Guess what?
I'm moving country again.
I don't know,
maybe a year,
maybe more.
Where's the phone?
The phone's everywhere.
I'm an expat.
Hey,
it's Pauline from UT Expats,
and today I meet with Cecile,
who is founder of Haven.
France.
After years of living in the UK,
she came back to France and experienced the dreaded reverse culture shock,
which led to this new company.
So we'll definitely be diving into those two topics,
moving to France,
but also moving back to France when you are French.
Hi,
Cecile,
how are you?
Hi,
Pauline.
I'm very well,
thank you.
But how about you?
The sun is back out in Paris,
which is nice.
Yes,
same here in the southwest.
It's really lovely.
Yeah.
Where are you in the Southwest?
Today,
I'm in Puy-sur-Guey,
which is very close to Saint-Emilion.
I'm at a client's property.
Lovely.
Close to Porto.
Nice.
Lovely one.
Well,
we'll dive into your recommendations for sure at the end.
I'm certain you have a lot.
I'll let you do a brief introduction and we'll go more into detail into your life after.
Hi,
so
I'm the founder and president of Haven in France,
a project that I built since
December 2023.
Okay,
so Haven,
born in 2023.
We'll get to that one a little bit later.
Let's go back a couple of years in the past.
How did you move to the UK in the first place?
What was the opportunity or the trigger for you?
Well...
It was in 1994 and I was studying philosophy at the University of Poitiers and a friend of mine had lived in London.
I was very much in love with the language since I was 11 years old.
There was something that really made me feel warm about the language.
All right.
Fast forward many years later,
I found out actually that I'm half British.
I had to.
My family had no idea and the whole story behind that.
So I guess probably,
you know,
when your body knows things that you don't.
There was intuition there.
So I moved there in 94,
supposedly for three months.
And after a few days,
I decided to stay at least a year.
Okay.
So
I put my studies on hold and started working.
And in the
90s.
oh my god it feels like i'm very old now in the
90s it was london was amazing because they had just finished a recession a decade and everything was possible if you wanted to work hard and not be willing to count your hours you had amazing opportunities so
that's what i did i thought well i'm i'm just going to go with the flow and anything i want to do i'm going to try to do it
I worked many jobs.
I have a CV from that experience there for 15 years that goes to three pages.
But I feel like the British,
they give people the opportunity versus France.
It's a little bit harder if you want to make switch in the UK.
Just you're motivated.
You can share.
You can do whatever you want,
which is wonderful.
Absolutely.
This is exactly like that.
and
What I've always loved in my life is learning.
Learning is so important to me.
So
I had many opportunities to learn and I took these opportunities.
So I studied photography for many years.
I went to the University of Westminster to study conceptual fine art.
In the meantime,
I was working full time.
So
I was a croupier in a luxury casino.
few years i was uh running an estate agency um with um with the owner um i had my own cafe restaurant with my ex-husband um in kings road i did many many many things so that was a that was an experience i mean i didn't see the 15 years go by yeah i can imagine changing constantly yeah it's just yeah
you all one project after the other and you know you get opportunities Peace.
If you show that you're willing to work hard,
that was how the atmosphere was at the time.
And it was really,
really amazing.
Okay.
And so what brought you back to France then after 15 years?
Well,
I was going through a very difficult divorce.
My daughter was six years old and all my friends were very kind and they were like,
maybe you should just go and rest in the south of France for a couple of years.
And eventually I thought,
well,
that's not a bad idea.
I really do miss France as well because I'm constantly surrounded by
British or other foreigners,
but I was not that much into the French community at all.
Which is pretty big,
don't you think?
Yes.
Yes,
I never lived with,
you know,
in the...
In the neighbourhoods.
In the French areas,
ever.
Okay.
So,
we moved back to France,
my daughter and I,
in the south for supposedly two years,
but then we stayed because it was very hard.
The moving was very difficult.
My daughter was six and she understood French,
but she spoke only English.
Okay.
catching up there yes yeah all right and so how was it for you this new adaptation also like helping your daughter work through this new new phase new language of
I guess divorce in the middle also doesn't help of course so it was very hard the first six months I didn't want to open the boxes because
I was in fear I was like and all my friends in London were like come back come back you can say it does.
And I was like,
I'm exhausted.
I really need to settle.
And the fact that we were close to the beach,
my daughter loved it.
