WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.285 I have the feeling that engagement and also all these pilot innovation projects is like doing embroidery. 2 00:00:06.246 --> 00:00:07.207 You do a stitch here, 3 00:00:07.266 --> 00:00:08.188 you do a stitch there, 4 00:00:08.189 --> 00:00:08.930 you do a stitch here, 5 00:00:08.945 --> 00:00:09.727 you do a stitch there, 6 00:00:09.812 --> 00:00:10.812 and you need to keep going. 7 00:00:11.031 --> 00:00:11.992 And just at the end, 8 00:00:12.031 --> 00:00:16.562 you're going to have the full picture and like your solution will look like something. 9 00:00:17.109 --> 00:00:18.531 But the smallest stitches you do, 10 00:00:18.812 --> 00:00:20.547 like the engagement that you do here, 11 00:00:20.812 --> 00:00:22.797 also not only engagement with the citizens, 12 00:00:22.828 --> 00:00:24.500 but also with the different stakeholders, 13 00:00:24.531 --> 00:00:25.922 with your social services, 14 00:00:25.984 --> 00:00:27.328 with the energy services. 15 00:00:27.732 --> 00:00:29.013 All these small connections, 16 00:00:29.073 --> 00:00:30.895 sometimes they take time, 17 00:00:31.854 --> 00:00:33.518 they take a little bit tired about it, 18 00:00:33.639 --> 00:00:39.464 but then you are going to see that it composes the full picture and that these small contributions make it work. 19 00:00:43.604 --> 00:00:45.143 The energy transition is happening, 20 00:00:45.409 --> 00:00:46.346 but is it fair? 21 00:00:46.909 --> 00:00:48.799 Is it working for people like you and me, 22 00:00:49.378 --> 00:00:51.409 or just for big market players? 23 00:00:52.549 --> 00:00:53.534 Welcome to Energetic. 24 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:54.674 I am Marine Cornelis, 25 00:00:54.784 --> 00:00:56.815 an expert in energy and climate policies. 26 00:00:57.148 --> 00:01:00.051 and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. 27 00:01:00.811 --> 00:01:01.252 Activists, 28 00:01:01.272 --> 00:01:01.893 scientists, 29 00:01:01.971 --> 00:01:02.733 policymakers, 30 00:01:03.115 --> 00:01:05.119 the real people making real change, 31 00:01:05.697 --> 00:01:07.080 often against the odds. 32 00:01:08.041 --> 00:01:08.361 Here, 33 00:01:08.557 --> 00:01:10.783 we do not settle for surface-level takes. 34 00:01:11.244 --> 00:01:12.682 We dig into the challenges, 35 00:01:12.822 --> 00:01:13.619 the solutions, 36 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:17.088 and the lessons that do not always make the headlines. 37 00:01:17.775 --> 00:01:18.525 And in doing so, 38 00:01:19.025 --> 00:01:21.025 we rediscover something vital, 39 00:01:21.447 --> 00:01:23.697 our ability to trust in institutions, 40 00:01:23.838 --> 00:01:24.838 to believe in change, 41 00:01:25.135 --> 00:01:25.963 and to reclaim 42 00:01:26.324 --> 00:01:27.725 our power to act. 43 00:01:28.186 --> 00:01:30.009 Because if we want just resilience, 44 00:01:30.309 --> 00:01:31.630 if we want to just transition, 45 00:01:32.048 --> 00:01:34.931 we need to understand what it takes to make it happen. 46 00:01:35.516 --> 00:01:36.337 And more importantly, 47 00:01:36.774 --> 00:01:38.634 we need to believe that we can. 48 00:01:39.376 --> 00:01:40.220 Let's get into it. 49 00:01:41.821 --> 00:01:42.845 Today on Energetic, 50 00:01:43.126 --> 00:01:46.188 we travel to the places where cities learn, 51 00:01:46.391 --> 00:01:46.720 adapt, 52 00:01:46.860 --> 00:01:48.220 and sometimes surprise us. 53 00:01:48.860 --> 00:01:50.532 Our guest today is Dr. 54 00:01:50.626 --> 00:01:51.313 Eduardo Blanco, 55 00:01:51.563 --> 00:01:53.751 a project manager at Energy Cities. 56 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:56.902 and the driving force behind the PowerUp project, 57 00:01:57.363 --> 00:02:04.674 which have been working with five European municipalities to rethink how communities support people in energy poverty. 58 00:02:05.635 --> 00:02:08.791 Eduardo has moved across disciplines and continents. 59 00:02:09.174 --> 00:02:10.955 He began his career in Brazil, 60 00:02:11.111 --> 00:02:12.564 working on urban development, 61 00:02:12.674 --> 00:02:14.767 waste system and environmental planning. 62 00:02:15.361 --> 00:02:18.283 He later pursued advanced studies in France, 63 00:02:18.408 --> 00:02:20.221 focusing on sustainable mobility, 64 00:02:20.471 --> 00:02:22.892 urban ecology and regenerative design. 65 00:02:23.432 --> 00:02:29.697 This experience shaped his belief that cities become fairer when technical solutions meet social needs. 66 00:02:30.478 --> 00:02:32.619 Eduardo is a doer by nature. 67 00:02:33.079 --> 00:02:37.486 He likes ideas that become useful objects and strategies that become practical support. 68 00:02:38.009 --> 00:02:40.001 So his work blends engineering, 69 00:02:40.142 --> 00:02:44.736 design and community engagement with quite a rare sense of care. 70 00:02:45.048 --> 00:02:47.798 So he managed projects on energy poverty, 71 00:02:47.970 --> 00:02:51.142 clean energy district and the role of social sciences in the Greenteel. 72 00:02:51.744 --> 00:02:55.308 This place him at the center of Europe's conversation on trust, 73 00:02:55.449 --> 00:02:57.050 vulnerability and local action. 74 00:02:57.570 --> 00:02:58.570 So in this episode, 75 00:02:58.749 --> 00:03:03.878 we explore how cities can build the right conditions for sufficiency and dignity. 76 00:03:04.378 --> 00:03:06.597 We will discuss social energy players, 77 00:03:07.019 --> 00:03:10.847 the everyday realities of households in energy poverty and hardship, 78 00:03:11.207 --> 00:03:13.925 and the lessons that travel from Brazil to Europe. 79 00:03:14.503 --> 00:03:16.066 Eduardo brings a fresh, 80 00:03:16.285 --> 00:03:21.097 practical and deeply human view on what an equitable transition should look like. 81 00:03:22.824 --> 00:03:23.265 Eduardo, 82 00:03:23.485 --> 00:03:24.246 welcome to the show. 83 00:03:25.368 --> 00:03:26.008 Thank you very much, 84 00:03:26.067 --> 00:03:26.246 Marine. 85 00:03:26.307 --> 00:03:27.469 It's a pleasure to be around. 86 00:03:27.911 --> 00:03:28.469 Thank you so much, 87 00:03:28.508 --> 00:03:28.829 Eduardo. 88 00:03:29.051 --> 00:03:35.536 So you've been describing yourself as a doer in a world that often gets stuck in theory. 89 00:03:36.176 --> 00:03:39.778 So where does this drive to materialize ideas come from, 90 00:03:40.075 --> 00:03:43.543 whether in cities or through your own projects at home? 91 00:03:44.246 --> 00:03:44.465 Yeah, 92 00:03:44.668 --> 00:03:44.871 sure. 93 00:03:45.450 --> 00:03:46.606 It's a very good question. 94 00:03:46.809 --> 00:03:50.465 I think a lot of this came from my experience working with cities, 95 00:03:50.559 --> 00:03:50.934 actually. 96 00:03:51.504 --> 00:03:52.025 Back in Brazil, 97 00:03:52.045 --> 00:03:55.148 when I started to work as like urban planning environmental engineer, 98 00:03:55.808 --> 00:03:57.289 lots of my work was on planning, 99 00:03:57.531 --> 00:03:57.992 exactly, 100 00:03:58.090 --> 00:03:59.090 doing paperwork, 101 00:03:59.191 --> 00:04:00.496 doing planning strategy, 102 00:04:01.090 --> 00:04:02.176 long-term planning. 103 00:04:02.972 --> 00:04:05.816 And I was very disappointed to see them staying there in the paper, 104 00:04:06.316 --> 00:04:06.957 in the drawer, 105 00:04:07.301 --> 00:04:09.746 and not really getting into action. 106 00:04:09.902 --> 00:04:14.762 I think plans are definitely needed and necessary to set the long-term strategy, 107 00:04:14.793 --> 00:04:19.105 but they need to be dynamic and they need to have also this dimension of testing, 108 00:04:19.277 --> 00:04:19.808 piloting, 109 00:04:19.887 --> 00:04:20.933 going to the ground and 110 00:04:21.296 --> 00:04:23.097 doing things and seeing what works, 111 00:04:23.136 --> 00:04:24.196 what does not work. 112 00:04:24.437 --> 00:04:26.075 So a lot came to this, 113 00:04:26.118 --> 00:04:35.677 and this was also what moved me to working on our pilot project as PowerApp that we're going to talk a bit later that has really concrete implementation on the ground. 114 00:04:36.075 --> 00:04:36.982 And then also, 115 00:04:37.122 --> 00:04:37.279 yeah, 116 00:04:37.294 --> 00:04:39.075 from a more personal perspective, 117 00:04:39.466 --> 00:04:42.341 my mom has always in her life doing handicraft. 118 00:04:43.111 --> 00:04:43.731 entire life. 119 00:04:44.212 --> 00:04:46.313 And then I think it also reflects on me. 120 00:04:46.454 --> 00:04:50.477 I really like to do things and to work with my hands and to create something. 