WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.797 --> 00:00:09.679 It's summer, 2 00:00:09.961 --> 00:00:15.621 and it's time for another interview that can stand and carry itself. 3 00:00:16.504 --> 00:00:17.449 And he can do it, 4 00:00:17.683 --> 00:00:18.004 Hans. 5 00:00:18.668 --> 00:00:19.590 Sure. 6 00:00:19.605 --> 00:00:20.215 A few weeks ago, 7 00:00:20.216 --> 00:00:21.855 I led a conversation at Saab, 8 00:00:22.027 --> 00:00:23.840 where we talked to Hans Königsman, 9 00:00:24.293 --> 00:00:24.996 space engineer, 10 00:00:25.293 --> 00:00:26.371 system specialist, 11 00:00:26.761 --> 00:00:30.183 and one of the key people behind SpaceX's success. 12 00:00:30.184 --> 00:00:30.293 Yes. 13 00:00:31.092 --> 00:00:33.894 He was the fourth person to be employed in the company. 14 00:00:33.895 --> 00:00:37.779 And together with three colleagues and a credit card, 15 00:00:38.177 --> 00:00:39.119 they started. 16 00:00:39.142 --> 00:00:40.525 It's an exciting story. 17 00:00:40.541 --> 00:00:42.220 My name is Marcus Pettersson. 18 00:00:42.221 --> 00:00:44.142 My name is Susanna Levenhout. 19 00:00:44.463 --> 00:00:45.088 And you're listening to 20 00:00:45.549 --> 00:00:46.845 Have We Gone to Mars? 21 00:00:58.272 --> 00:01:06.459 I almost two decades worked his king's man on SpaceX as vice president of build and flight reliability. 22 00:01:07.358 --> 00:01:10.186 He has been with and constructed rockets from the ground, 23 00:01:10.241 --> 00:01:19.006 easy fire and developed the reuse technique that has actually changed how the world sees space travel. 24 00:01:19.834 --> 00:01:21.241 And he has failed. 25 00:01:22.022 --> 00:01:23.334 Blown rockets, 26 00:01:23.491 --> 00:01:24.303 lost parts. 27 00:01:24.776 --> 00:01:25.417 And from all this, 28 00:01:25.418 --> 00:01:28.120 he learned how to build something that actually holds. 29 00:01:28.620 --> 00:01:30.222 From Falcon 1 to Falcon 9. 30 00:01:30.223 --> 00:01:33.503 And in connection with the fact that he was in Sweden, 31 00:01:33.527 --> 00:01:35.683 we of course agreed to talk to him. 32 00:01:35.730 --> 00:01:38.550 And I think we'll start from the beginning. 33 00:01:39.253 --> 00:01:39.573 Hans, 34 00:01:40.253 --> 00:01:41.933 how did you end up at SpaceX? 35 00:01:42.448 --> 00:01:42.573 So, 36 00:01:43.089 --> 00:01:43.730 I got a call. 37 00:01:44.011 --> 00:01:44.698 I was in the kitchen. 38 00:01:44.761 --> 00:01:46.652 I picked up and Elon was on the other line. 39 00:01:47.152 --> 00:01:49.964 Asked if I'm interested in working with a new company and I said yes. 40 00:01:50.683 --> 00:01:52.183 And how did Elon get your number? 41 00:01:52.492 --> 00:01:52.933 Longer story. 42 00:01:53.914 --> 00:01:54.034 So 43 00:01:54.633 --> 00:01:57.336 I ran into him a couple of weeks before that. 44 00:01:57.696 --> 00:02:00.922 We met at the amateur rocket weekend in Mojave. 45 00:02:01.618 --> 00:02:01.860 And 46 00:02:02.485 --> 00:02:06.024 I guess I just shook his hand and introduced myself or something like that. 47 00:02:06.290 --> 00:02:08.508 And then he heard my name from two other people. 48 00:02:09.290 --> 00:02:10.008 And then he thought, 49 00:02:10.071 --> 00:02:10.274 well, 50 00:02:10.883 --> 00:02:11.868 maybe I give the guy a call. 51 00:02:12.274 --> 00:02:13.618 And then so after I said yes, 52 00:02:13.915 --> 00:02:15.602 he came by and interviewed me really. 53 00:02:16.477 --> 00:02:17.618 So he actually did. 54 00:02:18.399 --> 00:02:18.618 I mean, 55 00:02:18.619 --> 00:02:19.915 it's pretty known that this. 56 00:02:20.248 --> 00:02:21.210 interview was at my house. 57 00:02:22.733 --> 00:02:22.853 So 58 00:02:23.355 --> 00:02:27.562 I sent everybody away and then I had a two-hour interview with Elon. 59 00:02:29.003 --> 00:02:32.448 And how big was SpaceX at the time you got this call? 60 00:02:32.894 --> 00:02:33.550 They were... 61 00:02:33.804 --> 00:02:50.213 three people and with me there were four people and i say we were four people and a credit card we did have the money basically that's what i'm saying so you had four four people a credit card and an id what was the id that from the beginning so from the beginning elon wanted to um make 62 00:02:50.244 --> 00:03:00.525 humanity interplanetary or basically go to mars i think that's what it what it translates to and um the their first action was to basically develop a rocket 63 00:03:00.908 --> 00:03:01.668 A small one, 64 00:03:01.708 --> 00:03:02.728 but that's what we could do. 65 00:03:03.189 --> 00:03:05.308 We could barely do that with the money that we had. 66 00:03:06.109 --> 00:03:08.289 And then basically build a bigger rocket after that, 67 00:03:08.290 --> 00:03:09.711 and then build a bigger rocket after that. 68 00:03:10.547 --> 00:03:11.273 And if you look back, 69 00:03:11.312 --> 00:03:11.547 I mean, 70 00:03:11.570 --> 00:03:13.008 that's kind of what SpaceX did, 71 00:03:13.109 --> 00:03:13.492 exactly. 72 00:03:13.992 --> 00:03:14.851 Build a small rocket, 73 00:03:14.891 --> 00:03:15.430 Falcon 1, 74 00:03:15.891 --> 00:03:16.672 build a bigger rocket, 75 00:03:16.711 --> 00:03:17.375 Falcon 9, 76 00:03:17.750 --> 00:03:19.578 then build an intermediate big rocket, 77 00:03:19.625 --> 00:03:20.687 which is Falcon Heavy, 78 00:03:21.266 --> 00:03:23.094 and then building the really big rocket now, 79 00:03:23.141 --> 00:03:23.406 which is 80 00:03:24.172 --> 00:03:25.328 Starship. Yes, 81 00:03:25.469 --> 00:03:25.641 and... 82 00:03:25.952 --> 00:03:26.592 In the beginning, 83 00:03:26.593 --> 00:03:30.653 when you got this call and you talked to Elon and he told you he was going to Mars, 84 00:03:30.915 --> 00:03:31.293 basically, 85 00:03:32.012 --> 00:03:32.692 this vision, 86 00:03:32.793 --> 00:03:34.915 was it science fiction or did it feel realistic? 87 00:03:35.352 --> 00:03:35.571 I mean, 88 00:03:35.572 --> 00:03:37.875 of course it was science fiction and crazy at the time. 89 00:03:38.297 --> 00:03:39.172 But on the other side, 90 00:03:39.196 --> 00:03:39.438 I mean, 91 00:03:39.836 --> 00:03:42.743 here's a guy who actually puts some money on the table and wants to build a rocket. 92 00:03:42.758 --> 00:03:43.008 I mean, 93 00:03:43.649 --> 00:03:44.118 who's gonna, 94 00:03:44.243 --> 00:03:44.508 you know, 95 00:03:45.196 --> 00:03:46.071 look at the details here? 96 00:03:47.290 --> 00:03:47.461 Right, 97 00:03:47.462 --> 00:03:49.196 the big picture was definitely the right thing. 