WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.168 --> 00:00:04.690 Hello everyone and welcome back to The Deep Seed. 2 00:00:05.411 --> 00:00:10.139 In today's Rewind episode I have selected a passage from my conversation with 3 00:00:10.655 --> 00:00:13.217 Swiss regenerative farmer Peter Thrölich. 4 00:00:14.436 --> 00:00:17.881 Peter challenges a common problem in regenerative agriculture. 5 00:00:18.608 --> 00:00:25.389 We spend too much time arguing about which practices and which tools are regenerative or not. 6 00:00:26.030 --> 00:00:29.452 But what actually matters is not so much how you farm, 7 00:00:29.639 --> 00:00:31.577 which tools and practices you use, 8 00:00:31.624 --> 00:00:31.764 but... 9 00:00:32.308 --> 00:00:33.169 What are the results? 10 00:00:33.309 --> 00:00:36.672 What are the outcomes generated by farming? 11 00:00:37.876 --> 00:00:39.977 Before we listen to Peter talk about this, 12 00:00:40.075 --> 00:00:46.883 here are a few reasons why I think that this mindset shift and the way we view farming and food production matters. 13 00:00:47.860 --> 00:00:48.407 First of all, 14 00:00:48.891 --> 00:00:49.563 flexibility. 15 00:00:50.188 --> 00:00:54.204 Every farm is different and operates in a completely different context. 16 00:00:55.047 --> 00:00:55.594 And therefore, 17 00:00:55.797 --> 00:00:59.016 the methods and tools used to achieve certain outcomes 18 00:00:59.408 --> 00:01:02.751 for a particular farm might not apply to another farm. 19 00:01:02.892 --> 00:01:13.759 So allowing farmers to choose the methods and tools that are most adapted to their context to achieve the best possible outcomes seems like a smarter idea, 20 00:01:13.822 --> 00:01:14.041 right? 21 00:01:15.087 --> 00:01:23.259 Another huge benefit I'm seeing here is that it allows us to move past the ideological debates about farming, 22 00:01:23.572 --> 00:01:27.853 about what tools and practices are better or worse, 23 00:01:28.197 --> 00:01:28.822 about what? 24 00:01:29.316 --> 00:01:29.757 label, 25 00:01:29.937 --> 00:01:31.878 whether that's organic, 26 00:01:32.038 --> 00:01:32.839 regenerative, 27 00:01:32.979 --> 00:01:33.940 agroecological, 28 00:01:34.042 --> 00:01:34.901 conventional, 29 00:01:35.022 --> 00:01:35.764 biodynamic, 30 00:01:35.803 --> 00:01:36.362 and so on. 31 00:01:37.147 --> 00:01:39.343 We don't really care about this anymore. 32 00:01:39.749 --> 00:01:40.007 You know, 33 00:01:40.225 --> 00:01:42.913 anyone's free to choose what they prefer, 34 00:01:43.053 --> 00:01:44.233 what they like the most, 35 00:01:44.272 --> 00:01:45.678 or what works the best for them. 36 00:01:46.397 --> 00:01:49.163 Every farm is being analyzed, 37 00:01:49.257 --> 00:01:49.757 measured, 38 00:01:49.803 --> 00:01:50.335 and judged, 39 00:01:50.553 --> 00:01:53.960 not based on an ideology of what farming should be, 40 00:01:54.100 --> 00:01:58.460 but based on a universal set of outcomes that everyone 41 00:01:59.164 --> 00:01:59.665 can agree on. 42 00:02:00.325 --> 00:02:06.992 The third and final huge advantage I'm seeing here is the credibility it adds to the whole regenerative movement. 43 00:02:07.813 --> 00:02:12.399 Because right now there's not one clear definition of what regenerative agriculture is. 44 00:02:12.977 --> 00:02:16.641 And if we define regenerative agriculture by its tools, 45 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:17.703 by its practices, 46 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:19.547 like reduced tillage, 47 00:02:19.625 --> 00:02:22.625 reduced chemicals and increased soil cover, 48 00:02:22.641 --> 00:02:23.250 for example, 49 00:02:23.828 --> 00:02:24.016 well, 50 00:02:24.344 --> 00:02:28.094 a big ag food company could potentially take 51 00:02:28.260 --> 00:02:38.301 every single one of these boxes and therefore call themselves regenerative despite still operating within a very much linear extractive conventional system. 