WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.101 --> 00:00:03.644 Welcome to part 3 of my interview with 2 00:00:04.003 --> 00:00:07.126 Ariane Lotti from Tenuta San Carlo in Tuscany. 3 00:00:07.665 --> 00:00:08.986 In this final part, 4 00:00:09.486 --> 00:00:12.173 we talk about farm policy and about the CAP, 5 00:00:12.251 --> 00:00:13.876 the Common Agriculture Policy. 6 00:00:15.095 --> 00:00:19.595 Before moving to Tuscany and becoming a farmer herself 11 years ago, 7 00:00:19.892 --> 00:00:22.548 Ariane used to work in farm policy back in the US. 8 00:00:22.923 --> 00:00:26.814 So this gives her a unique perspective as both an expert in foreign policy, 9 00:00:26.892 --> 00:00:29.970 but also someone who has more than 10 years experience. 10 00:00:30.300 --> 00:00:32.482 working as a farmer in Europe. 11 00:00:33.062 --> 00:00:35.945 This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital. 12 00:00:36.566 --> 00:00:40.171 I am your host Raphael and this is the Deep Seed Podcast. 13 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:57.671 You told us at the start of this conversation that you used to work in farming policy back in the US and now you've been farming for over 10 years here. 14 00:00:58.092 --> 00:01:00.453 kind of both sides now of both experiences. 15 00:01:02.035 --> 00:01:03.559 Policy is a really important, 16 00:01:03.637 --> 00:01:05.520 really interesting topic, 17 00:01:05.981 --> 00:01:10.567 so I was wondering if we could get a little bit deeper into that now with you. 18 00:01:11.121 --> 00:01:24.575 I completely agree that policy is a very important topic and in the EU the policy that structures the farming sector is called the Common Agriculture Policy or the EU CAP and 19 00:01:25.032 --> 00:01:34.264 It's got a lovely history because it's one of the first unifying policies for continental Europe in the Second World War II, 20 00:01:34.303 --> 00:01:35.959 in the post-World War II rebuilding. 21 00:01:35.982 --> 00:01:39.045 So it's got a nice history in terms of unification, 22 00:01:39.545 --> 00:01:49.475 but it has over time really directed agriculture and farming systems towards a very conventional farming model, 23 00:01:49.771 --> 00:01:51.412 an industrial farming model. 24 00:01:52.681 --> 00:01:53.441 More recently, 25 00:01:53.822 --> 00:01:58.267 it has focused on the multifunctionality of agriculture, 26 00:01:58.306 --> 00:01:58.748 that is, 27 00:01:58.865 --> 00:02:02.951 the many ways that a farm interacts with its landscape. 28 00:02:03.029 --> 00:02:06.232 So a farm doesn't just produce food, 29 00:02:06.474 --> 00:02:06.794 right? 30 00:02:07.193 --> 00:02:08.701 It stewards a landscape, 31 00:02:08.716 --> 00:02:14.982 it provides recreational opportunities for people who don't farm, 32 00:02:15.388 --> 00:02:16.638 and it's part of a community. 33 00:02:16.826 --> 00:02:18.826 So the EU cap has... 34 00:02:19.976 --> 00:02:25.422 While there are some policies within it that really support kind of more industrial conventional parts, 35 00:02:25.922 --> 00:02:33.313 it has taken this much wider view of what a farm is and can be and the importance of farms on the landscape. 36 00:02:33.672 --> 00:02:34.727 So it's not all bad, 37 00:02:35.649 --> 00:02:37.320 right? 38 00:02:37.914 --> 00:02:40.211 And in the recent years, 39 00:02:41.195 --> 00:02:46.477 it's really tried to take the part of the EU farm-to-fork strategy. 40 00:02:47.136 --> 00:02:58.130 related to the EU's Green Deal and apply and give certain objectives around more environmentally friendly farming to the agriculture sector, 41 00:02:58.684 --> 00:03:04.974 which were definitely met with some protest by conventional farming associations. 42 00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:16.224 And so you right now have this a little bit of a hybrid where they're trying to include more directly climate goals and environmental goals and 43 00:03:16.876 --> 00:03:18.278 rural development goals, 44 00:03:18.738 --> 00:03:22.300 but they're also trying to ensure 45 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:23.925 EU supply, 46 00:03:24.163 --> 00:03:24.863 food supply, 47 00:03:25.245 --> 00:03:25.503 right, 48 00:03:26.003 --> 00:03:30.066 especially after the beginning of the war in Ukraine. 49 00:03:30.808 --> 00:03:33.245 So there are a lot of competing objectives, 50 00:03:33.636 --> 00:03:33.917 right, 51 00:03:34.917 --> 00:03:37.777 in the policy landscape and just this week. 52 00:03:38.644 --> 00:03:45.813 And the EU was debating how much to remove from the agriculture budget to put into the Re-arm Europe plan. 53 00:03:46.051 --> 00:03:49.774 So it's a complex beast, 54 00:03:49.915 --> 00:03:50.899 but it's very important. 55 00:03:50.954 --> 00:03:56.649 And so the way I like to think about it is how does the cap intersect with 56 00:03:57.087 --> 00:03:59.118 Tinuta San Carlo and what we do here? 57 00:04:00.227 --> 00:04:02.524 And it intersects in a lot of different ways. 58 00:04:03.149 --> 00:04:07.587 And there are ways to improve how it intersects with the farm. 59 00:04:08.452 --> 00:04:12.016 So we do get production subsidies from the EU. 60 00:04:12.498 --> 00:04:13.799 So I produce rice, 61 00:04:14.037 --> 00:04:14.838 I produce wheat, 62 00:04:15.100 --> 00:04:16.041 I produce clover, 63 00:04:16.342 --> 00:04:17.060 I produce, 64 00:04:17.162 --> 00:04:17.443 you know, 65 00:04:18.100 --> 00:04:19.584 some flowers I produce. 66 00:04:19.982 --> 00:04:24.045 Name your crop and because I'm producing on that piece of land 67 00:04:24.646 --> 00:04:26.334 I'll get a direct payment, 68 00:04:26.662 --> 00:04:26.850 really, 69 00:04:27.037 --> 00:04:27.287 you know, 70 00:04:27.365 --> 00:04:29.646 tied to kind of environmental practices as well, 71 00:04:29.818 --> 00:04:33.396 but since I'm certified organic that checks that box. 72 00:04:35.365 --> 00:04:36.287 But in the past 73 00:04:38.170 --> 00:04:39.170 In the past reforms, 74 00:04:39.231 --> 00:04:46.137 they made that a lot of the subsidy questions much more prescriptive and much more complex to adhere to. 75 00:04:46.637 --> 00:04:55.121 So they added significant levels of bureaucracy and paperwork to be able to apply to and access those funds. 76 00:04:55.184 --> 00:04:56.293 And so on the one hand, 77 00:04:57.871 --> 00:04:59.418 if there are fewer funds available, 78 00:04:59.434 --> 00:05:00.012 it does make sense. 