Welcome back to the Deep Seed Podcast.
We've all heard about forever chemicals on the news lately.
They are really strong chemicals that are super useful for many objects and products that we use on a daily basis,
like non-stick frying pans,
food packaging,
water repellent clothings,
cosmetics and cleaning products,
just to name a few.
The problem is that they are really
really strong and almost impossible to destroy and they have a tendency to leach out and accumulate in every part of our environment like in the soils,
in the rivers and seas,
in the food we eat and even inside of our own bodies.
And because our bodies are not capable of getting rid of them they just stay there and accumulate forever.
So yeah that's a huge issue and something that really deserves our attention and that requires solving.
And there's kind of two ways to go about it.
One is to stop adding more of these harmful chemicals into our environments.
And the other is to clean up the mess that we already made and clean up those chemicals from the soils,
from the sea and so on.
And this leads us to introducing my guest today,
Elena Doms.
She co-founded the company Earth Plus.
And what they're doing is
using nature-based solutions to clean up soils and to regenerate degraded land.
And one of the key ways they're doing that is by growing hemp.
And hemp is an amazing crop.
It has so many benefits for soil health,
for sequestering carbon,
and it can also be used to make a whole range of really cool biobased materials.
This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital.
I'm your host,
Raphael,
and this is the Deep Seed Podcast.
Hi,
Elena.
Hi,
Raphael.
Thanks a lot for inviting me into your home and for taking some of your precious time to have this conversation with me.
I'm excited.
Thank you for coming.
For a little bit of context,
for people listening,
we're in Belgium,
in Flanders,
and more specifically in Bortmerbeek.
Is that right?
Yes.
So it's a town that's roughly 25-30 minutes outside of Brussels.
But you haven't always lived here,
right?
The first thing that jumps to your eyes when you look at your story is that you grew up in the Arctic?
Yes.
Well,
that's something that you don't hear every day.
And for a lot of people,
I think,
me included,
I just pictured the Arctic as just a sheet of ice with maybe a few polar bears.
I didn't even know people were living there.
So I'd be really curious if you could tell us a little bit more about that place and the place you grew up in and what it was like.
For sure.
So first of all,
there are a lot of white ice sheets and polar bears in the Arctic,
so you're correct there.
But if you're trying to get a preview,
if you've seen James Bond's GoldenEye movie,
at the beginning of the movie,
there is this chemical weapons facility set in the high mountains full of snow.
And in that episode,
James Bond defeats everyone,
obviously.
And then he runs out and tries to flee,
but the plane falls over a cliff.
So he jumps in the plane and steers it away as a victor.
And they literally say that it's my home city.
To tell you the truth,
that's Switzerland,
not the Arctic.
But my home city is very flat,
a lot more cheerful.
And there are no mountains there,
but there is indeed a lot of ice.
It's located on the river,
which is quite wide,
two and a half kilometers wide.
And it splits the city into parts,
the main city part and small villages outside.
How it was like to grow up there?
Well,
I had a normal childhood in the sense that I had a very loving family,
my mom and my dad.
And,
you know,
that's just a normal family time that we had.
But there were some seasonal variations,
like,
for example,
the polar night and the polar day.
And in the winter,
before going to the kindergarten or to school,
my mom would dress me up as a little cabbage.
You know,
layers and layers of clothes.
We would go downstairs and before leaving the apartment block,
my dad would rub my nose and my cheeks really strong so that they wouldn't get frozen.
And he would cover me with a scarf just so that my eyes were visible.
We would step outside,
would be minus 30,
minus 35.
Really dark,
but the light would reflect off the snow.
And he would carry me in his arms all the way to the kindergarten,
making jokes and telling me stories and keeping me warm.
And in summers it would be the opposite,
so complete light all the time,
even in the middle of the night.
And we spent our summers in the summer house,
so about 20 kilometers from the city,
and went to the boreal forest.
My dad taught me how to walk on swamps.
We gathered mushrooms and berries,
grew some vegetables in the garden,
which was very risky because you never know what you're going to get with the Arctic weather.
Yeah,
and that's what my childhood was like.
It sounds very lovely.
And it's so strange to imagine living in a place where part of the year you get full darkness 24 hours a day.
And then on the opposite end of the year,
you get full light
24 hours.
That sounds so strange.
Isn't it hard to even fall asleep and have a normal sort of rhythm?
You know,
we were used to it back then.
So it's...
Yes,
in winter,
it was a little bit dark,
I would say.
But the lights would reflect from the snow and it would be okay.
And we were used to summers as well.
I'm not used to that anymore.
So now when I go home,
I can't sleep at night.
And once we went with my husband about 10 years ago in summers and in winters,
and he couldn't sleep either.
But he really did love the winter with,
you know,
ice everywhere.
Also ice over that river.
So the difference of living in the Arctic as well is that a lot of infrastructure is also based on ice.
So for example to cross the river you don't have a bridge but you literally have a road that stretches on ice and you have lights and you have cars driving on it and in the middle where ships pass the ice is broken every day and there you have like wooden boards that literally lay on water to cross from one side to another.
So that's kind of the the difference and and yeah
I was used to it back then now of course it's a little bit different.
Okay I see yeah and what brought you to the Arctic?
in the first place?
Were your parents from there or what's the story there?
My dad is from the Arctic.
He also used to have this half transparent eyes and we were always joking with my mom that maybe he's from a special nationality of people that grew up over there in the North with transparent eyes.
My mom herself is from another part of the country,
but after university,
she moved to the Arctic to work there and they...
met with my dad at the hospital and they fell in love and she stayed and I was born there.
Beautiful story.
And how old were you when you left the Arctic and came to the continent?
Well,
I left the Arctic for the first time when I was 15 because I went for a year abroad in the US and then I came back and then I left at 18.
I first started in St.
Petersburg and then I moved to Belgium.
So,
How did you go from growing up there in the Arctic to now living in Belgium and being a key figure in the regenerative space?
Where do I start?
I moved away from the Arctic because I went to study in St.
Petersburg first and to find a good job and,
you know,
somewhere you can grow.
