WEBVTT

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Hey,

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this is Zach from Word and Out Marketers,

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and today's episode is brought to you by Product Marketing Alliance,

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your go-to community for leveling up your product marketing career.

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PMA's Product Marketing Summits offer an incredible chance to connect with fellow PMMs,

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hear from industry leaders at companies like Google,

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Uber,

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and TikTok,

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and take your career to the next level.

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Want to see when a summit is coming to a city near you?

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Head on over to world.productmarketingalliance.com.

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And don't forget to use the code not marketers 15.

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I repeat not marketers

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15 for 15%

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off your next ticket.

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Follow them on LinkedIn at product marketing aligns.

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We are a podcast for product marketers and B2B SaaS who feel misunderstood of what they do.

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From someone who truly gets what you do.

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And basically help you feel less like a misfit to be an unenormable in your role.

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Hello everyone and welcome to a very special episode of Word on Marketers.

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Before we get introduced to our amazing guests,

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it's another season and you need to make sure that the right misfits are under the right mic.

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So

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I'll get started.

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Gabougeau,

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sales deck intern.

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I just do sales deck until I die and I'll pass it off to my co-host.

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Now the sales water boy.

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Let's pass it over to Eric.

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Yeah and we're now for the third season.

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We've got promotions.

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I am Eric Holland,

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the Franken-manager.

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Thank you.

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So if you're in product marketing,

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I hope you heard of her because otherwise,

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we care about you.

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You need to get out of your house and really push your learnings.

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But we're very happy of introducing

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April Dunford.

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April Dunford is known as the queen of positioning,

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practical positioning for startups.

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She worked at household names like IBM.

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She also wrote two amazing books.

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And

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I'm trying not to fangirl a bit here because obviously awesome was what made me love product marketing,

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what introduced me to practical positioning,

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and of course,

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sales pitch and everything else you're doing.

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So

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April, we're very excited to having you on the show.

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Well,

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I'm very happy to be on the show.

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So thank you for having me.

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And a quick side note,

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sales pitch made me realize that we're not marketers.

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So this little preview of our show right there.

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we have one question that we ask every single guest it's very we like to kick off every episode this way and since gab has just the powerful mustache and the french

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canadian accent we let him do the honors thank you april are product marketers actually marketers why or why not i feel like there's an answer that i'm

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supposed to be given here,

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given the t-shirts and the name of the show and all the rest of it.

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But I'm going to give you my actual take on this.

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I think product marketers are marketers.

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I think product marketers are marketers.

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I think we could dig into that,

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but I'm going to say,

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yes,

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they're marketers.

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What's your point of view on that answer?

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Curious to hear more behind it.

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Well,

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so here's the thing.

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I think product marketing,

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like I...

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started out working at tiny little startups.

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And a lot of times in a tiny little startup,

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there is no product marketer,

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right?

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There isn't a person with that title,

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but we are still doing product marketing and that function is getting done in the marketing department.

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So when I think about things that a product marketer is typically responsible for,

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positioning being one of those,

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that positioning stuff is typically happening in the marketing department.

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So even if we don't have product marketing as a function,

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we do have product marketing stuff going.

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Like,

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so for example,

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product marketers are often the person that is working in between product and marketing to help us build content and help us understand what are the value of certain features?

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How do we understand these features from a customer's perspective?

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That's product marketing.

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If a product marketer doesn't exist,

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then somebody in marketing is going to be doing that.

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Same thing with

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Things like sales support.

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A lot of the companies I worked in,

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we had a sales team helping with the pitch deck and building the demo and doing things like that.

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Again,

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if we didn't have a product marketer,

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marketing would be doing that stuff until we got big enough that we would hire a product marketer and then product marketer would be doing that stuff.

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We got really big.

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We'd start splitting off pieces of that as well.

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And we'd have sales enablement as a separate function,

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which may or may not report to marketing.

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But yeah,

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that's where I come from on that stuff.

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I mean,

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I was a product marketer and I didn't grow up to be a product manager.

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I grew up to be a VP marketing.

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That's a really good point of view.

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I guess my question would be for those who aren't.

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That sounds like you're like,

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yeah,

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that's crap.

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Well,

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anyone who doesn't agree,

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I have to think their point of view is crap.

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Right.

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Right.

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It doesn't.

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If everyone wants to stand in the middle,

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we're not we're not doing the right thing.

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But

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I guess my question would to you would be then the job has to get done.

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Right.

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And like in my experience in the early startups,

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it was actually getting done by the CEO and the CTO.

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Oh,

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that that is true.

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So not necessarily falling in the marketing hands,

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but that's that's not really my question.

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My question would be more on the lines of like,

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OK,

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so you're not a disciplined product marketer.

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You haven't taken the

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April Dunford's class of positioning and you've been tasked to do that work.

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As of my opinion,

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that's it's similar to like anything else like.

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I can hire someone to do my accounting,

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but I'd rather have an accountant do my accounting for me than just someone who's good at math.

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So that's kind of my take on like,

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I don't necessarily think it's a good practice just to let someone do the work if the result's going to be...

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Oh,

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you mean that like to have someone do the work when there isn't a specialist there?

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Or not even a specialist,

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just like,

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you know,

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from my perspective,

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the CEO should be like,

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yeah,

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you should do this positioning work.

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Have you ever done positioning before?

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No.

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Cool.

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Go take this class.

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Right.

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Or just some indication of that positioning is an actual expertise.

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Like it is a skill set and a muscle that needs to be flexed.

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And that goes to other things like pricing and so on and so forth.

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But yeah,

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I mean,

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you're preaching to the choir there.

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Like like what we like,

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you know,

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when we if we think about how this gets done in a startup,

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like the CEO might be doing positioning.

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But,

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but.

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But generally,

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the founder or the CEO has no idea what that word actually means.

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And their perception of what they're doing is often that

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I'm not doing positioning.

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I'm thinking about market strategy.

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I'm thinking about,

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and actually,

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they wouldn't even call it market strategy.

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They call it the business strategy.

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How are we going to win in the market?

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And that is like...

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you want the CEO to have a perspective on that.

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And I think you'd die if the CEO didn't have a perspective on that.

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The CEO is also thinking about division and,

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you know,

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where the thing's going to go longer term.

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And they're out,

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if they're venture-backed,

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they're out pitching to investors to try to get investment,

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and they're trying to figure that out too.

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And so what you'll see in,

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like,

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in little startups,

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where there isn't a very senior person in marketing,

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so we don't have a vice president of marketing,

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maybe we got a director level person or somebody who's focused strictly on lead gen and they're not really focused on anything else,

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then who's gonna do it?

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It's gonna end up being the CEO or the founder or whoever.

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If you've got a senior person in marketing though and they're not involved in positioning,

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I would be squinting my eyes at them and saying,

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how'd you get that job?

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because

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I'm not sure anybody,

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once they've got to a vice president level or certainly not a CMO,

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is going to not understand that we can't build campaigns on top of positioning that isn't solid.

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Now,

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is the CEO going to have an opinion about that?

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Absolutely.

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And in fact,

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I would never attempt to do positioning without having the CEO involved.

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That would be crazy,

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in my opinion.

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So obviously they're going to be involved.

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but

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You know,

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it doesn't mean that the CEO cooks it up in a vacuum and then throws it over the wall to the rest of us.

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If that's happening,

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then we're,

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you know,

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we might be in trouble there,

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too.

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Clarifying question.

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So we all know if you walk up on that PMA stage,

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you're going to give this talk,

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April.

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And people are like,

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oh,

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my gosh,

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I'm inspired.

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But

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I'm not April.

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I can't walk into my CEO's Zoom call and be like,

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hey.

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you and I partner together and work on this positioning because for maybe some founding PMMs,

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they might not have that April Dunford level of influence or that authority.

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So that how,

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if I'm a founding PMM and I'm at an early stage startup,

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like I'm curious,

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like from your experience,

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like how did you build that influence to help navigate that conversation with your CEO before you were the April Dunford?

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Yeah,

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yeah.

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Because,

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you know,

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I was that too,

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right?

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Like,

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nobody cared what I had to say about anything at the beginning.

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Even at the end,

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to be honest,

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like,

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you know,

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like,

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like,

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it doesn't get you that far with the founder,

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to be honest.

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Here's,

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here's how I used to look at it.

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And this was true even when I just,

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even,

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you know,

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when I wasn't at PMM,

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this was true when I was a vice president of marketing,

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you know,

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like I would get hired to come in and the CEO would be like,

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wave that marketing magic wand April and get the leads and the revenue going like this up to the right and,

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you know,

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and just get it done.

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And I would come in and my worry was that I would be building stuff on top of mushy positioning.

267
00:10:37.126 --> 00:10:38.287
which is foolish.

268
00:10:38.788 --> 00:10:46.033
So if I'm out there building campaigns and I'm going to be writing messaging and I'm going to be doing all this other stuff and I'm going to like,

269
00:10:46.173 --> 00:10:46.439
you know,

270
00:10:46.517 --> 00:10:49.056
fix the pitch deck and all the other things I'm going to do,

271
00:10:49.822 --> 00:10:50.400
but we're,

272
00:10:50.478 --> 00:10:50.720
you know,

273
00:10:50.783 --> 00:10:54.002
but we don't really know why we win in the market.

274
00:10:54.064 --> 00:10:57.423
We don't really know who our competitors are.

275
00:10:57.424 --> 00:11:00.236
We don't really understand what our differentiated value is.

276
00:11:00.345 --> 00:11:02.611
And now all that stuff is going to be junk.

277
00:11:03.330 --> 00:11:03.455
So

278
00:11:03.830 --> 00:11:05.158
I would come in and Now,

279
00:11:05.377 --> 00:11:06.095
I can't.

280
00:11:07.054 --> 00:11:10.276
I have never once been successful at coming in,

281
00:11:10.597 --> 00:11:12.441
walking into the CEO's job,

282
00:11:12.620 --> 00:11:14.003
even as the vice president.

283
00:11:14.323 --> 00:11:16.480
I can't walk into the CEO founder and say,

284
00:11:16.784 --> 00:11:17.026
hey,

285
00:11:17.487 --> 00:11:18.144
you know what?

286
00:11:19.206 --> 00:11:24.292
I think this positioning is crap and we should fix it.

287
00:11:25.370 --> 00:11:28.839
It's a bit like waltzing in there and saying their baby is ugly.

288
00:11:29.698 --> 00:11:31.698
You're not going to get very far with that.

289
00:11:32.386 --> 00:11:33.464
So I would never do that.

290
00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:33.714
I mean,

291
00:11:33.761 --> 00:11:36.042
I might've tried to do that when I was junior and stupid.

292
00:11:36.206 --> 00:11:39.970
But you'll quickly discover that nobody has that influence,

293
00:11:40.069 --> 00:11:40.310
right?

294
00:11:40.450 --> 00:11:42.532
Except certain people have that.

295
00:11:42.571 --> 00:11:46.618
You know who has the influence to go in and walk in and tell the CEO their baby's ugly?

296
00:11:46.735 --> 00:11:47.735
The CEO's parent.

297
00:11:48.235 --> 00:11:48.501
April

298
00:11:51.321 --> 00:11:53.048
Dunford.

299
00:11:54.204 --> 00:11:55.188
It's not true.

300
00:11:55.563 --> 00:11:57.532
Like even now as a consultant,

301
00:11:57.985 --> 00:12:02.845
like the companies don't come to me until they've already decided they have a problem.

302
00:12:03.794 --> 00:12:07.077
April doesn't go and convince them they have a problem because that's impossible.

303
00:12:09.479 --> 00:12:11.600
So vice president of sales though,

304
00:12:11.623 --> 00:12:12.459
that's different.

305
00:12:13.381 --> 00:12:16.123
So if the vice president of sales comes in and says,

306
00:12:16.545 --> 00:12:18.147
we can't sell this stuff,

307
00:12:18.366 --> 00:12:19.108
I'm sorry.

308
00:12:19.952 --> 00:12:22.186
The CEO might not love that message,

309
00:12:22.280 --> 00:12:26.092
but they listen because rubber meets the road over in sales.

310
00:12:26.139 --> 00:12:27.202
We don't make our numbers.

311
00:12:28.577 --> 00:12:29.295
We're all going to die.

312
00:12:29.780 --> 00:12:31.655
So what I would do is I would come.

313
00:12:31.854 --> 00:12:33.235
I'm the brand new VP marketing.

314
00:12:33.475 --> 00:12:36.317
And I would walk over to sales and I'd say,

315
00:12:36.579 --> 00:12:37.399
I'm just here.

316
00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:38.602
I'm stupid.

317
00:12:38.641 --> 00:12:39.704
I don't know anything,

318
00:12:40.001 --> 00:12:40.485
but you know,

319
00:12:40.486 --> 00:12:41.243
I'm brand new.

320
00:12:41.868 --> 00:12:47.751
And I would just like to sit around on calls and talk to the reps about what's happening on these calls.

321
00:12:48.493 --> 00:12:53.118
So I'd sit in on the calls and I'd be listening for the signs of weak positioning.

322
00:12:53.180 --> 00:13:01.383
And so the signs of weak positioning is customer prospect gets on the call and the rep is pitching something.

323
00:13:01.730 --> 00:13:03.853
And the prospect is making this face,

324
00:13:03.911 --> 00:13:04.192
you know,

325
00:13:04.333 --> 00:13:04.593
like,

326
00:13:04.872 --> 00:13:06.716
I don't understand thing you're talking about,

327
00:13:06.775 --> 00:13:07.056
man.

328
00:13:07.216 --> 00:13:07.396
Like,

329
00:13:07.775 --> 00:13:07.915
and,

330
00:13:08.056 --> 00:13:11.638
and a lot of times you'd hear this phrase where you'd get on and you'd be like

331
00:13:11.997 --> 00:13:13.317
10 minutes into the call.

332
00:13:13.903 --> 00:13:14.802
And the prospect is like,

333
00:13:14.803 --> 00:13:14.903
no,

334
00:13:14.904 --> 00:13:15.005
no,

335
00:13:15.006 --> 00:13:15.122
no,

336
00:13:15.146 --> 00:13:15.263
no,

337
00:13:15.286 --> 00:13:15.403
no,

338
00:13:15.427 --> 00:13:15.544
no.

339
00:13:15.622 --> 00:13:16.107
Back it up,

340
00:13:16.325 --> 00:13:16.685
back it up.

341
00:13:16.708 --> 00:13:17.528
Go back to the beginning.

342
00:13:17.771 --> 00:13:18.739
What did you say at the beginning?

343
00:13:18.786 --> 00:13:18.942
Like,

344
00:13:19.192 --> 00:13:19.567
cause I'm just,

345
00:13:19.583 --> 00:13:21.036
I'm not quite getting it.

346
00:13:21.396 --> 00:13:24.067
And so you can see this profound confusion,

347
00:13:24.146 --> 00:13:26.692
like where a customer can't even figure out what you are,

348
00:13:27.067 --> 00:13:28.349
like can't even figure out what you are.

349
00:13:28.380 --> 00:13:29.177
So that's one sign.

350
00:13:29.317 --> 00:13:30.364
Second sign you get is this,

351
00:13:30.864 --> 00:13:31.052
where.

352
00:13:31.286 --> 00:13:32.788
prospect comes on and they say,

353
00:13:33.429 --> 00:13:33.749
oh yeah,

354
00:13:33.828 --> 00:13:33.988
yeah.

355
00:13:34.029 --> 00:13:36.230
So you guys are just like Salesforce and you're not,

356
00:13:36.390 --> 00:13:37.734
you're nothing like Salesforce.

357
00:13:37.792 --> 00:13:37.992
Like,

358
00:13:38.413 --> 00:13:39.093
and so they're,

359
00:13:39.312 --> 00:13:42.601
they've put you in a bucket that you don't belong in.

360
00:13:43.257 --> 00:13:44.562
And that's a really big problem.

361
00:13:44.563 --> 00:13:45.359
And then the rep will say,

362
00:13:45.617 --> 00:13:45.742
no,

363
00:13:45.757 --> 00:13:45.882
no,

364
00:13:45.883 --> 00:13:45.999
no,

365
00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:46.117
no,

366
00:13:46.140 --> 00:13:46.257
no,

367
00:13:46.258 --> 00:13:46.757
we're not that.

368
00:13:46.781 --> 00:13:46.898
No,

369
00:13:46.921 --> 00:13:47.038
no,

370
00:13:47.140 --> 00:13:48.070
let's go back to here.

371
00:13:48.085 --> 00:13:48.195
No,

372
00:13:48.242 --> 00:13:49.648
we actually do this other thing.

373
00:13:49.726 --> 00:13:50.492
And it's like this,

374
00:13:50.570 --> 00:13:50.820
you know?

375
00:13:50.929 --> 00:13:51.163
And so,

376
00:13:51.820 --> 00:13:53.320
so that's a sign your positioning sucks.

377
00:13:53.726 --> 00:13:57.304
The other one you'll get is this real pushback,

378
00:13:57.773 --> 00:13:58.445
like not,

379
00:13:58.648 --> 00:14:00.007
not even so much pushback on.

380
00:14:00.334 --> 00:14:01.295
pricing,

381
00:14:01.795 --> 00:14:02.716
but a bit like,

382
00:14:03.337 --> 00:14:04.556
why would I pay for this?

383
00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:05.837
Like I get what it is,

384
00:14:05.900 --> 00:14:06.220
but like,

385
00:14:06.259 --> 00:14:07.041
why would I pay for it?

386
00:14:07.060 --> 00:14:08.525
Can I just do it as a spreadsheet?

387
00:14:08.822 --> 00:14:11.283
Or like I'm using in my accounting package to do it right now.

388
00:14:11.447 --> 00:14:12.689
Can I just do it with that?

389
00:14:13.267 --> 00:14:15.666
And so if I started seeing that stuff,

390
00:14:16.830 --> 00:14:20.158
then I would go and have lunch with the vice president of sales.

