 --> 00:13:45.504 if I'm correct. 292 00:13:46.286 --> 00:13:46.801 Absolutely, 293 00:13:47.098 --> 00:13:47.551 absolutely. 294 00:13:47.598 --> 00:13:50.864 And I think there is two parts in your statement here. 295 00:13:51.207 --> 00:13:51.895 There is the first thing, 296 00:13:51.911 --> 00:13:53.551 which is the trust building exercise, 297 00:13:53.567 --> 00:13:54.926 which is so important. 298 00:13:55.270 --> 00:13:56.098 And the funny thing is that... 299 00:13:56.317 --> 00:13:58.958 when we see in certain areas where the trust is already pre-built, 300 00:13:59.417 --> 00:14:02.099 like when there is a very strong ethical corporate banking movement, 301 00:14:02.100 --> 00:14:02.599 for example, 302 00:14:02.939 --> 00:14:03.419 like in Italy, 303 00:14:04.017 --> 00:14:05.779 the projects are getting financed quite easily. 304 00:14:06.341 --> 00:14:08.318 But then when you go into countries like Croatia, 305 00:14:08.357 --> 00:14:08.841 for example, 306 00:14:08.880 --> 00:14:10.763 where the trust does not exist at all, 307 00:14:11.341 --> 00:14:12.755 it's something that feels very foreign, 308 00:14:13.099 --> 00:14:15.318 then suddenly it's almost impossible to finance those projects. 309 00:14:16.208 --> 00:14:17.036 What we see there, 310 00:14:17.349 --> 00:14:21.099 and it's good that you mentioned the public and the private side of finance. 311 00:14:21.849 --> 00:14:22.286 Obviously, 312 00:14:22.568 --> 00:14:23.599 to finance a transition, 313 00:14:23.630 --> 00:14:24.364 we will need both. 314 00:14:24.458 --> 00:14:24.896 We will need 315 00:14:25.105 --> 00:14:28.029 public investments and private financiers as well to get engaged. 316 00:14:28.427 --> 00:14:28.830 However, 317 00:14:29.068 --> 00:14:31.252 there is a very clear difference in the roles. 318 00:14:32.052 --> 00:14:34.291 Public finance has always been in Europe, 319 00:14:34.572 --> 00:14:35.736 a kind of a front runner, 320 00:14:36.033 --> 00:14:39.783 a leader into looking at what can be done to, 321 00:14:40.502 --> 00:14:40.744 you know, 322 00:14:40.884 --> 00:14:42.541 trigger openings, 323 00:14:42.916 --> 00:14:46.884 either in the market or at least openings related to public policy objectives. 324 00:14:47.603 --> 00:14:48.587 And that's really what we see, 325 00:14:48.650 --> 00:14:50.869 where we see the opportunities for energy communities. 326 00:14:50.931 --> 00:14:53.978 We do see a lot of programs being developed for energy communities. 327 00:14:54.477 --> 00:14:54.998 Sometimes, 328 00:14:55.698 --> 00:14:55.938 you know, 329 00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:56.780 with a good understanding, 330 00:14:56.819 --> 00:14:58.403 sometimes with not such a good understanding, 331 00:14:58.442 --> 00:15:01.243 but at least really trying to push in that direction. 332 00:15:01.485 --> 00:15:03.028 And we really encourage that as well. 333 00:15:03.145 --> 00:15:04.747 What we encourage now a little bit more, 334 00:15:04.786 --> 00:15:04.950 though, 335 00:15:05.551 --> 00:15:08.848 is that those public institutions take a much more... 336 00:15:09.841 --> 00:15:11.463 blunt approach to the problem. 337 00:15:12.345 --> 00:15:16.048 It's not enough anymore to just measure the funding gap and to say, 338 00:15:16.126 --> 00:15:16.368 oh yeah, 339 00:15:16.369 --> 00:15:19.829 we will add a little bit on top and hope for those initiatives to survive. 340 00:15:20.470 --> 00:15:24.532 It will not work because we are facing very structural problem in the financing market. 341 00:15:24.993 --> 00:15:32.688 We need public financiers to really take the role that is theirs and take a step forward in terms of financing those projects structurally, 342 00:15:33.220 --> 00:15:35.360 not only in terms of the funding gap, 343 00:15:35.407 --> 00:15:37.001 which is mostly grants at that moment, 344 00:15:37.282 --> 00:15:38.329 but also in terms of the debt. 345 00:15:38.733 --> 00:15:41.857 in terms of the guarantees which are available for public institutions, 346 00:15:41.858 --> 00:15:42.357 for example, 347 00:15:42.456 --> 00:15:44.681 but are not so available for energy communities. 348 00:15:45.540 --> 00:15:47.298 The second part is the private financiers. 349 00:15:47.821 --> 00:15:48.165 And there, 350 00:15:48.845 --> 00:15:50.103 the debate is a little bit more complicated. 351 00:15:50.142 --> 00:15:50.407 Obviously, 352 00:15:50.446 --> 00:15:51.329 there is a trust problem. 353 00:15:51.587 --> 00:15:53.728 I would say that there is also an understanding problem. 354 00:15:53.946 --> 00:15:55.845 And that problem is from both sides. 355 00:15:56.048 --> 00:16:00.501 Most energy communities today are not ready to provide ESG credit guarantees, 356 00:16:00.502 --> 00:16:01.048 for example, 357 00:16:01.142 --> 00:16:02.189 for private financiers. 358 00:16:02.190 --> 00:16:06.298 They're not ready to really reach for those large portfolio programs. 359 00:16:06.439 --> 00:16:07.282 But this is changing. 360 00:16:07.809 --> 00:16:13.736 And one of the key things that we learned from the ACE project is that the capabilities of the movement are there. 361 00:16:14.174 --> 00:16:16.701 We're talking about the last 18 months in France, 362 00:16:17.896 --> 00:16:22.326 Energy Partagé invested 140 million euros in the movement. 363 00:16:22.662 --> 00:16:23.467 In the Netherlands, 364 00:16:24.209 --> 00:16:29.896 Energy Summer is currently running several funds of upwards of 200 million euros invested in the past 18 months. 365 00:16:30.146 --> 00:16:34.100 So we're talking about volumes that start to be making sense for private financiers. 366 00:16:34.937 --> 00:16:36.498 But then we come to the next part of the explanation, 367 00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:37.520 because there is one part, 368 00:16:37.561 --> 00:16:39.604 which is obviously the risk taking. 369 00:16:39.605 --> 00:16:40.522 And then the other part, 370 00:16:40.541 --> 00:16:45.588 which is the fact that you cannot deal with energy communities the same way that you deal with traditional projects. 371 00:16:46.408 --> 00:16:47.893 You need to understand their specific needs. 