WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.912 --> 00:00:04.133 Hello! 2 00:00:04.754 --> 00:00:06.137 Passionate about sustainability, 3 00:00:06.278 --> 00:00:07.140 energy and climate? 4 00:00:07.701 --> 00:00:08.583 You're in the right place. 5 00:00:08.984 --> 00:00:09.988 Welcome to Energetic. 6 00:00:10.570 --> 00:00:11.454 I'm Marine Cornelis, 7 00:00:11.775 --> 00:00:18.501 and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen. 8 00:00:18.561 --> 00:00:20.368 They may be activists, 9 00:00:20.609 --> 00:00:21.231 scientists, 10 00:00:21.592 --> 00:00:24.784 policy makers or other enthusiasts just like you. 11 00:00:25.507 --> 00:00:31.444 Let the life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet. 12 00:00:35.037 --> 00:00:41.476 Welcome to the final episode of our special series on energy citizenship brought to you by the Energy Prospects Project. 13 00:00:42.136 --> 00:00:43.079 Over the past episodes, 14 00:00:43.140 --> 00:00:48.176 we've delved into how citizen involvement is key to driving Europe's energy and climate transitions. 15 00:00:48.876 --> 00:00:49.197 Today, 16 00:00:49.317 --> 00:00:56.956 we conclude our series by summarizing the powerful insights we've gained and discussing that the future holds for energy citizenship around the Union. 17 00:00:57.717 --> 00:01:00.947 Join us as we reflect on the impactful stories and lessons learned, 18 00:01:01.087 --> 00:01:04.116 all made possible by the visionary support of Energy Prospects. 19 00:01:05.432 --> 00:01:08.060 Our third guest in this series is Karin Thalbeck, 20 00:01:08.141 --> 00:01:14.525 the dedicated research fellow in European energy policy at the Jacques Delors Institute and the Jacques Delors Energy Center. 21 00:01:15.348 --> 00:01:16.653 Since August 2021, 22 00:01:16.653 --> 00:01:22.983 Karin has focused on the evolution of the European Green Deal and how it actually delivers through the Energy Prospect project. 23 00:01:23.808 --> 00:01:29.147 Karin previously served at the Swedish Association of Local Authorities and Regions in Brussels. 24 00:01:29.699 --> 00:01:35.516 and contributed to an EU-funded energy efficiency project in the Swedish municipality's climate and energy division. 25 00:01:36.317 --> 00:01:40.936 Her broad experience spans significant collaborations in India and Sweden, 26 00:01:41.636 --> 00:01:44.256 promoting inclusive and sustainable local transitions. 27 00:01:44.736 --> 00:01:48.636 Join us as Karin discusses her dynamic role in driving forward the energy transition, 28 00:01:49.196 --> 00:01:51.796 underscored by her rich and multicultural insight. 29 00:01:52.316 --> 00:01:52.642 Karin, 30 00:01:52.682 --> 00:01:53.516 welcome to Energetic. 31 00:01:54.158 --> 00:01:54.782 Thank you so much, 32 00:01:54.862 --> 00:01:55.164 Marie. 33 00:01:55.386 --> 00:01:57.056 Thanks for the lovely introduction as well. 34 00:01:58.011 --> 00:01:58.794 Thank you so much, 35 00:01:58.834 --> 00:01:59.095 Karim. 36 00:01:59.175 --> 00:02:01.884 So can you share a bit about your, 37 00:02:02.345 --> 00:02:02.606 let's say, 38 00:02:02.626 --> 00:02:07.850 personal and professional journey that led you to your current role in the Energy Prospect project in Paris? 39 00:02:08.151 --> 00:02:08.391 I mean, 40 00:02:08.431 --> 00:02:10.417 you've lived in many different places in Europe. 41 00:02:10.958 --> 00:02:15.970 So why Paris and how did this energy project shape you? 42 00:02:17.056 --> 00:02:18.180 Thanks for your question. 43 00:02:18.421 --> 00:02:21.732 It's interesting because ahead of this episode I was thinking a little bit about that. 44 00:02:22.173 --> 00:02:25.683 And I think the job here at the Jack Delors Institute, 45 00:02:25.743 --> 00:02:28.712 and especially on this particular topic, 46 00:02:29.074 --> 00:02:32.611 so citizen involvement and engagement in the energy transition, 47 00:02:34.175 --> 00:02:41.712 sometimes you just have those moments where a lot of different paths that maybe have not made a lot of sense. 48 00:02:42.495 --> 00:02:49.960 in your mind because you haven't really had a plan but sometimes those paths align perfectly and I feel that was a little bit what happened when 49 00:02:50.441 --> 00:03:02.390 I found this job in Paris and was lucky enough to be selected to do it as well because as you said before kind of getting into the 50 00:03:02.731 --> 00:03:11.092 European bubble or the European policies come from a back of international development. 51 00:03:11.898 --> 00:03:26.551 a corporation but then again it's kind of the same topics but you have a different perspective so working kind of on local participatory sustainable 52 00:03:27.072 --> 00:03:38.622 development i did it for a little bit for a project in india i've also been very much engaged with a swedish ngo like the biggest environmental ngo we have in sweden you 53 00:03:38.831 --> 00:03:54.281 for many years also but there in the context of my hometown stockholm more unsustainable lifestyles yeah so it's interesting how you have sometimes sliding doors bringing to the to the place where you're at at and that's um 54 00:03:54.281 --> 00:04:07.108 i mean that's also really interesting that you brought the topic of india because in my field of work in my 15 years of experience that mostly at european level and more recently in in in africa and also in mexico and 55 00:04:07.642 --> 00:04:08.804 And through the podcast, 56 00:04:09.185 --> 00:04:11.809 I see it very clearly that we Europeans, 57 00:04:11.829 --> 00:04:17.940 we tend to take things for granted and we tend to kind of overlook what's happening in many different places. 58 00:04:18.100 --> 00:04:21.387 Whereas there is actually so much to learn and, 59 00:04:21.708 --> 00:04:21.948 you know, 60 00:04:22.129 --> 00:04:27.460 the various perspectives and solutions you get from other countries or other contexts. 61 00:04:27.820 --> 00:04:35.080 There is so much first to learn and so much nuance to also bring home and to kind of build other. 