391
00:14:20.595 --> 00:14:21.673
And so I'm like,

392
00:14:21.674 --> 00:14:22.376
I'm new here,

393
00:14:22.830 --> 00:14:26.017
but I've been listening on a bunch of calls and I've been talking to your reps.

394
00:14:26.298 --> 00:14:27.095
And here's what I see.

395
00:14:27.205 --> 00:14:28.720
People don't understand what we are.

396
00:14:29.098 --> 00:14:30.900
People are comparing us to the wrong thing.

397
00:14:31.180 --> 00:14:32.881
People really don't understand the value.

398
00:14:33.241 --> 00:14:34.303
Do you see that?

399
00:14:34.604 --> 00:14:35.745
Do you think that's true?

400
00:14:36.206 --> 00:14:36.327
Now,

401
00:14:36.366 --> 00:14:37.346
if this is true,

402
00:14:37.885 --> 00:14:39.831
your vice president of sales sees it.

403
00:14:39.948 --> 00:14:40.971
He sees it every day.

404
00:14:42.213 --> 00:14:44.112
And so when I'm having that lunch,

405
00:14:44.690 --> 00:14:45.909
the vice president of sales is gonna go,

406
00:14:45.987 --> 00:14:46.393
yeah,

407
00:14:46.456 --> 00:14:46.643
man,

408
00:14:46.659 --> 00:14:47.596
this is a problem.

409
00:14:47.643 --> 00:14:50.799
And they'll probably blame it on the product or they'll blame it on something.

410
00:14:50.800 --> 00:14:51.112
They'll say,

411
00:14:51.174 --> 00:14:51.299
oh,

412
00:14:51.315 --> 00:14:52.643
this is just really hard to sell.

413
00:14:52.659 --> 00:14:53.065
Or they'll say,

414
00:14:53.066 --> 00:14:53.174
oh,

415
00:14:53.175 --> 00:14:54.456
the market's really crowded or whatever.

416
00:14:54.502 --> 00:14:55.237
And I'll say,

417
00:14:55.784 --> 00:14:56.002
look,

418
00:14:56.362 --> 00:14:57.627
over in marketing land,

419
00:14:57.858 --> 00:15:07.318
we have this concept and it's called positioning and here's what it is have we ever done a formal positioning process in this company and the answer is almost always no

420
00:15:08.392 --> 00:15:08.833
And I'll say,

421
00:15:09.974 --> 00:15:13.539
I'm not saying the positioning is bad and I don't know what it would look like if it was better,

422
00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:15.417
but I think it's worth,

423
00:15:15.980 --> 00:15:17.539
given what I'm hearing on the sales side,

424
00:15:17.562 --> 00:15:18.781
I think it's worth looking at it.

425
00:15:19.226 --> 00:15:20.406
I think we should just look at it.

426
00:15:21.804 --> 00:15:25.453
Then I would go have the exact same conversation with the person running product.

427
00:15:26.390 --> 00:15:26.796
Same thing.

428
00:15:26.890 --> 00:15:27.265
I'd be like,

429
00:15:27.266 --> 00:15:27.390
hey,

430
00:15:28.187 --> 00:15:30.531
I'm over in sales and here's what I'm seeing.

431
00:15:30.890 --> 00:15:33.171
I'm seeing we get compared to things we shouldn't be compared to.

432
00:15:33.671 --> 00:15:34.375
I'm seeing this,

433
00:15:34.437 --> 00:15:35.062
I'm seeing that.

434
00:15:35.421 --> 00:15:36.296
Do you see that?

435
00:15:36.343 --> 00:15:36.546
I mean,

436
00:15:36.578 --> 00:15:37.765
you spend a lot of time with.

437
00:15:37.766 --> 00:15:38.277
with customers.

438
00:15:38.278 --> 00:15:39.018
Do you see that?

439
00:15:39.358 --> 00:15:41.740
This general confusion about what we are and whatever.

440
00:15:41.842 --> 00:15:42.240
And again,

441
00:15:42.361 --> 00:15:43.303
if it is a problem,

442
00:15:43.764 --> 00:15:44.643
product sees it too.

443
00:15:45.022 --> 00:15:47.209
They might not necessarily think it's positioning.

444
00:15:47.225 --> 00:15:47.686
They might say,

445
00:15:48.068 --> 00:15:48.350
well,

446
00:15:48.428 --> 00:15:48.670
you know,

447
00:15:48.671 --> 00:15:51.693
we have this roadmap and once we get these five things built,

448
00:15:51.709 --> 00:15:53.553
then everything's going to be perfect and whatever.

449
00:15:53.615 --> 00:15:53.990
And I'm like,

450
00:15:54.225 --> 00:15:54.350
yeah,

451
00:15:54.412 --> 00:15:54.631
okay.

452
00:15:54.693 --> 00:15:56.553
But while we're building those things every day,

453
00:15:56.568 --> 00:15:59.100
we have to do deals and we suck at doing deals.

454
00:15:59.162 --> 00:16:02.334
So maybe we could fix this in marketing land.

455
00:16:02.647 --> 00:16:04.647
Sometimes we can fix this by tightening up.

456
00:16:04.688 --> 00:16:28.574
the positioning have we ever done a positioning exercise at this company and the answer is almost always no then i go to the ceo so i go to the ceo and i'm not coming in there saying you got to do this because i said and i'm you know the smartest marketer on the planet i go in and i say look i'm dumb i don't know anything i'm brand new here i don't know a thing but here's what i'm hearing in sales calls i'm

457
00:16:28.668 --> 00:16:33.121
seeing nobody understands our value i'm seeing the sales calls really

458
00:16:33.892 --> 00:16:36.674
rough at the beginning because people really don't understand what we are.

459
00:16:37.154 --> 00:16:38.338
And I'm seeing this,

460
00:16:38.416 --> 00:16:40.900
we're getting compared to people we shouldn't be compared to.

461
00:16:41.658 --> 00:16:45.768
And so before I go and spend a lot of effort doing this,

462
00:16:45.986 --> 00:16:49.369
I think it would make sense to get a little team together,

463
00:16:49.830 --> 00:16:49.986
you,

464
00:16:50.455 --> 00:16:50.564
me,

465
00:16:51.002 --> 00:16:51.471
product,

466
00:16:51.564 --> 00:16:52.002
sales,

467
00:16:52.377 --> 00:16:53.189
let's get together.

468
00:16:54.018 --> 00:16:58.455
And we'll just go through this little exercise and see if we can't tighten up that positioning and make it better.

469
00:16:58.674 --> 00:16:59.924
And what does the CEO say?

470
00:17:00.377 --> 00:17:00.939
They don't say,

471
00:17:01.221 --> 00:17:01.627
oh yeah,

472
00:17:01.674 --> 00:17:01.955
April,

473
00:17:02.002 --> 00:17:02.658
let's do that.

474
00:17:02.924 --> 00:17:03.377
They say,

475
00:17:03.792 --> 00:17:06.356
what does John over in sales think about this?

476
00:17:06.516 --> 00:17:07.096
And I say,

477
00:17:07.516 --> 00:17:07.758
gosh,

478
00:17:07.797 --> 00:17:08.676
I have no idea.

479
00:17:08.777 --> 00:17:09.637
Let's call him.

480
00:17:10.219 --> 00:17:11.899
And then we get John on the phone.

481
00:17:12.258 --> 00:17:12.938
And John says,

482
00:17:13.485 --> 00:17:13.641
yeah,

483
00:17:13.719 --> 00:17:13.922
man,

484
00:17:13.923 --> 00:17:15.781
I've been thinking about this for a long time.

485
00:17:16.461 --> 00:17:16.688
And

486
00:17:17.149 --> 00:17:17.508
I think,

487
00:17:17.586 --> 00:17:18.024
yeah,

488
00:17:18.025 --> 00:17:19.906
it would be a good idea because I already sold him.

489
00:17:22.125 --> 00:17:24.625
And then they call product and I've already sold them too.

490
00:17:24.735 --> 00:17:27.188
She's got her reference call already in the bag.

491
00:17:27.328 --> 00:17:29.344
And then we get everybody together.

492
00:17:29.672 --> 00:17:29.844
Like,

493
00:17:29.860 --> 00:17:29.985
see,

494
00:17:30.016 --> 00:17:30.797
this is the thing.

495
00:17:31.125 --> 00:17:33.281
Like the reality is.

496
00:17:33.764 --> 00:17:34.685
Maybe I'm wrong.

497
00:17:36.265 --> 00:17:38.347
Maybe I'm wrong and I just don't see it.

498
00:17:38.964 --> 00:17:43.905
And so if I can't convince sales and product that there's a positioning problem,

499
00:17:43.929 --> 00:17:46.851
then maybe I'm the problem because I don't understand it.

500
00:17:47.968 --> 00:17:48.866
And so that's what I do.

501
00:17:49.007 --> 00:17:54.327
I don't go to the CEO and try to convince them just because I got some idea that maybe the positioning is bad.

502
00:17:54.671 --> 00:17:54.874
First,

503
00:17:54.890 --> 00:17:55.624
I got to validate,

504
00:17:55.687 --> 00:17:56.702
is it actually bad?

505
00:17:56.749 --> 00:17:56.905
Like,

506
00:17:57.202 --> 00:17:58.812
is it causing us pain in sales?

507
00:17:59.265 --> 00:18:00.343
And if the head of sales says,

508
00:18:00.437 --> 00:18:00.546
no,

509
00:18:00.655 --> 00:18:01.405
that's not the problem,

510
00:18:01.452 --> 00:18:02.968
and I'm probably the problem.

511
00:18:03.456 --> 00:18:04.237
So that's how I do it.

512
00:18:04.377 --> 00:18:05.238
Like I don't get to be.

513
00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:06.719
And again,

514
00:18:06.818 --> 00:18:07.340
even now,

515
00:18:07.420 --> 00:18:09.342
like even in the work I do right now,

516
00:18:10.264 --> 00:18:16.471
working with clients like if the CEO doesn't believe we have a problem,

517
00:18:16.869 --> 00:18:18.072
I cannot fix that.

518
00:18:19.557 --> 00:18:27.244
What I'm hearing here is it's kind of having a secret go to market alignment team to try to understand first,

519
00:18:27.353 --> 00:18:32.291
is there really a problem or is my assumption of us having not a good positioning true?

520
00:18:33.092 --> 00:18:35.155
And then by kind of doing that,

521
00:18:35.194 --> 00:18:36.556
by getting those insights,

522
00:18:37.136 --> 00:18:41.843
you're able to really remove the influence or the hierarchy out of the play.

523
00:18:42.022 --> 00:18:42.202
Yes,

524
00:18:42.241 --> 00:18:43.725
you still have to come back to the CEO,

525
00:18:43.843 --> 00:18:46.249
but you're coming in with an approach where it's more like,

526
00:18:46.686 --> 00:18:46.843
okay,

527
00:18:46.929 --> 00:18:48.085
so we have the data.

528
00:18:48.288 --> 00:18:49.546
We understand that it's problematic.

529
00:18:49.905 --> 00:18:51.811
We got the buy-in of product and sales.

530
00:18:51.812 --> 00:18:53.171
And then we can really come up with,

531
00:18:53.249 --> 00:18:53.718
as you said,

532
00:18:54.093 --> 00:18:54.546
I'm dumb,

533
00:18:54.547 --> 00:18:54.874
I'm new.

534
00:18:54.999 --> 00:18:57.218
Really the approach of an innocence approach of

535
00:18:58.061 --> 00:18:59.702
I'm trying to understand if this is problematic.

536
00:18:59.780 --> 00:19:00.311
And if it is,

537
00:19:00.499 --> 00:19:02.327
this is kind of how we can get out of it.

538
00:19:02.748 --> 00:19:03.108
That's it.

539
00:19:03.168 --> 00:19:06.968
And you don't come in even thinking you got the answer because the reality is you don't,

540
00:19:07.289 --> 00:19:07.488
right?

541
00:19:07.489 --> 00:19:08.531
You don't have the answer yet.

542
00:19:08.828 --> 00:19:12.546
We can't get to the answer until we get a group of people together and we work through it.

543
00:19:13.070 --> 00:19:13.187
So

544
00:19:13.929 --> 00:19:14.273
I, you know,

545
00:19:14.351 --> 00:19:15.390
I'm coming in with this thing,

546
00:19:15.453 --> 00:19:15.648
like,

547
00:19:15.773 --> 00:19:16.054
you know,

548
00:19:16.671 --> 00:19:16.789
I,

549
00:19:16.790 --> 00:19:17.007
you know,

550
00:19:17.109 --> 00:19:20.539
I got a suspicion that the positioning might be bad,

551
00:19:20.835 --> 00:19:21.414
but I don't know.

552
00:19:21.898 --> 00:19:22.273
And if I,

553
00:19:22.710 --> 00:19:24.179
if sales doesn't think it's a problem,

554
00:19:24.195 --> 00:19:24.726
then it isn't,

555
00:19:25.648 --> 00:19:26.195
unfortunately,

556
00:19:26.398 --> 00:19:26.585
right?

557
00:19:26.617 --> 00:19:26.976
It isn't,

558
00:19:27.273 --> 00:19:27.632
it isn't,

559
00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:29.351
or they just not feeling it yet.

560
00:19:29.648 --> 00:19:30.992
Maybe they're going to feel it next quarter,

561
00:19:31.476 --> 00:19:32.195
but it isn't.

562
00:19:32.556 --> 00:19:49.882
and then same thing with product if i can't convince sales and product then maybe i'm wrong and then if i if i do convince sales and product well now i got you know now i got some leverage to go in and talk to the ceo because it's not just my opinion it's half the company sees the problem so

563
00:19:49.960 --> 00:20:00.695
maybe we should try and fix it so i'm i'm i'm gonna follow up real quick because i'm hearing two things here so april by the way i know like you said before this call you're gonna be out of Palm Springs at this talk.

564
00:20:01.148 --> 00:20:03.810
If you ever need replacements to serve in your place,

565
00:20:03.831 --> 00:20:07.853
like I think hear this response and you'd be the judge as to what.

566
00:20:09.258 --> 00:20:11.438
I've done for at this upcoming conference in Palm Springs,

567
00:20:11.758 --> 00:20:13.297
because we might need a vacation too as well.

568
00:20:14.020 --> 00:20:14.918
But two things.

569
00:20:15.219 --> 00:20:17.281
The first one is like being an internal salesperson.

570
00:20:18.477 --> 00:20:19.578
We flashed a book earlier,

571
00:20:20.281 --> 00:20:20.781
sales pitch,

572
00:20:21.578 --> 00:20:24.641
is that you are going to different audiences within your teams here.

573
00:20:24.664 --> 00:20:25.180
And you're like,

574
00:20:25.539 --> 00:20:28.883
I need to understand your point of view and validate if we have a problem.

575
00:20:29.477 --> 00:20:32.742
And the second thing here is that it sounds like this,

576
00:20:33.071 --> 00:20:36.383
a framework just popped into my head when I heard what you were explaining.

577
00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:37.680
And it sounds like VIP,

578
00:20:38.102 --> 00:20:38.289
like,

579
00:20:38.321 --> 00:20:38.508
hey.

580
00:20:39.458 --> 00:20:40.639
Is this a positioning problem?

581
00:20:40.760 --> 00:20:44.443
Is our buyer or internal teams know the value?

582
00:20:45.404 --> 00:20:46.967
Do they know our identity?

583
00:20:47.885 --> 00:20:50.408
Are they willing to pay the price we're stating at?

584
00:20:50.768 --> 00:20:52.213
Because if the price,

585
00:20:52.690 --> 00:20:53.229
if they're like,

586
00:20:53.330 --> 00:20:54.893
I don't know what you do,

587
00:20:55.096 --> 00:20:57.010
I don't know who you are,

588
00:20:57.494 --> 00:20:58.760
how can I justify that price?

589
00:20:59.244 --> 00:21:03.244
So it sounds like that's in a summary what you're highlighting here.

590
00:21:03.635 --> 00:21:04.400
Are we on the right track?

591
00:21:05.666 --> 00:21:06.244
A little bit,

592
00:21:06.322 --> 00:21:06.479
Yeah.

593
00:21:07.114 --> 00:21:07.374
you know,

594
00:21:07.375 --> 00:21:15.640
the pricing one's an interesting one because what you see with weak positioning is not so much that they're like,

595
00:21:16.101 --> 00:21:16.226
well,

596
00:21:16.265 --> 00:21:16.984
I pay a hundred,

597
00:21:17.007 --> 00:21:19.023
but I wouldn't pay 200 for that.

598
00:21:19.327 --> 00:21:20.070
It's more like

599
00:21:20.445 --> 00:21:21.710
I wouldn't pay anything.

600
00:21:23.257 --> 00:21:25.085
Like I don't get the value at all,

601
00:21:25.429 --> 00:21:25.757
man.

602
00:21:25.851 --> 00:21:26.070
Like,

603
00:21:26.570 --> 00:21:26.710
and,

604
00:21:26.835 --> 00:21:26.992
and,

605
00:21:27.398 --> 00:21:32.038
and often it sounds like an objection to pricing.

606
00:21:32.518 --> 00:21:52.911
but what it actually is is an objection to doing anything it's like well why would we stop doing the thing we're doing now and do that thing like i like usually that objection is around value it's like i get that you do this thing i just don't get that it's all that much better than me doing it on a spreadsheet or me doing it with a couple of interns it's that thing so you

607
00:21:52.912 --> 00:22:02.146
know it's not so much a because they're not you know this is like a first call they're not even really thinking about pricing yet if we're talking about enterprise software but they're a They're a bit like...

608
00:22:02.746 --> 00:22:03.307
I don't get it,

609
00:22:03.327 --> 00:22:03.547
man.

610
00:22:03.827 --> 00:22:06.350
That doesn't seem like something anybody would buy.

611
00:22:08.693 --> 00:22:09.471
It's that,

612
00:22:10.475 --> 00:22:13.338
which is truly terrifying when you hear it on a sales call.

613
00:22:13.635 --> 00:22:17.939
But you'd be amazed at how much you hear it when the positioning is mushy.

614
00:22:20.010 --> 00:22:20.947
I love that word,

615
00:22:21.291 --> 00:22:21.588
mushy.

