We're so calm and harmonious today.
Let's go.
Yeah.
Hey.
From space defense to space exploration,
there are missions,
satellites and such for almost everything.
Some will crack,
some will measure and others will pick up.
Yes,
like NASA's DART,
Double Asteroid Redirection Test,
which cracked with an asteroid in 2022 to see if we could change its course.
Or ESA's HERA.
which was sent to Sanna Asteroid 2024 with the mission to measure how it went.
It will be released in about a year in November 2026,
and that's what we look forward to.
Yes,
and then we have the Sondor Hayabusa and Hayabusa 2,
which didn't crack at all.
No,
they landed soft on asteroids,
collected in gravel and dust,
and then flew home with these tests again.
And in common with all these missions.
Besides being small and smart,
and that it's super cool to fly things to asteroids,
they build on cooperation between countries,
organizations and industry.
Just as it should be.
My name is Marcus Pettersson.
My name is Susanna Levenhaupt.
And you're listening to
Have We Gone To Mars Yet?
Today we will be doing small,
smart missions.
And there is only one place to start,
Japan.
There,
they have been pioneers in landing asteroids and taking samples home.
After two successful missions with Hayabusa and Hayabusa 2,
where they picked up dust from asteroids,
they prepare for a third time.
But this time from a moon.
Yes,
JAXA landed on our moon in
January 2024 with SLIM.
Smart Lander for Investigating Moon.
So why go back there,
when you can go to one of Mars'
moons instead?
In this case,
Phobos.
Masaaki Fujimoto is general director for JAXA's research department.
And with him we have talked about,
among other things,
MMX.
Martian Moons Exploration Mission
So, Dr.
Fujimoto,
last time we talked,
SLIM had just landed.
What has happened since then?
So in
January 2024,
SLIM landed on the moon.
And it was a pinpoint landing,
a new way of landing,
a smart way of landing.
And by the smallest lander on the moon.
So we are really pursuing the small and smart strategy.
And SLIM is like a symbol that we are moving.
moving ahead.
And then we are now preparing for MMX,
Martian Moons Exploration Mission,
which will return samples from Phobos,
one of the Martian moons.
So this is like continuing the legacy created by Hayabusa2.
We will return samples from one of the small bodies that was born in the outer part of the solar system.
And I think we can gain lots of insight about how the habitability was switched on,
on our planet.
And will there be a continuity with SLIM?
Yeah,
so landing on the moon,
for us,
for my institute,
it's kind of almost forbidden to repeat something again.
Every time it has to be at the cutting edge.
So when it comes to the moon,
we are now focusing on what do we do after we land.
In Japan,
we do have a company that is trying to make business out of providing the logistics.
to the surface of the moon.
And I think that's a good move happening.
That's a good transformative move that's happening now.
And maybe when it comes to landing itself,
because there's a commercial company that's interested,
we better purchase the service,
transportation service from them.
Again,
well,
it's really something new that's emerging now and we are having a discussion every day.
So that's something.
One thing I'm thinking now is,
you know,
how do you get the broader support so that
Moon and Mars exploration is a sustainable one?
Because it's something everybody's interested.
It's something everybody wish they can be a part of it.
And then we have been thinking about this,
you know,
SLIM landing on the moon.
And then MMX going to the Martian systems,
returning samples back from one of the Martian moons.
Does that mean that we are ready for landing on Mars?
And I've been scratching my head every night thinking about this.
And,
well,
you all know that NASA has been doing great.
And if we do something smaller,
but in the same style as NASA,
we'll end up just looking miserable.
But
I've been thinking about this.
And then I think we have a good idea.
We have a key technology by which we can run
JAXA's way of landing on Mars.
So that's another project I'm pursuing now.
Wow,
great.
And can you tell me just a bit more about that?
Because first off,
I mean,
you haven't landed with MMX yet.
So tell me a bit more about these two missions.
Yes,
so
HABSA-2 was a small-body mission.
So with
did the touch and go sampling from the asteroid Ryugu,
but that was about,
you know,
astrodynamics around the small gravity body.
But with SLIM,
we landed on the surface of the moon,
which means that we know how to land on a big body.
And with MMX,
we will be cruising around Mars.
So we know how to get into orbit around Mars.
So the only remaining step is how do you get to the surface of Mars from an orbit around Mars.
So I have been thinking about what's the,
you know,
we call it EDL,
entry,
descent and landing technology.
