WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.762 --> 00:00:07.183 Pharma faces constant pressure, 2 00:00:07.884 --> 00:00:08.604 patient access, 3 00:00:09.005 --> 00:00:10.246 public system sustainability, 4 00:00:10.706 --> 00:00:11.807 and corporate viability. 5 00:00:12.548 --> 00:00:13.368 Since this interview, 6 00:00:13.569 --> 00:00:17.472 Benoit Escoffier has become Head of Access Europe at Daiichi Sankyo, 7 00:00:17.792 --> 00:00:20.134 which makes this conversation even more relevant. 8 00:00:20.574 --> 00:00:22.256 The question is no longer theoretical. 9 00:00:22.416 --> 00:00:26.679 It's about how to balance societal expectations with the economic reality of innovation. 10 00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:31.063 What responsibility do pharmaceutical companies have in maintaining this balance? 11 00:00:31.303 --> 00:00:32.484 We discuss this in this video. 12 00:00:33.152 --> 00:00:36.195 This episode was recorded with the generous support of Daiichi Sankyo. 13 00:00:37.035 --> 00:00:38.857 There's an extremely strong focus on price, 14 00:00:39.217 --> 00:00:40.158 not so much on value. 15 00:00:40.358 --> 00:00:44.241 We're obsessed with price and we don't work much on value. 16 00:00:44.521 --> 00:00:47.444 The business models of pharmaceutical groups will evolve. 17 00:00:47.744 --> 00:00:48.284 They must. 18 00:00:48.925 --> 00:00:53.308 That means we certainly need to think about other ways of evaluating medications. 19 00:00:54.069 --> 00:00:54.429 Today, 20 00:00:54.609 --> 00:00:56.611 I have the chance to be with Benoit Escoffier. 21 00:00:56.731 --> 00:00:56.911 Hello, 22 00:00:56.971 --> 00:00:57.251 Benoit. 23 00:00:57.552 --> 00:00:57.712 Hello, 24 00:00:57.752 --> 00:00:58.152 Nathalie. 25 00:00:58.492 --> 00:01:00.514 Benoit is the head of Daiichi Sankyo in France. 26 00:01:02.956 --> 00:01:09.180 I'm delighted to be able to welcome him today because I feel like he has an atypical profile who will talk to us about science, 27 00:01:09.240 --> 00:01:09.800 innovation, 28 00:01:10.220 --> 00:01:10.660 leadership. 29 00:01:11.381 --> 00:01:12.562 And well, 30 00:01:12.622 --> 00:01:19.706 how do we go about tackling these subjects that are super cross-functional and still manage to have an impact with perhaps simplicity? 31 00:01:20.146 --> 00:01:20.666 In any case, 32 00:01:20.746 --> 00:01:23.888 I'm super happy to be able to have this discussion. 33 00:01:23.968 --> 00:01:26.390 I think we're going to have a slightly different perspective, 34 00:01:26.470 --> 00:01:30.332 someone who has well traveled the world and who can also bring us 35 00:01:31.464 --> 00:01:31.605 Well, 36 00:01:31.606 --> 00:01:32.805 the mission of Pharma Today. 37 00:01:32.985 --> 00:01:33.666 I'm super happy. 38 00:01:35.707 --> 00:01:35.827 Well, 39 00:01:35.847 --> 00:01:36.147 me too. 40 00:01:36.507 --> 00:01:37.188 I really hope so. 41 00:01:37.988 --> 00:01:38.749 So to begin with, 42 00:01:39.629 --> 00:01:45.513 I would like us to take a moment to talk a little bit about you and your experiences when you first arrived at Daiichi Sankyo. 43 00:01:46.593 --> 00:01:50.396 Could you tell me what exactly was it that truly fascinated you at that time? 44 00:01:50.476 --> 00:01:57.500 Was it perhaps something along the lines of basically a breakthrough innovation or a revolutionary new approach? 45 00:01:58.144 --> 00:01:59.626 specifically in the field of oncology, 46 00:01:59.726 --> 00:02:01.787 what was it that really caught your attention? 47 00:02:01.847 --> 00:02:04.310 Was there a particular moment or idea that stood out to you? 48 00:02:05.491 --> 00:02:05.671 Yes, 49 00:02:05.751 --> 00:02:06.091 actually, 50 00:02:06.151 --> 00:02:10.555 it was what we might call a kind of second wave of innovation, 51 00:02:10.655 --> 00:02:10.895 really. 52 00:02:11.336 --> 00:02:11.556 Right, 53 00:02:11.576 --> 00:02:12.036 yeah. 54 00:02:12.037 --> 00:02:14.378 It was the monoclonal antibody drug conjugates, 55 00:02:15.339 --> 00:02:16.780 which had existed for some time, 56 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:18.062 especially in breast cancer, 57 00:02:18.282 --> 00:02:20.824 and which had demonstrated extremely positive efficacy. 58 00:02:21.845 --> 00:02:22.325 And there, 59 00:02:23.466 --> 00:02:23.887 in fact, 60 00:02:24.227 --> 00:02:25.308 the Japanese researchers... 61 00:02:26.656 --> 00:02:32.140 Because one of the peculiarities of Daiichi Sankyo is that they really have in-house research that is very, 62 00:02:32.200 --> 00:02:33.161 very strong. 63 00:02:33.241 --> 00:02:34.482 The Japanese researchers, 64 00:02:34.502 --> 00:02:36.403 who are actually very strong in technology, 65 00:02:36.983 --> 00:02:39.025 more than in chemistry or biology, 66 00:02:40.606 --> 00:02:44.769 managed to develop an element which is quite important in ADCs, 67 00:02:44.909 --> 00:02:46.450 which is the linker, 68 00:02:47.591 --> 00:02:52.234 the one that connects the monoclonal antibody to the chemotherapy, 69 00:02:52.594 --> 00:02:53.074 basically, 70 00:02:53.194 --> 00:02:54.996 which is an element of stability. 71 00:02:55.904 --> 00:03:00.428 We managed to develop a second generation of that specific element, 72 00:03:00.488 --> 00:03:09.776 which meant that we managed to develop and offer to healthcare professionals and patients products that are even more effective than those that were on the market. 73 00:03:10.396 --> 00:03:12.899 And we are in this dynamic today, 74 00:03:12.979 --> 00:03:16.061 very focused on these molecules that we call ADCs. 75 00:03:17.242 --> 00:03:18.323 But in the future, 76 00:03:18.383 --> 00:03:23.608 we also have research and development on other techniques of production, 77 00:03:23.768 --> 00:03:23.988 which... 78 00:03:24.188 --> 00:03:25.970 I hope and I am certain will be. 79 00:03:26.490 --> 00:03:29.292 Can you explain a bit what does it revolutionize in the field? 80 00:03:29.612 --> 00:03:33.135 Why do you actually decide to take on these kinds of fights? 81 00:03:34.997 --> 00:03:35.137 Well, 82 00:03:35.197 --> 00:03:38.700 what I'd like to answer to your question is what is a revolution actually? 