616
00:22:22.760 --> 00:22:23.791
Mushy positioning.

617
00:22:24.900 --> 00:22:25.932
I don't like the look of it,

618
00:22:26.182 --> 00:22:27.197
but I like the sound of it.

619
00:22:29.026 --> 00:22:29.206
Yeah,

620
00:22:29.346 --> 00:22:30.646
like a lot of it is just like,

621
00:22:30.667 --> 00:22:30.886
you know,

622
00:22:30.906 --> 00:22:32.668
it's not like the positioning is not there.

623
00:22:32.806 --> 00:22:33.445
It's there.

624
00:22:34.289 --> 00:22:35.347
It's just not good.

625
00:22:35.789 --> 00:22:36.789
And the not good,

626
00:22:36.867 --> 00:22:41.547
the nature of it's not goodness is usually that it's just kind of sloppy.

627
00:22:41.711 --> 00:22:42.648
It's kind of vague.

628
00:22:42.649 --> 00:22:44.672
It's kind of like I can't,

629
00:22:44.890 --> 00:22:45.187
you know.

630
00:22:45.953 --> 00:22:46.968
It's like a college campus.

631
00:22:46.969 --> 00:22:47.765
What we want is nice,

632
00:22:47.906 --> 00:22:48.406
crisp,

633
00:22:48.656 --> 00:22:49.672
tight positioning,

634
00:22:49.734 --> 00:22:50.703
not too mushy mushy.

635
00:22:51.547 --> 00:22:52.937
Sounds like a college campus at

636
00:22:53.328 --> 00:22:53.797
2 a.m.

637
00:22:53.812 --> 00:22:54.765
on a Saturday night.

638
00:22:59.243 --> 00:22:59.544
Oh,

639
00:23:02.204 --> 00:23:05.431
you guys do that sometimes.

640
00:23:06.048 --> 00:23:06.173
Yeah,

641
00:23:06.189 --> 00:23:08.915
we do.

642
00:23:08.916 --> 00:23:10.493
So question for the group.

643
00:23:11.095 --> 00:23:15.274
I wrote some questions out for April since I heard she has,

644
00:23:15.821 --> 00:23:16.446
you know,

645
00:23:16.447 --> 00:23:18.243
she likes to get out to the college from time to time.

646
00:23:18.743 --> 00:23:23.634
You guys want to split off and have a little fun before we dip back in the serious conversation?

647
00:23:25.009 --> 00:23:25.415
All right.

648
00:23:26.246 --> 00:23:26.466
I'm down.

649
00:23:26.467 --> 00:23:26.987
All right.

650
00:23:26.988 --> 00:23:27.547
So April,

651
00:23:27.788 --> 00:23:28.088
um,

652
00:23:28.768 --> 00:23:31.112
don't expect you to know this from a previous episode,

653
00:23:31.131 --> 00:23:31.389
but we,

654
00:23:31.631 --> 00:23:33.612
we've created a torture chamber for people,

655
00:23:34.616 --> 00:23:34.733
uh,

656
00:23:34.734 --> 00:23:40.139
started with Anthony Pieri and we made him basically pick the most awful buzzwords that you see in,

657
00:23:40.764 --> 00:23:41.702
in B2B sass.

658
00:23:42.467 --> 00:23:45.389
We've modified the torture chamber for you to be a lot less,

659
00:23:45.748 --> 00:23:46.498
uh,

660
00:23:46.530 --> 00:23:47.045
torturous.

661
00:23:47.983 --> 00:23:51.311
And we want to ask you a little bit more about you getting out and

662
00:23:52.078 --> 00:24:14.900
getting your mind off of work and getting creative so we heard that you like to go to the cabin we wanted to ask you some either or questions how does that sound for you really oh okay great we're going to talk about the cat right all right so um you know what i'll i'll tell you this is a good topic because i'm actually building a new one oh really it's my little side project right now but

663
00:24:14.901 --> 00:24:19.744
it's one of these things it's really hard to build something on the water because there's like

664
00:24:20.250 --> 00:24:40.936
conservation authorities and you don't go well and a septic and all this stuff it's like you're out in the wilderness so yeah i'm getting education on like freaking septic systems and stuff that i wish i didn't know about but i'm now becoming an expert in so yeah ask me some great cabin questions i'm

665
00:24:40.951 --> 00:24:48.764
prepared wait is that the behind the scenes is that the behind the scenes reason why you spoke about toilets at your last pma talk is that the context of it no actually

666
00:24:49.358 --> 00:24:49.592
Oh, okay.

667
00:24:50.266 --> 00:24:50.386
But,

668
00:24:50.387 --> 00:24:50.727
you know,

669
00:24:50.847 --> 00:24:50.987
well,

670
00:24:51.047 --> 00:24:51.167
no,

671
00:24:51.587 --> 00:24:51.707
no.

672
00:24:52.268 --> 00:24:53.510
The behind the scenes reasons is,

673
00:24:54.549 --> 00:24:55.112
here's the thing.

674
00:24:56.393 --> 00:24:58.295
I'm trying to teach people a concept,

675
00:24:58.413 --> 00:24:58.631
right?

676
00:24:58.670 --> 00:25:01.616
And the concept is buying is hard.

677
00:25:01.678 --> 00:25:02.975
Making a purchase is hard.

678
00:25:04.022 --> 00:25:08.577
So what I've found with tech people is if you're trying to teach a concept,

679
00:25:09.110 --> 00:25:35.914
it's it doesn't work very well if i immediately give a technical example because technical people will get all hung up on the tech on the technical aspects of it like if i'm talking about positioning and i immediately jump into a database example people say well that's databases and that's because of database databases and so that wouldn't apply to us because we're a data warehouse and that's different than databases and you're like dude it's the same so instead i had to give them an example that's not technical at all.

680
00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:37.070
And that works pretty well.

681
00:25:37.117 --> 00:25:37.945
So I'm talking about

682
00:25:38.394 --> 00:25:41.677
cake versus muffins or cake versus cake pops or whatever.

683
00:25:42.158 --> 00:25:43.919
So the same thing on the sales side,

684
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:46.939
I'm trying to drive home this idea that buying is hard.

685
00:25:47.486 --> 00:25:48.103
And so I'm like,

686
00:25:48.142 --> 00:25:48.267
well,

687
00:25:48.268 --> 00:25:51.791
what's an example of something that I bought that I thought was going to be really easy.

688
00:25:51.830 --> 00:25:53.330
And then it turned out it was really hard.

689
00:25:53.331 --> 00:25:58.080
And the first thing that popped into my mind was when I was renovating a bathroom and I had to buy a toilet.

690
00:25:58.392 --> 00:25:59.267
Then it turned into like,

691
00:25:59.298 --> 00:26:02.595
it took me a month to buy a fricking toilet.

692
00:26:02.923 --> 00:26:04.814
And I thought I was just going to walk in there and go.

693
00:26:05.254 --> 00:26:11.040
that one.

694
00:26:11.041 --> 00:26:11.322
Anyway,

695
00:26:11.501 --> 00:26:13.021
that's why I use that example.

696
00:26:13.099 --> 00:26:15.505
Because people think the same thing about software,

697
00:26:15.583 --> 00:26:15.826
right?

698
00:26:15.841 --> 00:26:16.224
They think,

699
00:26:16.505 --> 00:26:16.622
well,

700
00:26:16.646 --> 00:26:17.763
how hard is it to buy?

701
00:26:17.927 --> 00:26:19.271
Like we as vendors,

702
00:26:19.865 --> 00:26:21.333
we think people just walk up and go,

703
00:26:21.490 --> 00:26:21.615
oh,

704
00:26:21.630 --> 00:26:22.396
that sounds good.

705
00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:23.286
Give me that one.

706
00:26:23.615 --> 00:26:24.896
But that's not how it works at all.

707
00:26:24.958 --> 00:26:27.333
They're comparing you to like three or four other options.

708
00:26:27.411 --> 00:26:28.552
You all look the same.

709
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:30.599
And everybody's saying the same stuff.

710
00:26:30.943 --> 00:26:32.396
And so they're trying to make this decision.

711
00:26:32.397 --> 00:26:33.255
It's actually really hard.

712
00:26:34.070 --> 00:26:34.651
And it's not a

713
00:26:36.032 --> 00:26:38.934
$12 price tag or $150 toilet either.

714
00:26:40.278 --> 00:26:40.797
Exactly.

715
00:26:40.918 --> 00:26:43.797
Like these things are expensive and you don't want to buy a bad one,

716
00:26:43.860 --> 00:26:44.063
right?

717
00:26:44.078 --> 00:26:47.141
Because then I got the bloody plumber in every week.

718
00:26:47.180 --> 00:26:50.305
And when it's the last thing I want is toilet problems.

719
00:26:50.946 --> 00:26:52.164
Nobody wants that problem.

720
00:26:52.742 --> 00:26:54.149
I need the thing to work.

721
00:26:58.039 --> 00:26:58.633
It's important.

722
00:26:58.649 --> 00:26:59.789
Talking about mushy positioning.

723
00:26:59.790 --> 00:27:00.821
Software is the same though,

724
00:27:00.899 --> 00:27:01.102
right?

725
00:27:01.133 --> 00:27:01.258
Yep.

726
00:27:01.490 --> 00:27:20.624
software is the same nobody wants to buy the bad thing and then implement it and then go whoopsie that sucks no that doesn't do what we wanted it to do like and you know and unlike buying a toilet like you make a mistake buying b2b software you get fired yep exactly right you're not just sleeping on the couch for a night or two you're

727
00:27:20.625 --> 00:27:29.062
not just or whatever dealing with the smell of whatever i'm unemployed and my toilet smells like shit

728
00:27:33.278 --> 00:27:33.397
Yeah,

729
00:27:33.398 --> 00:27:33.637
that's right.

730
00:27:33.638 --> 00:27:34.778
Your state decision has implications.

731
00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:36.860
Well,

732
00:27:36.961 --> 00:27:38.360
I love that background.

733
00:27:38.883 --> 00:27:39.125
And

734
00:27:40.227 --> 00:27:43.024
I think it's the perfect jump.

735
00:27:43.586 --> 00:27:45.328
It's the cabin part of the program.

736
00:27:45.492 --> 00:27:45.789
All right,

737
00:27:45.852 --> 00:27:46.172
April.

738
00:27:46.266 --> 00:27:48.407
You've got an A or B answer on either of those.

739
00:27:48.408 --> 00:27:49.688
So you've got to pick one or the other.

740
00:27:49.828 --> 00:27:50.157
All right?

741
00:27:50.297 --> 00:27:51.610
It's an either or situation.

742
00:27:51.735 --> 00:27:52.563
So the first one,

743
00:27:53.532 --> 00:27:56.313
camping in a tent or glamping in an Airbnb.

744
00:28:04.872 --> 00:28:05.090
Hmm.

745
00:28:05.852 --> 00:28:07.895
That's an it depends kind of answer.

746
00:28:08.676 --> 00:28:08.872
Well.

747
00:28:09.536 --> 00:28:11.879
Because I don't think glamping is camping.

748
00:28:12.278 --> 00:28:13.856
So if we're actually camping,

749
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:15.340
then you're in a tent.

750
00:28:15.403 --> 00:28:15.762
All right.

751
00:28:16.903 --> 00:28:19.809
So you like the nature feel.

752
00:28:19.903 --> 00:28:20.918
But I got a cabin,

753
00:28:21.090 --> 00:28:22.372
so I wouldn't call that camping.

754
00:28:22.373 --> 00:28:22.403
Oh,

755
00:28:22.404 --> 00:28:22.747
don't worry.

756
00:28:22.825 --> 00:28:24.168
We'll get- We call that glamping,

757
00:28:24.325 --> 00:28:24.965
and that's what I do.

758
00:28:24.966 --> 00:28:25.387
So you're like,

759
00:28:25.450 --> 00:28:25.668
okay,

760
00:28:25.856 --> 00:28:26.278
I gotcha.

761
00:28:28.523 --> 00:28:32.867
Kayaking down the creek or taking a paddleboard out on the lake?

762
00:28:35.308 --> 00:28:36.812
I do both at my cottage.

763
00:28:36.813 --> 00:28:37.273
I have both.

764
00:28:38.656 --> 00:28:39.312
At the same time?

765
00:28:39.313 --> 00:28:41.914
But the problem with the paddleboard,

766
00:28:41.937 --> 00:28:43.039
like stand-up paddleboard,

767
00:28:43.195 --> 00:28:45.312
is you can only go so far,

768
00:28:46.328 --> 00:28:46.562
you know,

769
00:28:46.563 --> 00:28:47.578
and you're really slow.

770
00:28:49.249 --> 00:28:52.359
And it doesn't go very good if it's really wavy out,

771
00:28:52.406 --> 00:28:52.609
right?

772
00:28:52.610 --> 00:28:53.671
So it has to be nice.

773
00:28:54.074 --> 00:29:10.447
like it's something you do first thing in the morning or in the evening when it's nice and quiet there's not like a thousand boats out whereas kayak can handle all that stuff unless it's like super windy and then it's and then it's hard to kayak but but i would choose kayak it's more practical i i

774
00:29:10.494 --> 00:29:21.635
ride with you to kayak any day april um third question sitting by the campfire and roasting some marshmallows or heading back and grilling up some hot dogs at the barbecue

775
00:29:23.586 --> 00:29:23.706
Oh,

776
00:29:23.746 --> 00:29:24.767
definitely marshmallows.

777
00:29:27.509 --> 00:29:28.872
I thought you were going to say hot dogs.

778
00:29:28.873 --> 00:29:31.095
He doesn't eat hot dogs?

779
00:29:31.173 --> 00:29:31.677
What the hell?

780
00:29:31.755 --> 00:29:32.794
What's wrong with hot dogs,

781
00:29:32.818 --> 00:29:33.138
April?

782
00:29:34.677 --> 00:29:35.521
Little kids eat them.

783
00:29:35.661 --> 00:29:37.239
I'll tell you what's wrong with them.

784
00:29:37.458 --> 00:29:38.583
They're very bad for you.

785
00:29:39.380 --> 00:29:41.169
You don't care about this when you're a little kid.

786
00:29:41.357 --> 00:29:42.138
But when you're older,

787
00:29:42.247 --> 00:29:42.622
you're like,

788
00:29:42.700 --> 00:29:44.310
hot dogs are actually not good.

789
00:29:44.544 --> 00:29:46.372
You should limit your hot dog intake.

790
00:29:46.373 --> 00:29:49.278
They don't put great things in those,

791
00:29:49.294 --> 00:29:49.638
do they?

792
00:29:50.894 --> 00:29:51.034
Yeah.

793
00:29:51.234 --> 00:29:53.195
You know what's crazy about marshmallows?

794
00:29:53.196 --> 00:29:54.637
They're actually not all that bad for you.

795
00:29:54.738 --> 00:29:55.020
Really?

796
00:29:55.117 --> 00:29:55.238
Oh,

797
00:29:55.239 --> 00:29:55.340
yeah,

798
00:29:55.341 --> 00:29:56.680
because there's a sugar in what?

799
00:29:57.180 --> 00:29:57.559
Water?

800
00:29:57.981 --> 00:29:58.543
It's sugar,

801
00:29:58.582 --> 00:30:00.402
but it's actually not even that much sugar.

802
00:30:00.684 --> 00:30:01.582
It's actually mainly,

803
00:30:01.824 --> 00:30:02.184
but you know,

804
00:30:02.207 --> 00:30:03.285
whatever that shit is,

805
00:30:03.324 --> 00:30:04.363
they make marshmallows out of,

806
00:30:04.364 --> 00:30:05.551
but it's kind of like,

807
00:30:05.770 --> 00:30:06.473
it's like nothing.

808
00:30:06.566 --> 00:30:08.566
So eating marshmallows is healthier.

809
00:30:08.567 --> 00:30:11.191
Then you get cookies and you make some more.

810
00:30:11.395 --> 00:30:13.770
Eating marshmallows is way healthier than eating a hot dog.

811
00:30:13.816 --> 00:30:14.691
What do you say?

812
00:30:15.254 --> 00:30:19.379
What do you say eating a marshmallow is healthier than sitting in a desk chair for eight hours.

813
00:30:19.730 --> 00:30:22.133
Or eating a marshmallow is healthier than eating a hot dog.

814
00:30:22.412 --> 00:30:25.434
I think sitting in a desk chair for eight hours is really bad.

815
00:30:25.496 --> 00:30:26.559
Yeah.

816
00:30:26.656 --> 00:30:27.942
So we would eat hot dogs.

817
00:30:27.981 --> 00:30:28.457
Unfortunately,

818
00:30:28.481 --> 00:30:30.660
we're all doing that right now.

819
00:30:30.684 --> 00:30:30.840
Well,

820
00:30:30.841 --> 00:30:31.902
as soon as this call is over,

821
00:30:31.942 --> 00:30:32.426
we're getting up.

822
00:30:32.427 --> 00:30:33.785
We're going to go roast some marshmallows.

823
00:30:33.840 --> 00:30:34.504
Group roast.

824
00:30:35.223 --> 00:30:35.809
Remote roast.

825
00:30:36.340 --> 00:30:38.215
I went for run before this call.

826
00:30:38.512 --> 00:30:40.356
All right.

827
00:30:40.449 --> 00:30:40.637
Well,

828
00:30:41.434 --> 00:30:43.731
we'll move on to the next question.

829
00:30:43.793 --> 00:30:48.840
So would you rather go hiking on a nearby trail or relaxing with a book?

830
00:30:49.482 --> 00:31:08.595
by the lake oh wow uh oh wow both of those things like i'm a big hiker actually well i was telling you before this call that i'm going to palm springs and i was all excited about hiking until i found out it was 110 degrees and then i was like oh maybe not but um you

831
00:31:08.596 --> 00:31:18.470
know so i i'm a big hiker i like a good hike but i also like a good relax the deck chair by the lake reading a book that Like you pretty much just.

832
00:31:18.886 --> 00:31:22.329
My summer vacation is like all of those things.

