WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.884 --> 00:00:04.084 Hello! 2 00:00:04.725 --> 00:00:06.085 Passionate about sustainability, 3 00:00:06.226 --> 00:00:07.107 energy and climate? 4 00:00:07.667 --> 00:00:08.550 You're in the right place. 5 00:00:08.890 --> 00:00:09.949 Welcome to Energetic. 6 00:00:10.531 --> 00:00:18.460 I'm Maureen Cornelis and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen. 7 00:00:19.179 --> 00:00:20.382 They may be activists, 8 00:00:20.585 --> 00:00:21.226 scientists, 9 00:00:21.585 --> 00:00:24.757 policy makers or other enthusiasts just like you. 10 00:00:25.507 --> 00:00:31.570 Let their life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet. 11 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:37.621 So today we welcome on the show William Brandt, 12 00:00:37.881 --> 00:00:41.163 who is a climate solution advocate and entrepreneur. 13 00:00:41.842 --> 00:00:44.264 He's the CMO of Hesk Power Systems, 14 00:00:44.444 --> 00:00:48.303 where he helps lead one of the world's top community solar companies, 15 00:00:48.522 --> 00:00:52.444 named among Fast Company's Most Innovative Companies of 2024. 16 00:00:53.006 --> 00:00:54.147 And before that, 17 00:00:54.225 --> 00:00:55.631 he co-founded Power for All, 18 00:00:55.819 --> 00:00:58.225 an NGO focused on ending energy poverty, 19 00:00:58.772 --> 00:01:01.491 and led the clean tech practice at Weber Schoenweg, 20 00:01:01.631 --> 00:01:03.022 a global marketing agency. 21 00:01:03.756 --> 00:01:04.096 William, 22 00:01:04.377 --> 00:01:05.157 welcome to the show. 23 00:01:05.377 --> 00:01:06.699 I'm delighted to have you here. 24 00:01:07.520 --> 00:01:08.442 Thank you so much. 25 00:01:08.461 --> 00:01:09.121 It's great to be here. 26 00:01:09.742 --> 00:01:10.301 Thank you so much. 27 00:01:10.422 --> 00:01:10.781 William, 28 00:01:11.063 --> 00:01:14.543 you've had quite a diverse career in the energy space, 29 00:01:15.051 --> 00:01:18.910 from co-founding PowerFall to leading marketing at Aspire Systems. 30 00:01:19.371 --> 00:01:24.676 So what drew you first to work on energy justice, 31 00:01:24.723 --> 00:01:27.364 this kind of systemic inequities we see in the energy sector, 32 00:01:27.817 --> 00:01:30.739 and how has your perspective evolved over time? 33 00:01:31.629 --> 00:01:33.020 So I think originally my... 34 00:01:33.548 --> 00:01:41.556 inspiration for getting involved in climate and climate solutions was sparked by my time in China. 35 00:01:42.236 --> 00:01:54.986 I lived in China for 15 years during a period where the country was essentially going from a very undeveloped economy coming out of the Cultural Revolution to the time I left when it had already been started to boom, 36 00:01:55.064 --> 00:02:00.377 where private industry was being encouraged after decades of state control. 37 00:02:01.033 --> 00:02:03.017 And that was an exciting backdrop. 38 00:02:03.576 --> 00:02:03.877 for my 39 00:02:04.357 --> 00:02:09.122 20s to be a witness to that incredible transformation that started in the early 40 00:02:09.602 --> 00:02:10.805 90s, early mid-90s. 41 00:02:11.587 --> 00:02:17.493 But it also made me realize that the limits of the traditional model for development, 42 00:02:17.610 --> 00:02:18.571 economic development, 43 00:02:19.227 --> 00:02:21.790 especially as the question of climate change, 44 00:02:21.868 --> 00:02:22.633 global warming, 45 00:02:22.852 --> 00:02:25.852 started to really come to the forefront of the global discussion. 46 00:02:26.555 --> 00:02:27.837 It was pretty clear to me that 47 00:02:28.160 --> 00:02:34.947 despite the excitement and the benefits to the Chinese people that were coming from this economic explosion that was happening, 48 00:02:35.626 --> 00:02:38.927 that there were going to be huge ramifications globally in terms of climate, 49 00:02:39.013 --> 00:02:40.013 environmental impact. 50 00:02:40.154 --> 00:02:43.474 And after watching that transition within China, 51 00:02:44.263 --> 00:02:47.482 I decided that I had been in the media and entertainment business prior to that. 52 00:02:47.498 --> 00:02:52.544 I thought I really would rather do something that was a little bit more meaningful to me that I thought I could make an impact on. 53 00:02:52.591 --> 00:02:53.966 And so I moved back to the U.S. 54 00:02:53.998 --> 00:02:55.310 from China in the early 55 00:02:55.763 --> 00:02:55.888 2000s. 56 00:02:56.980 --> 00:02:58.481 started to focus on these issues. 57 00:02:58.662 --> 00:02:58.942 And then 58 00:02:59.522 --> 00:03:00.704 10, 15 years later, 59 00:03:01.145 --> 00:03:02.286 having moved from the U.S. 60 00:03:02.344 --> 00:03:07.008 to Europe and always had a very strong interest in Africa and the global south, 61 00:03:07.173 --> 00:03:25.204 I was able to start to do more that sort of bridged both the climate impact and the people impact by focusing on energy access and the role for renewable energy and other clean tech solutions to actually accelerate access to electricity and clean cooking for the... 62 00:03:25.452 --> 00:03:29.197 hundreds of millions of people in the global South who still don't have it. 63 00:03:29.677 --> 00:03:33.021 The arc of my career in a brief description, 64 00:03:33.697 --> 00:03:41.064 things have certainly changed in terms of the energy access agenda since I've been involved in that now for about a decade. 65 00:03:41.767 --> 00:03:43.283 It's really elevated. 66 00:03:43.423 --> 00:03:43.611 It's 67 00:03:43.880 --> 00:03:46.121 position in a global development discussion. 68 00:03:46.262 --> 00:03:49.125 That's now a key priority of the World Bank, 69 00:03:49.145 --> 00:03:50.367 the African Development Bank, 70 00:03:50.406 --> 00:03:54.574 and in terms of a new initiative that they've launched earlier this year called Mission 300, 71 00:03:54.629 --> 00:03:55.551 which is to connect, 72 00:03:55.973 --> 00:03:56.535 not to connect, 73 00:03:56.551 --> 00:03:58.692 but to bring energy access to 300 million people. 74 00:03:58.693 --> 00:04:02.699 So that would not have been the case 10 years ago when 75 00:04:03.074 --> 00:04:04.528 I first started working on this issue. 76 00:04:04.543 --> 00:04:12.074 So that's a very encouraging sign that this is a target that people are now taking very seriously and trying to mobilize resources. 77 00:04:12.632 --> 00:04:13.973 financial and otherwise, 78 00:04:14.353 --> 00:04:15.916 to finally end energy poverty. 79 00:04:16.156 --> 00:04:16.275 Yeah, 80 00:04:16.416 --> 00:04:24.064 it's really fascinating to hear you talk about how your career has evolved and over also over the past 81 00:04:24.424 --> 00:04:25.564 30, 40 years. 82 00:04:26.025 --> 00:04:26.666 And your, 83 00:04:26.885 --> 00:04:27.189 let's say, 84 00:04:27.306 --> 00:04:31.166 take on the world has evolved as well and through across different continents. 85 00:04:31.494 --> 00:04:38.135 It's not often that I have guests on the show who are able to talk about the situation in very different settings, 86 00:04:38.181 --> 00:04:40.666 different continents and over different periods of time, 87 00:04:40.744 --> 00:04:40.978 right? 88 00:04:41.088 --> 00:04:42.068 I was born in the 89 00:04:42.468 --> 00:04:43.568 80s. You're saying I'm old. 90 00:04:43.569 --> 00:04:44.309 Is that what you're saying? 91 00:04:44.310 --> 00:04:45.350 Yeah. 92 00:04:45.369 --> 00:04:45.670 I mean, 93 00:04:45.709 --> 00:04:46.850 we get a lot from you. 94 00:04:47.268 --> 00:04:49.971 You have a lot of wisdom to share because I was born in the 95 00:04:50.369 --> 00:04:56.088 80s. So I never knew a world that was different from the kind of economic boom of China. 96 00:04:56.354 --> 00:05:04.776 What I can hear from what you say is that there is you have this kind of aha moment where you start questioning really the models that we were building on. 97 00:05:05.373 --> 00:05:07.575 And you've been also witnessing how, 98 00:05:07.995 --> 00:05:08.376 let's say, 99 00:05:08.616 --> 00:05:14.983 the energy and access and overall equity has been challenged and redefined over time, 100 00:05:15.022 --> 00:05:15.225 right? 