WEBVTT

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So those local communities,

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farmer-to-farmer networks are so,

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so important.

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And I think it's really uplifting because farmers should be our heroes.

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We often blame them for things,

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for the cost of food or for climate change and methane or whatever.

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But without farmers,

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we would all be dead.

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I think the main message is start small,

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but please start.

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Hi,

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Stephen.

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Hi.

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Thank you so much for welcoming me here in this beautiful vineyard.

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So for a little bit of context,

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maybe you could tell us about where we are.

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Yeah,

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sure.

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And thanks for having me here.

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So we are at Domaine Mirabeau,

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which is a farm that we bought about...

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about five and a half years ago.

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We are just north of Saint-Tropez in the south of France.

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So we are on the Plan de Mour,

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which is a plain just before the Massif de Mour mountain range,

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which is what shields us from the Mediterranean.

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So it's one of the most beautiful parts of the world that I could imagine living in.

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Yeah,

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it's such a beautiful place.

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And you've been very kind to welcome me here in the vineyard and spend the last couple of days here filming and recording prior to this conversation.

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And yeah,

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I just fell in love with the place.

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Great.

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And you met some of the farming team yesterday as well.

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And you've seen some of the work we're doing.

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I did.

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Yeah.

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That must have been interesting for you as well.

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Yeah.

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Maybe you could start by introducing yourself briefly.

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Sure.

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So...

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You can probably tell from my accent,

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I'm an Englishman,

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I'm not a Frenchman.

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I have been in the wine trade in the early part of my career.

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I became obsessed with wine when I was doing my gap year in Australia in the

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1980s, so long before you were born.

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And I became fixated with the beauty of the wine regions,

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the wonderful alignment of the vineyards and the vines and the beautiful products they produced.

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So I started...

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in the wine trade in my when i left university doing delivery driving delivery trucks around london set up my wine company when i was 24 um decided to get out of the wine business to pay off the debts i'd accumulated during my

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20s and went to telecoms in in my

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30s um so between 30 and 45 years old i was working in telecoms i met my wife and i really missed the wine business and i said i want to get back into the wine business but i want to go and own a vineyard i want to make wine

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And she thought I was crazy and said it to all my friends.

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But after 10 years of persuading her,

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we finally sold the house.

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And that's the only money we had was from the proceeds from selling our house.

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So I was undercapitalized.

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I didn't speak any French and never made wine before.

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But nonetheless,

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we moved down here in 2009.

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And we just made our 15th vintage.

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We created a wine brand called Mirabeau.

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So we are Maison Mirabeau.

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We're now selling in close to 50 countries around the world.

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our biggest markets are uk usa and australia although we're selling a lot in europe as well but it's just been an incredible journey so you moved from england to france um

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And being so passionate about wine,

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why didn't you first buy a vineyard?

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Good question,

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because that's what I thought I would be doing.

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But one of the things

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I did a lot of,

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and I'm very grateful I did,

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was talk to people who knew more about this than me.

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And

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I met a guy called Matthew Stubbs,

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who's actually another Englishman in the south of France.

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And he said,

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Stephen,

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what experience do you have in farming?

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I said,

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well,

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none.

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He said,

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look,

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can I explain to you about the three Vs?

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I said,

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well,

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what are the three Vs?

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He said,

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well,

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viticulture,

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you know,

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growing grapes.

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It's very,

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very difficult.

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Do you know how to drive a tractor,

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Stephen?

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Do you know how to look after a vineyard?

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No,

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okay,

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that's true,

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I don't.

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He said the second V is vinification,

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is turning grapes into wine.

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That itself is a science and very technical,

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and you need to learn about that as well if you want to do the whole thing.

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He said the third V is vendre,

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selling.

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He said that's the bit that...

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farmers struggle to do,

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winemakers struggle to do sometimes.

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And there's an obsession in France,

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particularly,

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about owning the whole supply chain,

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doing everything yourself.

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So,

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you know,

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I see people at wine fairs who've still got mud on their boots because they were driving tractors the day before.

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So he said,

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you know,

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if you can create a brand,

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find the best farmers to work with,

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you know,

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get a really good winemaker on board,

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but don't obsess about owning the whole supply chain.

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He said,

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that's what you should do.

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So that's what I did.

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So we created a brand.

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Mirabeau.

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We started to find the best growers in this region to work with.

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We found a really good winemaker and blender.

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And we created the brand and put the wines in the bottle and started selling.

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And that's where,

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I mean,

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that was really good advice,

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I think,

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because that's where we put all our energy and all our capital.

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Because obviously farming is very capital intensive as well.

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But we basically built the brand first,

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and then after 10 years of brand building,

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we raised some money to buy the farm.

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So we did it the inverse way.

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I see.

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Yeah,

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you started with the third V,

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moved to the second one,

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and now finally the first one,

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which is actually growing grapes for wine.

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I often hear that viticulture is a very intensive farming activity.

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It's one of the agricultural activity that uses the most pesticides,

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a lot of soil disturbance and erosion.

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Is that true and if so why is that?

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So it is true,

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sadly.

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The plant we used for the grapes here in all wine production is Vitis vinifera,

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and it is very susceptible to fungi.

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So we have in particular mildew,

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so downy mildew and powdery mildew,

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which are big problems,

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especially in damp regions.

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So like in northern France,

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a real big challenge.

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And in the UK as well,

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where we're growing a lot of grapes now.

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So in itself...

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we have that challenge of fungi disease on vines.

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You then add into that the monoculture practice that most vineyards still practice around the world.

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It's unstable,

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so disease is going to be rife.

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So that's why

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I think a regenerative environment provides many more opportunities to control disease.

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But we'll still have the challenge with vitis vinifera being prone to disease,

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which is why now people are working on hybrid.

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vines,

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hybrid grape varieties,

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so that we have more disease resistance.

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And also,

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oftentimes it's grown in marginal areas,

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areas which haven't been selected for crop practice.

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And it can be quite tough.

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So we often,

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like here for example,

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have big extremes in climate.

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So it can be incredibly dry.

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you know,

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then have floods and then have forest fires and so on.

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So it's a challenging plant to grow at the best of times,

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but then you add on all those climate variations.

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It's a real challenge.

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Yeah,

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okay.

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At what point of your...

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journey into wine did you learn about regenerative and you had this maybe this light bulb moment that's that you had to change we had to change as a society the way we we grow graves for wine it was a very specific light bulb moment um so

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when we bought the farm and this is going to sound crazy but when we bought the farm here we spent five years looking for the right property to buy and this was the 40th property we looked at we thought this is it it's surrounded by nature reserve it's

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beautiful we knew that it was making great wines um we didn't do any soil analysis or anything like that which in retrospect is like crazy um but we were naive um brits in france trying to do something different um and

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we knew you wanted to farm organically we knew this is the minimum we should be doing um and so we actually converted straight away to organic farming here but i suddenly realized that organic was going to give me a list of things i shouldn't do you

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It wasn't going to give me a direction that I should be taking the farm,

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and it wasn't going to repair the soils.

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It was just going to stop doing the bad things.

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And I was sent an article by a friend of mine,

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written in the New York Times by the wine journalist from the New York Times called Eric Asimov.

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And he did a feature on a lady in Oregon,

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a wine farmer in Oregon called Mimi Castile.

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And she had amazing,

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they were amazing pictures.

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I was drawn to the pictures she had.

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ducks and sheep and all sorts of wildlife in the vineyard.

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There was no bare earth anywhere.

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It was a very different picture to what I'm used to here in Provence,

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which is bare earth with the monoculture.

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I thought,

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wow,

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this is amazing.

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So I've read the article.

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I then reached out to her and

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Mimi basically drew me into the world of regen.

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And she said,

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look,

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this isn't being taught anywhere.

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be careful,

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Stephen,

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because you might be considered a bit wacky.

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She said she was often considered to be an outlier when she started farming like this.

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It's rather untraditional to let your vineyard become overgrown.

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by nature,

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although clearly we're doing it in a controlled way,

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but still it's bucking the trend.

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The trend of those beautifully manicured vineyards in Napa or Bordeaux where there's only one plant growing.

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There's no weed or mauvaise herbe,

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as we say,

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a bad plant in France.

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Even that terminology is all wrong now you understand the world of Regen.

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So yeah,

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she basically helped me get going,

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but also the same.

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time I thought,

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well,

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as I'm learning this,

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I want to share it with others.

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So we actually also met a

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Danish permaculture expert who happens to have a house in the village I live in.

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And we decided to create a nonprofit to share our learnings with others.

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So it's a bit of a mouthful.

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It's called the Regenerative Viticulture Foundation.

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But the idea is everything that we learn,

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everyone who we meet who's doing this,

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let's share what we learn with everybody else out there.

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And it's been a real eye-opener.

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I would love to start by focusing more specifically on this place right here,

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this vineyard that you bought now about five years ago.

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First transitioned organic and now to regenerative.

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So maybe you could tell me more about the...

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the journey so far?

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Yes,

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well,

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it's not been a straight line.

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It's not been without its challenges because we had put on the farm basically somebody in our business,

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a friend of ours,

262
00:10:47.287 --> 00:10:51.288
who we knew who was great at driving tractors,

263
00:10:52.009 --> 00:10:57.711
but he wasn't a farmer because we had a consultant advising us on farming practices.

264
00:10:58.412 --> 00:11:01.593
So that was fairly straightforward when it was organic.

265
00:11:01.909 --> 00:11:04.390
because organic is a checklist almost of things you don't do.

266
00:11:05.591 --> 00:11:08.333
It wasn't giving you that framework of what you should be doing.

267
00:11:08.973 --> 00:11:11.695
So to say to the consultant,

268
00:11:11.775 --> 00:11:12.095
actually,

269
00:11:12.115 --> 00:11:13.335
I don't want to just farm organically,

270
00:11:13.355 --> 00:11:14.436
I want to farm regeneratively,

271
00:11:16.937 --> 00:11:18.198
he was saying all the right things.

272
00:11:18.258 --> 00:11:18.398
Yeah,

273
00:11:18.478 --> 00:11:18.698
great,

274
00:11:18.738 --> 00:11:19.039
Stephen,

275
00:11:19.119 --> 00:11:20.199
I'm really into that,

276
00:11:20.219 --> 00:11:21.200
and let's do this together.

277
00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:25.162
But the amount of arguments we had over the years and continue to have,

278
00:11:25.162 --> 00:11:30.105
because I wanted to go hardcore regen across the whole farm,

279
00:11:30.801 --> 00:11:32.542
as soon as I knew about REGENT,

280
00:11:33.622 --> 00:11:34.122
and he was like,

281
00:11:34.182 --> 00:11:34.422
Steven,

282
00:11:34.422 --> 00:11:36.062
you can't let the vines go cold turkey.

283
00:11:36.583 --> 00:11:37.163
Let's go this,

284
00:11:37.423 --> 00:11:40.084
let's do this slowly and do it in a controlled way.

285
00:11:41.544 --> 00:11:43.865
And we still need a plow after the combine,

286
00:11:44.525 --> 00:11:46.425
after the machine harvest has been over the vineyard.

287
00:11:47.205 --> 00:11:49.786
We then have to decompact the soil with a deep plow.

288
00:11:50.786 --> 00:11:51.066
I'm like,

289
00:11:51.066 --> 00:11:51.187
no,

290
00:11:51.247 --> 00:11:52.207
we mustn't plow,

291
00:11:52.207 --> 00:11:53.087
we've got to stop plowing.

292
00:11:53.587 --> 00:11:56.128
So it wasn't straightforward.

293
00:11:57.508 --> 00:12:00.169
And because there's no guidebook

294
00:12:00.605 --> 00:12:00.845
really,

295
00:12:01.005 --> 00:12:02.586
as to how to farm regeneratively.

296
00:12:04.286 --> 00:12:05.686
And we were doing the best we could,

297
00:12:05.686 --> 00:12:06.807
and that conflict was really good,

298
00:12:06.847 --> 00:12:08.447
because I probably would have killed my vines.

299
00:12:09.187 --> 00:12:10.848
If I'd suddenly stopped ploughing,

300
00:12:11.808 --> 00:12:13.269
the root systems were very,

301
00:12:13.329 --> 00:12:16.169
very close to the surface because they were used as surface-based fertilizers.

302
00:12:17.690 --> 00:12:19.310
So if I'd stopped ploughing,

303
00:12:19.370 --> 00:12:20.371
introduced cover crops,

304
00:12:20.811 --> 00:12:21.991
I could have killed the whole vineyard.

305
00:12:22.591 --> 00:12:28.253
And that's the reality of not going at this too fast and in an uncontrolled way.

306
00:12:29.129 --> 00:12:30.510
So he was right to slow me down.

307
00:12:31.170 --> 00:12:31.871
In hindsight,

308
00:12:31.891 --> 00:12:43.077
I probably would have done one parcel or one block at the beginning and tried a few practices on that and then figured out how I can then scale to the rest of the vineyard.

