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Here is a non-exhaustive list of things that regenerative farmers provide for us.

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Clean air,

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clean water,

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healthy soils and beautiful thriving ecosystems full of biodiversity.

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And yet,

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in most cases,

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they are not being properly rewarded for these crucial ecosystem services.

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And that's an issue that my guest today,

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Nicolas Verscure,

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is trying to tackle through his cooperative Cultivae.

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by creating local regenerative supply chains and creating additional value for farmers who improve the health of their soils.

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Nicolas has been working in the regenerative agriculture space for several decades as a farmer,

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as a farm manager,

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and as an agronomist,

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and more recently as the co-founder of Soil Capital and Cultivay.

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His knowledge and experience

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are really quite impressive and I took the opportunity to revisit some of the core principles of Vrijenak with him.

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And he really gives us a deeper,

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more honest and realistic view on these principles than we've ever had on the podcast before.

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So even if you're already familiar with the topic,

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it's definitely worth a listen.

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And that's only a small part of the conversation.

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We also get really deep into a conversation about creating more value for regenerative farmers.

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This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital.

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I am your host Raphael and this is the Deep Seed Podcast.

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Hi Nicolas,

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thank you so much for joining me today on the Deep Seat podcast.

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I would love to start the conversation really strong and ask you this question.

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If there's one key message that you would like people to hear today,

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what would it be?

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I think that it's time...

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For the farmer to be properly valued for what they do,

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not only in the farming ecosystem,

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but at the community level,

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at the country level,

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in terms of what we say in economy,

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positive.

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externalities in terms of health of people,

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health of the environment,

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biodiversity and everything.

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So I think this is really something that is undervalued today that we need to continue to explain to everyone around the farmers.

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Why do you think that is?

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Why are we not valuing farmers as much as they deserve to be?

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For me,

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the biggest reason to that is that we have considered the farmer.

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in this industrialization as an industry.

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And the farmers and the farming in general is not an industry.

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We are more than any other sectors working with nature.

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working,

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feeding people.

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And so it's a very complex sector that is not really comparable to an industry,

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an industry that is transforming a product A into a product

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B.

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Farming is about cycle,

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recycling,

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and about bringing a lot of other value than just producing a product to the community.

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And I think that this has been forgotten.

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putting the farmer in in a box of a productor we say in french exploiter agricole so farmer is

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like a tool or like a mine.

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And this was done not with a bad purpose.

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Again,

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this has been said in your podcast several times.

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After the Second

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World War,

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it has been asked to the farmers to produce,

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to feed the nation.

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And so they've been really in an industrial

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rational and systematic mission.

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I think I understand what you're saying here.

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We've been considering and treating farming as a purely extractive activity in the same way we consider mining coal,

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for example,

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from a coal mine,

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where the farmer's only purpose is to mine the soil and to produce food from it.

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But actually,

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farming is a lot more than that.

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Farmers are the interface between...

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between society and the living world.

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And the work they do also impacts the climate,

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it impacts biodiversity,

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it impacts water cycles,

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the landscapes that we love to see when we go on a walk in the countryside on the weekend.

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And so farmers are not just a productive tool that is there to be squeezed as hard as possible so that it can produce as much food as possible for as cheap as possible.

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It's a lot more than that,

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and when not...

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at the present time considering enough all of these other benefits of farming activities on society on the planet on the ecosystems yes yes i think so and uh and i don't want to be fighting

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for the for the the image of the farmer i want to fight for the

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profitability of the farmers how they they get paid for what they do the farmer have been losing significant part of their share in the value chain and that's also something that uh

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believe actually together with a certain number of agro industry we discussed with that we we need to rebalance a little bit because yeah for me this is core if we want to talk about transition okay so when you say

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say rebalancing you mean there's the total value created by the entire supply chain and maybe the value the part of that value that goes to the farmer is not high enough when

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when you analyze that uh in different value chain you will very quickly discover that the costs of the farming activity in the final product of many different products i'm always using the

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the case of the barley in the beer because we like that in Belgium.

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But the barley costs in a beer is ridiculous.

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And this can...

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Ridiculous how?

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If you take one liter of beer,

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the contribution of the barley cost into this liter of beer will be around...

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2 to 4 euro cents per liter of beer.

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Think about the value of a liter of beer.

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I let you make the calculation and realize how small this is.

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I used to say that it's of course

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disappointing news for the farmer to realize that actually his contribution into the value chain is nothing.

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But this is also an element of optimism,

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because it means that rewarding the farmer properly or significantly higher,

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depending on what...

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the good he's doing to the planet,

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to the soil,

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to the community,

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is actually not as difficult as we intend to think.

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I see.

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If you look at it this way,

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if the farmer is getting such a small share of the final value of the product,

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paying the farmers a lot better,

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let's imagine twice as much in the case of barley here,

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would mean that the total costs

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of producing that litter of beer is only two more cents.

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Right?

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It goes from two cents to four cents if I'm doing the math right.

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And so there's a real opportunity there to actually reward farmers who farm in a way that is taking care of nature,

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ecosystem,

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the soils,

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biodiversity,

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and all of these things that we really need.

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Exactly.

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And you know,

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I'm not saying that again,

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to negotiate with the the rest of the value chain and to say okay we want more money i am

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really convinced that things have to change in farming.

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So there is a lot to do,

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and we're going to talk about that when we talk about region ag.

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So it's not that the farmers would be rewarded for just the fact that he has been doing hard work for the last 30 years and so on.

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No,

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it's about the future.

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And I think that if there is a possibility in the market...

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to my view,

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to reward properly the farmer for the change he will bring,

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to incentivize also properly the farmers who are not convinced that they should change without automatically asking to the consumer to pay a huge contribution or to increase drastically

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his spending.

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Of course,

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beer

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is an extreme case where this cost of the farming part is very small.

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But if you look at the bread,

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for example,

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if you look at the other crop,

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you will most of the time realize that the farmers contribute.

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into the final product in terms of cost is small.

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And that's actually,

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if the farmer increases cost or the value of his product to the first buyer in this value chain,

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the reflex of the buyer

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The first one and the next one would be to take a margin on the premium that the farmer would receive for the change he's bringing.

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The first buyer will probably take a margin as he do for normal price on top on this premium and the next one will take a margin on the margin.

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And so if we are not really careful about keeping this premium.

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in the pocket of the farmer and avoiding to inflate this premium,

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an increase of price for the farmer will always end in a quite important increase of price.

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the consumer and the different you know if you understand yeah i i think so i think i understand can i maybe try and re-explain this with my own words just to see if i understood this correctly so when a farmer is producing food in a way that is regenerative or organic or both the

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farmer is making an extra effort and is taking extra risk and therefore it makes sense for that farmer to sell their produce with an added premium

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So let's take an example.

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I'm going to use completely made up numbers,

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but just to make the point,

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right?

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So let's imagine a farmer who's selling a product for one euro.

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and decided to add a 20%

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premium because he or she is farming in a regenerative manner.

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So that farmer is now selling the product with a 20%

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premium at 1 euro and 20 cents.

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So you would think that the final consumer buying that same product at the supermarket at the end of the chain would pay

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20 cents more.

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So that premium from the farmer.

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But what actually happens is that ...

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every step of the value chain inflates that premium.

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And so the final price for the consumer is really high,

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a lot higher than the

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20 cents added value for the farmer.

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And that makes the product much less attractive and that creates a lot less traction in regenerative products and farming.

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And same thing goes for organic.

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Is that sort of right?

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Yeah,

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it's exactly what I was trying to explain.

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So.

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The conclusion of this simplistic calculation,

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which is a reality,

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is that the consumers say,

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or people,

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we say,

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very nice what the farmers are doing,

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very nice this concept of regenerative agriculture or organic agriculture,

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but too expensive.

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Only the rich or the richest part of the community is able to afford it,

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which is actually not true.

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If we look at who has made...

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the change and the effort and has taken the risk.

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The rest of the value chain will definitely have a little bit more cost to isolate the batches of grain,

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to communicate,

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to certify,

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whatever.

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But nothing compared to what the farmer has.

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put in terms of risk effort investment yeah so the big share of this premium if we call that the premium should go back to the pocket of the farmer obviously without impacting too much the consumer yeah yeah makes a lot of sense

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I definitely want to come back to this later in the conversation and talk about

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Cultivay, your cooperative and the work you're doing in creating these regenerative supply chains here in Belgium.

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But before we do that I'd love to rewind a bit and talk about regenerative agriculture.

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So,

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about a year ago when I started the podcast,

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the first two or three episodes were really about explaining what is regenerative agriculture,

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what are the key principles,

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what are the advantages and the difficulties and challenges of region ag.

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And since then,

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we sort of went into a lot of different directions,

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talking about different aspects of this.

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this topic.

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But since

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I know you have a really huge experience in regenerative agriculture,

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you've been working in this field for several decades as an agronomist,

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as a farmer,

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as a farm manager in a lot of different countries and continents even.

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And I thought it would be a great opportunity to...

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to go back over basics very quickly but sort of talk about regenerative agriculture and the key principles and then use that as a as a base as a stage to then go deeper into how we create new supply chains and new value for regenerative products and why doing

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that is important so yeah maybe you could give us a little five to ten minutes crash course on

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What is regenerative agriculture and what the key principles of RegenAg are?

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Okay,

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good exercise.

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Of course,

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I would start by saying that regenerative agriculture is an agriculture that is restoring soil health,

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biodiversity,

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water cycles,

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in agriculture,

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in the context of agriculture.

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I would probably add a link to what I...

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what we already discussed that regenerative agriculture or part of the definition of regenerative agriculture should also be to restore or to regenerate the the place where the farmer is in the community and also regenerate the

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the value that the farmer is supposed to receive from the value chain.

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So

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I would probably...

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That's really interesting.

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Yeah.

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So it seems like everybody has a bit of a different definition of what regenerative agriculture is.

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And what I tend to hear a lot is about,

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okay,

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it's about regenerating soil health,

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for example,

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instead of degrading it.

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And ecosystems,

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biodiversity,

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all of these things.

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But I love that you bring in...

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different concepts here.

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One is regenerate the farmer itself,

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its well-being,

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its place in the community,

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probably also physical mental well-being included in that,

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and regenerate his financial well-being.

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00:16:32.817 --> 00:16:37.161
his ability to sustain himself and to take care of the ecosystems we all depend on.

250
00:16:38.081 --> 00:16:38.221
Yeah,

251
00:16:38.501 --> 00:16:40.503
I think that is an important component.

252
00:16:40.603 --> 00:16:42.504
And just while you're saying that,

253
00:16:43.205 --> 00:16:53.012
when you realize that a very big proportion of the value today that the farmers are creating is not coming from them,

254
00:16:53.332 --> 00:16:54.413
it's coming from the subsidies.

255
00:16:55.274 --> 00:16:59.597
Just from a mental perspective is also a...

256
00:17:00.609 --> 00:17:00.889
For me,

257
00:17:01.350 --> 00:17:01.850
a problem,

258
00:17:02.030 --> 00:17:03.091
a motivation.

259
00:17:04.552 --> 00:17:07.954
I'm not saying that we should suppress that tomorrow.

260
00:17:08.274 --> 00:17:14.198
I already had some criticism when I said to a journalist who was asking me,

261
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:15.379
what do you

262
00:17:15.419 --> 00:17:16.420
thing about the subsidies,

263
00:17:17.241 --> 00:17:18.843
I took it for myself and I said,

264
00:17:18.863 --> 00:17:19.023
okay,

265
00:17:19.784 --> 00:17:30.077
I think I should try to live without the subsidy and that the farmer should develop a strategy without taking into

266
00:17:30.337 --> 00:17:41.786
on the subsidies because I think it's healthier to live from your own work than work living out of money that is given to you by the EU.

267
00:17:42.707 --> 00:17:42.827
So

268
00:17:43.788 --> 00:17:47.451
I would say that my personal advice for a farmer in private,

269
00:17:47.451 --> 00:17:48.111
we are not in private,

270
00:17:48.652 --> 00:17:49.192
would be to say,

271
00:17:49.212 --> 00:17:49.352
okay,

272
00:17:50.013 --> 00:17:55.737
let's try to develop a strategy for your farm to not be too dependent on these subsidies.

