WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.020 --> 00:00:06.367 So if people are very concerned about where and how can we better explain things to customers, 2 00:00:07.289 --> 00:00:10.492 that's a big flag that they're asking the wrong questions. 3 00:00:10.789 --> 00:00:14.797 Because if that's the question you're preoccupied by, 4 00:00:14.891 --> 00:00:19.422 that means that you really haven't understood what is actually salient, 5 00:00:19.562 --> 00:00:21.984 what's actually important to customers. 6 00:00:22.047 --> 00:00:27.672 The energy transition is happening, 7 00:00:27.953 --> 00:00:28.812 but is it fair? 8 00:00:29.428 --> 00:00:31.290 Is it working for people like you and me, 9 00:00:31.870 --> 00:00:33.933 or just for big market players? 10 00:00:35.054 --> 00:00:36.035 Welcome to Energetic. 11 00:00:36.296 --> 00:00:37.195 I am Mayim Cornelis, 12 00:00:37.277 --> 00:00:39.316 an expert in energy and climate policies, 13 00:00:39.675 --> 00:00:42.581 and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. 14 00:00:43.339 --> 00:00:43.785 Activists, 15 00:00:43.800 --> 00:00:44.402 scientists, 16 00:00:44.527 --> 00:00:45.261 policymakers, 17 00:00:45.652 --> 00:00:47.652 the real people making real change, 18 00:00:48.230 --> 00:00:49.620 often against the odds. 19 00:00:50.589 --> 00:00:50.870 Here, 20 00:00:51.089 --> 00:00:53.339 we do not settle for surface-level takes. 21 00:00:53.777 --> 00:00:55.214 We dig into the challenges, 22 00:00:55.355 --> 00:00:56.152 the solutions, 23 00:00:56.292 --> 00:00:57.120 and the lessons. 24 00:00:57.504 --> 00:00:59.586 that do not always make the headlines. 25 00:01:00.287 --> 00:01:01.028 And in doing so, 26 00:01:01.529 --> 00:01:03.529 we rediscover something vital, 27 00:01:03.971 --> 00:01:06.190 our ability to trust in institutions, 28 00:01:06.330 --> 00:01:07.330 to believe in change, 29 00:01:07.635 --> 00:01:10.276 and to reclaim our power to act. 30 00:01:10.721 --> 00:01:12.541 Because if we want just resilience, 31 00:01:12.838 --> 00:01:14.174 if we want just transition, 32 00:01:14.580 --> 00:01:17.471 we need to understand what it takes to make it happen. 33 00:01:18.049 --> 00:01:18.862 And more importantly, 34 00:01:19.299 --> 00:01:21.174 we need to believe that we can. 35 00:01:21.908 --> 00:01:22.752 Let's get into it. 36 00:01:25.240 --> 00:01:26.381 So today on Energy Hitch, 37 00:01:26.382 --> 00:01:31.946 we explore a question that keeps resurfacing in all the conversations I hear across the energy industry, 38 00:01:32.586 --> 00:01:34.586 no matter the trend or the technology. 39 00:01:35.368 --> 00:01:40.274 Why is it so hard to build solutions people actually want to use? 40 00:01:41.094 --> 00:01:41.571 My guest, 41 00:01:41.914 --> 00:01:42.477 Sean Lilliel, 42 00:01:42.821 --> 00:01:46.164 has spent his entire career trying to answer that question. 43 00:01:46.774 --> 00:01:48.258 14 years in the Silicon Valley, 44 00:01:48.696 --> 00:01:50.305 work across five continents, 45 00:01:50.580 --> 00:01:51.582 roles at Opower, 46 00:01:51.781 --> 00:01:52.362 EnergyNog, 47 00:01:52.562 --> 00:01:55.445 and now as managing partner at Dalbeck Insight, 48 00:01:55.984 --> 00:02:01.871 where he supports some of the world's largest energy and tech companies on their most complex digital challenges. 49 00:02:02.808 --> 00:02:05.418 Sean works at the intersection of product management, 50 00:02:05.652 --> 00:02:06.855 behavioral science, 51 00:02:07.042 --> 00:02:09.246 and data-intensive digital solutions. 52 00:02:09.621 --> 00:02:11.949 He helps teams break out their assumption, 53 00:02:12.449 --> 00:02:14.668 rethink how users make decisions, 54 00:02:15.042 --> 00:02:20.042 and design products that match real human motivations rather than imagined ones. 55 00:02:21.004 --> 00:02:21.905 In this conversation, 56 00:02:22.385 --> 00:02:26.850 we look at what the energy sector still misunderstands about people, 57 00:02:27.350 --> 00:02:30.557 why customer adoption remains a broken promise, 58 00:02:30.994 --> 00:02:36.416 and how good product culture can become a lever for a fairer and faster energy transition. 59 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:39.174 So we will start with Sharon's own journey, 60 00:02:39.455 --> 00:02:43.127 shaped by early work in demand-side management and behavioral nudges, 61 00:02:43.533 --> 00:02:47.330 and then broaden out to the structural challenges facing energy companies. 62 00:02:47.660 --> 00:02:48.600 As electrification, 63 00:02:48.701 --> 00:02:52.901 flexibility and distributed resources deployment accelerates. 64 00:02:54.940 --> 00:02:55.100 Sean, 65 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:56.022 welcome to the show. 66 00:02:58.045 --> 00:02:58.905 Thanks a lot for having me. 67 00:02:58.959 --> 00:02:59.741 Thanks for the invitation. 68 00:03:00.545 --> 00:03:01.303 So you spent 69 00:03:01.764 --> 00:03:07.303 14 years in the Silicon Valley before moving into the European energy transition. 70 00:03:08.069 --> 00:03:08.897 When you look back, 71 00:03:09.272 --> 00:03:14.912 what kind of mindset from that period still guides the way you think about product culture today? 72 00:03:16.116 --> 00:03:16.256 Yeah, 73 00:03:16.396 --> 00:03:17.718 I think so. 74 00:03:17.838 --> 00:03:23.062 I have lots of very fond memories from that time. 75 00:03:23.184 --> 00:03:26.629 I met my spouse in California, 76 00:03:27.848 --> 00:03:31.434 still have lots of friends and some family in California. 77 00:03:32.293 --> 00:03:38.465 But I think there are really two things that have stayed with me that are very, 78 00:03:38.496 --> 00:03:41.496 very different from a lot of other markets. 79 00:03:42.324 --> 00:03:43.590 One is velocity. 80 00:03:44.256 --> 00:03:46.418 And the other one is customer centricity. 81 00:03:46.898 --> 00:03:51.625 The speed at which things move in California in particular, 82 00:03:52.844 --> 00:03:53.523 but in the U.S. 83 00:03:53.562 --> 00:03:54.125 as a whole, 84 00:03:55.008 --> 00:03:57.890 is really quite different from anywhere else. 85 00:03:58.594 --> 00:04:00.390 I think there's a few reasons for that. 86 00:04:00.406 --> 00:04:01.828 There's some cultural reasons, 87 00:04:01.906 --> 00:04:02.156 which, 88 00:04:03.078 --> 00:04:03.312 you know, 89 00:04:03.640 --> 00:04:05.031 there's a lot of debate as to, 90 00:04:05.953 --> 00:04:06.203 you know, 91 00:04:06.281 --> 00:04:10.859 whether the pendulum swings a little bit too far towards velocity in the U.S. 92 00:04:11.109 --> 00:04:11.640 where people... 93 00:04:12.524 --> 00:04:14.446 The work-life balance in the U.S. 94 00:04:14.487 --> 00:04:18.671 is not the same as the work-life balance that we enjoy in Europe. 95 00:04:19.312 --> 00:04:22.452 So it's not to say that it's a magical, 96 00:04:22.616 --> 00:04:24.257 perfect paradigm. 97 00:04:24.936 --> 00:04:27.702 But certainly for tech companies, 98 00:04:27.780 --> 00:04:29.327 for energy companies as well, 99 00:04:30.327 --> 00:04:31.624 things do move very, 100 00:04:31.640 --> 00:04:32.140 very quickly. 101 00:04:32.468 --> 00:04:39.265 I go back to the San Francisco area every year for about five or six weeks. 102 00:04:40.686 --> 00:04:41.077 and 103 00:04:41.684 --> 00:04:43.367 And I'm reminded of this, 104 00:04:43.407 --> 00:04:43.847 you know, 105 00:04:43.888 --> 00:04:52.306 and it can be very silly little things like the fact that everyone will respond to you in less than 48 hours. 106 00:04:52.502 --> 00:04:53.548 So if you email. 107 00:04:54.497 --> 00:04:54.697 you know, 108 00:04:54.737 --> 00:04:56.438 almost anybody about anything, 109 00:04:56.659 --> 00:04:58.081 you're going to get an answer back, 110 00:04:58.280 --> 00:04:58.520 you know, 111 00:04:58.602 --> 00:04:59.501 either within a day, 112 00:04:59.622 --> 00:05:00.341 day and a half. 113 00:05:01.524 --> 00:05:05.106 And so even just those little human interactions, 114 00:05:05.107 --> 00:05:05.309 you know, 115 00:05:05.411 --> 00:05:06.911 things are iterating faster, 116 00:05:07.192 --> 00:05:08.528 things are progressing faster, 117 00:05:08.653 --> 00:05:09.989 decisions are being made, 118 00:05:10.653 --> 00:05:10.888 you know, 119 00:05:10.950 --> 00:05:11.731 all the way to, 120 00:05:13.216 --> 00:05:13.435 you know, 121 00:05:13.731 --> 00:05:17.138 bigger topics like just risk, 122 00:05:18.185 --> 00:05:20.841 appetite for risk and risk tolerance. 123 00:05:21.481 --> 00:05:22.591 I think there's a uh 124 00:05:23.021 --> 00:05:28.968 a higher tolerance for failing and potentially failing, 125 00:05:29.910 --> 00:05:30.148 you know, 126 00:05:30.308 --> 00:05:31.652 in a pretty visible, 127 00:05:32.394 --> 00:05:33.691 pretty dramatic manner. 