WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.884 --> 00:00:04.084 Hello! 2 00:00:04.725 --> 00:00:06.086 Passionate about sustainability, 3 00:00:06.226 --> 00:00:07.107 energy and climate? 4 00:00:07.667 --> 00:00:08.548 You're in the right place. 5 00:00:08.888 --> 00:00:09.949 Welcome to Energetic. 6 00:00:10.530 --> 00:00:18.457 I'm Maureen Cornelis and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen. 7 00:00:19.177 --> 00:00:20.378 They may be activists, 8 00:00:20.578 --> 00:00:21.219 scientists, 9 00:00:21.579 --> 00:00:24.762 policy makers or other enthusiasts just like you. 10 00:00:25.503 --> 00:00:31.568 Let their life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet. 11 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:37.621 So today we welcome on the show William Brandt, 12 00:00:37.881 --> 00:00:41.162 who is a climate solution advocate and entrepreneur. 13 00:00:41.842 --> 00:00:44.263 He's the CMO of Hesk Power Systems, 14 00:00:44.443 --> 00:00:48.304 where he helps lead one of the world's top community solar companies, 15 00:00:48.524 --> 00:00:52.445 named among Fast Company's most innovative companies of 2024. 16 00:00:53.005 --> 00:00:54.145 And before that, 17 00:00:54.225 --> 00:00:55.626 he co-founded Power for All, 18 00:00:55.826 --> 00:00:58.227 an NGO focused on ending energy poverty, 19 00:00:58.767 --> 00:01:01.487 and led the clean tech practice at Weber Schoenwick, 20 00:01:01.628 --> 00:01:03.028 a global marketing agency. 21 00:01:03.756 --> 00:01:04.096 William, 22 00:01:04.376 --> 00:01:05.157 welcome to the show. 23 00:01:05.377 --> 00:01:06.697 I'm delighted to have you here. 24 00:01:07.518 --> 00:01:08.438 Thank you so much. 25 00:01:08.458 --> 00:01:09.118 It's great to be here. 26 00:01:09.738 --> 00:01:10.299 Thank you so much. 27 00:01:10.419 --> 00:01:10.779 William, 28 00:01:11.059 --> 00:01:14.560 you've had quite a diverse career in the energy space, 29 00:01:15.041 --> 00:01:18.902 from co-founding PowerFall to leading marketing at Aspire Systems. 30 00:01:19.362 --> 00:01:24.664 So what drew you first to work on energy justice, 31 00:01:24.704 --> 00:01:27.346 this kind of systemic inequities we see in the energy sector, 32 00:01:27.806 --> 00:01:30.727 and how has your perspective evolved over time? 33 00:01:31.607 --> 00:01:33.008 So I think originally my... 34 00:01:33.548 --> 00:01:41.551 inspiration for getting involved in climate and climate solutions was sparked by my time in China. 35 00:01:42.232 --> 00:01:54.977 I lived in China for 15 years during a period where the country was essentially going from a very undeveloped economy coming out of the Cultural Revolution to the time I left when it had already been started to boom, 36 00:01:55.057 --> 00:02:00.359 where private industry was being encouraged after decades of state control. 37 00:02:01.019 --> 00:02:02.1000 And that was an exciting backdrop. 38 00:02:03.576 --> 00:02:03.876 for my 39 00:02:04.357 --> 00:02:09.120 20s to be a witness to that incredible transformation that started in the early 40 00:02:09.600 --> 00:02:10.801 90s, early mid-90s. 41 00:02:11.581 --> 00:02:17.485 But it also made me realize that the limits of the traditional model for development, 42 00:02:17.605 --> 00:02:18.566 economic development, 43 00:02:19.226 --> 00:02:21.788 especially as the question of climate change, 44 00:02:21.868 --> 00:02:22.629 global warming, 45 00:02:22.849 --> 00:02:25.851 started to really come to the forefront of the global discussion. 46 00:02:26.551 --> 00:02:27.832 It was pretty clear to me that 47 00:02:28.160 --> 00:02:34.944 despite the excitement and the benefits to the Chinese people that were coming from this economic explosion that was happening, 48 00:02:35.624 --> 00:02:38.926 that there were going to be huge ramifications globally in terms of climate, 49 00:02:39.006 --> 00:02:40.007 environmental impact. 50 00:02:40.147 --> 00:02:43.469 And after watching that transition within China, 51 00:02:44.249 --> 00:02:47.471 I decided that I had been in the media and entertainment business prior to that. 52 00:02:47.491 --> 00:02:52.534 I thought I really would rather do something that was a little bit more meaningful to me that I thought I could make an impact on. 53 00:02:52.574 --> 00:02:53.955 And so I moved back to the U.S. 54 00:02:53.995 --> 00:02:55.295 from China in the early 55 00:02:55.756 --> 00:02:55.876 2000s. 56 00:02:56.980 --> 00:02:58.481 started to focus on these issues. 57 00:02:58.661 --> 00:02:58.941 And then 58 00:02:59.521 --> 00:03:00.702 10, 15 years later, 59 00:03:01.142 --> 00:03:02.282 having moved from the U.S. 60 00:03:02.342 --> 00:03:07.004 to Europe and always had a very strong interest in Africa and the global south, 61 00:03:07.164 --> 00:03:25.192 I was able to start to do more that sort of bridged both the climate impact and the people impact by focusing on energy access and the role for renewable energy and other clean tech solutions to actually accelerate access to electricity and clean cooking for the... 62 00:03:25.452 --> 00:03:29.194 hundreds of millions of people in the global South who still don't have it. 63 00:03:29.674 --> 00:03:30.934 The arc of my career, 64 00:03:31.335 --> 00:03:33.015 in a brief description, 65 00:03:33.696 --> 00:03:41.059 things have certainly changed in terms of the energy access agenda since I've been involved in that now for about a decade. 66 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:43.280 It's really elevated. 67 00:03:43.420 --> 00:03:43.600 It's 68 00:03:43.880 --> 00:03:46.122 position in a global development discussion. 69 00:03:46.262 --> 00:03:49.124 That's now a key priority of the World Bank, 70 00:03:49.144 --> 00:03:50.365 the African Development Bank, 71 00:03:50.405 --> 00:03:54.568 and in terms of a new initiative that they've launched earlier this year called Mission 300, 72 00:03:54.628 --> 00:03:55.548 which is to connect, 73 00:03:55.969 --> 00:03:56.529 not to connect, 74 00:03:56.549 --> 00:03:58.690 but to bring energy access to 300 million people. 75 00:03:58.690 --> 00:04:02.713 So that would not have been the case 10 years ago when 76 00:04:03.074 --> 00:04:04.515 I first started working on this issue. 77 00:04:04.535 --> 00:04:12.060 So that's a very encouraging sign that this is a target that people are now taking very seriously and trying to mobilize resources. 78 00:04:12.632 --> 00:04:13.973 financial and otherwise, 79 00:04:14.353 --> 00:04:15.914 to finally end energy poverty. 80 00:04:16.154 --> 00:04:16.274 Yeah, 81 00:04:16.414 --> 00:04:24.059 it's really fascinating to hear you talk about how your career has evolved and over also over the past 82 00:04:24.419 --> 00:04:25.560 30, 40 years. 83 00:04:26.020 --> 00:04:26.660 And your, 84 00:04:26.880 --> 00:04:27.181 let's say, 85 00:04:27.301 --> 00:04:31.163 take on the world has evolved as well and through across different continents. 86 00:04:31.483 --> 00:04:38.127 It's not often that I have guests on the show who are able to talk about the situation in very different settings, 87 00:04:38.167 --> 00:04:39.268 different continents and over. 88 00:04:39.728 --> 00:04:40.628 different periods of time, 89 00:04:40.728 --> 00:04:40.948 right? 90 00:04:41.089 --> 00:04:42.069 I was born in the 91 00:04:42.469 --> 00:04:43.569 80s. You're saying I'm old? 92 00:04:43.569 --> 00:04:44.170 Is that what you're saying? 93 00:04:44.310 --> 00:04:45.350 Yeah. 94 00:04:45.370 --> 00:04:45.670 I mean, 95 00:04:45.710 --> 00:04:46.851 we get a lot from you. 96 00:04:47.271 --> 00:04:48.851 You have a lot of wisdom to share. 97 00:04:49.071 --> 00:04:49.972 Because I was born in the 98 00:04:50.372 --> 00:04:56.094 80s, so I never knew a world that was different from the kind of economic boom of China. 