52 00:02:39.043 --> 00:02:44.566 But if what we decide to look at is a set of outcomes that are easily measurable, 53 00:02:45.051 --> 00:02:45.738 verifiable, 54 00:02:45.801 --> 00:02:46.551 transparent, 55 00:02:47.129 --> 00:02:48.504 then there's no way to cheat. 56 00:02:48.691 --> 00:02:50.785 Either you are regenerating or you're not. 57 00:02:51.519 --> 00:02:51.707 Okay, 58 00:02:51.738 --> 00:02:53.051 so this was a very long intro, 59 00:02:53.082 --> 00:02:53.988 I'm sorry about that, 60 00:02:54.504 --> 00:02:57.113 to sort of clarify the reasons why. 61 00:02:57.604 --> 00:03:02.627 I personally think that looking at outcomes is the way forward for regenerative agriculture. 62 00:03:03.006 --> 00:03:04.826 But we'll hear it now from 63 00:03:05.185 --> 00:03:06.045 Peter himself, 64 00:03:06.068 --> 00:03:08.568 who will explain this much better than I did, 65 00:03:09.006 --> 00:03:11.545 but who will also go into much more depth, 66 00:03:11.685 --> 00:03:14.873 more detail about which outcomes should we look at, 67 00:03:15.435 --> 00:03:16.451 how do we measure them, 68 00:03:17.263 --> 00:03:17.888 and why. 69 00:03:19.091 --> 00:03:22.748 This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital. 70 00:03:23.326 --> 00:03:23.966 I am your host, 71 00:03:24.170 --> 00:03:24.654 Raphael, 72 00:03:25.263 --> 00:03:26.748 and this is the Deep Seed Podcast. 73 00:03:34.837 --> 00:03:37.220 If there's one key message you'd like people to hear today, 74 00:03:37.798 --> 00:03:38.236 what would it be? 75 00:03:39.860 --> 00:03:48.271 I would say it is that we as a society cannot fail on implementing regenerative agriculture because that's our ecological income, 76 00:03:48.490 --> 00:03:48.888 I feel. 77 00:03:49.006 --> 00:03:53.396 So it's really something that matters enormously. 78 00:03:54.232 --> 00:03:56.693 And it's not only about the food, 79 00:03:57.178 --> 00:03:58.771 it's also about our environment. 80 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:00.553 You know, 81 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:04.146 I feel that we're currently, 82 00:04:04.178 --> 00:04:06.365 when it comes to climate and biodiversity, 83 00:04:06.662 --> 00:04:07.974 more looking at what we... 84 00:04:08.472 --> 00:04:28.286 lose and what our cost items are and not so much on the revenue and i'm sure that region ag is able to manage this in a way it has to be so we should start to swap from just looking at cost into what's our revenue and also drive that one you're 85 00:04:28.287 --> 00:04:31.473 talking about ecological income and revenue here. 86 00:04:31.536 --> 00:04:32.520 Could you expand on that? 87 00:04:33.130 --> 00:04:33.301 Yeah, 88 00:04:33.411 --> 00:04:36.301 so if you look at the state of our planet, 89 00:04:37.020 --> 00:04:37.380 or let's... 90 00:04:37.712 --> 00:04:38.432 call it differently. 91 00:04:39.153 --> 00:04:46.273 The biomass productivity of our earth is pretty much linked to our cost items. 92 00:04:46.835 --> 00:04:49.491 So if you see what we're using at a society, 93 00:04:50.359 --> 00:04:52.538 it's actually everything biomass based. 94 00:04:52.757 --> 00:04:53.882 So when you say using, 95 00:04:53.898 --> 00:04:55.538 you mean everything we consume, 96 00:04:55.616 --> 00:04:56.132 products, 97 00:04:56.210 --> 00:04:56.538 energy, 98 00:04:56.632 --> 00:04:56.991 everything. 99 00:04:57.241 --> 00:04:59.398 And let's, 100 00:04:59.413 --> 00:04:59.898 for example, 101 00:04:59.899 --> 00:04:59.991 look 102 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:00.780 into concrete, 103 00:05:00.781 --> 00:05:01.160 you could say, 104 00:05:01.221 --> 00:05:01.460 okay, 105 00:05:01.601 --> 00:05:02.061 stones. 