83 00:03:39.140 --> 00:03:43.984 I think the interest we have in the pharmaceutical industry is to bring innovations. 84 00:03:44.945 --> 00:03:46.026 And besides, 85 00:03:46.066 --> 00:03:49.449 I don't know if we all have the same definition of what an innovation is. 86 00:03:49.829 --> 00:03:51.290 We talk a lot about innovation. 87 00:03:51.310 --> 00:03:53.252 We talk a lot about the values of innovation. 88 00:03:53.596 --> 00:03:53.756 Yeah, 89 00:03:53.776 --> 00:03:54.677 there's disruptive, 90 00:03:54.797 --> 00:03:55.498 there's incremental. 91 00:03:55.798 --> 00:03:56.519 But we don't know. 92 00:03:56.959 --> 00:03:57.520 In the end, 93 00:03:57.780 --> 00:04:01.383 I am quite deeply convinced that whether it's the members of, 94 00:04:01.704 --> 00:04:01.844 well, 95 00:04:01.884 --> 00:04:05.788 those who work in the pharma industry or even the health authorities, 96 00:04:06.148 --> 00:04:09.291 they should always put themselves in the shoes of the citizen, 97 00:04:09.311 --> 00:04:10.652 the patient and the citizen, 98 00:04:10.752 --> 00:04:12.314 because we are all that first. 99 00:04:12.634 --> 00:04:12.854 Yes, 100 00:04:13.014 --> 00:04:14.095 that's how we decide. 101 00:04:14.456 --> 00:04:14.996 Before being, 102 00:04:15.277 --> 00:04:18.800 I am a citizen before being there to decide what needs to be done. 103 00:04:20.696 --> 00:04:20.996 For me, 104 00:04:21.277 --> 00:04:21.497 well, 105 00:04:21.597 --> 00:04:22.578 for me and for my team, 106 00:04:22.618 --> 00:04:23.518 because we worked on it, 107 00:04:24.980 --> 00:04:25.620 an innovation. 108 00:04:26.100 --> 00:04:26.461 Today, 109 00:04:26.841 --> 00:04:29.403 it can be characterized by three things. 110 00:04:29.503 --> 00:04:31.225 Either it prevents the disease, 111 00:04:31.645 --> 00:04:34.387 overall vaccine or other things, 112 00:04:34.487 --> 00:04:35.328 or it cures, 113 00:04:35.968 --> 00:04:40.492 or it allows one to live longer in better conditions. 114 00:04:40.993 --> 00:04:44.395 These are the three elements that could determine an innovation. 115 00:04:44.856 --> 00:04:48.559 So you could have a product that technically is not revolutionary, 116 00:04:49.039 --> 00:04:50.040 meaning it doesn't have 117 00:04:50.320 --> 00:04:53.022 a way of being produced that is absolutely new, 118 00:04:53.242 --> 00:05:01.708 but which meets one of these three innovation criteria and which will therefore improve the lives of patients and so on. 119 00:05:01.709 --> 00:05:02.128 So for me, 120 00:05:02.288 --> 00:05:03.869 it's more that which interests me. 121 00:05:04.590 --> 00:05:05.650 It's to say to myself, 122 00:05:07.252 --> 00:05:09.553 and what interested me in the portfolio, 123 00:05:10.113 --> 00:05:10.994 in development, 124 00:05:11.374 --> 00:05:13.536 in research and development at Daiichi Sankyo. 125 00:05:14.483 --> 00:05:18.106 What are the molecules that potentially will bring innovations? 126 00:05:18.567 --> 00:05:22.970 And it's on the basis of this discussion that I had with people who knew about it at the time, 127 00:05:23.391 --> 00:05:24.852 much better than me in oncology, 128 00:05:24.972 --> 00:05:25.973 and who told me, 129 00:05:26.053 --> 00:05:26.273 yes, 130 00:05:26.954 --> 00:05:30.037 there's something very promising in terms of innovation in this lab. 131 00:05:30.537 --> 00:05:31.258 So go for it. 132 00:05:31.718 --> 00:05:33.540 And so that's what I did. 133 00:05:33.940 --> 00:05:34.120 Yeah, 134 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:34.380 yeah. 135 00:05:34.721 --> 00:05:37.343 And today then you're in charge of the French subsidiary, 136 00:05:38.064 --> 00:05:41.767 but you also have a global role actually managing the upcoming portfolios. 137 00:05:42.303 --> 00:05:42.503 Well, 138 00:05:42.643 --> 00:05:47.786 I was very interested in getting some R&D experience because overall, 139 00:05:48.407 --> 00:05:54.170 we operational structures aren't much without the researchers who find the molecules and bring them to us. 140 00:05:54.610 --> 00:05:57.452 And I really wanted to understand how that worked. 141 00:05:57.492 --> 00:06:01.014 And so we have a future product that's an ADC as well, 142 00:06:01.434 --> 00:06:04.876 but it targets another receptor called MUC1, 143 00:06:05.757 --> 00:06:09.179 which it binds to and which is present in many cancers. 144 00:06:09.991 --> 00:06:15.475 And there are groups that are very far upstream from the launches working on these molecules. 145 00:06:15.935 --> 00:06:17.096 It's early development, 146 00:06:17.596 --> 00:06:18.417 early stage, 147 00:06:19.498 --> 00:06:19.678 well, 148 00:06:19.858 --> 00:06:21.019 which I asked to work in. 149 00:06:21.099 --> 00:06:26.282 And so I work as what's called global commercial lead in that group for this molecule, 150 00:06:26.362 --> 00:06:28.064 which is a quite promising molecule. 151 00:06:28.564 --> 00:06:34.128 And that allowed me personally to learn a lot about all the stages of development, 152 00:06:34.208 --> 00:06:35.268 research and development, 153 00:06:35.649 --> 00:06:38.811 and also about the decision-making processes used at... 154 00:06:39.211 --> 00:06:39.671 that point. 155 00:06:40.132 --> 00:06:42.254 And then I think that my experience, 156 00:06:42.834 --> 00:06:43.995 which is more operational, 157 00:06:44.075 --> 00:06:45.597 more focused on sales elements, 158 00:06:45.697 --> 00:06:46.317 finance, 159 00:06:46.397 --> 00:06:50.601 and the probabilities of also contributed to helping us make choices, 160 00:06:50.661 --> 00:06:52.382 which isn't always easy when you're so, 161 00:06:52.623 --> 00:06:54.844 so far along in the development. 162 00:06:55.145 --> 00:06:55.305 Yeah, 163 00:06:55.425 --> 00:06:55.565 yeah. 164 00:06:55.665 --> 00:06:56.146 And is it, 165 00:06:56.366 --> 00:06:57.467 do you want to tell us about that? 166 00:06:57.847 --> 00:07:01.810 Maybe about basically just the perspective of how a lab thinks five years before a launch, 167 00:07:02.131 --> 00:07:02.911 what it looks at? 168 00:07:03.512 --> 00:07:04.032 Because later, 169 00:07:04.212 --> 00:07:04.353 well, 170 00:07:04.393 --> 00:07:06.795 there might be people in administration listening who think, 171 00:07:06.955 --> 00:07:07.075 oh. 172 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:07.539 Well, 173 00:07:07.599 --> 00:07:09.220 I'm going to have to validate that or not. 174 00:07:09.641 --> 00:07:10.281 And so actually, 175 00:07:10.321 --> 00:07:11.462 is that taken into account? 