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Welcome back to the Deep Seed Podcast.

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We've all heard about forever chemicals on the news lately.

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They are really strong chemicals that are super useful for many objects and products that we use on a daily basis,

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like non-stick frying pans,

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food packaging,

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water repellent clothings,

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cosmetics and cleaning products,

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just to name a few.

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The problem is that they are really

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really strong and almost impossible to destroy and they have a tendency to leach out and accumulate in every part of our environment like in the soils,

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in the rivers and seas,

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in the food we eat and even inside of our own bodies.

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And because our bodies are not capable of getting rid of them they just stay there and accumulate forever.

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So yeah that's a huge issue and something that really deserves our attention and that requires solving.

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And there's kind of two ways to go about it.

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One is to stop adding more of these harmful chemicals into our environments.

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And the other is to clean up the mess that we already made and clean up those chemicals from the soils,

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from the sea and so on.

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And this leads us to introducing my guest today,

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Elena Doms.

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She co-founded the company Earth Plus.

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And what they're doing is

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using nature-based solutions to clean up soils and to regenerate degraded land.

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And one of the key ways they're doing that is by growing hemp.

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And hemp is an amazing crop.

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It has so many benefits for soil health,

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for sequestering carbon,

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and it can also be used to make a whole range of really cool biobased materials.

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This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital.

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I'm your host,

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Raphael,

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and this is the Deep Seed Podcast.

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Hi,

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Elena.

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Hi,

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Raphael.

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Thanks a lot for inviting me into your home and for taking some of your precious time to have this conversation with me.

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I'm excited.

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Thank you for coming.

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For a little bit of context,

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for people listening,

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we're in Belgium,

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in Flanders,

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and more specifically in Bortmerbeek.

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Is that right?

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Yes.

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So it's a town that's roughly 25-30 minutes outside of Brussels.

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But you haven't always lived here,

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right?

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The first thing that jumps to your eyes when you look at your story is that you grew up in the Arctic?

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Yes.

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Well,

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that's something that you don't hear every day.

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And for a lot of people,

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I think,

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me included,

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I just pictured the Arctic as just a sheet of ice with maybe a few polar bears.

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I didn't even know people were living there.

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So I'd be really curious if you could tell us a little bit more about that place and the place you grew up in and what it was like.

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For sure.

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So first of all,

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there are a lot of white ice sheets and polar bears in the Arctic,

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so you're correct there.

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But if you're trying to get a preview,

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if you've seen James Bond's GoldenEye movie,

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at the beginning of the movie,

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there is this chemical weapons facility set in the high mountains full of snow.

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And in that episode,

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James Bond defeats everyone,

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obviously.

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And then he runs out and tries to flee,

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but the plane falls over a cliff.

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So he jumps in the plane and steers it away as a victor.

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And they literally say that it's my home city.

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To tell you the truth,

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that's Switzerland,

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not the Arctic.

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But my home city is very flat,

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a lot more cheerful.

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And there are no mountains there,

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but there is indeed a lot of ice.

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It's located on the river,

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which is quite wide,

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two and a half kilometers wide.

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And it splits the city into parts,

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the main city part and small villages outside.

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How it was like to grow up there?

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Well,

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I had a normal childhood in the sense that I had a very loving family,

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my mom and my dad.

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And,

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you know,

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that's just a normal family time that we had.

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But there were some seasonal variations,

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like,

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for example,

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the polar night and the polar day.

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And in the winter,

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before going to the kindergarten or to school,

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my mom would dress me up as a little cabbage.

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You know,

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layers and layers of clothes.

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We would go downstairs and before leaving the apartment block,

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my dad would rub my nose and my cheeks really strong so that they wouldn't get frozen.

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And he would cover me with a scarf just so that my eyes were visible.

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We would step outside,

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would be minus 30,

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minus 35.

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Really dark,

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but the light would reflect off the snow.

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And he would carry me in his arms all the way to the kindergarten,

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making jokes and telling me stories and keeping me warm.

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And in summers it would be the opposite,

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so complete light all the time,

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even in the middle of the night.

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And we spent our summers in the summer house,

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so about 20 kilometers from the city,

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and went to the boreal forest.

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My dad taught me how to walk on swamps.

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We gathered mushrooms and berries,

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grew some vegetables in the garden,

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which was very risky because you never know what you're going to get with the Arctic weather.

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Yeah,

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and that's what my childhood was like.

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It sounds very lovely.

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And it's so strange to imagine living in a place where part of the year you get full darkness 24 hours a day.

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And then on the opposite end of the year,

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you get full light

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24 hours.

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That sounds so strange.

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Isn't it hard to even fall asleep and have a normal sort of rhythm?

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You know,

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we were used to it back then.

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So it's...

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Yes,

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in winter,

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it was a little bit dark,

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I would say.

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But the lights would reflect from the snow and it would be okay.

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And we were used to summers as well.

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I'm not used to that anymore.

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So now when I go home,

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I can't sleep at night.

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And once we went with my husband about 10 years ago in summers and in winters,

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and he couldn't sleep either.

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But he really did love the winter with,

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you know,

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ice everywhere.

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Also ice over that river.

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So the difference of living in the Arctic as well is that a lot of infrastructure is also based on ice.

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So for example to cross the river you don't have a bridge but you literally have a road that stretches on ice and you have lights and you have cars driving on it and in the middle where ships pass the ice is broken every day and there you have like wooden boards that literally lay on water to cross from one side to another.

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So that's kind of the the difference and and yeah

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I was used to it back then now of course it's a little bit different.

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Okay I see yeah and what brought you to the Arctic?

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in the first place?

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Were your parents from there or what's the story there?

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My dad is from the Arctic.

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He also used to have this half transparent eyes and we were always joking with my mom that maybe he's from a special nationality of people that grew up over there in the North with transparent eyes.

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My mom herself is from another part of the country,

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but after university,

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she moved to the Arctic to work there and they...

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met with my dad at the hospital and they fell in love and she stayed and I was born there.

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Beautiful story.

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And how old were you when you left the Arctic and came to the continent?

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Well,

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I left the Arctic for the first time when I was 15 because I went for a year abroad in the US and then I came back and then I left at 18.

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I first started in St.

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Petersburg and then I moved to Belgium.

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So,

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How did you go from growing up there in the Arctic to now living in Belgium and being a key figure in the regenerative space?

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Where do I start?

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I moved away from the Arctic because I went to study in St.

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Petersburg first and to find a good job and,

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you know,

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somewhere you can grow.

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That was kind of the road that I was looking forward to studying a good big university to move in a bigger city.

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And in St.

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Petersburg,

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I was also part of a student organization called ISEC,

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which is a youth organization that focuses a lot on social impact.

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And at some point,

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I applied for ISEC in Belgium.

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I got a position here in the National Committee,

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and that's how I moved to Belgium,

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actually.

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I worked here also as a country manager of ISIC in Belgium,

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and then

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Mastercard was looking for a Russian speaker to work with clients all across Armenia,

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Belarus,

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Ukraine,

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the Stans,

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and that's how I stayed in Belgium actually.

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To see the pathway of how I ended up where I am,

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I think there were some signals already back then,

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maybe that I didn't notice yet.

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So when I was thinking of

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what to write my bachelor degree about in university,

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I was trying to find what makes me interested,

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what kind of makes my heart beat.

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And I came across some articles about industrial agriculture,

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about super weeds,

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and about that really impacting our soils and our health,

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and that was incorporated in my degree.

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And I thought,

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huh,

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that's really interesting,

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that's something that I want to work on in the future.

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And then...

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Even though I was working at Mastercard and I really loved it,

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at the back of my head,

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I always knew I wanted to do something more sustainability related.

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Then I had two kids together with my husband and that really put me in a space where,

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okay,

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the time is now.

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I have to take care of my children.

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I did a degree on energy and climate in the University of Antwerp.

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I realized how urgent the action is and what we need to do.

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And that's when I arrived into space.

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I have to really focus 100% on sustainability and impact.

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And when I was working back at Mastercard,

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I met an entrepreneur called Frederik Verstrate.

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And he was one of the first people in the world who ran pilots to clean forever chemicals from soils with plants and to create a business model to regenerate even more soils.

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And I fell in love with that story so much that deep inside of me,

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I knew there is nothing else I want to do.

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I want to focus on soil restoration.

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and health as an outcome,

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our health and climate impact.

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And yeah,

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that's how

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I ended up where I am today.

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Okay,

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so from realizing you wanted to have a positive impact,

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but to actually starting or co-founding your own company,

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EarthPlus,

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how did that happen?

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So let me explain a little bit the story.

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I think back in 2021,

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there was this big scandal in Belgium around forever chemicals and PFAS.

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And the Belgian government went around and they measured people's blood,

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those living around the factor of 3M,

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and the concentrations were 10 to 100 times above the recommended limit.

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So the Belgian government obliged 3M to look for solutions,

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but the only solution was to excavate the ground and put it somewhere else.

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And yet,

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if you dive into the problem of pollution over there around the whole Belgium and even in Europe,

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you will see that it's extremely contaminated.

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About a third of a continent is a giant red dot.

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Flanders is one of the most polluted regions in Belgium,

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so you can't just excavate whole cities.

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And that's when Frederick thought,

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maybe I can clean it up with the power of plants.

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And they conducted a pilot together with Sofites in 2022.

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Sofites is a postdoc at the University of Hasselt,

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focusing on phyto-remediation.

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And they proved the impossible.

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They proved that it worked,

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and I will explain a little bit later how that came to be.

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And...

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00:11:47.414 --> 00:11:49.495
We were talking and I remembered Boyan Slade,

260
00:11:49.495 --> 00:11:50.896
the founder of the Ocean Cleanup,

261
00:11:51.316 --> 00:11:52.597
speaking on stage in Amsterdam.

262
00:11:53.017 --> 00:11:54.378
And I came to Frederik and I said,

263
00:11:55.098 --> 00:11:55.239
look,

264
00:11:55.259 --> 00:11:55.579
Frederik,

265
00:11:55.619 --> 00:11:58.580
if we can help clean one of the most contaminated places in the world,

266
00:11:58.580 --> 00:11:59.801
we have to help clean the world.

267
00:11:59.821 --> 00:12:01.562
We have to create the next Ocean Cleanup,

268
00:12:01.582 --> 00:12:02.303
but for soils.

269
00:12:03.243 --> 00:12:04.644
And back then,

270
00:12:05.564 --> 00:12:06.405
he found a partner,

271
00:12:06.505 --> 00:12:07.185
Philippe Cordel,

272
00:12:07.205 --> 00:12:08.386
to start C-Biotech,

273
00:12:08.406 --> 00:12:12.348
which is focusing on bio-based construction materials,

274
00:12:12.388 --> 00:12:13.869
also on soil restoration.

275
00:12:15.650 --> 00:12:23.934
we co-created EarthPlus together as a technology platform to trace all the physical projects from fields to final products,

276
00:12:24.734 --> 00:12:28.335
to generate carbon credits and raise investments into nature restoration,

277
00:12:28.415 --> 00:12:32.837
but also to hyperscale that model around the world through local partnerships.

278
00:12:34.278 --> 00:12:34.638
So yes,

279
00:12:34.658 --> 00:12:36.259
we co-created it together.

280
00:12:36.839 --> 00:12:37.079
Okay,

281
00:12:37.299 --> 00:12:37.619
I see.

282
00:12:37.719 --> 00:12:37.859
Yeah.

283
00:12:39.300 --> 00:12:41.621
We're talking about forever chemicals here or

284
00:12:42.001 --> 00:12:42.421
PFAS.

285
00:12:43.281 --> 00:12:44.562
And I feel like

286
00:12:44.938 --> 00:13:00.324
almost everyone has heard about these forever chemicals on the news because there's been all of these scandals especially in belgium recently but i'm sure it happened also in in other places around the world and i feel like a lot of people me included don't

287
00:13:00.524 --> 00:13:13.490
really know what they are these forever chemicals so maybe you could start by giving us a little crash course about what pfas forever chemicals are yes of course so but i think

288
00:13:13.986 --> 00:13:21.028
Belgians and people in Flanders are probably the people who have heard almost the most about Forever Chemicals because it was all over the news indeed.

289
00:13:21.988 --> 00:13:24.109
But basically this is a group of chemicals,

290
00:13:24.189 --> 00:13:25.129
there are thousands of them,

291
00:13:25.189 --> 00:13:27.330
that make things non-stick and water resistant.

292
00:13:28.010 --> 00:13:35.472
So they were invented for example for non-stick frying pans but now they're in everyday items all around us.