273
00:17:56.838 --> 00:18:00.161
I think that this is an important component for the motivation.

274
00:18:00.161 --> 00:18:01.022
motivation of the farmers,

275
00:18:01.042 --> 00:18:08.088
because the moment you feel that you actually are leaving out of your own work,

276
00:18:09.108 --> 00:18:17.255
that the value you have in the bank account or the money you have in the bank account at the end of the year is coming from your own creativity,

277
00:18:17.555 --> 00:18:18.016
own work,

278
00:18:19.537 --> 00:18:22.640
it's really rewarding and important.

279
00:18:23.921 --> 00:18:27.784
There is also another component when we talk about while we talk about the economy is that

280
00:18:29.369 --> 00:18:29.769
When you look,

281
00:18:30.450 --> 00:18:30.830
of course,

282
00:18:30.870 --> 00:18:37.094
some farmers are buying big tractors and this can be an observation from people from outside.

283
00:18:37.374 --> 00:18:38.255
I see big machines,

284
00:18:38.295 --> 00:18:39.276
I see big tractors,

285
00:18:39.316 --> 00:18:39.636
I see...

286
00:18:40.817 --> 00:18:40.937
and

287
00:18:41.317 --> 00:18:41.938
I don't have that.

288
00:18:43.158 --> 00:18:43.919
My first comment...

289
00:18:44.219 --> 00:18:48.760
I think that it's important to see what's the level of leverage of a farmer.

290
00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:59.923
I would be very surprised to understand that all the big machinery and all the big stuff we see that farmers are working with are owned by the more by the banks than by the farmers.

291
00:19:00.103 --> 00:19:00.683
That's one thing.

292
00:19:01.123 --> 00:19:07.665
The second thing is that you probably have to put that into the context of the value of the investment.

293
00:19:07.705 --> 00:19:09.125
So if you look at the farm.

294
00:19:10.225 --> 00:19:11.086
The value of a farm,

295
00:19:11.246 --> 00:19:12.227
the value of the lands,

296
00:19:12.848 --> 00:19:13.969
and if you just make the,

297
00:19:15.611 --> 00:19:19.196
you calculate the return on investment that the farmers are doing,

298
00:19:19.996 --> 00:19:22.119
you will realize that it's nothing.

299
00:19:22.299 --> 00:19:23.521
And when we talk nothing,

300
00:19:23.581 --> 00:19:23.701
it's

301
00:19:24.569 --> 00:19:26.611
between 0.5,

302
00:19:26.751 --> 00:19:27.131
1%,

303
00:19:27.331 --> 00:19:27.531
2%,

304
00:19:27.571 --> 00:19:28.532
3%

305
00:19:29.133 --> 00:19:29.993
in the best cases.

306
00:19:30.934 --> 00:19:33.336
And ask to a banker or someone from the

307
00:19:33.696 --> 00:19:34.357
Silicon Valley,

308
00:19:34.397 --> 00:19:34.737
whatever,

309
00:19:35.097 --> 00:19:38.500
he would invest in a business with a return of 2%

310
00:19:38.500 --> 00:19:38.860
or 3%

311
00:19:39.501 --> 00:19:40.181
with a high risk,

312
00:19:40.241 --> 00:19:41.242
depending of market,

313
00:19:41.302 --> 00:19:42.023
depending of weather,

314
00:19:42.623 --> 00:19:44.084
they will have lots of people saying,

315
00:19:44.164 --> 00:19:44.284
no,

316
00:19:44.525 --> 00:19:44.885
no way,

317
00:19:45.345 --> 00:19:46.226
impossible to...

318
00:19:47.007 --> 00:19:50.089
So this is also a reality that we have to face.

319
00:19:50.249 --> 00:19:51.849
talking about value and finance.

320
00:19:51.869 --> 00:19:55.530
Sorry to talk about that because that was not the purpose of the podcast.

321
00:19:55.550 --> 00:20:02.932
But the economy of a farmer for me is becoming more and more of a central discussion,

322
00:20:03.713 --> 00:20:04.313
central point.

323
00:20:04.453 --> 00:20:05.393
Yeah.

324
00:20:05.393 --> 00:20:11.675
But I think it's great that we're talking about the value and I'm really happy for that to be one of the central topic of discussion today.

325
00:20:11.715 --> 00:20:12.395
So that's great.

326
00:20:14.578 --> 00:20:17.121
Just going back to regenerative agriculture,

327
00:20:18.703 --> 00:20:23.028
could we maybe just discuss quickly the key principles?

328
00:20:23.669 --> 00:20:24.289
What does it mean,

329
00:20:25.090 --> 00:20:26.091
regenerative agriculture?

330
00:20:26.212 --> 00:20:27.393
What does a farmer have to do

331
00:20:27.593 --> 00:20:30.335
has to change to be considered regenerative?

332
00:20:30.856 --> 00:20:32.917
So first principle,

333
00:20:33.118 --> 00:20:35.980
we try to minimize the soil disturbance,

334
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:36.680
the tillage.

335
00:20:37.561 --> 00:20:39.623
In many of my experience,

336
00:20:39.703 --> 00:20:45.127
this is something that is implementable in different countries,

337
00:20:45.367 --> 00:20:46.088
different weather,

338
00:20:46.368 --> 00:20:46.568
again,

339
00:20:46.628 --> 00:20:47.189
different crops.

340
00:20:47.950 --> 00:20:51.512
So decreasing the number of passes,

341
00:20:51.793 --> 00:20:56.236
decreasing the aggressivity of mixing the soil,

342
00:20:56.236 --> 00:20:57.217
the different layers of the crop.

343
00:20:57.217 --> 00:21:12.702
to the soil is what we are trying to do okay it doesn't mean that we don't want to uh to work the soil i think that in in a certain number of cases this is possible to really stop touching

344
00:21:12.702 --> 00:21:22.785
the soil or nearly this is what we call the direct seeding zero tillage but in many cases unfortunately we still have to

345
00:21:24.657 --> 00:21:36.665
touch the soil to till the soil most of the most of the time because the mechanization we are using to harvest or to do the different operation that follows this

346
00:21:37.717 --> 00:21:38.178
the drilling,

347
00:21:38.198 --> 00:21:38.678
the seeding,

348
00:21:39.338 --> 00:21:41.599
is actually impacting the soil structure.

349
00:21:41.679 --> 00:21:46.782
And so the tillage is an artificial way of restoring the soil structure.

350
00:21:47.403 --> 00:21:47.523
And

351
00:21:48.163 --> 00:21:49.824
I haven't seen today,

352
00:21:50.985 --> 00:21:51.665
unfortunately,

353
00:21:52.245 --> 00:22:06.213
examples of a soil that is so healthy that it could restructure itself without any tillage after a few passes of...

354
00:22:07.053 --> 00:22:09.274
heavy machinery for the harvest.

355
00:22:09.274 --> 00:22:11.015
So first principle.

356
00:22:11.455 --> 00:22:11.976
So tilling,

357
00:22:12.616 --> 00:22:13.977
just to clarify,

358
00:22:15.077 --> 00:22:19.220
so tilling is when you really take the soil and you break it up into plowing,

359
00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:19.760
tilling.

360
00:22:21.421 --> 00:22:22.942
And it has advantages,

361
00:22:22.982 --> 00:22:23.422
like you said,

362
00:22:23.482 --> 00:22:27.584
for the soil structure to make sure the plants and the seed can grow in that soil,

363
00:22:27.744 --> 00:22:27.964
right?

364
00:22:28.505 --> 00:22:32.447
And the air and water can infiltrate and the roots have space to grow and all of these things.

365
00:22:32.447 --> 00:22:33.227
But at the same time,

366
00:22:33.247 --> 00:22:35.729
it's quite detrimental to soil health.

367
00:22:37.150 --> 00:22:37.510
Exactly.

368
00:22:37.630 --> 00:22:54.300
So the tillage is known to be an activity that is not helping the soil microbiology and the soil animals life to

369
00:22:54.360 --> 00:22:55.101
rebuild itself,

370
00:22:55.441 --> 00:22:56.001
to thrive.

371
00:22:56.822 --> 00:22:58.042
So we try to minimize that.

372
00:22:58.142 --> 00:23:01.024
And it's important to say that.

373
00:23:02.746 --> 00:23:05.913
During these last 25-30 years we've seen

374
00:23:07.637 --> 00:23:24.326
a certain number of cases of farmers who were trying to implement or to apply this no tillage principle too dogmatically and i think that it's important to mention that because uh this can lead to uh some

375
00:23:24.586 --> 00:23:35.212
some some failures and uh in certain geography with certain weather and certain crop this has been not a disaster but people had to

376
00:23:37.041 --> 00:23:45.607
to go backwards because this pure principle of not touching the soil was not possible.

377
00:23:45.948 --> 00:23:46.068
Yeah,

378
00:23:46.288 --> 00:23:46.708
so I see.

379
00:23:48.049 --> 00:23:56.916
The dream scenario would be that your soil is so healthy and the structure is so amazing that you could plant your seeds directly into it without tilling.

380
00:23:57.476 --> 00:24:01.299
But it's almost never truly the case that farmers can do that.

381
00:24:01.339 --> 00:24:03.841
And so there's different levels of how much.

382
00:24:05.073 --> 00:24:06.354
tilling the farmer can do.

383
00:24:06.674 --> 00:24:08.636
So by reducing the number of,

384
00:24:08.636 --> 00:24:09.797
you said the number of passes,

385
00:24:09.917 --> 00:24:12.359
the number of times you till a soil per year,

386
00:24:13.500 --> 00:24:16.462
reducing the depth also?

387
00:24:16.562 --> 00:24:16.882
Yeah,

388
00:24:17.362 --> 00:24:17.883
the depth,

389
00:24:18.003 --> 00:24:18.784
the intensity,

390
00:24:19.664 --> 00:24:25.629
the shape of the blade you use to avoid actually the different horizons of the soil to be mixed,

391
00:24:26.309 --> 00:24:31.113
trying to keep the residues on top of the soil and not

392
00:24:32.277 --> 00:24:38.400
having the soil naked and make the residues of the previous crop integrated in the soil.

393
00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.161
Those are all very valid principles,

394
00:24:42.261 --> 00:24:43.602
but they are principles,

395
00:24:43.602 --> 00:24:44.382
they are not rules.

396
00:24:45.783 --> 00:24:49.344
So the idea basically is to try and disturb the soil as little as possible,

397
00:24:49.804 --> 00:24:51.785
so that the microbial life can thrive.

398
00:24:52.281 --> 00:25:08.552
that we have the earthworms and the mycorrhizal fungi growing all these things and they're really really important for soil health and we're trying to disturb that as little as possible but we still need to our crops to grow without being dogmatic and having your shovel to

399
00:25:08.732 --> 00:25:20.901
check if you're if you have compaction in your soil and if the soil life is not able to rest to restructure that unfortunately you have to help this community or

400
00:25:42.181 --> 00:26:00.156
to accelerate that regenerative transition and that's the reason why i'm a big fan of soil capital and i'm really proud to be partnering with them for the deep seed podcast okay so moving on from soil disturbance and tillage to yeah so second principle is uh the

401
00:26:00.196 --> 00:26:10.784
fact that we uh like to have the soil covered with living plants all year round so that's the the goal

402
00:26:12.441 --> 00:26:13.001
Practically,

403
00:26:13.482 --> 00:26:15.643
this means that in RegenHack,

404
00:26:15.723 --> 00:26:23.969
you should try to have a crop or what we call a cover crop between the cash crop in your fields,

405
00:26:24.290 --> 00:26:24.630
living,

406
00:26:24.890 --> 00:26:25.370
thriving,

407
00:26:26.131 --> 00:26:27.612
growing in your fields all year round.

408
00:26:28.353 --> 00:26:30.174
And that's,

409
00:26:32.155 --> 00:26:32.816
again,

410
00:26:32.856 --> 00:26:35.338
a principle that has to be adapted because...

411
00:26:36.290 --> 00:26:37.111
In the real life,

412
00:26:37.731 --> 00:26:39.332
when you have harvested your field,

413
00:26:39.892 --> 00:26:43.374
you need some time to apply compost,

414
00:26:44.375 --> 00:26:52.819
to do some weeding to avoid to have too much thistles or other grasses.