79 00:05:00.020 --> 00:05:16.438 sense to make sure that they're going to the right types of practices but on the other hand you've almost been too prescriptive right um i'd like to see in some future a more outcomes-based policy 80 00:05:16.844 --> 00:05:28.484 right where you're saying less to farmers do this this and this or else you won't get support but instead like we're going towards that objective and how you choose to do that 81 00:05:29.052 --> 00:05:30.113 right within a certain, 82 00:05:30.253 --> 00:05:30.494 you know, 83 00:05:30.513 --> 00:05:33.775 within certain limits is up to you because you know your land. 84 00:05:34.517 --> 00:05:34.638 So 85 00:05:35.900 --> 00:05:37.142 I get direct subsidies, 86 00:05:37.361 --> 00:05:40.283 but the more interesting part and the more, 87 00:05:41.322 --> 00:05:41.783 in my mind, 88 00:05:41.784 --> 00:05:42.267 the more, 89 00:05:43.548 --> 00:05:50.158 the part that aligns more with some of the goals around regenerative food systems more broadly is that the EU, 90 00:05:51.361 --> 00:05:53.392 through its Rural Development Funding Program, 91 00:05:54.060 --> 00:05:58.265 supports both transition to organic agriculture, 92 00:05:58.363 --> 00:06:00.386 which I think is an important step, 93 00:06:00.445 --> 00:06:02.605 although not necessary in all instances, 94 00:06:02.707 --> 00:06:07.191 towards on path to regenerative agriculture management, 95 00:06:07.511 --> 00:06:22.011 but also supports the breeding of breeds and plant varieties that are considered to be going extinct from an agricultural basis. 96 00:06:22.280 --> 00:06:24.283 So it's rather than programs that do some good. 97 00:06:24.883 --> 00:06:28.185 And then there are these supply chain level programs, 98 00:06:28.908 --> 00:06:34.810 one of which was really important to me in the early years of organic production. 99 00:06:35.513 --> 00:06:36.295 So essentially, 100 00:06:36.490 --> 00:06:38.631 in these supply chain projects, 101 00:06:39.756 --> 00:06:44.178 the EU says to a group of farmers, 102 00:06:44.287 --> 00:06:45.428 processors, 103 00:06:45.568 --> 00:06:46.209 retailers, 104 00:06:46.271 --> 00:06:47.146 and a university, 105 00:06:47.990 --> 00:06:49.303 if you want some support, 106 00:06:49.676 --> 00:06:51.198 for your supply chain development, 107 00:06:51.238 --> 00:06:51.877 we'll give it to you, 108 00:06:51.918 --> 00:06:56.662 but you have to put together a supply chain agreement that lasts about five years, 109 00:06:57.123 --> 00:06:57.362 right? 110 00:06:57.545 --> 00:06:58.924 And at the time, 111 00:06:59.065 --> 00:07:00.244 in 2017, 112 00:07:00.369 --> 00:07:04.409 I participated in one of these agreements around organic agriculture, 113 00:07:04.534 --> 00:07:04.729 right, 114 00:07:04.768 --> 00:07:05.369 in Tuscany. 115 00:07:06.268 --> 00:07:06.627 And 116 00:07:07.080 --> 00:07:09.440 I was part of the producers who, 117 00:07:10.034 --> 00:07:10.284 you know, 118 00:07:10.643 --> 00:07:18.987 were agreeing to participate in a supply chain around organic agriculture development in Tuscany. 119 00:07:19.968 --> 00:07:23.052 And the big benefit of that for me was a market one, 120 00:07:23.430 --> 00:07:23.692 right? 121 00:07:23.811 --> 00:07:27.954 Because in order for the supply chain application to pass, 122 00:07:28.954 --> 00:07:40.852 there had to be retailers and distributors who participated and agreed to purchase the production from farms that adhered to the supply chain, 123 00:07:41.024 --> 00:07:41.290 right? 124 00:07:41.352 --> 00:07:42.727 And as I said earlier, 125 00:07:44.352 --> 00:07:49.134 I have distribution partners and supply chain partners. 126 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:50.701 that are, 127 00:07:50.881 --> 00:07:51.121 you know, 128 00:07:51.681 --> 00:07:53.203 organic supermarkets or, 129 00:07:53.523 --> 00:07:53.785 you know, 130 00:07:54.566 --> 00:07:57.347 I don't sell all of my product under my brand, 131 00:07:57.488 --> 00:07:57.687 right, 132 00:07:57.789 --> 00:07:59.547 for the amount of product that I produce. 133 00:07:59.812 --> 00:08:01.890 So those relationships were really important. 134 00:08:02.109 --> 00:08:05.773 And what the EU then does through the Rural Development Funding, 135 00:08:05.812 --> 00:08:08.617 it says we'll cover 40% 136 00:08:10.695 --> 00:08:17.351 of the cost of the investments that you make related to the building of that supply chain. 137 00:08:17.820 --> 00:08:18.992 And so I'm a farmer. 138 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:20.121 At that time, 139 00:08:20.241 --> 00:08:22.262 my application included a new tractor, 140 00:08:22.944 --> 00:08:23.965 a grain dryer, 141 00:08:24.844 --> 00:08:27.868 steel wheels that I need to do rice production, 142 00:08:28.368 --> 00:08:31.829 and precision technology to make sure that we were, 143 00:08:32.110 --> 00:08:32.352 you know, 144 00:08:32.353 --> 00:08:34.454 a GPS satellite system on the tractor. 145 00:08:34.993 --> 00:08:35.751 And so the EU, 146 00:08:36.891 --> 00:08:38.157 the application passed. 147 00:08:38.532 --> 00:08:41.079 The EU provided 40% 148 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:43.219 of the funding through the Rural Development Program. 149 00:08:43.329 --> 00:08:45.438 and I still to this day even if 150 00:08:45.912 --> 00:08:46.853 The supply chain, 151 00:08:46.893 --> 00:08:49.254 the five years of the supply chain contract ended. 152 00:08:49.856 --> 00:08:57.039 I still supply some of the clients that I made through that supply chain agreement. 153 00:08:57.164 --> 00:09:10.696 And so it was such an important part of our my organic transition because I had essentially a set market for a period of time when I was making investments in the farm. 154 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:14.555 So after those five years the investment has been... 155 00:09:15.012 --> 00:09:15.352 made, 156 00:09:15.353 --> 00:09:16.814 the partnership has been created, 157 00:09:16.815 --> 00:09:18.516 the supply chain has been running for five years, 158 00:09:18.517 --> 00:09:20.998 so it has a good reason to continue, 159 00:09:21.158 --> 00:09:21.357 right? 160 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:21.998 Yeah, 161 00:09:22.357 --> 00:09:22.619 yes, 162 00:09:22.779 --> 00:09:23.279 exactly. 163 00:09:23.482 --> 00:09:26.123 And after those five years, 164 00:09:27.107 --> 00:09:30.248 in Italian we say it was a messa in sicurezza, 165 00:09:30.389 --> 00:09:30.584 right? 166 00:09:32.162 --> 00:09:33.334 Those were the years when 167 00:09:33.896 --> 00:09:40.881 I kind of rebuilt the foundation of this new chapter in the farm's story, 168 00:09:41.475 --> 00:09:41.740 right? 