121 00:04:50.516 --> 00:04:54.981 So like from visual arts to any kind that I can use my hands to do, 122 00:04:55.762 --> 00:04:57.145 I'm always doing it. 123 00:04:57.146 --> 00:05:00.294 I think this being at the world really reflects who I am, 124 00:05:00.434 --> 00:05:01.434 at least at this moment. 125 00:05:02.309 --> 00:05:02.450 Yeah, 126 00:05:02.575 --> 00:05:03.309 that's great also, 127 00:05:03.356 --> 00:05:03.997 because I mean, 128 00:05:04.356 --> 00:05:05.153 at the end of the day, 129 00:05:05.294 --> 00:05:10.356 the cities are exactly where we are evolving as human beings. 130 00:05:10.434 --> 00:05:10.731 Like, 131 00:05:10.981 --> 00:05:11.966 there are a lot of... 132 00:05:12.559 --> 00:05:14.721 of things around us that at the end of the day, 133 00:05:14.762 --> 00:05:15.861 they shape us as well. 134 00:05:15.983 --> 00:05:19.067 So it influences our daily lives. 135 00:05:19.125 --> 00:05:20.766 And now we are not, 136 00:05:20.969 --> 00:05:21.328 of course, 137 00:05:21.367 --> 00:05:22.750 physically in the same space, 138 00:05:22.891 --> 00:05:23.789 but in a way, 139 00:05:23.852 --> 00:05:32.633 there's nothing more tangible than the city and its building and the fact that it's a composition of a lot of things that people have been doing and are doing every day. 140 00:05:32.742 --> 00:05:34.367 So that's a very nice, 141 00:05:35.086 --> 00:05:35.320 like, 142 00:05:35.774 --> 00:05:36.445 circling back. 143 00:05:37.461 --> 00:05:37.805 Yeah, 144 00:05:37.820 --> 00:05:37.977 sure, 145 00:05:37.978 --> 00:05:39.024 because actually it's a... 146 00:05:39.383 --> 00:05:42.466 It's a two-way thing because we change the space every day. 147 00:05:42.706 --> 00:05:42.905 Like, 148 00:05:42.927 --> 00:05:44.206 even if you don't think about it, 149 00:05:44.409 --> 00:05:45.850 we change the space continually. 150 00:05:46.370 --> 00:05:47.889 And the space changes as well. 151 00:05:48.093 --> 00:05:50.757 So how we perceive this space that we have been changing, 152 00:05:50.772 --> 00:05:51.593 it changes us. 153 00:05:52.132 --> 00:05:53.116 So it's very interesting. 154 00:05:53.155 --> 00:05:55.764 And I think also cities and changing the space, 155 00:05:55.765 --> 00:05:57.202 the way we use this space, 156 00:05:57.499 --> 00:05:59.218 is something that everyone can relate to. 157 00:06:00.218 --> 00:06:00.749 Everyone is, 158 00:06:01.358 --> 00:06:02.905 the majority today of the population, 159 00:06:02.983 --> 00:06:04.593 is an urban dealer. 160 00:06:04.686 --> 00:06:05.843 They live in the urban space. 161 00:06:05.889 --> 00:06:07.218 They have an argument. 162 00:06:07.233 --> 00:06:08.389 They have an opinion about it. 163 00:06:08.390 --> 00:06:08.767 the energy, 164 00:06:08.807 --> 00:06:09.527 about the mobility, 165 00:06:09.588 --> 00:06:10.648 about the public space. 166 00:06:11.209 --> 00:06:11.410 For me, 167 00:06:11.411 --> 00:06:15.074 it's a very topic that I really like and enjoy working with. 168 00:06:15.715 --> 00:06:18.254 And you have crossed many disciplines, 169 00:06:18.316 --> 00:06:18.496 right, 170 00:06:18.497 --> 00:06:19.137 in your job, 171 00:06:19.941 --> 00:06:21.121 in your studies as well. 172 00:06:21.238 --> 00:06:21.996 So you've done, 173 00:06:22.379 --> 00:06:24.590 you've worked on environmental engineering, 174 00:06:24.746 --> 00:06:26.105 on sustainable mobility, 175 00:06:26.387 --> 00:06:27.340 on urban ecology, 176 00:06:27.543 --> 00:06:28.574 on biomimicry. 177 00:06:28.668 --> 00:06:30.683 So it's a lot of doing, 178 00:06:30.824 --> 00:06:31.730 lots of things, 179 00:06:31.746 --> 00:06:34.293 a lot of very tangible sometimes 180 00:06:34.543 --> 00:06:39.666 a lot of observation and then bringing them back into something like to perspective and so on. 181 00:06:39.729 --> 00:06:45.092 So what unifies your way of looking at cities and their blind spots? 182 00:06:45.233 --> 00:06:46.694 What do you see when you see a city? 183 00:06:47.858 --> 00:06:48.037 Yeah, 184 00:06:48.576 --> 00:06:50.076 I see a complex system, 185 00:06:50.178 --> 00:06:50.561 actually. 186 00:06:50.779 --> 00:06:51.576 I think it's very, 187 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:53.514 very particular. 188 00:06:53.561 --> 00:06:57.061 And sometimes when we work in like European projects, 189 00:06:57.062 --> 00:06:58.061 in projects in general, 190 00:06:58.123 --> 00:06:59.623 you see things very clustered. 191 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:01.521 Like I'm working now on energy. 192 00:07:01.601 --> 00:07:02.761 I'm working now on mobility. 193 00:07:02.822 --> 00:07:04.904 I'm working now on nature and biodiversity. 194 00:07:05.466 --> 00:07:07.126 But everything is connected in a city. 195 00:07:07.407 --> 00:07:08.068 Impossible to, 196 00:07:09.068 --> 00:07:13.232 it's okay for the human mind and for our Cartesian way of doing and thinking. 197 00:07:13.310 --> 00:07:14.536 Sometimes we need to separate, 198 00:07:14.552 --> 00:07:16.654 but we can't forget that things are related. 199 00:07:17.435 --> 00:07:18.310 And I think this is, 200 00:07:18.716 --> 00:07:18.841 yeah, 201 00:07:18.919 --> 00:07:26.560 also what came across my experience in my work is really seeing things with all their synergies that they have and the trade-offs. 202 00:07:26.622 --> 00:07:28.310 Because if you do a mobility, 203 00:07:28.411 --> 00:07:28.811 project, 204 00:07:28.831 --> 00:07:31.074 to do a sustainable energy project, 205 00:07:31.075 --> 00:07:32.695 to put a PV in an area, 206 00:07:32.696 --> 00:07:33.496 in a green area. 207 00:07:33.976 --> 00:07:35.679 There is an impact in the nature, 208 00:07:35.699 --> 00:07:36.496 there is a trade-off, 209 00:07:36.542 --> 00:07:37.824 there is something that you need to think, 210 00:07:37.957 --> 00:07:40.019 there is going to impact the public space, 211 00:07:40.020 --> 00:07:41.863 it will impact the life of people. 212 00:07:42.324 --> 00:07:47.277 So everything is connected and sometimes we just narrow these clusters and we don't manage to, 213 00:07:48.246 --> 00:07:49.355 we don't have time also, 214 00:07:49.449 --> 00:07:50.777 or sometimes, 215 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:53.652 to see these synergies and these links, 216 00:07:53.683 --> 00:07:56.511 but they are there and I think this is the magic side of 217 00:07:56.903 --> 00:08:00.306 of cities and the work with urban areas in general. 218 00:08:01.146 --> 00:08:03.650 But then also in my perspective, 219 00:08:03.669 --> 00:08:08.697 I think all this work is also quite like being a doctor, 220 00:08:08.775 --> 00:08:09.619 a health doctor. 221 00:08:10.994 --> 00:08:11.775 Because the same thing, 222 00:08:11.776 --> 00:08:14.142 you need to do a diagnostic first, 223 00:08:14.143 --> 00:08:17.283 you need to understand which is the condition of your patient, 224 00:08:17.408 --> 00:08:18.470 which are the problems, 225 00:08:18.501 --> 00:08:19.689 which are the strains, 226 00:08:19.751 --> 00:08:21.283 how their immune system is working, 227 00:08:21.408 --> 00:08:22.704 and then to do something, 228 00:08:24.095 --> 00:08:25.204 inform it by reality, 229 00:08:25.205 --> 00:08:26.454 It's informed by decision. 230 00:08:27.287 --> 00:08:30.591 by the real context that's there. 231 00:08:30.630 --> 00:08:32.693 And there is no one single answer. 232 00:08:33.572 --> 00:08:35.173 Every urban area, 233 00:08:35.377 --> 00:08:38.095 every city is unique as every patient. 234 00:08:38.361 --> 00:08:38.877 So really, 235 00:08:39.377 --> 00:08:46.908 I think this is also a very important point that I have been seeing in the work I'm doing up to now. 236 00:08:47.986 --> 00:08:48.142 Yeah, 237 00:08:48.189 --> 00:08:51.470 and that's interesting because it's not only each city that is unique, 238 00:08:51.486 --> 00:08:54.736 but also each neighborhood within the cities that, 239 00:08:54.939 --> 00:08:55.173 I mean, 240 00:08:55.220 --> 00:08:55.752 you can have... 241 00:08:56.307 --> 00:08:59.691 vast differences between a neighborhood and another. 242 00:08:59.810 --> 00:09:06.238 And so I've been working with the New European House Facility for a few months now. 243 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:10.800 And there is this strong neighborhood approach that I find extremely interesting because, 244 00:09:11.285 --> 00:09:11.519 you know, 245 00:09:11.543 --> 00:09:16.285 in the energy field or in the housing fields until very recently, 246 00:09:16.332 --> 00:09:19.863 we were talking about the energy consumption of households, 247 00:09:19.925 --> 00:09:21.832 like the retrofitting of one building. 