372 00:16:48.174 --> 00:16:48.572 Obviously, 373 00:16:48.650 --> 00:16:52.439 there we're talking about democratically governed and owned projects. 374 00:16:52.939 --> 00:16:58.580 And so the typical kind of financing timeline for a startup will not work there. 375 00:16:58.721 --> 00:17:01.783 We're not trying to look for angel investors that will come in. 376 00:17:02.193 --> 00:17:02.313 Yeah, 377 00:17:02.314 --> 00:17:04.675 it's a venture capital. 378 00:17:05.595 --> 00:17:05.877 Voilà, 379 00:17:05.998 --> 00:17:06.416 exactly. 380 00:17:06.478 --> 00:17:12.560 We're not talking about the traditional cascade of funding that you usually have in the private sector. 381 00:17:13.005 --> 00:17:13.240 Here, 382 00:17:13.365 --> 00:17:19.302 we need products that will fit into the true benefits of energy communities. 383 00:17:19.303 --> 00:17:20.646 And so I talked about ESGs. 384 00:17:20.677 --> 00:17:22.552 That's obviously one avenue that we're exploring, 385 00:17:22.646 --> 00:17:26.740 trying to valorize those quote-unquote co-benefits to the local community, 386 00:17:26.802 --> 00:17:29.084 but also to the world at large. 387 00:17:29.773 --> 00:17:34.955 And the second part is also trying to understand how can we structure deals that will make everybody feel safe? 388 00:17:34.974 --> 00:17:37.595 How do we spread the value in a way that makes sense for everybody? 389 00:17:38.771 --> 00:17:42.795 And there are a couple of things that we experimented with our hybrid products, 390 00:17:42.818 --> 00:17:43.396 for example, 391 00:17:43.576 --> 00:17:49.037 where we have equity or quasi equity that acts like that, 392 00:17:49.177 --> 00:17:51.959 where you guarantee a certain return for private financiers. 393 00:17:52.302 --> 00:17:52.677 Obviously, 394 00:17:52.724 --> 00:17:54.224 we're talking very long term. 395 00:17:55.501 --> 00:18:01.667 We are also talking about something that has a clear return and that can allow for energy communities to gather the financing that they need. 396 00:18:02.468 --> 00:18:11.718 The last thing that I will add is we all need to realize that there is a kind of a weird understanding in the financing world regarding the performance of certain projects. 397 00:18:12.343 --> 00:18:13.343 Performance is everywhere. 398 00:18:13.952 --> 00:18:15.265 What is my investment performance? 399 00:18:16.109 --> 00:18:20.749 And the problem is that most community energy projects have been placed in the high risk, 400 00:18:21.062 --> 00:18:22.046 high performance category, 401 00:18:22.374 --> 00:18:22.734 most of them. 402 00:18:23.093 --> 00:18:23.393 Obviously, 403 00:18:23.453 --> 00:18:25.496 they are not very high performance from a financial standpoint. 404 00:18:25.575 --> 00:18:25.936 It's clear. 405 00:18:26.137 --> 00:18:26.916 It's not the point either. 406 00:18:27.836 --> 00:18:34.746 But the problem is also that I tend to think that the quality of those investments have been heavily undervalued. 407 00:18:35.785 --> 00:18:37.129 Most community energy projects, 408 00:18:37.184 --> 00:18:40.035 most community energy organizations last very long. 409 00:18:40.114 --> 00:18:41.489 They are very sustainable through time. 410 00:18:41.598 --> 00:18:45.207 They do happen to be rather conservative in their investment profiles. 411 00:18:45.582 --> 00:18:49.739 But the reality is we are not building something that's going to disappear in five years. 412 00:18:50.977 --> 00:18:56.459 We're building something that's going to be here in 50 years so that our kids and our grandkids can be members of the cooperative. 413 00:18:56.838 --> 00:18:59.822 It's not about trying to make a quick buck. 414 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.580 And so the point here is we think, 415 00:19:03.963 --> 00:19:07.033 at least from the point of view of me and my colleagues, 416 00:19:07.455 --> 00:19:09.533 at least that's my personal opinion, 417 00:19:09.564 --> 00:19:16.830 is that I think there is a need for better understanding the quality of those projects and valuing energy communities for what they are, 418 00:19:17.236 --> 00:19:18.643 which is a structural... 419 00:19:19.537 --> 00:19:35.529 organization in the local at the local level that will stay for a very long time that will have a goal which is not crazy investments but that will be to deliver long-term value through time and that's something that i believe most investors should understand and appreciate better yeah 420 00:19:35.669 --> 00:19:47.544 that's that's really really so interesting because as we like more globally talk about sustainability we think more and more about like the impact of our purchase of our 421 00:19:48.202 --> 00:19:49.804 let's say our daily actions, 422 00:19:49.925 --> 00:19:50.044 etc. 423 00:19:51.007 --> 00:19:51.849 And more and more, 424 00:19:51.868 --> 00:19:55.112 the question of finance moves to the top of the agenda. 425 00:19:55.214 --> 00:19:57.421 There were also discussions at COP. 426 00:19:57.757 --> 00:19:57.999 I mean, 427 00:19:58.155 --> 00:19:59.999 it's becoming really one of the... 428 00:20:00.928 --> 00:20:14.060 most exposed points because somehow many banks are still financing fossil fuel industries and polluting businesses and so on and we need to move beyond that for the sake of our planet, 429 00:20:14.099 --> 00:20:15.185 for the sake of humanity. 430 00:20:15.841 --> 00:20:17.279 And what, 431 00:20:17.466 --> 00:20:18.591 if I understand correctly, 432 00:20:19.029 --> 00:20:27.779 the idea of energy communities is really so sustainable that is built really to be 433 00:20:28.548 --> 00:20:35.775 as something steady that she doesn't really need to move up and down and be traded and move from one person to another. 434 00:20:35.853 --> 00:20:41.760 So it doesn't seem to be like the thing you will make a lot of money from if you are, 435 00:20:42.244 --> 00:20:42.541 let's say, 436 00:20:42.861 --> 00:20:43.502 in this kind of... 437 00:20:43.503 --> 00:20:44.924 It's not an excuse. 438 00:20:44.925 --> 00:20:45.049 No, 439 00:20:45.267 --> 00:20:47.564 exactly. 