169 00:09:41.803 --> 00:09:42.693 And at that point, 170 00:09:43.092 --> 00:09:44.894 having made the investments, 171 00:09:44.974 --> 00:09:45.375 having, 172 00:09:45.554 --> 00:09:45.775 you know, 173 00:09:45.935 --> 00:09:47.437 built the market relationships, 174 00:09:47.855 --> 00:09:53.320 I was then able to take some of the next steps into more, 175 00:09:54.164 --> 00:09:54.422 let's say, 176 00:09:54.484 --> 00:09:58.625 more interesting techniques also. 177 00:09:58.890 --> 00:10:00.008 Because at that point, 178 00:10:00.288 --> 00:10:01.610 Even though you're not, 179 00:10:01.830 --> 00:10:02.110 you know, 180 00:10:02.391 --> 00:10:05.993 you haven't fully recovered a conventional system in five years, 181 00:10:06.813 --> 00:10:07.755 if you've been doing, 182 00:10:07.837 --> 00:10:08.841 like I was doing, 183 00:10:09.317 --> 00:10:10.255 crop rotation, 184 00:10:10.380 --> 00:10:11.403 cover cropping, 185 00:10:11.778 --> 00:10:13.684 really careful kind of nutrients, 186 00:10:13.981 --> 00:10:14.325 you know, 187 00:10:14.723 --> 00:10:15.723 management, 188 00:10:17.903 --> 00:10:21.497 you start to see the benefits in your system as well, 189 00:10:22.028 --> 00:10:22.294 right? 190 00:10:22.372 --> 00:10:22.716 And so... 191 00:10:24.732 --> 00:10:34.924 I have heard from other farmers who have made transitions that it does take about 10 years to really transition a system. 192 00:10:34.963 --> 00:10:42.650 I mean that transition never ends and it never stops and it's always a journey but that core, 193 00:10:43.150 --> 00:10:52.900 that initial big step takes about 10 years but that that five-year mark for us was for me was was important because 194 00:10:53.312 --> 00:10:54.513 there was that project, 195 00:10:55.034 --> 00:10:55.274 you know, 196 00:10:55.314 --> 00:10:58.939 that helped to support those investments and create those market relationships. 197 00:10:59.278 --> 00:10:59.517 Okay, 198 00:10:59.939 --> 00:11:06.728 and you were able to invest more in that transition then because you were financially a bit more stable, 199 00:11:07.204 --> 00:11:07.564 safe, 200 00:11:07.565 --> 00:11:08.290 a bit more margin, 201 00:11:08.345 --> 00:11:09.071 and that allowed you, 202 00:11:09.072 --> 00:11:11.087 that gave you the space to be a bit more ambitious? 203 00:11:11.337 --> 00:11:11.603 Yes, 204 00:11:11.931 --> 00:11:12.509 yeah, 205 00:11:12.790 --> 00:11:13.649 the margins aren't, 206 00:11:13.774 --> 00:11:16.212 they're very razor-thin margins, 207 00:11:16.321 --> 00:11:16.556 right? 208 00:11:17.181 --> 00:11:19.103 But at that point, 209 00:11:19.468 --> 00:11:19.728 Yes, 210 00:11:19.828 --> 00:11:28.508 I was starting to build the profitability that allowed me to make some more investments in equipment and infrastructure, 211 00:11:28.570 --> 00:11:29.047 which I need, 212 00:11:29.109 --> 00:11:39.719 but also to experiment with a couple of practices that were less economically viable. 213 00:11:40.390 --> 00:11:40.687 Right. 214 00:11:41.390 --> 00:11:41.656 Okay. 215 00:11:41.937 --> 00:11:46.140 I love that you're highlighting the positives of the EU policies at the moment and how they actually helped you. 216 00:11:46.297 --> 00:11:46.406 No, 217 00:11:46.453 --> 00:11:46.969 but I love it. 218 00:11:47.784 --> 00:11:50.085 It's important to really understand the full picture. 219 00:11:51.828 --> 00:11:54.749 But if we went on the other side of the equation, 220 00:11:54.851 --> 00:11:58.433 what would you say now these policies are lacking? 221 00:11:59.058 --> 00:12:00.097 How could they improve, 222 00:12:00.839 --> 00:12:04.675 especially ahead of the new cap budget that's going to be decided very soon? 223 00:12:05.082 --> 00:12:05.269 Yeah, 224 00:12:05.503 --> 00:12:07.082 this is such an important question. 225 00:12:07.347 --> 00:12:07.488 One, 226 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:09.972 because obviously the resources are going to be fewer, 227 00:12:10.410 --> 00:12:12.113 there's going to be less money available. 228 00:12:12.769 --> 00:12:15.113 And because on certain objectives, 229 00:12:15.238 --> 00:12:16.597 the cap has failed. 230 00:12:17.064 --> 00:12:17.324 Right? 231 00:12:17.805 --> 00:12:17.925 We, 232 00:12:18.465 --> 00:12:21.350 the farming population grows older, 233 00:12:21.608 --> 00:12:24.213 there isn't the renewal of farmers, 234 00:12:26.354 --> 00:12:27.393 there's always, 235 00:12:28.197 --> 00:12:28.432 you know, 236 00:12:28.557 --> 00:12:34.658 farmers that leave the land that don't pass it on either to their kids or to younger farmers. 237 00:12:34.674 --> 00:12:44.236 There's a question of land accessibility and availability of land for those new farmers and there are big questions around markets, 238 00:12:44.768 --> 00:12:45.111 right? 239 00:12:47.856 --> 00:12:50.318 and then climate objectives, 240 00:12:50.556 --> 00:12:51.036 obviously. 241 00:12:51.536 --> 00:12:53.958 So in my mind, 242 00:12:55.095 --> 00:13:02.322 we're at a point generally where systems that we've relied on, 243 00:13:02.572 --> 00:13:03.025 not just, 244 00:13:03.134 --> 00:13:04.884 I'm saying we like the royal we, 245 00:13:05.337 --> 00:13:05.634 right? 246 00:13:06.056 --> 00:13:08.681 Like that society has relied on, 247 00:13:09.494 --> 00:13:11.181 have been crumbling for a while, 248 00:13:11.806 --> 00:13:14.009 and it feels like we're at a breaking point, 249 00:13:14.337 --> 00:13:14.587 you know, 250 00:13:14.588 --> 00:13:15.822 in this post-COVID era. 251 00:13:16.616 --> 00:13:18.738 where institutions are failing, 252 00:13:18.878 --> 00:13:20.240 economies are failing, 253 00:13:21.523 --> 00:13:22.222 things are just, 254 00:13:22.421 --> 00:13:28.210 the climate's changing faster than was expected, 255 00:13:28.328 --> 00:13:28.992 essentially. 256 00:13:29.851 --> 00:13:30.968 And part of the, 257 00:13:32.835 --> 00:13:33.835 for agriculture, 258 00:13:34.335 --> 00:13:35.710 part of the future, 259 00:13:35.898 --> 00:13:36.320 I think, 260 00:13:36.429 --> 00:13:42.242 is really around that outcomes-oriented farming. 261 00:13:43.116 --> 00:13:59.052 but outcomes in the sense of that are measurable outcomes that that farmers can track on their own and i do think this is one of those areas where technology and ai can help facilitate a 262 00:13:59.067 --> 00:14:12.302 transition right right now when i go do my subsidy application or when i apply for any sort of funding the amount of paperwork is takes a separate consultant to work on right 263 00:14:12.984 --> 00:14:16.787 And everything is so prescriptive. 