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My guest this week decided to start a business about five years ago with a clear goal in mind.

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He wanted that business to be truly regenerative.

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Let me explain.

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Most businesses today are focusing on sustainability.

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They're trying to be a bit less bad,

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but their net impact on people and planet is still a negative one.

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It's still detrimental.

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And if you had to scale one of those businesses 1,000 times bigger,

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then their negative impact would also grow

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1000 times bigger.

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But a truly regenerative business has a net positive impact on people and planet.

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And therefore,

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if you had to scale that business 1000 times bigger,

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well,

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the positive impact of that company,

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of that business would also grow 1000 times bigger.

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The story you'll hear in this conversation is about a Dutch company called Wilder Land.

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And they have achieved this incredible feat of creating a profitable business that is good for biodiversity,

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that is good for soils,

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that is great for the farmers they work with,

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and that is also delicious for their customers.

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And I can attest to that because I tried a lot of their products and I have to say they're amazing.

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This episode was produced in partnership with Soil Capital.

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I am your host Raphael and this is the Deep Seed Podcast.

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Hi Matthijs,

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great to meet you.

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Thank you so much for welcoming me here in your offices in Amsterdam.

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Yes,

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great having you here.

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And to start the conversation,

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I would love to hear a little bit more about your personal story and how you got here,

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basically.

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Yes.

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So yeah,

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hi,

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I'm Matthijs Westerwoud from Wilderland.

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I co-founded Wilderland together with Dan already five years ago,

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or then we started with the idea.

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Before that,

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my study background is in psychology and business administration.

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And

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I worked in some sort of creative project management firm,

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always looking to start my own business because I always felt I want to become an entrepreneur and want to build or create a business.

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and also in the field of sustainability,

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future-proof businesses,

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so to say.

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And while working in this creative project management firm,

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I worked for a lot of big international companies.

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And

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I felt always looking like,

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what do I want?

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Where am I good at?

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And what is the thing I want to do?

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And one thing that I learned is that I wasn't inspired at all by the way sustainability was done or treated in these big,

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big companies.

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I always felt like,

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yeah,

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this is doing less bad.

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So yeah,

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who cares?

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Why not be more ambitious?

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So then I realized that sustainability wasn't it for me because it felt like,

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yeah,

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it's less bad.

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And I did this thought experiment with myself.

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So what if I start my own business and what if it will become a huge success?

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What if the whole world will start using my product,

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service or whatever?

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Will it become a new problem or will it be truly a solution?

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And then I found that most of the sustainable businesses only.

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can become a new problem if they really scale up.

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So for instance a good example is let's say organic tea from Sri Lanka.

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If the whole world starts drinking organic tea then they need to cut down more rainforests in Sri Lanka and create more monocultures to create this tea.

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I see so the idea is that sometimes something is a good idea on a small scale.

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Yes.

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Like doing something organic is better than not.

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But actually if you scale that

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really big,

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you create other kind of issues.

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Yes,

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and palm oil is a great example because palm oil is the most efficient plant-based oil.

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we have found yet.

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So in the

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1980s, palm oil was the most sustainable oil there was.

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And then people are like,

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okay,

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so this is sustainable?

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Yes,

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let's kill the shit out of this.

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And then 40 years later,

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it's a huge problem because all rainforest is cut for palm oil production because the whole world started using palm oil.

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But it was so sustainable.

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Yeah,

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not on this scale.

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So...

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And for me,

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that was a really nice thought experiment.

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And I noticed that every time I did this experiment on a new product or whatever,

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and I thought like,

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yeah,

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no,

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it will become a new problem eventually.

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And then I lost all my motivation.

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And so it wasn't really,

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I made it quite tough for myself to find the right.

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So while you were looking for business ideas and for project ideas,

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and every time you would apply this thinking process,

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you would come up with...

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the conclusion yes and and actually they're like the two like or throw more garbage into this world by making products or whatever or create more monocultures and then it was like ah i don't want that or i am and then i found out about common land uh i

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learned there's a dutch documentary made about them and i saw that and then i felt like wow they have this model

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which integrates a business model in nature restoration.

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And then for me,

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it was like,

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oh,

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wow.

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So then you create a business model that creates more natural capital.

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Or so the bigger this company becomes,

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the more nature returns.

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And for me,

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that was like mind blowing.

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They're like,

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oh,

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wow,

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you can combine business like being really commercial and selling nice things and meanwhile creating more nature.

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That was for me like,

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oh,

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way out.

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I need to look into this.

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So then I felt like,

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yeah,

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if the starting point of a business is nature restoration or landscape restoration,

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then yeah,

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better make it big because the bigger,

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the more nature.

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And then I met Dan and he...

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He started working at Commonland and a few years later we coincidentally met again and

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I said,

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yeah,

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I want to start a business and I'm hugely inspired by Commonland and you work there.

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And he said,

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yeah,

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I work there,

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but I want to start my own business as well.

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And then we said like,

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okay,

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let's work together.

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And so we quit our jobs and we said,

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we want to create a business in the Netherlands inspired by the Commonland model.

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and we had no clue what to do so you just yeah you just quit your job you're like let's start a business we don't know what yet but we we have the same energy we know what we want to do and we have the feeling this this one way or another we'll we'll find something and this is um worth

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the energy to dive into and see what comes out that's an amazing example and story for a lot of

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I speak to often,

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and I think some of the listeners from this podcast who are thinking about maybe quitting their jobs and starting their own business or starting a new career in a different field that they really want to get into,

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but they're struggling to find the courage to do that.

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Maybe your story will bring them some motivation.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And so actually there were,

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I think there are two things that really helped us.

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So we already had some background in entrepreneurship.

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So we had all these side hustles all the time.

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So we had a bit of experience.

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creating a small companies and and that was actually the the biggest help is that the starting point was so clear we wanted we want to contribute to nature and by by having these like these clear boundaries based on the common land model it

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is even easier so like okay yeah considering packaging considering production all these things you're gonna like yeah does it contribute to nature yes or no so therefore it so the direction is really clear

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It's still also very difficult,

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but by having like,

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okay,

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we want to go that direction and everything we find in that direction that sounds like a good business model,

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we'll dive into.

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Because otherwise it can be like,

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I want to start a business in this field,

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like,

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oh yeah,

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and it's maybe even too broad.

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So that's really unusual.

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Instead of starting with,

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we want to do this product or we want to launch this service or this business,

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you started with,

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we want to start by...

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regenerating yes and and then you started from there and then yes yeah yeah yeah yeah so and then we talked with a lot of farmers and also ecologists from the weiland in the netherlands and commonland network so we talked with a lot of people

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and so we heard two things so the ecologist saying okay yeah if you want to do something that contributes to nature it's basically less monocultures and more native plants that's what you need to do okay um and we talked also with a lot of farmers and we talked we started talking with farmers because uh especially

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in the netherlands the biggest land users are farmers so around 60 of the the land in the netherlands is is managed by farmers so then if you want to

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contribute to nature let's start talking to the biggest land owner the agricultural um and so we we talked to these farmers and we said like okay we want to create a business together with you uh and find a business model actually we

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were looking for a business model on biodiversity so the so the more you sell the more the more biodiversity returns to your land and then all these farmers said we would love to do that we would love to be

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produce as sustainable as possible and and completely work together with nature and so from conventional farms so basically they say like oh yeah sounds really great but there's only one thing there needs to be a market because

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we can do it as as agro ecological regenerative by the verse as possible but if we cannot sell anything we will stop it um

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And so we said,

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okay,

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yeah.

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And so,

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and we said,

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yeah,

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yeah,

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we heard it from these ecologists that we need to plant more,

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less monoculture and more native plants.

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And then these farmers says,

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yeah,

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these are weeds.

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We cannot make any money with weeds.

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We said,

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okay,

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yeah,

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sorry.

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We back to these ecologists are like,

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yeah,

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you're talking about native plants.

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What kind of plants are we talking about?

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Because Don and I,

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we didn't have any background in.

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agri or ecology or whatever.

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And then it was like,

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yeah,

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chamomile,

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dandelion,

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plantain,

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yarrow,

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all these weeds.

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But then we said,

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wait a minute,

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you said chamomile and nettle.

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And then we thought,

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this sounds like tea,

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right?

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So chamomile tea.

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And then we thought,

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firstly,

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we thought this is too easy making local tea.

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from chamomile.

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We thought that if chamomile grows like weeds in the Netherlands,

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then probably there are already,

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the chamomile tea we drink in the Netherlands is already coming from the Netherlands.

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Then we looked into that and we found out that most of the herbal tea is coming from even outside of Europe,

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like that it's from Egypt or India.

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So the big herbal tea brands source there are.

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herbs over there.

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And then we thought,

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oh,

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wow.

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So if more chamomile,

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nettle,

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these plants are great for biodiversity,

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then we can make tea from it.

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And if we can sell them locally,

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then we can create a business model on plants that are grown locally,

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that attract a lot of insects,

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and then we can pay the farmers for growing them.

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So that was the first.

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first step of finding like,

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oh,

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wow,

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this sounds like a business model.

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So,

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and that also was a conclusion of when we talked,

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so we talked with farmers and we talked with ecologists and all these people that are really into this field of agroecology,

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regenerative agriculture.

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And then what we figured was that our added value could be creating this market.

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because we are more from an entrepreneurial side.

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So then we thought like,

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00:12:33.512 --> 00:12:33.632
oh,

259
00:12:33.832 --> 00:12:40.736
if we can create the market for these regeneratively grown plants and create nice products from them,

260
00:12:41.556 --> 00:12:42.537
we can create a market.

261
00:12:42.817 --> 00:12:43.717
And if there's a market,

262
00:12:43.777 --> 00:12:44.558
farmers will follow.

263
00:12:44.878 --> 00:12:55.044
And if we can integrate like these biodiversity nature restoration into the proposition of this brand or this product,

264
00:12:55.464 --> 00:12:55.924
we...

265
00:12:57.861 --> 00:13:12.985
we want to create um then we can tell these stories and then we can even tell the story why it's more expensive and why it's it's the way we do it um and and then there's like this big ambitious goal uh uh came

266
00:13:13.025 --> 00:13:27.109
into our minds like what if we can become the regenerative unilever so to create a brand called wilderland with all kind of different products below that that are all super nice but

267
00:13:27.881 --> 00:13:34.370
that as a consumer you know if I buy something from wilderland it's locally sourced and it's good for nature,

268
00:13:34.751 --> 00:13:35.992
it's nature recovering.

269
00:13:37.294 --> 00:13:42.141
So that and then herbal tea was the first product we started working on.

270
00:13:43.191 --> 00:13:45.493
And so what was the first steps to making that tea?

271
00:13:45.513 --> 00:13:50.136
So did you work with farmers to grow those native plants that you needed?

272
00:13:50.196 --> 00:13:50.816
Yeah,

273
00:13:51.537 --> 00:14:02.464
so the idea behind is like okay let's ask farmers to grow more native plants on their field and pay them properly for them and ask them so more native plants in a non-monoculture way.

274
00:14:03.145 --> 00:14:05.226
So that's the thing.

275
00:14:05.547 --> 00:14:06.487
So then we started,

276
00:14:06.527 --> 00:14:07.668
so in the beginning we started,

277
00:14:07.668 --> 00:14:08.369
we had no clue,

278
00:14:08.509 --> 00:14:09.249
we had no idea,

279
00:14:09.730 --> 00:14:11.571
but the only thing we thought like yeah.

280
00:14:11.931 --> 00:14:12.431
Chamomile,

281
00:14:12.751 --> 00:14:14.532
if you put chamomile fresh in hot water,

282
00:14:14.952 --> 00:14:15.832
you have chamomile tea.

283
00:14:15.892 --> 00:14:18.393
And if you dry it and put it in hot water,

284
00:14:18.433 --> 00:14:19.533
you have chamomile tea as well.

285
00:14:20.333 --> 00:14:20.913
And in the beginning,

286
00:14:20.933 --> 00:14:23.114
we started with a few farmers,

287
00:14:23.274 --> 00:14:26.455
like more from the Weiland network.

288
00:14:27.495 --> 00:14:28.135
And we asked them,

289
00:14:28.215 --> 00:14:28.335
yeah,

290
00:14:28.535 --> 00:14:32.016
can we start experimenting growing herbs on your land?

291
00:14:32.076 --> 00:14:33.897
Because we want to make tea out of them.

292
00:14:34.397 --> 00:14:36.398
And a lot of farmers really laughed and like,

293
00:14:36.438 --> 00:14:36.658
what?

294
00:14:38.118 --> 00:14:41.019
You want to turn weeds into products?

295
00:14:41.119 --> 00:14:41.499
And we said.

296
00:14:41.719 --> 00:14:56.827
yes that's that's um interesting actually the the word weeds and the way we categorize different plants into the good ones and the bad ones yes i just thought about this but i grew up i mean i grew up quite close to nature and we

297
00:14:56.827 --> 00:15:11.215
had a big garden my father was working in the garden with a vegetable patch and i was helping him out and i remember asking him which one were the good plants and the bad plants that and you need to take out so you know i think we all grew up with this mindset that there's good plants and there's

298
00:15:11.495 --> 00:15:26.749
bad plants that we call weeds yes it's very uh negative word actually super negative yeah because the the the thing with these weeds are native plants often is that they grow they have been here for more than 10 000 years so so

299
00:15:27.029 --> 00:15:38.399
and now we say yeah you're a weed you don't belong here um so if you and if you look into the the the uh so the ecological value of these

300
00:15:38.883 --> 00:15:40.684
native plants is huge.

301
00:15:40.804 --> 00:15:44.586
It's way better than non-native plants.

302
00:15:44.586 --> 00:15:45.026
So that is,

303
00:15:46.206 --> 00:15:51.449
so therefore weeds is super strange word because the ecological value is great.

304
00:15:52.329 --> 00:15:58.932
So there's a wide range of benefits actually that are linked to these weeds.

305
00:15:58.932 --> 00:16:00.933
And you can make really nice things out of them.

306
00:16:01.473 --> 00:16:02.753
The roots go deeper,

307
00:16:03.854 --> 00:16:05.194
the soil improves.

308
00:16:05.315 --> 00:16:06.135
So it's,

309
00:16:07.115 --> 00:16:29.187
it's yeah it's the plant that that belongs here and and we started saying no no you don't belong here yeah anymore yeah right uh but it was just us not having or or looking at them in the right way because if you look into the the wide variety of benefits they provide us with like ecological benefits not soil health whatever uh

310
00:16:29.207 --> 00:16:36.711
culinary benefit like then it's like wow you're like a super super plant uh let let's uh let's collaborate

311
00:16:37.007 --> 00:16:37.127
Yeah,

312
00:16:37.167 --> 00:16:38.768
I love that you're flipping the narrative.

313
00:16:38.988 --> 00:16:39.149
Yeah.

314
00:16:39.289 --> 00:16:39.409
Yeah.