440 00:20:47.705 --> 00:20:48.361 We're not looking at that. 441 00:20:48.362 --> 00:20:49.127 Yeah, 442 00:20:49.128 --> 00:20:49.283 I mean, 443 00:20:49.314 --> 00:20:52.252 I remember the film Wall Street in the 444 00:20:52.627 --> 00:20:56.220 80s. It's exactly not what you would see in the portfolio of... 445 00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:58.362 of the Wolf of Wall Street, 446 00:20:58.942 --> 00:20:59.221 right? 447 00:20:59.583 --> 00:21:02.967 Because somehow it's the impact on society, 448 00:21:03.967 --> 00:21:15.311 on really on the environment is so much stronger and so much broader that actually everybody who's concerned about climate should be thinking of investing in an energy community. 449 00:21:15.874 --> 00:21:18.342 But the thing is the intermediaries, 450 00:21:18.467 --> 00:21:19.342 so the bankers, 451 00:21:19.889 --> 00:21:20.702 they have cold feet, 452 00:21:21.217 --> 00:21:21.436 right? 453 00:21:22.084 --> 00:21:22.204 Yeah, 454 00:21:22.244 --> 00:21:23.506 it's partly that and it's partly, 455 00:21:23.546 --> 00:21:23.885 I think, 456 00:21:24.006 --> 00:21:24.766 the financing world. 457 00:21:24.767 --> 00:21:25.087 At the end, 458 00:21:25.167 --> 00:21:27.389 it looks very fast when you look at movies, 459 00:21:27.569 --> 00:21:29.690 but the reality is that it's very slow in the background. 460 00:21:30.194 --> 00:21:33.374 It's those gigantic organizations that move very slowly. 461 00:21:34.038 --> 00:21:35.460 And our understanding is that it's normal. 462 00:21:35.881 --> 00:21:36.600 It's not a problem. 463 00:21:36.616 --> 00:21:37.296 It's not a criticism. 464 00:21:37.397 --> 00:21:38.600 It's just a normal thing. 465 00:21:39.100 --> 00:21:39.397 Today, 466 00:21:39.506 --> 00:21:42.725 we see more and more customers of banks asking for those green investments. 467 00:21:42.850 --> 00:21:47.506 The reality is that the highest performing investments are the ones that have highest ratings, 468 00:21:47.944 --> 00:21:49.991 the ones that actually are quote unquote green. 469 00:21:50.476 --> 00:21:51.417 We see popping up, 470 00:21:51.537 --> 00:21:51.896 you know, 471 00:21:52.476 --> 00:21:53.716 different types of investments, 472 00:21:54.556 --> 00:21:58.236 portfolios claiming high quality green. 473 00:21:59.380 --> 00:22:00.740 The problem is the greenwashing. 474 00:22:01.138 --> 00:22:01.599 Recently, 475 00:22:01.755 --> 00:22:04.677 the commission has implemented new standards to try to avoid that. 476 00:22:05.060 --> 00:22:05.177 The 477 00:22:06.396 --> 00:22:12.599 CRC 3Ds also now have been voted to actually be implemented as well for the European level. 478 00:22:12.600 --> 00:22:18.115 So we hope that those standards are kind of like coming together and making it clear that greenwashing will not be the point. 479 00:22:18.662 --> 00:22:19.537 but obviously you know 480 00:22:20.336 --> 00:22:22.478 If you want to take advantage of things, 481 00:22:22.479 --> 00:22:23.720 you can always take advantage of things. 482 00:22:23.778 --> 00:22:24.962 What we are looking for here, 483 00:22:25.021 --> 00:22:28.064 and that's really the message that for me is important. 484 00:22:28.185 --> 00:22:29.403 And that's why I hear from you as well, 485 00:22:29.404 --> 00:22:29.747 Marianne, 486 00:22:29.763 --> 00:22:30.849 is let's be responsible. 487 00:22:31.169 --> 00:22:31.927 Let's be responsible. 488 00:22:31.966 --> 00:22:32.568 At the end of the day, 489 00:22:32.591 --> 00:22:33.450 the customers want it. 490 00:22:34.091 --> 00:22:34.528 Definitely, 491 00:22:34.607 --> 00:22:34.927 100%. 492 00:22:36.294 --> 00:22:40.857 Most of them are co-financing the investment of the bank in there. 493 00:22:41.294 --> 00:22:41.810 Just to be clear, 494 00:22:41.857 --> 00:22:42.732 they are also members. 495 00:22:42.733 --> 00:22:44.560 They are putting their own money on the line. 496 00:22:44.919 --> 00:22:46.685 So the question here is, 497 00:22:46.763 --> 00:22:47.841 let's take a stance together. 498 00:22:48.008 --> 00:22:48.869 And that's really that. 499 00:22:49.069 --> 00:22:52.413 And not only because we are an ethical bank, 500 00:22:52.714 --> 00:22:56.714 but because we believe that we can make a better future tomorrow. 501 00:22:56.940 --> 00:22:57.760 That's really the point. 502 00:22:58.198 --> 00:23:00.940 And I think it will become a reality. 503 00:23:01.823 --> 00:23:02.159 Granted, 504 00:23:02.260 --> 00:23:03.120 I'm an optimist at heart, 505 00:23:03.362 --> 00:23:05.651 but I do believe that at some point, 506 00:23:06.401 --> 00:23:14.776 the tide will turn and we will see heavy investment in energy communities and those kind of high impact qualitative projects. 507 00:23:15.232 --> 00:23:17.995 that will bring value to the local community. 508 00:23:17.996 --> 00:23:21.679 Not because it's going to be the new El Dorado, 509 00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:24.538 but because this is the right thing to do. 510 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:26.124 And because at the end of the day, 511 00:23:26.125 --> 00:23:27.101 we all need to live together. 512 00:23:27.102 --> 00:23:28.741 And so we need to put our money where our mouth is. 513 00:23:29.710 --> 00:23:30.546 That's really the main point. 514 00:23:31.444 --> 00:23:36.398 That's really something you've been advocating for the concept of citizens' 515 00:23:36.491 --> 00:23:37.991 property in the energy sector. 516 00:23:38.554 --> 00:23:44.382 And how would you define it for somebody who's hearing that term for the first time? 517 00:23:45.036 --> 00:23:46.678 And it's one of the things, 518 00:23:46.698 --> 00:23:47.999 the most interesting things, 519 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:48.360 I think, 520 00:23:48.399 --> 00:23:57.106 about this kind of citizens property approach is that you manage to uncouple financial investment and financial structures from the governance. 521 00:23:57.692 --> 00:23:59.614 So how does that work in practice? 522 00:24:00.489 --> 00:24:00.731 Right. 