248 00:09:22.550 --> 00:09:22.738 and 249 00:09:23.539 --> 00:09:28.263 Now the European level understands that it's not really working. 250 00:09:28.302 --> 00:09:32.408 It has to be something that brings more socialization. 251 00:09:32.626 --> 00:09:37.072 And somehow the neighborhood is also a great place to do that. 252 00:09:37.830 --> 00:09:42.244 What is your understanding of the neighborhood's approach? 253 00:09:42.494 --> 00:09:47.462 And maybe you can kind of drive us into your difference of perspective. 254 00:09:47.509 --> 00:09:52.244 Because you come from Sao Paulo and it's very different from what you see also here in Europe, 255 00:09:52.306 --> 00:09:52.509 right? 256 00:09:53.263 --> 00:09:53.543 Yeah, 257 00:09:53.663 --> 00:09:54.023 definitely. 258 00:09:54.163 --> 00:09:55.665 I really like the neighborhood scale. 259 00:09:56.366 --> 00:09:57.868 All my PhD was around this, 260 00:09:57.927 --> 00:09:59.388 around neighborhood transition, 261 00:09:59.489 --> 00:10:00.189 neighborhood level. 262 00:10:00.190 --> 00:10:01.814 I think that, 263 00:10:02.149 --> 00:10:02.274 yeah, 264 00:10:02.634 --> 00:10:03.274 the neighborhoods, 265 00:10:03.774 --> 00:10:05.212 I think it's a good challenge for us now. 266 00:10:05.571 --> 00:10:07.915 We know now how to manage buildings, 267 00:10:07.978 --> 00:10:09.478 how to make buildings sustainable, 268 00:10:09.540 --> 00:10:10.556 regenerative, 269 00:10:10.603 --> 00:10:12.384 net zero and everything. 270 00:10:13.165 --> 00:10:14.509 But the neighborhood, 271 00:10:14.821 --> 00:10:17.821 it helps us to bridge a bit the scale, 272 00:10:17.884 --> 00:10:19.868 to go to a scale that enlarges. 273 00:10:20.087 --> 00:10:24.945 the impact and also it's easier to integrate all the social dimensions and economic dimensions because 274 00:10:25.622 --> 00:10:28.145 The definitions of neighborhood varies. 275 00:10:28.245 --> 00:10:31.208 Like you can have any kind of definitions. 276 00:10:31.266 --> 00:10:31.786 But for me, 277 00:10:31.809 --> 00:10:35.754 it's an area that also has a very specific social dynamics. 278 00:10:35.770 --> 00:10:38.231 The social fabric is working in a specific way. 279 00:10:38.278 --> 00:10:39.637 So it's not only geographical, 280 00:10:39.653 --> 00:10:40.879 but it's also social. 281 00:10:41.458 --> 00:10:43.012 It has also the cultural dimension, 282 00:10:43.044 --> 00:10:45.278 the historical dimension of the neighborhood. 283 00:10:45.325 --> 00:10:45.434 So, 284 00:10:46.481 --> 00:10:46.606 yeah, 285 00:10:46.607 --> 00:10:52.731 the neighborhood brings this perspective that also I work with a lot with nature-based solutions, 286 00:10:52.794 --> 00:10:53.465 biodiversity. 287 00:10:53.903 --> 00:10:54.856 so it's a scale 288 00:10:55.058 --> 00:10:58.861 that's more relevant for this innovation on biodiversity, 289 00:10:59.283 --> 00:11:00.021 because biodiversity, 290 00:11:00.564 --> 00:11:02.166 a single tree will not help much, 291 00:11:02.443 --> 00:11:03.349 even if it helps, 292 00:11:03.763 --> 00:11:07.654 but the structural change is much more interesting, 293 00:11:07.670 --> 00:11:11.091 and then you catalyze effects that are more tangible. 294 00:11:11.732 --> 00:11:16.716 So I think that this direction that European Bauhaus is going through neighborhoods is very interesting. 295 00:11:17.326 --> 00:11:17.638 And then, 296 00:11:17.716 --> 00:11:18.045 yeah. 297 00:11:18.338 --> 00:11:21.140 The reality of neighborhoods in Brazil and Europe is very, 298 00:11:21.221 --> 00:11:21.400 very, 299 00:11:21.461 --> 00:11:22.101 very different. 300 00:11:22.201 --> 00:11:23.140 Not only the neighborhoods, 301 00:11:23.183 --> 00:11:24.906 but the social reality as well. 302 00:11:25.484 --> 00:11:26.246 I think scale, 303 00:11:26.648 --> 00:11:27.750 from perspective scale, 304 00:11:28.008 --> 00:11:29.726 like the size are very different. 305 00:11:30.547 --> 00:11:32.109 Usually neighborhoods in Brazil, 306 00:11:32.110 --> 00:11:32.734 they are big. 307 00:11:32.930 --> 00:11:35.414 Even sometimes they are more homogeneous. 308 00:11:35.430 --> 00:11:38.570 You have like more distinction between areas that are more residential, 309 00:11:38.664 --> 00:11:39.414 more industrial, 310 00:11:39.492 --> 00:11:40.758 more commercial. 311 00:11:41.461 --> 00:11:46.101 But the size is huge and the dynamics on thinking about public transportation. 312 00:11:46.626 --> 00:11:46.746 Yeah, 313 00:11:46.826 --> 00:11:47.407 economy. 314 00:11:47.467 --> 00:11:47.847 It's very, 315 00:11:47.888 --> 00:11:53.772 very different because we have also lots of informal economy still taking place in this place. 316 00:11:53.831 --> 00:11:53.952 So, 317 00:11:54.214 --> 00:11:54.335 yeah, 318 00:11:54.612 --> 00:11:56.097 it's changed completely the shape. 319 00:11:56.098 --> 00:12:01.018 So that's also why I think you need really to understand the reality of the neighborhood, 320 00:12:01.019 --> 00:12:04.089 to be able to propose something there that works for the people living there. 321 00:12:05.292 --> 00:12:07.042 That's really so interesting. 322 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:09.448 And that makes me think of this kind of 323 00:12:10.167 --> 00:12:10.776 15-minute city. 324 00:12:11.276 --> 00:12:13.808 It used to be like very trendy a couple of years ago. 325 00:12:13.854 --> 00:12:15.292 I don't know if it's as trendy now. 326 00:12:15.354 --> 00:12:15.620 better. 327 00:12:16.190 --> 00:12:19.190 This kind of whatever you can do within 328 00:12:19.710 --> 00:12:20.710 15 to 20 minutes, 329 00:12:20.792 --> 00:12:21.190 walking, 330 00:12:21.331 --> 00:12:21.753 cycling, 331 00:12:21.811 --> 00:12:21.952 etc. 332 00:12:22.253 --> 00:12:25.089 That becomes your reality, 333 00:12:25.229 --> 00:12:25.448 right? 334 00:12:25.511 --> 00:12:30.354 It's a very interesting approach, 335 00:12:30.456 --> 00:12:33.800 especially when you take the time to live your city, 336 00:12:33.940 --> 00:12:34.175 right? 337 00:12:34.268 --> 00:12:40.878 It might be different when you are always rushing and looking after time and running from places to places. 338 00:12:40.972 --> 00:12:43.159 but whenever you can feel... 339 00:12:43.574 --> 00:12:45.035 And experience your city, 340 00:12:45.735 --> 00:12:53.521 what you explore first is usually your own neighborhood and that makes it relatable and you see and you witness the change. 341 00:12:53.567 --> 00:12:56.185 So as a human being, 342 00:12:56.208 --> 00:12:59.052 it becomes really what shapes your daily experience, 343 00:12:59.067 --> 00:12:59.286 right? 344 00:12:59.786 --> 00:13:03.661 What you just mentioned about nature-based solution and biodiversity, 345 00:13:03.692 --> 00:13:03.817 etc. 346 00:13:04.380 --> 00:13:07.442 I find it extremely interesting when we talk about climate adaptation. 347 00:13:08.050 --> 00:13:15.015 And the fact that climate change is heating cities way more than it is heating the countryside. 348 00:13:15.315 --> 00:13:20.624 The difference of temperature can be 7 to 10 degrees between cities and the countryside. 349 00:13:20.702 --> 00:13:25.452 So having a neighborhood approach to buildings, 350 00:13:25.530 --> 00:13:27.468 to planting trees, 351 00:13:27.562 --> 00:13:31.640 to the construction of bicycle paths, 352 00:13:31.655 --> 00:13:31.796 etc. 353 00:13:32.546 --> 00:13:33.608 is also very relevant. 354 00:13:33.671 --> 00:13:34.312 And the parks, 355 00:13:35.218 --> 00:13:35.765 for instance, 356 00:13:35.874 --> 00:13:36.765 are something... 357 00:13:37.114 --> 00:13:43.219 usually people take a lot of pride of and they are profoundly in their neighborhoods like our community park almost like 358 00:13:43.781 --> 00:13:46.723 But i'm talking from a western european perspective. 359 00:13:46.785 --> 00:13:50.387 Is it something that you have analyzed in other contexts in europe? 