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This is Ad Infinitum.

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 Ad

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 Infinitum is the award-winning podcast solely focused on audio ads,

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 the creatives who make them,

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 and or the latest thinking that informs them,

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 how the space is evolving,

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 and my favorite...

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 part,

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 a roundup of recent audio ads,

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 a analysis by yours truly,

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 Stu Redwine,

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 and each episode's guest.

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 This is season three,

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 episode 15 of Ad Infinitum,

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 titled Human Hacks.

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 Today,

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 we've got a returning guest,

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 someone whose work has shaped not just how brands think,

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 but how I think.

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 A man who has done more to make behavioral science useful to marketers than anyone not named Kahneman or Cialdini.

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 And speaking of Cialdini.

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 the godfather of influence himself.

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I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse.

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He said of today's guest's new book,

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 I couldn't put it down.

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 That book is Hacking the Human Mind.

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 I'm holding a copy in my hands right now.

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 And our guest is Richard Schott.

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 And welcome to the show,

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 Richard.

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Thank you for having me.

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 It's great to be here.

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 Cheers,

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 Jay.

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Yeah.

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 Great to have you back for sure.

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 We got going right away on a little side quest,

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 so we'll lace that into the show here in a bit.

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 But before we dig in.

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 Let me give you,

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 chief audio officers,

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 ye mighty chief audio officers who are listening,

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 a little context.

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 Hack used to be an insult.

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 A hack writer,

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 a hack artist,

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 someone who phoned it in,

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 sold out,

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 and mailed it home.

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 Today,

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 a hack is a shortcut,

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 a clever trick,

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 a smarter way to get from intention to action.

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 Old hack,

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 unoriginal,

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 new hack,

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 undeniable.

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 And

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 Richard's book is about hacking the human mind.

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 How do we...

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 access,

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 how do we use behavioral science,

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 secrets of behavioral science behind 17 of the world's best brands to persuade people to take action with the tremendous brands and services that we work on and want to be successful.

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 It really struck me coming up with the title for this episode,

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 Human Hacks,

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 because so much of the conversation,

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 especially as AI is in the game,

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 owning the game,

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 running the game is human mediocrity.

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 That's just all I keep thinking of.

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 And it comes from that.

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 documentary the social dilemma where it was like this idea of our fascination and obsession with ai is this idea that ai as the terminator would overcome human strength and really you know the greater concern i mean that's a concern but of equal concern or another concern is ai overcoming human weakness and as a creative with ai here

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 amongst us we're like you know ai rules everything around me.

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 the human mediocrity,

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 the hacks,

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 myself being a hack,

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 having been a hack,

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 of trying to find the easy way.

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 It's like,

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 that is not an option.

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 You've really got to dig in and do your best to make the absolute best work.

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 And some of that's with the tools.

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 And some of that is about knowing what works and how humans work.

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 And that's where this book,

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 like Richard's previous books,

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 comes into play.

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 So we're going to get into it here in just a bit.

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 We're also going to grade some recent top spenders.

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 Courtesy of Magellan AI.

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 Get your free demo at Magellan.ai slash ad infinitum.

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 So Richard,

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 welcome back.

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 The new book is out.

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 It's exploding.

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 Cialdini can't put it down.

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 Rory Sutherland called it a book for the ages.

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 For the chief audio officers listening,

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 what's the hack behind hacking the human mind?

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The hack is always easier to work with human nature than against it.

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 And behavioral science is just...

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 130 years of experiments into how you effectively harness human behavior to get people to change.

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 And I would argue this is as relevant a topic for anyone working in marketing,

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 chief audio officer,

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 pricing specialist,

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 chief marketer.

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 If you're working in marketing,

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 everything you're trying to do is about changing behavior.

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 You want people to buy more of your brand.

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 You want people to switch from a competitor.

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 You want people to pay a premium.

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 They are all questions of behavior change.

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 So why wouldn't you draw on the study of what makes?

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 for effective behavior change.

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 Now,

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 I feel like behavioral science is as relevant as you can get.

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It seems like it.

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 And I just,

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 oh,

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 your opening line was power.

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 Obviously,

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 you practice what you preach.

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 Working with human nature instead of against it.

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 It's like acceptance.

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 Like human nature works a certain way.

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 Work with it.

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 Don't try to think it works some other way.

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Yeah.

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 And this,

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 I should stress,

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 doesn't mean the role of a martyr is just taking a behavioral science

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 bias and plonk it down the communications.

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 It's not that straightforward.

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 All behavioral science does is give you these very robust insights into human nature,

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 but they're essentially hypotheses and they're essentially,

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 they're part of the task.

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 You still need to use your creative nows to get the most out of them.

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 So it's about helping marketers not replace them,

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 definitely.

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I agree with that.

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 You know,

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 the more you know,

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 and there was one that I liked him.

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 in particular that kind of relates to what you and I were talking about earlier,

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 but it's one I think about a lot,

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 which is from the,

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 let me see,

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 this is page 96.

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 Red Bull.

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 Yeah,

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 I mean,

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 I just think Red Bull's bull gives you wings.

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 Anyway,

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 so the spin big to look believable,

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 which you consider an extravagant display.

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 You,

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dear listeners,

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 let me read this to you.

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Also,

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 I want to say what's great about this book is I really like,

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 Richard,

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 how you added the takeaways for each section.

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 So that's very nice.

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 So this is an example,

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 listeners.

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 So from the Red Bull chapter,

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 which you need to listen to or read in total,

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 I've got both the printed copy and the audio copy.

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 Spin big to look believable.

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 Consider an extravagant display of advertising to persuade a skeptical audience.

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 People are far more likely to believe a message if they think the brand is spent heavily on its communications.

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 After all,

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 only a company with genuine faith in the product would invest for the long term.

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 Tell me more about that,

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 Richard.

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The key line is only a company with genuine faith in their product would invest for the long term.

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 So this essentially talks about an idea called...

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 Costly Signaling and the experiment that our co-author and I wrote the book with Michael Aaron Flicker.

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 The experiment we discussed in that chapter is by Amna Kimani and late 80s study recruits a group of people and gives them what looks like a page from a magazine and it's a bit of editorial on a fake trainer brand that is supposedly about to launch in America and the

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 editorial covers why these shoes are amazing and it mentions that Thanks.

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 People like Nike or Reebok spend about $10 million when they launch a trainer.

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 And then it states how much this fake trainer brand is going to spend on advertising.

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 And that's the fact that varies.

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 So some people hear the trainer brand is going to spend

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 $2 million,

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 some $10 million.

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 Some hear that the trainer brand is going to spend $20 million.

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 Some hear it's going to spend $40 million.

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 Everyone is then asked to make a rating of how high quality these trainers are.

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 Now.

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 What people think they're judging is all the facts that are mentioned in the editorial.

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 But of course,

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 what the researcher looks at is the variance in quality rating dependent on the statement about how much the brand is spending on advertising.

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 And what Kamani finds is that if people think the trainer brand is going to spend $20 million on advertising,

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 so twice the normal amount a brand might spend,

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 they rate those trainers at 14%

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 higher quality scores than if they think the brand is just going to spend.

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 $2 million.

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 Because the argument from Kamani is these high spends acts as a screening mechanism.

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 If you have a shoddy product and you know that extravagant advertising only pays back in the long term,

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 you're not going to do it.

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 You know that you've just got to have this,

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 you've got this one-off chance to dupe people.

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 But if you believe your product's amazing and people are going to come back again and again and again,

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 you believe that you're going to generate word of mouth,

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 then you would be prepared to spend extravagantly because you know you can recoup it over the next few years.

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 So Kamani says this extravagant spend acts as a...

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 a screening mechanism.

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 Only someone who genuinely believes in their brand is going to do it.

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 So in this era of procurement,

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 where so many people are trying to drive out the cost of their advertising,

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 they get the lowest possible CPT,

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 buy small placements at the right time,

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 it should just sound a note of caution.

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 And if you look at Red Bull,

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 what they have done through their 10 or 20 years of advertising is spend on some outrageously expensive extravagant stunts,

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 things like the Space Jump.

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 This has been a thing.

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 this has been a theme through their advertising.

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 So yeah,

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 exactly the same details about a product.

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 That's the setup,

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 but you vary what people think it's going to be spending on advertising.

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 You get this very different score in terms of how high quality people think the trainers are.

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And what I infer from that is like,

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 I like the David Ogilvie quote,

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 the customer is not an idiot,

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 she's your wife.

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 So giving people credit that they're intelligent and also they're very intuitive.

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 And so when I think of...

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 the primary space I've been in,

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 which is podcast,

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 is like when you hear an advertiser on every show across every channel,

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 like to the point that they make SNL skits about Blue Apron.

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 I,

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 to me,

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 I guess I want to check my thinking with the expert,

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 which you're the expert.

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 Is that costly signaling that you can afford placements in all these different places?

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 Or is it more like a Super Bowl ad is costly signaling?

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 And what I'm talking about is something else.

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Well,

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 Kamani,

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 you know,

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 what she does is tell people what the ad is going to be,

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 the brand is going to be spending.

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 Thank you.

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 It could be the Super Bowl,

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 you have one massive thing or the repeated frequency.

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 Now,

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 the crucial thing with Amin Khamani is you don't actually hear the ad multiple times.

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 You're just told that this budget is going to be there.

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 So it's this idea that you would only invest if you had this faith in your brand.

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Okay,

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 well,

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 then if I hear that,

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 then I think what's more,

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 then the most direct link you could make is someone hearing the news stories.

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 You know,

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 Super Bowl ads cost $3 million this year.

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 That accomplishes in the most direct way.

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that's fair in a straight line from the studies yes the only reason I'm hesitating is there's something else going on with Blue Apron which is you actually hear the ad multiple times yes now there

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 There you start moving into a different set of experiments.

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00:10:03.281 --> 00:10:03.941
 So there was a

264
00:10:04.422 --> 00:10:05.941
 Polish-American psychologist in the

265
00:10:06.641 --> 00:10:07.621
 1950s called,

266
00:10:07.680 --> 00:10:08.359
 I think it was Robert,

267
00:10:08.602 --> 00:10:09.281
 Robert Zionch,

268
00:10:09.282 --> 00:10:10.766
 I think he was at the University of Michigan.

269
00:10:11.180 --> 00:10:14.625
 And he has this wonderful experiment where he gives people books.

270
00:10:14.781 --> 00:10:17.297
 So they're like big kind of coffee table books.

271
00:10:17.469 --> 00:10:18.422
 And on each page,

272
00:10:18.484 --> 00:10:18.938
 there will be,

273
00:10:19.078 --> 00:10:19.719
 for example,

274
00:10:19.844 --> 00:10:21.078
 a picture of a face.

275
00:10:21.344 --> 00:10:23.438
 And you turn a page and there's another picture of a face.

276
00:10:23.641 --> 00:10:24.141
 And you flick,

277
00:10:24.688 --> 00:10:26.266
 spend 10 minutes flicking through this book.

278
00:10:26.562 --> 00:10:27.125
 At the end,

279
00:10:27.672 --> 00:10:28.891
 Zion asks people...

280
00:10:29.228 --> 00:10:32.451
 to rate the looks of all the photos that they saw.

281
00:10:32.832 --> 00:10:33.051
 Now,

282
00:10:33.231 --> 00:10:34.672
 he doesn't explicitly state it,

283
00:10:35.035 --> 00:10:37.379
 but what he's done is a little experiment.

284
00:10:37.637 --> 00:10:39.496
 Because some of the faces people see,

285
00:10:39.981 --> 00:10:41.160
 they are only shown once.

286
00:10:41.418 --> 00:10:42.238
 Some of those faces,

287
00:10:42.277 --> 00:10:43.520
 they're shown twice,

288
00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:44.465
 some five,

289
00:10:44.481 --> 00:10:44.824
 some 10,

290
00:10:44.926 --> 00:10:45.746
 some 15 times.

291
00:10:46.027 --> 00:10:50.590
 And what Zion shows is that the more regularly people see a face,

292
00:10:50.793 --> 00:10:52.777
 the more beautiful they think that face is.

293
00:10:52.934 --> 00:10:56.059
 So he calls this the mere exposure effect.

294
00:10:56.208 --> 00:10:56.829
 Because remember,

295
00:10:56.889 --> 00:10:59.511
 no extra information is being given about those faces.

296
00:10:59.691 --> 00:11:01.694
 People are just seeing them a few more times.

297
00:11:02.054 --> 00:11:03.155
 But according to Zion,

298
00:11:03.534 --> 00:11:06.675
 he says familiarity breeds contentment,

299
00:11:06.917 --> 00:11:07.597
 not contempt.

300
00:11:07.956 --> 00:11:09.784
 He argues from an evolutionary perspective,

301
00:11:09.862 --> 00:11:14.769
 if we repeatedly see a stimulus and it doesn't hurt us or cause us any pain,

302
00:11:15.003 --> 00:11:17.050
 then we will grow warm to it.

303
00:11:17.862 --> 00:11:19.206
 We don't need more information about it,

304
00:11:19.316 --> 00:11:21.941
 but it's this regularity that breeds that warmth.

305
00:11:22.175 --> 00:11:23.831
 So taking this back to Blue Apron,

306
00:11:24.081 --> 00:11:25.284
 maybe there's two bits going on.

307
00:11:25.504 --> 00:11:31.310
 People recognize that it's only reasonably high quality brands that can appear so often.

308
00:11:31.470 --> 00:11:32.291
 But Zions would say,

309
00:11:32.373 --> 00:11:32.670
 actually,

310
00:11:32.752 --> 00:11:32.970
 also,

311
00:11:33.052 --> 00:11:34.154
 it's this mere exposure effect.

312
00:11:34.170 --> 00:11:37.091
 It's simply as people become more familiar with it,

313
00:11:37.295 --> 00:11:38.896
 even if they learn nothing about it,

314
00:11:38.998 --> 00:11:41.857
 even if the ad was just saying Blue Apron repeatedly,

315
00:11:42.045 --> 00:11:43.716
 they would become warmer to it over time.

316
00:11:43.998 --> 00:11:44.123
Oh,

317
00:11:44.529 --> 00:11:44.748
 man,

318
00:11:44.779 --> 00:11:45.779
 this stuff is like,

319
00:11:45.951 --> 00:11:47.451
 I need to listen to your book every day.

320
00:11:47.810 --> 00:11:48.482
 It's incredible.

321
00:11:48.545 --> 00:11:50.107
And there are practical implications to it,

322
00:11:50.373 --> 00:11:51.607
 especially in Britain.

323
00:11:51.685 --> 00:11:52.357
 This is where I'm from,

324
00:11:52.388 --> 00:11:54.560
 so pick me up if there are American differences.

325
00:11:54.680 --> 00:11:55.381
 But in Britain,

326
00:11:55.801 --> 00:11:58.544
 the chopping and changing that big brands do.

327
00:11:58.785 --> 00:11:59.023
Yeah,

328
00:11:59.265 --> 00:12:01.507
average marketing director lasts about 18 months.

329
00:12:01.726 --> 00:12:04.851
 They're always changing direction and strapline and creative approach.

330
00:12:05.148 --> 00:12:06.515
 Zinesh would say this is crazy.

331
00:12:06.734 --> 00:12:06.851
 No,

332
00:12:07.249 --> 00:12:08.413
 each time you change,

333
00:12:08.656 --> 00:12:12.171
 you lose some of this familiarity and you have to start again.

334
00:12:12.359 --> 00:12:12.499
 Now,

335
00:12:12.624 --> 00:12:15.546
 maybe there are extreme circumstances where you need to do something different.

336
00:12:15.593 --> 00:12:16.562
 Of course,

337
00:12:16.577 --> 00:12:17.390
 we've got to be realistic.

338
00:12:17.499 --> 00:12:24.312
 But you should only change creative direction in the most extreme of circumstances because you're losing all these.

339
00:12:24.372 --> 00:12:26.154
 benefits of the mere exposure effect.

340
00:12:26.555 --> 00:12:26.793
I mean,

341
00:12:26.854 --> 00:12:27.815
 think about this.

342
00:12:28.215 --> 00:12:30.176
 The people you love the most.

343
00:12:30.219 --> 00:12:30.657
I love you.

344
00:12:30.860 --> 00:12:31.321
 I love you.

345
00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:32.079
 I love you.

346
00:12:32.539 --> 00:12:32.860
 Yes.

347
00:12:32.977 --> 00:12:35.625
Their face doesn't change every six months.

348
00:12:36.024 --> 00:12:41.243
 That would terrify you if your wife's face changed every six months.

349
00:12:42.524 --> 00:12:43.352
 Think about that.

350
00:12:43.446 --> 00:12:44.352
 I've never thought of that.