That was kind of the road that I was looking forward to studying a good big university to move in a bigger city.
And in St.
Petersburg,
I was also part of a student organization called ISEC,
which is a youth organization that focuses a lot on social impact.
And at some point,
I applied for ISEC in Belgium.
I got a position here in the National Committee,
and that's how I moved to Belgium,
actually.
I worked here also as a country manager of ISIC in Belgium,
and then
Mastercard was looking for a Russian speaker to work with clients all across Armenia,
Belarus,
Ukraine,
the Stans,
and that's how I stayed in Belgium actually.
To see the pathway of how I ended up where I am,
I think there were some signals already back then,
maybe that I didn't notice yet.
So when I was thinking of
what to write my bachelor degree about in university,
I was trying to find what makes me interested,
what kind of makes my heart beat.
And I came across some articles about industrial agriculture,
about super weeds,
and about that really impacting our soils and our health,
and that was incorporated in my degree.
And I thought,
huh,
that's really interesting,
that's something that I want to work on in the future.
And then...
Even though I was working at Mastercard and I really loved it,
at the back of my head,
I always knew I wanted to do something more sustainability related.
Then I had two kids together with my husband and that really put me in a space where,
okay,
the time is now.
I have to take care of my children.
I did a degree on energy and climate in the University of Antwerp.
I realized how urgent the action is and what we need to do.
And that's when I arrived into space.
I have to really focus 100% on sustainability and impact.
And when I was working back at Mastercard,
I met an entrepreneur called Frederik Verstrate.
And he was one of the first people in the world who ran pilots to clean forever chemicals from soils with plants and to create a business model to regenerate even more soils.
And I fell in love with that story so much that deep inside of me,
I knew there is nothing else I want to do.
I want to focus on soil restoration.
and health as an outcome,
our health and climate impact.
And yeah,
that's how
I ended up where I am today.
Okay,
so from realizing you wanted to have a positive impact,
but to actually starting or co-founding your own company,
EarthPlus,
how did that happen?
So let me explain a little bit the story.
I think back in 2021,
there was this big scandal in Belgium around forever chemicals and PFAS.
And the Belgian government went around and they measured people's blood,
those living around the factor of 3M,
and the concentrations were 10 to 100 times above the recommended limit.
So the Belgian government obliged 3M to look for solutions,
but the only solution was to excavate the ground and put it somewhere else.
And yet,
if you dive into the problem of pollution over there around the whole Belgium and even in Europe,
you will see that it's extremely contaminated.
About a third of a continent is a giant red dot.
Flanders is one of the most polluted regions in Belgium,
so you can't just excavate whole cities.
And that's when Frederick thought,
maybe I can clean it up with the power of plants.
And they conducted a pilot together with Sofites in 2022.
Sofites is a postdoc at the University of Hasselt,
focusing on phyto-remediation.
And they proved the impossible.
They proved that it worked,
and I will explain a little bit later how that came to be.
And...
We were talking and I remembered Boyan Slade,
the founder of the Ocean Cleanup,
speaking on stage in Amsterdam.
And I came to Frederik and I said,
look,
Frederik,
if we can help clean one of the most contaminated places in the world,
we have to help clean the world.
We have to create the next Ocean Cleanup,
but for soils.
And back then,
he found a partner,
Philippe Cordel,
to start C-Biotech,
which is focusing on bio-based construction materials,
also on soil restoration.
we co-created EarthPlus together as a technology platform to trace all the physical projects from fields to final products,
to generate carbon credits and raise investments into nature restoration,
but also to hyperscale that model around the world through local partnerships.
So yes,
we co-created it together.
Okay,
I see.
Yeah.
We're talking about forever chemicals here or
PFAS.
And I feel like
almost everyone has heard about these forever chemicals on the news because there's been all of these scandals especially in belgium recently but i'm sure it happened also in in other places around the world and i feel like a lot of people me included don't
really know what they are these forever chemicals so maybe you could start by giving us a little crash course about what pfas forever chemicals are yes of course so but i think
Belgians and people in Flanders are probably the people who have heard almost the most about Forever Chemicals because it was all over the news indeed.
But basically this is a group of chemicals,
there are thousands of them,
that make things non-stick and water resistant.
So they were invented for example for non-stick frying pans but now they're in everyday items all around us.
So they can be in clothes,
in waterproof winter jackets,
they can be in our pizza boxes,
they can be in frying pans.
They're in laptops,
in our phones,
in paint,
in furniture.
The thing is that because of their useful properties,
they do not decompose in nature.
And that's why scientists call them forever,
because they fear that those chemicals will stay there for millennia.
They're really strong.
New temperatures above 1,400 degrees to break them down.
The problem with that is that they do not decompose and they accumulate.
Accumulate in nature and our bodies as well.
And that causes all kinds of diseases.
So currently,
global societal costs are estimated to be 17.5 trillion US dollars a year.
That's just healthcare and cleanups.
But you also have impact on wildlife.
You also have all kinds of other impacts,
like on real estate,
for example.
And there was also another research saying that if you continue producing them at the same speed as we do now,
it will take more than global GDP to clean them up with existing technologies.
So it's really,
really a big issue and we have to tackle it on many levels.
We have to close the tap and find safer alternatives.
And actually,
in 92% of the cases,
you have safer alternatives.
And then we have to clean them up because maybe in everyday products,
the concentration of PFAS is not that high.
So it wouldn't be that dangerous to eat a pizza once,
you know.
But the thing is that they accumulate.
So we have to find solutions of how to clean them because they spread in our air,
they spread in our soils,
they are in our water,
in the groundwater as well,
they are in our oceans.
So they're everywhere and we need to find a way to clean them up,
collect them and destroy them,
which is not an easy task.
Okay,
wow.
I have so many questions already about everything you just said.
First of all,
It's pretty enraging,
right,
that we've allowed for these really harmful chemicals to spread everywhere in our ecosystems,
in our food,
in our bodies.
And
I guess my first question is,
if we know and it's been scientifically proven that these chemicals are so bad for our health,
for the environment,
how come they're still allowed?