98 00:03:49.976 --> 00:03:52.299 So if you work in the industry, 99 00:03:52.799 --> 00:03:57.182 and the way this usually works is you write long proposals and half of them gets denied, 100 00:03:57.244 --> 00:03:59.162 and then you end up with a tiny, 101 00:04:00.162 --> 00:04:03.467 small amount that never is big enough to actually do what you want to do. 102 00:04:04.233 --> 00:04:07.787 And so here's somebody who privately wants to spend his money. 103 00:04:08.600 --> 00:04:10.053 And if he wants to go to Mars, 104 00:04:11.490 --> 00:04:13.662 that's a nice mission in the long run. 105 00:04:14.787 --> 00:04:15.397 But obviously, 106 00:04:15.944 --> 00:04:19.365 I was actually more interested in just getting a small rocket. 107 00:04:19.788 --> 00:04:22.229 with a small number of people worked out. 108 00:04:22.308 --> 00:04:23.249 Can you actually do that? 109 00:04:23.288 --> 00:04:25.290 Can you build a rocket with 200 people? 110 00:04:25.810 --> 00:04:26.829 That's what I was interested in. 111 00:04:27.349 --> 00:04:27.470 Yeah, 112 00:04:27.471 --> 00:04:33.474 and can you take us through the process from that first day of work to the Falcon 1, 113 00:04:33.630 --> 00:04:34.208 if you start there? 114 00:04:34.411 --> 00:04:34.528 Yeah, 115 00:04:34.529 --> 00:04:34.653 I mean, 116 00:04:34.654 --> 00:04:36.692 the first thing we did is start working on the engines, 117 00:04:37.630 --> 00:04:38.771 start working on the gas generator. 118 00:04:38.817 --> 00:04:40.911 I think within a couple of weeks, 119 00:04:40.912 --> 00:04:42.380 we were firing gas generators, 120 00:04:42.427 --> 00:04:44.099 which is the power source for the pump. 121 00:04:45.614 --> 00:04:48.114 And I tried to build a computer so that we can 122 00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:50.903 control the gas generator, 123 00:04:50.923 --> 00:04:51.343 basically. 124 00:04:52.204 --> 00:04:52.544 Yeah, 125 00:04:52.665 --> 00:04:55.005 we were pretty much into hardware right away. 126 00:04:56.407 --> 00:04:56.970 It's interesting. 127 00:04:56.985 --> 00:04:57.165 I mean, 128 00:04:57.368 --> 00:05:00.454 the other side of this is you're mostly busy hiring people. 129 00:05:01.138 --> 00:05:12.437 That's your main job and so my main job was actually hiring people for for the avionics and software and flight safety and guidance and control department. 130 00:05:13.023 --> 00:05:17.875 So how long did it take from day one till the first rocket could be launched? 131 00:05:17.906 --> 00:05:20.578 Let's see we started out in 2002, 132 00:05:20.579 --> 00:05:21.219 I started actually in May, 133 00:05:22.078 --> 00:05:26.547 May 2002 and we had the rocket ready to launch in 134 00:05:27.437 --> 00:05:30.125 March 2006. 135 00:05:30.618 --> 00:05:31.759 It feels pretty short now, 136 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:34.061 but it was a long time then. 137 00:05:35.022 --> 00:05:35.584 It's amazing. 138 00:05:35.604 --> 00:05:36.143 It's four years. 139 00:05:36.385 --> 00:05:36.604 Well, 140 00:05:36.944 --> 00:05:37.284 I mean, 141 00:05:37.584 --> 00:05:38.588 still four full years. 142 00:05:39.002 --> 00:05:39.268 I mean, 143 00:05:39.269 --> 00:05:40.549 it's like 1,200 days, 144 00:05:40.588 --> 00:05:40.768 right? 145 00:05:42.768 --> 00:05:42.893 Yeah, 146 00:05:42.932 --> 00:05:43.049 no. 147 00:05:43.307 --> 00:05:43.534 I mean, 148 00:05:43.549 --> 00:05:46.510 there's obviously lots of engine development in there. 149 00:05:47.299 --> 00:05:48.299 You get to build the structure, 150 00:05:48.315 --> 00:05:48.877 which is big. 151 00:05:49.049 --> 00:05:51.518 And then all the electronics, 152 00:05:51.705 --> 00:05:52.096 software, 153 00:05:52.252 --> 00:05:52.596 everything. 154 00:05:53.987 --> 00:05:56.455 We did everything pretty much ourselves. 155 00:05:56.456 --> 00:05:58.065 We didn't buy many things. 156 00:05:58.502 --> 00:05:58.830 And why? 157 00:06:00.054 --> 00:06:02.678 It's just hard to get and most of the stuff is too expensive. 158 00:06:03.799 --> 00:06:05.900 The whole problem with space is actually cost. 159 00:06:08.142 --> 00:06:09.783 And if you do buy components, 160 00:06:09.846 --> 00:06:11.142 you're not helping your cost. 161 00:06:13.127 --> 00:06:14.306 Vendors in many cases, 162 00:06:16.697 --> 00:06:16.885 they... 163 00:06:17.726 --> 00:06:17.926 I mean, 164 00:06:17.927 --> 00:06:19.627 they want to help you and sell something, 165 00:06:19.668 --> 00:06:21.549 but fundamentally they just want to sell you something. 166 00:06:22.272 --> 00:06:24.713 And so they're not necessarily completely aligned with you. 167 00:06:26.233 --> 00:06:27.319 And they don't care about Mars. 168 00:06:27.897 --> 00:06:29.280 And so at the end of the day, 169 00:06:29.780 --> 00:06:31.538 we figured if we build stuff ourselves, 170 00:06:31.756 --> 00:06:32.702 like the engines we built, 171 00:06:32.803 --> 00:06:33.663 we build ourselves. 172 00:06:34.077 --> 00:06:39.702 And so we only bought things early on that we really could not do right away. 173 00:06:40.570 --> 00:06:41.411 would have taken too long. 174 00:06:43.351 --> 00:06:44.171 But then later on, 175 00:06:44.251 --> 00:06:46.372 we actually changed those components too. 176 00:06:46.412 --> 00:06:47.591 And now we pretty much, 177 00:06:48.111 --> 00:06:49.169 or now they pretty much, 178 00:06:50.052 --> 00:06:52.396 build everything that goes in the rocket. 179 00:06:53.255 --> 00:06:54.076 I will continue with that. 180 00:06:54.154 --> 00:06:56.216 But I guess because you said something interesting there, 181 00:06:56.271 --> 00:06:58.951 that the suppliers or the companies you went to, 182 00:06:59.529 --> 00:07:01.779 they didn't aim for Mars or they didn't think about Mars. 183 00:07:01.951 --> 00:07:04.529 Did all the people at SpaceX think about Mars? 184 00:07:04.888 --> 00:07:05.997 Not on a daily basis, 185 00:07:06.060 --> 00:07:07.482 but like, 186 00:07:07.529 --> 00:07:08.732 does this get to Mars? 187 00:07:09.218 --> 00:07:15.223 Does this get us to branch faster is a thing and is something that people would say every once in a while. 188 00:07:15.484 --> 00:07:19.812 Do you think that helped the culture on the company doing it fast? 189 00:07:20.086 --> 00:07:20.508 Definitely. 190 00:07:20.633 --> 00:07:20.890 I mean, 191 00:07:21.570 --> 00:07:21.953 number one, 192 00:07:21.954 --> 00:07:23.515 it kind of tells you, 193 00:07:23.914 --> 00:07:24.992 puts you in a working perspective. 194 00:07:25.390 --> 00:07:25.594 I mean, 195 00:07:25.595 --> 00:07:28.015 you're working on something really little and you want to get to a really big thing, 196 00:07:28.078 --> 00:07:29.359 so you better hurry up. 197 00:07:30.875 --> 00:07:31.000 So 198 00:07:32.047 --> 00:07:33.062 I think that's the main thing, 199 00:07:33.109 --> 00:07:33.281 right? 