101 00:05:15.303 --> 00:05:17.045 But you are a thinker, 102 00:05:17.186 --> 00:05:18.186 you're also a doer, 103 00:05:18.327 --> 00:05:20.366 and that's why you are involved in different initiatives. 104 00:05:20.389 --> 00:05:24.514 But recently we reconnected because we have been in touch for quite some time, 105 00:05:24.515 --> 00:05:26.655 but we reconnected because you wrote an article, 106 00:05:27.077 --> 00:05:28.202 you shared it on LinkedIn, 107 00:05:28.795 --> 00:05:30.077 which was exactly about that, 108 00:05:30.124 --> 00:05:34.545 about how the vision of the sustainable development goals, 109 00:05:34.717 --> 00:05:34.889 How? 110 00:05:35.045 --> 00:05:41.973 energy justice needs to be adapted and be a little bit more grounded into reality, 111 00:05:42.113 --> 00:05:42.313 right? 112 00:05:42.672 --> 00:05:43.332 In this article, 113 00:05:43.395 --> 00:05:45.637 you argue that the Sustainable Development Goals, 114 00:05:46.152 --> 00:05:46.754 SDGs, 115 00:05:47.035 --> 00:05:47.699 in particular, 116 00:05:47.840 --> 00:05:48.559 number seven, 117 00:05:48.637 --> 00:05:49.942 which is on energy access, 118 00:05:50.824 --> 00:05:51.824 are missing the mark. 119 00:05:52.324 --> 00:05:57.106 And you just said that there were some really important initiatives from the World Bank, 120 00:05:57.606 --> 00:05:59.027 and I will let you develop on this, 121 00:05:59.074 --> 00:06:01.074 but can you explain what it says? 122 00:06:01.305 --> 00:06:05.869 as the biggest systemic issues preventing us from achieving universal energy access. 123 00:06:06.049 --> 00:06:07.350 You have decades of experience, 124 00:06:07.351 --> 00:06:13.174 so that's really fascinating to hear what you have seen also as positive point and failures, 125 00:06:13.236 --> 00:06:13.455 right? 126 00:06:14.299 --> 00:06:14.455 Yeah, 127 00:06:14.502 --> 00:06:15.377 so on the positive, 128 00:06:15.642 --> 00:06:16.338 let's start there. 129 00:06:16.642 --> 00:06:20.158 There's an industry that's been built up over the past, 130 00:06:20.408 --> 00:06:20.767 let's say, 131 00:06:20.861 --> 00:06:21.721 15 years, 132 00:06:22.017 --> 00:06:25.252 focused on delivering energy access in the global south. 133 00:06:25.486 --> 00:06:28.064 This is still a huge issue. 134 00:06:28.346 --> 00:06:29.705 I would say it's a human rights issue, 135 00:06:29.767 --> 00:06:30.267 ultimately. 136 00:06:30.877 --> 00:06:37.143 where you have around 700 million people in the global south who have zero access to electricity. 137 00:06:37.144 --> 00:06:39.487 You have many more who have no access to clean cooking. 138 00:06:39.909 --> 00:06:46.292 And the private sector solutions to solve that problem started to emerge in about a decade ago. 139 00:06:47.034 --> 00:06:54.503 You had companies that were starting to take advantage of the decline in solar PV and other renewable energy technologies, 140 00:06:54.768 --> 00:06:55.737 battery storage, 141 00:06:56.518 --> 00:06:57.831 and delivering. 142 00:06:58.305 --> 00:07:06.670 basic levels of electricity that allowed people with no electricity to have lights in their home, 143 00:07:06.733 --> 00:07:08.733 to charge their cell phones, 144 00:07:08.858 --> 00:07:12.662 to maybe power a couple of small appliances. 145 00:07:13.303 --> 00:07:19.866 And they innovated both business model and technology to achieve incredible results over that 10 years, 146 00:07:20.006 --> 00:07:24.787 where you now have hundreds of millions of people in those communities in Sub-Saharan Africa, 147 00:07:25.006 --> 00:07:25.537 South Asia, 148 00:07:25.553 --> 00:07:27.991 and elsewhere who have access to a basic. 149 00:07:28.229 --> 00:07:29.050 levels of electricity. 150 00:07:29.070 --> 00:07:33.573 And that's a phenomenal improvement of what was there before, 151 00:07:33.635 --> 00:07:33.835 right? 152 00:07:33.854 --> 00:07:37.319 Where you had generations of people in these countries who had, 153 00:07:37.756 --> 00:07:38.741 nobody was thinking of them. 154 00:07:38.780 --> 00:07:40.780 No one was really doing anything to that for, 155 00:07:40.905 --> 00:07:42.100 to address this issue. 156 00:07:42.827 --> 00:07:45.147 The extending the grid had been talked about forever. 157 00:07:45.647 --> 00:07:46.381 Nothing was happening. 158 00:07:46.413 --> 00:07:50.569 So these companies came in and they did some incredible work and continue to do that work. 159 00:07:50.631 --> 00:07:55.678 The issue is that because of the economics of both the consumer and the product. 160 00:07:56.021 --> 00:07:58.545 many people still can't afford these solutions. 161 00:07:59.423 --> 00:08:00.326 That's one dynamic. 162 00:08:00.365 --> 00:08:01.064 At the same time, 163 00:08:01.146 --> 00:08:05.533 even the people who can't afford those solutions often want more than what they can provide, 164 00:08:05.611 --> 00:08:05.830 right? 165 00:08:05.892 --> 00:08:15.064 I think that there is a human nature for us to want to have access to the things that our cousins or friends in cities have. 166 00:08:15.095 --> 00:08:17.861 If you're living in a rural or peri-urban areas in these countries, 167 00:08:17.877 --> 00:08:19.611 you want to have a better life. 168 00:08:19.627 --> 00:08:20.345 And what does that mean? 169 00:08:20.361 --> 00:08:24.830 It means you need enough energy that can power an economy. 170 00:08:25.769 --> 00:08:28.030 While accessing phone charging, 171 00:08:28.149 --> 00:08:29.450 lighting is important, 172 00:08:30.032 --> 00:08:33.629 it's really not what ultimately people want at the end of the day, 173 00:08:33.712 --> 00:08:33.930 right? 174 00:08:33.954 --> 00:08:37.149 The human nature is that I want to be able to live my best life. 175 00:08:37.188 --> 00:08:39.055 I want access to education, 176 00:08:39.188 --> 00:08:39.774 healthcare, 177 00:08:40.172 --> 00:08:42.212 all the things that energy enable, 178 00:08:42.368 --> 00:08:42.618 right? 179 00:08:42.993 --> 00:08:44.821 Where we are today is that number one, 180 00:08:45.008 --> 00:08:47.368 we're still only reaching the cream of the crop, 181 00:08:47.415 --> 00:08:47.962 if you will. 182 00:08:48.508 --> 00:08:49.790 These are still people who are, 183 00:08:50.008 --> 00:08:53.618 they don't earn a lot of money in the bottom of the pyramid structure. 184 00:08:54.165 --> 00:08:55.985 which sort of is what we're talking about, 185 00:08:56.506 --> 00:08:59.506 people who have the lowest incomes in the world, 186 00:09:00.147 --> 00:09:02.065 we're only still reaching the top of that pyramid, 187 00:09:02.190 --> 00:09:02.409 right? 188 00:09:02.549 --> 00:09:05.549 The middle of that pyramid and the bottom of that pyramid are still out of reach. 189 00:09:05.565 --> 00:09:06.409 So number one, 190 00:09:06.410 --> 00:09:07.885 we have to figure out, 191 00:09:08.127 --> 00:09:16.815 are we doing enough to give additional energy services to the people who already have it that we've brought electricity to over the past decade? 192 00:09:16.816 --> 00:09:18.831 But also how do we reach those people at the bottom, 193 00:09:18.987 --> 00:09:19.768 the middle and the bottom, 194 00:09:19.831 --> 00:09:20.034 right? 195 00:09:20.035 --> 00:09:21.971 Who are totally forgotten and being left behind. 196 00:09:22.737 --> 00:09:23.424 So I think it's a 197 00:09:23.653 --> 00:09:24.734 two-part dynamic, 198 00:09:24.794 --> 00:09:24.934 right? 199 00:09:24.935 --> 00:09:25.655 On the one hand, 200 00:09:26.175 --> 00:09:35.307 we have to continue up that energy ladder with the people that we've already provided basic levels of electricity to and try and create more opportunity for them, 201 00:09:35.862 --> 00:09:41.417 while we also have to figure out what are the models that can actually deliver electricity to the people in the middle and the bottom of that pyramid. 202 00:09:41.448 --> 00:09:46.010 And I think the institutions that we have today are from another era, 203 00:09:46.276 --> 00:09:46.510 right? 204 00:09:46.542 --> 00:09:50.292 They were created when many of the solutions that we're talking about didn't exist. 