guess what i'm moving country again i don't know maybe a year maybe more where's
home home's everywhere i'm an expat hi it's pauline welcome to a new episode of meet the expats
Today I meet with Dr.
Elephant
Yanni who is a psychologist working with expats and international couples.
So we will be covering the realities of expat life and how it can really take a toll on your effective life and your relationships.
So hi,
how are you today?
Hi,
nice to meet you Pauline,
nice having me on your podcast.
Hi to everybody everywhere.
So yes,
I work with a lot of expats being in Singapore.
People come here from everywhere and mostly to work.
Okay,
mostly to work.
And sometimes there is some friction about the situation because it's not always easy for both partners.
Yeah,
absolutely.
We'll dive into that.
But first,
let's go back a little bit to
yourself.
So you come from Switzerland,
but you're currently living in Singapore.
Can we go back to this big move,
how it happened?
What brought you to Singapore specifically?
In fact,
I didn't begin with Singapore.
My first move was to Canada.
And I spent four years in Canada.
And after that,
I moved to
Korea, Seoul.
and also for four years.
And now
I'm for a lot of more years in Singapore.
And it was very interesting.
All the journeys,
all the discovery was very interesting.
But I have to say,
of course,
I love Singapore a lot.
I love Korea a lot.
I have a lot of affection for Korea.
But Singapore is really a nice place to live.
that's why yeah a bit more international perhaps than yes you know for example when you live in korea it's maybe easier now because from time to time i go back to visit my friends but
at the time where we were living in korea it was very difficult to find western food okay now it's different.
Oh,
right.
Yeah.
But when we arrived in Singapore,
it was
oh my god we can find everything okay japanese food korean food but western food also indian food on top no it was really great it was really uh yeah a
new expansion of uh everything okay korea it was really a a good discovery for me because i was able to go to a buddhist temple have some friend
non-French,
who helped me to discover the
Korean culture.
And I did a lot of meditation there.
So
I had some perfection of my own methodology about meditation,
how I can use it.
But truly,
Singapore is something different.
Really,
it's international.
For everything you want,
you find it in Singapore.
Everything is possible.
Yes,
exactly.
And what drove or motivated all these moves abroad?
I would say first family,
okay?
And also the fact that it was already difficult for me to stay in Switzerland by the fact that it was difficult to work here.
First in the academic and after that on the clinical aspect.
You know,
you have to measure...
As a psychologist?
Yes.
In
Switzerland, it's complicated?
Yeah,
it's very complicated because it's like they try to reserve the therapy market for medical doctors only.
So it will become more and more difficult.
And it was easier for me to work abroad.
as a clinical psychologist.
But even as a researcher,
because when I leave
Switzerland, I was a researcher and teaching at the University of Geneva.
Even on this side,
you still have to move to prove yourself abroad.
In fact,
Singapore got me and now
I'm pleased to be in Singapore.
So sorry for my Swiss friends,
but yeah,
life is good in Singapore.
Less snow for sure.
Yeah,
of course.
The weather is not always great,
but going back to
Switzerland from time to time,
it's fine.
Okay,
great.
Well.
I understand you've had a lot of expat experiences,
which probably explains my next question,
but still I'm going to ask it.
How did you start working with expats specifically or what drove you to that specific case?
When I was in Korea,
I worked at the Jewish community.
And then...
In Korea,
you don't find a psychologist or psychotherapy.
So if you are not an American soldier and you can have a psychologist on the base,
you need to find someone.
And even if you are not Jewish,
I saw a lot of Westerners at the Jewish community.
All kinds of people.
And of course,
some people come alone,
but some people have had some couple trouble.
So I began to work with couples as well,
because I was already working with more individual therapy before.
So,
yeah,
and from the start,
okay,
I see very difficult situation where you have the husband coming for a job.
And at the same time,
you follow,
but you don't have anything to do in this country.
you don't speak the language,
Korean is very difficult to learn,
you don't understand the society.
The situation for foreigners is dualistic in Korea.
At the same time they envy you as a westerner,
but at the same time they hate you as a foreigner.
So why would they hate you in a way?
Because Korea is for Koreans,
K for K,
as they say.
So the Korean society is a very close society.
It's also a very close market for big companies.
They have their own internet.
It's not easy to meet people in Korea.
Whatever you do,
you always stay a foreigner.
And if you want to integrate
It's like you meet a wall.
You have to accept your situation as a foreigner and enjoy the on this side and forget the other side.
Most of the time,
Korean people are nice,
but they are very direct.
So how can couples and specifically partners try to integrate or at least make the most?
of their time there.
I will believe that one of the main way to get out will be to meet other foreigners.