How come it's still legal to use them?
Well,
scientists are still calculating the healthcare outcomes.
There's been quite some research,
actually,
that's spread out for years,
but it was kind of under the ground.
And the same question of how it's illegal,
we can ask to a lot of aspects of our life all around us.
It's for the fact that maybe,
you know,
our economy is directed in a way that it's more to create wealth and money rather than to look into all the...
externalities,
right?
We used to think of isolated problems and isolated solutions.
So we need a product that will make things non-stick and water resistant,
fine,
we'll create a chemical.
But then we didn't think what would be the outcomes of that chemical in the environment.
It's faster to put a chemical in the market than to take it out of the market.
And that's maybe part of the problem.
We need to start thinking differently.
We need to start thinking like nature in a complex way.
where whatever we do,
we see what are the outcomes.
And fine,
we made a mistake,
we had a useful product,
but now is really the time to start fixing it on every front for the regulators to put regulations in place for the companies that are producing or using them to switch to safer alternatives and for the new industry to
create solutions to clean it up.
It's still an industry in its infancy,
and there are some better solutions for the water cleanup.
For the soil cleanup,
there is not much,
unfortunately,
and that's where we're making very big investments.
But there's a whole lot of work that we need to do,
and
I understand that we can focus on the part,
how is that still legal?
I don't know.
There are companies and organizations like ChemSec,
for example,
that is really into working with the regulators to...
to ban the dangerous ones,
but also working with businesses to switch to safer alternatives.
What we are about is a positive story of action.
We screwed up as a society.
Now let's find ways how to fix that.
And let's work together through radical collaborations to find solutions for that.
Yeah,
I think I understand.
So there's two key aspects to this.
One is turning off the tap,
trying to avoid continuing to add more.
harmful chemicals into the environment.
And the other aspect is cleaning up the chemicals that are already present in the ecosystems.
And that's the part that you're focusing on mainly with EarthPlus.
Is that correct?
Yes.
I mean,
look at it as the ocean cleanup,
right?
You need to find safer alternatives and better alternatives to plastics in the circular systems.
And at the same time,
you need to stop the flood of the plastic.
So it's the same here.
Organizations like ChemSec are focusing on closing the tap.
which is extremely important priority number one and we are focusing on cleaning up what's already polluted so these chemicals don't end up in our food and in our bodies okay just to stay on the closing the tap part of the equation for just a second yeah are there any interesting developments in policy
making on the eu level or maybe on the national level when it comes to restricting these forever chemicals from being used
There is.
So there is a proposal on the EU level to ban the most dangerous chemicals.
The question is,
what's that going to end up like?
Are they really going to forbid the majority of the dangerous ones or are they only going to focus on a small percentage?
And there are a lot of different forces at play here,
a lot of different lobby groups as well that are lobbying for different kinds of decisions.
And we have to see where the regulation ends up.
But the European Commission even posted about forever chemicals in that proposal recently.
And I really,
really do hope that they are not going to water it down and that they are going to put a stand and they are going to say,
no,
we have to invest in
R&D and innovation,
safe alternatives,
switch into better ways to make products.
Okay,
I see.
Yeah.
We need people to be more aware also of this problematic,
because usually when the public eye is really looking at something that puts more pressure on regulations to go that way,
if they can just operate in the darkness without anyone knowing,
then usually things don't really move forward.
So I hope this conversation can contribute to that.
For sure,
because these chemicals are also invisible.
So how do we know if soil is contaminated?
How do we know if these chemicals are in our food,
for example?
we concede unless there is certain research and visualize and we make public awareness.
And I think that's why
Belgium is one of the epicenters,
because there was this government scandal and because people start to know about it.
And also the US is also coming up on forever chemicals in the agenda.
There is this dark waters documentary that was filmed.
There is a lot of action going on in the US as well and to dive deeper into that and see what to do with it.
But indeed,
the more public knows about it...
this is happening and they can also see alternatives and switch maybe to safer products the better because then there would be stimulus for governments and for companies to take action faster okay so moving on from closing the tap to
cleaning up the mess cleaning up the pollution what are the interesting innovations and solutions that you've explored in in this area you
So I'll start with the first pilot that Frederik and Sophie conducted,
and then I'll share a bit more about what's the current status now of the research.
So in that first pilot,
they went for a crop called industrial hemp because it was used to clean Fukushima and Chernobyl,
and it's really known for its phytoremediation properties.
Phytoremediation is,
yeah,
when you remediate soil,
when you clean it up with the power of plants.
So they planted industrial hemp on a farming land right across of 3M.
The fact that I say farming land should ring a bell for you because that pollution ends up in our food because of soil contamination and also because forever chemicals are in pesticides.
So we also literally spray them on our food.
And if someone is interested,
they can dive into research of pesticide action network in Europe or in the UK where they're really testing different fruits and vegetables for the remnants of the PFAS pesticides.
So they went on that farming land,
they planted industrial hemp.
And what they noticed is that hemp acted like huge pumps.
So any plant would pick up forever chemicals from soils,
but in the smaller concentrations.
And because hemp grows incredibly fast to four meters in just four months,
it acts like a huge pump.
So it has roots up to one meter.
It can extract these chemicals.
even the harder ones,
the most stable ones that thought to be impossible,
it picked up.
And then it transported it through the roots,
through the stems,
into the leaves of the plant.
So there were no traces found in the pollen,
which was important to make sure the bees are safe.
And there were no traces found in the stems.
So leaves were the most contaminated part of the plant,
which also refers a bit to the human body because we also have organs that filter out the pollution.
It's kind of the same in the plant.
And then they split up the plants,
they took the leaves,
they treated them at high temperatures,
and they used the stems to make circular bio-based construction materials,
the business model that
I mentioned before.
And that's how it started with that project.
It was,
and it is still not a magic pill,
you cannot clean decades,
60 years of forever chemical pollution in one crop,
depending on the contamination.
It can take a few years,
can take decades,
and we are focusing on mid-low contaminated areas because those are really feasible with phytoremediation.