128 00:05:34.753 --> 00:05:35.832 And I'm talking about, 129 00:05:36.113 --> 00:05:37.777 so it could be at the scale of a team. 130 00:05:38.316 --> 00:05:47.097 So failing very visibly in front of your team or failing very visibly in front of the market, 131 00:05:47.972 --> 00:05:51.144 both of those are okay and so 132 00:05:52.035 --> 00:05:52.425 I think 133 00:05:53.333 --> 00:05:58.014 That's something that I try to bring to certainly our team, 134 00:05:58.955 --> 00:05:59.916 to our projects, 135 00:05:59.917 --> 00:06:00.694 to our clients, 136 00:06:00.975 --> 00:06:08.217 to help them move a little bit faster and be a little bit more comfortable taking risks. 137 00:06:08.678 --> 00:06:09.069 And again, 138 00:06:09.100 --> 00:06:13.381 it could be just as much at the personal level in front of your team. 139 00:06:14.694 --> 00:06:17.412 Don't be afraid to make mistakes, 140 00:06:17.413 --> 00:06:17.897 to fail, 141 00:06:18.303 --> 00:06:19.397 to make bad decisions. 142 00:06:19.881 --> 00:06:20.006 Yeah, 143 00:06:20.053 --> 00:06:20.506 to try. 144 00:06:21.237 --> 00:06:21.617 Yeah, 145 00:06:21.658 --> 00:06:22.058 exactly. 146 00:06:22.098 --> 00:06:22.818 At the end of the day, 147 00:06:22.898 --> 00:06:28.426 that's what it comes down to is being comfortable to try something because nobody has a crystal ball. 148 00:06:28.863 --> 00:06:29.289 Obviously, 149 00:06:29.328 --> 00:06:31.023 you make educated decisions, 150 00:06:31.250 --> 00:06:32.226 you calculate risk, 151 00:06:32.305 --> 00:06:34.289 but no one has a crystal ball. 152 00:06:34.328 --> 00:06:40.273 So you have to try something and you have to be ready that maybe it's not going to work exactly the way you planned. 153 00:06:41.101 --> 00:06:41.242 Yeah, 154 00:06:41.351 --> 00:06:43.461 it's very much a scientific method, 155 00:06:43.601 --> 00:06:43.836 right? 156 00:06:43.914 --> 00:06:49.883 You try and you see if the conclusion arrives to what you were expecting or if not. 157 00:06:50.805 --> 00:06:52.906 It's really interesting what you were sharing, 158 00:06:52.966 --> 00:06:53.867 because indeed, 159 00:06:54.486 --> 00:06:58.025 this kind of this capacity to try. 160 00:06:58.486 --> 00:06:59.904 And at the end of the day, 161 00:06:59.951 --> 00:07:02.349 it also shows this kind of vulnerability. 162 00:07:02.505 --> 00:07:03.185 Like we try, 163 00:07:03.247 --> 00:07:03.685 we fail. 164 00:07:03.810 --> 00:07:04.787 It's part of life. 165 00:07:05.310 --> 00:07:05.990 We are human. 166 00:07:06.349 --> 00:07:07.544 And at the same time, 167 00:07:08.107 --> 00:07:08.341 well, 168 00:07:08.342 --> 00:07:11.044 the Silicon Valley is known to be one of the, 169 00:07:11.185 --> 00:07:11.544 let's say, 170 00:07:11.732 --> 00:07:12.591 tech-centric, 171 00:07:12.826 --> 00:07:14.388 most tech-centric place. 172 00:07:14.497 --> 00:07:17.794 It's like it feels almost inhuman, 173 00:07:18.404 --> 00:07:19.232 not inhumane. 174 00:07:19.673 --> 00:07:21.793 but inhuman given the pace of it, 175 00:07:21.873 --> 00:07:23.912 like from an external eye. 176 00:07:24.475 --> 00:07:26.916 So it's really interesting what you are saying, 177 00:07:26.975 --> 00:07:28.014 that at the end of the day, 178 00:07:28.092 --> 00:07:38.037 it's probably one of the most profoundly human place to be because people dare to be human and dare to fail and dare to try again. 179 00:07:39.350 --> 00:07:39.631 And yeah, 180 00:07:39.944 --> 00:07:42.319 they made a mistake and it didn't work. 181 00:07:42.365 --> 00:07:44.756 They didn't take the right decision, 182 00:07:44.819 --> 00:07:45.444 but that's okay. 183 00:07:45.553 --> 00:07:46.678 Tomorrow will be another day. 184 00:07:47.141 --> 00:07:47.341 Right. 185 00:07:47.521 --> 00:07:49.482 It's whereas it's true that, 186 00:07:49.822 --> 00:07:49.941 yeah, 187 00:07:49.982 --> 00:07:50.441 in Europe, 188 00:07:50.562 --> 00:07:51.982 sometimes it feels that, 189 00:07:52.221 --> 00:07:52.342 OK, 190 00:07:52.561 --> 00:07:53.404 you take a bad turn, 191 00:07:53.424 --> 00:07:54.182 a bad decision, 192 00:07:54.283 --> 00:07:56.963 and then it haunts you for the rest of your life or something. 193 00:07:57.603 --> 00:07:57.885 Yeah. 194 00:07:58.963 --> 00:07:59.080 Yeah. 195 00:07:59.166 --> 00:07:59.861 I think there's a, 196 00:08:00.783 --> 00:08:01.025 you know, 197 00:08:01.400 --> 00:08:03.447 I'm not an anthropologist, 198 00:08:03.525 --> 00:08:07.072 but it would be fascinating to have an anthropologist perspective on, 199 00:08:07.619 --> 00:08:07.869 you know, 200 00:08:07.870 --> 00:08:11.650 how the how the cultures have shaped these these mentalities. 201 00:08:11.682 --> 00:08:12.229 And again, 202 00:08:12.713 --> 00:08:14.025 we're talking in generalities. 203 00:08:14.026 --> 00:08:14.463 Of course, 204 00:08:14.494 --> 00:08:15.588 there are people in Europe that... 205 00:08:15.689 --> 00:08:16.790 that take tons of risk. 206 00:08:16.810 --> 00:08:20.774 And there are amazing entrepreneurs in Europe who move very quickly. 207 00:08:21.434 --> 00:08:22.297 And conversely, 208 00:08:22.958 --> 00:08:26.258 there are a lot of people in the US who are very risk averse, 209 00:08:26.297 --> 00:08:27.743 especially in the energy sector. 210 00:08:27.797 --> 00:08:29.844 But speaking in generalities, 211 00:08:30.461 --> 00:08:32.727 I think in the US, 212 00:08:32.758 --> 00:08:35.024 I remember when, 213 00:08:35.446 --> 00:08:38.868 because obviously I've made lots of mistakes along the way, 214 00:08:39.024 --> 00:08:44.977 I've made bad decisions and have experienced projects that didn't go the way we hoped. 215 00:08:45.453 --> 00:08:48.254 And there's a real focus on lessons learned. 216 00:08:48.754 --> 00:08:48.873 So, 217 00:08:49.213 --> 00:08:49.475 you know, 218 00:08:49.553 --> 00:08:54.998 people really invite discussion and feedback around, 219 00:08:55.475 --> 00:08:55.717 you know, 220 00:08:55.732 --> 00:08:55.959 okay, 221 00:08:56.014 --> 00:08:57.014 this thing happened. 222 00:08:57.357 --> 00:08:59.553 Let's break down why it happened. 223 00:09:00.537 --> 00:09:01.935 And let's build on that. 224 00:09:01.951 --> 00:09:02.639 Let's understand. 225 00:09:02.654 --> 00:09:03.232 Let's learn. 226 00:09:03.857 --> 00:09:04.482 As opposed to, 227 00:09:04.498 --> 00:09:05.420 you know, 228 00:09:05.701 --> 00:09:09.404 I feel like in some of the work environments in Europe, 229 00:09:09.451 --> 00:09:12.014 there's a little bit more hesitation because... 230 00:09:12.729 --> 00:09:15.011 Perhaps there's going to be some judgment about, 231 00:09:15.032 --> 00:09:15.192 well, 232 00:09:15.231 --> 00:09:15.472 you know, 233 00:09:15.692 --> 00:09:16.273 why did you, 234 00:09:17.153 --> 00:09:17.396 you know, 235 00:09:17.435 --> 00:09:18.935 why did you make that decision? 236 00:09:18.974 --> 00:09:19.216 You know, 237 00:09:20.017 --> 00:09:27.044 what mistakes in judgment did you make that led you to have this problem or this difficulty? 238 00:09:27.146 --> 00:09:28.146 And it's not, 239 00:09:29.466 --> 00:09:29.700 you know, 240 00:09:29.888 --> 00:09:30.341 it comes, 241 00:09:30.513 --> 00:09:36.294 it seems like it comes more at a kind of a nitpicking perspective as opposed to, 242 00:09:36.295 --> 00:09:37.231 you know, 243 00:09:37.310 --> 00:09:37.528 okay, 244 00:09:37.591 --> 00:09:38.653 this was an experience. 245 00:09:39.028 --> 00:09:41.778 Let's figure out what we can learn from that experience. 246 00:09:42.568 --> 00:09:46.511 And that's very interesting because that circles back to customer service. 247 00:09:47.314 --> 00:09:48.154 Like trying to, 248 00:09:48.314 --> 00:09:56.084 what do we learn from this bad experience the consumer had instead of trying to find the culprit and, 249 00:09:56.201 --> 00:09:56.443 you know, 250 00:09:56.662 --> 00:10:01.224 blame all the chain of command for a mistake. 251 00:10:01.630 --> 00:10:03.756 And then leading to immobility, 252 00:10:03.787 --> 00:10:04.287 of course, 253 00:10:04.490 --> 00:10:05.849 and leading to, 254 00:10:06.568 --> 00:10:06.693 yeah, 255 00:10:06.927 --> 00:10:10.490 perhaps a fear of negative feedback. 256 00:10:11.740 --> 00:10:11.849 Yeah. 257 00:10:12.332 --> 00:10:12.452 Yeah, 258 00:10:12.472 --> 00:10:14.953 I think the second thing that 259 00:10:16.033 --> 00:10:17.673 I think the U.S. 260 00:10:17.732 --> 00:10:17.853 and, 261 00:10:17.974 --> 00:10:18.275 you know, 262 00:10:18.294 --> 00:10:20.396 I don't want to be too focused on the U.S. 263 00:10:20.435 --> 00:10:25.755 because I do see that there are certain markets like the U.K. 264 00:10:26.935 --> 00:10:27.412 or in some 265 00:10:27.959 --> 00:10:29.701 Scandinavian countries where, 266 00:10:30.154 --> 00:10:30.388 you know, 267 00:10:30.654 --> 00:10:31.716 this is done very well. 268 00:10:31.763 --> 00:10:33.263 But there's a big focus. 