So there is some group and even some Korean try to make some international group,
you know,
like you can meet other people,
even some coffee to learn Korean.
in fact
it's also a way to meet other people.
Of course.
On buses also,
they organize some festivities for national holidays or anything.
Yes.
It's always a way to meet people.
And I must say that for myself,
what mostly worked was my interest for meditation.
Through meditation,
I was able to meet other foreigners who were also interested in meditation.
And to meet also some Korean,
strangely,
a lot of...
Most Koreans don't speak English,
even if they try all their life to learn.
From very young,
I don't know exactly why,
but for them it's very difficult.
As for us,
it's very difficult to learn Korean.
But in the temples,
I met a lot of
Koreans speaking English.
So it was also interesting for me to enter the culture.
better understand.
And you know,
Korean people,
they're very proud of their culture.
So if you show some interest...
Yeah.
They're open,
okay?
And the friends you have in Korea...
Yeah,
they'll be thrilled to share.
Yeah,
exactly.
And the friends you have in Korea,
once they decide to be your friend,
it's friend for life,
you know?
A lot of expats,
they suffer.
They suffer because,
you know,
as an expat,
some of them,
they don't even try to invest in other people.
because they think,
you know,
why would I make some effort in one year?
She will not be here or anything.
Okay.
You know,
expat people move a lot.
Okay.
But in this situation,
you meet real friends.
Okay.
They decide to take responsibility for you.
Okay.
It's the way of doing things,
which is different.
But as an expat,
you can meet a lot of people like this,
you know.
Having some interest,
you share the same interest with other foreigners,
with some native people of the country where you are.
It's true in
Singapore too.
You meet people through your own interest.
Yeah,
okay.
But you have to be active.
Yeah,
so meeting people,
finding those groups.
Of course,
yeah,
you have to be proactive in the interest and in going to.
make them work yeah exactly exactly but i mean once you are moving like this no proactive but in your own interest let's say you have a hobby you want to learn to draw or you want to learn kayak or anything okay go to a group and meet other people and and at the same time you're
not shy because you're not here to meet the other people you're here for your common interest yeah
Okay.
Going back to the effective tools,
we talked a little bit about the loneliness piece and how to overcome that specifically.
You mentioned,
so it's very difficult often for what we call the trailing spouse in a way,
because they have this isolation with no work.
Within the couple specifically on the effective side,
what imbalance or difficulties can this?
How does it manifest itself?
Okay.
There is something for men called the provider complex.
Okay.
So men,
they try to do something for the couple and for the family,
working hard,
earning a lot of income.
Okay.
But the problem doing so,
if they go too far,
they lose their family.
They lose the very reason why they work so hard.
because while the
so often absent from home,
children become foreign for them,
for him.
And he becomes foreign for his own children.
And his wife is bored.
She takes care of the children,
but she has no adults to converse,
to spend some time.
It's a really dangerous situation.
If you don't work on your couple,
your family will be dysfunctional.
To have a functional family,
first you have to have both partners able to stay alone on their two feet,
which means they don't need someone.
But they decide to be a couple.
They decide to be a team and to create a family.
And then the couple has to be functional.
That means you have to exist as a couple,
not only as parents.
Okay.
So that means you have to...
So the relationship between the two on top.
Exactly.
You have to cherish this couple time.
Okay.
Gardening your couple time.
Okay.
So that means not only go out as a family,
but from time to time also go out.
as a couple and find yourself again together.
Okay.
So if you work too much,
you don't have time for your partner and you don't have time for your children.
Okay.
And you're losing them.
Yes.
So you think you have a future for them?
No,
you're losing them.
Okay.
And yeah,
it can work like this for some time.
but after some time
the woman will be so upset that she decides she cannot stand this anymore.
And at the same time,
what kind of model do you give to your children?
Because if both partners are unsatisfied by the situation,
what will happen?
You yell at each other,
you have a lot of resentment,
and it's becoming more and more difficult to find yourself together again.
And there is also the situation that
You can decide just to ignore the problem and be a roommate or flatmate in the same space.
But it's not the future you want for yourself or for your school.
It's not ideal.
So you really have to think about balance.
Yes,
you want to have a good career.
Yes,
you want to earn money.
Yes,
but...
For one,
do you do all of this?
And so do you see it more,
this situation happening more often with expat couples or if they're internationals with different culture because there is this case where there's the work imbalance?
Or,
I mean,
this could be the case even for non-expats,
but I'm just asking,
is there a higher statistic when you are in that expat?
Yes,
it's higher for expats for the good reason that most of the time,
one has a job and the second one tries to find a job.
It's not always a husband.
Sometimes it's a wife who gets a better position abroad.
