WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:01.982 Today on Biblical Higher Ed Talk, 2 00:00:02.042 --> 00:00:02.943 we celebrate our 3 00:00:03.704 --> 00:00:06.607 100th episode with a very special guest, 4 00:00:06.704 --> 00:00:07.306 Matt Whitman. 5 00:00:07.767 --> 00:00:09.970 He's an influencer and creator of the 6 00:00:10.493 --> 00:00:11.408 10-Minute Bible Hour. 7 00:00:12.072 --> 00:00:20.376 Here is his story and how God is using his channels to have honest conversations around what it means to follow Christ. 8 00:00:29.536 --> 00:00:30.756 Thank you for tuning in today. 9 00:00:31.016 --> 00:00:31.717 I'm your host, 10 00:00:31.877 --> 00:00:32.737 Philip Dearborn, 11 00:00:33.276 --> 00:00:33.897 and it is our 12 00:00:34.538 --> 00:00:35.217 100th episode. 13 00:00:35.436 --> 00:00:39.217 We have been at this for just over a couple of years, 14 00:00:39.795 --> 00:00:40.577 and personally, 15 00:00:40.717 --> 00:00:43.920 I have had a blast hosting this podcast, 16 00:00:43.959 --> 00:00:45.077 Biblical Higher Ed Talk. 17 00:00:45.139 --> 00:00:46.842 We've had fantastic guests, 18 00:00:47.467 --> 00:00:49.686 and I guess in the podcast world, 19 00:00:49.717 --> 00:00:51.498 what you do is to celebrate your 20 00:00:51.905 --> 00:00:52.686 100th episode. 21 00:00:53.014 --> 00:00:56.342 You try to get somebody as famous as you possibly can. 22 00:00:56.639 --> 00:00:58.545 So I reached high and low, 23 00:00:59.124 --> 00:00:59.505 And 24 00:01:00.046 --> 00:01:02.928 I'm blessed to have Matt Whitman with us. 25 00:01:03.327 --> 00:01:04.909 Matt is somebody that I met, 26 00:01:05.108 --> 00:01:07.155 I think it was probably about three years ago, 27 00:01:07.335 --> 00:01:11.178 four years ago in Philadelphia at first at a conference that we were attending. 28 00:01:11.436 --> 00:01:15.960 And I think you were just kind of getting started or in the mix of doing the 10-Minute Bible Hour. 29 00:01:16.288 --> 00:01:26.553 Then we met again a couple of years later and I'd launched the podcast and you were so incredibly encouraging to me as I was kind of planning kind of what does this podcast look like and guests and... 30 00:01:26.824 --> 00:01:28.085 How do I get into this space? 31 00:01:28.086 --> 00:01:31.147 And I was super nervous when I would have guests on and how do I, 32 00:01:31.487 --> 00:01:33.249 and you were just such an incredible help. 33 00:01:33.250 --> 00:01:35.393 It was maybe about a half hour conversation, 34 00:01:35.854 --> 00:01:36.534 but it stuck with me. 35 00:01:36.831 --> 00:01:40.018 And I super appreciated your engagement with me. 36 00:01:40.581 --> 00:01:42.503 And so when I thought 100th episode, 37 00:01:42.698 --> 00:01:44.878 why don't I give it a shot and invite Matt? 38 00:01:45.034 --> 00:01:46.518 And you said yes. 39 00:01:46.909 --> 00:01:47.065 Well, 40 00:01:47.097 --> 00:01:47.659 of course. 41 00:01:47.972 --> 00:01:48.128 Yeah. 42 00:01:48.300 --> 00:01:51.847 I remember the conversations and remember them fondly. 43 00:01:51.893 --> 00:01:55.034 That Philadelphia conference was time really well spent. 44 00:01:55.112 --> 00:01:55.237 and 45 00:01:56.084 --> 00:02:03.511 I think really one of the highlights of that second one was sitting and shooting the breeze with you on the front end of your project or close to the front end of it. 46 00:02:03.613 --> 00:02:03.730 So 47 00:02:04.675 --> 00:02:05.253 I'm glad you're doing it. 48 00:02:05.254 --> 00:02:05.871 How's it been going? 49 00:02:06.292 --> 00:02:06.878 Fantastic. 50 00:02:06.972 --> 00:02:07.699 We've had a blast. 51 00:02:07.753 --> 00:02:12.019 We have a great group of listeners who consistently tune in. 52 00:02:12.566 --> 00:02:18.066 And the way I say it is no one wants to tune in and listen to me talk. 53 00:02:18.550 --> 00:02:21.535 So basically what I've done and kind of made it my own to say, 54 00:02:21.785 --> 00:02:23.207 I want to hear other people's stories. 55 00:02:23.519 --> 00:02:23.753 And 56 00:02:24.132 --> 00:02:25.573 The thing about biblical higher education, 57 00:02:25.613 --> 00:02:26.635 Christian higher education, 58 00:02:26.914 --> 00:02:29.158 leadership filled with interesting people. 59 00:02:29.459 --> 00:02:34.459 So we've kind of used the format where I just bring in a guest and we talk about a book that they've written or, 60 00:02:35.006 --> 00:02:35.240 you know, 61 00:02:35.303 --> 00:02:36.022 new presidents, 62 00:02:36.201 --> 00:02:38.850 how the first six months of your presidency gone, 63 00:02:38.865 --> 00:02:40.795 what are some things that you'd like to do differently? 64 00:02:41.373 --> 00:02:43.936 We have just a broad variety of people and I, 65 00:02:44.545 --> 00:02:45.733 I'm a studier of people. 66 00:02:46.092 --> 00:02:49.498 And when I have that chance to just kind of interact with them, 67 00:02:49.936 --> 00:02:50.701 I've really enjoyed it. 68 00:02:50.842 --> 00:02:53.514 And I hope our audience has enjoyed it too along the way. 69 00:02:54.036 --> 00:02:55.098 What do you hope they get out of it? 70 00:02:55.137 --> 00:02:57.240 How do you hope it helps the people who listen? 71 00:02:58.119 --> 00:03:01.885 So the way I say it is I want people to have just a 72 00:03:02.322 --> 00:03:04.244 30-minute infusion of encouragement, 73 00:03:04.307 --> 00:03:04.846 challenge, 74 00:03:05.025 --> 00:03:05.549 leadership. 75 00:03:06.088 --> 00:03:06.830 That's how we learn. 76 00:03:07.049 --> 00:03:10.588 I think a lot of times learning is misunderstood. 77 00:03:10.666 --> 00:03:16.572 Like we have to have this amazing experience with all of the right settings and all of the right inputs. 78 00:03:16.666 --> 00:03:18.572 And now I'm ready to learn. 79 00:03:18.822 --> 00:03:21.885 And real life is you just kind of learn on the fly. 80 00:03:22.256 --> 00:03:26.221 And so that's why we've designed it the way we have in little 30 minute segments. 81 00:03:26.561 --> 00:03:27.862 Are you going to get something every time? 82 00:03:27.940 --> 00:03:28.162 Maybe, 83 00:03:28.362 --> 00:03:28.823 maybe not, 84 00:03:28.881 --> 00:03:30.604 but we're consistently doing it. 85 00:03:31.026 --> 00:03:35.151 And that was the advice that you gave to me with my podcast to say, 86 00:03:35.190 --> 00:03:35.409 okay, 87 00:03:36.190 --> 00:03:36.393 yeah, 88 00:03:36.448 --> 00:03:37.573 you can do whatever you want to, 89 00:03:37.729 --> 00:03:39.627 but what is it that's going to make it your own? 90 00:03:39.909 --> 00:03:41.112 And that's what I really, 91 00:03:41.330 --> 00:03:42.284 really appreciated. 92 00:03:42.393 --> 00:03:44.362 And you've been on quite a journey with, 93 00:03:44.565 --> 00:03:45.237 with podcasts, 94 00:03:45.238 --> 00:03:46.393 with the 10 minute Bible hour. 95 00:03:46.784 --> 00:03:51.877 Why don't you just kind of talk to us about your journey of launching it? 96 00:03:52.036 --> 00:03:52.897 getting into it. 97 00:03:53.057 --> 00:03:58.561 How did you start and kind of where are you at today when you were in kindergarten and they were going through the, 98 00:03:58.784 --> 00:03:59.002 uh, 99 00:03:59.502 --> 00:04:01.202 so what do you want to do when you grow up? 100 00:04:01.203 --> 00:04:01.327 Um, 101 00:04:01.944 --> 00:04:02.530 did you say, 102 00:04:02.709 --> 00:04:04.288 did you say host of the, 103 00:04:04.289 --> 00:04:04.506 uh, 104 00:04:04.569 --> 00:04:04.709 uh, 105 00:04:05.772 --> 00:04:06.788 the 10 minute Bible hour? 106 00:04:07.592 --> 00:04:07.709 No, 107 00:04:07.710 --> 00:04:08.592 I'll tell you what I said. 108 00:04:09.155 --> 00:04:12.170 I wanted to be a president from space. 109 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:14.920 I wanted to be the first astronaut president. 110 00:04:15.577 --> 00:04:16.217 Wow. 111 00:04:16.405 --> 00:04:18.014 Those would both be really cool jobs, 112 00:04:18.077 --> 00:04:19.670 but I wanted to do them at the same time. 113 00:04:20.184 --> 00:04:22.405 And I don't want to be an astronaut from Washington. 114 00:04:23.007 --> 00:04:23.687 That's stupid. 115 00:04:23.688 --> 00:04:25.530 So I'm going to have to be a president from space. 116 00:04:25.890 --> 00:04:26.632 Hasn't happened yet. 117 00:04:26.991 --> 00:04:27.651 Don't rule it out. 118 00:04:27.812 --> 00:04:31.374 It's still on my radar a little bit to be president of space. 119 00:04:31.897 --> 00:04:32.913 More realistically, 120 00:04:33.616 --> 00:04:38.499 in high school and then again in college as freshmen both times, 121 00:04:38.921 --> 00:04:39.390 they did the thing, 122 00:04:39.391 --> 00:04:39.562 you know, 123 00:04:39.563 --> 00:04:41.405 what would be your just dream job? 124 00:04:41.780 --> 00:04:42.671 And I wrote down, 125 00:04:42.702 --> 00:04:44.515 I didn't know what the language was for it, 126 00:04:44.516 --> 00:04:48.265 but effectively I was describing like an educational. 127 00:04:49.213 --> 00:04:53.438 history documentary cable host. 128 00:04:53.957 --> 00:05:09.508 Like that person who goes around and looks at awesome stuff and is unafraid to tell you they're excited about the awesome stuff and they tell you in a story in a way that normal people can understand so that they will see the beauty of it that I see in it because I was in love with 129 00:05:09.820 --> 00:05:13.711 stories and history and all the really juicy stuff from history. 130 00:05:14.102 --> 00:05:16.320 And I had a couple teachers in middle school, 131 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:17.164 high school and... 132 00:05:17.597 --> 00:05:19.359 great ones in college and beyond. 133 00:05:19.900 --> 00:05:24.462 I just understood that you can give me the facts and that works and it's fine. 134 00:05:24.583 --> 00:05:29.025 Or you can tell me the story and also give me the facts and that'll stick forever. 135 00:05:29.072 --> 00:05:29.908 That'll change me. 136 00:05:30.447 --> 00:05:32.470 You can get me to put myself in the story. 