WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.088 --> 00:00:04.012 We are a podcast for product marketers and B2B SaaS who feel misunderstood of what they do. 2 00:00:04.133 --> 00:00:10.301 From someone who truly gets what you do and basically help you feel less like a misfit being unenormable in your role. 3 00:00:16.669 --> 00:00:17.137 Hey folks, 4 00:00:17.262 --> 00:00:17.684 Gab here. 5 00:00:17.950 --> 00:00:21.653 So season four is dropping in two weeks and because it's a long time, 6 00:00:21.731 --> 00:00:29.278 we decided to do a little recap of a series of episodes on how you can build influence as a product marketing manager in 2025. 7 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:31.863 So hoping that this will shorten the wait. 8 00:00:32.123 --> 00:00:32.443 Thank you. 9 00:00:32.722 --> 00:00:33.465 Cheers and enjoy. 10 00:00:34.906 --> 00:00:38.949 How do you define product marketing within an organization? 11 00:00:39.051 --> 00:00:40.371 Because many instances, 12 00:00:40.551 --> 00:00:41.613 you're going to have sales saying, 13 00:00:41.894 --> 00:00:42.871 I need this one pager. 14 00:00:42.957 --> 00:00:44.777 You may have executive leadership, 15 00:00:44.832 --> 00:00:45.332 CEO say, 16 00:00:45.769 --> 00:00:45.941 hey, 17 00:00:46.035 --> 00:00:48.394 we need some copywriting on this website. 18 00:00:48.801 --> 00:00:50.941 So for anyone that's in this similar situation, 19 00:00:51.676 --> 00:00:53.660 what is your definition of product marketing? 20 00:00:53.863 --> 00:00:57.051 And then how do you influence that definition across key stakeholders? 21 00:00:57.722 --> 00:00:57.847 Yeah. 22 00:00:58.064 --> 00:01:01.527 I think that product marketing needs a definition at each organization. 23 00:01:01.607 --> 00:01:04.789 Like there isn't one blanket one. 24 00:01:04.812 --> 00:01:05.390 Like for me, 25 00:01:05.511 --> 00:01:13.297 product marketing is responsible for identifying who are your best customers and the markets and spaces you should be playing in, 26 00:01:13.797 --> 00:01:15.984 identifying how to price, 27 00:01:16.078 --> 00:01:16.484 package, 28 00:01:16.500 --> 00:01:17.656 and position value, 29 00:01:17.718 --> 00:01:20.125 and then bring recurring value to customers. 30 00:01:20.359 --> 00:01:21.593 That's product marketing for me. 31 00:01:22.406 --> 00:01:24.906 the skills and like tactics under that, 32 00:01:25.047 --> 00:01:26.015 we could argue that. 33 00:01:26.744 --> 00:01:28.286 Copywriting could fit under that or not. 34 00:01:28.366 --> 00:01:28.965 You know what I mean? 35 00:01:29.506 --> 00:01:30.407 There's different worlds, 36 00:01:30.627 --> 00:01:30.848 right? 37 00:01:30.926 --> 00:01:35.934 You need to assess for yourself what kind of product marketer you want to be and within what type of a company. 38 00:01:36.293 --> 00:01:43.200 Like I would not be a solo PMN because I would have to spend too much of my time on tasks that are not my zone of genius. 39 00:01:43.543 --> 00:01:45.887 But there's other people who excel in that area, 40 00:01:46.043 --> 00:01:46.356 right? 41 00:01:46.746 --> 00:01:47.825 And so from my experience, 42 00:01:47.887 --> 00:01:55.950 most of my teams have been at like later stage startups to early scale ups where we've had the luxury of having product marketing. 43 00:01:56.304 --> 00:01:57.984 and some other marketers. 44 00:01:58.484 --> 00:01:59.025 That said, 45 00:01:59.064 --> 00:02:00.025 like even at Kajabi, 46 00:02:00.205 --> 00:02:01.666 fairly large scale up, 47 00:02:02.005 --> 00:02:04.103 we had six product marketers. 48 00:02:04.267 --> 00:02:06.626 There's definitely times where we wrote our own pendos. 49 00:02:06.689 --> 00:02:06.869 Like 50 00:02:07.603 --> 00:02:08.603 I'm not saying we're saying, 51 00:02:08.604 --> 00:02:08.728 oh, 52 00:02:08.767 --> 00:02:09.666 we can't help out. 53 00:02:09.705 --> 00:02:10.923 Like we're team players. 54 00:02:10.986 --> 00:02:11.884 And there's times where, 55 00:02:12.142 --> 00:02:12.392 you know, 56 00:02:12.470 --> 00:02:15.814 especially if something comes up today and we want it to go out tomorrow, 57 00:02:16.330 --> 00:02:16.455 yeah, 58 00:02:16.486 --> 00:02:18.533 we're going to chip in and we're going to like write the email. 59 00:02:18.626 --> 00:02:19.486 We'll write the pendo. 60 00:02:19.892 --> 00:02:22.923 But that's different than saying I have a tier one product launch coming up. 61 00:02:22.924 --> 00:02:23.111 You know. 62 00:02:23.312 --> 00:02:26.855 two months from now and I'm going to write all of my own flatter on the website copy. 63 00:02:27.435 --> 00:02:28.919 And so it's not to say, 64 00:02:29.619 --> 00:02:29.740 oh, 65 00:02:29.741 --> 00:02:31.599 we're too good for that or that's not what we do. 66 00:02:31.841 --> 00:02:32.138 It's like, 67 00:02:32.162 --> 00:02:34.740 how do we set boundaries so we can each do our best work? 68 00:02:35.044 --> 00:02:35.287 But then, 69 00:02:35.326 --> 00:02:35.646 of course, 70 00:02:35.647 --> 00:02:36.185 at the end of the day, 71 00:02:36.224 --> 00:02:38.748 we're a team and we all need to chip in, 72 00:02:38.927 --> 00:02:39.248 you know? 73 00:02:39.794 --> 00:02:40.951 So that's how I think about it. 74 00:02:41.310 --> 00:02:43.185 I think if you want to set yourself up for success, 75 00:02:43.232 --> 00:02:45.998 whether you're joining a new role or you're in a role right now, 76 00:02:46.419 --> 00:02:48.951 it's just having those conversations and setting those boundaries. 