264 00:14:18.248 --> 00:14:21.194 But if we have less money available, 265 00:14:21.733 --> 00:14:27.858 essentially to support the delivery mechanisms of this money, 266 00:14:28.498 --> 00:14:34.061 which is like institutions and governments, 267 00:14:34.248 --> 00:14:36.108 if there's less money around for everybody, 268 00:14:36.983 --> 00:14:40.530 let's focus that money on what we want our outcomes to be. 269 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:43.701 I know that's easy to say, 270 00:14:44.581 --> 00:14:44.902 right? 271 00:14:45.624 --> 00:14:48.226 And much harder to implement. 272 00:14:49.085 --> 00:14:51.066 I've been working, 273 00:14:51.331 --> 00:14:59.472 I worked last summer with the Climate Farmers Network in Europe to help test a farm health assessment and monitoring tool. 274 00:15:00.028 --> 00:15:08.653 I know there are a lot of startups that are working on technologies that are helping farmers to measure everything from, 275 00:15:08.880 --> 00:15:09.114 you know, 276 00:15:09.395 --> 00:15:12.942 soil health quality to water use to, 277 00:15:13.778 --> 00:15:14.020 you know, 278 00:15:14.145 --> 00:15:14.801 biodiversity, 279 00:15:14.880 --> 00:15:15.505 maybe less. 280 00:15:16.044 --> 00:15:24.778 But being able to integrate the uses of these technologies into then an application that the government receives. 281 00:15:25.106 --> 00:15:26.372 right let's say that 282 00:15:27.075 --> 00:15:28.216 I don't know right 283 00:15:28.872 --> 00:15:28.997 I 284 00:15:30.100 --> 00:15:33.140 In order to get my subsidy payment, 285 00:15:33.582 --> 00:15:36.902 I have to show that I'm improving organic matter in the soil, 286 00:15:37.281 --> 00:15:37.523 right? 287 00:15:37.562 --> 00:15:38.339 And I have to show that. 288 00:15:38.363 --> 00:15:40.503 It's hard to show it like on a yearly basis, 289 00:15:40.964 --> 00:15:43.941 but let's do the minimum every three years, 290 00:15:44.363 --> 00:15:44.566 right? 291 00:15:44.582 --> 00:15:48.230 And if there are soil tests that I can easily do, 292 00:15:48.949 --> 00:15:49.230 right, 293 00:15:49.558 --> 00:15:51.730 without all of the expense of, 294 00:15:52.371 --> 00:15:52.605 you know, 295 00:15:52.871 --> 00:15:56.261 shipping it to a lab for two weeks to have the thing, 296 00:15:56.839 --> 00:15:57.168 you know, 297 00:15:57.511 --> 00:15:59.324 and I can just give them the results. 298 00:15:59.820 --> 00:16:08.467 And those results get processed essentially by either humans or a machine to say whether or not 299 00:16:08.912 --> 00:16:11.529 I've reached targets and objectives or not. 300 00:16:12.092 --> 00:16:16.459 That becomes a lot easier than what we're doing now, 301 00:16:16.943 --> 00:16:17.162 right? 302 00:16:17.178 --> 00:16:18.318 Which is the 303 00:16:18.803 --> 00:16:20.318 EU policies people, 304 00:16:20.740 --> 00:16:21.834 the CAP saying, 305 00:16:22.349 --> 00:16:24.490 this is how we want you to farm. 306 00:16:26.316 --> 00:16:29.298 And these are the rotations that we think are going to work for you. 307 00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:35.142 But what I do here in southern Tuscany is different from what they do in northern Italy, 308 00:16:35.361 --> 00:16:41.127 is different from what they do in southern Italy because we're in different like climate zones and have different soils. 309 00:16:41.150 --> 00:16:44.955 And what I do here is different from what's done like 30 kilometers away. 310 00:16:45.689 --> 00:16:49.845 So instead if we're given objectives, 311 00:16:50.205 --> 00:16:51.283 measurable objectives, 312 00:16:51.314 --> 00:16:52.236 then it becomes easier. 313 00:16:52.705 --> 00:16:55.330 Another thing like I think a dirty secret 314 00:16:55.848 --> 00:17:04.114 around the CAP is that even if it's obviously supported food production and a farm economy, 315 00:17:05.114 --> 00:17:08.036 it has driven people out of farming, 316 00:17:08.521 --> 00:17:10.403 like the labor force out of farming, 317 00:17:10.560 --> 00:17:12.224 because it has subsidized, 318 00:17:12.505 --> 00:17:15.208 as I mentioned early in one of those rural development projects, 319 00:17:15.614 --> 00:17:17.505 the purchase primarily of new machinery, 320 00:17:18.083 --> 00:17:18.271 right, 321 00:17:18.333 --> 00:17:19.130 and new equipment, 322 00:17:19.271 --> 00:17:20.567 which absolutely 323 00:17:21.608 --> 00:17:25.491 is useful and I as a farmer need and want, 324 00:17:25.812 --> 00:17:26.054 right? 325 00:17:27.015 --> 00:17:37.609 But when you're looking at rebuilding essentially the capacity of a group of people to effectively manage land, 326 00:17:39.421 --> 00:17:43.031 I'm one of those people who believe that that can't be done by robots, 327 00:17:43.890 --> 00:17:44.171 right? 328 00:17:44.765 --> 00:17:47.671 I think that comes from being on the land. 329 00:17:49.076 --> 00:17:58.308 And feeling it and experiencing it and having that experience of knowing what the soils in this part of the land do and what the soils over there do, 330 00:17:58.448 --> 00:17:59.104 what works there, 331 00:17:59.143 --> 00:17:59.706 what doesn't, 332 00:18:00.089 --> 00:18:01.831 what weed problems do I have here, 333 00:18:01.948 --> 00:18:02.933 how when it rains, 334 00:18:02.972 --> 00:18:05.347 what happens over there and what happens on this piece. 335 00:18:06.034 --> 00:18:11.362 All of that knowledge comes from experience on the physical land of a person. 336 00:18:11.925 --> 00:18:17.081 And if we remove people from the land and incentivize that movement, 337 00:18:17.452 --> 00:18:24.599 then I think we've taken a step in the wrong direction in terms of reconnecting people with the land, 338 00:18:24.798 --> 00:18:26.278 which I think is so important. 339 00:18:26.622 --> 00:18:26.739 Yeah. 340 00:18:29.606 --> 00:18:31.825 I have more questions about the outcome-based side of things, 341 00:18:31.826 --> 00:18:32.724 but just to stay on this for now... 342 00:18:32.725 --> 00:18:33.606 I don't have many answers. 343 00:18:34.106 --> 00:18:34.825 Yeah, 344 00:18:36.091 --> 00:18:36.935 to stay on this for now, 345 00:18:37.216 --> 00:18:43.153 what would you suggest changing to make sure that we're not driving more people off the land and we're incentivizing... 346 00:18:43.812 --> 00:18:49.300 Spending those budgets in hiring people and paying people better and not only in buying machinery and technology. 