137 00:05:32.471 --> 00:05:33.579 So I wanted to do that. 138 00:05:34.454 --> 00:05:34.658 You know, 139 00:05:34.659 --> 00:05:37.173 haven't seen stuff on History Channel and things like that. 140 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:39.611 And so I guess sort of, 141 00:05:39.642 --> 00:05:39.798 yeah, 142 00:05:39.845 --> 00:05:41.986 I did end up doing exactly what I wanted to. 143 00:05:42.564 --> 00:05:44.642 I went to now defunct. 144 00:05:44.829 --> 00:05:45.689 Trinity College, 145 00:05:45.749 --> 00:05:48.249 Trinity International University in 146 00:05:48.589 --> 00:05:49.992 Deerfield. That's a sore spot for me. 147 00:05:49.993 --> 00:05:51.910 I don't feel great about the fact that that went away. 148 00:05:51.972 --> 00:05:53.574 A little bit of a canary in the coal mine, 149 00:05:53.589 --> 00:05:53.808 maybe. 150 00:05:54.308 --> 00:05:55.691 We can talk about that more if you want. 151 00:05:56.269 --> 00:05:56.433 Well, 152 00:05:56.792 --> 00:05:57.675 it is interesting, 153 00:05:57.753 --> 00:05:58.792 and our audience knows this. 154 00:05:58.832 --> 00:05:59.050 I mean, 155 00:05:59.074 --> 00:06:00.269 higher education is just, 156 00:06:00.535 --> 00:06:01.972 I think we're in a reset moment, 157 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:04.050 the way we understand higher education today. 158 00:06:04.207 --> 00:06:05.347 And I'd say that generally, 159 00:06:05.441 --> 00:06:07.394 not just biblical or theological education. 160 00:06:07.441 --> 00:06:08.175 I think it's just... 161 00:06:08.497 --> 00:06:09.498 The cost benefit, 162 00:06:09.618 --> 00:06:11.780 the public is asking hard questions about it, 163 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:14.745 and I'm not sure it's sustainable moving forward. 164 00:06:15.183 --> 00:06:17.987 And we're just kind of in this unique time of redefinition. 165 00:06:18.565 --> 00:06:25.511 And where I have hope is we're not serving students to go and become famous and make lots of money. 166 00:06:25.933 --> 00:06:28.417 We're training the next generation of church leaders. 167 00:06:28.933 --> 00:06:30.261 And the church is going to be here, 168 00:06:30.901 --> 00:06:32.667 and the church is always going to need leaders. 169 00:06:32.917 --> 00:06:36.261 So the work that we're involved with is always going to be needed. 170 00:06:36.620 --> 00:06:38.026 It may just look different. 171 00:06:38.161 --> 00:06:38.962 moving forward. 172 00:06:39.683 --> 00:06:44.347 It's a fascinating time to be alive and to be actually in this industry. 173 00:06:44.667 --> 00:06:45.308 But anyway, 174 00:06:45.589 --> 00:06:46.347 Trinity to close, 175 00:06:46.386 --> 00:06:48.292 that's where you did your undergrad. 176 00:06:48.792 --> 00:06:49.370 It was great. 177 00:06:49.589 --> 00:06:50.229 I really liked it. 178 00:06:50.230 --> 00:06:51.636 It was a wonderful experience. 179 00:06:52.198 --> 00:06:58.847 And so I did biblical studies and history and political science and philosophy there. 180 00:06:59.440 --> 00:07:02.847 Took as many classes as they would let me take for the time that I was paying for it. 181 00:07:03.472 --> 00:07:04.706 And that was a great experience. 182 00:07:04.707 --> 00:07:06.753 And I went to Ted's as well. 183 00:07:07.037 --> 00:07:08.118 On the other side of the street there, 184 00:07:08.139 --> 00:07:09.019 the same campus, 185 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:10.922 Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. 186 00:07:11.340 --> 00:07:13.883 I went to Nebraska at Kearney for 187 00:07:14.383 --> 00:07:15.809 History of Western Thought. 188 00:07:16.566 --> 00:07:20.832 More or less just customized my education to figure out how to do that, 189 00:07:20.934 --> 00:07:24.738 but do it myself without a bunch of producers. 190 00:07:24.754 --> 00:07:32.504 I kind of learned enough about how those shows work and everything to realize generally no one on the set knows the material. 191 00:07:32.957 --> 00:07:35.051 Maybe a person who knows the material, 192 00:07:35.098 --> 00:07:35.848 everybody else. 193 00:07:36.185 --> 00:07:37.387 This isn't really what they do. 194 00:07:38.107 --> 00:07:38.828 And as a result, 195 00:07:38.829 --> 00:07:39.607 a lot of those shows, 196 00:07:39.828 --> 00:07:40.088 you know, 197 00:07:40.350 --> 00:07:44.795 I think you've found this before you see one of those kind of programs that gets into your subject matter and you're going, 198 00:07:45.357 --> 00:07:46.779 you don't know what you're talking about. 199 00:07:46.795 --> 00:07:46.936 Like, 200 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:48.318 it's just not a, 201 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:50.459 I'm not mad because I know things and you don't. 202 00:07:50.936 --> 00:07:53.217 I'm irritated because it's a great story and you don't, 203 00:07:53.264 --> 00:07:54.342 you didn't even learn the story. 204 00:07:54.826 --> 00:07:58.795 Like now everybody thinks they know it and it's not that interesting because you just sold it bad. 205 00:07:59.154 --> 00:07:59.467 I don't know. 206 00:07:59.468 --> 00:08:00.686 I started kind of drifting that way. 207 00:08:00.732 --> 00:08:04.279 I've always liked video and writing and production stuff. 208 00:08:05.065 --> 00:08:05.465 Gradually, 209 00:08:05.485 --> 00:08:08.886 I started making more things that involved video. 210 00:08:08.966 --> 00:08:11.888 It was just to serve a church that I was working at. 211 00:08:11.907 --> 00:08:14.544 And a lot of people who didn't go to that church started watching. 212 00:08:15.028 --> 00:08:15.325 This is 213 00:08:15.825 --> 00:08:18.771 10, 11 years ago before this was a normal thing to do. 214 00:08:19.505 --> 00:08:20.052 After that, 215 00:08:20.411 --> 00:08:21.052 I realized, 216 00:08:21.067 --> 00:08:21.192 man, 217 00:08:21.193 --> 00:08:26.130 it'd be a lot more efficient if I did this more in a podcast format and had videos that supplemented from time to time. 218 00:08:26.755 --> 00:08:29.286 So what I do now for a living is 219 00:08:29.833 --> 00:08:33.271 I do a daily Bible podcast where I pick a book of the Bible. 220 00:08:33.881 --> 00:08:35.302 And it's kind of like drive time radio. 221 00:08:35.901 --> 00:08:36.641 I'm the co-host. 222 00:08:36.821 --> 00:08:37.780 The Bible is the host. 223 00:08:38.124 --> 00:08:38.823 We crack jokes. 224 00:08:38.824 --> 00:08:39.561 We have fun together. 225 00:08:40.303 --> 00:08:43.803 And we take just a little chunk every day out of the thing. 226 00:08:43.983 --> 00:08:45.366 I'm not the knower of things. 227 00:08:45.624 --> 00:08:48.663 I'm perfectly fine with learning on mic. 228 00:08:49.264 --> 00:08:52.913 All in the service of showing people that these stories are phenomenal. 229 00:08:52.991 --> 00:08:54.288 It's just amazing stuff here. 230 00:08:54.303 --> 00:08:56.319 Even in the parts of the Bible aren't explicitly narrative. 231 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:57.178 They're great stories. 232 00:08:57.819 --> 00:08:59.663 And you can do this. 233 00:09:00.272 --> 00:09:03.132 You don't have to go to school specifically for this to be. 234 00:09:03.289 --> 00:09:04.751 great at reading a text. 235 00:09:04.931 --> 00:09:06.972 You're way better interpreters than you imagine. 236 00:09:07.472 --> 00:09:09.917 You study interpretation and practice it all the time. 237 00:09:10.136 --> 00:09:12.460 We're just going to work on the Bible together with it and have fun. 238 00:09:12.616 --> 00:09:19.187 And then you will go back to whatever you're doing because I'm just some guy on the internet and we will have talked about a great story together. 239 00:09:19.624 --> 00:09:20.921 That is such a beautiful thing. 240 00:09:21.046 --> 00:09:27.171 And the thing I like about how you approach it is you don't avoid the difficult passages or sometimes we do read and 241 00:09:27.608 --> 00:09:30.515 I have a practice where I read through the scripture every year, 242 00:09:30.983 --> 00:09:32.483 and I do different versions of it. 243 00:09:32.645 --> 00:09:37.088 some years or I'll do chronological or whatever to kind of mix it up. 244 00:09:37.170 --> 00:09:37.330 But, 245 00:09:37.670 --> 00:09:37.889 you know, 246 00:09:37.912 --> 00:09:41.334 sometimes you are reading the scriptures and you're like kind of scratching your head like, 247 00:09:41.654 --> 00:09:41.936 okay, 248 00:09:42.732 --> 00:09:43.818 I know it's God's word, 249 00:09:43.998 --> 00:09:45.154 but what does this mean right here? 250 00:09:45.561 --> 00:09:46.576 I'm struggling a little bit. 251 00:09:46.897 --> 00:09:51.248 You make it so real to the listener and you engage in that conflict, 252 00:09:51.326 --> 00:09:51.561 right? 253 00:09:51.701 --> 00:09:53.232 That there is some sense of, 254 00:09:53.389 --> 00:09:53.623 okay, 255 00:09:54.014 --> 00:09:55.607 help me understand what's, 256 00:09:55.826 --> 00:09:59.248 and there's a context to it and there's a proper hermeneutic to understanding the word. 257 00:09:59.617 --> 00:10:04.123 And to the average lay person who has not gone to a Bible college or not gone to a seminary, 258 00:10:04.182 --> 00:10:06.865 they don't have necessarily those skill sets. 259 00:10:07.862 --> 00:10:08.523 front of mind, 260 00:10:08.883 --> 00:10:10.765 but you're helping the listener do that. 261 00:10:11.326 --> 00:10:11.765 I hope so. 262 00:10:12.088 --> 00:10:14.150 That's the value proposition right there. 