415
00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:57.362
If you want to reduce your herbicide consumption,

416
00:26:57.462 --> 00:27:03.565
sometimes the mechanical work will be necessary to control those weeds.

417
00:27:03.685 --> 00:27:03.805
So,

418
00:27:04.826 --> 00:27:05.366
Practically,

419
00:27:05.687 --> 00:27:09.909
between two cycles of crop or after one harvest,

420
00:27:10.310 --> 00:27:15.153
you have sometimes a few weeks of soil without coverage.

421
00:27:15.273 --> 00:27:20.096
And that's something in a certain number of cases we should accept.

422
00:27:21.117 --> 00:27:31.764
What we are trying to advise to integrate in many of the farms we work with is to integrate what we call a permanent or semi-permanent pasture.

423
00:27:31.984 --> 00:27:33.906
So in a rotation.

424
00:27:35.406 --> 00:27:38.767
with the different cash crop and the different cover crop between the cash crop,

425
00:27:39.167 --> 00:27:41.848
we're trying to integrate every

426
00:27:42.769 --> 00:27:43.229
10 years,

427
00:27:44.109 --> 00:27:46.150
one or two years of pasture.

428
00:27:47.010 --> 00:27:51.071
So a moment where the soil is not touched,

429
00:27:51.511 --> 00:27:54.252
is fully covered with the pasture,

430
00:27:54.952 --> 00:28:00.994
that seems to be very efficient to give a boost of health.

431
00:28:01.234 --> 00:28:18.529
to your soil in organic agriculture this is also a moment where we can produce nitrogen if you if you cover your soil with legumes to produce some some nitrogen for the next crop so that's the second principle soil coverage yeah

432
00:28:19.169 --> 00:28:19.309
um

433
00:28:20.010 --> 00:28:20.130
Yeah,

434
00:28:20.450 --> 00:28:20.570
yeah,

435
00:28:20.570 --> 00:28:20.810
I see.

436
00:28:22.231 --> 00:28:25.332
When you're talking about these short periods of time between crops,

437
00:28:25.372 --> 00:28:30.393
where sometimes you have to keep the soil bare for a few days or a few weeks.

438
00:28:31.534 --> 00:28:35.035
But the reality is that when I'm driving through the countryside in the winter,

439
00:28:35.875 --> 00:28:37.116
almost everything is bare.

440
00:28:37.356 --> 00:28:38.716
All of the farmland that

441
00:28:39.416 --> 00:28:41.257
I see is actually bare.

442
00:28:41.337 --> 00:28:42.998
And what you're saying here is that...

443
00:28:44.979 --> 00:28:51.302
you should avoid that as much as possible and you should have your soil covered at all times with a living plant with a living root in the soil.

444
00:28:52.623 --> 00:28:55.965
So maybe you could explain why that is so important?

445
00:28:57.526 --> 00:29:03.189
The reason for that is actually there are multiple reasons for that to be.

446
00:29:04.790 --> 00:29:05.450
To be short,

447
00:29:06.071 --> 00:29:09.873
you have to see a field that is green,

448
00:29:10.513 --> 00:29:14.836
like a solar panel that would produce electricity.

449
00:29:15.336 --> 00:29:21.799
So a field that is green means that it's a field where you have plants,

450
00:29:21.799 --> 00:29:22.159
crops,

451
00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:26.782
who are active with their photosynthesis,

452
00:29:27.762 --> 00:29:29.523
meaning that they are producing,

453
00:29:30.484 --> 00:29:34.126
transforming the sunlight into sugar and the sugar are

454
00:29:35.146 --> 00:29:35.807
feeding the plant,

455
00:29:35.847 --> 00:29:36.988
but also feeding the soil.

456
00:29:37.128 --> 00:29:38.449
And they are producing biomass,

457
00:29:38.489 --> 00:29:44.513
they're producing potential food for the soil and the next crop.

458
00:29:45.233 --> 00:29:47.795
So each time you see a green field,

459
00:29:47.975 --> 00:29:50.637
it means that this field is active.

460
00:29:51.357 --> 00:29:53.418
If you don't have that coverage,

461
00:29:53.458 --> 00:29:54.699
if you see a brown field,

462
00:29:55.179 --> 00:29:58.081
this means that the soil is not covered with plants,

463
00:29:58.622 --> 00:29:58.782
not...

464
00:29:59.162 --> 00:30:00.723
no photosynthesis,

465
00:30:01.443 --> 00:30:03.004
and therefore no activity.

466
00:30:03.744 --> 00:30:04.745
The field is not active,

467
00:30:04.805 --> 00:30:06.165
the soil is not regenerating,

468
00:30:07.426 --> 00:30:09.987
the microbes in the soil are not fed,

469
00:30:10.707 --> 00:30:12.168
and this is a soil that is actually,

470
00:30:13.088 --> 00:30:13.969
in the best case,

471
00:30:14.689 --> 00:30:17.150
in a standby situation,

472
00:30:17.791 --> 00:30:19.011
but in most of the case,

473
00:30:19.211 --> 00:30:22.053
in a potentially phase of degradation,

474
00:30:22.373 --> 00:30:25.014
because on top of the fact that it is not

475
00:30:25.702 --> 00:30:27.544
photosynthetically active,

476
00:30:28.124 --> 00:30:33.388
is not also covered and protected from the rain to erosion,

477
00:30:33.609 --> 00:30:34.910
from the wind to erosion.

478
00:30:35.830 --> 00:30:40.094
And so this is a soil that in most of the case is losing fertility.

479
00:30:40.574 --> 00:30:45.878
So that's the basic principle of a soil to be covered with living plants.

480
00:30:46.159 --> 00:30:46.379
Right,

481
00:30:46.519 --> 00:30:46.659
yeah.

482
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:50.722
I remembered something I learned in a previous episode with a soil scientist.

483
00:30:50.782 --> 00:30:52.664
We were talking about mycorrhizal fungi.

484
00:30:52.764 --> 00:30:55.026
So these are like the mushroom...

485
00:30:55.426 --> 00:30:58.787
networks in the soil that connect with the root of plants,

486
00:30:59.068 --> 00:30:59.288
right?

487
00:30:59.388 --> 00:30:59.908
And they're really,

488
00:30:59.948 --> 00:31:02.409
really helpful because they can go very,

489
00:31:02.489 --> 00:31:07.111
very far away from the plants and collect nutrients and water and whatever the plant needs.

490
00:31:07.111 --> 00:31:11.593
So they're super charging the soil fertility and health,

491
00:31:11.773 --> 00:31:12.053
right?

492
00:31:12.613 --> 00:31:12.813
And

493
00:31:13.394 --> 00:31:16.135
I remember she explained that those fungi,

494
00:31:16.155 --> 00:31:18.756
they cannot survive without a living root.

495
00:31:19.156 --> 00:31:21.417
They need a living root as a companion to survive.

496
00:31:21.437 --> 00:31:23.178
And so if you leave a soil bare for too long,

497
00:31:23.198 --> 00:31:23.518
I guess.

498
00:31:24.270 --> 00:31:26.673
they cannot survive on your field and you lose all of them.

499
00:31:27.193 --> 00:31:30.236
Another good reason to keep your soil covered at all times.

500
00:31:31.117 --> 00:31:31.978
That's clear.

501
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:37.464
I'm not a soil scientist and I'm not sure that they can't survive.

502
00:31:38.072 --> 00:31:38.412
at all,

503
00:31:38.693 --> 00:31:42.995
but it is clear that you will not go in the direction of development of those mycorrhizae.

504
00:31:43.896 --> 00:31:57.425
And the first principle tillage and the second one soil coverage are both principles are actually important for those mycorrhizae because the tillage is actually also damaging the hyphae,

505
00:31:57.506 --> 00:32:00.388
so all the branches of those fungi.

506
00:32:02.369 --> 00:32:05.511
So in the case here of soil coverage,

507
00:32:06.172 --> 00:32:06.792
it sounds like it

508
00:32:06.872 --> 00:32:08.012
it has only benefits.

509
00:32:08.273 --> 00:32:10.353
It's protecting the soil from wind,

510
00:32:10.433 --> 00:32:11.714
from rain and erosion.

511
00:32:12.734 --> 00:32:15.095
It's producing a lot of photosynthesis,

512
00:32:15.135 --> 00:32:17.616
which is feeding the microbiology in the soil.

513
00:32:18.457 --> 00:32:20.097
The roots are growing everywhere in the soil,

514
00:32:20.117 --> 00:32:21.738
so it's helping with soil structure.

515
00:32:22.258 --> 00:32:22.458
I mean,

516
00:32:22.458 --> 00:32:23.619
it seems to have only benefits.

517
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:28.341
What's the reason why you don't see that more in the fields out in the winter?

518
00:32:28.961 --> 00:32:31.062
Those benefits are coming with a lot of challenges.

519
00:32:31.682 --> 00:32:32.863
I was talking about slugs,

520
00:32:32.883 --> 00:32:33.443
for example.

521
00:32:34.263 --> 00:32:35.664
Slugs love

522
00:32:36.692 --> 00:32:53.237
to have fields or soil covered and protection to survive and to to multiply so the first risk a farmer would see or not the first but one risk a farmer would see having a soil that is covered is

523
00:32:53.297 --> 00:33:04.840
the is the slug problem is okay this is i'm actually multiplying a pest here so the next crop will be very challenging because you'll have all these uh little slugs willing to eat my life

524
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:05.600
my crop.

525
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:10.723
So that's the first thing that is popping up in my mind.

526
00:33:10.723 --> 00:33:14.825
The second thing is a very simple challenge.

527
00:33:14.885 --> 00:33:16.366
How do you seed,

528
00:33:16.646 --> 00:33:23.910
how do you put a seed in a soil that is not clean and bare like the well-plowed fields?

529
00:33:24.131 --> 00:33:26.692
And we say in the common language,

530
00:33:27.472 --> 00:33:28.213
a clean field,

531
00:33:28.213 --> 00:33:29.133
a clean soil.

532
00:33:30.174 --> 00:33:33.856
How do you put a seed in a soil that is covered with a lot of

533
00:33:35.045 --> 00:33:35.585
residues.

534
00:33:35.865 --> 00:33:37.586
It's technically more challenging.

535
00:33:37.787 --> 00:33:41.830
This is also a bottleneck for a farmer who,

536
00:33:43.191 --> 00:33:43.611
as you said,

537
00:33:44.232 --> 00:33:46.894
the common sense would push him to cover his soil,

538
00:33:46.934 --> 00:33:49.896
but there is a technical challenge,

539
00:33:50.376 --> 00:33:57.922
meaning that probably these farmers have to invest in a new machine that is able to cut the residues and to properly produce.

540
00:33:58.022 --> 00:33:59.063
put the seed at the right place.

541
00:33:59.063 --> 00:34:01.827
So that's one thing.

542
00:34:01.867 --> 00:34:05.211
There is another important challenge is the soil temperature.

543
00:34:06.412 --> 00:34:07.153
In our countries,

544
00:34:07.153 --> 00:34:07.754
in the North,

545
00:34:08.695 --> 00:34:11.218
compared to Latin America and in the South,

546
00:34:11.819 --> 00:34:12.900
soil temperature is,

547
00:34:12.980 --> 00:34:29.493
a is a driver for the start of the crop for the germination of the crop so covering a soil with a lot of residue and having a seed that is supposed to germinate in this soil could

548
00:34:29.493 --> 00:34:41.603
be challenging because this this soil will always be a few degrees lower than a soil that is bare and so you will face in certain circumstances

549
00:34:42.844 --> 00:35:00.309
crop that are not germinating and not starting as well in the soil that is covered and cold compared to a soil that is plowed and hotter so that's another challenge just to give you a few yeah that's that's great that's what i wanted to know like yeah i

550
00:35:00.329 --> 00:35:11.852
hear so much about the benefits and i'm trying to understand what are the the challenges and that's the three of them and the price as well yeah and just to be clear and we will not go into the details but those three first challenges

551
00:35:12.660 --> 00:35:13.600
We can tackle that.

552
00:35:15.541 --> 00:35:15.981
The slugs,

553
00:35:15.981 --> 00:35:17.582
you can organize your rotation differently.