315
00:16:39.769 --> 00:16:39.889
So,

316
00:16:40.529 --> 00:16:42.751
and we call our tea unherbal tea.

317
00:16:42.831 --> 00:16:43.572
And so the un,

318
00:16:44.172 --> 00:16:44.892
that's from Dutch,

319
00:16:45.033 --> 00:16:45.593
unkraald,

320
00:16:46.233 --> 00:16:47.214
it's between brackets.

321
00:16:47.514 --> 00:16:48.295
So it's like,

322
00:16:48.555 --> 00:16:48.695
yeah,

323
00:16:49.095 --> 00:16:50.536
are they herbs or weeds?

324
00:16:51.877 --> 00:16:52.197
Whatever.

325
00:16:54.139 --> 00:16:55.159
We leave it in the middle.

326
00:16:56.841 --> 00:16:57.461
By the way,

327
00:16:57.541 --> 00:16:59.322
like for people watching the video version,

328
00:16:59.382 --> 00:17:01.063
I'm drinking a delicious,

329
00:17:01.123 --> 00:17:01.464
what is it?

330
00:17:01.444 --> 00:17:01.884
A smoky,

331
00:17:02.144 --> 00:17:02.544
holy smoke.

332
00:17:02.564 --> 00:17:03.145
Holy smoke.

333
00:17:03.205 --> 00:17:03.345
Yeah.

334
00:17:03.385 --> 00:17:03.765
So yeah.

335
00:17:03.985 --> 00:17:05.066
It is absolutely delicious.

336
00:17:05.166 --> 00:17:06.067
What's in this one?

337
00:17:07.067 --> 00:17:08.388
It's smoked birch leaf,

338
00:17:08.728 --> 00:17:11.410
meadow sweet and water mint.

339
00:17:12.670 --> 00:17:19.874
And actually this flavor of the Holy Smoky was even inspired by the peatlands.

340
00:17:20.675 --> 00:17:21.415
And we tried to,

341
00:17:21.775 --> 00:17:22.936
so the peatlands are in the,

342
00:17:22.976 --> 00:17:25.798
they used to harvest peat from there,

343
00:17:26.138 --> 00:17:27.779
like in the past centuries,

344
00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:30.600
which has this smoky flavor to it.

345
00:17:31.541 --> 00:17:35.303
And now actually the challenge of the peatlands is that they need to

346
00:17:35.543 --> 00:18:03.327
be re-watered again or so now they're too dry and there needs to become more water so we choose these plants that could all um benefit that landscape benefit that landscape and and and work in a more wet or like create the wetlands again so by drinking more holy smoky you're regenerating the peatlands how cool is that yeah amazing yeah yeah because if we need more birch leaf then we say to the farmers please plant more birches on your land

347
00:18:03.467 --> 00:18:04.147
And then farmers say,

348
00:18:04.147 --> 00:18:04.388
oh yeah,

349
00:18:04.408 --> 00:18:08.110
if I can make money by growing birch and meadow sweet,

350
00:18:08.150 --> 00:18:08.611
of course,

351
00:18:09.691 --> 00:18:10.452
I'll integrate it.

352
00:18:10.532 --> 00:18:10.852
Awesome.

353
00:18:10.892 --> 00:18:11.452
That's amazing.

354
00:18:11.573 --> 00:18:12.253
For people listening,

355
00:18:12.253 --> 00:18:14.715
if you're looking for ethical presents,

356
00:18:14.775 --> 00:18:15.595
birthdays and stuff,

357
00:18:15.635 --> 00:18:15.855
I mean,

358
00:18:16.336 --> 00:18:18.057
we're recording this just before Christmas,

359
00:18:18.157 --> 00:18:19.038
but unfortunately,

360
00:18:19.318 --> 00:18:21.819
it will be released after Christmas.

361
00:18:21.940 --> 00:18:23.841
But there's still birthdays and other occasions.

362
00:18:24.161 --> 00:18:25.622
That's an amazing gift idea.

363
00:18:25.762 --> 00:18:26.983
It's something delicious,

364
00:18:27.383 --> 00:18:31.826
but that is actually actively contributing to regenerating and rewilding.

365
00:18:32.647 --> 00:18:32.767
Yeah.

366
00:18:32.967 --> 00:18:46.570
nature yeah so awesome yeah there's only one disadvantage that's the price the rest is all good yeah yeah so is it considerably more expensive than other blends of teas that you would find in your local supermarket um

367
00:18:47.638 --> 00:18:48.399
So for the tea,

368
00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:48.959
actually,

369
00:18:49.199 --> 00:18:51.961
it's not that expensive anymore.

370
00:18:52.682 --> 00:18:53.382
Or yes,

371
00:18:53.562 --> 00:18:56.404
it's amongst the more expensive blends.

372
00:18:57.185 --> 00:18:59.727
So we compare ourselves to Monoland.

373
00:18:59.847 --> 00:19:01.968
We say you have Monoland and Wilderland,

374
00:19:01.988 --> 00:19:03.870
and let's work towards a Wilderland.

375
00:19:04.670 --> 00:19:08.073
And all products coming from Monoland are super efficient,

376
00:19:08.133 --> 00:19:08.713
super cheap,

377
00:19:08.773 --> 00:19:09.714
super anonymous,

378
00:19:10.275 --> 00:19:11.415
maybe even tasteless,

379
00:19:12.496 --> 00:19:13.617
artificial and fake,

380
00:19:14.277 --> 00:19:14.898
super cheap.

381
00:19:16.978 --> 00:19:19.500
And everything from Wilderland is local,

382
00:19:19.660 --> 00:19:20.440
inefficient,

383
00:19:21.081 --> 00:19:21.921
super tasty,

384
00:19:22.201 --> 00:19:24.282
super good for farmers,

385
00:19:24.322 --> 00:19:25.623
super good for the people working.

386
00:19:25.623 --> 00:19:26.303
So there's no,

387
00:19:27.164 --> 00:19:29.265
this only thing is the price.

388
00:19:29.685 --> 00:19:31.206
So we put the price at the consumer.

389
00:19:32.847 --> 00:19:33.447
Or you could say,

390
00:19:33.527 --> 00:19:33.647
yeah,

391
00:19:33.707 --> 00:19:37.269
we are a bit more expensive or the products from Monoland are too cheap.

392
00:19:38.050 --> 00:19:38.190
Yeah.

393
00:19:38.902 --> 00:19:53.853
yeah yeah um and therefore so because it's a bit more expensive gifting is really nice way for people to start um um or taste or experience our products because for

394
00:19:53.873 --> 00:20:06.522
a gift it's a different and they say oh yeah this is a really nice gift try it and then um so actually it's nice that you say gifting because that's a really nice first step for a lot of people to get in touch with our products

395
00:20:06.998 --> 00:20:07.218
Okay,

396
00:20:07.498 --> 00:20:07.678
sweet.

397
00:20:07.778 --> 00:20:10.479
So we'll get into more detail later in the conversation.

398
00:20:10.539 --> 00:20:13.400
And I want to bring you back to where I interrupted you,

399
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:15.621
which was the farmers were saying,

400
00:20:15.741 --> 00:20:16.981
you want us to grow weeds?

401
00:20:17.041 --> 00:20:17.661
Are you crazy?

402
00:20:17.841 --> 00:20:17.981
Yeah.

403
00:20:18.241 --> 00:20:18.381
Yeah.

404
00:20:18.641 --> 00:20:19.242
Let's get back to that.

405
00:20:19.242 --> 00:20:19.362
Yeah.

406
00:20:19.422 --> 00:20:22.422
So that was the farmer is like,

407
00:20:22.563 --> 00:20:24.583
you want me to grow weeds?

408
00:20:24.623 --> 00:20:26.164
You turn them into a product?

409
00:20:26.544 --> 00:20:26.764
Yes,

410
00:20:27.004 --> 00:20:28.104
let's try it.

411
00:20:29.605 --> 00:20:30.045
And luckily,

412
00:20:30.125 --> 00:20:34.306
there were some farmers that thought that this idea was so crazy that they said.

413
00:20:34.650 --> 00:20:49.634
oh this is so crazy let's go and so we started with with some farms and really started experimenting so how to do this and and and how does it work and so

414
00:20:49.914 --> 00:21:04.198
we started experimenting on the land together with farms and we even and we directly started experimenting in how to sell this so we we started a website and the nice thing with a website is is that you can easily adjust and

415
00:21:04.298 --> 00:21:08.020
test and see what works well,

416
00:21:09.461 --> 00:21:13.683
because that's the biggest challenge is selling it.

417
00:21:14.043 --> 00:21:15.444
That's what these farmers said,

418
00:21:15.504 --> 00:21:15.704
like,

419
00:21:16.024 --> 00:21:16.185
yeah,

420
00:21:16.785 --> 00:21:17.625
it can be done.

421
00:21:18.206 --> 00:21:25.950
And there are enough examples around the world of great farms that really work closely to nature and that regenerate the land.

422
00:21:26.830 --> 00:21:28.671
But why isn't it big?

423
00:21:28.792 --> 00:21:30.853
Why is the market share of regenerative?

424
00:21:30.873 --> 00:21:33.094
Why is the market share of organic or biodynamic?

425
00:21:33.470 --> 00:21:35.351
as low as it is,

426
00:21:36.031 --> 00:21:38.171
because it's really difficult to sell.

427
00:21:38.491 --> 00:21:41.712
So therefore we also took this really seriously.

428
00:21:42.032 --> 00:21:43.393
We need to create this market.

429
00:21:43.433 --> 00:21:44.473
So how to sell this?

430
00:21:46.014 --> 00:21:48.634
And so we started with an online,

431
00:21:49.194 --> 00:21:54.776
so with a web shop selling local tea and we tested.

432
00:21:54.896 --> 00:22:00.338
So do we need to talk about bees and butterflies or do we need to say this is regenerative or?

433
00:22:02.090 --> 00:22:02.370
But wait,

434
00:22:02.370 --> 00:22:05.972
so that tea that you were selling on that early website was not the tea that you were making yet?

435
00:22:06.012 --> 00:22:06.172
No.

436
00:22:06.273 --> 00:22:07.573
You didn't have the product yet?

437
00:22:07.653 --> 00:22:07.793
Yes,

438
00:22:07.873 --> 00:22:08.894
we didn't have the product yet.

439
00:22:09.074 --> 00:22:15.418
But there is in the Netherlands another organic small herbal tea farm,

440
00:22:15.598 --> 00:22:16.118
so to say.

441
00:22:16.939 --> 00:22:19.060
And we bought the herbs from them.

442
00:22:19.600 --> 00:22:20.921
So we said like,

443
00:22:20.961 --> 00:22:21.121
okay,

444
00:22:21.201 --> 00:22:23.182
let's buy the herbs as local,

445
00:22:23.583 --> 00:22:29.426
as organic or biodynamic as possible until we have our own harvest.

446
00:22:30.766 --> 00:22:32.968
Because then we can start creating the market.

447
00:22:34.309 --> 00:22:37.752
Because if we would wait for our own harvest and in the first year,

448
00:22:38.052 --> 00:22:42.695
maybe we had 50 kilo of our own harvest.

449
00:22:42.715 --> 00:22:43.016
And then,

450
00:22:43.156 --> 00:22:43.276
yeah,

451
00:22:43.416 --> 00:22:43.736
after that,

452
00:22:44.177 --> 00:22:44.797
we're sold out.

453
00:22:44.877 --> 00:22:46.218
Let's wait for the next season.

454
00:22:47.379 --> 00:22:53.664
What we wanted is that we could show to these farmers like we have huge demand for like these herbs,

455
00:22:54.044 --> 00:22:54.344
come on,

456
00:22:55.185 --> 00:22:56.146
start growing more.

457
00:22:57.154 --> 00:22:58.195
And that's still the thing.

458
00:22:58.515 --> 00:22:59.335
So at the moment,

459
00:22:59.736 --> 00:23:00.996
we have a lot of harvest,

460
00:23:01.136 --> 00:23:07.020
but still every year we aim at 100% of our own crop.

461
00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:08.460
But actually,

462
00:23:09.381 --> 00:23:10.501
if demand rises,

463
00:23:10.582 --> 00:23:13.443
so maybe if we grow

464
00:23:13.963 --> 00:23:15.164
200% in one year,

465
00:23:15.544 --> 00:23:17.825
we could say yes to all demand.

466
00:23:17.925 --> 00:23:18.586
Everybody like,

467
00:23:18.646 --> 00:23:18.866
okay,

468
00:23:18.866 --> 00:23:19.486
I want more.

469
00:23:19.927 --> 00:23:23.789
Then we'll buy it from maybe Germany or France,

470
00:23:24.369 --> 00:23:26.170
like biodynamic.

471
00:23:27.042 --> 00:23:43.180
and then in the year after we could say like last year we sold 500 kilos of chamomile so then we can say to the farmers we work with okay you can increase the volume of chamomile so because we did that we could create the market

472
00:23:44.084 --> 00:23:47.427
and then afterwards we could allow more farmers.

473
00:23:47.788 --> 00:23:48.028
Right,

474
00:23:48.228 --> 00:23:48.408
okay,

475
00:23:48.448 --> 00:23:53.633
that gives you this flexibility to fill up the demand by sourcing the products elsewhere when you need to.

476
00:23:53.693 --> 00:23:53.853
Yes,

477
00:23:56.976 --> 00:23:59.839
and also it's really important to test the flavors.

478
00:24:00.840 --> 00:24:09.168
So our criteria are that we want the plants mostly native or local species that attract

479
00:24:09.428 --> 00:24:38.456
a lot of insects and we need to figure out how to create great taste because that's a really important aspect because a consumer will buy it once if it's good for nature but will not come back if it doesn't taste right and we want people to come back and therefore taste is really important so therefore testing the flavors is also really important because then we say like oh yes these three ingredients with a bit of smoky or with a bit of this they work really well

480
00:24:38.876 --> 00:24:54.189
and then you say like okay wow now demand is rising this flavor is like a killer product and then it's it's more easy to say to these farmers yeah they're weeds but we have huge demand for meadow sweet come on start

481
00:24:54.329 --> 00:25:07.480
start to start growing it and so therefore always having the market is the most important thing because if we don't have the market we cannot pay the farmers and farmers will stop growing it for us

482
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:10.541
So the first step was creating that market that was successful.

483
00:25:10.641 --> 00:25:11.462
You could experiment,

484
00:25:11.502 --> 00:25:12.562
see what the demand was,

485
00:25:13.102 --> 00:25:14.563
show the farmers that there was a demand.

486
00:25:14.823 --> 00:25:18.205
And then what was the next step?

487
00:25:18.265 --> 00:25:18.445
Yeah,

488
00:25:20.126 --> 00:25:26.248
so then we firstly grew into tea and built this whole manufacturing plant for drying,

489
00:25:26.408 --> 00:25:27.829
crushing and packaging.

490
00:25:27.969 --> 00:25:29.910
And so there was no...