205 00:09:50.745 --> 00:09:51.698 They're used to... 206 00:09:51.807 --> 00:09:53.104 A little bit fit for purpose, 207 00:09:53.105 --> 00:09:53.229 yeah? 208 00:09:53.465 --> 00:09:54.046 Yeah, 209 00:09:54.226 --> 00:09:54.607 exactly. 210 00:09:54.908 --> 00:09:56.051 Or time or purpose. 211 00:09:56.052 --> 00:09:59.877 And these are endemic problems that have been around for generations. 212 00:10:00.056 --> 00:10:01.599 And unless there's a shift, 213 00:10:02.342 --> 00:10:07.748 not only in mindset and that the leaders of these institutions really are serious about reforming them. 214 00:10:08.305 --> 00:10:11.168 We're not going to be able to solve this problem. 215 00:10:11.227 --> 00:10:12.829 And that's what SDG 7 is. 216 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:15.512 The stated goal is to solve this issue by 2030. 217 00:10:16.293 --> 00:10:18.114 And we're very far off track from doing that. 218 00:10:18.192 --> 00:10:18.614 In fact, 219 00:10:18.676 --> 00:10:20.161 we're actually growing. 220 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:23.700 The population of unelectrified is growing instead of decreasing now. 221 00:10:23.903 --> 00:10:25.504 It decreased for quite some time, 222 00:10:25.505 --> 00:10:26.989 but now it's starting to grow back again. 223 00:10:27.020 --> 00:10:28.489 And are the World Bank, 224 00:10:28.629 --> 00:10:29.739 are the African Development Bank, 225 00:10:29.740 --> 00:10:30.770 the right institutions, 226 00:10:30.771 --> 00:10:31.848 is the United Nations? 227 00:10:32.270 --> 00:10:33.832 Does it have a role to play here? 228 00:10:34.265 --> 00:10:35.446 I think there are big question marks, 229 00:10:35.486 --> 00:10:37.006 development finance institutions, 230 00:10:37.565 --> 00:10:39.084 even governments and private sector. 231 00:10:39.287 --> 00:10:43.108 I think there are still a lot of legacy systems in place. 232 00:10:43.186 --> 00:10:45.248 And unless those change quickly, 233 00:10:45.967 --> 00:10:49.366 I think the chance that we're going to achieve these goals is really out of reach. 234 00:10:49.584 --> 00:10:49.866 And so 235 00:10:50.428 --> 00:10:55.116 I think it's encouraging that there's a greater focus on this issue now. 236 00:10:55.772 --> 00:11:02.569 But I have serious concerns about whether the institutions we're discussing are actually the ones who can solve the problem. 237 00:11:02.772 --> 00:11:03.772 And if they can't. 238 00:11:04.309 --> 00:11:05.410 Then the question becomes, 239 00:11:06.070 --> 00:11:09.072 what other alternatives need to be developed? 240 00:11:09.232 --> 00:11:14.881 Or how did those institutions reform quickly in order to meet their mandate? 241 00:11:14.998 --> 00:11:16.842 And I think the article that you referenced, 242 00:11:16.998 --> 00:11:18.662 those are some of the questions I was raising, 243 00:11:18.686 --> 00:11:20.123 but also trying to think about, 244 00:11:20.146 --> 00:11:20.271 OK, 245 00:11:20.428 --> 00:11:22.428 what are the solutions to making that possible? 246 00:11:23.068 --> 00:11:24.021 We'll get into it now. 247 00:11:24.084 --> 00:11:24.896 But in the article, 248 00:11:24.928 --> 00:11:26.928 you coined the term access washing, 249 00:11:27.459 --> 00:11:27.631 which 250 00:11:27.990 --> 00:11:32.803 I think is really perfect to highlight this kind of misleading progress in energy access. 251 00:11:33.269 --> 00:11:36.712 It's basically you make one step up and two step back. 252 00:11:36.974 --> 00:11:40.376 And what kind of real world example have you noticed? 253 00:11:40.575 --> 00:11:44.458 You just mentioned people from the top tier accessing more electricity, 254 00:11:44.560 --> 00:11:45.341 but on the bottom, 255 00:11:45.685 --> 00:11:48.661 not getting any more electricity that they would actually need. 256 00:11:49.106 --> 00:11:54.325 Is it something from your experience with the different company organizations you've worked on? 257 00:11:54.544 --> 00:11:57.091 Are they particular examples that you could share? 258 00:11:57.653 --> 00:12:00.950 Because most of the listeners of the show are in Europe. 259 00:12:01.385 --> 00:12:06.429 And they may not know so much about the challenges in the developing countries. 260 00:12:06.468 --> 00:12:06.632 Right. 261 00:12:06.633 --> 00:12:08.554 So can you share a few examples? 262 00:12:08.691 --> 00:12:12.374 I think what you essentially said is that there is somehow a, 263 00:12:12.734 --> 00:12:12.976 let's say, 264 00:12:12.977 --> 00:12:19.843 a privatization of energy access or the process because many governments and public institutions cannot get to that. 265 00:12:19.859 --> 00:12:21.702 So can you share some examples? 266 00:12:21.749 --> 00:12:21.906 Right. 267 00:12:23.062 --> 00:12:26.937 So in terms of this idea of access washing, 268 00:12:27.265 --> 00:12:30.890 I was intentionally being trying to be provocative because. 269 00:12:31.341 --> 00:12:37.246 I think there's oftentimes a lot of people patting each other on the back for what we've already achieved, 270 00:12:37.707 --> 00:12:38.750 when in fact, 271 00:12:38.751 --> 00:12:41.773 if you go back to the sustainable development goal framework, 272 00:12:41.828 --> 00:12:43.476 especially for energy access, 273 00:12:44.070 --> 00:12:46.773 it states clearly that the goal is affordable, 274 00:12:46.914 --> 00:12:47.578 sustainable, 275 00:12:47.703 --> 00:12:48.343 reliable, 276 00:12:48.578 --> 00:12:49.859 and modern energy. 277 00:12:50.734 --> 00:12:53.797 And there's a lot of debate about what modern means. 278 00:12:54.078 --> 00:12:56.125 And I don't want to get into that because I think it's, 279 00:12:56.718 --> 00:12:57.562 we don't have enough time, 280 00:12:57.609 --> 00:12:57.734 but... 281 00:12:58.345 --> 00:12:59.487 If you just take modern, 282 00:12:59.526 --> 00:13:01.467 that word at its face value, 283 00:13:02.287 --> 00:13:04.651 what would you and I define as modern electricity, 284 00:13:04.752 --> 00:13:04.991 right? 285 00:13:05.073 --> 00:13:05.553 It would be, 286 00:13:05.791 --> 00:13:06.592 or as energy, 287 00:13:06.709 --> 00:13:06.897 right? 288 00:13:06.898 --> 00:13:07.217 It would be, 289 00:13:07.592 --> 00:13:13.022 I could have multiple appliances in my home and afford to have those, 290 00:13:13.162 --> 00:13:13.342 right? 291 00:13:13.343 --> 00:13:14.584 And they would be energy efficient. 292 00:13:15.116 --> 00:13:22.631 And I could buy machines for my business or for my farming operations that would allow me to mechanize and create more income and create, 293 00:13:22.709 --> 00:13:24.069 build my business or my, 294 00:13:24.491 --> 00:13:25.694 whatever it is that I'm doing, 295 00:13:26.006 --> 00:13:26.866 hire more people. 296 00:13:27.429 --> 00:13:29.712 create economic opportunity for my neighbors. 297 00:13:30.231 --> 00:13:31.132 That's modern energy, 298 00:13:31.253 --> 00:13:31.514 right? 299 00:13:31.772 --> 00:13:33.917 So this is within the UN framework. 300 00:13:34.057 --> 00:13:36.221 That's one of the goals for SDG 7. 301 00:13:36.721 --> 00:13:39.401 If that is part of the target, 302 00:13:39.682 --> 00:13:43.862 we need to be honest with ourselves that even though we've made huge progress over the past decade, 303 00:13:43.878 --> 00:13:46.003 we're still not providing people with modern energy. 304 00:13:46.643 --> 00:13:47.534 And in that sense, 305 00:13:48.190 --> 00:13:49.706 it is access washing, 306 00:13:49.753 --> 00:13:49.909 right? 307 00:13:49.925 --> 00:13:51.831 Because you are providing access to energy, 308 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:53.800 but it's the bare minimum. 309 00:13:54.369 --> 00:13:55.150 And if the goal, 310 00:13:55.251 --> 00:13:55.930 as stated by 311 00:13:56.272 --> 00:13:56.932 SDG 7, 312 00:13:56.991 --> 00:13:57.772 is modern energy, 313 00:13:57.792 --> 00:13:59.636 or at least one of the goals is modern energy, 314 00:14:00.116 --> 00:14:04.643 then we need to be honest with ourselves as a community that we're not achieving that ambition. 