269 00:10:33.920 --> 00:10:34.482 I think the U.K. 270 00:10:34.779 --> 00:10:36.404 actually does this really well. 271 00:10:36.420 --> 00:10:37.779 There's a big culture around. 272 00:10:38.528 --> 00:10:39.389 Customer centricity, 273 00:10:39.709 --> 00:10:40.950 focusing on the customer, 274 00:10:41.050 --> 00:10:42.030 what customer wants, 275 00:10:42.292 --> 00:10:42.530 you know, 276 00:10:42.613 --> 00:10:44.292 speaking to them in their language. 277 00:10:44.952 --> 00:10:53.046 And I think the way that companies acquire this reflex over time is by digging into those lessons learned. 278 00:10:53.047 --> 00:10:55.984 This is by focusing on the problems, 279 00:10:56.124 --> 00:10:57.843 focusing on stuff that hasn't worked, 280 00:10:58.593 --> 00:10:59.171 understanding, 281 00:10:59.202 --> 00:11:02.124 having a deep understanding of why it didn't work. 282 00:11:02.827 --> 00:11:04.593 and then getting those insights, 283 00:11:04.921 --> 00:11:06.640 the customer insights to understand, 284 00:11:06.656 --> 00:11:06.874 okay, 285 00:11:06.890 --> 00:11:07.015 well, 286 00:11:07.077 --> 00:11:07.718 this is what people... 287 00:11:08.608 --> 00:11:27.169 misinterpreted or this is the assumptions we made about the value people were looking for and those were you know the wrong assumptions um and so we have to shift the value proposition etc yeah that's uh extremely interesting and that uh also uh like 288 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:33.513 circles back with uh the work i've been doing with ombudsmen so the bodies who are in charge of uh 289 00:11:33.684 --> 00:11:39.190 Handling the disputes between energy consumers and the suppliers or the energy businesses. 290 00:11:39.229 --> 00:11:41.331 And the culture of, 291 00:11:41.553 --> 00:11:41.909 let's say, 292 00:11:42.471 --> 00:11:48.159 redress in the UK is way stronger than it is in other countries. 293 00:11:48.518 --> 00:11:49.362 Where I live in Italy, 294 00:11:49.377 --> 00:11:51.807 you have quite a strong culture of litigation. 295 00:11:52.401 --> 00:11:55.245 You have a strong culture of complaining, 296 00:11:56.323 --> 00:11:58.651 but it's not as structured. 297 00:11:58.885 --> 00:12:03.010 and the way you will use the lessons from... 298 00:12:03.372 --> 00:12:07.256 The mistake is way less structured than the one you find in the UK. 299 00:12:07.574 --> 00:12:13.480 And those are only two examples because I've worked also with ombudsmen in Belgium, 300 00:12:13.504 --> 00:12:16.684 in France and in many different EU countries, 301 00:12:16.723 --> 00:12:16.965 actually. 302 00:12:17.426 --> 00:12:19.191 So that's very interesting and very, 303 00:12:19.246 --> 00:12:20.270 very true what you said. 304 00:12:20.332 --> 00:12:21.082 But yeah, 305 00:12:21.363 --> 00:12:24.535 I would like to circle back to your earlier work. 306 00:12:25.379 --> 00:12:27.035 You worked with Opower and 307 00:12:27.613 --> 00:12:31.754 Enernoc. So this job puts you right inside the first generation of... 308 00:12:32.028 --> 00:12:34.410 Behavioral Digital Tools for Energy. 309 00:12:35.371 --> 00:12:35.551 Yeah. 310 00:12:36.274 --> 00:12:42.899 So what did those years teach you about how people respond to energy information? 311 00:12:43.141 --> 00:12:45.578 What has stayed surprisingly constant? 312 00:12:46.539 --> 00:12:46.703 Yeah, 313 00:12:46.805 --> 00:12:51.242 so those experiences were really foundational for me. 314 00:12:51.992 --> 00:12:53.727 So in chronological order, 315 00:12:54.867 --> 00:12:58.774 I was at Enernoc over 15 years ago, 316 00:12:58.852 --> 00:12:59.461 I think now. 317 00:13:00.088 --> 00:13:01.289 And they were, 318 00:13:01.309 --> 00:13:02.211 as far as I know, 319 00:13:02.470 --> 00:13:17.502 they were the first company to have a software as a service solution to find energy efficiency improvements in commercial buildings using the building management software. 320 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:23.627 So there's a thing called a BMS that manages all the lights, 321 00:13:23.628 --> 00:13:24.111 the heating, 322 00:13:24.236 --> 00:13:24.736 cooling, 323 00:13:25.314 --> 00:13:26.408 all kinds of different equipment, 324 00:13:26.658 --> 00:13:26.892 you know, 325 00:13:26.955 --> 00:13:28.955 typically in larger buildings. 326 00:13:29.692 --> 00:13:32.996 increasingly that's done more and more by a piece of software. 327 00:13:33.035 --> 00:13:40.619 And Internoctr is one of the first companies to figure out that you can build software to run on top of that data, 328 00:13:41.822 --> 00:13:48.088 run algorithms on the thousands of data points that you get from all the equipment in the building, 329 00:13:48.384 --> 00:13:52.353 and that the algorithms could find energy efficiency opportunities. 330 00:13:53.056 --> 00:13:55.416 So it worked quite well, 331 00:13:56.541 --> 00:13:57.666 that product. 332 00:13:57.988 --> 00:14:00.231 still exists in the market today. 333 00:14:00.350 --> 00:14:02.211 It's under a company called Measurable. 334 00:14:03.293 --> 00:14:04.254 Silicon Valley goes, 335 00:14:04.274 --> 00:14:06.575 there's lots of mergers and acquisitions, 336 00:14:07.481 --> 00:14:08.856 but that product is still out there. 337 00:14:09.598 --> 00:14:21.114 And what really was a game changer for me was when we started to deploy the first few projects and we were finding energy efficiency opportunities, 338 00:14:21.129 --> 00:14:25.739 but we kept getting these mystery consumption and 339 00:14:26.428 --> 00:14:32.855 waste or these mystery consumption excesses that we couldn't explain in the data. 340 00:14:33.234 --> 00:14:35.457 And as we talked to the building engineers, 341 00:14:35.816 --> 00:14:36.816 the building operators, 342 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:37.519 the staff, 343 00:14:38.363 --> 00:14:41.386 we started to find all these anecdotes of 344 00:14:41.907 --> 00:14:42.207 you know, 345 00:14:43.669 --> 00:14:44.649 a chess club. 346 00:14:45.511 --> 00:14:46.770 This was with a school. 347 00:14:47.012 --> 00:14:49.536 There's a chess club that came on Wednesday evenings. 348 00:14:49.716 --> 00:14:50.016 And, 349 00:14:50.595 --> 00:14:50.837 you know, 350 00:14:50.852 --> 00:14:56.360 the building schedule would shut down the heating after school was over. 351 00:14:57.462 --> 00:15:00.032 And so this chess club would play chess, 352 00:15:00.501 --> 00:15:00.751 you know, 353 00:15:01.188 --> 00:15:01.610 cold. 354 00:15:02.204 --> 00:15:06.516 And so they made friends with one of the janitors who had figured out that, 355 00:15:06.532 --> 00:15:06.751 you know, 356 00:15:06.766 --> 00:15:07.095 if he 357 00:15:07.999 --> 00:15:14.607 There was a manual override that he could hit with a broomstick and it would bring the heat back on. 358 00:15:15.408 --> 00:15:24.411 And then there's another anecdote about an executive who was staying late and so the lights were put on for that person. 359 00:15:24.521 --> 00:15:28.833 But then that override was never brought back to the usual schedule. 360 00:15:28.834 --> 00:15:31.521 And so now you had a building with the lights on 24-7, 361 00:15:32.146 --> 00:15:32.287 etc., 362 00:15:32.521 --> 00:15:32.646 etc. 363 00:15:33.146 --> 00:15:34.802 And as we were finding these things, 364 00:15:34.818 --> 00:15:35.990 I started to realize. 365 00:15:37.331 --> 00:15:43.036 This was the first game changer for me is that we can't engineer ourselves out of the problem. 366 00:15:44.157 --> 00:15:50.383 We will have to take into account the human dynamics in the problem, 367 00:15:50.548 --> 00:15:51.907 all the human factors, 368 00:15:51.923 --> 00:15:52.883 the human element, 369 00:15:53.587 --> 00:16:01.649 all these little illogical factors that that has to be taken into account somehow. 370 00:16:01.696 --> 00:16:02.009 Wow. 371 00:16:02.180 --> 00:16:05.899 So that was the first moment of clarity where I realized that 372 00:16:07.055 --> 00:16:11.981 software by itself or equipment by itself was not going to do the trick. 373 00:16:12.763 --> 00:16:13.723 Coincidentally, 374 00:16:13.782 --> 00:16:14.841 around that time, 375 00:16:15.161 --> 00:16:15.841 around the early 376 00:16:16.583 --> 00:16:17.067 2010s, I think, 377 00:16:17.083 --> 00:16:19.169 is when Opower was founded. 378 00:16:20.067 --> 00:16:22.794 They made a lot of noise very quickly in California. 