106 00:05:02.701 --> 00:05:03.021 But no, 107 00:05:03.461 --> 00:05:05.223 because when you sit in front of that rock, 108 00:05:05.441 --> 00:05:06.902 how do you actually work it? 109 00:05:07.363 --> 00:05:08.180 You need biomass, 110 00:05:08.219 --> 00:05:09.445 you need something to heat it. 111 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:10.781 That's either oil, 112 00:05:10.844 --> 00:05:11.125 gas, 113 00:05:11.219 --> 00:05:11.586 coal, 114 00:05:13.320 --> 00:05:13.602 wood, 115 00:05:14.086 --> 00:05:14.484 and so on. 116 00:05:14.500 --> 00:05:15.664 And that's all biomass. 117 00:05:16.141 --> 00:05:20.531 So people don't actually make the link of oil, 118 00:05:20.688 --> 00:05:21.047 gas, 119 00:05:21.188 --> 00:05:21.578 coal, 120 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:22.672 plastics, 121 00:05:22.766 --> 00:05:23.672 petrochemicals, 122 00:05:23.719 --> 00:05:24.531 medication, 123 00:05:25.625 --> 00:05:25.984 wood, 124 00:05:26.859 --> 00:05:29.609 any fiber that you could think of textile. 125 00:05:29.868 --> 00:05:32.091 food that this is all biomass based. 126 00:05:32.572 --> 00:05:33.994 And even at concrete and iron, 127 00:05:34.052 --> 00:05:35.572 you couldn't work without biomass. 128 00:05:36.275 --> 00:05:39.580 So pretty much all we use is biomass based. 129 00:05:40.275 --> 00:05:43.822 And in history of earth, 130 00:05:44.103 --> 00:05:46.541 compared to the peaks in biomass productivity, 131 00:05:47.541 --> 00:05:49.603 we have reached a level of less than 50%, 132 00:05:50.728 --> 00:05:52.337 constantly declining. 133 00:05:53.150 --> 00:05:54.556 And when that's what we use, 134 00:05:54.587 --> 00:05:56.259 then that's our ecological income. 135 00:05:56.931 --> 00:05:57.181 Okay, 136 00:05:57.259 --> 00:05:58.041 so the amount 137 00:05:58.836 --> 00:06:03.579 Let's say each year that the earth is producing biomass and how much we actually use. 138 00:06:03.861 --> 00:06:03.982 Yeah. 139 00:06:04.021 --> 00:06:04.962 If that's in balance, 140 00:06:05.064 --> 00:06:05.521 we're fine. 141 00:06:05.982 --> 00:06:06.103 Yeah. 142 00:06:06.204 --> 00:06:11.411 Then there's no excess climate emissions because you produce as much as you use, 143 00:06:11.669 --> 00:06:13.372 which puts it back in balance. 144 00:06:14.708 --> 00:06:15.107 Right now, 145 00:06:15.247 --> 00:06:19.779 farmers are just looking at the biomass productivity of the sellable yield, 146 00:06:20.700 --> 00:06:22.497 not of the entire plant productivity. 147 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:26.779 And the slash in biomass productivity we have seen. 148 00:06:27.316 --> 00:06:29.577 is mainly related to deforestation. 149 00:06:30.237 --> 00:06:33.016 And even when you look at latest climate calculations, 150 00:06:33.298 --> 00:06:38.376 that's still a large chunk land use change and deforestation obviously. 151 00:06:38.540 --> 00:06:48.696 And what we actually want to do is to create the awareness of the farmers that there's more than just a sellable yield. 152 00:06:49.462 --> 00:06:55.509 That you really should grow plants on every meter square on your farm every day to maximize its productivity. 153 00:06:56.076 --> 00:06:57.316 And that's what RegenEgg can do. 154 00:06:58.357 --> 00:06:58.557 Okay, 155 00:06:58.637 --> 00:07:01.398 so it's not just about producing the sellable crop. 156 00:07:01.676 --> 00:07:05.176 It's about producing biomass in every possible form. 157 00:07:05.418 --> 00:07:05.558 Yeah, 158 00:07:05.582 --> 00:07:07.801 and I would even call that ecosystem services. 159 00:07:09.223 --> 00:07:11.582 I see it on my farm when I look back. 160 00:07:12.683 --> 00:07:15.887 So with the biomass increase, 161 00:07:16.605 --> 00:07:17.855 with the more plant growth, 162 00:07:18.465 --> 00:07:19.965 you have also the biodiversity, 163 00:07:20.074 --> 00:07:20.605 the soil, 164 00:07:20.683 --> 00:07:21.621 everything coming back. 165 00:07:22.465 --> 00:07:23.996 So it's positively linked. 166 00:07:25.428 --> 00:07:28.412 So in many cases, 167 00:07:28.472 --> 00:07:31.495 we see extensification as a solution. 168 00:07:33.035 --> 00:07:36.199 And my personal belief is that that's a mistake. 