360 00:13:51.027 --> 00:13:52.207 Yeah Oh, 361 00:13:52.208 --> 00:14:00.309 I think the the 15 minute city the amazing concept but also at the same time that I think it's great I think it's very uh european centered now. 362 00:14:00.481 --> 00:14:00.762 Uh, 363 00:14:00.763 --> 00:14:03.574 it works for europe but then yeah, 364 00:14:03.621 --> 00:14:04.699 I think this 365 00:14:05.114 --> 00:14:23.076 all these topics apply it can be applied everywhere but the challenge is where we are starting from it's very different from one area to another i think in europe in general today we are more or less homogeneous on this but then when you go to south america or even with when you go to other 366 00:14:23.092 --> 00:14:32.967 european countries territories not countries like french kuyana or rio nunez island that are french uh lands that are not in the european continent the reality is also quite different 367 00:14:34.062 --> 00:14:34.662 You should think, 368 00:14:34.882 --> 00:14:35.002 yeah, 369 00:14:35.102 --> 00:14:35.542 you should think, 370 00:14:35.582 --> 00:14:36.142 for example, 371 00:14:36.261 --> 00:14:37.922 even where I come from in Brazil, 372 00:14:38.244 --> 00:14:39.783 to walk 15 minutes from my house, 373 00:14:39.784 --> 00:14:42.283 we are going to be in the middle of houses and that's it. 374 00:14:42.603 --> 00:14:44.502 We're still going to be in the same area. 375 00:14:44.525 --> 00:14:48.049 There's nothing to do besides going to the house of someone else. 376 00:14:48.064 --> 00:14:52.408 So it needs to require a more structural change in the way of planning, 377 00:14:52.486 --> 00:14:53.142 the way of doing, 378 00:14:53.924 --> 00:14:55.799 promoting the diversity of the space. 379 00:14:56.330 --> 00:14:56.439 So, 380 00:14:56.486 --> 00:14:56.674 yeah, 381 00:14:56.752 --> 00:14:58.174 I think the concept is great, 382 00:14:58.205 --> 00:14:58.892 but the challenge, 383 00:14:58.970 --> 00:15:00.908 where do we are starting to reach this target? 384 00:15:01.838 --> 00:15:22.981 changes a lot from one country to another and also from one smaller city to one bigger city for example paris is great in the diversity of spaces of uses of like being able to do things within within the closest of your home like having green spaces having services having public administration but 385 00:15:23.012 --> 00:15:24.387 when now i live in lila 386 00:15:24.938 --> 00:15:25.859 The situation is different. 387 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:29.003 I don't have a green space 15 minutes from my place walking. 388 00:15:29.042 --> 00:15:30.101 I have to take my bike. 389 00:15:30.265 --> 00:15:30.863 15 minutes. 390 00:15:30.945 --> 00:15:31.226 Okay, 391 00:15:31.445 --> 00:15:32.265 still 15 minutes, 392 00:15:32.324 --> 00:15:34.468 but it requires a bit more effort. 393 00:15:35.085 --> 00:15:36.632 So different sides of city, 394 00:15:36.749 --> 00:15:38.195 different types of resources, 395 00:15:38.648 --> 00:15:40.070 challenges where we are starting. 396 00:15:40.071 --> 00:15:41.601 The starting point is definitely different. 397 00:15:42.398 --> 00:15:44.554 And I think it also applies to energy poverty, 398 00:15:44.617 --> 00:15:45.460 energy transition, 399 00:15:46.038 --> 00:15:47.054 energy poverty. 400 00:15:47.757 --> 00:15:47.913 Yeah, 401 00:15:48.382 --> 00:15:49.695 that's a very nice loop. 402 00:15:50.085 --> 00:15:52.663 And I love that you live in Lille. 403 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:53.804 That's where I studied. 404 00:15:54.194 --> 00:15:57.294 And I saw the transformation at the beginning of the year 2000. 405 00:15:57.354 --> 00:16:00.356 And I haven't had the opportunity to come back in years, 406 00:16:00.454 --> 00:16:06.517 but I would love to see how it has evolved because there were a lot of actions being undertaken. 407 00:16:07.454 --> 00:16:09.118 I moved there when Lille became 408 00:16:10.017 --> 00:16:11.118 European Capital of Culture. 409 00:16:11.634 --> 00:16:16.259 And that was quite an interesting experiment for the city to reinvent itself. 410 00:16:16.274 --> 00:16:21.165 So I think that's also worth mentioning that there are really some cool initiatives. 411 00:16:21.662 --> 00:16:22.503 At European level, 412 00:16:22.583 --> 00:16:29.089 that really brings some new and fresh air into city planning. 413 00:16:29.714 --> 00:16:33.354 I think it's also something that we may tend to forget that, 414 00:16:33.557 --> 00:16:33.815 you know, 415 00:16:33.893 --> 00:16:38.745 this kind of people gathering to help change things. 416 00:16:39.042 --> 00:16:39.464 That's very, 417 00:16:39.557 --> 00:16:40.136 very inspiring. 418 00:16:40.167 --> 00:16:47.104 So that's also exactly what you've been doing with the project Power Up that we just mentioned at the beginning of the podcast. 419 00:16:47.105 --> 00:16:49.026 So it's a project. 420 00:16:49.238 --> 00:16:58.548 where you have been working with five pilot cities to test some models to help people in energy poverty. 421 00:16:59.166 --> 00:17:03.111 You've been developing social energy players, 422 00:17:03.212 --> 00:17:07.470 so different forms of energy enablers. 423 00:17:08.298 --> 00:17:12.064 So can you tell us more about PowerUp and what came out of it? 424 00:17:12.236 --> 00:17:13.127 Yeah, 425 00:17:13.298 --> 00:17:16.377 so I think the introduction is great. 426 00:17:16.408 --> 00:17:18.814 I think just to summarize what PowerUp is, 427 00:17:19.274 --> 00:17:26.201 The idea of the project was really to bring this social dimension to everything that's energy business today. 428 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:26.803 So today, 429 00:17:26.963 --> 00:17:29.080 when you produce energy the standard way, 430 00:17:29.362 --> 00:17:30.385 you are an energy producer, 431 00:17:30.424 --> 00:17:31.385 you have the distributor. 432 00:17:31.408 --> 00:17:36.385 So you are just giving us services and people can subscribe to your service and get energy from you. 433 00:17:37.197 --> 00:17:41.197 And then we just forget that thousands and thousands of people today in Europe, 434 00:17:41.572 --> 00:17:46.354 they're not able to really use the energy that they need to meet their energy needs. 435 00:17:46.385 --> 00:17:47.026 So they are 436 00:17:47.538 --> 00:17:50.680 They need to reduce their consumption because they can't pay. 437 00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:57.669 So they're going to heat less their homes or to cool less their homes during summer as well, 438 00:17:58.145 --> 00:18:01.950 or to limit their appliances used at their place for cooking, 439 00:18:02.012 --> 00:18:02.716 for lighting. 440 00:18:02.833 --> 00:18:06.911 And this impacts the life and health of people in a very strong way. 441 00:18:07.458 --> 00:18:11.020 These people are not you and me and probably not the people listening to the podcast, 442 00:18:11.083 --> 00:18:11.239 maybe, 443 00:18:11.364 --> 00:18:11.645 yes, 444 00:18:11.739 --> 00:18:14.348 but they are a specific... 445 00:18:15.005 --> 00:18:15.239 Bye. 446 00:18:15.378 --> 00:18:17.640 types of people that are facing these vulnerabilities. 447 00:18:17.820 --> 00:18:18.421 This population, 448 00:18:18.441 --> 00:18:19.724 they change over time. 449 00:18:20.501 --> 00:18:21.345 And so, 450 00:18:21.384 --> 00:18:21.622 yeah, 451 00:18:21.623 --> 00:18:29.833 so we need different types of easiness and strategies to bring this population that's facing vulnerabilities to the energy transition. 452 00:18:29.896 --> 00:18:30.208 Today, 453 00:18:30.396 --> 00:18:32.349 Europe's trying to do an energy transition, 454 00:18:32.412 --> 00:18:35.365 but this energy transition is not happening for everyone. 455 00:18:35.458 --> 00:18:36.974 So myself, 456 00:18:37.021 --> 00:18:40.521 I can pay an energy provider that's doing sustainable energy, 457 00:18:41.208 --> 00:18:43.958 that's like energy Cooperative that's producing energy locally. 458 00:18:44.470 --> 00:18:47.073 But these people that are facing an energy vulnerability, 459 00:18:47.192 --> 00:18:50.077 they actually don't manage to use the energy they need. 460 00:18:50.374 --> 00:18:55.359 So thinking about using a sustainable energy provider, 461 00:18:55.780 --> 00:18:57.405 shifting for renewables, 462 00:18:57.546 --> 00:18:59.023 it's not on their priority. 463 00:18:59.265 --> 00:19:00.671 It's not on their list, 464 00:19:00.765 --> 00:19:01.671 not on their minds. 465 00:19:02.312 --> 00:19:08.827 So a lot of power up mindset was how to design a business that make it possible, 466 00:19:08.874 --> 00:19:09.859 that provides equity, 467 00:19:10.015 --> 00:19:12.624 provide everything that these vulnerable people need. 468 00:19:13.054 --> 00:19:14.976 to be able to take part in the transition. 