315 00:14:04.979 --> 00:14:08.526 And so I also worry that the institutions that are trying to, 316 00:14:08.800 --> 00:14:09.487 so for example, 317 00:14:09.526 --> 00:14:14.362 this Mission 300 program that the World Bank and African Development Bank launched earlier this year, 318 00:14:14.925 --> 00:14:18.893 it's to bring electricity to 300 million people in Africa by 2030. 319 00:14:19.721 --> 00:14:21.221 So that's fantastic, 320 00:14:21.503 --> 00:14:21.737 right? 321 00:14:22.143 --> 00:14:23.159 It's great to have that. 322 00:14:23.425 --> 00:14:25.588 momentum and moving in that direction. 323 00:14:25.748 --> 00:14:32.097 But are we going to be tracking for basic levels of energy access or modern levels of energy access? 324 00:14:32.254 --> 00:14:34.472 And we need to be very clear, 325 00:14:35.238 --> 00:14:36.238 not only with ourselves, 326 00:14:36.254 --> 00:14:39.722 but also with the people who are going to be accessing that energy access, 327 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:42.097 what it is we're actually trying to achieve. 328 00:14:42.988 --> 00:14:48.457 So you could make the case that what we've provided to date is not modern energy and therefore it's access washing. 329 00:14:48.488 --> 00:14:52.457 So even though if we have provided basic levels of act as to hundreds of millions of people. 330 00:14:53.309 --> 00:14:54.050 It's not modern, 331 00:14:54.550 --> 00:14:54.790 right? 332 00:14:54.931 --> 00:14:55.872 So is it washing? 333 00:14:56.013 --> 00:14:58.536 I think that's a question that we need to really look hard at. 334 00:14:59.153 --> 00:14:59.274 Yeah, 335 00:14:59.517 --> 00:15:00.817 I totally agree with you. 336 00:15:00.997 --> 00:15:02.536 I did some work in Africa, 337 00:15:02.622 --> 00:15:03.763 as the listeners know. 338 00:15:04.036 --> 00:15:06.903 And what I really noticed as part of, 339 00:15:07.185 --> 00:15:07.419 let's say, 340 00:15:07.420 --> 00:15:11.606 the broader conversation is that we were never mentioning the quality of the electricity supplied, 341 00:15:11.622 --> 00:15:11.810 right? 342 00:15:12.210 --> 00:15:12.730 It was like, 343 00:15:12.770 --> 00:15:12.890 OK, 344 00:15:13.211 --> 00:15:14.450 now you have solar panels, 345 00:15:14.590 --> 00:15:15.090 you're good to go. 346 00:15:15.551 --> 00:15:15.671 No, 347 00:15:15.831 --> 00:15:16.751 it's not only about that. 348 00:15:17.012 --> 00:15:21.751 It's being sure that you actually get what you paid for. 349 00:15:22.212 --> 00:15:25.133 You actually are engaged in a proper conversation saying, 350 00:15:25.196 --> 00:15:25.313 OK, 351 00:15:25.430 --> 00:15:27.954 you will have access to electricity only for six hours a day, 352 00:15:28.219 --> 00:15:29.610 but maybe it's sufficient. 353 00:15:30.047 --> 00:15:41.579 But at least when you are not like embarking in this kind of white savior approach where let's say the provider of the service or the solution or the organization that will help you. 354 00:15:42.294 --> 00:15:49.821 will tell you something that is actually not what it is and that is deceptive at least, 355 00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:54.008 or not making such a huge difference in your life at the end of the day. 356 00:15:54.063 --> 00:16:05.516 So I guess it's also about overcoming the fact that people are living without electricity and they are coping in certain ways and they need to be... 357 00:16:06.422 --> 00:16:12.925 way more part of the conversation and ask what they actually want and how we can always improve, 358 00:16:13.003 --> 00:16:13.222 right? 359 00:16:13.284 --> 00:16:15.261 Because it's not only about the base, 360 00:16:15.667 --> 00:16:20.902 having access to electricity a few hours a day for a few services like charging your phone or a little lamp, 361 00:16:21.284 --> 00:16:28.284 but also being able to provide a certain quality of the service in a certain way with certain respect for consumer rights and so on. 362 00:16:28.863 --> 00:16:29.222 Yeah, 363 00:16:29.223 --> 00:16:29.941 but I think it's all, 364 00:16:30.113 --> 00:16:33.847 so it also comes down to a recognition that, 365 00:16:34.175 --> 00:16:34.472 you know, 366 00:16:35.226 --> 00:16:36.147 Rural electrification, 367 00:16:36.968 --> 00:16:38.930 wherever it's happened in the world, 368 00:16:39.010 --> 00:16:48.258 has been heavily subsidized by the state or by other organizations that can provide subsidy or concessional capital to make that possible. 369 00:16:48.836 --> 00:17:02.898 I think there was this pipe dream at the beginning of our industry that the private sector would come in and be able to save the day and provide electricity to all of the unelectrified people who are suffering from energy poverty still for generations. 370 00:17:02.930 --> 00:17:03.758 But the reality is that... 371 00:17:04.018 --> 00:17:06.260 Even the private sector has limitations to what it can do, 372 00:17:06.501 --> 00:17:06.721 right? 373 00:17:06.821 --> 00:17:09.503 And we've done a lot over the past decade. 374 00:17:10.463 --> 00:17:20.233 There needs to be a recognition that there are many people who suffer from energy poverty in these communities who are never going to be able to afford the services that we're talking about. 375 00:17:20.327 --> 00:17:20.967 And if they are, 376 00:17:20.968 --> 00:17:24.624 it's going to take a long time for them to be able to pay for these services. 377 00:17:24.733 --> 00:17:30.608 If you recognize that the model for rural electrification has always relied heavily on subsidy, 378 00:17:30.952 --> 00:17:32.842 then there needs to be a real serious cut, 379 00:17:32.889 --> 00:17:33.045 real... 380 00:17:33.454 --> 00:17:36.437 very serious conversation about where that capital will come from. 381 00:17:37.058 --> 00:17:40.042 Is it going to come from the governments of those countries? 382 00:17:40.081 --> 00:17:42.785 Is it going to come from development finance institutions, 383 00:17:42.863 --> 00:17:43.441 philanthropy? 384 00:17:44.488 --> 00:17:49.503 And that's a huge blind spot and a huge gap in terms of capital available to do that. 385 00:17:49.504 --> 00:17:50.066 But if we're going to, 386 00:17:50.269 --> 00:17:52.472 let's say of the 300 million of this mission 300, 387 00:17:53.175 --> 00:17:58.238 100 million of them can't afford the services that we're talking about, 388 00:17:58.300 --> 00:17:59.238 who's going to pay for that, 389 00:17:59.456 --> 00:17:59.675 right? 390 00:18:00.066 --> 00:18:02.238 I think that's a huge gap currently. 391 00:18:02.714 --> 00:18:07.238 And I also think it comes back to a lot of the development finance institutions, 392 00:18:07.320 --> 00:18:08.859 which I also talk about in that article, 393 00:18:08.902 --> 00:18:13.926 which is that they were founded upon the mandate of trying to end poverty, 394 00:18:14.183 --> 00:18:14.644 essentially, 395 00:18:14.707 --> 00:18:14.965 right? 396 00:18:15.207 --> 00:18:22.511 But they've evolved over the decades since their creation into entities that are essentially looking for commercial returns on their investments, 397 00:18:22.621 --> 00:18:22.808 right? 398 00:18:22.855 --> 00:18:26.261 As opposed to putting in risk capital that they're willing to lose, 399 00:18:26.340 --> 00:18:26.558 right? 400 00:18:26.605 --> 00:18:31.949 Or that there's the potential that it might be lost and that they won't make a return on that investment. 401 00:18:32.638 --> 00:18:33.339 But that's totally, 402 00:18:33.820 --> 00:18:34.200 I would say, 403 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:35.040 for the most part, 404 00:18:35.242 --> 00:18:38.265 it's that mindset has disappeared, 405 00:18:38.523 --> 00:18:38.644 right? 406 00:18:38.722 --> 00:18:46.675 And so you have a huge gap there that needs to be addressed in terms of what is the mandate for the development finance institutions? 407 00:18:46.792 --> 00:18:49.449 Are they actually investing risk capital? 408 00:18:50.042 --> 00:18:51.370 Are they willing to take a loss? 409 00:18:51.792 --> 00:18:53.824 Are they fulfilling their original mandate? 