That is very nice for us to pursue,
which means that what is the key technology for EDL that enables smaller assets?
You know,
what's the key technology that will enable lightweight access to the surface of Mars?
And I think we have that technology already operating for terrestrial cases.
We call it an inflatable aeroshell.
So instead of having a parachute and then the solid heat shell,
we just have a single inflatable soft aeroshell.
And that will do all the job as long as you're interested in lightweight access to the surface of Mars.
So two questions then.
What is it that you want to do when you've landed?
Is it only to show that you can land or do you have a mission as well?
And what is the time schedule for this?
So I might want to start from the time scale.
We have three steps in mind.
And the third step is a serious one,
like bringing 200 kilogram-ish rover to the surface.
And that should happen before mid 2040.
That's my plan.
And the key,
our technology,
the technology we have,
it can bring up to 200 kilogram-ish rover to the surface.
And the reason I care about lightweight access is Mars is so attractive.
And well,
NASA's been doing great,
but...
it's one big mission in a decade.
And Mars is so attractive that you would rather go more frequently.
And because it's so attractive,
if you can gain the frequency,
even on smaller missions,
like 200 kilogram-ish rover,
if you can perform it multiple times,
like three times per decade,
I think that's what scientists want.
And it's really,
so we're really pursuing the low cost.
and more frequent access to the surface of Mars.
So in a sense,
we were trying to democratize
Mars' landing mission.
Great.
And just so,
before we leave Mars,
the first step now is to do the MMX mission.
So when will that,
how are we going with that?
Yes,
MMX mission will go to the Martian system.
It will be captured by the gravitational field of Mars.
But we don't land on Mars itself,
we land on one of the moons,
Phobos.
So it will be launched next year,
about a year from now,
and then it takes one year to get to the Martian system.
And once you're in the Martian system,
you will be orbiting around Mars,
but at the same time you're orbiting close to
Phobos.
And then during the three-year stay in the Martian system,
we will be landing on Phobos twice and getting samples from there.
from the surface.
And then in 2031,
we will be returning samples from Phobos,
and the landing spot will be in the desert in Australia.
You also told me about other missions you're on board now,
especially a few that you're doing together with
Europe and ESA.
So can you tell me more about them?
Yes,
what's already happened is the
BepiColombo mission.
It's a mission to Mercury.
So that was launched in 2018 already,
and we've been waiting for more than seven years before we get to Mercury.
Well,
Mercury,
distance-wise,
you know,
Mercury is close.
But,
you know,
when it comes to astrodynamics,
it's pretty far away.
It's a planet in the innermost part of the solar system,
and it's not easy to access.
It's as simple as that.
But,
again,
about one year from now,
we will be in orbit around Mercury,
and we'll start observations.
So
BepiColombo was like the first step where we started to have a tight collaboration with the European Space Agency.
And then what's flying now already is the JUICE mission.
It's a mission to investigate the icy moons of Jupiter.
And we have provided instruments to the mission.
And because icy moons are very interesting from the astrobiology point of view,
it is creating a nice vibe among the young planetary scientists in Japan.
So I really appreciate this collaboration.
Not only because we had the opportunity,
ESA gave us the opportunity to provide our instrument,
but more like...
stimulating their younger generations so that they can expand their horizon.
And another mission we are working on is the Comet Interceptor.
It's still under preparation,
but it's a mission that will be in a parking orbit waiting for some extra solar system object to fly by around our system.
And once we find something is coming,
then from the parking orbit,
the spacecraft will make a close flyby with that.
exotic object and make observations.
So it has a kind of a similar flavor as a planetary defense,
but you know that something is getting close to you,
but that may be too late,
because you know that something is coming,
and you think,
oh,
I want to send a spacecraft to it.
You have to start building a spacecraft,
you have to prepare the launcher,
and then launch,
and launch window can be limited when it comes to space missions.
So instead of doing all those groundwork,
after knowing that your favourite body is coming,
you better launch your spacecraft already beforehand and put it into the parking orbit,
which is like a launch point.
And from there,
it's easy to get out into the interplanetary space.
So it's a point where you should park your vehicle and wait until your favourite body comes and once you see it coming.
it's easy to get out into the interplanetary space and make a close encounter.
So that's the idea.
I think it's a brilliant idea.
So the mission consists of three spacecraft,
one the mothership and then the two daughter spacecraft.
And we will be providing one of the daughter spacecraft because mothership don't want to take the risk,
but our daughter spacecraft can take the risk.