263 00:10:14.748 --> 00:10:16.049 And if whatever you're doing, 264 00:10:16.330 --> 00:10:17.635 whether it is a podcast, 265 00:10:17.650 --> 00:10:18.650 a YouTube channel, 266 00:10:18.830 --> 00:10:19.752 a TV show, 267 00:10:19.838 --> 00:10:20.838 a book you're writing, 268 00:10:21.431 --> 00:10:22.517 a sermon you're giving, 269 00:10:22.533 --> 00:10:23.635 a church you're running, 270 00:10:23.853 --> 00:10:26.728 a Christian college you're operating, 271 00:10:26.916 --> 00:10:28.463 a class you are teaching, 272 00:10:29.041 --> 00:10:34.025 if you cannot clearly articulate what the value proposition is to the person on the other side, 273 00:10:34.494 --> 00:10:35.588 your thing is doomed. 274 00:10:35.954 --> 00:10:38.356 It may be propped up for a while with false money, 275 00:10:38.797 --> 00:10:39.518 legacy money, 276 00:10:39.897 --> 00:10:40.538 but it's doomed. 277 00:10:40.557 --> 00:10:45.541 Your value proposition has got to be stronger than the competing ones and clearer than the competing ones. 278 00:10:45.901 --> 00:10:46.065 Yeah. 279 00:10:46.362 --> 00:10:47.463 And I resonate with that. 280 00:10:47.502 --> 00:10:52.323 And so many of the listeners do because I've said it probably too many times on the show that I draw a distinct, 281 00:10:52.666 --> 00:10:58.041 like we talk in terms of distinctives when we really should be talking in terms of value proposition. 282 00:10:58.182 --> 00:11:01.463 Just because you're different from your competition or different, 283 00:11:02.026 --> 00:11:03.666 everybody can make that claim. 284 00:11:03.963 --> 00:11:05.229 Talk about the value you. 285 00:11:05.314 --> 00:11:05.775 provide. 286 00:11:06.155 --> 00:11:07.316 And for higher education, 287 00:11:07.416 --> 00:11:08.377 if you think about it, 288 00:11:08.398 --> 00:11:09.898 think about the, 289 00:11:10.359 --> 00:11:15.726 I call it the eternal fall in promotional materials of colleges where the images, 290 00:11:15.804 --> 00:11:16.304 the looks, 291 00:11:16.343 --> 00:11:17.062 the buildings, 292 00:11:17.382 --> 00:11:18.390 beautiful buildings, 293 00:11:18.468 --> 00:11:25.671 but it's always in a fall context with fall colors and the right mix of students with the pictures and whatever else. 294 00:11:25.859 --> 00:11:28.640 You've now described every single college in North America. 295 00:11:29.102 --> 00:11:30.524 And especially in our sector, 296 00:11:30.704 --> 00:11:38.255 small classes and chapel every day and a great dining facility and great athletic program and great events on the weekend. 297 00:11:38.731 --> 00:11:39.989 Our teachers really care. 298 00:11:40.450 --> 00:11:41.411 Exactly. 299 00:11:41.637 --> 00:11:41.856 Really? 300 00:11:41.934 --> 00:11:42.051 Well, 301 00:11:42.075 --> 00:11:45.161 I want to go to the one college where the teachers really care, 302 00:11:45.239 --> 00:11:47.723 unlike all the other ones where they don't. 303 00:11:48.067 --> 00:11:48.223 Now, 304 00:11:48.645 --> 00:11:49.426 I'm hearing you on this, 305 00:11:49.505 --> 00:11:50.739 but at the most fundamental level, 306 00:11:50.786 --> 00:11:51.458 what you're saying, 307 00:11:52.239 --> 00:11:53.505 this is such a basic truth. 308 00:11:53.583 --> 00:11:56.442 And it's so important in everyone who's doing things that. 309 00:11:56.754 --> 00:12:00.299 are impressive and that you or your listeners like are getting this right. 310 00:12:00.998 --> 00:12:03.279 When you tell someone about your distinctives, 311 00:12:03.482 --> 00:12:04.779 you're talking about yourself. 312 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:07.021 When you talk about a value proposition, 313 00:12:07.060 --> 00:12:09.427 you're talking about them and what they get. 314 00:12:10.029 --> 00:12:10.404 And look, 315 00:12:10.490 --> 00:12:22.232 there was a time where we could expect everyone to come to the throne of biblical knowledge at our institutions or our great fancy church with our great building and be so happy to be there and bask in our distinctives. 316 00:12:22.935 --> 00:12:24.216 But that is not now. 317 00:12:24.904 --> 00:12:25.357 You are 318 00:12:25.802 --> 00:12:31.504 tenaciously competing with a bajillion people who want those eyeballs, 319 00:12:31.543 --> 00:12:34.062 who need those clicks to feed their families. 320 00:12:34.820 --> 00:12:35.640 It's a click economy. 321 00:12:36.062 --> 00:12:36.906 Everyone lives in it. 322 00:12:37.047 --> 00:12:38.844 Even if you don't like your smartphone, 323 00:12:38.984 --> 00:12:40.367 you still live in it. 324 00:12:41.125 --> 00:12:43.648 This is the term that I use when I'm talking with people about this. 325 00:12:44.242 --> 00:12:45.586 You're fighting for poop time. 326 00:12:45.851 --> 00:12:46.586 And here's what I mean. 327 00:12:47.367 --> 00:12:50.008 You get 10 minutes where you get to shut the door. 328 00:12:50.289 --> 00:12:51.289 No one can bother you. 329 00:12:51.304 --> 00:12:53.445 It's socially unacceptable to harass you. 330 00:12:53.914 --> 00:12:55.273 And you have a smartphone. 331 00:12:55.930 --> 00:12:59.852 Your true heart of hearts really comes out in that time. 332 00:13:00.395 --> 00:13:11.688 What you really want to put your brain on and think about for that one moment in life that we haven't cluttered with everybody else and social expectations, 333 00:13:12.431 --> 00:13:13.415 that's what you're going to do. 334 00:13:14.009 --> 00:13:19.306 Is your thing good enough and is your value proposition clear enough to win poop time? 335 00:13:19.352 --> 00:13:19.571 Again, 336 00:13:19.618 --> 00:13:20.571 feel free to delete that. 337 00:13:20.618 --> 00:13:21.852 I understand that it's crass, 338 00:13:21.931 --> 00:13:23.290 but it's true and it's helpful. 339 00:13:23.337 --> 00:13:24.462 Absolutely. 340 00:13:24.806 --> 00:13:25.399 Absolutely. 341 00:13:25.710 --> 00:13:26.970 The example that I've used, 342 00:13:26.990 --> 00:13:28.970 and it's so true because it makes it more tangible, 343 00:13:29.531 --> 00:13:29.752 is 344 00:13:30.509 --> 00:13:36.314 I will drive by three McDonald's where I can buy a cup of coffee for $1.99 or 345 00:13:36.814 --> 00:13:43.056 I choose to pass three McDonald's and pay four times as much to go to Starbucks to get a Starbucks coffee. 346 00:13:43.494 --> 00:13:43.791 Why? 347 00:13:44.009 --> 00:13:45.775 Because I have put the, 348 00:13:46.072 --> 00:13:47.275 whether it's valid or not, 349 00:13:48.212 --> 00:13:51.509 I place a higher value on that experience, 350 00:13:51.619 --> 00:13:52.103 product, 351 00:13:52.556 --> 00:13:52.978 whatever, 352 00:13:53.275 --> 00:13:53.962 that I'm willing. 353 00:13:54.198 --> 00:13:56.401 to drive further and pay more for. 354 00:13:56.860 --> 00:13:59.465 The opposite is a race to the bottom. 355 00:13:59.664 --> 00:14:00.844 If you're about distinctives, 356 00:14:00.845 --> 00:14:01.246 it's about, 357 00:14:01.285 --> 00:14:01.465 well, 358 00:14:01.965 --> 00:14:02.543 at this point, 359 00:14:02.567 --> 00:14:05.309 it's how can I get the cheapest since you're all the same? 360 00:14:05.371 --> 00:14:09.176 How can I get the cheapest product of that experience? 361 00:14:09.692 --> 00:14:11.035 Or from the producer's side, 362 00:14:11.739 --> 00:14:21.270 how can I find the best advertising hack where I can get my message in front of people ultra cheap for a little while to... 363 00:14:21.558 --> 00:14:24.020 artificially create the impression of success. 364 00:14:24.802 --> 00:14:26.063 And it doesn't last, 365 00:14:26.064 --> 00:14:26.782 it doesn't work. 366 00:14:26.864 --> 00:14:29.630 So this is a mean time in that regard. 367 00:14:29.825 --> 00:14:30.083 Also, 368 00:14:30.169 --> 00:14:36.310 it's very exciting because the value proposition has got to be strengthened across the board. 369 00:14:37.013 --> 00:14:40.083 So let me ask you a question because you're around this way more than I am. 370 00:14:41.442 --> 00:14:45.802 Is that part of the equation of what's gone wrong for a lot of 371 00:14:46.630 --> 00:14:48.083 Christian higher ed seminaries, 372 00:14:48.145 --> 00:14:48.817 Bible colleges, 373 00:14:48.849 --> 00:14:49.239 et cetera, 374 00:14:49.349 --> 00:14:49.645 right now? 375 00:14:50.505 --> 00:14:51.067 Would you say that- 376 00:14:51.474 --> 00:14:58.522 They don't know how to articulate the value proposition or the value proposition isn't very good or am I barking up the wrong tree? 377 00:14:58.800 --> 00:14:58.921 No, 378 00:14:59.101 --> 00:14:59.944 I think you've nailed it. 379 00:15:00.163 --> 00:15:01.421 This is the core of it because 380 00:15:01.843 --> 00:15:07.733 I do believe our institutions have a value proposition that they can make. 381 00:15:08.218 --> 00:15:09.624 They need to learn how. 382 00:15:10.274 --> 00:15:11.034 to do that. 383 00:15:11.594 --> 00:15:16.934 We get sloppy with language and turn what are really value propositions, 384 00:15:16.935 --> 00:15:18.856 or we're trying to state a value proposition, 385 00:15:18.918 --> 00:15:20.840 but we do it by stating distinctives. 386 00:15:21.738 --> 00:15:22.574 Right or wrong, 387 00:15:22.777 --> 00:15:25.215 we're in a consumer world. 388 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:26.879 We're all consumers. 389 00:15:27.520 --> 00:15:29.660 And if we pay something, 390 00:15:29.723 --> 00:15:34.566 we have an expectation that we're going to get something out of what we're paying. 391 00:15:34.598 --> 00:15:35.863 That's the value, 392 00:15:36.363 --> 00:15:37.113 that's the trade, 393 00:15:37.176 --> 00:15:37.426 right? 394 00:15:37.473 --> 00:15:39.145 That's if I'm going to give X. 395 00:15:39.522 --> 00:15:41.104 And I want to expect why. 396 00:15:41.684 --> 00:15:42.746 And people bristle. 397 00:15:42.766 --> 00:15:43.906 I think in higher education, 398 00:15:43.907 --> 00:15:49.969 we bristle at that because we don't want to boil it down to a transaction. 399 00:15:50.156 --> 00:15:52.274 And that's really what consumerism is. 400 00:15:52.414 --> 00:15:53.438 It's a transaction. 401 00:15:53.977 --> 00:15:54.578 And I get that. 402 00:15:54.656 --> 00:15:55.672 I fully understand. 