833
00:31:22.771 --> 00:31:24.650
Depends on the day and time at least probably.

834
00:31:25.751 --> 00:31:25.954
Yeah,

835
00:31:26.314 --> 00:31:26.775
that's right.

836
00:31:26.853 --> 00:31:30.494
What's your book of choice at the cabin in front of the lake?

837
00:31:30.697 --> 00:31:30.876
Well,

838
00:31:30.915 --> 00:31:31.501
you know what?

839
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:33.798
So I read a lot of business books,

840
00:31:33.939 --> 00:31:37.400
but I don't find business books a very good thing to read when you're on vacation.

841
00:31:37.447 --> 00:31:37.603
Like,

842
00:31:37.604 --> 00:31:38.509
so I'm reading business,

843
00:31:38.525 --> 00:31:39.650
if I'm on the plane,

844
00:31:40.009 --> 00:31:41.306
I'm reading business books.

845
00:31:42.322 --> 00:31:43.275
But when I'm on vacation,

846
00:31:43.306 --> 00:31:46.681
I like to read something that has nothing to do with anything.

847
00:31:47.234 --> 00:31:47.574
And so,

848
00:31:49.537 --> 00:31:49.656
yeah,

849
00:31:49.777 --> 00:31:54.101
I'm going through a bit of a sci-fi phase at the moment.

850
00:31:54.262 --> 00:31:54.383
Oh,

851
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:54.781
really?

852
00:31:56.121 --> 00:31:56.324
Yeah.

853
00:31:56.785 --> 00:31:57.566
Octavia Butler,

854
00:31:57.605 --> 00:31:58.402
you ever read any of that?

855
00:31:58.403 --> 00:31:59.207
I have not,

856
00:31:59.308 --> 00:32:00.605
but I heard she's a really good author.

857
00:32:00.707 --> 00:32:01.465
So good,

858
00:32:01.668 --> 00:32:02.871
you don't know what you're missing.

859
00:32:02.972 --> 00:32:04.746
So actually somebody bought somebody,

860
00:32:04.871 --> 00:32:05.496
my child,

861
00:32:05.730 --> 00:32:06.387
my daughter,

862
00:32:06.808 --> 00:32:09.902
bought me an Octavia Butler book as a gift.

863
00:32:10.762 --> 00:32:11.871
And holy man,

864
00:32:11.918 --> 00:32:12.746
that was so good.

865
00:32:12.965 --> 00:32:16.043
I went right down the rat hole and I have now officially read

866
00:32:16.286 --> 00:32:31.650
all the octavia butler books how many are there out there right now she's got a few i don't know i think there's at least seven so yeah she died young though anyways but uh yeah octavia butler if you're looking for a good uh kind

867
00:32:31.651 --> 00:32:44.275
of sci-fi sit by the sit by the you know it's not exactly light some of this stuff is pretty dark but it's still good and it's not a business book which i think is a terrible way to spend a summer day

868
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:47.420
We agree.

869
00:32:47.620 --> 00:32:48.440
We definitely agree.

870
00:32:48.481 --> 00:32:49.343
We can't agree with it.

871
00:32:49.344 --> 00:32:49.522
I think,

872
00:32:49.741 --> 00:32:51.565
I think we can all align on that.

873
00:32:51.643 --> 00:32:55.929
And that will gloss over your previous response about whether product marketers are marketers.

874
00:32:55.944 --> 00:32:57.413
So we'll just focus on that.

875
00:32:57.414 --> 00:32:57.569
Yeah.

876
00:33:01.069 --> 00:33:01.413
April,

877
00:33:02.038 --> 00:33:02.288
you got,

878
00:33:02.335 --> 00:33:03.132
it's game time.

879
00:33:03.601 --> 00:33:05.944
You want to go outdoors and play something like cornhole,

880
00:33:05.976 --> 00:33:06.679
for example,

881
00:33:07.257 --> 00:33:09.569
or hang back inside and do a board game.

882
00:33:15.638 --> 00:33:33.333
we're board game folks at my cottage there's a lot of katan oh my gosh yes this is a very classic cottage afternoon if the weather's bad outside there's like serious katan happening at my college what's your go-to resource you

883
00:33:33.334 --> 00:33:44.927
know i don't know i don't have one like we've had this conversation like do people have like you know real strategies on that and we don't but i'll tell you my daughter is really boss level katan player and she's very competitive and so

884
00:33:45.702 --> 00:34:08.618
like we're gonna play katan we gotta be on it i don't think i'm a particularly good katan player like i'm i came late to katan but uh because my kids got into it and then i got roped into it but um but yeah i just i just try not to die embarrassingly fast it's all about it's all about the hang in there it's all about the brick try to hang in there

885
00:34:11.138 --> 00:34:11.559
Exactly.

886
00:34:11.939 --> 00:34:12.519
We brought it.

887
00:34:13.181 --> 00:34:17.083
We actually rented kind of like a cabin last week when we were the three of us together.

888
00:34:17.142 --> 00:34:18.744
And I brought the game,

889
00:34:18.767 --> 00:34:20.103
but we didn't have the time to play.

890
00:34:20.150 --> 00:34:21.572
And I'll forever,

891
00:34:22.572 --> 00:34:22.806
you know,

892
00:34:23.533 --> 00:34:26.290
judge myself of not having Push It enough for the guys.

893
00:34:26.291 --> 00:34:31.040
I regret it now because this is now the second time in a week that I've heard of this game that I've never heard of before.

894
00:34:31.072 --> 00:34:32.025
So I'm going to say it.

895
00:34:32.822 --> 00:34:32.947
Oh,

896
00:34:32.978 --> 00:34:34.165
you haven't heard of it,

897
00:34:34.228 --> 00:34:35.697
let alone played?

898
00:34:35.744 --> 00:34:36.384
I know.

899
00:34:38.009 --> 00:34:40.009
This ignorant American over here needs to...

900
00:34:40.482 --> 00:34:40.823
Oh no,

901
00:34:40.884 --> 00:34:41.525
speak for yourself.

902
00:34:41.605 --> 00:34:42.207
Speak for yourself.

903
00:34:42.508 --> 00:34:45.072
I played Catan through the pandemic.

904
00:34:45.213 --> 00:34:47.201
I had the video game on my phone.

905
00:34:47.478 --> 00:34:48.963
The hours I logged on it.

906
00:34:49.181 --> 00:34:49.564
I'm like,

907
00:34:49.627 --> 00:34:51.025
I can play that game in my sleep.

908
00:34:52.402 --> 00:34:54.324
This is a very entertaining board game.

909
00:34:54.325 --> 00:34:54.965
All right,

910
00:34:54.984 --> 00:34:57.508
I know what I'm doing this weekend.

911
00:34:57.509 --> 00:34:59.129
We have a master and a padawan.

912
00:35:01.070 --> 00:35:01.367
April,

913
00:35:01.492 --> 00:35:03.234
so you're building your place right now.

914
00:35:03.515 --> 00:35:05.031
You don't have to tell us where you're building it,

915
00:35:05.054 --> 00:35:06.117
but the next question is,

916
00:35:06.515 --> 00:35:11.062
would you build that deep in the woods or right up against the water?

917
00:35:14.406 --> 00:35:14.797
Well,

918
00:35:16.140 --> 00:35:20.797
the Conservation Authority will not let you put it right up against the water.

919
00:35:21.073 --> 00:35:23.736
So it turns out there's a lot of regulations on this,

920
00:35:23.756 --> 00:35:25.619
which I'm learning because I'm building this thing.

921
00:35:26.056 --> 00:35:26.400
But yeah,

922
00:35:26.537 --> 00:35:27.197
in the water,

923
00:35:27.260 --> 00:35:32.221
there needs to be water around because I want to be kayaking and paddle boarding and skiing and all this stuff.

924
00:35:32.322 --> 00:35:32.447
So,

925
00:35:33.103 --> 00:35:33.228
so,

926
00:35:33.322 --> 00:35:33.486
yeah,

927
00:35:33.728 --> 00:35:34.642
you need to be on the water.

928
00:35:34.783 --> 00:35:35.408
But,

929
00:35:35.424 --> 00:35:35.650
you know,

930
00:35:35.651 --> 00:35:38.627
I know a lot of people that have cabins and they're out in the woods and there's no water around.

931
00:35:38.658 --> 00:35:40.267
And then the whole deal is you're in the woods.

932
00:35:40.392 --> 00:35:47.361
But but I grew up around like I grew up on a river like it looks like a lake.

933
00:35:47.392 --> 00:35:48.236
It's a big river.

934
00:35:49.080 --> 00:35:49.627
But I grew up.

935
00:35:49.945 --> 00:35:50.386
on that.

936
00:35:50.486 --> 00:35:50.786
And so,

937
00:35:51.246 --> 00:35:51.487
you know,

938
00:35:51.527 --> 00:35:55.453
I think what you want in a cottage is what you knew,

939
00:35:56.011 --> 00:35:58.671
what your first cottage experiences looked like.

940
00:35:59.796 --> 00:36:00.117
And so

941
00:36:00.812 --> 00:36:01.499
I grew up on the river,

942
00:36:01.538 --> 00:36:03.859
so we're having cabinets going on the river.

943
00:36:03.898 --> 00:36:04.062
Yeah.

944
00:36:04.257 --> 00:36:04.898
I'm with you too.

945
00:36:05.296 --> 00:36:05.984
I need water.

946
00:36:06.374 --> 00:36:07.187
It's so soothing.

947
00:36:07.203 --> 00:36:07.937
It doesn't matter what,

948
00:36:08.437 --> 00:36:09.078
what the occasion.

949
00:36:09.109 --> 00:36:09.281
Yeah.

950
00:36:09.282 --> 00:36:09.531
Water.

951
00:36:09.890 --> 00:36:10.187
All right.

952
00:36:10.249 --> 00:36:13.374
And then last question to wrap up the,

953
00:36:13.687 --> 00:36:14.874
the torture chamber round.

954
00:36:16.078 --> 00:36:19.187
You like to just hang out and watch the birds or wait until nighttime?

955
00:36:19.397 --> 00:36:20.519
and gaze at the stars.

956
00:36:22.640 --> 00:36:23.081
Wow.

957
00:36:24.161 --> 00:36:24.923
Can we do both?

958
00:36:25.161 --> 00:36:26.005
Why don't we do both?

959
00:36:26.006 --> 00:36:26.122
Well,

960
00:36:26.123 --> 00:36:27.368
that's the torture chamber part.

961
00:36:27.407 --> 00:36:28.423
You're forced to pick one.

962
00:36:28.985 --> 00:36:30.228
That's the torture chamber part?

963
00:36:31.485 --> 00:36:34.110
And most people don't even want to pick one in the torture chamber.

964
00:36:34.173 --> 00:36:36.978
We gave you the option of things are so nice,

965
00:36:36.979 --> 00:36:37.868
you want to pick both.

966
00:36:37.915 --> 00:36:39.790
So,

967
00:36:40.759 --> 00:36:43.384
watch the stars or watch the birds.

968
00:36:45.181 --> 00:36:46.103
Maybe stars.

969
00:36:46.837 --> 00:36:48.681
Good star action where I'm at.

970
00:36:49.037 --> 00:37:03.309
because we're really far away from anything and so light pollution yeah no light pollution at all like i can run at night on a full moon and there's a shadow from the moon oh wow peter pan style

971
00:37:06.005 --> 00:37:25.597
people don't believe me when i say you can go for a run at a full moon and it's so bright you can see a shadow go for a run at a full moon and you'll hear that i think of my running light i'm like i have to have a run around so you can just and you'll it's so bright moon is not out it'll be like why are we talking about this cottage shit man like get back awesome

972
00:37:26.300 --> 00:37:33.112
well we will uh we'll let you know we love it we love it yeah they know they're not gonna get this on other podcasts.

973
00:37:33.128 --> 00:37:35.159
So we talked about it.

974
00:37:35.949 --> 00:37:41.615
Just be ready for some outbound emails when this episode hits of like,

975
00:37:41.634 --> 00:37:41.795
hey,

976
00:37:41.916 --> 00:37:42.154
April,

977
00:37:42.217 --> 00:37:42.896
how's your cottage?

978
00:37:43.115 --> 00:37:43.478
By the way,

979
00:37:43.479 --> 00:37:45.279
we have this new B2B software.

980
00:37:45.459 --> 00:37:45.576
Hey,

981
00:37:45.881 --> 00:37:47.357
can we help you with your septic tank?

982
00:37:47.358 --> 00:37:53.607
I don't know.

983
00:37:54.154 --> 00:37:58.951
We've got an AI platform that can get you past all those conservationist stuff.

984
00:38:01.638 --> 00:38:01.982
No,

985
00:38:02.138 --> 00:38:02.670
let me tell you,

986
00:38:02.732 --> 00:38:04.701
that is never going to happen.

987
00:38:05.910 --> 00:38:09.215
That's like saying the AI is going to get you out of jail.

988
00:38:09.613 --> 00:38:10.152
It's not.

989
00:38:11.535 --> 00:38:11.875
There's,

990
00:38:12.074 --> 00:38:12.234
yeah,

991
00:38:12.574 --> 00:38:13.840
the Conservation Authority,

992
00:38:13.895 --> 00:38:14.059
man,

993
00:38:14.137 --> 00:38:15.137
that is serious.

994
00:38:16.121 --> 00:38:16.762
They're serious.

995
00:38:16.763 --> 00:38:18.785
They're not fooling around those people.

996
00:38:19.379 --> 00:38:19.567
Well,

997
00:38:19.645 --> 00:38:22.848
we'll need to bring you back on once you're done and the place is built.

998
00:38:22.926 --> 00:38:29.254
But thanks for letting us and our audience get to know you a little bit better other than your professional life.

999
00:38:31.754 --> 00:38:32.223
Sure.

1000
00:38:34.665 --> 00:38:36.868
We spoke about mushy positioning earlier,

1001
00:38:37.108 --> 00:38:37.487
and

1002
00:38:38.069 --> 00:38:41.233
I have a question on the back of my mind since we started this interview.

1003
00:38:41.811 --> 00:38:46.518
What are cardinal sins related to product position that you saw?

1004
00:38:46.534 --> 00:38:50.401
And I know that you are very strict in terms of who you're working with.

1005
00:38:50.643 --> 00:38:51.956
If these don't have a problem,

1006
00:38:53.206 --> 00:38:53.737
let's skip it.

1007
00:38:54.206 --> 00:38:57.581
But in terms of elements that make you cringe,

1008
00:38:57.846 --> 00:39:01.393
very much in the cardinal sin way of that.

1009
00:39:01.837 --> 00:39:02.037
Well,

1010
00:39:02.178 --> 00:39:02.558
so there's,

1011
00:39:02.739 --> 00:39:06.840
there's a handful of things that'll just really destroy your positioning.

1012
00:39:06.903 --> 00:39:07.203
Like,

1013
00:39:08.625 --> 00:39:08.742
um,

1014
00:39:08.743 --> 00:39:11.309
like weak positioning is usually weak in a certain way.

1015
00:39:11.504 --> 00:39:11.965
Like there's,

1016
00:39:12.489 --> 00:39:14.731
there's two or three different ways where people get it wrong.

1017
00:39:14.832 --> 00:39:24.996
So the most common one is having an overly broad definition of who your ideal customer is.

1018
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:26.684
So,

1019
00:39:27.075 --> 00:39:29.309
and this happens really often where people say,

1020
00:39:29.903 --> 00:39:30.184
you know,

1021
00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:30.965
I'm,

1022
00:39:31.200 --> 00:39:31.325
I.

1023
00:39:31.902 --> 00:39:37.233
we're trying to tighten up our value proposition and we need the value proposition to work for our target customer.

1024
00:39:37.253 --> 00:39:37.612
And I'll say,

1025
00:39:37.631 --> 00:39:38.174
that's great.

1026
00:39:38.194 --> 00:39:39.096
Who's your target customer?

1027
00:39:39.097 --> 00:39:40.518
And they'll say SMBs.

1028
00:39:41.362 --> 00:39:41.862
And you're like,

1029
00:39:42.682 --> 00:39:42.901
oh,

1030
00:39:43.659 --> 00:39:44.542
like dry cleaners?

1031
00:39:44.628 --> 00:39:44.745
No,

1032
00:39:44.846 --> 00:39:44.963
no,

1033
00:39:45.104 --> 00:39:45.963
not dry cleaners.

1034
00:39:46.026 --> 00:39:46.768
I'm like.

1035
00:39:47.526 --> 00:39:47.846
okay,

1036
00:39:47.927 --> 00:39:48.808
like car dealerships.

1037
00:39:48.827 --> 00:39:48.948
No,

1038
00:39:49.148 --> 00:39:50.390
not car dealerships.

1039
00:39:50.409 --> 00:39:51.031
And I'll be like,

1040
00:39:51.870 --> 00:39:52.292
okay,

1041
00:39:52.570 --> 00:39:52.972
like,

1042
00:39:53.074 --> 00:39:53.331
you know,

1043
00:39:53.491 --> 00:39:54.574
quick serve restaurants.

1044
00:39:54.632 --> 00:39:54.753
No.

1045
00:39:56.058 --> 00:39:56.613
And you'll be like,

1046
00:39:56.636 --> 00:39:56.839
okay,

1047
00:39:56.878 --> 00:39:58.659
you're not selling all SMBs.

1048
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:00.519
And so when they,

1049
00:40:01.019 --> 00:40:02.964
and often when you scratch at it,

1050
00:40:02.980 --> 00:40:06.308
what they mean by SMBs is like small tech companies.

1051
00:40:06.511 --> 00:40:09.261
And that is a tiny slice of the universe of SMBs.

1052
00:40:10.089 --> 00:40:15.230
And so it makes it impossible to have really good solid value proposition.

1053
00:40:15.754 --> 00:40:20.760
when you're trying to be everything to everybody in this overly broad universe.

1054
00:40:20.838 --> 00:40:24.502
So I think that's one positioning thing that people get really bad.