So we will be the one that will make the closest approach to this.
you know,
incoming exotic body.
So,
yeah,
again,
I like this project because we know each other well.
Our European friends know that we like to take the risk.
And because it's composed of three spacecraft,
there's a role,
you know,
it's like a role sharing.
We will do our job and the Europeans will do their job.
And as a whole,
we can get some nice result.
We will gain insight about this incoming exotic body.
Because we talked about the planetary defense things you have going.
So can you tell us more about the missions and what your thoughts are on the planetary defense side?
Again,
it's something new happening.
We made a big success with HABSA-2 mission,
and it's an asteroid sample return mission.
So if you think about asteroid science,
and if you think what's the biggest topic related to asteroid science,
it's planetary defense.
Basically,
Planetary Defense is about proving that you are smarter than dinosaurs.
Humanity is smarter than dinosaurs.
We used to think that if you are not capable of deflecting small bodies,
we shouldn't be talking about Planetary Defense.
That was what we used to think.
But now we have the capability to investigate small bodies,
then we can contribute to Planetary Defense.
So that's the change which happened recently.
And concretely,
how will we...
do this?
How will we defend the planet?
Oh,
so when we realize that there's a small body that's going to hit Earth,
what we can do is to change the trajectory.
And there's a,
practically speaking,
there's one technology that's been demonstrated already,
which we call the kinetic impactor.
So you impact the spacecraft to the small body so that you can change the trajectory.
But that should happen like 10 years ahead of the impact date.
Earlier is better,
of course.
You cannot change them once after you start to see it.
So again,
once you know that even you have the technology like kinetic impactor,
but still knowing that it's coming earlier is better,
then that will give you the idea that you better learn more about small bodies.
So that's where we can play a role.
And another example I can give you is...
is Apophis in less than four years from now.
There will be a
300-meter asteroid by the name Apophis.
That will zip by Earth.
The closest distance between Earth and the asteroid is like 30,000 kilometers.
So that's really,
really close.
And then we don't want to miss this opportunity.
It's like a big experiment prepared by the universe.
And we shouldn't be stupid to miss this opportunity.
When you have such an opportunity,
you better utilize it.
So that's why European Space Agency is now building a mission by the name Ramses.
And we are joining them.
And it will rendezvous with the asteroid about a month before the closest approach.
And we'll keep on rendezvous up to the time after the closest approach.
So we will watch what happens to a small body when it's under the strong gravity field of Earth.
And from that,
we can learn about the internal structure of the small body.
You know,
once you know about the internal structure,
that will give us better insight into how we could perform the kinetic impact experiment,
if needed,
in a much better way.
And as I have learned to understand it,
both
Jaxa and yourself,
you're very visionary.
So what is your vision for the future of,
let's start with the moon,
what would you like to see there?
yeah for the moon
I don't have much to say because it's already a territory where commercial vendors are coming,
commercial companies are coming in.
So
I cannot talk much about the moon,
but when it comes to Mars,
it's so attractive.
And there's a big chance that we can make some findings that will change the shape of astrobiology.
I think astrobiology will be the one with the...
one of the biggest pillar in academic activity sooner or later.
And then if our mission makes some finding that will reshape astrobiology,
I think that's the moment you think your life is worth of it.
I will put it that way.
So for me,
democratizing Mars landing missions is something I really think I can devote my time to.
Mars is so attractive.
It's challenging as well.
And there are many players in the globe that can provide something,
but who cannot,
you know,
who cannot manage a whole mission.
Then why don't we prepare a platform that everybody can join?
Not just,
you know,
Europe or the U.S.,
but somebody,
some emerging space nations.
They can join us.
We provide a platform,
and the platform should be one that...
will enable frequent missions,
frequent and okay-sized missions.
And that way,
more and more people can join,
have fun together.
I think that will make me happy when it happens.
Are manned missions part of your vision here,
both for the Moon and Mars?
Yeah,
it's a tough question.
Like
10 years ago,
15 years ago,
when I was a pure scientist,
It was so easy to complain about the cost associated with human missions.
But at the same time,
when you talk about visions,
if you don't have human missions somewhere in your mind,
then is it really fun?
So yes,
I think the human mission is the ultimate thing that we should think about,
but it's costly.
And there are so many things that you should think about,
like,
can you really take the risk?
So what we should really do now is to think about,
more seriously,
about the synergy between robotic mission and human missions.
So,
like,
at JAXA,
we are preparing a big pressurized rover,
and that will bring human astronauts to the surface of the moon.