77 00:02:49.060 --> 00:02:50.638 Like in interviews, 78 00:02:50.685 --> 00:02:51.919 I'm super clear on. 79 00:02:52.308 --> 00:02:54.251 What do you expect to be doing with your day? 80 00:02:54.290 --> 00:02:56.411 Like I'll ask when I'm hiring PMMs on my team, 81 00:02:56.712 --> 00:02:58.454 how much of your day do you want to spend doing this? 82 00:02:58.935 --> 00:03:00.075 What brings you joy? 83 00:03:00.333 --> 00:03:04.622 And so you should already be aligned on this with your stakeholders. 84 00:03:05.177 --> 00:03:06.185 And we talked a lot about marketing, 85 00:03:06.200 --> 00:03:06.724 but honestly, 86 00:03:06.786 --> 00:03:10.208 sometimes I find that actually more of the overlap can even happen with product. 87 00:03:10.411 --> 00:03:12.833 But this is the exact conversation we also need to be having. 88 00:03:12.974 --> 00:03:16.099 What do you feel on that same note in terms of reporting then? 89 00:03:16.130 --> 00:03:19.130 If you were to put them somewhere where you had to have a boss, 90 00:03:19.677 --> 00:03:20.989 who's that boss in your opinion? 91 00:03:22.644 --> 00:03:22.764 Yeah. 92 00:03:23.145 --> 00:03:24.426 So I have opinions, 93 00:03:24.486 --> 00:03:29.493 but I also will caveat it by saying that like the context of the company does matter, 94 00:03:29.813 --> 00:03:30.071 right? 95 00:03:30.571 --> 00:03:31.532 But in an ideal world, 96 00:03:31.533 --> 00:03:35.657 if I was designing a business and I could design it around a structure I think would be ideal, 97 00:03:36.016 --> 00:03:38.102 I would have it on its own. 98 00:03:38.555 --> 00:03:40.149 So it wouldn't report into product. 99 00:03:40.196 --> 00:03:41.680 It wouldn't report into marketing. 100 00:03:41.837 --> 00:03:47.837 It would report into either like a chief commercialization officer or a chief strategy officer. 101 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:49.521 And so when I was at Unbounce, 102 00:03:49.522 --> 00:03:51.362 this was actually what I had the opportunity to do, 103 00:03:51.523 --> 00:03:52.442 which was amazing. 104 00:03:52.544 --> 00:03:53.646 So when I joined Unbounce, 105 00:03:53.685 --> 00:03:55.267 I joined as the head of product marketing. 106 00:03:55.927 --> 00:03:56.146 And 107 00:03:56.567 --> 00:03:59.630 I was blessed that the system was already set up a little bit for me. 108 00:03:59.794 --> 00:04:00.833 There is a head of product, 109 00:04:00.896 --> 00:04:01.716 a head of marketing, 110 00:04:01.771 --> 00:04:03.177 and then like a CRO. 111 00:04:03.896 --> 00:04:06.630 And so I actually got to report to the chief revenue officer. 112 00:04:07.005 --> 00:04:10.114 And product marketing was carved off separate than marketing. 113 00:04:10.677 --> 00:04:11.896 The head of marketing and myself, 114 00:04:11.927 --> 00:04:13.505 we both reported into the CRO, 115 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:15.302 but at least we were our own functions. 116 00:04:15.948 --> 00:04:21.013 But what happened was that we ended up having some friction between marketing or revenue and product. 117 00:04:21.372 --> 00:04:26.860 And we all agreed that one of the best ways to diffuse this tension would be for there to be a third party, 118 00:04:27.196 --> 00:04:28.899 a neutral and unbiased third party. 119 00:04:29.345 --> 00:04:30.805 And so when our CRO, 120 00:04:30.985 --> 00:04:33.102 she actually got promoted to the CEO spot, 121 00:04:33.149 --> 00:04:33.962 which was amazing. 122 00:04:34.321 --> 00:04:37.649 And so then there was an opportunity for me to become the CSO. 123 00:04:37.790 --> 00:04:40.024 So I took on the chief strategy officer title. 124 00:04:40.571 --> 00:04:42.540 I removed myself from the revenue unit. 125 00:04:42.634 --> 00:04:44.118 So then we had a head of product. 126 00:04:44.620 --> 00:04:45.401 head of strategy, 127 00:04:45.521 --> 00:04:49.563 which was then doing lifecycle partnerships and product marketing, 128 00:04:49.927 --> 00:04:51.145 and then a head of marketing. 129 00:04:51.368 --> 00:04:54.931 And we would have three strategic peers all being able to work together. 130 00:04:56.329 --> 00:04:56.454 Oh, 131 00:04:56.493 --> 00:04:56.634 man, 132 00:04:56.673 --> 00:04:58.353 that sounds like a dream layout there. 133 00:05:00.259 --> 00:05:00.790 How do you 134 00:05:01.483 --> 00:05:22.166 convince everyone in your organization that we should be building products that people want to buy that when we launch this we've got people already lined up to pay us for it versus building a product and then taking all of our resources to figure out how are we going to get people to buy this thing have 135 00:05:22.167 --> 00:05:29.682 you situation where you've had to have that conversation and say look this is how we need to run product launches and develop products 136 00:05:30.259 --> 00:05:34.419 Do you have any advice for our users or any examples that we could share? 137 00:05:35.681 --> 00:05:37.880 I think it's something that both of you guys have said before, 138 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:41.720 along with when we had Jason on last week. 139 00:05:41.721 --> 00:05:51.103 He said that conversation should begin with your product counterpart when you are thinking about the product roadmap, 140 00:05:52.087 --> 00:05:53.728 when you're looking at the annual plan. 141 00:05:54.150 --> 00:05:58.384 But let's say that you are not there for that conversation. 