491
00:25:32.251 --> 00:25:32.371
Yeah,

492
00:25:32.371 --> 00:25:33.592
so what you see like in...

493
00:25:34.472 --> 00:25:49.923
yeah also in netherlands but i think everywhere in the world like you have uh maybe small herb dryers for consumers at home or super big scale mono land uh herb dries but in between there was nothing so we had to create like this whole um yeah

494
00:25:49.983 --> 00:26:02.192
production facilities to dry so yeah we we don't want to dry super big batches of herbs because then you'll end up in monoland again so we we need to develop dryers that could

495
00:26:02.852 --> 00:26:03.072
Yes,

496
00:26:03.192 --> 00:26:06.095
on a professional and some scale dry herbs,

497
00:26:06.415 --> 00:26:08.077
but not too big and not too small.

498
00:26:09.518 --> 00:26:10.038
And also,

499
00:26:10.479 --> 00:26:16.564
how do you process a dried nettle or a dried chamomile?

500
00:26:16.664 --> 00:26:19.226
You need to cut it and sieve it and whatever.

501
00:26:19.586 --> 00:26:22.329
So that's what we also learned along the way.

502
00:26:22.489 --> 00:26:30.656
And now we created a processing facility so we can process like from plants to herbs.

503
00:26:31.676 --> 00:26:32.737
So we had to figure that out.

504
00:26:33.877 --> 00:26:34.918
It was always in the beginning,

505
00:26:34.918 --> 00:26:35.198
we were like,

506
00:26:35.398 --> 00:26:35.538
yeah,

507
00:26:35.798 --> 00:26:36.218
it's easy,

508
00:26:36.939 --> 00:26:38.419
dry a plant and you have tea.

509
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.221
And it's a bit more complicated than that,

510
00:26:42.341 --> 00:26:44.002
but still it's simple.

511
00:26:44.662 --> 00:26:44.962
But yeah,

512
00:26:45.042 --> 00:26:48.444
so demand grew and our production grew.

513
00:26:50.545 --> 00:26:56.628
And it was always the ambition from the start that we want to go to more products.

514
00:26:57.748 --> 00:26:58.849
And then from tea,

515
00:26:59.689 --> 00:27:00.930
we went into iced tea.

516
00:27:01.210 --> 00:27:01.991
And from tea,

517
00:27:02.031 --> 00:27:03.732
you can ferment the tea.

518
00:27:03.872 --> 00:27:04.533
It's kombucha.

519
00:27:05.173 --> 00:27:07.755
So we expanded our product portfolio.

520
00:27:08.135 --> 00:27:08.856
So now we have tea,

521
00:27:09.116 --> 00:27:09.436
iced tea,

522
00:27:10.276 --> 00:27:10.757
kombucha,

523
00:27:11.417 --> 00:27:12.478
syrup or cordial,

524
00:27:13.138 --> 00:27:13.519
pasta,

525
00:27:13.659 --> 00:27:14.279
granola,

526
00:27:15.340 --> 00:27:18.042
even miso and soy sauce,

527
00:27:18.142 --> 00:27:20.203
but then made of buckwheat.

528
00:27:21.804 --> 00:27:21.924
Yeah,

529
00:27:21.964 --> 00:27:24.786
so we've expanded our product portfolio.

530
00:27:25.187 --> 00:27:27.208
And also the cool thing was that...

531
00:27:27.528 --> 00:27:28.349
When we started,

532
00:27:28.409 --> 00:27:29.329
we had no clue.

533
00:27:29.529 --> 00:27:29.930
We thought,

534
00:27:31.351 --> 00:27:37.095
let's create markets for biodiversity boosting products and ways of farming.

535
00:27:37.655 --> 00:27:41.297
And tea was the first product we bumped into.

536
00:27:41.878 --> 00:27:45.660
But then we evolved and learned more about these plants.

537
00:27:46.081 --> 00:27:46.701
And then we thought,

538
00:27:46.821 --> 00:27:47.061
wow,

539
00:27:47.662 --> 00:27:52.085
almost 95% or most of the native plants are edible.

540
00:27:52.405 --> 00:27:52.585
Yes,

541
00:27:52.665 --> 00:27:54.987
there are some which you should not eat.

542
00:27:55.107 --> 00:27:55.787
They are poisonous.

543
00:27:56.267 --> 00:27:56.408
But...

544
00:27:57.276 --> 00:28:16.804
but most of them are edible and and they're not per se tasty in itself but there are different ways of making them tasty so for instance the birch leaf it's not super super tasty but smoked birch leaf oh wow and we smoke it with the bark of the birch and and

545
00:28:16.884 --> 00:28:26.528
so um you need to be a bit more creative but then we figured like wow there's like this whole world of products that can be made from from native

546
00:28:26.628 --> 00:28:41.456
plants and also a nice thing is that and we we talked to a chef he's uh diego prado he's from the alchemist uh in in copenhagen he's like top notch chef and he said a lot of products are a process

547
00:28:42.650 --> 00:28:43.270
So he said,

548
00:28:43.571 --> 00:28:46.693
you can make soy sauce from bread.

549
00:28:47.413 --> 00:28:51.356
Because the process of making soy sauce is that you need protein.

550
00:28:51.716 --> 00:28:57.540
And this protein can be converted by this koji into umami.

551
00:28:59.141 --> 00:29:00.262
And in Asia,

552
00:29:00.382 --> 00:29:04.805
they use soy for that because that's a great protein carrier.

553
00:29:05.065 --> 00:29:11.870
But there are way more protein carriers that you can throw into this process of making soy sauce.

554
00:29:13.919 --> 00:29:15.119
And also he said for tea.

555
00:29:15.260 --> 00:29:16.420
So yes,

556
00:29:17.301 --> 00:29:18.001
the English,

557
00:29:18.721 --> 00:29:21.403
they made us drink tea from the Camellia sinensis,

558
00:29:21.463 --> 00:29:22.764
which is the tea plant.

559
00:29:23.044 --> 00:29:29.627
But there are a lot of other plants you can throw into this process of making tea and get a similar output.

560
00:29:30.568 --> 00:29:33.430
And then we found out that there in the Netherlands,

561
00:29:33.550 --> 00:29:36.351
you have fireweed or wilgeroosje in Dutch,

562
00:29:36.391 --> 00:29:37.032
but fireweed,

563
00:29:37.752 --> 00:29:38.913
which is a weed.

564
00:29:39.933 --> 00:29:41.194
But it tastes like tea.

565
00:29:42.158 --> 00:29:44.660
If you dry it and it really tastes like tea,

566
00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:46.962
if you even put it to this same process.

567
00:29:48.103 --> 00:29:50.325
And that was a real eye opener for us then.

568
00:29:50.785 --> 00:29:51.766
And it was like,

569
00:29:51.826 --> 00:29:51.966
oh,

570
00:29:52.086 --> 00:29:52.367
yes,

571
00:29:52.527 --> 00:29:54.489
a lot of products are a process.

572
00:29:54.929 --> 00:30:00.313
And so now we make soy sauce with buckwheat because we said like,

573
00:30:00.313 --> 00:30:00.434
OK,

574
00:30:00.554 --> 00:30:02.375
if we want to make a garum or miso,

575
00:30:03.476 --> 00:30:07.479
but then look for plants that are logical to our ecosystem,

576
00:30:07.580 --> 00:30:10.282
to our environment.

577
00:30:10.918 --> 00:30:11.639
And then we found out,

578
00:30:11.659 --> 00:30:11.819
yeah,

579
00:30:11.819 --> 00:30:16.262
then buckwheat is a really nice protein carrier that really fits this landscape.

580
00:30:16.523 --> 00:30:18.484
And even hazelnut or nuts,

581
00:30:18.725 --> 00:30:20.126
they are full of protein.

582
00:30:20.406 --> 00:30:20.746
And yes,

583
00:30:20.826 --> 00:30:25.210
if you throw them into this koji process or the soy or garum making process,

584
00:30:25.530 --> 00:30:27.292
you get the umami flavor out.

585
00:30:28.192 --> 00:30:31.895
And that's the same thing with tea and a lot of other products.

586
00:30:32.776 --> 00:30:33.317
So therefore,

587
00:30:33.317 --> 00:30:36.499
it's really that was really eye opening to us like,

588
00:30:36.619 --> 00:30:36.820
oh,

589
00:30:36.820 --> 00:30:37.140
wow.

590
00:30:37.500 --> 00:30:39.622
So the possibilities are endless.

591
00:30:39.862 --> 00:30:40.903
So you can ferment them,

592
00:30:41.003 --> 00:30:41.543
smoke them,

593
00:30:42.224 --> 00:30:43.025
koji ferment.

594
00:30:43.045 --> 00:30:57.397
So there's this whole evolving toolbox of ways of creating way more flavor out of something which isn't super tasty at the plant.

595
00:30:57.737 --> 00:30:58.478
Super exciting.

596
00:30:58.838 --> 00:30:58.958
Yeah,

597
00:30:59.038 --> 00:30:59.378
super exciting.

598
00:30:59.378 --> 00:31:03.322
The possibility and the fact that you're starting from what we...

599
00:31:03.722 --> 00:31:23.259
consider it to be weeds yes and then you turn them into gold basically into like amazing products that can be used for cooking even by chefs yeah nice very nice um i really hope you're enjoying this conversation so far i'm just taking a really short break to tell you about the official partner of the podcast soil capital so

600
00:31:23.239 --> 00:31:31.666
the soil capital is a company that supports the transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve the health of their soils you

601
00:31:31.786 --> 00:31:32.727
A really cool company.

602
00:31:33.107 --> 00:31:37.249
I recommend checking out what they're doing on LinkedIn or via their website.

603
00:31:37.289 --> 00:31:39.710
I'll put the links in the description of this episode.

604
00:31:40.171 --> 00:31:41.051
But in the meantime,

605
00:31:41.671 --> 00:31:43.032
let's get back to the conversation.

606
00:31:46.214 --> 00:31:49.336
I would love to retrace the whole chain in quite a lot of detail.

607
00:31:49.496 --> 00:31:51.056
I really want to get to the bottom of things.

608
00:31:51.097 --> 00:31:52.577
Like now we have the full picture.

609
00:31:52.817 --> 00:31:52.938
Yeah.

610
00:31:54.178 --> 00:31:55.899
And so maybe we should start with,

611
00:31:56.119 --> 00:31:56.259
well,

612
00:31:56.259 --> 00:31:56.780
the farmers.

613
00:31:57.480 --> 00:31:57.600
Yeah.

614
00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:01.062
So how does growing these kind of...

615
00:32:01.442 --> 00:32:16.667
weeds or native plants native plants is probably a nicer way to refer to them right yeah um how how does it fit into the farming system what's the the benefits and the difficulties for farmers to grow these plants yeah so good

616
00:32:16.667 --> 00:32:23.570
to say is that that we work with um with all kind of different farmers so we we work with farmers that are

617
00:32:24.990 --> 00:32:40.675
fully in monoland and monoculture but also we work with these regenerative agriculture pioneers that already start with agroforestry and all the way like in a picture that we we all think like wow this is this this is great um and

618
00:32:40.735 --> 00:32:50.218
we wanna so our model actually is also based like we want to work with everybody so we want to make this first step of of going to a wilder land or

619
00:32:50.558 --> 00:32:51.979
going into regenerative agriculture,

620
00:32:52.239 --> 00:32:54.140
we want to make that step really easy.

621
00:32:54.600 --> 00:32:55.040
So we say,

622
00:32:55.420 --> 00:32:55.620
okay,

623
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:56.961
let's start with one strip.

624
00:32:57.761 --> 00:32:59.162
So if you want to work with us,

625
00:32:59.562 --> 00:33:00.762
we could start,

626
00:33:00.902 --> 00:33:02.943
let's put one strip of weeds.

627
00:33:03.083 --> 00:33:04.004
Even in the beginning,

628
00:33:04.004 --> 00:33:04.704
we could also say,

629
00:33:05.064 --> 00:33:09.026
let's start with a strip of completely mixed herbs,

630
00:33:10.146 --> 00:33:11.467
just to see what grows,

631
00:33:11.527 --> 00:33:12.067
what works.

632
00:33:12.527 --> 00:33:13.648
Because in the beginning,

633
00:33:13.648 --> 00:33:14.688
we thought it's super easy.

634
00:33:14.808 --> 00:33:18.230
You sow in these weeds and then they come up and you harvest.

635
00:33:18.310 --> 00:33:18.430
But

636
00:33:19.010 --> 00:33:23.832
it's not always sowing and a few months later you have the plant that you sowed.

637
00:33:24.433 --> 00:33:27.934
You mean that depending on the exact place,

638
00:33:27.934 --> 00:33:28.955
the weather,

639
00:33:28.955 --> 00:33:32.557
the soil quality and all of that,

640
00:33:33.197 --> 00:33:36.839
some native plants will grow naturally some months.

641
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:41.521
And so what you often start with a strip of mixed ones so you can really see what works here.

642
00:33:41.861 --> 00:33:43.242
And also we ask to farmers like

643
00:33:43.502 --> 00:33:59.789
what kind of weeds are like annoying you so what what are the plants that that grow by themselves already because a lot of yeah camomiles so for me it was like how can chamomile be a weed but yes ask a lot of farms came out is a big weed then we said oh if

644
00:33:59.829 --> 00:34:12.154
camomile works here then let's let's see if we can um start uh turning them into a crop and and so the first step for us is let's start strip cropping um

645
00:34:13.474 --> 00:34:15.555
with the plants that fit your local area.

646
00:34:16.336 --> 00:34:19.017
So we have this whole list of different plants and we say like,

647
00:34:19.037 --> 00:34:19.217
okay,

648
00:34:19.357 --> 00:34:22.059
we need this.

649
00:34:22.919 --> 00:34:27.902
So our forecast is that we need this amount of kilo of that plant this year.

650
00:34:29.483 --> 00:34:29.783
And so,

651
00:34:29.883 --> 00:34:30.123
yes,

652
00:34:30.203 --> 00:34:33.885
we say we want it in strips and no pesticides,

653
00:34:33.985 --> 00:34:38.147
no fertilizers and whatever because they grow like weeds.

654
00:34:38.247 --> 00:34:39.188
That's also the cool thing.

655
00:34:39.868 --> 00:34:40.829
If they start growing,

656
00:34:40.849 --> 00:34:41.289
then they'll...