351
00:12:44.977 --> 00:12:46.508
There's a slightly surreal thought,

352
00:12:46.555 --> 00:12:47.414
but yeah.

353
00:12:47.477 --> 00:12:48.180
 I love surreal.

354
00:12:48.696 --> 00:12:49.602
 Here's the one I think of,

355
00:12:49.664 --> 00:12:49.993
 Richard.

356
00:12:50.289 --> 00:12:52.993
 Realistically is Disneyland here in the United States.

357
00:12:53.268 --> 00:12:53.588
 since what,

358
00:12:53.589 --> 00:12:54.489
 1959,

359
00:12:54.490 --> 00:12:55.570
 that castle hasn't changed,

360
00:12:57.152 --> 00:12:57.371
 right?

361
00:12:57.574 --> 00:12:59.074
 I don't want it to change.

362
00:12:59.434 --> 00:13:00.535
 I've taken my kids there.

363
00:13:00.555 --> 00:13:01.676
 I want to take my grandkids there.

364
00:13:01.677 --> 00:13:02.715
 My parents took me there.

365
00:13:02.934 --> 00:13:03.395
 Like I,

366
00:13:03.481 --> 00:13:06.020
 that's the one that I think of a lot as something staying the same.

367
00:13:06.043 --> 00:13:06.262
 Anyway,

368
00:13:06.277 --> 00:13:07.121
 I want to keep this on the track.

369
00:13:07.160 --> 00:13:08.082
 I could talk to you forever.

370
00:13:08.246 --> 00:13:09.840
 I just have to say to the chief audio officers,

371
00:13:09.887 --> 00:13:15.402
 and we got a bunch of these books at the office and are giving them to folks as well to read and look through.

372
00:13:15.449 --> 00:13:15.887
 I'm just like,

373
00:13:15.949 --> 00:13:18.246
 there's so much in here that's so valuable.

374
00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:22.060
 You break down how 17 of the world's best brands from Five Guys to Liquid Death,

375
00:13:22.082 --> 00:13:23.021
 who I also love,

376
00:13:23.099 --> 00:13:23.802
 to Dyson,

377
00:13:23.962 --> 00:13:25.802
 all tap specific behavioral biases,

378
00:13:25.822 --> 00:13:27.166
 whether they realize it or not.

379
00:13:27.361 --> 00:13:31.041
 You keep a real cool head every time I've taught you about this and I've read all your books.

380
00:13:31.322 --> 00:13:32.205
 I do want to know,

381
00:13:32.486 --> 00:13:32.705
 like,

382
00:13:32.845 --> 00:13:39.369
 what of all of the ones is there one that has surprised you the most as you've continued to pull apart behavioral science?

383
00:13:39.900 --> 00:13:45.884
I think one of the experiments that's most surprising and I think is super relevant for audio is concreteness.

384
00:13:46.259 --> 00:13:48.119
 And it's more because of the scale.

385
00:13:48.308 --> 00:13:51.712
 scale of the results rather than the underlying point.

386
00:13:51.952 --> 00:13:55.276
 So the original studies were done back in 1972 by Ian Beck.

387
00:13:55.393 --> 00:13:57.616
 He was a psychologist at the University of Western Ontario.

388
00:13:57.874 --> 00:13:58.897
 And really simple study.

389
00:13:59.140 --> 00:14:01.804
 He reads out 22 word phrases.

390
00:14:02.022 --> 00:14:03.983
For those of us with copies of the book,

391
00:14:04.085 --> 00:14:04.280
 sorry,

392
00:14:04.382 --> 00:14:04.663
 Richard,

393
00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:05.226
 sorry to interrupt.

394
00:14:05.241 --> 00:14:06.491
This is in the Apple chapter.

395
00:14:06.601 --> 00:14:07.022
Thank you.

396
00:14:07.163 --> 00:14:08.069
 So for you listeners,

397
00:14:08.147 --> 00:14:09.772
 it's in the Apple chapter,

398
00:14:10.413 --> 00:14:11.413
 which is fantastic.

399
00:14:11.476 --> 00:14:12.726
 I can't recommend it enough.

400
00:14:13.038 --> 00:14:15.101
 And we're going to be talking about concreteness.

401
00:14:15.116 --> 00:14:16.835
 I'm going to give you a page number as well,

402
00:14:16.976 --> 00:14:17.397
 everybody.

403
00:14:17.604 --> 00:14:19.525
 For those of you that want to read along,

404
00:14:19.865 --> 00:14:23.889
 page 41 in Hacking the Human Mind by Richard Shotton and

405
00:14:24.412 --> 00:14:25.693
 Michael Aaron Flicker.

406
00:14:26.131 --> 00:14:27.311
 We need to make sure we,

407
00:14:27.514 --> 00:14:28.818
 and they also do a podcast,

408
00:14:28.857 --> 00:14:29.600
 which is very good.

409
00:14:29.818 --> 00:14:30.256
 But anyway,

410
00:14:30.459 --> 00:14:30.998
 you were saying,

411
00:14:31.037 --> 00:14:31.334
 Richard.

412
00:14:31.436 --> 00:14:33.022
So Begg recruits this group of people,

413
00:14:33.318 --> 00:14:35.006
 reads out 22 word phrases,

414
00:14:35.162 --> 00:14:39.990
 and then he asks people later on to write down as many of the phrases as they can remember.

415
00:14:40.225 --> 00:14:40.350
 Now,

416
00:14:40.365 --> 00:14:42.553
 he doesn't tell people this explicitly,

417
00:14:42.834 --> 00:14:45.068
 but half of the words he reads out.

418
00:14:45.312 --> 00:14:47.374
 are what he calls concrete phrases.

419
00:14:47.554 --> 00:14:50.876
 So these are crucially tangible things that you can visualize,

420
00:14:51.177 --> 00:14:52.681
 like a white horse or a square door.

421
00:14:52.821 --> 00:14:53.899
 That's a concrete phrase.

422
00:14:54.118 --> 00:14:57.087
 The other half of the words are what he calls abstract phrases,

423
00:14:57.587 --> 00:15:00.829
 intangible ideas like subtle fault or impossible amount.

424
00:15:01.048 --> 00:15:06.149
 And when people come back with their memories later on,

425
00:15:06.493 --> 00:15:08.899
 what Begg finds is that on average,

426
00:15:09.462 --> 00:15:10.478
 people remember 9%

427
00:15:10.634 --> 00:15:11.462
 of the abstractions,

428
00:15:11.681 --> 00:15:12.993
 but they remember 36%

429
00:15:13.384 --> 00:15:14.368
 of the concrete phrases.

430
00:15:14.532 --> 00:15:18.416
 So you've got this massive fourfold difference in memorability.

431
00:15:18.598 --> 00:15:19.258
 According to Begg,

432
00:15:19.496 --> 00:15:21.039
 vision is the most powerful of our senses.

433
00:15:21.438 --> 00:15:24.481
 So if you use language people can visualize,

434
00:15:24.645 --> 00:15:25.606
 it lodges in the mind.

435
00:15:25.864 --> 00:15:27.465
 If you use abstract language,

436
00:15:27.824 --> 00:15:28.645
 it's very forgettable.

437
00:15:28.949 --> 00:15:30.746
 Think now about audio.

438
00:15:31.121 --> 00:15:35.512
 How many brands talk about being high quality or freebie,

439
00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:36.246
 more trustworthy?

440
00:15:36.590 --> 00:15:41.043
 They are talking about simple ideas that we all have the cognitive capability of understanding,

441
00:15:41.293 --> 00:15:42.278
 but because they're abstract.

442
00:15:42.656 --> 00:15:43.557
 People cannot remember.

443
00:15:43.658 --> 00:15:49.904
 What the best brands do is they translate the objectives on the brief into language people can visualize.

444
00:15:50.025 --> 00:15:50.142
 Now,

445
00:15:50.143 --> 00:15:51.369
 we were talking about Red Bull earlier.

446
00:15:51.728 --> 00:15:52.869
 Red Bull didn't say

447
00:15:53.306 --> 00:15:54.111
 Red Bull gives you energy.

448
00:15:54.369 --> 00:15:55.290
 That would have been abstract.

449
00:15:55.392 --> 00:15:57.470
 What they say instead is Red Bull gives you wings.

450
00:15:57.572 --> 00:15:59.275
 And because you can picture wings,

451
00:15:59.276 --> 00:16:00.572
 you can picture someone flapping.

452
00:16:00.573 --> 00:16:05.259
 That is a message that is far more likely to stick in someone's mind.

453
00:16:05.630 --> 00:16:09.930
 So that was one of the most surprising findings because of the scale.

454
00:16:10.031 --> 00:16:12.750
 A fourfold difference is huge.

455
00:16:13.090 --> 00:16:19.035
 And I think it's surprising that it's still not applied universally across advertising.

456
00:16:19.113 --> 00:16:21.113
 There's such an opportunity that's being missed out.

457
00:16:21.395 --> 00:16:22.918
That is a great one.

458
00:16:23.137 --> 00:16:29.934
 And it makes me want to segue into what can be touchy territory for many of us on the planet right now,

459
00:16:30.168 --> 00:16:31.231
 which is the phrase,

460
00:16:31.777 --> 00:16:33.043
 make America great again.

461
00:16:33.158 --> 00:16:33.338
I mean,

462
00:16:33.339 --> 00:16:34.279
 it's a bit of communication.

463
00:16:34.340 --> 00:16:34.980
 It's brilliant.

464
00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:35.179
 I mean,

465
00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.322
 you separate it from the policies behind it,

466
00:16:38.323 --> 00:16:39.525
 but there's a bit of communication.

467
00:16:39.584 --> 00:16:40.646
 I think you've got to admire it.

468
00:16:40.845 --> 00:16:41.986
And I think it's concrete.

469
00:16:42.088 --> 00:16:42.283
Yeah.

470
00:16:42.385 --> 00:16:44.049
 So I think there's a few things going on.

471
00:16:44.205 --> 00:16:45.908
I feel like it's walking the line a little,

472
00:16:45.909 --> 00:16:47.994
 but I feel like it's more concrete than not concrete.

473
00:16:48.150 --> 00:16:48.291
Well,

474
00:16:48.377 --> 00:16:49.611
 the classic example of

475
00:16:50.033 --> 00:16:52.970
 Trump doing something concrete was around immigration policy.

476
00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:53.345
 Now,

477
00:16:53.346 --> 00:16:58.283
 I saw this wonderful presentation once where someone put up a couple of paragraphs of

478
00:16:58.767 --> 00:17:01.127
 Hillary Clinton's first election,

479
00:17:01.128 --> 00:17:02.142
 her thoughts on immigration.

480
00:17:02.462 --> 00:17:05.064
 And it looked like a postgraduate dissertation.

481
00:17:05.445 --> 00:17:05.685
 You know,

482
00:17:05.826 --> 00:17:06.627
 I read it,

483
00:17:06.728 --> 00:17:07.646
 couldn't really understand it.

484
00:17:07.908 --> 00:17:08.549
 And thinking,

485
00:17:08.568 --> 00:17:08.970
 oh gosh,

486
00:17:09.267 --> 00:17:10.088
 I feel a bit stupid.

487
00:17:10.228 --> 00:17:11.189
 Quickly trying to read it again,

488
00:17:11.267 --> 00:17:12.392
 see if I can understand the second run.

489
00:17:12.509 --> 00:17:13.572
 And then they put up Trump,

490
00:17:13.892 --> 00:17:14.392
 build a wall.

491
00:17:14.572 --> 00:17:14.697
 Now,

492
00:17:15.197 --> 00:17:18.822
 that to me is one of the most extreme differences.

493
00:17:19.416 --> 00:17:19.884
 And

494
00:17:20.275 --> 00:17:25.119
 Clinton was so abstract in many of her areas that it just washed over people.

495
00:17:25.197 --> 00:17:26.384
 But if you say build a wall,

496
00:17:26.869 --> 00:17:27.041
 well,

497
00:17:27.042 --> 00:17:28.541
 I've got a mental picture of it.

498
00:17:28.806 --> 00:17:30.150
 And because I'm visualizing it,

499
00:17:30.431 --> 00:17:31.338
 it sticks.

500
00:17:31.822 --> 00:17:35.965
 Just because you get someone to remember something doesn't mean it's going to be a successful piece of persuasion.

501
00:17:36.368 --> 00:17:38.989
 But what we can say is if they don't remember what you're saying,

502
00:17:39.090 --> 00:17:41.391
 we know you've got a useless piece of communication.

503
00:17:41.469 --> 00:17:41.594
 So,

504
00:17:42.008 --> 00:17:42.133
 yeah,

505
00:17:42.516 --> 00:17:45.914
 I certainly think he uses some of these tactics and like him or loathe him.

506
00:17:46.157 --> 00:17:46.274
 Now,

507
00:17:46.313 --> 00:17:48.680
 I think we should learn from him,

508
00:17:48.681 --> 00:17:49.961
 whatever political persuasion we are.

509
00:17:50.164 --> 00:17:55.805
 Just because I don't agree with Trump doesn't mean I can't see that he has many very powerful persuasive abilities.

510
00:17:55.899 --> 00:17:59.727
 And you don't have to adopt his moral code to use some of those things.

511
00:17:59.852 --> 00:18:00.633
 I think you're at

512
00:18:00.718 --> 00:18:18.772
absolutely absolutely right but i would fear doing it for people just coming at you yeah yeah no i mean it's just i think hit time will tell yeah and it's like the make america great again so spoke to an emotional need where it's like it's kind of like to me it's the bar as

513
00:18:18.773 --> 00:18:27.459
 an advertiser you need to find the make america great again for the campaign you're working on yeah you need to find because that lit up tens of millions of Americans.

514
00:18:27.772 --> 00:18:28.069
 We're like,

515
00:18:28.100 --> 00:18:28.350
 yeah,

516
00:18:28.647 --> 00:18:28.959
 yeah.

517
00:18:29.670 --> 00:18:33.615
 And the iconography and just repeating it and being distinct.

518
00:18:33.896 --> 00:18:34.334
And funny.

519
00:18:34.635 --> 00:18:34.795
Yeah.

520
00:18:34.935 --> 00:18:35.756
 And funny.

521
00:18:35.916 --> 00:18:36.138
 Yeah,

522
00:18:36.139 --> 00:18:36.459
you're right.

523
00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:37.256
 Simple,

524
00:18:37.439 --> 00:18:38.076
 concrete,

525
00:18:38.357 --> 00:18:38.982
 repeated,

526
00:18:39.162 --> 00:18:40.357
 taps into loss aversion.

527
00:18:40.358 --> 00:18:41.818
 We're looking for this golden past.

528
00:18:42.021 --> 00:18:42.365
 And also,

529
00:18:42.420 --> 00:18:42.545
 yeah,

530
00:18:42.826 --> 00:18:43.881
 I do believe funny.

531
00:18:44.224 --> 00:18:48.256
 That's why I think Vance might not succeed in the same way.

532
00:18:48.709 --> 00:18:51.131
 Because he's not got Trump's cruel humor.

533
00:18:51.428 --> 00:18:52.099
 Or his greatest cruelty,

534
00:18:52.115 --> 00:18:52.771
 but maybe he's not humor.

535
00:18:52.974 --> 00:18:53.115
Well,

536
00:18:53.116 --> 00:18:53.928
 and he's trying.

537
00:18:53.959 --> 00:18:57.021
 He's like trying to lean in on the joke,

538
00:18:57.131 --> 00:18:58.099
 like for Halloween.

539
00:18:58.370 --> 00:18:59.211
 But you can just see it.

540
00:18:59.212 --> 00:19:00.091
 You can just see it.

541
00:19:00.152 --> 00:19:00.412
 You know,

542
00:19:00.453 --> 00:19:01.232
 you can see it.

543
00:19:01.233 --> 00:19:01.474
 I mean,

544
00:19:01.794 --> 00:19:08.818
 I'm a big fan of science fiction and growing up read the Foundation series and which is a retelling of the history of the Roman Empire.

545
00:19:08.904 --> 00:19:10.044
 And the one character that,

546
00:19:10.060 --> 00:19:10.279
 you know,

547
00:19:10.302 --> 00:19:10.943
 Harry Seldon,

548
00:19:10.982 --> 00:19:12.326
 who's able to predict human behavior,

549
00:19:12.327 --> 00:19:13.185
 a lot of what you do,

550
00:19:13.326 --> 00:19:13.568
 right?

551
00:19:13.787 --> 00:19:15.310
 Being able to predict what people are going to do.

552
00:19:15.311 --> 00:19:16.388
 He could predict large groups,

553
00:19:16.389 --> 00:19:17.591
 but he couldn't predict individuals.