142 00:05:58.447 --> 00:05:59.087 you join at 143 00:05:59.567 --> 00:06:00.828 a later part of the year, 144 00:06:00.988 --> 00:06:01.669 you are new. 145 00:06:02.831 --> 00:06:03.612 I think it's like, 146 00:06:03.632 --> 00:06:04.351 that's the first, 147 00:06:04.452 --> 00:06:06.816 like one of the first meetings to have on a books. 148 00:06:06.817 --> 00:06:07.296 And it's like, 149 00:06:07.335 --> 00:06:07.476 Hey, 150 00:06:07.538 --> 00:06:07.734 like, 151 00:06:08.359 --> 00:06:09.734 what does the roadmap look like? 152 00:06:10.280 --> 00:06:11.655 What are we prioritizing? 153 00:06:12.640 --> 00:06:13.757 What's changed? 154 00:06:14.382 --> 00:06:15.023 What's like, 155 00:06:15.062 --> 00:06:16.757 what changes have we seen so far, 156 00:06:16.929 --> 00:06:19.163 either from just like customer interactions, 157 00:06:19.585 --> 00:06:21.476 from feedback we're getting from customers, 158 00:06:21.491 --> 00:06:29.210 from cases that are coming from the customer success team that may influence how we have the list. 159 00:06:29.307 --> 00:06:30.227 prioritized today. 160 00:06:30.687 --> 00:06:31.947 But I think at the end of the day, 161 00:06:33.049 --> 00:06:35.728 before we talk to the entire organization, 162 00:06:36.209 --> 00:06:39.248 is to have that sit down with the product counterpart and figure out like, 163 00:06:39.428 --> 00:06:43.170 what is their priority and what they want to watch. 164 00:06:43.171 --> 00:06:43.310 Yep. 165 00:06:43.670 --> 00:06:44.967 I would agree with that. 166 00:06:45.014 --> 00:06:48.693 And I think that for a major part, 167 00:06:48.928 --> 00:06:49.834 when that's happening, 168 00:06:50.693 --> 00:06:51.771 there's already a roadmap. 169 00:06:51.818 --> 00:06:53.568 They already know what they want to do. 170 00:06:53.631 --> 00:06:54.209 And it's like, 171 00:06:54.756 --> 00:06:55.334 hey guys, 172 00:06:55.740 --> 00:06:58.693 here's this mix match weird stuff. 173 00:06:58.895 --> 00:06:59.636 kind of word, 174 00:07:00.737 --> 00:07:01.677 do something with it. 175 00:07:01.699 --> 00:07:01.998 Come on, 176 00:07:02.019 --> 00:07:02.398 PMMs, 177 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:03.398 go to market with it. 178 00:07:04.300 --> 00:07:05.781 When positioning, 179 00:07:05.902 --> 00:07:06.382 as we know, 180 00:07:06.543 --> 00:07:09.105 should be done at the ideation phase. 181 00:07:09.668 --> 00:07:12.628 So then everything else is more of a, 182 00:07:12.629 --> 00:07:15.933 I don't want to use too much slang, 183 00:07:15.964 --> 00:07:16.136 but 184 00:07:16.871 --> 00:07:21.074 I would say it's more of a top-down approach and bottom-up. 185 00:07:22.636 --> 00:07:26.199 And we're just able to go to market more effectively then. 186 00:07:26.575 --> 00:07:28.937 Here's our kind of weird framing product, 187 00:07:29.818 --> 00:07:31.261 and you need to do something with it, 188 00:07:31.300 --> 00:07:32.863 and you need to position it correctly, 189 00:07:32.902 --> 00:07:33.843 and you need to do that. 190 00:07:34.765 --> 00:07:36.062 If you're able to do the research, 191 00:07:36.202 --> 00:07:37.406 to look at the competition, 192 00:07:38.148 --> 00:07:40.531 and then to identify gaps in the roadmap, 193 00:07:41.710 --> 00:07:42.812 I think it's a better way. 194 00:07:42.906 --> 00:07:43.468 And then you can say, 195 00:07:43.515 --> 00:07:43.671 okay, 196 00:07:43.734 --> 00:07:45.296 so can we take a step back? 197 00:07:45.952 --> 00:07:55.202 Can we remove the releases and ideas of the next quarters and just focus on tweaking that product? 198 00:07:55.995 --> 00:08:11.353 to fit the positioning or in the strategy around the market we want to bring and then we'll be able to focus on the direction we want to take because like the same is happening in growth as well you're trying to like make 199 00:08:11.393 --> 00:08:22.518 things work but it's not seamless because there's not necessarily a need for that product people are not necessarily aware of it either probably more or they just don't know about your solution. 200 00:08:22.596 --> 00:08:24.127 So yeah, 201 00:08:24.971 --> 00:08:25.377 pretty much it. 202 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:27.719 I love this. 203 00:08:28.819 --> 00:08:32.001 We got some wise words coming out of the we're not marketers today. 204 00:08:34.282 --> 00:08:35.919 Just the role of product marketing, 205 00:08:35.920 --> 00:08:38.599 I would actually argue is the most important role in marketing. 206 00:08:39.724 --> 00:08:40.122 How's that? 207 00:08:40.825 --> 00:08:41.481 Because 208 00:08:43.138 --> 00:08:45.856 I think that people get too in the weeds in companies. 209 00:08:45.888 --> 00:08:52.044 We get bent around the axle and we get too obsessed over little tiny optimizations or tweaks, 210 00:08:52.138 --> 00:08:53.044 or maybe we need to 211 00:08:53.855 --> 00:08:57.039 Maybe we have the wrong sequence going out to these people. 212 00:08:57.078 --> 00:08:58.680 Maybe the ad targeting is wrong. 213 00:08:58.762 --> 00:09:01.383 Maybe we need to do another X. 214 00:09:01.422 --> 00:09:03.043 It always comes back to the tactics. 215 00:09:03.067 --> 00:09:03.965 And if you look at LinkedIn, 216 00:09:03.988 --> 00:09:05.567 it is so much tactic driven. 