99 00:04:56.354 --> 00:04:59.155 What I can hear from what you say is that there is, 100 00:04:59.575 --> 00:05:04.777 you had this kind of aha moment where you start questioning really the models that we were building on. 101 00:05:05.373 --> 00:05:07.574 And you've been also witnessing how, 102 00:05:07.994 --> 00:05:08.374 let's say, 103 00:05:08.614 --> 00:05:14.977 the energy and access and overall equity has been challenged and redefined over time, 104 00:05:15.017 --> 00:05:15.217 right? 105 00:05:15.297 --> 00:05:17.038 But you are a thinker, 106 00:05:17.178 --> 00:05:18.178 you're also a doer, 107 00:05:18.318 --> 00:05:20.359 and that's why you are involved in different initiatives. 108 00:05:20.379 --> 00:05:24.501 But recently we reconnected because we have been in touch for quite some time, 109 00:05:24.501 --> 00:05:26.642 but we reconnected because you wrote an article, 110 00:05:27.062 --> 00:05:28.182 you shared it on LinkedIn, 111 00:05:28.782 --> 00:05:30.063 which was exactly about that, 112 00:05:30.103 --> 00:05:34.525 about how the vision of the sustainable development goals, 113 00:05:35.045 --> 00:05:41.970 energy justice needs to be adapted and be a little bit more grounded into reality, 114 00:05:42.110 --> 00:05:42.311 right? 115 00:05:42.671 --> 00:05:43.331 In this article, 116 00:05:43.391 --> 00:05:45.633 you argue that the Sustainable Development Goals, 117 00:05:46.154 --> 00:05:46.754 SDGs, 118 00:05:47.034 --> 00:05:47.695 in particular, 119 00:05:47.835 --> 00:05:48.555 number seven, 120 00:05:48.635 --> 00:05:49.936 which is on energy access, 121 00:05:50.817 --> 00:05:51.818 are missing the mark. 122 00:05:52.318 --> 00:05:57.102 And you just said that there were some really important initiatives from the World Bank, 123 00:05:57.602 --> 00:05:59.023 and I will let you develop on this, 124 00:05:59.063 --> 00:06:01.065 but can you explain what it says? 125 00:06:01.305 --> 00:06:05.869 as the biggest systemic issues preventing us from achieving universal energy access. 126 00:06:06.049 --> 00:06:07.350 You have decades of experience, 127 00:06:07.350 --> 00:06:13.175 so that's really fascinating to hear what you have seen also as positive point and failures, 128 00:06:13.235 --> 00:06:13.455 right? 129 00:06:14.296 --> 00:06:14.456 Yeah, 130 00:06:14.496 --> 00:06:15.377 so on the positive, 131 00:06:15.637 --> 00:06:16.337 let's start there. 132 00:06:16.638 --> 00:06:20.161 There's an industry that's been built up over the past, 133 00:06:20.401 --> 00:06:20.761 let's say, 134 00:06:20.861 --> 00:06:21.722 15 years, 135 00:06:22.022 --> 00:06:25.245 focused on delivering energy access in the global south. 136 00:06:25.485 --> 00:06:28.067 This is still a huge issue. 137 00:06:28.347 --> 00:06:29.708 I would say it's a human rights issue, 138 00:06:29.768 --> 00:06:30.269 ultimately. 139 00:06:30.877 --> 00:06:37.141 where you have around 700 million people in the global south who have zero access to electricity. 140 00:06:37.141 --> 00:06:39.482 You have many more who have no access to clean cooking. 141 00:06:39.902 --> 00:06:46.286 And the private sector solutions to solve that problem started to emerge in about a decade ago. 142 00:06:47.027 --> 00:06:54.491 You had companies that were starting to take advantage of the decline in solar PV and other renewable energy technologies, 143 00:06:54.751 --> 00:06:55.732 battery storage, 144 00:06:56.532 --> 00:06:57.813 and delivering. 145 00:06:58.305 --> 00:07:06.672 basic levels of electricity that allowed people with no electricity to have lights in their home, 146 00:07:06.732 --> 00:07:08.733 to charge their cell phones, 147 00:07:08.854 --> 00:07:12.657 to maybe power a couple of small appliances. 148 00:07:13.297 --> 00:07:19.862 And they innovated both business model and technology to achieve incredible results over that 10 years, 149 00:07:20.003 --> 00:07:24.786 where you now have hundreds of millions of people in those communities in sub-Saharan Africa, 150 00:07:25.007 --> 00:07:25.527 South Asia, 151 00:07:25.547 --> 00:07:27.989 and elsewhere who have access to basic... 152 00:07:28.229 --> 00:07:29.049 levels of electricity. 153 00:07:29.069 --> 00:07:33.551 And that's a phenomenal improvement of what was there before, 154 00:07:33.631 --> 00:07:33.831 right? 155 00:07:33.851 --> 00:07:37.313 Where you had generations of people in these countries who had, 156 00:07:37.753 --> 00:07:38.734 nobody was thinking of them. 157 00:07:38.774 --> 00:07:40.774 No one was really doing anything to that for, 158 00:07:40.895 --> 00:07:42.095 to address this issue. 159 00:07:42.815 --> 00:07:45.136 The extending the grid had been talked about forever. 160 00:07:45.637 --> 00:07:46.377 Nothing was happening. 161 00:07:46.397 --> 00:07:50.559 So these companies came in and they did some incredible work and continue to do that work. 162 00:07:50.619 --> 00:07:55.661 The issue is that because of the economics of both the consumer and the product. 163 00:07:56.021 --> 00:07:58.542 many people still can't afford these solutions. 164 00:07:59.423 --> 00:08:00.323 That's one dynamic. 165 00:08:00.363 --> 00:08:01.064 At the same time, 166 00:08:01.144 --> 00:08:05.526 even the people who can't afford those solutions often want more than what they can provide, 167 00:08:05.606 --> 00:08:05.826 right? 168 00:08:05.886 --> 00:08:15.051 I think that there is a human nature for us to want to have access to the things that our cousins or friends in cities have. 169 00:08:15.091 --> 00:08:17.853 If you're living in a rural or peri-urban areas in these countries, 170 00:08:17.873 --> 00:08:19.594 you want to have a better life. 171 00:08:19.614 --> 00:08:20.334 And what does that mean? 172 00:08:20.354 --> 00:08:24.817 It means you need enough energy that can empower an economy. 173 00:08:24.937 --> 00:08:25.057 So 174 00:08:25.769 --> 00:08:28.030 While accessing phone charging, 175 00:08:28.150 --> 00:08:29.450 lighting is important, 176 00:08:30.030 --> 00:08:33.631 it's really not what ultimately people want at the end of the day, 177 00:08:33.711 --> 00:08:33.931 right? 178 00:08:33.951 --> 00:08:37.152 The human nature is that I want to be able to live my best life. 179 00:08:37.192 --> 00:08:39.053 I want access to education, 180 00:08:39.193 --> 00:08:39.773 healthcare, 181 00:08:40.173 --> 00:08:42.214 all the things that energy enable, 182 00:08:42.374 --> 00:08:42.614 right? 183 00:08:42.994 --> 00:08:44.814 Where we are today is that number one, 184 00:08:45.014 --> 00:08:47.375 we're still only reaching the cream of the crop, 185 00:08:47.415 --> 00:08:47.955 if you will. 186 00:08:48.515 --> 00:08:49.796 These are still people who are, 187 00:08:50.016 --> 00:08:53.617 they don't earn a lot of money in the bottom of the pyramid structure. 188 00:08:54.165 --> 00:08:55.986 which sort of is what we're talking about, 189 00:08:56.506 --> 00:08:59.507 people who have the lowest incomes in the world, 190 00:09:00.147 --> 00:09:02.068 we're only still reaching the top of that pyramid, 191 00:09:02.188 --> 00:09:02.408 right? 192 00:09:02.548 --> 00:09:05.550 The middle of that pyramid and the bottom of that pyramid are still out of reach. 193 00:09:05.570 --> 00:09:06.410 So number one, 194 00:09:06.410 --> 00:09:07.891 we have to figure out, 195 00:09:08.131 --> 00:09:16.814 are we doing enough to give additional energy services to the people who already have it that we've brought electricity to over the past decade? 196 00:09:16.814 --> 00:09:18.835 But also how do we reach those people at the bottom, 197 00:09:18.995 --> 00:09:19.775 the middle and the bottom, 198 00:09:19.835 --> 00:09:20.036 right? 199 00:09:20.036 --> 00:09:21.976 Who are totally forgotten and being left behind. 200 00:09:22.737 --> 00:09:23.437 So I think it's a 201 00:09:23.637 --> 00:09:24.737 two-part dynamic, 202 00:09:24.797 --> 00:09:24.937 right? 203 00:09:24.937 --> 00:09:25.658 On the one hand, 204 00:09:26.178 --> 00:09:35.300 we have to continue up that energy ladder with the people that we've already provided basic levels of electricity to and try and create more opportunity for them, 205 00:09:35.860 --> 00:09:41.402 while we also have to figure out what are the models that can actually deliver electricity to the people in the middle and the bottom of that pyramid. 