523 00:24:01.059 --> 00:24:01.168 So, 524 00:24:01.325 --> 00:24:01.575 I mean, 525 00:24:01.872 --> 00:24:05.137 for us and just citizen property or community ownership, 526 00:24:05.168 --> 00:24:05.762 as we call it, 527 00:24:05.840 --> 00:24:07.075 is really structured around, 528 00:24:07.622 --> 00:24:08.012 as you said, 529 00:24:08.153 --> 00:24:10.340 separating the governance right from the financing right. 530 00:24:10.903 --> 00:24:14.137 And that idea that it doesn't really matter how much you are. 531 00:24:14.512 --> 00:24:16.394 willing or able to invest. 532 00:24:16.413 --> 00:24:18.978 What matters is that you're invested and that you're part of the community. 533 00:24:19.716 --> 00:24:24.619 The operationalization of that is really through usually concepts of one member, 534 00:24:24.704 --> 00:24:26.587 one vote or governance by college, 535 00:24:26.603 --> 00:24:30.204 depending however you prefer to implement it in your country as well. 536 00:24:30.861 --> 00:24:36.861 And it looks at a way of collective decision that does not rely on the amount of money that you invested, 537 00:24:37.439 --> 00:24:41.001 but rather on the fact that you want to be part of the group and the decision together. 538 00:24:41.876 --> 00:24:42.283 Mind you, 539 00:24:42.376 --> 00:24:43.126 it doesn't mean that... 540 00:24:43.496 --> 00:24:49.782 the formal amount that you invested is not rewarded from a financial standpoint to the level that you invested. 541 00:24:49.821 --> 00:24:54.043 And so if I invest 100 euros and my neighbor invests 1,000 euros, 542 00:24:54.489 --> 00:24:55.372 at the end of the day, 543 00:24:55.528 --> 00:24:56.911 if we distribute dividends... 544 00:24:57.738 --> 00:24:58.659 For two, 545 00:24:58.760 --> 00:24:58.959 three, 546 00:24:59.099 --> 00:24:59.679 four percent, 547 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:04.142 which is typical in the corporate movement and most of the energy communities that we know in Europe, 548 00:25:05.006 --> 00:25:06.666 you will get four percent of a thousand euro. 549 00:25:06.830 --> 00:25:08.447 You will not get four percent of a hundred, 550 00:25:08.448 --> 00:25:08.947 just to be clear. 551 00:25:09.408 --> 00:25:10.252 But at the end of the day, 552 00:25:10.330 --> 00:25:11.775 we get the same rights to decide, 553 00:25:11.908 --> 00:25:16.236 should we distribute this money or should we keep it in the business to make sure that we can continue having projects? 554 00:25:16.752 --> 00:25:18.361 And so that's really where at the end of the day, 555 00:25:18.362 --> 00:25:18.986 it's very simple. 556 00:25:19.236 --> 00:25:20.299 It's not rocket science, 557 00:25:20.517 --> 00:25:22.064 something that happened forever. 558 00:25:22.658 --> 00:25:26.689 The other thing as well that I find interesting is the interface of that with... 559 00:25:27.098 --> 00:25:28.359 the typical private finance of, 560 00:25:28.399 --> 00:25:28.560 well, 561 00:25:29.421 --> 00:25:31.062 I need to make sure that my return is here. 562 00:25:31.901 --> 00:25:33.183 If I'm a professional investor, 563 00:25:33.245 --> 00:25:34.909 I need to make sure that my return is here. 564 00:25:34.948 --> 00:25:36.167 And at the end of the day, 565 00:25:36.690 --> 00:25:37.409 nothing wrong with that. 566 00:25:38.370 --> 00:25:41.534 If it's your job to make sure that money is actually working, 567 00:25:41.651 --> 00:25:43.722 then it's understandable that you want a clear return. 568 00:25:44.472 --> 00:25:48.097 You can still do that through those hybrid models where, 569 00:25:48.503 --> 00:25:49.019 for example, 570 00:25:49.456 --> 00:25:49.581 in 571 00:25:49.956 --> 00:25:50.737 Italy right now, 572 00:25:50.847 --> 00:25:56.128 there is a product that you can get as an investor that will allow you to guarantee a certain level of return. 573 00:25:56.906 --> 00:25:57.566 minus the risk, 574 00:25:57.606 --> 00:25:57.946 obviously, 575 00:25:58.606 --> 00:26:02.529 which is linked not to the fact that you are a member of the community, 576 00:26:02.728 --> 00:26:05.107 but rather that you are an investment support. 577 00:26:05.670 --> 00:26:07.045 So it's a different category of share. 578 00:26:07.068 --> 00:26:09.131 You don't necessarily get the governance rights, 579 00:26:09.428 --> 00:26:10.568 just like the rest of the community, 580 00:26:10.646 --> 00:26:11.873 because at the end of the day, 581 00:26:11.888 --> 00:26:12.967 you're not part of the community. 582 00:26:13.467 --> 00:26:18.498 But you get veto rights and controlling rights on the distribution of the dividends, 583 00:26:18.873 --> 00:26:21.435 allowing you to guarantee your return long term. 584 00:26:21.854 --> 00:26:24.698 And so that's really this kind of model that we're trying to look at right now. 585 00:26:24.756 --> 00:26:26.120 If you look at what Energy Partagé, 586 00:26:26.217 --> 00:26:26.659 for example, 587 00:26:26.660 --> 00:26:27.479 is doing in France, 588 00:26:27.901 --> 00:26:30.604 they really looked at how do we share the value of the project. 589 00:26:31.206 --> 00:26:31.541 Obviously, 590 00:26:31.542 --> 00:26:33.362 we need to reward all the actors. 591 00:26:33.409 --> 00:26:34.002 It's not to say, 592 00:26:34.127 --> 00:26:34.245 ah, 593 00:26:35.831 --> 00:26:37.487 community actors need to get all the value. 594 00:26:38.354 --> 00:26:38.463 No, 595 00:26:38.995 --> 00:26:39.307 obviously, 596 00:26:39.308 --> 00:26:43.823 we should get some value because the community is the prime holder of the project, 597 00:26:43.979 --> 00:26:46.963 both in terms of the ownership and in terms of... 598 00:26:48.294 --> 00:26:51.855 also bearing the consequence of the existence of the energy project. 599 00:26:52.736 --> 00:26:54.556 But it's obviously everybody should get a share. 600 00:26:54.857 --> 00:26:55.537 Municipality, 601 00:26:56.017 --> 00:26:57.017 the financiers, 602 00:26:57.853 --> 00:26:58.580 operators, 603 00:26:58.713 --> 00:26:59.275 developers. 604 00:26:59.674 --> 00:27:03.416 And so really then the conversation of co-development becomes very interesting. 605 00:27:03.439 --> 00:27:03.697 I'm saying, 606 00:27:03.721 --> 00:27:03.939 okay, 607 00:27:04.603 --> 00:27:07.791 how do we ensure that everybody can have a safe business model? 