217 00:09:06.145 --> 00:09:08.012 If there was one 80% 218 00:09:09.090 --> 00:09:11.949 thing that makes the difference in marketing, 219 00:09:12.090 --> 00:09:15.059 it is what product marketing should own, 220 00:09:15.137 --> 00:09:16.778 which is positioning and messaging. 221 00:09:17.153 --> 00:09:20.481 And I think positioning is the most important part of great marketing. 222 00:09:20.735 --> 00:09:22.277 And typically that needs to be, 223 00:09:22.517 --> 00:09:24.398 that is typically owned by product marketing. 224 00:09:24.459 --> 00:09:26.560 So as a way of working backwards from your question, 225 00:09:27.099 --> 00:09:31.568 a hundred percent product marketing is probably the most important role in marketing. 226 00:09:31.584 --> 00:09:33.131 That's not to take anything away from the others. 227 00:09:33.146 --> 00:09:37.787 I think you need people who are going to promote and distribute that message and convert that message. 228 00:09:37.834 --> 00:09:40.974 But without the message is the thing that is the biggest thing. 229 00:09:40.975 --> 00:09:41.881 And if I could bet all, 230 00:09:42.037 --> 00:09:42.834 I wrote about this recently, 231 00:09:42.881 --> 00:09:48.849 like the number one thing that I would bet on is positioning and a unique point of view and a differentiator. 232 00:09:49.423 --> 00:09:50.666 And that all comes from product. 233 00:09:50.805 --> 00:09:51.327 One challenge, 234 00:09:51.726 --> 00:09:53.410 especially for founding product marketers, 235 00:09:53.511 --> 00:09:58.097 is building that influence with their leadership to have that ownership and that trust. 236 00:09:58.496 --> 00:10:03.090 What chatter do you see within your Exit 5 community or from your past experience? 237 00:10:03.573 --> 00:10:08.198 on how like a solo product marketer or can build that trust and leadership. 238 00:10:08.199 --> 00:10:09.717 So that leader at the end could be like, 239 00:10:10.358 --> 00:10:10.760 take that, 240 00:10:10.979 --> 00:10:11.803 what you just said here, 241 00:10:11.858 --> 00:10:12.780 take this positioning, 242 00:10:13.186 --> 00:10:15.787 run with it and enable it across our organization. 243 00:10:15.928 --> 00:10:16.428 I think that, 244 00:10:16.787 --> 00:10:20.350 so when you're that solo or early marketer at a company, 245 00:10:20.553 --> 00:10:22.037 and then the example of Drift, 246 00:10:22.506 --> 00:10:30.553 the way that I got permission to be in that conversation with positioning was for the first six months of that company, 247 00:10:30.694 --> 00:10:30.866 like 248 00:10:30.937 --> 00:10:32.259 I just got so much shit done. 249 00:10:32.358 --> 00:10:33.499 I didn't care about my title. 250 00:10:33.839 --> 00:10:34.501 I didn't care about who, 251 00:10:34.540 --> 00:10:35.300 I didn't have a team. 252 00:10:35.343 --> 00:10:36.323 I didn't have a good title. 253 00:10:37.222 --> 00:10:41.190 I reported the CEO only because we didn't have a VP of marketing and he was just, 254 00:10:41.409 --> 00:10:42.128 I was the only person, 255 00:10:42.129 --> 00:10:43.526 we just needed somebody to wrangle that. 256 00:10:44.026 --> 00:10:45.050 And I just got in and 257 00:10:45.433 --> 00:10:46.472 I just did everything. 258 00:10:46.495 --> 00:10:53.980 I got our blog up and running and we got our first couple articles out and our website traffic went from zero to 1500 visitors in the first two weeks. 259 00:10:54.026 --> 00:10:56.042 And I got to present that to the company and they're like, 260 00:10:56.745 --> 00:10:57.042 all right, 261 00:10:57.058 --> 00:10:57.745 this is cool. 262 00:10:57.870 --> 00:10:58.886 We got some attention now. 263 00:10:59.161 --> 00:11:01.043 And then we got our first couple email subscribers, 264 00:11:01.044 --> 00:11:02.504 like 100 email subscribers. 265 00:11:02.524 --> 00:11:04.645 Then like I'm on the weekend and I'm thinking about, 266 00:11:04.664 --> 00:11:06.110 I'm reading articles about SEO. 267 00:11:06.129 --> 00:11:09.094 It was the first job opportunity that I had where I got to do all the doing. 268 00:11:09.110 --> 00:11:10.649 And so I could like make changes. 269 00:11:10.672 --> 00:11:12.274 And so they wanted, 270 00:11:12.414 --> 00:11:18.000 they want somebody who takes ownership and autonomy and goes and just gets a bunch of things done. 271 00:11:18.001 --> 00:11:22.219 And so before I became involved in the positioning, 272 00:11:22.266 --> 00:11:25.891 like I put a ton of points on the board early on to then 273 00:11:26.105 --> 00:11:33.353 earned the right for the seat for I got the right the CEO then wanted me to bring wanted to bring me into those conversations. 274 00:11:33.354 --> 00:11:34.130 I'll give you an example. 275 00:11:34.489 --> 00:11:35.997 There's a guy on our team at exit five right now. 276 00:11:35.998 --> 00:11:36.693 His name is Matt. 277 00:11:37.216 --> 00:11:39.114 And Matt's been with us for a month and a half. 278 00:11:39.982 --> 00:11:40.419 And 279 00:11:41.036 --> 00:11:42.239 Matt has just come in. 280 00:11:42.786 --> 00:11:42.896 No, 281 00:11:43.568 --> 00:11:44.927 just what can I like boom, 282 00:11:44.989 --> 00:11:45.489 just gone. 283 00:11:45.490 --> 00:11:47.568 He's just done so much stuff in a month and a half. 284 00:11:48.161 --> 00:11:52.911 I find myself now like bringing him into more things because like he gets shit done. 285 00:11:53.333 --> 00:11:54.552 And I want him to be involved. 