169 00:07:36.722 --> 00:07:40.261 We need to have intense productivity on the fields, 170 00:07:40.761 --> 00:07:48.308 but we need to focus on the entire thing and then the ecosystem to have the positive effects more than the negative ones. 171 00:07:48.527 --> 00:07:49.292 And we can do that. 172 00:07:50.417 --> 00:07:54.120 So I can clearly demonstrate on my farm that with region ag approaches, 173 00:07:54.152 --> 00:07:54.933 this is possible. 174 00:07:55.897 --> 00:08:00.481 But it's more complex than just doing a bit of no-till or doing a bit of cover crops. 175 00:08:09.333 --> 00:08:10.372 When it comes to outcomes, 176 00:08:10.387 --> 00:08:11.653 you need to define what they are. 177 00:08:13.028 --> 00:08:14.012 And there's physics. 178 00:08:15.348 --> 00:08:21.728 But then there's also finding an agreement amongst the stakeholders that are having to drive this. 179 00:08:22.791 --> 00:08:26.514 What we identified is the stakeholders to drive this are the farmers, 180 00:08:27.271 --> 00:08:28.350 but it's also the industry. 181 00:08:29.568 --> 00:08:30.295 And then even more, 182 00:08:30.296 --> 00:08:40.717 it's all the NGOs that are there and trying to make a living out of it by sometimes objecting or at least checking that things are working well. 183 00:08:41.880 --> 00:08:45.603 And then obviously it's always also the internal view of whatever company is, 184 00:08:45.644 --> 00:08:46.605 that's the employees. 185 00:08:48.187 --> 00:08:50.867 So what we're trying to do is create 186 00:08:51.547 --> 00:08:53.554 AgriPurpose, which is a purpose venture. 187 00:08:54.789 --> 00:08:58.211 So what it does is it splits the capital rights from the voting rights. 188 00:08:58.476 --> 00:09:00.679 So the voting rights you would have in a general assembly, 189 00:09:01.257 --> 00:09:03.289 the ones that decide what happens on a company. 190 00:09:04.007 --> 00:09:10.836 And we try to unite in this those four key stakeholder groups to then define with them. 191 00:09:11.412 --> 00:09:17.999 which outcomes should be actually monitored and to find a way to define them, 192 00:09:18.538 --> 00:09:21.120 but to measure and validate them and to improve them. 193 00:09:22.261 --> 00:09:24.183 And I think something neutral like this, 194 00:09:24.284 --> 00:09:26.386 and we're looking there into just four buckets. 195 00:09:26.425 --> 00:09:28.792 So we look at biomass productivity overall, 196 00:09:30.355 --> 00:09:31.995 we look at soil cover overall, 197 00:09:33.167 --> 00:09:34.198 we look at soil health, 198 00:09:34.511 --> 00:09:37.276 and that includes for us the soil organic carbon. 199 00:09:37.323 --> 00:09:40.526 So it's the bulk density plus the SOC percentages 200 00:09:41.052 --> 00:09:43.234 but also pH and macronutrients, 201 00:09:43.394 --> 00:09:47.660 because long-term sequestration only happens when those are in balance too. 202 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:50.039 And then last is the efficiency. 203 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:51.984 So what's the yields you have produced? 204 00:09:52.422 --> 00:09:54.484 And there we only look into sellable yields. 205 00:09:55.547 --> 00:09:55.929 Meaning, 206 00:09:56.164 --> 00:09:59.992 if you produce corn on your fields that you use to feed your cows, 207 00:10:00.773 --> 00:10:03.436 We don't count it in because that's not something you sell. 208 00:10:04.256 --> 00:10:05.358 So sellable yields, 209 00:10:05.897 --> 00:10:07.319 that can be any crop. 210 00:10:07.678 --> 00:10:08.420 It can be milk, 211 00:10:08.576 --> 00:10:08.858 wool, 212 00:10:09.319 --> 00:10:10.240 meat whatsoever, 213 00:10:10.686 --> 00:10:11.006 eggs. 214 00:10:13.006 --> 00:10:15.147 And then the inputs you have used for that. 215 00:10:15.686 --> 00:10:17.201 And we just look at six items. 