62 00:04:35.762 --> 00:04:56.724 related solutions right it's really we need this kind of forces creative forces coming from different experiences and from the various lighting doors that we have in front of us right yeah no that's for sure uh and i think that's interesting so you then more coming from the european background and i'm starting to dwell into the international for me was a little bit more well 63 00:04:56.744 --> 00:05:04.792 i had kind of the local engagement in my hometown and then i did my studies and i started working more within the so international development corporation and 64 00:05:05.353 --> 00:05:06.020 going abroad. 65 00:05:06.923 --> 00:05:07.957 And then for me, 66 00:05:08.865 --> 00:05:11.355 And I think this ties very nicely with the project also, 67 00:05:11.475 --> 00:05:12.580 because I think for me, 68 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:14.759 one of the main concerns working in that field. 69 00:05:14.860 --> 00:05:24.932 So even though I was working for an organization who were really trying to support organizations that already had projects up and going to not, 70 00:05:25.012 --> 00:05:25.353 you know, 71 00:05:25.494 --> 00:05:35.247 kind of trying to impose your vision or your way of doing things onto local communities that we do not know as well as us. 72 00:05:35.563 --> 00:05:54.803 you know the people actually growing up living working there etc it's since you're coming from across the world even though you're trying to do good there's always gonna be a bit of that you know imposing your vision and especially since you know it's tied to financing so these 73 00:05:55.484 --> 00:06:02.076 initiatives it's not always for the bad of course there's also a positive like exchange and um 74 00:06:03.085 --> 00:06:19.588 development and you know growth also but for me it was always something that I had a little bit of a hard time to maybe to fully accept these power dynamics also you know being the one coming from Europe then which 75 00:06:19.608 --> 00:06:32.841 is why I at least wanted to get more involved so to say in the so in the the transition as sustainability transition where I'm from so in Europe and here's what I said you 76 00:06:33.224 --> 00:06:37.460 about kind of these ties to the project that is very much the same. 77 00:06:37.640 --> 00:06:39.980 So I know that in the two previous episodes, 78 00:06:40.140 --> 00:06:43.580 also you talked to our researchers from Eastern Europe. 79 00:06:43.943 --> 00:06:46.220 And I also think that in these kinds of conversations, 80 00:06:46.481 --> 00:06:47.840 just on citizen engagement, 81 00:06:48.741 --> 00:06:52.460 we are very often very focused on Western Europe. 82 00:06:52.901 --> 00:06:53.980 And it's the same thing here. 83 00:06:53.1000 --> 00:06:55.640 And it's something that we've seen in our project, 84 00:06:55.760 --> 00:06:58.680 that these different types of citizen involvement and engagement, 85 00:06:59.100 --> 00:07:00.880 they are so like locally. 86 00:07:01.789 --> 00:07:01.930 Yeah, 87 00:07:02.010 --> 00:07:04.842 they're very contextually developed. 88 00:07:05.264 --> 00:07:09.383 They will take various expressions depending on where you are. 89 00:07:09.524 --> 00:07:13.722 Like you talked to my project colleagues who are more in a post-Soviet setting. 90 00:07:14.164 --> 00:07:18.081 Of course that energy citizenship there will develop in very different ways than, 91 00:07:18.121 --> 00:07:18.784 for example, 92 00:07:18.844 --> 00:07:20.638 here in France or where I'm from in Sweden. 93 00:07:21.364 --> 00:07:27.464 So I think also from my previous experiences working more with this international outlook. 94 00:07:28.284 --> 00:07:30.129 It's really something I'm bringing with me, 95 00:07:30.230 --> 00:07:33.520 this kind of context sensitivity and always, 96 00:07:33.640 --> 00:07:33.921 you know, 97 00:07:34.121 --> 00:07:41.555 listening to the people who are actually working and living their lives in these different contexts. 98 00:07:41.900 --> 00:07:51.799 And I think it's a nice output of our project also that we had a very vast geographical representation and I think it really enriched the process a lot. 99 00:07:52.629 --> 00:07:53.129 Yeah, 100 00:07:53.250 --> 00:07:56.432 that's really interesting that you're bringing this point in particular, 101 00:07:56.533 --> 00:08:04.440 because we can see that the challenges of global warming and climate change and the energy transition are... 102 00:08:05.257 --> 00:08:05.578 global, 103 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:08.892 but the solutions need to be tailored for the local level. 104 00:08:09.172 --> 00:08:09.433 And I mean, 105 00:08:09.775 --> 00:08:11.062 in the previous conversations, 106 00:08:11.082 --> 00:08:11.726 as you mentioned, 107 00:08:11.746 --> 00:08:14.557 we had a conversation first from Edina from Hungary, 108 00:08:14.958 --> 00:08:20.112 who was initially more into environmentalism and local groups. 109 00:08:20.172 --> 00:08:22.545 And we also talked about local agriculture, 110 00:08:23.068 --> 00:08:23.832 if you see what I mean. 111 00:08:24.400 --> 00:08:25.192 And then the following. 112 00:08:25.596 --> 00:08:41.263 episode so episode 51 was with Yanis from from Latvia and that was really interesting he brought the topic of you know nimbism not in my backyard in the Latvian context totally relate with what you said that it's really about tailoring the the 113 00:08:41.303 --> 00:08:45.612 big ideas into the very local context but also make sure that you 114 00:08:45.659 --> 00:08:51.656 the local solutions get a voice at a higher level and get an echo somehow. 115 00:08:51.877 --> 00:08:53.041 And in my view, 116 00:08:53.081 --> 00:08:57.216 it's also what people like us who are able to work in different contexts, 117 00:08:57.316 --> 00:08:59.403 in different multicultural, 118 00:08:59.483 --> 00:09:01.249 multidimensional projects, 119 00:09:01.289 --> 00:09:03.416 organizations and so on are able to bring. 120 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:05.344 There is no one-size-fits-all solution. 121 00:09:05.384 --> 00:09:09.436 There is no one single form of truth and of trust. 