469 00:19:15.176 --> 00:19:19.041 Like taking part in the transition should not be a burden for them. 470 00:19:19.420 --> 00:19:20.522 So it should be natural. 471 00:19:20.643 --> 00:19:21.123 It should be, 472 00:19:21.701 --> 00:19:21.983 okay, 473 00:19:21.984 --> 00:19:22.983 it's just there, 474 00:19:23.084 --> 00:19:23.608 a choice. 475 00:19:23.609 --> 00:19:25.084 I can jump in the transition as well. 476 00:19:25.670 --> 00:19:35.920 So this was a lot what we were trying with these different cities across Europe with different models and schemes to see how we can do this, 477 00:19:35.951 --> 00:19:36.920 how it could work, 478 00:19:36.998 --> 00:19:41.983 how it could be tailored to each locality and how it could also take shape. 479 00:19:42.634 --> 00:19:43.915 in a concrete example. 480 00:19:44.716 --> 00:19:44.876 Yeah, 481 00:19:45.136 --> 00:19:50.518 and the cities had different starting points and they were located in different 482 00:19:50.964 --> 00:19:51.886 EU countries. 483 00:19:52.581 --> 00:19:57.065 So essentially the idea was to make the energy transition, 484 00:19:57.550 --> 00:20:05.917 like using energy locally produced and something as evident as going to, 485 00:20:06.558 --> 00:20:06.933 let's say, 486 00:20:07.651 --> 00:20:08.667 the local shop. 487 00:20:08.930 --> 00:20:09.791 or the local school. 488 00:20:09.971 --> 00:20:12.653 So something like the natural choice for people, 489 00:20:13.155 --> 00:20:13.374 right? 490 00:20:14.053 --> 00:20:15.796 And these places where, 491 00:20:16.276 --> 00:20:17.600 please correct me if I'm mistaken, 492 00:20:17.882 --> 00:20:19.663 but the one place in Belgium, 493 00:20:20.663 --> 00:20:22.483 one in Ausha. 494 00:20:23.303 --> 00:20:23.803 In Ausha, 495 00:20:23.882 --> 00:20:24.007 yeah. 496 00:20:24.543 --> 00:20:24.683 Yeah, 497 00:20:24.983 --> 00:20:26.484 there was also one in Spain, 498 00:20:26.724 --> 00:20:27.467 in Valencia, 499 00:20:28.166 --> 00:20:30.490 and the other two, 500 00:20:31.408 --> 00:20:31.810 you know, 501 00:20:31.869 --> 00:20:32.650 you have to tell them. 502 00:20:33.111 --> 00:20:33.314 Plus, 503 00:20:33.369 --> 00:20:35.494 there were also two that were learning from it. 504 00:20:36.236 --> 00:20:36.377 Yeah, 505 00:20:36.697 --> 00:20:37.736 so as you said, 506 00:20:37.760 --> 00:20:39.041 we had one in Belgium, 507 00:20:39.080 --> 00:20:39.619 that's Ziclo, 508 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:40.916 one in Czechia, 509 00:20:40.994 --> 00:20:41.947 that's Rosnoff, 510 00:20:42.338 --> 00:20:42.916 one in Spain, 511 00:20:42.978 --> 00:20:43.760 that's Valencia. 512 00:20:44.369 --> 00:20:45.525 Then we had Italy, 513 00:20:45.541 --> 00:20:47.291 the southern area of Italy, 514 00:20:47.292 --> 00:20:48.525 in the Campania area. 515 00:20:49.041 --> 00:20:49.963 and then we had, 516 00:20:50.431 --> 00:20:50.650 yeah, 517 00:20:50.651 --> 00:20:54.056 it was Naples and then we had one in... 518 00:20:54.879 --> 00:21:00.006 Netherlands in Ireland that didn't work and finally the project then became an observer. 519 00:21:00.623 --> 00:21:04.225 And we had another one that it was in North Macedonia. 520 00:21:04.686 --> 00:21:05.772 At the start of the project, 521 00:21:05.787 --> 00:21:08.194 we also had tried to do a pilot there in Iscopia, 522 00:21:08.209 --> 00:21:09.491 the capital of North Macedonia. 523 00:21:09.631 --> 00:21:12.069 It also didn't work at all and became an observer, 524 00:21:12.100 --> 00:21:12.819 a replicator. 525 00:21:12.834 --> 00:21:13.756 So Netherlands and 526 00:21:14.334 --> 00:21:16.256 North Macedonia are more replicators, 527 00:21:16.303 --> 00:21:18.209 observers than pilots. 528 00:21:18.225 --> 00:21:23.912 Then we had real power pilots that went over the full way and the 529 00:21:24.699 --> 00:21:27.163 arrive at Judail with something on the ground. 530 00:21:27.942 --> 00:21:28.284 Yeah, 531 00:21:28.303 --> 00:21:31.104 and they did vastly different projects. 532 00:21:31.764 --> 00:21:37.796 I found what your colleagues did in Valencia absolutely impressive, 533 00:21:38.335 --> 00:21:40.592 not only because of the scale, 534 00:21:41.389 --> 00:21:46.577 but because of what they managed to implement, 535 00:21:46.655 --> 00:21:46.936 right? 536 00:21:47.139 --> 00:21:49.780 They used some of the most, 537 00:21:50.030 --> 00:21:50.358 let's say, 538 00:21:51.030 --> 00:21:53.202 collective and personal space. 539 00:21:53.415 --> 00:21:56.578 of the city to then benefit more people. 540 00:21:58.281 --> 00:21:58.519 Yeah, 541 00:21:58.558 --> 00:21:59.640 that's amazing. 542 00:21:59.703 --> 00:22:01.664 I can give a bit more of an example. 543 00:22:01.679 --> 00:22:05.062 I think it links a lot with what we were talking about synergies before. 544 00:22:05.164 --> 00:22:08.726 So it's really existing infrastructure that's there, 545 00:22:08.929 --> 00:22:09.687 not being used. 546 00:22:09.765 --> 00:22:09.968 Like, 547 00:22:10.234 --> 00:22:10.828 it's being used. 548 00:22:10.890 --> 00:22:12.953 So to break the mystery, 549 00:22:13.172 --> 00:22:14.922 they installed PVs in cemeteries. 550 00:22:15.109 --> 00:22:22.531 So they had a very specific structure of cemeteries with some buildings where you put the ashes and the remains of... 551 00:22:23.287 --> 00:22:41.151 of people that left us and these buildings they have a roof that's free it's not being used and the sun is hitting there all the time every day in valencia it's very sunny so the potential was high so the municipality decided to install pvs in 552 00:22:41.167 --> 00:22:47.292 these roofs and to use this the energy produced to cover the need some 553 00:22:47.643 --> 00:23:07.516 part of the energy needs of the municipality of municipal buildings but uh one share specific share of this energy is going directly to people in facing energy vulnerabilities so they don't need to pay their energy bill anymore that they need to apply to receive these uh but much more structural than giving only an 554 00:23:07.610 --> 00:23:16.985 energy check or a voucher for paying the energy something that's a punctual ad they enter in the system they enter in a support system that they they're going to benefit for the... 555 00:23:17.607 --> 00:23:32.601 the longer that they need to be to receive this support and it's easier as possible for them so the social like the the social services work hands-to-hands to the energy services of the municipality to be able to identify the households that are in need to 556 00:23:32.844 --> 00:23:46.469 recruit them to explain them how it will uh work to build the trust that's needed as well uh and to bring them in as easiest as possible for them and once they are in they are just benefiting from 557 00:23:47.163 --> 00:24:06.640 renewable energy from an asset that was there uh that was there waiting for uh for a better use yeah that's that's really amazing because they are that's like the municipality really had to convince the family to to do this kind of work because it's it's like of course it's the most personal and 558 00:24:06.718 --> 00:24:14.609 the most uh you have to do it with so much so much respect but they they managed to do it and I really find it inspiring. 559 00:24:14.828 --> 00:24:15.968 You don't need like to 560 00:24:16.483 --> 00:24:17.624 to cover lands. 561 00:24:17.763 --> 00:24:19.627 You don't need to change anything, 562 00:24:19.967 --> 00:24:21.088 make anything complicated. 563 00:24:21.107 --> 00:24:24.392 You don't need to displace people or their remains. 564 00:24:24.869 --> 00:24:25.314 Of course, 565 00:24:25.869 --> 00:24:28.150 you make the most of what is already there. 566 00:24:28.314 --> 00:24:32.377 And that is exactly what sustainability should be about. 567 00:24:33.213 --> 00:24:36.181 The other projects were a little different, 568 00:24:36.322 --> 00:24:37.931 but also very successful. 569 00:24:39.150 --> 00:24:39.869 Let's move on to, 570 00:24:40.181 --> 00:24:40.572 I don't know, 571 00:24:41.228 --> 00:24:41.900 Northern Europe. 572 00:24:42.025 --> 00:24:43.775 Let's go to Belgium. 573 00:24:44.867 --> 00:24:45.007 Yeah, 574 00:24:45.027 --> 00:24:50.731 so Belgium was a very particular case because we were working in Niclo, 575 00:24:51.051 --> 00:24:53.856 that's a city in the Flemish area of Belgium. 576 00:24:54.395 --> 00:24:58.262 And the city they had already for a while been engaged in the renewable transition. 