But because it's a human astronaut,
you don't want to ask her or him to...
take a big risk.
Hey,
can you jump off the cliff?
That's not what you ask her or him to do.
And there will be a situation like this,
you know,
because it's going to be a big rover,
that the area that it can access will be limited.
So if you think about all those practical issues,
you would think that even though human astronauts are smart,
but,
you know,
constrained at the same time,
and then maybe she or he can bring a
a small robot together with her and let the small robot do the focused
job,
but can take the risk at the same time.
So for me,
in the future,
in the near future,
when an astronaut is walking a small robot,
like we walk our dog in the park on Sunday morning,
again,
that vision makes me happy.
And when will we be there?
In 10 years.
It should happen within 10 years.
Yes.
If these visions make Masaaki Fujimoto happy,
then it's our damn duty to fulfill them.
Right?
So it's just to keep going.
Whether it's to put people with robot dogs on the moon,
small space probes on asteroids,
or components on satellites around the world for that part,
then Sweden should be with us.
And we are with us,
both when it comes to research and when it comes to advanced space technology.
Precis!
Så nu lämnar vi...
We work with rugged,
In space,
the requirements are even tougher.
And it's often radiation,
so it's a lot of red hard.
Space-grade electronics,
as the Americans say,
is what we're doing.
And then the requirements are much higher.
It's temperatures and radiation and vibrations and all these things.
And we are a supplier of both components,
that's where we started,
a little bigger system,
single board computers,
a little bit of a circle in daily life,
and also computers,
where we work most with the defense industry.
These computers are often based on something that exists and then we modify them.
So we are a advisor and product supplier and product developer that solves customers'
challenges.
Defense and space,
it's not really the same relationship.
So what more do you have to do for your products to stay in space?
When it comes to space,
as I said,
it's partly these enormous environment requirements.
It's often a requirement that it should be very small,
miniaturization,
and this with radiation is an important piece.
So there we have traditionally been strong in red hard and high specifications.
We now note this glide towards much low earth orbit and the so-called new space segment.
We listen very carefully to what the requirements are,
and that's what I mean by this advisory function and partly also product development.
That we,
together with manufacturers,
can listen carefully to the challenges that exist and adapt our deliveries and our products to what is needed.
So that's what we do on the space side.
So there are many components and we are specialists on the components in a computer or something that sits around.
CPUs,
GPUs or FPGAs.
It's often about power supply,
it can be about memory,
it can be space cameras and it can be combined components.
One important factor both in the field of space and in the field of defense is that before there might have been a little more time and a little less money.
Now it's the other way around.
Now there's a lot of money and a lot of time.
We have ready solutions that can help our customers to get faster to the shot.
We often have quite short delivery times despite this being modified or scrapped solutions.
Tell us a little more about where you are and what you do there.
It's famous missions like Hera for example where we have both power and memory components on board.
So it's about satellites and their computers.
and these single board computers where we have components.
And that's a lot.
We have,
together with our manufacturers,
30 years of flight heritage from...
It's Leo,
it's MEO...
It's
Geo and Deep Space.
To give you a few examples,
apart from HERA,
which is an asteroid project,
we have
Jupiter, Moon,
Hubble,
Juno,
Juice,
ExoMars,
Mercury,
BepiColombo.
There are many such examples,
but it's a lot about satellites.
All of these I mentioned now.
It's a little further out in space,
but the big one is of course the growing LEO segment.
You mention Hera.
What have you done there and what are your components doing?
A satellite was sent up,
DART,
that was going to collide.
The Hera mission is to monitor how you succeed with...
If you look at this crater,
you can diverge the track.
For the future,
nothing usually comes to earth.
Again,
we are characterized by a supplier to an
ESA project.
There are manufacturing companies that have turned to us for components.
It is mostly about different types of memories.
It can be what we call mass storage.
It can be the configuration memory for a
FPGA or a processor.
And there are a lot of different memories we have on board on these circuit cards for talking about clear text.
Then there is also this important part with that these must be power-sustained.
There we also have very nice,
again very reliable solutions.
This is further out in space and here you should be for a while and it is a very bright.
So here you get the right things if I express myself like that.
and
And how long are these things going to last?
Yes,
that's a good question.
Just like I said earlier,
we listen carefully to what the requirements are.
It's a bit like how far a string is,
but what are the requirements and then we meet them.
There are different degrees in these quality...