286 00:11:54.553 --> 00:11:55.521 So there's an element of 287 00:11:55.609 --> 00:11:56.969 If you're the solo product marketer, 288 00:11:57.009 --> 00:11:59.710 I do think this is a space where product marketers can get stuck. 289 00:12:00.831 --> 00:12:02.870 Product marketers often default to like, 290 00:12:03.730 --> 00:12:04.909 I got to do my research. 291 00:12:05.730 --> 00:12:07.089 I got to talk to customers. 292 00:12:07.831 --> 00:12:09.175 This is going to take some time. 293 00:12:09.675 --> 00:12:10.691 I need a framework. 294 00:12:10.855 --> 00:12:11.573 I need a brief. 295 00:12:11.808 --> 00:12:12.886 And it's like now been, 296 00:12:12.948 --> 00:12:15.714 you've been at the company for six weeks and all we have is a Google doc. 297 00:12:17.511 --> 00:12:18.308 You can get there, 298 00:12:18.370 --> 00:12:18.870 but I'm just, 299 00:12:19.167 --> 00:12:19.995 especially at a startup, 300 00:12:20.011 --> 00:12:22.839 like you need to have a bias for action and let's get a bunch of stuff done. 301 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:24.995 And so if you're the product marketer and you come in this company, 302 00:12:25.541 --> 00:12:27.982 And you want to get the sales deck done and perfect, 303 00:12:28.002 --> 00:12:29.843 but you notice that they don't even have a sales deck. 304 00:12:30.324 --> 00:12:35.464 How about your first week project is to make a V1 of the deck that's just better than what you have now. 305 00:12:35.504 --> 00:12:39.168 And it's five slides and you worked on it directly with the VP of marketing, 306 00:12:39.707 --> 00:12:40.347 VP of sales, 307 00:12:40.847 --> 00:12:41.769 straight out of her mouth, 308 00:12:41.800 --> 00:12:42.097 whatever. 309 00:12:42.222 --> 00:12:42.629 Okay, 310 00:12:42.660 --> 00:12:42.800 boom, 311 00:12:42.832 --> 00:12:43.082 that's V1. 312 00:12:43.129 --> 00:12:43.566 All right, 313 00:12:43.582 --> 00:12:43.769 cool. 314 00:12:44.441 --> 00:12:45.347 I think I like this guy, 315 00:12:45.410 --> 00:12:45.629 Gab. 316 00:12:46.285 --> 00:12:47.550 You need to put points on the board. 317 00:12:47.972 --> 00:12:50.910 You need people to want to bring you into those conversations, 318 00:12:51.269 --> 00:12:52.691 especially in a role like product mark. 319 00:12:52.849 --> 00:12:55.371 product marketing where you don't necessarily have all the keys. 320 00:12:55.953 --> 00:12:57.555 You have to be, 321 00:12:57.556 --> 00:12:59.355 you have to be brought in on all the things. 322 00:12:59.394 --> 00:13:00.961 Like you don't necessarily own the website. 323 00:13:00.962 --> 00:13:02.258 You don't necessarily own sales. 324 00:13:02.883 --> 00:13:04.062 You don't necessarily own demand gen, 325 00:13:04.078 --> 00:13:04.539 but you want, 326 00:13:04.578 --> 00:13:05.398 need to be involved. 327 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:09.758 The way that you do that is by putting points on the board and being like being a great resource for people. 328 00:13:10.461 --> 00:13:11.039 This is just me, 329 00:13:11.133 --> 00:13:11.430 by the way, 330 00:13:11.445 --> 00:13:12.555 everybody might disagree with this, 331 00:13:12.570 --> 00:13:14.070 but I have a huge bias for action. 332 00:13:14.164 --> 00:13:15.227 I move really fast. 333 00:13:15.273 --> 00:13:16.492 I like people that do the same. 334 00:13:16.508 --> 00:13:18.258 And so I want to see somebody come in and hey, 335 00:13:18.273 --> 00:13:20.148 we hired you because we need this role. 336 00:13:20.195 --> 00:13:22.164 We don't need you to do six. 337 00:13:22.501 --> 00:13:25.404 six weeks worth of Google slides and here's what we could do. 338 00:13:25.544 --> 00:13:27.825 I want you to start making progress like right now. 339 00:13:27.927 --> 00:13:28.728 Let's put some, 340 00:13:28.729 --> 00:13:29.927 let's put something on the board. 341 00:13:30.388 --> 00:13:32.294 And when I talk about this in exit five and other people, 342 00:13:32.614 --> 00:13:32.935 some people, 343 00:13:33.075 --> 00:13:36.357 you can't really know what changes to make until you talk to customers. 344 00:13:36.358 --> 00:13:37.896 I'm not saying don't talk to customers. 345 00:13:38.404 --> 00:13:40.341 I'm not saying change everything right out of the gate, 346 00:13:40.357 --> 00:13:41.825 but there are small wins. 347 00:13:41.841 --> 00:13:41.966 Hey, 348 00:13:41.982 --> 00:13:43.622 I noticed there's no email. 349 00:13:43.685 --> 00:13:45.450 There's no email or this email that goes out. 350 00:13:45.451 --> 00:13:45.685 I was like, 351 00:13:45.700 --> 00:13:46.325 pretty bad. 352 00:13:47.060 --> 00:13:47.841 Can we change that? 353 00:13:48.263 --> 00:13:50.232 It's those little things early on that I think 354 00:13:50.337 --> 00:13:53.441 build up your credibility and you get the right to have those conversations later. 355 00:13:56.824 --> 00:13:57.863 So if 356 00:13:58.363 --> 00:14:01.925 I'm a founding PMM and I'm at an early stage startup, 357 00:14:02.691 --> 00:14:04.152 I'm curious from your experience, 358 00:14:04.754 --> 00:14:12.277 how did you build that influence to help navigate that conversation with your CEO before you were the April Dunford? 