200 00:07:33.640 --> 00:07:35.984 And then also it keeps people motivated. 201 00:07:36.934 --> 00:07:38.015 Going to Mars is a big thing. 202 00:07:38.154 --> 00:07:38.894 Nobody has done this. 203 00:07:39.735 --> 00:07:39.935 I mean, 204 00:07:39.936 --> 00:07:40.315 it's not true. 205 00:07:40.354 --> 00:07:41.233 People have gone to Mars. 206 00:07:41.257 --> 00:07:43.776 JPL has launched multiple spacecraft going to Mars, 207 00:07:43.796 --> 00:07:43.936 yeah? 208 00:07:44.354 --> 00:07:45.476 But no private company, 209 00:07:45.655 --> 00:07:45.936 per se, 210 00:07:46.077 --> 00:07:46.616 has done that. 211 00:07:48.499 --> 00:07:50.757 So on the private level, 212 00:07:50.858 --> 00:07:53.296 that is definitely a new thing. 213 00:07:53.530 --> 00:07:55.983 And so you better get your work done quicker. 214 00:07:56.499 --> 00:07:56.718 Okay, 215 00:07:56.780 --> 00:07:57.952 so back to where we were. 216 00:07:58.061 --> 00:07:59.343 You were developing, 217 00:07:59.344 --> 00:08:00.702 you were building your stuff yourself, 218 00:08:00.999 --> 00:08:02.655 and then we got to Falcon 219 00:08:03.046 --> 00:08:04.046 1 and the first launch. 220 00:08:04.202 --> 00:08:07.764 Can you take us from there until the first one that succeeded? 221 00:08:08.206 --> 00:08:08.347 Yeah, 222 00:08:08.348 --> 00:08:08.487 I mean, 223 00:08:08.488 --> 00:08:09.026 the first one, 224 00:08:09.206 --> 00:08:12.132 the first Falcon 1 had a fire in the engine bay. 225 00:08:13.093 --> 00:08:22.733 It burned through a couple of pneumatic lines and then the engine went out and it came down after 28 seconds of thrust and exploded pretty much on the reef. 226 00:08:22.858 --> 00:08:25.639 We were launching from a small island in the 227 00:08:26.046 --> 00:08:26.702 Marshall Islands. 228 00:08:27.061 --> 00:08:28.546 The atoll is called Kwajalein, 229 00:08:28.561 --> 00:08:30.171 the island is called Omelak. 230 00:08:31.155 --> 00:08:31.936 We launched from there. 231 00:08:32.046 --> 00:08:32.733 where we were basically 232 00:08:33.202 --> 00:08:34.984 getting the debris together on the next day. 233 00:08:36.265 --> 00:08:37.046 It wasn't a great day. 234 00:08:39.068 --> 00:08:43.876 A year later we tried again and we failed on the upper stage control. 235 00:08:44.673 --> 00:08:46.251 There was a wobble, 236 00:08:47.017 --> 00:08:48.556 it was a control problem basically. 237 00:08:49.845 --> 00:08:55.720 Vehicle spun out of control and landed like 2500 kilometers downrange. 238 00:08:56.501 --> 00:08:57.767 Still no orbit. 239 00:08:57.892 --> 00:08:58.486 The third run 240 00:08:59.074 --> 00:09:02.157 We had a new engine which turns off in a different way. 241 00:09:02.778 --> 00:09:05.121 And so we shut down the first stage, 242 00:09:05.141 --> 00:09:06.461 we separated the stages, 243 00:09:06.965 --> 00:09:09.543 and then the first stage came back and hit the second stage. 244 00:09:10.567 --> 00:09:10.965 Not good. 245 00:09:12.004 --> 00:09:16.496 And then the next one we just changed the timing on the stage separation. 246 00:09:17.715 --> 00:09:20.700 And that one actually went to orbit two months or... 247 00:09:21.602 --> 00:09:21.722 Yeah, 248 00:09:21.782 --> 00:09:22.743 close to two months later, 249 00:09:23.384 --> 00:09:25.626 after the third failure. 250 00:09:26.165 --> 00:09:32.454 And so suddenly we were the first liquid commercial vehicle in orbit, 251 00:09:32.509 --> 00:09:33.571 which was a big deal. 252 00:09:34.196 --> 00:09:35.814 And what year are we now at? 253 00:09:36.056 --> 00:09:36.993 Now we're at 2008. 254 00:09:37.274 --> 00:09:38.056 To take us back, 255 00:09:38.196 --> 00:09:39.540 how do you move forward? 256 00:09:39.587 --> 00:09:45.040 Because obviously you worked for four years and then you launched the first rocket and it explodes after 257 00:09:45.540 --> 00:09:46.368 28 seconds. 258 00:09:46.509 --> 00:09:49.603 How do you get back to work and find the motivation after that? 259 00:09:50.274 --> 00:09:50.575 Okay, 260 00:09:50.635 --> 00:09:51.940 you pick up the debris. 261 00:09:53.708 --> 00:09:59.114 You put it in boxes and you store it somewhere where you don't have to care about it anymore for a while. 262 00:10:00.876 --> 00:10:03.720 And then you pick yourself up and get working on the next one. 263 00:10:04.040 --> 00:10:07.579 I'm not sure there's any more of a secret there than that. 264 00:10:08.126 --> 00:10:11.282 And you have to be somewhat self-motivated to get over that. 265 00:10:12.126 --> 00:10:12.360 I mean, 266 00:10:12.361 --> 00:10:15.985 it doesn't really matter how many times you fall as long as you stand up every time. 267 00:10:16.829 --> 00:10:17.704 That's the important part. 268 00:10:18.657 --> 00:10:22.470 I think what you shouldn't do is you shouldn't fail twice for the same thing. 269 00:10:23.180 --> 00:10:25.622 And you shouldn't fail for something that you can read up in books. 270 00:10:26.284 --> 00:10:31.129 And there were lots of things that weren't in books when you started because you needed to invent everything, 271 00:10:31.207 --> 00:10:31.325 or? 272 00:10:31.629 --> 00:10:34.411 So the first failures were basically all design problems, 273 00:10:34.473 --> 00:10:34.629 right? 274 00:10:34.653 --> 00:10:37.176 So you might have actually read up in books in those, 275 00:10:37.457 --> 00:10:39.301 but you're trying to design the whole thing, 276 00:10:39.379 --> 00:10:42.036 and it's like so many things, 277 00:10:42.176 --> 00:10:43.317 and you're running out of time. 278 00:10:43.739 --> 00:10:46.457 And so there are design flaws in the rocket, 279 00:10:46.770 --> 00:10:47.989 and you find them out the hard way. 280 00:10:49.364 --> 00:10:51.254 Other runs we got to Falcon 9, 281 00:10:51.255 --> 00:10:51.489 and 282 00:10:52.244 --> 00:11:00.611 It gets more trickier because now you have a production and you have flaws that are not always there. 283 00:11:01.275 --> 00:11:03.134 They might be probabilistic. 284 00:11:03.454 --> 00:11:06.837 They depend on which part has the flaw or something. 285 00:11:07.743 --> 00:11:12.306 So the early mistakes are usually easy to find and fix. 286 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:14.806 The later mistakes are usually harder to find. 287 00:11:15.431 --> 00:11:16.603 The reusability, 288 00:11:16.884 --> 00:11:19.650 was that a thing from the beginning when you started? 289 00:11:19.978 --> 00:11:20.087 Yeah, 290 00:11:20.165 --> 00:11:20.431 totally. 291 00:11:20.446 --> 00:11:20.650 I mean... 292 00:11:21.036 --> 00:11:23.937 The first Falcon 1 had a parachute in the first stage. 