It's often about radiation and it can be single events,
SCE as well.
It can't be hit by a proton or anything else.
We've tested the equipment so it guarantees that it will last as long as it takes.
And now that we're talking about different distances,
you're building for Leo and you've been away,
on your way to Jupiter and away,
does it require different sustainability and sustainability?
Yes,
it primarily concerns how long you're going to be out.
and what kind of radiation profile you have and so on.
And it doesn't have to be perfect.
You have to have guaranteed products that can handle a certain radiation level.
These are the ones that are a little further out,
of course.
And when you get a little closer to LEO-routes and so on,
it's the same thing again.
Then you don't just have to ask yourself how high you should go and how long,
but which route is it?
Polar routes?
And not just looking at the radiation,
but looking at the SCE as well.
What risk do you have?
And what are the parts?
And we clearly notice that the so-called New Space projects,
where you may have tried a little,
yes,
unproven card and chanced,
if you put it that way,
it brings a little back for us that if you want to find a between-stage,
that it must not go wrong,
for example,
with power supply.
Or some configuration memory.
While on other parts of the construction,
no,
it doesn't do much.
If there's a hiccup here,
then it starts over there.
And we have other,
the customer can have other backups that are careful to listen to what risk appetite they have,
we usually say.
You don't build entire satellites.
So how do you work together with the customer to put your stuff in one?
some other satellite?
For example,
the radiation testing and the services around that,
softwares,
that's something that people in NewSpace have asked for.
You want to test,
you want to put together a solution with maybe some cheaper components and then test it,
maybe screen it and not put everything in one big plastic box if I'm saying it in a slurpy way,
but if you do that,
you want to be able to
We look at the radiation directions and which components are most sensitive to place,
in quotation marks,
pieces of suitable metal in the right place to protect the components.
So that's an example where we provide capacity for our customers.
But the big sellers for us are radiation-resistant memories in different classes.
Power supply,
DC-DC converters,
different filters,
but also now,
at the end,
there are space cameras.
There are many who are asking for it,
and I think that will be a big thing here in the short term.
A lot of Earth observation and many who want to build constellations where you simply want to sell your image data.
And there are many examples of this here in the north where it happens,
and it will probably grow quickly now.
Especially when the environment is like that and
Europe and the Nordic countries realize that we need to be more responsible for our own space capacity and not just be dependent on other countries.
Read USA.
We talked a little about what kind of customers you have.
And we talked about that you are within defense and space.
Those two areas,
defense and space,
became more and more that they...
glider ihop.
Hur arbetar ni med det och hur ser det ut för er,
den omställningen?
Ja,
det är precis som du säger.
Det är ju ofta dual use och om vi då tar exemplet med satelliter som kan titta på jorden uppifrån,
då kan du betrakta klimatet till exempel och temperaturer i havet,
miljöutsläpp och annat sånt där.
Men ja visst.
If you direct the cameras and your satellite in another direction,
you can see where the enemies are.
There are different sensors for this.
For us,
it's really the same.
It's about the risk appetite.
We can probably understand that since the development is going this way and there is more security,
so kanske
Kanske.
Jag vet inte.
Har det en påverkan att man har lite lägre riskaptit inom militära sammanhang?
Vilket gör att man...
Nej,
vi vill inte att det blir stillestånd precis när satelliten passerar det vi vill titta på.
Det kan vara ganska livsavgörande.
Så att man kanske satsar på lite högre klassning av utrustningen än vad vi tidigare har sett.
Om det bara handlar om något mer civilt.
You simply need to find what you're going to do on the right turn on the satellite,
otherwise people can come along if you push with a cast.
So that might be the case.
And now,
as you mentioned,
not only in Sweden,
but also in Sweden,
there is a lot of effort on space now,
and has been done in recent years,
both extra money for defense and extra money in the civilian.
But what would you need,
or what would you like to see that Sweden did to facilitate?
Not just for you,
but for your industry,
to be able to develop in this climate that we have now.
We can make a sparring that we see,
for example,
that in Finland,
the so-called ecosystem that has been built up there,
perhaps again in quotation marks,
news-based related to several satellite manufacturers.
There we can probably look a little bit in Sweden how they have done there,
maybe in the UK.
Yes,
to a certain extent Norway and Denmark as well.
I think we are a bit behind here in Sweden.
And it's perhaps about speeding things up,
simplifying purchase processes.
And yes,
there are many nice words,
but that you really go to action.