554
00:19:17.592 --> 00:19:18.513
 And there was this individual,

555
00:19:18.514 --> 00:19:20.404
 the mule that threw everything off.

556
00:19:20.857 --> 00:19:24.076
 It's like so obviously President Trump is a one in a million,

557
00:19:24.077 --> 00:19:24.841
 one in a billion.

558
00:19:26.070 --> 00:19:48.392
 billion that just nobody can predict where this thing's gonna go yeah it's incredible anyway didn't mean to make this a political i just you know man it's good to hear you say what you said because i was at a conference a podcast conference and it was like it was literally in the wake of what you know many over here have called you know the podcast election where president trump goes on Joe Rogan and Kamala Harris does.

559
00:19:48.657 --> 00:19:48.939
 Right.

560
00:19:49.126 --> 00:19:49.392
 And.

561
00:19:49.900 --> 00:19:54.243
 Nobody was talking about it at a podcast conference in like March or April.

562
00:19:54.724 --> 00:19:55.485
 And you're just like,

563
00:19:55.525 --> 00:19:55.966
 guys,

564
00:19:56.446 --> 00:19:57.446
 at a certain point,

565
00:19:57.548 --> 00:20:00.810
 your rage or your whatever it is,

566
00:20:01.349 --> 00:20:02.614
 maybe it's a moral standard.

567
00:20:02.896 --> 00:20:07.411
 You're blind to a massively successful advertising campaign,

568
00:20:07.864 --> 00:20:08.599
 which is crazy.

569
00:20:08.864 --> 00:20:11.599
You take learnings from all political expressions,

570
00:20:11.677 --> 00:20:12.896
 all products,

571
00:20:13.021 --> 00:20:13.849
 good or bad.

572
00:20:13.942 --> 00:20:17.349
 You don't have to use the learning to the same end.

573
00:20:17.784 --> 00:20:22.410
 People who dismiss Trump just as bad and pantomime villain.

574
00:20:22.711 --> 00:20:22.929
 Well,

575
00:20:22.949 --> 00:20:26.070
 there are lots of pantomime villains and they haven't come from nowhere to president.

576
00:20:26.109 --> 00:20:28.578
 He's obviously doing something alongside that.

577
00:20:28.632 --> 00:20:29.976
 And it's the bits alongside,

578
00:20:30.015 --> 00:20:30.578
 like you mentioned,

579
00:20:30.593 --> 00:20:30.976
 simplicity,

580
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:31.476
 repetition,

581
00:20:31.601 --> 00:20:32.078
 concreteness,

582
00:20:32.101 --> 00:20:32.336
 humor.

583
00:20:32.375 --> 00:20:33.343
 That's what we can learn from.

584
00:20:33.781 --> 00:20:34.234
For sure.

585
00:20:34.421 --> 00:20:34.843
Back in

586
00:20:35.265 --> 00:20:39.343
 2016, we had the vote to stay in or out of Europe.

587
00:20:39.531 --> 00:20:40.984
 And there was two camps,

588
00:20:41.968 --> 00:20:43.296
 Remain and Leave.

589
00:20:43.390 --> 00:20:45.828
 And the Leave camp was one of the key stretches.

590
00:20:45.829 --> 00:20:47.171
 It was a guy called Dominic Cummings.

591
00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:49.902
 And the original line was going to be,

592
00:20:50.623 --> 00:20:51.244
 take control.

593
00:20:51.726 --> 00:20:51.984
 You know,

594
00:20:52.125 --> 00:20:55.726
 we've supposedly lost sovereignty to the EU.

595
00:20:55.851 --> 00:20:56.906
 Let's take that control.

596
00:20:57.172 --> 00:20:58.148
 And Cummings'

597
00:20:58.289 --> 00:21:00.351
 idea was inserting the word back,

598
00:21:00.476 --> 00:21:01.234
 take back control,

599
00:21:01.390 --> 00:21:02.195
 because he argued,

600
00:21:02.196 --> 00:21:03.757
 and this is a principle in behavioral science,

601
00:21:03.758 --> 00:21:04.242
 he said,

602
00:21:04.570 --> 00:21:11.742
 it's much more powerful to position something as being lost and we're regaining it than just an upside.

603
00:21:12.007 --> 00:21:14.445
 And there are studies going back to what...

604
00:21:14.496 --> 00:21:15.617
 probably the mid-70s,

605
00:21:15.796 --> 00:21:17.517
 into this idea of loss aversion.

606
00:21:17.816 --> 00:21:19.898
 So exactly mathematically,

607
00:21:20.218 --> 00:21:21.117
 the same number,

608
00:21:21.118 --> 00:21:22.437
 if it's positioned as a loss,

609
00:21:22.538 --> 00:21:24.499
 affects us more than it's positioned as a gain.

610
00:21:24.781 --> 00:21:26.460
 I understand it sounds very abstract,

611
00:21:26.476 --> 00:21:29.218
 so an example experiment may make it clear.

612
00:21:29.219 --> 00:21:31.273
 1988 study by Elliot Aronson,

613
00:21:31.585 --> 00:21:32.242
 he was at Harvard,

614
00:21:32.382 --> 00:21:35.867
 goes around to homes and tries to sell people loft insulation.

615
00:21:36.101 --> 00:21:37.163
 And sometimes he says,

616
00:21:37.476 --> 00:21:38.726
 take out the loft insulation,

617
00:21:39.007 --> 00:21:40.742
 you'll save 75 cents a day.

618
00:21:40.976 --> 00:21:41.945
 Other times he says,

619
00:21:42.007 --> 00:21:43.195
 take out the loft insulation.

620
00:21:43.384 --> 00:21:44.325
 or you'll be wasting

621
00:21:44.746 --> 00:21:46.027
 75 cents a day.

622
00:21:46.347 --> 00:21:46.467
 Now,

623
00:21:46.468 --> 00:21:47.668
 in both scenarios,

624
00:21:47.769 --> 00:21:49.488
 we're talking about the same lump sum,

625
00:21:49.531 --> 00:21:50.570
 75 cents a day.

626
00:21:50.730 --> 00:21:52.715
 But when he frames it as a loss,

627
00:21:52.832 --> 00:21:54.715
 when he emphasizes what you could be missing out on,

628
00:21:54.894 --> 00:21:55.738
 he gets 56%

629
00:21:56.019 --> 00:21:59.222
 more people signing up for the loft insulation service.

630
00:21:59.558 --> 00:21:59.683
 So

631
00:22:00.246 --> 00:22:02.808
 I think make America great again.

632
00:22:03.027 --> 00:22:05.152
 It's that again part that's so powerful.

633
00:22:05.543 --> 00:22:10.293
 Returning to these supposed glory days is much more powerful than just making America great.

634
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:11.241
No doubt.

635
00:22:11.421 --> 00:22:11.702
 Richard,

636
00:22:11.761 --> 00:22:17.227
 one last thing I want to mention to you before we get into grading the ads is I don't know if I'm going to do it this year.

637
00:22:17.508 --> 00:22:18.645
 I'm toying with the idea.

638
00:22:18.911 --> 00:22:20.707
 I want it possibly next year.

639
00:22:21.051 --> 00:22:21.848
 It's so noncommittal.

640
00:22:22.028 --> 00:22:22.512
 Nevertheless,

641
00:22:22.513 --> 00:22:22.770
 you know,

642
00:22:22.809 --> 00:22:23.356
 Dave Trott.

643
00:22:23.411 --> 00:22:23.536
Oh,

644
00:22:23.614 --> 00:22:24.012
 yeah.

645
00:22:24.192 --> 00:22:39.754
So he talked about I read a post of his from a couple of years ago and like every year I go back to it about the origins of the Christmas Carol that that was a they came to Charles Dickens to write this like thing about the plight of the poor man's child.

646
00:22:39.786 --> 00:22:39.926
 Yeah.

647
00:22:40.164 --> 00:22:41.886
 And it's an even longer title than that.

648
00:22:41.926 --> 00:22:43.968
 And then he came back with The Christmas Carol.

649
00:22:44.048 --> 00:22:46.489
 And it's this idea of storytelling versus rational.

650
00:22:47.212 --> 00:22:50.294
 So what I want to do is I want to do an advertising Christmas Carol.

651
00:22:50.536 --> 00:22:54.161
 And the characters that I want to do is the ghost of advertising past is Coca-Cola.

652
00:22:54.481 --> 00:22:56.888
 The ghost of advertising present is Red Bull.

653
00:22:57.185 --> 00:22:59.497
 And the ghost of advertising yet to come is Liquid Death.

654
00:22:59.622 --> 00:22:59.747
Oh,

655
00:22:59.825 --> 00:23:00.325
 nice.

656
00:23:00.341 --> 00:23:02.013
And then I saw like all of those.

657
00:23:02.060 --> 00:23:02.341
 I mean,

658
00:23:02.403 --> 00:23:03.247
 two of those are in here.

659
00:23:03.263 --> 00:23:04.841
 I don't think you got Coca-Cola in here.

660
00:23:05.185 --> 00:23:05.310
No,

661
00:23:05.325 --> 00:23:05.450
 no,

662
00:23:05.575 --> 00:23:05.685
 no,

663
00:23:05.686 --> 00:23:05.747
 no,

664
00:23:05.748 --> 00:23:06.091
 we don't.

665
00:23:06.106 --> 00:23:07.169
Which is understandable.

666
00:23:07.294 --> 00:23:09.028
 But it's a great ghost of advertising.

667
00:23:09.180 --> 00:23:12.704
 past because I feel like Coca-Cola and modern advertising,

668
00:23:12.723 --> 00:23:15.327
 at least in the United States of America for the first,

669
00:23:15.526 --> 00:23:15.768
 you know,

670
00:23:16.006 --> 00:23:18.209
 hundred years is almost synonymous.

671
00:23:18.686 --> 00:23:19.952
 And then we've got Red Bull.

672
00:23:20.170 --> 00:23:21.311
 I think they do cool stuff.

673
00:23:21.389 --> 00:23:21.631
 And then,

674
00:23:21.632 --> 00:23:21.811
 I mean,

675
00:23:21.850 --> 00:23:25.459
 Liquid Death is a skeleton and the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come is always a skeleton.

676
00:23:25.819 --> 00:23:27.397
 So what do you think of those three choices?

677
00:23:27.662 --> 00:23:28.975
I think that could be very nice.

678
00:23:29.147 --> 00:23:29.897
 That's very nice.

679
00:23:29.912 --> 00:23:30.037
 Yeah.

680
00:23:30.241 --> 00:23:30.506
 Love it.

681
00:23:30.678 --> 00:23:32.006
And you could play Charles Dickens.

682
00:23:32.444 --> 00:23:32.662
Yes.

683
00:23:32.787 --> 00:23:33.850
 I've got the sideburns.

684
00:23:35.421 --> 00:23:50.919
oh yeah but i love that i remember i read that from dave try and i think it makes it i don't know if there's something from your i can't keep it all in my mind it staggers me how you keep it all in your mind is there something in all the behavioral science stuff about storytelling versus hitting people with facts versus telling stories sorry

685
00:23:50.920 --> 00:24:00.747
the one that there's a great book i think this is tarzan economics by will page i think it's from this but how he talks about how art is affected by money.

686
00:24:01.656 --> 00:24:03.277
 And he has all these examples.

687
00:24:03.338 --> 00:24:05.199
 I think he's mainly focused on music.

688
00:24:05.461 --> 00:24:06.082
 So he says,

689
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:06.340
 look,

690
00:24:06.660 --> 00:24:07.641
 when the

691
00:24:10.285 --> 00:24:13.246
 1940s, 50s jukeboxes were essentially controlled by the mafia,

692
00:24:13.551 --> 00:24:22.043
 there was strong pressure put onto people to do very short songs because the mafia who controlled the jukeboxes wanted to get as much money per hour as possible.

693
00:24:22.121 --> 00:24:23.933
 He talks about how with

694
00:24:24.277 --> 00:24:27.355
 Spotify you get paid after 30 seconds.

695
00:24:27.637 --> 00:24:29.543
 So if someone stops listening before 30 seconds,

696
00:24:29.544 --> 00:24:30.418
 the artist gets nothing.

697
00:24:30.652 --> 00:24:36.238
 Hence the shortening of songs and the death of the classic rock long intro.

698
00:24:36.719 --> 00:24:38.844
 Stairway to Heaven would not come out today.

699
00:24:39.742 --> 00:24:41.179
 And when you were talking about Charles Dickens,

700
00:24:41.180 --> 00:24:45.047
 the only thing I could think was he's quite famous for his verbosity.

701
00:24:45.367 --> 00:24:48.117
 And I think he was essentially paid by the word.

702
00:24:48.148 --> 00:24:49.836
 So all of his novels were serious.

703
00:24:50.436 --> 00:25:11.320
so you know he's paid every thousand words so he is a very long-winded man he's like i'm gonna pull this out yeah this is gonna have nine adjectives when one could do what i was wondering about was i was wondering if you would go here but i'm gonna lead you is on your podcast you recently had will store the author of the science of storytelling yes tell

704
00:25:11.321 --> 00:25:18.304
me more about that because that was very fascinating to me so will store is absolutely fantastic if people haven't read it get

705
00:25:18.548 --> 00:25:19.809
 The Science of Storytelling.

706
00:25:19.869 --> 00:25:28.035
 So it's a brilliant book for any copywriter because rather than just give people suggestions and rules for better writing,

707
00:25:28.121 --> 00:25:34.402
 he looks at many of the kind of psychological underpinnings of what makes for good writing.

708
00:25:34.660 --> 00:25:34.785
 So

709
00:25:35.722 --> 00:25:36.925
 I think that I'm trying to think.

710
00:25:37.066 --> 00:25:37.347
 Okay.

711
00:25:37.348 --> 00:25:40.582
 So one of the areas we talked about was the power of simplicity.

712
00:25:41.035 --> 00:25:45.894
 And if anyone is listening who works for a finance brand or a B2B company,

713
00:25:46.129 --> 00:25:48.144
 they definitely need to apply this idea.

714
00:25:48.280 --> 00:25:51.064
 So there's a psychologist,

715
00:25:51.484 --> 00:25:53.404
 it's Daniel Oppenheimer.

716
00:25:53.587 --> 00:25:54.345
 So he's at Princeton.

717
00:25:54.427 --> 00:25:55.767
 I think it was 2006.

718
00:25:56.068 --> 00:25:58.126
 He does this amazing experiment.

719
00:25:58.290 --> 00:25:58.408
 Well,

720
00:25:58.431 --> 00:25:58.626
 actually,

721
00:25:58.627 --> 00:25:59.728
 this experiment is quite good.

722
00:26:00.009 --> 00:26:02.376
 The title of the experiment is amazing.

723
00:26:02.454 --> 00:26:08.517
 So the paper is called Consequences of Erudite Vernacular Utilized Irrespective of Necessity.

724
00:26:08.814 --> 00:26:13.064
 And then there's a colon and it says problems with using long words needlessly.

725
00:26:13.345 --> 00:26:16.173
 And what Oppenheimer does is recruit a group of people.

726
00:26:16.544 --> 00:26:20.127
 And he gets them to read short bits of text.

727
00:26:20.309 --> 00:26:22.051
 So they're taken from academic journals.

728
00:26:22.328 --> 00:26:27.477
 Sometimes people are shown the original text and it always has some unnecessary complications in there.

729
00:26:27.578 --> 00:26:28.414
 Some really verbose,

730
00:26:28.555 --> 00:26:29.696
 jargony words.

731
00:26:30.141 --> 00:26:30.758
 And then that.

732
00:26:31.366 --> 00:26:33.548
group of readers rate the intelligence of the author.

733
00:26:34.249 --> 00:26:35.770
 Oppenheimer then gets a new group of people,

734
00:26:36.130 --> 00:26:38.212
 shows them basically the same text,

735
00:26:38.532 --> 00:26:42.598
 but he replaces some of those really complex words with simpler alternatives.

736
00:26:42.958 --> 00:26:43.138
 Now,

737
00:26:43.177 --> 00:26:45.138
 when that group rate the intelligence of the author,

738
00:26:45.161 --> 00:26:45.903
 that second group,

739
00:26:46.059 --> 00:26:48.098
 they rate the author as 13%

740
00:26:48.177 --> 00:26:50.223
 more intelligent than the original group.

741
00:26:50.692 --> 00:26:54.395
 Oppenheimer says this clashes with most people's expectations.

742
00:26:54.661 --> 00:26:56.630
 Most writers think,

743
00:26:56.989 --> 00:26:58.848
 or certainly most B2B writers,

744
00:26:58.958 --> 00:26:59.833
 they think the way

745
00:27:00.086 --> 00:27:02.928
 to impress the audience is to use lots of complexity.