I loved it too.
We needed that time,
but it was so hard because I couldn't understand the whole French system.
I couldn't understand it.
I left,
I was 22 years old.
Oh,
yeah.
Very much protected by my parents.
I was under the umbrella,
basically.
So
I didn't have...
my own social security number.
I struggled to get back.
And
I had not experienced
France as an adult,
basically.
And all my friends were already living like that in France,
but I wasn't.
So everything was hard.
I was very far from my friends.
We knew nobody there.
And then the schools were very difficult for my daughter as well.
you know,
she went through,
she went to two amazing schools in London.
The first one when she was two was Montessori,
an English Montessori school.
So she stayed there for two or three years.
And then she was at a French school in London that was bilingual and had priority for the lycée français oh yeah it was an amazing school they were
you know 16 kids in the in the in so yeah a lot of the international schools are very visible still which is nice yeah one english teacher one french teacher so it was just like yeah it was amazing it was really amazing so so the difference was quite a shock i mean for
context in french schools you're often 30 kids for one teacher so absolutely absolutely absolutely so
It was very difficult to understand how the system worked because I realized as well that my vocabulary had shrunk.
So
I was not using as much French as I used to before moving to London because I was never much with French people.
But at home with your daughter,
would you speak
French or English in London?
In London,
we would speak both.
I would spend some time speaking French for her to really understand French.
Okay.
yeah it's what they do usually they only speak the language of the country when they live in that country so she would answer me in english but i would i would often speak french still yeah we would read like two three books a night at least and one of them was in french the others were in english and you know so it was okay
yeah i'm sorry so you were saying yeah you had lost a bit of the vocabulary in this understanding the system of how things worked in France.
Yes.
It was very hard.
So it took me quite a while to understand things.
I had to reapply for the social security six times because every time something was wrong.
And so I went through the whole thing.
This is why I understand how people feel like when they move to France.
When they arrived.
Yeah.
It is hard.
It is very hard.
And so how did you sort of settle in as you went?
Because this was quite a few years ago now.
That was 2009,
yes.
Okay,
so how did you,
day after day,
month after month,
make it a bit more of your home and feel comfortable again there?
Yes,
well,
I had to do it.
I mean,
I was the only one raising my child.
I had no family.
I had no one.
So
I had to really make it through for her.
I didn't want her to suffer too much because it was already a big move when you're six years old and you have not only one country.
So,
um...
I started doing lots of research,
trying to understand things.
I made a few friends there and they advised me and I would just get as much information as possible and research as much as possible.
I love researching things,
so that's how I really got through the process.
And obviously,
I made loads of mistakes.
So,
you know,
this is the only way to learn,
mistakes.
So yeah,
that's how I did that.
Eventually,
I managed to rent an apartment and then settle slowly.
The school thing was as well a bit difficult.
But eventually,
we managed to settle and my daughter loved being on the seaside.
And that was really...
That was a highlight for you.
Yes,
that was a highlight.
Everything together.
Yes.
All right.
And so moving on to
Haven in France,
how did this project start specifically for you?
Yes.
So
I was sent for a mission in the southwest of France for a family in
Jersey who had a domain in the southwest.
And so I went there,
had a couple of months.
and then started meeting people and I realized I really love the southwest.
People are very friendly,
very kind.
The nature is just stunning.
It's beautiful.
Yeah,
it's just like,
oh,
I loved it.
So,
and what was missing in the Côte d'Azur was that it's not that easy to actually mix with several cultures.
I really missed speaking French,
English,
sorry.
Every day and then suddenly here I met loads of
British American
Dutch Belgium I mean it was very international which is something I really love and that's why I loved living in London because there's lots of different countries and cultures there and
So
I started obviously everyone wanted to ask me questions about how you how do we do this?
how do we do that and I started explaining this that that that and
I
And I was very interested in the Americans.
I started researching,
and I realized that lots of Americans live in France or come to France.
But they go to Paris,
and then they go to the Côte d'Azur.
They don't know the rest.
And every time I would ask them,
they would say,
oh,
we would love to explore the Southwest,
but where do we start?
Yeah,
there's not that much communication.
It's not as known.
internationally for sure absolutely so
I started researching a lot I started studying the whole project and then I started thinking okay well maybe I can help so
I would ask every single American I met to tell me all the problems that they've been through and find a solution for that so prior to launching the company
I worked full-time for a whole year building the
project because I wanted to answer every single question.