359 00:14:13.496 --> 00:14:13.699 Yeah, 360 00:14:13.793 --> 00:14:13.980 yeah. 361 00:14:13.981 --> 00:14:15.496 Because I was that too. 362 00:14:15.761 --> 00:14:33.482 right like nobody cared what i had to say about anything at the beginning even at the end to be honest like you know like like it doesn't get you that far with the founder to be honest here's here's how i used to look at it and 363 00:14:33.483 --> 00:14:43.748 this was true even when i just even you know when i wasn't at pmm this was true when i was a vice president of marketing you know like i would get hired to come in and the ceo would be like 364 00:14:44.889 --> 00:14:47.271 wave that marketing magic wand, 365 00:14:47.453 --> 00:14:47.812 April, 366 00:14:47.953 --> 00:14:52.535 and get the leads and the revenue going like this up to the right and, 367 00:14:52.757 --> 00:14:53.019 you know, 368 00:14:53.074 --> 00:14:53.917 and just get it done. 369 00:14:53.980 --> 00:15:02.019 And I would come in and my worry was that I would be building stuff on top of mushy positioning. 370 00:15:02.767 --> 00:15:03.928 which is foolish. 371 00:15:04.429 --> 00:15:11.676 So if I'm out there building campaigns and I'm going to be writing messaging and I'm going to be doing all this other stuff and I'm going to like, 372 00:15:11.816 --> 00:15:12.074 you know, 373 00:15:12.160 --> 00:15:14.699 fix the pitch deck and all the other things I'm going to do, 374 00:15:15.457 --> 00:15:16.137 but we're, 375 00:15:16.138 --> 00:15:16.363 you know, 376 00:15:16.418 --> 00:15:19.645 but we don't really know why we win in the market. 377 00:15:19.707 --> 00:15:23.066 We don't really know who our competitors are. 378 00:15:23.067 --> 00:15:25.863 We don't really understand what our differentiated value is. 379 00:15:25.988 --> 00:15:28.254 And now all that stuff is going to be junk. 380 00:15:28.973 --> 00:15:29.098 So 381 00:15:29.473 --> 00:15:31.738 I would come in and And now I can't. 382 00:15:32.699 --> 00:15:35.923 I have never once been successful at coming in, 383 00:15:36.222 --> 00:15:38.085 walking into the CEO's job, 384 00:15:38.245 --> 00:15:39.648 even as the vice president. 385 00:15:39.968 --> 00:15:42.105 I can't walk into the CEO founder and say, 386 00:15:42.409 --> 00:15:42.667 hey, 387 00:15:43.128 --> 00:15:43.769 you know what? 388 00:15:44.855 --> 00:15:49.933 I think this positioning is crap and we should fix it. 389 00:15:50.917 --> 00:15:54.480 It's a bit like waltzing in there and saying their baby is ugly. 390 00:15:54.761 --> 00:15:57.323 Like you're not going to get very far with that. 391 00:15:58.011 --> 00:15:59.105 So I would never do that. 392 00:15:59.120 --> 00:15:59.339 I mean, 393 00:15:59.402 --> 00:16:01.683 I might've tried to do that when I was junior and stupid. 394 00:16:01.843 --> 00:16:19.986 but you'll quickly discover that nobody has that influence right except certain people have that you know who has the influence to go in and walk in and tell the ceo their baby's ugly the ceo's parent april dunford i mean it's 395 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:28.564 not true like even now as a consultant like the Companies don't come to me until they've already decided they have a problem. 396 00:16:29.439 --> 00:16:32.702 April doesn't go and convince them they have a problem because that's impossible. 397 00:16:35.104 --> 00:16:37.225 So vice president of sales though, 398 00:16:37.264 --> 00:16:38.108 that's different. 399 00:16:39.030 --> 00:16:41.748 So if the vice president of sales comes in and says, 400 00:16:42.170 --> 00:16:43.795 we can't sell this stuff, 401 00:16:44.014 --> 00:16:44.733 I'm sorry. 402 00:16:45.577 --> 00:16:47.842 The CEO might not love that message, 403 00:16:47.920 --> 00:16:51.748 but they listen because rubber meets the road over in sales. 404 00:16:51.764 --> 00:16:52.827 We don't make our numbers. 405 00:16:54.217 --> 00:16:54.952 We're all going to die. 406 00:16:55.420 --> 00:16:57.311 So what I would do is I would come. 407 00:16:57.495 --> 00:16:58.876 I'm the brand new VP marketing. 408 00:16:59.116 --> 00:17:01.958 And I would walk over to sales and I'd say, 409 00:17:02.220 --> 00:17:03.040 I'm just here. 410 00:17:03.462 --> 00:17:04.243 I'm stupid. 411 00:17:04.282 --> 00:17:05.321 I don't know anything, 412 00:17:05.642 --> 00:17:06.126 but you know, 413 00:17:06.127 --> 00:17:06.884 I'm brand new. 414 00:17:07.509 --> 00:17:13.392 And I would just like to sit around on calls and talk to the reps about what's happening on these calls. 415 00:17:14.134 --> 00:17:18.743 So I'd sit in on the calls and I'd be listening for the signs of weak positioning. 416 00:17:18.821 --> 00:17:27.009 And so the signs of weak positioning is customer prospect gets on the call and the rep is pitching something. 417 00:17:27.375 --> 00:17:29.497 And the prospect is making this face, 418 00:17:29.536 --> 00:17:29.818 you know, 419 00:17:29.958 --> 00:17:30.237 like, 420 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:32.341 I don't understand thing you're talking about, 421 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:32.681 man. 422 00:17:32.841 --> 00:17:33.040 Like, 423 00:17:33.419 --> 00:17:33.560 and, 424 00:17:33.700 --> 00:17:37.263 and a lot of times you'd hear this phrase where you'd get on and you'd be like 425 00:17:37.646 --> 00:17:38.966 10 minutes into the call. 426 00:17:39.544 --> 00:17:40.427 And the prospect is like, 427 00:17:40.428 --> 00:17:40.552 no, 428 00:17:40.553 --> 00:17:40.646 no, 429 00:17:40.647 --> 00:17:40.771 no, 430 00:17:40.772 --> 00:17:40.888 no, 431 00:17:40.911 --> 00:17:41.028 no, 432 00:17:41.068 --> 00:17:41.193 no. 433 00:17:41.271 --> 00:17:41.747 Back it up, 434 00:17:41.966 --> 00:17:42.333 back it up. 435 00:17:42.334 --> 00:17:43.169 Go back to the beginning. 