122 00:09:09.916 --> 00:09:14.876 It's very ingrained in different local successes and failures as well. 123 00:09:15.136 --> 00:09:16.759 And in particular, 124 00:09:17.300 --> 00:09:18.381 was there any, 125 00:09:18.622 --> 00:09:18.942 let's say, 126 00:09:19.083 --> 00:09:25.974 best practice that you noticed about some form of social acceptance of projects really throughout the Energy 127 00:09:26.335 --> 00:09:26.976 Prospect project? 128 00:09:28.011 --> 00:09:28.272 Yeah, 129 00:09:28.673 --> 00:09:32.164 I think some things that stood out a lot for me. 130 00:09:33.568 --> 00:09:34.111 So as you know, 131 00:09:34.372 --> 00:09:35.237 within the project, 132 00:09:35.317 --> 00:09:37.268 we have kind of done this. 133 00:09:37.723 --> 00:09:45.470 Big mapping of almost 600 different initiatives that contribute to the energy transition in different ways, 134 00:09:45.590 --> 00:09:50.534 like everything from initiatives that enable citizens in the private sphere, 135 00:09:50.714 --> 00:09:52.216 within organizations, 136 00:09:53.076 --> 00:09:55.518 like in the public sphere, 137 00:09:56.079 --> 00:09:57.260 in social movements, 138 00:09:57.340 --> 00:09:59.662 but then also within kind of citizen organizations. 139 00:10:01.127 --> 00:10:02.812 And this is where I'm coming from, 140 00:10:02.892 --> 00:10:05.722 some of the best practices that maybe stood out the most to me. 141 00:10:06.457 --> 00:10:11.794 are like when citizen-based organizations come together and form partnerships, 142 00:10:11.934 --> 00:10:12.458 for example, 143 00:10:12.499 --> 00:10:14.414 with public actors such as municipalities, 144 00:10:15.015 --> 00:10:18.014 but also different private actors that are active at the local level. 145 00:10:18.514 --> 00:10:21.454 So if we're talking about renewable energy projects, 146 00:10:21.775 --> 00:10:23.685 it would be developers, 147 00:10:23.745 --> 00:10:25.594 different types of investors, 148 00:10:26.474 --> 00:10:27.699 and also very much here, 149 00:10:27.760 --> 00:10:28.041 again, 150 00:10:28.141 --> 00:10:30.432 depending on the local and national context, 151 00:10:30.472 --> 00:10:30.934 of course. 152 00:10:31.294 --> 00:10:34.354 But I think this is something that I'm very much interested in. 153 00:10:34.726 --> 00:10:40.065 and exploring further and how these types of partnerships at the local scale can be fostered, 154 00:10:40.105 --> 00:10:41.129 could be developed, 155 00:10:41.410 --> 00:10:44.141 can be shared because what we see. 156 00:10:45.146 --> 00:10:45.948 It's for example, 157 00:10:45.968 --> 00:10:49.460 so if you have a renewable energy project at the local level, 158 00:10:49.621 --> 00:10:51.307 by bringing in the municipality, 159 00:10:51.970 --> 00:10:54.440 it's going to create more legitimacy for what they're doing. 160 00:10:55.062 --> 00:10:57.613 Also having kind of the citizens'voices there, 161 00:10:57.693 --> 00:11:02.449 they're kind of creating these opportunity spaces where people can actually come, 162 00:11:02.830 --> 00:11:03.372 have their, 163 00:11:03.632 --> 00:11:03.913 you know, 164 00:11:04.234 --> 00:11:08.449 voices heard and feel that in a way that's, 165 00:11:08.792 --> 00:11:09.134 you know, 166 00:11:09.215 --> 00:11:09.900 developing. 167 00:11:10.501 --> 00:11:29.021 expertise but not only also being part of of a community and thinking about what's good for the local level because what we've seen also in a lot of these projects that it's not always about the energy transition per se but it's like the energy transition that can actually make 168 00:11:29.102 --> 00:11:38.498 sure that financial profits stay at the local level that they can be reinvested into different community purposes and you know create values on the ground 169 00:11:38.979 --> 00:11:42.462 And then with the private actors coming in as well, 170 00:11:42.482 --> 00:11:42.943 of course, 171 00:11:43.063 --> 00:11:46.226 it can be a little bit tricky because you want to be careful that, 172 00:11:46.546 --> 00:11:46.866 you know, 173 00:11:47.186 --> 00:11:50.970 they don't use these types of partnerships or work with, 174 00:11:51.030 --> 00:11:51.490 for example, 175 00:11:51.570 --> 00:11:53.712 energy communities as a way to, 176 00:11:53.893 --> 00:11:54.173 you know, 177 00:11:54.373 --> 00:11:59.738 perhaps greenwash parts of their portfolios that are not as green. 178 00:12:00.664 --> 00:12:02.778 But hearing even from very... 179 00:12:03.611 --> 00:12:08.997 They say quite radical organizations that even they see radical in the sense, 180 00:12:09.857 --> 00:12:12.540 very much like citizen justice base, 181 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:18.226 very much environmental and social activists saying that even they see the benefits of bringing in the private actors, 182 00:12:18.646 --> 00:12:22.190 because we need to scale up and we need that capital. 183 00:12:23.315 --> 00:12:26.690 to be able to do things at a larger level. 184 00:12:27.351 --> 00:12:31.070 That's really interesting because if you bring the private actors on board, 185 00:12:31.250 --> 00:12:33.203 it's not only their capital that you bring, 186 00:12:33.264 --> 00:12:34.170 but also their skills. 187 00:12:34.912 --> 00:12:38.050 The people who are involved in those organizations, 188 00:12:38.670 --> 00:12:41.050 the skill sets really of those organizations, 189 00:12:41.351 --> 00:12:46.325 and they are extremely part of the local network, 190 00:12:46.646 --> 00:12:48.150 the social locals. 191 00:12:48.477 --> 00:13:04.057 fabric and somehow it's true that they tend to be a little bit overlooked in the conversations you you many projects tend to see okay uh ngos and municipalities and omit let's say the the local 192 00:13:04.237 --> 00:13:16.972 smes and even the mom and pop shops but actually they are also on board they are also facing the struggles and they are also bringing opportunities uh so it's about like creating the local 193 00:13:17.929 --> 00:13:30.846 like the local network and and i mean in europe i think most of the europeans work for smes right so so it makes also a lot of sense to to touch people where they actually work right 194 00:13:31.663 --> 00:13:31.843 Yeah, 195 00:13:32.023 --> 00:13:33.404 that's exactly what I think. 