206 00:09:41.442 --> 00:09:46.003 And I think the institutions that we have today are from another era, 207 00:09:46.263 --> 00:09:46.503 right? 208 00:09:46.503 --> 00:09:50.284 They were created when many of the solutions that we're talking about didn't exist. 209 00:09:50.724 --> 00:09:51.885 They're used to doing... 210 00:09:51.885 --> 00:09:53.085 And no longer fit for purpose, 211 00:09:53.105 --> 00:09:53.225 yeah? 212 00:09:53.465 --> 00:09:54.046 Yeah, 213 00:09:54.226 --> 00:09:54.607 exactly. 214 00:09:54.907 --> 00:09:56.049 Or time or purpose. 215 00:09:56.049 --> 00:09:59.874 And these are endemic problems that have been around for generations. 216 00:10:00.054 --> 00:10:01.596 And unless there's a shift, 217 00:10:02.357 --> 00:10:07.745 not only in mindset and that the leaders of these institutions really are serious about reforming them. 218 00:10:08.305 --> 00:10:11.167 We're not going to be able to solve this problem. 219 00:10:11.227 --> 00:10:12.829 And that's what SDG 7 is. 220 00:10:13.109 --> 00:10:15.511 The stated goal is to solve this issue by 2030. 221 00:10:16.291 --> 00:10:18.113 And we're very far off track from doing that. 222 00:10:18.193 --> 00:10:18.613 In fact, 223 00:10:18.673 --> 00:10:20.154 we're actually growing. 224 00:10:20.194 --> 00:10:23.697 The population of unelectrified is growing instead of decreasing now. 225 00:10:23.897 --> 00:10:25.498 It decreased for quite some time, 226 00:10:25.498 --> 00:10:26.980 but now it's starting to grow back again. 227 00:10:27.020 --> 00:10:28.481 And are the World Bank, 228 00:10:28.621 --> 00:10:29.742 are the African Development Bank, 229 00:10:29.742 --> 00:10:30.762 the right institutions, 230 00:10:30.762 --> 00:10:31.843 is the United Nations? 231 00:10:32.264 --> 00:10:33.825 Does it have a role to play here? 232 00:10:34.265 --> 00:10:35.445 I think there are big question marks, 233 00:10:35.485 --> 00:10:37.006 development finance institutions, 234 00:10:37.566 --> 00:10:39.086 even governments and private sector. 235 00:10:39.286 --> 00:10:43.107 I think there are still a lot of legacy systems in place. 236 00:10:43.187 --> 00:10:45.248 And unless those change quickly, 237 00:10:45.968 --> 00:10:49.369 I think the chance that we're going to achieve these goals is really out of reach. 238 00:10:49.589 --> 00:10:49.869 And so 239 00:10:50.429 --> 00:10:55.111 I think it's encouraging that there's a greater focus on this issue now. 240 00:10:55.791 --> 00:11:02.573 But I have serious concerns about whether the institutions we're discussing are actually the ones who can solve the problem. 241 00:11:02.773 --> 00:11:03.773 And if they can't. 242 00:11:04.309 --> 00:11:05.410 Then the question becomes, 243 00:11:06.070 --> 00:11:09.072 what other alternatives need to be developed? 244 00:11:09.232 --> 00:11:14.875 Or how did those institutions reform quickly in order to meet their mandate? 245 00:11:14.995 --> 00:11:16.836 And I think the article that you referenced, 246 00:11:16.996 --> 00:11:18.657 those are some of the questions I was raising, 247 00:11:18.677 --> 00:11:20.118 but also trying to think about, 248 00:11:20.158 --> 00:11:20.338 okay, 249 00:11:20.418 --> 00:11:22.419 what are the solutions to making that possible? 250 00:11:23.059 --> 00:11:24.020 We'll get into it now. 251 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:24.880 But in the article, 252 00:11:24.921 --> 00:11:26.922 you coined the term access washing, 253 00:11:27.442 --> 00:11:27.622 which 254 00:11:27.982 --> 00:11:32.785 I think is really perfect to highlight this kind of misleading progress in energy access. 255 00:11:32.825 --> 00:11:32.945 This 256 00:11:33.269 --> 00:11:36.712 It's basically you make one step up and two step back. 257 00:11:36.972 --> 00:11:40.375 And what kind of real world example have you noticed? 258 00:11:40.575 --> 00:11:44.459 You just mentioned people from the top tier accessing more electricity, 259 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:45.339 but on the bottom, 260 00:11:45.680 --> 00:11:48.662 not getting any more electricity that they would actually need. 261 00:11:49.103 --> 00:11:54.327 Is it something from your experience with the different company organizations you've worked on? 262 00:11:54.547 --> 00:11:57.090 Are they particular examples that you could share? 263 00:11:57.690 --> 00:12:00.953 Because most of the listeners of the show are in Europe. 264 00:12:01.385 --> 00:12:06.427 And they may not know so much about the challenges in the developing countries. 265 00:12:06.467 --> 00:12:06.627 Right. 266 00:12:06.627 --> 00:12:08.548 So can you share a few examples? 267 00:12:08.688 --> 00:12:12.369 I think what you essentially said is that there is somehow a, 268 00:12:12.730 --> 00:12:12.970 let's say, 269 00:12:12.970 --> 00:12:19.832 a privatization of energy access or the process because many governments and public institutions cannot get to that. 270 00:12:19.852 --> 00:12:21.693 So can you share some examples? 271 00:12:21.733 --> 00:12:21.893 Right. 272 00:12:23.054 --> 00:12:26.895 So in terms of this idea of access washing, 273 00:12:27.255 --> 00:12:30.877 I was intentionally being trying to be provocative because. 274 00:12:31.341 --> 00:12:37.246 I think there's oftentimes a lot of people patting each other on the back for what we've already achieved, 275 00:12:37.707 --> 00:12:38.748 when in fact, 276 00:12:38.748 --> 00:12:41.770 if you go back to the sustainable development goal framework, 277 00:12:41.830 --> 00:12:43.472 especially for energy access, 278 00:12:44.073 --> 00:12:46.775 it states clearly that the goal is affordable, 279 00:12:46.915 --> 00:12:47.576 sustainable, 280 00:12:47.696 --> 00:12:48.336 reliable, 281 00:12:48.577 --> 00:12:49.858 and modern energy. 282 00:12:50.739 --> 00:12:53.801 And there's a lot of debate about what modern means, 283 00:12:54.082 --> 00:12:56.123 and I don't want to get into that because I think it's, 284 00:12:56.504 --> 00:12:57.565 we don't have enough time, 285 00:12:57.605 --> 00:12:57.725 but... 286 00:12:58.345 --> 00:12:59.466 If you just take modern, 287 00:12:59.526 --> 00:13:01.468 that word at its face value, 288 00:13:02.288 --> 00:13:04.650 what would you and I define as modern electricity, 289 00:13:04.750 --> 00:13:04.991 right? 290 00:13:05.071 --> 00:13:05.551 It would be, 291 00:13:05.791 --> 00:13:06.592 or as energy, 292 00:13:06.712 --> 00:13:06.892 right? 293 00:13:06.892 --> 00:13:07.212 It would be, 294 00:13:07.593 --> 00:13:13.017 I could have multiple appliances in my home and afford to have those, 295 00:13:13.157 --> 00:13:13.338 right? 296 00:13:13.338 --> 00:13:14.579 And it would be energy efficient. 297 00:13:15.119 --> 00:13:22.625 And I could buy machines for my business or for my farming operations that would allow me to mechanize and create more income and create, 298 00:13:22.705 --> 00:13:24.066 build my business or my, 299 00:13:24.487 --> 00:13:25.688 whatever it is that I'm doing, 300 00:13:26.008 --> 00:13:26.869 hire more people. 301 00:13:27.429 --> 00:13:29.711 create economic opportunity for my neighbors. 302 00:13:30.231 --> 00:13:31.132 That's modern energy, 303 00:13:31.252 --> 00:13:31.492 right? 304 00:13:31.772 --> 00:13:33.914 So this is within the UN framework. 305 00:13:34.054 --> 00:13:36.216 That's one of the goals for SDG 7. 306 00:13:36.716 --> 00:13:39.398 If that is part of the target, 307 00:13:39.678 --> 00:13:43.861 we need to be honest with ourselves that even though we've made huge progress over the past decade, 308 00:13:43.881 --> 00:13:46.003 we're still not providing people with modern energy. 309 00:13:46.644 --> 00:13:47.524 And in that sense, 310 00:13:48.185 --> 00:13:49.706 it is access washing, 311 00:13:49.746 --> 00:13:49.906 right? 312 00:13:49.926 --> 00:13:51.827 Because you are providing access to energy, 313 00:13:52.428 --> 00:13:53.789 but it's the bare minimum. 