746
00:27:03.130 --> 00:27:03.831
 But actually,

747
00:27:03.969 --> 00:27:06.432
 that tends to irritate the reader.

748
00:27:06.433 --> 00:27:07.495
 They get confused.

749
00:27:07.592 --> 00:27:09.596
 And the reader doesn't blame themselves for that confusion.

750
00:27:09.597 --> 00:27:10.839
 They blame the author.

751
00:27:11.120 --> 00:27:12.917
 So his argument would be,

752
00:27:13.542 --> 00:27:14.604
 wherever possible,

753
00:27:14.698 --> 00:27:21.932
 you want to be using simple tools like Hemingway or other reading grade tools and getting that reading age down as low as possible,

754
00:27:22.089 --> 00:27:26.417
 because actually it will reflect well on you as a brand not to track through your image.

755
00:27:26.792 --> 00:27:27.870
 And especially...

756
00:27:28.438 --> 00:27:30.641
 But sectors that are important,

757
00:27:30.661 --> 00:27:30.901
 you know,

758
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:32.641
 things like finance or pharma or B2B,

759
00:27:33.063 --> 00:27:37.368
 I think many of those marketers think because they're selling such important products,

760
00:27:37.383 --> 00:27:39.251
 they need to speak in a very serious,

761
00:27:39.586 --> 00:27:40.126
 formal,

762
00:27:40.407 --> 00:27:40.954
 verbose way.

763
00:27:41.032 --> 00:27:42.930
 But all the evidence suggests that's a mistake.

764
00:27:42.954 --> 00:27:45.579
 They're actually making themselves come across as worse.

765
00:27:45.719 --> 00:27:46.235
And it just,

766
00:27:46.313 --> 00:27:47.157
 it rings true.

767
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:56.282
 like a lot of this stuff I've found there's been very few from across all your books and then most recently the Hack of the Human Mind where I don't where I have a

768
00:27:56.742 --> 00:27:57.403
 If I'm honest,

769
00:27:57.563 --> 00:27:58.184
 I'm like,

770
00:27:58.203 --> 00:27:58.324
 oh,

771
00:27:58.383 --> 00:27:58.604
 yeah,

772
00:27:58.725 --> 00:27:59.465
 that feels right.

773
00:27:59.485 --> 00:28:00.186
 That sounds right.

774
00:28:00.205 --> 00:28:02.287
 It's very rare that there's one of these that I go,

775
00:28:02.709 --> 00:28:02.909
 oh,

776
00:28:02.987 --> 00:28:03.530
 I don't know.

777
00:28:03.709 --> 00:28:03.869
 Like,

778
00:28:03.889 --> 00:28:07.494
 you're trying to make me check my brain at the door and believe something that isn't true,

779
00:28:07.612 --> 00:28:08.494
 which a lot of times,

780
00:28:08.534 --> 00:28:12.159
 sometimes I feel like that is stuff that I hear bandied about.

781
00:28:12.338 --> 00:28:14.432
 It's sort of like this may seem counterintuitive.

782
00:28:14.557 --> 00:28:14.885
 I mean,

783
00:28:14.932 --> 00:28:19.229
 the classic is from Mad Men where the guy is pitching the death instinct.

784
00:28:19.448 --> 00:28:19.682
 You know,

785
00:28:19.683 --> 00:28:20.713
 that's the whole setup.

786
00:28:21.018 --> 00:28:22.660
 In the very first episode of Mad Men,

787
00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:23.141
 there's this

788
00:28:23.501 --> 00:28:25.942
 20-year-old guy that's into psychology.

789
00:28:25.943 --> 00:28:26.184
 He's like,

790
00:28:26.185 --> 00:28:28.407
 the reason people smoke is because they're suicidal.

791
00:28:28.504 --> 00:28:29.243
 They want to die.

792
00:28:29.290 --> 00:28:30.086
 They're the death instinct.

793
00:28:30.126 --> 00:28:31.368
 And Don Draper gets up.

794
00:28:31.485 --> 00:28:31.711
 He's like,

795
00:28:31.712 --> 00:28:31.852
 dude,

796
00:28:31.853 --> 00:28:33.086
 they smoke because they want to be happy.

797
00:28:33.352 --> 00:28:33.688
 You know?

798
00:28:33.930 --> 00:28:35.376
 And your stuff,

799
00:28:35.493 --> 00:28:36.172
 which I like,

800
00:28:36.173 --> 00:28:38.782
 is it's an embrace of human nature.

801
00:28:39.032 --> 00:28:39.391
 You know?

802
00:28:39.954 --> 00:28:40.110
Also,

803
00:28:40.157 --> 00:28:41.938
 that Mad Men story is an interesting one.

804
00:28:42.219 --> 00:28:44.547
 Because that kind of death instinct,

805
00:28:44.625 --> 00:28:47.188
 or maybe some kind of Freudian explanation for smoking.

806
00:28:47.329 --> 00:28:49.844
 It was often intellectuals just...

807
00:28:50.062 --> 00:28:52.384
 putting together a plausible story.

808
00:28:52.665 --> 00:28:54.247
 There was nice logic behind it,

809
00:28:54.345 --> 00:28:55.927
 but very little proof.

810
00:28:56.169 --> 00:28:58.189
 With all these behavioral science experiments,

811
00:28:58.634 --> 00:29:00.329
 they're never based on logic alone.

812
00:29:00.431 --> 00:29:03.235
 And people have to put them to a test.

813
00:29:03.478 --> 00:29:06.118
 And that's what's the judge of whether they work or not.

814
00:29:06.399 --> 00:29:07.118
 So I think,

815
00:29:07.181 --> 00:29:07.353
 yeah,

816
00:29:07.354 --> 00:29:10.899
 I think there's a difference between some of that kind of cod psychology of the

817
00:29:12.103 --> 00:29:15.712
 1950s and then the more experimentally tested work of today.

818
00:29:16.130 --> 00:29:16.330
Yes,

819
00:29:16.350 --> 00:29:19.211
 you just said very well what I was using too many words to say.

820
00:29:19.431 --> 00:29:21.053
And there are simply too many notes.

821
00:29:21.054 --> 00:29:24.990
Behavioral science gives you the proof that you need to go.

822
00:29:25.154 --> 00:29:26.592
 This isn't just opinion.

823
00:29:26.615 --> 00:29:27.553
 So with that said,

824
00:29:27.771 --> 00:29:28.810
 talking about the real thing,

825
00:29:28.912 --> 00:29:29.756
 I love the real thing.

826
00:29:29.810 --> 00:29:34.928
 That is like the backbone of ad infinitum is talking about real phenomenon that happened in the real world.

827
00:29:35.256 --> 00:29:37.678
 Let's listen to some ads from some top spinners.

828
00:29:37.709 --> 00:29:40.834
 I know I'm asking you to listen to stuff in the United States of America.

829
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:43.599
 But if I had a dollar for...

830
00:29:43.818 --> 00:29:52.566
 every time somebody talked about the Effie Awards and the IPA and all the studies from England that we base our strategies on over here.

831
00:29:52.785 --> 00:29:53.410
 I think it's okay.

832
00:29:53.425 --> 00:29:54.746
 I think we can understand each other.

833
00:29:54.949 --> 00:29:55.090
 Hey,

834
00:29:55.129 --> 00:29:55.754
 I got to tell you,

835
00:29:55.793 --> 00:29:58.816
 I did an episode with two expats that live over here now,

836
00:29:58.832 --> 00:29:59.675
 but they were from

837
00:30:00.082 --> 00:30:01.754
 England. And we struck out,

838
00:30:01.755 --> 00:30:02.675
 what was the name of the episode?

839
00:30:02.691 --> 00:30:03.675
 Put a little English on it.

840
00:30:03.879 --> 00:30:04.394
 And we,

841
00:30:05.238 --> 00:30:06.035
 in that episode,

842
00:30:06.097 --> 00:30:12.269
 struck upon this idea that it's very interesting when you look at the history of broadcasting and advertising in England,

843
00:30:12.425 --> 00:30:13.144
 the United Kingdom.

844
00:30:13.374 --> 00:30:14.755
 that it was more tightly controlled.

845
00:30:14.975 --> 00:30:16.217
 There was less inventory.

846
00:30:16.516 --> 00:30:18.219
 It was more narrowly focused.

847
00:30:18.220 --> 00:30:21.946
 Like you had the channel that switched between the week and the weekdays.

848
00:30:22.321 --> 00:30:24.727
 Radio advertising was not nearly what it was.

849
00:30:24.907 --> 00:30:31.086
 So it's like the idea that planning came out of the UK made so much more sense to me because I feel like in the UK,

850
00:30:31.852 --> 00:30:35.290
 let's say circa 1930 to 2000,

851
00:30:35.602 --> 00:30:36.915
 maybe a little earlier than 2000,

852
00:30:37.055 --> 00:30:40.586
 you had to be a lot more thoughtful about how your ad was going to work.

853
00:30:40.774 --> 00:30:41.755
 where the United States,

854
00:30:41.756 --> 00:30:43.476
 you could just freaking blast it,

855
00:30:43.517 --> 00:30:43.796
 man.

856
00:30:44.698 --> 00:30:45.398
 Broad media,

857
00:30:45.499 --> 00:30:46.280
 millions of people,

858
00:30:46.538 --> 00:30:47.441
 all the money in the world,

859
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:48.480
 post-World War II,

860
00:30:48.784 --> 00:30:49.745
 we're on top of the world.

861
00:30:49.800 --> 00:30:50.222
 Nobody's,

862
00:30:50.441 --> 00:30:50.683
 you know,

863
00:30:50.847 --> 00:30:52.323
 only superpower with nukes.

864
00:30:52.362 --> 00:30:56.066
 Like so many wins were in the sales of average.

865
00:30:56.067 --> 00:30:56.730
 So these guys,

866
00:30:56.776 --> 00:30:59.839
 the madmen in the United States of America that are given all this credit,

867
00:30:59.995 --> 00:31:00.511
 I'm kind of like,

868
00:31:00.558 --> 00:31:01.667
 could they have screwed it up?

869
00:31:01.730 --> 00:31:03.339
 I don't even know if you could have screwed it up.

870
00:31:04.214 --> 00:31:05.401
 Advertising to Americans.

871
00:31:05.683 --> 00:31:06.839
 While in the United Kingdom,

872
00:31:06.917 --> 00:31:09.183
 you have to be planful because...

873
00:31:09.475 --> 00:31:11.048
 You've got a limited opportunity.

874
00:31:11.615 --> 00:31:12.256
 What do you think of that?

875
00:31:12.436 --> 00:31:16.900
I certainly think one of the differences was the dominance of the BBC,

876
00:31:17.162 --> 00:31:17.779
 especially in the

877
00:31:18.201 --> 00:31:19.021
 50s and 60s.

878
00:31:19.123 --> 00:31:19.244
 Now,

879
00:31:19.263 --> 00:31:20.967
 you've got one commercial channel,

880
00:31:21.146 --> 00:31:21.365
 ITV.

881
00:31:21.748 --> 00:31:22.162
Exactly.

882
00:31:22.209 --> 00:31:26.592
And they always have this worry that if they play too many ads,

883
00:31:26.748 --> 00:31:27.928
 the ads aren't very good,

884
00:31:28.146 --> 00:31:28.318
 well,

885
00:31:28.349 --> 00:31:30.334
 then people can just turn off ITV and watch

886
00:31:30.709 --> 00:31:32.990
 BBC where there's no advertising at all.

887
00:31:33.053 --> 00:31:37.724
 So I think there was always this need for the commercial channels to keep on raising their game.

888
00:31:38.006 --> 00:31:38.943
 People aren't familiar with the BBC,

889
00:31:39.224 --> 00:31:40.928
 and this sounds like the most socialist thing ever,

890
00:31:40.959 --> 00:31:41.224
 will be.

891
00:31:41.555 --> 00:31:53.326
 americans like choking the cornflakes we are taxed you have no choice about it 200 pounds a year whatever it is just goes to the bbc and therefore they survive without advertising i think in the 50s and

892
00:31:53.669 --> 00:32:08.154
60s that was a huge amount of money it is some very good content that the commercial channels had to keep on raising their games keep up with well the big thought there and you're confirming it was i was like oh because i was like why did planning come out of the uk and i know there's like

893
00:32:08.395 --> 00:32:25.474
 martial history to it that you know the martial tradition in the united kingdom is redundancy it's actually a strategic imperative to have like if you need one 15 pound cannon to have two 15 pound cannons and the american imperative has always been we have a plan of attack attack so

894
00:32:25.677 --> 00:32:37.302
 it's like a different approach right and i was like okay i'm saying all this to say les bonnet all that work your work frankly you know cross applying it across a pond i I...

895
00:32:37.959 --> 00:32:39.079
 Sometimes I resist it.

896
00:32:39.179 --> 00:32:40.339
 And then at other times I'm like,

897
00:32:40.340 --> 00:32:40.679
 you know,

898
00:32:41.140 --> 00:32:42.599
 human nature is human nature.

899
00:32:42.958 --> 00:32:44.900
 But do consumers in,

900
00:32:45.322 --> 00:32:46.462
 like I have friends in Lagos,

901
00:32:46.525 --> 00:32:47.001
 Nigeria,

902
00:32:47.142 --> 00:32:48.322
 do consumers in Lagos,

903
00:32:48.384 --> 00:32:53.064
 Nigeria behave different than you in London town and me in Los Angeles?

904
00:32:53.603 --> 00:32:55.759
So of course there are variances,

905
00:32:56.103 --> 00:32:56.540
 but

906
00:32:57.009 --> 00:32:58.478
 I think there is more than,

907
00:32:59.228 --> 00:33:00.822
 more that unites us and divides us.

908
00:33:01.165 --> 00:33:03.228
 Like a lot of the behavioral science principles,

909
00:33:03.259 --> 00:33:05.509
 take probably one of the most well-known social principles.

910
00:33:05.719 --> 00:33:08.561
 the idea that we are a herd species as humans,

911
00:33:08.581 --> 00:33:10.444
 that we are deeply influenced by what others do.

912
00:33:10.643 --> 00:33:13.206
 So if you as a marketer make your product look popular,

913
00:33:13.405 --> 00:33:16.612
 it will become more appealing and more people are likely to buy it.

914
00:33:16.807 --> 00:33:16.932
 Now,

915
00:33:16.933 --> 00:33:19.495
 the argument for that is an evolutionary one.

916
00:33:20.011 --> 00:33:21.753
 For hundreds of thousands of years,

917
00:33:21.815 --> 00:33:23.284
 when we were living on the African savannah,

918
00:33:23.581 --> 00:33:28.034
 it was absolutely imperative to our survival that we kept friends,

919
00:33:28.065 --> 00:33:30.409
 that we were within the grace and favour of our tribe.

920
00:33:30.565 --> 00:33:33.190
 If we fell out with the tribe and we were expelled,

921
00:33:33.550 --> 00:33:34.565
 that was a death sentence.

922
00:33:34.795 --> 00:33:36.675
 So I think we have evolved to be very,

923
00:33:36.795 --> 00:33:39.695
 very deeply attuned to what others think and feel.

924
00:33:39.914 --> 00:33:40.035
 Now,

925
00:33:40.036 --> 00:33:43.418
 if you buy that evolutionary explanation for social proof,

926
00:33:43.676 --> 00:33:43.856
 well,

927
00:33:43.918 --> 00:33:49.199
 then the argument would be this kind of froth of technology change in culture is,

928
00:33:49.481 --> 00:33:49.715
 you know,

929
00:33:49.738 --> 00:33:51.684
 that's just a recent blink of the eye.

930
00:33:51.856 --> 00:33:51.981
 Now,

931
00:33:52.137 --> 00:33:54.934
 all of us have got those common ancestors.

932
00:33:55.074 --> 00:33:57.277
 All of us have had that same evolutionary experience,

933
00:33:57.278 --> 00:34:00.121
 and therefore you'd expect this bias to be reasonably similar.

934
00:34:00.340 --> 00:34:04.277
 And I think that's what you see when you compare experiments across countries.

935
00:34:04.443 --> 00:34:07.166
 It's not that it has exactly the same effect,

936
00:34:07.586 --> 00:34:11.531
 but we're talking about kind of minimal variation of social proof across the world.

937
00:34:11.629 --> 00:34:16.235
 It may be a collectivist culture is more affected than an individualistic one,

938
00:34:16.531 --> 00:34:17.953
 but all groups are affected.

939
00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:19.414
I tend to agree.