And we who are a typical
SME, Small and Medium Sized Enterprise,
that you simplify for us to be involved in things and things.
And to speed up and invest.
Titta på Finland till exempel,
hur de har gjort och vad de gör där.
Det tror jag vi kan lära oss mer om.
Framöver då,
vad ser du framåt?
Vad är nästa stora projekt som ni är med i eller som du skulle vilja arbeta inom?
Ja,
det är ofta förknippat med lite sådana här
NDR och sekretess.
Vi förhindrar då att nämna de här projekten.
Men man kan väl säga ungefär så här då.
We see a very rapid growth with constellations where companies that not only want to build the satellite,
but also want to take help and send it up with a bearing rocket.
But then you want to handle your satellite.
The longer it is up there,
the longer it generates data.
And it's this data that you want to sell.
And the longer you are up there,
you suddenly get a bonus effect on that.
And there is a very rapid growth,
often within low earth orbit,
that you want to build your own constellations of Nordic or Swedish satellites.
There we see growth,
without a doubt.
And as I said,
this with cameras I think can be an interesting addition to what we have done before.
But then I wonder,
you mentioned this earlier,
you are around...
on several sites in the solar system.
How is it when you're there?
Do you follow along and check how it goes in all these missions?
Or is it like,
you deliver and then it's done?
No,
but we're a little more nerdy.
We want to see how it goes and so on.
We follow along with that.
We who work here,
it's not everyone who has an engineering background,
but there is a space interest.
That's a big advantage.
It's very exciting to see how the development goes here.
We're happy to follow along.
Yes,
we do.
And follow along as well,
so we move on with our journey.
Because while Henrik and his team in Sweden deliver electronics that survive in space,
others are sitting at different places all over the world and planning future collaborations.
One of them is Stefan Ullamets on the German space organization DLR.
And with him we take us back to the small missions.
Stefan was project manager at Rosetta.
He worked with the German part of Hayabusa 2.
And he is research manager for the destroyer Idefix,
which is part of JAXA's Mars Moon Mission MMX to Phobos,
which Masaki Fujimoto talked about earlier.
So now we dig down a little more into that.
And we start as usual from the beginning.
Stefan,
what was the first big mission you worked on?
In this respect,
indeed,
it was
Rosetta, so the mission to a comet.
I was involved for 20 years.
In
2004, the mission was launched,
and then it took 10 years of cruise,
wide as it takes along,
in contrast to the Giotto mission,
but also some other
NASA missions.
We wanted to rendezvous,
or we wanted to have our spacecraft on the identical orbit around the Sun and not just have a quick...
flyby with high relative velocity.
So we had to have several swing-by manoeuvres,
three at the Earth,
one at Mars.
And that's why it took that long,
10 years altogether,
until in 2014 we eventually reached the comet.
Then we had not too much time to characterise the comet.
We didn't know very much before we were there.
No idea about the shape,
not at all about the surface properties
And then after characterizing the surface,
finding a landing spot,
there was the Philae landing,
first landing on a comet.
And of course,
this mission,
which really formed our understanding of comets until now,
and data are still evaluated,
publications are still written about the comet and using the data of Rosetta,
this triggered some other
activities to small bodies,
including asteroids,
like for instance Hayabusa 2,
where we were invited by our Japanese friends to have a much smaller lander than Philae,
10 kilogram lander,
mascot,
which landed on
Ryugu in 2018.
And even further following this tradition now,
we are going to another small body,
this time not really an asteroid,
not a comet,
but a
A moon,
Phobos,
the quite small moon of Mars,
where we hope to be launching in 2026.
So we talked to your colleague from JAXA about the MMX mission.
So tell us more about your part.
This time it's not just a lander,
it is a rover.
So it's a little car with four wheels.
The strategy to bring it to Phobos is a bit similar to the mascot structure,
the strategy.
So MMX,
the main spacecraft,
will also be able to deliver us from a low altitude,
range of
50 meter or so,
to the surface.
We can be dropped from there.
Gravity of Phobos,
again,
is low,
so it's no real danger to damage the rover.
It will bounce several times,
as we expect,
on the surface,
and then it will upright itself.
This time with a different mechanism.
I said it has wheels.
The wheels are on legs.
And by a smart sequence of deploying these legs,
irrespective of where the rover comes to rest,
it will upright itself.
And if everything works as we've planned and simulated,
at the end of this sequence,
it will stand on its four legs,
on the four wheels,
deploy a solar generator,
send data.
to ground,
camera data,
images,
so we know really the position,
we know the terrain around or at least in front of the rover and in principle then we can,
after some commissioning,
start moving like a car.