293
00:13:35.652 --> 00:13:37.273
So they can be in clothes,

294
00:13:37.853 --> 00:13:39.153
in waterproof winter jackets,

295
00:13:39.173 --> 00:13:40.633
they can be in our pizza boxes,

296
00:13:40.694 --> 00:13:41.934
they can be in frying pans.

297
00:13:42.474 --> 00:13:43.435
They're in laptops,

298
00:13:43.875 --> 00:13:44.796
in our phones,

299
00:13:44.916 --> 00:13:45.457
in paint,

300
00:13:45.477 --> 00:13:46.197
in furniture.

301
00:13:48.099 --> 00:13:50.601
The thing is that because of their useful properties,

302
00:13:50.681 --> 00:13:52.202
they do not decompose in nature.

303
00:13:52.202 --> 00:13:54.024
And that's why scientists call them forever,

304
00:13:54.464 --> 00:13:57.707
because they fear that those chemicals will stay there for millennia.

305
00:13:58.167 --> 00:13:58.888
They're really strong.

306
00:13:59.188 --> 00:14:02.150
New temperatures above 1,400 degrees to break them down.

307
00:14:04.552 --> 00:14:08.015
The problem with that is that they do not decompose and they accumulate.

308
00:14:08.296 --> 00:14:10.878
Accumulate in nature and our bodies as well.

309
00:14:11.966 --> 00:14:13.848
And that causes all kinds of diseases.

310
00:14:13.888 --> 00:14:14.508
So currently,

311
00:14:15.009 --> 00:14:19.352
global societal costs are estimated to be 17.5 trillion US dollars a year.

312
00:14:20.233 --> 00:14:22.194
That's just healthcare and cleanups.

313
00:14:24.116 --> 00:14:26.058
But you also have impact on wildlife.

314
00:14:26.078 --> 00:14:28.640
You also have all kinds of other impacts,

315
00:14:28.760 --> 00:14:29.721
like on real estate,

316
00:14:29.721 --> 00:14:30.381
for example.

317
00:14:31.502 --> 00:14:36.666
And there was also another research saying that if you continue producing them at the same speed as we do now,

318
00:14:37.087 --> 00:14:40.730
it will take more than global GDP to clean them up with existing technologies.

319
00:14:41.334 --> 00:14:42.114
So it's really,

320
00:14:42.195 --> 00:14:45.136
really a big issue and we have to tackle it on many levels.

321
00:14:45.917 --> 00:14:48.718
We have to close the tap and find safer alternatives.

322
00:14:48.718 --> 00:14:49.118
And actually,

323
00:14:49.138 --> 00:14:50.679
in 92% of the cases,

324
00:14:50.939 --> 00:14:52.420
you have safer alternatives.

325
00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:57.923
And then we have to clean them up because maybe in everyday products,

326
00:14:58.023 --> 00:15:00.404
the concentration of PFAS is not that high.

327
00:15:00.925 --> 00:15:03.666
So it wouldn't be that dangerous to eat a pizza once,

328
00:15:03.686 --> 00:15:04.026
you know.

329
00:15:05.943 --> 00:15:07.444
But the thing is that they accumulate.

330
00:15:07.724 --> 00:15:13.646
So we have to find solutions of how to clean them because they spread in our air,

331
00:15:13.766 --> 00:15:15.127
they spread in our soils,

332
00:15:15.187 --> 00:15:16.348
they are in our water,

333
00:15:16.628 --> 00:15:17.848
in the groundwater as well,

334
00:15:17.868 --> 00:15:19.009
they are in our oceans.

335
00:15:19.529 --> 00:15:23.030
So they're everywhere and we need to find a way to clean them up,

336
00:15:23.090 --> 00:15:25.331
collect them and destroy them,

337
00:15:25.511 --> 00:15:26.852
which is not an easy task.

338
00:15:27.592 --> 00:15:27.852
Okay,

339
00:15:28.073 --> 00:15:28.313
wow.

340
00:15:29.133 --> 00:15:32.134
I have so many questions already about everything you just said.

341
00:15:33.095 --> 00:15:33.615
First of all,

342
00:15:34.263 --> 00:15:35.284
It's pretty enraging,

343
00:15:35.364 --> 00:15:35.584
right,

344
00:15:35.705 --> 00:15:41.710
that we've allowed for these really harmful chemicals to spread everywhere in our ecosystems,

345
00:15:41.710 --> 00:15:42.290
in our food,

346
00:15:42.551 --> 00:15:43.271
in our bodies.

347
00:15:44.192 --> 00:15:44.452
And

348
00:15:45.233 --> 00:15:46.814
I guess my first question is,

349
00:15:47.415 --> 00:15:53.840
if we know and it's been scientifically proven that these chemicals are so bad for our health,

350
00:15:54.101 --> 00:15:54.861
for the environment,

351
00:15:56.162 --> 00:15:57.764
how come they're still allowed?

352
00:15:57.844 --> 00:15:59.345
How come it's still legal to use them?

353
00:16:01.851 --> 00:16:01.991
Well,

354
00:16:02.051 --> 00:16:05.812
scientists are still calculating the healthcare outcomes.

355
00:16:05.832 --> 00:16:07.213
There's been quite some research,

356
00:16:08.493 --> 00:16:08.833
actually,

357
00:16:08.873 --> 00:16:09.933
that's spread out for years,

358
00:16:10.013 --> 00:16:12.014
but it was kind of under the ground.

359
00:16:13.554 --> 00:16:15.395
And the same question of how it's illegal,

360
00:16:15.415 --> 00:16:18.656
we can ask to a lot of aspects of our life all around us.

361
00:16:19.296 --> 00:16:21.117
It's for the fact that maybe,

362
00:16:21.117 --> 00:16:21.877
you know,

363
00:16:21.877 --> 00:16:29.459
our economy is directed in a way that it's more to create wealth and money rather than to look into all the...

364
00:16:30.203 --> 00:16:31.084
externalities,

365
00:16:31.324 --> 00:16:31.604
right?

366
00:16:32.604 --> 00:16:36.006
We used to think of isolated problems and isolated solutions.

367
00:16:36.046 --> 00:16:39.188
So we need a product that will make things non-stick and water resistant,

368
00:16:39.228 --> 00:16:39.448
fine,

369
00:16:39.468 --> 00:16:40.409
we'll create a chemical.

370
00:16:40.929 --> 00:16:44.511
But then we didn't think what would be the outcomes of that chemical in the environment.

371
00:16:45.112 --> 00:16:48.774
It's faster to put a chemical in the market than to take it out of the market.

372
00:16:50.915 --> 00:16:53.036
And that's maybe part of the problem.

373
00:16:53.216 --> 00:16:54.877
We need to start thinking differently.

374
00:16:54.917 --> 00:16:57.679
We need to start thinking like nature in a complex way.

375
00:16:58.119 --> 00:16:59.020
where whatever we do,

376
00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:01.061
we see what are the outcomes.

377
00:17:02.222 --> 00:17:02.962
And fine,

378
00:17:03.122 --> 00:17:04.103
we made a mistake,

379
00:17:04.343 --> 00:17:05.964
we had a useful product,

380
00:17:06.024 --> 00:17:21.194
but now is really the time to start fixing it on every front for the regulators to put regulations in place for the companies that are producing or using them to switch to safer alternatives and for the new industry to

381
00:17:21.254 --> 00:17:22.674
create solutions to clean it up.

382
00:17:23.595 --> 00:17:25.356
It's still an industry in its infancy,

383
00:17:25.737 --> 00:17:28.158
and there are some better solutions for the water cleanup.

384
00:17:28.719 --> 00:17:29.639
For the soil cleanup,

385
00:17:29.679 --> 00:17:30.400
there is not much,

386
00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:31.120
unfortunately,

387
00:17:31.180 --> 00:17:33.802
and that's where we're making very big investments.

388
00:17:34.823 --> 00:17:38.866
But there's a whole lot of work that we need to do,

389
00:17:39.166 --> 00:17:39.366
and

390
00:17:39.986 --> 00:17:41.667
I understand that we can focus on the part,

391
00:17:41.747 --> 00:17:42.728
how is that still legal?

392
00:17:42.888 --> 00:17:43.409
I don't know.

393
00:17:43.909 --> 00:17:47.571
There are companies and organizations like ChemSec,

394
00:17:47.591 --> 00:17:48.172
for example,

395
00:17:48.212 --> 00:17:52.215
that is really into working with the regulators to...

396
00:17:53.231 --> 00:17:54.612
to ban the dangerous ones,

397
00:17:54.632 --> 00:17:57.452
but also working with businesses to switch to safer alternatives.

398
00:17:58.193 --> 00:18:00.934
What we are about is a positive story of action.

399
00:18:01.254 --> 00:18:03.514
We screwed up as a society.

400
00:18:03.674 --> 00:18:05.415
Now let's find ways how to fix that.

401
00:18:05.455 --> 00:18:08.936
And let's work together through radical collaborations to find solutions for that.

402
00:18:09.476 --> 00:18:09.656
Yeah,

403
00:18:09.696 --> 00:18:10.937
I think I understand.

404
00:18:11.157 --> 00:18:13.277
So there's two key aspects to this.

405
00:18:13.497 --> 00:18:15.438
One is turning off the tap,

406
00:18:15.698 --> 00:18:18.499
trying to avoid continuing to add more.

407
00:18:18.883 --> 00:18:20.644
harmful chemicals into the environment.

408
00:18:21.064 --> 00:18:26.466
And the other aspect is cleaning up the chemicals that are already present in the ecosystems.

409
00:18:26.706 --> 00:18:30.388
And that's the part that you're focusing on mainly with EarthPlus.

410
00:18:30.428 --> 00:18:31.088
Is that correct?

411
00:18:31.948 --> 00:18:32.208
Yes.

412
00:18:32.709 --> 00:18:33.009
I mean,

413
00:18:33.069 --> 00:18:34.850
look at it as the ocean cleanup,

414
00:18:34.950 --> 00:18:35.210
right?

415
00:18:35.330 --> 00:18:39.932
You need to find safer alternatives and better alternatives to plastics in the circular systems.

416
00:18:40.552 --> 00:18:41.612
And at the same time,

417
00:18:41.632 --> 00:18:43.313
you need to stop the flood of the plastic.

418
00:18:43.453 --> 00:18:45.054
So it's the same here.

419
00:18:45.194 --> 00:18:48.055
Organizations like ChemSec are focusing on closing the tap.

420
00:18:48.175 --> 00:19:07.826
which is extremely important priority number one and we are focusing on cleaning up what's already polluted so these chemicals don't end up in our food and in our bodies okay just to stay on the closing the tap part of the equation for just a second yeah are there any interesting developments in policy

421
00:19:07.866 --> 00:19:16.971
making on the eu level or maybe on the national level when it comes to restricting these forever chemicals from being used

422
00:19:18.176 --> 00:19:18.636
There is.

423
00:19:18.896 --> 00:19:23.780
So there is a proposal on the EU level to ban the most dangerous chemicals.

424
00:19:24.461 --> 00:19:25.422
The question is,

425
00:19:26.102 --> 00:19:28.584
what's that going to end up like?

426
00:19:29.385 --> 00:19:35.070
Are they really going to forbid the majority of the dangerous ones or are they only going to focus on a small percentage?

427
00:19:35.450 --> 00:19:37.992
And there are a lot of different forces at play here,

428
00:19:38.453 --> 00:19:42.976
a lot of different lobby groups as well that are lobbying for different kinds of decisions.

429
00:19:43.717 --> 00:19:46.119
And we have to see where the regulation ends up.

430
00:19:46.139 --> 00:19:50.561
But the European Commission even posted about forever chemicals in that proposal recently.

431
00:19:51.362 --> 00:19:51.982
And I really,

432
00:19:52.042 --> 00:19:58.266
really do hope that they are not going to water it down and that they are going to put a stand and they are going to say,

433
00:19:58.326 --> 00:19:58.446
no,

434
00:19:58.566 --> 00:19:59.646
we have to invest in

435
00:20:00.467 --> 00:20:01.387
R&D and innovation,

436
00:20:01.507 --> 00:20:02.408
safe alternatives,

437
00:20:02.628 --> 00:20:05.970
switch into better ways to make products.

438
00:20:06.930 --> 00:20:07.110
Okay,

439
00:20:07.130 --> 00:20:07.490
I see.

440
00:20:07.490 --> 00:20:07.610
Yeah.