So they decide to move.
And after some time,
you know,
it's become difficult because she's earning a lot of money.
And okay,
taking care of their kids was not my career plan.
So yes,
I did it for some time,
but now...
Yeah,
that's when the resentment starts.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
And also,
I'm a provider and I feel diminished because I have the situation of taking care of the children.
It's not always true,
but very often,
very often,
you have a rare exception,
but most of the time it's like this.
So,
yeah,
it's quite difficult for expats.
Yeah.
So you talk about finding that balance of work and finding the time both for family and couple.
Are there things maybe before a move or early on in the move that the families or couples can do just to prepare for this potential situation and prevent it?
Okay,
I will say that in Singapore,
there is something
great for family is the fact that it's not difficult to have an helper or a maid home,
taking care of the children and the house.
And it's really cheap to have someone working for you.
So this,
you have to be ready coming to Singapore to hire someone.
And in fact,
you find some Westerners who cannot do it.
because it's not something that I'm used to,
for example,
in Europe.
And they feel like,
oh no,
I'm not a boss.
I cannot hire someone.
I feel like I'm not a privilege that I can hire someone to take care of my kids and home.
So it's like a social complex.
If you hire someone,
that means you go on the other side.
You're not a worker anymore.
you become a boss.
Okay,
the social status.
So for some people it's difficult,
but
I do believe that if you take advantage of this situation that you have in Singapore,
it could help the couple and the family a lot.
Yeah,
for sure.
You find more time,
more balance,
and you're not reduced to the chores of the house.
Exactly,
exactly.
So why not?
Take advantage of this situation you have in Singapore.
Okay?
So yes,
if you have to get prepared,
it's about this.
And also remember,
it's nice to be far away from your own parents.
You know,
we still have some difficulties with our own parents.
So we are happy to be far away.
Okay?
So we don't have the mother-in-law on the back and all the story.
But when you have children,
grandparents can be a good help also.
It also means that you're far from the grandparents and from that help that you would have.
Yeah.
So hiring an helper is good.
Okay.
And truly,
I do believe that this can be an help that you can find when you're in Singapore.
Yes,
you can hire someone in Korea,
but the system is not so easy to hire someone.
And
I would say that...
Not having your family around can be an advantage,
okay?
Because it's like you become a closer team working together,
but you don't have also this possibility of mediation if there is some difficulty between you,
you know?
Oh,
right.
Venting to your mother that your husband is too often absent,
okay?
It's not something you can do.
when you are on the phone and you don't want them to worry about you.
So this is also something you can think about.
So yes.
Yeah,
you don't have that buffer or that support system that you usually have,
mentally at least.
Exactly.
And I would say my advice about this is listen to your good feeling.
Okay?
If you think you need help,
don't wait too long with a lot of resentment.
to build up,
okay?
Go meet someone and open up and if you have a medium it could be much easier for you to just find the way to be together again,
okay?
Because sometimes when you have this wall of resentment something breaks and after it becomes more and more difficult to find yourself together again
So don't wait for a sentiment.
This will be my main advice for couples.
If you think,
if you feel,
but not if you think,
if you feel that you need help,
don't wait too long.
So to recap would be find your interests and meet people,
find friends.
Make time for a couple,
family,
as much as possible,
and get help,
both the support,
the help for house chores,
the children,
but also mental health if you feel that you need it.
Exactly,
exactly.
And I believe that,
yes,
it's more difficult for expats,
but at the same time,
expats belong to the same country,
expat country.
That means expats from all over the world,
they know the same situation.
So strangely,
someone from Australia,
someone from England,
someone from Germany have more in common than two persons living in the same country.
Yeah,
there's that invisible bond that we've gone through the same challenge.
Yes,
exactly.
So,
for example,
if you want to meet people,
Through our common interests,
it's much easier.
You know,
it's like we can be friends much easier just because we are both expats.
Yeah,
because we like the same thing.
Yes,
yes,
exactly.
So this is a particular situation,
but
I mean,
this is great.
OK,
we can learn so much more being expats.
We can learn so much more on our own culture.
own country.
So yes,
being expat is something great.
And you know,
for some of you now,
listen to Pauline and me speaking about being expat,
and you are struggling because you are abroad now,
and you say,
oh,
I should never leave.
Okay.
Remember,
one day when you'll be back home,
You will regret the time you had.
and not taking advantage of the time you have abroad.
Yeah,
dream is always greener somewhere else,
okay?
But being expat is something great.
I should say that,
you know,
here we try to speak about,
oh,
the difficulties of expat situation.
But don't forget,
okay,
it's a coin with two sides.
We have a lot of advantage being expat,
no?
particularly in Singapore.