410 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:56.214 And I think the answer, 411 00:18:56.636 --> 00:18:57.183 unfortunately, 412 00:18:57.214 --> 00:18:58.402 today is probably not. 413 00:18:58.636 --> 00:18:59.777 And that needs to be. 414 00:19:00.390 --> 00:19:00.831 addressed, 415 00:19:00.951 --> 00:19:01.191 right? 416 00:19:01.351 --> 00:19:03.653 And you also have in Europe in particular, 417 00:19:04.114 --> 00:19:08.157 this resurgence of the far right movements at the national level, 418 00:19:08.258 --> 00:19:11.059 which means a retrenchment in overseas development funding, 419 00:19:11.598 --> 00:19:12.942 which is a separate dynamic as well, 420 00:19:12.965 --> 00:19:14.504 which is going to make it even more difficult. 421 00:19:14.582 --> 00:19:20.223 So you have these two different dynamics that were both looking more internally, 422 00:19:20.504 --> 00:19:22.270 globally within the advanced economies, 423 00:19:22.411 --> 00:19:24.832 not willing to fund development as much as they used to, 424 00:19:24.926 --> 00:19:29.520 but also the type of funding that they're putting out there is also not what. 425 00:19:29.882 --> 00:19:30.543 It's supposed to be. 426 00:19:30.803 --> 00:19:31.023 Right. 427 00:19:31.164 --> 00:19:36.129 And so there are a lot of things that I think go unspoken or if they are spoken, 428 00:19:36.168 --> 00:19:37.570 they're spoken about in private. 429 00:19:38.273 --> 00:19:41.672 And it really needs to become a more public discourse about this. 430 00:19:41.711 --> 00:19:43.117 And it has to also include governments. 431 00:19:43.156 --> 00:19:43.312 Right. 432 00:19:43.351 --> 00:19:44.820 A lot of governments are already in Africa, 433 00:19:44.859 --> 00:19:45.320 for example, 434 00:19:45.336 --> 00:19:46.195 are doing quite a bit. 435 00:19:46.836 --> 00:19:47.320 Nigeria, 436 00:19:47.367 --> 00:19:47.883 for example, 437 00:19:47.914 --> 00:19:48.179 I think, 438 00:19:48.226 --> 00:19:52.789 has taken more than a billion dollars of loans from the World Bank to try and address this issue. 439 00:19:52.820 --> 00:19:55.492 And so they're stepping up and taking their responsibility. 440 00:19:55.508 --> 00:19:58.711 But these other institutions have to do the same in a way. 441 00:19:59.322 --> 00:20:01.746 that recognizes that middle of the pyramid, 442 00:20:01.868 --> 00:20:02.868 bottom of the pyramid, 443 00:20:03.008 --> 00:20:10.338 they're not going to get electrified unless there's a huge amount of subsidy to do that on an ongoing basis, 444 00:20:10.401 --> 00:20:10.580 right? 445 00:20:10.643 --> 00:20:11.682 This may be perpetual. 446 00:20:12.002 --> 00:20:12.424 We don't know. 447 00:20:13.136 --> 00:20:15.456 This is how it's happened worldwide. 448 00:20:16.237 --> 00:20:16.616 Africa, 449 00:20:17.056 --> 00:20:18.516 South Asia should be no exception, 450 00:20:19.138 --> 00:20:20.657 but that capital is not available. 451 00:20:20.798 --> 00:20:25.161 And also I would say that these are communities that are the most climate vulnerable. 452 00:20:25.677 --> 00:20:25.856 Yeah. 453 00:20:26.059 --> 00:20:26.200 Yeah. 454 00:20:26.239 --> 00:20:29.395 They've had the least contribution to climate change, 455 00:20:30.177 --> 00:20:32.645 but they're still receiving the communities, 456 00:20:33.036 --> 00:20:34.598 the regions where these communities are based, 457 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.395 they still receive hardly anything in terms of investment, 458 00:20:37.520 --> 00:20:37.755 right? 459 00:20:38.302 --> 00:20:38.927 And subsidy. 460 00:20:39.458 --> 00:20:42.489 And so that's also a disconnect and the climate adaptation finances. 461 00:20:42.564 --> 00:20:45.405 pretty much non-existent still where that would come from, 462 00:20:45.485 --> 00:20:49.267 but that hasn't been mobilized and I'm not holding my breath for that to happen. 463 00:20:49.286 --> 00:20:50.224 So there's just a, 464 00:20:51.708 --> 00:21:02.481 there's a lot of structural systemic issues plus the political economy that exists between the donor countries and the recipient countries that makes things very complicated. 465 00:21:02.513 --> 00:21:05.544 And this is not an easy solve for what we're trying to achieve, 466 00:21:06.356 --> 00:21:10.185 but there needs to be much more public discourse and dialogue. 467 00:21:10.632 --> 00:21:14.377 to at least identify the issues and try and figure out how do we fill those gaps. 468 00:21:15.017 --> 00:21:15.134 Yeah, 469 00:21:15.275 --> 00:21:16.217 that's really interesting. 470 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:16.900 That's really, 471 00:21:17.541 --> 00:21:24.306 I like the development finance institutions look very risk-averse from what I can hear. 472 00:21:24.947 --> 00:21:29.416 And you're quite vocal about this topic that there needs to be a proper conversation, 473 00:21:29.431 --> 00:21:29.869 a proper, 474 00:21:30.369 --> 00:21:30.713 let's say, 475 00:21:30.791 --> 00:21:33.353 a more transparent multi-level governance. 476 00:21:33.619 --> 00:21:36.853 I hate the term multi-level governance because it's very jargony. 477 00:21:37.828 --> 00:21:38.709 Anytime I hear it, 478 00:21:38.729 --> 00:21:40.171 I want to say bingo. 479 00:21:40.310 --> 00:21:48.497 But I guess it's really about like building the proper partnerships that can build the success of those initiatives. 480 00:21:48.997 --> 00:21:49.997 But in practice, 481 00:21:50.442 --> 00:21:54.786 what would be needed in your view to build these partnerships? 482 00:21:55.208 --> 00:22:02.614 Because the episode will be broadcast just a few days before the beginning of COP29 in Baku, 483 00:22:02.817 --> 00:22:03.458 Azerbaijan. 484 00:22:04.056 --> 00:22:07.600 And there will be a lot of discussion around climate finance and so on. 485 00:22:07.639 --> 00:22:09.100 But it's not only about climate, 486 00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:09.682 as you said. 487 00:22:10.143 --> 00:22:11.682 It's also about justice, 488 00:22:11.705 --> 00:22:15.486 about providing people with the ways to live, 489 00:22:15.564 --> 00:22:17.346 the means to live a more decent life, 490 00:22:17.689 --> 00:22:21.807 to make sure that the community least most affected by climate change, 491 00:22:21.853 --> 00:22:23.010 but least responsible for it, 492 00:22:23.369 --> 00:22:30.588 do actually become resilient in a way and live a better life despite the enormous challenges they face. 493 00:22:30.947 --> 00:22:31.838 I'm also thinking, 494 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:32.291 for instance, 495 00:22:32.307 --> 00:22:32.666 of... 496 00:22:33.340 --> 00:22:35.822 displaced population because of climate change and so on. 497 00:22:36.502 --> 00:22:37.944 So do you have any, 498 00:22:38.143 --> 00:22:38.444 let's say, 499 00:22:38.604 --> 00:22:43.533 positive experience that you think you could draw from to think of, 500 00:22:43.854 --> 00:22:44.252 let's say, 501 00:22:44.729 --> 00:22:47.877 ways to overcome the challenges that we are facing now? 502 00:22:48.291 --> 00:22:50.182 Because I'm feeling a little bit depressed now. 503 00:22:50.260 --> 00:22:50.697 So can you, 504 00:22:50.822 --> 00:22:50.963 can, 505 00:22:51.541 --> 00:22:52.604 what do we need to do? 506 00:22:53.166 --> 00:22:54.197 So I think there needs to, 507 00:22:54.322 --> 00:22:55.604 so I think at the end of the day, 508 00:22:56.744 --> 00:22:57.979 and I don't know if this is, 509 00:22:58.291 --> 00:23:00.401 it's not really a recommendation per se, 510 00:23:00.807 --> 00:23:02.447 it's a call to action. 511 00:23:02.980 --> 00:23:07.843 I think that what the World Bank and African Development Bank have done demonstrates leadership. 512 00:23:08.285 --> 00:23:11.468 At least they've put this out there as an objective, 513 00:23:11.749 --> 00:23:14.788 and they're working to try and achieve that objective. 514 00:23:15.452 --> 00:23:18.335 But those are institutions that have been around since Bretton Woods, 515 00:23:18.538 --> 00:23:20.890 who are very entrenched in their ways. 516 00:23:21.156 --> 00:23:21.499 And 517 00:23:21.906 --> 00:23:27.124 I think reforming them is going to be very difficult to do in a short period of time. 518 00:23:27.999 --> 00:23:30.234 So I think more of those leaders. 