441
00:20:08.011 --> 00:20:11.332
We need people to be more aware also of this problematic,

442
00:20:11.853 --> 00:20:17.576
because usually when the public eye is really looking at something that puts more pressure on regulations to go that way,

443
00:20:17.676 --> 00:20:20.337
if they can just operate in the darkness without anyone knowing,

444
00:20:20.798 --> 00:20:22.979
then usually things don't really move forward.

445
00:20:23.659 --> 00:20:26.521
So I hope this conversation can contribute to that.

446
00:20:28.242 --> 00:20:28.702
For sure,

447
00:20:28.742 --> 00:20:30.343
because these chemicals are also invisible.

448
00:20:30.443 --> 00:20:33.184
So how do we know if soil is contaminated?

449
00:20:33.224 --> 00:20:35.265
How do we know if these chemicals are in our food,

450
00:20:35.285 --> 00:20:35.906
for example?

451
00:20:36.466 --> 00:20:40.828
we concede unless there is certain research and visualize and we make public awareness.

452
00:20:41.229 --> 00:20:42.129
And I think that's why

453
00:20:42.729 --> 00:20:45.051
Belgium is one of the epicenters,

454
00:20:45.271 --> 00:20:49.293
because there was this government scandal and because people start to know about it.

455
00:20:49.553 --> 00:20:54.096
And also the US is also coming up on forever chemicals in the agenda.

456
00:20:54.196 --> 00:20:56.837
There is this dark waters documentary that was filmed.

457
00:20:58.558 --> 00:21:03.120
There is a lot of action going on in the US as well and to dive deeper into that and see what to do with it.

458
00:21:03.541 --> 00:21:04.021
But indeed,

459
00:21:04.141 --> 00:21:05.782
the more public knows about it...

460
00:21:06.142 --> 00:21:22.092
this is happening and they can also see alternatives and switch maybe to safer products the better because then there would be stimulus for governments and for companies to take action faster okay so moving on from closing the tap to

461
00:21:22.432 --> 00:21:31.738
cleaning up the mess cleaning up the pollution what are the interesting innovations and solutions that you've explored in in this area you

462
00:21:33.030 --> 00:21:36.372
So I'll start with the first pilot that Frederik and Sophie conducted,

463
00:21:36.392 --> 00:21:40.275
and then I'll share a bit more about what's the current status now of the research.

464
00:21:41.276 --> 00:21:42.497
So in that first pilot,

465
00:21:42.617 --> 00:21:46.880
they went for a crop called industrial hemp because it was used to clean Fukushima and Chernobyl,

466
00:21:46.900 --> 00:21:49.782
and it's really known for its phytoremediation properties.

467
00:21:50.142 --> 00:21:51.203
Phytoremediation is,

468
00:21:52.443 --> 00:21:52.584
yeah,

469
00:21:52.664 --> 00:21:54.485
when you remediate soil,

470
00:21:54.545 --> 00:21:56.746
when you clean it up with the power of plants.

471
00:21:57.907 --> 00:22:01.750
So they planted industrial hemp on a farming land right across of 3M.

472
00:22:02.010 --> 00:22:12.955
The fact that I say farming land should ring a bell for you because that pollution ends up in our food because of soil contamination and also because forever chemicals are in pesticides.

473
00:22:12.975 --> 00:22:15.176
So we also literally spray them on our food.

474
00:22:15.716 --> 00:22:16.776
And if someone is interested,

475
00:22:16.796 --> 00:22:26.520
they can dive into research of pesticide action network in Europe or in the UK where they're really testing different fruits and vegetables for the remnants of the PFAS pesticides.

476
00:22:27.501 --> 00:22:28.821
So they went on that farming land,

477
00:22:28.841 --> 00:22:30.042
they planted industrial hemp.

478
00:22:30.886 --> 00:22:35.491
And what they noticed is that hemp acted like huge pumps.

479
00:22:35.691 --> 00:22:39.035
So any plant would pick up forever chemicals from soils,

480
00:22:39.095 --> 00:22:41.097
but in the smaller concentrations.

481
00:22:41.457 --> 00:22:45.401
And because hemp grows incredibly fast to four meters in just four months,

482
00:22:46.222 --> 00:22:47.423
it acts like a huge pump.

483
00:22:48.084 --> 00:22:50.686
So it has roots up to one meter.

484
00:22:50.887 --> 00:22:53.029
It can extract these chemicals.

485
00:22:54.250 --> 00:22:55.270
even the harder ones,

486
00:22:55.290 --> 00:22:57.331
the most stable ones that thought to be impossible,

487
00:22:57.451 --> 00:22:58.071
it picked up.

488
00:22:58.531 --> 00:23:00.712
And then it transported it through the roots,

489
00:23:00.752 --> 00:23:01.272
through the stems,

490
00:23:01.312 --> 00:23:02.332
into the leaves of the plant.

491
00:23:03.393 --> 00:23:06.634
So there were no traces found in the pollen,

492
00:23:07.014 --> 00:23:09.114
which was important to make sure the bees are safe.

493
00:23:09.394 --> 00:23:11.435
And there were no traces found in the stems.

494
00:23:11.615 --> 00:23:14.116
So leaves were the most contaminated part of the plant,

495
00:23:14.616 --> 00:23:19.497
which also refers a bit to the human body because we also have organs that filter out the pollution.

496
00:23:19.737 --> 00:23:21.278
It's kind of the same in the plant.

497
00:23:22.018 --> 00:23:24.040
And then they split up the plants,

498
00:23:24.360 --> 00:23:25.381
they took the leaves,

499
00:23:25.381 --> 00:23:27.002
they treated them at high temperatures,

500
00:23:27.443 --> 00:23:31.106
and they used the stems to make circular bio-based construction materials,

501
00:23:31.226 --> 00:23:32.207
the business model that

502
00:23:32.667 --> 00:23:33.648
I mentioned before.

503
00:23:34.729 --> 00:23:38.432
And that's how it started with that project.

504
00:23:39.793 --> 00:23:40.133
It was,

505
00:23:40.554 --> 00:23:42.075
and it is still not a magic pill,

506
00:23:42.135 --> 00:23:44.918
you cannot clean decades,

507
00:23:45.358 --> 00:23:48.040
60 years of forever chemical pollution in one crop,

508
00:23:48.420 --> 00:23:49.862
depending on the contamination.

509
00:23:50.306 --> 00:23:51.586
It can take a few years,

510
00:23:51.666 --> 00:23:52.627
can take decades,

511
00:23:52.807 --> 00:23:59.008
and we are focusing on mid-low contaminated areas because those are really feasible with phytoremediation.

512
00:23:59.949 --> 00:24:08.551
Now there are more projects that are being conducted and actually our PFAS projects are coordinated by former PFAS responsible of the city of Antwerp,

513
00:24:09.051 --> 00:24:09.671
Eric de Bran,

514
00:24:10.371 --> 00:24:12.812
and it's a lot more complex now.

515
00:24:13.012 --> 00:24:13.672
So for example,

516
00:24:13.672 --> 00:24:15.353
we have a project at Campus Vesta,

517
00:24:16.093 --> 00:24:18.574
which is an emergency services training ground,

518
00:24:18.594 --> 00:24:19.474
and they've been using

519
00:24:19.938 --> 00:24:23.160
a PFAS in the training exercises.

520
00:24:23.380 --> 00:24:24.621
It's not the case anymore.

521
00:24:25.342 --> 00:24:26.483
It's been stopped years ago,

522
00:24:26.683 --> 00:24:27.884
but the pollution is still there.

523
00:24:28.604 --> 00:24:36.710
So what is being done there is there are willow trees that are planted to suck contamination from the groundwater.

524
00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:40.212
And that's actually the drawback of the current solution.

525
00:24:40.332 --> 00:24:40.753
Currently,

526
00:24:41.233 --> 00:24:42.534
the excavation part is

527
00:24:43.230 --> 00:24:59.358
almost 800 000 euro per hectare and what is done is there are a lot of trucks that are coming in taking the ground and putting it into a special landfill there is no certain capacity to excavate everything in the landfill it emits a lot of co2 and then in winter when

528
00:24:59.478 --> 00:25:04.600
ground water table goes up with the rain the groundwater brings back that pollution

529
00:25:05.692 --> 00:25:06.993
So it's not really a solution.

530
00:25:07.454 --> 00:25:12.778
That's why there are willow trees planted to suck out contamination from the groundwater.

531
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:17.322
There is also hemp to suck contamination from the soil.

532
00:25:17.863 --> 00:25:18.363
And there,

533
00:25:18.904 --> 00:25:26.570
Eric and the team are using a lot of natural additives in the soil as well to test what will speed up the pickup of the pollution.

534
00:25:26.610 --> 00:25:27.131
And actually,

535
00:25:27.751 --> 00:25:32.676
intermediate results show that we can already speed it up in comparison to the initial pilot.

536
00:25:33.036 --> 00:25:33.877
quite significantly,

537
00:25:33.937 --> 00:25:36.839
but we are waiting for the official test to release that information.

538
00:25:37.900 --> 00:25:41.904
And then the process is going to be repeated for a few years.

539
00:25:42.624 --> 00:25:42.925
Now,

540
00:25:43.145 --> 00:25:45.467
hemp has been harvested already,

541
00:25:45.947 --> 00:25:48.510
and the leaves of the willow trees have been harvested as well.

542
00:25:48.630 --> 00:25:49.210
And next year,

543
00:25:49.350 --> 00:25:50.792
willow trees will continue growing,

544
00:25:51.212 --> 00:25:52.253
cleaning the groundwater,

545
00:25:52.413 --> 00:25:57.898
and new hemp will be planted with the best bio-additives in the soil to continue cleaning it up as well.

546
00:25:58.378 --> 00:25:58.598
Okay,

547
00:25:58.979 --> 00:25:59.900
so you're trying to

548
00:26:00.424 --> 00:26:04.266
to take out these chemicals from the soil by using nature-based solutions.

549
00:26:04.606 --> 00:26:05.226
In this case,

550
00:26:05.406 --> 00:26:08.868
willows to get really deep into the groundwater and hemp.

551
00:26:10.009 --> 00:26:16.492
And then you just harvest the leaves of the tree and the leaves of the hemp in which the chemicals are.

552
00:26:18.173 --> 00:26:18.673
have arrived,

553
00:26:18.713 --> 00:26:19.794
like have concentrated.

554
00:26:20.195 --> 00:26:23.197
Then you process these to get rid of the chemicals.

555
00:26:23.257 --> 00:26:26.800
Do you manage to break them down or you just lock them away somewhere?

556
00:26:27.881 --> 00:26:29.562
So in this case,

557
00:26:29.562 --> 00:26:33.606
we harvest the full hemp and we harvest the leaves of the willow trees.

558
00:26:33.746 --> 00:26:37.669
And now we have a higher concentration of PFAS than is spread out in the soil.

559
00:26:38.430 --> 00:26:40.732
And currently we are testing a couple of scenarios.

560
00:26:41.332 --> 00:26:49.677
on sending them through different processes of where we can make sure the temperatures are high enough to get rid of PFAS.

561
00:26:50.197 --> 00:26:54.439
And I'll be able to share more information in a few months once those pilots are complete.

562
00:26:54.739 --> 00:26:54.880
Yeah,

563
00:26:55.080 --> 00:26:55.900
so those pilots,

564
00:26:56.020 --> 00:27:01.863
so what you're saying here is that you're trying to test different ways of growing these plants with different additives,

565
00:27:01.923 --> 00:27:05.966
different methods to see which ones are the most efficient at soaking up that chemicals.

566
00:27:06.026 --> 00:27:10.268
We're still really early in the innovation process in this very new field.

567
00:27:11.124 --> 00:27:11.844
We're quite early,

568
00:27:12.005 --> 00:27:13.585
but we know for sure that it works.

569
00:27:13.645 --> 00:27:16.427
We've already managed to speed up the process quite significantly.

570
00:27:16.827 --> 00:27:17.628
So it cleans up.

571
00:27:17.968 --> 00:27:21.330
And then now we are testing the destruction pathways,

572
00:27:21.370 --> 00:27:24.231
which are also based on already existing scientific research.

573
00:27:24.792 --> 00:27:25.272
So yes,

574
00:27:25.312 --> 00:27:25.992
we're early days,

575
00:27:26.032 --> 00:27:27.533
but we already know it works.

576
00:27:28.093 --> 00:27:31.175
And there is nobody else providing better solutions.

577
00:27:31.175 --> 00:27:32.416
So we have to keep innovating.

578
00:27:32.416 --> 00:27:33.796
We have to speed up the process.

579
00:27:34.477 --> 00:27:38.819
And there are so many mid-low contaminated areas everywhere.

580
00:27:39.600 --> 00:27:40.160
I think we have...