1055
00:40:25.346 --> 00:40:34.580
The other one that I think is incredibly common is the company is trying to position against competitors,

1056
00:40:35.596 --> 00:40:39.393
but they've got a really broad set of competitors they're trying to position against.

1057
00:40:39.394 --> 00:40:39.924
So they'll say,

1058
00:40:40.112 --> 00:40:40.330
oh,

1059
00:40:40.393 --> 00:40:40.643
you know,

1060
00:40:40.644 --> 00:40:43.565
we Googled this and here's our list of competitors.

1061
00:40:43.596 --> 00:40:43.987
And there's,

1062
00:40:44.158 --> 00:40:44.377
you know.

1063
00:40:44.606 --> 00:40:46.067
30 companies on the list.

1064
00:40:46.108 --> 00:40:46.608
And you'll be like,

1065
00:40:47.008 --> 00:40:47.409
oh man,

1066
00:40:47.469 --> 00:40:48.249
like that's a lot.

1067
00:40:49.651 --> 00:40:51.514
But then when you talk to the sales teams,

1068
00:40:51.553 --> 00:40:53.737
I work mainly with B2B and people in the sales team,

1069
00:40:54.018 --> 00:40:55.096
talk to the sales team and you say,

1070
00:40:55.479 --> 00:40:56.120
who do you see?

1071
00:40:56.174 --> 00:40:56.659
And they'll say,

1072
00:40:57.198 --> 00:40:57.737
it's Oracle.

1073
00:40:58.737 --> 00:40:59.760
And there's one competitor,

1074
00:40:59.979 --> 00:41:00.760
not 59,

1075
00:41:00.885 --> 00:41:01.385
there's one.

1076
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:03.323
And the other ones,

1077
00:41:03.370 --> 00:41:04.651
we never see them in a deal.

1078
00:41:05.182 --> 00:41:06.354
So if we don't see them in a deal,

1079
00:41:06.355 --> 00:41:09.167
we don't have to position against them because the customer's not thinking about them.

1080
00:41:09.745 --> 00:41:13.557
So we only have to position against what a customer would consider to be.

1081
00:41:14.334 --> 00:41:15.934
an alternative approach to the problem,

1082
00:41:16.234 --> 00:41:18.496
which is usually whatever the status quo is,

1083
00:41:18.593 --> 00:41:18.836
you know,

1084
00:41:19.156 --> 00:41:19.754
spreadsheet,

1085
00:41:20.437 --> 00:41:21.175
manual labor,

1086
00:41:21.336 --> 00:41:21.714
whatever,

1087
00:41:21.816 --> 00:41:22.453
pen and paper,

1088
00:41:23.156 --> 00:41:23.500
or,

1089
00:41:24.937 --> 00:41:26.179
and I should say,

1090
00:41:26.757 --> 00:41:28.961
anything that lands on a short list against us.

1091
00:41:29.656 --> 00:41:34.015
Not anybody who could compete with us in our fantasy world of competition.

1092
00:41:35.531 --> 00:41:40.047
It's anyone who actually does compete with us because a customer considers them and puts them on a short list.

1093
00:41:40.750 --> 00:41:42.492
So that's the other thing that people get wrong.

1094
00:41:42.511 --> 00:41:43.033
And then again,

1095
00:41:43.273 --> 00:41:46.976
it affects your positioning because people will have this really mushy positioning and be like,

1096
00:41:47.316 --> 00:41:48.816
why can't you just say what you do?

1097
00:41:48.941 --> 00:41:49.121
Like,

1098
00:41:49.175 --> 00:41:50.238
why isn't this tighter?

1099
00:41:50.683 --> 00:41:54.183
And it'll be because they're trying to position against 59 competitors.

1100
00:41:54.184 --> 00:41:55.488
And of course it gets all mushy.

1101
00:41:56.707 --> 00:41:58.324
So those are the two things I see a lot.

1102
00:41:58.808 --> 00:42:08.730
The one that's really bad that I think is the hardest part of positioning to get right is people are not auctioning.

1103
00:42:08.854 --> 00:42:14.238
not actually focused on the value they can deliver for customers.

1104
00:42:14.742 --> 00:42:23.109
And instead what they're doing is listing a bunch of features with the assumption that the customer can do the translation between feature and value.

1105
00:42:23.672 --> 00:42:23.789
Now,

1106
00:42:23.929 --> 00:42:26.828
sometimes the customer can like,

1107
00:42:27.609 --> 00:42:27.750
and,

1108
00:42:28.031 --> 00:42:31.312
but usually it's when it's a feature that everybody has,

1109
00:42:31.375 --> 00:42:32.703
it's really well understood.

1110
00:42:33.953 --> 00:42:34.203
You know,

1111
00:42:34.204 --> 00:42:35.406
it's kind of table stakes.

1112
00:42:35.890 --> 00:42:36.751
And a customer will say,

1113
00:42:36.831 --> 00:42:37.051
well,

1114
00:42:37.112 --> 00:42:38.153
you got to have this feature.

1115
00:42:38.192 --> 00:42:39.114
Otherwise I can't buy you.

1116
00:42:39.133 --> 00:42:39.594
And you say,

1117
00:42:39.674 --> 00:42:39.833
yep,

1118
00:42:40.012 --> 00:42:40.856
I got that feature.

1119
00:42:40.973 --> 00:42:41.137
Yep.

1120
00:42:41.293 --> 00:42:42.598
We integrate with Oracle.

1121
00:42:43.157 --> 00:42:43.317
Yep.

1122
00:42:43.477 --> 00:42:44.801
We're SOC 2 compliant.

1123
00:42:44.918 --> 00:42:45.036
Yep.

1124
00:42:45.223 --> 00:42:45.637
We're whatever.

1125
00:42:46.223 --> 00:42:48.465
But this isn't generally differentiating.

1126
00:42:48.543 --> 00:42:56.254
So the stuff that you have that makes you really special is generally some capabilities that the other folks don't have.

1127
00:42:56.645 --> 00:42:59.333
And you can't assume that I can just say,

1128
00:42:59.958 --> 00:43:00.208
hey,

1129
00:43:00.473 --> 00:43:00.754
you know,

1130
00:43:01.208 --> 00:43:03.083
I have a disadvanced AI thing.

1131
00:43:03.176 --> 00:43:04.645
And you can't just assume.

1132
00:43:04.982 --> 00:43:08.961
that the customer can understand why that's important or why that matters for them.

1133
00:43:09.684 --> 00:43:16.625
And so in something that's really new and interesting or something that's really differentiated from your other competitors,

1134
00:43:16.922 --> 00:43:25.047
you're going to have to actually talk about why the feature matters because the customer may never have encountered that feature before.

1135
00:43:25.985 --> 00:43:29.625
And so this talking about features versus value thing is also a big mistake.

1136
00:43:29.641 --> 00:43:30.766
I think a lot of companies make.

1137
00:43:31.141 --> 00:43:32.406
With that point in mind,

1138
00:43:32.688 --> 00:43:34.469
is there a right way to

1139
00:43:34.846 --> 00:43:52.668
position a platform because the common especially in cyber security what i've seen is that they take all these different products they cobble them together and say we're selling a platform and the u.s the buyer has to buy the platform and yeah so i'm curious your point of view on that well

1140
00:43:52.824 --> 00:44:03.199
so it's really interesting because there's a lot of different ways to sell a platform so you can you can have a platform and not actually

1141
00:44:03.962 --> 00:44:08.144
try to sell the whole thing all at once because you can turn functionality on and off.

1142
00:44:08.828 --> 00:44:12.847
And so sometimes what you'll have is what we call a wedge product into the account.

1143
00:44:13.355 --> 00:44:13.472
So,

1144
00:44:13.473 --> 00:44:14.949
um,

1145
00:44:14.950 --> 00:44:15.175
I mean,

1146
00:44:15.293 --> 00:44:15.832
Salesforce,

1147
00:44:15.855 --> 00:44:17.238
a good example of this,

1148
00:44:18.175 --> 00:44:19.816
at least previous Salesforce,

1149
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:21.105
maybe not where they're at right now,

1150
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:23.074
but if you rolled back five years ago,

1151
00:44:23.636 --> 00:44:24.199
if sales,

1152
00:44:24.277 --> 00:44:26.621
if you didn't have any Salesforce stuff,

1153
00:44:27.371 --> 00:44:30.668
they would just try to sell you the CRM and that's it.

1154
00:44:30.824 --> 00:44:31.808
They wouldn't even talk about it.

1155
00:44:31.826 --> 00:44:34.650
to you about marketing cloud or service cloud or any of that stuff.

1156
00:44:34.669 --> 00:44:35.892
They just sell you sales cloud,

1157
00:44:35.911 --> 00:44:36.751
which is the CRM.

1158
00:44:37.290 --> 00:44:38.353
And then once they got you,

1159
00:44:38.853 --> 00:44:40.494
then they'll try to sell you on everything else.

1160
00:44:40.533 --> 00:44:42.736
Now they'll tell you all this stuff is a platform,

1161
00:44:43.181 --> 00:44:44.681
but you don't have to buy it all at once.

1162
00:44:45.001 --> 00:44:48.415
Now there's other situations where we're selling,

1163
00:44:48.540 --> 00:44:49.165
we really do,

1164
00:44:49.556 --> 00:44:52.150
we have this platform and we want you by all of it.

1165
00:44:52.584 --> 00:44:53.125
at once.

1166
00:44:54.425 --> 00:44:58.849
And typically what you're competing against is that,

1167
00:44:58.869 --> 00:44:59.091
you know,

1168
00:44:59.150 --> 00:45:01.236
we can sell you all of this together at once,

1169
00:45:01.470 --> 00:45:03.775
or you can buy from the other vendors,

1170
00:45:03.798 --> 00:45:04.697
but the other vendors will,

1171
00:45:04.712 --> 00:45:04.955
you know,

1172
00:45:04.994 --> 00:45:05.900
they'll do piece parts.

1173
00:45:05.916 --> 00:45:07.962
So you'll have this piece and that piece and this piece,

1174
00:45:07.963 --> 00:45:09.158
and you'll buy them all separately.

1175
00:45:09.595 --> 00:45:09.814
So the,

1176
00:45:10.595 --> 00:45:10.720
the,

1177
00:45:11.330 --> 00:45:11.439
the,

1178
00:45:11.923 --> 00:45:13.705
what you're going to have to sell me on,

1179
00:45:13.923 --> 00:45:17.908
if I'm a customer is the value of having all these things together.

1180
00:45:19.048 --> 00:45:20.017
So what's the value?

1181
00:45:20.018 --> 00:45:20.126
So,

1182
00:45:20.345 --> 00:45:21.126
so it's all together.

1183
00:45:21.236 --> 00:45:21.673
So what?

1184
00:45:23.116 --> 00:45:25.096
And often the so what on that is weak,

1185
00:45:26.076 --> 00:45:26.256
right?

1186
00:45:26.257 --> 00:45:27.277
So you're going to have to think about it.

1187
00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:28.437
The so what might be,

1188
00:45:28.598 --> 00:45:28.937
well,

1189
00:45:29.398 --> 00:45:29.656
you know,

1190
00:45:29.797 --> 00:45:33.394
you could just buy one and the things all play nice together.

1191
00:45:33.957 --> 00:45:35.121
And if there's a problem,

1192
00:45:35.402 --> 00:45:37.801
we won't point fingers at the other vendors.

1193
00:45:37.918 --> 00:45:39.652
We'll solve the problem no matter where it is,

1194
00:45:39.684 --> 00:45:40.980
because it's all our platform.

1195
00:45:41.434 --> 00:45:41.934
That's okay.

1196
00:45:42.340 --> 00:45:42.887
That's all right.

1197
00:45:42.980 --> 00:45:45.809
And that might be really valuable to customers because they don't want to,

1198
00:45:46.168 --> 00:45:47.887
they've already got a problem with piece parts.

1199
00:45:48.324 --> 00:45:50.449
Or you might say it's faster to deploy.

1200
00:45:50.684 --> 00:45:54.809
It's easier to deploy than 15 piece parts that you're going to have to manually integrate them,

1201
00:45:54.810 --> 00:45:58.273
or maybe you have to pay professional services to integrate them and they don't talk to each other and blah,

1202
00:45:58.274 --> 00:45:58.391
blah,

1203
00:45:58.392 --> 00:45:58.594
blah.

1204
00:45:58.969 --> 00:46:00.016
Don't have that problem with us.

1205
00:46:00.453 --> 00:46:01.414
We just get it deployed.

1206
00:46:01.437 --> 00:46:01.977
It's all nice.

1207
00:46:01.978 --> 00:46:02.477
It all works.

1208
00:46:02.478 --> 00:46:03.398
It all plays nice together.

1209
00:46:04.180 --> 00:46:09.336
You might actually stress the connective tissue between the things.

1210
00:46:09.898 --> 00:46:10.867
So for example,

1211
00:46:11.945 --> 00:46:16.930
I worked with a company that their main competitor said they had a platform.

1212
00:46:17.572 --> 00:46:20.715
but all they were were a bunch of piece parts stuck together in a box,

1213
00:46:21.115 --> 00:46:21.316
right?

1214
00:46:21.637 --> 00:46:24.238
And which they had bought through acquisitions.

1215
00:46:25.078 --> 00:46:26.203
And none of the things,

1216
00:46:26.204 --> 00:46:29.265
it was different sign-ins for each of the tools.

1217
00:46:29.664 --> 00:46:31.469
There was no actual connective tissue.

1218
00:46:31.470 --> 00:46:32.625
There was no nothing.

1219
00:46:33.109 --> 00:46:36.117
And so the folks I was working with actually had a platform,

1220
00:46:36.164 --> 00:46:39.726
meaning there's a shared metadata layer across the whole thing.

1221
00:46:40.508 --> 00:46:41.008
So you say,

1222
00:46:41.336 --> 00:46:42.930
now I can't just go to you and say,

1223
00:46:42.992 --> 00:46:43.164
hey,

1224
00:46:43.165 --> 00:46:45.320
you want to buy us because we have a a shared metadata layer,

1225
00:46:45.383 --> 00:46:45.773
you're going to go,

1226
00:46:46.508 --> 00:46:46.914
so what?

1227
00:46:47.184 --> 00:46:48.825
Why do I care about a shared metadata layer?

1228
00:46:49.106 --> 00:46:49.347
Well,

1229
00:46:49.386 --> 00:46:52.468
the reason you care about it is if something happens over here,

1230
00:46:52.851 --> 00:46:54.452
the people over here know about it.

1231
00:46:56.335 --> 00:47:01.702
And then we had specific examples of change happens over here and this department knows instantly and whatever.

1232
00:47:01.741 --> 00:47:02.983
Whereas in the other guys,

1233
00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:04.374
they call it a platform,

1234
00:47:04.405 --> 00:47:05.655
but that shit's not happening.

1235
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:07.405
So,

1236
00:47:08.124 --> 00:47:08.390
you know,

1237
00:47:08.468 --> 00:47:11.046
so it's not so much that you have a platform.

1238
00:47:11.187 --> 00:47:11.343
It's,

1239
00:47:11.546 --> 00:47:11.968
it's so,

1240
00:47:12.233 --> 00:47:13.655
it's the so what of the platform?

1241
00:47:13.718 --> 00:47:13.843
Like,

1242
00:47:13.890 --> 00:47:15.093
why does the platform matter?

1243
00:47:15.187 --> 00:47:15.327
Like,

1244
00:47:15.358 --> 00:47:16.718
how are you making my life better?

1245
00:47:17.981 --> 00:47:18.121
And,

1246
00:47:18.401 --> 00:47:18.642
you know,

1247
00:47:18.643 --> 00:47:21.444
and the solution to make my life better is having a platform.

1248
00:47:21.624 --> 00:47:23.944
But we need to lead with the value,

1249
00:47:23.987 --> 00:47:24.608
not the feature.

1250
00:47:24.609 --> 00:47:25.468
The feature is

1251
00:47:25.991 --> 00:47:28.194
I'm going to sell you these five things together in a package.

1252
00:47:28.351 --> 00:47:28.952
So what?

1253
00:47:30.093 --> 00:47:31.069
And the so what is,

1254
00:47:31.155 --> 00:47:31.413
you know,

1255
00:47:31.835 --> 00:47:34.554
all the great things that you get when those things are all together.

1256
00:47:35.132 --> 00:47:36.319
So we got to stay focused on that.

1257
00:47:36.397 --> 00:47:37.241
Value is important.

1258
00:47:39.335 --> 00:47:41.757
I'm not sure exactly how I want to phrase this question,

1259
00:47:41.804 --> 00:47:43.038
but I'm going to give it a stab.

1260
00:47:44.007 --> 00:47:44.132
So.

1261
00:47:47.660 --> 00:47:48.521
You've got like,

1262
00:47:49.182 --> 00:47:50.003
like kind of what you said,

1263
00:47:50.004 --> 00:47:52.165
you want to make it very tight around the positioning,

1264
00:47:54.306 --> 00:47:56.446
not talk necessarily about the whole platform.

1265
00:47:56.485 --> 00:47:57.790
If you can get away with that.

1266
00:48:00.009 --> 00:48:00.970
How do you like?

1267
00:48:00.971 --> 00:48:01.134
I mean,

1268
00:48:01.149 --> 00:48:01.610
you are,

1269
00:48:01.735 --> 00:48:02.118
you are,

1270
00:48:03.017 --> 00:48:05.118
but you're going to lead with the value of the platform.

1271
00:48:05.165 --> 00:48:05.681
Yeah,

1272
00:48:05.712 --> 00:48:05.853
yeah,

1273
00:48:05.884 --> 00:48:06.024
yeah.

1274
00:48:06.946 --> 00:48:07.056
So

1275
00:48:07.837 --> 00:48:08.134
I guess,

1276
00:48:08.196 --> 00:48:08.665
how do you,

1277
00:48:09.118 --> 00:48:15.665
do you have any suggestions or tips for people to like have those conversations constructively and really?