577 00:24:58.317 --> 00:25:03.278 And they had bought shares of a wind turbine from an energy cooperative, 578 00:25:03.309 --> 00:25:04.028 from EcoPower. 579 00:25:05.153 --> 00:25:13.215 And the municipality has been engaged in interesting about like how to tackle energy poverty in a more structural and systemic way than like just with support, 580 00:25:13.278 --> 00:25:13.794 punctual support. 581 00:25:13.795 --> 00:25:14.892 support for the households. 582 00:25:15.534 --> 00:25:18.580 And then their scheme was to create... 583 00:25:19.091 --> 00:25:26.820 a rolling fund to be able to the households to join the energy cooperative that was producing energy with this wind turbine, 584 00:25:27.422 --> 00:25:30.344 benefit from the energy without having to pay in advance. 585 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:36.687 Because to enter an energy cooperative and benefit from their tariffs and from the green energy production, 586 00:25:37.734 --> 00:25:38.609 there is an energy fee. 587 00:25:38.765 --> 00:25:39.375 If I'm not wrong, 588 00:25:39.406 --> 00:25:41.687 for EcoPower it was 250 euros. 589 00:25:42.156 --> 00:25:42.781 Yeah, 590 00:25:42.828 --> 00:25:44.890 it can be very high for certain people. 591 00:25:44.891 --> 00:25:45.015 Yeah, 592 00:25:45.312 --> 00:25:45.734 exactly. 593 00:25:45.797 --> 00:25:46.515 for like, 594 00:25:46.844 --> 00:25:48.812 I always like to remind that it's not 595 00:25:48.867 --> 00:25:49.348 me and you. 596 00:25:50.368 --> 00:25:51.970 Sometimes I give conferences and people say, 597 00:25:52.050 --> 00:25:52.210 ah, 598 00:25:52.370 --> 00:25:53.112 yeah, 599 00:25:53.132 --> 00:25:54.311 it's €250, 600 00:25:54.312 --> 00:25:54.753 I can pay. 601 00:25:54.854 --> 00:25:55.112 But yeah, 602 00:25:55.155 --> 00:25:55.975 it's not me and you. 603 00:25:58.538 --> 00:26:02.358 So then what happens is that the municipality, 604 00:26:02.921 --> 00:26:05.108 as they have shares of this wind turbine, 605 00:26:05.171 --> 00:26:07.827 they allocate the share that they have to this household. 606 00:26:08.983 --> 00:26:09.811 This household, 607 00:26:10.296 --> 00:26:13.952 they start to benefit from the energy from the energy cooperative and they pay, 608 00:26:14.077 --> 00:26:18.171 they repay this prepayment the municipality made for them every month. 609 00:26:18.455 --> 00:26:19.375 over a long period. 610 00:26:19.455 --> 00:26:20.996 So they pay three euros per month. 611 00:26:21.096 --> 00:26:22.736 That's integrated in their energy bill. 612 00:26:23.397 --> 00:26:28.537 Three euros per month goes back to the municipality to repay the prepayment that was done by the municipality. 613 00:26:28.740 --> 00:26:30.717 Once they finish this payment, 614 00:26:30.818 --> 00:26:33.897 they are owners of their share in the energy community. 615 00:26:33.936 --> 00:26:35.404 They're an energy cooperative. 616 00:26:35.405 --> 00:26:36.733 They remain the cooperative. 617 00:26:37.139 --> 00:26:43.826 And the municipality can use this money again to fund another household that can integrate the scheme again. 618 00:26:44.842 --> 00:26:45.576 So it's a very... 619 00:26:46.319 --> 00:27:08.324 innovative way that's also mixed like social innovation with financial innovation because you need to create this make this rolling fund work but also have been working quite well even if sometimes you have problems in the middle like the energy price of the the cooperative fluctuate a bit more so now it's a bit more expensive than the other providers but 620 00:27:08.918 --> 00:27:15.715 i think it's also the challenge of doing innovation the context change you need to adapt your solution need to be agile so they 621 00:27:16.059 --> 00:27:20.145 The city and the cooperative now are looking to install plug-in 622 00:27:20.543 --> 00:27:22.286 PV systems in the balcony. 623 00:27:22.387 --> 00:27:23.465 So the households, 624 00:27:23.466 --> 00:27:28.387 they have also self-production of solar energy and then they can bridge the gap, 625 00:27:28.668 --> 00:27:35.481 the difference gaps of solution that they're going to be benefiting will be the least expensive in the market for them. 626 00:27:35.637 --> 00:27:38.778 So they're going to be paying even less than the social tariffs usually. 627 00:27:39.481 --> 00:27:39.856 Yeah, 628 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:40.981 that's very interesting. 629 00:27:41.762 --> 00:27:45.309 I don't know if we will have time to get into the other two. 630 00:27:45.563 --> 00:27:50.827 But the PowerPet site is packed with some really interesting, 631 00:27:51.991 --> 00:27:52.311 let's say, 632 00:27:52.549 --> 00:27:56.553 feedback on what happened and the various business model. 633 00:27:56.671 --> 00:27:58.975 It's really inspiring because it's extremely concrete, 634 00:27:59.077 --> 00:27:59.296 right? 635 00:27:59.358 --> 00:28:02.780 It's extremely like underground and very, 636 00:28:04.514 --> 00:28:11.827 you managed to build a team that was not afraid of saying certain things were extremely difficult. 637 00:28:12.405 --> 00:28:12.530 So 638 00:28:13.108 --> 00:28:13.608 I would like to... 639 00:28:14.439 --> 00:28:22.929 take a few minutes to reflect on the kind of lessons that you will take away from this power project, 640 00:28:23.468 --> 00:28:24.351 especially about, 641 00:28:24.828 --> 00:28:29.656 you said that certain projects had to withdraw from being pilots. 642 00:28:30.117 --> 00:28:36.859 So I would like to reflect on what it means actually for the energy sector and for you in particular. 643 00:28:37.758 --> 00:28:37.978 Yeah, 644 00:28:37.998 --> 00:28:38.239 sure. 645 00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:38.979 I think, 646 00:28:39.340 --> 00:28:39.900 except for me, 647 00:28:40.080 --> 00:28:41.863 and one lesson that I take back, 648 00:28:41.902 --> 00:28:46.570 it's also a bit more broader for every kind of innovation project. 649 00:28:46.648 --> 00:28:52.195 I think there is a very important point that you need to find a stakeholder that assumes the risk. 650 00:28:52.594 --> 00:28:53.234 In this kind of, 651 00:28:54.172 --> 00:28:55.250 there is always a risk. 652 00:28:56.172 --> 00:28:57.672 And it was a huge challenge for us. 653 00:28:58.297 --> 00:28:58.765 For example, 654 00:28:58.797 --> 00:28:59.312 there is, 655 00:28:59.453 --> 00:29:01.984 if we just go back to the example of Eco that I gave, 656 00:29:02.047 --> 00:29:06.953 there is a risk that the household will not pay the three euros that they are. 657 00:29:07.334 --> 00:29:11.558 expected to pay every month because they may have changed their situation, 658 00:29:11.620 --> 00:29:12.859 faced other vulnerabilities. 659 00:29:13.542 --> 00:29:14.441 And so if they don't pay, 660 00:29:14.460 --> 00:29:15.659 who assumes this risk? 661 00:29:16.261 --> 00:29:18.347 Probably the insurances are in place, 662 00:29:18.386 --> 00:29:21.105 they will not cover because they're very specific cases. 663 00:29:21.230 --> 00:29:22.909 And then there is a risk. 664 00:29:22.972 --> 00:29:33.542 And what we have been seeing that was the case that were more successful is usually a stakeholder that has of public interest, 665 00:29:33.698 --> 00:29:34.964 that covert risk. 666 00:29:35.494 --> 00:29:36.495 This risk is minor. 667 00:29:36.555 --> 00:29:39.239 Probably you can find solutions to cover this risk, 668 00:29:39.358 --> 00:29:41.278 but you need this political will, 669 00:29:41.481 --> 00:29:44.403 you need this political push to be able to cover this risk. 670 00:29:44.442 --> 00:29:45.622 So the local authorities, 671 00:29:45.623 --> 00:29:46.442 the municipalities, 672 00:29:46.567 --> 00:29:50.129 they are really important in 673 00:29:51.028 --> 00:29:56.622 Power Up to be able to cover this risk that a standard commercial actor will never cover. 674 00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:03.200 And the same thing when you talk about sustainability or anything that's transition-related. 675 00:30:04.122 --> 00:30:08.128 There are externalities and whenever you bring these, 676 00:30:08.769 --> 00:30:09.589 like the pollution, 677 00:30:09.608 --> 00:30:12.167 the impacts inside the economical systems, 678 00:30:12.589 --> 00:30:14.433 either they create costs or they create risks. 