314 00:13:54.369 --> 00:13:55.150 And if the goal, 315 00:13:55.250 --> 00:13:55.910 as stated by 316 00:13:56.270 --> 00:13:56.931 SDG 7, 317 00:13:56.991 --> 00:13:57.771 is modern energy, 318 00:13:57.791 --> 00:13:59.632 or at least one of the goals is modern energy, 319 00:14:00.112 --> 00:14:04.635 then we need to be honest with ourselves as a community that we're not achieving that ambition. 320 00:14:04.975 --> 00:14:08.517 And so I also worry that the institutions that are trying to, 321 00:14:08.797 --> 00:14:09.477 so for example, 322 00:14:09.518 --> 00:14:14.360 this Mission 300 program that the World Bank and African Development Bank launched earlier this year, 323 00:14:14.920 --> 00:14:18.883 it's to bring electricity to 300 million people in Africa by 2030. 324 00:14:19.703 --> 00:14:21.204 So that's fantastic, 325 00:14:21.484 --> 00:14:21.724 right? 326 00:14:22.124 --> 00:14:23.145 It's great to have that. 327 00:14:23.425 --> 00:14:25.587 momentum and moving in that direction. 328 00:14:25.747 --> 00:14:32.091 But are we going to be tracking for basic levels of energy access or modern levels of energy access? 329 00:14:32.251 --> 00:14:34.473 And we need to be very clear, 330 00:14:35.233 --> 00:14:36.234 not only with ourselves, 331 00:14:36.254 --> 00:14:39.716 but also with the people who are going to be accessing that energy access, 332 00:14:39.876 --> 00:14:42.098 what it is we're actually trying to achieve. 333 00:14:42.978 --> 00:14:48.442 So you could make the case that what we've provided to date is not modern energy and therefore it's access washing. 334 00:14:48.482 --> 00:14:52.445 So even though if we have provided basic levels of access to hundreds of millions of people. 335 00:14:53.317 --> 00:14:54.038 It's not modern, 336 00:14:54.558 --> 00:14:54.778 right? 337 00:14:54.918 --> 00:14:55.879 So is it washing? 338 00:14:55.999 --> 00:14:58.521 I think that's a question that we need to really look hard at. 339 00:14:59.141 --> 00:14:59.281 Yeah, 340 00:14:59.521 --> 00:15:00.822 I totally agree with you. 341 00:15:01.002 --> 00:15:02.544 I did some work in Africa, 342 00:15:02.624 --> 00:15:03.764 as the listeners know. 343 00:15:04.045 --> 00:15:06.887 And what I really noticed as part of, 344 00:15:07.167 --> 00:15:07.427 let's say, 345 00:15:07.407 --> 00:15:11.610 the broader conversation is that we were never mentioning the quality of the electricity supplied, 346 00:15:11.630 --> 00:15:11.810 right? 347 00:15:12.210 --> 00:15:12.730 It was like, 348 00:15:12.770 --> 00:15:12.891 OK, 349 00:15:13.211 --> 00:15:14.452 now you have solar panels, 350 00:15:14.592 --> 00:15:15.092 you're good to go. 351 00:15:15.532 --> 00:15:15.652 No, 352 00:15:15.832 --> 00:15:16.753 it's not only about that. 353 00:15:17.013 --> 00:15:21.756 It's being sure that you actually get what you paid for. 354 00:15:22.217 --> 00:15:25.139 You actually are engaged in a proper conversation saying, 355 00:15:25.199 --> 00:15:25.319 OK, 356 00:15:25.439 --> 00:15:27.961 you will have access to electricity only for six hours a day, 357 00:15:28.221 --> 00:15:29.622 but maybe it's sufficient. 358 00:15:30.062 --> 00:15:35.566 But at least when you are not like embarking in this kind of white savior approach where, 359 00:15:36.286 --> 00:15:36.566 let's say, 360 00:15:36.566 --> 00:15:41.590 the provider of the service or the solution or the organization that will help you. 361 00:15:42.294 --> 00:15:49.819 will tell you something that is actually not what it is and that is deceptive at least, 362 00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:54.002 or not making such a huge difference in your life at the end of the day. 363 00:15:54.062 --> 00:16:05.510 So I guess it's also about overcoming the fact that people are living without electricity and they are coping in certain ways and they need to be... 364 00:16:06.422 --> 00:16:12.924 way more part of the conversation and ask what they actually want and how we can always improve, 365 00:16:13.004 --> 00:16:13.224 right? 366 00:16:13.284 --> 00:16:15.265 Because it's not only about the base, 367 00:16:15.665 --> 00:16:20.906 having access to electricity a few hours a day for a few services like charging your phone or a little lamp, 368 00:16:21.286 --> 00:16:28.288 but also being able to provide a certain quality of the service in a certain way with certain respect for consumer rights and so on. 369 00:16:28.868 --> 00:16:29.228 Yeah, 370 00:16:29.228 --> 00:16:29.949 but I think it's all, 371 00:16:30.109 --> 00:16:33.850 so it also comes down to a recognition that, 372 00:16:34.170 --> 00:16:34.470 you know, 373 00:16:35.226 --> 00:16:36.146 Rural electrification, 374 00:16:36.967 --> 00:16:38.928 wherever it's happened in the world, 375 00:16:39.008 --> 00:16:48.251 has been heavily subsidized by the state or by other organizations that can provide subsidy or concessional capital to make that possible. 376 00:16:48.832 --> 00:17:02.878 I think there was this pipe dream at the beginning of our industry that the private sector would come in and be able to save the day and provide electricity to all of the unelectrified people who are suffering from energy poverty still for generations. 377 00:17:02.918 --> 00:17:03.738 But the reality is that... 378 00:17:04.018 --> 00:17:06.259 Even the private sector has limitations to what it can do, 379 00:17:06.499 --> 00:17:06.720 right? 380 00:17:06.820 --> 00:17:09.501 And we've done a lot over the past decade. 381 00:17:10.462 --> 00:17:20.227 There needs to be a recognition that there are many people who suffer from energy poverty in these communities who are never going to be able to afford the services that we're talking about. 382 00:17:20.327 --> 00:17:20.967 And if they are, 383 00:17:20.967 --> 00:17:24.609 it's going to take a long time for them to be able to pay for these services. 384 00:17:24.729 --> 00:17:30.592 If you recognize that the model for rural electrification has always relied heavily on subsidy, 385 00:17:30.933 --> 00:17:32.834 then there needs to be a real serious cut, 386 00:17:32.874 --> 00:17:33.034 real... 387 00:17:33.454 --> 00:17:36.437 very serious conversation about where that capital will come from. 388 00:17:37.057 --> 00:17:40.039 Is it going to come from the governments of those countries? 389 00:17:40.080 --> 00:17:42.782 Is it going to come from development finance institutions, 390 00:17:42.862 --> 00:17:43.442 philanthropy? 391 00:17:44.483 --> 00:17:49.507 And that's a huge blind spot and a huge gap in terms of capital available to do that. 392 00:17:49.507 --> 00:17:50.068 But if we're going to, 393 00:17:50.268 --> 00:17:51.949 let's say of the 300 million of this mission, 394 00:17:51.989 --> 00:17:52.470 300, 395 00:17:53.170 --> 00:17:58.234 100 million of them can't afford the services that we're talking about. 396 00:17:58.295 --> 00:17:59.235 Who's going to pay for that, 397 00:17:59.455 --> 00:17:59.696 right? 398 00:18:00.056 --> 00:18:02.238 I think that's a huge gap currently. 399 00:18:02.714 --> 00:18:07.237 And I also think it comes back to a lot of the development finance institutions, 400 00:18:07.317 --> 00:18:08.857 which I also talk about in that article, 401 00:18:08.897 --> 00:18:13.920 which is that they were founded upon the mandate of trying to end poverty, 402 00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:14.641 essentially, 403 00:18:14.701 --> 00:18:14.961 right? 404 00:18:15.201 --> 00:18:22.505 But they've evolved over the decades since their creation into entities that are essentially looking for commercial returns on their investments, 405 00:18:22.605 --> 00:18:22.805 right? 406 00:18:22.845 --> 00:18:26.247 As opposed to putting in risk capital that they're willing to lose, 407 00:18:26.327 --> 00:18:26.547 right? 408 00:18:26.587 --> 00:18:31.930 Or that there's the potential that it might be lost and that they won't make a return on that investment. 