176 00:07:11.842 --> 00:07:12.062 I mean, 177 00:07:12.082 --> 00:07:13.904 on what criteria are these things that you, 178 00:07:14.404 --> 00:07:16.366 how do you anticipate them knowing that, 179 00:07:16.686 --> 00:07:16.826 well, 180 00:07:16.846 --> 00:07:20.268 you have your eye perhaps a bit sharpened on France, 181 00:07:20.368 --> 00:07:21.769 but you're not just dealing with France? 182 00:07:23.831 --> 00:07:23.951 No, 183 00:07:24.131 --> 00:07:24.251 no. 184 00:07:24.471 --> 00:07:25.792 And I've worked on many regions, 185 00:07:25.832 --> 00:07:27.594 but I think it would actually be interesting. 186 00:07:28.835 --> 00:07:29.255 It's a good. 187 00:07:30.335 --> 00:07:31.235 It would be interesting, 188 00:07:31.255 --> 00:07:31.655 in fact, 189 00:07:31.695 --> 00:07:34.156 if perhaps the authorities could, 190 00:07:34.356 --> 00:07:37.757 or if there could be exchanges with the authorities upstream, 191 00:07:38.217 --> 00:07:39.458 only of phase threes, 192 00:07:39.898 --> 00:07:43.859 which are essentially the phases that actually allow for registration. 193 00:07:44.599 --> 00:07:44.719 Now, 194 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:46.840 there can be exceptions or whatever, 195 00:07:47.460 --> 00:07:50.281 but there could be discussions upstream, 196 00:07:50.541 --> 00:07:52.761 particularly on protocol designs. 197 00:07:53.602 --> 00:07:54.082 Overall, 198 00:07:54.322 --> 00:07:57.323 the authorities on the very upstream part today... 199 00:07:57.863 --> 00:07:58.003 Yeah, 200 00:07:58.043 --> 00:07:58.523 they're not there. 201 00:07:58.859 --> 00:07:58.979 No, 202 00:07:59.019 --> 00:07:59.319 it's not. 203 00:07:59.359 --> 00:08:00.340 They don't have the time. 204 00:08:00.341 --> 00:08:00.700 Yeah, 205 00:08:00.701 --> 00:08:00.861 yeah. 206 00:08:01.461 --> 00:08:01.981 That's for sure. 207 00:08:03.122 --> 00:08:04.563 But the decision-making modes, 208 00:08:05.164 --> 00:08:05.424 first, 209 00:08:05.724 --> 00:08:07.786 there's a capitalistic decision-making mode, 210 00:08:08.186 --> 00:08:09.907 meaning these are huge investments. 211 00:08:09.968 --> 00:08:10.588 And so they can, 212 00:08:11.028 --> 00:08:11.509 to have, 213 00:08:11.929 --> 00:08:14.791 either you have deep enough pockets and you can do it all by yourself, 214 00:08:15.272 --> 00:08:18.254 or you decide to go and do it with a partner who can help you. 215 00:08:18.414 --> 00:08:22.357 That's what we did with AstraZeneca on one side and then with MSD on the other. 216 00:08:22.457 --> 00:08:24.839 So there's a decision already there. 217 00:08:26.171 --> 00:08:27.112 Then there's the part, 218 00:08:27.312 --> 00:08:27.693 let's say, 219 00:08:28.093 --> 00:08:29.514 very scientific and clinical, 220 00:08:29.574 --> 00:08:37.341 meaning the efficacy of the drug on various elements very early on to see if there's an activity that works or not. 221 00:08:37.782 --> 00:08:38.822 And then after that, 222 00:08:39.103 --> 00:08:41.625 we get into the logic of phase one, 223 00:08:41.685 --> 00:08:42.265 phase two, 224 00:08:43.206 --> 00:08:45.248 with a very strong driver nonetheless, 225 00:08:45.308 --> 00:08:46.389 which is scientific. 226 00:08:46.649 --> 00:08:53.155 Does it work or does it not work on which we must apply feasibility filters at some point? 227 00:08:53.579 --> 00:08:55.040 And that's where I come in is to say, 228 00:08:55.180 --> 00:08:55.420 yes, 229 00:08:55.641 --> 00:08:55.961 okay, 230 00:08:57.462 --> 00:08:59.423 it's scientifically or clinically, 231 00:08:59.463 --> 00:09:00.584 we see there's an activity. 232 00:09:01.485 --> 00:09:02.185 But overall, 233 00:09:02.205 --> 00:09:04.227 the market is already completely saturated, 234 00:09:04.247 --> 00:09:04.767 for example. 235 00:09:04.807 --> 00:09:17.616 So it will be hard to bring value compared to that where the target is so small that in terms of development costs compared to potentially what we could have in sales, 236 00:09:17.636 --> 00:09:18.377 it doesn't work. 237 00:09:19.097 --> 00:09:21.559 And so there are many decisions that come into play. 238 00:09:22.003 --> 00:09:28.729 based on a clinical activity relative to a feasibility to then move towards phases two, 239 00:09:28.809 --> 00:09:29.749 phase three and others. 240 00:09:29.829 --> 00:09:30.970 It's quite complex. 241 00:09:31.411 --> 00:09:33.032 And it's not the right time to talk about that, 242 00:09:33.092 --> 00:09:33.412 because 243 00:09:33.753 --> 00:09:36.055 I'm going to ask you to talk about a stable world. 244 00:09:36.955 --> 00:09:38.196 But that means there's also, 245 00:09:39.457 --> 00:09:39.577 well, 246 00:09:39.718 --> 00:09:46.503 looking perhaps at the final market and what there will be in such a country to know how it's going to go. 247 00:09:47.284 --> 00:09:50.486 And they're the weight of each country. 248 00:09:50.646 --> 00:09:51.147 How do you... 249 00:09:51.603 --> 00:09:51.964 Look at it. 250 00:09:52.244 --> 00:09:56.228 Because while it's true that often health authorities naturally have a French perspective, 251 00:09:56.528 --> 00:09:59.392 they find it hard to consider that there are other countries, 252 00:09:59.452 --> 00:10:02.375 or even consider that other countries are there basically to pay. 253 00:10:02.865 --> 00:10:04.066 to pay for what happens in Europe? 254 00:10:04.386 --> 00:10:04.506 Well, 255 00:10:04.526 --> 00:10:08.410 that's somewhat what happens in practice since the United States represents 256 00:10:09.130 --> 00:10:11.993 50% of sales and almost 60% 257 00:10:12.873 --> 00:10:13.474 of profits, 258 00:10:13.954 --> 00:10:15.335 at least for specialty products, 259 00:10:15.375 --> 00:10:15.676 for 2% 260 00:10:15.677 --> 00:10:16.236 to 3% 261 00:10:16.316 --> 00:10:17.057 of the population. 