293 00:11:24.296 --> 00:11:26.976 It took us a while to focus on that. 294 00:11:27.117 --> 00:11:27.878 And then I think, 295 00:11:28.937 --> 00:11:30.796 I'm not sure when we started landing on the ocean, 296 00:11:30.835 --> 00:11:36.242 where we basically pretended the ocean is the land and then we would just try to land on the ocean. 297 00:11:36.859 --> 00:11:38.554 It must have been like, 298 00:11:39.163 --> 00:11:39.523 I don't know, 299 00:11:41.007 --> 00:11:41.320 in the... 300 00:11:42.060 --> 00:11:44.142 first 10 flights of Falcon 9. 301 00:11:44.722 --> 00:11:45.865 And then we refined that. 302 00:11:45.986 --> 00:11:51.548 And at one point we started landing on ships or like drone ships as we call them. 303 00:11:52.252 --> 00:11:54.150 That didn't go over well the first couple of times. 304 00:11:54.392 --> 00:11:56.197 And then they started landing and then they fell over. 305 00:11:57.595 --> 00:12:01.962 And it took us really a long time to get to the point of being able to land. 306 00:12:01.963 --> 00:12:04.697 And the first one that actually did succeed was the 307 00:12:05.275 --> 00:12:05.822 21st flight. 308 00:12:07.084 --> 00:12:07.945 or the 20th flight, 309 00:12:07.965 --> 00:12:08.826 depends on how you count. 310 00:12:09.407 --> 00:12:12.110 And that landed on land in Cape Canaveral. 311 00:12:13.829 --> 00:12:18.274 And that was the end of all the other expendable rockets. 312 00:12:19.735 --> 00:12:21.961 And then you succeeded with Falcon 9. 313 00:12:22.079 --> 00:12:23.915 You flew it and you landed it. 314 00:12:24.540 --> 00:12:29.899 How did you go from there to having a paid customer to actually flying stuff to space? 315 00:12:30.211 --> 00:12:32.102 We always had a customer on Falcon 9. 316 00:12:32.708 --> 00:12:33.769 After Falcon 1, 317 00:12:33.989 --> 00:12:34.710 NASA gave 318 00:12:35.350 --> 00:12:39.256 SpaceX a contract that basically said, 319 00:12:39.475 --> 00:12:40.596 you build Dragon for us, 320 00:12:40.733 --> 00:12:41.514 I mean for NASA, 321 00:12:42.514 --> 00:12:44.983 in order to get cargo up and down to the space station, 322 00:12:45.663 --> 00:12:49.639 and you will build your rocket yourself. 323 00:12:50.983 --> 00:12:55.186 So basically this was like one of these things where you want companies to invest, 324 00:12:56.124 --> 00:12:57.889 and our investment was Falcon 9, 325 00:12:58.186 --> 00:12:59.639 NASA's investment was Falcon 326 00:13:00.483 --> 00:13:01.061 Dragon, I mean. 327 00:13:02.256 --> 00:13:03.697 And it did make sense, 328 00:13:04.158 --> 00:13:05.379 because if you think about it, 329 00:13:05.398 --> 00:13:08.082 Dragon is very much tailored to NASA. 330 00:13:10.242 --> 00:13:12.289 The only customer for that is the space station. 331 00:13:13.086 --> 00:13:15.812 Why would we build a Dragon in that sense? 332 00:13:16.273 --> 00:13:16.609 And then 333 00:13:17.008 --> 00:13:18.750 Falcon 9 can be used in other parts, 334 00:13:18.765 --> 00:13:21.453 and that makes sense for SpaceX to finance. 335 00:13:22.922 --> 00:13:24.297 So when building this, 336 00:13:24.984 --> 00:13:26.343 how do you get your... 337 00:13:27.356 --> 00:13:29.397 The company or the employees, 338 00:13:29.436 --> 00:13:32.917 how do you streamline them to aim for the same goal, 339 00:13:33.038 --> 00:13:33.417 all of them? 340 00:13:33.499 --> 00:13:35.698 Because you did something very hard, 341 00:13:35.917 --> 00:13:36.620 very fast, 342 00:13:36.878 --> 00:13:40.901 if you compare it to the rest of this slow-moving space industry. 343 00:13:41.479 --> 00:13:42.659 I guess you have good communication, 344 00:13:42.682 --> 00:13:44.057 you have open offices, 345 00:13:44.073 --> 00:13:48.167 you have no doors on the offices. 346 00:13:49.940 --> 00:13:50.741 You're all sitting in one room. 347 00:13:50.861 --> 00:13:51.061 I mean, 348 00:13:51.062 --> 00:13:51.803 there's different methods, 349 00:13:51.842 --> 00:13:52.021 right? 350 00:13:52.844 --> 00:13:55.588 And the culture was very much like a 351 00:13:56.627 --> 00:13:58.267 Silicon Valley startup culture, 352 00:13:58.728 --> 00:13:59.111 pretty much, 353 00:13:59.486 --> 00:14:03.557 which has good communication by the way they're organized. 354 00:14:05.356 --> 00:14:05.496 Yeah, 355 00:14:05.876 --> 00:14:06.297 like I said, 356 00:14:06.316 --> 00:14:06.736 no doors, 357 00:14:06.776 --> 00:14:06.957 right? 358 00:14:07.637 --> 00:14:12.298 There's no privacy at SpaceX unless you have your headphones on. 359 00:14:13.696 --> 00:14:15.540 But ultimately, 360 00:14:16.219 --> 00:14:19.821 we were really careful about having good communication and so on and so forth. 361 00:14:19.977 --> 00:14:22.477 And we're also working pretty hard. 362 00:14:22.821 --> 00:14:23.633 And how is it, 363 00:14:24.274 --> 00:14:26.118 it is Elon Musk's company. 364 00:14:26.774 --> 00:14:30.868 So is it top run by him or how does it work in that way? 365 00:14:31.055 --> 00:14:32.977 Pretty much run by him at the end of the day. 366 00:14:33.758 --> 00:14:34.008 I mean 367 00:14:34.564 --> 00:14:35.125 At one point, 368 00:14:35.145 --> 00:14:37.729 day-to-day business was run by Gwynne Shotwell. 369 00:14:38.671 --> 00:14:44.624 But Elon would always have like one or two days in a week to come in and talk and make decisions. 370 00:14:45.546 --> 00:14:47.405 He would actually help make decisions. 371 00:14:47.608 --> 00:14:47.889 I mean, 372 00:14:49.413 --> 00:14:52.631 you would not have a meeting with Elon and not come out with a decision. 373 00:14:53.475 --> 00:14:54.396 So it was really helpful. 374 00:14:57.336 --> 00:14:59.855 Tell us more about your role. 375 00:15:00.016 --> 00:15:03.898 Exactly what was it that you did during your years there? 376 00:15:03.961 --> 00:15:04.961 I ask myself that a lot. 377 00:15:05.180 --> 00:15:05.836 What did I do, 378 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:06.297 actually? 379 00:15:08.719 --> 00:15:09.594 So I transitioned too, 380 00:15:09.641 --> 00:15:09.797 right? 381 00:15:09.812 --> 00:15:10.078 I mean, 382 00:15:10.172 --> 00:15:11.000 after Falcon 1, 383 00:15:11.719 --> 00:15:14.125 I missed a little bit the Falcon 9 train. 384 00:15:14.797 --> 00:15:17.094 And I became more of a systems person. 385 00:15:17.187 --> 00:15:18.625 And I became a launch. 386 00:15:18.983 --> 00:15:20.305 what I call launch chief engineer. 387 00:15:21.465 --> 00:15:22.787 It's important that it's just launch. 388 00:15:23.928 --> 00:15:24.049 So 389 00:15:25.088 --> 00:15:28.936 I was basically involved in getting the vehicles to fly at the end of the day. 390 00:15:29.373 --> 00:15:34.256 And then out of that came a role that was more like towards reliability. 