Now there are more projects that are being conducted and actually our PFAS projects are coordinated by former PFAS responsible of the city of Antwerp,
Eric de Bran,
and it's a lot more complex now.
So for example,
we have a project at Campus Vesta,
which is an emergency services training ground,
and they've been using
a PFAS in the training exercises.
It's not the case anymore.
It's been stopped years ago,
but the pollution is still there.
So what is being done there is there are willow trees that are planted to suck contamination from the groundwater.
And that's actually the drawback of the current solution.
Currently,
the excavation part is
almost 800 000 euro per hectare and what is done is there are a lot of trucks that are coming in taking the ground and putting it into a special landfill there is no certain capacity to excavate everything in the landfill it emits a lot of co2 and then in winter when
ground water table goes up with the rain the groundwater brings back that pollution
So it's not really a solution.
That's why there are willow trees planted to suck out contamination from the groundwater.
There is also hemp to suck contamination from the soil.
And there,
Eric and the team are using a lot of natural additives in the soil as well to test what will speed up the pickup of the pollution.
And actually,
intermediate results show that we can already speed it up in comparison to the initial pilot.
quite significantly,
but we are waiting for the official test to release that information.
And then the process is going to be repeated for a few years.
Now,
hemp has been harvested already,
and the leaves of the willow trees have been harvested as well.
And next year,
willow trees will continue growing,
cleaning the groundwater,
and new hemp will be planted with the best bio-additives in the soil to continue cleaning it up as well.
Okay,
so you're trying to
to take out these chemicals from the soil by using nature-based solutions.
In this case,
willows to get really deep into the groundwater and hemp.
And then you just harvest the leaves of the tree and the leaves of the hemp in which the chemicals are.
have arrived,
like have concentrated.
Then you process these to get rid of the chemicals.
Do you manage to break them down or you just lock them away somewhere?
So in this case,
we harvest the full hemp and we harvest the leaves of the willow trees.
And now we have a higher concentration of PFAS than is spread out in the soil.
And currently we are testing a couple of scenarios.
on sending them through different processes of where we can make sure the temperatures are high enough to get rid of PFAS.
And I'll be able to share more information in a few months once those pilots are complete.
Yeah,
so those pilots,
so what you're saying here is that you're trying to test different ways of growing these plants with different additives,
different methods to see which ones are the most efficient at soaking up that chemicals.
We're still really early in the innovation process in this very new field.
We're quite early,
but we know for sure that it works.
We've already managed to speed up the process quite significantly.
So it cleans up.
And then now we are testing the destruction pathways,
which are also based on already existing scientific research.
So yes,
we're early days,
but we already know it works.
And there is nobody else providing better solutions.
So we have to keep innovating.
We have to speed up the process.
And there are so many mid-low contaminated areas everywhere.
I think we have...
a lot of work to do so um another part of this whole operation is harvesting the hemp and and using it to make bio-based materials i think that's what you said earlier yeah could you tell us some more about that uh yes of course so maybe first let me clarify um there
are three types of lands that we are working on it all started with pephas but it kind of grew bigger so you
You have the polluted lands,
whether it's PFAS or other types of contamination and different combination of nature-based solutions to clean it up.
We have a farming land and most of our farming land is degraded,
52%.
In Belgium,
it's 60-70%.
And it will be 90% by 2050 if we don't do anything.
So here we work on clean land with farmers through rotation crops.
And then there is a third type of land,
which is deserted land,
where we are starting projects now in the south of Spain.
to revive that land also with a combination of nature-based solutions and hemp for a business model on it to kind of push the deserts back and revive that land.
Now we mainly focus on materials production from clean lands.
That would mean agricultural land or deserted land.
In certain cases if it's a large project we can also split up the polluted parts as I explained and the leaves and use the stems of the materials on the contaminated land.
But I want to clarify that never ever are we using contaminated plant parts to make construction materials.
There is no sense to move the problem elsewhere.
And we are only using,
in case of polluted land,
scientifically tested materials to make sure that there is no contamination in them.
I want to be 100% clear on that.
And then indeed,
hemp is one of the strongest natural fibers in the world.
And actually,
we used to use it a lot we owe our wealth in flanders as well to hemp because it was grown everywhere for construction for ship sales for clothes as well for paper um it was also used in the food industry and there is a special un report as well calling hemp superfood um so you can try hemp oil or hemp proteins for example hemp seeds um
even you know uh
We used to be able to cross the seas because of the sails made out of hemp.
Henry Ford made a car out of hemp,
biocomposite running on the hemp fuel.
So it was really,
really widespread.
And there is a vast amount of materials that you can make out of it because it grows really fast.
Imagine a tree takes
15, 20 years to get a certain amount of biomass.
Hemp grows to four meters in just four months.
So you have a lot of biomass to process.
There are certain materials that we are focusing on,
mainly Frederick with the C-Biotech,
the physical process.
And they are quite innovative.
I really love them.
So one of those materials is,
for example,
a sandwich panel.
A sandwich panel is a modular element that you can use in different types of construction,
like warehouses or residential buildings.
Normally,
one of the typical ones on the outside is made out of wood,
and on the inside out of fossil fuel-based insulation.
So even now with the retrofitting wave,
we're insulating our houses with fossil fuel-based insulation.
Kind of goes against the point of cutting down the emissions a bit.
What we're focusing on is hemp wood on the outside instead of normal wood.
And this way we can save 5,000 to 1,000 trees per hectare per year because we don't need to cut them.
It's also stronger than wood because it's one of the strongest natural fibers and it's fully circular.
So at the end of life,
you can either repurpose it or chop it and make exactly the same hemp wood.
And then on the inside,
it's hemp fibers which are cut and then mycelium spores that are mixed in them and it grows in seven days.
So it's really mycelium-based insulation,
which is like a...
Mycelium is a root-alike network of fungi.
So you have mushrooms as a top,
as a fruit and you have mycelium below the ground.
So that's what we are focusing on.
We're using hemp fibers to feed the mycelium spores to grow that insulation in seven days.