216 00:10:17.248 --> 00:10:17.951 So it's fuel, 217 00:10:18.858 --> 00:10:19.389 it's energy, 218 00:10:20.467 --> 00:10:22.373 it's nutrients used. 219 00:10:22.374 --> 00:10:24.529 So that can be fodder purchased or sold, 220 00:10:25.201 --> 00:10:27.201 mineral fertilizer purchased or sold. 221 00:10:27.980 --> 00:10:30.843 or actually organics brought to the farm or taken from the farm. 222 00:10:30.962 --> 00:10:34.365 Always just what matters to us is the nutrients inside. 223 00:10:35.189 --> 00:10:35.486 Water, 224 00:10:36.806 --> 00:10:37.970 the crop protection use. 225 00:10:38.392 --> 00:10:40.634 We look at money because the stuff is value priced. 226 00:10:41.072 --> 00:10:42.978 So it's actually if you use less money, 227 00:10:44.103 --> 00:10:44.869 you have used less. 228 00:10:45.744 --> 00:10:51.197 It's harder to do it with any other stuff. 229 00:10:51.728 --> 00:10:54.228 And then it's the animal load because if it's too low, 230 00:10:54.384 --> 00:10:55.744 it starts to harm soils. 231 00:10:55.976 --> 00:10:56.717 And if it's too high, 232 00:10:56.718 --> 00:10:58.598 it starts to create excess emissions. 233 00:10:59.479 --> 00:11:00.319 And that's pretty much it. 234 00:11:00.479 --> 00:11:02.221 So we try to validate on this one. 235 00:11:02.502 --> 00:11:02.682 Okay, 236 00:11:02.764 --> 00:11:03.303 so sorry, 237 00:11:03.304 --> 00:11:04.608 because there's so much information here. 238 00:11:04.764 --> 00:11:06.288 I want to make sure that everyone stays on board, 239 00:11:06.389 --> 00:11:07.147 including myself. 240 00:11:07.569 --> 00:11:07.788 Okay. 241 00:11:08.772 --> 00:11:09.467 I'd like to think that 242 00:11:11.155 --> 00:11:12.827 I'm in a good position to do these interviews, 243 00:11:12.858 --> 00:11:16.577 not because I am knowledgeable about these topics, 244 00:11:16.655 --> 00:11:17.358 but because I'm not. 245 00:11:17.983 --> 00:11:21.186 And so I can ask the silly questions and make sure that everyone stays on board with me. 246 00:11:22.545 --> 00:11:24.842 So you're trying to define the outcomes. 247 00:11:25.132 --> 00:11:27.474 that we could build an outcome-based system on. 248 00:11:29.216 --> 00:11:38.802 And here you were just citing all of the different metrics or the different things that you look at to define outcomes. 249 00:11:39.466 --> 00:11:42.724 And so let's go through them again really quickly. 250 00:11:43.208 --> 00:11:45.958 So first you talked about net primary productivity. 251 00:11:46.193 --> 00:11:46.333 Yeah, 252 00:11:46.334 --> 00:11:47.427 it's the biomass productivity. 253 00:11:47.927 --> 00:11:48.490 It's linked. 254 00:11:48.552 --> 00:11:50.911 It's not exactly the primary productivity. 255 00:11:51.052 --> 00:11:53.536 It's linked to the net primary productivity. 256 00:11:54.188 --> 00:11:57.811 And what we know is that one is linked a lot to soil health. 257 00:11:58.311 --> 00:11:59.835 So actually, 258 00:11:59.854 --> 00:12:02.096 the more net primary productivity you have, 259 00:12:03.756 --> 00:12:06.256 the more soil organic carbon you have, 260 00:12:06.381 --> 00:12:07.522 the healthier your soil. 261 00:12:07.538 --> 00:12:10.170 And then you have this positive feedback loop finally. 262 00:12:11.592 --> 00:12:14.733 So the intention is first maximize net primary productivity, 263 00:12:15.514 --> 00:12:16.374 then protect this. 264 00:12:16.436 --> 00:12:18.045 So the protect is the soil cover. 265 00:12:18.686 --> 00:12:23.139 Because what you should try to avoid is that your soil overheats more than 40 degrees. 266 00:12:23.620 --> 00:12:23.900 For that, 267 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:25.002 it needs to be covered, 268 00:12:25.723 --> 00:12:28.603 never any dark part of the soil being exposed to the sun. 269 00:12:29.967 --> 00:12:34.791 Then it actually should not be exposed to water and wind erosion. 270 00:12:35.713 --> 00:12:36.572 And that's the cover. 271 00:12:36.853 --> 00:12:39.533 So the more time of the year it's covered, 272 00:12:39.643 --> 00:12:40.033 the better. 