196 00:13:33.785 --> 00:13:34.666 So yeah, 197 00:13:34.686 --> 00:13:35.026 I don't know, 198 00:13:35.026 --> 00:13:37.468 I just think I also come a little bit from a background, 199 00:13:38.029 --> 00:13:39.510 because I think we tend, 200 00:13:39.670 --> 00:13:39.870 like, 201 00:13:40.210 --> 00:13:40.491 you know, 202 00:13:40.551 --> 00:13:41.391 people who are, 203 00:13:41.812 --> 00:13:46.156 I've also been very much into the environmentalist kind of movement. 204 00:13:46.196 --> 00:13:46.736 As I said, 205 00:13:46.736 --> 00:13:53.362 I was very active for almost 10 years in a big environmental NGO in Sweden. 206 00:13:54.336 --> 00:13:55.177 But I think, 207 00:13:55.417 --> 00:13:55.617 yeah, 208 00:13:55.757 --> 00:14:07.894 sometimes we tend to kind of see businesses in a one-dimensional way and we might not really see the positive potential that is there. 209 00:14:08.055 --> 00:14:08.418 Of course, 210 00:14:08.418 --> 00:14:10.594 you should always be critical and nuanced. 211 00:14:11.614 --> 00:14:12.516 But I do think, 212 00:14:12.576 --> 00:14:14.360 and from what I've seen in this project, 213 00:14:14.400 --> 00:14:21.254 I think that there's a lot of goodwill and there are a lot of exciting opportunities to further explore. 214 00:14:21.891 --> 00:14:24.454 And what I said about my own personal experience is that 215 00:14:25.114 --> 00:14:29.579 I come from a family who had a small kind of industrial company, 216 00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:33.763 which was never a question maybe of making a big profit, 217 00:14:33.883 --> 00:14:38.969 but it was always about finding the good solutions for society as a whole, 218 00:14:39.029 --> 00:14:40.350 contributing to something good. 219 00:14:40.912 --> 00:14:44.750 And also just like the little community that you have in there. 220 00:14:45.299 --> 00:14:46.423 in a company to, 221 00:14:46.624 --> 00:14:46.905 you know, 222 00:14:46.925 --> 00:14:48.090 be a good employer, 223 00:14:48.170 --> 00:14:48.572 et cetera, 224 00:14:48.612 --> 00:14:48.994 et cetera. 225 00:14:49.234 --> 00:14:49.617 And to me, 226 00:14:49.698 --> 00:14:51.934 that is also a way of practicing citizenship. 227 00:14:52.637 --> 00:14:54.714 And it's a different variance. 228 00:14:55.294 --> 00:14:57.794 It's kind of formalized as corporate social responsibility, 229 00:14:58.134 --> 00:14:59.754 but actually it goes way beyond that. 230 00:15:00.054 --> 00:15:02.149 It's about like you develop a service, 231 00:15:02.149 --> 00:15:02.834 you develop a product, 232 00:15:02.974 --> 00:15:04.494 you develop something like. 233 00:15:05.135 --> 00:15:06.807 tailored to the local context as well. 234 00:15:07.230 --> 00:15:11.567 And I must say that it's not a conversation we've had often in Energetic. 235 00:15:12.208 --> 00:15:13.847 Really love to dig that further. 236 00:15:14.228 --> 00:15:14.574 And also, 237 00:15:14.615 --> 00:15:15.166 you know, 238 00:15:15.327 --> 00:15:20.487 there are also ways to mobilize the capital that could be really interesting topics for this podcast. 239 00:15:20.627 --> 00:15:25.566 So if you are listening to it right now and you have like ideas of... 240 00:15:25.771 --> 00:15:30.247 public-private partnership for the greater good on climate and energy in mind, 241 00:15:31.053 --> 00:15:32.366 please reach out to me. 242 00:15:32.867 --> 00:15:33.833 I guess I would be really, 243 00:15:33.913 --> 00:15:36.187 really interested in exploring this conversation. 244 00:15:36.547 --> 00:15:45.087 And something that's really come out as well from what you're saying is the question also of public perception, 245 00:15:45.767 --> 00:15:49.930 like having those kind of local actors from the municipalities to the, 246 00:15:50.413 --> 00:15:50.694 let's say, 247 00:15:50.774 --> 00:15:53.527 more environmental friendly or people. 248 00:15:54.117 --> 00:15:59.489 oriented NGOs is boosting the public perception of certain, 249 00:16:00.651 --> 00:16:01.253 the visibility, 250 00:16:01.293 --> 00:16:03.840 the legitimacy of certain projects. 251 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:05.505 So it's about trust, 252 00:16:05.605 --> 00:16:05.886 right? 253 00:16:06.167 --> 00:16:08.795 So how do you frame it and really in this context, 254 00:16:09.276 --> 00:16:09.557 are they, 255 00:16:10.059 --> 00:16:15.816 let's say some good practice that you have noticed in really effectively building this trust, 256 00:16:16.037 --> 00:16:17.663 especially in diverse communities? 257 00:16:17.663 --> 00:16:18.325 Because I mean, 258 00:16:18.646 --> 00:16:21.429 as you've focused on more than 600 people, 259 00:16:21.941 --> 00:16:22.662 But in cases, 260 00:16:23.043 --> 00:16:28.533 you've seen so many different situations where you have a more homogeneous group of people, 261 00:16:28.814 --> 00:16:31.599 where some others are way more diverse. 262 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:34.499 So I would expect trust to be very central to that. 263 00:16:34.579 --> 00:16:36.719 But how did that really happen? 264 00:16:37.419 --> 00:16:39.379 I think that's a really interesting question. 265 00:16:39.581 --> 00:16:40.407 And I think for me, 266 00:16:40.508 --> 00:16:41.778 that's like one of the key. 267 00:16:42.678 --> 00:17:02.563 kind of learnings and taking out of this project is that like trust because we also did this mapping of different factors across our project countries and like what were some of the main barriers for people to actually engage or get involved in the energy transition in different ways and they're like trust was 268 00:17:02.844 --> 00:17:09.012 constantly one of the key barriers even though it kind of was expressed or it can be 269 00:17:09.408 --> 00:17:12.683 was configured in different ways in the different contexts. 270 00:17:12.843 --> 00:17:13.044 I mean, 271 00:17:13.064 --> 00:17:16.021 you've had the conversation with our Hungarian researcher, 272 00:17:16.061 --> 00:17:16.363 Idina, 273 00:17:16.763 --> 00:17:17.788 and I think in Hungary, 274 00:17:18.330 --> 00:17:23.503 it's quite like there's also the mistrust very much towards the government and et cetera. 