519 00:23:30.576 --> 00:23:32.559 like Ajay Banga at the World Bank, 520 00:23:32.758 --> 00:23:35.279 are needed and leadership in general is needed. 521 00:23:36.041 --> 00:23:45.150 Whether they're able to overcome the inertia of those institutions in a time frame that's going to actually address the issue is a big question mark in my mind. 522 00:23:45.713 --> 00:23:45.932 But 523 00:23:46.588 --> 00:23:48.228 I think that type of leadership, 524 00:23:48.838 --> 00:23:57.728 which is basically saying we're going to try and press down the institutional interests that have governed these bodies for decades. 525 00:23:58.412 --> 00:24:05.658 and address these problems from a people-centric perspective and really try to think about those people, 526 00:24:05.760 --> 00:24:06.541 first and foremost, 527 00:24:06.557 --> 00:24:08.502 whose lives we're trying to improve. 528 00:24:08.541 --> 00:24:09.666 That's a huge need. 529 00:24:10.025 --> 00:24:14.971 And I don't think we're seeing that type of leadership across all of these institutions. 530 00:24:14.986 --> 00:24:16.424 I think you're seeing it in small pockets, 531 00:24:16.471 --> 00:24:18.799 but then they also have to bring their institutions along with them. 532 00:24:18.814 --> 00:24:19.580 That's very difficult. 533 00:24:20.408 --> 00:24:21.049 Not to mention, 534 00:24:21.221 --> 00:24:24.455 I think the other thing is that in order to be successful, 535 00:24:25.002 --> 00:24:27.596 the need for collaboration and partnership is essential. 536 00:24:27.812 --> 00:24:28.032 Right. 537 00:24:28.172 --> 00:24:33.997 And one of the other things in that article that I talk about is that I don't see any of that in the true sense of partnership. 538 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:34.278 Right. 539 00:24:34.298 --> 00:24:37.665 I think everybody is still very institutionally oriented. 540 00:24:38.446 --> 00:24:38.845 And 541 00:24:39.587 --> 00:24:44.962 I don't know how to create a more efficient deployment of resources, 542 00:24:45.009 --> 00:24:46.149 both human and capital. 543 00:24:46.243 --> 00:24:51.790 But it's going to require people saying and looking at what they do very honestly and saying, 544 00:24:51.853 --> 00:24:53.259 we don't we shouldn't be doing this. 545 00:24:53.290 --> 00:24:54.681 It's already being done by that person. 546 00:24:54.884 --> 00:24:57.165 Let's take all of our resources. 547 00:24:57.584 --> 00:25:00.945 and put them over there with this organization is already working on this, 548 00:25:01.005 --> 00:25:01.726 doing quite well, 549 00:25:02.386 --> 00:25:03.804 instead of starting some new program, 550 00:25:03.984 --> 00:25:04.726 some new fund. 551 00:25:05.144 --> 00:25:07.265 I think that there has to be some sort of consolidation, 552 00:25:07.382 --> 00:25:07.906 aggregation, 553 00:25:07.929 --> 00:25:14.703 and harmonization of resources in order to achieve these goals on the timeline that they're expected to be achieved on. 554 00:25:15.302 --> 00:25:18.722 So I think the positive is that as a private sector, 555 00:25:18.763 --> 00:25:20.702 we've made a huge impact over the past 10 years. 556 00:25:21.464 --> 00:25:30.027 We've made a difference in terms of taking this issue and elevating it up to the top of the global development agenda. 557 00:25:30.808 --> 00:25:38.706 Now we just need to figure out or leaders need to step up and drive the change that's required. 558 00:25:38.753 --> 00:25:38.909 Now, 559 00:25:39.253 --> 00:25:41.222 are they going to be able to do that in the timeframe required? 560 00:25:41.284 --> 00:25:41.628 I don't know. 561 00:25:41.831 --> 00:25:42.628 But ultimately, 562 00:25:42.941 --> 00:25:43.191 for me, 563 00:25:43.192 --> 00:25:43.941 it comes down to... 564 00:25:44.838 --> 00:25:48.403 The courage of that leadership to actually look in the mirror, 565 00:25:49.141 --> 00:25:50.223 both as government, 566 00:25:50.504 --> 00:25:52.324 as development finance institutions, 567 00:25:52.367 --> 00:25:53.289 as private sector, 568 00:25:53.485 --> 00:25:54.008 and say, 569 00:25:54.289 --> 00:25:54.586 okay, 570 00:25:55.110 --> 00:25:55.352 you know, 571 00:25:55.766 --> 00:25:58.094 these are the gaps that need to be filled. 572 00:25:58.735 --> 00:26:01.867 What can I do to reform my institution, 573 00:26:01.930 --> 00:26:03.070 to partner with others, 574 00:26:03.117 --> 00:26:05.914 to make that more possible than it is today? 575 00:26:06.086 --> 00:26:10.789 And I think we're still stuck in a little bit of a time warp on those issues. 576 00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:13.649 And in order for it to actually change. 577 00:26:14.286 --> 00:26:15.327 It's going to require leadership. 578 00:26:15.527 --> 00:26:18.510 That's going to be very difficult in today's geopolitical environment. 579 00:26:18.893 --> 00:26:20.713 But that's what I think ultimately it comes down to. 580 00:26:20.752 --> 00:26:22.377 I think there are a lot of good organizations, 581 00:26:22.713 --> 00:26:23.432 civil society, 582 00:26:24.260 --> 00:26:25.697 working from the bottom up as well. 583 00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:28.018 But that takes even longer, 584 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:29.002 right? 585 00:26:29.103 --> 00:26:32.416 That type of change is probably more sustainable over time. 586 00:26:33.150 --> 00:26:35.572 But if we're talking about speed and scale, 587 00:26:36.244 --> 00:26:37.307 without that leadership, 588 00:26:37.369 --> 00:26:40.150 I think we're not going to get anywhere close to where we need to. 589 00:26:40.197 --> 00:26:40.572 That's really... 590 00:26:42.522 --> 00:26:43.443 Interesting and inspiring. 591 00:26:43.483 --> 00:26:51.834 So is it something that you aim to do or develop or are already doing with the HESPARIS systems or with your end powerful? 592 00:26:52.874 --> 00:26:56.436 So I'm no longer involved day-to-day in Power for All. 593 00:26:56.475 --> 00:26:57.475 I support their work. 594 00:26:57.936 --> 00:26:58.381 But yes, 595 00:26:58.616 --> 00:27:00.272 those types of organizations, 596 00:27:00.459 --> 00:27:02.428 Sustainable Energy for All or SE for All, 597 00:27:02.506 --> 00:27:04.491 which is affiliated with the United Nations, 598 00:27:04.506 --> 00:27:06.866 I think the CEO of that organization, 599 00:27:06.913 --> 00:27:07.459 Dami Lola, 600 00:27:08.053 --> 00:27:09.491 OOB is also doing some. 601 00:27:09.958 --> 00:27:10.698 very important work. 602 00:27:10.718 --> 00:27:15.898 There are other organizations that are working on the advocacy side to try and mobilize movement. 603 00:27:16.460 --> 00:27:17.358 As a private sector, 604 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:18.323 Husk Power Systems, 605 00:27:18.378 --> 00:27:18.980 my company, 606 00:27:19.644 --> 00:27:20.683 we're a mini grid developer. 607 00:27:20.761 --> 00:27:27.081 We electrify rural communities with solar energy and provide a range of services that improve education, 608 00:27:27.175 --> 00:27:27.769 healthcare, 609 00:27:28.206 --> 00:27:29.237 economic activity, 610 00:27:29.722 --> 00:27:30.097 et cetera, 611 00:27:30.128 --> 00:27:30.487 et cetera, 612 00:27:30.503 --> 00:27:31.362 in those communities. 613 00:27:31.940 --> 00:27:33.940 We're actually at the moment working, 614 00:27:34.456 --> 00:27:38.331 we're trying to put together a group of leaders from the industry. 