940
00:34:19.461 --> 00:34:20.445
 And I think it's like,

941
00:34:20.446 --> 00:34:20.774
 you know,

942
00:34:21.133 --> 00:34:24.445
 you see two pools of water and at one pool of water,

943
00:34:24.680 --> 00:34:25.945
 there's some dead bodies.

944
00:34:26.323 --> 00:34:27.524
 And at the other pool of water,

945
00:34:27.624 --> 00:34:30.446
 there's 50 humans cupping water into their mouth.

946
00:34:30.629 --> 00:34:32.289
 Which one are you going to drink water from?

947
00:34:33.371 --> 00:34:34.473
Or a restaurant that has,

948
00:34:34.512 --> 00:34:34.754
 you know,

949
00:34:34.755 --> 00:34:38.114
 you go away or abroad or you visit a state you've never been to before.

950
00:34:38.192 --> 00:34:41.442
 And one restaurant has 100 people queuing up and one doesn't.

951
00:34:41.481 --> 00:34:43.520
 If you were ever asked what's going to have the best food,

952
00:34:43.661 --> 00:34:44.723
 you'd say the one with the queue.

953
00:34:44.786 --> 00:34:46.317
You're going to go with the one with the more people.

954
00:34:46.598 --> 00:34:49.598
It is a sensible rule of thumb.

955
00:34:49.848 --> 00:34:50.832
 What's interesting,

956
00:34:50.848 --> 00:34:51.114
 though,

957
00:34:51.426 --> 00:34:55.004
 is we apply it even when it's perhaps not justified.

958
00:34:55.047 --> 00:34:59.312
 So if you were to give someone exactly the same product and sometimes say,

959
00:34:59.331 --> 00:34:59.773
 you know,

960
00:34:59.870 --> 00:35:00.331
 this has got

961
00:35:00.734 --> 00:35:02.316
 100 million users and this one,

962
00:35:02.655 --> 00:35:04.038
 don't mention any reference to scale,

963
00:35:04.179 --> 00:35:06.335
 people would tell you the one with 100 million users was,

964
00:35:06.421 --> 00:35:07.320
 they'd rate it better,

965
00:35:07.437 --> 00:35:08.741
 even though they were exactly the same thing.

966
00:35:08.843 --> 00:35:13.491
 So it's often these rules are generally applicable and generally useful.

967
00:35:13.538 --> 00:35:14.460
 The thing is,

968
00:35:14.507 --> 00:35:17.835
 we apply them even in situations where perhaps it's inappropriate.

969
00:35:17.836 --> 00:35:19.398
 And I think that's the opportunity for the marketer.

970
00:35:19.659 --> 00:35:20.320
No question.

971
00:35:20.340 --> 00:35:21.921
 And I think when all else fails,

972
00:35:21.981 --> 00:35:25.563
 it's like be as honest and forthright and real as you can,

973
00:35:25.626 --> 00:35:27.227
 because there's nothing like what's like,

974
00:35:27.228 --> 00:35:27.345
 well,

975
00:35:27.368 --> 00:35:29.009
 just slap that we have a million reviews on it.

976
00:35:29.032 --> 00:35:29.188
 Like,

977
00:35:29.212 --> 00:35:29.532
 whatever,

978
00:35:29.548 --> 00:35:29.790
 you know,

979
00:35:29.806 --> 00:35:31.048
 you get into that territory.

980
00:35:31.227 --> 00:35:32.892
 And I think there's behavioral science.

981
00:35:33.032 --> 00:35:34.610
 So I haven't seen much about this in your work,

982
00:35:34.673 --> 00:35:36.954
 but you could probably do one on the seven deadly sins.

983
00:35:36.970 --> 00:35:37.235
 Like,

984
00:35:37.376 --> 00:35:38.392
 if you're dishonest,

985
00:35:38.438 --> 00:35:39.642
 it blows up in your face.

986
00:35:40.767 --> 00:35:48.485
so sorry I take that one as a given you can't make up a fact you'll get away with it for a little while but sooner or later you get caught and you know

987
00:35:48.715 --> 00:35:49.596
 That's going to take a long,

988
00:35:49.636 --> 00:35:51.278
 long time to get that trust back.

989
00:35:51.298 --> 00:35:53.100
 So it has to be truthful.

990
00:35:53.339 --> 00:35:53.538
 Real.

991
00:35:53.659 --> 00:35:54.300
 That's a gift.

992
00:35:54.581 --> 00:36:00.210
 But there will often be a situation where a brand has these social proof stories,

993
00:36:00.405 --> 00:36:01.991
 but it never conveys them.

994
00:36:02.085 --> 00:36:03.413
 That's where the opportunity lies.

995
00:36:03.710 --> 00:36:03.968
You know,

996
00:36:04.007 --> 00:36:04.827
 it's amazing to me.

997
00:36:05.014 --> 00:36:05.936
 So I live in Santa Clarita,

998
00:36:05.952 --> 00:36:06.530
 California,

999
00:36:06.718 --> 00:36:07.889
 and the largest,

1000
00:36:08.327 --> 00:36:08.514
 well,

1001
00:36:08.671 --> 00:36:10.889
 the largest grocer in California is Walmart.

1002
00:36:10.890 --> 00:36:11.577
 The reason I know.

1003
00:36:11.695 --> 00:36:12.596
 This is when you,

1004
00:36:12.656 --> 00:36:13.396
 this blows me away,

1005
00:36:13.457 --> 00:36:13.636
 man.

1006
00:36:13.877 --> 00:36:15.638
 You walk into Walmart,

1007
00:36:15.818 --> 00:36:16.041
 okay?

1008
00:36:16.042 --> 00:36:17.521
 So you've already made the decision.

1009
00:36:17.662 --> 00:36:25.732
 I am inside Walmart and they have a massive banner over the produce section that says number one grocer in California.

1010
00:36:25.787 --> 00:36:31.396
 And I talk about this one a lot for our advertisers because one of the biggest gaps I see in audio,

1011
00:36:31.709 --> 00:36:35.474
 people will go long in the tooth on entertainment and then we need to get into grading some real ads here.

1012
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:39.756
 So people will go long in the tooth on trying to be emotionally engaging and tell a story.

1013
00:36:39.787 --> 00:36:40.928
 And I get the reasons for that.

1014
00:36:40.995 --> 00:36:42.496
 or to create an image in their mind.

1015
00:36:42.836 --> 00:36:45.819
 Often where they go soft is on social proof.

1016
00:36:46.061 --> 00:36:48.022
 We call it substantiation and audiolytics.

1017
00:36:48.100 --> 00:36:48.584
 But to me,

1018
00:36:49.123 --> 00:36:50.623
 the fact that Walmart,

1019
00:36:50.647 --> 00:36:53.366
 who you know has the money and has the people and isn't,

1020
00:36:53.608 --> 00:36:55.866
 I believe Walmart is doing things for a reason.

1021
00:36:56.147 --> 00:36:57.678
 When you walk into their house,

1022
00:36:58.006 --> 00:36:59.334
 they're still going to go,

1023
00:36:59.647 --> 00:37:01.491
 we're the number one grocer.

1024
00:37:01.834 --> 00:37:02.709
 And you're already there.

1025
00:37:03.209 --> 00:37:03.350
Yeah.

1026
00:37:03.584 --> 00:37:05.366
 So I think that is a lovely,

1027
00:37:05.444 --> 00:37:05.741
 clear,

1028
00:37:06.038 --> 00:37:07.334
 explicit use of social proof.

1029
00:37:07.475 --> 00:37:09.459
 But if a creative's listening to this and thinking,

1030
00:37:09.575 --> 00:37:25.027
 oh gosh there's you know there's no role for me where's my opportunity for creativity well you can still use the same principle but with a bit more flair so the lovely old example i think it might be 1988 and it was back from the days when ford escort was the world's best-selling car now

1031
00:37:25.066 --> 00:37:38.504
 what most brands would have done is just buy big posters and said world's best-selling car but what ford did was buy those same giant posters but in tiny tiny font on the poster they wrote out every single make a model of competitor car.

1032
00:37:38.711 --> 00:37:39.551
 And then over the top,

1033
00:37:39.591 --> 00:37:40.031
 they said,

1034
00:37:40.111 --> 00:37:41.131
 if your car's on the list,

1035
00:37:41.592 --> 00:37:42.714
 Ford Escort outsells it.

1036
00:37:43.073 --> 00:37:47.956
 That is exactly the same principle as Walmart saying number one grocer in California.

1037
00:37:48.112 --> 00:37:50.737
 But by adding a dash of flair and wit,

1038
00:37:51.151 --> 00:37:54.096
 I think Ford get even more out of that principle.

1039
00:37:54.237 --> 00:37:57.370
 And what's true for social proof is true for every bias we've talked about.

1040
00:37:57.557 --> 00:38:00.073
 The experiments give you an insight into human nature.

1041
00:38:00.276 --> 00:38:03.510
 But when you add your creativity as an advertiser into the mix,

1042
00:38:03.698 --> 00:38:05.010
 that's when you get the biggest impact.

1043
00:38:05.355 --> 00:38:06.416
That is fantastic.

1044
00:38:06.436 --> 00:38:06.576
 Yeah,

1045
00:38:06.596 --> 00:38:08.517
 I had a thought in here of,

1046
00:38:08.779 --> 00:38:09.019
 you know,

1047
00:38:09.099 --> 00:38:11.642
 using these human hacks so you won't be a human hack.

1048
00:38:11.643 --> 00:38:11.861
I like that.

1049
00:38:11.862 --> 00:38:12.263
 I like that.

1050
00:38:12.423 --> 00:38:13.463
And I think you just,

1051
00:38:13.884 --> 00:38:14.923
 you just spoke to it.

1052
00:38:15.244 --> 00:38:15.486
 Like,

1053
00:38:15.502 --> 00:38:16.142
 that's the thing.

1054
00:38:16.166 --> 00:38:16.509
 It's like,

1055
00:38:16.525 --> 00:38:16.744
 yeah,

1056
00:38:16.767 --> 00:38:16.963
 look,

1057
00:38:17.127 --> 00:38:17.588
 you can't,

1058
00:38:17.627 --> 00:38:18.228
 just the facts,

1059
00:38:18.291 --> 00:38:18.548
 ma'am.

1060
00:38:19.009 --> 00:38:19.189
 Like,

1061
00:38:19.190 --> 00:38:19.666
 you could.

1062
00:38:19.791 --> 00:38:20.111
 And you know,

1063
00:38:20.112 --> 00:38:20.869
 the truth is,

1064
00:38:21.213 --> 00:38:22.666
 that still chucks the box.

1065
00:38:22.806 --> 00:38:23.931
 It's letter of the law.

1066
00:38:24.197 --> 00:38:25.369
 But spirit of the law is like,

1067
00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:25.509
 man,

1068
00:38:25.556 --> 00:38:26.181
 we're alive.

1069
00:38:26.197 --> 00:38:27.197
 Have some fun with it.

1070
00:38:27.556 --> 00:38:28.291
 And to your point,

1071
00:38:28.384 --> 00:38:29.994
 I think the Ford Escort example,

1072
00:38:30.056 --> 00:38:31.478
 that's more distinct.

1073
00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:31.838
Yes.

1074
00:38:31.994 --> 00:38:32.228
 Yeah.

1075
00:38:32.494 --> 00:38:33.869
That's more interesting.

1076
00:38:34.150 --> 00:38:34.603
 And that.

1077
00:38:34.767 --> 00:38:35.628
 I know there's behavior,

1078
00:38:35.629 --> 00:38:35.808
 you know,

1079
00:38:35.809 --> 00:38:37.490
 I can't quote them all like you can.

1080
00:38:37.531 --> 00:38:37.830
 I mean,

1081
00:38:37.851 --> 00:38:38.070
 I don't,

1082
00:38:38.210 --> 00:38:39.113
 nobody can quote them like you can,

1083
00:38:39.191 --> 00:38:41.976
 but being distinct has a power just in and of itself.

1084
00:38:42.414 --> 00:38:42.898
Absolutely.

1085
00:38:42.914 --> 00:38:43.515
 You know,

1086
00:38:43.516 --> 00:38:48.359
 one of the oldest studies in behavioral science is a 1933 study from Hedwig von Restorff,

1087
00:38:48.382 --> 00:38:49.445
 this German psychologist.

1088
00:38:49.703 --> 00:38:51.359
 And the effect is named after it.

1089
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:52.406
 It's called the von Restorff effect.

1090
00:38:52.421 --> 00:38:56.515
 And it's essentially this argument that we are hardwired to notice what's distinct.

1091
00:38:56.687 --> 00:39:02.562
 One of the best things you can do if you want to be noticed is identify your category conventions and then smash the box.

1092
00:39:04.319 --> 00:39:06.221
 And I think Ford did that beautifully.

1093
00:39:06.842 --> 00:39:08.602
 Everyone else would have just said world's biggest.

1094
00:39:09.063 --> 00:39:10.383
 They gave it that little twist.

1095
00:39:10.524 --> 00:39:11.164
 And as you say,

1096
00:39:11.305 --> 00:39:13.446
 it's distinctive and therefore lodges in the mind.

1097
00:39:13.907 --> 00:39:14.071
Yeah,

1098
00:39:14.172 --> 00:39:14.852
 you remember it.

1099
00:39:14.930 --> 00:39:15.047
 And,

1100
00:39:15.172 --> 00:39:15.469
 you know,

1101
00:39:16.008 --> 00:39:16.414
 yeah.

1102
00:39:16.415 --> 00:39:16.532
 OK,

1103
00:39:16.735 --> 00:39:17.633
 let's get into the real deal.

1104
00:39:17.649 --> 00:39:17.992
 Here we go.

1105
00:39:18.375 --> 00:39:18.633
 Enough,

1106
00:39:18.735 --> 00:39:18.992
 enough,

1107
00:39:19.071 --> 00:39:20.375
 enough is enough.

1108
00:39:20.610 --> 00:39:20.735
 Well,

1109
00:39:20.750 --> 00:39:22.500
 what's kind of nice is this isn't theory.

1110
00:39:22.578 --> 00:39:23.360
 This is practice.

1111
00:39:23.361 --> 00:39:25.172
 And I like that you're making that distinction.

1112
00:39:25.344 --> 00:39:29.860
 And it's worthy of pointing out yet again that with behavioral science,

1113
00:39:29.891 --> 00:39:30.641
 we have the,

1114
00:39:31.313 --> 00:39:31.547
 you know,

1115
00:39:31.563 --> 00:39:32.891
 it isn't just theory.

1116
00:39:32.985 --> 00:39:33.907
 These are real studies.

1117
00:39:34.123 --> 00:39:35.165
 So let's get into the real thing.

1118
00:39:35.184 --> 00:39:37.407
 Let's take a look at the brands making moves in podcasting.

1119
00:39:37.426 --> 00:39:39.407
 These are recent top movers and shakers.

1120
00:39:39.790 --> 00:39:40.891
 According to Magellan AI,

1121
00:39:40.892 --> 00:39:45.251
 you can get a free demo at Magellan.ai slash ad infinitum.

1122
00:39:45.274 --> 00:39:46.196
 We're going to jump right in,

1123
00:39:46.211 --> 00:39:46.516
 Richard.

1124
00:39:47.313 --> 00:39:48.876
 The first one's from Procter & Gamble,

1125
00:39:49.141 --> 00:39:53.797
 Tide's pods on laugh lines with Kim and Pin Holderness.

1126
00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:54.485
 Here we go.

1127
00:39:55.282 --> 00:39:59.485
Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water?

1128
00:40:00.172 --> 00:40:03.266
 Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it.

1129
00:40:03.739 --> 00:40:04.540
 Even in cold.

1130
00:40:05.181 --> 00:40:05.461
 Butter?

1131
00:40:06.001 --> 00:40:06.263
 Yep.

1132
00:40:06.782 --> 00:40:07.544
 Chocolate ice cream?

1133
00:40:07.985 --> 00:40:08.485
 Sure thing.

1134
00:40:09.005 --> 00:40:09.806
 Barbecue sauce?

1135
00:40:10.267 --> 00:40:11.345
 Tide's got you covered.

1136
00:40:11.845 --> 00:40:13.509
 You don't need to use warm water.

1137
00:40:14.126 --> 00:40:14.727
 Additionally,

1138
00:40:15.149 --> 00:40:19.298
 Tide Pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new cold-zyme technology.

1139
00:40:19.876 --> 00:40:20.595
 Just remember.

1140
00:40:21.040 --> 00:40:22.101
 If it's got to be clean,

1141
00:40:22.341 --> 00:40:23.362
 it's got to be Tide.

1142
00:40:23.983 --> 00:40:24.303
All right,

1143
00:40:24.304 --> 00:40:24.604
 Richard,

1144
00:40:24.624 --> 00:40:24.944
 there we go.