391 00:15:35.475 --> 00:15:38.990 And then out of that came basically the build and flight reliability, 392 00:15:39.037 --> 00:15:39.303 which is, 393 00:15:40.506 --> 00:15:43.459 you would translate that probably into a quality assurance, 394 00:15:43.990 --> 00:15:45.365 mission assurance role, 395 00:15:45.850 --> 00:15:47.256 which on a high level, 396 00:15:47.563 --> 00:15:49.564 also does the launch chief engineering. 397 00:15:49.865 --> 00:15:50.466 So in other words, 398 00:15:50.467 --> 00:15:52.627 it's also responsible for making the thing fly, 399 00:15:52.689 --> 00:15:53.048 basically. 400 00:15:53.267 --> 00:15:54.970 So my role changed over time, 401 00:15:55.732 --> 00:16:00.818 but it got more system level, 402 00:16:01.435 --> 00:16:06.162 basically less avionics or specific. 403 00:16:06.209 --> 00:16:06.365 But 404 00:16:07.287 --> 00:16:08.787 I'm pretty good on like... 405 00:16:09.575 --> 00:16:11.357 I'm not sure how to say this really. 406 00:16:11.897 --> 00:16:16.983 I'm not really good anymore in building electronics or writing software, 407 00:16:17.264 --> 00:16:18.944 but I'm pretty good at making things together work. 408 00:16:19.522 --> 00:16:21.444 So that was my main job. 409 00:16:22.084 --> 00:16:22.905 And as you said, 410 00:16:22.906 --> 00:16:24.670 you were number four in the company, 411 00:16:25.030 --> 00:16:25.756 and it grew, 412 00:16:25.897 --> 00:16:28.772 and in the beginning it was basically hiring people. 413 00:16:28.787 --> 00:16:31.037 So how much did you grow during your years there? 414 00:16:31.912 --> 00:16:32.475 So in total, 415 00:16:32.616 --> 00:16:34.819 by the time I left in 21, 416 00:16:35.537 --> 00:16:38.631 so that's over almost 19 and a half years, 417 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:39.640 We were, 418 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:41.122 I want to say, 419 00:16:41.221 --> 00:16:42.083 13,000, 420 00:16:42.422 --> 00:16:45.143 so 1,300. 421 00:16:45.144 --> 00:16:45.764 In my division, 422 00:16:45.827 --> 00:16:46.788 we were 350. 423 00:16:47.245 --> 00:16:48.291 And how is that divided? 424 00:16:48.331 --> 00:16:50.049 What does the different groups do, 425 00:16:50.213 --> 00:16:50.627 basically? 426 00:16:50.893 --> 00:16:51.010 Yeah, 427 00:16:51.049 --> 00:16:51.190 well, 428 00:16:51.252 --> 00:16:51.651 like I said, 429 00:16:51.674 --> 00:16:51.909 I mean, 430 00:16:52.588 --> 00:16:57.604 the built-on flat reliability does everything that's related to reliability. 431 00:16:57.932 --> 00:17:01.807 It also does a risk management process, 432 00:17:01.808 --> 00:17:02.182 basically, 433 00:17:02.260 --> 00:17:03.198 that's run by the group. 434 00:17:03.823 --> 00:17:04.791 It does the changes, 435 00:17:04.823 --> 00:17:05.245 basically, 436 00:17:05.338 --> 00:17:07.073 it's a change process that's run by the group. 437 00:17:07.503 --> 00:17:08.804 There's lots of reviews that they do. 438 00:17:10.146 --> 00:17:13.388 And then there's lots of anomalies that they do in my own group. 439 00:17:13.389 --> 00:17:14.830 But then there's other groups that, 440 00:17:14.970 --> 00:17:15.209 you know, 441 00:17:15.291 --> 00:17:17.349 that are more traditional like propulsion, 442 00:17:17.474 --> 00:17:18.295 builds propulsion, 443 00:17:19.459 --> 00:17:19.935 production, 444 00:17:20.357 --> 00:17:20.638 you know, 445 00:17:21.896 --> 00:17:22.998 cranks out big rockets, 446 00:17:24.646 --> 00:17:25.146 structures, 447 00:17:25.787 --> 00:17:32.990 does everything that's structural and thermal and some other stuff. 448 00:17:33.021 --> 00:17:33.146 So, 449 00:17:33.443 --> 00:17:33.693 I mean, 450 00:17:33.709 --> 00:17:36.677 there's a pretty traditional division within the groups. 451 00:17:37.099 --> 00:17:37.920 overall as SpaceX, 452 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:39.301 at the time at least. 453 00:17:40.361 --> 00:17:41.521 You work with rockets, 454 00:17:41.982 --> 00:17:43.006 you work with people. 455 00:17:43.264 --> 00:17:44.807 It's a risk-full business as well, 456 00:17:45.006 --> 00:17:47.412 because you do blow up things in the end. 457 00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:50.615 So how do you work with that and at the same time doing it fast? 458 00:17:51.014 --> 00:17:54.381 How do you manage risk management in a company like this? 459 00:17:54.803 --> 00:17:57.100 The hardest part is actually to get the risk of the people, 460 00:17:58.115 --> 00:17:59.021 and there's different ways. 461 00:17:59.943 --> 00:18:04.209 And then there's people that see risk everywhere and there's people that see no risk at all. 462 00:18:04.823 --> 00:18:06.865 And you got to kind of normalize this a little bit, 463 00:18:07.887 --> 00:18:09.949 mostly through conversation. 464 00:18:11.211 --> 00:18:16.258 But every once in a while I would also look at things that went wrong and then go back and talk to people, 465 00:18:16.812 --> 00:18:17.055 you know, 466 00:18:17.336 --> 00:18:19.094 how did that happen kind of thing. 467 00:18:20.422 --> 00:18:24.922 I know it was always interesting to get this out of people and I got a reputation for, 468 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:26.281 I guess, 469 00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:27.859 being able to handle that pretty well. 470 00:18:28.411 --> 00:18:28.631 I mean, 471 00:18:29.032 --> 00:18:38.140 everybody in the company knew me and so people would tell me what was going wrong or many people would tell me what they think is wrong and then we would fix it. 472 00:18:38.882 --> 00:18:39.804 If you look back, 473 00:18:40.085 --> 00:18:45.023 what were the biggest problems or the biggest concerns during your time there? 474 00:18:45.054 --> 00:18:46.429 Was there anything you thought was, 475 00:18:46.507 --> 00:18:46.663 okay, 476 00:18:46.945 --> 00:18:49.976 we should really not be doing like this or we should think in another way? 477 00:18:50.299 --> 00:18:52.081 So I think we worked a lot on detail, 478 00:18:52.282 --> 00:18:53.282 on a very detailed level, 479 00:18:53.301 --> 00:18:54.985 like certain components like valves, 480 00:18:55.024 --> 00:18:58.048 and so are just notorious for having problems. 481 00:18:58.747 --> 00:19:05.692 And designing the best valve or something like that was something that was really high on the list. 482 00:19:06.958 --> 00:19:09.505 Engines are always difficult. 483 00:19:09.506 --> 00:19:13.255 They tend to sometimes combust spontaneously. 484 00:19:15.831 --> 00:19:17.191 Things would fail in tests. 485 00:19:18.252 --> 00:19:18.592 I don't know. 486 00:19:18.893 --> 00:19:22.012 I feel like this was not really super unexpected. 