So imagine we used to extract fossil fuels,
transport them,
send them through complex manufacturing processes so that we can insulate our homes and now we can grow it locally in seven days.
The beauty also of that material like a sandwich panel is that typically construction materials emit a lot of CO2.
So construction is one of the largest polluters,
almost 40% of our emissions and 30% of waste globally.
But with this type of materials,
actually,
because hemp grows fast and uses a lot of CO2 to grow,
there is a lot of
CO2 that is stored in the biomass.
And the end result of making that sandwich panel is that it actually stores CO2 inside.
It's carbon negative.
So this way we can also turn construction from a huge carbon emitter into a huge carbon sink.
So that's one example of material.
the sandwich panel.
So if I understand the full story here,
it's really amazing,
right?
You're growing hemp on degraded soil and hemp is known to be really good for soil health.
It has this really long,
deep tap roots that are great at breaking up compaction and it's great for soil structure,
for moisture,
for fertility,
for so many things.
And that makes it such a great addition to a farming rotation.
And then you're harvesting that hemp to make these really cool bio-based materials that are that offer a great alternative to potentially much more harmful materials.
And finally,
hemp is great at sequestering carbon,
so in the soil and also in its biomass.
And so when you're making these materials,
that carbon is being captured in these building materials,
right?
So first of all,
it's a great point that you made with rotation crops,
because that's how we work with farmers.
Imagine in Belgium,
we all love potatoes and
Belgian fries.
I'm not going to call them French or,
you know,
stomp and all kinds of different potato variations.
But farmers can grow potatoes only once in four or five years because potatoes suck all the nutrients out of soil.
And in between,
you need to plant other crops.
And hemp can be a perfect...
other crop like that because it indeed increases soil biodiversity and helps restore soils and there have been even scientific studies that if you use hemp as a rotation crop you can bring the yields up of the main crop by at least 5 to 15 percent so potato
farmers are better off because they have more potatoes we are better off because our potatoes are more nutritious and in the meantime we use hemp to make materials for better buildings that actually remove carbon and store it
So depending on the material,
we are at different stages of industrialization process.
Some materials,
and I'll give you an example just in a little bit,
because it's a really cool game changer as well.
Some are ready to go and can plug in into existing processes.
And for some materials,
we're currently repurposing the facilities because we are not building new factories to produce it.
We find partners to collaborate and repurpose existing facilities.
Those will require from a few months up to a year,
maybe to put really into them.
an industrial process and we already have offtake agreements with partners in place to use these materials as well.
Okay cool cool staying on the on the farmer's side of the story a little bit actually so when you're sort of picking land where you're going to grow that hemp first of all how do you choose it do you identify
places that are heavily polluted or degraded and then you contact the landowners or is that the other way around how does that work?
So for polluted places,
it's through connections where we know there is pollution.
As I mentioned,
our PFAS project coordinator is a former PFAS responsible of the city of Antwerp.
So we are starting to get to know a lot of...
land owners that have polluted grounds.
And that's how we get projects.
Now we start getting,
reaching out as well,
also from other countries to help them with our projects as well.
And it's kind of becoming a magnet,
right?
Because we're doing something really innovative.
When it comes to working on rotation crops with farmers,
we reach out to farmers directly.
It's a very straightforward contract.
We pay them for growing the crop on a rotation basis.
And we provide the seeds.
We help provide education and other materials.
And then we harvest the crop and we make materials out of them.
And for deserted lands,
we are now starting a very exciting project in south of Spain,
in Murcia,
with a regenerative farmer,
Alfonso,
who is dreaming to restore 30,000 hectares of land and bring the river back.
Because everything is dried out because of intensive,
water-intensive agriculture.
And we are collaborating together with him now to,
you know,
with the different...
Actually,
in that region,
they used to grow hemp for 11 generations for Spanish Armada.
And they even still have a hemp factory that was closed in 1938.
So now we are collaborating together with him to bring different combination of nature-based solutions,
including hemp,
to restore that land.
And we are discussing with partners also new projects around the globe for that.
I can't reveal that partnership yet because it has not been announced.
But...
Yeah,
there are a lot of lands that need attention and depending on the type of project,
it's a different way to get in touch with those landowners.
I know there are quite a few farmers listening to this podcast and I would love it if they could leave us with some practical information today.
So typically farmers have a set crop rotation plant and if they were to start growing hemp,
they would have to replace one of the crops from the rotation with the hemp.
So...
I was wondering how it compares usually financially for the farmer to replace that crop with hemp.
Of course,
we have a special team focusing on working together with farmers.
So happy to forward and introduce any potential inquiries for more detailed information.
I'll give you an overview though.
So
I don't...
expect farmers to transition to a sustainable agricultural by themselves.
It's impossible,
right?
Farmers are struggling enough.
We need to make sure that they're paid enough to grow other crops.
So in terms of a contract,
let's say it's not as much as they would earn for the main crop of the year once in five years like potatoes.
But it's very interesting in comparison to other rotation crops,
because we know that farmers mainly take a decision on return on investment right now.
And we want to make sure that they are getting good returns on growing regenerative crops as well.
Let me just take a really short break from this conversation to tell you about the partner of this podcast,
Soil Capital.
Soil Capital is a company that helps to transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve the health of their soils.
They're a really cool company.
I love what they're doing and I'm super proud to be partnering with them for the deep sea.
podcast if you're interested in learning more i will leave a link in the description of this episode so you mentioned earlier in the conversation that you're making different types of materials using hemp and i was wondering what what
kind of materials are we talking about here so i'll give you a second example otherwise we would probably spend a whole day talking about different materials but i want to share about the second one which is really exciting and that's hemp biocomposite so biocomposite is actually
normally fossil fuel based,
it's made out of plastic and it's also all around us.
So it can be in laptops,
for example,
in a lot of different applications.
The material that we are launching is bio-based,
based out of hemp as well.
And what you get as a result is bio-based biocomposite pellets that you can plug in into existing manufacturing process.
And instead of
producing plastic,
you produce a bio-based alternative.