1145
00:40:24.985 --> 00:40:26.567
 That's the first one for Tide Pods.

1146
00:40:26.568 --> 00:40:27.125
 What do you think?

1147
00:40:27.286 --> 00:40:28.387
I'm a bit underwhelmed,

1148
00:40:28.446 --> 00:40:28.809
 frankly.

1149
00:40:29.051 --> 00:40:32.309
 I don't think I'm going to remember that by the time we finish the podcast.

1150
00:40:32.590 --> 00:40:32.872
Yeah.

1151
00:40:33.333 --> 00:40:33.473
Yeah,

1152
00:40:33.653 --> 00:40:34.036
 there's not.

1153
00:40:34.512 --> 00:40:37.333
 It feels just interchangeable with a hundred other ads.

1154
00:40:37.379 --> 00:40:42.895
 I do wonder if the biggest problem with advertising is this belief.

1155
00:40:43.254 --> 00:40:44.739
 If we say something,

1156
00:40:45.051 --> 00:40:49.067
 then that message is internalized by the audience.

1157
00:40:49.364 --> 00:40:49.520
 but

1158
00:40:49.596 --> 00:40:52.119
 But just because you've said it doesn't mean people believe it.

1159
00:40:52.219 --> 00:40:55.182
 And I feel like the premise of that ad was based on the fact,

1160
00:40:55.183 --> 00:40:55.284
 well,

1161
00:40:55.285 --> 00:40:57.666
 if we just tell people we're brilliant in cold water,

1162
00:40:57.721 --> 00:40:58.666
 then everyone's going to believe us.

1163
00:40:58.768 --> 00:40:58.909
 Well,

1164
00:40:59.448 --> 00:40:59.823
 why?

1165
00:41:00.526 --> 00:41:01.409
 Why would I believe you?

1166
00:41:01.768 --> 00:41:05.268
 Every advertiser has a vested interest to spin the truth.

1167
00:41:05.369 --> 00:41:08.377
 So there's this skepticism towards any commercial message.

1168
00:41:08.471 --> 00:41:12.424
 And I don't feel the ad did much to overcome that.

1169
00:41:12.799 --> 00:41:15.346
 It sounds like they're spending a lot of money on advertising,

1170
00:41:15.347 --> 00:41:18.721
 so they might get an uplift in sales by sheer weight of numbers.

1171
00:41:18.968 --> 00:41:20.871
 I think we'd give that a five out of 10.

1172
00:41:21.611 --> 00:41:21.932
Okay.

1173
00:41:22.152 --> 00:41:22.611
 Five out of 10.

1174
00:41:22.633 --> 00:41:25.094
 And you bring up a good point on the spend.

1175
00:41:25.133 --> 00:41:25.394
 You know,

1176
00:41:25.496 --> 00:41:26.137
 there is,

1177
00:41:26.574 --> 00:41:27.914
 I made this point on the,

1178
00:41:27.915 --> 00:41:28.039
 yeah,

1179
00:41:28.040 --> 00:41:29.875
 on the last episode and I'll say it again.

1180
00:41:29.922 --> 00:41:30.258
 It's like,

1181
00:41:30.422 --> 00:41:36.469
 I think that there are wins in your favor for human persuasion in that the audio puts the mind,

1182
00:41:36.750 --> 00:41:41.266
 I'm becoming increasingly convinced that audio puts a mind into this sort of passive receptive state,

1183
00:41:41.453 --> 00:41:46.734
 almost like you could say you could brainwash easier when someone's listening to an audio show that they want.

1184
00:41:47.062 --> 00:41:47.453
 And so...

1185
00:41:48.040 --> 00:41:51.640
 you actually can get away with being a hack,

1186
00:41:52.060 --> 00:41:52.802
 so to speak.

1187
00:41:53.002 --> 00:41:54.021
 But to your point,

1188
00:41:54.060 --> 00:41:55.662
 I feel like raise the bar,

1189
00:41:55.740 --> 00:41:55.861
 bro.

1190
00:41:56.322 --> 00:41:57.705
 If you raise the bar,

1191
00:41:57.963 --> 00:42:01.025
 let's say this Tide ad is performing a goal.

1192
00:42:01.080 --> 00:42:01.525
 You know what?

1193
00:42:01.580 --> 00:42:03.400
 Let's say it's 1.3%

1194
00:42:03.486 --> 00:42:03.767
 to goal.

1195
00:42:03.768 --> 00:42:05.384
 They're getting 30 cents on every dollar.

1196
00:42:05.447 --> 00:42:06.525
 Maybe they're even getting a dot.

1197
00:42:06.556 --> 00:42:07.838
 Maybe it's 2X to goal.

1198
00:42:08.041 --> 00:42:11.478
 Can you imagine if they actually showed up and made a distinct awesome ad?

1199
00:42:11.806 --> 00:42:13.291
 It might be 3 or 4X to goal.

1200
00:42:13.447 --> 00:42:13.603
Yeah.

1201
00:42:13.666 --> 00:42:15.072
 And you're absolutely right.

1202
00:42:15.306 --> 00:42:17.213
 There is a real power in

1203
00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:18.741
 podcast and audio.

1204
00:42:19.121 --> 00:42:21.583
 So there is a psychologist,

1205
00:42:21.845 --> 00:42:22.704
 probably peak of their career,

1206
00:42:22.923 --> 00:42:23.646
 50s and 60s,

1207
00:42:23.665 --> 00:42:24.325
 Leon Festinger,

1208
00:42:24.486 --> 00:42:27.533
 and he came up with this idea of confirmation bias.

1209
00:42:27.728 --> 00:42:28.329
 So essentially,

1210
00:42:28.330 --> 00:42:33.392
 it's the argument that we don't interpret messages from a communicator neutrally.

1211
00:42:33.556 --> 00:42:38.079
 We interpret what they say through a lens of our feelings for that communicator.

1212
00:42:38.298 --> 00:42:41.236
 So if Donald Trump says something and it's attributed to Donald Trump,

1213
00:42:41.470 --> 00:42:43.970
 a Democrat will scoff and a Republican and will agree.

1214
00:42:44.173 --> 00:42:46.033
 The same statement is then...

1215
00:42:46.392 --> 00:42:47.452
 supposedly coming from

1216
00:42:47.792 --> 00:42:48.373
 Joe Biden,

1217
00:42:48.672 --> 00:42:49.652
 and you'll get a reverse.

1218
00:42:49.693 --> 00:42:51.295
 The Republican will disagree with it,

1219
00:42:51.432 --> 00:42:52.412
 the Democrat will like it.

1220
00:42:52.455 --> 00:42:52.572
 Now,

1221
00:42:52.573 --> 00:42:55.096
 we are awfully influenced by who a message comes from.

1222
00:42:55.315 --> 00:42:57.971
 Everything's interpreted through a lens of our feelings to the communicator.

1223
00:42:58.072 --> 00:42:59.494
 That was Festinger's original work.

1224
00:42:59.736 --> 00:43:01.752
 But he does this amazing experiment.

1225
00:43:01.854 --> 00:43:04.190
 He recruits members of a college fraternity.

1226
00:43:04.377 --> 00:43:04.502
 So,

1227
00:43:04.518 --> 00:43:04.736
 you know,

1228
00:43:04.752 --> 00:43:08.315
 these slightly contentious organizations where some people are pro them,

1229
00:43:08.377 --> 00:43:09.174
 some people against.

1230
00:43:09.455 --> 00:43:12.065
 But everyone in the experiment is a member of a college fraternity.

1231
00:43:12.066 --> 00:43:12.174
 it.

1232
00:43:12.252 --> 00:43:12.799
 That's crucial.

1233
00:43:13.111 --> 00:43:15.565
 Festinger then plays them an audio argument.

1234
00:43:15.780 --> 00:43:18.941
 about why the college fraternities are morally wrong.

1235
00:43:19.221 --> 00:43:23.082
 And then he asks people at the end what their view is on college fraternities.

1236
00:43:23.203 --> 00:43:23.543
 Essentially,

1237
00:43:23.544 --> 00:43:24.683
 they have changed their opinion.

1238
00:43:24.785 --> 00:43:25.840
 He then gets another group of people,

1239
00:43:26.144 --> 00:43:27.285
 all members of college fraternities.

1240
00:43:27.426 --> 00:43:29.723
 He plays them exactly the same audio argument,

1241
00:43:29.801 --> 00:43:34.769
 but this time they listen to the audio argument whilst they're watching an unrelated silent film.

1242
00:43:34.879 --> 00:43:35.004
 Now,

1243
00:43:35.066 --> 00:43:37.660
 when that group say whether they've changed their opinion,

1244
00:43:37.722 --> 00:43:43.160
 they are statistically significantly more likely to have changed their deep-seated opinion than the first group.

1245
00:43:43.441 --> 00:43:44.754
 Fasting's argument is the

1246
00:43:44.828 --> 00:43:50.332
 The brain is amazing at generating arguments to maintain its existing point of view.

1247
00:43:50.734 --> 00:43:53.000
 But if the brain has to do something else,

1248
00:43:53.297 --> 00:43:54.797
 like watching that silent film,

1249
00:43:55.117 --> 00:43:59.000
 some of that ability is taken up and it becomes a little bit more persuadable.

1250
00:43:59.805 --> 00:44:00.805
 That's the initial experiment.

1251
00:44:00.906 --> 00:44:03.750
 You now jump forward to 2025 and podcasts and audio.

1252
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:08.031
 And podcasts are almost always consumed while someone is doing something else.

1253
00:44:08.078 --> 00:44:08.656
 They're walking,

1254
00:44:08.687 --> 00:44:09.312
 they're traveling,

1255
00:44:09.328 --> 00:44:10.078
 they're driving the car,

1256
00:44:10.141 --> 00:44:11.234
 they're doing their housework.

1257
00:44:11.594 --> 00:44:13.734
 That is normally positioned as a negative.

1258
00:44:13.781 --> 00:44:14.437
 but actually

1259
00:44:14.764 --> 00:44:16.164
 if you want to change someone's opinion,

1260
00:44:16.405 --> 00:44:18.245
 it is a massive positive.

1261
00:44:18.344 --> 00:44:22.989
 So I think you're absolutely right in that idea that you've got this opportunity with audio.

1262
00:44:23.129 --> 00:44:26.168
 It's got this opportunity to overturn some of those entrenched opinions,

1263
00:44:26.426 --> 00:44:28.286
 but don't take it for granted.

1264
00:44:28.387 --> 00:44:28.887
 Of course,

1265
00:44:29.129 --> 00:44:29.489
 you can,

1266
00:44:29.707 --> 00:44:31.840
 by driving up the power of creative,

1267
00:44:31.841 --> 00:44:33.231
 get even more from that opportunity.

1268
00:44:33.731 --> 00:44:34.231
For sure.

1269
00:44:34.450 --> 00:44:35.325
 That's incredible.

1270
00:44:35.731 --> 00:44:36.387
 And it just,

1271
00:44:36.606 --> 00:44:36.903
 you know,

1272
00:44:37.168 --> 00:44:38.153
 it's amazing to me.

1273
00:44:38.215 --> 00:44:38.372
 Like,

1274
00:44:38.543 --> 00:44:39.403
 why are so many,

1275
00:44:39.590 --> 00:44:39.825
 you know,

1276
00:44:39.872 --> 00:44:43.497
 we've been doing now like 40 some episodes of Ad Infinitum and the average

1277
00:44:43.712 --> 00:44:59.721
 audiolytics score is always at like 60 65 right in there i'll go ahead and tell you this one scored a 78 in audiolytics which is our goal is 90 and it's on a curve so it gets harder and harder to get to a 90 as you get closer to it as you approach the speed of light so

1278
00:44:59.722 --> 00:45:10.721
 the point is that like a 5 and a 78 kind of feel in the same land to me because like rarely do you get an ad that's less than 50 because there's some transfer of information and audiolytics is more predisposed of the transfer of information,

1279
00:45:10.784 --> 00:45:11.378
 all this to say.

1280
00:45:11.660 --> 00:45:13.644
 Why is there so much mediocre stuff on audio?

1281
00:45:13.943 --> 00:45:14.605
 In my mind,

1282
00:45:14.685 --> 00:45:16.287
 my answer that I'm getting to is like,

1283
00:45:16.288 --> 00:45:17.350
 it doesn't have to be any better.

1284
00:45:17.451 --> 00:45:18.771
 It doesn't have to be any better to work.

1285
00:45:19.314 --> 00:45:20.517
 Like that's where the bar is.

1286
00:45:21.020 --> 00:45:21.720
 Because it works.

1287
00:45:22.081 --> 00:45:23.161
 Because of what you're saying,

1288
00:45:23.162 --> 00:45:24.221
 the brain is malleable.

1289
00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:24.721
And also,

1290
00:45:24.961 --> 00:45:26.602
 why is most stuff average?

1291
00:45:26.661 --> 00:45:28.563
 Because that's the law of statistics.

1292
00:45:28.883 --> 00:45:29.879
That's the average.

1293
00:45:30.481 --> 00:45:31.262
You're a sci-fi fan.

1294
00:45:31.418 --> 00:45:32.122
 Didn't you say sci-fi fan?

1295
00:45:32.123 --> 00:45:32.239
 Yeah,

1296
00:45:32.240 --> 00:45:32.739
 oh yeah.

1297
00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:33.442
 And I'm sure,

1298
00:45:33.926 --> 00:45:34.926
 and I don't know much about sci-fi,

1299
00:45:34.927 --> 00:45:35.840
 so I might get this slightly wrong,

1300
00:45:35.864 --> 00:45:38.286
 but I think there was a writer called Sturgeon,

1301
00:45:38.442 --> 00:45:39.723
 and someone said to him,

1302
00:45:40.051 --> 00:45:40.286
 why,

1303
00:45:40.598 --> 00:45:41.504
 you know,

1304
00:45:41.708 --> 00:45:44.129
 some kind of academic type being dismissive as a genre,

1305
00:45:44.458 --> 00:45:46.723
 and the dismissive interviewer said,

1306
00:45:46.739 --> 00:45:46.864
 well,

1307
00:45:46.926 --> 00:45:47.442
 90%

1308
00:45:47.443 --> 00:45:48.770
 of sci-fi is rubbish.

1309
00:45:49.032 --> 00:45:49.653
 And Sturgeon said,

1310
00:45:49.693 --> 00:45:49.853
 yeah,

1311
00:45:49.854 --> 00:45:50.273
 it's rubbish.

1312
00:45:50.374 --> 00:45:51.354
 But then 90%

1313
00:45:51.374 --> 00:45:52.655
 of everything is rubbish.

1314
00:45:52.956 --> 00:45:53.218
 You know,

1315
00:45:53.397 --> 00:45:54.436
 that's the point.

1316
00:45:54.757 --> 00:45:57.358
 Creating something brilliant is bloody hard.

1317
00:45:57.600 --> 00:46:01.507
 Getting a 7 or 8 out of 10 is an amazing achievement on the parts of the creative.

1318
00:46:01.702 --> 00:46:06.905
 It's much easier to end up through a committee-like process somewhere slap bang in the middle.

1319
00:46:06.983 --> 00:46:09.718
 So I think that we should judge it in that context.

1320
00:46:09.905 --> 00:46:10.374
For sure.

1321
00:46:10.546 --> 00:46:10.827
 Okay.

1322
00:46:10.999 --> 00:46:12.218
 So we've got a baseline.

1323
00:46:12.499 --> 00:46:16.843
 Let's see how IBM showed up on the favorites sports betting podcast.

1324
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:17.936
 and

1325
00:46:18.224 --> 00:46:18.604
 Here we go.

1326
00:46:22.729 --> 00:46:30.093
If you're waiting for your AI to turn into ROI and wondering how long you have to wait,

1327
00:46:31.780 --> 00:46:32.999
 maybe you need to do more than wait.

1328
00:46:36.296 --> 00:46:37.577
 Any business can use AI.

1329
00:46:38.577 --> 00:46:41.280
 IBM helps you use AI to change how you do business.

1330
00:46:43.233 --> 00:46:44.468
 Let's create smarter business.

1331
00:46:45.155 --> 00:46:45.483
 IBM.

1332
00:46:51.355 --> 00:46:52.855
Speaking of rubbish,

1333
00:46:54.117 --> 00:46:54.558
 what do you think,

1334
00:46:54.597 --> 00:46:54.898
 Richard?

1335
00:46:55.019 --> 00:46:56.484
 Are you going to save IBM's ad?

1336
00:46:56.617 --> 00:46:58.101
 Are you going to make a case for their life?

1337
00:46:58.242 --> 00:46:58.539
I mean,

1338
00:46:58.742 --> 00:47:00.562
 the only thing that I would,

1339
00:47:00.945 --> 00:47:02.445
 and I think we are grasping at straws slightly here.