615 00:27:38.974 --> 00:27:56.887 to outline very clearly for the development finance community what it is we need in order to achieve that mission 300 target because what we need and what so i think what one of the issues is that a lot of these organizations that have put these pronouncements out there they 616 00:27:56.950 --> 00:28:07.043 have expected the private sector to meet them where they are what we're trying to say to them is you need to meet us where we are right there are huge challenges for us to scale at the speed that 617 00:28:07.406 --> 00:28:31.833 mission 300 will require to meet their targets but we're not seeing the type of support needed for the private sector to actually make that possible we're in the process of trying to really mobilize leading companies in our sector to outline what those things are and make sure that it's front and center for all of those institutions so that they understand full well for if we're going to help them meet their targets they need to really be 618 00:28:31.895 --> 00:28:33.895 thinking differently yeah it's not either 619 00:28:34.522 --> 00:28:40.628 Or it's really together that you need to define those kind of goals and objectives and make sure that something concrete happens. 620 00:28:40.667 --> 00:28:41.948 And right now, 621 00:28:42.010 --> 00:28:42.807 when you mention this, 622 00:28:43.049 --> 00:28:43.448 I think, 623 00:28:43.487 --> 00:28:44.089 for instance, 624 00:28:44.128 --> 00:28:46.635 of the grant application and so on, 625 00:28:46.674 --> 00:28:49.581 that can be extremely complicated and time consuming. 626 00:28:49.659 --> 00:28:50.518 And there are, 627 00:28:50.956 --> 00:28:51.331 of course, 628 00:28:51.378 --> 00:28:52.643 there is super needed, 629 00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:54.268 but they are not the only, 630 00:28:54.659 --> 00:28:55.003 let's say, 631 00:28:55.206 --> 00:28:58.299 challenge you face because you also face regulatory issues. 632 00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:01.956 You need to have some kind of streamlined processes and so on. 633 00:29:02.034 --> 00:29:02.143 So... 634 00:29:02.942 --> 00:29:08.523 I guess that it's also about getting a framework that makes those partnerships deliver. 635 00:29:09.523 --> 00:29:09.683 Yeah, 636 00:29:09.925 --> 00:29:15.386 I think there's a lot of bureaucracy in what we're talking about that slows everything down. 637 00:29:16.207 --> 00:29:17.504 So that's the speed element, 638 00:29:17.707 --> 00:29:17.902 right? 639 00:29:17.903 --> 00:29:19.199 How do you make that more efficient? 640 00:29:19.433 --> 00:29:22.183 But also there is a quantum element as well, 641 00:29:22.371 --> 00:29:22.574 right? 642 00:29:22.589 --> 00:29:24.480 In terms of capital that's required. 643 00:29:24.543 --> 00:29:26.668 We're talking about tens of billions of dollars here. 644 00:29:27.371 --> 00:29:29.808 A lot of that's going to need to be subsidy and grants. 645 00:29:30.230 --> 00:29:31.168 Where is that coming from? 646 00:29:31.370 --> 00:29:31.770 Right now, 647 00:29:31.851 --> 00:29:35.435 we're still stuck in pilot phase with a lot of these things. 648 00:29:35.454 --> 00:29:41.056 And how do we get from pilot to scale and really not only mobilize the development finance institutions, 649 00:29:41.057 --> 00:29:43.118 but also have what do they need to do? 650 00:29:43.142 --> 00:29:43.946 The climate funds, 651 00:29:43.962 --> 00:29:44.681 the pension funds, 652 00:29:44.704 --> 00:29:47.899 what do they need to do to crowd in without pension funds, 653 00:29:47.900 --> 00:29:50.587 but the climate funds that have more concessional capital, 654 00:29:50.602 --> 00:29:52.571 the DFIs that have more concessional capital, 655 00:29:52.587 --> 00:29:55.946 what do they need to do to crowd in the private equity firms, 656 00:29:56.009 --> 00:29:57.556 the sovereign wealth funds, 657 00:29:57.618 --> 00:29:59.056 the pension funds and others? 658 00:29:59.696 --> 00:30:02.800 who are on the sidelines of this issue still, 659 00:30:03.239 --> 00:30:10.085 because we're going to have to mobilize all the whole spectrum of capital to get to the end goal. 660 00:30:10.624 --> 00:30:11.327 And right now, 661 00:30:11.788 --> 00:30:14.452 we only have bits and pieces of that spectrum in place. 662 00:30:14.453 --> 00:30:21.522 So there's a lot of work that needs to be done as well to mobilize bigger sums of money to achieve these targets. 663 00:30:22.564 --> 00:30:22.744 Yeah, 664 00:30:22.745 --> 00:30:27.448 and that's really interesting because that's exactly one of the points of the discussion at 665 00:30:27.929 --> 00:30:29.472 COP29 in Baku, 666 00:30:29.691 --> 00:30:29.933 right? 667 00:30:30.210 --> 00:30:31.112 The finance part, 668 00:30:31.113 --> 00:30:31.816 the finance bits. 669 00:30:31.917 --> 00:30:36.261 Everybody at the end of the day is understanding that it's all about mobilizing money, 670 00:30:36.417 --> 00:30:44.730 whether it's for climate change or for equity and addressing those equity issues that are even more visible because of climate change and climate warming. 671 00:30:44.964 --> 00:30:46.683 We are reaching the end of the conversation, 672 00:30:46.823 --> 00:30:47.105 William, 673 00:30:47.355 --> 00:30:51.339 and I would really love to hear from you if you had. 674 00:30:51.812 --> 00:30:52.052 Maybe, 675 00:30:52.573 --> 00:30:52.894 let's say, 676 00:30:53.173 --> 00:31:02.525 one tip for somebody who would be listening to the podcast today and would want to change the world in a way or make sure that it delivers more equity. 677 00:31:03.181 --> 00:31:06.470 What would you really recommend with your years of experience? 678 00:31:06.603 --> 00:31:10.775 They are so interesting that you have experience from the telecom sector, 679 00:31:10.931 --> 00:31:12.087 from the marketing sector, 680 00:31:12.493 --> 00:31:13.790 from as a journalist as well. 681 00:31:13.837 --> 00:31:14.775 You worked as a journalist, 682 00:31:14.821 --> 00:31:15.040 right? 683 00:31:15.478 --> 00:31:18.384 So what could people actually do? 684 00:31:19.224 --> 00:31:23.405 I always end the podcast with a positive note because I think it's about empowering people. 685 00:31:23.444 --> 00:31:24.745 It's not only about inspiring, 686 00:31:24.746 --> 00:31:28.409 but also about empowering people to be this change they want to see in the world. 687 00:31:29.104 --> 00:31:29.268 Yeah. 688 00:31:29.768 --> 00:31:30.307 So personally, 689 00:31:30.510 --> 00:31:37.245 I'm always committed to trying to help the next generation figure out how they can play a role in all of this. 690 00:31:38.088 --> 00:31:43.135 And I'm always open to people reaching out to me on LinkedIn or however else. 691 00:31:43.323 --> 00:31:47.823 And I'll always try and find a time to talk to them and support what they're doing. 692 00:31:48.560 --> 00:31:52.964 because we need more people involved in these issues in all aspects. 693 00:31:53.085 --> 00:31:54.828 So that's number one, 694 00:31:54.906 --> 00:31:55.648 just find me. 695 00:31:56.386 --> 00:31:57.691 And if I can help you, 696 00:31:57.707 --> 00:31:58.027 I will. 697 00:31:58.730 --> 00:31:59.394 The other thing is, 698 00:31:59.472 --> 00:32:00.191 I think if you're, 699 00:32:00.511 --> 00:32:01.332 for me anyway, 700 00:32:01.511 --> 00:32:04.855 and this is more from my own personal experience, 701 00:32:04.933 --> 00:32:06.605 I was in China for 15 years. 702 00:32:07.324 --> 00:32:09.855 I watched that transformation of a country. 703 00:32:10.527 --> 00:32:13.964 I think one of the most exciting things for me today, 704 00:32:14.402 --> 00:32:15.293 Don King as well. 705 00:32:15.612 --> 00:32:18.515 but exciting is what's going to happen in Africa. 706 00:32:19.255 --> 00:32:20.818 And if I were 20, 707 00:32:20.958 --> 00:32:24.865 and I say this regularly to my friends when they ask me this question, 708 00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:26.365 if I were my 709 00:32:27.146 --> 00:32:30.185 20-year-old self moving to China back in the day, 710 00:32:31.490 --> 00:32:31.927 today, 711 00:32:32.568 --> 00:32:34.490 would I still go there or would I go somewhere else? 712 00:32:34.630 --> 00:32:34.974 Absolutely, 713 00:32:35.036 --> 00:32:35.740 I'd move to Africa. 714 00:32:35.958 --> 00:32:37.380 I would move to Africa in a heartbeat. 715 00:32:37.458 --> 00:32:38.740 If I were 20 years old today, 716 00:32:38.849 --> 00:32:45.208 I'd move to Africa because I I think that's a place where you can not only do well. 717 00:32:46.008 --> 00:32:46.729 as a career, 718 00:32:47.109 --> 00:32:48.790 but you can do good in a major way. 719 00:32:49.411 --> 00:32:51.673 There's huge resource constraints there, 720 00:32:52.814 --> 00:32:55.075 huge need for additional capacity. 