608 00:27:08.181 --> 00:27:10.275 How can we ensure that everybody gets the right value? 609 00:27:10.385 --> 00:27:12.025 But we all have the same understanding. 610 00:27:12.541 --> 00:27:13.306 At the end of the day, 611 00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:15.541 we're trying to get more renewables. 612 00:27:16.202 --> 00:27:18.785 better renewables as well that will fit into a broader system. 613 00:27:19.326 --> 00:27:21.087 And we need to create local job, 614 00:27:22.048 --> 00:27:23.228 local economic drive, 615 00:27:23.849 --> 00:27:25.033 local growth and skills. 616 00:27:25.150 --> 00:27:27.517 So that's really what we're looking at at the end of the day. 617 00:27:27.892 --> 00:27:34.064 And then allowing for that partnership to be with everybody on the same point rather than a competition partnership. 618 00:27:34.517 --> 00:27:38.486 I think this is a very key drive in the community energy movement. 619 00:27:38.548 --> 00:27:40.173 It's not about competition. 620 00:27:40.361 --> 00:27:42.064 We're not trying to compete with one another. 621 00:27:42.423 --> 00:27:44.892 We're trying to collaborate together for a better world. 622 00:27:45.450 --> 00:27:48.753 And so that makes a big difference as well in the relationship with our partners currently. 623 00:27:49.393 --> 00:27:49.515 Yeah, 624 00:27:49.636 --> 00:27:51.796 it's cooperation instead of competition. 625 00:27:51.897 --> 00:27:52.796 And I love that. 626 00:27:52.917 --> 00:27:55.237 It's really like, 627 00:27:55.698 --> 00:28:01.964 I feel it's a common thing among the people who were my guests in this podcast, 628 00:28:02.011 --> 00:28:11.261 because everybody really wants to share their insights and really want to make their solutions somehow. 629 00:28:11.818 --> 00:28:32.578 more mainstream and i really like that i mean i'm really grateful for the speakers to be so so generous really with their with their ideas and with their business models with their projects and so on and so so let uh let me ask you one uh one thing uh really one piece of advice so one or two key lessons you 630 00:28:32.579 --> 00:28:39.406 would like to to offer to uh potential listeners who would be keen to contribute or start their own community energy project. 631 00:28:40.562 --> 00:28:40.969 Absolutely. 632 00:28:41.418 --> 00:28:43.140 What I will not do is tell you what to do. 633 00:28:43.660 --> 00:28:47.443 That would be counterintuitive to exactly what I've just been telling you for the past 634 00:28:47.846 --> 00:28:48.346 40 minutes. 635 00:28:49.307 --> 00:28:55.916 What I will tell you is what was my experience here in Brussels when we built the first citizen energy community in Brussels called Brupower. 636 00:28:56.674 --> 00:28:58.197 And when we built that community, 637 00:28:58.229 --> 00:29:00.072 we started in a very difficult context. 638 00:29:00.213 --> 00:29:02.354 Brussels has a very high energy poverty rate. 639 00:29:02.932 --> 00:29:04.760 Our buildings are very poorly renovated. 640 00:29:04.885 --> 00:29:06.322 Our energy market is terrible. 641 00:29:06.541 --> 00:29:08.338 There's only two suppliers available. 642 00:29:09.030 --> 00:29:09.611 One being Total, 643 00:29:09.651 --> 00:29:10.232 one being Engie. 644 00:29:10.251 --> 00:29:11.712 So I can tell you it's not amazing. 645 00:29:12.574 --> 00:29:13.874 Not to say that they're doing a bad job, 646 00:29:13.913 --> 00:29:16.077 just to say that there's not a lot of choice. 647 00:29:16.718 --> 00:29:17.742 And so when we started, 648 00:29:18.117 --> 00:29:21.562 we took on something that people told us was impossible. 649 00:29:22.085 --> 00:29:26.921 To build an energy community and to do that with people in a place where there's a high rate of poverty. 650 00:29:27.765 --> 00:29:28.796 And the reality now, 651 00:29:28.890 --> 00:29:31.468 as we are about to launch our first project, 652 00:29:31.531 --> 00:29:34.077 it's actually going to be put into operation next Monday. 653 00:29:35.921 --> 00:29:36.359 It is true, 654 00:29:36.390 --> 00:29:36.656 actually. 655 00:29:36.702 --> 00:29:38.640 It was a lot harder than we thought. 656 00:29:38.702 --> 00:29:40.724 So just the first advice is one, 657 00:29:40.825 --> 00:29:42.325 it's going to be a lot harder than you thought. 658 00:29:42.665 --> 00:29:43.184 Absolutely. 659 00:29:43.587 --> 00:29:47.333 And you should always listen to the people that are telling you, 660 00:29:47.450 --> 00:29:47.934 be careful, 661 00:29:48.349 --> 00:29:48.872 be careful. 662 00:29:49.411 --> 00:29:50.192 It's very hard. 663 00:29:51.153 --> 00:29:52.052 It's complicated. 664 00:29:52.294 --> 00:29:52.575 You know, 665 00:29:52.755 --> 00:29:53.638 you should listen to your banker. 666 00:29:53.919 --> 00:29:54.114 Yes, 667 00:29:54.341 --> 00:29:55.731 you're potentially, 668 00:29:55.732 --> 00:29:58.606 he's potentially right to say that your project is difficult. 669 00:29:59.326 --> 00:30:00.467 But at the same time, 670 00:30:00.668 --> 00:30:03.309 you should always listen as well to your partners, 671 00:30:03.310 --> 00:30:04.269 to the people around you, 672 00:30:04.270 --> 00:30:06.914 to your community that is telling you this is too important to give up. 673 00:30:07.496 --> 00:30:12.801 And I think that's really what is the main message here is at the end of the day, 674 00:30:13.043 --> 00:30:14.121 we all have a choice to make. 675 00:30:14.644 --> 00:30:16.215 Whoever it is, 676 00:30:16.949 --> 00:30:17.871 maybe a financier, 677 00:30:17.918 --> 00:30:19.183 maybe a community member, 678 00:30:19.293 --> 00:30:21.152 maybe we all have a choice to make. 679 00:30:21.621 --> 00:30:23.433 And we have to make that choice together. 680 00:30:23.449 --> 00:30:25.699 So we have to drive in the right direction. 681 00:30:26.168 --> 00:30:28.277 I think one of the interactions that really... 