657
00:34:42.041 --> 00:34:59.052
they'll they'll grow yeah i have a couple questions at this stage um first of all when you when if you start with a mix of native plants as a test yeah um is it just for the tests or are you still going to harvest them and yeah they'll do something from it yes some flowers um

658
00:35:00.013 --> 00:35:11.581
they can grow in these mixed strips and then some of these flowers are are even harvested by hands and then we even invite our customers like do you want to help uh with the the flower

659
00:35:11.901 --> 00:35:28.488
harvest and then it works really well to have them in strips uh but if we go into more production then we'll convert to like a strip cropping with one strip of chamomile and one strip of gooseberries one strip of uh

660
00:35:28.488 --> 00:35:39.013
yarrow and okay because then there so that's that's all also the hard part like balancing economy and ecology that's so yes it's still agriculture

661
00:35:39.393 --> 00:35:58.621
so we believe in this this like agroforestry system where you have all these these lanes with trees bushes uh herbs and so they're still manageable and still harvestable in a in some sort of efficient way uh not as efficient as a monoculture but still it's

662
00:35:58.701 --> 00:36:07.125
it's still farming um but so biodiversity really benefits from it okay um yeah so we

663
00:36:08.473 --> 00:36:11.756
We could start with a mixed strip,

664
00:36:11.916 --> 00:36:14.619
but what we see is that a lot of farmers already like,

665
00:36:14.659 --> 00:36:19.344
oh let's do two or three or four strips of different herbs.

666
00:36:19.344 --> 00:36:21.446
They're already ready to try some things.

667
00:36:21.446 --> 00:36:23.348
They actually know that this kind of weeds,

668
00:36:23.388 --> 00:36:24.569
they grow here.

669
00:36:24.809 --> 00:36:25.710
And they also like,

670
00:36:25.910 --> 00:36:26.791
they like that you're like,

671
00:36:27.372 --> 00:36:28.213
I'm a good farmer,

672
00:36:28.973 --> 00:36:29.614
we can grow,

673
00:36:29.774 --> 00:36:30.315
we can do this.

674
00:36:30.315 --> 00:36:30.395
Okay,

675
00:36:30.395 --> 00:36:30.655
fair enough.

676
00:36:30.775 --> 00:36:31.916
That's fair enough,

677
00:36:31.936 --> 00:36:32.216
let's go.

678
00:36:33.698 --> 00:36:40.182
And along the way is that we figured that some herbs are really easy and some are a bit more difficult.

679
00:36:41.183 --> 00:36:46.846
But this challenge of like taming these wildflowers into a farming system,

680
00:36:46.947 --> 00:36:49.148
that's also what a lot of farmers really like.

681
00:36:51.369 --> 00:36:54.452
And the cool thing is that most of them are perennials.

682
00:36:55.572 --> 00:36:56.933
And so in the first year,

683
00:36:56.993 --> 00:36:57.974
it takes a bit of more,

684
00:36:58.574 --> 00:37:01.096
some more effort to establish them on land.

685
00:37:01.516 --> 00:37:02.357
But after that day...

686
00:37:02.597 --> 00:37:18.742
grow and and like the production so for most of them you just kind of harvest the top yeah and then you let let it grow back yeah yeah and it usually grows back what the next season the next year or something no in a few weeks yeah a few weeks yeah yeah they're weeks they don't want to grow they want to uh so

687
00:37:18.822 --> 00:37:28.865
that's that's a really nice so once they're they're established then uh most of them you can harvest three four or five times even a year okay um yeah

688
00:37:29.601 --> 00:37:32.303
How does that fit into different farming systems?

689
00:37:32.383 --> 00:37:35.725
You said that sometimes working with bigger farms to do,

690
00:37:35.965 --> 00:37:37.826
who are like you call it monoland.

691
00:37:37.926 --> 00:37:38.066
Yeah.

692
00:37:38.646 --> 00:37:45.110
And so how do they approach adding smaller strips of native plants to their system?

693
00:37:46.771 --> 00:37:46.951
Yeah,

694
00:37:47.011 --> 00:37:52.754
so they like most what we figure is that most of the time they have like these plots or they have like somewhere,

695
00:37:52.814 --> 00:37:52.934
oh,

696
00:37:54.135 --> 00:37:58.417
we could do it there or we have this border or we have this area which isn't.

697
00:37:59.021 --> 00:38:00.322
going really well last year,

698
00:38:00.382 --> 00:38:03.864
but maybe we'll try something new over there.

699
00:38:05.244 --> 00:38:05.645
And actually,

700
00:38:05.665 --> 00:38:08.206
a lot of farmers like it that they can start small,

701
00:38:08.486 --> 00:38:09.787
because by starting small,

702
00:38:10.127 --> 00:38:13.549
it's really manageable and easy for everybody to see,

703
00:38:13.969 --> 00:38:14.610
does it work?

704
00:38:14.670 --> 00:38:15.250
How does it work?

705
00:38:15.310 --> 00:38:15.930
Does it fit me?

706
00:38:18.332 --> 00:38:19.572
And so our model is based on,

707
00:38:19.732 --> 00:38:19.873
yeah,

708
00:38:19.913 --> 00:38:20.873
let's start small somewhere,

709
00:38:20.913 --> 00:38:24.335
maybe 1000 square meters is already good.

710
00:38:24.835 --> 00:38:25.656
And then from there,

711
00:38:25.676 --> 00:38:26.816
we can every year like,

712
00:38:26.836 --> 00:38:26.956
oh,

713
00:38:26.936 --> 00:38:27.797
do you want to do more?

714
00:38:28.213 --> 00:38:29.074
Does it work for you?

715
00:38:29.414 --> 00:38:30.615
What is your experience with it?

716
00:38:31.015 --> 00:38:34.038
And what we see is that a lot of farmers,

717
00:38:34.038 --> 00:38:38.322
they really love it because they see more insects coming to their land.

718
00:38:38.922 --> 00:38:48.250
And so it's also a very positive story for them as well because also their product or produce is not going into this anonymous,

719
00:38:49.050 --> 00:38:50.332
globalized chain.

720
00:38:50.732 --> 00:38:50.852
No,

721
00:38:51.092 --> 00:38:51.212
yeah,

722
00:38:52.093 --> 00:38:53.134
so we're making tea.

723
00:38:53.734 --> 00:38:55.736
So it's really local and really close.

724
00:38:55.816 --> 00:38:56.637
So they...

725
00:38:56.977 --> 00:39:26.597
are even proud of it that like yeah i see it being sold and i hear people talking about it and and and we can maybe say like go visit the farm to see it yourself to our consumers it's reconnecting them a little bit to the end consumers there's really this disconnection where yes farmers produce massive amounts of something it's anonymous it goes to different processing and then no idea between the farmer and the consumer there's absolutely no link left yes and it's it's problematic for the consumer who doesn't feel connected to where his food comes from and he's

726
00:39:26.817 --> 00:39:47.234
also problematic for the farmer who doesn't feel the reward of a connection to the people who consume their product yeah so therefore that was really nice to see that it's so it's also it feels good for a lot of farmers themselves as well nice uh and they said i want to sell it in my farm shop and i have all these nice stories about it uh so

727
00:39:47.314 --> 00:39:54.981
yeah so the the thing is yeah let's start small and see from there uh what we can do uh and so we start with herbs but

728
00:39:55.181 --> 00:40:04.773
yes for our granola we even have nuts and we and we have and we we use uh gooseberry and blackberry uh in in other so then

729
00:40:05.273 --> 00:40:20.261
we there's also demand for bushes and so step by step we're converting them into like oh let's integrate more trees and uh and bushes on your land as well i love i love that this is sort of the the gateway drug system right proposing

730
00:40:20.321 --> 00:40:34.129
something harmless easy yeah um and um and then maybe that gives them a taste for actually this is really fun to do i'm making good money from it it's bringing biodiversity back which is benefiting my system as a whole yeah let's do a bit more of this and yes

731
00:40:34.529 --> 00:41:01.173
bring them in like yeah but because of positivity with positivity instead of uh watch these movies and this is regenerative agriculture and you need to work on that way and then like yeah uh how on earth or um and by doing it step by step that works really well and our experience that most farmers they want to do more they were like okay can i do more and and what else can we do so that is super nice to to to experience just a quick

732
00:41:01.353 --> 00:41:28.772
quick question does it require any machinery or anything different that they already own and use so also in our model is we say like okay if we need to harvest the herbs or whatever you you can pay this if you harvest yourself and bring it to us you can pay this and if you harvest yourself and dry it yourself you get paid this so we so in our model we try to stimulate

733
00:41:28.772 --> 00:41:30.113
the farmers to do as much

734
00:41:30.393 --> 00:41:31.854
on their own land as possible.

735
00:41:32.614 --> 00:41:33.215
Because for us,

736
00:41:33.615 --> 00:41:39.958
it's really nice to get all the dried plants at the end of summer and that farmers dry it themselves.

737
00:41:40.779 --> 00:41:41.239
So now,

738
00:41:41.579 --> 00:41:48.923
but most farmers don't have dryers and they don't have harvesting machines for like this scale.

739
00:41:49.083 --> 00:41:51.465
But by putting this incentive in the price,

740
00:41:51.805 --> 00:41:53.446
what we see is that all these farmers are like,

741
00:41:53.486 --> 00:41:53.886
oh yeah,

742
00:41:54.006 --> 00:41:57.708
I created this harvest machine and we started building a dryer.

743
00:41:59.069 --> 00:41:59.249
Okay,

744
00:41:59.949 --> 00:42:03.791
so the first year maybe you will come and harvest it and process it and then the farmer will see,

745
00:42:03.871 --> 00:42:04.011
well,

746
00:42:04.031 --> 00:42:06.212
actually I can get more money if I'm doing this myself.

747
00:42:06.432 --> 00:42:06.612
Yes,

748
00:42:06.632 --> 00:42:07.093
and oh,

749
00:42:07.113 --> 00:42:08.273
we have this old machine,

750
00:42:08.313 --> 00:42:09.114
which is nice.

751
00:42:09.114 --> 00:42:09.254
Yeah,

752
00:42:09.794 --> 00:42:10.914
we can manufacture it.

753
00:42:11.094 --> 00:42:11.515
Nice,

754
00:42:11.555 --> 00:42:11.855
nice,

755
00:42:11.895 --> 00:42:12.395
nice.

756
00:42:12.595 --> 00:42:15.696
And some even said,

757
00:42:15.796 --> 00:42:15.977
okay,

758
00:42:16.137 --> 00:42:22.379
I'll invest in this small harvester because after two years we see like this is the revenue coming from it.

759
00:42:22.419 --> 00:42:23.100
And yeah,

760
00:42:23.560 --> 00:42:25.081
we could easily do more.

761
00:42:25.441 --> 00:42:25.781
And then...

762
00:42:26.021 --> 00:42:44.769
yeah it's it's reasonable to to invest in the small harvester it's amazing how resourceful and creative farmers can get if you give them the right incentive right farmers are the best because they're super creative super resourceful they're they're they're really open for new things but yeah they need to make money so they're and

763
00:42:44.889 --> 00:42:53.333
and if you create their if you put the incentive right then then they're really open to work uh uh towards that goal you

764
00:42:53.529 --> 00:43:13.368
which and then yeah so i love it too to like all these farmers have their different stores so they're they're no farmer is the same and and also working with us some do it yeah they created their own harvester and their own dryer some say oh no my i i borrow it from my neighbor and i bring it to you and for now so it's

765
00:43:13.428 --> 00:43:18.753
it's super and and so when you approach a farmer you say okay you know i would like you to

766
00:43:19.877 --> 00:43:22.678
grow 100 kilos of chamomile for example.

767
00:43:23.759 --> 00:43:24.519
What's the deal like?

768
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:27.981
Do you sort of put in an order for a specific price?

769
00:43:28.481 --> 00:43:29.881
Do they pay for the seeds?

770
00:43:30.061 --> 00:43:30.742
What's the sort of...

771
00:43:30.742 --> 00:43:35.284
So what we...

772
00:43:35.504 --> 00:43:37.044
Actually for the mixed strip,

773
00:43:38.105 --> 00:43:39.225
the first baby step,

774
00:43:39.225 --> 00:43:39.725
we say like,

775
00:43:40.166 --> 00:43:42.707
we give you the seeds and we'll pay you for the land,

776
00:43:42.847 --> 00:43:45.948
just as a starter to see if you like it.

777
00:43:46.628 --> 00:43:48.089
If we go into the production,

778
00:43:48.909 --> 00:43:49.650
Then we say like,

779
00:43:49.710 --> 00:43:49.970
okay,

780
00:43:50.210 --> 00:43:50.511
yes,

781
00:43:50.671 --> 00:43:51.511
in the beginning of the year,

782
00:43:51.531 --> 00:43:52.512
we make the forecast.

783
00:43:52.512 --> 00:43:53.053
We say like,

784
00:43:53.093 --> 00:43:53.273
okay,

785
00:43:53.333 --> 00:43:55.595
this year we need 500 kilos of chamomile.

786
00:43:56.035 --> 00:43:57.817
Can you do 100 kilos for us?

787
00:43:57.957 --> 00:43:58.658
That's also the thing.

788
00:43:58.658 --> 00:44:00.680
We don't want one farmer to do everything.

789
00:44:01.200 --> 00:44:04.163
We want more farmers doing a bit than one farmer doing everything.

790
00:44:04.303 --> 00:44:06.445
Because if we would make Dutch herbal tea,

791
00:44:06.445 --> 00:44:07.285
it's really easy.

792
00:44:07.606 --> 00:44:11.469
Go to one farmer and have monoculture of chamomile.

793
00:44:12.010 --> 00:44:14.792
But we want to create diversity.

794
00:44:15.753 --> 00:44:16.453
So then we say like,

795
00:44:16.473 --> 00:44:16.713
okay,

796
00:44:16.773 --> 00:44:19.074
can you do 100 kilos of chamomile for us?

797
00:44:19.674 --> 00:44:23.676
And by experience now we know that you need around this,

798
00:44:24.936 --> 00:44:27.337
so like 500,000 square meters,

799
00:44:27.737 --> 00:44:30.498
and then you can harvest maybe three or four times a year.

800
00:44:30.998 --> 00:44:32.959
And so with these square meters,

801
00:44:32.959 --> 00:44:34.859
you can expect 100 kilos.

802
00:44:36.680 --> 00:44:40.421
And we will pay this per kilo.

803
00:44:42.062 --> 00:44:44.024
So if you get to the 100 kilo,

804
00:44:44.404 --> 00:44:46.866
we guarantee you this revenue.

805
00:44:47.367 --> 00:44:48.648
So it's a fixed price.

806
00:44:50.745 --> 00:44:52.866
And then it's up to the farmer.

807
00:44:53.026 --> 00:44:54.447
And so if in this model,

808
00:44:54.487 --> 00:45:00.690
then the farmer needs to buy the seeds himself or herself and grow it.

809
00:45:01.091 --> 00:45:01.611
And that's also,

810
00:45:01.731 --> 00:45:02.031
therefore,

811
00:45:02.071 --> 00:45:05.813
there's a bit of risk at the farmer's side because if it won't grow yet,

812
00:45:05.873 --> 00:45:09.535
then we cannot pay for the chamomile.

813
00:45:10.056 --> 00:45:11.236
But if it grows,

814
00:45:11.256 --> 00:45:11.596
then yeah,

815
00:45:12.097 --> 00:45:15.038
we'll guarantee you this revenue for...