309
00:12:44.418 --> 00:12:45.078
In particular,

310
00:12:45.479 --> 00:12:47.300
understanding what practices are working well.

311
00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:49.601
And for example,

312
00:12:49.701 --> 00:12:52.343
with looking at my big pile of compost over there,

313
00:12:53.023 --> 00:12:56.045
I would have budgeted much more carefully for compost.

314
00:12:56.465 --> 00:12:58.126
because I think that's now an integral part of,

315
00:12:58.206 --> 00:13:01.608
or probably the most important thing we can do to increase the soil organic matter.

316
00:13:03.089 --> 00:13:03.209
So

317
00:13:03.609 --> 00:13:04.730
I would have chosen a parcel.

318
00:13:05.710 --> 00:13:11.174
I would have done better analysis of,

319
00:13:11.334 --> 00:13:11.614
you know,

320
00:13:11.694 --> 00:13:12.555
before I started,

321
00:13:12.575 --> 00:13:14.776
and then comparing with parcels that are very similar,

322
00:13:14.796 --> 00:13:15.997
but I'm not doing regen on,

323
00:13:17.257 --> 00:13:18.638
to really understand the differences.

324
00:13:19.038 --> 00:13:19.379
But look,

325
00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:19.759
we're still,

326
00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:20.039
it's,

327
00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:21.640
I think with regen,

328
00:13:21.660 --> 00:13:22.841
it's always work in progress.

329
00:13:23.649 --> 00:13:23.909
you know,

330
00:13:24.089 --> 00:13:25.450
nature is fickle.

331
00:13:25.690 --> 00:13:28.572
The challenges that she throws at us every year are different.

332
00:13:29.112 --> 00:13:32.154
But we can always find solutions within the natural system.

333
00:13:32.674 --> 00:13:32.795
So

334
00:13:33.255 --> 00:13:37.057
I guess the biggest challenge has actually been around not just pace of change,

335
00:13:37.117 --> 00:13:41.180
but also bringing my team on board as well.

336
00:13:42.160 --> 00:13:49.745
And that's where we talk a lot in the whole Regen world about including your farming team and everybody around the whole Regen movement.

337
00:13:50.585 --> 00:13:53.367
They have to be knowledgeable,

338
00:13:53.467 --> 00:13:54.868
they have to be open-minded about it,

339
00:13:55.108 --> 00:13:57.070
and we have to bring the whole team along as well,

340
00:13:57.170 --> 00:13:59.231
because it's very observational.

341
00:13:59.231 --> 00:14:02.134
We have to have people who are looking out at things,

342
00:14:02.194 --> 00:14:06.156
looking out at any disease challenges you might have that you hadn't spotted.

343
00:14:06.837 --> 00:14:11.300
And if the farmer's just getting in his tractor every morning and doing his thing and not really engaged,

344
00:14:11.901 --> 00:14:12.121
then...

345
00:14:12.933 --> 00:14:16.275
he or she isn't going to be a very good supporter.

346
00:14:16.876 --> 00:14:21.459
So bringing the people on as well is another thing that's been probably the biggest challenge,

347
00:14:21.499 --> 00:14:21.779
actually,

348
00:14:22.219 --> 00:14:23.620
because you're breaking convention.

349
00:14:25.682 --> 00:14:27.583
This isn't being taught at agricultural colleges.

350
00:14:27.743 --> 00:14:28.263
around the world,

351
00:14:28.524 --> 00:14:29.945
at least not in any great scale.

352
00:14:31.005 --> 00:14:32.566
Oftentimes in this part of the world,

353
00:14:33.707 --> 00:14:39.191
we've been farming vines here for more than 2,000 years as a species,

354
00:14:40.512 --> 00:14:42.894
and clearly we're very set in our ways.

355
00:14:43.554 --> 00:14:47.297
And oftentimes vineyards are inherited from families.

356
00:14:48.037 --> 00:14:51.540
And if your father's given you a vineyard and you say to him,

357
00:14:51.620 --> 00:14:52.041
thanks dad,

358
00:14:52.061 --> 00:14:53.102
but you've been doing it all wrong.

359
00:14:53.662 --> 00:14:55.203
I'm going to let the whole thing become overrun.

360
00:14:56.424 --> 00:14:58.967
That can lead to some real social pressures as well.

361
00:14:59.427 --> 00:15:00.308
So it's,

362
00:15:01.209 --> 00:15:03.471
which is another reason why I think you should start slow.

363
00:15:04.612 --> 00:15:05.913
It's a big thing to change.

364
00:15:06.193 --> 00:15:06.413
Okay,

365
00:15:06.593 --> 00:15:06.713
so...

366
00:15:08.130 --> 00:15:09.751
What about the team that you're working with here?

367
00:15:09.791 --> 00:15:13.032
Were they already on the vineyard when you bought the place and started?

368
00:15:13.312 --> 00:15:18.554
And how did they react to having to change the way they've been farming their whole life?

369
00:15:20.075 --> 00:15:25.817
I bought the team in here and when we knew we were going to go organic,

370
00:15:25.817 --> 00:15:29.779
we thought it's relatively straightforward because it's very easy to follow that framework.

371
00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:34.661
So it's been a challenge to bring them on that journey,

372
00:15:34.661 --> 00:15:35.201
to be honest.

373
00:15:37.246 --> 00:15:37.886
But because

374
00:15:38.487 --> 00:15:40.508
I'm impatient and I'm not a farmer,

375
00:15:40.768 --> 00:15:41.008
you know,

376
00:15:41.368 --> 00:15:43.169
I'm a townie from London and

377
00:15:43.989 --> 00:15:45.290
I want to see things happen quickly.

378
00:15:46.330 --> 00:15:47.391
But you can't do that with nature.

379
00:15:47.891 --> 00:15:48.951
And you can't do that with other people either.

380
00:15:48.951 --> 00:15:49.652
You know,

381
00:15:49.792 --> 00:15:53.594
especially if it's kind of shifting a paradigm and not what they're used to.

382
00:15:54.594 --> 00:15:59.556
But one of the fun things happened after a couple of years is the people that used to live here on the farm,

383
00:16:01.197 --> 00:16:02.698
they came back to collect some post.

384
00:16:03.990 --> 00:16:04.431
And they said,

385
00:16:04.491 --> 00:16:04.892
Stephen,

386
00:16:05.273 --> 00:16:06.556
what have you done with the bird noise?

387
00:16:06.716 --> 00:16:07.538
It's deafening.

388
00:16:08.079 --> 00:16:09.081
We never had that before.

389
00:16:09.823 --> 00:16:11.286
And that was completely unprompted.

390
00:16:11.727 --> 00:16:14.533
But simply because we'd planted a cover crop,

391
00:16:14.673 --> 00:16:14.814
we'd...

392
00:16:15.074 --> 00:16:31.401
been trying to bring nature into the vineyard the birds have come into and that was the most heartwarming thing that i've ever had and the best compliment that we can have that they noticed the increase in nature and i think it's become a much more beautiful place than it was before as well yeah i can i can imagine um

393
00:16:31.541 --> 00:16:44.546
this morning when i was setting up i saw a big flock of birds right here right behind me in the in the vines and i thought this this must be a sign of region regenerative agriculture happening because if you were to spray

394
00:16:45.086 --> 00:16:48.228
very heavily your vines with chemicals,

395
00:16:48.769 --> 00:16:52.912
you probably wouldn't have birds because you wouldn't have insects for them to eat and the environment would be toxic.

396
00:16:52.932 --> 00:16:54.633
So they'd probably be avoiding the place.

397
00:16:54.633 --> 00:16:56.214
So that's exactly what happened.

398
00:16:56.254 --> 00:16:56.394
Yeah.

399
00:16:56.694 --> 00:16:57.114
And it's just,

400
00:16:57.134 --> 00:17:01.177
it was so nice for that feedback because it was toxic before.

401
00:17:01.597 --> 00:17:11.764
It was sprayed the crap out of every year with all these chemicals and pesticides and fungicides and herbicides and synthetic fertilizers.

402
00:17:12.265 --> 00:17:13.886
And the biggest shock I got is,

403
00:17:14.186 --> 00:17:14.787
when I saw,

404
00:17:15.647 --> 00:17:19.271
we took a photograph from a drone of the vineyard in winter.

405
00:17:20.251 --> 00:17:20.372
And,

406
00:17:20.512 --> 00:17:20.752
you know,

407
00:17:20.752 --> 00:17:21.613
we're surrounded here,

408
00:17:21.873 --> 00:17:22.534
as you can see,

409
00:17:22.834 --> 00:17:23.795
by a nature reserve.

410
00:17:24.155 --> 00:17:24.275
So,

411
00:17:24.695 --> 00:17:24.936
you know,

412
00:17:25.056 --> 00:17:25.836
dense forests.

413
00:17:26.437 --> 00:17:28.099
And when you look at the vineyard from above,

414
00:17:28.099 --> 00:17:32.142
you realize this was cut out of the forest to grow vines.

415
00:17:32.823 --> 00:17:35.565
And when there's nothing else growing because it's winter,

416
00:17:36.626 --> 00:17:37.847
it's like the moon's surface.

417
00:17:39.128 --> 00:17:39.369
You know,

418
00:17:39.349 --> 00:17:40.670
the ground was rock solid.

419
00:17:41.334 --> 00:17:42.295
Whenever the rains came,

420
00:17:42.295 --> 00:17:45.036
it just eroded a few more millimeters of topsoil.

421
00:17:46.217 --> 00:17:46.917
That's what made me think,

422
00:17:47.058 --> 00:17:47.538
my goodness,

423
00:17:47.598 --> 00:17:52.060
we've cut out a piece of nature to impose our will on that land to make wine,

424
00:17:52.080 --> 00:17:53.761
to make grapes for wine.

425
00:17:54.782 --> 00:17:55.322
How dare we?

426
00:17:55.622 --> 00:17:59.465
Or at least how dare we do this without actually being more respectful for nature?

427
00:17:59.945 --> 00:18:02.767
So the fact that we've been able to bring it back in through various techniques,

428
00:18:04.027 --> 00:18:04.868
it feels right,

429
00:18:05.528 --> 00:18:07.489
but I'm also convinced it makes better fruit,

430
00:18:07.769 --> 00:18:08.350
better wine.

431
00:18:08.850 --> 00:18:11.932
and for a better way of living down here on the vineyard.

432
00:18:12.273 --> 00:18:12.413
Yeah,

433
00:18:12.833 --> 00:18:12.953
yeah.

434
00:18:13.894 --> 00:18:17.477
So this topic of chemical use of pesticides and fungicides,

435
00:18:18.017 --> 00:18:18.658
more specifically,

436
00:18:19.078 --> 00:18:22.540
I read when I was doing research before this conversation,

437
00:18:22.601 --> 00:18:22.781
that

438
00:18:23.641 --> 00:18:27.704
I think the stats was that viticulture represents 3%

439
00:18:27.844 --> 00:18:28.345
of total

440
00:18:28.725 --> 00:18:29.666
EU agriculture.

441
00:18:30.254 --> 00:18:30.474
land,

442
00:18:30.754 --> 00:18:31.935
in terms of land surface.

443
00:18:32.596 --> 00:18:34.477
But it uses between 15 and 20%

444
00:18:34.777 --> 00:18:36.358
of total pesticide use.

445
00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:38.660
Which sounds huge,

446
00:18:39.040 --> 00:18:39.320
crazy,

447
00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:39.600
right?

448
00:18:40.321 --> 00:18:43.003
So it is a huge part of the usual process.

449
00:18:43.403 --> 00:18:44.384
There must be reasons for that.

450
00:18:45.024 --> 00:18:48.485
And I'm wondering how you managed to do without it.

451
00:18:49.285 --> 00:18:52.687
What were the methods that you've used and what worked and what didn't?

452
00:18:52.727 --> 00:18:54.387
And maybe you could tell us a little bit more about that.

453
00:18:55.408 --> 00:18:55.568
Yes,

454
00:18:55.608 --> 00:18:55.788
well,

455
00:18:56.028 --> 00:18:57.628
it's the problem,

456
00:18:58.449 --> 00:18:59.769
as we talked about before,

457
00:18:59.789 --> 00:19:02.670
about fungal disease on vitis vinifera vines.

458
00:19:03.430 --> 00:19:05.811
But because we were already organic here,

459
00:19:06.091 --> 00:19:09.232
we'd already decided we shouldn't use any synthetics.

460
00:19:09.772 --> 00:19:14.094
So we are constrained to using permissible...

461
00:19:14.462 --> 00:19:14.902
products,

462
00:19:15.022 --> 00:19:17.723
which is basically copper sulfate mixes.

463
00:19:17.723 --> 00:19:18.764
We call it the Bordeaux mix.

464
00:19:20.044 --> 00:19:23.166
So we'll spray that against mildew.