275 00:17:23.643 --> 00:17:25.203 But that's also what we saw in France, 276 00:17:25.303 --> 00:17:30.703 because France is actually one of the countries in Europe that has the lowest levels of trust for the government. 277 00:17:31.443 --> 00:17:34.619 And so I think an interesting thing here is to, 278 00:17:34.981 --> 00:17:35.283 you know, 279 00:17:36.323 --> 00:18:00.887 look into what could be some of these kind of metrics to look at trust for the energy transition because i've been trying to look and it seems like you know we look at energy democracy we look at energy justice more and more uh social acceptability even social desirability these days but i think the component of trust it's been less developed in the context of the energy transition i think it's something very interesting so 280 00:18:01.469 --> 00:18:04.739 concerning kind of best practices since 281 00:18:05.448 --> 00:18:09.701 Our role as the Jacques Delors Institute in this whole project has been to kind of, 282 00:18:09.701 --> 00:18:09.962 you know, 283 00:18:10.062 --> 00:18:11.667 have this helicopter view. 284 00:18:12.308 --> 00:18:12.529 Also, 285 00:18:12.890 --> 00:18:13.151 you know, 286 00:18:13.252 --> 00:18:16.667 to make some suggestions at the European level. 287 00:18:17.288 --> 00:18:17.549 For me, 288 00:18:17.630 --> 00:18:21.567 there are a couple of components that I've identified so far. 289 00:18:21.887 --> 00:18:23.291 So we know for trust in general, 290 00:18:23.391 --> 00:18:29.207 one of the biggest barriers that leads to mistrust is inequality. 291 00:18:29.547 --> 00:18:30.867 So socioeconomic inequality. 292 00:18:31.993 --> 00:18:34.707 And I think here's also something in the energy transition. 293 00:18:35.467 --> 00:18:50.775 that quite recently so with the energy price crisis i mean it's a topic that's really been much more widely discussed you know i think the topic of energy poverty from being quite marginal it's become much more well 294 00:18:50.955 --> 00:19:04.003 mainstream and also just kind of the the different types of inequalities just in the context of the energy systems that were you know brought to the surface by the energy price crisis so their inequality is is one thing 295 00:19:04.453 --> 00:19:09.331 And here it's all about making the actions that everyone has to undertake. 296 00:19:09.711 --> 00:19:12.657 So talking about energy efficiency, 297 00:19:12.777 --> 00:19:13.538 like in the home, 298 00:19:13.558 --> 00:19:14.921 so energy retrofitting, 299 00:19:15.302 --> 00:19:19.309 access to clean mobility options, 300 00:19:19.790 --> 00:19:19.951 etc. 301 00:19:20.311 --> 00:19:27.184 So to make kind of those things that we know that everyone has to do or has to get involved with sooner or later to make it be, 302 00:19:27.224 --> 00:19:27.925 you know, 303 00:19:28.206 --> 00:19:28.827 affordable, 304 00:19:28.967 --> 00:19:30.911 easily accessible for everyone. 305 00:19:31.052 --> 00:19:33.147 And here we also see that these kind of, 306 00:19:33.308 --> 00:19:33.611 you know. 307 00:19:34.313 --> 00:19:37.077 As we call energy citizenship initiatives, 308 00:19:37.177 --> 00:19:39.240 also working on the ground, 309 00:19:39.380 --> 00:19:41.864 oftentimes locally with communities, 310 00:19:41.944 --> 00:19:46.651 that these are really good kind of places. 311 00:19:47.592 --> 00:19:47.873 Also, 312 00:19:48.394 --> 00:19:52.186 because they pilot and they integrate often these values, 313 00:19:52.286 --> 00:19:54.011 these different types of social values. 314 00:19:54.252 --> 00:19:58.371 So to kind of even out the differences in taking particular care of the most vulnerable. 315 00:19:59.590 --> 00:20:04.200 There are a lot of very interesting things going on where they work with these communities already, 316 00:20:05.001 --> 00:20:07.527 or just more broadly have these visions where 317 00:20:08.052 --> 00:20:23.521 there's potential if also these actors could you know get the support they need to scale up it's something that could potentially you know if we talk about trust so this was the inequality part of the trust for the energy transition then 318 00:20:23.922 --> 00:20:37.170 another thing that we've been talking a lot about in the project so it's different types of participation in governance which is also something that can help to increase legitimacy for energy transition policies 319 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:38.722 And then there's something that 320 00:20:39.263 --> 00:20:47.978 I've thought a lot about myself because it's something coming from this kind of international development corporation scene where we talk a lot about policy cohesion. 321 00:20:48.823 --> 00:20:51.537 And policy cohesion in this sense would be like so. 322 00:20:52.642 --> 00:20:54.104 The politicians are saying, 323 00:20:54.324 --> 00:20:54.604 okay, 324 00:20:54.664 --> 00:20:56.285 so for the energy transition, 325 00:20:57.046 --> 00:20:58.167 we're going to move, 326 00:20:58.227 --> 00:20:58.607 you know, 327 00:20:59.308 --> 00:21:01.210 to renewable energy, 328 00:21:02.070 --> 00:21:02.811 for example, 329 00:21:03.051 --> 00:21:06.814 while they're at the same time giving a lot of subsidies, 330 00:21:06.895 --> 00:21:07.575 for example, 331 00:21:07.695 --> 00:21:07.915 to, 332 00:21:08.236 --> 00:21:08.496 you know, 333 00:21:08.536 --> 00:21:09.737 the fossil fuel sectors, 334 00:21:10.117 --> 00:21:11.138 which has its reasons, 335 00:21:11.178 --> 00:21:11.779 of course, 336 00:21:12.099 --> 00:21:15.562 but it's an incohesion in the policy. 337 00:21:16.103 --> 00:21:19.795 So between kind of where the money goes and where the talk is, 338 00:21:19.915 --> 00:21:22.062 which I also think is something. 339 00:21:23.022 --> 00:21:24.814 that it creates distrust. 340 00:21:25.335 --> 00:21:25.521 Yes, 341 00:21:25.604 --> 00:21:25.934 absolutely. 