347 00:18:50.038 --> 00:18:53.425 I think for a farmer, 348 00:18:54.425 --> 00:19:01.284 one of the most important things is being able to sell what you produce at a right price. 349 00:19:02.237 --> 00:19:05.831 And if markets are aligned with values, 350 00:19:06.815 --> 00:19:10.331 then I think everything will follow from that. 351 00:19:10.737 --> 00:19:11.815 because I also, 352 00:19:12.003 --> 00:19:12.925 as a farm business, 353 00:19:14.264 --> 00:19:14.544 You know, 354 00:19:15.325 --> 00:19:20.349 if I knew that I had markets and I work hard to find markets that pay me a decent price, 355 00:19:20.431 --> 00:19:23.313 but it's not on the entirety of what I produce, 356 00:19:23.391 --> 00:19:23.556 right? 357 00:19:23.595 --> 00:19:25.696 There are things that I still sell, 358 00:19:25.813 --> 00:19:26.157 I think, 359 00:19:26.259 --> 00:19:28.298 under a fair market price. 360 00:19:30.118 --> 00:19:33.970 Then I would be able to have the type of income that could make me, 361 00:19:33.971 --> 00:19:35.016 you know, 362 00:19:35.188 --> 00:19:37.360 that would support running a healthy business, 363 00:19:37.813 --> 00:19:38.001 right? 364 00:19:38.048 --> 00:19:43.126 And I think once you look at how to support healthy business management, 365 00:19:43.796 --> 00:19:45.780 then the people will follow, 366 00:19:46.381 --> 00:19:49.887 both in terms of whether someone wants to start a farming, 367 00:19:49.888 --> 00:19:51.008 you know, 368 00:19:52.434 --> 00:19:53.551 operation on their own, 369 00:19:53.770 --> 00:19:56.199 or whether they want to work with and for a farm, 370 00:19:56.715 --> 00:19:56.981 right? 371 00:19:57.496 --> 00:20:00.004 And I do think you do have to couple that with... 372 00:20:00.028 --> 00:20:02.249 with land access. 373 00:20:03.469 --> 00:20:07.208 Because one thing is a situation like mine where I inherited the land, 374 00:20:07.508 --> 00:20:09.051 there was no mortgage on that. 375 00:20:09.348 --> 00:20:10.809 I do think the government, 376 00:20:11.309 --> 00:20:14.231 if they want more people in the farming sector, 377 00:20:14.294 --> 00:20:19.731 does have to somehow intervene in land access and land transition, 378 00:20:20.153 --> 00:20:20.434 right? 379 00:20:21.231 --> 00:20:22.309 Many of my neighbors, 380 00:20:22.809 --> 00:20:27.075 they are essentially the older generation, 381 00:20:27.231 --> 00:20:27.419 right? 382 00:20:27.450 --> 00:20:28.778 They're above 65. 383 00:20:29.452 --> 00:20:32.194 Their children don't want to manage that land. 384 00:20:32.454 --> 00:20:33.837 What will happen to that land? 385 00:20:34.556 --> 00:20:35.638 Who will buy that land? 386 00:20:36.520 --> 00:20:37.181 What will, 387 00:20:38.825 --> 00:20:48.466 will young farmers or new farmers who don't have access to land be able to afford that land at the prices that currently that land is sold for? 388 00:20:48.513 --> 00:20:48.966 But also, 389 00:20:49.560 --> 00:20:51.981 will they be able to make a business plan from that land? 390 00:20:52.075 --> 00:20:52.747 You know, 391 00:20:52.856 --> 00:20:52.981 so 392 00:20:54.778 --> 00:20:58.122 I do think if you invest 393 00:20:58.408 --> 00:21:00.509 or if you make, 394 00:21:02.530 --> 00:21:02.808 you know, 395 00:21:02.890 --> 00:21:04.530 this is always such a tricky subject, 396 00:21:05.050 --> 00:21:14.429 because if you work to pay farmers a fair price and make farming a livelihood that can be, 397 00:21:14.913 --> 00:21:18.069 that provide the type of income that people would like to see, 398 00:21:19.585 --> 00:21:22.929 then you do need to couple that with access to land. 399 00:21:24.069 --> 00:21:24.335 But 400 00:21:24.696 --> 00:21:28.500 There is the question then of the price that consumers receive on the end, 401 00:21:28.842 --> 00:21:29.060 right? 402 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:35.849 Which is always that question that's hard to answer without any sort of government intervention, 403 00:21:36.084 --> 00:21:36.326 right? 404 00:21:36.428 --> 00:21:38.514 And that's where the government, 405 00:21:39.834 --> 00:21:42.076 it could be helpful for the government to intervene. 406 00:21:42.077 --> 00:21:46.717 And they currently do that on the production side with farm subsidies in the U.S. 407 00:21:46.904 --> 00:21:48.076 up until a few weeks ago. 408 00:21:48.872 --> 00:21:52.316 And the bill that was passed under the Trump administration, 409 00:21:52.336 --> 00:21:58.459 they were doing that also through the food stamp program and the supplemental nutrition assistance program, 410 00:21:58.521 --> 00:22:03.748 where people making under a certain income level would receive subsidies from the government to buy food. 411 00:22:04.810 --> 00:22:05.388 In Europe, 412 00:22:05.591 --> 00:22:15.232 the social safety net and the welfare state provide support in other ways to families that don't have adequate income, 413 00:22:15.904 --> 00:22:17.263 so they're not really comparable. 414 00:22:17.419 --> 00:22:17.607 but 415 00:22:17.996 --> 00:22:32.494 There is a question about the government's role and how the government or the EU should help to support farmer livelihoods and make food affordable, 416 00:22:32.994 --> 00:22:33.189 right? 417 00:22:33.213 --> 00:22:35.541 And that's where that intervention is needed. 418 00:22:35.994 --> 00:22:37.041 It makes sense. 419 00:22:38.041 --> 00:22:42.307 But you said that we need to basically align market and values, 420 00:22:42.338 --> 00:22:42.525 right? 421 00:22:42.744 --> 00:22:44.557 That's the core of everything you just explained here. 422 00:22:47.513 --> 00:22:48.795 I'm going to be the devil's advocate, 423 00:22:48.796 --> 00:22:53.801 but I will say that markets have not been known very often to align with values, 424 00:22:53.820 --> 00:22:55.961 but more with profits no matter what. 425 00:22:56.023 --> 00:22:56.679 Exactly. 426 00:22:56.883 --> 00:22:57.000 Yeah, 427 00:22:57.062 --> 00:22:57.445 for sure. 428 00:22:57.601 --> 00:22:57.781 Yeah, 429 00:22:58.226 --> 00:22:59.344 but it does make sense. 430 00:22:59.547 --> 00:23:00.648 I would love to see more of that, 431 00:23:00.703 --> 00:23:06.023 more of these support mechanisms for people who can't afford good healthy food, 432 00:23:06.414 --> 00:23:10.148 and making sure that that money is spent not on fast food and sodas, 433 00:23:10.211 --> 00:23:15.539 but to spend on healthy food that has been produced in a healthy way that has supported regeneration of land. 434 00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:17.582 It feels like something that is doable, 435 00:23:18.283 --> 00:23:18.543 right? 