465
00:19:24.806 --> 00:19:26.547
But it's suboptimal as well.

466
00:19:26.547 --> 00:19:26.727
I mean,

467
00:19:26.747 --> 00:19:28.248
the sulfur element works well,

468
00:19:28.788 --> 00:19:31.289
but with downy mildew and the use of copper,

469
00:19:31.809 --> 00:19:32.049
you know,

470
00:19:32.089 --> 00:19:32.649
copper is,

471
00:19:33.370 --> 00:19:33.930
by definition,

472
00:19:34.190 --> 00:19:37.151
it's killing fungus and fungi.

473
00:19:37.691 --> 00:19:39.512
And that's what we need in the soil.

474
00:19:40.873 --> 00:19:42.714
That mycorrhizal fungi network,

475
00:19:42.954 --> 00:19:43.754
which is the biggest.

476
00:19:44.254 --> 00:19:48.575
thing I learned about Regen at the beginning is what we need to preserve.

477
00:19:49.235 --> 00:19:53.837
And so even organic methods are not necessarily best for soil.

478
00:19:54.417 --> 00:19:54.997
And that's where

479
00:19:55.697 --> 00:19:57.758
Regen itself is carving its own path.

480
00:19:58.518 --> 00:19:59.058
We're trying to find,

481
00:19:59.278 --> 00:19:59.538
obviously,

482
00:19:59.618 --> 00:20:05.139
nature-based solutions for giving us the right disease-resistant crops.

483
00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:06.160
But actually,

484
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:07.100
you know,

485
00:20:07.784 --> 00:20:10.826
building the resilience of the plant's own immune system.

486
00:20:11.726 --> 00:20:12.567
And so that's something that,

487
00:20:12.567 --> 00:20:12.847
again,

488
00:20:13.067 --> 00:20:19.290
I think it's very interesting when you see the context of viticulture and the way it's been taught over the last,

489
00:20:20.151 --> 00:20:20.531
I would say,

490
00:20:20.751 --> 00:20:21.712
couple of hundred years,

491
00:20:22.192 --> 00:20:23.853
but certainly the last 50 years or so.

492
00:20:25.214 --> 00:20:33.258
People are being taught at wine schools or agricultural colleges that the purpose of the soil is to hold the vine vertical.

493
00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:36.120
You go and buy everything else from the wholesaler.

494
00:20:37.208 --> 00:20:40.670
And that's been taught until fairly recently,

495
00:20:40.690 --> 00:20:41.150
I would say.

496
00:20:41.910 --> 00:20:47.493
So we still have this legacy mindset of we control the vineyard.

497
00:20:47.773 --> 00:20:48.914
Man controls the vineyard.

498
00:20:49.194 --> 00:20:52.495
We kill everything in the ecosystem and in the soil,

499
00:20:52.515 --> 00:20:55.777
and we just add the nutrition that the plant needs to make sure it grows.

500
00:20:56.137 --> 00:20:56.277
Yeah,

501
00:20:56.817 --> 00:20:57.378
exactly that.

502
00:20:57.738 --> 00:20:58.938
So you can buy everything you need.

503
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:00.379
And it's really...

504
00:21:01.420 --> 00:21:01.580
It's...

505
00:21:02.216 --> 00:21:02.876
If you think about it,

506
00:21:02.876 --> 00:21:03.357
it's horrible.

507
00:21:03.357 --> 00:21:03.597
You know,

508
00:21:04.357 --> 00:21:06.779
every day you're out there killing everything that's not your vine,

509
00:21:07.239 --> 00:21:09.500
buying products that will enhance the life of your vine,

510
00:21:09.560 --> 00:21:10.421
buying these,

511
00:21:10.421 --> 00:21:10.601
you know,

512
00:21:12.001 --> 00:21:13.362
fertilizers and everything else.

513
00:21:13.882 --> 00:21:14.683
And it's just so wrong.

514
00:21:14.783 --> 00:21:16.044
So that lack of balance,

515
00:21:16.064 --> 00:21:16.324
I think,

516
00:21:16.344 --> 00:21:19.185
has led to a lot of the problems we have with disease.

517
00:21:20.166 --> 00:21:20.486
And so,

518
00:21:20.806 --> 00:21:21.046
you know,

519
00:21:21.307 --> 00:21:23.288
that's why the regenerative approach is far more practical.

520
00:21:23.348 --> 00:21:23.468
But,

521
00:21:23.628 --> 00:21:23.868
you know,

522
00:21:24.228 --> 00:21:30.592
we have to forgive our forefathers for not knowing more about soil because we've only learnt.

523
00:21:31.308 --> 00:21:33.629
so much about soil in the last 20 or 30 years.

524
00:21:34.709 --> 00:21:38.090
So not putting bad stuff in the organic way was,

525
00:21:38.251 --> 00:21:38.391
yeah,

526
00:21:38.451 --> 00:21:39.731
that's the best we knew at the time.

527
00:21:39.731 --> 00:21:43.072
But now we know about the soil microbiome.

528
00:21:43.072 --> 00:21:46.273
We now know the importance of keeping carbon in soil,

529
00:21:46.333 --> 00:21:48.334
about nurturing that life underground.

530
00:21:49.014 --> 00:21:51.755
It gives us a different perspective about what happens above ground.

531
00:21:52.156 --> 00:21:52.296
Yeah.

532
00:21:53.892 --> 00:21:58.121
even get surprised sometimes that we've managed to keep going this way for so long,

533
00:21:59.204 --> 00:22:00.125
destroying soils.

534
00:22:01.568 --> 00:22:03.189
having massive levels of erosion,

535
00:22:03.869 --> 00:22:07.430
having soils that are very much depleted of nutrients,

536
00:22:07.810 --> 00:22:08.970
of microbiology,

537
00:22:10.151 --> 00:22:10.951
of topsoil even,

538
00:22:11.231 --> 00:22:19.053
and that we still manage to somehow by adding enough mechanization and enough chemicals to keep it going.

539
00:22:20.754 --> 00:22:27.896
Do you think that's something that can go on forever if we don't transition to more regen-minded farming practices?

540
00:22:28.576 --> 00:22:28.796
soon?

541
00:22:28.996 --> 00:22:31.817
Or is there a stop at some point to all of this?

542
00:22:32.377 --> 00:22:32.537
Yeah,

543
00:22:34.418 --> 00:22:36.198
we're going to fall off a cliff edge at some point.

544
00:22:36.838 --> 00:22:42.340
There are various statistics about how many more harvests we have left before the soil is so depleted we can't grow anything anymore.

545
00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:43.560
Meanwhile,

546
00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:51.923
a lot of the external inputs that we're making from petrol-based products or we're mining from the land,

547
00:22:52.223 --> 00:22:54.303
they're getting more expensive and they're running out too.

548
00:22:55.044 --> 00:22:56.524
So this has got to stop.

549
00:22:57.805 --> 00:23:01.468
And a lot of farmers have realized this for years,

550
00:23:02.589 --> 00:23:08.235
that this kind of industrial and mechanized farming is proving to be very,

551
00:23:08.315 --> 00:23:08.976
very damaging.

552
00:23:09.817 --> 00:23:11.799
But we knew this 100 years ago in the States.

553
00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:12.620
We had the Dust Bowl,

554
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:13.821
where we had all these,

555
00:23:13.921 --> 00:23:16.163
the tops are flying off and landing on the White House,

556
00:23:16.183 --> 00:23:18.766
and even they woke up to the fact this doesn't seem right.

557
00:23:20.328 --> 00:23:20.468
But...

558
00:23:20.828 --> 00:23:21.008
Yeah,

559
00:23:21.008 --> 00:23:23.871
we need to accelerate the adoption of farming for the future,

560
00:23:24.691 --> 00:23:26.393
and farming in this nature-positive way,

561
00:23:26.933 --> 00:23:31.016
because as damaging as we've been with our farming methods,

562
00:23:31.597 --> 00:23:33.178
Mother Nature is very forgiving.

563
00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:35.780
We don't deserve her forgiveness,

564
00:23:35.820 --> 00:23:36.161
frankly.

565
00:23:36.721 --> 00:23:41.185
When you think about all the species we've pushed to extinction over the last 50 or so years,

566
00:23:41.985 --> 00:23:43.587
why should she be so forgiving?

567
00:23:43.587 --> 00:23:44.187
But she is,

568
00:23:44.868 --> 00:23:46.369
and soil can rebuild itself.

569
00:23:47.490 --> 00:23:49.832
One of the books I read early on was from dirt.

570
00:23:50.252 --> 00:23:51.513
to soil by Gabe Brown.

571
00:23:52.073 --> 00:23:53.174
And it's amazing to think,

572
00:23:53.394 --> 00:23:53.634
you know,

573
00:23:53.614 --> 00:23:57.597
when you start to actually have a proactive mindset about how to work with nature,

574
00:23:57.637 --> 00:23:58.698
how to build your soil,

575
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.602
and how much better it is for everything around the farm,

576
00:24:04.302 --> 00:24:05.563
in the sense of crop yield,

577
00:24:05.603 --> 00:24:06.504
disease resistance,

578
00:24:07.284 --> 00:24:08.285
finances as well.

579
00:24:09.086 --> 00:24:10.046
As far as I can see,

580
00:24:10.667 --> 00:24:14.129
there's nothing to not like about taking a regenerative approach to farming.

581
00:24:14.850 --> 00:24:17.052
That doesn't mean it's not difficult.

582
00:24:17.732 --> 00:24:21.034
It doesn't mean there's a lot of relearning to be done,

583
00:24:21.054 --> 00:24:22.335
because there is a lot of relearning.

584
00:24:22.795 --> 00:24:25.977
There's a transition time and cost as well,

585
00:24:26.157 --> 00:24:30.260
as you rethink and you re-evaluate what machinery and your methods of farming.

586
00:24:31.061 --> 00:24:32.401
But coming through the other end,

587
00:24:32.942 --> 00:24:33.922
it's super positive,

588
00:24:34.263 --> 00:24:36.264
and it's definitely the future of farming.

589
00:24:36.504 --> 00:24:36.644
Yeah,

590
00:24:37.105 --> 00:24:37.245
yeah.

591
00:24:37.805 --> 00:24:44.372
We've already drifted into these big questions about the future of farming and viticulture as a whole.

592
00:24:44.712 --> 00:24:49.057
But I want to just bring the conversation back a little bit on the farm and what you're doing here.

593
00:24:49.998 --> 00:24:52.140
So maybe you could describe...

594
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:53.661
In a little bit more detail,

595
00:24:53.741 --> 00:24:57.985
some of the regenerative methods you've applied here on the farm and how they've gone so far.

596
00:24:58.765 --> 00:24:58.985
Sure.

597
00:24:59.146 --> 00:25:04.310
So one of the first things we did was introduce cover cropping.

598
00:25:05.531 --> 00:25:06.672
But before we did that,

599
00:25:07.152 --> 00:25:12.897
we wanted to cut some of the horizontal root systems that I said earlier were very close to the surface.

600
00:25:13.398 --> 00:25:16.080
So we did a deep cutting of the root systems.

601
00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:20.404
But we wanted to make sure that the root systems were going deeper before we introduced cover crop.

602
00:25:20.908 --> 00:25:23.710
But now we have cover crops in every year.

603
00:25:24.030 --> 00:25:25.191
We rotate the cover crops.

604
00:25:26.251 --> 00:25:28.773
We always have mixed crops in there as well,

605
00:25:29.433 --> 00:25:30.714
depending what we're trying to achieve.

606
00:25:31.074 --> 00:25:35.136
So we're mixing them up every year and we're getting a better idea of what we should be planting.

607
00:25:35.917 --> 00:25:37.538
They're annuals rather than perennials,

608
00:25:37.598 --> 00:25:40.900
but this year we've tried a few perennials as well because we're obviously trying to do less.

609
00:25:41.260 --> 00:26:00.396
less work on the soil but that's the main thing um because we did get quite a lot of water erosion here and soil erosion here so and one of the hills behind us here at the farm um the previous owner said that every year the top soil will wash down to the bottom of the field so you need to get a jcb and dig it up and put it back at the top of the field that

610
00:26:00.436 --> 00:26:04.460
made me think that just doesn't sound right yeah you know that so um

611
00:26:05.280 --> 00:26:06.361
That's one of the things we've been doing.

612
00:26:06.401 --> 00:26:10.003
We've been working with biochar as well to accelerate the carbon in the soil.

613
00:26:11.024 --> 00:26:13.005
We've started doing vitiforistry here,

614
00:26:13.686 --> 00:26:15.667
which is a concept which I love.

615
00:26:16.388 --> 00:26:18.689
And a lot of amazing vineyards are doing this now,

616
00:26:18.749 --> 00:26:26.254
which is basically bringing trees into the vineyard to help break up the rhythm of the vines,

617
00:26:26.614 --> 00:26:27.955
bring nature into the vineyard.