409 00:18:32.638 --> 00:18:33.338 But that's totally, 410 00:18:33.819 --> 00:18:34.199 I would say, 411 00:18:34.239 --> 00:18:35.039 for the most part, 412 00:18:35.239 --> 00:18:38.260 it's that mindset has disappeared, 413 00:18:38.521 --> 00:18:38.641 right? 414 00:18:38.721 --> 00:18:46.664 And so you have a huge gap there that needs to be addressed in terms of what is the mandate for the development finance institutions? 415 00:18:46.784 --> 00:18:49.445 Are they actually investing risk capital? 416 00:18:50.026 --> 00:18:51.366 Are they willing to take a loss? 417 00:18:51.786 --> 00:18:53.807 Are they fulfilling their original mandate? 418 00:18:54.468 --> 00:18:56.208 And I think the answer, 419 00:18:56.628 --> 00:18:57.169 unfortunately, 420 00:18:57.209 --> 00:18:58.389 today is probably not. 421 00:18:58.629 --> 00:18:59.770 And that needs to be... 422 00:19:00.390 --> 00:19:00.830 addressed, 423 00:19:00.951 --> 00:19:01.191 right? 424 00:19:01.351 --> 00:19:03.653 And you also have in Europe in particular, 425 00:19:04.113 --> 00:19:08.156 this resurgence of the far right movements at the national level, 426 00:19:08.257 --> 00:19:11.059 which means a retrenchment in overseas development funding, 427 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:12.940 which is a separate dynamic as well, 428 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:14.502 which is going to make it even more difficult. 429 00:19:14.582 --> 00:19:20.226 So you have these two different dynamics that were both looking more internally, 430 00:19:20.507 --> 00:19:22.268 globally within the advanced economies, 431 00:19:22.408 --> 00:19:24.830 not willing to fund development as much as they used to, 432 00:19:24.930 --> 00:19:29.514 but also the type of funding that they're putting out there is also not what. 433 00:19:29.882 --> 00:19:30.542 It's supposed to be. 434 00:19:30.803 --> 00:19:31.023 Right. 435 00:19:31.163 --> 00:19:36.125 And so there are a lot of things that I think go unspoken or if they are spoken, 436 00:19:36.166 --> 00:19:37.566 they're spoken about in private. 437 00:19:38.267 --> 00:19:41.669 And it really needs to become a more public discourse about this. 438 00:19:41.709 --> 00:19:43.109 And it has to also include governments. 439 00:19:43.149 --> 00:19:43.309 Right. 440 00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:44.810 A lot of governments are already in Africa, 441 00:19:44.850 --> 00:19:45.311 for example, 442 00:19:45.331 --> 00:19:46.191 are doing quite a bit. 443 00:19:46.831 --> 00:19:47.312 Nigeria, 444 00:19:47.352 --> 00:19:47.872 for example, 445 00:19:47.912 --> 00:19:48.172 I think, 446 00:19:48.212 --> 00:19:52.775 has taken more than a billion dollars of loans from the World Bank to try and address this issue. 447 00:19:52.815 --> 00:19:55.476 And so they're stepping up and taking their responsibility. 448 00:19:55.496 --> 00:19:58.698 But these other institutions have to do the same in a way. 449 00:19:59.322 --> 00:20:01.745 that recognizes that middle of the pyramid, 450 00:20:01.866 --> 00:20:02.867 bottom of the pyramid, 451 00:20:03.007 --> 00:20:10.337 they're not going to get electrified unless there's a huge amount of subsidy to do that on an ongoing basis, 452 00:20:10.397 --> 00:20:10.577 right? 453 00:20:10.637 --> 00:20:11.679 This may be perpetual. 454 00:20:11.999 --> 00:20:12.420 We don't know. 455 00:20:13.136 --> 00:20:15.457 This is how it's happened worldwide. 456 00:20:16.237 --> 00:20:16.617 Africa, 457 00:20:17.057 --> 00:20:18.517 South Asia should be no exception, 458 00:20:19.138 --> 00:20:20.658 but that capital is not available. 459 00:20:20.798 --> 00:20:25.159 And also I would say that these are communities that are the most climate vulnerable. 460 00:20:25.679 --> 00:20:25.859 Yeah. 461 00:20:26.060 --> 00:20:26.200 Yeah. 462 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:29.400 They've had the least contribution to climate change, 463 00:20:30.181 --> 00:20:32.641 but they're still receiving the communities, 464 00:20:33.041 --> 00:20:34.602 the regions where these communities are based, 465 00:20:34.602 --> 00:20:37.403 they still receive hardly anything in terms of investment, 466 00:20:37.523 --> 00:20:37.763 right? 467 00:20:38.303 --> 00:20:38.923 And subsidy. 468 00:20:39.463 --> 00:20:42.484 And so that's also a disconnect in the climate adaptation finances. 469 00:20:42.564 --> 00:20:45.405 pretty much non-existent still where that would come from, 470 00:20:45.485 --> 00:20:49.266 but that hasn't been mobilized and I'm not holding my breath for that to happen. 471 00:20:49.286 --> 00:20:50.226 So there's just a, 472 00:20:51.707 --> 00:21:02.490 there's a lot of structural systemic issues plus the political economy that exists between the donor countries and the recipient countries that makes things very complicated. 473 00:21:02.510 --> 00:21:05.551 And this is not an easy solve for what we're trying to achieve, 474 00:21:06.351 --> 00:21:10.192 but there needs to be much more public discourse and dialogue. 475 00:21:10.612 --> 00:21:14.374 to at least identify the issues and try and figure out how do we fill those gaps. 476 00:21:15.015 --> 00:21:15.135 Yeah, 477 00:21:15.275 --> 00:21:16.215 that's really interesting. 478 00:21:16.275 --> 00:21:16.896 That's really, 479 00:21:17.536 --> 00:21:24.300 I like the development finance institutions look very risk averse from what I can hear. 480 00:21:24.941 --> 00:21:29.403 And you're quite vocal about this topic that there needs to be a proper conversation, 481 00:21:29.423 --> 00:21:29.863 a proper, 482 00:21:30.364 --> 00:21:33.345 let's say a more transparent multi-level governance. 483 00:21:33.606 --> 00:21:37.248 I hate the term multi-level governance because it's very jargony and 484 00:21:37.828 --> 00:21:38.709 Anytime I hear it, 485 00:21:38.729 --> 00:21:40.170 I want to say bingo. 486 00:21:40.310 --> 00:21:48.495 But I guess it's really about building the proper partnerships that can build the success of those initiatives. 487 00:21:48.995 --> 00:21:49.996 But in practice, 488 00:21:50.436 --> 00:21:51.877 what would be needed, 489 00:21:52.097 --> 00:21:52.897 in your view, 490 00:21:53.158 --> 00:21:54.779 to build these partnerships? 491 00:21:55.199 --> 00:22:02.603 Because the episode will be broadcast just a few days before the beginning of COP29 in Baku, 492 00:22:02.804 --> 00:22:03.444 Azerbaijan. 493 00:22:04.056 --> 00:22:07.599 And there will be a lot of discussion around climate finance and so on. 494 00:22:07.639 --> 00:22:09.100 But it's not only about climate, 495 00:22:09.120 --> 00:22:09.681 as you said. 496 00:22:10.141 --> 00:22:11.682 It's also about justice, 497 00:22:11.702 --> 00:22:15.485 about providing people with the ways to live, 498 00:22:15.566 --> 00:22:17.347 the means to live a more decent life, 499 00:22:17.707 --> 00:22:21.811 to make sure that the community least most affected by climate change, 500 00:22:21.851 --> 00:22:23.012 but least responsible for it, 501 00:22:23.372 --> 00:22:30.578 do actually become resilient in a way and live a better life despite the enormous challenges they face. 502 00:22:30.938 --> 00:22:31.839 I'm also thinking, 503 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:32.279 for instance, 504 00:22:32.540 --> 00:22:32.660 of... 505 00:22:33.340 --> 00:22:35.822 displaced population because of climate change and so on. 506 00:22:36.502 --> 00:22:37.943 So do you have any, 507 00:22:38.143 --> 00:22:38.444 let's say, 508 00:22:38.604 --> 00:22:43.527 positive experience you think you could draw from to think of, 509 00:22:43.847 --> 00:22:44.247 let's say, 510 00:22:44.728 --> 00:22:47.870 ways to overcome the challenges that we are facing now? 511 00:22:48.290 --> 00:22:50.172 Because I'm feeling a little bit depressed now. 512 00:22:50.252 --> 00:22:50.692 So can you, 513 00:22:50.812 --> 00:22:50.952 can, 514 00:22:51.532 --> 00:22:52.593 what do we need to do? 515 00:22:53.154 --> 00:22:53.954 So I think there needs, 516 00:22:54.314 --> 00:22:55.595 so I think at the end of the day, 517 00:22:56.736 --> 00:22:57.977 and I don't know if this is, 518 00:22:58.277 --> 00:23:00.398 it's not really a recommendation per se, 519 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:02.440 it's a call to action. 