So nothing needs to be changed in terms of molds,
in terms of production processes,
but the input that you have is not fossil fuel-based,
it's bio-based.
And we are really super excited about it because we ran different pilots.
We did really difficult molds and it really looks like plastic,
but it's bio-based.
The first project that we launch is going to be together with Traffic Road for traffic poles,
non-barring traffic poles in cities.
But there are a lot of different applications that you can have for that.
And it's also a game changer,
helping us move away from fossil fuel based materials to bio based materials.
So I really wanted to mention that one as well,
because we're super excited for the upcoming launch.
Sounds incredible.
I mean,
it's so many benefits to using hemp.
And you said that we were already using hemp for a lot of things back in the days.
Why did we drop it?
My colleagues call it world's first fake news.
So around 1937,
if I'm not mistaken,
there was a user,
a US businessman that invested into paper production from wood.
So previously paper was made out of hemp.
He invested into paper made out of wood and he had connections with the governments and with the newspapers and they tied hemp to marijuana.
They're in the same family,
but hemp doesn't contain THC.
So you need to smoke approximately six hectares,
which is around 60 tons to fill something of industrial hemp.
But they tied it to Marijuana anyway.
And that's when the wave of ban of hemp happened all around the world.
And now it's making a comeback.
So now it's in the EU Green Deal for revolutionizing construction,
but also working together with the agricultural sector.
It's also in the UN Special Report for construction,
circular materials,
and also superfood.
So it's making a comeback around the world.
And that's why,
for example,
When I mentioned that regenerative Spanish farmer Alfonso,
that's why they still have that factory to split hemp fibers and sheaves that has been closed in around 1938 and never reopened because of that ban.
But it's actually a wonderful crop that can be used for so many things that
I'm really happy to hear that it's having a comeback.
And sometimes we still have to struggle against negative perceptions or certain regulations.
But overall,
there is a huge support now coming up and a lot of material innovations that are made out of hemp.
I mean,
that's such a mind-blowing story.
How were we able to go against science and against the whole established industry that was a huge part of our lives and our economy and completely drop it and dismantle it in favor of an alternative?
But that story also...
gives me hope in the sense that it shows that we can do that we we're capable of completely transitioning to a different mode of action a different source material a different way of doing things quite radically if we really choose to do so for
sure i mean the longer i work in sustainability space the more questions like that i have like how did we manage to do this or how did we manage to do that and why is it normal in our world
But indeed,
that means that we can completely switch and we can learn from that story and turn it into a positive story of action.
The way how we are doing that is to make sure that we cover the whole chain.
That's why we work together with farmers.
That's why we also work together with production companies,
material production companies.
That's why we work together also with construction companies.
for the material offtake.
That's why we also have the technology platform on top to trace it and get carbon credits because you can't just switch to hemp in one day.
A farmer can grow it,
but then who is he going to sell it to?
You need an offtake of that and you need to bring those different industries together in radical collaboration to establish the whole chain.
Otherwise,
it's just not going to work.
But we are not here for simple solutions that help switch like that.
We are here for systemic change and are really
love the way that how holistic that solution is because it makes soils better it makes construction better it removes carbon and stocks it in buildings it also creates local jobs so we don't need to transport materials from one part of the world to another and that's what gets me really excited because we can make a lot of different things better at the same time yeah yeah very exciting yeah when
there's these kind of really promising solutions and we want them to scale we there's different ways to go about it right and
One important way,
I think,
is policy.
Because obviously if we make the harmful practice or product illegal or much more difficult to produce,
then it gives an advantage to the alternative.
Do you see that happening?
There is one that is...
you know,
restriction of harmful materials.
And we could see that in chemicals,
but we could also see that in fossil fuel-based materials because they're not that healthy always in buildings.
So let's say banning is one part of the policy change.
And we see that slowly starting to take pace.
But another part of policy change is subsidies.
Currently,
subsidies are still stimulating fossil fuel-based retrofitting.
of our buildings and they should stimulate biobased alternatives instead if you really want to transition.
And that's where we still need to make that change and educate the regulators and still work together with them to make sure that they support the right thing.
Yeah,
okay.
If we compare today the biobased materials you're making from hemp with the existing alternatives,
how does it compare in terms of performance but also in price?
Is it an attractive product on the market today already?
It's very difficult to compare directly biobased materials with traditional materials because they have different properties.
So yes,
you have certain values that you have to have.
But it's not always as easy as substituting one apple with the other.
Like there are advantages and disadvantages that you need to work on.
So for example,
if you look at the sandwich panel,
to get to the same properties,
it needs to be a bit thicker.
So it takes away the space.
But on the other hand,
it's fully bio-based,
it's circular,
it's safer to breathe.
It removes carbon from the atmosphere.
And it actually has better...
heat capacity meaning especially with heat waves we need 10 less costs to cool our buildings which the fossil fuel based insulation doesn't have so it's not always you know having exactly the same product just substituting one another and that's maybe a little bit of a challenge to hyperscale these bio-based materials um what
we are trying to do is to make sure that it's a no-brainer choice um so when you switch one for the other it's not just having a
good properties for a building and being more sustainable.
But also we are trying to bring it on the similar price level so that it's easier for companies to switch because some companies are non-sensitive to price,
but some companies are really are.
And for construction to really pick up on those materials,
we need to make sure that the the price is more or less similar so that the market can pick it up and make sure that it's a no brainer choice.
And we are working towards that.
Okay.
Yeah.
And there's another aspect of all of this we kind of skipped over.
It's the carbon sequestration.
You said that hemp is great at sequestering carbon.
Can you give me more detail about this?
So there are different ways to sequester carbon,
right?
There is a way to sequester carbon in soils through regenerative agriculture.
And that's one way.
What we are focusing on in sequestration in biobased materials and biochar.
So that's the biomass of hemp that we are using.
And let's take a concrete example.
So we plant a hectare of hemp,
and in the biomass,
there is 9 to 15 tons of CO2 that is sequestered in the crop.