618
00:26:29.236 --> 00:26:34.500
And there's some very interesting results on some of the work around vitiforistry.

619
00:26:35.356 --> 00:26:40.320
Let me just take a really short break from this conversation to tell you about the official partner of this podcast,

620
00:26:40.660 --> 00:26:41.300
Soil Capital.

621
00:26:41.721 --> 00:26:50.146
Soil Capital is a company that accelerates the transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve the health of their soils.

622
00:26:50.967 --> 00:26:52.808
It's a company that I personally really like.

623
00:26:52.808 --> 00:26:56.551
I'm a big fan of their work and I'm really proud to be partnering with them for the podcast.

624
00:26:56.831 --> 00:26:59.213
If you're interested in learning more about Soil Capital,

625
00:26:59.233 --> 00:27:02.035
I will leave a link in the description of this episode.

626
00:27:02.375 --> 00:27:03.536
Let's get back to the conversation.

627
00:27:04.688 --> 00:27:05.429
I saw this morning,

628
00:27:05.449 --> 00:27:06.290
I was walking around there,

629
00:27:06.310 --> 00:27:10.693
I saw a whole line between different plots of young trees.

630
00:27:10.713 --> 00:27:11.834
I guess you planted them recently.

631
00:27:12.134 --> 00:27:12.334
Yes.

632
00:27:12.455 --> 00:27:13.595
And I saw some almonds,

633
00:27:14.036 --> 00:27:14.476
some plums,

634
00:27:14.496 --> 00:27:14.876
I think.

635
00:27:16.738 --> 00:27:16.858
Yeah,

636
00:27:16.918 --> 00:27:17.559
and trees like that.

637
00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:19.140
So a lot of different food trees.

638
00:27:19.520 --> 00:27:19.740
Yeah,

639
00:27:19.820 --> 00:27:20.681
we have fruits and nuts.

640
00:27:21.121 --> 00:27:21.842
So yeah,

641
00:27:21.882 --> 00:27:22.863
you saw the almonds.

642
00:27:22.903 --> 00:27:24.084
We've got apple trees in there.

643
00:27:24.885 --> 00:27:26.386
We've got some cypress trees in there,

644
00:27:26.706 --> 00:27:28.848
which are very local to here as well.

645
00:27:29.248 --> 00:27:30.049
We've got plum trees,

646
00:27:30.609 --> 00:27:31.210
pomegranate,

647
00:27:33.051 --> 00:27:33.992
some rose bushes too.

648
00:27:34.512 --> 00:27:35.773
So it's just a kind of whole mix.

649
00:27:37.294 --> 00:27:38.315
It's kind of like a hedge.

650
00:27:38.335 --> 00:27:39.656
It's not just like a line of trees.

651
00:27:39.956 --> 00:27:40.196
Okay,

652
00:27:40.636 --> 00:27:42.398
so with that kind of diversity,

653
00:27:42.438 --> 00:27:45.119
is the goal more just to really have a lot of diversity,

654
00:27:45.219 --> 00:27:47.041
a lot of different types of roots,

655
00:27:47.101 --> 00:27:47.841
different heights,

656
00:27:48.141 --> 00:27:57.408
and really add to the biodiversity of the land rather than have another productive crop that you harvest and that you also sell?

657
00:27:58.188 --> 00:27:58.308
Yeah,

658
00:27:58.328 --> 00:27:58.869
in our case,

659
00:27:59.269 --> 00:28:01.070
it's about the former rather than the latter.

660
00:28:01.731 --> 00:28:02.331
It's about...

661
00:28:03.732 --> 00:28:07.014
breaking up the environment in different ways.

662
00:28:07.554 --> 00:28:09.135
It's about having different root structures.

663
00:28:09.575 --> 00:28:14.878
So that kind of soil architecture becomes different when you have roots that are going deeper down than the vine root.

664
00:28:16.419 --> 00:28:17.680
It's about creating shade.

665
00:28:18.020 --> 00:28:19.181
It's about bringing nature in,

666
00:28:19.241 --> 00:28:20.382
about bringing insects in.

667
00:28:22.503 --> 00:28:25.204
Hopefully it improves the water table as well,

668
00:28:25.304 --> 00:28:27.666
as you have those root structures going down deeper.

669
00:28:28.746 --> 00:28:29.727
It also provides shade.

670
00:28:29.747 --> 00:28:31.248
It's a very hot part of the world here.

671
00:28:31.964 --> 00:28:32.224
And,

672
00:28:32.904 --> 00:28:33.125
you know,

673
00:28:33.145 --> 00:28:34.885
if you were to do this more systematically,

674
00:28:34.885 --> 00:28:37.386
because we're trying to adapt a vineyard that's been here for 200 years,

675
00:28:38.007 --> 00:28:41.688
so we're having to manage it very differently than if we built it from scratch today.

676
00:28:42.588 --> 00:28:44.369
But there are all these benefits of vitiforestry.

677
00:28:44.929 --> 00:28:45.930
And it's interesting seeing,

678
00:28:45.930 --> 00:28:46.130
you know,

679
00:28:46.130 --> 00:28:46.650
in Bordeaux,

680
00:28:46.650 --> 00:28:47.671
it's happening in the Rhone,

681
00:28:48.211 --> 00:28:49.451
it's happening all over the world,

682
00:28:49.511 --> 00:28:50.972
and people are seeing different benefits.

683
00:28:51.852 --> 00:28:59.535
But it's basically breaking up that monoculture and creating a much more biodiverse plant system.

684
00:29:00.236 --> 00:29:00.636
What are the...

685
00:29:01.216 --> 00:29:16.550
potential downside of adding trees to your your system a good question i think um potentially if you're taking out vines to to replace them with trees you're losing some some production um

686
00:29:17.298 --> 00:29:18.779
There could be some arguments,

687
00:29:19.399 --> 00:29:20.520
and there always are arguments,

688
00:29:20.560 --> 00:29:22.982
when you have any other plant here apart from the vine,

689
00:29:23.362 --> 00:29:26.044
that it's creating competition for water in particular,

690
00:29:27.164 --> 00:29:28.645
and potentially nutrients as well.

691
00:29:29.225 --> 00:29:31.007
But the counter-arguments are even stronger,

692
00:29:31.247 --> 00:29:35.589
that actually they help create more water in the environment,

693
00:29:35.609 --> 00:29:38.231
they help create much more biodiversity underground as well,

694
00:29:38.331 --> 00:29:42.414
so actually it's helping with building your disease resilience.

695
00:29:43.114 --> 00:29:59.870
as well because you know monocultures don't exist anywhere in nature yeah and there are more more books now um uh that talk about the way that plants talk to each other through that underground network and of of root systems and fungi so it's um yeah

696
00:29:59.970 --> 00:30:08.158
i'm i'm convinced that it's it's it's the way forward yeah and it's it's it also helps add to the you know the sort of uh

697
00:30:08.658 --> 00:30:11.140
I guess the visual aspect of the vineyard as well,

698
00:30:11.180 --> 00:30:13.662
that it's not just kind of one thing going on there.

699
00:30:13.662 --> 00:30:14.883
It's actually much more mixed now.

700
00:30:15.244 --> 00:30:15.384
Yeah,

701
00:30:15.524 --> 00:30:15.644
yeah.

702
00:30:15.964 --> 00:30:23.030
I guess you still lack the data to really be able to demonstrate the pros and cons and that the pros outweigh the cons.

703
00:30:23.291 --> 00:30:23.711
Like you said,

704
00:30:23.771 --> 00:30:25.733
you're losing a little bit of space for production.

705
00:30:26.393 --> 00:30:31.157
You need investments in planting these trees and pruning them and doing all sorts of things.

706
00:30:31.478 --> 00:30:34.900
There might be some competition for nutrients and water with the vines next to it.

707
00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:35.641
But at the same time,

708
00:30:35.641 --> 00:30:36.502
there's all of these other

709
00:30:36.802 --> 00:30:40.105
potential amazing benefits that you just mentioned.

710
00:30:40.645 --> 00:30:48.192
And your bet is that actually these benefits will be far superior to the downsides that you're starting with.

711
00:30:49.152 --> 00:30:49.513
I'm sure.

712
00:30:49.693 --> 00:30:50.233
I mean,

713
00:30:50.253 --> 00:30:51.114
we'll make mistakes,

714
00:30:51.114 --> 00:30:55.798
but I don't see that we're making any mistakes around that part of it.

715
00:30:55.798 --> 00:30:56.018
You know,

716
00:30:56.018 --> 00:30:56.939
the vitivoracy part,

717
00:30:56.959 --> 00:30:57.159
I think,

718
00:30:57.159 --> 00:30:59.521
is the arguments are very strong indeed.

719
00:31:00.902 --> 00:31:01.803
And but for sure,

720
00:31:01.803 --> 00:31:02.804
I mean,

721
00:31:02.824 --> 00:31:05.426
if it starts to get people thinking differently about having mixed

722
00:31:05.966 --> 00:31:06.546
mixed crops.

723
00:31:07.807 --> 00:31:07.927
So,

724
00:31:08.227 --> 00:31:14.211
and potentially having another income from the cover crops or from having trees in there producing fruit or nuts.

725
00:31:15.312 --> 00:31:15.532
You know,

726
00:31:15.512 --> 00:31:17.233
we have olive trees here anyway as well.

727
00:31:18.394 --> 00:31:18.514
So,

728
00:31:18.714 --> 00:31:18.954
you know,

729
00:31:18.934 --> 00:31:23.057
I think it's just a much more diverse ecosystem and that's got to be good.

730
00:31:23.257 --> 00:31:23.457
Sure.

731
00:31:24.157 --> 00:31:31.082
Now I'm trying to think of how you could incentivize other farmers who farm more conventionally to apply some of these methods.

732
00:31:31.602 --> 00:31:33.343
staying on this VT forestry idea.

733
00:31:34.244 --> 00:31:35.385
I know that in other countries,

734
00:31:35.405 --> 00:31:35.925
like in Belgium,

735
00:31:35.925 --> 00:31:36.506
for example,

736
00:31:36.786 --> 00:31:49.995
there are government funds for farmers who include agroforestry systems on their farms that cover most of the cost of the tree and the cost that comes in at the beginning,

737
00:31:50.035 --> 00:31:52.557
which is a big barrier for some farmers to do that.

738
00:31:53.217 --> 00:31:55.959
Have you ever heard of anything like that in the wine world?

739
00:31:56.300 --> 00:31:56.420
No,

740
00:31:56.500 --> 00:31:57.220
I wish I had,

741
00:31:57.681 --> 00:31:59.422
because I think we need support.

742
00:31:59.662 --> 00:32:00.202
to do this.

743
00:32:00.562 --> 00:32:04.544
We know that we need to change the way we farm.

744
00:32:05.024 --> 00:32:05.945
We've spoken about that.

745
00:32:07.305 --> 00:32:15.049
I don't know whether viticulture will ever be supported in a very strong way by governments because it's not an essential food.

746
00:32:17.950 --> 00:32:21.131
But I think as far as protecting ecosystems,

747
00:32:21.972 --> 00:32:24.673
everyone should be encouraged to farm in these ways.

748
00:32:25.333 --> 00:32:27.114
What's interesting though is

749
00:32:27.706 --> 00:32:30.828
regenerative farming isn't well defined anywhere.

750
00:32:31.588 --> 00:32:32.749
Certainly at a government level,

751
00:32:33.189 --> 00:32:34.130
regenerative agriculture,

752
00:32:34.130 --> 00:32:35.971
I don't think the EU's got a definition yet.

753
00:32:36.931 --> 00:32:41.654
But some of the practices of regenerative farming are being supported and sponsored by governments.

754
00:32:42.174 --> 00:32:48.958
So I think it'll come eventually that actually anybody that's farming regeneratively will be supported to transition.

755
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:52.080
And eventually,

756
00:32:52.120 --> 00:32:52.400
hopefully,

757
00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:55.802
the whole of Europe will be farmed regeneratively.

758
00:32:56.682 --> 00:32:57.743
we'll see the benefits of it.

759
00:32:58.204 --> 00:33:01.386
And we need pioneers such as yourself to lead the way,

760
00:33:01.546 --> 00:33:02.467
to make the experiments,

761
00:33:02.487 --> 00:33:03.328
to make the mistakes,

762
00:33:04.449 --> 00:33:07.311
to prove that this is beneficial for the farmer,

763
00:33:07.331 --> 00:33:08.712
it's beneficial for society,

764
00:33:09.073 --> 00:33:19.702
for biodiversity and ecosystems and maybe eventually convince policymakers and governments and other people to invest more in these practices.

765
00:33:20.302 --> 00:33:20.742
Absolutely.

766
00:33:21.103 --> 00:33:25.464
And that's why we started the regenerative viticulture foundation or the RVF as we call it,

767
00:33:26.185 --> 00:33:27.625
as a way of sharing our learnings,

768
00:33:27.645 --> 00:33:30.506
but also sharing data points and sharing research.