554
00:35:17.702 --> 00:35:21.083
You can also disturb your slugs without plowing the soils.

555
00:35:21.603 --> 00:35:22.683
The soil temperature,

556
00:35:22.783 --> 00:35:31.086
you can also compensate the lack of temperature with a little bit of tillage in the line of the seeds to open up a little bit the soil.

557
00:35:31.446 --> 00:35:33.506
If you put certain micronutrients,

558
00:35:33.506 --> 00:35:38.668
you can also give the boost that the seed would have had with the temperature,

559
00:35:38.708 --> 00:35:39.168
but with a...

560
00:35:39.648 --> 00:35:40.968
more of a micronutrient.

561
00:35:41.008 --> 00:35:42.569
So there are ways to do,

562
00:35:42.609 --> 00:35:43.349
but I mean,

563
00:35:43.569 --> 00:35:45.249
this is more complex.

564
00:35:46.030 --> 00:35:47.110
And to your question,

565
00:35:47.210 --> 00:35:47.330
CK,

566
00:35:47.470 --> 00:35:49.110
why people not doing that?

567
00:35:49.650 --> 00:35:50.351
It's so obvious.

568
00:35:51.071 --> 00:35:58.753
This complexity and the risk going together with this complexity is a reason why everybody's not doing that.

569
00:35:58.753 --> 00:35:58.873
Right.

570
00:35:58.853 --> 00:36:00.513
The complexity is really the key here.

571
00:36:00.853 --> 00:36:04.274
It's really complexifying a system and it means you have to learn new.

572
00:36:05.074 --> 00:36:05.575
concepts,

573
00:36:05.615 --> 00:36:07.476
you have to maybe invest in new machinery,

574
00:36:07.516 --> 00:36:09.558
you have to change the way you are doing things.

575
00:36:09.758 --> 00:36:11.459
That's hard by definition.

576
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:11.639
Yeah,

577
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:12.560
that's not natural.

578
00:36:14.161 --> 00:36:14.602
Makes sense.

579
00:36:14.882 --> 00:36:15.102
Okay.

580
00:36:16.303 --> 00:36:16.844
So yeah,

581
00:36:16.844 --> 00:36:19.846
we talked about the tillage and cover crops.

582
00:36:20.507 --> 00:36:20.627
Yeah.

583
00:36:21.147 --> 00:36:21.788
Soil coverage,

584
00:36:21.928 --> 00:36:29.154
there is another principle that we are trying to develop again in different ways.

585
00:36:29.914 --> 00:36:33.397
This is the reduction of the agrochemicals,

586
00:36:34.398 --> 00:36:34.518
the

587
00:36:34.558 --> 00:36:35.338
the petrochemicals,

588
00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:43.701
all the inputs that you apply in the fields that are coming from chemistry or not chemistry,

589
00:36:43.761 --> 00:36:47.402
it is not probably the right word because everything is coming from chemistry,

590
00:36:47.462 --> 00:36:50.642
but that are based on petrochemicals.

591
00:36:50.662 --> 00:36:55.384
I'm talking about the mineral fertilizers and the pesticides.

592
00:36:55.984 --> 00:37:03.306
It is more and more clear that those products that we use to assist

593
00:37:04.059 --> 00:37:05.551
the crop to grow

594
00:37:08.498 --> 00:37:15.003
haven't been always developed with the idea to not harm the soil health.

595
00:37:15.943 --> 00:37:23.209
And so we are trying to minimize the usage of those products.

596
00:37:23.669 --> 00:37:26.531
For some products like the fungicide and insecticides,

597
00:37:27.092 --> 00:37:27.812
it's more obvious.

598
00:37:28.372 --> 00:37:32.035
We understand that we want to develop the fungi of the soil.

599
00:37:32.656 --> 00:37:34.457
If you apply fungicides on your crop,

600
00:37:34.957 --> 00:37:35.898
it is highly...

601
00:37:36.426 --> 00:37:51.158
It's probable that this part of this fungicide will be actually applied to your soil or will end up to the soil and probably will harm the fungi of the soil that you are trying to develop or the insect of the soil that you're trying to feed and to develop.

602
00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:55.102
So this third principle of regenerative agriculture is.

603
00:37:56.450 --> 00:37:56.770
Again,

604
00:37:57.291 --> 00:37:58.551
not in a dogmatic way,

605
00:37:58.591 --> 00:38:03.935
but trying as much as possible to decrease those molecules.

606
00:38:05.015 --> 00:38:05.896
On the fertilizer,

607
00:38:05.956 --> 00:38:07.857
this is also the idea.

608
00:38:07.897 --> 00:38:13.660
This is the other part of this group when we talk about agrochemicals.

609
00:38:14.921 --> 00:38:19.063
And we also understand that if you feed a plant with fertilizer,

610
00:38:19.063 --> 00:38:22.646
it's like feeding someone with a...

611
00:38:24.007 --> 00:38:26.148
McDonald's or fast food,

612
00:38:27.129 --> 00:38:27.990
it's very efficient,

613
00:38:28.791 --> 00:38:31.913
making people or plants growing fast.

614
00:38:32.434 --> 00:38:36.037
But it comes with a lot of potential problems,

615
00:38:36.177 --> 00:38:39.460
which we know with the fast food and on humans,

616
00:38:39.560 --> 00:38:42.222
you're going to grow fast and you're going to be fat fast.

617
00:38:42.583 --> 00:38:49.309
But you better have to be properly equipped with medicines to be resistant or at least to assist you.

618
00:38:51.190 --> 00:38:51.751
be sick.

619
00:38:52.432 --> 00:38:52.953
For the plant,

620
00:38:53.073 --> 00:38:55.115
we see the crop,

621
00:38:55.155 --> 00:38:55.836
we see the same.

622
00:38:55.876 --> 00:38:57.358
So a crop,

623
00:38:57.378 --> 00:38:59.962
a field that will be fully depending.

624
00:39:01.283 --> 00:39:14.212
on nitrogen and well fed with mineral nitrogen is a crop that will probably be more susceptible in terms of fungi,

625
00:39:14.352 --> 00:39:15.012
insects and so on.

626
00:39:15.132 --> 00:39:16.573
It's a vicious circle.

627
00:39:16.573 --> 00:39:19.335
The more chemical fertilizer you use,

628
00:39:19.335 --> 00:39:22.918
the more likely it is that this crop is going to be susceptible.

629
00:39:22.958 --> 00:39:23.238
Weaker.

630
00:39:23.638 --> 00:39:23.759
Yeah,

631
00:39:23.779 --> 00:39:24.579
he's going to be weaker,

632
00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:28.082
his defenses and he's going to be more susceptible to have issues with...

633
00:39:29.182 --> 00:39:31.803
with fungi and pests.

634
00:39:32.004 --> 00:39:32.164
Yeah,

635
00:39:32.184 --> 00:39:33.744
so on this one,

636
00:39:34.265 --> 00:39:39.687
practically what we do with our different project companies,

637
00:39:40.427 --> 00:39:46.150
we're trying to be very pragmatic with the farmers because saying that we have to stop tomorrow,

638
00:39:46.370 --> 00:39:46.930
it's very,

639
00:39:47.310 --> 00:39:47.531
again,

640
00:39:47.591 --> 00:39:48.611
dogmatic and drastic.

641
00:39:49.531 --> 00:39:54.834
There is a lot of way to reduce significantly the amount of pesticides.

642
00:39:56.754 --> 00:40:01.736
And the first way to do that is just to see how we can optimize the spraying.

643
00:40:01.856 --> 00:40:14.662
And it can be a bit shocking to talk about how to optimize your pesticide usage or application when we come with the hat of region ag.

644
00:40:15.643 --> 00:40:15.963
Actually,

645
00:40:17.864 --> 00:40:23.026
I was surprised and I'm still surprised to see how many farmers sometimes are not.

646
00:40:23.474 --> 00:40:30.157
understanding properly how they could reduce the quantity of pesticides just based on

647
00:40:31.366 --> 00:40:33.828
the quality of the water they're using in the sprayer,

648
00:40:35.449 --> 00:40:39.733
the weather conditions when the products are used,

649
00:40:40.713 --> 00:40:43.936
the way they are being advised to use these products,

650
00:40:44.597 --> 00:40:47.119
not by the seller of this product,

651
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:48.860
by independent advisor.

652
00:40:49.300 --> 00:40:50.281
So all these things,

653
00:40:51.682 --> 00:40:58.688
we're trying to work with the farmers to see how can we leverage all different possibilities to reduce your pesticides.

654
00:40:58.688 --> 00:40:58.808
So,

655
00:40:59.108 --> 00:41:00.249
um,

656
00:41:01.105 --> 00:41:01.225
Yeah,

657
00:41:01.565 --> 00:41:02.966
maybe it sounds shocking to some,

658
00:41:03.326 --> 00:41:04.006
but I don't think so.

659
00:41:04.346 --> 00:41:05.147
I think it makes sense.

660
00:41:05.227 --> 00:41:09.228
The idea here is to try and reduce the harm you're doing to your soil,

661
00:41:09.248 --> 00:41:11.229
to your ecosystem more and more,

662
00:41:11.449 --> 00:41:17.352
and over time regenerate that ecosystem so that it relies less and less on those products,

663
00:41:17.972 --> 00:41:20.233
whether it's the tillage and disturbance of the soil,

664
00:41:20.293 --> 00:41:21.473
whether it's with chemicals,

665
00:41:21.553 --> 00:41:23.714
whether it's with other things like that.

666
00:41:25.075 --> 00:41:27.176
Yeah,

667
00:41:27.176 --> 00:41:27.756
you understand that,

668
00:41:27.756 --> 00:41:30.097
or you will understand that I'm really...

669
00:41:30.717 --> 00:41:32.780
but I know the experience,

670
00:41:33.421 --> 00:41:33.601
but

671
00:41:35.083 --> 00:41:49.081
I'm trying not to be dogmatic and extremist because this is this is working for a very small amount of farmers who are super convinced and motivated to take a high risk to go for it.

672
00:41:49.221 --> 00:41:51.162
pure regions of agriculture,

673
00:41:52.942 --> 00:41:55.003
ticking all the boxes 100%,

674
00:41:55.203 --> 00:41:59.264
but this is only a very small number of farmers in a small number of conditions.

675
00:41:59.804 --> 00:42:04.625
What interests me is how to get a bigger number of farmers,

676
00:42:04.745 --> 00:42:05.846
conventional farmers,

677
00:42:06.506 --> 00:42:10.807
how to translate those principles into something that is affordable for them.

678
00:42:12.027 --> 00:42:13.188
And what we've discovered,

679
00:42:13.328 --> 00:42:17.009
what we've experienced for these last years is that actually,

680
00:42:17.729 --> 00:42:32.739
when you give the possibility to a farmer some tools or some recommendation to make the first steps as we do with soil capital and the carbon certification as we do with Cultivae with this market for the farmers who are implementing

681
00:42:32.799 --> 00:42:46.429
region act practices the farmer at least will have a first taste of what it is to have a soil that is going in a better direction and then if you succeed there

682
00:42:47.593 --> 00:42:52.642
the pump is primed and things will happen much more positively,

683
00:42:52.762 --> 00:42:54.425
constructively and naturally.

684
00:42:56.809 --> 00:42:58.392
I think it makes a lot of sense.

685
00:42:59.434 --> 00:43:00.776
As human beings we

686
00:43:01.577 --> 00:43:02.558
We hate change,

687
00:43:02.638 --> 00:43:02.818
right?

688
00:43:02.858 --> 00:43:03.478
We're really bad.

689
00:43:03.498 --> 00:43:04.019
We change.

690
00:43:04.559 --> 00:43:05.680
Changing what we eat,

691
00:43:06.540 --> 00:43:07.401
what we believe in,

692
00:43:07.741 --> 00:43:09.222
the things we do or habits,

693
00:43:09.302 --> 00:43:12.644
like changing anything for human beings is really hard.

694
00:43:13.284 --> 00:43:13.585
And so

695
00:43:14.245 --> 00:43:15.386
I can only imagine,

696
00:43:15.426 --> 00:43:16.326
because I'm not a farmer,

697
00:43:16.967 --> 00:43:24.372
but I can only imagine for a farmer who's been doing things a certain way their whole lives because this is what society has asked them to do,

698
00:43:24.992 --> 00:43:26.493
this is what's been advised by there.