436 00:17:43.411 --> 00:17:44.396 What did you say at the beginning? 437 00:17:44.427 --> 00:17:44.568 Like, 438 00:17:44.818 --> 00:17:45.208 cause I'm just, 439 00:17:45.239 --> 00:17:46.661 I'm not quite getting it. 440 00:17:47.036 --> 00:17:49.724 And so you can see this profound confusion, 441 00:17:49.802 --> 00:17:52.333 like where a customer can't even figure out what you are, 442 00:17:52.693 --> 00:17:54.005 like can't even figure out what you are. 443 00:17:54.006 --> 00:17:54.818 So that's one sign. 444 00:17:54.943 --> 00:17:56.005 Second sign you get is this, 445 00:17:56.505 --> 00:17:56.708 where. 446 00:17:56.943 --> 00:17:58.424 prospect comes on and they say, 447 00:17:59.065 --> 00:17:59.385 oh yeah, 448 00:17:59.465 --> 00:17:59.625 yeah. 449 00:17:59.666 --> 00:18:01.867 So you guys are just like Salesforce and you're not, 450 00:18:02.028 --> 00:18:03.367 you're nothing like Salesforce. 451 00:18:03.430 --> 00:18:03.629 Like, 452 00:18:04.051 --> 00:18:04.731 and so they're, 453 00:18:04.953 --> 00:18:08.235 they've put you in a bucket that you don't belong in. 454 00:18:08.899 --> 00:18:10.196 And that's a really big problem. 455 00:18:10.197 --> 00:18:11.000 And then the rep will say, 456 00:18:11.258 --> 00:18:11.375 no, 457 00:18:11.399 --> 00:18:11.516 no, 458 00:18:11.517 --> 00:18:11.641 no, 459 00:18:11.642 --> 00:18:11.758 no, 460 00:18:11.774 --> 00:18:11.899 no, 461 00:18:11.900 --> 00:18:12.399 we're not that. 462 00:18:12.414 --> 00:18:12.539 No, 463 00:18:12.555 --> 00:18:12.680 no, 464 00:18:12.797 --> 00:18:13.696 let's go back to here. 465 00:18:13.727 --> 00:18:13.836 No, 466 00:18:13.883 --> 00:18:15.274 we actually do this other thing. 467 00:18:15.367 --> 00:18:16.117 And it's like this, 468 00:18:16.196 --> 00:18:16.461 you know? 469 00:18:16.555 --> 00:18:16.805 And so, 470 00:18:17.461 --> 00:18:18.961 so that's a sign your positioning sucks. 471 00:18:19.367 --> 00:18:22.946 The other one you'll get is this real pushback, 472 00:18:23.414 --> 00:18:24.086 like not, 473 00:18:24.289 --> 00:18:25.649 not even so much pushback on. 474 00:18:25.979 --> 00:18:26.939 pricing, 475 00:18:27.439 --> 00:18:28.339 but a bit like, 476 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:30.201 why would I pay for this? 477 00:18:30.361 --> 00:18:31.482 Like I get what it is, 478 00:18:31.541 --> 00:18:31.861 but like, 479 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:32.681 why would I pay for it? 480 00:18:32.682 --> 00:18:34.142 Can I just do it as a spreadsheet? 481 00:18:34.439 --> 00:18:36.900 Or like I'm using in my accounting package to do it right now. 482 00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:38.322 Can I just do it with that? 483 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:41.298 And so if I started seeing that stuff, 484 00:18:42.470 --> 00:18:45.767 then I would go and have lunch with the vice president of sales. 485 00:18:46.205 --> 00:18:47.298 And so I'm like, 486 00:18:47.299 --> 00:18:48.002 I'm new here, 487 00:18:48.439 --> 00:18:51.642 but I've been listening on a bunch of calls and I've been talking to your reps. 488 00:18:51.908 --> 00:18:52.720 And here's what I see. 489 00:18:52.798 --> 00:18:54.330 People don't understand what we are. 490 00:18:54.735 --> 00:18:56.536 people are comparing us to the wrong thing. 491 00:18:56.818 --> 00:18:58.519 People really don't understand the value. 492 00:18:58.878 --> 00:18:59.941 Do you see that? 493 00:19:00.241 --> 00:19:01.382 Do you think that's true? 494 00:19:01.843 --> 00:19:01.984 Now, 495 00:19:02.003 --> 00:19:02.980 if this is true, 496 00:19:03.527 --> 00:19:05.464 your vice president of sales sees it. 497 00:19:05.589 --> 00:19:06.605 He sees it every day. 498 00:19:07.847 --> 00:19:09.753 And so when I'm having that lunch, 499 00:19:10.331 --> 00:19:11.566 the vice president of sales is going to go, 500 00:19:11.628 --> 00:19:12.034 yeah, 501 00:19:12.097 --> 00:19:12.269 man, 502 00:19:12.316 --> 00:19:13.238 this is a problem. 503 00:19:13.269 --> 00:19:16.441 And they'll probably blame it on the product or they'll blame it on something. 504 00:19:16.442 --> 00:19:16.753 They'll say, 505 00:19:16.816 --> 00:19:16.941 oh, 506 00:19:16.956 --> 00:19:18.284 this is just really hard to sell. 507 00:19:18.300 --> 00:19:18.706 Or they'll say, 508 00:19:18.707 --> 00:19:18.816 oh, 509 00:19:18.817 --> 00:19:20.097 the market's really crowded or whatever. 510 00:19:20.144 --> 00:19:20.878 And I'll say, 511 00:19:21.425 --> 00:19:23.269 look over in marketing land, 512 00:19:23.503 --> 00:19:25.625 We have this concept and it's called positioning. 513 00:19:25.746 --> 00:19:26.746 And here's what it is. 514 00:19:27.127 --> 00:19:31.009 Have we ever done a formal positioning process in this company? 515 00:19:31.513 --> 00:19:32.951 And the answer is almost always no. 516 00:19:34.037 --> 00:19:34.490 And I'll say, 517 00:19:35.615 --> 00:19:39.201 I'm not saying the positioning is bad and I don't know what it would look like if it was better, 518 00:19:39.677 --> 00:19:41.068 but I think it's worth, 519 00:19:41.615 --> 00:19:43.209 given what I'm hearing on the sales side, 520 00:19:43.224 --> 00:19:44.443 I think it's worth looking at it. 521 00:19:44.865 --> 00:19:46.052 I think we should just look at it. 522 00:19:47.443 --> 00:19:51.084 Then I would go have the exact same conversation with the person running product. 