403 00:15:55.703 --> 00:15:57.500 And I think that's where some of the pushback comes. 404 00:15:57.516 --> 00:15:57.672 Like, 405 00:15:57.719 --> 00:15:59.125 we don't want to contribute to that. 406 00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:00.359 We're education. 407 00:16:00.438 --> 00:16:01.688 We're something different. 408 00:16:01.766 --> 00:16:03.047 But the reality is when we, 409 00:16:03.766 --> 00:16:04.000 you know, 410 00:16:04.219 --> 00:16:09.047 we're living this from with the federal government right now of saying basically making the direct. 411 00:16:09.186 --> 00:16:11.469 correlation from college to job. 412 00:16:11.949 --> 00:16:12.789 Go to college, 413 00:16:13.228 --> 00:16:13.791 get a job. 414 00:16:14.510 --> 00:16:15.713 And companies are saying, 415 00:16:16.271 --> 00:16:16.994 hold on a second, 416 00:16:17.053 --> 00:16:18.174 don't spend your money. 417 00:16:18.494 --> 00:16:20.018 If the job is what you want, 418 00:16:20.635 --> 00:16:21.455 we'll train you. 419 00:16:21.916 --> 00:16:25.775 And there's a whole movement out of tear the paper ceiling and others that are saying, 420 00:16:26.228 --> 00:16:26.947 skip college, 421 00:16:27.619 --> 00:16:29.182 go right into the workforce. 422 00:16:29.807 --> 00:16:31.541 And my pushback to that is, 423 00:16:31.666 --> 00:16:31.853 whoa, 424 00:16:32.072 --> 00:16:32.916 hold on a second. 425 00:16:33.572 --> 00:16:34.666 It's not a transaction. 426 00:16:34.697 --> 00:16:36.807 There's more to the college experience. 427 00:16:37.410 --> 00:16:39.433 where you're learning emotional intelligence, 428 00:16:39.472 --> 00:16:40.894 where you're growing spiritually, 429 00:16:40.974 --> 00:16:46.001 where you're learning critical thinking skills so that you're learning a biblical worldview of understanding, 430 00:16:46.040 --> 00:16:46.259 okay, 431 00:16:46.282 --> 00:16:49.524 the word of God has something to say about everything that I experience in life. 432 00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:53.884 How do I use the tools then in order to live my life, 433 00:16:53.962 --> 00:16:54.149 right? 434 00:16:54.227 --> 00:16:55.868 That's the value proposition, 435 00:16:56.165 --> 00:17:04.571 but we have to speak it in such a way that's embedded in a consumeristic world that we live because that's how we're wired. 436 00:17:04.906 --> 00:17:09.891 And so we have to speak that language knowing that we have an incredible product that we can deliver on. 437 00:17:10.730 --> 00:17:11.152 Wonderful. 438 00:17:11.652 --> 00:17:11.871 I mean, 439 00:17:11.894 --> 00:17:13.113 that's spot on. 440 00:17:13.137 --> 00:17:14.574 And I think you're making tons of sense. 441 00:17:14.575 --> 00:17:16.801 And I think you just benefited everybody who's listening. 442 00:17:17.098 --> 00:17:18.637 I don't know that I would call this pushback, 443 00:17:18.660 --> 00:17:19.918 but maybe a slight reframing. 444 00:17:20.379 --> 00:17:20.504 Yeah. 445 00:17:20.762 --> 00:17:21.621 To the people who would say, 446 00:17:21.683 --> 00:17:21.824 well, 447 00:17:21.825 --> 00:17:22.043 that's, 448 00:17:22.137 --> 00:17:22.387 you know, 449 00:17:22.918 --> 00:17:23.652 that's cheap. 450 00:17:23.683 --> 00:17:24.746 You're bastardizing it. 451 00:17:24.980 --> 00:17:26.433 That's consumerism. 452 00:17:27.308 --> 00:17:27.465 Well, 453 00:17:27.574 --> 00:17:29.168 I would say I'm not so sure I agree with that. 454 00:17:29.355 --> 00:17:30.652 I'm not ready to concede that. 455 00:17:31.293 --> 00:17:32.777 Everything is a negotiation. 456 00:17:33.512 --> 00:17:34.152 John Locke. 457 00:17:34.458 --> 00:17:35.979 thought everything was a negotiation. 458 00:17:36.278 --> 00:17:43.198 The fact that there are two people within who exist within the possibility of encountering each other. 459 00:17:43.276 --> 00:17:47.261 So like on the same planet means that you are in a negotiation. 460 00:17:47.300 --> 00:17:48.862 I read a book called Getting the Yes. 461 00:17:49.222 --> 00:17:51.284 I hated the opening chapters. 462 00:17:51.285 --> 00:17:51.940 It's a great book, 463 00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:52.815 legendary book. 464 00:17:52.847 --> 00:17:53.003 I mean, 465 00:17:53.019 --> 00:17:53.862 this isn't like some little, 466 00:17:54.362 --> 00:17:54.597 you know, 467 00:17:55.003 --> 00:17:57.003 recent airport book kind of thing. 468 00:17:57.269 --> 00:17:57.644 You know, 469 00:17:57.645 --> 00:17:59.644 this is a book that has quite the track record. 470 00:17:59.645 --> 00:18:00.222 And I read the book. 471 00:18:00.738 --> 00:18:03.341 And the opening thesis of the book is everything's a negotiation. 472 00:18:03.360 --> 00:18:04.981 And I was Christian offended over it. 473 00:18:05.501 --> 00:18:07.766 And I had to talk about this book on a show. 474 00:18:07.864 --> 00:18:11.227 And so I started to get my hackles up and get agitated. 475 00:18:11.407 --> 00:18:13.727 The same kind of thinking that you were just articulating, 476 00:18:13.774 --> 00:18:13.915 like, 477 00:18:13.930 --> 00:18:14.048 no, 478 00:18:14.188 --> 00:18:14.915 it's dead. 479 00:18:15.009 --> 00:18:17.462 You're cheapening everything down to consumerism. 480 00:18:17.493 --> 00:18:18.790 The longer the book went on, 481 00:18:19.571 --> 00:18:23.180 the more I failed to find good counter examples. 482 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:25.524 It's really just about how you frame the word. 483 00:18:26.165 --> 00:18:28.071 This is a negotiation between you and me. 484 00:18:28.180 --> 00:18:29.946 We're in a negotiation right now for a... 485 00:18:30.470 --> 00:18:32.531 for both of us to stay on the conversation. 486 00:18:33.094 --> 00:18:36.394 It's going great and you're likable and friendly and you're saying smart things. 487 00:18:36.976 --> 00:18:38.996 So the negotiation is going wonderfully. 488 00:18:39.418 --> 00:18:42.058 You're at least from the faces you're making at me, 489 00:18:42.363 --> 00:18:44.301 not that irritated with what I'm doing. 490 00:18:44.660 --> 00:18:47.832 So the negotiation is going well and the conversation is continuing. 491 00:18:47.894 --> 00:18:48.160 Great. 492 00:18:48.582 --> 00:18:51.097 We're also negotiating right now with the people who are listening. 493 00:18:51.613 --> 00:18:52.691 There are other things happening. 494 00:18:52.754 --> 00:18:53.551 They're working out. 495 00:18:54.166 --> 00:19:00.452 They've got a stack of books they need to read on their desk and they're eyeballing it every time they get a little bored or we go on a little too long. 496 00:19:00.831 --> 00:19:02.495 Or they have it on speed in the background. 497 00:19:03.573 --> 00:19:10.979 They should listen to it faster than we can actually talk because the people who are going to be in your audience are smart enough that they can internalize it at 1.25 very easily. 498 00:19:11.198 --> 00:19:11.526 Yeah. 499 00:19:11.776 --> 00:19:12.385 The point is, 500 00:19:13.245 --> 00:19:14.448 it's all a negotiation. 501 00:19:15.432 --> 00:19:17.463 And why is that bad? 502 00:19:18.135 --> 00:19:19.729 Everybody knows the basic. 503 00:19:20.342 --> 00:19:21.624 fundamental values of Jesus. 504 00:19:21.643 --> 00:19:22.745 We talk about them all the time. 505 00:19:22.746 --> 00:19:24.085 We use them as political cudgels. 506 00:19:24.186 --> 00:19:24.507 Love. 507 00:19:24.948 --> 00:19:25.167 Yep, 508 00:19:25.405 --> 00:19:26.448 that is in there. 509 00:19:27.108 --> 00:19:27.710 More than that, 510 00:19:27.729 --> 00:19:32.218 he talks about loyalty and obedience and love for his father and the kingdom. 511 00:19:32.272 --> 00:19:35.077 Those are his biggest values by sure number of times talked about. 512 00:19:35.639 --> 00:19:36.155 But love. 513 00:19:36.718 --> 00:19:36.874 Yeah, 514 00:19:37.061 --> 00:19:37.374 awesome. 515 00:19:37.405 --> 00:19:38.483 That should come up a lot. 516 00:19:38.546 --> 00:19:39.061 And it does. 517 00:19:39.108 --> 00:19:40.436 It's a big value of Jesus. 518 00:19:40.983 --> 00:19:42.186 Obedience to God. 519 00:19:42.421 --> 00:19:43.952 That's a really big value. 520 00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:45.530 But here's the one no one 521 00:19:45.786 --> 00:19:47.107 ever brings up on this list, 522 00:19:47.148 --> 00:19:50.392 but I challenge you to go count up the number of mentions or allusions to it. 523 00:19:50.810 --> 00:19:51.791 This is a top four, 524 00:19:51.873 --> 00:19:56.755 top five value of the Bible and of Jesus of Nazareth and its shrewdness. 525 00:19:57.099 --> 00:19:57.701 Matthew 10, 526 00:19:57.779 --> 00:20:00.318 he sends those disciples out with the lesser commission. 527 00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:01.060 Behold, 528 00:20:01.083 --> 00:20:03.568 I'm sending you out like sheep among wolves. 529 00:20:04.037 --> 00:20:06.287 He starts by framing the situation they're in. 530 00:20:06.943 --> 00:20:08.115 This is complicated. 531 00:20:08.698 --> 00:20:09.579 I understand that. 532 00:20:09.939 --> 00:20:11.961 This is what you're going to need to do to make that work. 533 00:20:12.060 --> 00:20:12.681 Two things. 534 00:20:13.201 --> 00:20:16.924 You're going to need to be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. 535 00:20:17.603 --> 00:20:19.869 It has been fashionable in American Christianity, 536 00:20:20.111 --> 00:20:21.510 in biblical higher education, 537 00:20:21.908 --> 00:20:25.720 for a long time to imagine that shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves is a slider, 538 00:20:26.002 --> 00:20:26.892 a single spectrum. 539 00:20:27.517 --> 00:20:32.345 And you don't want to be too much of either because balance is the value of our age. 540 00:20:32.346 --> 00:20:33.595 You want to be balanced. 541 00:20:34.095 --> 00:20:34.689 So you want to be. 542 00:20:35.182 --> 00:20:36.224 A little bit innocent, 543 00:20:36.225 --> 00:20:38.806 but obviously also morally horrible sometimes. 