699
00:43:27.113 --> 00:43:28.855
agronomists and advisors and so on.

700
00:43:29.395 --> 00:43:32.017
This is what their parents and grandparents were doing before them.

701
00:43:32.537 --> 00:43:40.424
And then all of a sudden you come to them and tell them everything you've been doing your whole life is wrong and you should completely change your whole system.

702
00:43:42.345 --> 00:43:46.609
It's probably not the best way to go and for very good reasons.

703
00:43:47.089 --> 00:43:56.197
And therefore if you approach things from the angle of well here is a small change you can make and here is an attractive reward for making that change.

704
00:43:56.981 --> 00:44:00.363
That's a much more attractive proposition,

705
00:44:00.383 --> 00:44:00.704
I think.

706
00:44:00.844 --> 00:44:05.587
And if things work out and if that change turns out to be positive for the farmer,

707
00:44:06.668 --> 00:44:10.170
then they might be inclined to do more and to go further in that direction.

708
00:44:10.871 --> 00:44:12.412
So that's why I think this is a really,

709
00:44:12.472 --> 00:44:14.113
really interesting way to approach things.

710
00:44:14.413 --> 00:44:14.533
Yeah,

711
00:44:14.733 --> 00:44:15.914
it's an incremental thing.

712
00:44:17.015 --> 00:44:18.096
It's not something that you can...

713
00:44:18.536 --> 00:44:22.358
If you want to switch from convention to region ag,

714
00:44:23.579 --> 00:44:24.860
you're going to take a huge risk.

715
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:25.481
But if you...

716
00:44:26.257 --> 00:44:26.758
Draw a line,

717
00:44:26.778 --> 00:44:26.898
say,

718
00:44:26.898 --> 00:44:27.118
okay,

719
00:44:27.118 --> 00:44:29.920
I'm going to go step by step in the next five,

720
00:44:30.201 --> 00:44:30.701
seven years.

721
00:44:31.802 --> 00:44:37.667
It's much more natural and you're going to make this transition with much less risk.

722
00:44:39.088 --> 00:44:39.989
And the last principle,

723
00:44:40.029 --> 00:44:42.752
because we were still on the principle of region ag,

724
00:44:43.412 --> 00:44:49.077
is what we call the diversification or the context-specific design.

725
00:44:49.278 --> 00:44:52.961
We understand that introducing diversity

726
00:44:53.553 --> 00:44:56.575
in your system is bringing resilience,

727
00:44:57.115 --> 00:44:59.296
not only for your finance,

728
00:44:59.356 --> 00:45:02.538
but also for your soil health.

729
00:45:02.678 --> 00:45:03.079
And so,

730
00:45:03.359 --> 00:45:06.761
increase the duration and the number of crops you produce.

731
00:45:07.701 --> 00:45:11.804
Introducing a perennial crop once every 10 years,

732
00:45:12.004 --> 00:45:12.704
15 years,

733
00:45:13.345 --> 00:45:13.825
trying to...

734
00:45:14.745 --> 00:45:14.945
Sorry,

735
00:45:14.985 --> 00:45:15.746
what do you mean by that,

736
00:45:15.786 --> 00:45:17.047
introducing a perennial crop?

737
00:45:17.267 --> 00:45:17.467
Sorry,

738
00:45:17.607 --> 00:45:17.727
yeah,

739
00:45:18.047 --> 00:45:19.208
this is what I was referring to,

740
00:45:19.728 --> 00:45:20.349
the grassland,

741
00:45:20.349 --> 00:45:20.889
the pasture.

742
00:45:21.553 --> 00:45:26.218
So introducing a crop that would stay more than one year and that is not an annual crop.

743
00:45:26.659 --> 00:45:26.959
Actually,

744
00:45:27.420 --> 00:45:28.901
I don't think we call that a perennial crop.

745
00:45:30.843 --> 00:45:32.144
A semi-perennial crop,

746
00:45:32.525 --> 00:45:33.346
something that will stay.

747
00:45:33.646 --> 00:45:36.008
Or sometimes a perennial crop when you talk about trees,

748
00:45:36.028 --> 00:45:36.589
for example,

749
00:45:37.350 --> 00:45:38.471
which is a bit more extreme.

750
00:45:39.212 --> 00:45:40.993
Agroforestry is a way to diversify.

751
00:45:41.134 --> 00:45:44.317
It's still very unknown.

752
00:45:44.921 --> 00:45:45.421
and risky.

753
00:45:46.642 --> 00:45:53.805
But introducing grassland for one or two or three years into your rotation every 10,

754
00:45:53.925 --> 00:45:54.045
10,

755
00:45:54.105 --> 00:45:54.665
15 years,

756
00:45:55.205 --> 00:45:56.766
this is not something that is very risky.

757
00:45:58.214 --> 00:46:00.315
well understood and easy to do.

758
00:46:00.795 --> 00:46:06.498
There is maybe the financial part that you have to manage because you're going to lose some productivity,

759
00:46:06.598 --> 00:46:07.058
some profit.

760
00:46:08.298 --> 00:46:09.459
The introduction of animals,

761
00:46:09.819 --> 00:46:16.442
this is also something that many of your previous speakers have mentioned.

762
00:46:16.462 --> 00:46:18.463
So in many geographies,

763
00:46:18.683 --> 00:46:23.044
you have some herbivores that you could bring to the land,

764
00:46:23.785 --> 00:46:24.085
again,

765
00:46:24.265 --> 00:46:25.405
once every five,

766
00:46:25.505 --> 00:46:26.626
10 years to have some

767
00:46:27.414 --> 00:46:33.021
something grazed on your land is definitely something that is bringing value.

768
00:46:33.101 --> 00:46:34.102
So all of this,

769
00:46:34.903 --> 00:46:35.424
we put that,

770
00:46:35.864 --> 00:46:37.706
I put that in the box of diversity,

771
00:46:37.806 --> 00:46:42.111
which is the last principle of today's region.

772
00:46:43.533 --> 00:46:46.036
So usually the farmers you work with,

773
00:46:47.137 --> 00:46:47.398
what...

774
00:46:48.042 --> 00:46:51.564
motivated them the most to make that transition?

775
00:46:52.545 --> 00:46:52.945
In general,

776
00:46:53.086 --> 00:46:54.106
a better remuneration.

777
00:46:54.486 --> 00:46:59.049
They want to have a better price for the crop they're producing.

778
00:46:59.690 --> 00:47:02.192
And this is a driver for them.

779
00:47:02.952 --> 00:47:17.249
together with the fact that they are also proud to see where the product of their productions are transformed and what they're going to become having a farmer again

780
00:47:17.730 --> 00:47:19.411
talking about the beer producing barley,

781
00:47:20.271 --> 00:47:24.612
knowing that the barley is used to produce those different beers,

782
00:47:25.572 --> 00:47:26.233
Bertin Champ,

783
00:47:26.353 --> 00:47:26.833
Valduc,

784
00:47:27.933 --> 00:47:28.993
Brussels Beer Project,

785
00:47:29.654 --> 00:47:30.614
beers in Brussels,

786
00:47:31.234 --> 00:47:36.636
and then touching this product is also something that is important for a producer.

787
00:47:37.156 --> 00:47:37.956
I can imagine that.

788
00:47:38.076 --> 00:47:38.316
I mean,

789
00:47:38.496 --> 00:47:38.676
yeah,

790
00:47:38.676 --> 00:47:43.578
knowing that all the hard work you put in to grow this is going into making a final product that is...

791
00:47:44.370 --> 00:48:00.680
that is of such quality and that people will enjoy very much must be much more exciting than than you know knowing that it goes for feeding animals or for biofuel for example yeah and even for food the link has been lost and so the farmer producing

792
00:48:01.141 --> 00:48:09.726
even milling wheat today in the center of france they don't know where the wheat will will end up and then the flour so having this link

793
00:48:09.946 --> 00:48:26.700
transparent and clear for the farmer is an important as well an important fact the other fact is that i think we see more and more farmers concerned about how their soils and their system is evolving so now

794
00:48:26.740 --> 00:48:37.309
that we can measure a little bit more then there is more communication about soil and how the soil works and what we should have done and more and more farmers are much less

795
00:48:38.854 --> 00:48:41.398
opponents of this and much more open.

796
00:48:41.398 --> 00:48:41.658
It's like,

797
00:48:41.738 --> 00:48:41.878
yes,

798
00:48:41.938 --> 00:48:43.440
but that's something that makes sense.

799
00:48:44.101 --> 00:48:45.743
So those are three reasons.

800
00:48:45.783 --> 00:48:48.207
So the link between the consumer or the product,

801
00:48:48.227 --> 00:48:49.328
final product and the farmer,

802
00:48:49.869 --> 00:48:53.233
the financial rewards and the fact that

803
00:48:54.834 --> 00:48:58.776
it makes sense for the operation of their soils for the future.

804
00:49:00.556 --> 00:49:07.439
Let's talk about Cultivay because we mentioned it at the start of the conversation and we referenced it a few times since.

805
00:49:08.620 --> 00:49:11.281
Maybe you could tell us a little bit about what is Cultivay?

806
00:49:12.341 --> 00:49:16.663
So Cultivay is a cooperative we created seven years ago,

807
00:49:16.823 --> 00:49:17.163
I think,

808
00:49:17.803 --> 00:49:23.946
when we actually realized that having implemented

809
00:49:24.462 --> 00:49:30.227
region act practices in a certain number of farms in the region here in the center of Belgium,

810
00:49:31.048 --> 00:49:36.333
having achieved savings using more efficiently our pesticides,

811
00:49:36.773 --> 00:49:39.476
reducing the tillage and reducing the fuel consumptions.

812
00:49:40.417 --> 00:49:44.140
So having basically achieved

813
00:49:44.640 --> 00:49:50.446
70% of the potential of the savings and the cost benefit of those transition.

814
00:49:51.250 --> 00:49:56.314
And having also spent a lot of time investing in new practices,

815
00:49:56.714 --> 00:49:58.955
taking risks to develop that,

816
00:49:59.176 --> 00:50:00.556
to adapt that to the region,

817
00:50:01.317 --> 00:50:10.724
we were still selling our crop and our clients were still selling their crop in the same channels as a conventional farmer.

818
00:50:11.444 --> 00:50:12.925
And so we,

819
00:50:13.365 --> 00:50:14.566
as agronomists,

820
00:50:14.886 --> 00:50:15.527
consultants,

821
00:50:15.587 --> 00:50:16.067
farmers,

822
00:50:16.848 --> 00:50:19.950
we should develop a different link.

823
00:50:20.250 --> 00:50:25.736
between the farmers and the consumer and between the regenerative farmers and the consumer.

824
00:50:26.997 --> 00:50:30.120
We should try to create some value also.

825
00:50:30.720 --> 00:50:35.845
And so we very simply decided to talk with a few

826
00:50:37.614 --> 00:50:46.920
small craft breweries around us because there was a development of these new industries in the region here.

827
00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:54.666
So I asked guys if you would be interested or not to have local barley produced with Regenac principles.

828
00:50:54.706 --> 00:50:56.327
And very quickly,

829
00:50:56.347 --> 00:51:00.149
we had one or two guys interested to do that.

830
00:51:00.389 --> 00:51:03.271
There was a brewery close by here called Valduc.

831
00:51:04.012 --> 00:51:06.353
Another one also was very interested.

832
00:51:06.393 --> 00:51:06.654
And so...

833
00:51:07.534 --> 00:51:13.179
We started selling them a few tons of barley to produce beer.

834
00:51:13.780 --> 00:51:14.941
We had a collaboration with

835
00:51:15.462 --> 00:51:16.422
Moultrie to do that.

836
00:51:18.124 --> 00:51:28.534
And actually very quickly we understood that this was a good way to go because there was a certain traction from other breweries.

837
00:51:29.154 --> 00:51:35.858
The malter between the farmer and the brewer that we were working with,

838
00:51:35.978 --> 00:51:36.478
Bortmalt,

839
00:51:36.838 --> 00:51:41.100
was also interested to continue to develop this idea.