581
00:27:40.320 --> 00:27:58.274
a lot of work to do so um another part of this whole operation is harvesting the hemp and and using it to make bio-based materials i think that's what you said earlier yeah could you tell us some more about that uh yes of course so maybe first let me clarify um there

582
00:27:58.274 --> 00:28:05.160
are three types of lands that we are working on it all started with pephas but it kind of grew bigger so you

583
00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:06.200
You have the polluted lands,

584
00:28:06.260 --> 00:28:11.663
whether it's PFAS or other types of contamination and different combination of nature-based solutions to clean it up.

585
00:28:12.663 --> 00:28:16.445
We have a farming land and most of our farming land is degraded,

586
00:28:16.505 --> 00:28:17.305
52%.

587
00:28:17.325 --> 00:28:17.765
In Belgium,

588
00:28:17.825 --> 00:28:19.126
it's 60-70%.

589
00:28:19.846 --> 00:28:23.128
And it will be 90% by 2050 if we don't do anything.

590
00:28:23.648 --> 00:28:27.870
So here we work on clean land with farmers through rotation crops.

591
00:28:28.470 --> 00:28:29.830
And then there is a third type of land,

592
00:28:29.850 --> 00:28:30.911
which is deserted land,

593
00:28:31.011 --> 00:28:33.532
where we are starting projects now in the south of Spain.

594
00:28:34.020 --> 00:28:43.083
to revive that land also with a combination of nature-based solutions and hemp for a business model on it to kind of push the deserts back and revive that land.

595
00:28:44.023 --> 00:28:47.984
Now we mainly focus on materials production from clean lands.

596
00:28:48.544 --> 00:28:51.525
That would mean agricultural land or deserted land.

597
00:28:52.885 --> 00:29:02.788
In certain cases if it's a large project we can also split up the polluted parts as I explained and the leaves and use the stems of the materials on the contaminated land.

598
00:29:03.232 --> 00:29:09.916
But I want to clarify that never ever are we using contaminated plant parts to make construction materials.

599
00:29:10.096 --> 00:29:12.517
There is no sense to move the problem elsewhere.

600
00:29:13.258 --> 00:29:14.478
And we are only using,

601
00:29:15.019 --> 00:29:16.079
in case of polluted land,

602
00:29:16.139 --> 00:29:22.023
scientifically tested materials to make sure that there is no contamination in them.

603
00:29:22.823 --> 00:29:24.804
I want to be 100% clear on that.

604
00:29:25.565 --> 00:29:26.465
And then indeed,

605
00:29:27.186 --> 00:29:29.827
hemp is one of the strongest natural fibers in the world.

606
00:29:30.427 --> 00:29:31.388
And actually,

607
00:29:31.748 --> 00:29:55.118
we used to use it a lot we owe our wealth in flanders as well to hemp because it was grown everywhere for construction for ship sales for clothes as well for paper um it was also used in the food industry and there is a special un report as well calling hemp superfood um so you can try hemp oil or hemp proteins for example hemp seeds um

608
00:29:56.299 --> 00:29:58.380
even you know uh

609
00:29:59.080 --> 00:30:03.504
We used to be able to cross the seas because of the sails made out of hemp.

610
00:30:04.405 --> 00:30:07.287
Henry Ford made a car out of hemp,

611
00:30:07.347 --> 00:30:08.988
biocomposite running on the hemp fuel.

612
00:30:09.028 --> 00:30:09.709
So it was really,

613
00:30:09.769 --> 00:30:10.510
really widespread.

614
00:30:12.191 --> 00:30:18.176
And there is a vast amount of materials that you can make out of it because it grows really fast.

615
00:30:18.256 --> 00:30:19.397
Imagine a tree takes

616
00:30:19.797 --> 00:30:23.060
15, 20 years to get a certain amount of biomass.

617
00:30:23.120 --> 00:30:25.082
Hemp grows to four meters in just four months.

618
00:30:25.342 --> 00:30:27.144
So you have a lot of biomass to process.

619
00:30:27.804 --> 00:30:29.945
There are certain materials that we are focusing on,

620
00:30:29.985 --> 00:30:31.806
mainly Frederick with the C-Biotech,

621
00:30:31.806 --> 00:30:32.847
the physical process.

622
00:30:34.327 --> 00:30:35.788
And they are quite innovative.

623
00:30:36.128 --> 00:30:36.909
I really love them.

624
00:30:37.049 --> 00:30:39.410
So one of those materials is,

625
00:30:39.430 --> 00:30:40.070
for example,

626
00:30:40.230 --> 00:30:41.171
a sandwich panel.

627
00:30:41.251 --> 00:30:45.073
A sandwich panel is a modular element that you can use in different types of construction,

628
00:30:45.173 --> 00:30:47.654
like warehouses or residential buildings.

629
00:30:49.479 --> 00:30:49.939
Normally,

630
00:30:50.140 --> 00:30:52.761
one of the typical ones on the outside is made out of wood,

631
00:30:53.301 --> 00:30:55.703
and on the inside out of fossil fuel-based insulation.

632
00:30:55.903 --> 00:30:57.724
So even now with the retrofitting wave,

633
00:30:57.784 --> 00:31:01.086
we're insulating our houses with fossil fuel-based insulation.

634
00:31:02.807 --> 00:31:05.208
Kind of goes against the point of cutting down the emissions a bit.

635
00:31:06.609 --> 00:31:12.312
What we're focusing on is hemp wood on the outside instead of normal wood.

636
00:31:12.752 --> 00:31:17.235
And this way we can save 5,000 to 1,000 trees per hectare per year because we don't need to cut them.

637
00:31:17.795 --> 00:31:21.897
It's also stronger than wood because it's one of the strongest natural fibers and it's fully circular.

638
00:31:21.997 --> 00:31:23.137
So at the end of life,

639
00:31:23.137 --> 00:31:26.499
you can either repurpose it or chop it and make exactly the same hemp wood.

640
00:31:27.379 --> 00:31:28.680
And then on the inside,

641
00:31:29.140 --> 00:31:35.903
it's hemp fibers which are cut and then mycelium spores that are mixed in them and it grows in seven days.

642
00:31:35.923 --> 00:31:38.044
So it's really mycelium-based insulation,

643
00:31:38.624 --> 00:31:39.384
which is like a...

644
00:31:40.285 --> 00:31:43.906
Mycelium is a root-alike network of fungi.

645
00:31:44.186 --> 00:31:45.967
So you have mushrooms as a top,

646
00:31:46.187 --> 00:31:48.348
as a fruit and you have mycelium below the ground.

647
00:31:48.828 --> 00:31:50.709
So that's what we are focusing on.

648
00:31:50.749 --> 00:31:55.731
We're using hemp fibers to feed the mycelium spores to grow that insulation in seven days.

649
00:31:56.292 --> 00:31:59.073
So imagine we used to extract fossil fuels,

650
00:31:59.133 --> 00:31:59.873
transport them,

651
00:31:59.973 --> 00:32:05.996
send them through complex manufacturing processes so that we can insulate our homes and now we can grow it locally in seven days.

652
00:32:06.816 --> 00:32:12.659
The beauty also of that material like a sandwich panel is that typically construction materials emit a lot of CO2.

653
00:32:13.255 --> 00:32:15.156
So construction is one of the largest polluters,

654
00:32:15.256 --> 00:32:19.558
almost 40% of our emissions and 30% of waste globally.

655
00:32:20.558 --> 00:32:22.399
But with this type of materials,

656
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:22.879
actually,

657
00:32:22.919 --> 00:32:25.680
because hemp grows fast and uses a lot of CO2 to grow,

658
00:32:25.860 --> 00:32:26.440
there is a lot of

659
00:32:27.021 --> 00:32:28.881
CO2 that is stored in the biomass.

660
00:32:29.602 --> 00:32:33.964
And the end result of making that sandwich panel is that it actually stores CO2 inside.

661
00:32:34.084 --> 00:32:34.984
It's carbon negative.

662
00:32:35.444 --> 00:32:39.366
So this way we can also turn construction from a huge carbon emitter into a huge carbon sink.

663
00:32:40.306 --> 00:32:42.067
So that's one example of material.

664
00:32:42.527 --> 00:32:43.568
the sandwich panel.

665
00:32:43.748 --> 00:32:46.389
So if I understand the full story here,

666
00:32:47.050 --> 00:32:47.910
it's really amazing,

667
00:32:48.090 --> 00:32:48.311
right?

668
00:32:48.611 --> 00:32:53.193
You're growing hemp on degraded soil and hemp is known to be really good for soil health.

669
00:32:53.374 --> 00:32:54.854
It has this really long,

670
00:32:55.375 --> 00:33:01.338
deep tap roots that are great at breaking up compaction and it's great for soil structure,

671
00:33:01.438 --> 00:33:02.219
for moisture,

672
00:33:02.339 --> 00:33:03.520
for fertility,

673
00:33:03.960 --> 00:33:04.920
for so many things.

674
00:33:05.040 --> 00:33:08.643
And that makes it such a great addition to a farming rotation.

675
00:33:09.831 --> 00:33:19.956
And then you're harvesting that hemp to make these really cool bio-based materials that are that offer a great alternative to potentially much more harmful materials.

676
00:33:20.936 --> 00:33:21.516
And finally,

677
00:33:22.177 --> 00:33:24.478
hemp is great at sequestering carbon,

678
00:33:24.858 --> 00:33:27.619
so in the soil and also in its biomass.

679
00:33:28.139 --> 00:33:30.761
And so when you're making these materials,

680
00:33:31.441 --> 00:33:35.042
that carbon is being captured in these building materials,

681
00:33:35.102 --> 00:33:35.303
right?

682
00:33:36.635 --> 00:33:37.576
So first of all,

683
00:33:37.696 --> 00:33:39.878
it's a great point that you made with rotation crops,

684
00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:43.481
because that's how we work with farmers.

685
00:33:43.701 --> 00:33:44.882
Imagine in Belgium,

686
00:33:44.902 --> 00:33:46.423
we all love potatoes and

687
00:33:46.864 --> 00:33:47.705
Belgian fries.

688
00:33:47.925 --> 00:33:50.227
I'm not going to call them French or,

689
00:33:50.247 --> 00:33:50.487
you know,

690
00:33:50.567 --> 00:33:53.389
stomp and all kinds of different potato variations.

691
00:33:53.990 --> 00:34:00.755
But farmers can grow potatoes only once in four or five years because potatoes suck all the nutrients out of soil.

692
00:34:00.816 --> 00:34:01.676
And in between,

693
00:34:01.696 --> 00:34:02.837
you need to plant other crops.

694
00:34:03.198 --> 00:34:04.679
And hemp can be a perfect...

695
00:34:04.999 --> 00:34:19.953
other crop like that because it indeed increases soil biodiversity and helps restore soils and there have been even scientific studies that if you use hemp as a rotation crop you can bring the yields up of the main crop by at least 5 to 15 percent so potato

696
00:34:20.013 --> 00:34:30.222
farmers are better off because they have more potatoes we are better off because our potatoes are more nutritious and in the meantime we use hemp to make materials for better buildings that actually remove carbon and store it

697
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:33.140
So depending on the material,

698
00:34:33.180 --> 00:34:35.920
we are at different stages of industrialization process.

699
00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:37.201
Some materials,

700
00:34:37.321 --> 00:34:39.101
and I'll give you an example just in a little bit,

701
00:34:39.141 --> 00:34:41.082
because it's a really cool game changer as well.

702
00:34:41.582 --> 00:34:44.623
Some are ready to go and can plug in into existing processes.

703
00:34:45.083 --> 00:34:45.963
And for some materials,

704
00:34:45.983 --> 00:34:50.145
we're currently repurposing the facilities because we are not building new factories to produce it.

705
00:34:50.145 --> 00:34:53.326
We find partners to collaborate and repurpose existing facilities.

706
00:34:53.986 --> 00:34:56.066
Those will require from a few months up to a year,

707
00:34:56.146 --> 00:34:57.887
maybe to put really into them.

708
00:34:58.347 --> 00:35:03.949
an industrial process and we already have offtake agreements with partners in place to use these materials as well.

709
00:35:04.510 --> 00:35:19.196
Okay cool cool staying on the on the farmer's side of the story a little bit actually so when you're sort of picking land where you're going to grow that hemp first of all how do you choose it do you identify

710
00:35:19.276 --> 00:35:26.419
places that are heavily polluted or degraded and then you contact the landowners or is that the other way around how does that work?

711
00:35:27.775 --> 00:35:29.698
So for polluted places,

712
00:35:30.038 --> 00:35:32.882
it's through connections where we know there is pollution.