816
00:45:15.939 --> 00:45:16.519
And of course,

817
00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:19.661
there are some that it needs to be right quality and it needs to be...

818
00:45:20.601 --> 00:45:26.084
no pesticides and so we even do tests so that we want it to be pesticide free.

819
00:45:26.684 --> 00:45:34.167
How does that work when you have a more conventional farmer who's using chemicals on his fields and he's just adding a strip next to it?

820
00:45:34.647 --> 00:45:37.529
How do you ensure that this strip is pesticide free for example?

821
00:45:37.609 --> 00:45:47.733
Yeah so we want it to be pesticide free and otherwise we'll yeah we cannot we cannot take it from you but in the practice it's going really well.

822
00:45:48.097 --> 00:45:50.919
So we do these tests on the fields where the herbs come from.

823
00:45:51.339 --> 00:46:01.464
And we have found no chemicals whatsoever in strips that are in the middle of conventional farms.

824
00:46:02.305 --> 00:46:06.687
And we have found pesticides even on an organic farm.

825
00:46:06.887 --> 00:46:09.429
The crops were grown in the middle of it.

826
00:46:09.849 --> 00:46:14.371
And there was a super small residue still found.

827
00:46:14.992 --> 00:46:17.173
So it's really weird how does that work.

828
00:46:17.649 --> 00:46:18.689
But so yeah,

829
00:46:18.870 --> 00:46:20.130
they're pesticide free,

830
00:46:21.671 --> 00:46:24.592
even though sometimes they're grown on conventional fields.

831
00:46:25.072 --> 00:46:25.832
And what we've,

832
00:46:26.113 --> 00:46:29.114
a lot of farmers are really conscious about that as well.

833
00:46:29.534 --> 00:46:30.514
So they know,

834
00:46:30.574 --> 00:46:30.694
yeah,

835
00:46:31.095 --> 00:46:39.698
we won't spray in the next field if we'll harvest the herbs in weeks from there.

836
00:46:40.799 --> 00:46:40.979
Okay,

837
00:46:41.059 --> 00:46:41.339
awesome.

838
00:46:41.359 --> 00:46:45.181
So we kind of covered the farmer side of things.

839
00:46:45.281 --> 00:46:45.401
Yeah.

840
00:46:45.621 --> 00:46:46.281
I guess.

841
00:46:46.461 --> 00:46:53.043
So next thing you do is either harvest it yourself or collect it already harvested.

842
00:46:53.263 --> 00:46:53.623
Yeah.

843
00:46:53.623 --> 00:46:55.003
And then process the processing.

844
00:46:55.123 --> 00:46:56.604
I'm interested in the next.

845
00:46:56.844 --> 00:46:57.764
So the processing.

846
00:46:58.644 --> 00:47:00.125
So that was also an important thing.

847
00:47:00.125 --> 00:47:03.546
So when we said we want to become this regenerative Unilever,

848
00:47:04.786 --> 00:47:07.987
we believe that fresh produce or vegetables,

849
00:47:08.067 --> 00:47:10.588
a farmer needs to sell them or especially regenerative farm,

850
00:47:10.768 --> 00:47:13.188
sell them as direct as possible to any consumer.

851
00:47:13.869 --> 00:47:14.369
And we thought.

852
00:47:15.577 --> 00:47:16.417
We as wilderland,

853
00:47:16.477 --> 00:47:23.859
we can become of really added value if we can do some sort of processing to like weeds or whatever,

854
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:25.940
and then make them more valuable.

855
00:47:26.500 --> 00:47:26.880
So yeah,

856
00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:27.820
we're always interesting,

857
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:28.041
like,

858
00:47:28.161 --> 00:47:28.361
okay,

859
00:47:28.461 --> 00:47:32.702
how can we do some sort of processing and by processing it at value?

860
00:47:33.122 --> 00:47:33.502
Because,

861
00:47:34.702 --> 00:47:34.822
yeah,

862
00:47:34.922 --> 00:47:37.103
weeds on the land are worthless.

863
00:47:37.903 --> 00:47:44.045
A dried plant is already a bit more of value because you can store it for four years.

864
00:47:44.761 --> 00:47:53.006
And a dried plant crushed and sieved and nicely cut into tea leaves is even more valuable.

865
00:47:53.046 --> 00:47:57.389
And even these tea leaves packaged in a nice branded packaging,

866
00:47:58.209 --> 00:48:00.050
that's of super high value.

867
00:48:00.871 --> 00:48:02.271
And that's super interesting,

868
00:48:02.452 --> 00:48:04.713
but it's still dandelion.

869
00:48:04.893 --> 00:48:07.375
So then the lion on the field was worthless.

870
00:48:07.455 --> 00:48:12.038
And then the lion in a wilderland teabag is suddenly worth something.

871
00:48:12.458 --> 00:48:14.380
And that's super interesting to see like,

872
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:14.600
okay,

873
00:48:15.240 --> 00:48:16.221
by processing,

874
00:48:16.621 --> 00:48:17.722
you can add value.

875
00:48:18.062 --> 00:48:19.583
And that's what we figured like,

876
00:48:19.643 --> 00:48:20.183
if we can,

877
00:48:20.684 --> 00:48:20.864
like,

878
00:48:20.924 --> 00:48:24.827
how can we add as much value to these worthless things?

879
00:48:25.747 --> 00:48:27.588
So the first step is after harvest,

880
00:48:27.829 --> 00:48:29.029
a farmer harvested it,

881
00:48:29.530 --> 00:48:31.851
then it needs to be dried on the same day.

882
00:48:32.252 --> 00:48:33.973
Because then the quality stays.

883
00:48:34.513 --> 00:48:51.319
is the best so either they dry it in a dryer they made themselves or they they have in their local area or they bring it to us and then we dry it here in amsterdam and then in yeah 30 to 48 hours the plants are completely dried um

884
00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:57.281
and then what i said then they can be stored for years which is really nice um

885
00:48:57.721 --> 00:48:58.241
And then,

886
00:48:58.622 --> 00:48:59.883
so then we have the dried plants.

887
00:48:59.943 --> 00:49:02.304
Then we put them in our like a tea processing,

888
00:49:02.344 --> 00:49:03.465
our small tea factory.

889
00:49:05.346 --> 00:49:09.809
And then we cut them into these nice tea leaves.

890
00:49:10.890 --> 00:49:11.931
And then from there,

891
00:49:12.571 --> 00:49:14.693
we'll mix them into the different blends.

892
00:49:15.705 --> 00:49:19.608
So we have these recipes for all our tea blends.

893
00:49:20.028 --> 00:49:20.609
And then like,

894
00:49:20.689 --> 00:49:20.909
okay,

895
00:49:21.249 --> 00:49:22.210
for this tea blend,

896
00:49:22.210 --> 00:49:26.553
we need so much meadow sweet and so much birch leaf and so much.

897
00:49:26.673 --> 00:49:27.433
You do that manually.

898
00:49:27.854 --> 00:49:31.396
You kind of put together the right amount of the different herbs.

899
00:49:31.556 --> 00:49:31.856
Yes.

900
00:49:34.478 --> 00:49:35.479
And then we have a blend.

901
00:49:35.539 --> 00:49:36.800
And then maybe sometimes we say,

902
00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:37.100
okay,

903
00:49:37.240 --> 00:49:38.961
from this blend of Holy Smoky,

904
00:49:39.682 --> 00:49:43.384
we'll send it to the kombucha maker and he makes Holy Smoky part two,

905
00:49:43.585 --> 00:49:44.045
which is our.

906
00:49:44.225 --> 00:49:45.247
holy smoky kombucha.

907
00:49:47.171 --> 00:49:47.411
Yeah,

908
00:49:47.491 --> 00:49:50.217
so we collect all the herbs,

909
00:49:50.557 --> 00:49:51.800
preferably dried ones.

910
00:49:52.624 --> 00:49:53.785
And then from there,

911
00:49:53.905 --> 00:49:55.726
see if we turn them into iced tea,

912
00:49:55.986 --> 00:49:56.746
turn them into tea,

913
00:49:56.866 --> 00:49:57.787
turn them into kombucha.

914
00:49:58.087 --> 00:49:59.047
So in terms of processing,

915
00:49:59.067 --> 00:50:01.809
you're taking care of the whole tea making part of the processing.

916
00:50:01.829 --> 00:50:07.112
But you just give me a clue there as to what happens next when you want to make other products like kombucha.

917
00:50:07.212 --> 00:50:08.412
For the tea processing,

918
00:50:08.492 --> 00:50:10.513
we're completely vertically integrated.

919
00:50:10.634 --> 00:50:12.975
So that from farm to tea bag,

920
00:50:13.575 --> 00:50:14.976
we do everything ourselves.

921
00:50:15.468 --> 00:50:31.101
because we invested in the tea factory tea packaging what all these things we we do it ourselves yeah actually yeah i forgot to ask about the packaging you're actually doing that yourself as well yeah so yeah we invested in a tea bagging machine there was no one in the netherlands with the tea bagging machine so first we started because

922
00:50:31.101 --> 00:50:43.712
with loose tea but then we figured it like 95 of percent of demand for tea is in tea bags and then we now we couldn't find anybody in the netherlands that that was still having that could do that

923
00:50:45.096 --> 00:50:47.498
So then we invested in our own teabag machine,

924
00:50:48.578 --> 00:50:49.619
imported from China.

925
00:50:50.179 --> 00:50:50.480
Firstly,

926
00:50:50.620 --> 00:50:52.401
we made them by hand,

927
00:50:53.161 --> 00:50:58.865
just again to test whether people would like teabags more over loose tea.

928
00:50:59.526 --> 00:50:59.846
So yeah,

929
00:50:59.926 --> 00:51:04.389
now we have two teabag machines that are pumping every day and making teabags,

930
00:51:04.429 --> 00:51:05.189
which is really nice.

931
00:51:07.031 --> 00:51:07.911
And the packaging?

932
00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:09.540
Yeah,

933
00:51:10.361 --> 00:51:10.481
what?

934
00:51:10.481 --> 00:51:11.562
Do you make the packaging as well?

935
00:51:11.582 --> 00:51:13.745
The sort of paper packaging around?

936
00:51:13.785 --> 00:51:13.905
Yeah,

937
00:51:13.985 --> 00:51:14.446
so the paper,

938
00:51:14.466 --> 00:51:14.606
yeah,

939
00:51:14.606 --> 00:51:16.027
so that's all done by the machine.

940
00:51:16.908 --> 00:51:17.309
But yes,

941
00:51:17.329 --> 00:51:18.149
of course,

942
00:51:18.250 --> 00:51:22.474
there's a manufacturing party that gives us the printed.

943
00:51:22.494 --> 00:51:22.855
All right,

944
00:51:22.895 --> 00:51:23.575
all right.

945
00:51:24.724 --> 00:51:26.306
And just maybe a quick question about that,

946
00:51:26.366 --> 00:51:32.392
because you mentioned that you wanted every part of the chain and operation to be regenerative,

947
00:51:32.652 --> 00:51:33.653
to be nature positive.

948
00:51:33.693 --> 00:51:34.234
What about the...

949
00:51:34.494 --> 00:51:34.614
Yeah,

950
00:51:34.634 --> 00:51:38.779
so then packaging is also really nice because then we cannot work with plastic.

951
00:51:38.839 --> 00:51:44.004
So all our packaging is biodegradable or compostable,

952
00:51:45.326 --> 00:51:46.807
which even makes it more expensive.

953
00:51:47.972 --> 00:51:48.132
Yeah,

954
00:51:48.132 --> 00:51:48.552
so therefore,

955
00:51:48.612 --> 00:51:50.774
so we're all really conscious about,

956
00:51:50.834 --> 00:51:50.954
yeah,

957
00:51:51.554 --> 00:51:51.774
like,

958
00:51:51.854 --> 00:51:52.074
okay,

959
00:51:52.114 --> 00:51:52.234
yeah,

960
00:51:52.695 --> 00:51:56.297
we cannot work with plastic teabags or plastic envelopes.

961
00:51:56.817 --> 00:51:59.198
So now at the moment we work with PLA,

962
00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:01.940
which is a compostable,

963
00:52:02.580 --> 00:52:04.341
but of course it can be done better,

964
00:52:04.681 --> 00:52:09.104
but we're waiting for the even better alternatives on that.

965
00:52:09.524 --> 00:52:15.147
And we would really love to work with even better packaging.

966
00:52:15.567 --> 00:52:16.348
Could we imagine...

967
00:52:16.948 --> 00:52:20.530
a tea packaging that is made from weed stems and stuff like that.

968
00:52:20.870 --> 00:52:21.090
Yeah,

969
00:52:21.410 --> 00:52:22.590
so a lot can be done,

970
00:52:22.931 --> 00:52:24.931
but then it will become a million dollar product.

971
00:52:25.172 --> 00:52:26.192
It will be very expensive.

972
00:52:26.192 --> 00:52:29.053
You need a lot of skill to be able to start that process.

973
00:52:29.153 --> 00:52:31.494
But there's always this balancing act like,

974
00:52:31.574 --> 00:52:31.914
okay,

975
00:52:34.896 --> 00:52:35.016
yeah,

976
00:52:35.116 --> 00:52:38.077
million dollar product versus something that is workable.

977
00:52:39.918 --> 00:52:41.799
So our packaging is biodegradable,

978
00:52:42.219 --> 00:52:44.420
which already is a first great step.

979
00:52:44.952 --> 00:53:01.038
uh but of course yeah packaging is always a thing so if we can come up with better solutions we would we would do that but then again for loose tea versus tea bags is really because yeah if we would have stayed into only loose tea yeah the market would have been way more smaller then

980
00:53:01.038 --> 00:53:06.920
so that's always in the these are the dilemmas of course like okay but um

981
00:53:07.964 --> 00:53:11.187
a compostable tea bag is already a great step.

982
00:53:11.547 --> 00:53:11.667
Yeah,

983
00:53:11.707 --> 00:53:14.169
I'm pushing you into the detail here.

984
00:53:14.189 --> 00:53:15.090
But it's really interesting.

985
00:53:15.110 --> 00:53:15.831
It's really interesting.

986
00:53:15.831 --> 00:53:15.931
Yeah,

987
00:53:15.911 --> 00:53:16.551
it really matters,

988
00:53:16.591 --> 00:53:17.532
these minor details.

989
00:53:17.612 --> 00:53:21.515
And so also we made cordial or the syrup,

990
00:53:22.336 --> 00:53:24.238
if you put water with it,

991
00:53:24.238 --> 00:53:25.199
you have a nice soft drink,

992
00:53:26.139 --> 00:53:29.702
which is of course better than having drinks in cans.

993
00:53:30.063 --> 00:53:33.365
But we also make iced tea in cans.