721 00:32:55.982 --> 00:32:57.122 I don't care where you are, 722 00:32:57.177 --> 00:32:57.818 where you're from, 723 00:32:58.419 --> 00:33:04.200 there's impact that you could potentially achieve working with people from those countries in Africa, 724 00:33:04.201 --> 00:33:04.685 of course, 725 00:33:04.872 --> 00:33:06.466 but I would move there in a heartbeat. 726 00:33:06.482 --> 00:33:08.372 And that's for foreigners, 727 00:33:08.404 --> 00:33:08.654 right? 728 00:33:08.810 --> 00:33:12.419 But if you're an African working on issues in Africa. 729 00:33:12.924 --> 00:33:16.764 When you need access to international capital markets or whatever, 730 00:33:17.063 --> 00:33:20.344 that's where people should come to me and I can try and help them. 731 00:33:20.926 --> 00:33:27.270 But this is going to take so much to try and turn Africa into what I think it can and should be, 732 00:33:27.387 --> 00:33:30.989 which is like a really shiny example of what the future looks like. 733 00:33:31.395 --> 00:33:32.770 That's a very young continent. 734 00:33:33.051 --> 00:33:36.255 There's so much potential there and there's so much need there. 735 00:33:36.411 --> 00:33:37.130 So I don't know. 736 00:33:37.131 --> 00:33:38.755 That would be my two cents, 737 00:33:38.817 --> 00:33:39.051 right? 738 00:33:39.270 --> 00:33:40.223 Go somewhere in Africa. 739 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.023 Figure out who's doing what on the ground there, 740 00:33:43.183 --> 00:33:44.304 see how you can contribute, 741 00:33:44.804 --> 00:33:45.683 and you'll make an impact. 742 00:33:45.905 --> 00:33:50.253 And hopefully learn some things and do well in the process. 743 00:33:50.909 --> 00:33:51.487 Yeah, 744 00:33:51.488 --> 00:33:54.277 I've been working with the African organization, 745 00:33:54.495 --> 00:33:56.237 Youth Organization Burkina Faso. 746 00:33:56.597 --> 00:33:57.831 Shout out to my friend, 747 00:33:58.003 --> 00:34:01.097 Jean-Zacteur de l'énergie and Dimitri Titanga. 748 00:34:01.816 --> 00:34:09.284 I am genuinely impressed by their work ethic and about how much they want things to improve for their countries. 749 00:34:09.984 --> 00:34:15.191 And they often tell me how difficult it is for them to access funding because of the, 750 00:34:15.570 --> 00:34:15.851 let's say, 751 00:34:15.871 --> 00:34:17.472 political situation they face. 752 00:34:17.570 --> 00:34:19.535 They are absolutely not responsible for that, 753 00:34:19.855 --> 00:34:26.183 but they want really to make a difference and deal with those kind of challenges as well. 754 00:34:26.574 --> 00:34:27.636 Just one last thought. 755 00:34:27.637 --> 00:34:30.027 So I have a friend who's from Somalia, 756 00:34:30.558 --> 00:34:32.433 and he has a company that's similar to ours, 757 00:34:32.652 --> 00:34:34.465 building renewable energy projects in Somalia, 758 00:34:34.511 --> 00:34:36.246 which is a tough place to do business, 759 00:34:36.324 --> 00:34:36.543 right? 760 00:34:36.793 --> 00:34:38.746 You can imagine there's a lot of there's a lot of. 761 00:34:38.980 --> 00:34:39.881 instability there. 762 00:34:40.761 --> 00:34:42.103 This guy is super smart. 763 00:34:42.244 --> 00:34:44.447 He's built a company on a shoestring. 764 00:34:45.005 --> 00:34:50.892 He's totally bootstrapped it and he's turned it into a company that's growing and is quite successful. 765 00:34:51.611 --> 00:34:53.931 He needs so much help to do, 766 00:34:54.377 --> 00:34:58.994 to get from where he is today to the next phase of where that company could potentially be. 767 00:34:59.447 --> 00:34:59.900 Unfortunately, 768 00:34:59.994 --> 00:35:01.884 we know because of our investors and other things. 769 00:35:02.310 --> 00:35:04.032 We're not in a position to do that with him, 770 00:35:04.492 --> 00:35:05.793 but he's one of these people. 771 00:35:05.834 --> 00:35:10.199 And there's so many of them in Africa who are onto something, 772 00:35:10.636 --> 00:35:16.543 doing something really impactful already and need that additional support to get to the next stage. 773 00:35:17.207 --> 00:35:18.464 And that's what I mean when I was like, 774 00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:22.386 find these people because they're out there and they're doing amazing things already and they need help. 775 00:35:23.277 --> 00:35:23.605 Exactly. 776 00:35:23.730 --> 00:35:25.433 So it's all about connecting the dots. 777 00:35:25.589 --> 00:35:26.199 And that's what, 778 00:35:26.339 --> 00:35:26.996 at the end of the day, 779 00:35:27.168 --> 00:35:28.043 this podcast is. 780 00:35:28.722 --> 00:35:29.002 Please, 781 00:35:29.042 --> 00:35:29.663 listeners, 782 00:35:29.784 --> 00:35:33.088 contact William if you need some tips or some ideas. 783 00:35:33.147 --> 00:35:36.448 I will put the article you wrote in the show notes because it's very informative. 784 00:35:36.752 --> 00:35:37.166 And yes, 785 00:35:37.330 --> 00:35:39.815 I guess it's also about at our own level, 786 00:35:40.073 --> 00:35:47.807 really try to challenge the status quo as much as we can and really get into knowing each other because that's what makes a difference, 787 00:35:47.823 --> 00:35:48.026 right? 788 00:35:48.104 --> 00:35:51.307 It's also a lot of human to human connection that makes a difference. 789 00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:52.573 Thank you so much, 790 00:35:52.932 --> 00:35:53.245 William, 791 00:35:53.307 --> 00:35:55.682 for this really inspiring conversation. 792 00:35:56.135 --> 00:35:56.682 Thank you so much. 793 00:35:59.206 --> 00:36:02.167 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. 794 00:36:02.427 --> 00:36:10.306 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward thinking mouths out there. 795 00:36:10.970 --> 00:36:11.728 I'm Maureen Connelly, 796 00:36:11.946 --> 00:36:13.610 your host from Policy Consultancy, 797 00:36:13.673 --> 00:36:14.751 Next Energy Consumer, 798 00:36:15.126 --> 00:36:18.595 and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, 799 00:36:18.970 --> 00:36:21.095 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. 800 00:36:21.798 --> 00:36:23.032 Since 2021, 801 00:36:23.204 --> 00:36:24.688 we've shared countless stories, 802 00:36:24.845 --> 00:36:25.329 insights, 803 00:36:25.345 --> 00:36:28.485 and ideas over more than 40 episodes. 804 00:36:28.894 --> 00:36:32.036 And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. 805 00:36:32.759 --> 00:36:37.044 If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, 806 00:36:37.419 --> 00:36:39.021 why not support us on Patreon? 807 00:36:39.646 --> 00:36:42.927 Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. 808 00:36:43.450 --> 00:36:45.231 Check out the show notes for the link. 809 00:36:45.950 --> 00:36:46.356 And hey, 810 00:36:46.825 --> 00:36:52.497 if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, 811 00:36:52.981 --> 00:36:55.856 we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. 812 00:36:56.302 --> 00:37:02.342 It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. 813 00:37:03.323 --> 00:37:04.745 Shout out to the fantastic 814 00:37:05.127 --> 00:37:10.627 Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, 815 00:37:10.987 --> 00:37:13.432 making every episode a joy to listen to. 816 00:37:14.323 --> 00:37:15.354 If you haven't already, 817 00:37:15.604 --> 00:37:19.041 make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. 818 00:37:19.526 --> 00:37:23.026 And if you think a friend or colleague could benefit from our episode, 819 00:37:23.401 --> 00:37:25.010 we'd love for you to spread the word. 820 00:37:25.434 --> 00:37:29.639 It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. 821 00:37:30.158 --> 00:37:31.459 Sharing is caring. 822 00:37:32.022 --> 00:37:37.162 Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. 823 00:37:37.482 --> 00:37:39.389 Thanks once again for lending your ears. 824 00:37:39.529 --> 00:37:40.272 Until next time.