436 00:23:18.802 --> 00:23:19.384 But yeah, 437 00:23:19.385 --> 00:23:21.244 I'm not sure how we get there. 438 00:23:21.267 --> 00:23:21.447 Yeah, 439 00:23:21.448 --> 00:23:29.556 up until recently there were successful pilot programs in the US that worked on connecting consumers, 440 00:23:29.650 --> 00:23:31.119 like lower-income consumers, 441 00:23:31.213 --> 00:23:32.869 with healthy food acts, 442 00:23:32.978 --> 00:23:33.213 you know, 443 00:23:33.353 --> 00:23:34.181 healthy food. 444 00:23:35.697 --> 00:23:37.744 There were some successful pilot projects, 445 00:23:37.916 --> 00:23:38.103 right? 446 00:23:38.181 --> 00:23:40.463 Everybody wins in that situation. 447 00:23:41.572 --> 00:23:41.884 And 448 00:23:42.994 --> 00:23:44.291 I do think that as... 449 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:49.145 European food systems lose a little bit of that 450 00:23:49.645 --> 00:23:50.965 European-ness to them, 451 00:23:51.504 --> 00:23:52.247 especially in Italy. 452 00:23:53.567 --> 00:23:56.090 The Italian consumer knows about seasonality, 453 00:23:56.551 --> 00:23:59.575 knows how to access fresh fruits and vegetables, 454 00:23:59.614 --> 00:24:01.989 knows how to access better food, 455 00:24:06.504 --> 00:24:12.207 that there is a very kind of clear effort. 456 00:24:13.088 --> 00:24:14.330 At a government level, 457 00:24:14.509 --> 00:24:14.710 right, 458 00:24:14.711 --> 00:24:15.590 because I agree with you, 459 00:24:15.992 --> 00:24:17.093 values and markets, 460 00:24:17.453 --> 00:24:17.672 you know, 461 00:24:17.715 --> 00:24:21.715 if we're talking about the types of values that are the subject of this podcast, 462 00:24:22.418 --> 00:24:29.207 you're not going to get that alignment easily or outside of a certain sphere of people, 463 00:24:30.472 --> 00:24:40.301 that the government can facilitate that connection between food that's produced well and that has high nutritional value. 464 00:24:40.904 --> 00:24:43.868 with consumers that might not be able to afford that food. 465 00:24:43.869 --> 00:24:43.987 Okay, 466 00:24:44.368 --> 00:24:44.948 yeah. 467 00:24:46.850 --> 00:24:50.858 Just a very quick post to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast, 468 00:24:51.217 --> 00:24:51.811 Soil Capital. 469 00:24:52.858 --> 00:24:59.998 Soil Capital is a company that accelerates the transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve their crops. 470 00:25:00.192 --> 00:25:02.434 Things like soil health and biodiversity. 471 00:25:03.256 --> 00:25:04.178 They're an amazing company, 472 00:25:04.256 --> 00:25:05.819 and if you'd like to learn more about them, 473 00:25:05.838 --> 00:25:07.959 I will leave a link in the description of this episode. 474 00:25:09.123 --> 00:25:10.865 We're getting super technical here, 475 00:25:10.881 --> 00:25:11.444 but I love it. 476 00:25:11.584 --> 00:25:13.389 I really love it because I'm learning a lot. 477 00:25:13.405 --> 00:25:14.530 And I know that if I'm learning, 478 00:25:14.764 --> 00:25:17.030 people listening are likely to be learning as well. 479 00:25:17.623 --> 00:25:22.842 So I just wanted to rewind a little bit back to the outcome-based idea here. 480 00:25:23.108 --> 00:25:23.920 And 481 00:25:24.514 --> 00:25:25.420 I wanted to ask you, 482 00:25:26.811 --> 00:25:27.420 in your opinion, 483 00:25:27.576 --> 00:25:27.873 obviously, 484 00:25:28.076 --> 00:25:28.873 I know it's this... 485 00:25:29.544 --> 00:25:29.884 personal, 486 00:25:30.745 --> 00:25:32.887 what kind of outcomes should we be looking at? 487 00:25:33.387 --> 00:25:36.270 Because you mentioned outcomes that should be easily measurable by the farmer, 488 00:25:36.793 --> 00:25:39.910 they should be accessible to all farms without spending a lot of money, 489 00:25:40.113 --> 00:25:43.715 they're easily verifiable and efficient, 490 00:25:43.738 --> 00:25:43.918 I mean, 491 00:25:43.996 --> 00:25:45.754 and useful metrics to look at. 492 00:25:45.895 --> 00:25:47.238 What would you recommend? 493 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:56.488 So this is where I think there's a lot of interesting kind of projects to try out and I'm actually following in the local news 494 00:25:57.164 --> 00:26:01.350 A project that's happening not too far away from where you're staying in Pitigliano, 495 00:26:01.510 --> 00:26:08.936 which is this hill town about an hour away that has faced questions of over-tourism, 496 00:26:09.639 --> 00:26:09.920 right? 497 00:26:09.998 --> 00:26:10.975 And I know this is different, 498 00:26:10.976 --> 00:26:11.920 but I'll get there, 499 00:26:12.318 --> 00:26:12.522 right? 500 00:26:12.576 --> 00:26:15.225 And instead of saying we're going to, 501 00:26:16.037 --> 00:26:16.287 you know, 502 00:26:17.178 --> 00:26:21.553 welcome all the tourism that we can and build our economy off of a tourism, 503 00:26:22.084 --> 00:26:22.787 what the town, 504 00:26:22.834 --> 00:26:25.006 what the municipality decided to do 505 00:26:25.672 --> 00:26:40.266 was to start a conversation with the residents about what they wanted their town to look like and what kind of business opportunities they felt comfortable with around tourism and what they wanted tourism to look like, 506 00:26:40.727 --> 00:26:40.969 right? 507 00:26:41.188 --> 00:26:53.501 And that whole experiment on a very local policy level has had me thinking a lot about how policy can support communities. 508 00:26:54.080 --> 00:26:54.280 Right, 509 00:26:54.340 --> 00:26:58.785 and to be able to support communities in what a community wants, 510 00:26:59.445 --> 00:27:04.168 policy has to be rooted in a local environment. 511 00:27:04.628 --> 00:27:08.316 And so when we think about outcomes-oriented policy, 512 00:27:08.714 --> 00:27:11.996 I like saying that phrase because I think outcomes, 513 00:27:12.418 --> 00:27:20.183 thinking about how something can be outcomes-oriented changes the way we think about policy, 514 00:27:21.152 --> 00:27:21.402 but 515 00:27:22.540 --> 00:27:26.804 I do think that successful policy needs to be rooted at the community level. 516 00:27:27.804 --> 00:27:39.804 And so what might work for this area here to measure in terms of farming outcomes might be different than what makes sense for a community, 517 00:27:39.819 --> 00:27:41.663 a farming community in Northern Europe. 