994
00:53:33.666 --> 00:53:34.847
We started with loose tea and we said,

995
00:53:34.887 --> 00:53:35.007
oh,

996
00:53:35.047 --> 00:53:36.268
you can make iced tea from it.

997
00:53:36.644 --> 00:53:52.438
nobody's doing it and then if we say like oh yeah we have this nice can of ice tea and then people like oh i love this ice tea give me more uh and then with cans it's yeah there's um is it stasi health in dutch uh the aluminum yeah

998
00:53:52.418 --> 00:53:59.544
the aluminum cans yeah if you if you put it back if you um recycling yeah recycle there's this incentive on on recycling the

999
00:54:00.672 --> 00:54:01.873
I'm more of like a return thing.

1000
00:54:02.353 --> 00:54:04.494
Like a price on the can that if you bring it back,

1001
00:54:04.494 --> 00:54:04.554
you...

1002
00:54:04.554 --> 00:54:04.654
Yeah,

1003
00:54:04.654 --> 00:54:05.314
if you bring it back.

1004
00:54:05.354 --> 00:54:05.994
So then we're like,

1005
00:54:06.034 --> 00:54:06.274
okay,

1006
00:54:08.035 --> 00:54:08.355
for now,

1007
00:54:08.415 --> 00:54:10.796
let's work with that.

1008
00:54:10.996 --> 00:54:11.377
But yes,

1009
00:54:11.397 --> 00:54:11.717
of course,

1010
00:54:11.717 --> 00:54:14.998
you can always be really critical on packaging,

1011
00:54:15.318 --> 00:54:16.019
which we are.

1012
00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:19.920
But it's nice to find something which is workable.

1013
00:54:20.660 --> 00:54:24.242
But we're always trying to be more ambitious on that.

1014
00:54:24.662 --> 00:54:26.083
Regeneration is a process also.

1015
00:54:26.183 --> 00:54:27.703
It's not just a finished thing.

1016
00:54:27.723 --> 00:54:28.924
So obviously you're...

1017
00:54:29.104 --> 00:54:30.065
trying to get there,

1018
00:54:30.105 --> 00:54:33.009
to be more and more regenerative in every aspect of your business.

1019
00:54:33.049 --> 00:54:38.475
But expecting that you could be perfect from day one would be completely unrealistic,

1020
00:54:38.595 --> 00:54:38.815
right?

1021
00:54:38.975 --> 00:54:39.176
Yes,

1022
00:54:39.336 --> 00:54:39.937
that's true.

1023
00:54:40.117 --> 00:54:40.257
Yeah.

1024
00:54:40.377 --> 00:54:40.497
So...

1025
00:54:43.856 --> 00:54:43.976
Yeah,

1026
00:54:44.136 --> 00:54:44.996
and so for the tea,

1027
00:54:45.276 --> 00:54:46.797
we do everything ourselves.

1028
00:54:47.237 --> 00:54:47.597
But we,

1029
00:54:47.977 --> 00:54:49.358
like on every aspect,

1030
00:54:49.418 --> 00:54:49.678
actually,

1031
00:54:49.778 --> 00:54:52.258
we work together with a lot of others.

1032
00:54:52.818 --> 00:54:53.499
So for the tea,

1033
00:54:53.559 --> 00:54:56.099
we work together with a great tea sommelier.

1034
00:54:56.660 --> 00:55:00.101
She's really good in making really nice flavors.

1035
00:55:00.941 --> 00:55:02.141
For the whole processing,

1036
00:55:02.201 --> 00:55:05.522
we work together with a company which is really specialized in processing.

1037
00:55:05.542 --> 00:55:06.322
And then we said like,

1038
00:55:06.342 --> 00:55:06.542
okay,

1039
00:55:07.082 --> 00:55:09.083
how can we create this processing facility,

1040
00:55:09.163 --> 00:55:10.303
which is super small,

1041
00:55:10.603 --> 00:55:11.644
but still professional.

1042
00:55:12.824 --> 00:55:14.965
And so also with all our products,

1043
00:55:14.985 --> 00:55:17.666
we work together with like the best tastemakers,

1044
00:55:18.046 --> 00:55:18.526
so to say.

1045
00:55:18.626 --> 00:55:19.147
Because we said,

1046
00:55:19.167 --> 00:55:19.447
yeah,

1047
00:55:19.467 --> 00:55:25.549
we have these weeds and we like to work with farmers and we like to create more insects and bees and butterflies.

1048
00:55:26.470 --> 00:55:28.210
And we like to sell nice products.

1049
00:55:28.831 --> 00:55:31.732
But can you help us making it super tasty?

1050
00:55:32.352 --> 00:55:32.832
So therefore,

1051
00:55:32.852 --> 00:55:36.614
we're always open for collaborations with people that are like,

1052
00:55:36.614 --> 00:55:36.954
yeah,

1053
00:55:37.634 --> 00:55:39.695
we are the best in making kombucha.

1054
00:55:39.955 --> 00:55:40.435
And it was like,

1055
00:55:40.435 --> 00:55:40.555
OK,

1056
00:55:40.716 --> 00:55:41.576
let's work together.

1057
00:55:41.980 --> 00:55:48.963
And let's see what kind of kombucha comes out if we work together with our requirements and our ingredients.

1058
00:55:50.463 --> 00:55:51.224
So yeah,

1059
00:55:51.244 --> 00:55:52.144
for all these products,

1060
00:55:52.784 --> 00:55:53.825
like all products we have,

1061
00:55:53.885 --> 00:56:02.148
there's a few really good people collaborating with us that could do the production or could help us with the recipes.

1062
00:56:03.284 --> 00:56:03.525
Awesome.

1063
00:56:04.425 --> 00:56:05.046
There was a question

1064
00:56:05.386 --> 00:56:07.808
I maybe forgot to ask about the farming side of things.

1065
00:56:08.369 --> 00:56:10.911
Are there any financial incentives for farmers?

1066
00:56:10.951 --> 00:56:15.054
Because I know sometimes there are subsidies for biodiversity strips,

1067
00:56:15.074 --> 00:56:15.695
for example.

1068
00:56:15.795 --> 00:56:19.418
Is that something that can be combined with growing strips?

1069
00:56:20.059 --> 00:56:20.679
Yeah,

1070
00:56:20.699 --> 00:56:25.503
they often do because there are some subsidy incentives,

1071
00:56:25.904 --> 00:56:27.005
which is really nice.

1072
00:56:27.005 --> 00:56:27.505
And we say,

1073
00:56:27.525 --> 00:56:27.645
yeah,

1074
00:56:27.825 --> 00:56:28.186
do it.

1075
00:56:28.706 --> 00:56:30.848
But we wanted to work.

1076
00:56:31.648 --> 00:56:32.648
without subsidies.

1077
00:56:32.888 --> 00:56:38.470
Because what you often see is with these biodiversity strip subsidies is that as long as the subsidy is there,

1078
00:56:38.910 --> 00:56:41.391
farmers will have the biodiversity strip.

1079
00:56:41.491 --> 00:56:43.691
As soon as the subsidy stops,

1080
00:56:44.612 --> 00:56:45.992
they'll stop with the strips.

1081
00:56:46.192 --> 00:56:48.513
It's not really part of your model,

1082
00:56:48.733 --> 00:56:49.353
your business model.

1083
00:56:49.353 --> 00:56:51.193
We want it to be without subsidies.

1084
00:56:51.534 --> 00:56:54.194
If the farmers you work with can get extra for that,

1085
00:56:54.454 --> 00:56:54.994
great for them.

1086
00:56:55.675 --> 00:56:55.995
But yeah.

1087
00:56:56.935 --> 00:56:58.275
But if that subsidy stops,

1088
00:56:58.575 --> 00:57:00.216
we still want it to be as...

1089
00:57:00.884 --> 00:57:17.799
good so that that it's still profitable for them to to continue um and therefore we believe like if if we can create the market and if other companies start copying us and that dutch consumers demand local tea then

1090
00:57:17.839 --> 00:57:22.683
it's truly sustainable because then um it works by itself

1091
00:57:24.244 --> 00:57:40.877
yeah then the core of the model is really regenerative yeah awesome so you've been doing this for what four or five years yeah five years yeah five years now so you've been looking at weeds differently right yeah so you your eye must have changed like what happens

1092
00:57:40.917 --> 00:57:50.784
when you walk in down the street do you now spot plants and herbs in the street and you think oh that would make a nice uh a nice salad or a nice tea or something like that literally did like so in the first

1093
00:57:51.580 --> 00:57:52.381
So yes,

1094
00:57:52.381 --> 00:57:52.741
of course,

1095
00:57:52.781 --> 00:57:53.302
Daan and I,

1096
00:57:53.762 --> 00:57:57.565
we love nature and we've always been outside and doing things.

1097
00:57:58.466 --> 00:58:00.587
But plants was for me a blind spot.

1098
00:58:01.008 --> 00:58:03.650
And the more we look into these plants,

1099
00:58:04.830 --> 00:58:07.633
then suddenly you start seeing them everywhere.

1100
00:58:09.094 --> 00:58:09.614
And yes,

1101
00:58:09.634 --> 00:58:09.974
of course,

1102
00:58:09.994 --> 00:58:10.555
it's like,

1103
00:58:10.635 --> 00:58:10.795
oh,

1104
00:58:10.795 --> 00:58:14.217
I want to work with this plant someday.

1105
00:58:14.398 --> 00:58:15.999
And this is nice as well.

1106
00:58:16.059 --> 00:58:17.320
And how does this taste?

1107
00:58:18.064 --> 00:58:25.788
So it's really like this whole world opened that was already always super close by.

1108
00:58:26.248 --> 00:58:28.129
Because these plants have been here forever.

1109
00:58:28.829 --> 00:58:31.670
But if you start looking at them in a different way,

1110
00:58:31.750 --> 00:58:33.271
then it's super cool.

1111
00:58:33.371 --> 00:58:35.932
It's crazy how our eye can change.

1112
00:58:35.972 --> 00:58:37.233
Like you can walk down the street.

1113
00:58:37.253 --> 00:58:38.413
If you've studied architecture,

1114
00:58:38.413 --> 00:58:40.674
you will notice all of the architecture detail.

1115
00:58:40.694 --> 00:58:42.255
If you're into street art,

1116
00:58:42.255 --> 00:58:43.616
you will notice all of the street art.

1117
00:58:43.656 --> 00:58:44.276
But if you're into...

1118
00:58:44.880 --> 00:59:04.831
wild plants you will notice that it's growing everywhere and then the seasons are super short so they're not four seasons in a year they're like 52 seasons in a year like every week or every two weeks new flowers bloom and they they take their stage and they're like what you've now you're blooming and then they're gone and new and so it's

1119
00:59:05.011 --> 00:59:13.056
super cool it's really uh yeah there's so much to see and even still now that i discover new plants

1120
00:59:13.316 --> 00:59:20.803
And that suddenly then I see these plants everywhere in that short time of the year that they take their stage and bloom.

1121
00:59:21.083 --> 00:59:21.584
And I was like...

1122
00:59:22.522 --> 00:59:49.770
have they been here always because now i see them everywhere but but they have been there forever um so yeah the endless less less evolution of seeing more things is super cool awesome yeah yeah yeah so yeah we've traced most of it already right from the farmer the processing you do most of it yourself then you collaborate with other people like the people making the kombucha yeah uh you mentioned pasta yeah is that also something you yes um

1123
00:59:50.190 --> 01:00:12.316
you work with yeah with uh yeah so we work with a pasta maker who is also really into regenerative grains and and wanted to do it right then we said let's work together and even put some herbs into the pasta so yeah okay so the pasta are not made from herbs they're made from yeah so the pasta is made with uh more ancient uh grain types

1124
01:00:12.556 --> 01:00:19.538
so and and it's a variety of grains so there's not one grain in it so the best pasta from italy is monograno

1125
01:00:20.775 --> 01:00:21.635
Only one grain.

1126
01:00:22.376 --> 01:00:24.637
And we make multigrano pasta.

1127
01:00:24.757 --> 01:00:25.418
So we say like,

1128
01:00:25.598 --> 01:00:29.361
let's include a wide variety of different,

1129
01:00:29.941 --> 01:00:37.566
way older grain types that are grown regeneratively into a pasta and even add some herbs for extra flavor.

1130
01:00:38.007 --> 01:00:46.032
And the cool thing is that about these grains is that the grain in itself doesn't have that much ecological value.

1131
01:00:46.032 --> 01:00:48.334
So it's not blooming like buckwheat does.

1132
01:00:48.694 --> 01:01:12.742
they have buckwheat blooms and therefore a lot of pollinators it attracts a lot of pollinators but the grains they don't um but the the more older variety or ancient grain types that have been growing here for a hundred and more a thousand years in our in our landscape uh they grow there's more space in between the grains so therefore it's more space for weeds to

1133
01:01:13.362 --> 01:01:37.649
uh in between the grains so therefore the ecological value of a field with ancient grain is way more higher so therefore we say like oh yeah it's a really good idea to to stimulate pasta with the older more variety of grains really cool and the taste it tastes very different from the pasta we're used to yeah no it tastes it's it's similar but better and

1134
01:01:37.829 --> 01:01:42.510
especially with the herbs inside it's it really adds something to it yeah okay cool

1135
01:01:42.710 --> 01:02:00.737
yeah um so yeah i guess i guess we we talked about the whole chain now i want to talk about the selling marketing yeah like the things which is huge we started with that saying that yeah creating the market was probably the hardest part yeah the most important one yeah and that's yeah so that is still the hardest part because yeah again

1136
01:02:00.917 --> 01:02:03.118
there are so many examples of

1137
01:02:04.682 --> 01:02:07.903
The hardest part is not how to create an agroforestry system,

1138
01:02:07.963 --> 01:02:09.764
how to work regeneratively.

1139
01:02:09.824 --> 01:02:12.385
These things are all done and can be done,

1140
01:02:12.565 --> 01:02:14.406
but the hardest part is selling it.

1141
01:02:14.786 --> 01:02:14.906
So,

1142
01:02:15.006 --> 01:02:15.126
yeah,

1143
01:02:15.286 --> 01:02:19.508
if you work in this regenerative local chain of products,

1144
01:02:20.409 --> 01:02:20.909
always,

1145
01:02:21.169 --> 01:02:29.092
which have more labor in them because they're not super efficient or not skilled to like this big industrialized way.

1146
01:02:29.452 --> 01:02:29.572
So,

1147
01:02:29.612 --> 01:02:29.912
therefore,

1148
01:02:29.912 --> 01:02:31.053
there's always more labor.

1149
01:02:31.313 --> 01:02:31.433
So,

1150
01:02:31.473 --> 01:02:31.773
therefore,

1151
01:02:31.833 --> 01:02:32.514
more costly.

1152
01:02:34.650 --> 01:02:34.770
Yeah,

1153
01:02:35.390 --> 01:02:40.733
and one thing to work around that is by keeping the chain as short as possible.