262 00:10:17.077 --> 00:10:19.319 So there is something today, 263 00:10:19.579 --> 00:10:21.120 and I think it's one of the reasons, 264 00:10:21.280 --> 00:10:23.622 even if it's done in a somewhat brutal way, 265 00:10:24.023 --> 00:10:24.603 for which the 266 00:10:25.103 --> 00:10:28.246 American president is putting pressure on the pharmaceutical industry. 267 00:10:28.887 --> 00:10:30.408 So yes, 268 00:10:31.389 --> 00:10:31.509 I... 269 00:10:31.949 --> 00:10:38.234 I think we're at an extremely important moment where the business models of pharmaceutical groups will evolve. 270 00:10:38.354 --> 00:10:40.335 They will evolve and they must evolve. 271 00:10:40.896 --> 00:10:47.581 And that means we certainly need to think about other ways of evaluating medicines. 272 00:10:47.981 --> 00:10:49.742 I was talking about innovation. 273 00:10:50.082 --> 00:10:50.463 Exactly. 274 00:10:50.583 --> 00:10:52.084 First thing is what is an innovation? 275 00:10:52.184 --> 00:10:54.686 And then second thing is what value we give to innovation. 276 00:10:54.687 --> 00:10:55.486 Yeah. 277 00:10:55.487 --> 00:10:56.087 And that today. 278 00:10:56.347 --> 00:10:57.008 For society, 279 00:10:57.068 --> 00:10:57.808 meaning not just for. 280 00:10:58.168 --> 00:10:58.329 Well, 281 00:10:58.369 --> 00:10:58.809 exactly. 282 00:10:59.165 --> 00:10:59.405 I mean, 283 00:10:59.445 --> 00:10:59.865 basically, 284 00:10:59.925 --> 00:11:03.686 if our mission is to improve the quality of life for society in general, 285 00:11:03.826 --> 00:11:08.368 then our innovation must enable this improvement in quality of life. 286 00:11:08.908 --> 00:11:09.168 Today, 287 00:11:09.208 --> 00:11:13.789 we're still using the same evaluation criteria that we've had for quite some time, 288 00:11:13.829 --> 00:11:14.889 especially in oncology. 289 00:11:16.510 --> 00:11:23.972 And there are certainly things to contribute to work on regarding more comprehensive aspects of quality of life, 290 00:11:24.032 --> 00:11:24.672 for instance, 291 00:11:24.772 --> 00:11:27.453 improving quality of life across many more factors. 292 00:11:29.157 --> 00:11:33.038 where we target the populations we want to bring our innovations to, 293 00:11:33.638 --> 00:11:36.479 so that the effect is truly positive and not diluted. 294 00:11:36.899 --> 00:11:39.020 So there are things that we absolutely need to work on, 295 00:11:40.260 --> 00:11:40.500 well, 296 00:11:40.980 --> 00:11:42.201 to hope that this industry, 297 00:11:42.481 --> 00:11:42.841 which is, 298 00:11:43.361 --> 00:11:43.861 in my view, 299 00:11:43.901 --> 00:11:45.582 the most essential industry today, 300 00:11:45.662 --> 00:11:49.123 because it's the one that brings the most benefits to citizens, 301 00:11:49.223 --> 00:11:50.123 not many others do, 302 00:11:51.223 --> 00:11:52.484 at least in terms of industry, 303 00:11:53.644 --> 00:11:53.824 well, 304 00:11:53.904 --> 00:11:57.565 can continue to have a business model that rewards the risk taken. 305 00:11:58.661 --> 00:12:00.722 So is the risk today heavily? 306 00:12:01.983 --> 00:12:04.984 Those are discussions we can have which need to be refined. 307 00:12:05.004 --> 00:12:05.664 But overall, 308 00:12:06.004 --> 00:12:09.186 it's a capital intensive industry with significant risk taking, 309 00:12:09.666 --> 00:12:11.287 more so than in other industries, 310 00:12:12.167 --> 00:12:19.150 and where there must be a suitable return on that risk taking so that people continue to invest in this industry. 311 00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:22.411 But there's going to be a rebalancing in the coming years. 312 00:12:23.071 --> 00:12:24.012 And yes, 313 00:12:24.072 --> 00:12:26.373 does that mean there need to be other sources? 314 00:12:26.733 --> 00:12:28.695 of growth than just the United States. 315 00:12:29.575 --> 00:12:29.995 I think so. 316 00:12:30.116 --> 00:12:31.376 And I think it's a good thing too. 317 00:12:32.657 --> 00:12:32.858 Now, 318 00:12:32.898 --> 00:12:33.038 well, 319 00:12:33.078 --> 00:12:34.419 that's my feeling. 320 00:12:34.439 --> 00:12:35.820 I don't know how it will evolve. 321 00:12:38.942 --> 00:12:39.883 So do you have, 322 00:12:40.403 --> 00:12:40.623 I mean, 323 00:12:40.663 --> 00:12:43.705 basically it means it's not necessarily health innovation paths, 324 00:12:43.765 --> 00:12:45.166 but basically it's paths for, 325 00:12:45.547 --> 00:12:47.488 maybe you can comment on paths for, 326 00:12:48.008 --> 00:12:48.309 actually, 327 00:12:48.369 --> 00:12:48.509 yeah, 328 00:12:48.549 --> 00:12:50.010 what are we not valuing enough today? 329 00:12:50.390 --> 00:12:50.710 Paths, 330 00:12:50.951 --> 00:12:52.211 you mentioned quality of life, 331 00:12:52.311 --> 00:12:52.512 yeah. 332 00:12:52.852 --> 00:12:53.452 For patients, 333 00:12:53.492 --> 00:12:54.033 You mentioned. 334 00:12:56.573 --> 00:12:58.774 I think the feeling I have is that today... 335 00:12:59.394 --> 00:13:00.595 What are we not looking at actually? 336 00:13:01.075 --> 00:13:05.977 What's in the blind spots that that means we're actually a bit off the mark in the sense of everyone, 337 00:13:05.997 --> 00:13:06.257 you know? 338 00:13:08.418 --> 00:13:11.559 I have the feeling today that there's an extremely strong focus on price, 339 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:12.880 not so much on value. 340 00:13:14.300 --> 00:13:18.182 We're obsessed with price and we don't work much on value. 341 00:13:18.542 --> 00:13:21.763 Maybe at one time it suited everyone not to work on it. 342 00:13:22.564 --> 00:13:22.924 But again, 343 00:13:22.964 --> 00:13:24.965 I think we're at a point where if we... 344 00:13:25.665 --> 00:13:30.127 The industry are proud of what we do and we're confident that what we do really brings something. 345 00:13:30.548 --> 00:13:37.111 We honestly have no real interest in continuing to let the authorities dictate how things should work, 346 00:13:37.571 --> 00:13:39.953 who actually have two main issues. 347 00:13:40.353 --> 00:13:45.356 The first issue is that budgets are becoming more and more restricted and it's not going to get any better. 348 00:13:45.916 --> 00:13:46.456 That's obvious. 