518 00:27:41.726 --> 00:27:41.960 I mean, 519 00:27:42.616 --> 00:27:45.476 obviously things like soil health, 520 00:27:45.601 --> 00:27:45.835 you know, 521 00:27:45.882 --> 00:27:51.210 parameters of soil health and soil quality are very important indicators of 522 00:27:51.916 --> 00:27:52.196 you know, 523 00:27:53.018 --> 00:27:54.338 the health of a system, 524 00:27:54.859 --> 00:27:55.660 as is water, 525 00:27:56.399 --> 00:28:00.625 all the indicators around water retention and water quality and water availability. 526 00:28:01.125 --> 00:28:05.391 But in an area like this where for a few months out of the year it hardly rains, 527 00:28:05.789 --> 00:28:16.961 we might want to really specify a lot more around water conservation and water management than perhaps an area that has more regular rainfall, 528 00:28:17.149 --> 00:28:17.399 right? 529 00:28:17.555 --> 00:28:19.430 Or if an area has, 530 00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:20.289 you know 531 00:28:21.580 --> 00:28:38.500 salt incursion or has desertification there it depends on what the critical natural resources of that area are the final thing i will say on that is um i do think there has the farmers in the eu and 532 00:28:38.501 --> 00:28:50.703 in the us just for an extent have kind of become used to the eu paying them and just doing what the cap wants them to do. 533 00:28:51.332 --> 00:28:51.592 right? 534 00:28:51.773 --> 00:28:52.613 Not all farmers, 535 00:28:52.673 --> 00:28:53.353 not everywhere, 536 00:28:53.955 --> 00:28:55.216 but there's this general sense, 537 00:28:55.318 --> 00:28:55.658 okay, 538 00:28:56.095 --> 00:28:56.357 you know, 539 00:28:57.638 --> 00:29:00.638 I essentially work for the EU in food production, 540 00:29:00.724 --> 00:29:00.880 right? 541 00:29:00.881 --> 00:29:05.427 And the government is an important partner in my farm business. 542 00:29:06.263 --> 00:29:08.248 But I do think there is, 543 00:29:08.982 --> 00:29:13.294 it's an important dialogue and important conversation to have. 544 00:29:13.357 --> 00:29:19.763 It'd be interesting to see if it happens around not just doing... 545 00:29:20.304 --> 00:29:23.408 things because the CAP thinks they should be done, 546 00:29:23.466 --> 00:29:26.732 but doing things because you as a farmer, 547 00:29:26.970 --> 00:29:27.193 you know, 548 00:29:28.013 --> 00:29:29.294 manage your piece of land, 549 00:29:29.536 --> 00:29:30.677 have a business plan, 550 00:29:31.115 --> 00:29:32.099 develop markets, 551 00:29:32.177 --> 00:29:35.857 have other goals besides what the EU is directly telling you to do. 552 00:29:37.146 --> 00:29:44.443 So I guess what you're saying it really depends on the local context and it should be the local community that decides what those outcomes should be for them, 553 00:29:44.474 --> 00:29:46.036 but then how do you implement that? 554 00:29:46.932 --> 00:29:47.633 in practice? 555 00:29:47.813 --> 00:29:48.173 I don't, 556 00:29:48.353 --> 00:29:50.115 I'm still at the theoretical level there. 557 00:29:50.355 --> 00:29:50.476 No, 558 00:29:50.576 --> 00:29:51.777 I do think there needs to be, 559 00:29:51.917 --> 00:29:52.777 um, 560 00:29:53.437 --> 00:29:59.164 I do think on one side there needs to be kind of that community-led or that can... 561 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:02.562 mechanisms for communities to participate. 562 00:30:03.004 --> 00:30:06.508 But then if we are going to get funding from the EU for agriculture, 563 00:30:06.527 --> 00:30:11.430 we do have to make it fair across all communities throughout Europe. 564 00:30:11.453 --> 00:30:14.891 And so that's where I do think there can be large agreement, 565 00:30:14.953 --> 00:30:18.719 large broad scale agreement on some of the environmental indicators I mentioned, 566 00:30:19.219 --> 00:30:23.547 some of the human indicators right around job creation, 567 00:30:23.781 --> 00:30:25.547 farmer health and mental health, 568 00:30:25.641 --> 00:30:27.094 which I think is so important. 569 00:30:28.236 --> 00:30:29.117 and rural community, 570 00:30:29.137 --> 00:30:30.699 you know, 571 00:30:31.158 --> 00:30:33.082 the health of rural communities as well. 572 00:30:34.363 --> 00:30:37.707 And then questions around market indicators, 573 00:30:37.926 --> 00:30:38.184 right? 574 00:30:38.285 --> 00:30:38.809 I don't know, 575 00:30:38.810 --> 00:30:40.449 you know, 576 00:30:40.567 --> 00:30:49.129 there are big questions right now around how tariffs and wars impact agricultural markets, 577 00:30:49.613 --> 00:30:51.645 but indicators around, 578 00:30:53.020 --> 00:30:53.254 you know, 579 00:30:54.145 --> 00:30:57.770 market development and market access for farms. 580 00:30:59.344 --> 00:31:02.928 So you mentioned that there are many different sides to the business here. 581 00:31:02.969 --> 00:31:03.508 Unfortunately, 582 00:31:03.527 --> 00:31:07.715 we don't have time today to explore in detail each one of these topics, 583 00:31:08.410 --> 00:31:12.394 but maybe you could tell us a little bit more about the bigger picture of what you're doing here. 584 00:31:12.715 --> 00:31:13.277 Absolutely. 585 00:31:14.137 --> 00:31:15.762 The mission of the farm, 586 00:31:16.527 --> 00:31:18.090 since I've been managing it, 587 00:31:18.449 --> 00:31:25.996 has been to apply sustainable and now regenerative practices at scale, 588 00:31:26.183 --> 00:31:27.808 to be a model for what 589 00:31:28.504 --> 00:31:34.108 a regenerative farm can look like at a certain size, 590 00:31:34.471 --> 00:31:34.608 right, 591 00:31:34.609 --> 00:31:35.772 in terms of land area. 592 00:31:36.331 --> 00:31:37.936 And part of that involves, 593 00:31:37.991 --> 00:31:38.975 as we've talked about, 594 00:31:39.053 --> 00:31:39.178 the, 595 00:31:39.913 --> 00:31:40.155 you know, 596 00:31:40.592 --> 00:31:41.717 the crop production. 597 00:31:42.077 --> 00:31:44.460 There's livestock on the farm as well. 598 00:31:44.553 --> 00:31:48.491 We have a herd of heritage breed cattle called Maremane, 599 00:31:49.663 --> 00:31:53.944 and they graze primarily our pine forests and our, 600 00:31:55.350 --> 00:31:56.772 and the lands closer to the sea. 601 00:31:57.876 --> 00:31:59.478 And then there's, 602 00:32:00.379 --> 00:32:02.639 I have conservation land on my land as well, 603 00:32:03.002 --> 00:32:05.162 that's highly protected at the EU level, 604 00:32:05.283 --> 00:32:08.545 which is not necessarily an active management, 605 00:32:08.608 --> 00:32:12.233 but an important part of the farm's story and identity. 606 00:32:13.014 --> 00:32:17.553 And then there's a big part of also kind of 607 00:32:18.548 --> 00:32:23.194 education and tours and having people learn about what we're doing, 608 00:32:23.655 --> 00:32:23.873 right? 