713
00:35:32.922 --> 00:35:33.643
As I mentioned,

714
00:35:34.864 --> 00:35:39.050
our PFAS project coordinator is a former PFAS responsible of the city of Antwerp.

715
00:35:40.391 --> 00:35:43.736
So we are starting to get to know a lot of...

716
00:35:44.396 --> 00:35:46.217
land owners that have polluted grounds.

717
00:35:47.398 --> 00:35:49.640
And that's how we get projects.

718
00:35:49.700 --> 00:35:50.901
Now we start getting,

719
00:35:50.981 --> 00:35:51.941
reaching out as well,

720
00:35:51.981 --> 00:35:55.544
also from other countries to help them with our projects as well.

721
00:35:55.584 --> 00:35:57.085
And it's kind of becoming a magnet,

722
00:35:57.185 --> 00:35:57.365
right?

723
00:35:57.385 --> 00:35:59.106
Because we're doing something really innovative.

724
00:36:00.227 --> 00:36:02.909
When it comes to working on rotation crops with farmers,

725
00:36:02.929 --> 00:36:04.510
we reach out to farmers directly.

726
00:36:05.110 --> 00:36:06.671
It's a very straightforward contract.

727
00:36:06.691 --> 00:36:09.973
We pay them for growing the crop on a rotation basis.

728
00:36:11.374 --> 00:36:13.636
And we provide the seeds.

729
00:36:14.356 --> 00:36:16.538
We help provide education and other materials.

730
00:36:17.138 --> 00:36:20.240
And then we harvest the crop and we make materials out of them.

731
00:36:20.941 --> 00:36:22.262
And for deserted lands,

732
00:36:22.262 --> 00:36:25.824
we are now starting a very exciting project in south of Spain,

733
00:36:25.824 --> 00:36:26.345
in Murcia,

734
00:36:26.385 --> 00:36:27.565
with a regenerative farmer,

735
00:36:28.366 --> 00:36:28.926
Alfonso,

736
00:36:29.146 --> 00:36:33.910
who is dreaming to restore 30,000 hectares of land and bring the river back.

737
00:36:34.570 --> 00:36:36.712
Because everything is dried out because of intensive,

738
00:36:36.892 --> 00:36:38.313
water-intensive agriculture.

739
00:36:39.213 --> 00:36:41.515
And we are collaborating together with him now to,

740
00:36:41.515 --> 00:36:42.315
you know,

741
00:36:42.355 --> 00:36:42.996
with the different...

742
00:36:43.484 --> 00:36:43.804
Actually,

743
00:36:44.045 --> 00:36:44.685
in that region,

744
00:36:44.705 --> 00:36:47.367
they used to grow hemp for 11 generations for Spanish Armada.

745
00:36:48.508 --> 00:36:53.152
And they even still have a hemp factory that was closed in 1938.

746
00:36:53.472 --> 00:36:58.677
So now we are collaborating together with him to bring different combination of nature-based solutions,

747
00:36:58.717 --> 00:36:59.417
including hemp,

748
00:36:59.838 --> 00:37:00.919
to restore that land.

749
00:37:01.399 --> 00:37:06.083
And we are discussing with partners also new projects around the globe for that.

750
00:37:08.185 --> 00:37:11.688
I can't reveal that partnership yet because it has not been announced.

751
00:37:11.748 --> 00:37:11.948
But...

752
00:37:12.464 --> 00:37:12.724
Yeah,

753
00:37:13.205 --> 00:37:17.829
there are a lot of lands that need attention and depending on the type of project,

754
00:37:17.949 --> 00:37:22.192
it's a different way to get in touch with those landowners.

755
00:37:22.993 --> 00:37:29.798
I know there are quite a few farmers listening to this podcast and I would love it if they could leave us with some practical information today.

756
00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:37.284
So typically farmers have a set crop rotation plant and if they were to start growing hemp,

757
00:37:37.304 --> 00:37:40.587
they would have to replace one of the crops from the rotation with the hemp.

758
00:37:41.188 --> 00:37:41.308
So...

759
00:37:41.952 --> 00:37:48.295
I was wondering how it compares usually financially for the farmer to replace that crop with hemp.

760
00:37:50.096 --> 00:37:50.516
Of course,

761
00:37:50.716 --> 00:37:53.478
we have a special team focusing on working together with farmers.

762
00:37:53.538 --> 00:37:59.341
So happy to forward and introduce any potential inquiries for more detailed information.

763
00:37:59.841 --> 00:38:01.002
I'll give you an overview though.

764
00:38:01.102 --> 00:38:01.222
So

765
00:38:05.024 --> 00:38:05.404
I don't...

766
00:38:05.944 --> 00:38:09.706
expect farmers to transition to a sustainable agricultural by themselves.

767
00:38:09.786 --> 00:38:10.467
It's impossible,

768
00:38:10.527 --> 00:38:10.767
right?

769
00:38:10.907 --> 00:38:12.348
Farmers are struggling enough.

770
00:38:12.888 --> 00:38:16.590
We need to make sure that they're paid enough to grow other crops.

771
00:38:18.511 --> 00:38:20.412
So in terms of a contract,

772
00:38:20.892 --> 00:38:25.695
let's say it's not as much as they would earn for the main crop of the year once in five years like potatoes.

773
00:38:26.175 --> 00:38:28.977
But it's very interesting in comparison to other rotation crops,

774
00:38:29.477 --> 00:38:34.500
because we know that farmers mainly take a decision on return on investment right now.

775
00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:40.762
And we want to make sure that they are getting good returns on growing regenerative crops as well.

776
00:38:42.763 --> 00:38:48.385
Let me just take a really short break from this conversation to tell you about the partner of this podcast,

777
00:38:48.745 --> 00:38:49.566
Soil Capital.

778
00:38:50.506 --> 00:38:58.069
Soil Capital is a company that helps to transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve the health of their soils.

779
00:38:59.030 --> 00:39:00.130
They're a really cool company.

780
00:39:00.390 --> 00:39:04.772
I love what they're doing and I'm super proud to be partnering with them for the deep sea.

781
00:39:04.932 --> 00:39:20.136
podcast if you're interested in learning more i will leave a link in the description of this episode so you mentioned earlier in the conversation that you're making different types of materials using hemp and i was wondering what what

782
00:39:20.176 --> 00:39:34.100
kind of materials are we talking about here so i'll give you a second example otherwise we would probably spend a whole day talking about different materials but i want to share about the second one which is really exciting and that's hemp biocomposite so biocomposite is actually

783
00:39:35.228 --> 00:39:36.589
normally fossil fuel based,

784
00:39:36.930 --> 00:39:39.552
it's made out of plastic and it's also all around us.

785
00:39:39.612 --> 00:39:40.733
So it can be in laptops,

786
00:39:40.773 --> 00:39:41.314
for example,

787
00:39:41.334 --> 00:39:43.055
in a lot of different applications.

788
00:39:44.296 --> 00:39:47.499
The material that we are launching is bio-based,

789
00:39:49.481 --> 00:39:50.742
based out of hemp as well.

790
00:39:51.503 --> 00:39:59.950
And what you get as a result is bio-based biocomposite pellets that you can plug in into existing manufacturing process.

791
00:40:00.310 --> 00:40:00.911
And instead of

792
00:40:01.499 --> 00:40:02.359
producing plastic,

793
00:40:02.439 --> 00:40:04.060
you produce a bio-based alternative.

794
00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:06.701
So nothing needs to be changed in terms of molds,

795
00:40:06.721 --> 00:40:08.122
in terms of production processes,

796
00:40:08.462 --> 00:40:11.143
but the input that you have is not fossil fuel-based,

797
00:40:11.203 --> 00:40:11.863
it's bio-based.

798
00:40:12.524 --> 00:40:15.785
And we are really super excited about it because we ran different pilots.

799
00:40:15.805 --> 00:40:20.567
We did really difficult molds and it really looks like plastic,

800
00:40:20.607 --> 00:40:21.487
but it's bio-based.

801
00:40:23.028 --> 00:40:28.590
The first project that we launch is going to be together with Traffic Road for traffic poles,

802
00:40:28.810 --> 00:40:30.451
non-barring traffic poles in cities.

803
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:34.482
But there are a lot of different applications that you can have for that.

804
00:40:34.522 --> 00:40:36.003
And it's also a game changer,

805
00:40:36.944 --> 00:40:41.047
helping us move away from fossil fuel based materials to bio based materials.

806
00:40:41.648 --> 00:40:43.349
So I really wanted to mention that one as well,

807
00:40:43.349 --> 00:40:45.551
because we're super excited for the upcoming launch.

808
00:40:45.911 --> 00:40:46.612
Sounds incredible.

809
00:40:46.732 --> 00:40:46.992
I mean,

810
00:40:47.833 --> 00:40:49.854
it's so many benefits to using hemp.

811
00:40:49.874 --> 00:40:54.338
And you said that we were already using hemp for a lot of things back in the days.

812
00:40:55.079 --> 00:40:55.879
Why did we drop it?

813
00:40:58.201 --> 00:41:00.403
My colleagues call it world's first fake news.

814
00:41:01.243 --> 00:41:04.024
So around 1937,

815
00:41:04.024 --> 00:41:04.764
if I'm not mistaken,

816
00:41:04.784 --> 00:41:05.364
there was a user,

817
00:41:05.364 --> 00:41:08.945
a US businessman that invested into paper production from wood.

818
00:41:09.285 --> 00:41:11.046
So previously paper was made out of hemp.

819
00:41:11.766 --> 00:41:19.768
He invested into paper made out of wood and he had connections with the governments and with the newspapers and they tied hemp to marijuana.

820
00:41:20.588 --> 00:41:21.589
They're in the same family,

821
00:41:21.669 --> 00:41:23.249
but hemp doesn't contain THC.

822
00:41:23.509 --> 00:41:26.350
So you need to smoke approximately six hectares,

823
00:41:26.490 --> 00:41:29.991
which is around 60 tons to fill something of industrial hemp.

824
00:41:30.551 --> 00:41:32.733
But they tied it to Marijuana anyway.

825
00:41:33.213 --> 00:41:36.916
And that's when the wave of ban of hemp happened all around the world.

826
00:41:37.716 --> 00:41:39.138
And now it's making a comeback.

827
00:41:39.458 --> 00:41:42.600
So now it's in the EU Green Deal for revolutionizing construction,

828
00:41:42.640 --> 00:41:45.462
but also working together with the agricultural sector.

829
00:41:45.943 --> 00:41:48.865
It's also in the UN Special Report for construction,

830
00:41:49.025 --> 00:41:49.766
circular materials,

831
00:41:49.766 --> 00:41:51.047
and also superfood.

832
00:41:52.668 --> 00:41:55.470
So it's making a comeback around the world.

833
00:41:55.490 --> 00:41:55.990
And that's why,

834
00:41:56.010 --> 00:41:56.631
for example,

835
00:41:56.931 --> 00:42:00.413
When I mentioned that regenerative Spanish farmer Alfonso,

836
00:42:00.453 --> 00:42:10.717
that's why they still have that factory to split hemp fibers and sheaves that has been closed in around 1938 and never reopened because of that ban.

837
00:42:11.137 --> 00:42:16.140
But it's actually a wonderful crop that can be used for so many things that

838
00:42:16.820 --> 00:42:19.261
I'm really happy to hear that it's having a comeback.

839
00:42:19.321 --> 00:42:23.523
And sometimes we still have to struggle against negative perceptions or certain regulations.

840
00:42:23.903 --> 00:42:24.463
But overall,

841
00:42:24.503 --> 00:42:29.805
there is a huge support now coming up and a lot of material innovations that are made out of hemp.

842
00:42:30.586 --> 00:42:30.866
I mean,

843
00:42:31.426 --> 00:42:33.087
that's such a mind-blowing story.

844
00:42:33.527 --> 00:42:47.693
How were we able to go against science and against the whole established industry that was a huge part of our lives and our economy and completely drop it and dismantle it in favor of an alternative?

845
00:42:49.054 --> 00:42:51.274
But that story also...

846
00:42:52.635 --> 00:43:07.987
gives me hope in the sense that it shows that we can do that we we're capable of completely transitioning to a different mode of action a different source material a different way of doing things quite radically if we really choose to do so for

847
00:43:08.067 --> 00:43:18.415
sure i mean the longer i work in sustainability space the more questions like that i have like how did we manage to do this or how did we manage to do that and why is it normal in our world

848
00:43:19.179 --> 00:43:19.679
But indeed,

849
00:43:19.820 --> 00:43:25.783
that means that we can completely switch and we can learn from that story and turn it into a positive story of action.