769
00:33:31.727 --> 00:33:33.708
So regenerative farming,

770
00:33:34.208 --> 00:33:35.568
I guess is partly,

771
00:33:35.708 --> 00:33:38.710
I wouldn't say it's instinctive farming,

772
00:33:38.790 --> 00:33:40.891
but we've had that drilled out of us.

773
00:33:40.951 --> 00:33:43.272
We're so far removed from nature now,

774
00:33:44.212 --> 00:33:45.512
but it's scientifically backed.

775
00:33:47.353 --> 00:33:49.014
We want everything to have a purpose.

776
00:33:49.446 --> 00:33:50.567
not just to make it look prettier,

777
00:33:51.047 --> 00:33:52.168
but actually to have a purpose.

778
00:33:52.629 --> 00:34:00.696
And that's where we're seeing a lot of interesting research being done and some major universities really getting behind all the different elements of regenerative farming.

779
00:34:00.776 --> 00:34:04.679
So it's not just something that we feel is the right thing to be doing,

780
00:34:04.719 --> 00:34:08.642
and instinctively we're doing certain things.

781
00:34:09.023 --> 00:34:11.585
There's a lot of science backing up these decisions.

782
00:34:12.145 --> 00:34:17.470
And one of the most powerful tools we're going to develop this summer with our website is having a forum.

783
00:34:18.586 --> 00:34:27.291
Because if you want to buy a mulcher or a crusher or something to put into your vineyard to work in a regenerative way,

784
00:34:27.871 --> 00:34:30.653
then you want to know what are the best designs,

785
00:34:31.193 --> 00:34:32.294
what am I trying to achieve here,

786
00:34:33.075 --> 00:34:38.638
what are the best direct drill methods and what's the best brand to get and how do I get that in my region.

787
00:34:39.818 --> 00:34:45.522
If we can accelerate the adoption of regenerative practices and minimize the amount of mistakes people are making.

788
00:34:45.990 --> 00:34:49.372
then that's also a really important part of our role as a foundation.

789
00:34:50.132 --> 00:34:51.253
When you're saying a forum,

790
00:34:51.253 --> 00:34:55.135
you mean an online platform where people can exchange experiences and information?

791
00:34:55.515 --> 00:34:55.635
Yeah,

792
00:34:55.675 --> 00:34:56.196
exactly that.

793
00:34:56.276 --> 00:34:58.677
Specifically in the viticulture world?

794
00:34:58.977 --> 00:34:59.097
Yeah.

795
00:34:59.357 --> 00:34:59.557
Right,

796
00:34:59.697 --> 00:35:01.098
that's a great idea.

797
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:04.500
Is there a big community yet in this?

798
00:35:06.021 --> 00:35:07.101
It's certainly a growing community.

799
00:35:07.162 --> 00:35:07.422
I mean,

800
00:35:09.583 --> 00:35:12.124
it's a free-to-access website and everything we do,

801
00:35:12.184 --> 00:35:13.345
we share in newsletters,

802
00:35:13.345 --> 00:35:14.926
we share on a regular basis.

803
00:35:15.686 --> 00:35:15.806
Um,

804
00:35:16.307 --> 00:35:16.827
it's growing.

805
00:35:16.847 --> 00:35:17.007
I mean,

806
00:35:17.467 --> 00:35:19.649
we've got a couple of thousand people on our mailing list.

807
00:35:20.249 --> 00:35:20.490
Um,

808
00:35:20.690 --> 00:35:23.331
I think we've got more than two and a half thousand on LinkedIn and so on.

809
00:35:23.812 --> 00:35:26.374
So it's certainly growing pretty rapidly,

810
00:35:26.374 --> 00:35:26.794
I would say.

811
00:35:27.354 --> 00:35:30.897
And there's a huge appetite out there for people to learn more about regenerative viticulture.

812
00:35:31.537 --> 00:35:31.777
Um,

813
00:35:31.897 --> 00:35:33.298
and especially now there's been some,

814
00:35:33.298 --> 00:35:34.319
um,

815
00:35:34.439 --> 00:35:35.020
some studies.

816
00:35:35.040 --> 00:35:36.641
There's been one trial in particular,

817
00:35:36.821 --> 00:35:37.982
um,

818
00:35:38.082 --> 00:35:41.384
which is the biggest regenerative viticulture trial in the world in California,

819
00:35:41.944 --> 00:35:43.886
in a wine region called Pazza Robles.

820
00:35:44.546 --> 00:35:45.827
And it's been done by

821
00:35:46.447 --> 00:35:47.328
Robert Hall Winery,

822
00:35:48.028 --> 00:35:50.669
and actually a friend of the foundation's.

823
00:35:50.690 --> 00:35:52.070
He's now a trustee of the foundation.

824
00:35:52.711 --> 00:35:53.991
Kane Thompson ran this.

825
00:35:54.332 --> 00:35:55.792
It's a four-year trial so far.

826
00:35:56.413 --> 00:35:57.794
But the evidence coming out of it,

827
00:35:58.854 --> 00:36:01.516
comparing what he's done with regenerative plots,

828
00:36:02.116 --> 00:36:05.098
regenerative block versus sustainable farm blocks,

829
00:36:06.218 --> 00:36:07.179
it's just phenomenal.

830
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:11.501
So the good news is it produces better fruit and better wine,

831
00:36:12.022 --> 00:36:12.442
but also...

832
00:36:13.663 --> 00:36:15.924
The soil quality is so much healthier.

833
00:36:16.665 --> 00:36:17.846
The soil carbon is higher.

834
00:36:18.687 --> 00:36:24.992
The CO2 around the canopy in the summer is less than on the sustainable farmed plots,

835
00:36:25.652 --> 00:36:28.195
which means the plant is working more effectively.

836
00:36:28.835 --> 00:36:30.096
It's photosynthesizing,

837
00:36:31.517 --> 00:36:32.098
hard word to say,

838
00:36:32.218 --> 00:36:33.679
photosynthesizing more efficiently.

839
00:36:34.680 --> 00:36:38.223
It's putting the sugars into the soils more effectively.

840
00:36:39.344 --> 00:36:41.225
It's just an incredible trial.

841
00:36:41.766 --> 00:36:42.006
And

842
00:36:42.538 --> 00:36:48.163
So this is what we need people to look at and to see and to get confidence in.

843
00:36:48.803 --> 00:36:49.164
But actually,

844
00:36:49.164 --> 00:36:50.765
there's nothing to not like about this.

845
00:36:51.686 --> 00:36:54.128
And they're not betting the farm on it.

846
00:36:54.368 --> 00:36:55.369
They did a trial block.

847
00:36:56.409 --> 00:36:57.150
But within a year,

848
00:36:57.610 --> 00:36:58.131
they decided,

849
00:36:58.291 --> 00:36:58.471
wow,

850
00:36:58.771 --> 00:36:59.612
we've got to roll this out,

851
00:37:00.072 --> 00:37:00.693
the whole farm.

852
00:37:01.353 --> 00:37:02.454
Nothing to not like about it.

853
00:37:02.715 --> 00:37:03.235
Yeah.

854
00:37:03.235 --> 00:37:04.336
So even yields were good.

855
00:37:05.297 --> 00:37:05.997
Input costs.

856
00:37:06.998 --> 00:37:08.240
were not dramatically increased.

857
00:37:09.021 --> 00:37:10.363
Disease resistance was stronger.

858
00:37:10.864 --> 00:37:12.647
So there's nothing to not like about it,

859
00:37:12.647 --> 00:37:12.847
really.

860
00:37:12.908 --> 00:37:14.851
It's an incredibly inspiring trial.

861
00:37:15.452 --> 00:37:15.692
Okay,

862
00:37:15.792 --> 00:37:15.952
yeah.

863
00:37:16.093 --> 00:37:16.213
Yeah,

864
00:37:16.213 --> 00:37:16.694
you mentioned...

865
00:37:16.974 --> 00:37:33.864
quality and that's a big one when we come when it comes to wine it's a bit of a different types of of product than than most agricultural crops right because you you have a lot of added value that is related to the quality and so isn't there a massive opportunity there if you can really demonstrate by

866
00:37:33.945 --> 00:37:42.530
making amazing wine that using regenerative agriculture leads to better products which you can then sell more expensive absolutely because because you

867
00:37:44.266 --> 00:37:45.027
wine is one of those,

868
00:37:46.187 --> 00:37:47.067
it's not quite unique,

869
00:37:47.067 --> 00:37:47.547
but it's pretty,

870
00:37:47.807 --> 00:37:48.808
it's close to being unique,

871
00:37:48.828 --> 00:37:49.068
I think,

872
00:37:49.068 --> 00:37:57.570
in the sense that the farmer is then fermenting those grapes and putting it into a bottle and putting it on the shelf.

873
00:37:57.610 --> 00:38:00.671
So you can actually taste where it comes from.

874
00:38:01.951 --> 00:38:04.232
You don't normally mix wine with anything else.

875
00:38:04.252 --> 00:38:07.853
It's not like a potato or carrots or beef that you put a sauce over.

876
00:38:07.893 --> 00:38:09.873
You can actually taste the difference.

877
00:38:11.374 --> 00:38:11.714
And...

878
00:38:12.402 --> 00:38:14.243
In wine we use this word terroir,

879
00:38:15.844 --> 00:38:18.086
which is a French word that means,

880
00:38:18.106 --> 00:38:18.346
you know,

881
00:38:18.406 --> 00:38:19.967
it's about the place.

882
00:38:21.128 --> 00:38:25.871
It's meant to mean the soil and the aspect and the microclimate and everything that's affecting that wine.

883
00:38:26.451 --> 00:38:29.853
And people say that you can really taste the terroir in my wine.

884
00:38:30.113 --> 00:38:33.295
It's very specific to where it comes from.

885
00:38:34.576 --> 00:38:36.777
But actually a lot of the terroirs...

886
00:38:38.574 --> 00:38:39.975
have very low soil organic matter.

887
00:38:40.456 --> 00:38:41.416
They're not actually living.

888
00:38:42.057 --> 00:38:42.897
They're close to death.

889
00:38:43.538 --> 00:38:44.879
And this is wrong as well.

890
00:38:44.939 --> 00:38:49.562
It's going back to the whole thing around the soil's purpose,

891
00:38:49.602 --> 00:38:50.562
holding the vine vertical.

892
00:38:51.163 --> 00:38:52.264
So I think it's...

893
00:38:53.444 --> 00:38:59.029
Regenerative farming and having healthy living soil and having a better output of fruit,

894
00:38:59.890 --> 00:39:00.510
more taste,

895
00:39:00.650 --> 00:39:06.335
more expression of location is a huge opportunity for us in the wine world.

896
00:39:06.715 --> 00:39:11.699
So it's really bringing back a true expression of sense of place into wine and I think that's really,

897
00:39:11.739 --> 00:39:12.280
really exciting.

898
00:39:13.904 --> 00:39:17.087
I've noticed that there are a few animals running around the farm.

899
00:39:17.127 --> 00:39:18.368
I've noticed alpacas,

900
00:39:18.988 --> 00:39:19.389
goats,

901
00:39:19.929 --> 00:39:20.209
pigs.

902
00:39:20.450 --> 00:39:22.191
Can you maybe tell us a little bit more about that?

903
00:39:23.092 --> 00:39:23.292
Yes.

904
00:39:23.492 --> 00:39:24.033
So actually,

905
00:39:24.613 --> 00:39:25.174
at the moment,

906
00:39:25.194 --> 00:39:25.834
they're more for fun,

907
00:39:25.934 --> 00:39:27.476
but a bit of a statement of intent.

908
00:39:28.717 --> 00:39:31.819
We plan to bring in sheep more often here.

909
00:39:32.640 --> 00:39:34.201
We've had sheep in here in the past,

910
00:39:35.743 --> 00:39:39.046
but they have to leave in the summer because it gets too hot.

911
00:39:39.146 --> 00:39:39.506
But also,

912
00:39:40.947 --> 00:39:41.648
they like to eat.

913
00:39:41.928 --> 00:39:58.133
the buds and they like to eat the leaves of the vines and all these vines as you can see are kind of waist height um in the classic uh trellis way of the vineyards in the south of france and so you have to you can only have sheep in here for during the winter period so

914
00:39:58.473 --> 00:40:09.996
um animals is something we want to integrate much more into the vineyard and i've just met an amazing man in california called kelly mulville who has been experimenting with sheep in vineyards

915
00:40:10.472 --> 00:40:16.194
And he's developed a trellising system whereby the vine is a sort of shoulder height,

916
00:40:16.214 --> 00:40:16.795
a head height,

917
00:40:17.935 --> 00:40:19.776
so you can have sheep in all year round.