520 00:23:02.980 --> 00:23:07.823 I think that what the World Bank and African Development Bank have done demonstrates leadership. 521 00:23:08.283 --> 00:23:11.465 At least they've put this out there as an objective, 522 00:23:11.745 --> 00:23:14.787 and they're working to try and achieve that objective. 523 00:23:15.447 --> 00:23:18.329 But those are institutions that have been around since Bretton Woods, 524 00:23:18.529 --> 00:23:20.891 who are very entrenched in their ways. 525 00:23:21.151 --> 00:23:21.491 And 526 00:23:21.891 --> 00:23:27.114 I think reforming them is going to be very difficult to do in a short period of time. 527 00:23:27.995 --> 00:23:30.216 So I think more of those leaders... 528 00:23:30.576 --> 00:23:32.557 like Ajay Banga at the World Bank, 529 00:23:32.757 --> 00:23:33.257 are needed. 530 00:23:33.377 --> 00:23:35.278 And leadership in general is needed. 531 00:23:36.038 --> 00:23:45.142 Whether they're able to overcome the inertia of those institutions in a timeframe that's going to actually address the issue is a big question mark in my mind. 532 00:23:45.703 --> 00:23:45.923 But 533 00:23:46.583 --> 00:23:48.224 I think that type of leadership, 534 00:23:48.824 --> 00:23:50.445 which is basically saying, 535 00:23:51.125 --> 00:23:57.708 we're going to try and press down the institutional interests that have governed these bodies for decades. 536 00:23:58.412 --> 00:24:05.657 and address these problems from a people-centric perspective and really try to think about those people, 537 00:24:05.757 --> 00:24:06.538 first and foremost, 538 00:24:06.558 --> 00:24:08.499 whose lives we're trying to improve. 539 00:24:08.539 --> 00:24:09.680 That's a huge need. 540 00:24:10.020 --> 00:24:14.963 And I don't think we're seeing that type of leadership across all of these institutions. 541 00:24:14.983 --> 00:24:16.424 I think you're seeing it in small pockets, 542 00:24:16.464 --> 00:24:18.786 but then they also have to bring their institutions along with them. 543 00:24:18.806 --> 00:24:19.566 That's very difficult. 544 00:24:20.407 --> 00:24:21.047 Not to mention, 545 00:24:21.208 --> 00:24:24.450 I think the other thing is that in order to be successful, 546 00:24:24.990 --> 00:24:27.592 the need for collaboration and partnership is essential. 547 00:24:27.812 --> 00:24:28.032 Right. 548 00:24:28.172 --> 00:24:33.995 And one of the other things in that article that I talk about is that I don't see any of that in the true sense of partnership. 549 00:24:34.075 --> 00:24:34.275 Right. 550 00:24:34.295 --> 00:24:37.656 I think everybody is still very institutionally oriented. 551 00:24:38.436 --> 00:24:38.836 And 552 00:24:39.577 --> 00:24:44.959 I don't know how to create a more efficient deployment of resources, 553 00:24:44.999 --> 00:24:46.139 both human and capital. 554 00:24:46.239 --> 00:24:51.782 But it's going to require people saying and looking at what they do very honestly and saying, 555 00:24:51.842 --> 00:24:53.242 we don't we shouldn't be doing this. 556 00:24:53.282 --> 00:24:54.663 It's already being done by that person. 557 00:24:54.863 --> 00:24:57.144 Let's take all of our resources. 558 00:24:57.584 --> 00:25:00.945 and put them over there with this organization is already working on this, 559 00:25:01.005 --> 00:25:01.725 doing quite well, 560 00:25:02.386 --> 00:25:03.806 instead of starting some new program, 561 00:25:03.986 --> 00:25:04.727 some new fund. 562 00:25:05.147 --> 00:25:07.267 I think that there has to be some sort of consolidation, 563 00:25:07.387 --> 00:25:07.908 aggregation, 564 00:25:07.928 --> 00:25:14.710 and harmonization of resources in order to achieve these goals on the timeline that they're expected to be achieved on. 565 00:25:15.302 --> 00:25:18.723 So I think the positive is that as a private sector, 566 00:25:18.763 --> 00:25:20.704 we've made a huge impact over the past 10 years. 567 00:25:21.464 --> 00:25:30.026 We've made a difference in terms of taking this issue and elevating it up to the top of the global development agenda. 568 00:25:30.806 --> 00:25:38.708 Now we just need to figure out or leaders need to step up and drive the change that's required. 569 00:25:38.748 --> 00:25:38.909 Now, 570 00:25:39.249 --> 00:25:41.229 are they going to be able to do that in the timeframe required? 571 00:25:41.289 --> 00:25:41.629 I don't know. 572 00:25:41.829 --> 00:25:42.630 But ultimately, 573 00:25:42.950 --> 00:25:43.190 for me, 574 00:25:43.190 --> 00:25:43.950 it comes down to... 575 00:25:44.850 --> 00:25:48.411 The courage of that leadership to actually look in the mirror, 576 00:25:49.132 --> 00:25:50.232 both as government, 577 00:25:50.512 --> 00:25:52.333 as development finance institutions, 578 00:25:52.373 --> 00:25:53.273 as private sector, 579 00:25:53.494 --> 00:25:54.014 and say, 580 00:25:54.274 --> 00:25:54.574 okay, 581 00:25:55.094 --> 00:25:55.354 you know, 582 00:25:55.755 --> 00:25:58.095 these are the gaps that need to be filled. 583 00:25:58.736 --> 00:26:01.857 What can I do to reform my institution, 584 00:26:01.917 --> 00:26:03.078 to partner with others, 585 00:26:03.118 --> 00:26:05.899 to make that more possible than it is today? 586 00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:10.761 And I think we're still stuck in a little bit of a time warp on those issues. 587 00:26:11.041 --> 00:26:13.622 And in order for it to actually change. 588 00:26:14.286 --> 00:26:15.327 It's going to require leadership. 589 00:26:15.527 --> 00:26:18.508 That's going to be very difficult in today's geopolitical environment. 590 00:26:18.889 --> 00:26:20.710 But that's what I think ultimately it comes down to. 591 00:26:20.750 --> 00:26:22.371 I think there are a lot of good organizations, 592 00:26:22.711 --> 00:26:23.431 civil society, 593 00:26:24.252 --> 00:26:25.692 working from the bottom up as well. 594 00:26:26.293 --> 00:26:28.014 But that takes even longer, 595 00:26:28.394 --> 00:26:28.994 right? 596 00:26:29.094 --> 00:26:32.416 That type of change is probably more sustainable over time. 597 00:26:33.137 --> 00:26:35.558 But if we're talking about speed and scale, 598 00:26:36.238 --> 00:26:37.299 without that leadership, 599 00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:40.141 I think we're not going to get anywhere close to where we need to. 600 00:26:40.181 --> 00:26:42.362 That's really interesting. 601 00:26:42.522 --> 00:26:43.443 Interesting and inspiring. 602 00:26:43.483 --> 00:26:51.829 So is it something that you aim to do or develop or are already doing with the HESPARIS systems or with your end powerful? 603 00:26:52.870 --> 00:26:56.432 So I'm no longer involved day-to-day in Power for All. 604 00:26:56.472 --> 00:26:57.473 I support their work. 605 00:26:57.933 --> 00:26:58.374 But yes, 606 00:26:58.614 --> 00:27:00.275 those types of organizations, 607 00:27:00.455 --> 00:27:02.417 Sustainable Energy for All or SE for All, 608 00:27:02.497 --> 00:27:04.478 which is affiliated with the United Nations, 609 00:27:04.498 --> 00:27:06.860 I think the CEO of that organization, 610 00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:07.460 Dami Lola, 611 00:27:08.041 --> 00:27:09.482 OOB is also doing some. 612 00:27:09.958 --> 00:27:10.698 very important work. 613 00:27:10.718 --> 00:27:15.900 There are other organizations that are working on the advocacy side to try and mobilize movement. 614 00:27:16.460 --> 00:27:17.360 As a private sector, 615 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:18.320 Husk Power Systems, 616 00:27:18.380 --> 00:27:18.981 my company, 617 00:27:19.641 --> 00:27:20.681 we're a mini grid developer. 