487 00:19:22.094 --> 00:19:22.574 That's kind of... 488 00:19:22.711 --> 00:19:26.773 And electronics obviously would sometimes fail because the environment was just too rough, 489 00:19:26.836 --> 00:19:30.070 but they wouldn't fail because they're aged or something. 490 00:19:30.313 --> 00:19:30.555 I mean, 491 00:19:30.556 --> 00:19:31.672 a rocket flies for 10 minutes, 492 00:19:31.695 --> 00:19:31.867 right? 493 00:19:33.539 --> 00:19:33.648 So 494 00:19:34.836 --> 00:19:37.195 I feel like it was all pretty much what we expected. 495 00:19:37.273 --> 00:19:39.852 And wherever you have a lot of energy, 496 00:19:40.211 --> 00:19:41.414 like in a turbopump or so, 497 00:19:41.898 --> 00:19:44.664 those parts are more susceptible to fail than others. 498 00:19:45.387 --> 00:19:46.868 Was there some time, 499 00:19:48.591 --> 00:19:51.114 during all your 19 and a half years there, 500 00:19:51.833 --> 00:19:54.653 that you or the company Big was like, 501 00:19:54.755 --> 00:19:54.997 okay, 502 00:19:56.020 --> 00:19:56.958 we're not going to make this. 503 00:19:57.356 --> 00:19:59.200 Let's do something else with our time. 504 00:20:00.324 --> 00:20:01.926 We did change course a couple of times. 505 00:20:02.046 --> 00:20:02.347 I mean, 506 00:20:04.007 --> 00:20:05.030 there's a couple of examples. 507 00:20:05.069 --> 00:20:05.230 Like, 508 00:20:05.671 --> 00:20:07.812 originally Falcon 9 was supposed to be Falcon 5, 509 00:20:07.851 --> 00:20:14.581 and then we realized we can't get enough cargo to the space station with that. 510 00:20:14.597 --> 00:20:15.995 So we got to be bigger. 511 00:20:16.542 --> 00:20:18.495 And then we basically doubled the engine on the first stage, 512 00:20:19.120 --> 00:20:19.948 or almost doubled, 513 00:20:19.964 --> 00:20:20.151 right, 514 00:20:20.230 --> 00:20:22.058 Falcon 9. 515 00:20:22.292 --> 00:20:24.761 And then obviously that was the trick. 516 00:20:24.870 --> 00:20:27.651 And so many cases we did. 517 00:20:28.340 --> 00:20:32.083 revised decisions and built bigger stuff, 518 00:20:32.325 --> 00:20:32.724 changed it. 519 00:20:32.923 --> 00:20:33.607 And just to be clear, 520 00:20:33.966 --> 00:20:36.626 the number afterwards is the number of engines. 521 00:20:36.868 --> 00:20:38.267 It's the number of engines on the first stage. 522 00:20:38.689 --> 00:20:40.493 Because technically Falcon 9 has 10 engines, 523 00:20:40.775 --> 00:20:41.993 but it's not called Falcon 10, 524 00:20:42.017 --> 00:20:42.837 it's called Falcon 9. 525 00:20:43.712 --> 00:20:45.361 It's the engines that you see when it flies away. 526 00:20:47.595 --> 00:20:50.439 Just to bring it to the listeners here, 527 00:20:50.657 --> 00:20:54.751 what can a growing Swedish company or a startup in Sweden, 528 00:20:54.814 --> 00:20:57.704 what can we learn from the way you did it at SpaceX? 529 00:20:58.236 --> 00:20:59.917 to accomplish what we want to accomplish. 530 00:21:00.356 --> 00:21:00.997 So basically, 531 00:21:01.057 --> 00:21:01.336 I mean, 532 00:21:01.817 --> 00:21:02.778 what people learned, 533 00:21:03.637 --> 00:21:05.696 whether they're in Sweden or somewhere else, 534 00:21:06.020 --> 00:21:08.036 is basically you should probably account for like, 535 00:21:08.676 --> 00:21:09.059 I don't know, 536 00:21:09.176 --> 00:21:09.379 two, 537 00:21:09.481 --> 00:21:09.715 three, 538 00:21:09.856 --> 00:21:12.137 four failures from the get-go, 539 00:21:12.278 --> 00:21:12.442 right? 540 00:21:12.481 --> 00:21:14.215 Before you're really ready to fly something. 541 00:21:16.137 --> 00:21:17.622 And that's actually what you need. 542 00:21:18.981 --> 00:21:22.043 You should try as hard as possible to succeed on the first launch, 543 00:21:22.059 --> 00:21:22.200 yeah? 544 00:21:22.637 --> 00:21:23.575 But on the other side, 545 00:21:23.576 --> 00:21:24.700 you should also not like... 546 00:21:26.044 --> 00:21:29.105 sit around for years and try to analyze this problem, 547 00:21:29.384 --> 00:21:30.423 at one point you got to fly. 548 00:21:31.107 --> 00:21:35.907 And so it's like a trade-off between if you go too fast, 549 00:21:35.923 --> 00:21:38.329 you make too many mistakes and it doesn't end. 550 00:21:38.345 --> 00:21:41.111 You don't have time to fix those things. 551 00:21:41.150 --> 00:21:42.009 If you go too slow, 552 00:21:42.806 --> 00:21:47.275 then you're obviously wasting time by trying to optimize the first rocket, 553 00:21:47.321 --> 00:21:53.509 which is typically you learn so much during first flight that you will redesign it anyways. 554 00:21:54.134 --> 00:21:54.243 So... 555 00:21:54.732 --> 00:21:55.393 In the beginning, 556 00:21:55.553 --> 00:21:58.957 did you reinvent the way you did things all the time? 557 00:21:58.976 --> 00:22:02.640 Or did you also look at your competitors or other companies around you, 558 00:22:02.722 --> 00:22:03.300 how they did it? 559 00:22:03.722 --> 00:22:03.980 I mean, 560 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:06.363 you do look at others in a way, 561 00:22:06.566 --> 00:22:07.644 those are your starting points, 562 00:22:07.785 --> 00:22:08.722 basically. 563 00:22:08.808 --> 00:22:11.402 You just know this is what a fly computer usually looks like. 564 00:22:12.543 --> 00:22:14.933 But we did start doing, 565 00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:18.636 let's see if you find a lower cost version, 566 00:22:18.683 --> 00:22:18.855 right? 567 00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:20.574 And didn't really... 568 00:22:21.488 --> 00:22:23.892 Try to copy anybody's specific design. 569 00:22:24.074 --> 00:22:26.718 It's also hard to do because most people don't show you their design. 570 00:22:27.179 --> 00:22:27.941 It's all pretty hidden. 571 00:22:29.542 --> 00:22:35.214 And so you're pretty much forced to do more or less your own design. 572 00:22:36.268 --> 00:22:36.749 And 573 00:22:37.710 --> 00:22:40.954 I guess it's particularly innovative. 574 00:22:41.212 --> 00:22:41.653 Not really, 575 00:22:41.693 --> 00:22:42.013 I think, 576 00:22:42.014 --> 00:22:42.634 in my opinion. 577 00:22:42.775 --> 00:22:43.017 I mean, 578 00:22:43.454 --> 00:22:48.259 it's more like trying to find the lowest cost solution to a problem that usually costs a lot more money. 579 00:22:48.884 --> 00:22:49.298 And yes, 580 00:22:49.321 --> 00:22:50.743 there's some innovation in there too. 581 00:22:52.025 --> 00:22:52.657 But honestly, 582 00:22:52.720 --> 00:23:01.173 the real big innovation came later when we started doing Falcon 9 and trying to land it and going more into reusability. 583 00:23:01.235 --> 00:23:05.392 That is the really key innovation of SpaceX. 