609 00:32:23.932 --> 00:32:26.135 And so that's where the agriturismo comes in. 610 00:32:26.217 --> 00:32:28.319 People can come and stay and have a vacation, 611 00:32:28.420 --> 00:32:34.084 but I also host courses and tours and workshops that focus on, 612 00:32:34.459 --> 00:32:34.709 you know, 613 00:32:34.881 --> 00:32:40.287 themes of regenerative agriculture and what we're doing here at the appropriate age level, 614 00:32:40.397 --> 00:32:40.631 right? 615 00:32:40.662 --> 00:32:45.834 We have students or kids who come who are in elementary school or even at, 616 00:32:45.912 --> 00:32:46.162 you know, 617 00:32:46.178 --> 00:32:47.069 in preschool. 618 00:32:48.333 --> 00:32:56.159 And we have university students who come and my hope is that as practices and systems, 619 00:32:56.401 --> 00:32:56.643 you know, 620 00:32:56.878 --> 00:32:57.862 as we continue, 621 00:32:57.925 --> 00:32:59.221 as I continue to farm, 622 00:32:59.323 --> 00:33:03.065 essentially that I can share what we do with more people. 623 00:33:03.604 --> 00:33:09.253 And that's why part of the business development is also around now actual products, 624 00:33:09.393 --> 00:33:09.581 right, 625 00:33:09.596 --> 00:33:13.003 that people can buy in terms of our rice, 626 00:33:13.456 --> 00:33:16.721 but also the next step is a farm store. 627 00:33:17.316 --> 00:33:21.761 so that you don't necessarily have to spend the night here or participate in the agriturismo. 628 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:31.468 You can stop by the farm store on your way to the beach or if you're going through the area and taste the products that we grow. 629 00:33:33.859 --> 00:33:35.218 In terms of farm economics, 630 00:33:35.546 --> 00:33:36.874 how has it been for you then, 631 00:33:37.077 --> 00:33:39.515 this transition to organic and regenerative agriculture? 632 00:33:39.516 --> 00:33:40.234 It's a big topic, 633 00:33:40.280 --> 00:33:42.015 obviously it's important. 634 00:33:42.564 --> 00:33:47.329 to be able to prove that there's a working business model there to convince more farmers to do it. 635 00:33:47.330 --> 00:33:48.290 So how has it been for you? 636 00:33:48.469 --> 00:33:48.610 Yeah, 637 00:33:49.129 --> 00:33:49.532 it's been, 638 00:33:49.751 --> 00:33:52.430 I'd say overall in the past 10 years, 639 00:33:52.532 --> 00:33:55.836 apart from some years that were, 640 00:33:56.258 --> 00:33:56.501 you know, 641 00:33:56.579 --> 00:33:57.016 for example, 642 00:33:57.017 --> 00:34:01.336 we had drought in 2017 and it was massive crap failure all around. 643 00:34:03.368 --> 00:34:05.274 It's been overall profitable, 644 00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:05.946 right? 645 00:34:06.149 --> 00:34:10.899 And I think it's important to keep in mind that the business model 646 00:34:12.720 --> 00:34:16.583 relies on diverse income streams, 647 00:34:16.966 --> 00:34:17.267 right? 648 00:34:18.063 --> 00:34:20.286 And so there's the, 649 00:34:20.767 --> 00:34:25.852 I sell the primary materials or the raw kind of materials, 650 00:34:25.892 --> 00:34:26.056 right? 651 00:34:26.071 --> 00:34:27.095 I sell rough rice, 652 00:34:27.134 --> 00:34:27.837 I sell wheat, 653 00:34:27.892 --> 00:34:29.634 I sell a variety of different crops. 654 00:34:30.040 --> 00:34:34.040 I also sell branded products and have my own kind of distribution networks. 655 00:34:34.556 --> 00:34:39.149 But I'm also working now on selling meat. 656 00:34:39.900 --> 00:34:41.302 instead of calves, 657 00:34:41.462 --> 00:34:43.963 which was what the cows originally were, 658 00:34:44.623 --> 00:34:45.806 what I was originally selling. 659 00:34:45.927 --> 00:34:55.217 And then all the aspect around the agriturismo and the tourism income is not the primary source of income for the farm and not the secondary source either, 660 00:34:55.334 --> 00:34:59.927 but an important part of the diversification of our income. 661 00:35:00.300 --> 00:35:07.068 that does help to sustain us in years where we do have problems with crop production. 662 00:35:07.607 --> 00:35:10.212 I'm going to ask you one last question that I always ask. 663 00:35:10.213 --> 00:35:10.314 Yeah. 664 00:35:10.315 --> 00:35:14.993 It's like if there's one key message you would like every listener of the podcast to come away with. 665 00:35:15.157 --> 00:35:15.376 Yes. 666 00:35:16.118 --> 00:35:21.376 The one key message I think is important for people to come away with is one of hope, 667 00:35:22.142 --> 00:35:22.407 right? 668 00:35:22.626 --> 00:35:29.001 And one where we know that we can scale up regenerative techniques. 669 00:35:29.336 --> 00:35:31.318 and make change in our food system. 670 00:35:31.919 --> 00:35:36.962 I think that's my key message because a lot of people, 671 00:35:37.286 --> 00:35:39.849 I was surrounded by people who told me I would fail and 672 00:35:40.427 --> 00:35:41.630 I wouldn't be able to do it. 673 00:35:42.388 --> 00:35:45.294 And by taking one step at a time, 674 00:35:45.810 --> 00:35:47.013 change happens. 675 00:35:47.716 --> 00:35:47.841 And 676 00:35:48.950 --> 00:35:52.935 I want to believe and I want listeners to believe in a better future. 677 00:35:53.403 --> 00:35:54.778 That was fantastic. 678 00:35:55.172 --> 00:36:13.947 interview and farm visit I learned so much with you today so I'm so pleased that I you know I got to to do this with you I really hope and think that the listeners of the deep sea podcast will be grateful as well so thank you so much for that oh it's been wonderful having you here and I've loved talking with you and showing you around the farm thank 679 00:36:13.978 --> 00:36:20.072 you so this is it this is the end of our episode with Ariane Lotti from Tenuta San Carlo 680 00:36:20.635 --> 00:36:22.541 I really hope you enjoyed this episode. 681 00:36:23.148 --> 00:36:23.769 If you did, 682 00:36:23.889 --> 00:36:26.631 and if you enjoy listening to the Deep Seed podcast in general, 683 00:36:26.912 --> 00:36:34.216 please support me and support my work by simply following the Deep Seed right here on your favorite streaming platform. 684 00:36:34.240 --> 00:36:39.302 You just click on the Deep Seed page and then click on the subscribe or follow button. 685 00:36:39.849 --> 00:36:44.834 Thank you so much in advance and see you very soon for more regenerative stories on the Deep Seed podcast. 686 00:36:45.271 --> 00:36:45.615 Take care. 687 00:36:51.257 --> 00:36:52.406 Bye.