523 00:19:52.030 --> 00:19:52.410 Same thing. 524 00:19:52.511 --> 00:19:52.891 I'd be like, 525 00:19:52.892 --> 00:19:52.971 Hey, 526 00:19:52.972 --> 00:19:53.532 I'm over in, 527 00:19:53.812 --> 00:19:56.154 I'm over in sales and here's what I'm seeing. 528 00:19:56.513 --> 00:19:58.798 I'm seeing we get compared to things we shouldn't be compared to. 529 00:19:59.298 --> 00:20:00.001 I'm seeing this, 530 00:20:00.056 --> 00:20:00.681 I'm seeing that. 531 00:20:01.040 --> 00:20:01.923 Do you see that? 532 00:20:01.962 --> 00:20:02.158 I mean, 533 00:20:02.197 --> 00:20:03.923 you spend a lot of time with customers. 534 00:20:03.924 --> 00:20:04.603 Do you see that? 535 00:20:05.001 --> 00:20:07.384 This general confusion about what we are and whatever. 536 00:20:07.486 --> 00:20:07.884 And again, 537 00:20:08.001 --> 00:20:08.939 if it is a problem, 538 00:20:09.408 --> 00:20:10.283 product sees it too. 539 00:20:10.673 --> 00:20:12.876 They might not necessarily think it's positioning. 540 00:20:12.877 --> 00:20:13.345 They might say, 541 00:20:13.736 --> 00:20:13.986 well, 542 00:20:14.048 --> 00:20:14.314 you know, 543 00:20:14.329 --> 00:20:17.329 we have this roadmap and once we get these five things built, 544 00:20:17.361 --> 00:20:19.189 then everything's going to be perfect and whatever. 545 00:20:19.251 --> 00:20:19.642 And I'm like, 546 00:20:19.834 --> 00:20:19.954 Yeah, 547 00:20:20.034 --> 00:20:20.254 okay, 548 00:20:20.315 --> 00:20:21.796 but while we're building those things, 549 00:20:21.837 --> 00:20:24.720 every day we have to do deals and we suck at doing deals. 550 00:20:24.778 --> 00:20:26.501 So maybe we could fix this. 551 00:20:26.782 --> 00:20:27.966 In marketing land, 552 00:20:28.263 --> 00:20:31.028 sometimes we can fix this by tightening up the positioning. 553 00:20:31.083 --> 00:20:33.646 Have we ever done a positioning exercise at this company? 554 00:20:33.708 --> 00:20:35.232 And the answer is almost always no. 555 00:20:36.075 --> 00:20:37.028 Then I go to the CEO. 556 00:20:37.997 --> 00:20:39.732 So then I go to the CEO and I'm not coming in there saying, 557 00:20:39.935 --> 00:20:41.513 you gotta do this because I said, 558 00:20:41.669 --> 00:20:45.060 and I'm the smartest marketer on the planet. 559 00:20:45.372 --> 00:20:46.107 I go in and I say, 560 00:20:46.153 --> 00:20:46.325 look, 561 00:20:46.388 --> 00:20:46.919 I'm dumb. 562 00:20:47.185 --> 00:20:47.919 I don't know anything. 563 00:20:48.107 --> 00:20:48.778 I'm brand new here. 564 00:20:48.810 --> 00:20:49.450 I don't know a thing. 565 00:20:49.902 --> 00:20:53.125 But here's what I'm hearing in sales calls. 566 00:20:54.088 --> 00:20:56.627 I'm seeing nobody understands our value. 567 00:20:57.111 --> 00:21:02.338 I'm seeing the sales calls really rough at the beginning because people really don't understand what we are. 568 00:21:02.814 --> 00:21:03.994 And I'm seeing this, 569 00:21:04.072 --> 00:21:06.541 we're getting compared to people we shouldn't be compared to. 570 00:21:07.306 --> 00:21:11.416 And so before I go and spend a lot of effort doing this, 571 00:21:11.650 --> 00:21:15.010 I think it would make sense to get a little team together, 572 00:21:15.463 --> 00:21:15.635 you, 573 00:21:16.088 --> 00:21:16.213 me, 574 00:21:16.666 --> 00:21:17.135 product, 575 00:21:17.213 --> 00:21:17.650 sales, 576 00:21:18.025 --> 00:21:18.838 let's get together. 577 00:21:19.630 --> 00:21:24.073 And we'll just go through this little exercise and see if we can't tighten up that positioning and make it better. 578 00:21:24.316 --> 00:21:25.558 And what does the CEO say? 579 00:21:25.995 --> 00:21:26.558 They don't say, 580 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:27.237 oh yeah, 581 00:21:27.296 --> 00:21:27.558 April, 582 00:21:27.620 --> 00:21:28.277 let's do that. 583 00:21:28.542 --> 00:21:29.003 They say, 584 00:21:29.417 --> 00:21:32.003 what does John over in sales think about this? 585 00:21:32.159 --> 00:21:32.761 And I say, 586 00:21:33.159 --> 00:21:33.402 gosh, 587 00:21:33.441 --> 00:21:34.323 I have no idea. 588 00:21:34.425 --> 00:21:35.284 Let's call him. 589 00:21:35.862 --> 00:21:38.581 And then we get John on the phone and John says, 590 00:21:39.128 --> 00:21:39.284 yeah, 591 00:21:39.362 --> 00:21:39.566 man, 592 00:21:39.567 --> 00:21:41.425 I've been thinking about this for a long time. 593 00:21:42.112 --> 00:21:42.331 And 594 00:21:42.800 --> 00:21:43.159 I think, 595 00:21:43.237 --> 00:21:43.675 yeah, 596 00:21:43.676 --> 00:21:45.550 it would be a good idea because I already sold him. 597 00:21:47.806 --> 00:21:50.247 And then they call product and I've already sold them too. 598 00:21:50.369 --> 00:21:52.829 She's got her reference call already in the bag. 599 00:22:03.244 --> 00:22:05.540 Thank you for listening to Win at Marketers. 600 00:22:06.150 --> 00:22:07.119 If you liked what you heard, 601 00:22:07.384 --> 00:22:08.212 please subscribe, 602 00:22:08.540 --> 00:22:09.665 review our podcast, 603 00:22:09.994 --> 00:22:11.947 and share this episode with other PMMs. 604 00:22:12.525 --> 00:22:13.790 Thanks again and see you soon.