679 00:30:14.995 --> 00:30:21.105 So we need to deal with it and you need to really bring everyone around the table and discuss clearly, 680 00:30:21.198 --> 00:30:21.636 frontally, 681 00:30:22.542 --> 00:30:24.058 how we are going to address this risk. 682 00:30:24.355 --> 00:30:25.245 Can we assume it? 683 00:30:25.339 --> 00:30:28.901 Can we find mitigation solutions to this? 684 00:30:29.089 --> 00:30:30.026 and and 685 00:30:30.366 --> 00:30:30.947 It's possible, 686 00:30:31.087 --> 00:30:35.333 but we cannot hide that there is no risk and that nobody will take care of this. 687 00:30:36.091 --> 00:30:36.513 And then 688 00:30:36.954 --> 00:30:42.700 I think from a more broad and energy vulnerability perspective, 689 00:30:44.177 --> 00:30:55.895 all of the team learned a lot about how challenging it is to engage with the people in vulnerable situations that are facing vulnerabilities because they have other priorities. 690 00:30:55.958 --> 00:30:58.192 They sometimes have a mistrust in the system, 691 00:30:58.255 --> 00:30:59.192 in the public system. 692 00:31:00.771 --> 00:31:05.534 Sometimes I think it's also important to think that sometimes they don't speak the language that we speak. 693 00:31:05.535 --> 00:31:07.940 They can be migrants, 694 00:31:07.941 --> 00:31:09.963 they can have low literacy. 695 00:31:10.784 --> 00:31:12.901 You need to adapt yourself a lot. 696 00:31:13.424 --> 00:31:16.253 Communication and engagement has to be something that's not, 697 00:31:16.659 --> 00:31:18.424 I'm communicating now at the start. 698 00:31:18.924 --> 00:31:22.346 It's something that you start at the beginning and you end after the end. 699 00:31:22.534 --> 00:31:24.768 You should keep doing it all the time. 700 00:31:25.253 --> 00:31:26.893 Because also they need to be informed. 701 00:31:27.514 --> 00:31:52.778 continuously if there is changing the schemes i think this the engagement the communication being closed building trust building relationships really really important for this uh type of of project and initiatives i find it especially interesting that you mentioned this because when working on the project myself i found the example of um Ausha and in italy really do let's say the 702 00:31:53.338 --> 00:32:00.844 The most interesting and complex when it was really about the timing of the communication and the building trust, 703 00:32:00.906 --> 00:32:01.024 etc. 704 00:32:01.946 --> 00:32:02.867 So in a nutshell, 705 00:32:04.008 --> 00:32:04.711 in Campania, 706 00:32:06.414 --> 00:32:08.672 it's one of the poorest regions in Italy. 707 00:32:08.735 --> 00:32:09.852 It's close to Naples. 708 00:32:10.602 --> 00:32:17.321 The idea was to reuse some of the material and the lands that were already there. 709 00:32:17.586 --> 00:32:21.024 There was even a solar power plant that had never been plugged, 710 00:32:21.086 --> 00:32:21.321 right? 711 00:32:23.516 --> 00:32:23.877 But still, 712 00:32:23.955 --> 00:32:29.100 people didn't really show up when there was the kind of presentation of the project. 713 00:32:30.318 --> 00:32:33.889 And something equivalent happened in Chechnya, 714 00:32:33.967 --> 00:32:36.225 because not so equivalent. 715 00:32:36.287 --> 00:32:37.928 But yeah, 716 00:32:38.053 --> 00:32:46.443 the team out there decided to communicate where people exactly were and not like trying to reinvent the wheel. 717 00:32:46.553 --> 00:32:50.147 And they joined some festival and things like that to make sure that people were. 718 00:32:50.398 --> 00:32:51.399 hearing about the project. 719 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:53.341 So I found it really interesting that, 720 00:32:53.742 --> 00:32:53.982 you know, 721 00:32:54.261 --> 00:33:00.326 they were facing the same kind of problem and they had to be very creative with the solutions. 722 00:33:01.052 --> 00:33:01.209 Yeah, 723 00:33:01.310 --> 00:33:01.849 definitely. 724 00:33:01.912 --> 00:33:04.256 I think those are good examples. 725 00:33:04.257 --> 00:33:08.771 We also face this challenge of sometimes you need to communicate, 726 00:33:08.772 --> 00:33:09.693 you need to engage, 727 00:33:10.099 --> 00:33:11.506 but yeah, 728 00:33:11.662 --> 00:33:14.474 you cannot use the single shot that you have. 729 00:33:14.646 --> 00:33:16.677 Like if your model is not stable enough, 730 00:33:17.584 --> 00:33:19.365 you cannot share something that's not 731 00:33:19.935 --> 00:33:21.216 very clear yet for them. 732 00:33:21.296 --> 00:33:23.899 So then you have to be creative in the way you engage. 733 00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:25.559 The engagement needs to take place. 734 00:33:25.583 --> 00:33:26.321 So in Czechia, 735 00:33:26.360 --> 00:33:26.801 for example, 736 00:33:26.821 --> 00:33:29.583 they really attended their day festival. 737 00:33:30.106 --> 00:33:31.426 They talked with households. 738 00:33:31.887 --> 00:33:36.239 They have been promoting also other energy poverty mitigation actions. 739 00:33:36.286 --> 00:33:36.926 Also in Valencia, 740 00:33:36.973 --> 00:33:37.989 they did a great work. 741 00:33:38.411 --> 00:33:41.301 So sometimes they were engaging with the households to talk about energy, 742 00:33:41.333 --> 00:33:43.723 but like distributing energy efficiency kits, 743 00:33:44.286 --> 00:33:45.364 doing energy audits, 744 00:33:45.395 --> 00:33:46.520 going to the households. 745 00:33:47.067 --> 00:33:48.083 Sometimes the engagement 746 00:33:48.451 --> 00:33:49.272 needs to take place, 747 00:33:49.312 --> 00:33:51.475 but not really to talk about the innovation part, 748 00:33:51.674 --> 00:33:53.417 to talk about the basics still. 749 00:33:53.698 --> 00:34:00.061 And then you build trust slowly up to the moment when you are ready to launch the model that you are going to test, 750 00:34:00.085 --> 00:34:00.663 the pilot, 751 00:34:00.702 --> 00:34:02.647 and then everyone is more or less prepared. 752 00:34:03.303 --> 00:34:07.108 It's very much about what the role of a city is in building trust, 753 00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:10.030 because trust is something very systemic. 754 00:34:10.249 --> 00:34:14.124 It's not like a one-shot communication campaign that will bring the trust, 755 00:34:14.155 --> 00:34:16.764 but it's more like the repetition that you build. 756 00:34:17.179 --> 00:34:18.721 over time by showing up, 757 00:34:18.741 --> 00:34:19.642 by being present. 758 00:34:19.722 --> 00:34:30.712 And that was really also interesting to see how much links there were between the different municipal services to reach out to the people as well. 759 00:34:30.713 --> 00:34:33.673 And that's exactly what you mentioned at the beginning, 760 00:34:33.751 --> 00:34:43.079 that the fact that whatever happens in cities has to be multidisciplinary and engage people with different viewpoints to find solutions that are... 761 00:34:43.531 --> 00:35:02.435 sustainable and that's uh that benefits people in the long run yeah sure i just one example came to my mind that's a metaphor completely out of my crazy brain i have the feeling that engagement and also all these pilot innovation projects is like doing broderie uh you 762 00:35:02.451 --> 00:35:12.639 do a stitch here you do a stitch there with it here with this there and you keep going and just at the end you're you're going to have the full picture and like your solution will look like something. 763 00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:14.581 But the smallest stitches you do, 764 00:35:14.860 --> 00:35:16.583 like the engagement that you do here, 765 00:35:16.843 --> 00:35:18.825 also not only engagement with the citizens, 766 00:35:18.864 --> 00:35:20.524 but also with the different stakeholders, 767 00:35:20.567 --> 00:35:21.946 with your social services, 768 00:35:22.024 --> 00:35:23.368 with the energy services, 769 00:35:24.329 --> 00:35:25.595 all these small connections, 770 00:35:25.649 --> 00:35:27.470 sometimes they take time. 771 00:35:27.774 --> 00:35:30.110 They take a little bit tired about it, 772 00:35:30.235 --> 00:35:36.063 but then you are going to see that it composes the full picture and that small contributions make it work. 773 00:35:36.907 --> 00:35:37.470 I love it. 774 00:35:37.626 --> 00:35:38.438 I really love it. 775 00:35:39.626 --> 00:35:42.485 Because I wanted to ask you if you had one lever. 776 00:35:42.963 --> 00:35:43.504 a rule, 777 00:35:43.544 --> 00:35:45.565 a funding condition or a mindset, 778 00:35:46.507 --> 00:35:54.192 or maybe a shift to make this kind of social energy players and this kind of actions and projects mainstream in Europe. 