273 00:12:40.236 --> 00:12:42.814 And it doesn't count when you have planted something. 274 00:12:42.815 --> 00:12:50.299 The thing is when is actually there some green growing or some structures remaining from plants that you can see with satellite. 275 00:12:51.643 --> 00:12:53.455 So these are the first two that we checked. 276 00:12:53.961 --> 00:12:55.141 So again, 277 00:12:57.706 --> 00:12:58.124 biomass, 278 00:12:58.186 --> 00:13:00.307 which is linked to net primary productivity. 279 00:13:00.667 --> 00:13:01.307 And soil cover. 280 00:13:01.549 --> 00:13:02.190 And soil cover. 281 00:13:02.667 --> 00:13:04.292 And that gives you an indicator, 282 00:13:04.354 --> 00:13:05.651 you get certain results. 283 00:13:05.956 --> 00:13:06.612 Yes. 284 00:13:06.776 --> 00:13:11.940 So how we do it is we compare those values that the farm achieves with the neighborhood. 285 00:13:12.862 --> 00:13:14.456 So we do that automatically. 286 00:13:15.003 --> 00:13:15.487 Automatically? 287 00:13:15.643 --> 00:13:15.784 Yeah. 288 00:13:15.956 --> 00:13:17.987 And then anywhere on the planet. 289 00:13:18.706 --> 00:13:19.799 With satellite data? 290 00:13:20.049 --> 00:13:20.159 Yeah. 291 00:13:20.736 --> 00:13:24.281 And that's the cool bit is when you compare the farm with its surroundings, 292 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:26.523 it's actually always context specific. 293 00:13:26.542 --> 00:13:29.386 So there the context specific comes into the outcome based. 294 00:13:30.503 --> 00:13:35.691 And then it's the continuous improvement because we want those numbers to be improving against the region. 295 00:13:36.613 --> 00:13:39.167 And think of it like algebra, 296 00:13:39.230 --> 00:13:43.683 like a formula kind of thing. 297 00:13:43.839 --> 00:13:46.605 And when you have things on both sides of the equation, 298 00:13:47.198 --> 00:13:49.198 they usually are. 299 00:13:50.152 --> 00:13:51.373 You can just take them apart, 300 00:13:51.873 --> 00:13:52.354 take them away. 301 00:13:52.434 --> 00:13:54.618 So weather and stuff is all the same. 302 00:13:54.619 --> 00:14:00.164 So many things are kind of same farm to the region. 303 00:14:00.805 --> 00:14:03.422 So you're actually kind of unraveling the fog through this. 304 00:14:04.149 --> 00:14:09.914 And what we're then doing is we're always asking the farmer when he's underperforming or overperforming against the region, 305 00:14:10.727 --> 00:14:11.289 what he did. 306 00:14:12.086 --> 00:14:13.883 And the cool bit is with satellite data, 307 00:14:13.930 --> 00:14:15.399 you can look backwards seven, 308 00:14:15.493 --> 00:14:16.680 eight years now. 309 00:14:18.036 --> 00:14:20.119 Meaning we can learn from the last seven, 310 00:14:20.197 --> 00:14:21.359 eight years what he did. 311 00:14:22.420 --> 00:14:24.623 And then what went well and what didn't. 312 00:14:25.143 --> 00:14:30.025 And then you get the right focus to start where you need to start first to improve, 313 00:14:30.627 --> 00:14:32.908 to actually maximize the outcomes. 314 00:14:33.908 --> 00:14:34.025 Yes. 315 00:14:34.057 --> 00:14:35.369 So it's not only a measure, 316 00:14:35.400 --> 00:14:39.291 it's also a very nice toolkit to focus and optimize. 317 00:14:39.822 --> 00:14:39.963 Yeah. 318 00:14:41.025 --> 00:14:42.697 And then we go and measure the soil carbon. 319 00:14:43.322 --> 00:14:43.838 Soil carbon. 320 00:14:43.853 --> 00:14:45.088 So that's soil sampling. 321 00:14:46.260 --> 00:14:47.010 So how does that work? 322 00:14:48.008 --> 00:14:48.949 So with the satellite, 323 00:14:48.970 --> 00:14:53.555 we look at the variation of your soil over the last seven years. 324 00:14:54.716 --> 00:14:57.438 And then through this, 325 00:14:57.774 --> 00:14:59.962 we go and sample at the right places. 326 00:15:01.402 --> 00:15:04.825 Most do today that it's optimized for just soil carbon, 327 00:15:05.126 --> 00:15:10.173 but we know it's more so pH is as important for long-term sequestration as macronutrients. 