342 00:21:26.114 --> 00:21:28.214 It creates mistrust because on the one hand, 343 00:21:28.314 --> 00:21:28.954 you say something, 344 00:21:29.074 --> 00:21:30.914 the government will say something and the other one, 345 00:21:31.396 --> 00:21:32.594 it's going to say something else. 346 00:21:32.916 --> 00:21:33.394 And of course, 347 00:21:33.454 --> 00:21:35.852 it creates a lot of confusion and it creates a lot of, 348 00:21:36.638 --> 00:21:36.970 let's say, 349 00:21:37.497 --> 00:21:38.690 also some social unrest, 350 00:21:38.771 --> 00:21:38.994 right? 351 00:21:39.538 --> 00:21:40.713 Your project comes, 352 00:21:41.074 --> 00:21:41.280 I mean, 353 00:21:41.280 --> 00:21:43.934 it started during the energy price crisis, 354 00:21:44.555 --> 00:21:48.714 which itself comes a few years after the yellow vest movement. 355 00:21:49.014 --> 00:21:49.502 And I... 356 00:21:49.584 --> 00:21:54.811 Remember your colleagues from the Jacques Delors Institute looking really into the topic of the yellow vest, 357 00:21:54.811 --> 00:21:56.273 because also based in France, 358 00:21:56.273 --> 00:22:02.742 but this kind of European helicopter understanding of what was at stake is really exactly that. 359 00:22:02.882 --> 00:22:07.613 It's about like how much if we want to go together somewhere, 360 00:22:07.694 --> 00:22:10.741 we need to have a coherent language, 361 00:22:11.122 --> 00:22:11.262 right? 362 00:22:11.362 --> 00:22:13.962 We need to speak somehow the same language. 363 00:22:14.698 --> 00:22:17.949 That's really super fascinating that you take the word cohesion, 364 00:22:18.009 --> 00:22:20.534 because also the EU has cohesion funds. 365 00:22:21.458 --> 00:22:21.719 I mean, 366 00:22:21.780 --> 00:22:24.934 nobody ever uses the word cohesion except for EU projects. 367 00:22:25.435 --> 00:22:29.027 So you said social inequalities and a lack of cohesion, 368 00:22:29.148 --> 00:22:30.492 it creates a lot of mistrust. 369 00:22:31.236 --> 00:22:32.688 What also creates a lot of mistrust, 370 00:22:32.728 --> 00:22:33.333 according to you? 371 00:22:34.187 --> 00:22:34.307 So 372 00:22:34.748 --> 00:22:38.134 I think one of the big problems right now is also people here, 373 00:22:38.174 --> 00:22:39.716 both at the national level, 374 00:22:39.797 --> 00:22:41.499 but you also have at the European level. 375 00:22:42.060 --> 00:22:43.463 So a lot of fears, 376 00:22:43.523 --> 00:22:43.924 I think, 377 00:22:44.164 --> 00:22:45.306 for the energy transition. 378 00:22:46.047 --> 00:22:48.309 And I think because they hear, 379 00:22:48.450 --> 00:22:48.870 okay, 380 00:22:49.651 --> 00:22:52.274 you read somewhere or you hear somewhere that, 381 00:22:53.215 --> 00:22:53.355 yeah, 382 00:22:53.395 --> 00:22:54.877 we're going to be forced to, 383 00:22:54.997 --> 00:22:55.417 you know, 384 00:22:55.537 --> 00:22:59.282 replace our gas boiler. 385 00:23:00.062 --> 00:23:02.185 We're going to need to get a heat pump, 386 00:23:02.485 --> 00:23:02.625 etc, 387 00:23:02.665 --> 00:23:03.046 etc. 388 00:23:03.974 --> 00:23:04.877 because of these new 389 00:23:05.218 --> 00:23:06.562 EU rules, 390 00:23:07.565 --> 00:23:09.270 or it may even be at the national level. 391 00:23:09.950 --> 00:23:10.211 And 392 00:23:11.075 --> 00:23:12.863 I think one thing in our project, 393 00:23:12.903 --> 00:23:14.470 so related to trust also, 394 00:23:14.590 --> 00:23:18.127 is that citizenship in this kind of context, 395 00:23:18.268 --> 00:23:18.710 it's like, 396 00:23:19.411 --> 00:23:19.652 okay, 397 00:23:19.853 --> 00:23:20.396 citizenship, 398 00:23:20.738 --> 00:23:22.005 it's responsibilities, 399 00:23:22.267 --> 00:23:22.870 it's rights, 400 00:23:23.130 --> 00:23:26.570 but it has to be thought about as a relationship. 401 00:23:27.310 --> 00:23:27.431 So, 402 00:23:27.572 --> 00:23:28.360 for example, 403 00:23:28.521 --> 00:23:29.490 if we have these... 404 00:23:30.353 --> 00:23:53.739 rules which kind of will imply an individualization of responsibilities somehow so i mean not only but i think a lot of citizens perceive it in this way so it will be up to them to make the the move to get a heat pump for example or to energy retrofit or to get an electric car or start to commute 405 00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:57.866 by you know train bus whatever is accessible you 406 00:23:58.013 --> 00:24:12.760 you need to think about it in this um in a sense that it's a mutually a mutual relationship and where actually the state and other actors need to have responsibility to provide the the right you know environment 407 00:24:12.820 --> 00:24:19.450 for citizens to be able to do this yeah there is like this pressure on making an effort that you may 408 00:24:19.850 --> 00:24:25.471 You feel that you are pressured to do a certain effort while other people don't and the people who should be leading the way, 409 00:24:25.974 --> 00:24:35.926 like governments and government representatives are not really showing the example and they are asking you to do everything and they would do nothing. 410 00:24:36.006 --> 00:24:37.182 It's like this kind of perception, 411 00:24:37.263 --> 00:24:37.445 right? 412 00:24:37.649 --> 00:24:37.812 Yeah, 413 00:24:37.812 --> 00:24:38.282 exactly. 414 00:24:38.506 --> 00:24:41.066 And while there are perhaps not the right supports. 415 00:24:41.455 --> 00:24:44.950 perhaps there are not the right kind of financial subsidies available. 416 00:24:45.110 --> 00:24:46.339 And even if they are available, 417 00:24:46.399 --> 00:24:57.289 maybe people can't access them because they don't have the time or the administration to actually access these subsidies are complicated, 418 00:24:57.369 --> 00:24:57.509 etc. 419 00:24:58.753 --> 00:25:04.890 And I think all of these things could be looked at under a framework of trust. 