544 00:20:39.208 --> 00:20:39.446 Also, 545 00:20:39.447 --> 00:20:40.368 you want to be shrewd, 546 00:20:40.388 --> 00:20:42.950 but also kind of a rube sometimes. 547 00:20:43.091 --> 00:20:43.474 What? 548 00:20:44.349 --> 00:20:44.489 No, 549 00:20:44.849 --> 00:20:47.177 the instruction is there are two sliders. 550 00:20:47.513 --> 00:20:48.778 Be 100% 551 00:20:48.872 --> 00:20:49.395 on both. 552 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:54.403 You're supposed to be maximum innocent and maximum shrewd at the same time. 553 00:20:54.763 --> 00:20:55.669 Why do you need shrewdness? 554 00:20:55.684 --> 00:20:57.059 Because you're in a negotiation. 555 00:20:57.669 --> 00:21:00.622 You're in a negotiation with wolves. 556 00:21:01.122 --> 00:21:02.388 Time is a wolf. 557 00:21:03.106 --> 00:21:04.513 The world is a wolf. 558 00:21:05.022 --> 00:21:06.183 You're up against something very, 559 00:21:06.263 --> 00:21:07.003 very difficult. 560 00:21:07.025 --> 00:21:10.609 And so when I hear Christians with the best of intentions say, 561 00:21:11.128 --> 00:21:12.327 I don't want to be like that. 562 00:21:12.628 --> 00:21:12.769 Yeah, 563 00:21:12.788 --> 00:21:13.554 it's worldly. 564 00:21:14.148 --> 00:21:14.929 What they're saying is, 565 00:21:15.335 --> 00:21:16.952 I don't want to do what Jesus said. 566 00:21:17.077 --> 00:21:30.101 I don't want to be strategic and thoughtful and shrewd about how best to use my life energy and the five coins I got handed by the master to try to get five coins back out of the deal and give it to him. 567 00:21:30.507 --> 00:21:32.835 What I hear when I hear Christians say, 568 00:21:33.270 --> 00:21:34.772 I don't want to be shrewd is, 569 00:21:35.373 --> 00:21:35.953 hey, 570 00:21:36.033 --> 00:21:37.295 I know you're a harsh master. 571 00:21:37.373 --> 00:21:38.596 You reap where you don't sow. 572 00:21:38.674 --> 00:21:40.057 So I took that coin you gave me. 573 00:21:40.557 --> 00:21:42.139 I put it in the ground. 574 00:21:42.701 --> 00:21:43.459 It's a little dirty, 575 00:21:43.498 --> 00:21:45.561 but I think you'll find it's all still there. 576 00:21:45.865 --> 00:21:49.279 I did nothing with it because of my misunderstanding of your character. 577 00:21:49.967 --> 00:21:50.561 There we go. 578 00:21:51.373 --> 00:21:53.045 That is losing thinking. 579 00:21:53.795 --> 00:21:55.326 It is the wrong strategy. 580 00:21:55.404 --> 00:21:56.779 It's the wrong approach. 581 00:21:57.295 --> 00:21:58.373 Shrewdness is hard. 582 00:21:58.842 --> 00:21:59.670 You're going to miss things. 583 00:21:59.671 --> 00:22:01.232 You're going to embarrass yourself. 584 00:22:01.706 --> 00:22:07.172 You're going to try to figure out how to say what the other person gets and do a good job negotiating alongside them. 585 00:22:07.750 --> 00:22:08.691 And it's not going to work. 586 00:22:08.895 --> 00:22:10.031 And you're going to feel dumb. 587 00:22:10.070 --> 00:22:11.414 I feel this all the time. 588 00:22:12.016 --> 00:22:12.859 But we have the truest, 589 00:22:12.914 --> 00:22:14.000 realest thing ever. 590 00:22:14.961 --> 00:22:16.383 You got to understand the moment you're in. 591 00:22:16.617 --> 00:22:16.984 You got to, 592 00:22:17.141 --> 00:22:18.164 like Paul understood it. 593 00:22:19.164 --> 00:22:20.242 You got to be shrewd about it. 594 00:22:20.930 --> 00:22:22.664 That was a little long and that was a little worked up. 595 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:24.430 I feel like now I should shut up for 10 minutes. 596 00:22:24.633 --> 00:22:24.742 No, 597 00:22:25.992 --> 00:22:26.430 not at all. 598 00:22:26.773 --> 00:22:27.945 I think it's spot on. 599 00:22:28.711 --> 00:22:30.195 And go back to what we're talking about, 600 00:22:30.258 --> 00:22:30.492 you know, 601 00:22:30.570 --> 00:22:30.711 is... 602 00:22:31.402 --> 00:22:32.303 with higher education, 603 00:22:32.323 --> 00:22:33.505 with biblical higher education, 604 00:22:33.563 --> 00:22:34.825 like what's at play here? 605 00:22:34.826 --> 00:22:35.927 And I think you've nailed it. 606 00:22:36.009 --> 00:22:38.387 And I think we need to boldly step into the space. 607 00:22:38.430 --> 00:22:39.813 I think it's a golden opportunity. 608 00:22:39.852 --> 00:22:43.813 I don't think we've had an opportunity like we have with where the world is today, 609 00:22:43.891 --> 00:22:45.860 with how connected the world today is. 610 00:22:46.415 --> 00:22:47.516 We know who we serve. 611 00:22:47.594 --> 00:22:48.954 We know who wins in the end. 612 00:22:48.985 --> 00:22:50.501 We know so much about it. 613 00:22:50.548 --> 00:22:54.204 And God has called us to be stewards and has given us resource. 614 00:22:54.219 --> 00:22:55.938 And it is our responsibility, 615 00:22:56.704 --> 00:22:57.969 not just a suggestion. 616 00:22:57.985 --> 00:23:01.173 It's our responsibility to invest those resources is 617 00:23:01.178 --> 00:23:06.205 for return because we know that someday the master will come back and we'll say, 618 00:23:06.904 --> 00:23:07.185 all right, 619 00:23:07.345 --> 00:23:08.103 so what'd you do with it? 620 00:23:08.646 --> 00:23:10.369 And if we don't have a response, 621 00:23:10.370 --> 00:23:11.431 if I don't have a response, 622 00:23:11.432 --> 00:23:13.791 and that's how I view what I do, 623 00:23:13.892 --> 00:23:17.814 and I want our colleges and our people to view it the same way. 624 00:23:18.408 --> 00:23:22.580 This is the time to step up in profound ways. 625 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:28.377 And look how God has used higher education in modern days to spark revival. 626 00:23:28.861 --> 00:23:30.611 And I think about our... 627 00:23:31.270 --> 00:23:36.156 70,000 plus students that we have on our campuses who feel called. 628 00:23:36.235 --> 00:23:38.699 They don't necessarily know what God has called them to, 629 00:23:39.317 --> 00:23:43.145 but they feel called and they have that sense of calling on their life. 630 00:23:43.606 --> 00:23:46.246 And they're at our institutions trying to figure it out. 631 00:23:46.442 --> 00:23:46.824 Man, 632 00:23:47.199 --> 00:23:55.699 what an opportunity we have to engage with them so that they can be the full potential of what God has created them to be. 633 00:23:56.626 --> 00:24:00.950 I think we're moments away from incredible revival in this country and in this world. 634 00:24:01.571 --> 00:24:03.775 And for whatever reason, 635 00:24:03.776 --> 00:24:04.716 the way God does it, 636 00:24:04.911 --> 00:24:07.333 He uses us to accomplish His work. 637 00:24:07.435 --> 00:24:09.200 And so let's step into it and let's do it. 638 00:24:09.763 --> 00:24:18.888 Something that stood out to me from our two interactions at those two events was that your ratio of humility to influence is pretty remarkable. 639 00:24:19.622 --> 00:24:23.294 You're not going to come on this program for 100 episodes and... 640 00:24:24.022 --> 00:24:32.348 Use somebody else as an excuse to articulate your vision because you're humble and you're going to let the other person run their mouth for 10 minutes straight like I just did. 641 00:24:32.973 --> 00:24:33.129 But 642 00:24:33.473 --> 00:24:39.418 I genuinely am asking you this because I want to know and because I want somebody to give you permission to say your thing. 643 00:24:39.778 --> 00:24:40.012 All right, 644 00:24:40.013 --> 00:24:43.043 you say it's time to step up practically. 645 00:24:43.778 --> 00:24:44.418 What does it look like? 646 00:24:44.419 --> 00:24:49.606 What are the three big things that you would love to see institutions, 647 00:24:49.731 --> 00:24:50.590 professors, 648 00:24:50.653 --> 00:24:52.824 administration do right now? 649 00:24:53.402 --> 00:24:56.084 Top of the list is to put egos aside. 650 00:24:56.426 --> 00:24:57.545 In higher education, 651 00:24:57.607 --> 00:24:59.529 we have so siloed everything. 652 00:25:00.150 --> 00:25:01.228 Going back to the distinctive, 653 00:25:01.252 --> 00:25:02.728 this is our statement of faith. 654 00:25:02.775 --> 00:25:04.275 This is our tradition. 655 00:25:04.353 --> 00:25:05.713 This is how we do things. 656 00:25:05.775 --> 00:25:15.181 We've theologized methodology beyond what is appropriate and raised how we do things to such a level that nobody else does it like we do. 657 00:25:15.806 --> 00:25:20.291 So we're going to go to our dying breath doing it the way we've done it. 658 00:25:20.869 --> 00:25:22.056 I'm overstating it. 659 00:25:22.538 --> 00:25:23.899 for purpose to say, 660 00:25:24.780 --> 00:25:25.841 we're not alone in this. 661 00:25:26.001 --> 00:25:31.870 We've got to pull down those walls and we've got to figure out ways that we can share resources. 662 00:25:32.089 --> 00:25:33.448 We can look at efficiencies. 663 00:25:34.167 --> 00:25:35.933 All of our colleges have registrars. 664 00:25:36.034 --> 00:25:37.573 They have financial aid officers. 665 00:25:37.597 --> 00:25:38.675 They have bookkeepers. 666 00:25:39.097 --> 00:25:40.222 They have food service. 667 00:25:40.269 --> 00:25:43.815 They have a lot of services that they're all doing themselves. 668 00:25:44.300 --> 00:25:45.565 I think moving forward, 669 00:25:45.878 --> 00:25:47.097 we need to be thinking about, 670 00:25:47.144 --> 00:25:47.284 look, 671 00:25:47.362 --> 00:25:50.378 how can we move into a shared service environment where 672 00:25:51.170 --> 00:25:56.894 Instead of just having our own registrar or our own financial aid or our own fill in the blank, 673 00:25:57.495 --> 00:26:00.058 how do we create a model to make this more efficient? 674 00:26:00.542 --> 00:26:01.862 And I think that's what the future is. 675 00:26:01.863 --> 00:26:04.683 So top of the list is realizing we can't do it alone. 