And it's the first time ever to have a rover,
a car,
on a body with such a low gravity.
Forbals gravity is about
1 over 2000,
the gravity on Earth,
so the weight,
the pressure you have on the surface is...
very,
very low.
That also means we can only rove very,
very slowly.
We're talking about millimeters per second,
so it's about the speed of a snail.
But still,
we can move,
and we hope to be able to move for several tens of meters in order to investigate the heterogeneity of the surface material to find possibly
geological features to investigate the surface properties,
for instance,
by imaging the tracks.
So how deep do the wheels dig into the soil or the grains?
We don't really know the surface properties yet.
And we also have a Raman spectrometer on board to get information on the mineralogy of single spots or single grains even underneath.
In addition,
we will measure the temperature range and also the temperature change between day and night.
And if you see how rapidly it chills down on the surface or the surface gets hotter when the sun rises,
you get information on the thermal conductivity.
And this again allows conclusions on the porosity and the structure,
again,
thermal physical properties of the surface material.
Something you...
cannot find out with the samples you return because obviously they are modified by the sampling process itself.
Why do we want to know these things?
Well,
these things,
it's a variety of reasons.
For the Phobos mission,
there is the question really related to Phobos itself,
because there is some controversial discussion about the origin of Phobos and the other moon of Mars.
If you look at the spectrum,
the color,
if you wish,
of the surface,
it looks like a primitive asteroid.
So the first idea was it's a captured asteroid.
Same for Deimos.
But if you look at the orbits,
it's very close to the ecliptic.
It's a circular orbit,
and it's difficult to explain how one planet without another body can capture an asteroid.
Right.
It's,
it's.
dynamically difficult.
There are scenarios how it would be possible.
For instance,
if you have a double asteroid,
one is ejected and one is captured,
you could explain that.
But it doesn't sound very probable,
not very likely.
And it happened at least twice because we have two moons.
And then the orbit is not somewhere,
but it's an almost circular orbit.
And it's very close to the ecliptic.
So the other idea is it originated
due to a huge impact,
a bit similar to our terrestrial moon.
And then several moons could have formed,
and some may have caused the ring,
which disappeared again.
Also Phobos,
by the way,
will disappear.
It gets closer and closer to Mars.
It will,
at some point in a few
10 million years,
probably disassemble,
cause a ring,
or disappear.
Deimos is different.
It's like our moon going outside.
That's the other.
theory,
which sounds plausible,
you can explain it.
But this does not explain the spectral behavior,
the color of the moon.
So it's a controversial,
whatever theory you favor,
there are some arguments against.
And with this mission,
including getting samples back,
which really should prove what it's made of,
is it Martian material?
Is it primitive material,
which originates from the the outer solar system,
we hope to...
clarify this question,
which is fascinating and will also teach us something about the principles of formation and moon formation of terrestrial planets.
If we go a step further for a more general,
why do we do this,
including the research of comets and asteroids,
those bodies are the relics of the early times of our solar system.
Comets probably being the
oldest objects in our solar systems,
leftovers from the time of the formation.
So analyzing the material of comets shows us that the pristine,
the original material,
the original composition of the planetary nebula,
out of which the planets,
including the Earth,
but also the Sun in the center,
have formed.
And thus these are a clue to the understanding of the formation and evolution of the solar system.
as a whole.
So that's a more general scientific aspect.
Another aspect again related to comets,
but also primitive asteroids like Ryugu,
where there is a lot of organic material in there,
is related to our understanding of the formation of life.
The current understanding is that on the early Earth,
when it has chilled down after a very early phase,
where you can imagine the you're used to be a bubbling.
piece of lava,
differentiating so that the iron and the heavy components forming the core,
but outside it was very hot.
No complex molecules could have survived.
And then the Earth,
also the other planets,
chilled down.
And then there was a bombardment by primitive body,
like asteroids,
like comets,
bringing water,
bringing organic material.
And the understanding is that these organics,
which then impacted on the early Earth,
allowed the formation of even more complex molecules,
including amino acids,
RNA,
DNA,
fish,
frogs,
humans.
So it's...
key element for our understanding how could life form about 3,
3.2 billion years ago.
So,
origin of the solar system,
origin of life,
that's what we are really behind if we try to better understand comets,
primitive asteroids,
and Phobos being an example which is a moon,
but it may also be a primitive asteroid and it's also a small body and is one of the the puzzle
elements to better understand the evolution of our solar system.