584 00:23:06.245 --> 00:23:11.840 is to be able to launch the same rocket or the same booster you know 585 00:23:12.552 --> 00:23:13.873 up to 28 times in a row. 586 00:23:15.154 --> 00:23:17.197 That is a big deal. 587 00:23:17.435 --> 00:23:21.443 And people underestimate how cheap that makes rockets. 588 00:23:21.904 --> 00:23:23.240 Some people still don't understand it, 589 00:23:23.264 --> 00:23:24.904 but it's a game changer. 590 00:23:25.428 --> 00:23:25.904 Absolutely. 591 00:23:25.928 --> 00:23:28.170 And after that also we have the Starship, 592 00:23:28.389 --> 00:23:28.849 of course. 593 00:23:28.912 --> 00:23:29.834 If you want to go to Mars, 594 00:23:30.053 --> 00:23:31.146 you need a bigger ship. 595 00:23:31.724 --> 00:23:33.756 You need a substantial ship, 596 00:23:33.818 --> 00:23:34.834 and even then it's difficult, 597 00:23:34.881 --> 00:23:35.021 right? 598 00:23:35.990 --> 00:23:37.396 And then you also need to have, 599 00:23:37.834 --> 00:23:38.084 usually, 600 00:23:38.178 --> 00:23:39.443 rockets that get into orbit. 601 00:23:40.188 --> 00:23:40.569 They're empty, 602 00:23:40.589 --> 00:23:41.570 they have no fuel anymore. 603 00:23:41.630 --> 00:23:49.060 So you need something that actually is fully loaded in orbit because that's when the travel begins. 604 00:23:52.083 --> 00:23:53.763 So Starship fixes two things. 605 00:23:54.099 --> 00:23:54.505 Number one, 606 00:23:54.506 --> 00:23:58.466 it has a heat shield on the second stage so you can re-enter with the second stage. 607 00:23:58.872 --> 00:24:00.591 And it makes both stages reusable. 608 00:24:00.622 --> 00:24:08.232 So now your launch is only the price of fuel and oxygen and basically the operation. 609 00:24:08.556 --> 00:24:20.328 And then the second thing is you can load from a starship that just went to orbit to a starship that is already in orbit and sitting there and refill it basically. 610 00:24:20.726 --> 00:24:28.195 So you can launch a couple of times and refill that particular starship and then you fly that starship to Mars. 611 00:24:28.695 --> 00:24:30.413 And then you're also going to re-enter on Mars, 612 00:24:30.523 --> 00:24:35.976 land there and then get ready to come back or stay there depending on what you want to do. 613 00:24:36.466 --> 00:24:37.667 I wasn't really working with Starship, 614 00:24:37.768 --> 00:24:38.108 honestly. 615 00:24:38.168 --> 00:24:42.233 I was working primarily with the astronauts at the time, 616 00:24:42.471 --> 00:24:44.955 so trying to launch the astronauts safely, 617 00:24:45.596 --> 00:24:48.198 which is a pretty big job, 618 00:24:48.260 --> 00:24:48.416 too. 619 00:24:49.002 --> 00:24:51.424 And so I was working on the Falcon 9 side, 620 00:24:51.425 --> 00:24:52.221 on the Dragon side, 621 00:24:52.705 --> 00:24:54.190 and less on the Starship side. 622 00:24:54.862 --> 00:24:57.533 And also Starship has a different location. 623 00:24:57.580 --> 00:24:58.487 It's in Boca Chica, 624 00:24:59.252 --> 00:24:59.596 down in 625 00:25:00.096 --> 00:25:01.768 Texas, at the Mexican border. 626 00:25:02.330 --> 00:25:02.455 And 627 00:25:02.987 --> 00:25:05.533 I was always at the Hawthorne headquarters, 628 00:25:05.549 --> 00:25:05.908 SpaceX. 629 00:25:06.730 --> 00:25:10.574 And how was it to go from doing flights, 630 00:25:11.154 --> 00:25:12.076 then flying cargo, 631 00:25:12.275 --> 00:25:13.716 and then to flying humans? 632 00:25:13.939 --> 00:25:14.798 A little different. 633 00:25:14.822 --> 00:25:15.095 I mean, 634 00:25:17.603 --> 00:25:18.798 you know your cargo really well then. 635 00:25:19.541 --> 00:25:19.666 No, 636 00:25:20.142 --> 00:25:20.384 I mean, 637 00:25:20.642 --> 00:25:21.181 it's a big deal. 638 00:25:22.127 --> 00:25:22.525 Obviously, 639 00:25:24.322 --> 00:25:27.587 your attitude changes a lot. 640 00:25:27.588 --> 00:25:28.556 So I always thought, 641 00:25:28.619 --> 00:25:28.853 actually, 642 00:25:29.306 --> 00:25:30.931 we don't want to lose cargo either, 643 00:25:31.009 --> 00:25:31.197 right? 644 00:25:31.869 --> 00:25:35.744 But there's a difference if there's a human on board. 645 00:25:36.366 --> 00:25:42.194 And it does make things a little bit different because now it's a human, 646 00:25:42.233 --> 00:25:45.272 it's typically a father or mother, 647 00:25:45.733 --> 00:25:46.795 have kids and whatever. 648 00:25:47.053 --> 00:25:47.295 I mean, 649 00:25:47.296 --> 00:25:53.498 there's all kinds of things that complicate things there and you really, 650 00:25:53.998 --> 00:25:54.217 really, 651 00:25:54.327 --> 00:25:54.530 really, 652 00:25:54.623 --> 00:25:55.827 really want them to come back. 653 00:25:55.889 --> 00:26:00.123 So it's a big deal to fly astronauts. 654 00:26:00.217 --> 00:26:05.061 So a new level of reliability and engineering in my eyes. 655 00:26:05.694 --> 00:26:07.834 And how do you change your way of work with that? 656 00:26:08.274 --> 00:26:11.196 The first human spaceflight on SpaceX was like, 657 00:26:11.535 --> 00:26:12.016 over many, 658 00:26:12.074 --> 00:26:15.117 many years was built up to certify the vehicle with NASA. 659 00:26:15.938 --> 00:26:18.594 And so it was a lot of cooperation with NASA, 660 00:26:19.219 --> 00:26:19.914 also a lot of, 661 00:26:19.953 --> 00:26:20.219 you know, 662 00:26:20.516 --> 00:26:25.938 disagreements and back and forth and get this worked out. 663 00:26:28.203 --> 00:26:29.281 That took a lot of time. 664 00:26:29.682 --> 00:26:31.482 at the end of the day to get the vehicle, 665 00:26:31.742 --> 00:26:32.982 but it did get the vehicle right. 666 00:26:35.082 --> 00:26:38.304 It did produce a very reliable rocket at the end. 667 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:40.406 And with Falcon 9, 668 00:26:40.843 --> 00:26:43.945 it seemed like you always took small steps forward, 669 00:26:44.523 --> 00:26:47.562 not doing the same mistakes again. 670 00:26:48.031 --> 00:26:48.890 Now on Spaceship, 671 00:26:48.953 --> 00:26:51.453 we've seen a few failures. 672 00:26:51.593 --> 00:26:52.593 Why do you think that is? 673 00:26:53.249 --> 00:26:53.843 I think it's going, 674 00:26:54.484 --> 00:26:58.203 they're trying really hard to get things done in a short time. 675 00:26:58.343 --> 00:26:58.781 so maybe maybe 676 00:26:59.190 --> 00:26:59.871 That's how it looks to me, 677 00:27:00.011 --> 00:27:00.431 basically. 678 00:27:01.492 --> 00:27:01.773 Honestly, 679 00:27:01.774 --> 00:27:02.654 I don't really know. 680 00:27:04.236 --> 00:27:06.939 But they seem to be... 681 00:27:06.940 --> 00:27:07.056 I mean, 682 00:27:07.057 --> 00:27:10.244 they have demonstrated everything that they needed to do at the end of the day, 683 00:27:10.322 --> 00:27:10.478 right, 684 00:27:10.479 --> 00:27:11.166 for a whole mission. 