1278
00:48:17.168 --> 00:48:33.467
you know get people thinking that same train of thought as opposed to any number of people being like hey we should we need to lead with this feature we need to talk about this we need to you know use this jargon language that we only use internally um

1279
00:48:34.046 --> 00:48:44.171
yeah got any tips or tricks for for people out there who are dealing with that well again like if you if you look at my process for for doing positioning.

1280
00:48:45.733 --> 00:48:45.952
You know,

1281
00:48:46.014 --> 00:48:46.702
we start.

1282
00:48:46.856 --> 00:48:47.636
by saying,

1283
00:48:47.756 --> 00:48:48.016
okay,

1284
00:48:48.216 --> 00:48:49.157
if we didn't exist,

1285
00:48:49.536 --> 00:48:50.417
what would a customer do?

1286
00:48:50.815 --> 00:48:53.057
So let's get clear on who the competition is.

1287
00:48:53.139 --> 00:48:53.596
So we say,

1288
00:48:53.698 --> 00:48:53.936
okay,

1289
00:48:53.956 --> 00:48:56.815
the competition is spreadsheets or,

1290
00:48:57.299 --> 00:48:57.581
you know,

1291
00:48:58.042 --> 00:48:58.760
piece in a piece,

1292
00:48:59.018 --> 00:49:01.456
bunch of little piece part systems together.

1293
00:49:02.096 --> 00:49:03.401
And the piece parts look like this.

1294
00:49:03.463 --> 00:49:03.698
You know,

1295
00:49:03.699 --> 00:49:06.260
we have separate solutions for all these things and we can list that out.

1296
00:49:06.276 --> 00:49:06.854
And then we can say,

1297
00:49:07.604 --> 00:49:07.745
well,

1298
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:10.526
what have we got that the other guys don't have?

1299
00:49:10.745 --> 00:49:12.354
And we can list all the things like,

1300
00:49:12.355 --> 00:49:12.948
and you got your...

1301
00:49:13.284 --> 00:49:14.866
feature with your jargony thing.

1302
00:49:14.966 --> 00:49:15.085
Oh,

1303
00:49:15.086 --> 00:49:16.267
we got shared metadata.

1304
00:49:16.347 --> 00:49:16.587
Okay.

1305
00:49:16.648 --> 00:49:18.148
We're going to put that down on the list that,

1306
00:49:18.167 --> 00:49:18.429
you know,

1307
00:49:18.531 --> 00:49:18.710
Oh,

1308
00:49:18.730 --> 00:49:20.191
we got the AI thing.

1309
00:49:20.492 --> 00:49:20.730
Okay,

1310
00:49:20.832 --> 00:49:21.074
fine.

1311
00:49:21.093 --> 00:49:22.175
We'll put that down on the list,

1312
00:49:22.894 --> 00:49:24.496
but then we have to go the next step,

1313
00:49:24.792 --> 00:49:25.839
which is the value.

1314
00:49:27.097 --> 00:49:31.847
And so I find if you've got a group together and you're working through this process,

1315
00:49:32.628 --> 00:49:33.941
we're going to write the feature down.

1316
00:49:34.050 --> 00:49:34.191
Like,

1317
00:49:34.192 --> 00:49:35.472
it's not like we're ignoring it,

1318
00:49:36.300 --> 00:49:37.347
but we want to get to the,

1319
00:49:37.488 --> 00:49:39.050
so what of the feature.

1320
00:49:41.240 --> 00:49:43.123
And the so what of the feature is,

1321
00:49:43.423 --> 00:49:43.685
you know,

1322
00:49:43.745 --> 00:49:48.191
we're generally getting down to some simpler language there because we're not saying shared metadata,

1323
00:49:48.413 --> 00:49:49.195
shared metadata,

1324
00:49:49.554 --> 00:49:49.913
you know.

1325
00:49:52.703 --> 00:49:53.038
You know,

1326
00:49:53.242 --> 00:49:55.788
we're not even going to say the word metadata because no one cares.

1327
00:49:56.507 --> 00:49:58.968
All they care about is what is the shared metadata going to get us.

1328
00:49:59.630 --> 00:49:59.750
No,

1329
00:50:00.711 --> 00:50:01.812
what it's going to do is,

1330
00:50:01.872 --> 00:50:02.153
you know,

1331
00:50:02.753 --> 00:50:03.915
we're going to have this or that,

1332
00:50:03.954 --> 00:50:06.458
or this is what it enables.

1333
00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:12.700
And so usually when we're stuck in this thing where we're getting really into the technical jargon,

1334
00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:14.466
it's because we're talking about the feature.

1335
00:50:14.467 --> 00:50:15.607
We're not talking about the value.

1336
00:50:16.489 --> 00:50:17.864
And so in the work I do,

1337
00:50:17.974 --> 00:50:18.146
like,

1338
00:50:18.208 --> 00:50:19.083
let's write it down.

1339
00:50:19.146 --> 00:50:20.833
It's not like we're going to ignore that feature,

1340
00:50:20.849 --> 00:50:21.052
buddy.

1341
00:50:21.146 --> 00:50:21.646
It's there.

1342
00:50:21.849 --> 00:50:22.396
Here it is.

1343
00:50:23.114 --> 00:50:23.755
But I'm going to say,

1344
00:50:23.927 --> 00:50:24.239
okay,

1345
00:50:24.286 --> 00:50:24.896
we have that.

1346
00:50:25.411 --> 00:50:25.849
So what?

1347
00:50:26.177 --> 00:50:27.021
We got shared metadata.

1348
00:50:27.130 --> 00:50:27.552
So what?

1349
00:50:28.194 --> 00:50:28.314
Oh,

1350
00:50:28.315 --> 00:50:29.595
so all the things talk to each other.

1351
00:50:29.675 --> 00:50:29.875
Okay,

1352
00:50:29.934 --> 00:50:30.314
so what?

1353
00:50:31.195 --> 00:50:31.695
Why do I care,

1354
00:50:31.974 --> 00:50:32.156
right?

1355
00:50:32.176 --> 00:50:32.976
And I'm going to keep saying,

1356
00:50:33.015 --> 00:50:33.476
so what?

1357
00:50:33.554 --> 00:50:35.035
Until we get something where a customer would say,

1358
00:50:35.254 --> 00:50:35.617
ooh,

1359
00:50:35.656 --> 00:50:36.113
I want that.

1360
00:50:37.597 --> 00:50:38.238
Now we've got it.

1361
00:50:39.160 --> 00:50:39.316
Now,

1362
00:50:40.394 --> 00:50:41.433
if we're talking about jargon,

1363
00:50:43.558 --> 00:50:45.761
sometimes what we'll get is,

1364
00:50:48.371 --> 00:50:48.746
you know,

1365
00:50:51.996 --> 00:50:56.168
like people just get really attached to a jargony phrase.

1366
00:50:56.793 --> 00:50:57.058
Like,

1367
00:50:57.590 --> 00:50:58.711
Actionable insights.

1368
00:50:59.950 --> 00:51:01.970
We're going to deliver actionable insights.

1369
00:51:01.971 --> 00:51:02.173
You know,

1370
00:51:02.251 --> 00:51:02.790
pineapple.

1371
00:51:04.571 --> 00:51:04.950
Today.

1372
00:51:05.173 --> 00:51:06.075
Like today.

1373
00:51:06.411 --> 00:51:07.294
That same phrase.

1374
00:51:07.434 --> 00:51:09.333
You just hit home so hard.

1375
00:51:09.356 --> 00:51:10.489
Everybody loves that phrase.

1376
00:51:10.950 --> 00:51:13.270
I don't know why it became such a thing.

1377
00:51:14.356 --> 00:51:14.559
But,

1378
00:51:14.794 --> 00:51:15.059
you know,

1379
00:51:15.200 --> 00:51:16.153
actionable insights.

1380
00:51:16.809 --> 00:51:19.356
And so usually there's a better way to say that.

1381
00:51:20.059 --> 00:51:23.716
Like actionable insight is a pretty vague thing.

1382
00:51:24.903 --> 00:51:26.356
Like how do you find an insight?

1383
00:51:26.498 --> 00:51:27.679
What do you mean by actionable?

1384
00:51:27.879 --> 00:51:28.681
Right?

1385
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:31.083
So whenever it comes up in,

1386
00:51:31.443 --> 00:51:31.705
you know,

1387
00:51:31.884 --> 00:51:35.126
so let's say I'm doing one of these exercises where saying,

1388
00:51:35.626 --> 00:51:35.845
Oh,

1389
00:51:35.986 --> 00:51:36.290
you know,

1390
00:51:36.751 --> 00:51:38.267
you could do this analysis.

1391
00:51:38.408 --> 00:51:38.650
You know,

1392
00:51:38.673 --> 00:51:39.111
we've got this,

1393
00:51:39.369 --> 00:51:39.611
you know,

1394
00:51:39.634 --> 00:51:41.290
multimodal analysis or whatever,

1395
00:51:41.291 --> 00:51:44.572
and it'll tell you what's going on and deliver the actionable insight.

1396
00:51:45.009 --> 00:51:45.494
And I'll say,

1397
00:51:46.119 --> 00:51:47.290
what actionable insight?

1398
00:51:48.681 --> 00:51:49.634
Like what insight?

1399
00:51:50.337 --> 00:51:50.462
Oh,

1400
00:51:50.587 --> 00:51:55.369
it will tell you where this is broken or where this goes wrong or when this is happening.

1401
00:51:55.540 --> 00:51:55.712
Ah,

1402
00:51:56.182 --> 00:52:24.074
actionable out about it oh well once that you could do this other thing oh well why don't we just say that you know respond faster to incidents it's not actionable insight and it's actually not even the insight that's it's the action that happened after this fact sometimes the insight's important and then you're going to talk about the insight but people it's it's it's lazy right it's like i know what i mean but i can't get the words and so i'm going to just say actionable insight

1403
00:52:24.242 --> 00:52:25.743
And I'm going to hope everybody knows what I mean.

1404
00:52:26.365 --> 00:52:31.531
But usually you can get at some really plain language around that,

1405
00:52:32.210 --> 00:52:34.011
that if you just keep saying,

1406
00:52:34.535 --> 00:52:34.769
okay,

1407
00:52:35.191 --> 00:52:35.956
what action,

1408
00:52:36.253 --> 00:52:36.917
what insight?

1409
00:52:36.918 --> 00:52:40.097
Because they're placeholder words for other things.

1410
00:52:41.394 --> 00:52:42.503
And we just have to try harder.

1411
00:52:42.894 --> 00:52:43.144
You know,

1412
00:52:43.145 --> 00:52:44.269
I don't know if you guys have seen,

1413
00:52:44.410 --> 00:52:45.956
I don't know how you would have missed it because,

1414
00:52:45.957 --> 00:52:46.160
man,

1415
00:52:46.206 --> 00:52:46.988
what a book launch.

1416
00:52:47.050 --> 00:52:49.753
But you guys have had Emma Stratton on here?

1417
00:52:49.988 --> 00:52:50.113
Oh,

1418
00:52:50.144 --> 00:52:50.347
yeah.

1419
00:52:50.348 --> 00:52:50.472
Oh,

1420
00:52:50.988 --> 00:52:51.410
shit.

1421
00:52:52.347 --> 00:52:52.691
Man,

1422
00:52:52.769 --> 00:52:53.456
I loved it.

1423
00:52:54.379 --> 00:52:55.280
I love this book.

1424
00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:56.180
I honestly,

1425
00:52:56.221 --> 00:52:56.842
I'm so happy.

1426
00:52:56.901 --> 00:52:57.721
She wrote this book.

1427
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:00.444
She was telling me about thinking about write this book way back when.

1428
00:53:00.463 --> 00:53:00.944
And I was like,

1429
00:53:00.963 --> 00:53:01.846
you've got to write that book.

1430
00:53:01.987 --> 00:53:02.987
Everybody needs that book.

1431
00:53:03.627 --> 00:53:06.151
But she does a really good job on this at,

1432
00:53:06.409 --> 00:53:06.729
you know,

1433
00:53:07.612 --> 00:53:13.237
taking the jargony thing and having the plain language around it.

1434
00:53:13.299 --> 00:53:15.752
I would recommend folks that are fighting this fight.

1435
00:53:16.221 --> 00:53:17.096
Go have a look at that.

1436
00:53:17.674 --> 00:53:18.487
But in the,

1437
00:53:18.488 --> 00:53:18.690
you know,

1438
00:53:18.705 --> 00:53:20.487
in the exercises I'm doing,

1439
00:53:21.190 --> 00:53:21.424
you know,

1440
00:53:21.862 --> 00:53:22.752
on the one hand,

1441
00:53:23.439 --> 00:53:24.899
We're not trying to copyright.

1442
00:53:24.980 --> 00:53:28.323
And that's one of the rules we have when we're doing a positioning exercise is,

1443
00:53:28.401 --> 00:53:28.585
look,

1444
00:53:29.124 --> 00:53:31.050
if we all get stuck on the words,

1445
00:53:31.362 --> 00:53:33.308
then we're going to be here for months.

1446
00:53:33.831 --> 00:53:34.792
And so instead,

1447
00:53:34.808 --> 00:53:37.995
what we want to do is we want to get clear on the concept.

1448
00:53:39.081 --> 00:53:41.034
And then once we're clear on the concept,

1449
00:53:41.269 --> 00:53:47.675
we will allow the copywriters to do their magical jobs in making the concept sing for customers.

1450
00:53:48.081 --> 00:53:52.362
And that really helps to help detach people from getting really.

1451
00:53:53.330 --> 00:53:53.610
you know,

1452
00:53:53.950 --> 00:53:56.630
married to a particular phrase or particular words and say,

1453
00:53:56.691 --> 00:53:56.851
look,

1454
00:53:56.890 --> 00:53:57.052
like,

1455
00:53:57.911 --> 00:53:58.950
we're not copywriters.

1456
00:53:58.951 --> 00:53:59.591
Can we all agree?

1457
00:53:59.693 --> 00:54:00.693
We're not copywriters.

1458
00:54:00.771 --> 00:54:02.572
There's a single copywriter in this room.

1459
00:54:02.689 --> 00:54:07.111
So we should not pretend we're copywriters and pretend that we know the best way to say this.

1460
00:54:07.470 --> 00:54:09.111
Let's let the copywriters do their jobs later.

1461
00:54:09.376 --> 00:54:11.376
But can we all agree this is what we mean?

1462
00:54:11.861 --> 00:54:14.329
And so if someone comes with a jargony thing like that,

1463
00:54:14.361 --> 00:54:15.829
like actionable insights,

1464
00:54:16.657 --> 00:54:16.907
I mean,

1465
00:54:17.111 --> 00:54:18.501
I don't know what you mean by that.

1466
00:54:18.657 --> 00:54:20.423
And so if I'm in there as the facilitator,

1467
00:54:20.454 --> 00:54:22.142
I could be the dummy.

1468
00:54:22.173 --> 00:54:22.642
I don't know.

1469
00:54:22.778 --> 00:54:52.374
what insight what action and let's get down and maybe what we get to is too wordy and everybody will complain it's who are just fine we'll let the copywriter fix it so let's go back to like what you expect like recap this too so when we say a term like actual insight like and you say concept it's like really one like figuring out that the so what behind it and really what the so what sounds like it's like what you said before it's like hey what is the value that our

1470
00:54:52.490 --> 00:55:03.610
target buyer is going to get from it right what is the identity of this too like will we be known for what we are known for and is it enough to get people to change what they're doing

1471
00:55:03.960 --> 00:55:21.632
today is that is that what we're getting at when you're kind of explaining that concept yeah yeah like the whole thing we're trying to get at in good positioning is we're trying to make it really easy to answer the question why pick us over the other ways you could solve this problem that's

1472
00:55:21.694 --> 00:55:32.194
it that's all we're trying to get at like customers coming in and they're looking at three other things plus today they're using a spreadsheet and whatever and they're coming in and that's the answer they want like

1473
00:55:32.496 --> 00:55:33.877
Why pick you over everybody else?

1474
00:55:34.758 --> 00:55:36.959
And so in order to do a good job of that,

1475
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:45.170
we have to very clearly articulate what's the value you're going to get from us that you can't get anywhere else.

1476
00:55:47.311 --> 00:55:49.108
So we really center everything around that.

1477
00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:51.936
I like that.

1478
00:55:52.295 --> 00:55:52.780
I like that.

1479
00:55:53.061 --> 00:55:54.670
I don't know exactly how I'd run it now,

1480
00:55:54.717 --> 00:55:59.967
but I think you just changed my concept of how I just do positioning in general is like,

1481
00:56:01.030 --> 00:56:01.467
how can...

1482
00:56:01.932 --> 00:56:03.654
you do it every other different way.

1483
00:56:04.595 --> 00:56:06.398
And then what's unique about us?

1484
00:56:06.777 --> 00:56:07.859
Like that is just so.

1485
00:56:07.957 --> 00:56:08.359
Well,

1486
00:56:08.437 --> 00:56:09.781
that's what we should be doing.

1487
00:56:09.859 --> 00:56:10.320
Like in this,

1488
00:56:10.460 --> 00:56:12.820
in the starting point of a positioning exercise,

1489
00:56:13.640 --> 00:56:14.523
we'll start with this.

1490
00:56:14.562 --> 00:56:15.546
Like if you didn't exist,

1491
00:56:15.609 --> 00:56:16.187
what would you do?

1492
00:56:16.609 --> 00:56:16.804
Right?

1493
00:56:16.843 --> 00:56:17.726
Like if you didn't exist,

1494
00:56:17.727 --> 00:56:18.562
what would a customer do?

1495
00:56:19.171 --> 00:56:19.531
And they'll say,

1496
00:56:19.532 --> 00:56:19.671
well,

1497
00:56:19.672 --> 00:56:20.750
they might just do it manually,

1498
00:56:20.875 --> 00:56:21.453
pen and paper,

1499
00:56:21.515 --> 00:56:21.906
spreadsheet,

1500
00:56:21.937 --> 00:56:22.234
whatever.

1501
00:56:23.031 --> 00:56:25.937
Or they might use one of these products or one of these products.