618 00:27:20.761 --> 00:27:27.083 We electrify rural communities with solar energy and provide a range of services that improve education, 619 00:27:27.183 --> 00:27:27.763 healthcare, 620 00:27:28.203 --> 00:27:29.243 economic activity, 621 00:27:29.724 --> 00:27:30.104 et cetera, 622 00:27:30.124 --> 00:27:30.484 et cetera, 623 00:27:30.504 --> 00:27:31.364 in those communities. 624 00:27:31.944 --> 00:27:33.945 We're actually at the moment working, 625 00:27:34.465 --> 00:27:38.326 we're trying to put together a group of leaders from the industry. 626 00:27:38.974 --> 00:27:56.882 to outline very clearly for the development finance community what it is we need in order to achieve that mission 300 target because what we need and what so i think what one of the issues is that a lot of these organizations that have put these pronouncements out there they 627 00:27:56.942 --> 00:28:07.026 have expected the private sector to meet them where they are what we're trying to say to them is you need to meet us where we are right there are huge challenges for us to scale at the speed that 628 00:28:07.406 --> 00:28:31.820 mission 300 will require to meet their targets but we're not seeing the type of support needed for the private sector to actually make that possible we're in the process of trying to really mobilize leading companies in our sector to outline what those things are and make sure that it's front and center for all of those institutions so that they understand full well for if we're going to help them meet their targets they need to really be 629 00:28:31.881 --> 00:28:33.862 thinking differently yeah it's not either 630 00:28:34.502 --> 00:28:40.626 Or it's really together that you need to define those kind of goals and objectives and make sure that something concrete happens. 631 00:28:40.666 --> 00:28:41.947 And right now, 632 00:28:42.007 --> 00:28:42.808 when you mention this, 633 00:28:43.048 --> 00:28:43.448 I think, 634 00:28:43.488 --> 00:28:44.089 for instance, 635 00:28:44.129 --> 00:28:46.591 of the grant application and so on, 636 00:28:46.671 --> 00:28:49.573 that can be extremely complicated and time consuming. 637 00:28:49.653 --> 00:28:50.513 And there are, 638 00:28:50.954 --> 00:28:51.334 of course, 639 00:28:51.374 --> 00:28:52.635 there is super needed, 640 00:28:52.795 --> 00:28:54.256 but they are not the only, 641 00:28:54.656 --> 00:28:54.997 let's say, 642 00:28:55.197 --> 00:28:58.299 challenge you face because you also face regulatory issues. 643 00:28:58.439 --> 00:29:01.941 You need to have some kind of streamlined processes and so on. 644 00:29:02.021 --> 00:29:02.142 So. 645 00:29:02.942 --> 00:29:08.524 I guess that it's also about getting a framework that makes those partnerships deliver. 646 00:29:09.524 --> 00:29:09.684 Yeah, 647 00:29:09.924 --> 00:29:15.386 I think there's a lot of bureaucracy in what we're talking about that slows everything down. 648 00:29:16.206 --> 00:29:17.506 So that's the speed element, 649 00:29:17.706 --> 00:29:17.906 right? 650 00:29:17.906 --> 00:29:19.207 How do you make that more efficient? 651 00:29:19.427 --> 00:29:22.187 But also there is a quantum element as well, 652 00:29:22.367 --> 00:29:22.568 right? 653 00:29:22.588 --> 00:29:24.488 In terms of capital that's required. 654 00:29:24.548 --> 00:29:26.669 We're talking about tens of billions of dollars here. 655 00:29:27.369 --> 00:29:29.810 A lot of that's going to need to be subsidy and grants. 656 00:29:30.230 --> 00:29:31.170 Where is that coming from? 657 00:29:31.370 --> 00:29:31.770 Right now, 658 00:29:31.850 --> 00:29:35.433 we're still stuck in pilot phase with a lot of these things. 659 00:29:35.453 --> 00:29:41.058 And how do we get from pilot to scale and really not only mobilize the development finance institutions, 660 00:29:41.058 --> 00:29:43.120 but also have what do they need to do? 661 00:29:43.140 --> 00:29:43.940 The climate funds, 662 00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:44.681 the pension funds, 663 00:29:44.701 --> 00:29:47.903 what do they need to do to crowd in without pension funds, 664 00:29:47.903 --> 00:29:50.586 but the climate funds that have more concessional capital, 665 00:29:50.606 --> 00:29:52.567 the DFIs that have more concessional capital, 666 00:29:52.587 --> 00:29:55.950 what do they need to do to crowd in the private equity firms, 667 00:29:56.010 --> 00:29:57.551 the sovereign wealth funds, 668 00:29:57.611 --> 00:29:59.052 the pension funds and others? 669 00:29:59.696 --> 00:30:02.798 who are on the sidelines of this issue still, 670 00:30:03.239 --> 00:30:10.084 because we're going to have to mobilize all the whole spectrum of capital to get to the end goal. 671 00:30:10.624 --> 00:30:11.324 And right now, 672 00:30:11.785 --> 00:30:14.447 we only have bits and pieces of that spectrum in place. 673 00:30:14.447 --> 00:30:21.512 So there's a lot of work that needs to be done as well to mobilize bigger sums of money to achieve these targets. 674 00:30:22.564 --> 00:30:22.744 Yeah, 675 00:30:22.744 --> 00:30:27.448 and that's really interesting because that's exactly one of the points of the discussion at 676 00:30:27.929 --> 00:30:29.470 COP29 in Baku, 677 00:30:29.690 --> 00:30:29.930 right? 678 00:30:30.210 --> 00:30:31.111 The finance part, 679 00:30:31.111 --> 00:30:31.812 the finance bits. 680 00:30:31.912 --> 00:30:36.255 Everybody at the end of the day is understanding that it's all about mobilizing money, 681 00:30:36.416 --> 00:30:44.722 whether it's for climate change or for equity and addressing those equity issues that are even more visible because of climate change and climate warming. 682 00:30:44.963 --> 00:30:46.684 We are reaching the end of the conversation, 683 00:30:46.824 --> 00:30:47.124 William, 684 00:30:47.345 --> 00:30:51.328 and I would really love to hear from you if you had. 685 00:30:51.812 --> 00:30:52.052 Maybe, 686 00:30:52.573 --> 00:30:52.893 let's say, 687 00:30:53.173 --> 00:31:02.522 one tip for somebody who would be listening to the podcast today and would want to change the world in a way or make sure that it delivers more equity. 688 00:31:03.182 --> 00:31:06.465 What would you really recommend with your years of experience? 689 00:31:06.605 --> 00:31:10.769 They are so interesting that you have experience from the telecom sector, 690 00:31:10.929 --> 00:31:12.090 from the marketing sector, 691 00:31:12.490 --> 00:31:13.792 from as a journalist as well. 692 00:31:13.832 --> 00:31:14.773 You worked as a journalist, 693 00:31:14.813 --> 00:31:15.033 right? 694 00:31:15.473 --> 00:31:18.376 So what could people actually do? 695 00:31:19.224 --> 00:31:23.405 I always end the podcast with a positive note because I think it's about empowering people. 696 00:31:23.445 --> 00:31:24.746 It's not only about inspiring, 697 00:31:24.746 --> 00:31:28.407 but also about empowering people to be the change they want to see in the world. 698 00:31:29.107 --> 00:31:29.267 Yeah. 699 00:31:29.767 --> 00:31:30.307 So personally, 700 00:31:30.507 --> 00:31:37.249 I'm always committed to trying to help the next generation figure out how they can play a role in all of this. 701 00:31:38.089 --> 00:31:43.131 And I'm always open to people reaching out to me on LinkedIn or however else. 702 00:31:43.331 --> 00:31:47.812 And I'll always try and find a time to talk to them and support what they're doing. 703 00:31:48.560 --> 00:31:52.964 because we need more people involved in these issues in all aspects. 704 00:31:53.084 --> 00:31:54.826 So that's number one, 705 00:31:54.906 --> 00:31:55.646 just find me. 706 00:31:56.387 --> 00:31:57.688 And if I can help you, 707 00:31:57.708 --> 00:31:58.028 I will. 708 00:31:58.729 --> 00:31:59.390 The other thing is, 709 00:31:59.470 --> 00:32:00.190 I think if you're, 710 00:32:00.511 --> 00:32:01.331 for me anyway, 711 00:32:01.512 --> 00:32:04.855 and this is more from my own personal experience, 712 00:32:04.935 --> 00:32:06.596 I was in China for 15 years. 