328 00:15:10.189 --> 00:15:11.572 So we want it to be balanced. 329 00:15:12.673 --> 00:15:17.611 So we sample where there's most differences and then that goes to the lab. 330 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:19.517 You get the result and with an AI, 331 00:15:19.564 --> 00:15:21.923 we can then distribute it at 10 by 10 meter. 332 00:15:22.517 --> 00:15:22.720 Okay. 333 00:15:22.829 --> 00:15:26.126 Is that something easy to do for farmers to take those samples and to... 334 00:15:26.392 --> 00:15:26.673 Well, 335 00:15:26.704 --> 00:15:27.126 I don't know. 336 00:15:27.512 --> 00:15:27.732 Yeah, 337 00:15:27.853 --> 00:15:27.973 no. 338 00:15:29.274 --> 00:15:29.394 No, 339 00:15:29.755 --> 00:15:31.276 we don't want farmers to take it. 340 00:15:32.276 --> 00:15:37.761 The reason being is we have seen that there is the potential to trick the system. 341 00:15:38.761 --> 00:15:43.886 So we don't want them to know exactly where the sampling happens for a good reason. 342 00:15:44.683 --> 00:15:48.698 So it should be external providers doing that because it's finally, 343 00:15:48.886 --> 00:15:51.183 hopefully related to money. 344 00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:53.964 And then you need to have some safeguards in place. 345 00:15:54.261 --> 00:15:54.464 Okay. 346 00:15:55.724 --> 00:15:57.105 We have a sampler doing that. 347 00:15:57.165 --> 00:15:59.548 It goes to the lab with the result and an AI. 348 00:15:59.568 --> 00:16:01.289 You get the high resolution soil data. 349 00:16:02.089 --> 00:16:06.574 Usually see that this can help with fertilization or as I do it, 350 00:16:06.652 --> 00:16:10.597 an optimization of the cover crops. 351 00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:12.097 So I make an example. 352 00:16:12.207 --> 00:16:15.425 When I see that I lack somewhere in phosphorus, 353 00:16:16.785 --> 00:16:17.660 usually there's enough. 354 00:16:17.722 --> 00:16:19.066 It's just no plant available. 355 00:16:19.363 --> 00:16:23.566 So what I do is I focus with the cover crops on buckwheat because that... 356 00:16:23.780 --> 00:16:43.461 kind of freeze up phosphorus we know that so i put in the mix additional buckwheat when i know it's a problem there or when it's potassium i put ceradella so it's like the same just just for the other nutrients so you can either do precision farming with all the technology or you use nature to then balance the field and 357 00:16:43.462 --> 00:16:52.321 you need to see and know that even on small fields like mine like two hectares because there's sometimes huge differences and then when you have the average 358 00:16:53.652 --> 00:16:56.856 It's like having one arm in cold and one arm in hot water. 359 00:16:57.016 --> 00:16:58.919 You're just doing the wrong thing everywhere. 360 00:16:59.239 --> 00:17:02.618 So we're trying to actually get this at rest. 361 00:17:02.704 --> 00:17:03.423 That's what it does. 362 00:17:03.485 --> 00:17:08.384 So we see that farmers are moving quicker and it saves them about 100 euros per hectare per year. 363 00:17:08.470 --> 00:17:09.227 So it's a lot of money. 364 00:17:09.368 --> 00:17:10.032 It's a lot of money, 365 00:17:10.063 --> 00:17:10.735 yeah. 366 00:17:10.891 --> 00:17:15.048 But so you need a lot of different samples to be able for the model to get the highest results? 367 00:17:15.454 --> 00:17:15.595 Yeah, 368 00:17:15.626 --> 00:17:16.516 we need three per, 369 00:17:17.829 --> 00:17:18.376 as a minimum. 