420 00:25:05.210 --> 00:25:08.670 And here's something I wanted to add something because so we did this very big. 421 00:25:09.941 --> 00:25:15.234 a survey in our project so we did a pan-european survey or a little bit over 422 00:25:16.076 --> 00:25:28.657 10 000 participants so you were talking also about the perception of citizens with regards to the energy transition and so in the project we've been looking at citizens roles in the energy transition and here i think also 423 00:25:29.506 --> 00:25:34.399 citizens perceiving mostly that their roles in the energy transition is, 424 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:35.442 at least what we saw, 425 00:25:35.602 --> 00:25:38.642 is that they're very much confined to the private sphere or to the household, 426 00:25:39.003 --> 00:25:41.110 which might not be so strange after all. 427 00:25:41.672 --> 00:25:42.114 Of course, 428 00:25:42.254 --> 00:25:46.890 it's easier to do something within your own home or with your own lifestyle, 429 00:25:46.930 --> 00:25:47.633 for example, 430 00:25:48.235 --> 00:25:51.265 like switch to a green electricity provider, 431 00:25:52.108 --> 00:25:55.399 do some energy improvements in the home, 432 00:25:55.419 --> 00:25:55.780 et cetera, 433 00:25:55.821 --> 00:25:56.202 et cetera. 434 00:25:57.215 --> 00:25:59.278 But as we talked about before, 435 00:25:59.458 --> 00:26:01.780 and as my project colleagues talked about before, 436 00:26:01.800 --> 00:26:07.607 there are so many different types of ways to get involved at your workplace, 437 00:26:08.387 --> 00:26:14.394 within different types of initiatives that are going on everywhere around us. 438 00:26:15.115 --> 00:26:19.383 And what we see then is the perception that people have of their own role, 439 00:26:19.543 --> 00:26:25.714 which I think is also to some extent influenced by the way and how 440 00:26:26.231 --> 00:26:44.439 the energy transition and kind of citizens actions are being communicated also by decision makers it's limiting and we actually also asked citizens like so until 2030 what could you imagine like doing within the energy transition and of course there 441 00:26:44.499 --> 00:26:54.134 again also the biggest kind of portions of the the responses were at the the private level or the personal level you 442 00:26:54.275 --> 00:26:59.924 But we also see that actually 50% think that beyond the private sphere, 443 00:26:59.964 --> 00:27:02.868 they could also get involved through their workplaces, 444 00:27:03.209 --> 00:27:04.551 through schools, 445 00:27:04.591 --> 00:27:06.253 their children's daycare, 446 00:27:06.314 --> 00:27:06.454 etc. 447 00:27:07.817 --> 00:27:15.014 A bit fewer could imagine participating in deliberative processes related to the energy transition. 448 00:27:15.856 --> 00:27:16.698 And about the same, 449 00:27:16.718 --> 00:27:23.314 like around 30% could imagine being part of some kind of citizen-based community organization. 450 00:27:23.924 --> 00:27:25.346 And what I want to say with this, 451 00:27:25.467 --> 00:27:25.948 I think, 452 00:27:26.248 --> 00:27:27.029 first of all, 453 00:27:27.590 --> 00:27:28.412 policymakers, 454 00:27:28.793 --> 00:27:29.113 first of all, 455 00:27:29.253 --> 00:27:34.102 they need to widen their perceptions of citizens'roles in the energy transition. 456 00:27:34.883 --> 00:27:35.545 And also, 457 00:27:35.726 --> 00:27:40.702 we need to be better at communicating the different types of involvement that there are. 458 00:27:41.163 --> 00:27:42.025 Because I think today, 459 00:27:42.106 --> 00:27:42.286 yeah, 460 00:27:42.346 --> 00:27:46.037 a lot of people are aware of the different things you can do within your household, 461 00:27:46.057 --> 00:27:47.882 but there are so many different things to do. 462 00:27:48.424 --> 00:27:51.962 And if we kind of make an effort to also make... 463 00:27:53.101 --> 00:28:14.694 these types of involvements more accessible as well perhaps if we ask the same questions in a couple of years perhaps it will change it's a question of appeal as well it has to be appealing it has to be uh i think it has been quite a recurrent theme also in in this podcast the fact that solutions the easiest the simplest the most sustainable 464 00:28:14.714 --> 00:28:15.879 they have to be appealing you 465 00:28:16.270 --> 00:28:18.183 meaning they have to be convenient, 466 00:28:18.846 --> 00:28:21.063 they have to be affordable or even cheap, 467 00:28:21.824 --> 00:28:23.053 or cheaper at least than, 468 00:28:23.174 --> 00:28:23.456 let's say, 469 00:28:23.436 --> 00:28:24.403 the conventional one. 470 00:28:24.503 --> 00:28:29.443 They have to be in the middle of the shelf and not on the top part of the shelf in the supermarket. 471 00:28:30.727 --> 00:28:34.941 It must be so much easier to be in, 472 00:28:35.082 --> 00:28:35.443 let's say, 473 00:28:35.703 --> 00:28:42.061 in the environmentally conscious area than it is to be on the polluting side, 474 00:28:42.181 --> 00:28:42.383 right? 475 00:28:42.947 --> 00:28:44.821 But it's also the question of how... 476 00:28:45.439 --> 00:28:50.354 really regulations and how businesses take ownership of those challenges, 477 00:28:50.434 --> 00:28:50.655 right? 478 00:28:51.136 --> 00:28:51.780 Because, 479 00:28:51.780 --> 00:28:51.941 I mean, 480 00:28:51.981 --> 00:28:54.555 we had a conversation a long time ago with Monique Goyens, 481 00:28:55.117 --> 00:28:56.347 the director of BUC, 482 00:28:56.367 --> 00:28:57.415 the consumer organization. 483 00:28:58.156 --> 00:28:58.640 She said, 484 00:28:59.002 --> 00:28:59.164 yeah, 485 00:28:59.264 --> 00:29:00.695 sustainability has to be sexy, 486 00:29:01.157 --> 00:29:07.413 but somehow it's also about making sustainability really mainstream and making sure that there is no greenwashing, 487 00:29:07.554 --> 00:29:07.675 right? 488 00:29:07.755 --> 00:29:09.361 You mentioned greenwashing earlier, 489 00:29:09.662 --> 00:29:10.626 and that is also, 490 00:29:10.726 --> 00:29:11.609 of course, 491 00:29:11.730 --> 00:29:13.155 affecting trust. 492 00:29:13.363 --> 00:29:13.490 Yeah. 493 00:29:14.682 --> 00:29:15.444 That's for sure. 494 00:29:16.066 --> 00:29:21.744 But I really think that it's an interesting avenue to research and to look at further, 495 00:29:22.086 --> 00:29:28.371 to look at these different metrics and how we can build trust for the energy transition because I think if we're going to be able to, 496 00:29:29.153 --> 00:29:33.018 if we want to achieve our decarbonization objectives. 