840
00:51:41.100 --> 00:51:47.864
And we had actually one employee of this big maltery,

841
00:51:47.964 --> 00:51:48.484
Bortmalt,

842
00:51:48.504 --> 00:51:52.266
who was really interested to understand about regenerative agriculture.

843
00:51:52.266 --> 00:51:56.569
There was a personal interest into that.

844
00:51:56.669 --> 00:51:56.809
And

845
00:51:57.249 --> 00:51:57.769
Alexander...

846
00:51:59.006 --> 00:52:06.150
decided to try to advocate and to speak to his clients who were buying molds,

847
00:52:06.310 --> 00:52:06.931
so the brewers,

848
00:52:07.511 --> 00:52:08.171
about Regenac.

849
00:52:08.271 --> 00:52:12.314
And he did a good job and very quickly we went from

850
00:52:12.894 --> 00:52:15.836
30 tons the first year to 100,

851
00:52:15.836 --> 00:52:17.317
200,

852
00:52:17.377 --> 00:52:18.938
500.

853
00:52:18.978 --> 00:52:22.820
And now we're going to produce a few thousand tons of regenerative bonding.

854
00:52:23.380 --> 00:52:25.842
And this was actually the beginning of the cooperative.

855
00:52:26.886 --> 00:52:27.407
In parallel,

856
00:52:27.607 --> 00:52:40.518
we also realized that producing and storing barley or cereals to sell to the industry is also something that you have to do professionally.

857
00:52:41.079 --> 00:52:41.739
You can do that.

858
00:52:41.819 --> 00:52:45.242
You can do one trailer and store it in your warehouse.

859
00:52:45.803 --> 00:52:46.483
That's no problem.

860
00:52:46.583 --> 00:52:48.645
But if you have to store more,

861
00:52:49.146 --> 00:52:50.647
you have to build infrastructure.

862
00:52:50.867 --> 00:52:52.989
That was one important...

863
00:52:54.314 --> 00:53:10.800
conclusion from the beginning so having the facility to do that second important observation is that you can't do that alone one farmer as we were doing at the beginning we were just working together with one

864
00:53:11.420 --> 00:53:16.322
friend nicola again producing this barley for one brewery

865
00:53:18.563 --> 00:53:19.523
You can do that one year,

866
00:53:19.664 --> 00:53:20.064
two years,

867
00:53:20.484 --> 00:53:23.206
but the day we don't have the quality to deliver,

868
00:53:24.006 --> 00:53:24.747
you have a problem.

869
00:53:25.347 --> 00:53:40.857
And so the idea of collaborating with a number of farmers to de-risk this project and also to ensure to our growing brewers that we're going to have the quality year after year and

870
00:53:40.897 --> 00:53:42.698
that the day they're going to print.

871
00:53:43.566 --> 00:53:48.568
on their stickers that it's local regenerative barley used for the beer,

872
00:53:49.408 --> 00:53:52.269
we will be able to continue the production every year.

873
00:53:52.889 --> 00:53:56.590
So that was an important factor to scale,

874
00:53:56.710 --> 00:53:57.970
is to put farmers together,

875
00:53:59.051 --> 00:54:03.032
not only to share that with many farmers and to have a bigger impact,

876
00:54:03.752 --> 00:54:06.873
just for the security of supply and quality.

877
00:54:07.293 --> 00:54:08.994
So that was the two elements.

878
00:54:10.602 --> 00:54:13.764
we faced when we started the cooperative.

879
00:54:15.045 --> 00:54:16.567
And so how has it gone so far?

880
00:54:17.828 --> 00:54:19.849
How many farmers do you have now in the cooperative?

881
00:54:20.630 --> 00:54:20.930
Today,

882
00:54:22.972 --> 00:54:23.552
as I said,

883
00:54:23.632 --> 00:54:26.434
we increased the volumes to a few thousand tons.

884
00:54:26.574 --> 00:54:29.897
We're going to reach 10,000 tons soon of production.

885
00:54:30.998 --> 00:54:36.422
And we've been very surprised because we've developed storage.

886
00:54:37.166 --> 00:54:38.487
and sorting,

887
00:54:38.587 --> 00:54:40.068
cleaning activities as well.

888
00:54:40.728 --> 00:54:44.110
But those infrastructures are not big enough.

889
00:54:44.170 --> 00:54:57.416
So we are partnering with other merchants or corporatives to use and death farmer also to produce for the different industries we are working with.

890
00:54:57.977 --> 00:54:59.958
So the barley was the start,

891
00:55:00.318 --> 00:55:04.780
but we also for the last year developed partnership with other.

892
00:55:05.620 --> 00:55:06.101
industries,

893
00:55:06.201 --> 00:55:06.922
agro industries.

894
00:55:07.342 --> 00:55:15.430
So we now work with people who are using wheat for the flour and the bread.

895
00:55:15.811 --> 00:55:20.135
We are working with people using oats to do milk.

896
00:55:21.737 --> 00:55:25.260
We are also working with people who are using spelt,

897
00:55:26.422 --> 00:55:28.063
rye and different...

898
00:55:28.884 --> 00:55:33.328
So there's some connections being made with other actors trying to do something similar to you,

899
00:55:33.448 --> 00:55:37.872
but in different fields with different crops and this sort of synergies between you.

900
00:55:38.252 --> 00:55:38.432
Yeah,

901
00:55:38.472 --> 00:55:48.161
and I think it was the first idea is and was to enable a regenerative farmer to value not only one crop,

902
00:55:48.201 --> 00:55:50.983
but several crops into dedicated value chain.

903
00:55:51.444 --> 00:55:53.085
So that was the first idea.

904
00:55:53.866 --> 00:55:56.128
The second idea was also to bring.

905
00:55:56.248 --> 00:56:13.315
to the same table a certain number of agro industries and hopefully this is not completely materialized today but to create some synergies and some common way of measuring regenerative agriculture defining

906
00:56:13.335 --> 00:56:24.080
a premium for the farmers and to have that together with these industries and not having danone that we work for for example would define a certain framework and having a

907
00:56:24.824 --> 00:56:25.304
Puratos,

908
00:56:25.385 --> 00:56:26.365
we work with them as well,

909
00:56:26.866 --> 00:56:32.771
would define also another way of measuring and a different way of to be in relationship with the farmer.

910
00:56:32.771 --> 00:56:42.318
So the cooperative wanted to try to make the link between those different agro-industries and the different farmers and the different production.

911
00:56:42.378 --> 00:56:44.120
That was also an idea too.

912
00:56:44.476 --> 00:56:59.686
to try to to contribute to certain harmonization of the way we we reproduce the way we build those those value chain okay and we're working today with a little bit more than 100 farmers so more

913
00:56:59.686 --> 00:57:04.990
or less the footprint of the the cooperative would be around 10 000 hectares today

914
00:57:05.510 --> 00:57:07.631
10 000 15 000 hectares yeah

915
00:57:08.780 --> 00:57:20.732
It's been exactly a year now since I started the Deep Seat podcast and I can't believe how many amazing conversations I've had and how much I've learned in just one year through these conversations.

916
00:57:21.372 --> 00:57:21.773
And

917
00:57:22.273 --> 00:57:28.639
I wanted to say that I'm extremely grateful for all of you who keep coming back week after week to listen to the episodes.

918
00:57:29.160 --> 00:57:33.504
We now have over 2,700 subscribed members.

919
00:57:34.164 --> 00:57:35.965
on the different platforms of the Deep Seed.

920
00:57:36.625 --> 00:57:37.925
And that's just amazing.

921
00:57:37.945 --> 00:57:39.145
So thank you so much for that.

922
00:57:39.426 --> 00:57:40.926
And if you're not subscribed yet,

923
00:57:41.026 --> 00:57:44.007
but you enjoy listening to the Deep Seed,

924
00:57:44.007 --> 00:57:45.307
you would like to support my work.

925
00:57:46.007 --> 00:57:46.147
Well,

926
00:57:46.147 --> 00:57:47.708
that's actually super easy.

927
00:57:47.708 --> 00:57:48.988
You can do that in five seconds.

928
00:57:49.008 --> 00:57:52.029
So whichever platform you're using right now to listen to this episode,

929
00:57:52.409 --> 00:57:56.490
just click on the Deep Seed page and hit the follow or subscribe button.

930
00:57:57.291 --> 00:57:57.991
And that's it really.

931
00:57:58.151 --> 00:57:58.931
So super easy.

932
00:57:59.151 --> 00:58:00.471
Thank you so much in advance.

933
00:58:00.611 --> 00:58:01.472
Really appreciate it.

934
00:58:01.692 --> 00:58:02.112
And,

935
00:58:02.192 --> 00:58:02.592
uh...

936
00:58:03.538 --> 00:58:04.663
Enjoy the rest of the conversation.

937
00:58:07.608 --> 00:58:08.889
At the beginning of the conversation,

938
00:58:08.889 --> 00:58:15.714
you were telling me that you want to create more value for regenerative farmers and for regenerative products.

939
00:58:16.615 --> 00:58:19.897
Is that something you've been able to achieve so far with Cultivay?

940
00:58:21.218 --> 00:58:23.500
I would say we're trying to reach

941
00:58:24.080 --> 00:58:25.081
100, 200,

942
00:58:25.281 --> 00:58:28.203
300 euros per hectare of additional value.

943
00:58:29.044 --> 00:58:34.628
This is just an idea that I give you because depending on the different crops,

944
00:58:34.788 --> 00:58:35.129
organic,

945
00:58:35.190 --> 00:58:35.771
not organic,

946
00:58:36.533 --> 00:58:37.195
it can vary.

947
00:58:39.444 --> 00:58:40.065
In my view,

948
00:58:40.585 --> 00:58:45.049
we are trying to be at least at the level of the subsidies,

949
00:58:45.109 --> 00:58:50.253
just to link this to the discussion we had about the subsidy at the beginning of the...

950
00:58:50.833 --> 00:58:52.295
So the farmers that you work with,

951
00:58:52.335 --> 00:58:53.576
and yourself included,

952
00:58:53.696 --> 00:58:59.240
have really seen the value of your production increase and your margins increase,

953
00:58:59.280 --> 00:58:59.500
right?

954
00:58:59.941 --> 00:59:00.121
Yes.

955
00:59:00.861 --> 00:59:01.502
That's the whole idea.

956
00:59:02.723 --> 00:59:04.144
We should measure that better.

957
00:59:04.264 --> 00:59:08.768
But the goal when we discuss with the farmers and the agronomists about...

958
00:59:09.540 --> 00:59:26.597
the prices to increase the value in this range the other aspect is the volatility of the price we're trying to decrease the volatility of the price for the farmer because

959
00:59:26.917 --> 00:59:28.179
we believe that this is also

960
00:59:30.337 --> 00:59:40.375
very damageable actually for the old value chain to have a wheat at 150 euro today like it is the case and a wheat at

961
00:59:41.432 --> 00:59:47.116
350 euros one year and a half ago with this huge difference of price.

962
00:59:47.616 --> 00:59:49.458
It's very difficult for a farmer,

963
00:59:49.498 --> 00:59:53.961
but also for an agro industry to build long term plan.

964
00:59:54.581 --> 01:00:06.470
And so what the other aspect on top of the better price compared to the market that we're trying to bring in this value chain is a stability of

965
01:00:07.382 --> 01:00:07.903
of price.

966
01:00:08.583 --> 01:00:09.384
How do you achieve that?

967
01:00:10.445 --> 01:00:11.566
So it's easy.

968
01:00:11.746 --> 01:00:25.998
We're trying to through mechanisms of average price to see how we can set a price that is not the top premium price that we can have once every 20 years,

969
01:00:26.618 --> 01:00:30.762
but also not the lowest price we can have every five years.

970
01:00:31.682 --> 01:00:35.426
And so we're trying to have a price that is in between.

971
01:00:36.226 --> 01:00:40.388
So that price you negotiated with the buyers in advance for a long period of time?

972
01:00:40.408 --> 01:00:41.369
Is that how it works?

973
01:00:42.289 --> 01:00:44.210
Most of the time we negotiate the price every year,

974
01:00:44.511 --> 01:00:57.298
looking at the historical price of the last years in order to be sure that we will be always above average with this additional premium that we were talking about.