You know,
everything.
A visa,
insurance,
health,
properties,
you know,
events,
how to meet people,
how to build a community,
etc,
etc.
So I did that and then realized that,
you know,
a lot of people,
a lot of Americans living in Paris or the suburbs.
So,
yeah,
I started like that.
I started doing and
building this project like this.
Okay,
and so what were the frequent questions?
Were there any related more specifically to the Southwest versus a difference to just a general move anywhere in France?
Well,
it's not that there was specific...
The Southwest,
they don't know the Southwest.
They know Bordeaux wine,
and that is it.
They may have been to Bordeaux,
but not necessarily.
So they don't even have an idea,
a proper idea of...
what Southwest is like and how exciting it can actually be to move to the Southwest.
Because,
I mean,
let's be honest,
the Côte d'Azur is full.
It's saturated.
Yeah,
it's saturated.
The vibe is very different also.
It's a bit more bling than the South.
How would you describe the Southwest for an international,
actually,
who doesn't know it?
The thing I say is that there's so much kindness in the Southwest.
I've lived on the Côte d'Azur for 14 years,
so I can really see the difference.
You know the difference,
yeah.
Yes.
You know,
people here,
they kind of...
I mean,
there's one thing.
that really struck me is that you know how the French say if you do something for them and they're going to say de rien for nothing yeah in Occitanie they don't say that they say avec plaisir my pleasure it
for me it's a very yeah it's a different mindset it is a different mindset they really are kind and welcoming to people.
It's easier to make friends here,
I think.
I'm not saying it's easy,
but it's easy.
In the
Andicote d'Azur,
it's saturated,
everything is expensive.
It's quite a lot about showing off.
If you want to build a house there,
you're going to spend half a million already just for the plot.
Just for the plot,
basically.
So,
for me,
it's not worth it.
I know Americans love...
stone houses.
There are plenty of stunning stone houses,
projects or potentials in the southwest and everything is so much cheaper than over there.
So,
and the food is stunning,
the wine is stunning and the wine is stunning because it's not only Bordeaux,
it's actually Cahors.
I got a shock actually when I,
you know,
started exploring Cahors.
Cahors is just incredible.
I know a
domain there domain de la garde it's a few kilometers from carol and i mean the wine is just delicious it's a family that's been doing that uh for six generations um you know they greet you as if you're so special i mean every time i go there with my clients everyone is like my god this is amazing there
are several places like that all the
you know it's very friendly it's very kind right and so in terms of service offerings because there's all this admin piece but you're also talking about those experiences can you talk just through the a little bit quickly the panel and
why there is this more touristy approach also that you you bring of discovering new places well um what what one thing that i've realized is that um
When Americans move here,
they need to have a sense of community.
So,
you know,
some companies do the admin stuff.
It's great.
But I wanted to actually take their hands and take them with me all along the journey until they feel safe and settled properly.
You know,
so for me,
it was a question of,
you know,
starting with the questions they may have about the visa.
I've made 150 partnerships with insurances,
banks,
jets,
hotels,
four and five star hotels,
many,
many partnerships,
even partnerships in the US with a major shipping company and also chateaus in France and events.
We work on events because the idea is to...
is not to mix Americans with Americans.
There's a bit of that,
obviously,
because it always helps a bit.
But it's to mix Americans with French people,
locals,
and
Dutch,
British, whoever.
So we started doing events like that as well.
And to accompany them in the process of buying or renting.
Which is complicated here.
It is very complicated.
I found a solution for that,
for Americans to rent in France,
because it's also very difficult when you move from abroad and you build your company.
It's very hard.
Yeah.
I mean,
it's already hard for the French to find a place to rent.
So let alone a foreigner is just that challenge.
Absolutely.
So,
you know,
the idea is really to take their hands and.
accompany them until they really are secure and settled so you know my advice is always you don't need to buy your property straight away come explore see if you're ready to actually settle also and explore a little bit because
You don't know,
you may actually straight away buy.
I mean,
I came across situations where people had already reserved a house to buy in the Creuse and visited it once with lots of issues,
lots of problems,
things that were not really adequate.
And then when they explore
Occitanie, they start realizing,
oh my God,
I like that much better.
And,
you know,
so just take the time.
you know i'm here to
Me and the whole team,
we're here actually to really help people settle somewhere.