Then we harvest that crop,
we transport it,
we produce a product,
we put it in a building,
and throughout those steps,
we emit CO2 in the process,
but there is still net removal of CO2 that is left.
And that net removal is stuck in a building.
And the idea is to...
either keep it there for at least 100 years or to keep it for 50,
60 years and then repurpose that material and put it in a new building for the same timeline so that we can remove carbon from atmosphere for longer.
And that's how it works.
And the different material is biochar,
for example,
you also can take biomass,
hemp or another type of biomass,
send it through a pyrolysis process,
which is basically burning it without without oxygen,
and it becomes coal.
sort of coal,
but not the coal that you extract from the ground,
but made from a biomass.
And if you mix biochar in the soil,
for example,
or use it in construction,
it keeps carbon for at least 2000 years.
And in case of soils,
it's also really great to regenerate soils because it attracts moisture and nutrients into the soil.
And that's another way to remove carbon as well through plant biomass.
And these are kind of the two main ways specifically we are focusing on.
and we are collaborating with other partners on other carbon sequestration through nature-based solutions inside our projects as well.
Yeah.
Does that bring an extra financial incentive then to the whole operation because there's a price to carbon nowadays,
the voluntary carbon market is also the official European market.
Does that weigh into your equation?
For sure.
I mean,
we need
to generate more revenues,
to be able to scale the impact and regeneration.
And carbon credits is not an end goal,
but it's a means to an end.
It's one of the instruments that we are using to be able to regenerate more soils.
And we are currently in the process of going through certification of the first carbon credits.
And that's why we have the EarthPlus platform that we're building together with Delaware and Microsoft.
to trace every project from field to final product so that it's not just a carbon credit that you don't know anything about but it's a super transparent one where as a customer you can log in anytime know what's the status of that project see what's exactly being done into which material it was turned into what's the exact life cycle analysis of that material in which building it was placed so that you have 100 transparency about what's happening to that carbon
And because voluntary carbon market is a bit volatile,
right?
There have been some greenwashing scandals.
We want to make sure that we are triple A on that sense.
all our customers can be sure that they're investing in the real thing.
So that's one of the technology processes we are working on for the transparency.
So
I guess I've been asking all of these questions about the different parts of the operation,
because I'm trying to piece the puzzle together in my head.
And
I really love it.
I love that it makes sense from an environmental perspective,
because you're generating degraded land and cleaning up polluted soils.
It makes sense from a climate perspective as well because you're sequestering carbon in the soils but also in the materials that you're making out of hemp.
It makes sense for the farmers.
We didn't really...
go deep into the numbers here but from what you're telling me you're really trying to make sure that the transaction is beneficial for farmers and i think this is something that's absolutely crucial and finally the the business model makes sense for you as well and obviously that's something that's really important if you want a solution to scale so
Did I miss anything?
I mean,
the idea is that we have a big cake and we can share with everyone,
right?
We can share with farmers to reward them for growing the crop.
And so restoration is a side benefit of that,
but they are rewarded for their work and providing the biomass.
It's a benefit for the partners that are producing the materials.
It's a benefit for the customers because they have sustainable alternatives that are a no-brainer to switch.
Of course,
it's a benefit for us because we are a regenerative business and we need to make money to be able to run more projects.
So it has to be a benefit for everyone.
And then it's a benefit for companies that are buying carbon credits because they're buying transparent ones.
And believe me,
it's not an easy job to build a regenerative business all the way through because that's not how we've done things before.
We had business as usual,
right?
It was damaging and not taking into account nature.
We were slowly transitioning to sustainable business,
which was like less harm or no harm.
And now we're transitioning into regenerative business that actually does this win,
win,
win across every partner.
So it's not an easy model to put in place,
but I think we are really getting there.
And that's what really,
really makes me exciting that,
you know,
as a business,
you have a way to exist,
but also to make the world better.
And then in terms of hyperscaling the solutions,
I mentioned that we need to bring you.
this radical collaboration together.
So we have to start looking at things differently,
not just a bunch of players competing with each other,
but actually a bunch of players from different industries working together with each other to put that solution in place.
But a second thing of how we are doing is that we're also not shipping a bunch of Belgians everywhere to kind of open new offices and hyperscale the model,
but rather find local partners in the other markets where we can transfer our expertise and knowledge and help them set up.
a similar business case,
and then trace all those projects with the same technology platform to generate carbon credits,
nature investments,
transparent reporting,
etc.
So that's kind of our second approach to hyperscaling,
that is really working with local partners in different markets to make it work.
And in my opinion,
it's much better because you also don't need to start from scratch everywhere.
You already have really knowledgeable people and companies that can do the job.
Yeah,
makes sense.
If we can just talk numbers a little bit,
what is your objective and what kind of metrics,
what kind of KPIs are you looking at and where do you hope to get in the next 10-20 years?
So our big mission is to create the largest soil and sewage to clean up with nature.
That's a very,
very big ambitious goal and I don't know how many years it will take us to get there.
I really want to see regeneration in projects like that happening all around the world.
If you look in terms of shorter milestones,
we have a milestone to launch our technology platform beginning of next year.
We have a...
Sorry,
what's a technology platform?
So this,
the EarthPlus technology platform with Microsoft and Delaware,
where you can trace every project from field to final product,
where you have carbon credits,
where you can...
I have satellite imagery knowing what's going on in the field.
So like a lot of different technology pieces coming together for transparency,
carbon credits and ESG reporting.
So if I buy some of these panels in the future,
I should be able to scan the code somewhere and see exactly the whole story behind that panel and what happened there?
Well,
as the customers that are using the panel and the offtake agreements,
definitely they can go in and see the whole story.
As customers that are buying the carbon credit,
which could be the same,
but could be different.
they can go and see the whole story as well um there will be also some philanthropic projects on there as well so people could contribute and nature land nature investments that we are going to launch as well um which i can't yet give you more information but it's coming soon and
as an investor you'll also be able to see the whole picture of what's happening so that's the milestone for beginning of next year we also have milestones to
start projects with local partners in quite a few big markets.
So that is all going on for the beginning of next year as well.