1340
00:47:02.546 --> 00:47:07.749
 The only thing that I would go for positively is this emphasis on ease.

1341
00:47:08.171 --> 00:47:09.359
 There have been two

1342
00:47:09.812 --> 00:47:14.218
 Nobel Prize winners who've got a behavioral science background in the last 25 years.

1343
00:47:14.578 --> 00:47:14.999
 So you've got...

1344
00:47:15.260 --> 00:47:15.741
 Daniel Kahneman,

1345
00:47:15.742 --> 00:47:16.742
 2002,

1346
00:47:17.181 --> 00:47:17.723
 Richard Thaler,

1347
00:47:17.724 --> 00:47:18.484
 2017.

1348
00:47:18.844 --> 00:47:21.187
 And both have been asked a very similar question in an interview,

1349
00:47:21.246 --> 00:47:21.867
 which is,

1350
00:47:22.226 --> 00:47:24.629
 what is the single biggest thing you've learned from all your research?

1351
00:47:24.910 --> 00:47:26.254
 And both of them have said the same thing,

1352
00:47:26.332 --> 00:47:26.871
 make it easy.

1353
00:47:27.332 --> 00:47:29.691
 And that's not just a statement of the obvious.

1354
00:47:29.855 --> 00:47:31.074
 They're not just saying,

1355
00:47:31.316 --> 00:47:32.785
 if you make a behavior easier,

1356
00:47:32.801 --> 00:47:33.410
 it happens more.

1357
00:47:33.973 --> 00:47:39.566
 What they argue is that most people have the wrong model of human behavior in their minds.

1358
00:47:39.723 --> 00:47:43.613
 Most people think the way to change behavior is to motivate people to want to change.

1359
00:47:43.910 --> 00:47:44.832
 Whereas

1360
00:47:45.100 --> 00:47:47.280
 we tend to overestimate the impact of motivation.

1361
00:47:47.661 --> 00:47:52.161
 The argument from Thaler and Kahneman is the other way to change behavior is to make it easier.

1362
00:47:52.461 --> 00:47:52.981
 And again,

1363
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:53.364
 and again,

1364
00:47:53.379 --> 00:47:53.879
 and again,

1365
00:47:54.340 --> 00:47:55.200
 experts,

1366
00:47:55.543 --> 00:47:56.200
 people in general,

1367
00:47:56.442 --> 00:47:59.200
 underestimate the importance of making something easier.

1368
00:47:59.426 --> 00:48:01.223
 You remove small barriers,

1369
00:48:01.379 --> 00:48:02.817
 you remove tiny bits of friction,

1370
00:48:02.942 --> 00:48:05.426
 and it tends to have this unexpectedly large impact.

1371
00:48:05.520 --> 00:48:11.583
 So maybe the one positive about that IBM is trying to remove the fear factor from businesses,

1372
00:48:11.584 --> 00:48:13.286
 It's stressing that using AI is easy.

1373
00:48:13.504 --> 00:48:14.801
 But I think that's maybe...

1374
00:48:15.048 --> 00:48:16.090
 being a little generous.

1375
00:48:16.330 --> 00:48:17.170
I think it is too.

1376
00:48:18.051 --> 00:48:18.371
 Richard,

1377
00:48:18.392 --> 00:48:19.494
 I think you might be right,

1378
00:48:19.611 --> 00:48:21.853
 but you're saying great stuff all along the way.

1379
00:48:21.935 --> 00:48:24.080
 So the chief audio officers listening are benefiting.

1380
00:48:24.236 --> 00:48:27.517
 Let's go ahead and just do the next two and then we can talk about them as a group.

1381
00:48:27.603 --> 00:48:27.760
 Okay.

1382
00:48:28.002 --> 00:48:28.119
 Oh,

1383
00:48:28.158 --> 00:48:28.603
 but first,

1384
00:48:28.642 --> 00:48:33.002
 what would you give IBM on a scale of one to 10 on the Richard shot and scale of one to 10?

1385
00:48:33.003 --> 00:48:34.064
I'm going to give it six out of 10,

1386
00:48:34.080 --> 00:48:34.314
 I think,

1387
00:48:34.330 --> 00:48:36.236
 because at least there's that reference to all these.

1388
00:48:36.267 --> 00:48:36.705
 So yeah,

1389
00:48:36.767 --> 00:48:37.267
 six out of 10.

1390
00:48:37.767 --> 00:48:37.970
Okay.

1391
00:48:38.033 --> 00:48:38.330
 All right.

1392
00:48:38.424 --> 00:48:39.267
 So let's do the next two.

1393
00:48:39.268 --> 00:48:40.345
 We're going to go back to back.

1394
00:48:40.392 --> 00:48:43.861
 Here's American Beverage Association on Locked On Jayhawks.

1395
00:48:44.064 --> 00:48:44.905
 Rock Chalk Jayhawks,

1396
00:48:44.925 --> 00:48:45.466
 go KU.

1397
00:48:45.825 --> 00:48:47.087
 Here we go.

1398
00:48:49.769 --> 00:48:52.011
When it comes to what your family eats and drinks,

1399
00:48:52.355 --> 00:48:53.675
 you know your choices matter.

1400
00:48:54.316 --> 00:48:57.519
 You're the expert because you know what fits your life.

1401
00:48:58.339 --> 00:49:00.636
 And getting it right starts with good information.

1402
00:49:01.339 --> 00:49:07.761
 That's why America's beverage companies are sharing more information about our ingredients at goodtoknowfacts.org.

1403
00:49:08.448 --> 00:49:09.042
 No spin,

1404
00:49:09.386 --> 00:49:10.105
 no judgments,

1405
00:49:10.355 --> 00:49:11.105
 just the facts.

1406
00:49:11.380 --> 00:49:15.264
 straight from the experts for more than 140 beverage ingredients.

1407
00:49:16.065 --> 00:49:18.045
 Visit goodtoknowfacts.org.

1408
00:49:19.651 --> 00:49:20.049
Okay,

1409
00:49:20.369 --> 00:49:23.174
 so that is American Beverage Association.

1410
00:49:23.494 --> 00:49:25.893
 And let's listen to the next one real quick,

1411
00:49:25.894 --> 00:49:27.158
 and then we'll talk about them as a group.

1412
00:49:27.213 --> 00:49:29.291
 This is McAfee on

1413
00:49:29.635 --> 00:49:30.526
 Sounds Like a Cult.

1414
00:49:31.854 --> 00:49:33.401
And now a message from McAfee.

1415
00:49:33.823 --> 00:49:34.838
I'm not a real kid.

1416
00:49:35.026 --> 00:49:36.510
And I'm not a real grandpa.

1417
00:49:36.838 --> 00:49:38.010
We're deep fakes.

1418
00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:42.622
And we're making it harder to tell what's real online.

1419
00:49:42.740 --> 00:49:43.341
The good news?

1420
00:49:43.740 --> 00:49:44.462
 McAfee can help.

1421
00:49:45.021 --> 00:49:49.806
 McAfee's scam detector automatically identifies text and email scams and even deep fakes.

1422
00:49:49.986 --> 00:49:52.322
So if you whippersnappers meet one of us,

1423
00:49:52.665 --> 00:49:53.181
 you'll know.

1424
00:49:53.704 --> 00:49:54.798
If they're faking it,

1425
00:49:55.189 --> 00:49:56.923
 they're not making it past us.

1426
00:49:57.439 --> 00:49:59.423
 Get award-winning scam detection today.

1427
00:49:59.845 --> 00:50:01.720
 McAfee.com slash keep it real.

1428
00:50:03.361 --> 00:50:03.783
Okay.

1429
00:50:05.192 --> 00:50:06.313
 I don't normally do this,

1430
00:50:06.393 --> 00:50:07.914
 but obviously that's the winner.

1431
00:50:09.776 --> 00:50:10.838
 Is it for you as well,

1432
00:50:11.018 --> 00:50:11.576
 of the four?

1433
00:50:11.819 --> 00:50:12.799
I think for the four.

1434
00:50:12.858 --> 00:50:13.100
 You know,

1435
00:50:13.201 --> 00:50:14.600
 at least there's an element of,

1436
00:50:14.662 --> 00:50:14.920
 I think,

1437
00:50:14.959 --> 00:50:15.959
 slight surprise.

1438
00:50:16.123 --> 00:50:17.803
 It's more distinct than the others.

1439
00:50:18.045 --> 00:50:19.248
 They've actually created a deep fake.

1440
00:50:19.264 --> 00:50:23.311
 I think the kid was the more impressive deep fake than the grandpa.

1441
00:50:23.655 --> 00:50:26.655
 Maybe my English ear isn't attuned to accents,

1442
00:50:26.717 --> 00:50:28.139
 but the kid sounded realistic.

1443
00:50:28.358 --> 00:50:28.514
Yeah,

1444
00:50:28.561 --> 00:50:29.092
 he did.

1445
00:50:29.155 --> 00:50:29.373
 I mean,

1446
00:50:29.420 --> 00:50:30.014
 I liked that.

1447
00:50:30.076 --> 00:50:33.061
 What I felt like it did well is it tied right into,

1448
00:50:33.467 --> 00:50:33.701
 like,

1449
00:50:33.764 --> 00:50:34.701
 what's up right now.

1450
00:50:35.632 --> 00:50:39.374
 I feel like every real world conversation I'm having is somebody going,

1451
00:50:39.394 --> 00:50:41.015
 have you seen the latest Sora video?

1452
00:50:41.233 --> 00:50:42.894
 I'm talking about all ages.

1453
00:50:43.136 --> 00:50:44.034
 Everybody's going,

1454
00:50:44.136 --> 00:50:47.237
 I don't know what's real and what's not real online.

1455
00:50:47.433 --> 00:50:49.097
 So that's why I'm giving that one just for me,

1456
00:50:49.237 --> 00:50:51.480
 like Stu Redwine points going like,

1457
00:50:51.573 --> 00:50:51.839
 okay,

1458
00:50:52.323 --> 00:50:54.980
 that's a real thing in society right now.

1459
00:50:55.355 --> 00:50:55.480
Yeah.

1460
00:50:55.481 --> 00:50:58.433
 And if we go for that principle of concreteness versus abstraction,

1461
00:50:58.964 --> 00:51:03.683
 actually creating a deep fake and letting people experience it themselves and how realistic it is.

1462
00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:04.000
 You know,

1463
00:51:04.020 --> 00:51:04.881
 that's far,

1464
00:51:04.941 --> 00:51:08.484
 far closer than slightly abstract discussion of the point.

1465
00:51:08.784 --> 00:51:09.066
Okay.

1466
00:51:09.124 --> 00:51:10.726
 So what would you give that one out of 10 first?

1467
00:51:10.745 --> 00:51:11.245
 Let's do that.

1468
00:51:11.308 --> 00:51:12.613
Let's give that one eight out of 10.

1469
00:51:13.792 --> 00:51:13.988
Okay.

1470
00:51:14.152 --> 00:51:14.847
 Eight out of 10.

1471
00:51:14.909 --> 00:51:15.175
 All right.

1472
00:51:15.176 --> 00:51:16.355
 And then American beverage,

1473
00:51:16.370 --> 00:51:17.136
 what do you give that one?

1474
00:51:17.370 --> 00:51:20.331
I'm a bit cynical about that because I'm imagining this is,

1475
00:51:20.472 --> 00:51:27.222
 is this a kind of trade body for some beverages that probably aren't very good for you and they're going to tell you the information.

1476
00:51:27.316 --> 00:51:27.566
 I mean,

1477
00:51:27.581 --> 00:51:31.331
 I don't believe information is going to change whether people make healthy choices.

1478
00:51:31.580 --> 00:51:35.021
 There's some amazing studies by people like Bradley Turmore.

1479
00:51:35.022 --> 00:51:36.320
 I think he's at Stanford,

1480
00:51:36.543 --> 00:51:38.382
 where he works at a cafeteria for 10,

1481
00:51:38.402 --> 00:51:39.023
 11 weeks,

1482
00:51:39.382 --> 00:51:43.043
 alternates the labels for the vegetable dishes.

1483
00:51:43.160 --> 00:51:47.144
 So sometimes it'll be something like low and light beetroots.

1484
00:51:47.363 --> 00:51:50.246
 Other times it'll be zingy beetroots in a citrus sauce.

1485
00:51:50.418 --> 00:51:54.793
 So what he does is some weeks he has a label emphasizing the healthiness.

1486
00:51:55.121 --> 00:51:58.246
 Other times he has a label emphasizing the tastiness.

1487
00:51:58.511 --> 00:52:00.527
 And what he shows is each week...

1488
00:52:00.768 --> 00:52:01.869
 When you vary the label,

1489
00:52:02.070 --> 00:52:04.412
 you see this swing of popularity.

1490
00:52:04.492 --> 00:52:08.056
 You get far more people picking those dishes when they focus on taste.

1491
00:52:08.057 --> 00:52:09.455
 I think it's of the order of 41%

1492
00:52:09.939 --> 00:52:11.861
 more sales when you focus on taste over health.

1493
00:52:12.001 --> 00:52:18.025
 And I think the problem here is we think the way to get people to do healthy behaviors is just to give them more information,

1494
00:52:18.259 --> 00:52:20.009
 tell them about the amazing benefits in their body.

1495
00:52:20.244 --> 00:52:20.884
 But actually,

1496
00:52:21.384 --> 00:52:24.369
 just like a lager or a bag of chips or fries,

1497
00:52:24.384 --> 00:52:24.837
 whatever you call them,

1498
00:52:25.009 --> 00:52:26.556
 it's thinking something's going to taste amazing.

1499
00:52:26.650 --> 00:52:27.181
 That's what...

1500
00:52:27.320 --> 00:52:28.662
 pushes us to actually buy it.

1501
00:52:28.681 --> 00:52:29.222
 Yeah.

1502
00:52:29.261 --> 00:52:30.084
 To actually try it.

1503
00:52:30.085 --> 00:52:31.404
 So I just don't think that

1504
00:52:31.904 --> 00:52:34.748
 American Beverage Association is going to have any impacts at all.

1505
00:52:34.749 --> 00:52:35.412
 So I reckon,

1506
00:52:35.592 --> 00:52:35.748
 yeah,

1507
00:52:35.787 --> 00:52:36.326
 of the four,

1508
00:52:36.748 --> 00:52:38.654
 let's definitely go for the McAfee.

1509
00:52:40.092 --> 00:52:40.810
So Ambev,

1510
00:52:40.873 --> 00:52:41.373
 you give it...

1511
00:52:41.654 --> 00:52:42.396
4.99.

1512
00:52:42.397 --> 00:52:44.771
 I think I went a bit hard on the first,

1513
00:52:44.772 --> 00:52:45.678
 but I feel I've been a bit mean,

1514
00:52:45.740 --> 00:52:47.178
 so I'm feeling quite guilty now.

1515
00:52:47.678 --> 00:52:47.943
Well,

1516
00:52:48.178 --> 00:52:50.006
 you can revise the Tide Pods one.

1517
00:52:50.007 --> 00:52:51.084
 Do you want to revise your score?

1518
00:52:51.540 --> 00:52:51.660
No,

1519
00:52:51.661 --> 00:52:52.301
 I'm not that guilty.

1520
00:52:52.461 --> 00:52:53.100
Here's the question.

1521
00:52:53.121 --> 00:52:54.441
 Is it better than IBM?

1522
00:52:54.461 --> 00:53:00.138
The only thing I would say is I think creating a really good ad is a phenomenally hard thing.

1523
00:53:00.459 --> 00:53:08.303
 And what ends up being produced is often not what the copywriters have originally intended.

1524
00:53:08.490 --> 00:53:11.506
 It is something that has to go through many,

1525
00:53:11.568 --> 00:53:13.568
 many layers of committee process.

1526
00:53:13.771 --> 00:53:17.959
 So sometimes those interesting edges that make it distinctive.

1527
00:53:18.312 --> 00:53:21.433
 are hard to defend when everyone is behaving in this ultra logical,

1528
00:53:21.513 --> 00:53:22.275
 critical way.

1529
00:53:22.571 --> 00:53:25.735
 And then they get slowly diluted by the time they come to air.

1530
00:53:25.993 --> 00:53:26.114
 So,

1531
00:53:26.775 --> 00:53:27.017
 you know,

1532
00:53:27.235 --> 00:53:29.173
 they are all reasonable achievements,

1533
00:53:29.376 --> 00:53:30.134
 but I think,

1534
00:53:30.353 --> 00:53:30.478
 yeah,

1535
00:53:30.479 --> 00:53:33.556
 I would go for that McAvee as being the one that has a bit of something around it.