1154
01:02:41.634 --> 01:02:43.295
If you can sell it direct to consumer,

1155
01:02:43.655 --> 01:02:46.036
the margins and it's way more interesting.

1156
01:02:46.137 --> 01:02:49.438
So we started direct to consumer because of this shorter chain.

1157
01:02:50.399 --> 01:02:51.039
But again,

1158
01:02:51.600 --> 01:03:02.806
direct to consumer has some disadvantages for consumers as well because not all people are used buying tea and kombucha and other products online because that's...

1159
01:03:03.982 --> 01:03:04.502
So therefore,

1160
01:03:04.502 --> 01:03:07.463
we also work together with small retail shops,

1161
01:03:07.623 --> 01:03:10.224
like farm shops or like mostly independent,

1162
01:03:10.864 --> 01:03:12.645
smaller shops.

1163
01:03:12.705 --> 01:03:15.325
We don't want to go to the big supermarkets.

1164
01:03:15.945 --> 01:03:16.146
Okay.

1165
01:03:17.546 --> 01:03:17.906
And now,

1166
01:03:17.986 --> 01:03:18.106
yeah,

1167
01:03:18.126 --> 01:03:27.509
we have this whole network of small farm shops and other like nice delicacies shops around the country that love to work with our products.

1168
01:03:27.989 --> 01:03:31.730
We have quite some sales going through our website.

1169
01:03:32.070 --> 01:03:33.671
We have the restaurants,

1170
01:03:33.891 --> 01:03:34.272
bars,

1171
01:03:34.532 --> 01:03:36.073
and cafes,

1172
01:03:37.254 --> 01:03:38.014
and gifting.

1173
01:03:38.014 --> 01:03:39.355
So actually we have four channels,

1174
01:03:39.395 --> 01:03:40.296
direct-to-consumer,

1175
01:03:40.696 --> 01:03:43.558
small retail or quality retail,

1176
01:03:45.379 --> 01:03:45.820
restaurants,

1177
01:03:45.900 --> 01:03:46.280
bars,

1178
01:03:46.921 --> 01:03:47.461
or Ausha,

1179
01:03:47.721 --> 01:03:49.062
that's how we call it in Dutch,

1180
01:03:50.123 --> 01:03:51.384
and end-of-year gifting.

1181
01:03:51.464 --> 01:03:52.965
So these four things are really,

1182
01:03:53.925 --> 01:04:00.030
and actually it's all 25% of our revenue coming from these channels.

1183
01:04:00.390 --> 01:04:04.831
which is also nice because therefore we have like also our business model is diversified.

1184
01:04:05.872 --> 01:04:07.172
So some restaurants,

1185
01:04:07.212 --> 01:04:07.912
some retail,

1186
01:04:07.992 --> 01:04:09.052
some direct to consumer.

1187
01:04:09.312 --> 01:04:09.432
Yeah.

1188
01:04:10.433 --> 01:04:10.673
So yeah,

1189
01:04:10.973 --> 01:04:16.574
you're diversifying the sources with a lot of different farmers and then you're diversifying also the outputs.

1190
01:04:16.574 --> 01:04:16.694
Yeah,

1191
01:04:16.834 --> 01:04:20.976
because also we want from a traditional like business perspective,

1192
01:04:20.996 --> 01:04:21.596
you could say like,

1193
01:04:21.656 --> 01:04:22.016
oh yeah,

1194
01:04:22.116 --> 01:04:29.578
become a tea brand or become an iced tea brand and scale a few flavors and become this really big iced tea brand.

1195
01:04:30.195 --> 01:04:30.819
But then again,

1196
01:04:31.081 --> 01:04:32.935
if we would scale like only a few.

1197
01:04:33.448 --> 01:04:50.477
products then yeah you also scale these ingredients in the country and then but we want to create an abundance or an a wide variety of plants into the fields or the farmers we work with so therefore we need also a variety of products so

1198
01:04:50.597 --> 01:04:55.800
some kombuchas work really well in super top star michelin restaurants

1199
01:04:56.700 --> 01:05:15.184
and some products they work really well in more easy going uh Ausha and some work well in so that's also the nice things like oh this product super niche but super nice and super good for biodiversity oh yeah we can sell that only direct to consumer it works really well or we can we

1200
01:05:15.764 --> 01:05:18.485
this product works really well in this type of retail.

1201
01:05:18.765 --> 01:05:18.965
Right,

1202
01:05:18.965 --> 01:05:22.886
you can tap into different markets by having a huge diversity of products that you're making.

1203
01:05:22.926 --> 01:05:23.106
Yes,

1204
01:05:23.166 --> 01:05:23.286
yes.

1205
01:05:23.326 --> 01:05:35.130
So the advantage we are looking for is that we want to have this strong brand and that we want to have this super nice network of market partners.

1206
01:05:35.850 --> 01:05:35.970
So,

1207
01:05:36.150 --> 01:05:36.391
okay,

1208
01:05:36.411 --> 01:05:36.531
yeah,

1209
01:05:36.531 --> 01:05:37.131
for this product,

1210
01:05:37.211 --> 01:05:40.672
we'll send them an email and because this works really well in their...

1211
01:05:41.596 --> 01:05:42.557
bar or whatever.

1212
01:05:42.917 --> 01:05:43.697
And so in this model,

1213
01:05:43.717 --> 01:05:44.077
like I said,

1214
01:05:44.077 --> 01:05:50.080
you have a wide range of farmers for the inputs and a wide range of markets for the outputs,

1215
01:05:50.100 --> 01:05:51.720
but you're still one unit in between.

1216
01:05:51.720 --> 01:05:52.721
So you still kind of control.

1217
01:05:53.201 --> 01:06:00.324
Would you imagine if you had to scale the company much bigger to actually multiply hubs like yours here,

1218
01:06:00.364 --> 01:06:03.245
but having other people in other places or even countries?

1219
01:06:03.465 --> 01:06:03.685
Yes.

1220
01:06:03.785 --> 01:06:03.905
So,

1221
01:06:04.025 --> 01:06:04.205
yeah.

1222
01:06:04.205 --> 01:06:05.346
So our model is so,

1223
01:06:05.606 --> 01:06:05.746
yeah,

1224
01:06:05.746 --> 01:06:10.468
we want to scale internationally because the name Wilderland can work all over the world.

1225
01:06:10.508 --> 01:06:10.708
And.

1226
01:06:11.076 --> 01:06:15.459
And the cool thing is all over the world you have local native plants that are edible,

1227
01:06:15.839 --> 01:06:20.041
which you can turn into really nice and tasty products.

1228
01:06:20.862 --> 01:06:26.645
So for the future we see these like maybe it's bioregions,

1229
01:06:26.745 --> 01:06:27.945
maybe it's countries,

1230
01:06:28.746 --> 01:06:37.751
maybe it's ecosystems that within an ecosystem or within a country you set up some production facility and contact local farmers.

1231
01:06:38.051 --> 01:06:38.772
And then by

1232
01:06:40.344 --> 01:06:40.684
eating,

1233
01:06:40.764 --> 01:06:41.285
processing,

1234
01:06:41.365 --> 01:06:43.587
growing all these native plants in that area.

1235
01:06:44.408 --> 01:06:44.988
So yes,

1236
01:06:45.549 --> 01:06:48.811
and already we have two farmers in Belgium.

1237
01:06:49.492 --> 01:06:53.115
They started working with us first as farmers only producing for us,

1238
01:06:53.556 --> 01:06:57.859
but now they started their own brand inspired by us,

1239
01:06:58.120 --> 01:07:00.722
and they're now actually copying us in Belgium,

1240
01:07:00.782 --> 01:07:03.264
which we really think is super nice.

1241
01:07:04.085 --> 01:07:04.545
So actually,

1242
01:07:04.545 --> 01:07:04.665
yeah,

1243
01:07:04.685 --> 01:07:05.226
for the future,

1244
01:07:05.246 --> 01:07:06.647
we see either way,

1245
01:07:07.167 --> 01:07:07.508
people...

1246
01:07:07.868 --> 01:07:28.222
copy the way we work and and yes do it do it locally in your in your local area or we will maybe we'll franchise and say uh you can do this in your country uh on the same way we did like less monocultures more native plants creating super tasty products out of them and then let's

1247
01:07:28.242 --> 01:07:36.108
go thank you so much for listening this far into the episode if you're enjoying this podcast and you would like to support me

1248
01:07:36.408 --> 01:07:36.968
and my work,

1249
01:07:36.968 --> 01:07:39.050
you can actually do that in just five seconds.

1250
01:07:39.090 --> 01:07:39.851
It's very simple.

1251
01:07:41.092 --> 01:07:43.373
Whichever platform you're using right now to listen to this,

1252
01:07:43.574 --> 01:07:48.397
just click on the deep seat page and hit the follow or subscribe button.

1253
01:07:48.838 --> 01:07:52.220
It actually makes a huge difference for me and I would be very grateful.

1254
01:07:53.461 --> 01:07:55.343
So thank you so much for that.

1255
01:07:55.503 --> 01:07:56.664
And let's get back to it.

1256
01:07:59.336 --> 01:08:02.237
Can we talk a little bit about the business model and the numbers?

1257
01:08:02.257 --> 01:08:04.778
I don't know how transparent you are on all of that.

1258
01:08:05.298 --> 01:08:06.019
Yeah,

1259
01:08:06.279 --> 01:08:07.519
we're quite transparent on that.

1260
01:08:09.820 --> 01:08:16.442
I recently read an article that was saying that on average products in the supermarkets,

1261
01:08:18.283 --> 01:08:21.224
only 9% of the final price was going to the...

1262
01:08:21.628 --> 01:08:22.809
farmer.

1263
01:08:22.809 --> 01:08:25.070
I think that's the number I read like very recently.

1264
01:08:26.651 --> 01:08:28.773
I was wondering how does it break down for you?

1265
01:08:28.773 --> 01:08:30.354
If you take maybe one key product,

1266
01:08:31.235 --> 01:08:32.075
your tea for example,

1267
01:08:32.075 --> 01:08:38.960
as an example can you sort of break down the different costs and how much of it goes to the farmer and so on?

1268
01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:44.624
Yeah maybe for tea that's a good thing.

1269
01:08:46.776 --> 01:08:47.116
I think,

1270
01:08:47.196 --> 01:08:47.336
yeah,

1271
01:08:47.437 --> 01:08:48.898
so on average,

1272
01:08:49.038 --> 01:08:49.638
our tea,

1273
01:08:49.838 --> 01:08:51.079
like one pack of tea,

1274
01:08:51.519 --> 01:08:56.263
is sold for 5 euros and 50 cents as a retail consumer price.

1275
01:08:57.343 --> 01:08:59.525
And then most of the time,

1276
01:08:59.625 --> 01:09:01.907
retailers or shops,

1277
01:09:01.927 --> 01:09:04.128
they want 30 to 35,

1278
01:09:04.128 --> 01:09:05.849
sometimes 40% margin.

1279
01:09:06.630 --> 01:09:08.071
So that's already going for...

1280
01:09:09.968 --> 01:09:10.508
for shops.

1281
01:09:11.169 --> 01:09:16.412
So we sell it mostly for like €3.20 or €3,

1282
01:09:17.092 --> 01:09:17.833
€3.50.

1283
01:09:18.593 --> 01:09:21.855
That's our like a B2B price for tea.

1284
01:09:22.836 --> 01:09:23.976
Then there's a few costs.

1285
01:09:23.976 --> 01:09:25.617
There's the ingredients,

1286
01:09:26.698 --> 01:09:28.059
then there's the processing,

1287
01:09:28.139 --> 01:09:29.499
then there's the packaging.

1288
01:09:30.260 --> 01:09:32.761
So the packages like the label and all these things,

1289
01:09:32.841 --> 01:09:33.782
they cost around

1290
01:09:35.082 --> 01:09:36.343
Between 15 and

1291
01:09:36.703 --> 01:09:37.483
50 cents.

1292
01:09:39.905 --> 01:09:41.686
And then put it in,

1293
01:09:42.426 --> 01:09:52.732
whether it is counting 20 tea bags and put them in a box or weighing 40 grams of loose tea and then put it in a bag and sealing it,

1294
01:09:53.313 --> 01:09:54.013
put the label on.

1295
01:09:55.154 --> 01:09:56.074
That costs around

1296
01:09:57.135 --> 01:09:59.876
20 cents as well or sometimes 30 cents,

1297
01:10:00.177 --> 01:10:01.597
depending on who is the packer.

1298
01:10:03.058 --> 01:10:09.103
And the price of the herbs in this bag are around one euro.

1299
01:10:10.324 --> 01:10:10.525
Okay.

1300
01:10:11.185 --> 01:10:14.048
And so between the different types of costs that you've mentioned here,

1301
01:10:14.068 --> 01:10:19.472
do you still manage to make a decent margin for yourself and to have a profitable business?

1302
01:10:19.733 --> 01:10:19.973
Yes.

1303
01:10:20.553 --> 01:10:24.977
So last year we did some profit,

1304
01:10:25.778 --> 01:10:26.278
only small,

1305
01:10:26.499 --> 01:10:30.202
but it was a really big achievement that we were profitable.

1306
01:10:30.986 --> 01:10:32.848
Including your own salaries.

1307
01:10:32.988 --> 01:10:33.128
Yes,

1308
01:10:33.228 --> 01:10:34.809
including salaries and everything.

1309
01:10:34.909 --> 01:10:35.350
So that's,

1310
01:10:35.410 --> 01:10:35.530
yeah,

1311
01:10:35.630 --> 01:10:37.472
and we're having a small salary.

1312
01:10:37.552 --> 01:10:37.672
So,

1313
01:10:37.792 --> 01:10:42.336
but of course it's nice that it was profitable and we did

1314
01:10:42.736 --> 01:10:45.378
1 million euros in revenue last year.

1315
01:10:46.279 --> 01:10:49.722
So now we're growing into a point that is becoming quite seriously,

1316
01:10:50.662 --> 01:10:52.244
which is really nice.

1317
01:10:52.264 --> 01:10:52.764
And we think,

1318
01:10:52.804 --> 01:10:53.004
yeah,

1319
01:10:53.004 --> 01:10:54.325
it can be way bigger.

1320
01:10:54.485 --> 01:10:54.605
So,

1321
01:10:57.027 --> 01:10:57.148
yeah,

1322
01:10:57.188 --> 01:11:00.010
that's super nice to see that it's working out and that.