And the big milestone is also this restoration project in Spain that we are working on together with Alfonso,
because for us that would be really an amazing proof of concept that we can actually push the deserts back and we can restore soils.
Because as I mentioned before,
and I'm sure you've heard it a lot on your podcast that by 2050,
90% of our soils are going to be degraded.
So we need to act now to turn that back.
And like everybody on our team is really passionate about pushing the deserts back.
And that's why we're also really,
really excited about that project and the milestone to have everything in place and everything launched and to connect other farmers and other land owners around the region to restore that land as well.
Are you looking for more farmers to collaborate with at the moment?
I mean,
yes,
of course,
we are looking for farmers depends on the region and on the country at the moment.
And,
and yet,
we always work directly with farmers.
So yeah,
Okay,
sweet.
So if there are farmers listening who are interested,
they can get in touch,
right?
They can get in touch,
I'll put them in touch with our team.
And we see if it's a go for that certain region or not yet.
But
We're always open to have a conversation to see how we would collaborate together.
Awesome conversation so far.
I really love it.
Thank you so much.
Unfortunately,
time is running out and I'm going to have to start moving towards the end of the conversation.
But always keep some of the best for last,
some of the fun or hopeful questions for the end.
Okay.
Yeah.
And the next one is going to be,
are you hopeful about the future?
Of course I'm hopeful.
I mean,
we have no other choice.
We can sit in the corner and think that everything is lost and that's it.
Or we can hope and we can act.
And
I choose the second path.
Also because I'm surrounded by a lot of people that are actually really doers.
That's what I love about our team and our partners.
That you don't have time to kind of reminisce and think about what if.
all your energy goes towards the solutions and really exciting solutions.
And the more you get into sustainability and impact entrepreneurship space,
the more hopeful you become because of that vast range of solutions that is out there.
So I think we have no privilege to be non-hopeful.
We have to be hopeful and we have to act.
And that's a much better side to be on.
Yeah,
that's something that keeps coming back over and over.
A lot of people become...
eco-anxious.
And rightly so.
And I've been there and I'm sure you must have experienced that as well.
We start really learning about climate,
about the environment.
You start reading,
I won't say the IPCC reports,
but like summaries of the IPCC reports and you start feeling very,
very depressed about the state of the world.
But then everyone I've met who's actively working on solutions actually is much less anxious and much more hopeful.
And so to anyone listening,
if you feel that despair or,
you know,
that kind of energy over you,
the best thing to do is to get out there,
look at the solutions that you find the most exciting,
the most promising and just be a part of it.
Like we need more people.
So,
yeah.
100%.
And,
okay,
it's not an easy space to work in because you anyway come across news or graphs that are really scary,
right?
So at some point it is hard.
Yeah,
the best thing is action.
But also another thing that I found really cool from a CEO and founder of Oxygen
Conservation in the UK.
I think at some point you should have him on your podcast.
His name is Rich Stockdale.
And they also bring a business model to land restoration and regeneration with nature-based solutions,
including partially with regenerative farming.
And he actually has a psychologist on his team,
he told me,
because...
It seems spends a lot of time in nature already,
which is good for mental health.
They spend a lot of time on project,
but sometimes it's still really hard in the space.
And
I think that's a really cool way to support people to be in a better space to make impact.
Because no,
it's not all roses working in climate.
It is very helpful and we need to support each other to kind of grow towards that hope and action.
Awesome.
Very last question,
and that's a tradition on this podcast is,
if you could organize a dinner party and invite any three people from present time or from history,
who would you invite?
Why?
And what would you cook for them?
Hmm,
now you're making me want to,
you know,
go back to all your episodes and listen to what other people said.
I would invite...
Liu Spiu,
who is the
UN patron of the oceans,
is the guy who swims in the coldest places in the world,
like the Antarctica,
the North Pole,
Greenland,
in only speedos.
And he attracts attention of policymakers to the fact that there should be ice there,
but it's melting.
And then he negotiates for the creation of marine protected zones.
I saw him once at an event.
He's a real inspiration.
And I always knew I wanted to do something as big as him.
I knew I would.
suck at swimming in the cold water.
But
I wanted to have the same global ambition and
I do it now thanks to his inspiration.
The second person I would invite would be
Boyan Slat,
the founder of the Ocean Cleanup.
Once again,
his global vision inspired our global vision.
And thanks to the ambition of the Ocean Cleanup,
we now have a similar ambition on land.
And that really makes me excited every single day about what we are doing.
And the third person that I would invite wouldn't be from the climate space.
It would be Stephen Bartlett from the Diary of a CEO,
because I really enjoy his podcast.
I really enjoy his approach.
And I'd love to meet him one day.
So that would be my third dinner guest.
I would actually not cook for them.
I would ask my husband to cook for them because he's a much better cook than me.
Lucky me.
And I will ask him to cook dishes from their countries,
traditional dishes,
because my husband really likes international cuisine and different dishes.
So I'll ask him to cook a dish from each of their countries so that they could share at the dinner table,
we all could share at the dinner table,
and discuss not just projects and work,
but also interconnections between cultures and try different cuisines.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Stephen Barlett is probably one of my main influences for the Deep Seed podcast and also podcast I find very,
very good,
very interesting.
He's very impressive character as well.
And maybe that's one of the reasons I decided to start the Deep Seed is because I listen to podcasts like his quality of it.
But he's never really talking about the climate or the environment.
It's a lot about personal health,
about society and things like that.
And I thought we need someone who's doing
that on that level,
but talking about climate solutions.
I'm still a long way from his level,
but you know,
that's,
that's sort of.
You'll get there.
I really believe in you.
And
I do think it's a pity that Steven never mentions it.
I even sent him a message once about it,
but I'm sure he's bombarded every day,
but I'm happy that there are people like you that are really focusing on hope and the positive action and,
and talking to a lot of impact entrepreneurs and,
um,
and other people in the space that are.
doing something really actionable.
And I'm sure you'll get there.
I'll make sure to support your podcast.
Thank you.
You already did by spending this time with me and having this conversation.
Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you,
Rafa.