349 00:13:47.577 --> 00:13:52.319 And the second is that there's still this old public-private opposition sentiment, 350 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:53.160 unfortunately, 351 00:13:53.380 --> 00:13:55.201 which means the industry's image is still... 352 00:13:56.021 --> 00:13:56.861 quite negative. 353 00:13:57.222 --> 00:13:57.342 So 354 00:13:58.082 --> 00:13:59.642 I'm personally quite convinced, 355 00:13:59.742 --> 00:14:01.263 and I'm working with my team on this, 356 00:14:01.803 --> 00:14:03.263 that we need to work on value. 357 00:14:03.783 --> 00:14:03.923 Now, 358 00:14:04.003 --> 00:14:07.364 value is once again about the elements I mentioned. 359 00:14:07.645 --> 00:14:08.185 Innovation. 360 00:14:08.445 --> 00:14:08.565 Now, 361 00:14:08.605 --> 00:14:09.525 how do you value them? 362 00:14:09.625 --> 00:14:09.765 Well, 363 00:14:09.825 --> 00:14:11.126 it's certainly not simple. 364 00:14:11.426 --> 00:14:11.546 No, 365 00:14:11.766 --> 00:14:14.126 but surely it was simpler to talk about a list price. 366 00:14:14.527 --> 00:14:14.987 Exactly. 367 00:14:15.227 --> 00:14:16.407 It's certainly not simple. 368 00:14:16.887 --> 00:14:19.608 There are surely several criteria to be integrated into it. 369 00:14:21.349 --> 00:14:21.689 Of course, 370 00:14:21.729 --> 00:14:22.689 quality of life. 371 00:14:23.209 --> 00:14:24.230 impact on recovery, 372 00:14:24.310 --> 00:14:24.950 for example, 373 00:14:24.970 --> 00:14:25.651 in oncology, 374 00:14:27.132 --> 00:14:31.135 but also what it creates in terms of dynamism for a country and so on. 375 00:14:33.376 --> 00:14:34.837 But I think in any case, 376 00:14:34.857 --> 00:14:37.699 it would be interesting for the industry to spend time working on this. 377 00:14:38.880 --> 00:14:42.683 Because today I don't see what the solution is other than to keep fighting and fighting, 378 00:14:43.083 --> 00:14:43.223 yeah, 379 00:14:43.563 --> 00:14:46.085 and fighting without getting the results we want to have. 380 00:14:46.325 --> 00:14:47.246 Because on top of that, 381 00:14:47.386 --> 00:14:51.569 there's a notion of actually being not disunited. 382 00:14:51.957 --> 00:14:55.922 but being opposing forces when in the end we're all looking, 383 00:14:56.183 --> 00:14:57.825 whether it's the public or private sector, 384 00:14:57.845 --> 00:14:58.266 as you say, 385 00:14:58.706 --> 00:14:59.988 or just the average citizen, 386 00:15:00.048 --> 00:15:02.431 we're all looking to be well cared for. 387 00:15:02.771 --> 00:15:06.016 If there's one thing for sure is that or to have the best care. 388 00:15:06.436 --> 00:15:06.697 Yes. 389 00:15:07.983 --> 00:15:11.464 That's why I think the priority and main effort we all must make, 390 00:15:12.104 --> 00:15:13.545 and especially us in the industry, 391 00:15:13.605 --> 00:15:15.805 is to put ourselves in the citizens' 392 00:15:15.845 --> 00:15:16.145 shoes. 393 00:15:16.245 --> 00:15:17.006 Does the citizen... 394 00:15:17.306 --> 00:15:18.266 Do they want this or not, 395 00:15:18.306 --> 00:15:19.206 this innovation or not? 396 00:15:19.266 --> 00:15:19.666 That's it. 397 00:15:20.046 --> 00:15:23.367 Do they want this innovation and are they ready to fund... 398 00:15:23.787 --> 00:15:23.948 Yeah, 399 00:15:24.208 --> 00:15:24.808 to pay for it. 400 00:15:25.128 --> 00:15:25.948 This innovation, 401 00:15:26.448 --> 00:15:27.449 which is an investment. 402 00:15:27.450 --> 00:15:27.589 Yeah, 403 00:15:27.829 --> 00:15:28.809 yeah. 404 00:15:28.810 --> 00:15:29.949 Not necessarily out of pocket, 405 00:15:29.969 --> 00:15:30.970 but the society... 406 00:15:31.390 --> 00:15:31.830 The cost, 407 00:15:31.890 --> 00:15:32.010 no. 408 00:15:32.250 --> 00:15:33.110 It's an investment. 409 00:15:33.470 --> 00:15:35.511 Are they ready to invest in that? 410 00:15:35.771 --> 00:15:35.991 Yes. 411 00:15:36.427 --> 00:15:36.867 And why? 412 00:15:37.027 --> 00:15:37.468 And you know, 413 00:15:37.628 --> 00:15:38.068 and I mean, 414 00:15:38.308 --> 00:15:39.869 and we really have to put ourselves... 415 00:15:40.329 --> 00:15:43.550 It's a very responsible approach you're asking of a citizen to say, 416 00:15:44.411 --> 00:15:44.791 actually, 417 00:15:45.211 --> 00:15:47.872 it's normal that in certain areas we invest. 418 00:15:47.912 --> 00:15:49.433 It's an approach that's a bit new. 419 00:15:49.773 --> 00:15:50.053 For me, 420 00:15:50.173 --> 00:15:52.655 the point isn't so much asking the citizen to decide, 421 00:15:52.975 --> 00:15:54.716 but for us to put ourselves in the... 422 00:15:55.136 --> 00:15:55.676 Citizen's shoes. 423 00:15:56.076 --> 00:15:56.677 Meaning that I, 424 00:15:56.837 --> 00:15:57.517 as the industry, 425 00:15:58.017 --> 00:15:58.197 okay, 426 00:15:59.818 --> 00:16:01.799 I have financial goals that are obvious. 427 00:16:02.079 --> 00:16:06.301 Our mission is to improve quality of life within a sustainable financial framework. 428 00:16:06.701 --> 00:16:07.001 Yes. 429 00:16:07.262 --> 00:16:07.582 In fact, 430 00:16:07.622 --> 00:16:09.123 you're going to look for something else if... 431 00:16:10.283 --> 00:16:11.264 The health authorities, 432 00:16:11.284 --> 00:16:14.165 their goal today is to ensure that the budget doesn't blow up, 433 00:16:14.225 --> 00:16:14.805 doesn't blow up, 434 00:16:14.845 --> 00:16:15.466 doesn't blow up. 435 00:16:16.686 --> 00:16:19.248 And so we're dealing with two opposing logics. 436 00:16:19.568 --> 00:16:24.650 But there comes a point where at least putting ourselves in each other's shoes and saying, 437 00:16:24.690 --> 00:16:24.930 yes, 438 00:16:25.030 --> 00:16:25.411 on this, 439 00:16:25.611 --> 00:16:26.071 it's clear. 440 00:16:26.563 --> 00:16:30.064 That there's an innovation because it meets the criteria I mentioned, 441 00:16:30.204 --> 00:16:31.284 at least one of the three, 442 00:16:31.524 --> 00:16:33.445 and that it's valued in this way. 443 00:16:33.665 --> 00:16:34.645 That could be interesting. 444 00:16:35.025 --> 00:16:35.265 Right. 445 00:16:35.726 --> 00:16:36.406 Thank you very much. 446 00:16:36.426 --> 00:16:39.067 I appreciate your willingness to share your experiences. 447 00:16:39.467 --> 00:16:45.708 I'd really like to hear you talk a bit more in detail about things that are perhaps a bit more concrete and specific in your daily work today. 