975
01:00:59.439 --> 01:01:05.382
And we are exploring different ways of making this average price fitting with what...

976
01:01:05.462 --> 01:01:09.309
what farmers need and what the industry needs as well.

977
01:01:10.011 --> 01:01:15.862
But we are systematically having a discussion on price stability.

978
01:01:16.383 --> 01:01:16.563
Okay.

979
01:01:16.804 --> 01:01:17.705
Yeah.

980
01:01:18.770 --> 01:01:21.533
How do you measure and monitor the performance,

981
01:01:21.553 --> 01:01:25.997
the regenerative performance of the farmers and the farms and the crops?

982
01:01:26.057 --> 01:01:28.879
Because I'm guessing you're going to your customers,

983
01:01:30.621 --> 01:01:32.182
explaining the methods you're using,

984
01:01:32.222 --> 01:01:38.708
explaining the improvements it makes in biodiversity and soil health and all of these things.

985
01:01:40.029 --> 01:01:41.130
How do you sort of measure,

986
01:01:41.350 --> 01:01:44.293
quantify that and communicate that to your buyers?

987
01:01:44.413 --> 01:01:45.574
I think that's a great question.

988
01:01:45.714 --> 01:01:46.635
That's an important part.

989
01:01:47.055 --> 01:01:50.177
We have developed a framework,

990
01:01:50.918 --> 01:01:56.522
a regenerative agriculture framework that is actually registered now at EU level.

991
01:01:56.923 --> 01:01:59.705
This is called regenerative agriculture certification.

992
01:02:00.445 --> 01:02:04.188
And we have developed that for the different crops we produce.

993
01:02:04.728 --> 01:02:11.293
And this is a framework that is measuring what the farmers are doing or not doing.

994
01:02:12.154 --> 01:02:31.122
and we have in this framework different stages that is actually classifying you the farmer as a beginner as a intermediate or as a full regenerative farmers we use a mix of different ids that we found in the markets and in other certification projects

995
01:02:31.783 --> 01:02:39.146
to develop that and this is a way for us to measure what the farmers are doing also to link

996
01:02:39.466 --> 01:02:56.336
to this the incentives and the premium we give to the farmers but also to reassure the buyer that the farmers are doing stuffs and they're changing practices what's very important for us is also to see that the farms are moving and

997
01:02:56.376 --> 01:03:06.502
so we are in our contract we are also asking the farmers to change from one one stage to another if he wants to stay in business business with us

998
01:03:07.678 --> 01:03:10.179
Another metric that we are using since

999
01:03:10.579 --> 01:03:16.841
Solcapital developed that is the carbon footprint that is part of this framework.

1000
01:03:16.961 --> 01:03:31.845
So we have a set of practices but also we are measuring the carbon footprint of the farmer because we feel that this is a good metric on top of the practices to understand with a more

1001
01:03:31.945 --> 01:03:35.846
granular way where the farmer is with the figure harmony.

1002
01:03:36.486 --> 01:03:53.754
tons of carbon are you emitting how many tons of carbon are you able to sequester in your soil and we are also so certifying that true soil capital in order for the buyer to use that figures to integrate that figures in their carbon

1003
01:03:53.834 --> 01:04:03.618
accounting what we call the scope tree and so some buyers are coming to us because they know that they're going to be able to use the the real carbon footprint

1004
01:04:04.190 --> 01:04:11.056
improved carbon footprint of our farmer in order to decrease their carbon footprint at the level of their industry.

1005
01:04:11.156 --> 01:04:14.218
So this is also a way to have attraction.

1006
01:04:14.238 --> 01:04:18.141
That's a big incentive from industry at the moment.

1007
01:04:18.161 --> 01:04:18.902
So a lot of them,

1008
01:04:19.543 --> 01:04:21.424
they're trying to reduce their carbon emissions.

1009
01:04:22.365 --> 01:04:25.187
And so the idea here is that regenerative farmers,

1010
01:04:25.728 --> 01:04:28.670
instead of emitting carbon sequester carbon in the soil,

1011
01:04:29.030 --> 01:04:30.071
and through soil capital,

1012
01:04:30.071 --> 01:04:31.973
you can sort of certify how much.

1013
01:04:32.193 --> 01:04:33.094
Measure and certify.

1014
01:04:33.294 --> 01:04:33.414
Yeah.

1015
01:04:35.494 --> 01:04:41.857
And that's another extra incentive for those buyers to buy those products,

1016
01:04:42.597 --> 01:04:44.297
those ingredients in the first place,

1017
01:04:44.698 --> 01:04:47.839
because they can then use that in their carbon accounting.

1018
01:04:48.279 --> 01:04:49.139
Exactly.

1019
01:04:52.992 --> 01:04:56.295
the core driver for the industry to buy regenerative?

1020
01:04:56.395 --> 01:05:03.161
Or is there a real interest growing for regenerative story for the regenerative principles?

1021
01:05:04.422 --> 01:05:06.604
There is a real interest for the regenerative story.

1022
01:05:06.924 --> 01:05:07.385
That's clear.

1023
01:05:08.846 --> 01:05:10.808
I would say that it's not general.

1024
01:05:11.028 --> 01:05:12.189
I would say that still maybe

1025
01:05:12.990 --> 01:05:13.931
10, 15,

1026
01:05:14.011 --> 01:05:14.191
20%

1027
01:05:14.491 --> 01:05:18.074
of the industries are understanding and willing to go into that.

1028
01:05:18.455 --> 01:05:19.015
But we see

1029
01:05:20.452 --> 01:05:21.273
more and more traction.

1030
01:05:22.153 --> 01:05:33.318
And it's difficult to say between the carbon footprint measure and certification and the RegenAg plus CO2 certification what's more attractive.

1031
01:05:33.338 --> 01:05:37.240
I think that some industries are coming for both,

1032
01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:44.543
other are just coming for the scope three because they are pushed by their shareholders,

1033
01:05:44.603 --> 01:05:45.123
management,

1034
01:05:45.204 --> 01:05:45.564
whatever.

1035
01:05:46.368 --> 01:06:01.258
to calculate and to reduce um i think that what is interesting is that with this carbon accounting is that we are able to make those industry understand that actually the farm

1036
01:06:01.318 --> 01:06:06.902
farmers can reduce their share of the carbon footprint,

1037
01:06:06.942 --> 01:06:08.243
but also go beyond that.

1038
01:06:08.323 --> 01:06:16.269
And when we have a barley that we deliver to Bortemal that is able to reach the malt tree with a carbon footprint,

1039
01:06:16.289 --> 01:06:18.711
which is close to zero,

1040
01:06:19.572 --> 01:06:21.053
this is much more than the 30%

1041
01:06:22.094 --> 01:06:25.456
reduction that an industry like this one is aiming.

1042
01:06:25.936 --> 01:06:27.057
It's massive.

1043
01:06:27.097 --> 01:06:27.217
Yeah,

1044
01:06:27.358 --> 01:06:27.838
it's massive.

1045
01:06:27.838 --> 01:06:30.260
And so this is also an exciting moment.

1046
01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:31.240
where you say,

1047
01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:31.581
actually,

1048
01:06:31.961 --> 01:06:35.843
the farmers are not only contributing their share because we want to reduce by 30%,

1049
01:06:36.583 --> 01:06:37.604
they are going beyond that.

1050
01:06:37.744 --> 01:06:45.369
And so this is what we are trying also to be the leader in the market here in Belgium,

1051
01:06:45.489 --> 01:06:47.330
say not only to reduce,

1052
01:06:47.370 --> 01:06:56.555
but to go beyond this mandatory reduction and trying to also to influence or to inspire the other

1053
01:06:57.996 --> 01:06:59.456
cooperative and industries say,

1054
01:06:59.496 --> 01:06:59.636
look,

1055
01:06:59.957 --> 01:07:04.238
this is really where the farmers are part of the solution for you.

1056
01:07:05.298 --> 01:07:08.019
So it's a huge lever in the food industry,

1057
01:07:08.099 --> 01:07:08.239
right?

1058
01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:13.341
Because a really big chunk of the carbon emissions from the food industry come from the farm.

1059
01:07:13.741 --> 01:07:13.861
Yeah.

1060
01:07:14.281 --> 01:07:14.741
So I hear.

1061
01:07:15.101 --> 01:07:15.221
Yeah.

1062
01:07:15.321 --> 01:07:16.361
Sometimes as much as 80,

1063
01:07:16.401 --> 01:07:17.002
90%

1064
01:07:17.002 --> 01:07:17.222
I heard.

1065
01:07:17.462 --> 01:07:17.862
Exactly.

1066
01:07:18.302 --> 01:07:21.163
And so there's not a whole lot of other options,

1067
01:07:21.283 --> 01:07:24.964
but to produce differently in a way that doesn't.

1068
01:07:25.412 --> 01:07:26.272
emits so much carbon,

1069
01:07:26.292 --> 01:07:31.154
but instead pumps carbon from the air through photosynthesis and stores it in the ground.

1070
01:07:31.735 --> 01:07:34.576
And that's sort of what regenerative agriculture does.

1071
01:07:35.396 --> 01:07:35.596
Yeah,

1072
01:07:36.276 --> 01:07:37.417
there are solutions to today.

1073
01:07:37.417 --> 01:07:46.100
And you go to the offset market and you buy carbon credit to projects outside of your value chain to balance your emissions.

1074
01:07:46.701 --> 01:07:54.584
But what we're trying to explain to those industries is that it's much more clever to try to inset.

1075
01:07:55.384 --> 01:07:58.847
your emission into your own value chain with your own farmers.

1076
01:07:59.388 --> 01:08:01.710
Because on top of ticking the box,

1077
01:08:02.050 --> 01:08:04.212
I've reduced my carbon emission.

1078
01:08:05.293 --> 01:08:07.975
You are making your farms,

1079
01:08:08.296 --> 01:08:09.957
your farmers more resilient,

1080
01:08:10.037 --> 01:08:10.958
your soil richer.

1081
01:08:11.358 --> 01:08:13.460
So this is an additional advantage for the future.

1082
01:08:14.641 --> 01:08:22.288
It's not that you're making the soils of a certain country richer that is not linked.

1083
01:08:22.932 --> 01:08:23.733
to your value chain.

1084
01:08:23.793 --> 01:08:28.015
It's within your value chain that you are making this effort,

1085
01:08:28.095 --> 01:08:30.416
which is strategically important.

1086
01:08:30.917 --> 01:08:34.518
And also the fact that they are reconnecting with the farmers.

1087
01:08:34.579 --> 01:08:38.961
And it seems quite interesting to see how disconnected

1088
01:08:39.341 --> 01:08:44.744
I was at the beginning of the podcast talking about the farmers who doesn't really know where the grain is going,

1089
01:08:45.685 --> 01:08:46.205
to do what,

1090
01:08:46.505 --> 01:08:47.265
in what industry,

1091
01:08:47.325 --> 01:08:47.806
what product.

1092
01:08:48.706 --> 01:08:50.867
But this is the same in the other direction.

1093
01:08:50.907 --> 01:08:51.748
There are many.

1094
01:08:52.208 --> 01:09:01.635
industries because of these different stakeholders and because of the community ization of the market that doesn't really know which farmers are producing for them,

1095
01:09:02.155 --> 01:09:03.977
which is also kind of disappointing.

1096
01:09:04.077 --> 01:09:10.361
So when you put the farmers in the industry together for a barbecue in the barn here and they start discussing,

1097
01:09:10.482 --> 01:09:14.104
it creates also something that you can't put in an Excel sheet,

1098
01:09:14.144 --> 01:09:15.445
which is motivation,

1099
01:09:15.545 --> 01:09:16.186
inspiration,

1100
01:09:16.686 --> 01:09:17.267
reconnection,

1101
01:09:18.548 --> 01:09:21.710
which is an important fuel of this.

1102
01:09:22.286 --> 01:09:23.787
project and change.

1103
01:09:23.867 --> 01:09:24.588
That's amazing.

1104
01:09:24.928 --> 01:09:25.048
Yeah,

1105
01:09:25.048 --> 01:09:29.151
I want to see a lot more of that connection between the different parts of the chain.

1106
01:09:29.271 --> 01:09:29.771
It's true.