682 00:30:29.582 --> 00:30:35.770 left an imprint in my mind was when we did our first fundraising round and, 683 00:30:36.547 --> 00:30:36.790 you know, 684 00:30:36.791 --> 00:30:39.094 we were raising a very significant amount of money for us. 685 00:30:39.110 --> 00:30:43.696 We were raising 400,000 euros and we didn't think that we were going to make it because at the end of the day, 686 00:30:43.719 --> 00:30:44.454 we did six months, 687 00:30:44.516 --> 00:30:45.383 nothing really happened. 688 00:30:45.493 --> 00:30:47.727 People started telling us we did too much. 689 00:30:48.133 --> 00:30:52.868 And then we received a single time investment of 20,000 euros for a single person, 690 00:30:53.758 --> 00:30:55.133 which to me is enormous. 691 00:30:55.383 --> 00:30:56.930 20,000 euros is incredible. 692 00:30:57.406 --> 00:30:58.066 So at the beginning, 693 00:30:58.126 --> 00:30:59.146 my first reaction was, 694 00:30:59.186 --> 00:30:59.306 oh, 695 00:30:59.307 --> 00:30:59.967 this is a mistake. 696 00:31:00.066 --> 00:31:04.166 So I'm going to write to that person and let them know that they made a mistake. 697 00:31:04.947 --> 00:31:05.287 And also, 698 00:31:05.404 --> 00:31:05.685 also... 699 00:31:06.287 --> 00:31:07.670 One or two extra zero. 700 00:31:08.006 --> 00:31:08.185 Voilà, 701 00:31:08.389 --> 00:31:09.146 that's it. 702 00:31:09.170 --> 00:31:11.107 You probably made one zero extra or two. 703 00:31:11.748 --> 00:31:13.732 And then also to remind them of the rules of the cooperative, 704 00:31:13.733 --> 00:31:14.264 which are very, 705 00:31:14.326 --> 00:31:14.810 very tight, 706 00:31:14.951 --> 00:31:15.170 right? 707 00:31:15.171 --> 00:31:19.373 He will only be able to get his investment back after six years. 708 00:31:19.451 --> 00:31:19.639 It's, 709 00:31:19.670 --> 00:31:19.904 you know, 710 00:31:19.967 --> 00:31:20.748 limited returns. 711 00:31:21.592 --> 00:31:25.467 And I received the most wonderful email in return saying... 712 00:31:30.573 --> 00:31:31.049 You're very emotional. 713 00:31:31.050 --> 00:31:32.530 I didn't think it was going to be that hard. 714 00:31:32.531 --> 00:31:34.612 He literally wrote me an email saying, 715 00:31:34.729 --> 00:31:36.573 listen, 716 00:31:37.276 --> 00:31:38.815 not only check yourself, 717 00:31:39.393 --> 00:31:42.494 you need to know that I actually wanted to put 20,000 euros. 718 00:31:43.057 --> 00:31:45.260 I checked my amounts before saying send, 719 00:31:45.401 --> 00:31:46.119 which is okay. 720 00:31:46.729 --> 00:31:47.979 And the second part was, 721 00:31:48.651 --> 00:31:50.760 we think that you're going to do great things with this money. 722 00:31:51.182 --> 00:31:52.510 And we really believe in what you're doing. 723 00:31:52.823 --> 00:31:53.510 And at the end of the day, 724 00:31:53.557 --> 00:31:55.010 that's important enough for us to do. 725 00:31:55.369 --> 00:31:55.651 you know 726 00:31:55.958 --> 00:31:57.099 It's not that we don't need that money, 727 00:31:57.580 --> 00:31:59.481 but we do believe that at the end of the day, 728 00:31:59.561 --> 00:32:02.303 you will do what you said you will do and that we will see that money back. 729 00:32:02.885 --> 00:32:03.167 And that, 730 00:32:03.225 --> 00:32:03.506 you know, 731 00:32:03.967 --> 00:32:04.725 whatever the return, 732 00:32:04.749 --> 00:32:05.725 we invested in the right thing. 733 00:32:05.726 --> 00:32:07.069 We invested in the future of our children. 734 00:32:07.608 --> 00:32:09.092 And I think this answer, 735 00:32:09.249 --> 00:32:10.553 which was very simple at the end of the day, 736 00:32:10.554 --> 00:32:10.749 is just, 737 00:32:10.795 --> 00:32:10.913 no, 738 00:32:11.053 --> 00:32:11.920 I made an investment. 739 00:32:11.952 --> 00:32:12.780 I know what I'm doing. 740 00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:15.717 I am capable of making a financial analysis. 741 00:32:17.686 --> 00:32:19.686 It was really wonderful because it really showed, 742 00:32:19.936 --> 00:32:20.202 you know, 743 00:32:20.203 --> 00:32:20.858 that people care, 744 00:32:21.499 --> 00:32:23.342 that people actually want to make that difference. 745 00:32:23.389 --> 00:32:23.639 And so 746 00:32:24.561 --> 00:32:25.514 I have trust in you. 747 00:32:25.690 --> 00:32:26.571 they put their trust in you. 748 00:32:27.191 --> 00:32:27.572 Exactly. 749 00:32:27.612 --> 00:32:28.132 And at the end, 750 00:32:28.193 --> 00:32:29.154 it all relies on that. 751 00:32:29.334 --> 00:32:30.295 It all relies on the trust. 752 00:32:30.296 --> 00:32:32.619 It all relies on the beliefs that we have together. 753 00:32:32.638 --> 00:32:33.236 And at the end of the day, 754 00:32:33.237 --> 00:32:34.134 I'm sure that we'll make it. 755 00:32:34.135 --> 00:32:39.884 And I'm sure that I'll be more than happy in six years from now to hopefully not give him his money back, 756 00:32:39.947 --> 00:32:47.369 but to deliver to him his first dividends on his returns and to make sure that he knows that he made a difference in the creation of the community, 757 00:32:48.087 --> 00:32:53.525 which obviously I'm sure that we are not the most performant part of his portfolio, 758 00:32:53.634 --> 00:32:54.806 but at least he made a difference. 759 00:32:54.990 --> 00:32:55.991 for a lot of people around here. 760 00:32:56.950 --> 00:32:58.051 That's super inspiring. 761 00:32:58.112 --> 00:32:59.391 So people with deep pockets, 762 00:32:59.692 --> 00:33:04.094 please reach out to Stan for our energy projects. 763 00:33:04.110 --> 00:33:04.875 And yeah, 764 00:33:05.211 --> 00:33:05.469 I mean, 765 00:33:05.875 --> 00:33:06.250 that's also, 766 00:33:06.930 --> 00:33:09.492 that's such an interesting story also because, 767 00:33:09.852 --> 00:33:10.774 you know, 768 00:33:11.633 --> 00:33:12.586 one of the key aspects, 769 00:33:12.617 --> 00:33:12.992 of course, 770 00:33:12.993 --> 00:33:17.055 of the energy transition is like the renovation of the building and so on. 771 00:33:17.133 --> 00:33:23.680 And somehow if you decide to invest in your own solar panels or in your own... 772 00:33:24.458 --> 00:33:24.859 let's say, 773 00:33:25.379 --> 00:33:29.243 retrofitting of your home by putting a heat pump or renovating it. 774 00:33:29.762 --> 00:33:29.883 Yeah, 775 00:33:30.426 --> 00:33:32.004 maybe you get some money back, 776 00:33:32.047 --> 00:33:32.825 but it's only for you. 777 00:33:33.004 --> 00:33:34.145 Whereas in that case, 778 00:33:34.146 --> 00:33:41.457 it was really about the community and delivering for the community and mostly delivering for those who could benefit, 779 00:33:41.551 --> 00:33:47.176 but who are actually not capable of putting any money at first. 