918
00:40:20.676 --> 00:40:20.916
And so,

919
00:40:21.116 --> 00:40:21.396
in fact,

920
00:40:22.117 --> 00:40:23.337
behind you in the vineyard,

921
00:40:23.337 --> 00:40:25.098
we've got two people pruning away here,

922
00:40:25.238 --> 00:40:26.018
bent over double.

923
00:40:26.498 --> 00:40:28.159
It's back-breaking work pruning,

924
00:40:28.419 --> 00:40:29.240
especially at that height.

925
00:40:29.640 --> 00:40:32.761
So actually it's one of the benefits of having the vines at shoulder height,

926
00:40:32.761 --> 00:40:34.722
it makes pruning a bit easier.

927
00:40:35.722 --> 00:40:39.904
But we're planting some syrah down just behind where they're pruning this spring.

928
00:40:40.428 --> 00:40:45.852
and we're going to be trellising those up higher so we can have the sheep in all year round.

929
00:40:46.373 --> 00:40:55.300
And I'm hoping that we can have the whole vineyard transformed to that kind of trellising system over the years.

930
00:40:55.812 --> 00:40:57.193
What's the idea behind it,

931
00:40:57.313 --> 00:40:58.474
having sheep on the vineyard?

932
00:40:59.455 --> 00:41:01.536
How do they work with the ecosystem?

933
00:41:01.636 --> 00:41:02.817
What's the benefit of having them?

934
00:41:03.717 --> 00:41:05.479
So there are many benefits.

935
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:05.859
I mean,

936
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:10.642
one of the things that we are doing here is having to terminate

937
00:41:10.682 --> 00:41:22.096
the cover crop when the vine growth is important and the cover crop shouldn't take over all the minerals and nutrition in the soil and in particular water.

938
00:41:23.077 --> 00:41:25.260
So we're cutting or mulching or

939
00:41:25.600 --> 00:41:27.181
crimping our cover crops.

940
00:41:27.481 --> 00:41:28.421
But if you've got sheep in,

941
00:41:28.581 --> 00:41:29.642
they kind of do that for you.

942
00:41:30.642 --> 00:41:31.342
Not only that,

943
00:41:31.562 --> 00:41:34.043
but they are keeping the cover crop down,

944
00:41:34.043 --> 00:41:38.325
but then obviously they are pooping and urinating and putting those nutrients back in.

945
00:41:38.405 --> 00:41:40.125
So it's all part of that nutrient cycle.

946
00:41:40.646 --> 00:41:46.808
So it's nature's way of giving you these cover crops.

947
00:41:48.049 --> 00:42:05.418
terminators if you like but actually they're they're doing much more than that yeah yeah okay um yeah they're really helping the whole ecosystem boosting the ecosystem by cycling those nutrients eating those cover crops yeah exactly exactly but it's a different you know it's you know it's

948
00:42:05.458 --> 00:42:15.024
all part of this kind of called the regenerative paradigms if you are thinking in a much more holistic way then you've got to learn a lot more skill sets so

949
00:42:15.544 --> 00:42:18.767
rather than just learning how to look after a vine and keep everything else out,

950
00:42:19.227 --> 00:42:21.028
you're having to learn to bring things in.

951
00:42:21.629 --> 00:42:27.153
And to work with sheep is a very different skill set to working with vines.

952
00:42:27.753 --> 00:42:32.877
And so we have to acknowledge that and not try and do everything at one time.

953
00:42:32.897 --> 00:42:36.920
So that's why we're going to work with a small parcel initially and a very small flock of sheep.

954
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:39.122
I haven't even thought of which sheep yet.

955
00:42:39.462 --> 00:42:39.802
And again,

956
00:42:39.822 --> 00:42:40.542
in California,

957
00:42:40.542 --> 00:42:43.763
I'm seeing there are some hair sheep rather than wool sheep.

958
00:42:44.523 --> 00:42:44.643
So,

959
00:42:44.723 --> 00:42:49.964
because one aspect of managing sheep is obviously shearing the wool off in the summer.

960
00:42:50.604 --> 00:42:51.865
But if actually you've got hair sheep,

961
00:42:52.585 --> 00:42:55.826
it drops the hair naturally and that goes into the ground.

962
00:42:56.486 --> 00:42:59.126
But it's just one less thing for the vineyard to have to worry about.

963
00:43:00.587 --> 00:43:00.707
So,

964
00:43:00.767 --> 00:43:00.947
yeah,

965
00:43:03.707 --> 00:43:05.648
animal husbandry is an aspect of...

966
00:43:06.748 --> 00:43:09.650
total farming that viticulture at the moment doesn't address.

967
00:43:09.691 --> 00:43:17.377
So we're having to bring in these new ideas gradually and not give everyone a nervous breakdown here.

968
00:43:17.657 --> 00:43:28.827
It's one of the biggest issues with regenerative farming is the level of complexity raises drastically from a fairly binary simple system that fits neatly in an Excel sheet,

969
00:43:28.887 --> 00:43:29.107
right?

970
00:43:29.587 --> 00:43:29.927
Exactly.

971
00:43:29.967 --> 00:43:30.208
And

972
00:43:31.148 --> 00:43:38.333
into something really complex and something that changes every year and you cannot predict exactly what nature is going to do and biodiversity is going to do.

973
00:43:38.413 --> 00:43:44.297
And so it's so much more complex and adding animals to that adds even more complexity.

974
00:43:45.138 --> 00:43:52.283
I've spoken to some farmers who collaborate with professionals in animal husbandry who will have a flock of sheep,

975
00:43:52.303 --> 00:43:52.803
for example,

976
00:43:52.823 --> 00:43:53.964
and they just bring them in.

977
00:43:54.464 --> 00:43:57.846
And there's some kind of synergies between the two because they get free food,

978
00:43:58.847 --> 00:44:00.208
but the farmer doesn't have to worry about...

979
00:44:00.761 --> 00:44:05.899
owning the sheep or dealing with them is that something that you you see potentially happening

980
00:44:07.109 --> 00:44:07.329
Yes,

981
00:44:07.509 --> 00:44:08.730
much more.

982
00:44:09.991 --> 00:44:14.394
Unless you've got the scale or the skills and the manpower to do all these things yourself,

983
00:44:14.934 --> 00:44:21.299
I think we need to build these much more community-based farming projects.

984
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:22.419
So yeah,

985
00:44:22.419 --> 00:44:23.660
people are bringing sheep in.

986
00:44:24.141 --> 00:44:26.222
We're bringing bees in every year as well,

987
00:44:26.302 --> 00:44:27.943
so we work with a local beekeeper.

988
00:44:28.524 --> 00:44:34.108
But we don't have the skill set to look after bees as well.

989
00:44:34.548 --> 00:44:39.949
But they come in here and we buy the honey off the beekeeper and we sell it in our shop.

990
00:44:40.450 --> 00:44:40.890
So I think,

991
00:44:41.050 --> 00:44:41.190
yeah,

992
00:44:41.250 --> 00:44:43.350
we're going to be working in a much more community-based,

993
00:44:43.350 --> 00:44:44.831
which is what I love about this as well.

994
00:44:45.591 --> 00:44:47.351
You're not just regenerating your own farm,

995
00:44:47.431 --> 00:44:52.593
but you're potentially regenerating communities as well and bringing real thinking power back onto the farm.

996
00:44:55.474 --> 00:45:01.975
A lot of farmers have just been stuck in their air-conditioned tractor quite a few meters from the soil,

997
00:45:02.035 --> 00:45:04.056
just driving away and really removed from it.

998
00:45:04.564 --> 00:45:12.411
And we need to get feedback into the soil and to really be observational and see what cause and effect are happening by different farming techniques.

999
00:45:12.851 --> 00:45:16.594
But I love that aspect and leaning over the fence at the side of the farm,

1000
00:45:16.694 --> 00:45:17.435
talking to the neighbor.

1001
00:45:17.555 --> 00:45:18.856
So those local communities,

1002
00:45:18.916 --> 00:45:20.998
farmer-to-farmer networks are so,

1003
00:45:21.138 --> 00:45:21.838
so important.

1004
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:26.822
And I think it's really uplifting because farmers should be our heroes.

1005
00:45:27.883 --> 00:45:29.485
We often blame them for things,

1006
00:45:29.505 --> 00:45:33.068
for the cost of food or for climate change and methane or whatever.

1007
00:45:33.696 --> 00:45:35.337
but without farmers we would all be dead.

1008
00:45:36.697 --> 00:45:36.817
So

1009
00:45:37.217 --> 00:45:45.560
I think it's really regenerating the goodwill in farming is kind of a great byproduct of this movement.

1010
00:45:45.680 --> 00:45:45.800
Yeah,

1011
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:45.960
yeah.

1012
00:45:46.721 --> 00:45:51.482
How has the local community reacted to you coming here and doing things differently?

1013
00:45:51.502 --> 00:45:53.923
Because you're not only come from a business background,

1014
00:45:54.023 --> 00:45:55.164
you come from the UK.

1015
00:45:56.304 --> 00:45:57.265
And you come in here,

1016
00:45:58.465 --> 00:46:05.248
buy this vineyard and change everything and do things differently than they've been doing for generations before.

1017
00:46:05.288 --> 00:46:09.510
So it must not have been easy to get them on board.

1018
00:46:09.930 --> 00:46:10.090
Yeah,

1019
00:46:10.250 --> 00:46:10.650
it's true.

1020
00:46:11.291 --> 00:46:11.411
Well,

1021
00:46:11.451 --> 00:46:12.371
it's actually true,

1022
00:46:12.371 --> 00:46:14.032
but it hasn't been as much of an issue.

1023
00:46:14.112 --> 00:46:14.492
I mean,

1024
00:46:14.492 --> 00:46:17.093
I'm already used to the French thinking I'm mad anyway.

1025
00:46:17.153 --> 00:46:17.413
You know,

1026
00:46:17.533 --> 00:46:22.996
Brick coming here and trying to make wine in their sort of backyard.

1027
00:46:23.776 --> 00:46:24.457
So I already have,

1028
00:46:24.617 --> 00:46:27.898
I'm used to the raised eyebrows from my local French friends.

1029
00:46:28.739 --> 00:46:30.299
And then I buy a vineyard and I say,

1030
00:46:30.339 --> 00:46:30.559
yeah,

1031
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:31.560
we're doing it regeneratively.

1032
00:46:31.600 --> 00:46:32.120
And they're like,

1033
00:46:32.140 --> 00:46:32.260
oh,

1034
00:46:32.340 --> 00:46:33.301
what are you doing now?

1035
00:46:33.781 --> 00:46:34.301
But actually,

1036
00:46:35.182 --> 00:46:35.702
they're really,

1037
00:46:35.782 --> 00:46:36.662
really embracing it.

1038
00:46:37.143 --> 00:46:38.443
And a lot of them are already doing it too.

1039
00:46:38.803 --> 00:46:40.284
I'm not reinventing any wheel here.

1040
00:46:41.625 --> 00:46:44.006
There are a lot of people who are farming this way.

1041
00:46:44.586 --> 00:46:46.927
They may not be calling it regenerative farming.

1042
00:46:48.612 --> 00:46:51.994
But it's just they have a sense of working with nature rather than against it.

1043
00:46:52.354 --> 00:46:53.315
They've moved away from that,

1044
00:46:53.855 --> 00:46:55.636
the old-fashioned monoculture mindset.

1045
00:46:56.596 --> 00:46:57.977
They call it agroecology here,

1046
00:46:58.097 --> 00:46:58.697
for example,

1047
00:46:59.178 --> 00:47:01.279
or regeneratis rather than regenerative.

1048
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:03.120
But it's all the same thing.

1049
00:47:03.560 --> 00:47:04.360
It's all the same thing.

1050
00:47:04.421 --> 00:47:05.421
So I actually,

1051
00:47:06.582 --> 00:47:08.403
when I knew that I wanted to get my growers,

1052
00:47:08.443 --> 00:47:12.825
because effectively my vineyard here represents a fairly small part of my till production.

1053
00:47:12.925 --> 00:47:17.988
I'm still working with hundreds of growers through the village cooperative system.

1054
00:47:19.396 --> 00:47:19.516
So

1055
00:47:20.657 --> 00:47:23.899
I wanted to get some of them to see what we're doing at the farm.

1056
00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:29.021
And so last May we had a regenerative open day here at Domain Mirabeau,

1057
00:47:29.921 --> 00:47:31.622
and it was actually run by my foundation,

1058
00:47:31.662 --> 00:47:33.043
so it wasn't Mirabeau saying,

1059
00:47:33.103 --> 00:47:34.243
this is what we should be doing,

1060
00:47:34.703 --> 00:47:35.744
or this is what you should be doing.

1061
00:47:36.124 --> 00:47:38.845
It's more about the foundation saying,

1062
00:47:39.266 --> 00:47:40.386
this is regenerative farming,

1063
00:47:40.606 --> 00:47:43.447
are you guys already aware of this,

1064
00:47:43.628 --> 00:47:44.268
are you doing it?