We're going to organize visits for you everywhere.
We have a whole data of places,
people,
so that you can really explore.
And after a couple of months or maybe six months,
you'll know exactly where you want to settle.
And then we can get it and start exploring houses to buy.
And then it's much better for people so that,
you know,
they really settle where they want to settle.
Yeah,
to understand the lifestyle and the different regions to find something that actually matters.
And build communities.
That is so important.
So we've done a few events so far.
We've done a gin tasting at
Franco-British Capole.
They make gin.
It's called Saint-Amand.
And they make stunning gin.
They use products from their own garden.
and from local farmers.
So we made an event that everyone loved it.
And they even,
you know,
for the gin and tonic,
the tonic is actually made in Bordeaux from another company that's making organic tonic.
And I mean,
we went just,
you know,
we've done quite a few events so far and it's just amazing.
And people start knowing each other.
It's important to,
you know,
communities,
everything.
Yeah,
it makes you feel at home.
Yeah,
it's true.
I think when you're a foreigner moving to a remote place in France,
outside large cities,
not only is the population smaller,
but there may be,
in some cases,
less use to having internationals.
It can be harder,
again,
to come in.
And you need to be able to talk.
I mean,
you know,
lots of clients tell me their stories and,
you know,
you have to be able to listen to them and empathize with them.
And I've been through it.
I've been in their shoes.
So I know exactly how they can feel.
And it's a very different culture from the US.
But I'm very familiar with the US because my previous company was in social media.
I started in 2007 when I lived in London.
And I trained with the Americans for 15 years.
So
I know how they are and what they like and what's important to them.
France is a great idea,
but it's a very different culture for them.
Yeah,
they do need to have someone or a community to be friends with and listen to.
So a little earlier in the conversation,
you described the vibe of southwest of France.
Is there anything specific you think people can expect?
or should be expecting from moving to this region versus Paris or versus the South?
Well,
the pace is much slower.
The pace is much slower.
So you have to really,
if you come here,
it's really to have a slower lifestyle and,
you know,
take your time.
People,
you know,
they have lunch in their houses or at the restaurant.
They do enjoy going to the market on the weekend.
It's all these little things like the lifestyle is much slower.
They aren't going to close the shops at 7pm max or 5pm depending.
They're not going to be open on Mondays.
It's a bit of a shock culture when they arrive there.
Otherwise,
you have a year to actually start.
the process of learning the French code,
the theory test,
and you go through a driving test as well.
And that needs to be done pretty quickly.
So,
you know,
if you are coming from a state where there's no equivalence in France,
then you have to really prepare for that.
Because if you live in a countryside,
you know,
you need a car.
You're going to need a car.
Most of the cities,
yeah,
in the area.
That's true.
Which is a big difference from maybe some places in the
South Riviera where you still have some large cities.
Yes.
Yeah.
And also another thing as well is that,
which is sometimes very surprising for Americans,
is that when you purchase a house,
it takes longer here and you have to have a notaire.
And one thing that I tell every single client,
when you purchase a house,
the seller will have their own notaire.
I would strongly advise you take your own notaire.
It's very,
very important.
it will be much better for your sake.
They will defend your interest a lot more.
I've seen some patients where...
Mistake made in the past.
All right.
Well,
let's move on to your recommendations.
So what is a bar or cafe that you would recommend?
So there's one that I absolutely love.
It's in a village,
a very international village called Montcuc,
M-O-N-T-C-U-C-U,
sorry,
in the Lotte department.
And it's called Café Broc.
And what it is,
it's a building that is a brocante.
The owner,
Séverine,
she's made a coffee shop inside the brocante and it's just stunning.
She has exquisite taste.
Anyone who loves brocante,
French brocante,
will adore the place.
She's very attentive to details.
And also,
she's an interior designer,
actually.
That'd be nice.
If you want her to sort,
I mean,
decorate your house,
she'll be the perfect person if you like brocante stuff.
And she works with someone who actually is an expert in café.
So,
like,
slow coffee.
all these things.
It's like,
you know,
he,
he's amazing.
We're going to specialty coffee as well.
Yes.
Very.
Yeah.
And,
um,
we are going to do an event soon actually about coffee and coffee tasting.
And what do we,
what do we,
um,
eat with coffee and,
you know,
like nimbles and all little cakes or whatever,
biscuits.