780 00:33:47.207 --> 00:33:47.395 I mean, 781 00:33:47.535 --> 00:33:48.364 maybe they can put... 782 00:33:49.282 --> 00:33:52.184 They have all the skills or talents they can share, 783 00:33:52.286 --> 00:33:59.872 but maybe they are not able to put any money because of many reasons and many circumstances that are present to them. 784 00:33:59.934 --> 00:34:01.512 So that's really great. 785 00:34:01.997 --> 00:34:02.239 I mean, 786 00:34:02.254 --> 00:34:02.551 thank you, 787 00:34:02.958 --> 00:34:03.278 person, 788 00:34:03.637 --> 00:34:06.254 generous contributor in Brussels. 789 00:34:07.364 --> 00:34:11.270 I won't give his name right now because he didn't give me the green light to do that, 790 00:34:11.317 --> 00:34:13.051 but I definitely carry, 791 00:34:13.379 --> 00:34:15.067 we all carrying him in our arms, 792 00:34:15.083 --> 00:34:15.489 definitely. 793 00:34:16.583 --> 00:34:17.489 That's brilliant. 794 00:34:18.026 --> 00:34:26.755 Can you share one or two more things about the Blue Power Cooperative in Brussels and how it will really look like? 795 00:34:27.536 --> 00:34:34.575 What we hope to build is an organization that will be able to deliver cheaper kilowatt hours for all Bosselliers here in Brussels. 796 00:34:35.060 --> 00:34:43.888 And so what we started with is something that is very new in Brussels called energy sharing that is meant to allow us to basically deliver. 797 00:34:44.238 --> 00:34:47.907 kilowatt hours that we produce through rooftop installations directly to our members. 798 00:34:48.389 --> 00:34:49.311 And that allows us, 799 00:34:49.530 --> 00:34:51.436 thanks to the Brussels law, 800 00:34:51.936 --> 00:34:53.865 to provide with the cheaper kilowatt hours. 801 00:34:55.811 --> 00:34:56.252 Relatively, 802 00:34:56.271 --> 00:34:57.091 it's between 20% 803 00:34:57.092 --> 00:34:57.752 and 25% 804 00:34:58.013 --> 00:35:02.236 cheaper than a traditional fixed contract on the energy. 805 00:35:02.838 --> 00:35:03.736 So that's the vision. 806 00:35:03.916 --> 00:35:09.963 We already are starting to implement rooftop PV across the region. 807 00:35:10.869 --> 00:35:14.931 We are lucky enough to also partner with several Brussels municipalities, 808 00:35:14.947 --> 00:35:17.213 as well as large public buildings, 809 00:35:17.214 --> 00:35:19.447 to also implement this production. 810 00:35:20.041 --> 00:35:23.744 And Brutpower really is looking at bringing citizens together to understand, 811 00:35:24.041 --> 00:35:24.259 Yes. 812 00:35:24.506 --> 00:35:27.048 the production side of things to get cheaper kilowatt hours, 813 00:35:27.049 --> 00:35:32.275 but also to understand how can we as a region be more sustainable. 814 00:35:33.052 --> 00:35:35.974 And so what it means really is that the production side is going to be important, 815 00:35:36.075 --> 00:35:38.458 but the more important side is the sobriety aspect. 816 00:35:38.919 --> 00:35:45.419 And how can we change the way we consume energy and understand energy so that we can all better take advantage of it? 817 00:35:45.825 --> 00:35:47.294 Because we are such a big city, 818 00:35:47.435 --> 00:35:48.216 very urban area, 819 00:35:48.763 --> 00:35:51.357 we will need anyway the support of the other regions in Belgium. 820 00:35:51.794 --> 00:35:52.028 And so... 821 00:35:52.410 --> 00:35:55.153 We need to understand also the role that we have compared to that. 822 00:35:56.114 --> 00:36:06.847 The vision of Brutpower then is at some point to take on the supply as well in order to be able to be providing the entire bill of our members. 823 00:36:07.448 --> 00:36:07.565 So 824 00:36:08.143 --> 00:36:11.995 Brutpower was built two years ago by a group of 10 founders. 825 00:36:12.604 --> 00:36:15.573 And we are now looking to invest. 826 00:36:15.870 --> 00:36:16.807 We built our first project. 827 00:36:16.839 --> 00:36:17.995 We're looking to invest into... 828 00:36:18.986 --> 00:36:20.649 and much more until the end of the year. 829 00:36:20.727 --> 00:36:23.571 We are planning to get to 1.5 megawatt installed in, 830 00:36:24.172 --> 00:36:24.571 I think, 831 00:36:25.575 --> 00:36:26.415 a year and a half, 832 00:36:26.575 --> 00:36:29.997 so basically 2026. 833 00:36:29.998 --> 00:36:34.442 So it's hopefully going to make a difference for a significant number of people. 834 00:36:35.325 --> 00:36:37.840 You can join the cooperative very easily. 835 00:36:37.918 --> 00:36:40.793 We decided by design to make the share very low. 836 00:36:40.903 --> 00:36:42.356 So we have a 50 euro share, 837 00:36:42.903 --> 00:36:44.606 which granted is a lot for some people, 838 00:36:44.668 --> 00:36:44.934 but it's 839 00:36:45.670 --> 00:36:48.650 is considerably lower than most corporates in Belgium. 840 00:36:49.371 --> 00:36:57.652 And we also offer the opportunity for people then to join into different information activities to better understand the energy sector, 841 00:36:58.011 --> 00:36:59.394 better understand also the energy bill, 842 00:36:59.410 --> 00:37:00.996 which is very complex here in Brussels. 843 00:37:01.636 --> 00:37:03.152 So that's basically the project. 844 00:37:03.855 --> 00:37:04.449 On the face of it, 845 00:37:04.496 --> 00:37:04.996 rather simple. 846 00:37:05.621 --> 00:37:06.199 That's great. 847 00:37:06.761 --> 00:37:09.371 Thank you so much for all those insights, 848 00:37:09.777 --> 00:37:10.043 Stan. 849 00:37:10.402 --> 00:37:11.152 And yes, 850 00:37:11.558 --> 00:37:14.480 that really sounds very exciting for Brussels. 851 00:37:14.958 --> 00:37:15.278 And I mean, 852 00:37:15.459 --> 00:37:17.640 I'm not talking about Brussels EU policy making, 853 00:37:17.681 --> 00:37:18.562 but really Brussels, 854 00:37:18.662 --> 00:37:20.945 like Brussels people who are really. 