379 00:16:22.872 --> 00:16:27.372 So I knew about them even back when I was at Interac. 380 00:16:28.231 --> 00:16:34.669 And they were really the first company to do behavioral science applied at mass market scale. 381 00:16:35.291 --> 00:16:40.936 And weren't the ones who were saying people think about their energy the way they think about their toilet paper, 382 00:16:41.499 --> 00:16:43.323 about nine minutes per year or something? 383 00:16:43.737 --> 00:16:45.245 Yeah, 384 00:16:45.284 --> 00:16:46.143 so originally, 385 00:16:46.760 --> 00:16:49.487 so that number originally, 386 00:16:49.768 --> 00:16:51.651 to give credit where credit is due, 387 00:16:51.995 --> 00:16:55.198 that number originally came from an Accenture survey. 388 00:16:55.963 --> 00:16:56.839 So Accenture, 389 00:16:56.854 --> 00:16:58.057 I don't know if they still do it today, 390 00:16:58.089 --> 00:17:02.963 but Accenture used to do this annual energy consumer survey and report. 391 00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:04.745 And so they had... 392 00:17:05.455 --> 00:17:07.678 identified this one data point and Opower, 393 00:17:07.979 --> 00:17:08.217 you know, 394 00:17:08.258 --> 00:17:09.518 kind of took it and ran with it. 395 00:17:10.561 --> 00:17:10.920 But yes, 396 00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:12.943 the broader point they had was that, 397 00:17:13.104 --> 00:17:13.342 you know, 398 00:17:13.443 --> 00:17:18.350 energy is not top of mind for people outside of the energy sector. 399 00:17:18.568 --> 00:17:19.506 That's just the reality. 400 00:17:19.811 --> 00:17:20.811 Even post, 401 00:17:21.514 --> 00:17:21.733 you know, 402 00:17:21.734 --> 00:17:24.248 2022 energy crisis, 403 00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:25.014 you know, 404 00:17:25.201 --> 00:17:25.483 yes, 405 00:17:25.748 --> 00:17:27.389 it's a priority for households, 406 00:17:27.451 --> 00:17:31.014 but it's not the number one thing that people think about all the time. 407 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:42.973 So Opower was able to figure out that there's a whole body of academic research that understands how people make decisions and what drives human behavior. 408 00:17:43.934 --> 00:17:47.441 And so they had a crazy idea to say, 409 00:17:47.520 --> 00:17:47.660 well, 410 00:17:47.661 --> 00:17:52.801 if we have all of these well-codified principles, 411 00:17:53.645 --> 00:17:57.441 why don't we use that and use that to design the software, 412 00:17:57.582 --> 00:17:58.567 use that to design the... 413 00:17:58.987 --> 00:18:19.771 the interventions and to motivate people's behavior specifically on energy and you know leverage software to be able to do that across millions and millions of customers and so that that was the the product itself was a pretty pretty huge success they ended up being acquired by oracle in 2016 i believe and so now the the 414 00:18:19.786 --> 00:18:27.568 product again you know still exists but it exists under an oracle banner now no that's that's really really interesting because that's 415 00:18:28.223 --> 00:18:28.523 Later, 416 00:18:28.644 --> 00:18:31.888 something that you brought back to Europe, 417 00:18:31.987 --> 00:18:32.208 right? 418 00:18:32.306 --> 00:18:33.087 Back to France. 419 00:18:33.688 --> 00:18:33.810 Yeah, 420 00:18:33.888 --> 00:18:35.149 just for the listeners, 421 00:18:35.552 --> 00:18:36.935 you are French and American. 422 00:18:36.989 --> 00:18:38.255 You have your own citizenship. 423 00:18:38.310 --> 00:18:41.278 So that's why you also have a very French surname, 424 00:18:41.778 --> 00:18:43.802 but a wonderful 425 00:18:44.192 --> 00:18:45.442 American accent as well. 426 00:18:45.661 --> 00:18:45.802 Yeah, 427 00:18:47.067 --> 00:18:48.099 I'm undercover. 428 00:18:48.927 --> 00:18:51.021 I'm pretty undercover as a French guy. 429 00:18:51.364 --> 00:18:51.911 My wife, 430 00:18:53.786 --> 00:18:54.552 she feels like she... 431 00:18:55.635 --> 00:19:00.180 She really got the short end of the stick because she got a French guy who sounds like a Californian. 432 00:19:02.242 --> 00:19:02.363 Yeah, 433 00:19:02.641 --> 00:19:03.942 yeah. 434 00:19:03.943 --> 00:19:04.160 Okay, 435 00:19:04.324 --> 00:19:12.246 so you've been back to Europe and you founded a first business and now you have merged as Balbeck Insight. 436 00:19:12.856 --> 00:19:13.949 And in your work, 437 00:19:14.090 --> 00:19:21.434 you have noticed that the energy sector remains kind of stuck in a tech first reflex. 438 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:23.309 So does he agree with you? 439 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:25.181 That's really, 440 00:19:25.460 --> 00:19:28.864 really kind of maddening to see how little, 441 00:19:29.204 --> 00:19:29.602 let's say, 442 00:19:29.985 --> 00:19:36.368 people experience is taken into consideration when building something and putting it out there. 443 00:19:37.048 --> 00:19:37.774 And yeah, 444 00:19:37.954 --> 00:19:39.610 that's why I really wanted you on the show, 445 00:19:39.696 --> 00:19:41.813 because I really want to pick your brain on it. 446 00:19:42.470 --> 00:19:46.641 So let's start first with the science. 447 00:19:46.876 --> 00:19:52.360 How do you identify when a team is designing around its own ascension? 448 00:19:52.664 --> 00:19:54.161 rather than its users. 449 00:19:55.052 --> 00:19:55.432 Yeah, 450 00:19:55.553 --> 00:19:55.893 so it's, 451 00:19:56.433 --> 00:19:56.673 you know, 452 00:19:56.874 --> 00:19:57.656 there are a few things. 453 00:19:57.835 --> 00:20:03.199 I think one thing I would say before answering your question directly is, 454 00:20:03.660 --> 00:20:03.902 you know, 455 00:20:04.003 --> 00:20:08.605 I have a lot of empathy for the energy sector as a whole, 456 00:20:09.269 --> 00:20:10.527 because historically, 457 00:20:11.566 --> 00:20:13.269 long planning cycles, 458 00:20:13.706 --> 00:20:14.910 risk management, 459 00:20:15.269 --> 00:20:15.847 safety, 460 00:20:16.706 --> 00:20:17.675 all of those things, 461 00:20:17.753 --> 00:20:21.660 especially when energy companies were still vertically integrated, 462 00:20:22.644 --> 00:20:23.441 which is still largely. 463 00:20:24.020 --> 00:20:24.902 the case in the U.S., 464 00:20:25.462 --> 00:20:26.402 not the case in Europe. 465 00:20:27.023 --> 00:20:32.027 But it was fundamental to take time, 466 00:20:32.206 --> 00:20:32.988 be safe, 467 00:20:33.112 --> 00:20:34.027 control risk, 468 00:20:34.167 --> 00:20:34.667 et cetera. 469 00:20:35.433 --> 00:20:36.691 And so in the early 470 00:20:37.495 --> 00:20:39.714 2000s, I think it was still, 471 00:20:41.191 --> 00:20:49.988 I had lots and lots of empathy for this tech-first reflex and the kind of infrastructure or hardware-first reflex. 472 00:20:51.331 --> 00:20:51.753 as we get... 473 00:20:51.932 --> 00:20:52.993 further along into the 474 00:20:53.854 --> 00:20:54.995 2000s, I feel like, 475 00:20:55.395 --> 00:20:55.676 you know, 476 00:20:56.075 --> 00:20:59.219 it's time to start to accelerate that change. 477 00:20:59.258 --> 00:21:01.204 And so to answer your question, 478 00:21:01.438 --> 00:21:01.680 you know, 479 00:21:02.383 --> 00:21:04.383 there are a few things that we could see right away, 480 00:21:05.407 --> 00:21:09.196 which are a bit of a flag for us when we come into a project. 481 00:21:09.743 --> 00:21:10.946 The first thing is, 482 00:21:12.040 --> 00:21:20.696 when we see that the team is really concerned about how can we find ways or find 483 00:21:21.064 --> 00:21:23.345 places in the product, 484 00:21:23.945 --> 00:21:25.265 in the customer journey, 485 00:21:25.906 --> 00:21:26.824 in the emails, 486 00:21:26.886 --> 00:21:27.566 whatever it is, 487 00:21:28.484 --> 00:21:30.843 to explain things better to customers. 488 00:21:31.507 --> 00:21:38.109 So if people are very concerned about where and how can we better explain things to customers, 489 00:21:39.343 --> 00:21:42.750 that's a big flag that they're asking the wrong questions. 490 00:21:43.390 --> 00:21:46.328 Because if that's the question you're... 491 00:21:47.136 --> 00:21:48.157 preoccupied by, 492 00:21:48.277 --> 00:21:53.276 that means that you really haven't understood what is actually salient, 493 00:21:53.397 --> 00:21:55.815 what's actually important to customers. 494 00:21:56.635 --> 00:22:04.627 And you're focused on getting them to understand what is important to you as an energy company, 495 00:22:05.065 --> 00:22:06.080 as a software company. 