676 00:26:04.722 --> 00:26:05.581 We need each other. 677 00:26:06.144 --> 00:26:08.066 And higher education has been, 678 00:26:08.472 --> 00:26:08.581 hey, 679 00:26:08.987 --> 00:26:09.831 we're the experts. 680 00:26:10.034 --> 00:26:11.644 So don't tell us what to do. 681 00:26:11.753 --> 00:26:12.878 We're going to do it ourselves. 682 00:26:13.284 --> 00:26:15.909 And we need to kind of shed some of that and realize, 683 00:26:15.956 --> 00:26:16.081 no, 684 00:26:16.128 --> 00:26:16.472 we're. 685 00:26:16.606 --> 00:26:17.827 We're actually in this together. 686 00:26:17.887 --> 00:26:20.110 And that's the ethos that we're trying to create. 687 00:26:20.111 --> 00:26:23.714 And I think successfully within ABHE is we're not competitors. 688 00:26:23.792 --> 00:26:25.073 We're all in this for the kingdom. 689 00:26:25.378 --> 00:26:28.581 So how do we figure out how to work together to make this happen? 690 00:26:29.057 --> 00:26:31.003 Second thing I'd say is it's a tension. 691 00:26:31.057 --> 00:26:33.339 I don't see it as an either or situation. 692 00:26:33.340 --> 00:26:36.526 We need to live in the tension of theological differences, 693 00:26:36.620 --> 00:26:37.432 recognizing that, 694 00:26:37.479 --> 00:26:37.620 look, 695 00:26:38.370 --> 00:26:40.573 there are certain things that we cannot budge on, 696 00:26:41.026 --> 00:26:45.120 and we're going to go to the mat and be adamant that we can't budge on these things. 697 00:26:45.646 --> 00:26:50.691 But recognizing that there are tier one and tier two and tier three theological issues, 698 00:26:51.112 --> 00:26:56.179 that sometimes we've taken tier two and three theological issues and raised them to tier one, 699 00:26:56.554 --> 00:26:57.796 and that's become a block. 700 00:26:58.140 --> 00:27:03.062 So how do we not lose our distinctive of theological conviction, 701 00:27:03.202 --> 00:27:05.562 which I think is a distinctive among our group, 702 00:27:06.405 --> 00:27:08.952 without watering elements down? 703 00:27:09.155 --> 00:27:10.609 How do we navigate through that? 704 00:27:11.109 --> 00:27:13.827 And the third thing that I'd say is we just got to get creative. 705 00:27:14.015 --> 00:27:14.234 I'm a 706 00:27:14.378 --> 00:27:16.200 big guy with means and ends. 707 00:27:16.820 --> 00:27:17.681 Ends don't change. 708 00:27:18.181 --> 00:27:19.302 We know what our end is. 709 00:27:19.482 --> 00:27:22.724 We're called to love Christ and serve him. 710 00:27:22.802 --> 00:27:26.591 And we have the great commission that God has called us to go and make disciples. 711 00:27:26.592 --> 00:27:27.927 And we have the creation mandate. 712 00:27:28.130 --> 00:27:32.818 So we pull a lot from scripture that says we have a pretty clear what we need to do. 713 00:27:32.959 --> 00:27:34.099 All of those things are ends. 714 00:27:34.693 --> 00:27:37.099 We need to hold our means very loosely. 715 00:27:37.474 --> 00:27:42.084 And what may work in one generation may not necessarily work in another generation. 716 00:27:42.130 --> 00:27:43.474 So how do we figure out just... 717 00:27:43.574 --> 00:27:44.994 different ways of doing things. 718 00:27:45.634 --> 00:27:46.835 There's a saying that I love. 719 00:27:46.975 --> 00:27:47.956 I picked it up somewhere. 720 00:27:48.155 --> 00:27:49.835 I'm sure some author wrote it somewhere, 721 00:27:50.237 --> 00:27:52.057 but fail forward fast. 722 00:27:53.018 --> 00:27:53.698 We're going to fail, 723 00:27:54.097 --> 00:27:56.440 but how do we learn from those mistakes? 724 00:27:57.120 --> 00:28:01.956 And then how do we move on and do it so that we do it in a quick fashion? 725 00:28:02.175 --> 00:28:04.112 And one of the things about higher education, 726 00:28:04.143 --> 00:28:07.659 we don't do things quickly and we don't take away things. 727 00:28:07.722 --> 00:28:09.034 We like to add programs. 728 00:28:09.035 --> 00:28:09.659 We like to add. 729 00:28:09.782 --> 00:28:10.623 things to our plate, 730 00:28:10.624 --> 00:28:12.465 but we don't necessarily take things away. 731 00:28:12.504 --> 00:28:15.387 So how do we become agile and recognize, 732 00:28:15.429 --> 00:28:15.648 okay, 733 00:28:16.047 --> 00:28:16.629 that worked, 734 00:28:17.371 --> 00:28:18.453 or it worked for a season, 735 00:28:19.031 --> 00:28:19.812 or we tried it, 736 00:28:19.875 --> 00:28:21.015 but it didn't really work. 737 00:28:21.773 --> 00:28:22.031 Okay. 738 00:28:22.758 --> 00:28:26.523 What lessons did we learn and how do we use that to fuel us forward? 739 00:28:26.804 --> 00:28:28.023 That comes top of mind. 740 00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:29.601 That's what I'm most passionate about. 741 00:28:29.664 --> 00:28:32.023 And the thing I love is that our institutions are doing this. 742 00:28:32.523 --> 00:28:35.820 And so how do we throw fuel on that fire and get the word out? 743 00:28:35.821 --> 00:28:38.554 And that's what I see our role as an association is 744 00:28:39.206 --> 00:28:40.748 there are pockets of this happening. 745 00:28:40.847 --> 00:28:44.009 How do we raise that so that everyone sees that, 746 00:28:44.072 --> 00:28:44.251 okay, 747 00:28:44.291 --> 00:28:45.212 we're not alone in this. 748 00:28:45.392 --> 00:28:46.732 The things that we're struggling with, 749 00:28:47.255 --> 00:28:48.896 other people are struggling with the same thing. 750 00:28:48.897 --> 00:28:51.216 So how do we partner together and actually make a difference? 751 00:28:51.677 --> 00:28:56.099 Because three strands are a lot stronger than just one. 752 00:28:56.115 --> 00:28:57.927 So how do we facilitate that? 753 00:28:58.177 --> 00:29:02.302 Your comments make me think of another parable about shrewdness, 754 00:29:02.443 --> 00:29:05.755 one of the most avoided parables in the New Testament, 755 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:07.568 the one about the shrewd manager. 756 00:29:08.078 --> 00:29:08.458 Hmm. 757 00:29:08.478 --> 00:29:08.638 Where, 758 00:29:08.738 --> 00:29:09.018 you know, 759 00:29:09.298 --> 00:29:09.958 you remember the one, 760 00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:10.699 this guy, 761 00:29:10.818 --> 00:29:15.439 he works for a dude who has a lot of money and he goes and he starts, 762 00:29:16.001 --> 00:29:17.298 he realizes I'm going to get canned. 763 00:29:17.798 --> 00:29:21.900 And so he changes the accounts and he starts cutting customers a break. 764 00:29:22.501 --> 00:29:23.205 And the thinking is, 765 00:29:23.259 --> 00:29:26.541 while I still have access to this role of influence and power, 766 00:29:27.166 --> 00:29:29.650 I'm going to do something to set myself up for what happens next. 767 00:29:29.666 --> 00:29:31.041 And big time paraphrase here, 768 00:29:31.103 --> 00:29:31.697 Jesus is like, 769 00:29:31.728 --> 00:29:34.962 if that clown knew what to do in that kind of a situation, 770 00:29:35.541 --> 00:29:36.322 how much more should 771 00:29:36.942 --> 00:29:38.844 Children of the light know what to do. 772 00:29:39.365 --> 00:29:41.506 And one of the exercises in keeping with that, 773 00:29:41.526 --> 00:29:42.787 that I try to teach my kids, 774 00:29:43.147 --> 00:29:44.369 hopefully they've internalized it. 775 00:29:44.370 --> 00:29:46.030 It's a problem solving exercise. 776 00:29:46.069 --> 00:29:52.951 It's a get yourself out of trouble exercise is the art of thinking about the moment you're actually in, 777 00:29:53.358 --> 00:29:56.420 not the moment you imagined you were in a minute ago, 778 00:29:56.748 --> 00:29:57.404 10 years ago, 779 00:29:57.608 --> 00:29:58.420 20 years ago. 780 00:29:59.201 --> 00:30:05.342 If you were dropped in from space into your body in the situation you're in right now, 781 00:30:05.467 --> 00:30:05.733 kiddo. 782 00:30:06.710 --> 00:30:07.611 What would be smart? 783 00:30:08.252 --> 00:30:10.033 Make decisions like that where you can, 784 00:30:10.113 --> 00:30:11.496 especially when you're under pressure. 785 00:30:11.976 --> 00:30:14.336 This is the same thing I see when I go to campuses right now. 786 00:30:14.836 --> 00:30:18.445 That line of thinking would be really advised. 787 00:30:19.023 --> 00:30:19.203 Okay, 788 00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:19.523 look, 789 00:30:19.539 --> 00:30:21.125 you can't keep what you have right now. 790 00:30:21.547 --> 00:30:22.406 It's not happening. 791 00:30:22.789 --> 00:30:23.633 Things are changing. 792 00:30:24.554 --> 00:30:25.508 The clock is ticking. 793 00:30:25.992 --> 00:30:27.258 For a lot of these institutions, 794 00:30:27.664 --> 00:30:30.070 the clock is ticking faster than time is changing. 795 00:30:30.086 --> 00:30:32.461 It's just like it's going to run out. 796 00:30:32.836 --> 00:30:36.179 I don't think we can keep most of what we have right now the way we have it. 797 00:30:36.986 --> 00:30:38.527 But we still have a bunch of stuff. 798 00:30:39.347 --> 00:30:54.328 So if we were dropped in from space in each of these institutions with still having land and a campus and faculty with a great reputation that's still here and a really nice student body and a good name with a good reputation, 799 00:30:55.047 --> 00:30:57.484 what would be the smartest, 800 00:30:57.687 --> 00:31:00.015 shrewdest thing we could do right now, 801 00:31:00.468 --> 00:31:03.656 not based on where we wish we had been 10 years ago or whatever, 802 00:31:04.250 --> 00:31:09.131 But what would be the smartest kingdom thing to do with what we have at our disposal right now? 803 00:31:09.432 --> 00:31:11.291 It's shrewd manager kind of thinking, 804 00:31:11.971 --> 00:31:17.334 but it's scary for organizations as big as a higher ed. 805 00:31:17.873 --> 00:31:18.193 Also, 806 00:31:18.936 --> 00:31:19.256 I think, 807 00:31:19.576 --> 00:31:19.811 you know, 808 00:31:19.912 --> 00:31:20.654 every kind of person, 809 00:31:20.701 --> 00:31:22.561 every kind of institution we have an Achilles heel. 810 00:31:22.576 --> 00:31:26.857 We have a thing that if we do that and if we think that way, 811 00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:30.529 it's like it undermines the thing that we think makes us valuable. 