850
00:43:26.604 --> 00:43:30.787
The way how we are doing that is to make sure that we cover the whole chain.

851
00:43:32.048 --> 00:43:34.049
That's why we work together with farmers.

852
00:43:34.129 --> 00:43:37.531
That's why we also work together with production companies,

853
00:43:37.571 --> 00:43:38.812
material production companies.

854
00:43:38.812 --> 00:43:42.034
That's why we work together also with construction companies.

855
00:43:43.555 --> 00:43:44.655
for the material offtake.

856
00:43:44.735 --> 00:43:51.697
That's why we also have the technology platform on top to trace it and get carbon credits because you can't just switch to hemp in one day.

857
00:43:51.697 --> 00:43:52.798
A farmer can grow it,

858
00:43:52.778 --> 00:43:54.358
but then who is he going to sell it to?

859
00:43:54.998 --> 00:44:01.540
You need an offtake of that and you need to bring those different industries together in radical collaboration to establish the whole chain.

860
00:44:01.700 --> 00:44:02.060
Otherwise,

861
00:44:02.080 --> 00:44:03.201
it's just not going to work.

862
00:44:03.961 --> 00:44:08.142
But we are not here for simple solutions that help switch like that.

863
00:44:08.182 --> 00:44:11.683
We are here for systemic change and are really

864
00:44:12.243 --> 00:44:33.995
love the way that how holistic that solution is because it makes soils better it makes construction better it removes carbon and stocks it in buildings it also creates local jobs so we don't need to transport materials from one part of the world to another and that's what gets me really excited because we can make a lot of different things better at the same time yeah yeah very exciting yeah when

865
00:44:34.035 --> 00:44:41.679
there's these kind of really promising solutions and we want them to scale we there's different ways to go about it right and

866
00:44:42.235 --> 00:44:43.675
One important way,

867
00:44:43.896 --> 00:44:44.216
I think,

868
00:44:44.876 --> 00:44:45.416
is policy.

869
00:44:45.896 --> 00:44:53.098
Because obviously if we make the harmful practice or product illegal or much more difficult to produce,

870
00:44:53.458 --> 00:44:55.539
then it gives an advantage to the alternative.

871
00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:57.099
Do you see that happening?

872
00:44:57.319 --> 00:44:59.840
There is one that is...

873
00:45:00.580 --> 00:45:00.820
you know,

874
00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:02.722
restriction of harmful materials.

875
00:45:02.882 --> 00:45:04.544
And we could see that in chemicals,

876
00:45:04.584 --> 00:45:11.329
but we could also see that in fossil fuel-based materials because they're not that healthy always in buildings.

877
00:45:12.450 --> 00:45:15.693
So let's say banning is one part of the policy change.

878
00:45:15.913 --> 00:45:19.436
And we see that slowly starting to take pace.

879
00:45:19.797 --> 00:45:21.999
But another part of policy change is subsidies.

880
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:22.559
Currently,

881
00:45:22.659 --> 00:45:28.144
subsidies are still stimulating fossil fuel-based retrofitting.

882
00:45:28.284 --> 00:45:33.887
of our buildings and they should stimulate biobased alternatives instead if you really want to transition.

883
00:45:34.547 --> 00:45:42.071
And that's where we still need to make that change and educate the regulators and still work together with them to make sure that they support the right thing.

884
00:45:42.691 --> 00:45:42.811
Yeah,

885
00:45:42.951 --> 00:45:43.131
okay.

886
00:45:45.618 --> 00:45:51.822
If we compare today the biobased materials you're making from hemp with the existing alternatives,

887
00:45:52.342 --> 00:45:55.644
how does it compare in terms of performance but also in price?

888
00:45:56.325 --> 00:45:59.006
Is it an attractive product on the market today already?

889
00:46:01.208 --> 00:46:08.272
It's very difficult to compare directly biobased materials with traditional materials because they have different properties.

890
00:46:08.352 --> 00:46:09.172
So yes,

891
00:46:09.212 --> 00:46:11.714
you have certain values that you have to have.

892
00:46:12.566 --> 00:46:15.687
But it's not always as easy as substituting one apple with the other.

893
00:46:16.268 --> 00:46:19.669
Like there are advantages and disadvantages that you need to work on.

894
00:46:20.610 --> 00:46:21.710
So for example,

895
00:46:21.830 --> 00:46:23.271
if you look at the sandwich panel,

896
00:46:25.312 --> 00:46:27.533
to get to the same properties,

897
00:46:27.673 --> 00:46:28.773
it needs to be a bit thicker.

898
00:46:29.093 --> 00:46:30.294
So it takes away the space.

899
00:46:30.614 --> 00:46:31.534
But on the other hand,

900
00:46:31.774 --> 00:46:32.715
it's fully bio-based,

901
00:46:32.755 --> 00:46:33.315
it's circular,

902
00:46:33.395 --> 00:46:35.276
it's safer to breathe.

903
00:46:35.796 --> 00:46:37.777
It removes carbon from the atmosphere.

904
00:46:38.557 --> 00:46:39.718
And it actually has better...

905
00:46:40.586 --> 00:46:59.971
heat capacity meaning especially with heat waves we need 10 less costs to cool our buildings which the fossil fuel based insulation doesn't have so it's not always you know having exactly the same product just substituting one another and that's maybe a little bit of a challenge to hyperscale these bio-based materials um what

906
00:46:59.971 --> 00:47:09.454
we are trying to do is to make sure that it's a no-brainer choice um so when you switch one for the other it's not just having a

907
00:47:09.554 --> 00:47:12.615
good properties for a building and being more sustainable.

908
00:47:12.955 --> 00:47:21.518
But also we are trying to bring it on the similar price level so that it's easier for companies to switch because some companies are non-sensitive to price,

909
00:47:22.098 --> 00:47:23.498
but some companies are really are.

910
00:47:23.978 --> 00:47:26.539
And for construction to really pick up on those materials,

911
00:47:26.539 --> 00:47:33.081
we need to make sure that the the price is more or less similar so that the market can pick it up and make sure that it's a no brainer choice.

912
00:47:33.441 --> 00:47:34.582
And we are working towards that.

913
00:47:34.782 --> 00:47:35.002
Okay.

914
00:47:35.042 --> 00:47:35.162
Yeah.

915
00:47:35.606 --> 00:47:38.427
And there's another aspect of all of this we kind of skipped over.

916
00:47:38.487 --> 00:47:39.868
It's the carbon sequestration.

917
00:47:40.368 --> 00:47:43.269
You said that hemp is great at sequestering carbon.

918
00:47:43.809 --> 00:47:45.370
Can you give me more detail about this?

919
00:47:47.011 --> 00:47:49.292
So there are different ways to sequester carbon,

920
00:47:49.352 --> 00:47:49.532
right?

921
00:47:49.532 --> 00:47:52.973
There is a way to sequester carbon in soils through regenerative agriculture.

922
00:47:53.853 --> 00:47:54.734
And that's one way.

923
00:47:55.514 --> 00:48:00.216
What we are focusing on in sequestration in biobased materials and biochar.

924
00:48:01.977 --> 00:48:05.018
So that's the biomass of hemp that we are using.

925
00:48:05.830 --> 00:48:09.493
And let's take a concrete example.

926
00:48:09.593 --> 00:48:11.514
So we plant a hectare of hemp,

927
00:48:11.754 --> 00:48:13.035
and in the biomass,

928
00:48:13.135 --> 00:48:16.417
there is 9 to 15 tons of CO2 that is sequestered in the crop.

929
00:48:17.278 --> 00:48:18.559
Then we harvest that crop,

930
00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:19.359
we transport it,

931
00:48:19.399 --> 00:48:21.061
we produce a product,

932
00:48:21.061 --> 00:48:22.021
we put it in a building,

933
00:48:22.161 --> 00:48:23.662
and throughout those steps,

934
00:48:23.722 --> 00:48:25.223
we emit CO2 in the process,

935
00:48:25.504 --> 00:48:28.285
but there is still net removal of CO2 that is left.

936
00:48:29.346 --> 00:48:32.428
And that net removal is stuck in a building.

937
00:48:33.489 --> 00:48:34.470
And the idea is to...

938
00:48:35.486 --> 00:48:38.987
either keep it there for at least 100 years or to keep it for 50,

939
00:48:39.068 --> 00:48:47.751
60 years and then repurpose that material and put it in a new building for the same timeline so that we can remove carbon from atmosphere for longer.

940
00:48:48.611 --> 00:48:49.712
And that's how it works.

941
00:48:50.472 --> 00:48:53.253
And the different material is biochar,

942
00:48:53.293 --> 00:48:53.934
for example,

943
00:48:54.294 --> 00:48:55.754
you also can take biomass,

944
00:48:55.814 --> 00:48:57.315
hemp or another type of biomass,

945
00:48:57.375 --> 00:48:58.876
send it through a pyrolysis process,

946
00:48:58.916 --> 00:49:02.677
which is basically burning it without without oxygen,

947
00:49:03.117 --> 00:49:04.298
and it becomes coal.

948
00:49:04.678 --> 00:49:05.378
sort of coal,

949
00:49:05.758 --> 00:49:07.599
but not the coal that you extract from the ground,

950
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:09.119
but made from a biomass.

951
00:49:09.459 --> 00:49:11.440
And if you mix biochar in the soil,

952
00:49:11.560 --> 00:49:12.200
for example,

953
00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:13.420
or use it in construction,

954
00:49:13.921 --> 00:49:16.401
it keeps carbon for at least 2000 years.

955
00:49:17.041 --> 00:49:18.162
And in case of soils,

956
00:49:18.202 --> 00:49:23.643
it's also really great to regenerate soils because it attracts moisture and nutrients into the soil.

957
00:49:24.123 --> 00:49:28.425
And that's another way to remove carbon as well through plant biomass.

958
00:49:28.845 --> 00:49:33.206
And these are kind of the two main ways specifically we are focusing on.

959
00:49:34.006 --> 00:49:40.711
and we are collaborating with other partners on other carbon sequestration through nature-based solutions inside our projects as well.

960
00:49:41.051 --> 00:49:41.572
Yeah.

961
00:49:42.272 --> 00:49:49.097
Does that bring an extra financial incentive then to the whole operation because there's a price to carbon nowadays,

962
00:49:49.797 --> 00:49:53.500
the voluntary carbon market is also the official European market.

963
00:49:54.781 --> 00:49:57.883
Does that weigh into your equation?

964
00:49:59.184 --> 00:49:59.625
For sure.

965
00:49:59.885 --> 00:50:00.185
I mean,

966
00:50:00.245 --> 00:50:00.725
we need

967
00:50:01.666 --> 00:50:03.467
to generate more revenues,

968
00:50:03.467 --> 00:50:07.008
to be able to scale the impact and regeneration.

969
00:50:07.888 --> 00:50:11.549
And carbon credits is not an end goal,

970
00:50:11.629 --> 00:50:13.209
but it's a means to an end.

971
00:50:13.309 --> 00:50:17.951
It's one of the instruments that we are using to be able to regenerate more soils.

972
00:50:18.771 --> 00:50:24.252
And we are currently in the process of going through certification of the first carbon credits.

973
00:50:24.813 --> 00:50:29.734
And that's why we have the EarthPlus platform that we're building together with Delaware and Microsoft.

974
00:50:30.190 --> 00:50:57.238
to trace every project from field to final product so that it's not just a carbon credit that you don't know anything about but it's a super transparent one where as a customer you can log in anytime know what's the status of that project see what's exactly being done into which material it was turned into what's the exact life cycle analysis of that material in which building it was placed so that you have 100 transparency about what's happening to that carbon

975
00:50:57.930 --> 00:51:00.832
And because voluntary carbon market is a bit volatile,

976
00:51:00.972 --> 00:51:01.173
right?

977
00:51:01.173 --> 00:51:02.854
There have been some greenwashing scandals.

978
00:51:03.154 --> 00:51:06.417
We want to make sure that we are triple A on that sense.

979
00:51:08.925 --> 00:51:12.927
all our customers can be sure that they're investing in the real thing.

980
00:51:13.667 --> 00:51:17.929
So that's one of the technology processes we are working on for the transparency.

981
00:51:19.029 --> 00:51:19.149
So

982
00:51:19.889 --> 00:51:23.931
I guess I've been asking all of these questions about the different parts of the operation,

983
00:51:23.971 --> 00:51:26.612
because I'm trying to piece the puzzle together in my head.

984
00:51:27.853 --> 00:51:28.213
And

985
00:51:29.053 --> 00:51:29.773
I really love it.