496 00:22:06.658 --> 00:22:12.127 So that's really one of the first flags that we see pretty consistently when companies will ask us, 497 00:22:12.205 --> 00:22:12.408 well, 498 00:22:12.674 --> 00:22:13.049 we want... 499 00:22:13.824 --> 00:22:27.417 to launch a flexibility or demand response service or a feature inside an app or a new customer journey to encourage people to participate in demand response events. 500 00:22:28.417 --> 00:22:30.237 And so we're trying to figure out, 501 00:22:30.362 --> 00:22:33.878 can you help us with behavioral science to explain demand response? 502 00:22:34.487 --> 00:22:34.800 Yeah, 503 00:22:35.081 --> 00:22:35.831 yeah, 504 00:22:36.050 --> 00:22:36.159 yeah. 505 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:37.050 It's the wrong question. 506 00:22:37.143 --> 00:22:37.784 Fundamentally, 507 00:22:37.846 --> 00:22:38.722 that's the wrong question. 508 00:22:38.956 --> 00:22:39.487 There isn't. 509 00:22:40.668 --> 00:22:45.994 some behavioral science magic that we can sprinkle that all of a sudden will make demand response. 510 00:22:45.995 --> 00:22:50.955 The usual answer that is taken is being taken by the marketing team. 511 00:22:51.142 --> 00:22:52.017 We will be saying, 512 00:22:52.658 --> 00:22:54.400 we will do a communication campaign, 513 00:22:54.963 --> 00:22:58.330 but very often this communication campaign is not targeted. 514 00:22:58.408 --> 00:23:01.783 It's not like not starting an assumption and not going anywhere. 515 00:23:02.174 --> 00:23:05.049 So what would be the right question to ask then. 516 00:23:06.096 --> 00:23:06.252 Yeah, 517 00:23:06.314 --> 00:23:08.892 so I think there's one... 518 00:23:09.564 --> 00:23:18.409 behavioral principle that's very very useful to be aware of this was something that was i think cataloged for the first time back in the 519 00:23:19.112 --> 00:23:19.230 70s 520 00:23:20.253 --> 00:23:36.995 1970s so it's you know it's we're not talking about something that was you know discovered last year um but it's so this was i think out of stanford in the 70s and it's it's called a false consensus bias and the idea basically is that 521 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:39.181 What we think is normal, 522 00:23:40.283 --> 00:23:44.107 we assume everybody also thinks that that's normal. 523 00:23:44.146 --> 00:23:46.810 So what we think is intuitive or even just what 524 00:23:47.169 --> 00:23:48.654 I think is intuitive, 525 00:23:49.248 --> 00:23:50.552 what I think is pretty, 526 00:23:51.216 --> 00:23:52.716 what I think is easy, 527 00:23:53.716 --> 00:23:57.435 I'm going to make assumptions and design customer journeys, 528 00:23:57.482 --> 00:23:58.357 design products, 529 00:23:58.919 --> 00:23:59.498 offerings, 530 00:23:59.544 --> 00:24:00.122 whatever it is, 531 00:24:01.248 --> 00:24:04.232 based on those assumptions of what I think is logical. 532 00:24:04.952 --> 00:24:06.093 and intuitive, 533 00:24:06.094 --> 00:24:06.654 et cetera. 534 00:24:06.794 --> 00:24:07.534 But the thing is, 535 00:24:08.175 --> 00:24:08.878 for Marine, 536 00:24:09.495 --> 00:24:10.499 that's very different, 537 00:24:10.800 --> 00:24:11.398 most likely. 538 00:24:12.402 --> 00:24:14.480 For a customer in Denmark, 539 00:24:14.566 --> 00:24:15.644 that's very different, 540 00:24:15.683 --> 00:24:16.925 et cetera, 541 00:24:16.926 --> 00:24:17.308 et cetera. 542 00:24:17.425 --> 00:24:29.097 So one of the first things that we always try to work with our clients on is to brief them on their own limitations. 543 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:29.269 Yeah, 544 00:24:29.331 --> 00:24:34.160 their own biases of how the these mental shortcuts that are going to 545 00:24:34.464 --> 00:24:38.326 work against them and try to help them break away. 546 00:24:38.506 --> 00:24:44.412 And that usually is a pretty significant quick win because it helps them think about it. 547 00:24:44.413 --> 00:24:49.897 It helps them see how they're being very company centric, 548 00:24:50.858 --> 00:24:52.858 even if they have like, 549 00:24:53.420 --> 00:24:53.670 you know, 550 00:24:53.686 --> 00:24:54.748 a communication that 551 00:24:55.246 --> 00:24:56.728 makes good use of humor, 552 00:24:57.668 --> 00:24:59.432 communication that's very clear, 553 00:25:00.072 --> 00:25:01.412 that's very concise. 554 00:25:01.631 --> 00:25:02.635 Maybe on paper, 555 00:25:03.135 --> 00:25:03.650 everything, 556 00:25:03.854 --> 00:25:05.135 the marketing campaign, 557 00:25:05.197 --> 00:25:05.854 whatever it is, 558 00:25:07.518 --> 00:25:08.939 it's using all the best practices, 559 00:25:08.978 --> 00:25:09.822 it looks very good, 560 00:25:10.478 --> 00:25:12.525 but the engagement results are disappointing. 561 00:25:12.760 --> 00:25:17.291 And usually a lot of times that's because they're using all the right practices, 562 00:25:17.354 --> 00:25:19.088 but they're talking about the wrong thing. 563 00:25:19.713 --> 00:25:19.854 Yeah. 564 00:25:20.228 --> 00:25:23.416 So where we try to help reorient is to... 565 00:25:23.602 --> 00:25:25.885 to try to figure out what is really salient. 566 00:25:26.725 --> 00:25:33.449 And that's another behavioral notion of what do people perceive as being important for them. 567 00:25:33.894 --> 00:25:36.293 So understanding what's going to be salient to them, 568 00:25:37.035 --> 00:25:42.113 which usually has nothing to do with the energy company or the tech company. 569 00:25:43.348 --> 00:25:47.004 And then focusing on that for the UX, 570 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:48.894 for the customer journey, 571 00:25:48.926 --> 00:25:49.488 the offering, 572 00:25:49.863 --> 00:25:50.394 whatever it is. 573 00:25:51.826 --> 00:25:51.986 Yeah, 574 00:25:52.247 --> 00:25:58.311 so it's really this kind of subtle choices that you call salient points. 575 00:25:58.831 --> 00:26:00.237 They can be linked to wording, 576 00:26:00.456 --> 00:26:01.034 timing, 577 00:26:01.417 --> 00:26:01.894 framing. 578 00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:04.081 They are probably way more. 579 00:26:04.417 --> 00:26:07.183 But can you share an example where, 580 00:26:07.581 --> 00:26:07.847 you know, 581 00:26:07.909 --> 00:26:15.175 a small design decision or when you helped a client and that transformed adoption or engagement? 582 00:26:15.987 --> 00:26:16.175 Yeah, 583 00:26:16.237 --> 00:26:16.550 sure. 584 00:26:16.894 --> 00:26:19.394 So there are a couple of... 585 00:26:19.826 --> 00:26:21.227 examples I can think of, 586 00:26:21.888 --> 00:26:27.776 one of the things that's really interesting is that it is really a case by case thing. 587 00:26:27.854 --> 00:26:31.081 So there isn't like a magical playbook where, 588 00:26:31.636 --> 00:26:31.901 you know, 589 00:26:31.940 --> 00:26:35.261 if you use this behavioral principle or that behavioral principle, 590 00:26:35.503 --> 00:26:36.362 all of a sudden, 591 00:26:36.862 --> 00:26:37.097 you know, 592 00:26:37.144 --> 00:26:39.487 you're going to double your engagement or whatever. 593 00:26:40.253 --> 00:26:48.737 It really is a matter of understanding what's going to be salient for customers in the specific context of that journey of that. 594 00:26:48.842 --> 00:27:06.220 product whatever it is there's a startup that we've been doing a lot of help um so we've been giving a lot of help to in france called niberté watts they're a demand response direct to consumer demand response uh app yeah they don't work through it through energy retailers and 595 00:27:07.032 --> 00:27:15.329 when we first started working with them you know just like every well-intentioned uh player in the energy sector and 596 00:27:16.090 --> 00:27:17.871 One of the first questions they asked us is, 597 00:27:17.892 --> 00:27:18.133 you know, 598 00:27:18.134 --> 00:27:18.573 we need to, 599 00:27:18.912 --> 00:27:25.797 there's a certain way that we have to monetize demand response with the TSO, 600 00:27:26.141 --> 00:27:28.360 with the transmission system operator. 601 00:27:28.446 --> 00:27:33.133 So in order to trade that demand response in the market, 602 00:27:33.774 --> 00:27:35.992 it needs to behave a certain way. 603 00:27:36.571 --> 00:27:38.274 So how do we explain that? 604 00:27:38.368 --> 00:27:40.477 Can you help us explain that to customers? 605 00:27:41.414 --> 00:27:42.071 And of course, 606 00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:42.914 you know. 607 00:27:43.490 --> 00:27:45.052 My answer is that you can't. 608 00:27:45.593 --> 00:27:49.095 There's no way that you will ever have the time, 609 00:27:49.716 --> 00:27:54.638 the attention span to be able to explain any of that to your users. 