1065
00:47:45.268 --> 00:47:45.668
And if so,

1066
00:47:45.868 --> 00:47:49.629
can we join forces and start to make more regenerative farm wines?

1067
00:47:50.630 --> 00:47:51.890
So we had about 27,

1068
00:47:51.910 --> 00:47:52.170
I think,

1069
00:47:52.230 --> 00:47:55.051
growers sitting in our house here.

1070
00:47:55.331 --> 00:47:56.351
We had some slides.

1071
00:47:56.371 --> 00:47:57.772
We had some very good talkers,

1072
00:47:58.252 --> 00:47:58.672
speakers,

1073
00:48:01.032 --> 00:48:02.073
subject experts.

1074
00:48:02.373 --> 00:48:06.674
But we also tried to paint the bigger picture of why the whole world needs to be farming this way.

1075
00:48:07.634 --> 00:48:09.115
So we just did a morning of talks,

1076
00:48:09.575 --> 00:48:10.135
then lunch,

1077
00:48:10.255 --> 00:48:13.636
and then a voluntary vineyard walk afterwards.

1078
00:48:14.592 --> 00:48:16.894
And I say that because I thought everyone would leave after the lunch.

1079
00:48:17.694 --> 00:48:18.515
They all stayed.

1080
00:48:19.035 --> 00:48:20.356
They all stayed to learn more.

1081
00:48:20.616 --> 00:48:27.841
There's a massive appetite here and I think everywhere for farming in a way that's much more nature-friendly.

1082
00:48:29.322 --> 00:48:30.303
And subsequently,

1083
00:48:30.363 --> 00:48:35.066
we've actually certified seven of our growers,

1084
00:48:35.107 --> 00:48:36.267
as well as our domain here,

1085
00:48:36.508 --> 00:48:37.028
regenerative.

1086
00:48:38.741 --> 00:48:44.386
So we've actually just launched a wine that is the first regenerative rosé to come out of Provence.

1087
00:48:44.446 --> 00:48:45.126
When I say regenerative,

1088
00:48:45.146 --> 00:48:46.287
I mean certified regenerative.

1089
00:48:47.408 --> 00:48:50.091
So that's another big aspect of what's happening next.

1090
00:48:50.751 --> 00:48:52.613
What do we mean by certified regenerative?

1091
00:48:53.634 --> 00:48:53.754
Yeah,

1092
00:48:53.954 --> 00:49:00.020
so for a retailer anywhere in the world to...

1093
00:49:00.712 --> 00:49:05.234
put a wine on the shelf and make a claim about it being farmed in a certain way,

1094
00:49:05.294 --> 00:49:07.335
if it's organic or if it's biodynamic,

1095
00:49:07.795 --> 00:49:21.400
then they are going to be looking for that producer to certify with one of the certifying bodies that actually that wine is demeter biodynamic or it's ecocere organic or whatever.

1096
00:49:22.761 --> 00:49:27.723
And there are now quite a few different certifications for regenerative products.

1097
00:49:29.484 --> 00:49:29.904
There are

1098
00:49:31.324 --> 00:49:34.346
I'd say more than 10 certifications already available out there,

1099
00:49:35.306 --> 00:49:36.967
and there might be more coming along as well.

1100
00:49:38.127 --> 00:49:42.989
Because the words regenerative agriculture are not well defined anywhere,

1101
00:49:43.690 --> 00:49:46.911
so these certification agencies are basically defining it.

1102
00:49:47.691 --> 00:49:54.334
We've actually certified with four different agencies here at Domain Mirabeau.

1103
00:49:54.614 --> 00:49:56.815
But it's a way of actually being able to put a badge and a label and saying,

1104
00:49:56.835 --> 00:49:57.676
this is regenerative.

1105
00:49:59.096 --> 00:50:17.375
the retailers the wine stores the grocers around the world who sell wine will start to say hey you know let's get more regenerative certified wines on onto our shelves yeah yeah a lot of people know about organic about uh even biodynamic regenerative is the new kid around the block right what

1106
00:50:17.375 --> 00:50:22.620
are the major differences between the three um yeah so regenerative

1107
00:50:23.428 --> 00:50:25.990
I like to say it takes the best from organic,

1108
00:50:26.391 --> 00:50:28.673
it takes the best from biodynamic,

1109
00:50:28.833 --> 00:50:30.995
and the best from sustainable farming practices.

1110
00:50:32.276 --> 00:50:36.740
It's a very nature-positive way of farming,

1111
00:50:38.401 --> 00:50:42.485
and it's much more focused on outcomes than it is on practices,

1112
00:50:43.706 --> 00:50:47.349
whereas organic is much more focused on practices generally.

1113
00:50:48.070 --> 00:50:50.472
So you're not allowed to do certain things.

1114
00:50:50.852 --> 00:50:51.373
Whereas,

1115
00:50:51.673 --> 00:50:51.933
you know,

1116
00:50:52.013 --> 00:50:56.616
we are much more sort of open book on what you should be doing as far as getting the right outcomes.

1117
00:50:57.197 --> 00:50:59.418
Outcomes as far as soil health goes,

1118
00:50:59.518 --> 00:51:02.701
outcomes as far as nature restoration and biodiversity and so on.

1119
00:51:03.221 --> 00:51:04.362
So it's a different mindset.

1120
00:51:05.263 --> 00:51:05.563
I mean,

1121
00:51:05.763 --> 00:51:09.866
there are a lot of organic farmers who are farming regeneratively anyway.

1122
00:51:11.908 --> 00:51:16.951
But organic down here especially can still lead to a monoculture mindset.

1123
00:51:18.032 --> 00:51:20.113
So instead of using herbicides,

1124
00:51:21.634 --> 00:51:25.537
people are still ploughing the soil very heavily and calling it organic.

1125
00:51:26.097 --> 00:51:28.579
But now we know that the damage that ploughing can do to the soil,

1126
00:51:28.819 --> 00:51:30.800
we realize actually that's not necessarily the best solution.

1127
00:51:31.701 --> 00:51:32.241
Using copper,

1128
00:51:32.701 --> 00:51:33.962
huge amounts of copper in the soil,

1129
00:51:34.122 --> 00:51:37.825
getting copper into the soil is not a good solution either.

1130
00:51:38.465 --> 00:51:42.548
So finding nature-based solutions is what regenerative farming is all about.

1131
00:51:43.416 --> 00:51:45.077
Organic has many benefits,

1132
00:51:45.177 --> 00:51:47.358
but organic is a set of practices.

1133
00:51:47.358 --> 00:51:49.859
You need to do things a specific way to be called organic,

1134
00:51:50.019 --> 00:51:50.219
right?

1135
00:51:50.439 --> 00:51:50.759
Exactly.

1136
00:51:51.179 --> 00:51:52.280
And with regenerative,

1137
00:51:52.300 --> 00:51:52.960
that's not the case,

1138
00:51:52.980 --> 00:51:54.861
which makes it really hard to define.

1139
00:51:55.161 --> 00:51:56.742
And I guess people don't like that.

1140
00:51:56.782 --> 00:51:59.043
We like to fit things neatly in boxes.

1141
00:51:59.763 --> 00:52:00.003
But yeah,

1142
00:52:00.003 --> 00:52:02.304
I like this idea of focusing more on the outcomes.

1143
00:52:03.045 --> 00:52:04.806
But talking about these outcomes,

1144
00:52:04.866 --> 00:52:09.748
maybe you could specify in a bit more detail what kind of outcomes and how do you measure them.

1145
00:52:10.644 --> 00:52:13.006
How do you look to the long term with those outcomes?

1146
00:52:13.727 --> 00:52:13.947
Yes,

1147
00:52:14.127 --> 00:52:17.890
so there are many outcomes that we should be measuring in a regenerative environment.

1148
00:52:19.011 --> 00:52:19.372
For me,

1149
00:52:19.492 --> 00:52:21.974
the most important one is one we call SOM,

1150
00:52:22.154 --> 00:52:23.095
soil organic matter.

1151
00:52:24.737 --> 00:52:27.619
Because the more organic matter you have in your soil,

1152
00:52:28.160 --> 00:52:29.421
the healthier the soil is,

1153
00:52:30.101 --> 00:52:33.264
the more disease-resistant the plants can be,

1154
00:52:34.625 --> 00:52:35.026
and really,

1155
00:52:35.046 --> 00:52:35.606
really importantly,

1156
00:52:35.606 --> 00:52:37.408
the more water can be held in that soil.

1157
00:52:38.340 --> 00:52:45.322
So a few percentage points increase in soil organic matter can lead to massive amounts more water you can store in the soil.

1158
00:52:46.122 --> 00:52:48.363
So that's probably the most important measurement.

1159
00:52:49.323 --> 00:52:51.104
There are other measurements like soil carbon,

1160
00:52:52.384 --> 00:52:53.104
biodiversity,

1161
00:52:54.124 --> 00:52:54.845
worm counts,

1162
00:52:56.645 --> 00:52:57.505
water penetration,

1163
00:52:58.406 --> 00:52:59.526
water ingress testing.

1164
00:52:59.926 --> 00:53:05.768
So there are all sorts of different measurements you can do to see whether your soil is becoming healthier.

1165
00:53:07.148 --> 00:53:09.849
to see whether it's becoming more absorbent as well,

1166
00:53:10.389 --> 00:53:15.152
and really working the soil through nature rather than working the soil through machines.

1167
00:53:15.872 --> 00:53:17.493
And somebody explained to me that we used to,

1168
00:53:17.733 --> 00:53:20.314
before the kind of creation of industrial farming,

1169
00:53:20.334 --> 00:53:22.135
we used to have solar-based farming.

1170
00:53:22.455 --> 00:53:22.935
In other words,

1171
00:53:23.255 --> 00:53:26.897
photosynthesis was the powerhouse behind everything you're doing.

1172
00:53:27.337 --> 00:53:31.519
And now we've gone sort of towards hydrocarbon farming because we're using external inputs,

1173
00:53:32.119 --> 00:53:32.980
not just as far as...

1174
00:53:33.100 --> 00:53:33.560
Yeah.

1175
00:53:34.809 --> 00:53:35.490
fertilizers go,

1176
00:53:35.610 --> 00:53:36.431
but also as far as,

1177
00:53:36.591 --> 00:53:37.592
you know,

1178
00:53:37.773 --> 00:53:40.657
we're driving diesel-powered tractors around the place as well.

1179
00:53:41.237 --> 00:53:49.969
And we need to go much more back towards that sort of solar-based input model and getting the energy from the sun rather than from hydrocarbons.

1180
00:53:50.110 --> 00:53:50.250
Yeah.

1181
00:53:50.906 --> 00:53:57.332
And so you've been measuring all of this and you're sort of monitoring it on a regular basis to see the improvements in soil organic matter and things like that?

1182
00:53:57.652 --> 00:53:57.812
Yeah,

1183
00:53:58.112 --> 00:53:58.433
we are,

1184
00:53:59.013 --> 00:54:03.277
because measuring the outputs is obviously that key component.

1185
00:54:03.857 --> 00:54:04.638
So yeah,

1186
00:54:04.658 --> 00:54:06.019
we're measuring all those different elements.

1187
00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:09.722
We're seeing the benefits already,

1188
00:54:10.042 --> 00:54:11.504
but we also know we could be doing a lot more,

1189
00:54:12.244 --> 00:54:14.346
especially to accelerate the soil organic matter.

1190
00:54:15.287 --> 00:54:18.730
So that's why we've got a program now to get a lot more compost onto the soil.

1191
00:54:19.935 --> 00:54:21.356
But also we're working with,

1192
00:54:21.436 --> 00:54:21.836
in fact,

1193
00:54:22.697 --> 00:54:30.344
an amazing compost company who is getting money from the local airport here,

1194
00:54:30.905 --> 00:54:32.506
who've obviously got a massive carbon footprint,

1195
00:54:32.526 --> 00:54:35.589
and they're buying carbon credits and investing those into that compost.

1196
00:54:36.070 --> 00:54:36.550
So effectively,

1197
00:54:36.570 --> 00:54:38.912
you're getting compost that's coming from local restaurants,

1198
00:54:39.613 --> 00:54:40.294
or they're taking the...

1199
00:54:40.714 --> 00:54:43.075
the food waste from local restaurants making the compost,

1200
00:54:43.175 --> 00:54:46.656
and then the local airport is subsidizing the cost of compost coming onto our land.

1201
00:54:47.277 --> 00:54:47.997
So again,

1202
00:54:48.057 --> 00:54:50.098
it's working with the local ecosystem,

1203
00:54:51.018 --> 00:54:52.478
broader than the natural ecosystem,

1204
00:54:52.839 --> 00:54:53.239
of course,

1205
00:54:53.279 --> 00:54:57.480
but it's working with the local ecosystem to actually make good what we're doing more generally.

1206
00:54:57.881 --> 00:54:58.181
Awesome.

1207
00:54:59.641 --> 00:55:00.982
Could you describe...