1536
00:53:33.892 --> 00:53:34.032
Yeah,

1537
00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:34.603
 exactly.

1538
00:53:34.618 --> 00:53:35.775
 And that's not saying much,

1539
00:53:35.837 --> 00:53:36.196
 you know,

1540
00:53:36.337 --> 00:53:37.243
 but I think that's okay.

1541
00:53:37.259 --> 00:53:38.290
 That's why we do this.

1542
00:53:38.321 --> 00:53:38.556
 You know,

1543
00:53:38.603 --> 00:53:45.165
 something I want to point out is podcasting is quickly becoming what commercial radio became.

1544
00:53:45.275 --> 00:53:47.571
 And you're seeing more and more ads in the ad breaks.

1545
00:53:48.012 --> 00:53:48.493
 For instance,

1546
00:53:48.533 --> 00:53:49.794
 all these that you and I just listened to,

1547
00:53:49.854 --> 00:53:53.617
 not a single one of them was a host that we knew because they didn't self-identify.

1548
00:53:53.980 --> 00:53:55.699
 These are just produced spots that,

1549
00:53:55.761 --> 00:53:56.441
 to your point,

1550
00:53:56.542 --> 00:53:57.441
 are kind of mediocre.

1551
00:53:57.542 --> 00:54:01.628
 Audiolytics lined them up just about the same from a persuasive standpoint.

1552
00:54:01.886 --> 00:54:03.589
 McAfee had a 77%.

1553
00:54:03.644 --> 00:54:04.925
 You gave that an 8 out of 10.

1554
00:54:05.316 --> 00:54:07.206
 IBM had a 69%.

1555
00:54:07.410 --> 00:54:08.769
 You gave it a 6 out of 10.

1556
00:54:09.035 --> 00:54:12.863
 And then they switched Tide Pods and Ambev.

1557
00:54:13.097 --> 00:54:14.581
 They were right near each other.

1558
00:54:14.932 --> 00:54:41.339
 ambev actually also had a 69 and then tide pods had a 73 so you guys kind of alternated the point is you know they're down at the bottom i think that yeah there's a lot of information that was still communicated but like we said nobody's this isn't anything anybody's gonna play anybody i doubt anybody that worked on these goes home and goes let me play for you what i made today maybe the mcafee one yeah and then my one with the ambev it's not the

1559
00:54:41.716 --> 00:54:42.277
creative.

1560
00:54:42.337 --> 00:54:45.621
 It's the underlying assumption probably on the brief,

1561
00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:46.000
 which is,

1562
00:54:46.019 --> 00:54:46.320
 you know,

1563
00:54:46.402 --> 00:54:47.761
 if we give people information,

1564
00:54:47.902 --> 00:54:49.062
 it will change their behavior.

1565
00:54:49.183 --> 00:54:49.644
Good point.

1566
00:54:49.703 --> 00:54:49.961
Well,

1567
00:54:50.383 --> 00:54:53.508
 we've had information about smoking being bad for us for 60 years,

1568
00:54:53.547 --> 00:54:55.008
 that alcohol ruins our livers,

1569
00:54:55.047 --> 00:54:57.211
 that obesity reduces our life expectancy.

1570
00:54:57.351 --> 00:54:59.219
 We haven't got a shortage of information,

1571
00:54:59.390 --> 00:55:01.297
 but what we have is a shortage of behavior change.

1572
00:55:01.515 --> 00:55:04.078
 And I think if you want to encourage healthy behaviors,

1573
00:55:04.281 --> 00:55:08.203
 the things you need to do are more focused on taste,

1574
00:55:08.250 --> 00:55:09.281
 make the same people want.

1575
00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:12.322
 rather than trying to lead them down the information route?

1576
00:55:12.703 --> 00:55:13.443
I think you have to.

1577
00:55:13.623 --> 00:55:13.904
 You know,

1578
00:55:14.025 --> 00:55:15.127
 I was going to mention this earlier,

1579
00:55:15.128 --> 00:55:16.048
 but I'll go ahead and mention it now.

1580
00:55:16.107 --> 00:55:17.306
 I think about 100 years ago,

1581
00:55:17.369 --> 00:55:18.291
 the idea was think,

1582
00:55:18.369 --> 00:55:18.611
 feel,

1583
00:55:18.666 --> 00:55:18.791
 do,

1584
00:55:19.088 --> 00:55:20.369
 the hierarchy of effects.

1585
00:55:20.588 --> 00:55:24.111
 We're going to get people to think a certain way so they feel and then they take action.

1586
00:55:24.197 --> 00:55:25.494
 And then I feel like it switched in the

1587
00:55:26.103 --> 00:55:26.994
 1960s. We touched on this.

1588
00:55:27.213 --> 00:55:28.541
 We're going to get them to feel really good,

1589
00:55:28.744 --> 00:55:29.478
 open happiness.

1590
00:55:29.479 --> 00:55:31.916
 They're going to feel and then they'll think different and then they'll do different.

1591
00:55:32.088 --> 00:55:35.025
 I'm increasingly convinced if I can get somebody to do something,

1592
00:55:35.166 --> 00:55:35.619
 anything,

1593
00:55:35.869 --> 00:55:37.291
 and get them to do it over and over,

1594
00:55:37.509 --> 00:55:38.869
 They will gradually that.

1595
00:55:39.196 --> 00:55:40.097
 and it feels good,

1596
00:55:40.417 --> 00:55:42.418
 gradually it'll become a working part of their mind.

1597
00:55:42.539 --> 00:55:43.981
 They may change the way they think.

1598
00:55:44.282 --> 00:55:44.704
 But man,

1599
00:55:44.723 --> 00:55:46.422
 the key to me is behavior,

1600
00:55:46.664 --> 00:55:47.766
 which to your point,

1601
00:55:48.024 --> 00:55:49.688
 using behavioral science,

1602
00:55:49.829 --> 00:55:52.266
 how can you entice them to take that behavior,

1603
00:55:52.532 --> 00:55:53.633
 do that thing you want them to do?

1604
00:55:53.829 --> 00:55:55.235
 Then you'll get to the thinking part.

1605
00:55:55.297 --> 00:55:57.235
 But changing the way people think out the gate,

1606
00:55:57.313 --> 00:55:57.657
 like that,

1607
00:55:57.797 --> 00:55:59.422
 I just don't think that's the way people work.

1608
00:55:59.910 --> 00:56:00.110
Yeah,

1609
00:56:00.551 --> 00:56:00.811
 I mean,

1610
00:56:00.812 --> 00:56:02.732
 I'm fixated on health food now,

1611
00:56:02.873 --> 00:56:05.494
 but there's a study by Paul Rosen,

1612
00:56:05.596 --> 00:56:06.955
 I think it's University of Pennsylvania,

1613
00:56:07.318 --> 00:56:09.783
 and he runs a study in a cafeteria again,

1614
00:56:09.924 --> 00:56:11.541
 trying to encourage people to eat more vegetables.

1615
00:56:11.682 --> 00:56:17.424
 And one of the things he does is randomize on days whether the vegetables are going to be served with a,

1616
00:56:17.705 --> 00:56:17.924
 you know,

1617
00:56:17.925 --> 00:56:18.986
 you're walking past in the cafeteria,

1618
00:56:18.987 --> 00:56:21.392
 there's a big bowl of sweet corn or courgettes.

1619
00:56:21.517 --> 00:56:24.877
 And some days there's a giant ladle for you to put stuff on your plate.

1620
00:56:25.049 --> 00:56:27.096
 Other times there's a pair of tongs.

1621
00:56:27.439 --> 00:56:29.158
 And what he shows is that.

1622
00:56:29.350 --> 00:56:57.301
 just making that little bit easier for people to get food onto their plate significantly increases the volume of vegetables people buy it's not that the vegetables are more or less appealing but because it's easier to spoon out vegetables in a ladle people end up buying more that isn't changing feelings towards the vegetables it's not changing information about vegetables but it's removing the friction making it easier for people to get a portion or two of veg on their plate so i think start with ease first of all and then think about those other two two areas

1623
00:56:57.798 --> 00:56:58.960
The other two areas would be what?

1624
00:56:59.120 --> 00:56:59.260
Oh,

1625
00:56:59.360 --> 00:56:59.600
 sorry.

1626
00:56:59.620 --> 00:56:59.860
 You know,

1627
00:56:59.921 --> 00:57:01.042
 motivation and information.

1628
00:57:01.362 --> 00:57:02.180
Motivation.

1629
00:57:02.563 --> 00:57:04.927
 And then if you were to rank order motivation and information,

1630
00:57:04.985 --> 00:57:05.970
 which order would you go in?

1631
00:57:06.087 --> 00:57:07.790
I would say motivation before information.

1632
00:57:07.805 --> 00:57:10.673
 We've been talking about certainly in the food aspect.

1633
00:57:10.954 --> 00:57:11.813
We're basically saying do,

1634
00:57:11.915 --> 00:57:12.095
 feel,

1635
00:57:12.149 --> 00:57:12.352
 think.

1636
00:57:12.430 --> 00:57:13.337
 Start with ease.

1637
00:57:13.376 --> 00:57:13.852
 Ease is do.

1638
00:57:14.337 --> 00:57:15.399
 Motivation is feel.

1639
00:57:15.696 --> 00:57:16.555
 Information is think,

1640
00:57:16.759 --> 00:57:17.243
 so to speak.

1641
00:57:17.321 --> 00:57:17.430
Yeah.

1642
00:57:17.540 --> 00:57:18.055
 And of course,

1643
00:57:18.056 --> 00:57:20.587
 there'll be variance by whatever your challenge is.

1644
00:57:20.743 --> 00:57:21.618
 And often you can,

1645
00:57:21.727 --> 00:57:23.649
 the great thing is with ease.

1646
00:57:23.814 --> 00:57:24.534
 and motivation,

1647
00:57:24.594 --> 00:57:25.754
 you can do the two together.

1648
00:57:25.814 --> 00:57:26.515
 They're not contradictory,

1649
00:57:26.516 --> 00:57:29.296
 so it's not a problem to approach it from both angles.

1650
00:57:29.355 --> 00:57:32.515
 But I would start with whatever I want to encourage.

1651
00:57:32.836 --> 00:57:37.578
 What are the small barriers that are stopping people behaving the way they want and put more efforts into resolving them?

1652
00:57:37.898 --> 00:57:39.718
 And then when it came to that motivation angle,

1653
00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:40.218
 I'd be thinking,

1654
00:57:40.500 --> 00:57:43.671
 how do I make this behavior appear like it's commonplace?

1655
00:57:43.781 --> 00:57:47.703
 How do I make it appear like lots of like-minded other people are already doing it?

1656
00:57:47.843 --> 00:57:49.437
I'm like furiously writing all this down.

1657
00:57:49.500 --> 00:57:50.156
 It's hilarious.

1658
00:57:52.130 --> 00:57:53.010
 Because like one,

1659
00:57:53.071 --> 00:57:56.691
 this is being recorded to I like have your book and your audio book.

1660
00:57:56.692 --> 00:57:57.030
 But I'm like,

1661
00:57:57.273 --> 00:57:58.152
 this is so good.

1662
00:57:58.153 --> 00:57:59.011
 I'm kind of ready to start.

1663
00:57:59.113 --> 00:57:59.230
 OK,

1664
00:57:59.511 --> 00:57:59.710
 well,

1665
00:57:59.812 --> 00:58:05.753
 and just how easy and how good I feel about the fact we actually did take up like our entire scheduled time,

1666
00:58:05.754 --> 00:58:06.534
 which is insane.

1667
00:58:06.933 --> 00:58:09.175
 So thank you so much for joining.

1668
00:58:09.269 --> 00:58:14.019
 And if I have to sum up here for the chief audio officers that are listening,

1669
00:58:14.409 --> 00:58:15.894
 the main things I took away.

1670
00:58:15.895 --> 00:58:16.113
 I mean,

1671
00:58:16.159 --> 00:58:18.034
 Richard just said it is start with ease,

1672
00:58:18.269 --> 00:58:19.472
 then motivation.

1673
00:58:19.597 --> 00:58:21.034
 Talk about how it's commonplace.

1674
00:58:21.278 --> 00:58:22.359
 Then we give information.

1675
00:58:22.379 --> 00:58:23.800
 And I think a really critical piece,

1676
00:58:23.840 --> 00:58:25.261
 particularly in audio,

1677
00:58:25.582 --> 00:58:28.363
 is use that concrete imagery like we talked about.

1678
00:58:28.386 --> 00:58:29.226
 And once again,

1679
00:58:29.269 --> 00:58:32.410
 we hear from just taking a little sample of what's out there,

1680
00:58:32.707 --> 00:58:35.652
 the way is wide open to do incredible work in audio.

1681
00:58:36.090 --> 00:58:37.050
 It is wide open.

1682
00:58:37.113 --> 00:58:38.441
 There's so much opportunity.

1683
00:58:38.769 --> 00:58:39.816
 Take that opportunity.

1684
00:58:39.941 --> 00:58:40.222
 Richard,

1685
00:58:40.223 --> 00:58:43.925
 if there's anything that you had to add for the chief audio officers that listen,

1686
00:58:44.238 --> 00:58:44.722
 what would that be?

1687
00:58:44.738 --> 00:58:47.019
 And where can they find out more about you and what you do?

1688
00:58:47.441 --> 00:58:48.910
I think the main thing I would say...

1689
00:58:49.434 --> 00:58:51.918
 is for any chief audio officer out there,

1690
00:58:52.037 --> 00:58:54.578
 immerse yourself in behavioral science.

1691
00:58:54.601 --> 00:58:54.820
 I mean,

1692
00:58:54.898 --> 00:58:56.961
 this stuff is so practical.

1693
00:58:57.222 --> 00:59:00.367
 You can take an experiment and an insight,

1694
00:59:00.586 --> 00:59:01.750
 test it on your brands,

1695
00:59:02.187 --> 00:59:03.726
 and see if it works yourself.

1696
00:59:03.828 --> 00:59:09.046
 And because you're basing the insight on peer-reviewed or observed experiments,

1697
00:59:09.390 --> 00:59:12.312
 these things tend to be far more influential than other sources.

1698
00:59:12.390 --> 00:59:13.515
 So that would be my plea.

1699
00:59:13.812 --> 00:59:15.718
 And then in terms of getting in contact,

1700
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:17.296
 people can contact me on LinkedIn.

1701
00:59:17.640 --> 00:59:18.484
 I strongly recommend.

1702
00:59:18.830 --> 00:59:19.731
 trying any of the books,

1703
00:59:20.091 --> 00:59:20.993
 Hacking the Human Mind,

1704
00:59:21.073 --> 00:59:21.553
 Choice Factor,

1705
00:59:21.573 --> 00:59:22.293
 Illusion of Choice.

1706
00:59:22.493 --> 00:59:24.915
 And I think if people read those and then they like them,

1707
00:59:25.196 --> 00:59:29.684
 I also do a behavioral science podcast with Michael Aaron Flickr called Behavioral Science for Brands.

1708
00:59:29.918 --> 00:59:34.348
You sure made it easy and enjoyable to learn more about behavioral science.

1709
00:59:34.583 --> 00:59:35.192
Thank you very much.

1710
00:59:35.239 --> 00:59:35.629
Thank you,

1711
00:59:35.692 --> 00:59:36.067
 Richard,

1712
00:59:36.068 --> 00:59:37.333
 for coming on the show again.

1713
00:59:37.348 --> 00:59:37.629
 Thank you.

1714
00:59:37.895 --> 00:59:38.192
Thank you.

1715
00:59:38.301 --> 00:59:40.911
And that's a wrap on another episode of Ad Infinitum.

1716
00:59:40.958 --> 00:59:42.567
 For all you chief audio officers out there,

1717
00:59:42.598 --> 00:59:43.051
 remember,

1718
00:59:43.333 --> 00:59:44.536
 the mind is hackable,

1719
00:59:44.739 --> 00:59:47.379
 but only if you stop trying to convince people and start

1720
00:59:47.546 --> 00:59:49.348
 working with their wiring,

1721
00:59:49.387 --> 00:59:51.770
 accepting human nature for what it is.

1722
00:59:51.790 --> 00:59:57.133
 You can find this episode and all past analysis wherever you get your podcasts.

1723
00:59:57.337 --> 01:00:03.118
 Remember to check out Magellan AI at Magellan.ai slash ad infinitum to get your free demo.

1724
01:00:03.438 --> 01:00:04.337
 I'm Stu Redwine.

1725
01:00:04.399 --> 01:00:05.337
 Thanks for listening.

1726
01:00:05.383 --> 01:00:09.133
 And remember to have fun making the ads work.