Is it remotely controlled or is it totally automatic?
We will control it from Europe.
There's two control centers,
one here at
DLR, where we are sitting just downstairs here.
There is another one in Toulouse from where we can operate the rover,
where we can send commands and where we will receive the telemetry.
All telemetry,
all commands will be relayed via the Japanese mothership.
And it will also go through the Japanese control center.
But we prepare the commands and we analyze the telemetry.
So after landing,
how long is the mission?
Not in meters,
but in time.
For how long will you be on the surface and working?
Okay,
we have a little bit artificial.
requirement,
which is now 100 days.
But if the rover is healthy and operating for 100 days,
there is no good reason why it shouldn't work for 110 days or so.
It cannot work there forever because we need the main spacecraft as a relay.
But we hope that we can even extend this period.
In terms of META,
you were not asking the question.
I appreciate it because how far we can drive will strongly depend on the surface material,
the property,
the grain size,
the slopes we face there.
So we cannot really say now in meters how far we are going.
That's dependent on the area we find.
So then we're looking forward to the launch of the MMX mission.
So do you have any more missions for the future?
Well,
there is other missions.
We are involved,
for instance,
in the
HERA mission from ESA.
And this mission will go to the double asteroid Didymos.
You may remember the NASA mission DART,
which has successfully impacted on the moon of a double asteroid to demonstrate whether we are able to modify the orbit of a potentially dangerous asteroid that may hit
hit the Earth.
Didymos itself is not dangerous to hit the Earth,
but it was a demonstration.
And the European part,
HERA,
to be launched this year,
will go there,
investigate the system,
the Didymos system,
and also investigate,
for instance,
the crater the NASA DART impact has made on
Dimorphos. And we hope to have a follow-on mission in this respect,
not only focusing on signs,
but as I said,
planetary protection.
called Ramses,
and it should go to
Apophis, which is an asteroid flying very,
very close to the Earth on
Friday 13th
April 2029.
And for a while it was thought it may even hit the Earth,
which would have been very dramatic.
Now we know it will miss the Earth,
but it will give us a unique opportunity to observe an object that is really just...
Yeah,
flying by just above our heads,
closer than the geostationary satellites,
by the way,
so really,
really close.
And we are looking for having a mission,
Ramses,
to investigate this body and also investigate the modification due to some tidal forces during this flyby.
Other missions are,
for instance,
the ESA mission Comet Interceptor to be launched in...
where a space probe will be waiting in a Lagrange point for a long period of comet to come.
And once it's discovered,
we can go there with a flyby of course,
not like Rosetta,
but with a flyby and this will be a completely fresh comet which ideally has never passed by the Sun yet.
So it will be completely unmodified.
So that's at the moment what we...
We have in the pipeline,
but of course whenever there is an opportunity,
for instance to contribute in a NASA New Frontiers or Discovery mission or in a
JAXA mission,
there are plans to have missions after MMX like Hayabusa 3,
having a comet.
Sample return mission.
So nothing of this is fixed or approved right now,
but we are in early phases in preparing proposals.
And,
of course,
we would be very happy to have the opportunity again to contribute to missions of our friends in Japan or NASA or ESA,
if there is another
ESA mission,
to come beyond those I just mentioned.
Yes,
of course there will be more collaborations in the future.
And of course Sweden will be more involved.
And as I said,
we are involved.
Henrik Plymforssell gave us examples of techniques on various missions.
And in the coming episode we visit IRF,
the Institute for Space Physics,
which has several collaborations with both DLR,
JAXA and ESA and others.
That's going to be great.
Yes,
and another thing that's fun is that we've released a book.
Yes,
of course.
The book,
Have We Walked to Marsen,
is based on the content of this series and can be bought at a discounted price directly from our publisher,
Fritanke.
So go to fritanke.se and use the discount code MARS20 and you'll get 20%
discount on the book.
So it's Mars with a little m and 20 with numbers,
without a gap.
like.
You can find all the information you need on our website,
havioaktimarsen.se.
There you can also find all our episodes and links to our different series.
And our music.
It's written by Armin Pendek.
My name is Marcus Pettersson.
My name is Susanna Levenhaupt.
Havioaktimarsen is made possible by Beppo,
Avrundfunk Media in collaboration with Saab.
Hello,
the program is made by
Rundfunk Media.