1107
01:09:29.791 --> 01:09:29.991
I mean,

1108
01:09:29.991 --> 01:09:31.973
I guess if you're sitting in an office,

1109
01:09:32.133 --> 01:09:32.733
and you're just,

1110
01:09:33.174 --> 01:09:33.434
you know,

1111
01:09:33.594 --> 01:09:35.995
working on marketing for your product on the shelf,

1112
01:09:36.576 --> 01:09:37.276
whatever that is,

1113
01:09:37.817 --> 01:09:42.280
and you have absolutely no connection to the rest of the chain and to the farmer and the work it's doing,

1114
01:09:42.320 --> 01:09:44.701
and the actual product that's coming out of his field,

1115
01:09:45.682 --> 01:09:48.464
it must be it's something is lost there,

1116
01:09:48.684 --> 01:09:48.944
right?

1117
01:09:49.164 --> 01:09:50.886
And the same way that if you're a farmer,

1118
01:09:50.946 --> 01:09:51.286
and you

1119
01:09:51.590 --> 01:09:54.792
work so hard to produce this and then it goes out in the truck and then that's it.

1120
01:09:54.952 --> 01:09:56.774
You have no idea what happens to your product next.

1121
01:09:56.794 --> 01:09:58.535
That's not very motivating either.

1122
01:09:58.595 --> 01:09:59.956
So reconnecting,

1123
01:10:00.216 --> 01:10:01.036
recreating connection,

1124
01:10:01.137 --> 01:10:02.618
this is a big part of your mission.

1125
01:10:03.018 --> 01:10:12.664
I had one discussion after a meeting with this molter and I was with a guy who was selling the molts to the brewers.

1126
01:10:13.165 --> 01:10:21.050
I was with them in a meeting to sell the molts to the brewers and I just explained about regenerative agriculture.

1127
01:10:21.694 --> 01:10:24.576
And the guy was with me selling the malt to the brewer.

1128
01:10:25.878 --> 01:10:33.404
That was apparently the first time actually I was making the pitch in front of him and talking about Raising the Nag and say,

1129
01:10:34.064 --> 01:10:34.264
Yeah,

1130
01:10:34.324 --> 01:10:37.207
this is incredible because actually all what you said.

1131
01:10:37.807 --> 01:10:41.250
So I'm practicing permaculture in my garden during the weekend.

1132
01:10:41.270 --> 01:10:43.852
But this is permaculture on large scale.

1133
01:10:44.533 --> 01:10:44.793
I say,

1134
01:10:44.913 --> 01:10:45.113
yes,

1135
01:10:45.193 --> 01:10:45.494
more or less,

1136
01:10:45.534 --> 01:10:46.554
this is the same principle,

1137
01:10:46.554 --> 01:10:47.155
the same idea.

1138
01:10:47.155 --> 01:10:48.836
But it is crazy.

1139
01:10:49.177 --> 01:10:50.738
So now I can say that I'm doing

1140
01:10:50.958 --> 01:10:53.179
permaculture in my work.

1141
01:10:55.480 --> 01:11:02.504
I was ashamed to talk about what I'm doing in my garden to my colleagues because I thought it was a bit crazy or too ecologist,

1142
01:11:02.544 --> 01:11:02.865
whatever.

1143
01:11:03.265 --> 01:11:07.227
Now that I realize that I'm doing indirectly,

1144
01:11:07.307 --> 01:11:09.048
but with you at my work,

1145
01:11:09.608 --> 01:11:09.748
what

1146
01:11:10.809 --> 01:11:14.111
I love to do in my garden in secret during the weekend,

1147
01:11:14.151 --> 01:11:16.252
it gives me another perspective for my work,

1148
01:11:16.712 --> 01:11:17.853
like as a commercial.

1149
01:11:18.333 --> 01:11:19.754
So this kind of thing,

1150
01:11:20.718 --> 01:11:20.978
For me,

1151
01:11:21.098 --> 01:11:22.699
it's also a very important,

1152
01:11:22.739 --> 01:11:27.701
crucial element of this change and this regenerative value chain.

1153
01:11:27.701 --> 01:11:29.062
That's amazing.

1154
01:11:31.043 --> 01:11:39.367
If you had a magic wand and you could magically change one policy or part of the subsidy system,

1155
01:11:40.647 --> 01:11:41.908
what would you choose to change?

1156
01:11:43.929 --> 01:11:44.409
I think that,

1157
01:11:45.389 --> 01:11:45.529
as

1158
01:11:46.110 --> 01:11:46.970
I said before,

1159
01:11:47.350 --> 01:12:04.738
there is not enough understanding from the agro industry and from the farmers and from the consumer of this contribution of the the agricultural product in the final product in terms of cost so i think that having some

1160
01:12:04.758 --> 01:12:15.222
money to transparently make the the different stakeholders aware of the fact that you know

1161
01:12:15.302 --> 01:12:32.392
it shouldn't cost that much to pay the farmer properly to be rewarded to change and to transition into region ag i i would i would try to use some money to to make that clear and again this is not the different people

1162
01:12:32.512 --> 01:12:40.537
against them the farmers against the industry talking with the industry more and more i understand that they they don't realize that

1163
01:12:42.834 --> 01:12:56.860
Being able to give to the farmer a little bit more to make his change and this little bit more is not systematically changing the game for the consumer in terms of value of the product is an important one.

1164
01:12:56.880 --> 01:12:59.001
So how to translate that into subsidy?

1165
01:12:59.181 --> 01:12:59.621
I don't know,

1166
01:12:59.901 --> 01:13:06.824
but I think that there is some studies and some money to be spent to make this transparency more clear.

1167
01:13:07.644 --> 01:13:10.685
I was thinking about having some campaign like...

1168
01:13:13.347 --> 01:13:19.272
I think it was already developed in some countries like one cent for the farmer or one,

1169
01:13:19.993 --> 01:13:35.225
a few one euro more for the farmer in terms of communication on the final product would be some initiative that would definitely help the whole value chain to

1170
01:13:35.265 --> 01:13:38.949
reward properly the farmer if there is a change for the change,

1171
01:13:39.529 --> 01:13:40.190
not for nothing.

1172
01:13:40.270 --> 01:13:40.650
Thank you.

1173
01:13:41.410 --> 01:13:54.560
uh that would be good the second thing i would do is probably um to reward the farmer and and to give the farmer the subsidies based on outcomes more than just on

1174
01:13:55.672 --> 01:14:02.594
practices or some recommendations or ask made by the EU.

1175
01:14:03.394 --> 01:14:11.136
I would rather pay them based on what's really achieved and give the farmer the freedom to do whatever they want.

1176
01:14:12.237 --> 01:14:12.937
So if you,

1177
01:14:13.377 --> 01:14:13.797
for example,

1178
01:14:13.797 --> 01:14:18.718
if you want to avoid floods or losing soil from your fields,

1179
01:14:19.078 --> 01:14:24.740
this is something that we measure and this is something that we pay if it happened and you do whatever you want.

1180
01:14:26.373 --> 01:14:30.937
because the farmer is the best one to judge what kind of cover crop,

1181
01:14:31.217 --> 01:14:32.018
what kind of tillage,

1182
01:14:32.058 --> 01:14:39.644
what kind of whatever direction of seeding he should do to avoid to lose soil in this example.

1183
01:14:39.644 --> 01:14:43.528
So that would be another element of change.

1184
01:14:44.609 --> 01:14:46.150
I'm not coming with a specific...

1185
01:14:46.610 --> 01:14:46.730
Yeah,

1186
01:14:46.871 --> 01:14:52.816
that's something I hear a lot at the moment is this concept of outcome-based subsidy system.

1187
01:14:53.524 --> 01:14:55.346
Where we start with the outcomes.

1188
01:14:55.466 --> 01:14:56.947
What do we want from agriculture?

1189
01:14:57.147 --> 01:14:57.688
Obviously,

1190
01:14:57.688 --> 01:14:58.989
we want it to produce food,

1191
01:14:59.129 --> 01:15:00.990
but we also want it to be healthy food.

1192
01:15:01.010 --> 01:15:02.972
We want ecosystem to be healthy.

1193
01:15:03.032 --> 01:15:04.233
We want more biodiversity.

1194
01:15:04.293 --> 01:15:05.374
We want healthier soils.

1195
01:15:05.874 --> 01:15:07.256
We want all of these beautiful things.

1196
01:15:07.256 --> 01:15:10.198
We want sequestered carbon from the atmosphere into the soil.

1197
01:15:11.819 --> 01:15:17.204
So let's kind of agree on what we want farmers to achieve and let them achieve.

1198
01:15:18.496 --> 01:15:34.348
those results whichever way they decide to do that and if they do achieve it then reward them for for the results that's the key idea right yeah yeah and then the the the last point is that the i would also look at um how to uh enable

1199
01:15:34.348 --> 01:15:45.676
the smaller farm to survive or the smaller regenerative farms because uh i i believe that um in this small farm there is also

1200
01:15:46.076 --> 01:15:49.398
a certain amount of discovery and research and development.

1201
01:15:49.398 --> 01:16:03.988
So I think that the subsidies should look at that probably by adjusting the level of payments on the outcomes based on the size to be sure that the small,

1202
01:16:04.168 --> 01:16:09.252
innovative regional farm could continue to operate.

1203
01:16:10.413 --> 01:16:12.154
What's one story,

1204
01:16:12.334 --> 01:16:15.056
one moment that made you realize that's what you were doing?

1205
01:16:15.944 --> 01:16:17.746
with Cultivare was really making a difference?

1206
01:16:18.968 --> 01:16:19.428
I think that

1207
01:16:22.752 --> 01:16:28.959
I was referring to a good barbecue with different members of this value chain.

1208
01:16:29.960 --> 01:16:34.766
I think that we had one or two very good moments where we had the farmers,

1209
01:16:35.086 --> 01:16:36.408
the industries,

1210
01:16:36.792 --> 01:16:37.532
The agronomists,

1211
01:16:38.553 --> 01:16:41.234
the people from the cooperative all together in the barn,

1212
01:16:41.934 --> 01:16:42.714
having beers,

1213
01:16:43.575 --> 01:16:44.295
having good food,

1214
01:16:45.055 --> 01:16:46.816
sharing experiences,

1215
01:16:47.496 --> 01:16:49.357
sharing also data,

1216
01:16:49.717 --> 01:16:50.298
prices,

1217
01:16:51.238 --> 01:16:51.738
margins,

1218
01:16:53.239 --> 01:16:54.980
sharing ideas about communication,

1219
01:16:55.640 --> 01:16:59.081
sharing their challenges in the industry,

1220
01:16:59.301 --> 01:17:01.222
sharing the challenges in the fields.

1221
01:17:02.022 --> 01:17:05.684
This exchange and this moment were a moment where

1222
01:17:06.024 --> 01:17:11.508
I really felt that we were participating at our scale,

1223
01:17:11.628 --> 01:17:12.669
we're very small,

1224
01:17:13.429 --> 01:17:14.770
to a change,

1225
01:17:16.031 --> 01:17:17.152
rebuilding connections,

1226
01:17:17.772 --> 01:17:19.253
rebuilding motivations,

1227
01:17:20.154 --> 01:17:32.522
bringing impact with this small community of farmers and having those also multinational agro-industries in the room because we're working with big one.

1228
01:17:33.182 --> 01:17:35.184
Portmald is one of the biggest.

1229
01:17:35.624 --> 01:17:36.604
Malta in the world,

1230
01:17:37.144 --> 01:17:42.766
having the CEO of this company discussing and joking with us,

1231
01:17:43.506 --> 01:17:49.928
brainstorming with us was a moment where I realized that we were actually in the right direction.

1232
01:17:50.508 --> 01:17:50.628
Yeah.

1233
01:17:50.868 --> 01:17:51.148
Nice.

1234
01:17:52.049 --> 01:17:52.569
Fantastic.

1235
01:17:53.509 --> 01:17:54.769
Thank you so much for your time.

1236
01:17:54.809 --> 01:17:55.850
It's a great conversation.

1237
01:17:56.910 --> 01:17:57.210
Take care.

1238
01:17:57.810 --> 01:17:58.110
Thank you.

1239
01:17:58.310 --> 01:17:58.550
Bye.