1502
00:56:26.078 --> 00:56:30.343
And usually you can bucket those products into different approaches,

1503
00:56:30.796 --> 00:56:31.000
right?

1504
00:56:31.836 --> 00:56:34.618
So one approach would be put all the piece parts together,

1505
00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:35.441
you know,

1506
00:56:35.620 --> 00:56:41.167
and so I would be using best of breed point solutions or the other approach might be to pick a platform.

1507
00:56:42.144 --> 00:56:42.886
And so I'm going to

1508
00:56:43.284 --> 00:56:46.089
I'm not actually competing with products.

1509
00:56:46.331 --> 00:56:48.886
I'm competing with different approaches to the problem.

1510
00:56:49.433 --> 00:56:53.120
And then I should be able to and this is part of the stuff that I get into in the second book.

1511
00:56:53.464 --> 00:56:55.995
I should be able to have a conversation with the customer that says,

1512
00:56:56.058 --> 00:56:56.214
look,

1513
00:56:56.292 --> 00:56:58.230
like there's different approaches.

1514
00:56:58.592 --> 00:56:59.972
We know we're not the only thing there.

1515
00:57:00.012 --> 00:57:03.333
There's different approaches to this problem and there's pluses and minuses to each approach.

1516
00:57:03.673 --> 00:57:07.494
Like if you don't have a big team or a lot of people or a lot of changes,

1517
00:57:07.556 --> 00:57:08.876
maybe the spreadsheet's fine,

1518
00:57:09.454 --> 00:57:11.415
but then you start scaling and it ain't fine,

1519
00:57:11.595 --> 00:57:11.837
right?

1520
00:57:13.454 --> 00:57:13.595
Oh,

1521
00:57:13.673 --> 00:57:15.923
well now you're scaling and you got a choice.

1522
00:57:15.924 --> 00:57:17.314
You could do it this way or that way.

1523
00:57:17.564 --> 00:57:21.501
The great thing about doing the piece part thing is no lock-in.

1524
00:57:21.923 --> 00:57:23.251
You're not locked into one vendor.

1525
00:57:23.642 --> 00:57:24.611
You can swap something out.

1526
00:57:24.612 --> 00:57:25.533
You can swap something in.

1527
00:57:25.534 --> 00:57:26.204
That's great.

1528
00:57:27.060 --> 00:57:28.582
Like if I was selling piece parts,

1529
00:57:28.642 --> 00:57:29.742
I'd be leaning into that.

1530
00:57:30.164 --> 00:57:31.504
But if I'm selling the platform,

1531
00:57:31.543 --> 00:57:31.863
I'm like,

1532
00:57:31.864 --> 00:57:32.066
you know,

1533
00:57:32.067 --> 00:57:33.285
what's great about the platform?

1534
00:57:33.547 --> 00:57:35.531
Everything integrates shared metadata.

1535
00:57:35.672 --> 00:57:35.828
Oh,

1536
00:57:35.891 --> 00:57:36.648
what do you get with that?

1537
00:57:36.711 --> 00:57:37.031
Well,

1538
00:57:37.531 --> 00:57:41.633
there's all the things actually talk to each other and play nice with each other.

1539
00:57:41.937 --> 00:57:43.844
And here's a bunch of value you get out of that.

1540
00:57:44.062 --> 00:57:46.172
And the things are actually truly integrated.

1541
00:57:46.937 --> 00:57:48.187
And so you pick it right.

1542
00:57:48.219 --> 00:57:49.984
Like if you're more worried about locking,

1543
00:57:50.062 --> 00:57:50.969
you can go this way.

1544
00:57:51.484 --> 00:57:53.672
But if you're more worried about achieving this value,

1545
00:57:53.673 --> 00:57:54.453
we can get over there.

1546
00:57:54.469 --> 00:57:54.594
Well,

1547
00:57:54.609 --> 00:57:55.812
then we got something for you.

1548
00:57:57.300 --> 00:58:00.683
This is circling back to your concept in sales pitch about the perfect world,

1549
00:58:00.763 --> 00:58:00.984
right?

1550
00:58:01.226 --> 00:58:01.406
Yeah.

1551
00:58:01.726 --> 00:58:02.527
We're there for you.

1552
00:58:02.585 --> 00:58:04.128
This is our unique inside of the market.

1553
00:58:04.167 --> 00:58:05.046
And if you don't agree,

1554
00:58:05.210 --> 00:58:06.671
then you might not be a good fit for us.

1555
00:58:06.828 --> 00:58:07.312
I love it.

1556
00:58:07.492 --> 00:58:08.812
And this is the reality in B2B.

1557
00:58:09.109 --> 00:58:11.296
Like we're not the best fit for everybody.

1558
00:58:11.695 --> 00:58:12.359
We're like,

1559
00:58:12.492 --> 00:58:13.359
we never are.

1560
00:58:13.593 --> 00:58:15.874
Like sometimes pen and paper is fine.

1561
00:58:18.078 --> 00:58:20.921
And it was fine when the company started doing it with pen and paper,

1562
00:58:20.968 --> 00:58:22.624
but then something happened and it wasn't fine.

1563
00:58:22.625 --> 00:58:23.906
And that's why they're talking to you now.

1564
00:58:24.499 --> 00:58:24.687
Right?

1565
00:58:24.890 --> 00:58:25.015
So

1566
00:58:25.953 --> 00:58:26.703
I think we...

1567
00:58:26.984 --> 00:58:31.588
We do ourselves a disservice by trying to pretend there's nothing else out in the market,

1568
00:58:31.607 --> 00:58:34.834
but customer knows that there's other ways to get it done.

1569
00:58:35.373 --> 00:58:36.732
And that's their problem.

1570
00:58:37.131 --> 00:58:41.662
Like if they didn't need any insight from you,

1571
00:58:42.240 --> 00:58:44.154
then there would be no sales team.

1572
00:58:46.201 --> 00:58:50.123
They're coming to you trying to figure out why you and not the other people.

1573
00:58:52.216 --> 00:58:53.951
Because I can't tell from looking at your website,

1574
00:58:53.952 --> 00:58:54.795
you all look the same.

1575
00:58:55.396 --> 00:59:11.957
you know and i can't tell because i got a really specific bunch of requirements that none of you talk about and so the customer is coming and like the two things they want to know is you know i want a perspective on the whole market i want to help and i want help with

1576
00:59:11.958 --> 00:59:12.941
the trade-offs like

1577
00:59:13.556 --> 00:59:15.978
Each choice has its own unique set of trade-offs.

1578
00:59:15.998 --> 00:59:17.140
If you can teach me that,

1579
00:59:17.201 --> 00:59:19.963
then I can confidently make a good purchase decision.

1580
00:59:20.322 --> 00:59:21.603
That's our job in sales.

1581
00:59:21.642 --> 00:59:22.525
So it sounds like,

1582
00:59:22.603 --> 00:59:25.306
because I'm going to ask this piece or this clarification,

1583
00:59:25.330 --> 00:59:28.752
because a lot of times when people hear sales,

1584
00:59:28.767 --> 00:59:30.095
like if you're marketing here sales,

1585
00:59:30.127 --> 00:59:30.439
it's like,

1586
00:59:30.720 --> 00:59:30.830
well,

1587
00:59:30.831 --> 00:59:31.595
go convince them.

1588
00:59:32.111 --> 00:59:32.439
Like,

1589
00:59:32.611 --> 00:59:33.392
go say this.

1590
00:59:33.674 --> 00:59:36.283
But what you're saying here is that when you have a solid positioning,

1591
00:59:36.595 --> 00:59:40.205
it takes that lens from convincing to educating.

1592
00:59:40.642 --> 00:59:40.799
Yeah,

1593
00:59:40.830 --> 00:59:41.502
I'm teaching you.

1594
00:59:42.002 --> 00:59:43.002
I'm teaching you how to buy.

1595
00:59:43.228 --> 00:59:43.889
That's my job.

1596
00:59:44.370 --> 00:59:49.499
My job is to teach you how to confidently pick something that's going to be great for you.

1597
00:59:49.601 --> 00:59:49.921
Now I'm

1598
00:59:50.798 --> 00:59:52.741
I think ours is the right thing.

1599
00:59:52.860 --> 00:59:53.802
That's my point of view.

1600
00:59:54.183 --> 00:59:56.745
My point of view is if you're a customer that looks like this,

1601
00:59:57.503 --> 00:59:58.526
our thing is perfect.

1602
00:59:59.050 --> 01:00:00.706
But if you're not a customer that looks like this,

1603
01:00:00.769 --> 01:00:01.526
then we're not.

1604
01:00:02.550 --> 01:00:06.722
You should just keep doing it on a spreadsheet or by one of our competitors.

1605
01:00:06.723 --> 01:00:07.519
And then when you get bigger,

1606
01:00:07.737 --> 01:00:09.331
you'll get to us or something.

1607
01:00:10.675 --> 01:00:15.065
You said earlier that no one on this call right now is a copywriter.

1608
01:00:15.222 --> 01:00:15.706
And I agree.

1609
01:00:16.690 --> 01:00:16.909
But

1610
01:00:17.440 --> 01:00:19.987
I think sometimes PMM are getting put into that.

1611
01:00:20.282 --> 01:00:45.374
copywriting category or that storytelling category yeah and i know that in your career during one interview process you got asked to do a persuasive writing um exercise and then you started doing it when you were hiring people in the market yeah do you think that pmms by default would be more in the category of copywriters or would be more in the category of storytellers oh

1612
01:00:45.921 --> 01:00:48.983
well that's a good question i never really thought about the two as being

1613
01:00:49.226 --> 01:00:49.747
different,

1614
01:00:49.947 --> 01:00:51.088
like wildly different.

1615
01:00:51.369 --> 01:00:53.791
Like in the situation I was talking about earlier,

1616
01:00:54.049 --> 01:00:54.311
you know,

1617
01:00:54.451 --> 01:00:57.072
I'm imagining myself sitting in a room with the CEO,

1618
01:00:57.713 --> 01:00:58.713
the head of product,

1619
01:00:58.714 --> 01:00:59.760
the head of sales,

1620
01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:01.338
I'm the vice president of marketer.

1621
01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:01.978
And it'd be like,

1622
01:01:02.002 --> 01:01:02.682
can we agree?

1623
01:01:02.736 --> 01:01:03.963
We're not copywriters.

1624
01:01:04.018 --> 01:01:04.619
Cause you know,

1625
01:01:04.682 --> 01:01:08.900
last thing I want is the CEO thinking he's the perfect person to write copy.

1626
01:01:09.228 --> 01:01:09.447
Right.

1627
01:01:09.510 --> 01:01:10.447
Um,

1628
01:01:11.744 --> 01:01:12.869
often like,

1629
01:01:13.010 --> 01:01:15.244
like particularly in smaller companies,

1630
01:01:15.588 --> 01:01:16.025
um,

1631
01:01:17.031 --> 01:01:23.459
You might have the luxury of having a copywriter or being able to hire a copywriter for some things,

1632
01:01:23.576 --> 01:01:23.799
right?

1633
01:01:23.838 --> 01:01:28.904
Like potentially the homepage or things that you're going to use a lot.

1634
01:01:29.560 --> 01:01:31.326
But there's an incredible amount of writing.

1635
01:01:31.427 --> 01:01:32.388
In my experience,

1636
01:01:32.404 --> 01:01:35.131
we do an incredible amount of writing in marketing.

1637
01:01:35.365 --> 01:01:39.927
And so one of the things I used to hire for was that.

1638
01:01:39.990 --> 01:01:40.240
I mean,

1639
01:01:40.256 --> 01:01:43.256
there's a lot of things that I can teach you as a.

1640
01:01:43.442 --> 01:01:45.543
if I'm the vice president and you come to work for me,

1641
01:01:45.602 --> 01:01:46.983
there's a lot of things I can teach you,

1642
01:01:47.822 --> 01:01:50.963
but I can't teach you how to write.

1643
01:01:51.123 --> 01:01:52.264
That's a hard thing.

1644
01:01:52.326 --> 01:01:52.444
If,

1645
01:01:52.608 --> 01:01:54.826
if a person is really bad at writing,

1646
01:01:55.326 --> 01:01:58.686
it's a really hard thing to kind of teach them that from nothing.

1647
01:01:59.686 --> 01:02:01.030
You don't have to be a great writer,

1648
01:02:01.123 --> 01:02:03.451
but you at least have to understand a little bit of,

1649
01:02:03.623 --> 01:02:03.873
you know,

1650
01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:05.920
how to be persuasive in writing.

1651
01:02:06.201 --> 01:02:07.201
So I'm an engineer.

1652
01:02:07.405 --> 01:02:08.826
I think I'm a terrible writer,

1653
01:02:09.201 --> 01:02:11.451
but I write good enough to survive.

1654
01:02:11.730 --> 01:02:12.591
in a marketing job.

1655
01:02:14.093 --> 01:02:16.095
I've had folks on my team that,

1656
01:02:16.653 --> 01:02:16.876
man,

1657
01:02:17.575 --> 01:02:21.638
they're not writing good enough to survive in a marketing team.

1658
01:02:22.380 --> 01:02:23.739
And I can't teach you that,

1659
01:02:24.263 --> 01:02:25.567
particularly because I'm an engineer.

1660
01:02:25.583 --> 01:02:26.521
I didn't learn it myself.

1661
01:02:27.302 --> 01:02:29.427
So I did use to screen for that.

1662
01:02:30.536 --> 01:02:37.067
But I do think that if you've ever worked with a really talented copywriter,

1663
01:02:37.739 --> 01:02:41.083
you would see the difference that that

1664
01:02:41.294 --> 01:02:44.077
deep expertise on copywriting makes.

1665
01:02:44.818 --> 01:02:48.562
And so although I think as product marketers,

1666
01:02:48.921 --> 01:02:56.245
you're going to write a lot of stuff because there's just a real big volume of stuff going around and you're not going to have the time to have the copywriter tune everything.

1667
01:02:57.245 --> 01:02:58.433
But at the same time,

1668
01:02:58.933 --> 01:02:59.776
I think it's,

1669
01:03:01.573 --> 01:03:05.073
I think it's wise to understand your limitation and it's,

1670
01:03:05.261 --> 01:03:09.839
and it's wise to really understand that there are people that are amazing at this.

1671
01:03:10.498 --> 01:03:15.538
And if this is really important copy that we think it's,

1672
01:03:15.800 --> 01:03:16.140
you know,

1673
01:03:16.620 --> 01:03:17.241
it's really,

1674
01:03:17.401 --> 01:03:21.519
really important that this copy really sings and really,

1675
01:03:21.581 --> 01:03:23.839
and the homepage is maybe one example of that,

1676
01:03:24.378 --> 01:03:30.066
then it is not wasted money to bring in somebody who's amazing at this stuff to tune it.

1677
01:03:31.644 --> 01:03:32.987
That was always my attitude of it.

1678
01:03:33.003 --> 01:03:34.644
Like I write good enough if we're going to,

1679
01:03:34.784 --> 01:03:35.066
you know,

1680
01:03:36.269 --> 01:03:39.987
like I would write emails and I would write case studies and I would write.

1681
01:03:40.478 --> 01:03:40.738
you know,

1682
01:03:40.879 --> 01:03:42.521
white papers and all that kind of stuff.

1683
01:03:42.821 --> 01:03:45.943
But if we were doing a big forklift on the homepage,

1684
01:03:46.665 --> 01:03:46.946
like

1685
01:03:47.525 --> 01:03:52.751
I would be lobbying hard to get somebody who's really good with the words because it's going to look way better than if I do it.

1686
01:03:54.134 --> 01:03:54.775
Now that's just me.

1687
01:03:54.853 --> 01:03:57.814
Maybe you're better copywriters and you've had better training or whatever.

1688
01:03:58.111 --> 01:03:58.579
But for me,

1689
01:03:58.876 --> 01:03:59.064
like,

1690
01:03:59.532 --> 01:04:00.501
and I would always say it,

1691
01:04:00.502 --> 01:04:00.876
I was like,

1692
01:04:00.954 --> 01:04:01.236
okay,

1693
01:04:01.579 --> 01:04:03.736
we can have the engineer write the homepage.

1694
01:04:04.382 --> 01:04:07.526
Or we could have somebody that knows what the hell they're doing.

1695
01:04:07.527 --> 01:04:09.065
That's what I say about positioning too.

1696
01:04:12.710 --> 01:04:19.397
Like I just think like a good copywriter not only has better training in this stuff and a better background on it,

1697
01:04:19.398 --> 01:04:20.702
a lot of them are English majors,

1698
01:04:20.780 --> 01:04:21.718
a lot of them are very good at this,

1699
01:04:21.765 --> 01:04:23.655
a lot of them have taken a lot of training on it,

1700
01:04:24.015 --> 01:04:25.577
and then they've got a good one,

1701
01:04:25.890 --> 01:04:27.983
has tons and tons and tons of experience.

1702
01:04:28.265 --> 01:04:33.749
It's like the difference between working with me on your positioning or trying to do it in-house.

1703
01:04:33.926 --> 01:04:35.549
You can absolutely do it in-house.

1704
01:04:35.929 --> 01:04:36.691
But if you come with me,

1705
01:04:37.833 --> 01:04:40.456
you're likely to get a better result because I've done it 300 times.

1706
01:04:42.097 --> 01:04:44.363
Digging deeper on that example you pulled up,

1707
01:04:46.448 --> 01:04:47.527
and now as someone who...

1708
01:04:49.147 --> 01:04:50.088
Like your career,

1709
01:04:50.188 --> 01:04:51.609
your point of view on positioning.

1710
01:04:52.311 --> 01:05:03.885
There's another side of reality for some product marketers that there's an expectation that you should write copy and also know how to build the coding of a website.

1711
01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:07.127
And you've seen the job market right now.

1712
01:05:07.377 --> 01:05:08.361
And for product,

1713
01:05:08.471 --> 01:05:09.205
I'm curious,

1714
01:05:09.268 --> 01:05:16.877
like for product marketers who are maybe going through the job search that feel this expectation to do everything.