370 00:17:18.735 --> 00:17:19.704 So small fields, 371 00:17:19.751 --> 00:17:20.298 that's more, 372 00:17:20.376 --> 00:17:21.938 but we only go for the 373 00:17:22.152 --> 00:17:39.715 one third of the fields because with the first step we identify which soils are the least performing and then usually you also there have the right focus so you start implementing where you have to do it first so the satellite data tells you where uh 374 00:17:39.716 --> 00:17:50.699 you have the biggest problems which are the biggest problems in the in kind of which fields yeah and there i do the most intense sampling so again it's the focus for the optimization yeah and then 375 00:17:51.508 --> 00:17:51.648 Yeah, 376 00:17:51.649 --> 00:17:56.087 the last bit is when you're maximizing net primary productivity, 377 00:17:56.829 --> 00:17:58.310 protect what you have produced, 378 00:17:58.650 --> 00:17:59.833 improve the soil health, 379 00:18:00.286 --> 00:18:02.591 then it's actually how efficiently have you achieved this. 380 00:18:03.607 --> 00:18:05.169 And there we look into the yields, 381 00:18:06.169 --> 00:18:07.435 but only the soil yields, 382 00:18:07.497 --> 00:18:12.591 because that's a better link to what are the calories you have produced for human consumption. 383 00:18:13.091 --> 00:18:15.888 It's not perfect because you still can combine, 384 00:18:15.935 --> 00:18:16.419 let's say, 385 00:18:17.216 --> 00:18:18.450 corn or soy, 386 00:18:18.857 --> 00:18:19.857 and it goes into fodder. 387 00:18:21.772 --> 00:18:26.895 But it reduces already all the intra-farm kind of processes. 388 00:18:26.938 --> 00:18:31.880 So let's say you do corn silage and then you feed it to the cows. 389 00:18:32.544 --> 00:18:32.786 Again, 390 00:18:32.801 --> 00:18:33.903 we do not care about this. 391 00:18:33.926 --> 00:18:35.403 We only care then about the milk, 392 00:18:35.606 --> 00:18:36.005 the meat, 393 00:18:36.106 --> 00:18:37.325 the animals you have produced. 394 00:18:37.606 --> 00:18:37.833 Yes. 395 00:18:38.723 --> 00:18:43.614 And I think that's a better link to what's the efficiency in terms of human food production. 396 00:18:44.755 --> 00:18:50.536 And then we just check what have been the inputs that came from somewhere else to achieve all this. 397 00:18:51.433 --> 00:18:52.714 And that we want to minimize. 398 00:18:53.294 --> 00:18:54.796 So we want to maximize all the rest, 399 00:18:54.855 --> 00:18:57.378 maximize the yield and minimize the inputs. 400 00:18:59.117 --> 00:19:03.601 In our scheme is as long as you are actually improving on those four items, 401 00:19:04.343 --> 00:19:05.046 you're in the scheme. 402 00:19:06.109 --> 00:19:07.968 You can have one year down performance. 403 00:19:09.546 --> 00:19:09.828 Okay, 404 00:19:09.968 --> 00:19:11.187 because that can always happen. 405 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:13.249 One step back to take two steps ahead. 406 00:19:14.171 --> 00:19:15.078 If you have two years, 407 00:19:15.109 --> 00:19:20.015 you need to book a consulting and establish an action plan on your farm to stay in the scheme. 408 00:19:20.212 --> 00:19:23.116 That's kind of how we were going to do it as AgriPurpose. 409 00:19:31.885 --> 00:19:33.784 Thank you so much for listening to this episode. 410 00:19:34.050 --> 00:19:35.143 I hope you enjoyed it. 411 00:19:35.807 --> 00:19:38.237 If you'd like to support me and my work, 412 00:19:38.737 --> 00:19:45.175 you can actually do that in just three seconds by clicking on the Deep Seed page and clicking on the follow or subscribe button. 413 00:19:45.815 --> 00:19:46.362 It really, 414 00:19:46.425 --> 00:19:47.018 really helps. 415 00:19:47.034 --> 00:19:49.737 It tells the algorithms that people like yourselves. 416 00:19:49.884 --> 00:19:58.996 are interested in these kind of contents and it will bring it to the ears and the eyes of more people so that the whole regenerative movement can grow and we can, 417 00:19:59.332 --> 00:19:59.574 you know, 418 00:19:59.652 --> 00:20:01.152 achieve something beautiful together, 419 00:20:01.433 --> 00:20:01.840 hopefully. 420 00:20:01.996 --> 00:20:03.762 So thank you so much in advance. 421 00:20:03.980 --> 00:20:05.402 Have a great rest of your day, 422 00:20:05.722 --> 00:20:06.574 a beautiful life. 423 00:20:06.887 --> 00:20:07.277 See you soon.