But okay,
in other countries too.
I will not say it.
Great.
Well,
let's move on to your recommendations in Singapore then.
What would be a bar or cafe,
restaurant?
Yeah,
yeah.
So,
first for Singapore,
I will say not a restaurant because we have a lot,
all kind of food.
But there is something very particular that I love in Singapore is food court.
Okay?
Food court where you can find different kind of food.
You know,
some of them,
they're even on the
Michelin Guide.
Okay,
so they're very good.
Really?
Yeah,
yeah,
truly.
Wow.
But my favorite,
because
I think it's really something you have to try if you come to Singapore,
is the East Coast Lagoon Food Village.
Why?
Because East Coast is really nice,
particularly in the evening.
Okay.
And this is a really nice place to have any kind of food you like.
And as I said before,
in Singapore,
you can find all kinds of food.
And in food court,
generally,
not generally,
always,
you have all kinds of food,
Chinese,
Malaysian,
Indian.
So this is a great place.
Okay,
so next,
I will recommend a bar,
but this is a completely different scene.
And this is called the Atlas Bar,
but not
so much because of the bar,
even if I like the kind of drink you can have there,
but for the architecture of the building.
The architecture of the building,
and it's very singular.
You know,
in Singapore,
we have a lot of interesting architecture,
but this one is Art Deco architecture,
and it's really beautiful.
Outside,
inside,
it's something to see once in a lifetime.
So I will recommend the Atlas Bar.
This is my favorite.
Okay.
When I have friends coming to Singapore,
I take them there because it's something really to see once.
This is special indeed.
Yes,
yes,
truly.
It's really a beautiful building in the
Art Deco style,
but beautiful.
Even in Europe,
I'm not sure we have so beautiful.
Okay.
And the last one,
the café.
So I would recommend the Tiong Bahru Bakery because this is really for expat people.
It's like fusion cooking.
You can have your French pastries with a turmeric latte.
This is perfect.
Absolutely perfect.
And it represents really fusion cooking.
That's it.
full international experience yeah okay great exactly and so last is what is your expat song so expat song again represent a kind of fusion and the song is called fleeting future and
the the musician is akusmi in fact it's a french guy living in london when you see here is a name you don't think french guy but it's his artist name
and the song is fleeting future so so why this choice how does it resonate because it's resonated a lot with my own methodology that i use in psychotherapy you
know i create the 3d human therapy based on affect and affect is a fleeting feeling that you have every 250 milliseconds
So you have an affect,
you have an affect,
you have an affect.
In fact,
affect is a fabric of your life.
And outside of affect,
you have nothing.
It's really what you feel every 250 milliseconds.
All right.
This is really the fleeting moment.
So when you hear fleeting future,
you know,
it's really this.
What you decide every moment will decide of the next moment.
Impacts the rest.
Exactly.
And in psychotherapy,
when you understand how you function with your feeling space and your thinking space,
and with your two brain,
your good brain and your head brain,
and how you can work again in synergy.
and creating again a bridge between your two spaces,
and be unified again,
not an alien to yourself.
Okay.
and not in internal conflict at all time.
Being able to decide for yourself,
not needing validation.
The whole thing is in this title,
Fitting Futures.
Okay.
All right.
Well,
we'll link it in the comments as well as all your recommendations.
Dr.
Elephant Yanni,
thank you so much for sharing.
Yeah,
I want to add something.
I have a free guide that I can share with everyone because I think that the well-being program
I put in place
could be helpful for a lot of people and it's free so enjoy it and the free guide is called 3d human therapy a user guide to who you are and you can download it from www
psychology experts point online slash
3d form we'll put that in the comments footnotes also okay this little book give you four a tooth
that you can use alone to help yourself and grow and get time after time how you can be psychologically independent and
those tools are the tools i use with my patients and they can be used by everyone and they can do a lot for everyone great well definitely will be added we'll share
And feel free to go and download that guide.
Thank you,
Pauline.
Thank you for sharing your method,
for sharing this guide and all your tips around and the whole explanation behind the frustration and the imbalance that can happen when you are in this expat world and as a couple,
as a couple being expats also,
how difficult it can be.
The fact that you can get out of it,
there are guides and methods to get out of that situation.
Absolutely.
And you don't despair,
okay?
Just think,
what do you love?
What is your interest?
Go for it.
Don't wait for anyone to do it for yourself.
Go for it.
Meet other people through your interest.
And discover yourself by the way.
Yes,
absolutely.
Guys,
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
As usual,
if you enjoyed,
please put a rating on Apple Podcast or Spotify.
You can also support the podcast through Leetee and reach me through Podmatch.
All the updates will be on Instagram.