448 00:16:46.189 --> 00:16:47.709 So as I understand it, 449 00:16:47.729 --> 00:16:49.429 you took over an existing subsidiary, 450 00:16:49.890 --> 00:16:52.950 but it was one that had to be completely transformed from the ground up. 451 00:16:53.291 --> 00:16:54.591 What was going through your mind? 452 00:16:54.851 --> 00:16:55.431 At that time, 453 00:16:55.471 --> 00:16:56.531 what were you thinking about? 454 00:16:56.612 --> 00:16:59.192 What did you want to achieve and what were your goals? 455 00:16:59.732 --> 00:17:00.893 What did you want to achieve? 456 00:17:01.153 --> 00:17:02.233 I was very lucky because, 457 00:17:02.273 --> 00:17:02.513 yes, 458 00:17:02.593 --> 00:17:05.954 I took over the Daiichi Sankyo France subsidiary in 2019. 459 00:17:06.414 --> 00:17:11.436 There were just under 20 employees who we still had a cardio portfolio, 460 00:17:11.516 --> 00:17:13.256 but mainly for export markets. 461 00:17:13.316 --> 00:17:16.697 So they still had to maintain a minimum level of activity there. 462 00:17:17.257 --> 00:17:19.598 So today we're at over 90, 463 00:17:20.298 --> 00:17:23.379 which is absolutely very interesting and remarkable. 464 00:17:24.796 --> 00:17:25.256 And for me, 465 00:17:26.336 --> 00:17:26.497 well, 466 00:17:26.537 --> 00:17:27.457 that was the challenge. 467 00:17:27.458 --> 00:17:33.981 It was the challenge of rebuilding a subsidiary with an existing team and a team I was going to build and create. 468 00:17:34.941 --> 00:17:46.228 With my own personal ideas and desires that Daiichi Sankyo really allowed me to develop more of a startup mindset with a lot of collective intelligence, 469 00:17:46.308 --> 00:17:47.648 with a lot of empowerment, 470 00:17:47.748 --> 00:17:49.970 with a lot of decentralized decision making, 471 00:17:50.490 --> 00:17:52.151 with a lot of work on oneself. 472 00:17:53.531 --> 00:17:54.271 Because once again, 473 00:17:54.331 --> 00:17:57.192 I think it's starting to be perfectly understood and known. 474 00:17:57.372 --> 00:17:57.652 I mean, 475 00:17:57.732 --> 00:17:59.993 a happy employee is an engaged employee. 476 00:18:00.773 --> 00:18:01.733 And overall, 477 00:18:02.934 --> 00:18:04.114 your mission will be achieved, 478 00:18:04.434 --> 00:18:05.594 or at least your goals, 479 00:18:05.694 --> 00:18:06.295 your ambition. 480 00:18:06.775 --> 00:18:07.235 So for me, 481 00:18:07.555 --> 00:18:08.115 all my work, 482 00:18:08.615 --> 00:18:10.456 besides defining a vision and a plan, 483 00:18:10.916 --> 00:18:14.137 is to recruit people who share this kind of mindset, 484 00:18:14.157 --> 00:18:17.778 who are truly committed to building teams that genuinely want to work together, 485 00:18:18.198 --> 00:18:21.719 and then to ensure throughout the entire year that overall, 486 00:18:21.999 --> 00:18:22.559 as a group, 487 00:18:23.259 --> 00:18:28.122 they continue to be fulfilled and satisfied in doing what we do together as a team. 488 00:18:28.922 --> 00:18:29.102 Well, 489 00:18:29.142 --> 00:18:38.347 I think that perhaps one of my main qualities is quite precisely the ability to simplify complex things and make them easier to understand things. 490 00:18:38.467 --> 00:18:39.228 And in any case, 491 00:18:39.268 --> 00:18:45.611 to express those thoughts and feelings to my teams in a way that is truly authentic and genuine, 492 00:18:46.292 --> 00:18:49.674 but not in a way that comes across as pessimistic or negative, 493 00:18:50.154 --> 00:18:50.734 because there are, 494 00:18:50.754 --> 00:18:51.174 of course, 495 00:18:51.235 --> 00:18:51.915 always things 496 00:18:52.291 --> 00:18:53.132 that are complicated. 497 00:18:53.172 --> 00:18:54.073 There are things that are, 498 00:18:54.913 --> 00:18:57.235 it's certain that Donald Trump's policy today, 499 00:18:57.435 --> 00:18:59.857 or at least the threats that he indeed, 500 00:19:00.818 --> 00:19:06.083 but I honestly think that there are always opportunities to be found in every threat. 501 00:19:07.203 --> 00:19:09.565 I believe there's a significant opportunity for Europe, 502 00:19:09.605 --> 00:19:13.249 especially when the United States stops investing in science. 503 00:19:13.769 --> 00:19:17.332 And so what I try to do is tell myself, 504 00:19:17.892 --> 00:19:18.093 look, 505 00:19:18.573 --> 00:19:20.014 what we see as a difficulty, 506 00:19:20.755 --> 00:19:20.935 what... 507 00:19:21.259 --> 00:19:22.619 opportunity can it create? 508 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:25.120 I don't want to deny the difficulty, 509 00:19:25.180 --> 00:19:27.441 but I'm interested in opening up to the opportunity. 510 00:19:28.842 --> 00:19:30.102 We had time for decisions. 511 00:19:30.482 --> 00:19:32.023 These are long timeframes, 512 00:19:32.024 --> 00:19:33.263 the pharmaceutical industry. 513 00:19:33.603 --> 00:19:33.963 And now, 514 00:19:34.023 --> 00:19:34.423 in fact, 515 00:19:34.523 --> 00:19:37.304 it's an industry that's accelerating on many subjects, 516 00:19:37.764 --> 00:19:40.045 but which nevertheless remains a long-term industry. 517 00:19:41.586 --> 00:19:42.946 So there's a complexity, 518 00:19:43.666 --> 00:19:45.407 another one that's being added. 519 00:19:47.383 --> 00:19:50.867 I'm quite personally convinced that we'll get something positive out of it too, 520 00:19:51.027 --> 00:19:54.010 that we'll manage to evolve our decision-making methods, 521 00:19:54.070 --> 00:19:57.094 that we'll manage to evolve our investment methods. 522 00:19:57.494 --> 00:19:58.075 What's it due to? 523 00:19:58.195 --> 00:19:59.056 Can you give us a bit, 524 00:19:59.176 --> 00:19:59.636 explain? 525 00:20:00.537 --> 00:20:02.059 What's this acceleration due to? 526 00:20:03.606 --> 00:20:04.386 I think it's due to, 527 00:20:04.846 --> 00:20:06.147 there are different subjects. 528 00:20:06.607 --> 00:20:09.248 There are all the geopolitical elements we talked about, 529 00:20:09.328 --> 00:20:13.529 which mean that suddenly we can no longer not have a plan B, 530 00:20:13.689 --> 00:20:16.130 C or D in relation to this instability. 