713 00:32:07.317 --> 00:32:09.859 I watched that transformation of a country. 714 00:32:10.520 --> 00:32:13.963 I think one of the most exciting things for me today, 715 00:32:14.403 --> 00:32:15.284 Don King as well. 716 00:32:15.612 --> 00:32:18.514 but exciting is what's going to happen in Africa. 717 00:32:19.255 --> 00:32:20.816 And if I were 20, 718 00:32:20.956 --> 00:32:24.859 and I say this regularly to my friends when they ask me this question, 719 00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:26.361 if I were my 720 00:32:27.141 --> 00:32:30.184 20-year-old self moving to China back in the day, 721 00:32:31.485 --> 00:32:31.925 today, 722 00:32:32.566 --> 00:32:34.487 would I still go there or would I go somewhere else? 723 00:32:34.627 --> 00:32:34.968 Absolutely, 724 00:32:35.028 --> 00:32:35.728 I'd move to Africa. 725 00:32:35.948 --> 00:32:37.370 I would move to Africa in a heartbeat. 726 00:32:37.450 --> 00:32:38.731 If I were 20 years old today, 727 00:32:38.851 --> 00:32:45.196 I'd move to Africa because I think that's a place where you can not only do well. 728 00:32:46.008 --> 00:32:46.728 as a career, 729 00:32:47.109 --> 00:32:48.789 but you can do good in a major way. 730 00:32:49.410 --> 00:32:51.671 There's huge resource constraints there, 731 00:32:52.811 --> 00:32:55.072 huge need for additional capacity. 732 00:32:55.973 --> 00:32:57.113 I don't care where you are, 733 00:32:57.173 --> 00:32:57.813 where you're from, 734 00:32:58.414 --> 00:33:04.196 there's impact that you could potentially achieve working with people from those countries in Africa, 735 00:33:04.196 --> 00:33:04.676 of course, 736 00:33:04.857 --> 00:33:06.457 but I would move there in a heartbeat. 737 00:33:06.477 --> 00:33:08.358 And that's for foreigners, 738 00:33:08.398 --> 00:33:08.638 right? 739 00:33:08.798 --> 00:33:12.400 But if you're an African working on issues in Africa. 740 00:33:12.924 --> 00:33:16.765 When you need access to international capital markets or whatever, 741 00:33:17.065 --> 00:33:20.346 that's where people should come to me and I can try and help them. 742 00:33:20.926 --> 00:33:27.268 But this is going to take so much to try and turn Africa into what I think it can and should be, 743 00:33:27.388 --> 00:33:30.989 which is like a really shiny example of what the future looks like. 744 00:33:31.389 --> 00:33:32.770 That's a very young continent. 745 00:33:33.050 --> 00:33:36.251 There's so much potential there and there's so much need there. 746 00:33:36.411 --> 00:33:37.131 So I don't know. 747 00:33:37.131 --> 00:33:38.751 That would be my two cents, 748 00:33:38.812 --> 00:33:39.052 right? 749 00:33:39.272 --> 00:33:40.232 Go somewhere in Africa. 750 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.021 Figure out who's doing what on the ground there, 751 00:33:43.181 --> 00:33:44.301 see how you can contribute, 752 00:33:44.802 --> 00:33:45.682 and you'll make an impact. 753 00:33:45.902 --> 00:33:50.244 And hopefully learn some things and do well in the process. 754 00:33:50.904 --> 00:33:51.484 Yeah, 755 00:33:51.484 --> 00:33:54.386 I've been working with African organizations, 756 00:33:54.486 --> 00:33:55.546 youth organizations, 757 00:33:55.606 --> 00:33:56.226 working in FASO. 758 00:33:56.587 --> 00:33:57.827 Shout out to my friend, 759 00:33:57.987 --> 00:34:01.088 Jean-Zacteur de l'énergie and Dimitri Titanga. 760 00:34:01.789 --> 00:34:09.272 I am genuinely impressed by their work ethic and about how much they want things to improve for their countries. 761 00:34:09.984 --> 00:34:15.187 And they often tell me how difficult it is for them to access funding because of the, 762 00:34:15.567 --> 00:34:15.847 let's say, 763 00:34:15.867 --> 00:34:17.468 political situation they face. 764 00:34:17.568 --> 00:34:19.529 They are absolutely not responsible for that, 765 00:34:19.850 --> 00:34:26.173 but they want really to make a difference and deal with those kind of challenges as well. 766 00:34:26.573 --> 00:34:27.634 Just one last thought. 767 00:34:27.634 --> 00:34:30.015 So I have a friend who's from Somalia, 768 00:34:30.555 --> 00:34:32.416 and he has a company that's similar to ours, 769 00:34:32.637 --> 00:34:34.458 building renewable energy projects in Somalia, 770 00:34:34.498 --> 00:34:36.239 which is a tough place to do business, 771 00:34:36.319 --> 00:34:36.539 right? 772 00:34:36.779 --> 00:34:38.740 You can imagine there's a lot of... 773 00:34:38.980 --> 00:34:39.880 instability there. 774 00:34:40.761 --> 00:34:42.101 This guy is super smart. 775 00:34:42.241 --> 00:34:44.442 He's built a company on a shoestring. 776 00:34:45.003 --> 00:34:50.885 He's totally bootstrapped it and he's turned it into a company that's growing and is quite successful. 777 00:34:51.606 --> 00:34:53.927 He needs so much help to do, 778 00:34:54.367 --> 00:34:58.989 to get from where he is today to the next phase of where that company could potentially be. 779 00:34:59.429 --> 00:34:59.889 Unfortunately, 780 00:34:59.989 --> 00:35:01.870 we know because of our investors and other things. 781 00:35:02.318 --> 00:35:04.020 We're not in a position to do that with him, 782 00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:05.781 but he's one of these people. 783 00:35:05.821 --> 00:35:10.185 And there's so many of them in Africa who are onto something, 784 00:35:10.646 --> 00:35:16.551 doing something really impactful already and need that additional support to get to the next stage. 785 00:35:17.192 --> 00:35:22.396 And that's what I mean when I say find these people because they're out there and they're doing amazing things already and they need help. 786 00:35:23.277 --> 00:35:23.637 Exactly. 787 00:35:23.738 --> 00:35:25.419 So it's all about connecting the dots. 788 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:26.180 And that's what, 789 00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:27.000 at the end of the day, 790 00:35:27.181 --> 00:35:28.041 this podcast is. 791 00:35:28.722 --> 00:35:29.002 Please, 792 00:35:29.042 --> 00:35:29.663 listeners, 793 00:35:29.783 --> 00:35:33.085 contact William if you need some tips or some ideas. 794 00:35:33.145 --> 00:35:36.448 I will put the article you wrote in the show notes because it's very informative. 795 00:35:36.748 --> 00:35:37.168 And yes, 796 00:35:37.328 --> 00:35:39.810 I guess it's also about at our own level, 797 00:35:40.070 --> 00:35:47.796 really try to challenge the status quo as much as we can and really get into knowing each other because that's what makes a difference, 798 00:35:47.816 --> 00:35:48.016 right? 799 00:35:48.096 --> 00:35:51.298 It's also a lot of human to human connection that makes a difference. 800 00:35:51.758 --> 00:35:52.559 Thank you so much, 801 00:35:52.919 --> 00:35:53.239 William, 802 00:35:53.299 --> 00:35:55.681 for this really inspiring conversation. 803 00:35:56.121 --> 00:35:56.682 Thank you so much. 804 00:35:59.206 --> 00:36:02.187 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. 805 00:36:02.427 --> 00:36:10.309 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward thinking mouths out there. 806 00:36:10.949 --> 00:36:11.729 I'm Maureen Connelly, 807 00:36:11.949 --> 00:36:13.610 your host from Policy Consultancy, 808 00:36:13.670 --> 00:36:14.750 Next Energy Consumer, 809 00:36:15.130 --> 00:36:18.591 and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, 810 00:36:18.971 --> 00:36:21.092 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. 811 00:36:21.792 --> 00:36:23.032 Since 2021, 812 00:36:23.212 --> 00:36:24.693 we've shared countless stories, 813 00:36:24.853 --> 00:36:25.333 insights, 814 00:36:25.353 --> 00:36:28.494 and ideas over more than 14 episodes. 815 00:36:28.894 --> 00:36:32.036 And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. 816 00:36:32.756 --> 00:36:37.039 If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, 817 00:36:37.419 --> 00:36:39.020 why not support us on Patreon? 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