986
00:51:30.494 --> 00:51:33.455
I love that it makes sense from an environmental perspective,

987
00:51:33.555 --> 00:51:38.297
because you're generating degraded land and cleaning up polluted soils.

988
00:51:39.665 --> 00:51:47.933
It makes sense from a climate perspective as well because you're sequestering carbon in the soils but also in the materials that you're making out of hemp.

989
00:51:49.655 --> 00:51:50.756
It makes sense for the farmers.

990
00:51:51.076 --> 00:51:51.677
We didn't really...

991
00:51:52.393 --> 00:52:10.476
go deep into the numbers here but from what you're telling me you're really trying to make sure that the transaction is beneficial for farmers and i think this is something that's absolutely crucial and finally the the business model makes sense for you as well and obviously that's something that's really important if you want a solution to scale so

992
00:52:12.381 --> 00:52:13.042
Did I miss anything?

993
00:52:14.502 --> 00:52:14.762
I mean,

994
00:52:14.762 --> 00:52:17.684
the idea is that we have a big cake and we can share with everyone,

995
00:52:17.744 --> 00:52:18.004
right?

996
00:52:18.064 --> 00:52:22.086
We can share with farmers to reward them for growing the crop.

997
00:52:22.386 --> 00:52:25.367
And so restoration is a side benefit of that,

998
00:52:25.427 --> 00:52:29.409
but they are rewarded for their work and providing the biomass.

999
00:52:31.410 --> 00:52:34.531
It's a benefit for the partners that are producing the materials.

1000
00:52:34.591 --> 00:52:39.053
It's a benefit for the customers because they have sustainable alternatives that are a no-brainer to switch.

1001
00:52:39.645 --> 00:52:40.005
Of course,

1002
00:52:40.025 --> 00:52:45.267
it's a benefit for us because we are a regenerative business and we need to make money to be able to run more projects.

1003
00:52:46.127 --> 00:52:48.008
So it has to be a benefit for everyone.

1004
00:52:48.068 --> 00:52:52.149
And then it's a benefit for companies that are buying carbon credits because they're buying transparent ones.

1005
00:52:52.829 --> 00:52:53.349
And believe me,

1006
00:52:53.389 --> 00:53:01.531
it's not an easy job to build a regenerative business all the way through because that's not how we've done things before.

1007
00:53:02.472 --> 00:53:03.772
We had business as usual,

1008
00:53:03.852 --> 00:53:04.052
right?

1009
00:53:04.052 --> 00:53:06.353
It was damaging and not taking into account nature.

1010
00:53:06.813 --> 00:53:09.135
We were slowly transitioning to sustainable business,

1011
00:53:09.175 --> 00:53:11.777
which was like less harm or no harm.

1012
00:53:11.898 --> 00:53:15.641
And now we're transitioning into regenerative business that actually does this win,

1013
00:53:15.701 --> 00:53:15.821
win,

1014
00:53:15.861 --> 00:53:16.001
win,

1015
00:53:16.041 --> 00:53:16.181
win,

1016
00:53:16.221 --> 00:53:17.422
win across every partner.

1017
00:53:17.843 --> 00:53:19.664
So it's not an easy model to put in place,

1018
00:53:19.684 --> 00:53:21.005
but I think we are really getting there.

1019
00:53:21.046 --> 00:53:22.006
And that's what really,

1020
00:53:22.066 --> 00:53:23.388
really makes me exciting that,

1021
00:53:23.668 --> 00:53:24.008
you know,

1022
00:53:24.068 --> 00:53:24.669
as a business,

1023
00:53:25.029 --> 00:53:27.651
you have a way to exist,

1024
00:53:27.671 --> 00:53:28.972
but also to make the world better.

1025
00:53:29.913 --> 00:53:32.255
And then in terms of hyperscaling the solutions,

1026
00:53:32.536 --> 00:53:34.237
I mentioned that we need to bring you.

1027
00:53:34.277 --> 00:53:35.877
this radical collaboration together.

1028
00:53:35.917 --> 00:53:38.098
So we have to start looking at things differently,

1029
00:53:38.198 --> 00:53:40.979
not just a bunch of players competing with each other,

1030
00:53:41.079 --> 00:53:47.661
but actually a bunch of players from different industries working together with each other to put that solution in place.

1031
00:53:48.341 --> 00:53:55.663
But a second thing of how we are doing is that we're also not shipping a bunch of Belgians everywhere to kind of open new offices and hyperscale the model,

1032
00:53:56.003 --> 00:54:02.825
but rather find local partners in the other markets where we can transfer our expertise and knowledge and help them set up.

1033
00:54:03.085 --> 00:54:04.466
a similar business case,

1034
00:54:04.927 --> 00:54:09.190
and then trace all those projects with the same technology platform to generate carbon credits,

1035
00:54:09.270 --> 00:54:10.151
nature investments,

1036
00:54:10.631 --> 00:54:11.512
transparent reporting,

1037
00:54:11.552 --> 00:54:11.672
etc.

1038
00:54:12.513 --> 00:54:15.635
So that's kind of our second approach to hyperscaling,

1039
00:54:16.056 --> 00:54:20.379
that is really working with local partners in different markets to make it work.

1040
00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:21.940
And in my opinion,

1041
00:54:21.980 --> 00:54:26.024
it's much better because you also don't need to start from scratch everywhere.

1042
00:54:26.064 --> 00:54:30.828
You already have really knowledgeable people and companies that can do the job.

1043
00:54:31.228 --> 00:54:31.508
Yeah,

1044
00:54:31.528 --> 00:54:32.029
makes sense.

1045
00:54:33.085 --> 00:54:35.547
If we can just talk numbers a little bit,

1046
00:54:36.828 --> 00:54:39.290
what is your objective and what kind of metrics,

1047
00:54:39.310 --> 00:54:45.755
what kind of KPIs are you looking at and where do you hope to get in the next 10-20 years?

1048
00:54:47.236 --> 00:54:51.259
So our big mission is to create the largest soil and sewage to clean up with nature.

1049
00:54:53.621 --> 00:54:54.202
That's a very,

1050
00:54:54.302 --> 00:54:57.925
very big ambitious goal and I don't know how many years it will take us to get there.

1051
00:54:58.405 --> 00:55:02.707
I really want to see regeneration in projects like that happening all around the world.

1052
00:55:03.487 --> 00:55:05.528
If you look in terms of shorter milestones,

1053
00:55:05.548 --> 00:55:10.611
we have a milestone to launch our technology platform beginning of next year.

1054
00:55:12.031 --> 00:55:12.691
We have a...

1055
00:55:12.992 --> 00:55:13.192
Sorry,

1056
00:55:13.272 --> 00:55:14.412
what's a technology platform?

1057
00:55:14.953 --> 00:55:15.393
So this,

1058
00:55:16.193 --> 00:55:19.054
the EarthPlus technology platform with Microsoft and Delaware,

1059
00:55:19.114 --> 00:55:22.256
where you can trace every project from field to final product,

1060
00:55:22.716 --> 00:55:23.877
where you have carbon credits,

1061
00:55:23.977 --> 00:55:24.497
where you can...

1062
00:55:25.061 --> 00:55:27.583
I have satellite imagery knowing what's going on in the field.

1063
00:55:27.623 --> 00:55:31.045
So like a lot of different technology pieces coming together for transparency,

1064
00:55:31.506 --> 00:55:33.247
carbon credits and ESG reporting.

1065
00:55:33.367 --> 00:55:35.568
So if I buy some of these panels in the future,

1066
00:55:36.189 --> 00:55:43.053
I should be able to scan the code somewhere and see exactly the whole story behind that panel and what happened there?

1067
00:55:43.834 --> 00:55:43.974
Well,

1068
00:55:44.054 --> 00:55:47.036
as the customers that are using the panel and the offtake agreements,

1069
00:55:47.076 --> 00:55:49.298
definitely they can go in and see the whole story.

1070
00:55:49.818 --> 00:55:51.960
As customers that are buying the carbon credit,

1071
00:55:51.1000 --> 00:55:52.840
which could be the same,

1072
00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:53.681
but could be different.

1073
00:55:54.101 --> 00:56:10.726
they can go and see the whole story as well um there will be also some philanthropic projects on there as well so people could contribute and nature land nature investments that we are going to launch as well um which i can't yet give you more information but it's coming soon and

1074
00:56:10.846 --> 00:56:20.689
as an investor you'll also be able to see the whole picture of what's happening so that's the milestone for beginning of next year we also have milestones to

1075
00:56:21.585 --> 00:56:25.226
start projects with local partners in quite a few big markets.

1076
00:56:26.467 --> 00:56:29.728
So that is all going on for the beginning of next year as well.

1077
00:56:30.328 --> 00:56:37.170
And the big milestone is also this restoration project in Spain that we are working on together with Alfonso,

1078
00:56:37.710 --> 00:56:46.573
because for us that would be really an amazing proof of concept that we can actually push the deserts back and we can restore soils.

1079
00:56:47.073 --> 00:56:48.294
Because as I mentioned before,

1080
00:56:48.314 --> 00:56:50.976
and I'm sure you've heard it a lot on your podcast that by 2050,

1081
00:56:51.637 --> 00:56:53.619
90% of our soils are going to be degraded.

1082
00:56:53.639 --> 00:56:55.900
So we need to act now to turn that back.

1083
00:56:56.541 --> 00:57:00.464
And like everybody on our team is really passionate about pushing the deserts back.

1084
00:57:01.145 --> 00:57:03.126
And that's why we're also really,

1085
00:57:03.187 --> 00:57:15.437
really excited about that project and the milestone to have everything in place and everything launched and to connect other farmers and other land owners around the region to restore that land as well.

1086
00:57:16.061 --> 00:57:20.083
Are you looking for more farmers to collaborate with at the moment?

1087
00:57:21.944 --> 00:57:22.204
I mean,

1088
00:57:22.264 --> 00:57:22.445
yes,

1089
00:57:22.465 --> 00:57:22.825
of course,

1090
00:57:22.825 --> 00:57:27.787
we are looking for farmers depends on the region and on the country at the moment.

1091
00:57:28.008 --> 00:57:28.648
And,

1092
00:57:28.868 --> 00:57:29.308
and yet,

1093
00:57:31.009 --> 00:57:33.010
we always work directly with farmers.

1094
00:57:33.030 --> 00:57:33.391
So yeah,

1095
00:57:33.551 --> 00:57:33.731
Okay,

1096
00:57:33.851 --> 00:57:34.051
sweet.

1097
00:57:34.071 --> 00:57:36.652
So if there are farmers listening who are interested,

1098
00:57:36.652 --> 00:57:37.393
they can get in touch,

1099
00:57:37.533 --> 00:57:37.773
right?

1100
00:57:37.793 --> 00:57:38.813
They can get in touch,

1101
00:57:38.894 --> 00:57:40.534
I'll put them in touch with our team.

1102
00:57:41.055 --> 00:57:44.557
And we see if it's a go for that certain region or not yet.

1103
00:57:44.817 --> 00:57:44.977
But

1104
00:57:45.437 --> 00:57:49.999
We're always open to have a conversation to see how we would collaborate together.

1105
00:57:51.160 --> 00:57:52.520
Awesome conversation so far.

1106
00:57:52.981 --> 00:57:53.701
I really love it.

1107
00:57:54.041 --> 00:57:54.681
Thank you so much.

1108
00:57:55.442 --> 00:57:55.982
Unfortunately,

1109
00:57:56.142 --> 00:57:59.324
time is running out and I'm going to have to start moving towards the end of the conversation.

1110
00:57:59.804 --> 00:58:01.565
But always keep some of the best for last,

1111
00:58:01.645 --> 00:58:04.526
some of the fun or hopeful questions for the end.

1112
00:58:04.926 --> 00:58:05.206
Okay.

1113
00:58:05.707 --> 00:58:05.847
Yeah.

1114
00:58:05.967 --> 00:58:06.947
And the next one is going to be,

1115
00:58:08.148 --> 00:58:10.609
are you hopeful about the future?

1116
00:58:11.593 --> 00:58:12.633
Of course I'm hopeful.

1117
00:58:12.673 --> 00:58:12.933
I mean,

1118
00:58:12.953 --> 00:58:14.174
we have no other choice.

1119
00:58:14.234 --> 00:58:19.615
We can sit in the corner and think that everything is lost and that's it.

1120
00:58:19.816 --> 00:58:22.456
Or we can hope and we can act.

1121
00:58:23.217 --> 00:58:23.597
And

1122
00:58:23.937 --> 00:58:25.377
I choose the second path.