855 00:37:21.324 --> 00:37:21.523 Yeah, 856 00:37:21.664 --> 00:37:22.226 for once, 857 00:37:22.265 --> 00:37:23.164 it's a. 858 00:37:24.351 --> 00:37:24.586 Yeah, 859 00:37:24.890 --> 00:37:28.109 it's lovely to hear a direct communication between those two words, 860 00:37:28.148 --> 00:37:30.195 because we talked about really like 861 00:37:30.656 --> 00:37:32.836 EU policy and the many, 862 00:37:32.898 --> 00:37:34.257 many facets of EU policies. 863 00:37:34.273 --> 00:37:37.086 And now we can like how we can actually deliver for the people. 864 00:37:37.195 --> 00:37:40.336 And that's that's really super inspiring because I mean. 865 00:37:40.842 --> 00:37:41.242 For once, 866 00:37:41.543 --> 00:37:45.044 your bubble is speaking to Brussels, 867 00:37:45.365 --> 00:37:46.005 Brussels, 868 00:37:46.868 --> 00:37:47.747 to the Zinneker. 869 00:37:47.810 --> 00:37:51.208 And that's really so nice and so empowering. 870 00:37:51.615 --> 00:37:52.216 Thank you so much, 871 00:37:52.232 --> 00:37:52.372 Dan. 872 00:37:53.357 --> 00:37:54.232 With pleasure. 873 00:37:54.294 --> 00:38:01.083 And I think one thing that I might add as well for the people that are in the finance world and want to look at something that works. 874 00:38:01.380 --> 00:38:07.896 I recommend that you go and take a look at what Bruxelles Finance & Invest has been doing here in Brussels because they helped us significantly. 875 00:38:08.446 --> 00:38:09.047 With BluePower, 876 00:38:09.127 --> 00:38:12.491 it's also one of the mechanisms that we're looking into with ACE. 877 00:38:13.132 --> 00:38:14.772 And it's a fantastic mechanism, 878 00:38:14.850 --> 00:38:16.315 both in terms of the equity investment, 879 00:38:16.316 --> 00:38:18.194 in terms of the debt investment as well, 880 00:38:18.499 --> 00:38:20.460 or the debt provision. 881 00:38:20.858 --> 00:38:22.483 So great job to them. 882 00:38:22.718 --> 00:38:24.647 They also helped us significantly as well. 883 00:38:24.882 --> 00:38:25.085 And, 884 00:38:25.803 --> 00:38:26.085 you know, 885 00:38:26.538 --> 00:38:27.022 I think we, 886 00:38:27.663 --> 00:38:28.444 strangely enough, 887 00:38:28.445 --> 00:38:28.882 we are very, 888 00:38:28.928 --> 00:38:29.147 I mean, 889 00:38:29.148 --> 00:38:29.741 we are very lucky, 890 00:38:29.788 --> 00:38:30.100 obviously, 891 00:38:30.132 --> 00:38:34.366 to be in Brussels because of all the great people and the bubble and so on and so forth. 892 00:38:34.367 --> 00:38:34.897 we have a 893 00:38:35.306 --> 00:38:38.670 a wealth of knowledge and understanding that is also coming to us and the corporatives. 894 00:38:39.150 --> 00:38:41.754 But we're also very lucky on the fact that, 895 00:38:41.933 --> 00:38:42.191 you know, 896 00:38:42.473 --> 00:38:43.215 you've been to Brussels, 897 00:38:43.691 --> 00:38:44.973 you lived here for quite a while. 898 00:38:45.058 --> 00:38:46.035 And it's at the end of the day, 899 00:38:46.036 --> 00:38:46.519 it's a village. 900 00:38:46.621 --> 00:38:49.738 And maybe sometime we are a bit too focused on the outside. 901 00:38:49.879 --> 00:38:52.605 And it feels good to also focus on ourselves a little bit. 902 00:38:53.469 --> 00:38:54.330 Thank you so much, 903 00:38:54.370 --> 00:38:54.570 Dan. 904 00:38:55.130 --> 00:38:58.753 Thank you for your generosity and for all those really interesting tips. 905 00:38:58.796 --> 00:39:00.577 And as you said, 906 00:39:00.855 --> 00:39:05.499 the energy community and energy citizenship is only at its beginning. 907 00:39:05.624 --> 00:39:11.585 So let's keep on being inspired by practices like ProPower and models like ProPower. 908 00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:12.866 So thank you so much. 909 00:39:14.663 --> 00:39:17.632 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. 910 00:39:17.881 --> 00:39:25.750 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the Just Energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. 911 00:39:26.426 --> 00:39:27.270 I'm Marine Cornelis, 912 00:39:27.387 --> 00:39:30.192 your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer. 913 00:39:30.574 --> 00:39:34.035 And it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, 914 00:39:34.410 --> 00:39:36.535 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. 915 00:39:37.238 --> 00:39:38.488 Since 2021, 916 00:39:38.660 --> 00:39:40.145 we've shared countless stories, 917 00:39:40.301 --> 00:39:43.942 insights and ideas over more than 40 episodes. 918 00:39:44.313 --> 00:39:47.496 And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. 919 00:39:48.178 --> 00:39:52.479 If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, 920 00:39:52.861 --> 00:39:54.463 why not support us on Patreon? 921 00:39:55.080 --> 00:39:58.369 Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. 922 00:39:58.869 --> 00:40:00.666 Check out the show notes for the link. 923 00:40:01.385 --> 00:40:01.791 And hey, 924 00:40:02.244 --> 00:40:07.916 if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, 925 00:40:08.416 --> 00:40:11.307 we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. 926 00:40:11.745 --> 00:40:17.832 It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. 927 00:40:18.773 --> 00:40:20.191 Shout out to the fantastic 928 00:40:20.550 --> 00:40:26.082 Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, 929 00:40:26.441 --> 00:40:28.839 making every episode a joy to listen to. 930 00:40:29.777 --> 00:40:30.808 If you haven't already, 931 00:40:31.042 --> 00:40:34.511 make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. 932 00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:38.464 And if you think a friend or colleague could benefit from our episode, 933 00:40:38.855 --> 00:40:40.480 we'd love for you to spread the word. 934 00:40:40.877 --> 00:40:45.101 It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. 935 00:40:45.601 --> 00:40:46.902 Sharing is caring. 936 00:40:47.464 --> 00:40:52.609 Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. 937 00:40:52.929 --> 00:40:54.812 Thanks once again for lending your ears. 938 00:40:54.952 --> 00:40:55.710 Until next time.