779 00:35:54.317 --> 00:35:55.575 But now you just said it, 780 00:35:55.637 --> 00:35:57.497 it would be like seeing it as embroidery. 781 00:35:58.255 --> 00:35:58.520 Yeah, 782 00:35:58.700 --> 00:35:59.700 see it as embroidery. 783 00:36:00.200 --> 00:36:00.856 Go slow, 784 00:36:00.934 --> 00:36:01.669 step by step, 785 00:36:01.981 --> 00:36:04.903 and don't give up because all the pilots, 786 00:36:04.950 --> 00:36:05.966 all this innovation, 787 00:36:06.794 --> 00:36:08.622 usually we are working in the gray zone. 788 00:36:08.903 --> 00:36:10.404 of regulations, 789 00:36:10.644 --> 00:36:11.523 moving sands, 790 00:36:11.603 --> 00:36:12.564 regulations changed. 791 00:36:12.644 --> 00:36:15.966 Like now our pilots regulations changed at least three times in the middle. 792 00:36:16.943 --> 00:36:17.365 Financial, 793 00:36:18.044 --> 00:36:20.005 economical conditions changed. 794 00:36:20.006 --> 00:36:21.005 We also had like 795 00:36:21.466 --> 00:36:22.302 COVID crisis, 796 00:36:22.349 --> 00:36:23.607 energy crisis in the middle. 797 00:36:24.044 --> 00:36:27.107 So you need to keep going also to be flexible. 798 00:36:27.872 --> 00:36:31.622 Like usually you have a plan and having a plan is good, 799 00:36:31.701 --> 00:36:31.872 but... 800 00:36:32.151 --> 00:36:47.185 destroying your plan and redoing your plan is also good you know so you need flexibility to do innovation to do yeah to integrate these these changes in in the in the green transition you need to have a plan but a flexible mindset to be able to to 801 00:36:47.310 --> 00:37:01.185 deal with everything that's changing violence changing so everything's changing all the time so yeah it's important quite important that's great thank you so much eduardo it's been uh so uh interesting and insightful and i will recommend our 802 00:37:01.711 --> 00:37:24.720 listeners and viewers to check the social energy players website so it's a power project but it's called social energy players because if they want to learn more about the various pilot projects i have worked on it the full disclaimer and it's been really super interesting like i've really loved talked talking with the various project managers 803 00:37:24.767 --> 00:37:30.033 like working with eduardo and there are so many lessons about... 804 00:37:30.867 --> 00:37:31.888 how to build trust, 805 00:37:32.048 --> 00:37:33.209 how to stay humble, 806 00:37:33.389 --> 00:37:35.272 but also take pride in collective work. 807 00:37:35.854 --> 00:37:36.452 And yeah, 808 00:37:36.514 --> 00:37:42.362 about this kind of extremely agile mindset that is not only for, 809 00:37:43.135 --> 00:37:43.557 let's say, 810 00:37:43.620 --> 00:37:46.581 the engineers planning some technical solutions, 811 00:37:46.620 --> 00:37:49.370 but it's also for people who innovate at the social level. 812 00:37:49.510 --> 00:37:50.854 So thank you, 813 00:37:51.120 --> 00:37:51.541 Eduardo. 814 00:37:51.651 --> 00:37:55.495 Would you like to add a couple of things about PowerApp or what it will become? 815 00:37:56.354 --> 00:37:56.510 Yeah, 816 00:37:56.588 --> 00:37:56.776 sure, 817 00:37:56.777 --> 00:37:56.885 sure. 818 00:37:56.995 --> 00:37:57.479 Thanks a lot, 819 00:37:58.338 --> 00:38:00.041 It was a really pleasure also to... 820 00:38:00.059 --> 00:38:02.399 collaborate with you in this process. 821 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:02.520 So, 822 00:38:02.879 --> 00:38:03.040 yeah, 823 00:38:03.041 --> 00:38:05.622 Power Up is ending now in 15 days. 824 00:38:06.102 --> 00:38:06.622 It's our end, 825 00:38:06.661 --> 00:38:08.379 but it's not the end of our pilots. 826 00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:12.723 It's not the end of the work Energy Cities do on energy poverty as well. 827 00:38:13.262 --> 00:38:16.465 So take a look on all the materials that have been produced. 828 00:38:16.543 --> 00:38:19.418 The final brochure summarizes quite well what we have been doing. 829 00:38:19.700 --> 00:38:20.340 It's great. 830 00:38:21.106 --> 00:38:21.481 And also, 831 00:38:21.856 --> 00:38:22.903 if you want to know more, 832 00:38:23.043 --> 00:38:25.887 don't hesitate to reach out to the pilots themselves. 833 00:38:25.918 --> 00:38:28.747 They are the real heroes was up 834 00:38:28.827 --> 00:38:37.810 this history actually so to the different cities uh whenever you should want the context i can put you in context so uh just reach out and uh and see because 835 00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:39.461 It was the kickoff for them. 836 00:38:39.862 --> 00:38:46.689 It was they started five years starting something and now they're going to run these things that we work together by themselves. 837 00:38:47.189 --> 00:38:47.571 But yeah, 838 00:38:47.572 --> 00:38:52.251 I'm sure that they are very nice steps coming forward. 839 00:38:52.673 --> 00:38:54.798 And then on a more personal note, 840 00:38:55.814 --> 00:38:56.095 I think 841 00:38:56.470 --> 00:38:57.282 I discussed with you, 842 00:38:57.283 --> 00:38:57.751 but I have, 843 00:38:58.017 --> 00:39:01.564 I post this kind of crazy metaphors like the embroidery one, 844 00:39:01.798 --> 00:39:05.173 a sub stack channel that's called Modern Human City. 845 00:39:05.220 --> 00:39:06.251 So whenever if you... 846 00:39:06.720 --> 00:39:08.502 If people are interested in taking a look, 847 00:39:08.721 --> 00:39:16.506 don't hesitate to look on my social media for more crazed metaphors and broader and philosophical reflections. 848 00:39:17.053 --> 00:39:17.194 Yeah, 849 00:39:17.287 --> 00:39:19.272 but I will keep the embroidery one. 850 00:39:20.092 --> 00:39:20.717 Yeah. 851 00:39:20.718 --> 00:39:22.616 It might become even the title of this episode. 852 00:39:22.617 --> 00:39:23.178 So thank you, 853 00:39:23.241 --> 00:39:24.194 Stavros and Pavel. 854 00:39:24.678 --> 00:39:25.241 Thank you. 855 00:39:25.412 --> 00:39:25.912 Have a great day. 856 00:39:25.913 --> 00:39:26.303 Thank you very much. 857 00:39:26.304 --> 00:39:31.678 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. 858 00:39:31.948 --> 00:39:39.836 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. 859 00:39:40.473 --> 00:39:41.379 I'm Maureen Cornelis, 860 00:39:41.481 --> 00:39:43.137 your host from Policy Consultancy, 861 00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:44.278 Next Energy Consumer, 862 00:39:44.660 --> 00:39:48.098 and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, 863 00:39:48.504 --> 00:39:50.629 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. 864 00:39:51.332 --> 00:39:52.567 Since 2021, 865 00:39:52.754 --> 00:39:54.223 we've shared countless stories, 866 00:39:54.364 --> 00:39:54.864 insights, 867 00:39:54.895 --> 00:39:58.035 and ideas over more than 40 episodes. 868 00:39:58.408 --> 00:40:01.571 And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. 869 00:40:02.272 --> 00:40:06.559 If you enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, 870 00:40:06.934 --> 00:40:08.559 why not support us on Patreon? 871 00:40:09.160 --> 00:40:12.465 Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. 872 00:40:12.965 --> 00:40:14.770 Check out the show notes for the link. 873 00:40:15.457 --> 00:40:15.879 And hey, 874 00:40:16.348 --> 00:40:22.004 if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, 875 00:40:22.504 --> 00:40:25.395 we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. 876 00:40:25.828 --> 00:40:31.934 It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. 877 00:40:32.856 --> 00:40:34.278 Shout out to the fantastic 878 00:40:34.638 --> 00:40:40.161 Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, 879 00:40:40.520 --> 00:40:42.958 making every episode a joy to listen to. 880 00:40:43.864 --> 00:40:44.880 If you haven't already, 881 00:40:45.130 --> 00:40:48.583 make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. 882 00:40:49.067 --> 00:40:52.552 And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, 883 00:40:52.927 --> 00:40:54.536 we'd love for you to spread the word. 884 00:40:54.964 --> 00:40:59.183 It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. 885 00:40:59.664 --> 00:41:00.984 Sharing is caring. 886 00:41:01.527 --> 00:41:06.683 Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and updated on all things energetic. 887 00:41:07.004 --> 00:41:08.886 Thanks once again for lending your ears. 888 00:41:09.050 --> 00:41:09.785 Until next time.