1323
01:11:00.430 --> 01:11:22.445
our brand becomes more known and that people really know why it's more expensive but that they really feel that it's good and and the the biggest greatest thing is that that the quality is really perceived well so that that people like yeah wow these products are really tasty and and the quality of the taste is super good and that's actually the

1324
01:11:22.485 --> 01:11:23.966
the most um

1325
01:11:25.262 --> 01:11:50.069
the the best thing that could have happened is that absolutely yeah it's not people so it's not people buying it because it's good for the world but it's people buying it because it's super tasty yeah we didn't even talk about that yet yeah that's that's the key you're selling a product you want the product yeah really good quality people to enjoy it yes and that and that worked out so there are michelin star chefs working with our products because of the really

1326
01:11:50.149 --> 01:11:53.830
nice quality that's that's amazing i mean obviously you're it's yeah

1327
01:11:54.170 --> 01:12:10.360
you're telling me that the farmers are super happy you get great feedback from them your consumers are really happy to your profitable business that is growing so it's going pretty well right yeah yeah but of course we're always saying it can be faster why not uh but of course it's

1328
01:12:10.400 --> 01:12:18.986
growing really well already and that's super nice but with all these challenges of course but uh but still it can be done that can be done cool

1329
01:12:19.166 --> 01:12:19.926
It's a great example.

1330
01:12:19.946 --> 01:12:25.429
I hope that people can listen to this and maybe get inspired to start their own businesses in different places around the world.

1331
01:12:25.589 --> 01:12:26.070
Copy us.

1332
01:12:26.390 --> 01:12:26.850
Yeah,

1333
01:12:26.930 --> 01:12:27.230
do it.

1334
01:12:28.671 --> 01:12:28.951
Awesome.

1335
01:12:28.991 --> 01:12:30.812
And how many employees do you have?

1336
01:12:31.233 --> 01:12:33.714
Now we have eight people full time.

1337
01:12:33.934 --> 01:12:34.534
Including yourself?

1338
01:12:34.734 --> 01:12:35.475
Including myself.

1339
01:12:35.555 --> 01:12:35.675
Yeah,

1340
01:12:35.675 --> 01:12:39.237
so eight people on the payroll and Dana as well.

1341
01:12:40.437 --> 01:12:41.478
So that's eight people.

1342
01:12:41.978 --> 01:12:48.682
But I think that the team of people that we are working with on a daily basis is around 20.

1343
01:12:49.102 --> 01:13:08.741
because we work together with a um yeah social or sheltered workplace here pantar in amsterdam that's so the people that are doing fulfillment and packaging and all the and that's also around a team of like five to ten people a day uh that are constantly working in our operation and

1344
01:13:08.781 --> 01:13:13.085
we also work with a nice creative agency that so there's like this whole

1345
01:13:14.518 --> 01:13:18.700
There's a lot of people contributing on the site apart from these eight people.

1346
01:13:18.760 --> 01:13:18.880
Yeah,

1347
01:13:18.920 --> 01:13:19.180
I see.

1348
01:13:19.180 --> 01:13:19.640
Yeah,

1349
01:13:19.640 --> 01:13:19.780
yeah.

1350
01:13:19.940 --> 01:13:21.461
So you're also creating jobs.

1351
01:13:21.781 --> 01:13:21.961
Yes.

1352
01:13:22.261 --> 01:13:23.882
And interesting jobs as well.

1353
01:13:24.042 --> 01:13:24.222
Yeah,

1354
01:13:24.462 --> 01:13:24.662
really.

1355
01:13:24.862 --> 01:13:24.982
Yeah,

1356
01:13:25.062 --> 01:13:27.183
we get a lot of job applications.

1357
01:13:27.343 --> 01:13:27.843
Yeah,

1358
01:13:27.863 --> 01:13:28.104
awesome.

1359
01:13:28.104 --> 01:13:28.584
People want to work.

1360
01:13:28.664 --> 01:13:29.084
Yeah,

1361
01:13:29.144 --> 01:13:29.804
we need to grow.

1362
01:13:30.785 --> 01:13:31.225
Awesome.

1363
01:13:31.285 --> 01:13:32.065
That's so cool.

1364
01:13:32.285 --> 01:13:34.426
And we talked a lot about Commonland.

1365
01:13:34.526 --> 01:13:39.928
And this episode is probably going to be released just after the conversation I had with Will and I from Commonland.

1366
01:13:40.649 --> 01:13:42.669
It kind of links up very nicely in the story.

1367
01:13:43.210 --> 01:13:44.030
And she explained...

1368
01:13:44.170 --> 01:14:00.219
the the four returns framework um and it was a little bit hard to put into context and to practice and so it would be a great opportunity to do that if you could maybe assess you know yeah your business according to the principles

1369
01:14:00.299 --> 01:14:13.566
yes so yeah so the common land principles they say like three zones 20 years four returns so three zones that you have an economic zone a combined zone and a natural zone in a landscape and if if you look into the netherlands it's part

1370
01:14:13.746 --> 01:14:18.474
mostly economic activity and a little bit natural zone.

1371
01:14:18.715 --> 01:14:22.802
We are creating the combined zone where economy and ecology meet.

1372
01:14:25.154 --> 01:14:26.575
So that's what we do on the land,

1373
01:14:27.015 --> 01:14:28.257
working together with farmers.

1374
01:14:28.817 --> 01:14:39.867
And we want to establish long-term relationships with the farmers so that we can really work towards these agroforestry systems where more trees,

1375
01:14:40.648 --> 01:14:41.068
bushes,

1376
01:14:41.188 --> 01:14:42.870
everything is integrated into it.

1377
01:14:45.052 --> 01:14:48.214
And by making it long-term,

1378
01:14:48.254 --> 01:14:50.977
that it's really interesting for them to do.

1379
01:14:51.481 --> 01:14:54.463
divert to these ways of working.

1380
01:14:55.263 --> 01:14:56.063
And while doing,

1381
01:14:56.624 --> 01:15:01.006
by working with mostly native plants and going into agroforestry,

1382
01:15:01.086 --> 01:15:01.766
strip cropping,

1383
01:15:02.187 --> 01:15:07.289
we create natural capital because the plants that we do or the ingredients that we work with,

1384
01:15:08.670 --> 01:15:10.591
we optimize all our ingredients,

1385
01:15:10.671 --> 01:15:14.153
all our products for as much insects as possible.

1386
01:15:15.626 --> 01:15:18.167
So if you plant chamomile,

1387
01:15:18.167 --> 01:15:29.193
you get the chamomile butterfly for free with it because the chamomile butterfly lives only on chamomile and 100 other species that are attracted by chamomile.

1388
01:15:29.393 --> 01:15:32.695
So that is the natural capital we are creating.

1389
01:15:32.775 --> 01:15:33.955
So nature returns,

1390
01:15:34.015 --> 01:15:34.195
bees,

1391
01:15:34.256 --> 01:15:34.856
butterflies.

1392
01:15:36.797 --> 01:15:40.359
Then we're creating social capital because we're creating jobs.

1393
01:15:40.459 --> 01:15:42.680
We create income for farmers.

1394
01:15:43.460 --> 01:15:44.141
We're creating...

1395
01:15:46.126 --> 01:16:01.390
financial capital because we are adding like this whole chain from farmer to end consumer in between a lot of value is added what we said like dandelion just dandelion is worthless in

1396
01:16:01.370 --> 01:16:09.313
an economical way but by making kombucha or tea from it a lot of value is added so you're you're creating financial return

1397
01:16:11.414 --> 01:16:14.757
And the most important thing is actually the inspirational return,

1398
01:16:14.997 --> 01:16:18.280
because we want to work with a lot of farmers.

1399
01:16:18.320 --> 01:16:21.103
We want to show to consumers that it can be done.

1400
01:16:21.423 --> 01:16:22.164
So therefore,

1401
01:16:23.225 --> 01:16:27.849
the return of inspiration is a really big aspect of what we do,

1402
01:16:27.949 --> 01:16:28.069
that,

1403
01:16:28.189 --> 01:16:28.349
yeah,

1404
01:16:28.389 --> 01:16:29.070
it can be done.

1405
01:16:29.450 --> 01:16:31.632
And it can be done on a super small scale.

1406
01:16:31.712 --> 01:16:33.453
And if you want to contribute,

1407
01:16:34.855 --> 01:16:35.255
join us.

1408
01:16:36.296 --> 01:16:36.416
So...

1409
01:16:38.781 --> 01:16:39.141
So yeah,

1410
01:16:39.482 --> 01:16:40.382
you have the four returns,

1411
01:16:40.642 --> 01:16:41.543
return of inspiration,

1412
01:16:41.643 --> 01:16:43.063
return of natural capital,

1413
01:16:43.143 --> 01:16:44.344
return of social capital,

1414
01:16:44.904 --> 01:16:46.525
and return of financial capital.

1415
01:16:46.945 --> 01:16:50.307
And by building nature and then the rest will follow.

1416
01:16:50.867 --> 01:16:52.668
That's an amazing demonstration of the model.

1417
01:16:52.808 --> 01:16:53.488
Thank you so much.

1418
01:16:53.528 --> 01:16:54.268
That really helps.

1419
01:16:54.789 --> 01:16:55.369
And yeah,

1420
01:16:55.409 --> 01:16:56.970
talking about the natural capital.

1421
01:16:57.010 --> 01:16:58.390
So you mentioned the insects,

1422
01:16:58.390 --> 01:17:00.351
the butterflies and the bees and all of that.

1423
01:17:01.032 --> 01:17:04.073
There's also the nature in the soil.

1424
01:17:04.393 --> 01:17:05.234
The biodiversity,

1425
01:17:05.314 --> 01:17:06.775
the microbiology in the soil,

1426
01:17:07.075 --> 01:17:08.597
by having perennial plants as well,

1427
01:17:08.697 --> 01:17:10.458
and not having to work the soil every year.

1428
01:17:11.038 --> 01:17:16.203
Like how much you're boosting that natural capital inside of the soil must be amazing.

1429
01:17:16.323 --> 01:17:16.903
It's amazing,

1430
01:17:16.943 --> 01:17:17.143
yeah.

1431
01:17:17.244 --> 01:17:18.665
Are you measuring any of that?

1432
01:17:18.945 --> 01:17:22.127
Trying to measure the biodiversity that comes back into the strips or in the soil?

1433
01:17:22.127 --> 01:17:22.208
Yeah,

1434
01:17:22.208 --> 01:17:23.789
we would love to measure that.

1435
01:17:23.889 --> 01:17:26.011
And we would love to make claims about it,

1436
01:17:26.051 --> 01:17:27.412
but it's really difficult.

1437
01:17:27.452 --> 01:17:33.116
So if anybody is listening and has ideas on how to measure biodiversity,

1438
01:17:33.196 --> 01:17:33.857
we would love to.

1439
01:17:34.177 --> 01:17:34.497
hear that.

1440
01:17:35.377 --> 01:17:35.738
Currently,

1441
01:17:35.958 --> 01:17:40.499
there is some data about plant-insect relations.

1442
01:17:41.239 --> 01:17:43.080
So for butterflies,

1443
01:17:43.160 --> 01:17:46.240
butterflies are super specific for their host plant.

1444
01:17:49.721 --> 01:17:53.022
a butterfly only can put its eggs on a super specific plant.

1445
01:17:53.022 --> 01:17:54.803
So if you place that plant,

1446
01:17:55.283 --> 01:17:57.904
you get the butterflies coming back.

1447
01:17:58.164 --> 01:18:01.505
So there are some strong plant-insect relations that you can say like,

1448
01:18:01.565 --> 01:18:01.745
okay,

1449
01:18:01.785 --> 01:18:02.005
if we

1450
01:18:02.145 --> 01:18:18.369
plant more fennel you get the queen page butterfly if you plant more chamomile you get the chamomile butterfly and so there is something to say about that and that's also nice we already seeing that in the field that we that we plant these these plants and that one

1451
01:18:18.450 --> 01:18:30.913
season later a few years later you see these butterflies uh showing up in these fields and it's like wow these butterflies are here because we planted these plants so yes there is some

1452
01:18:31.273 --> 01:18:49.153
data and we try to communicate that data as well so with all our products we say we call it collecting species because that's what biodiversity is about and more species is better so we we have on our website this figure of how many insect species we

1453
01:18:49.313 --> 01:18:51.715
contribute with yeah cool yeah um where can you

1454
01:18:53.477 --> 01:19:22.381
people find you and your products if they'd like to they're they like what i heard today they're interested and they want to make a nice gift to a family member yes that's a great question wilderland.com wilder um uh streep land.com or yeah google for wilderland that's of course all the links will be put in the description of this episode so you just click in the description and i'll put the links but yeah yeah wilderland wilderland.com yeah uh then you can find out and look and

1455
01:19:23.482 --> 01:19:24.183
find us there.

1456
01:19:24.403 --> 01:19:25.484
We're on Instagram as well.

1457
01:19:25.484 --> 01:19:29.288
If you want to see everything in practice and all the pictures and whatever,

1458
01:19:29.588 --> 01:19:30.369
just look us up.

1459
01:19:31.370 --> 01:19:32.171
And in the Netherlands,

1460
01:19:32.231 --> 01:19:32.832
we have,

1461
01:19:33.953 --> 01:19:34.073
yeah,

1462
01:19:34.173 --> 01:19:34.674
what I said,

1463
01:19:36.055 --> 01:19:38.758
a network of shops and restaurants that we work with.

1464
01:19:39.318 --> 01:19:43.443
You can even find the map on the website for where to sell it if you want to like,

1465
01:19:43.523 --> 01:19:45.225
if you want to purchase it offline.

1466
01:19:46.174 --> 01:19:47.376
And for internationally,

1467
01:19:47.877 --> 01:19:47.997
yeah,

1468
01:19:48.017 --> 01:19:49.299
we also ship internationally.

1469
01:19:49.920 --> 01:19:52.385
And if you're interested in starting your own Wilderland,

1470
01:19:52.585 --> 01:19:54.108
just let us know.

1471
01:19:55.770 --> 01:19:59.811
Maybe one day we'll collaborate.

1472
01:20:00.471 --> 01:20:00.592
Yeah,

1473
01:20:00.672 --> 01:20:01.052
for sure.

1474
01:20:01.072 --> 01:20:06.113
I'll leave your contact as well in the description and the website.

1475
01:20:06.113 --> 01:20:08.894
I guess there's a contact form on the website.

1476
01:20:08.994 --> 01:20:09.634
You'll find me.

1477
01:20:10.555 --> 01:20:16.416
And I really do hope that people do contact you either for selling your products or for starting a business with you and stuff like that.

1478
01:20:16.656 --> 01:20:17.437
Really nice.

1479
01:20:17.437 --> 01:20:18.237
Really awesome stuff.

1480
01:20:18.497 --> 01:20:18.677
Really,

1481
01:20:18.757 --> 01:20:21.758
really uplifting story to hear.

1482
01:20:21.898 --> 01:20:42.825
you know a positive story that benefits everyone benefits humans benefits nature benefits farmers tasty healthy products i mean it's yeah it's actually quite simple yeah but it's yeah it's awesome yeah congratulations for all that i love it thanks um if there's like one one

1483
01:20:42.885 --> 01:20:45.886
key message you would like to share with people what would it be

1484
01:20:47.602 --> 01:20:58.555
go native go native okay well to the point yeah all right thank you so much it's been a great conversation I loved it and great to meet you as well so thank you thanks