1715
01:05:17.591 --> 01:05:34.792
how might we apply the principles of positioning to what you have seen through Todd and you from past experience as a hiring manager to what they could possibly do today in those conversations when they want to this is there's a great question this is a great question because you

1716
01:05:34.793 --> 01:05:45.839
know a lot of us especially in the early parts of our careers like we're kind of asked to be generalists to a kind of an extreme right like I want you to code the website and I want you to do this and I want you to,

1717
01:05:45.840 --> 01:05:46.292
you're going to.

1718
01:05:46.627 --> 01:05:47.768
do the copywriting thing,

1719
01:05:48.028 --> 01:05:49.251
be the website coder,

1720
01:05:49.671 --> 01:05:53.192
also be the person that does positioning and sales support and blah,

1721
01:05:53.193 --> 01:05:53.313
blah,

1722
01:05:53.314 --> 01:05:53.454
blah,

1723
01:05:53.455 --> 01:05:53.555
blah,

1724
01:05:53.556 --> 01:05:53.774
blah,

1725
01:05:53.775 --> 01:05:54.294
all this stuff.

1726
01:05:55.473 --> 01:06:01.262
The reality is that most marketers are

1727
01:06:02.364 --> 01:06:03.520
T-shaped, right?

1728
01:06:04.411 --> 01:06:08.536
Like you know a lot about a few things,

1729
01:06:09.864 --> 01:06:12.208
but you got a couple of things that you go deep on.

1730
01:06:12.848 --> 01:06:14.676
And I think for your career,

1731
01:06:15.348 --> 01:06:16.192
it's important.

1732
01:06:16.495 --> 01:06:22.576
to pick those couple of things that you're going to go deep on and really cultivate your skill there.

1733
01:06:24.416 --> 01:06:24.799
And then,

1734
01:06:25.119 --> 01:06:27.900
and then you can position yourself as that and say,

1735
01:06:28.416 --> 01:06:28.721
you know,

1736
01:06:29.478 --> 01:06:34.236
so I always came in and I knew copywriting was never going to be my thing,

1737
01:06:37.018 --> 01:06:38.299
but I'm good at other things.

1738
01:06:38.986 --> 01:06:40.299
So if the job,

1739
01:06:40.518 --> 01:06:44.768
if I was having the interview and the job sounded like a ton of copywriting,

1740
01:06:45.151 --> 01:06:47.334
and not so much this other stuff that I'm good at,

1741
01:06:47.353 --> 01:06:47.472
well,

1742
01:06:47.473 --> 01:06:48.695
that's not a good fit for me.

1743
01:06:49.195 --> 01:06:50.836
But if I go to the job and I'm like,

1744
01:06:51.015 --> 01:06:51.156
hey,

1745
01:06:51.258 --> 01:06:53.078
I'm really good at these three things.

1746
01:06:53.297 --> 01:06:53.859
And if they say,

1747
01:06:53.922 --> 01:06:54.039
well,

1748
01:06:54.359 --> 01:06:55.101
can you write?

1749
01:06:55.102 --> 01:06:55.383
I'm like,

1750
01:06:55.523 --> 01:06:55.742
yeah,

1751
01:06:55.945 --> 01:06:56.719
I can write.

1752
01:06:57.703 --> 01:06:57.820
But

1753
01:06:58.601 --> 01:06:59.469
I'm not saying,

1754
01:06:59.609 --> 01:07:00.289
you know,

1755
01:07:00.406 --> 01:07:02.109
fire your copywriter and hire me.

1756
01:07:02.250 --> 01:07:02.781
But if you say,

1757
01:07:02.828 --> 01:07:03.406
can I write stuff?

1758
01:07:03.469 --> 01:07:03.594
Yeah,

1759
01:07:03.625 --> 01:07:04.203
I can do that.

1760
01:07:04.562 --> 01:07:05.390
Can I code the website?

1761
01:07:05.406 --> 01:07:05.547
Well,

1762
01:07:05.578 --> 01:07:05.906
yeah.

1763
01:07:05.984 --> 01:07:07.515
How much coding are we talking about?

1764
01:07:08.047 --> 01:07:08.312
Like,

1765
01:07:08.890 --> 01:07:10.500
are we just monkeying around a little bit with,

1766
01:07:10.531 --> 01:07:10.703
yeah,

1767
01:07:10.859 --> 01:07:11.078
okay,

1768
01:07:11.109 --> 01:07:11.953
I can do that.

1769
01:07:12.906 --> 01:07:14.547
And so there's this

1770
01:07:14.763 --> 01:07:18.507
basic level that you're going to need across a whole bunch of things.

1771
01:07:19.027 --> 01:07:21.652
But then I think you want to pick the thing that you want to go deep on,

1772
01:07:22.331 --> 01:07:22.472
right?

1773
01:07:22.473 --> 01:07:24.511
Like if you're really good at lead generation,

1774
01:07:24.855 --> 01:07:25.714
like I knew people,

1775
01:07:25.855 --> 01:07:28.316
like I had folks when I hired people,

1776
01:07:28.917 --> 01:07:29.496
typically

1777
01:07:30.121 --> 01:07:34.277
I knew the profile of the job and I had an understanding of,

1778
01:07:34.558 --> 01:07:35.871
I need them deep on this,

1779
01:07:36.027 --> 01:07:39.261
but they need to be passable at this other stuff.

1780
01:07:39.652 --> 01:07:41.511
And I'm trying to find a fit for that.

1781
01:07:41.886 --> 01:07:44.308
So if you can indicate the thing that you're deep on,

1782
01:07:44.747 --> 01:07:46.909
And that's a fit for the thing that I want somebody on.

1783
01:07:46.910 --> 01:07:47.491
Then that's great.

1784
01:07:47.530 --> 01:07:48.190
So for example,

1785
01:07:48.231 --> 01:07:49.112
I had a,

1786
01:07:49.113 --> 01:07:49.413
I had,

1787
01:07:49.772 --> 01:07:52.053
I'm thinking about the last time I had a really big team.

1788
01:07:52.733 --> 01:07:52.952
Um,

1789
01:07:53.538 --> 01:07:57.944
I had a gal on my team and she would be described as a product marketer,

1790
01:07:58.358 --> 01:08:00.139
but she would just really great writer.

1791
01:08:00.319 --> 01:08:00.506
Like,

1792
01:08:01.210 --> 01:08:01.397
like,

1793
01:08:01.460 --> 01:08:01.850
and again,

1794
01:08:01.881 --> 01:08:03.366
I wouldn't call her a copywriter,

1795
01:08:03.444 --> 01:08:07.163
but she was really good at what I would call persuasive writing.

1796
01:08:07.210 --> 01:08:08.053
Like if you needed to,

1797
01:08:08.366 --> 01:08:11.600
to write a crunchy think piece on something,

1798
01:08:12.194 --> 01:08:12.772
she was your gal.

1799
01:08:13.339 --> 01:08:14.899
So she was really good at blog posts.

1800
01:08:14.900 --> 01:08:17.219
She was really good at white papers,

1801
01:08:17.542 --> 01:08:18.081
really good at,

1802
01:08:18.120 --> 01:08:21.678
we had a buyer's guide and she like crushed that thing,

1803
01:08:22.178 --> 01:08:22.881
a whole bunch of stuff.

1804
01:08:23.561 --> 01:08:26.483
She wasn't that great at like email campaigns,

1805
01:08:26.546 --> 01:08:29.460
but I had another person who was amazing at email campaigns,

1806
01:08:29.461 --> 01:08:30.756
but couldn't write to save her life,

1807
01:08:30.866 --> 01:08:31.241
really.

1808
01:08:31.397 --> 01:08:31.647
I mean,

1809
01:08:31.648 --> 01:08:32.288
she was okay,

1810
01:08:32.444 --> 01:08:33.850
but couldn't do all the things.

1811
01:08:34.288 --> 01:08:41.006
So I'm trying to piece together a team of these people that each one has kind of a deep specialty in something.

1812
01:08:41.647 --> 01:08:41.819
and

1813
01:08:42.087 --> 01:08:45.470
but could be passable at all the other things they need to do to get their job done.

1814
01:08:45.531 --> 01:08:48.554
Like typically that's what I was looking for inside the team.

1815
01:08:48.914 --> 01:08:49.675
I wasn't just like,

1816
01:08:50.097 --> 01:08:50.215
oh,

1817
01:08:50.238 --> 01:08:51.840
I want a generic product marketer.

1818
01:08:51.894 --> 01:08:53.316
Like they come in all flavors.

1819
01:08:53.879 --> 01:08:54.355
I'd be like,

1820
01:08:54.418 --> 01:08:54.558
well,

1821
01:08:54.597 --> 01:08:54.816
I need,

1822
01:08:55.019 --> 01:08:58.949
I need a product marketer to really crush this leadership stuff that we want to go do.

1823
01:08:59.058 --> 01:09:04.324
Or I need a product marketer who's really going to crush this sales enablement problem I've got right now,

1824
01:09:04.511 --> 01:09:04.793
where we,

1825
01:09:04.902 --> 01:09:05.152
you know,

1826
01:09:05.168 --> 01:09:07.777
we really need to work with the sales team and get this stuff going.

1827
01:09:07.871 --> 01:09:07.996
Or,

1828
01:09:08.418 --> 01:09:08.636
you know,

1829
01:09:08.652 --> 01:09:10.371
we're in the middle of this big positioning.

1830
01:09:10.815 --> 01:09:12.216
And I need repositioning.

1831
01:09:12.217 --> 01:09:16.000
And I need somebody who really understands that and really understands the change management stuff around that.

1832
01:09:16.001 --> 01:09:18.906
It can work well with the product team and work well with the sales team.

1833
01:09:19.406 --> 01:09:20.164
And who's got that?

1834
01:09:22.250 --> 01:09:22.750
So I think,

1835
01:09:22.984 --> 01:09:23.226
you know,

1836
01:09:23.289 --> 01:09:23.609
for me,

1837
01:09:24.851 --> 01:09:28.398
I went deep on the positioning thing very early in my career,

1838
01:09:28.539 --> 01:09:30.320
and that served me very well.

1839
01:09:31.039 --> 01:09:33.179
And in interviews,

1840
01:09:33.273 --> 01:09:36.617
I sounded very smart about the positioning stuff.

1841
01:09:37.179 --> 01:09:37.757
And then they'd say,

1842
01:09:37.836 --> 01:09:37.976
well,

1843
01:09:37.977 --> 01:09:39.117
can you program the website?

1844
01:09:39.148 --> 01:09:39.601
And I'm like,

1845
01:09:40.151 --> 01:09:40.272
Yeah,

1846
01:09:40.273 --> 01:09:42.483
I can program the stupid website if you want me to do that.

1847
01:09:42.522 --> 01:09:43.327
I can do that too.

1848
01:09:43.936 --> 01:09:44.977
I got an engineering background.

1849
01:09:45.097 --> 01:09:46.418
I can write you SQL queries.

1850
01:09:46.459 --> 01:09:47.940
Want to talk about SQL queries?

1851
01:09:47.941 --> 01:09:48.620
I'm great at that.

1852
01:09:53.225 --> 01:09:54.928
But if we got talking about writing,

1853
01:09:55.288 --> 01:09:57.233
I would be asking a lot of questions.

1854
01:09:57.491 --> 01:09:59.272
If the job was 99%

1855
01:09:59.288 --> 01:09:59.655
writing,

1856
01:09:59.670 --> 01:10:00.889
they're going to be doing what they get here.

1857
01:10:01.608 --> 01:10:03.233
And it's probably not the right fit for me.

1858
01:10:04.670 --> 01:10:05.905
I like that.

1859
01:10:05.906 --> 01:10:06.639
Here's the other thing.

1860
01:10:06.717 --> 01:10:08.920
Here's the other bit of advice I would give to product marketers.

1861
01:10:09.295 --> 01:10:11.920
Do not oversell yourself.

1862
01:10:12.156 --> 01:10:13.938
in places where you're not that great.

1863
01:10:15.239 --> 01:10:16.541
Nothing good comes from that.

1864
01:10:18.080 --> 01:10:21.424
Like you want to actually be honest about where you're deep and where you're not.

1865
01:10:22.049 --> 01:10:24.346
And you might lose some jobs that you thought looked good,

1866
01:10:24.385 --> 01:10:25.307
but I'm telling you,

1867
01:10:25.308 --> 01:10:34.158
you won't regret that because the worst thing is you oversell yourself in a certain area and then you come in and then you can't live up to those expectations.

1868
01:10:34.174 --> 01:10:36.705
You're going to get canned and that sucks.

1869
01:10:38.283 --> 01:10:38.721
I love it.

1870
01:10:38.846 --> 01:10:39.643
Such a good tip.

1871
01:10:40.012 --> 01:10:43.014
This is something that we spoke about and it's always narrowing down,

1872
01:10:43.055 --> 01:10:43.276
right?

1873
01:10:43.334 --> 01:10:44.936
Marketing is a very big umbrella.

1874
01:10:45.557 --> 01:10:47.498
Product marketing is still very misunderstood,

1875
01:10:47.561 --> 01:10:49.463
hence why we have this podcast.

1876
01:10:50.002 --> 01:10:54.049
So the more you understand what is your superpower and how can you position yourself,

1877
01:10:54.690 --> 01:10:56.432
the better it will be not only for your career,

1878
01:10:56.448 --> 01:11:00.729
but for your objectives and making sure that you're putting your best work out there.

1879
01:11:01.369 --> 01:11:01.619
April,

1880
01:11:01.666 --> 01:11:02.760
before we hop off,

1881
01:11:04.041 --> 01:11:05.541
we already spoke about your books already.

1882
01:11:05.994 --> 01:11:08.401
What are other ways that people can engage,

1883
01:11:08.494 --> 01:11:09.416
follow your work?

1884
01:11:10.576 --> 01:11:14.618
and any other spaces that people should know about that they don't know to engage with you.

1885
01:11:15.216 --> 01:11:15.419
Yeah,

1886
01:11:15.618 --> 01:11:19.755
like I'm not very active on any social media except LinkedIn.

1887
01:11:19.817 --> 01:11:22.380
And I'm not even particularly active on LinkedIn,

1888
01:11:22.381 --> 01:11:23.278
to be honest.

1889
01:11:23.419 --> 01:11:23.536
So,

1890
01:11:23.958 --> 01:11:27.567
but you can follow me on LinkedIn and occasionally I drop a pithy note.

1891
01:11:28.755 --> 01:11:30.208
I think if you're just getting started,

1892
01:11:30.209 --> 01:11:32.020
the books are a good starting point,

1893
01:11:32.098 --> 01:11:32.708
particularly,

1894
01:11:32.802 --> 01:11:33.583
obviously awesome.

1895
01:11:33.598 --> 01:11:34.817
I would read that book first.

1896
01:11:34.864 --> 01:11:36.208
I think that's a good starting point.

1897
01:11:36.614 --> 01:11:37.380
And then if you want to go...

1898
01:11:37.544 --> 01:11:38.465
deep on this,

1899
01:11:38.525 --> 01:11:41.727
like you're in the middle of doing positioning work and you want to go deep on it.

1900
01:11:42.629 --> 01:11:43.531
Two resources.

1901
01:11:43.711 --> 01:11:43.910
One,

1902
01:11:43.930 --> 01:11:44.832
I have a podcast.

1903
01:11:44.871 --> 01:11:46.535
It's called Positioning with April Dunford.

1904
01:11:46.715 --> 01:11:52.035
And I do a bunch of solo episodes there where we're going deep on a particular topic related to positioning.

1905
01:11:52.036 --> 01:11:53.176
So that's a good resource.

1906
01:11:53.496 --> 01:11:53.785
And then

1907
01:11:54.957 --> 01:11:55.926
I also have a newsletter.

1908
01:11:56.129 --> 01:11:56.379
Again,

1909
01:11:57.082 --> 01:12:02.426
I'm mainly writing something when the urge strikes me or if there's something interesting that's come up with a client.

1910
01:12:02.427 --> 01:12:02.973
And then I'm like,

1911
01:12:03.035 --> 01:12:03.176
oh,

1912
01:12:03.177 --> 01:12:03.973
to teach people this.

1913
01:12:04.410 --> 01:12:06.035
But I think that's a good resource too.

1914
01:12:06.644 --> 01:12:08.745
The idea there is the same as the podcast.

1915
01:12:08.746 --> 01:12:12.909
I'm going to pick a particular aspect of positioning and go really deep on it.

1916
01:12:13.452 --> 01:12:15.936
And you can find out all about those on my website,

1917
01:12:15.952 --> 01:12:17.233
which is AprilDunford.com.

1918
01:12:19.335 --> 01:12:19.694
Love it.

1919
01:12:19.819 --> 01:12:20.335
Amazing.

1920
01:12:21.538 --> 01:12:23.280
It was awesome having you on the show.

1921
01:12:23.358 --> 01:12:24.061
Thank you very much.

1922
01:12:24.405 --> 01:12:24.546
Well,

1923
01:12:24.608 --> 01:12:25.327
thanks for having me.

1924
01:12:25.358 --> 01:12:25.890
This was great.

1925
01:12:25.921 --> 01:12:26.249
Thank you,

1926
01:12:26.280 --> 01:12:26.530
April.

1927
01:12:27.311 --> 01:12:29.765
That's another episode of We're

1928
01:12:30.530 --> 01:12:30.890
Not

1929
01:12:31.311 --> 01:12:32.905
Marketers. Catch you next time.

1930
01:12:32.906 --> 01:12:33.171
All right.

1931
01:12:33.172 --> 01:12:33.608
See you guys.

1932
01:12:44.824 --> 01:12:47.106
Thank you for listening to Win at Marketers.

1933
01:12:47.707 --> 01:12:48.688
If you like what you heard,

1934
01:12:48.948 --> 01:12:49.768
please subscribe,

1935
01:12:50.108 --> 01:12:51.248
review our podcast,

1936
01:12:51.549 --> 01:12:53.514
and share this episode with other PMMs.

1937
01:12:54.092 --> 01:12:55.358
Thanks again and see you soon.