610 00:27:54.724 --> 00:27:58.482 And they had been pulling their hair out, 611 00:27:58.763 --> 00:27:59.005 you know, 612 00:27:59.083 --> 00:27:59.521 trying to, 613 00:28:00.005 --> 00:28:04.036 they had all these different versions and all these different approaches. 614 00:28:04.833 --> 00:28:05.396 And again, 615 00:28:05.397 --> 00:28:05.974 they were like, 616 00:28:06.474 --> 00:28:09.021 the design was very good. 617 00:28:09.052 --> 00:28:10.318 The language was funny. 618 00:28:10.739 --> 00:28:11.161 like I'm 619 00:28:12.082 --> 00:28:17.224 They were doing everything right in terms of the cosmetic aspects, 620 00:28:18.064 --> 00:28:19.361 but they were focused on the wrong thing. 621 00:28:19.384 --> 00:28:21.666 So what we did was, 622 00:28:21.822 --> 00:28:22.541 so Liberté Watt, 623 00:28:22.627 --> 00:28:23.127 and again, 624 00:28:23.128 --> 00:28:24.705 it has to be specific to the product. 625 00:28:24.706 --> 00:28:25.408 So Liberté Watt, 626 00:28:26.408 --> 00:28:32.431 they reward customers for participating in demand response events with points. 627 00:28:32.572 --> 00:28:33.353 And those points, 628 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:35.447 they have a bunch of partnerships with retailers, 629 00:28:36.588 --> 00:28:40.384 like electronics or gyms or whatever. 630 00:28:40.416 --> 00:28:40.775 Sure. 631 00:28:41.138 --> 00:28:45.561 And those points will convert to gift cards for, 632 00:28:46.522 --> 00:28:46.663 yeah, 633 00:28:46.682 --> 00:28:47.745 to buy AirPods or, 634 00:28:47.784 --> 00:28:48.026 you know, 635 00:28:48.045 --> 00:28:48.307 whatever. 636 00:28:49.127 --> 00:28:56.877 So what they've done is they've really made it all about gamification to be able to win as many points as possible, 637 00:28:57.049 --> 00:28:58.268 to be able to convert, 638 00:28:58.409 --> 00:28:58.643 you know, 639 00:28:58.674 --> 00:28:59.143 these points. 640 00:28:59.721 --> 00:29:00.596 So what we said was, 641 00:29:00.659 --> 00:29:00.815 look, 642 00:29:01.862 --> 00:29:08.893 what is salient to someone who's coming and using your app is not the market mechanisms. 643 00:29:09.666 --> 00:29:11.107 to monetize demand response. 644 00:29:11.948 --> 00:29:13.509 It's not what's salient to them. 645 00:29:13.550 --> 00:29:18.978 What's salient to them is how do I win as many points as possible so that 646 00:29:19.337 --> 00:29:20.915 I can get a bunch of stuff, 647 00:29:21.399 --> 00:29:21.642 right? 648 00:29:22.360 --> 00:29:35.907 So we completely changed the way they were thinking about the customer journey and made it focused on getting customers to play as quickly as possible. 649 00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:37.532 So when you think about a video game, 650 00:29:38.314 --> 00:29:39.329 there's no like 651 00:29:40.178 --> 00:29:55.351 big explanation about all the universe around the video game and who all the characters are and all the different levels they just get you to play they get you to start playing and you learn as you start playing so 652 00:29:55.375 --> 00:29:57.570 that's really what we focused on is how can we 653 00:29:58.248 --> 00:30:07.237 pull people into the UX as quickly as possible and get them to start earning points and get them to start, 654 00:30:07.534 --> 00:30:07.776 you know, 655 00:30:08.019 --> 00:30:09.136 participating in events, 656 00:30:09.198 --> 00:30:11.464 getting feedback and get them engaged. 657 00:30:11.503 --> 00:30:11.620 So 658 00:30:13.542 --> 00:30:15.940 I think now they're just a couple of years old, 659 00:30:15.941 --> 00:30:17.253 but I think they passed like 660 00:30:18.175 --> 00:30:20.269 30,000 users or something like that. 661 00:30:20.284 --> 00:30:22.956 So they've had a really, 662 00:30:23.034 --> 00:30:25.940 really rapid growth as far as, 663 00:30:25.956 --> 00:30:26.222 you know. 664 00:30:27.084 --> 00:30:30.264 As far as demand response in France could, 665 00:30:30.784 --> 00:30:31.024 you know, 666 00:30:31.106 --> 00:30:32.106 could hope to grow. 667 00:30:32.665 --> 00:30:33.727 They've done really well, 668 00:30:33.766 --> 00:30:34.544 especially given that, 669 00:30:35.106 --> 00:30:35.348 you know, 670 00:30:35.349 --> 00:30:39.364 they're not tied to any particular energy retailer. 671 00:30:40.489 --> 00:30:40.630 Yeah, 672 00:30:40.669 --> 00:30:40.786 no, 673 00:30:40.887 --> 00:30:45.302 that's very interesting also because you can make comparisons with other sectors. 674 00:30:45.364 --> 00:30:45.661 Like, 675 00:30:46.161 --> 00:30:46.567 I don't know, 676 00:30:47.005 --> 00:30:52.395 I use Duolingo for languages and I don't usually play video games, 677 00:30:52.426 --> 00:30:54.083 but I'm very addicted to Duolingo. 678 00:30:54.333 --> 00:30:54.926 and how... 679 00:30:55.272 --> 00:30:55.492 You know, 680 00:30:55.612 --> 00:30:57.373 I have this mini rewards, 681 00:30:58.035 --> 00:31:02.459 like points for absolutely nothing and just play with friends and so on. 682 00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:03.260 And yeah, 683 00:31:03.377 --> 00:31:03.697 indeed, 684 00:31:03.783 --> 00:31:05.299 it's like very easy, 685 00:31:05.658 --> 00:31:10.190 very annoying for the people in the room who are not playing with me on Duolingo. 686 00:31:10.588 --> 00:31:11.814 But that makes it, 687 00:31:12.627 --> 00:31:12.752 yeah, 688 00:31:12.846 --> 00:31:14.783 that makes it fun and entertaining. 689 00:31:14.893 --> 00:31:15.799 And at the end of the day, 690 00:31:16.518 --> 00:31:16.768 yeah, 691 00:31:16.769 --> 00:31:18.377 the method itself is efficient, 692 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:22.518 but it's also like the universe that they put together that is efficient, 693 00:31:22.580 --> 00:31:22.752 right? 694 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:24.424 So it's really working on... 695 00:31:25.204 --> 00:31:25.904 on both, 696 00:31:26.444 --> 00:31:26.784 let's say, 697 00:31:27.425 --> 00:31:28.405 both streams. 698 00:31:29.044 --> 00:31:29.286 But 699 00:31:29.806 --> 00:31:31.825 I guess that it's also to them, 700 00:31:33.044 --> 00:31:43.232 like to make a nice step back to understand that what they wanted at the end of the day was for people to come back to the app and not only like use it once, 701 00:31:43.310 --> 00:31:46.482 but come back to it and see where the saving points were. 702 00:31:47.122 --> 00:31:48.013 And yeah, 703 00:31:48.028 --> 00:31:49.122 I find it quite, 704 00:31:50.153 --> 00:31:50.263 yeah, 705 00:31:50.388 --> 00:31:51.450 indeed in Liberty Watts, 706 00:31:51.903 --> 00:31:52.825 I don't live in France, 707 00:31:52.826 --> 00:31:53.685 so I haven't used it. 708 00:31:53.747 --> 00:31:53.888 But. 709 00:31:54.232 --> 00:32:00.839 I've seen a little bit of the platform and it looks really cool compared to many other things I have seen elsewhere. 710 00:32:01.558 --> 00:32:01.878 I'm like, 711 00:32:02.421 --> 00:32:02.843 that's bad, 712 00:32:02.882 --> 00:32:03.163 guys. 713 00:32:04.601 --> 00:32:04.780 Yeah, 714 00:32:04.905 --> 00:32:05.023 yeah. 715 00:32:05.024 --> 00:32:05.140 And 716 00:32:06.546 --> 00:32:10.507 I like that example because it's demand response. 717 00:32:10.523 --> 00:32:10.710 I mean, 718 00:32:10.991 --> 00:32:13.554 even the name demand response, 719 00:32:13.585 --> 00:32:15.132 those two words together, 720 00:32:16.116 --> 00:32:16.913 I always thought, 721 00:32:17.554 --> 00:32:17.788 you know, 722 00:32:18.257 --> 00:32:19.194 it's a terrible name. 723 00:32:19.632 --> 00:32:19.913 It is. 724 00:32:20.210 --> 00:32:22.741 because yes, 725 00:32:22.976 --> 00:32:23.554 technically... 726 00:32:24.520 --> 00:32:26.142 It's the response of, 727 00:32:26.943 --> 00:32:27.183 you know, 728 00:32:27.302 --> 00:32:30.205 electric demand to the needs of the grid. 729 00:32:30.806 --> 00:32:31.388 But it's just, 730 00:32:31.588 --> 00:32:32.627 it's a terrible name. 731 00:32:32.666 --> 00:32:33.009 And, 732 00:32:33.267 --> 00:32:33.509 you know, 733 00:32:33.572 --> 00:32:36.611 it's not going to be natural or intuitive to anyone. 734 00:32:37.455 --> 00:32:40.056 And we can see a lot of retailers, 735 00:32:41.431 --> 00:32:42.134 especially since, 736 00:32:42.541 --> 00:32:43.181 so in Europe, 737 00:32:43.244 --> 00:32:46.259 specific to Europe since 2022, 738 00:32:46.306 --> 00:32:52.494 there definitely has been an inflection point on all things to do with flexibility and demand response in particular. 739 00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:56.224 And we do see a lot of companies struggling to figure out, 740 00:32:56.624 --> 00:32:56.903 you know, 741 00:32:57.282 --> 00:32:57.583 again, 742 00:32:57.645 --> 00:32:57.825 like, 743 00:32:57.845 --> 00:33:00.485 how do we explain demand response? 