812 00:31:30.982 --> 00:31:31.123 Yeah. 813 00:31:31.576 --> 00:31:31.717 Yeah. 814 00:31:32.029 --> 00:31:32.154 So, 815 00:31:32.639 --> 00:31:32.779 yeah. 816 00:31:33.232 --> 00:31:33.436 Yeah. 817 00:31:33.482 --> 00:31:33.592 night. 818 00:31:34.458 --> 00:31:37.440 So they think that being unchanging is what makes them good. 819 00:31:37.998 --> 00:31:39.197 So this is very difficult. 820 00:31:39.221 --> 00:31:39.979 And I get that. 821 00:31:40.338 --> 00:31:40.479 Yeah. 822 00:31:40.861 --> 00:31:42.057 I love how you framed it. 823 00:31:42.080 --> 00:31:47.565 And it reminds me of something that I learned later in leadership that I wish I had had earlier on in leadership. 824 00:31:47.643 --> 00:31:49.994 It's just a very simple axiom, 825 00:31:50.166 --> 00:31:50.447 maybe, 826 00:31:51.197 --> 00:31:55.260 of when we make a decision and we're trying to make the right decision, 827 00:31:55.979 --> 00:32:01.682 sometimes it's helpful to divorce the consequence of the decision or the context of the decision. 828 00:32:02.566 --> 00:32:20.318 to make the right decision and too often we allow context or the implication of that decision to drive us away from making the right decision so you almost separate the two things what's the right thing to do right now make 829 00:32:20.350 --> 00:32:29.147 that decision and then have the conversation of okay now here are the consequences off of the right decision that we just made and it may be very difficult 830 00:32:29.298 --> 00:32:32.462 and naughty and stress-filled and complex, 831 00:32:32.962 --> 00:32:35.643 but it doesn't change the fact that you just made the right decision. 832 00:32:35.823 --> 00:32:40.229 And then you work through the consequences instead of we need to make this decision. 833 00:32:40.292 --> 00:32:40.409 Well, 834 00:32:40.487 --> 00:32:40.753 you know, 835 00:32:40.754 --> 00:32:41.073 if we do, 836 00:32:41.167 --> 00:32:42.729 and we've all been in these conversations, 837 00:32:42.768 --> 00:32:43.550 if we do that, 838 00:32:43.995 --> 00:32:53.417 then it means that this person is going to get upset at us or this donor is going to walk away from us or this or this or this or that. 839 00:32:53.823 --> 00:32:55.979 And then we come back to the decision and we say, 840 00:32:56.682 --> 00:32:56.964 all right, 841 00:32:57.011 --> 00:32:57.167 well, 842 00:32:57.307 --> 00:32:57.620 Whoa. 843 00:32:57.914 --> 00:32:58.855 Deal with this next time, 844 00:32:59.055 --> 00:32:59.736 as opposed to saying, 845 00:32:59.737 --> 00:32:59.856 no, 846 00:32:59.997 --> 00:33:00.376 you know what? 847 00:33:00.536 --> 00:33:02.938 Make the right decision first and then deal with it. 848 00:33:03.399 --> 00:33:04.020 For my money, 849 00:33:04.641 --> 00:33:08.922 the simplest step forward that all of us can take, 850 00:33:08.946 --> 00:33:09.727 myself included, 851 00:33:09.766 --> 00:33:18.352 as we try to crack this nut and we're on the same team and we're working on this together is really focus about making it about the other person. 852 00:33:18.618 --> 00:33:18.774 Yeah. 853 00:33:19.055 --> 00:33:19.321 I mean, 854 00:33:20.430 --> 00:33:23.102 that value proposition is so, 855 00:33:23.352 --> 00:33:24.821 so important for your church, 856 00:33:24.868 --> 00:33:25.946 for your worship service, 857 00:33:25.961 --> 00:33:27.008 for your podcast. 858 00:33:27.302 --> 00:33:30.406 People should know exactly what you get. 859 00:33:30.685 --> 00:33:40.055 I think a really good exercise here would be for folks who are listening to imagine trying to sell an art appreciation class for freshmen and sophomores in college. 860 00:33:40.133 --> 00:33:41.656 That's a hugely important class. 861 00:33:41.937 --> 00:33:42.476 I'm not kidding. 862 00:33:42.875 --> 00:33:44.601 That's a massively important thing. 863 00:33:44.820 --> 00:33:45.398 Art appreciation, 864 00:33:45.445 --> 00:33:46.367 music appreciation. 865 00:33:46.758 --> 00:33:48.648 When I hear people talk about those kinds of classes, 866 00:33:49.008 --> 00:33:54.555 their impression is this is a thing I have to do because those things are important. 867 00:33:54.851 --> 00:33:56.695 That's a terrible value proposition. 868 00:33:57.118 --> 00:33:59.161 Run the art appreciation exercise. 869 00:33:59.379 --> 00:34:00.141 How do you sell that? 870 00:34:00.500 --> 00:34:06.524 How do you communicate to someone what they get from that without sounding like a pompous, 871 00:34:06.688 --> 00:34:07.672 pretentious, 872 00:34:07.891 --> 00:34:16.500 know-it-all and intimidating the heck out of them because you're telling them they're going to get something that they can never aspire to and they can't even understand the words that you're using. 873 00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:18.297 How do you sell art appreciation? 874 00:34:19.032 --> 00:34:19.172 Well, 875 00:34:19.485 --> 00:34:20.360 you get this. 876 00:34:21.063 --> 00:34:23.469 You will get decoder glasses for life. 877 00:34:23.898 --> 00:34:28.865 Because the art you're going to cover in this class is going to be the stuff that you see everywhere. 878 00:34:28.888 --> 00:34:30.470 It's baked into advertisements, 879 00:34:30.548 --> 00:34:30.990 movies, 880 00:34:31.072 --> 00:34:31.572 stories, 881 00:34:31.732 --> 00:34:32.091 books. 882 00:34:32.670 --> 00:34:34.599 Songs are going to be referencing this stuff. 883 00:34:34.677 --> 00:34:35.341 And further, 884 00:34:35.998 --> 00:34:36.920 it's going to give you... 885 00:34:37.537 --> 00:34:40.400 The ability to quickly voice deep, 886 00:34:40.540 --> 00:34:47.087 complex things about your own story that some other artists from the past also experienced, 887 00:34:47.189 --> 00:34:49.869 and they found a way to encapsulate that in, 888 00:34:50.173 --> 00:34:50.431 boom, 889 00:34:50.626 --> 00:34:51.353 a work of art. 890 00:34:51.790 --> 00:34:57.283 And instead of searching for pages of explanation for what you're feeling or what you're going through, 891 00:34:57.298 --> 00:34:58.220 you'll be able to say, 892 00:34:58.736 --> 00:34:59.283 haystacks. 893 00:34:59.798 --> 00:35:00.392 And people will be like, 894 00:35:00.486 --> 00:35:00.595 oh, 895 00:35:00.705 --> 00:35:00.939 yeah, 896 00:35:01.423 --> 00:35:06.642 like the study in light and the different seasons of life and all the brushstrokes. 897 00:35:06.673 --> 00:35:06.783 and 898 00:35:07.309 --> 00:35:11.813 You're going to have this whole new vocabulary to express yourself. 899 00:35:12.075 --> 00:35:12.235 Like, 900 00:35:12.274 --> 00:35:12.614 I don't know. 901 00:35:12.774 --> 00:35:12.973 Dude, 902 00:35:12.974 --> 00:35:13.676 I'm making stuff up. 903 00:35:13.817 --> 00:35:13.934 No. 904 00:35:14.118 --> 00:35:14.817 My point is, 905 00:35:14.938 --> 00:35:16.915 that's what it sounds like to try to make it about you. 906 00:35:17.602 --> 00:35:18.438 That's exactly right. 907 00:35:18.837 --> 00:35:20.579 And when you're talking distinctive, 908 00:35:20.758 --> 00:35:26.602 it's about the point in time and us as a player at the table and your experience that you're going to have with us. 909 00:35:26.712 --> 00:35:27.790 There's a place for that. 910 00:35:28.024 --> 00:35:29.555 But when you're talking about value, 911 00:35:29.618 --> 00:35:34.258 it's what are you going to take away from this place and away from this experience? 912 00:35:34.680 --> 00:35:36.774 And that's where I think it aligns. 913 00:35:36.925 --> 00:35:40.349 beautifully with what higher education is all about. 914 00:35:40.609 --> 00:35:43.732 It is like foundational skills to life, 915 00:35:44.631 --> 00:35:47.013 understanding who you are individually, 916 00:35:47.396 --> 00:35:49.779 how you've been created in the image of God. 917 00:35:50.115 --> 00:35:50.896 You have gifts, 918 00:35:50.935 --> 00:35:51.803 you have talents, 919 00:35:51.818 --> 00:35:52.857 you have abilities, 920 00:35:53.365 --> 00:35:55.162 God-given abilities. 921 00:35:55.678 --> 00:35:57.021 I understand that to myself. 922 00:35:57.084 --> 00:35:57.209 Now, 923 00:35:57.271 --> 00:35:59.209 how do I relate that to those around me? 924 00:35:59.240 --> 00:36:02.271 And how do I relate it then and back to worship to God. 925 00:36:02.993 --> 00:36:06.858 If you can get that right in the 18 to 22 year old timeframe, 926 00:36:07.256 --> 00:36:07.897 my goodness, 927 00:36:07.959 --> 00:36:08.159 Matt, 928 00:36:08.260 --> 00:36:09.459 it sets you up for life. 929 00:36:09.959 --> 00:36:10.241 Yes. 930 00:36:10.522 --> 00:36:11.143 Well said. 931 00:36:11.979 --> 00:36:18.026 And I come back to what you were saying earlier about distinctives versus value proposition. 932 00:36:18.424 --> 00:36:18.627 You know, 933 00:36:18.628 --> 00:36:20.956 I'm always around pastoral searches and things like that. 934 00:36:21.393 --> 00:36:24.534 And I look at a lot of these documents or churches will send them to me and be like, 935 00:36:24.535 --> 00:36:24.596 Hey, 936 00:36:24.597 --> 00:36:25.096 will you look at this? 937 00:36:25.127 --> 00:36:26.018 Just give us some feedback. 938 00:36:26.049 --> 00:36:29.799 Cause I visit churches a lot and I'm flattered that they would even care about my dumb opinion. 939 00:36:30.377 --> 00:36:32.377 But I look at so many of these listings. 940 00:36:33.017 --> 00:36:35.680 And I call them RSTLNE listings. 941 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:36.842 These are all givens. 942 00:36:36.940 --> 00:36:37.221 You know, 943 00:36:37.283 --> 00:36:37.963 Wheel of Fortune. 944 00:36:38.482 --> 00:36:40.584 We know you're going to guess these letters in the final puzzle. 