685 00:27:12.002 --> 00:27:13.744 But they haven't put it together in one mission. 686 00:27:14.345 --> 00:27:16.853 And so that's what I'm waiting for. 687 00:27:17.009 --> 00:27:17.228 Maybe... 688 00:27:18.571 --> 00:27:20.013 I guess maybe it works on the next one. 689 00:27:20.713 --> 00:27:22.418 This was number 10 I think right? 690 00:27:24.020 --> 00:27:25.782 Okay maybe the 11th time is the charm. 691 00:27:27.465 --> 00:27:31.629 So when will we see a 692 00:27:32.434 --> 00:27:33.793 SpaceX ship, 693 00:27:34.114 --> 00:27:37.707 a starship land on Mars and fly back? 694 00:27:38.634 --> 00:27:39.415 Now we're flying back away, 695 00:27:39.475 --> 00:27:40.436 that's a complication. 696 00:27:40.956 --> 00:27:42.378 I would say just land on Mars, 697 00:27:42.379 --> 00:27:44.398 2021. 698 00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:44.999 Well, 699 00:27:45.062 --> 00:27:46.984 there's one opportunity before that. 700 00:27:47.945 --> 00:27:48.366 There's one, 701 00:27:48.367 --> 00:27:50.304 28 and 29, 702 00:27:50.445 --> 00:27:51.804 like right at the limit. 703 00:27:52.249 --> 00:27:54.031 But I think that might be really tight. 704 00:27:54.773 --> 00:27:57.335 I think the propellant transfer needs to be worked out too. 705 00:27:57.976 --> 00:28:00.523 So I give them more time and say 31. 706 00:28:01.598 --> 00:28:01.998 Basically. 707 00:28:02.018 --> 00:28:02.279 And then, 708 00:28:02.838 --> 00:28:02.978 well, 709 00:28:02.979 --> 00:28:03.938 for flying back you need, 710 00:28:04.399 --> 00:28:06.159 there's a lot more that you need for that. 711 00:28:06.600 --> 00:28:07.080 You do need, 712 00:28:07.561 --> 00:28:07.881 actually, 713 00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:10.096 people that produce propellant. 714 00:28:10.940 --> 00:28:12.299 You can produce propellant on Mars. 715 00:28:13.159 --> 00:28:17.096 The atmosphere allows you to basically pull methane out of it. 716 00:28:17.580 --> 00:28:18.205 And then you also, 717 00:28:19.002 --> 00:28:19.159 well, 718 00:28:19.174 --> 00:28:20.846 you don't need water for the oxygen part. 719 00:28:21.565 --> 00:28:22.862 So you also need to find water on Mars. 720 00:28:22.863 --> 00:28:27.049 So there's a couple of things that need to be done on Mars to be successful. 721 00:28:27.080 --> 00:28:28.159 But fundamentally, 722 00:28:28.330 --> 00:28:29.846 I think that's going to take a couple more years. 723 00:28:31.214 --> 00:28:31.675 And so 724 00:28:32.095 --> 00:28:33.878 31 and the first few months, 725 00:28:33.977 --> 00:28:34.237 then 726 00:28:34.638 --> 00:28:35.397 33 maybe. 727 00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:37.761 Or maybe even more depending on how things go. 728 00:28:38.182 --> 00:28:40.386 If things go a little bit rough on 31, 729 00:28:40.401 --> 00:28:42.323 then it might be another cycle. 730 00:28:42.448 --> 00:28:45.526 So you can launch every 731 00:28:45.948 --> 00:28:47.409 26 months or something like that. 732 00:28:48.284 --> 00:28:51.440 So that's why we're talking basically launch Windows to Mars. 733 00:28:52.300 --> 00:28:54.096 You can launch in other times too, 734 00:28:54.143 --> 00:28:55.596 but it's way harder to do. 735 00:28:56.221 --> 00:28:57.221 So every other year, 736 00:28:57.628 --> 00:28:57.800 sorry, 737 00:28:57.956 --> 00:28:58.846 every two years rather. 738 00:28:59.956 --> 00:29:00.378 So I think... 739 00:29:00.926 --> 00:29:01.727 31 workers, 740 00:29:01.728 --> 00:29:03.228 35 then people. 741 00:29:04.029 --> 00:29:07.931 I think that seems like a more realistic scheme now. 742 00:29:08.795 --> 00:29:10.459 Is Elon happy about the time schedule, 743 00:29:10.460 --> 00:29:10.717 you think? 744 00:29:11.318 --> 00:29:11.873 If it works out, 745 00:29:11.896 --> 00:29:14.303 I think he will be happy if that actually happens. 746 00:29:14.357 --> 00:29:15.521 If it delays any further, 747 00:29:15.537 --> 00:29:17.138 I'm pretty sure he's not going to be happy about it. 748 00:29:18.201 --> 00:29:18.451 I mean, 749 00:29:19.888 --> 00:29:20.482 the question is, 750 00:29:20.498 --> 00:29:22.373 is Elon happy with like 29 or so? 751 00:29:22.420 --> 00:29:22.685 I mean, 752 00:29:22.686 --> 00:29:24.185 he already hinted it. 753 00:29:24.592 --> 00:29:27.092 It might be difficult in two years to do this, 754 00:29:27.138 --> 00:29:27.295 right? 755 00:29:27.296 --> 00:29:29.092 So that to me looks a little bit like... 756 00:29:30.150 --> 00:29:30.771 Realistically, 757 00:29:31.432 --> 00:29:35.436 I've been too optimistic on some of these estimates too. 758 00:29:36.538 --> 00:29:37.620 So I'm a little bit cautious now. 759 00:29:39.316 --> 00:29:40.237 So just to finish up, 760 00:29:40.438 --> 00:29:44.279 you've been part of building all these rockets and taking people to space. 761 00:29:44.303 --> 00:29:45.041 Would you like to go? 762 00:29:45.443 --> 00:29:45.822 Definitely, 763 00:29:45.823 --> 00:29:46.483 I would definitely go. 764 00:29:46.904 --> 00:29:48.108 Maybe not necessarily to Mars. 765 00:29:48.123 --> 00:29:49.287 That's kind of like a long time. 766 00:29:50.490 --> 00:29:51.084 But yeah, 767 00:29:51.248 --> 00:29:51.389 sure. 768 00:29:51.686 --> 00:29:51.990 Space, 769 00:29:52.272 --> 00:29:53.147 for sure. 770 00:29:53.148 --> 00:29:53.311 Cool, 771 00:29:53.389 --> 00:29:53.568 let's. 772 00:29:59.058 --> 00:29:59.598 Där hör ni. 773 00:29:59.938 --> 00:30:03.337 Det spelar inte så stor roll hur många gånger man misslyckas. 774 00:30:03.818 --> 00:30:07.040 Bara man inte gör det på samma sätt två gånger. 775 00:30:07.439 --> 00:30:12.205 Och att man aldrig misslyckas med något som man hade kunnat läsa sig till i en bok. 776 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:12.837 Ja, 777 00:30:13.220 --> 00:30:14.462 och med tanke på bok, 778 00:30:14.564 --> 00:30:16.447 det ska ju vi faktiskt släppa en snart. 779 00:30:17.384 --> 00:30:19.837 Men det pratar vi mer om vid ett annat tillfälle. 780 00:30:20.478 --> 00:30:21.759 Ni får se det här som en teaser. 781 00:30:22.525 --> 00:30:25.181 Jag tycker också att vi ska släppa en skiva med vår musik. 782 00:30:25.697 --> 00:30:27.619 Den är skriven av Armin Pendek. 783 00:30:28.066 --> 00:30:29.868 Jag heter Susanna Levenhaupt. 784 00:30:30.129 --> 00:30:31.308 Jag heter Marcus Pettersson. 785 00:30:31.910 --> 00:30:36.992 Har vi åkt till marsen görs på Beppo av Rundfunk Media i samarbete med Saab. 786 00:30:45.250 --> 00:30:56.390 Hallå? 787 00:30:57.674 --> 00:30:59.139 Programmet gjordes av 788 00:30:59.741 --> 00:31:00.986 Rundfunk Media.