744 00:33:00.486 --> 00:33:04.329 But I fundamentally believe that's the wrong question. 745 00:33:04.595 --> 00:33:05.892 It's the wrong thing to focus on. 746 00:33:06.595 --> 00:33:06.790 Yeah, 747 00:33:06.791 --> 00:33:07.134 I know. 748 00:33:07.657 --> 00:33:10.978 I remember delivering a training in South Africa a few years ago, 749 00:33:11.712 --> 00:33:18.806 and I was explaining demand response by just putting on the screen a yoga figure where you really need to have your balance. 750 00:33:18.978 --> 00:33:19.243 Like, 751 00:33:19.352 --> 00:33:20.852 you have the electricity on the one hand, 752 00:33:20.884 --> 00:33:21.634 you have the house. 753 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:37.846 in the one hand and you need to make them match and that's like a position of yoga if you stand on one foot you need to have a balance at the center and all the students were like we had heard about it but we never knew what it was and it's like yeah but it's 754 00:33:37.885 --> 00:33:49.018 not explaining to five years old but but almost yeah sometimes yeah but even you know the the difficulty in the digital world is that 755 00:33:49.708 --> 00:33:54.652 Even this small interaction that you had with those individuals, 756 00:33:55.914 --> 00:34:03.219 finding the space to be able to do that in a digital product or in a digital customer experience is really hard. 757 00:34:03.883 --> 00:34:08.734 Because people are not going to sit through a long tutorial. 758 00:34:09.047 --> 00:34:10.547 And when I say long tutorial, 759 00:34:11.516 --> 00:34:11.906 again, 760 00:34:11.953 --> 00:34:12.906 in the digital world, 761 00:34:12.953 --> 00:34:15.859 a long tutorial can be like two or three screens. 762 00:34:16.094 --> 00:34:18.250 That could already start to feel like... 763 00:34:18.536 --> 00:34:19.277 Like it's a lot. 764 00:34:20.178 --> 00:34:24.182 So that's really why efficiency of, 765 00:34:24.963 --> 00:34:25.201 you know, 766 00:34:25.322 --> 00:34:36.447 really understanding what's salient to people and just going as quickly as possible to and efficiently as possible to what's salient for people is that that's the key. 767 00:34:37.208 --> 00:34:37.528 Because, 768 00:34:37.529 --> 00:34:38.089 you know, 769 00:34:38.268 --> 00:34:41.331 especially when we're talking about energy and internet response, 770 00:34:41.370 --> 00:34:45.346 people are not naturally curious about this kind of stuff. 771 00:34:46.026 --> 00:34:46.151 No, 772 00:34:46.307 --> 00:34:46.471 but 773 00:34:47.112 --> 00:34:48.370 I've seen recently also 774 00:34:48.893 --> 00:34:52.932 Engie in France launching a campaign or a new tariff called 775 00:34:54.245 --> 00:34:55.198 Happy Hours. 776 00:34:55.636 --> 00:34:56.214 So basically, 777 00:34:56.292 --> 00:35:02.557 you have two hours where you have very cheap electricity price because you don't pay for the electricity just for the tax and everything. 778 00:35:02.573 --> 00:35:04.995 But it's like framing it as happy hours. 779 00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:05.729 You don't pay. 780 00:35:06.364 --> 00:35:07.906 Electricity for a couple of hours, 781 00:35:08.165 --> 00:35:08.406 I mean, 782 00:35:08.747 --> 00:35:10.728 that's so straightforward. 783 00:35:10.869 --> 00:35:14.271 Like everybody kind of knows what a happy hour is. 784 00:35:15.833 --> 00:35:16.357 In French, 785 00:35:16.435 --> 00:35:16.818 of course, 786 00:35:16.833 --> 00:35:18.935 because you need to translate what it is. 787 00:35:18.974 --> 00:35:20.740 But that makes it very, 788 00:35:21.677 --> 00:35:22.021 really, 789 00:35:22.201 --> 00:35:28.927 really easy to understand because it's relatable to other concepts, 790 00:35:29.099 --> 00:35:30.583 other frameworks again. 791 00:35:31.630 --> 00:35:32.146 And yeah, 792 00:35:32.208 --> 00:35:35.255 I find it interesting that finally... 793 00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:49.557 The energy sector is starting to look at what is being done in other sectors to kind of attract and make sure that customers or people are really part of it and not only not an afterthought. 794 00:35:49.596 --> 00:35:52.541 And now we are not even talking about the different, 795 00:35:53.276 --> 00:35:53.682 let's say, 796 00:35:54.354 --> 00:35:58.026 categories of the population who cannot engage for a variety of reasons, 797 00:35:58.041 --> 00:36:00.479 who are not digitally confident either. 798 00:36:00.604 --> 00:36:03.151 So that's that would be another topic of conversation. 799 00:36:03.182 --> 00:36:04.307 But yeah, 800 00:36:04.308 --> 00:36:04.963 I think that's... 801 00:36:05.176 --> 00:36:22.920 really cool that people like you are able to you to bring this clarity when building this kind of tools yeah well i think one of the things that's that i'm it's fascinating to me now is you know as we accelerate into the the 802 00:36:22.998 --> 00:36:29.467 era of flexibility you know things like this so that you know this happy hour offer and everything around. 803 00:36:30.260 --> 00:36:32.142 different vehicle-to-grid offers, 804 00:36:32.203 --> 00:36:33.543 smart charging offers, 805 00:36:33.664 --> 00:36:34.285 all these things. 806 00:36:34.805 --> 00:36:41.730 The acceleration of flexibility is opening up a whole new array of potential offers. 807 00:36:41.754 --> 00:36:44.894 And I think that's super exciting because we, 808 00:36:45.293 --> 00:36:46.613 so at Budbeck, 809 00:36:46.660 --> 00:36:51.394 we have a practice area around digital solutions that we've talked a lot about. 810 00:36:51.395 --> 00:36:54.879 We also have a practice area in data science. 811 00:36:55.082 --> 00:36:57.832 So about two-thirds of the team have PhDs. 812 00:36:58.944 --> 00:36:59.705 Things like physics, 813 00:36:59.765 --> 00:37:00.405 mathematics, 814 00:37:00.645 --> 00:37:00.985 battery, 815 00:37:01.106 --> 00:37:01.567 chemistry, 816 00:37:01.786 --> 00:37:02.048 even. 817 00:37:02.926 --> 00:37:05.930 And so we do some pretty intense data science work. 818 00:37:06.911 --> 00:37:12.341 And what we're seeing is on the topic of optimization of flexibility, 819 00:37:13.036 --> 00:37:16.676 there's a really fascinating convergence of those two topics. 820 00:37:16.739 --> 00:37:20.645 Because on the data science side, 821 00:37:20.802 --> 00:37:21.192 obviously, 822 00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:24.536 there's a lot of work to do to optimize. 823 00:37:25.005 --> 00:37:26.645 if we're talking about residential, 824 00:37:27.192 --> 00:37:27.567 between... 825 00:37:28.704 --> 00:37:33.691 Either just aggregated demand response or for those customers, 826 00:37:33.710 --> 00:37:33.890 which, 827 00:37:34.148 --> 00:37:34.390 you know, 828 00:37:35.031 --> 00:37:35.933 it's not everybody, 829 00:37:36.011 --> 00:37:37.429 but those customers who have PV, 830 00:37:37.913 --> 00:37:38.156 you know, 831 00:37:38.351 --> 00:37:38.851 vehicles, 832 00:37:38.913 --> 00:37:39.413 storage, 833 00:37:39.913 --> 00:37:44.116 the optimization of that has a lot of technical complexity. 834 00:37:45.476 --> 00:37:47.710 We've worked at the grid scale as well. 835 00:37:47.742 --> 00:37:49.632 And so there's a ton of complexity there. 836 00:37:50.585 --> 00:37:52.132 But ultimately, 837 00:37:53.148 --> 00:37:57.913 there are customer experiences that have to be attached to that. 838 00:37:58.760 --> 00:37:59.621 And so the 839 00:38:00.661 --> 00:38:02.624 NG example you gave is a great example. 840 00:38:02.702 --> 00:38:03.367 So this is where, 841 00:38:03.765 --> 00:38:04.007 you know, 842 00:38:04.206 --> 00:38:05.245 they're doing that pretty well. 843 00:38:06.027 --> 00:38:09.007 But I think a lot of players are still very focused on, 844 00:38:09.874 --> 00:38:10.109 you know, 845 00:38:10.195 --> 00:38:14.038 look at all these ways that we can control your electric vehicle. 846 00:38:14.781 --> 00:38:15.202 And it's like, 847 00:38:15.234 --> 00:38:15.421 well, 848 00:38:16.078 --> 00:38:19.374 that's really cool for us that are inside the energy sector. 849 00:38:19.546 --> 00:38:21.984 But that's not necessarily what's going to be salient to people. 