945 00:36:40.986 --> 00:36:41.166 Here, 946 00:36:41.205 --> 00:36:42.330 just have them for free. 947 00:36:42.385 --> 00:36:43.947 Now let's get into the actual work. 948 00:36:44.932 --> 00:36:45.947 These listings are, 949 00:36:46.510 --> 00:36:48.690 should be a devoted man of God. 950 00:36:48.955 --> 00:36:49.549 You think? 951 00:36:50.221 --> 00:36:52.580 Should be familiar with God's word. 952 00:36:52.830 --> 00:36:53.377 Really? 953 00:36:54.065 --> 00:36:55.580 Should know how to run a church. 954 00:36:55.799 --> 00:36:57.002 Huh? 955 00:36:57.236 --> 00:36:58.861 It's RSTLNE stuff. 956 00:36:59.143 --> 00:37:00.377 And when I see things, 957 00:37:00.783 --> 00:37:02.268 I got two kids about to go to college. 958 00:37:02.471 --> 00:37:02.643 We're... 959 00:37:03.001 --> 00:37:05.763 inundated with Christian higher ed stuff right now. 960 00:37:06.625 --> 00:37:07.287 It's all 961 00:37:07.627 --> 00:37:08.927 R-S-T-L-N-E. 962 00:37:09.646 --> 00:37:16.174 Really, you have a nice cafeteria and the professor's care and your campus is beautiful in the fall and you're, 963 00:37:16.674 --> 00:37:16.931 I mean, 964 00:37:17.095 --> 00:37:18.033 all the same language, 965 00:37:18.158 --> 00:37:19.080 all the same everything. 966 00:37:19.095 --> 00:37:19.658 And I'm going, 967 00:37:19.924 --> 00:37:26.049 that's just a basic expectation that should come with the territory of the basic sign that you're hanging out front. 968 00:37:26.799 --> 00:37:31.330 I want you to tell me what your philosophy is of what happens to my kid. 969 00:37:31.705 --> 00:37:32.689 How did they turn out? 970 00:37:32.873 --> 00:37:33.834 What do they get? 971 00:37:34.294 --> 00:37:35.194 Who do they become? 972 00:37:35.195 --> 00:37:36.956 And don't give me weird, 973 00:37:37.378 --> 00:37:37.757 dopey, 974 00:37:37.937 --> 00:37:38.558 calligraphy, 975 00:37:38.698 --> 00:37:40.519 Christian bookstore language for that. 976 00:37:41.339 --> 00:37:42.323 Get practical with me. 977 00:37:42.339 --> 00:37:43.987 This is exactly what we're going for. 978 00:37:44.081 --> 00:37:48.862 Talk to me like you assume I'm competent and sell me on this negotiation. 979 00:37:49.034 --> 00:37:50.206 Win the negotiation. 980 00:37:50.566 --> 00:37:58.112 Give me a great shrewd sales pitch as to how you're about to partner up with what I've been doing with my kid to get them somewhere that, 981 00:37:58.691 --> 00:37:59.034 frankly, 982 00:37:59.097 --> 00:38:02.206 you might be better at helping them get to at this stage in their life than I can do. 983 00:38:02.661 --> 00:38:03.582 That's interesting to me. 984 00:38:03.583 --> 00:38:05.324 And that's not RSTL any thinking. 985 00:38:05.885 --> 00:38:06.705 And at that point, 986 00:38:06.904 --> 00:38:08.025 you're ready to say, 987 00:38:08.107 --> 00:38:16.135 I'm willing to pay this amount in order to set up the chances that that is what will happen in my son or daughter's life. 988 00:38:16.518 --> 00:38:17.596 Value proposition. 989 00:38:17.838 --> 00:38:17.994 Wow. 990 00:38:18.439 --> 00:38:18.619 Well, 991 00:38:18.744 --> 00:38:22.135 this was a fascinating conversation, 992 00:38:22.197 --> 00:38:22.385 Matt. 993 00:38:22.463 --> 00:38:22.994 I really, 994 00:38:23.338 --> 00:38:23.666 first of all, 995 00:38:23.667 --> 00:38:24.275 I appreciate you. 996 00:38:24.728 --> 00:38:28.228 I really do think and have this be an encouragement to you. 997 00:38:28.463 --> 00:38:30.291 I know the daily grind of what you do. 998 00:38:31.041 --> 00:38:31.307 and 999 00:38:31.657 --> 00:38:33.218 You're making a living off of it, 1000 00:38:33.738 --> 00:38:35.857 but you're opening the word of God. 1001 00:38:36.178 --> 00:38:36.439 And 1002 00:38:36.896 --> 00:38:40.803 I truly believe it's biblical that every time the word of God is open, 1003 00:38:40.804 --> 00:38:46.623 the Holy Spirit is at work and you have your millions of views and people are listening in. 1004 00:38:46.678 --> 00:38:50.193 And so I just want you to be encouraged to keep doing what you're doing, 1005 00:38:50.756 --> 00:38:52.084 wrestling with the word of God, 1006 00:38:52.178 --> 00:38:58.162 opening it up and allowing the spirit of God to work through you to the people that you're engaging with. 1007 00:38:58.163 --> 00:38:59.490 I'll let you close us out. 1008 00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:00.490 give us like you 1009 00:39:01.009 --> 00:39:02.390 With the audience that we have, 1010 00:39:02.911 --> 00:39:04.093 leaders in biblical, 1011 00:39:04.452 --> 00:39:05.073 theological, 1012 00:39:05.132 --> 00:39:06.456 Christian higher education, 1013 00:39:06.956 --> 00:39:07.714 from your seat, 1014 00:39:07.796 --> 00:39:08.616 your experiences, 1015 00:39:08.655 --> 00:39:14.901 can you distill down to just one last kind of thought encouragement challenge for our listeners? 1016 00:39:15.222 --> 00:39:18.440 If you're involved in the kind of stuff that we've been talking about here, 1017 00:39:18.534 --> 00:39:21.409 you're involved in hugely important things. 1018 00:39:22.003 --> 00:39:27.362 I think there has been a bit of a malaise for the last 20 years, 1019 00:39:27.815 --> 00:39:28.893 sort of this sense of 1020 00:39:29.461 --> 00:39:29.622 Yeah, 1021 00:39:29.702 --> 00:39:30.946 everybody knows this material. 1022 00:39:31.227 --> 00:39:32.552 Everybody does this stuff. 1023 00:39:33.476 --> 00:39:34.819 And we're... 1024 00:39:35.539 --> 00:39:39.543 One more group that's kind of an extension of our Christian group, 1025 00:39:39.964 --> 00:39:40.343 and 1026 00:39:40.683 --> 00:39:47.890 I am hearing a lot of people vastly underestimating the importance of what they're doing in biblical higher education. 1027 00:39:48.390 --> 00:39:52.953 Imagining that it's just kind of out there and it's already covered, 1028 00:39:53.078 --> 00:39:54.422 it's the discovered country. 1029 00:39:54.656 --> 00:39:55.359 It's not. 1030 00:39:56.015 --> 00:39:57.453 It is the undiscovered country, 1031 00:39:58.265 --> 00:39:59.250 because all of this truth, 1032 00:39:59.281 --> 00:40:00.843 all of this stuff that we're talking about. 1033 00:40:01.547 --> 00:40:06.212 is found and refound in the lives of each successive generation of Christians. 1034 00:40:06.911 --> 00:40:09.891 And something has been hollowed out in the last 20 years. 1035 00:40:09.938 --> 00:40:11.938 I didn't feel this way about the 20th century. 1036 00:40:12.415 --> 00:40:13.141 I was also a kid, 1037 00:40:13.235 --> 00:40:14.063 but looking back on it, 1038 00:40:14.064 --> 00:40:14.899 I didn't feel this way. 1039 00:40:15.384 --> 00:40:21.610 There's something going on now where if you are hearing this and you are still in the game and you're still making this a priority, 1040 00:40:22.407 --> 00:40:23.095 you're awesome. 1041 00:40:23.641 --> 00:40:26.157 You're doing something wildly important. 1042 00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:29.001 Feels like this field is well-tended, 1043 00:40:29.021 --> 00:40:31.805 but I don't think this field is super well-tended at the moment. 1044 00:40:31.945 --> 00:40:40.094 I think there's huge opportunity for you to be creative and think in terms of being a problem solver, 1045 00:40:40.836 --> 00:40:44.180 not a thing you're supposed to say repeater. 1046 00:40:44.820 --> 00:40:45.477 That's great, 1047 00:40:46.258 --> 00:40:48.039 but really we're solving a problem here. 1048 00:40:48.086 --> 00:40:50.695 We're in a negotiation and we're in attention. 1049 00:40:51.180 --> 00:40:52.148 We have the truest, 1050 00:40:52.383 --> 00:40:55.492 realest thing that was meant for all people in all nations, 1051 00:40:55.711 --> 00:40:56.570 all languages. 1052 00:40:57.091 --> 00:40:58.491 It wants to be understood. 1053 00:40:58.691 --> 00:41:00.311 It's meant to make sense. 1054 00:41:01.093 --> 00:41:03.573 And we live in a completely unprecedented, 1055 00:41:03.694 --> 00:41:04.014 weird, 1056 00:41:04.171 --> 00:41:04.792 untested, 1057 00:41:04.831 --> 00:41:07.655 we have no idea how this is going to work out moment in history. 1058 00:41:08.311 --> 00:41:09.796 It's just going to require creativity. 1059 00:41:10.554 --> 00:41:12.257 So take your swings. 1060 00:41:12.577 --> 00:41:16.960 The fail forward fast thing is really sound advice. 1061 00:41:17.132 --> 00:41:17.288 Yeah, 1062 00:41:17.616 --> 00:41:17.835 great. 1063 00:41:18.022 --> 00:41:18.132 Yeah, 1064 00:41:18.194 --> 00:41:18.788 I'll leave it at that. 1065 00:41:19.179 --> 00:41:19.413 Great. 1066 00:41:19.804 --> 00:41:19.913 Well, 1067 00:41:19.929 --> 00:41:20.210 thank you, 1068 00:41:20.211 --> 00:41:20.382 Matt. 1069 00:41:20.383 --> 00:41:24.819 And thank you for saying yes to be our 100th guest on Biblical Higher Ed Talk. 1070 00:41:25.335 --> 00:41:29.840 So if you'd like more information about the 10-minute Bible Hour in our show description, 1071 00:41:30.121 --> 00:41:30.922 we'll put a link there. 1072 00:41:30.942 --> 00:41:33.504 And I encourage everybody to check that out. 1073 00:41:33.723 --> 00:41:35.668 And if you search on YouTube, 1074 00:41:35.684 --> 00:41:38.371 if you look on your favorite podcast platforms, 1075 00:41:38.372 --> 00:41:41.934 you'll find plenty of information about Matt and the work that he's doing. 1076 00:41:42.387 --> 00:41:43.371 So until next time, 1077 00:41:44.028 --> 00:41:45.121 stay kingdom focused. 1078 00:41:45.903 --> 00:41:51.496 The Biblical Higher Ed Talk podcast is proud to be a part of the Higher Ed Marketer Podcast Network. 1079 00:41:52.043 --> 00:41:53.840 Discover even more conversations. 1080 00:41:54.179 --> 00:41:58.923 Resources and tools to help you grow your institution at the higher ed marketer.com. 1081 00:41:59.544 --> 00:42:01.306 Your go-to community for all things, 1082 00:42:01.388 --> 00:42:03.110 higher ed marketing and leadership.