Um,
this is,
I mean,
for people who love coffee,
personally,
I love the smell of coffee,
but I don't,
I don't drink coffee.
He made me actually drink a little bit of coffee.
Enjoy.
But it's a great place.
So it's called Café Broc and really is something to experience.
I really love that place.
Okay.
And what about restaurants?
There's two restaurants that I absolutely love.
In the same village,
there's
Café du Centre and Sylvain is the owner.
And Sylvain lived in London for many,
many years,
roughly the same times as I was there.
We didn't know each other at the time.
And he worked for
Michelin star restaurants there.
So he's very talented.
It's a great atmosphere.
He's got really great food.
So it's called Café du Centre.
And there's also another one that is a gem and hidden.
This place I've discovered a few weeks ago.
And I'm like...
Oh my god,
it's in a village very close,
it's called Touffailles.
T-O-U-F-F-A-I-L-L-E-S.
I think I get it.
Yeah,
Touffailles in Tarn-et-Garonne.
And the place is called
Aux Petits Moissac.
Petits,
but instead it's T-O-I-S-S-A-C.
Aux Petits Moissac.
You would never ever guess where it is.
You know,
you go there,
you actually arrive at a big property and you're like,
is that a restaurant?
It's only at lunchtime,
so you have to book a while.
There's only one menu.
You arrive there,
you enter through the kitchen and you're like,
OK,
where am I going?
So and then just behind it is a gorgeous room with a massive fireplace.
he cooks the meat in the fireplace and there's only 20 seats.
There's one menu,
20 seats and you have no idea what you're going to eat.
Yeah.
You're on the spot.
The food is stunning,
really stunning.
It's like,
oh my god,
the basic.
It's really,
this is what I love as well about the Southwest is that you discover loads of little gems like this and you're like,
it's amazing.
I love that.
All right.
Bonus question,
what is your favorite experience that you've,
or event that you've organized with one of your partners?
I loved the gin tasting.
It was tasting.
That was great.
Other events that I'm building,
actually,
with someone,
I know one of my clients,
she's Madame Fromage.
If you check Madame Fromage,
you'll find her at Tenaya,
Darlington.
And she's an expert in cheese.
So she's moving to France currently.
And we are going to make events at specific places in the South.
and she's the one who's going to teach us what cheese goes well with that alcohol.
I'm not saying we'll be very fresh.
It's so exciting.
I mean,
she's so knowledgeable.
It's amazing.
You'll find her easily on Instagram.
She's got like
25K followers.
Yeah,
she's very,
very passionate about that.
So these are events that I love,
little events like this,
and they're just great.
Okay,
great.
They sound exciting and well tailored.
And last,
what is your expat song?
This one song that really followed me a lot is from Jean-Jacques Goldman,
Ta Chance.
Ah,
so your luck,
yeah.
Ta Chance,
yes.
I just thought of this one straight away.
I was listening to that song a lot when I moved to
England.
And yeah,
it stayed with me.
you had to stay with me but it does seem like you just tried every opportunity seized every opportunity and went for the luck so yeah the way you told your story it completely resonates for if it matches what you've what you've said yes i just i've learned i've learned during i
mean the last 30 years that i mean you know when we say life is short it's like oh life is short yes okay but actually life is really short
It seems to be long when we're like 20,
30,
but then suddenly when you're halfway,
so life is short and then,
I mean,
you really have to take every single opportunity.
You know,
it doesn't mean that it's not,
I do things in fear sometimes,
but I do them because I don't want to have regrets.
It's important to really,
you know,
take opportunities.
If you have a good feeling,
if you have a good intuition about this.
just go for it go for it but go for it i i was i had a brilliant life in london it was amazing and in france new life in france oh absolutely and i wouldn't want you know i've been asked several times you want to move here do you remember no no no i want to stay there and i really stay in the southwest now i'm like yeah not moving at
all okay wonderful well thank you so much for sharing i'll link everything in the
in the comments,
the locations,
but also the website.
Yes,
we actually launched a new website yesterday.
So the new one will be linked.
Perfect for anyone who wants to connect and also Madame Fromage's Instagram,
because I'm sure there's a lot of cheese lovers.
I mean,
cheese and wine,
we're going to do loads of events like that.
It's lovely.
Thank you very much,
Pauline,
for having me.
It was a pleasure.
You're welcome.
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