850 00:38:22.078 --> 00:38:22.343 You know, 851 00:38:22.718 --> 00:38:23.218 people is, 852 00:38:24.046 --> 00:38:24.281 you know, 853 00:38:24.390 --> 00:38:27.109 are you going to charge my car for free? 854 00:38:28.184 --> 00:38:28.424 You know, 855 00:38:28.805 --> 00:38:39.152 that's something I'm much more interested in and I'm much more willing to hear about your value proposition if you're telling me that if you give me access to your car, 856 00:38:39.214 --> 00:38:40.378 you can have free charging, 857 00:38:40.714 --> 00:38:40.956 you know, 858 00:38:41.097 --> 00:38:43.480 X number of days per year or whatever the case might be. 859 00:38:44.082 --> 00:38:47.425 Not even mentioning how daunting the word control can be. 860 00:38:48.238 --> 00:38:48.988 I mean, 861 00:38:48.989 --> 00:38:56.597 I worked on different cases where basically there was a proposal to install some devices to monitor. 862 00:38:56.785 --> 00:38:57.191 to control 863 00:38:57.388 --> 00:38:58.909 So that was presented as control, 864 00:39:00.108 --> 00:39:01.330 the consumption of the home. 865 00:39:01.428 --> 00:39:01.870 Of course, 866 00:39:01.889 --> 00:39:02.870 no one wanted that, 867 00:39:03.651 --> 00:39:06.088 but they were okay to get some monitoring, 868 00:39:06.151 --> 00:39:08.330 but control was absolutely off-limits. 869 00:39:08.791 --> 00:39:13.252 So it's also this kind of mindset that needs changing. 870 00:39:13.315 --> 00:39:14.190 And yeah, 871 00:39:14.346 --> 00:39:16.346 I think it's really interesting that, 872 00:39:16.596 --> 00:39:16.846 you know, 873 00:39:17.065 --> 00:39:22.034 you're able to blend all this data analysis, 874 00:39:22.221 --> 00:39:24.330 and it's not only about collecting more data, 875 00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:25.721 but collecting better data. 876 00:39:26.376 --> 00:39:28.940 with really implementation. 877 00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:33.303 And so what are the next steps with the Baalbek Insights now? 878 00:39:34.467 --> 00:39:34.725 Well, 879 00:39:34.803 --> 00:39:34.928 so, 880 00:39:35.022 --> 00:39:35.264 you know, 881 00:39:35.303 --> 00:39:36.647 we basically... 882 00:39:37.836 --> 00:39:39.558 We have been we've been lucky. 883 00:39:39.998 --> 00:39:45.566 I wish we could say that we had the vision to go after this. 884 00:39:46.105 --> 00:39:46.824 But but actually, 885 00:39:46.902 --> 00:39:51.512 our clients brought us on to topics of flexibility about five, 886 00:39:51.566 --> 00:39:52.191 six years ago, 887 00:39:52.652 --> 00:39:52.894 you know, 888 00:39:52.910 --> 00:39:57.449 because they were more more forward thinking than us. 889 00:39:58.121 --> 00:39:59.590 But the result now is that, 890 00:39:59.621 --> 00:39:59.855 you know, 891 00:39:59.856 --> 00:40:00.543 we have five, 892 00:40:00.574 --> 00:40:02.402 six years of experience. 893 00:40:03.752 --> 00:40:06.234 doing a lot of things that companies are trying to figure out now. 894 00:40:06.356 --> 00:40:06.475 So, 895 00:40:06.695 --> 00:40:06.955 you know, 896 00:40:07.055 --> 00:40:12.719 optimizing flexibility in commercial buildings that have more vehicle charging, 897 00:40:12.781 --> 00:40:13.242 more PV, 898 00:40:13.461 --> 00:40:14.320 more storage, 899 00:40:14.680 --> 00:40:15.883 doing that for cities, 900 00:40:16.883 --> 00:40:20.141 and then obviously doing it on the residential front as well. 901 00:40:21.250 --> 00:40:27.172 Whether it's the customer experience or the algorithms behind all that optimization, 902 00:40:27.813 --> 00:40:28.063 you know, 903 00:40:28.064 --> 00:40:28.875 we already have five, 904 00:40:28.891 --> 00:40:32.266 six years of things that have been in market. 905 00:40:32.748 --> 00:40:33.508 that are working, 906 00:40:34.549 --> 00:40:38.389 that we've built for clients because fundamentally we're a consulting company, 907 00:40:38.510 --> 00:40:40.608 so we don't own the IP. 908 00:40:41.209 --> 00:40:42.350 Our clients own the IP. 909 00:40:43.490 --> 00:40:49.147 So that's really the current acceleration of flexibility is what we're super excited about because, 910 00:40:49.631 --> 00:40:49.912 again, 911 00:40:50.147 --> 00:40:53.616 there's that convergence of the technical complexity, 912 00:40:53.959 --> 00:40:58.569 but having to take that away from customers as much as possible. 913 00:40:58.912 --> 00:41:01.350 We can't put all this technical complexity on them. 914 00:41:01.896 --> 00:41:03.658 We're not going to be able to explain all this to them. 915 00:41:03.718 --> 00:41:06.961 So we have to figure out better customer experiences, 916 00:41:07.020 --> 00:41:13.188 better products to be able to get the most out of all the opportunities that are present with flexibility. 917 00:41:14.289 --> 00:41:14.625 So cool. 918 00:41:15.070 --> 00:41:15.867 Thank you so much, 919 00:41:16.070 --> 00:41:16.313 John. 920 00:41:16.828 --> 00:41:20.039 It's been such a pleasure to have you here in the pod. 921 00:41:20.742 --> 00:41:22.242 I feel that I've learned a lot. 922 00:41:22.555 --> 00:41:23.320 And yeah, 923 00:41:23.617 --> 00:41:30.180 I think it's a great way to start 2026 to see that it's possible to break frontiers. 924 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:32.262 between the various disciplines. 925 00:41:32.943 --> 00:41:33.624 And yeah, 926 00:41:33.945 --> 00:41:36.066 there is science, 927 00:41:36.265 --> 00:41:44.214 there is very hard science with the part that you're extremely excited about. 928 00:41:44.714 --> 00:41:45.277 And yeah, 929 00:41:45.278 --> 00:41:45.714 on the show, 930 00:41:45.933 --> 00:41:52.581 you've also heard some people talk about social sciences and of course, 931 00:41:52.644 --> 00:41:53.425 even philosophy. 932 00:41:53.956 --> 00:41:55.581 So it all blends really, 933 00:41:56.222 --> 00:41:57.066 really well together. 934 00:41:57.191 --> 00:41:57.300 So... 935 00:41:57.800 --> 00:41:58.080 Thank you, 936 00:41:58.120 --> 00:41:58.280 Sean, 937 00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:02.040 for being the first guest of this new year of Energetic. 938 00:42:02.240 --> 00:42:05.923 And happy new year and all the best with the 939 00:42:06.603 --> 00:42:07.384 Baalbek Insights. 940 00:42:07.423 --> 00:42:08.618 So it's a new project. 941 00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:10.259 It's a continuity. 942 00:42:10.384 --> 00:42:11.126 But yeah, 943 00:42:11.243 --> 00:42:13.142 I'm looking forward to see how it unfolds. 944 00:42:15.282 --> 00:42:18.220 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. 945 00:42:18.517 --> 00:42:26.345 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward thinking mouths out there. 946 00:42:27.016 --> 00:42:27.797 I'm Maureen Connelly, 947 00:42:28.017 --> 00:42:29.678 your host from Policy Consultancy, 948 00:42:29.739 --> 00:42:30.819 Next Energy Consumer, 949 00:42:31.202 --> 00:42:34.643 and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, 950 00:42:35.045 --> 00:42:37.163 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. 951 00:42:37.850 --> 00:42:39.108 Since 2021, 952 00:42:39.288 --> 00:42:40.772 we've shared countless stories, 953 00:42:40.928 --> 00:42:41.413 insights, 954 00:42:41.428 --> 00:42:44.577 and ideas over more than 40 episodes, 955 00:42:44.952 --> 00:42:48.139 and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. 956 00:42:48.842 --> 00:42:53.124 If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, 957 00:42:53.498 --> 00:42:55.124 why not support us on Patreon? 958 00:42:55.716 --> 00:42:58.1000 Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. 959 00:42:59.500 --> 00:43:01.303 Check out the show notes for the link. 960 00:43:02.002 --> 00:43:02.424 And hey, 961 00:43:02.885 --> 00:43:08.545 if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, 962 00:43:09.053 --> 00:43:11.935 we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. 963 00:43:12.388 --> 00:43:18.451 It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. 964 00:43:19.420 --> 00:43:20.842 Shout out to the fantastic 965 00:43:21.217 --> 00:43:23.920 Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory. 966 00:43:24.312 --> 00:43:26.693 for his incredible sound design work, 967 00:43:27.055 --> 00:43:29.498 making every episode a joy to listen to. 968 00:43:30.397 --> 00:43:31.420 If you haven't already, 969 00:43:31.678 --> 00:43:35.143 make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. 970 00:43:35.604 --> 00:43:39.104 And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, 971 00:43:39.486 --> 00:43:41.096 we'd love for you to spread the word. 972 00:43:41.533 --> 00:43:45.768 It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. 973 00:43:46.252 --> 00:43:47.549 Sharing is caring. 974 00:43:48.111 --> 00:43:53.268 Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things Energetic. 975 00:43:53.548 --> 00:43:55.448 Thanks once again for lending your ears. 976 00:43:55.589 --> 00:44:06.132 Until next time.