1208
00:55:02.174 --> 00:55:06.297
How do you imagine the perfect regenerative farm here,

1209
00:55:06.397 --> 00:55:07.838
let's say in 10 years'

1210
00:55:07.938 --> 00:55:08.198
time,

1211
00:55:08.278 --> 00:55:10.039
when you've had more time to experiment,

1212
00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:10.720
to improve?

1213
00:55:11.120 --> 00:55:11.881
How do you imagine it?

1214
00:55:13.081 --> 00:55:16.804
It'll look quite different from how it looks today in this sense.

1215
00:55:16.804 --> 00:55:18.005
In my mind's eye anyway,

1216
00:55:18.565 --> 00:55:20.086
all the vines will be trellised high.

1217
00:55:20.887 --> 00:55:21.567
Like I said earlier,

1218
00:55:21.687 --> 00:55:23.709
we're looking to bring sheep in all year round.

1219
00:55:24.229 --> 00:55:25.970
So it'll be a mixed farm.

1220
00:55:26.070 --> 00:55:29.853
So we're going to have lots of animals around here.

1221
00:55:29.953 --> 00:55:31.334
We're going to have lots of fruit trees.

1222
00:55:31.694 --> 00:55:33.294
We're going to be growing vegetables as well.

1223
00:55:33.735 --> 00:55:35.035
So it'll be a real mixed farm.

1224
00:55:36.055 --> 00:55:39.456
Just one second about that high trellising thing.

1225
00:55:39.516 --> 00:55:40.836
So right now,

1226
00:55:40.876 --> 00:55:43.917
because you have all of these thousands of vines around that are very,

1227
00:55:44.237 --> 00:55:44.657
very low,

1228
00:55:44.778 --> 00:55:45.678
how do you get them higher?

1229
00:55:45.678 --> 00:55:52.360
Do you have to replant them or can you modify the existing vines to get them to grow higher?

1230
00:55:52.940 --> 00:55:53.880
You can modify them,

1231
00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:55.320
but we're going to try and replant.

1232
00:55:55.900 --> 00:55:57.541
So at any one stage,

1233
00:55:57.621 --> 00:56:01.382
we've got some land that's lying fallow here that we are resting.

1234
00:56:01.582 --> 00:56:03.245
before we are replanting.

1235
00:56:03.806 --> 00:56:08.474
And so rather than trellising those at the classic kind of waist height,

1236
00:56:08.514 --> 00:56:10.898
we're going to be trellising them all high.

1237
00:56:11.359 --> 00:56:12.922
So I think rather than modifying,

1238
00:56:12.942 --> 00:56:14.965
we're going to be doing it like that.

1239
00:56:14.965 --> 00:56:15.085
Okay,

1240
00:56:15.326 --> 00:56:15.446
yeah.

1241
00:56:16.163 --> 00:56:16.463
But actually,

1242
00:56:16.463 --> 00:56:17.283
whilst we're talking about fallow,

1243
00:56:17.343 --> 00:56:21.047
that's something else here that typically a good farmer,

1244
00:56:22.007 --> 00:56:23.629
if they are having to replace vines,

1245
00:56:23.669 --> 00:56:26.311
because here we have obviously attrition of vines,

1246
00:56:26.311 --> 00:56:28.273
so vines will die over time.

1247
00:56:28.293 --> 00:56:30.815
You'll have a parcel with maybe 60%

1248
00:56:31.816 --> 00:56:33.197
healthy vines and 40%

1249
00:56:33.197 --> 00:56:33.737
mortality,

1250
00:56:33.877 --> 00:56:35.959
so you're going to have to replace that vineyard.

1251
00:56:36.600 --> 00:56:37.120
But A,

1252
00:56:37.240 --> 00:56:40.383
we're hoping that actually with a healthy living soil you can have less vine mortality,

1253
00:56:41.043 --> 00:56:43.906
but also when you do need to replace those vines.

1254
00:56:44.426 --> 00:56:49.910
you won't need to let that land lie fallow for nearly as long if that soil is super healthy.

1255
00:56:50.871 --> 00:56:55.954
So that has a huge impact on your balance sheet if your vines are lasting longer,

1256
00:56:56.134 --> 00:56:57.495
and on your P&L as well,

1257
00:56:57.936 --> 00:57:03.059
if your vines are actually staying in production much more than they would be if you're lying fallow.

1258
00:57:03.079 --> 00:57:05.841
Because if you have to have your land fallow for five years,

1259
00:57:05.881 --> 00:57:09.364
you then have three years before you can take any fruit off that once you plant the vines.

1260
00:57:09.944 --> 00:57:11.966
So there's eight years of being out of production.

1261
00:57:12.778 --> 00:57:21.742
So we think there are some really interesting cost-benefit arguments for healthy soil and you can get around some of those issues.

1262
00:57:22.142 --> 00:57:24.883
And also we think the vine life will increase dramatically as well.

1263
00:57:25.923 --> 00:57:26.684
So less disease,

1264
00:57:26.764 --> 00:57:30.085
longer living vines instead of being maybe an average of 20 or 25 years,

1265
00:57:30.545 --> 00:57:32.346
which I think is typical around here now.

1266
00:57:33.587 --> 00:57:37.628
You could have vines lasting 50 years or even 100 years as they used to.

1267
00:57:38.449 --> 00:57:38.569
So

1268
00:57:39.009 --> 00:57:41.770
I think there are lots of different angles to look at.

1269
00:57:42.475 --> 00:57:44.977
around this regenerative movement into the culture.

1270
00:57:45.198 --> 00:57:45.818
That's great,

1271
00:57:45.858 --> 00:57:49.562
because if you can make a business case for regenerative being actually more interesting,

1272
00:57:50.744 --> 00:57:52.345
that could really boost the adoption.

1273
00:57:53.046 --> 00:57:53.406
Exactly.

1274
00:57:53.527 --> 00:57:53.647
Well,

1275
00:57:53.947 --> 00:57:54.368
it has to.

1276
00:57:55.108 --> 00:57:55.509
Ultimately,

1277
00:57:56.109 --> 00:57:58.912
it has to make economic sense to farm like this.

1278
00:58:00.154 --> 00:58:03.037
I know it has to make economic sense,

1279
00:58:03.057 --> 00:58:03.838
and I believe it will.

1280
00:58:04.794 --> 00:58:05.135
But also,

1281
00:58:05.895 --> 00:58:07.916
wine is becoming less and less fashionable,

1282
00:58:07.996 --> 00:58:08.357
sadly.

1283
00:58:09.437 --> 00:58:10.118
So there are people,

1284
00:58:10.378 --> 00:58:15.902
there are wine regions in the world who are having to take out vines and rethink what they're doing with that land.

1285
00:58:16.362 --> 00:58:21.325
So I think it's going to put more pressure on the vineyards of the world to do the right thing,

1286
00:58:22.386 --> 00:58:23.367
not just economically,

1287
00:58:23.447 --> 00:58:24.448
but also environmentally.

1288
00:58:24.808 --> 00:58:25.008
Okay,

1289
00:58:25.088 --> 00:58:28.630
I had no idea wine was becoming less fashionable.

1290
00:58:28.911 --> 00:58:32.093
Do we see numbers of total production and sales dropping?

1291
00:58:32.533 --> 00:58:32.673
Yeah,

1292
00:58:32.693 --> 00:58:33.194
I was seeing...

1293
00:58:33.954 --> 00:58:35.155
We're seeing sales dropping,

1294
00:58:35.175 --> 00:58:35.395
I mean,

1295
00:58:35.415 --> 00:58:36.015
since COVID,

1296
00:58:36.876 --> 00:58:38.397
sales have come right off.

1297
00:58:39.918 --> 00:58:42.119
I think that we were already heading towards overproduction.

1298
00:58:42.199 --> 00:58:45.301
I think the young are not drinking as much as my generation.

1299
00:58:46.361 --> 00:58:48.923
So there's that kind of macro trend.

1300
00:58:49.343 --> 00:58:52.645
But we're also seeing different drinks coming out.

1301
00:58:52.725 --> 00:58:53.426
Like in the States,

1302
00:58:53.426 --> 00:58:54.526
we have hard seltzers,

1303
00:58:55.787 --> 00:58:56.668
which are very popular.

1304
00:58:56.728 --> 00:58:58.529
We're seeing a lot of pre-mixed cocktails.

1305
00:58:59.289 --> 00:59:00.130
We're seeing a lot of...

1306
00:59:02.086 --> 00:59:03.607
craft beers now and so on.

1307
00:59:04.107 --> 00:59:04.728
We're seeing also,

1308
00:59:04.868 --> 00:59:05.088
again,

1309
00:59:05.088 --> 00:59:05.569
in the US,

1310
00:59:05.569 --> 00:59:06.549
the cannabis movement.

1311
00:59:07.730 --> 00:59:12.794
So people are taking cannabis or having a few cannabis gummies rather than drinking midweek.

1312
00:59:13.714 --> 00:59:17.717
We're seeing the zero alcohol and low alcohol beers and wines coming out.

1313
00:59:18.938 --> 00:59:23.001
We're also seeing this trend for these weight loss products,

1314
00:59:23.341 --> 00:59:24.041
like a Zympic,

1315
00:59:24.602 --> 00:59:24.902
GLP-1,

1316
00:59:25.262 --> 00:59:25.903
I think they're called,

1317
00:59:26.863 --> 00:59:29.986
where people are having their appetite suppressed but also suppressing their...

1318
00:59:30.642 --> 00:59:32.563
their desire to have a glass of wine as well.

1319
00:59:32.683 --> 00:59:34.143
So everything has happened at once.

1320
00:59:34.243 --> 00:59:36.104
So yeah,

1321
00:59:36.164 --> 00:59:37.084
wine is under pressure.

1322
00:59:37.664 --> 00:59:41.446
I think it's a terrible shame because I think it's an amazing natural product.

1323
00:59:42.346 --> 00:59:42.566
And

1324
00:59:44.026 --> 00:59:46.447
I'm convinced that there will still be a lot of wine drinkers out there.

1325
00:59:46.687 --> 00:59:52.249
But I think there is going to be a focus on if you're going to actually have your land used to farm grapes for wine,

1326
00:59:53.209 --> 00:59:54.470
make sure it's farmed in the right way.

1327
00:59:56.294 --> 01:00:01.437
Is there an important message that you'd like to share that maybe something we haven't covered yet in this discussion?

1328
01:00:02.157 --> 01:00:04.979
I think the main message is start small.

1329
01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:07.260
Start small,

1330
01:00:07.340 --> 01:00:08.480
but please start.

1331
01:00:10.041 --> 01:00:10.421
Get ready,

1332
01:00:11.322 --> 01:00:12.703
listen to podcasts like yours,

1333
01:00:12.803 --> 01:00:18.966
listen to other people who've been doing this for a long time.

1334
01:00:19.870 --> 01:00:21.611
There's a lot of research out there.

1335
01:00:21.791 --> 01:00:24.471
This will be taught at universities before too long,

1336
01:00:24.972 --> 01:00:29.733
but right now there's a bit of a gap around education.

1337
01:00:30.433 --> 01:00:35.354
So feel emboldened to do the research first.

1338
01:00:37.415 --> 01:00:46.257
You might need to ask permission of the owner of the farm or of your parents or your family to convert one block to regen,

1339
01:00:46.858 --> 01:00:47.658
but start slow.

1340
01:00:48.738 --> 01:00:49.378
please start.

1341
01:00:50.239 --> 01:00:50.379
Okay.

1342
01:00:50.939 --> 01:00:51.059
Yeah.

1343
01:00:51.179 --> 01:00:52.560
The message is out there.

1344
01:00:53.401 --> 01:00:53.581
Um,

1345
01:00:54.681 --> 01:00:56.983
it's been a beautiful conversation in a beautiful place.

1346
01:00:57.043 --> 01:00:57.803
I really loved it.

1347
01:00:57.783 --> 01:00:58.884
So thank you so much for that.

1348
01:00:59.704 --> 01:00:59.924
And,

1349
01:01:00.044 --> 01:01:00.164
uh,

1350
01:01:00.164 --> 01:01:01.765
we're going to close the conversation here,

1351
01:01:01.845 --> 01:01:02.045
but,

1352
01:01:02.206 --> 01:01:02.546
uh,

1353
01:01:02.546 --> 01:01:05.047
I'm looking forward to see what the future brings to

1354
01:01:05.387 --> 01:01:06.948
Maison Mihabo in this beautiful vineyard.

1355
01:01:07.649 --> 01:01:07.809
Well,

1356
01:01:07.869 --> 01:01:08.549
thanks for visiting.

1357
01:01:08.569 --> 01:01:10.450
And I think we should probably open a bottle of wine fairly soon.

1358
01:01:10.890 --> 01:01:11.351
That'd be great.

1359
01:01:11.891 --> 01:01:12.191
Thank you.