1123
00:58:26.117 --> 00:58:29.538
Also because I'm surrounded by a lot of people that are actually really doers.

1124
00:58:29.598 --> 00:58:32.419
That's what I love about our team and our partners.

1125
00:58:33.040 --> 00:58:36.681
That you don't have time to kind of reminisce and think about what if.

1126
00:58:38.121 --> 00:58:41.522
all your energy goes towards the solutions and really exciting solutions.

1127
00:58:41.622 --> 00:58:45.523
And the more you get into sustainability and impact entrepreneurship space,

1128
00:58:45.523 --> 00:58:49.525
the more hopeful you become because of that vast range of solutions that is out there.

1129
00:58:49.885 --> 00:58:52.466
So I think we have no privilege to be non-hopeful.

1130
00:58:53.346 --> 00:58:55.347
We have to be hopeful and we have to act.

1131
00:58:55.927 --> 00:58:58.228
And that's a much better side to be on.

1132
00:58:58.768 --> 00:58:58.948
Yeah,

1133
00:58:59.108 --> 00:59:01.188
that's something that keeps coming back over and over.

1134
00:59:01.549 --> 00:59:02.669
A lot of people become...

1135
00:59:02.969 --> 00:59:04.991
eco-anxious.

1136
00:59:05.051 --> 00:59:05.631
And rightly so.

1137
00:59:05.751 --> 00:59:08.634
And I've been there and I'm sure you must have experienced that as well.

1138
00:59:08.794 --> 00:59:10.896
We start really learning about climate,

1139
00:59:11.436 --> 00:59:12.257
about the environment.

1140
00:59:12.377 --> 00:59:13.158
You start reading,

1141
00:59:14.299 --> 00:59:15.800
I won't say the IPCC reports,

1142
00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:20.304
but like summaries of the IPCC reports and you start feeling very,

1143
00:59:20.364 --> 00:59:22.185
very depressed about the state of the world.

1144
00:59:22.926 --> 00:59:31.213
But then everyone I've met who's actively working on solutions actually is much less anxious and much more hopeful.

1145
00:59:31.753 --> 00:59:32.934
And so to anyone listening,

1146
00:59:32.934 --> 00:59:35.256
if you feel that despair or,

1147
00:59:35.616 --> 00:59:35.857
you know,

1148
00:59:36.477 --> 00:59:38.238
that kind of energy over you,

1149
00:59:38.339 --> 00:59:40.580
the best thing to do is to get out there,

1150
00:59:40.841 --> 00:59:43.403
look at the solutions that you find the most exciting,

1151
00:59:43.423 --> 00:59:45.985
the most promising and just be a part of it.

1152
00:59:46.145 --> 00:59:47.006
Like we need more people.

1153
00:59:47.066 --> 00:59:47.186
So,

1154
00:59:47.846 --> 00:59:47.967
yeah.

1155
00:59:48.467 --> 00:59:49.408
100%.

1156
00:59:49.488 --> 00:59:49.628
And,

1157
00:59:50.509 --> 00:59:50.689
okay,

1158
00:59:50.729 --> 00:59:57.174
it's not an easy space to work in because you anyway come across news or graphs that are really scary,

1159
00:59:57.274 --> 00:59:57.535
right?

1160
00:59:57.975 --> 00:59:59.376
So at some point it is hard.

1161
01:00:00.953 --> 01:00:01.113
Yeah,

1162
01:00:01.113 --> 01:00:02.294
the best thing is action.

1163
01:00:02.434 --> 01:00:07.536
But also another thing that I found really cool from a CEO and founder of Oxygen

1164
01:00:08.296 --> 01:00:09.177
Conservation in the UK.

1165
01:00:09.677 --> 01:00:12.358
I think at some point you should have him on your podcast.

1166
01:00:12.398 --> 01:00:13.539
His name is Rich Stockdale.

1167
01:00:14.179 --> 01:00:19.181
And they also bring a business model to land restoration and regeneration with nature-based solutions,

1168
01:00:19.701 --> 01:00:22.123
including partially with regenerative farming.

1169
01:00:23.083 --> 01:00:26.144
And he actually has a psychologist on his team,

1170
01:00:26.164 --> 01:00:26.745
he told me,

1171
01:00:26.865 --> 01:00:27.305
because...

1172
01:00:27.765 --> 01:00:29.826
It seems spends a lot of time in nature already,

1173
01:00:29.866 --> 01:00:30.967
which is good for mental health.

1174
01:00:30.967 --> 01:00:32.348
They spend a lot of time on project,

1175
01:00:32.368 --> 01:00:35.250
but sometimes it's still really hard in the space.

1176
01:00:36.330 --> 01:00:36.610
And

1177
01:00:37.071 --> 01:00:43.254
I think that's a really cool way to support people to be in a better space to make impact.

1178
01:00:43.655 --> 01:00:44.135
Because no,

1179
01:00:44.255 --> 01:00:46.536
it's not all roses working in climate.

1180
01:00:47.177 --> 01:00:52.480
It is very helpful and we need to support each other to kind of grow towards that hope and action.

1181
01:00:53.460 --> 01:00:53.761
Awesome.

1182
01:00:54.761 --> 01:00:55.561
Very last question,

1183
01:00:55.722 --> 01:00:57.682
and that's a tradition on this podcast is,

1184
01:00:58.603 --> 01:01:04.865
if you could organize a dinner party and invite any three people from present time or from history,

1185
01:01:05.505 --> 01:01:06.285
who would you invite?

1186
01:01:06.706 --> 01:01:06.946
Why?

1187
01:01:07.326 --> 01:01:08.906
And what would you cook for them?

1188
01:01:10.527 --> 01:01:10.687
Hmm,

1189
01:01:11.567 --> 01:01:13.068
now you're making me want to,

1190
01:01:13.188 --> 01:01:13.448
you know,

1191
01:01:13.528 --> 01:01:16.269
go back to all your episodes and listen to what other people said.

1192
01:01:17.790 --> 01:01:18.730
I would invite...

1193
01:01:19.762 --> 01:01:20.222
Liu Spiu,

1194
01:01:20.442 --> 01:01:20.923
who is the

1195
01:01:21.403 --> 01:01:22.763
UN patron of the oceans,

1196
01:01:22.863 --> 01:01:25.424
is the guy who swims in the coldest places in the world,

1197
01:01:25.504 --> 01:01:28.026
like the Antarctica,

1198
01:01:28.246 --> 01:01:29.026
the North Pole,

1199
01:01:29.166 --> 01:01:29.686
Greenland,

1200
01:01:30.006 --> 01:01:30.907
in only speedos.

1201
01:01:31.667 --> 01:01:36.529
And he attracts attention of policymakers to the fact that there should be ice there,

1202
01:01:36.549 --> 01:01:37.249
but it's melting.

1203
01:01:37.650 --> 01:01:40.651
And then he negotiates for the creation of marine protected zones.

1204
01:01:40.971 --> 01:01:42.912
I saw him once at an event.

1205
01:01:42.992 --> 01:01:44.192
He's a real inspiration.

1206
01:01:44.913 --> 01:01:47.414
And I always knew I wanted to do something as big as him.

1207
01:01:47.514 --> 01:01:48.154
I knew I would.

1208
01:01:48.542 --> 01:01:50.343
suck at swimming in the cold water.

1209
01:01:51.543 --> 01:01:51.783
But

1210
01:01:52.524 --> 01:01:54.645
I wanted to have the same global ambition and

1211
01:01:55.465 --> 01:01:58.046
I do it now thanks to his inspiration.

1212
01:01:59.227 --> 01:02:00.907
The second person I would invite would be

1213
01:02:01.368 --> 01:02:02.008
Boyan Slat,

1214
01:02:02.148 --> 01:02:03.829
the founder of the Ocean Cleanup.

1215
01:02:04.849 --> 01:02:05.369
Once again,

1216
01:02:05.810 --> 01:02:08.471
his global vision inspired our global vision.

1217
01:02:09.311 --> 01:02:13.033
And thanks to the ambition of the Ocean Cleanup,

1218
01:02:13.213 --> 01:02:15.454
we now have a similar ambition on land.

1219
01:02:16.158 --> 01:02:19.639
And that really makes me excited every single day about what we are doing.

1220
01:02:20.879 --> 01:02:24.520
And the third person that I would invite wouldn't be from the climate space.

1221
01:02:24.540 --> 01:02:27.101
It would be Stephen Bartlett from the Diary of a CEO,

1222
01:02:27.141 --> 01:02:29.202
because I really enjoy his podcast.

1223
01:02:30.382 --> 01:02:31.682
I really enjoy his approach.

1224
01:02:32.263 --> 01:02:33.823
And I'd love to meet him one day.

1225
01:02:34.823 --> 01:02:37.664
So that would be my third dinner guest.

1226
01:02:39.205 --> 01:02:40.485
I would actually not cook for them.

1227
01:02:40.525 --> 01:02:44.026
I would ask my husband to cook for them because he's a much better cook than me.

1228
01:02:45.174 --> 01:02:45.535
Lucky me.

1229
01:02:46.496 --> 01:02:50.058
And I will ask him to cook dishes from their countries,

1230
01:02:50.519 --> 01:02:51.360
traditional dishes,

1231
01:02:51.420 --> 01:02:57.605
because my husband really likes international cuisine and different dishes.

1232
01:02:57.885 --> 01:03:03.970
So I'll ask him to cook a dish from each of their countries so that they could share at the dinner table,

1233
01:03:03.970 --> 01:03:05.411
we all could share at the dinner table,

1234
01:03:06.632 --> 01:03:08.734
and discuss not just projects and work,

1235
01:03:08.774 --> 01:03:12.397
but also interconnections between cultures and try different cuisines.

1236
01:03:12.477 --> 01:03:12.937
Interesting.

1237
01:03:13.718 --> 01:03:13.918
Yeah.

1238
01:03:14.346 --> 01:03:20.471
Stephen Barlett is probably one of my main influences for the Deep Seed podcast and also podcast I find very,

1239
01:03:20.551 --> 01:03:21.152
very good,

1240
01:03:21.352 --> 01:03:22.133
very interesting.

1241
01:03:22.693 --> 01:03:24.595
He's very impressive character as well.

1242
01:03:25.335 --> 01:03:33.002
And maybe that's one of the reasons I decided to start the Deep Seed is because I listen to podcasts like his quality of it.

1243
01:03:33.542 --> 01:03:36.425
But he's never really talking about the climate or the environment.

1244
01:03:36.485 --> 01:03:38.566
It's a lot about personal health,

1245
01:03:38.627 --> 01:03:40.668
about society and things like that.

1246
01:03:40.668 --> 01:03:42.590
And I thought we need someone who's doing

1247
01:03:42.910 --> 01:03:43.910
that on that level,

1248
01:03:44.451 --> 01:03:46.312
but talking about climate solutions.

1249
01:03:46.672 --> 01:03:48.072
I'm still a long way from his level,

1250
01:03:48.232 --> 01:03:48.773
but you know,

1251
01:03:48.913 --> 01:03:49.113
that's,

1252
01:03:49.253 --> 01:03:49.693
that's sort of.

1253
01:03:50.173 --> 01:03:51.594
You'll get there.

1254
01:03:51.634 --> 01:03:52.514
I really believe in you.

1255
01:03:52.694 --> 01:03:52.854
And

1256
01:03:53.735 --> 01:03:56.216
I do think it's a pity that Steven never mentions it.

1257
01:03:56.256 --> 01:03:57.897
I even sent him a message once about it,

1258
01:03:57.917 --> 01:03:59.517
but I'm sure he's bombarded every day,

1259
01:03:59.957 --> 01:04:04.759
but I'm happy that there are people like you that are really focusing on hope and the positive action and,

1260
01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:07.741
and talking to a lot of impact entrepreneurs and,

1261
01:04:08.441 --> 01:04:08.561
um,

1262
01:04:08.721 --> 01:04:10.322
and other people in the space that are.

1263
01:04:10.722 --> 01:04:12.304
doing something really actionable.

1264
01:04:12.865 --> 01:04:14.306
And I'm sure you'll get there.

1265
01:04:15.228 --> 01:04:16.910
I'll make sure to support your podcast.

1266
01:04:17.110 --> 01:04:17.430
Thank you.

1267
01:04:17.791 --> 01:04:21.015
You already did by spending this time with me and having this conversation.

1268
01:04:21.215 --> 01:04:22.456
Thank you so much for your time.

1269
01:04:22.917 --> 01:04:23.217
Thank you,

1270
01:04:23.237 --> 01:04:23.638
Rafa.