531 00:20:16.550 --> 00:20:16.670 Yeah, 532 00:20:16.790 --> 00:20:18.010 knowing that it'll be plan E. 533 00:20:18.550 --> 00:20:19.010 Exactly, 534 00:20:19.070 --> 00:20:20.131 which is super important. 535 00:20:20.491 --> 00:20:22.571 We can talk about the United States and China, 536 00:20:22.651 --> 00:20:25.972 which are still two drivers today of the industry. 537 00:20:26.452 --> 00:20:27.833 One that wants to stop everything, 538 00:20:27.873 --> 00:20:31.994 that wants to cut prices and then invest much less in science. 539 00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:35.893 and the other that wants to take a major hegemony with Europe in the middle, 540 00:20:35.953 --> 00:20:37.715 battling a bit over things, 541 00:20:38.075 --> 00:20:40.497 it might be time for us to take leadership on other things. 542 00:20:40.537 --> 00:20:43.460 So the geopolitical dimension is important. 543 00:20:43.461 --> 00:20:46.663 The dimension of artificial intelligence will also come, 544 00:20:47.123 --> 00:20:50.106 notably in everything that is the research and development phase, 545 00:20:50.466 --> 00:20:51.967 to revolutionize our way of... 546 00:20:52.347 --> 00:20:52.908 It gives time, 547 00:20:52.988 --> 00:20:53.268 I'd say. 548 00:20:53.609 --> 00:20:54.249 It accelerates, 549 00:20:54.289 --> 00:20:55.050 but it gives time too. 550 00:20:57.378 --> 00:20:58.359 It's going to accelerate. 551 00:20:58.419 --> 00:21:00.940 It's certainly going to increase the number of competitors, 552 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.201 the number of people who will invest in this industry. 553 00:21:04.382 --> 00:21:13.707 So your ability to be on the market as quickly as possible will be an element that will be primordial in the definition of your business model. 554 00:21:13.827 --> 00:21:15.848 That's an element that's also extremely important. 555 00:21:16.229 --> 00:21:16.569 And then, 556 00:21:17.269 --> 00:21:17.729 once again, 557 00:21:18.150 --> 00:21:21.792 budgetary crises will require us to be much more agile, 558 00:21:21.992 --> 00:21:22.972 much more reactive, 559 00:21:23.152 --> 00:21:24.193 and I even think, 560 00:21:24.233 --> 00:21:24.693 above all, 561 00:21:24.773 --> 00:21:25.694 much more proactive. 562 00:21:26.274 --> 00:21:28.695 Because today we're mostly very reactive. 563 00:21:28.916 --> 00:21:37.841 And so these are elements that will impose a strong effort on us to redefine a business model that must continue to reward risk-taking, 564 00:21:38.281 --> 00:21:39.922 but no longer in the same way. 565 00:21:42.563 --> 00:21:42.763 Okay. 566 00:21:42.823 --> 00:21:43.304 In any case, 567 00:21:43.364 --> 00:21:44.384 it's going to be fascinating. 568 00:21:44.444 --> 00:21:45.325 It's going to be great. 569 00:21:45.705 --> 00:21:46.145 It can be, 570 00:21:46.285 --> 00:21:46.445 yeah, 571 00:21:46.706 --> 00:21:47.086 for sure. 572 00:21:47.226 --> 00:21:47.746 Absolutely. 573 00:21:48.186 --> 00:21:49.087 What would make it not be? 574 00:21:49.667 --> 00:21:50.848 That we don't want to go there. 575 00:21:51.228 --> 00:21:51.848 We're afraid to go. 576 00:21:52.249 --> 00:21:52.429 Yes, 577 00:21:52.430 --> 00:21:53.169 of course. 578 00:21:53.170 --> 00:21:54.610 But there will be countries that go there. 579 00:21:56.598 --> 00:21:56.858 Here, 580 00:21:56.998 --> 00:21:59.320 I'm mainly talking about the labs and companies. 581 00:22:00.120 --> 00:22:00.540 Basically, 582 00:22:00.600 --> 00:22:01.681 today we have a business. 583 00:22:02.121 --> 00:22:03.182 They don't want to change their... 584 00:22:03.622 --> 00:22:03.842 Well, 585 00:22:04.262 --> 00:22:05.043 it's always the same. 586 00:22:05.103 --> 00:22:06.563 You've seen it in many sectors, 587 00:22:06.624 --> 00:22:06.884 right? 588 00:22:07.224 --> 00:22:07.384 Well, 589 00:22:07.444 --> 00:22:08.284 giving up on Europe, 590 00:22:08.424 --> 00:22:08.845 basically. 591 00:22:09.225 --> 00:22:09.425 Yes, 592 00:22:09.505 --> 00:22:10.586 but it's... 593 00:22:11.686 --> 00:22:12.147 Today, 594 00:22:12.687 --> 00:22:22.212 there are pillars of the definition of our business model that have made this industry wealthy and thus innovation for society for X years that are currently, 595 00:22:22.292 --> 00:22:22.492 well, 596 00:22:22.592 --> 00:22:22.972 shifting. 597 00:22:23.933 --> 00:22:25.774 Either we stay saying to ourselves, 598 00:22:26.490 --> 00:22:26.610 No, 599 00:22:26.670 --> 00:22:27.431 it mustn't stop. 600 00:22:27.471 --> 00:22:28.571 It has to stay like this. 601 00:22:28.831 --> 00:22:31.913 And I fear that won't work or we manage to anticipate, 602 00:22:31.993 --> 00:22:34.754 even if it means anyway to choose is to renounce. 603 00:22:34.834 --> 00:22:35.054 Right. 604 00:22:35.114 --> 00:22:41.777 Even if it means giving up certain things to continue to flourish in a different way of of seeing our industry. 605 00:22:42.297 --> 00:22:43.478 And I think that will work. 606 00:22:43.898 --> 00:22:49.600 Don't you have any models in mind of people who who are already doing it in the pharmaceutical industry? 607 00:22:50.101 --> 00:22:50.321 Well, 608 00:22:50.661 --> 00:22:51.321 I'm not enough, 609 00:22:51.401 --> 00:22:52.882 perhaps today. 610 00:22:53.410 --> 00:23:10.279 uh aware or really in the inner workings of the the big labs or others to know who already has this well is working on it i imagine everyone is actually it's not so much that i think everyone sees it what's harder is making the decision and it's i 611 00:23:10.299 --> 00:23:21.645 think it's a bit like everything the first one who makes the decision we'll have one or we'll have lost that's always the issue it reminds me of the times when we had tons of medical sales networks. 612 00:23:22.206 --> 00:23:22.526 And then... 613 00:23:23.034 --> 00:23:24.675 As soon as one person put one in, 614 00:23:24.695 --> 00:23:25.836 then another would put one in. 615 00:23:26.396 --> 00:23:33.480 And then everyone realized that it was ridiculous and that it destroyed the value relationship with the prescriber as well. 616 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:34.701 But everyone said, 617 00:23:34.861 --> 00:23:35.041 wait, 618 00:23:35.141 --> 00:23:36.422 if I remove one, 619 00:23:36.482 --> 00:23:36.642 well, 620 00:23:36.702 --> 00:23:38.103 I'm going to lose my share of voice. 621 00:23:38.563 --> 00:23:39.744 So there was this... 622 00:23:40.244 --> 00:23:42.125 So would it be a new lab that's going to do it? 623 00:23:42.445 --> 00:23:42.565 No, 624 00:23:42.685 --> 00:23:43.306 I don't think so. 625 00:23:44.066 --> 00:23:44.186 No, 626 00:23:44.326 --> 00:23:44.446 no, 627 00:23:44.586 --> 00:23:47.608 I think that I think there are leaders who are visionary enough and... 628 00:23:48.268 --> 00:23:49.589 I don't know how to say it politely, 629 00:23:49.689 --> 00:23:50.870 but actually... 630 00:23:51.490 --> 00:23:51.670 well, 631 00:23:51.750 --> 00:23:54.792 an idea is worth nothing until it's been at least executed. 632 00:23:55.112 --> 00:23:56.172 And when it is executed, 633 00:23:56.173 --> 00:23:58.013 the execution will be completely different. 634 00:23:58.513 --> 00:24:01.034 So then we can play for time. 635 00:24:01.714 --> 00:24:02.295 We can wait. 636 00:24:02.375 --> 00:24:02.515 But, 637 00:24:03.495 --> 00:24:03.715 well, 638 00:24:04.075 --> 00:24:05.176 it remains to be invented. 639 00:24:05.216 --> 00:24:07.717 It's like there might be several models, 640 00:24:07.777 --> 00:24:08.077 actually, 641 00:24:08.157 --> 00:24:08.357 even. 642 00:24:08.777 --> 00:24:10.718 I'm even convinced there will be several models. 643 00:24:11.458 --> 00:24:12.119 That's for sure. 644 00:24:12.439 --> 00:24:13.879 Here we're talking about one farmer, 645 00:24:13.959 --> 00:24:16.901 but there may be several formats or models to be decided. 646 00:24:17.281 --> 00:24:18.021 As I was saying, 647 00:24:19.662 --> 00:24:19.782 the... 648 00:24:20.594 --> 00:24:27.356 the drugs we're going to put on the market won't more and more and more be on a restricted target for which you'll have a specific contribution. 649 00:24:27.836 --> 00:24:31.857 And so that means a different financing logic than what we see today. 650 00:24:32.377 --> 00:24:35.418 There are many different things that will continue to evolve. 651 00:24:35.778 --> 00:24:43.620 My feeling is that we really need to be more proactive in thoughtfully designing this horizon. 652 00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:44.340 Yeah, 653 00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:44.661 yeah, 654 00:24:44.662 --> 00:24:44.861 I know. 655 00:24:45.141 --> 00:24:46.061 But be attentive, 656 00:24:46.481 --> 00:24:49.102 just because there are others out there who aren't really waiting. 657 00:24:49.422 --> 00:24:49.602 Yeah, 658 00:24:49.782 --> 00:24:49.922 yeah. 659 00:24:51.426 --> 00:24:53.088 I'm talking about the industry in general. 660 00:24:53.089 --> 00:24:53.769 Yeah. 661 00:24:53.849 --> 00:25:00.395 I think governments and others at some point face so much pressure from all sides that we have to be a force for proposals. 662 00:25:00.776 --> 00:25:01.376 And once again, 663 00:25:01.516 --> 00:25:02.838 I am deeply convinced of it. 664 00:25:04.034 --> 00:25:06.776 I'm a citizen first before being the GM of Daiichi Sankyo, 665 00:25:06.936 --> 00:25:10.118 which I'm extremely happy about and which takes up a lot of my time. 666 00:25:10.238 --> 00:25:11.159 I'm a citizen first. 667 00:25:11.219 --> 00:25:12.940 I'm first an inhabitant of this world. 668 00:25:13.060 --> 00:25:13.800 Thank you very much, 669 00:25:13.881 --> 00:25:14.241 Benoit, 670 00:25:14.301 --> 00:25:14.681 for this, 671 00:25:14.741 --> 00:25:15.101 I think, 672 00:25:15.261 --> 00:25:16.462 very open discussion. 673 00:25:16.982 --> 00:25:17.603 In any case, 674 00:25:17.643 --> 00:25:18.984 it leads us to reflect, 675 00:25:19.104 --> 00:25:21.085 to feel concerned already by an era, 676 00:25:21.265 --> 00:25:22.005 even if it is, 677 00:25:22.706 --> 00:25:23.767 because even if it's complex, 678 00:25:23.847 --> 00:25:24.327 we are also, 679 00:25:24.487 --> 00:25:24.647 well, 680 00:25:24.667 --> 00:25:24.927 you know, 681 00:25:24.967 --> 00:25:26.548 perhaps also responsible for it. 682 00:25:27.049 --> 00:25:27.549 Absolutely. 683 00:25:27.769 --> 00:25:28.289 Absolutely. 684 00:25:28.590 --> 00:25:29.010 So it's... 685 00:25:29.450 --> 00:25:29.630 Well, 686 00:25:29.830 --> 00:25:33.192 learning to appreciate what we like and to defend it perhaps as well. 687 00:25:33.332 --> 00:25:33.732 Thank you. 688 00:25:35.513 --> 00:25:35.813 Thank you, 689 00:25:35.833 --> 00:25:36.173 Natalie. 690 00:25:37.273 --> 00:25:38.374 Don't hesitate to share, 691 00:25:38.574 --> 00:25:38.754 well, 692 00:25:38.914 --> 00:25:40.155 what you thought of it with Benoit. 693 00:25:40.595 --> 00:25:43.736 Where can people write to you to tell you what they thought of it? 694 00:25:45.897 --> 00:25:46.017 Oh, 695 00:25:46.037 --> 00:25:46.217 well, 696 00:25:46.317 --> 00:25:47.878 on LinkedIn without any problem. 697 00:25:48.298 --> 00:25:50.199 And then later via my email. 698 00:25:50.259 --> 00:25:50.399 Well, 699 00:25:50.459 --> 00:25:52.720 there's no with pleasure even to discuss it. 700 00:25:54.541 --> 00:25:55.161 Thank you very much, 701 00:25:55.221 --> 00:25:55.561 Benoit. 702 00:25:55.661 --> 00:25:56.142 See you soon. 703 00:25:56.382 --> 00:25:56.682 Thank you, 704 00:25:56.702 --> 00:25:57.022 Natalie. 705 00:25:57.914 --> 00:25:59.095 If price reflects value, 706 00:25:59.115 --> 00:26:00.036 who defines value? 707 00:26:00.576 --> 00:26:01.877 Is it the national governments, 708 00:26:02.078 --> 00:26:03.179 the individual patients, 709 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:04.340 or the healthcare industry? 710 00:26:04.900 --> 00:26:07.983 And what happens when innovation is no longer new but essential? 711 00:26:10.245 --> 00:26:11.265 In the next episode, 712 00:26:11.425 --> 00:26:15.209 we move away from cutting-edge oncology to talk about mature medicines, 713 00:26:15.589 --> 00:26:19.092 where access depends less on price than on the viability of production. 714 00:26:19.632 --> 00:26:20.893 In the comments section below, 715 00:26:21.234 --> 00:26:26.098 I invite you to share your thoughts on who you think should define the criteria for a medicine's value.