497 00:29:33.763 --> 00:29:34.574 until 2030, 498 00:29:34.694 --> 00:29:35.519 2040, 499 00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:36.203 2050, 500 00:29:36.843 --> 00:29:52.463 we really need to start looking more at the social sides of the energy transition and making all the amazing research and knowledge that there is about this more widespread. 501 00:29:53.004 --> 00:29:54.543 That's also why this podcast exists. 502 00:29:55.489 --> 00:30:00.382 And I think what you're doing then is really important because we're not... 503 00:30:00.989 --> 00:30:05.438 Even though we need all of the engineers and the economists, 504 00:30:05.478 --> 00:30:05.618 etc., 505 00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:10.187 I think other things are needed too for the energy transition. 506 00:30:10.368 --> 00:30:12.816 And I think what we are seeing now, 507 00:30:13.137 --> 00:30:15.685 like you mentioned, 508 00:30:15.846 --> 00:30:15.966 the... 509 00:30:18.132 --> 00:30:33.269 so the yellow vest movement uh there has been really big discussions like last summer in germany with the ban on fossil boilers for example also bringing in kind of the the the new eu rules etc into 510 00:30:33.330 --> 00:30:44.946 this kind of big controversy and i i just think that looking at those trends also looking at kind of the situation we are facing ahead of the the european elections we're also the the 511 00:30:45.566 --> 00:31:02.553 energy and climate transition is being instrumentalized to to some extent by radical and conservative right uh kind of populist parties as a way to say just saying okay it's not going to be socially just it's going to have a bad impact 512 00:31:02.934 --> 00:31:13.563 for the the most vulnerable etc etc and instead of you know kind of letting this narrative become the dominant one we need to have and the 513 00:31:13.737 --> 00:31:34.150 our decision makers really need to come with an alternative narrative where we can actually talk about so what will the there's something we saw in the project as well that there's really a lack of these kind of concrete objectives in the energy transition that kind of to speak that speak to people's everyday lives because so the energy transition might seem quite 514 00:31:34.431 --> 00:31:43.148 abstract but also then you hear okay well it might impact my job it will impact like my you know my wallet etc etc you 515 00:31:43.647 --> 00:31:47.743 and how I will be able to move or travel, 516 00:31:48.564 --> 00:31:50.003 I think then we need to be like, 517 00:31:50.163 --> 00:31:50.364 okay, 518 00:31:50.465 --> 00:31:54.303 so what will actually an energy mix with a lot of renewables, 519 00:31:54.624 --> 00:31:57.543 what will it actually look like in your everyday life? 520 00:31:58.203 --> 00:32:04.263 What will reducing carbon emissions to reach climate neutrality to 2050, 521 00:32:04.404 --> 00:32:07.683 what will it actually look like in that person's everyday life? 522 00:32:07.803 --> 00:32:10.681 How many people will kind of get... 523 00:32:11.166 --> 00:32:30.359 re-skilled or what types of new uh educations will there be what types of new jobs just to kind of make it concrete for people so it's it seems less scary and i think it's in the the way we communicate with citizens so people feel that they are 524 00:32:30.379 --> 00:32:36.783 kind of part of it and it's not being done to them but they're and it's being done with it's about uh you 525 00:32:37.198 --> 00:32:56.198 this building a system that is uh what them and not imposed on them and i mean we also had a very interesting conversation about climate communication with the shadmaw a few episodes ago and that if you haven't catch up with it it's really like a master class on climate communication so uh 526 00:32:56.279 --> 00:33:03.195 i would definitely encourage our listeners to to catch up with that episode but karen i have to ask you a tricky question now you 527 00:33:03.258 --> 00:33:03.559 I mean, 528 00:33:03.740 --> 00:33:08.335 your project reached an end at the end of April 2024. 529 00:33:09.316 --> 00:33:11.525 So what are the next steps for... 530 00:33:12.084 --> 00:33:14.878 the Energy Prospects database and also for you? 531 00:33:15.458 --> 00:33:15.620 Well, 532 00:33:15.641 --> 00:33:16.897 I think within the project, 533 00:33:18.101 --> 00:33:22.018 I've had really the pleasure to work with such a group of, 534 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:23.898 they were mostly universities, 535 00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:28.038 but also some non-governmental actors like ourselves. 536 00:33:28.738 --> 00:33:35.618 And I just have to say that now everyone is really excited to use all the data that we have produced, 537 00:33:36.500 --> 00:33:38.518 both in the formulation of new projects, 538 00:33:38.783 --> 00:33:39.355 but also... 539 00:33:39.879 --> 00:33:40.161 to, 540 00:33:40.422 --> 00:33:40.784 you know, 541 00:33:41.025 --> 00:33:42.554 get this research out there. 542 00:33:43.155 --> 00:33:48.534 We have a book that's going to be published soon on energy citizenship in Europe. 543 00:33:49.176 --> 00:33:53.814 And I know that there are a lot of academic articles in the making from all of our university partners. 544 00:33:54.735 --> 00:33:54.855 So 545 00:33:55.600 --> 00:34:01.114 I'm hoping that what we have done within the project will feed into the discussions at the European level, 546 00:34:01.315 --> 00:34:02.414 also at the national level, 547 00:34:02.996 --> 00:34:08.454 to kind of widen how we look at citizen engagement and involvement in the energy transition. 548 00:34:09.117 --> 00:34:10.401 And for myself, 549 00:34:10.942 --> 00:34:15.034 I'm quite excited because I'm not sure exactly what I will be doing next, 550 00:34:15.596 --> 00:34:17.041 but I have some different ideas. 551 00:34:17.102 --> 00:34:17.543 And I think, 552 00:34:17.584 --> 00:34:18.306 for example, 553 00:34:18.367 --> 00:34:19.551 kind of exploring, 554 00:34:19.852 --> 00:34:20.334 for example, 555 00:34:20.735 --> 00:34:22.841 the possibilities of working, 556 00:34:22.841 --> 00:34:23.202 you know, 557 00:34:23.322 --> 00:34:27.394 with the corporate social responsibility and how then, 558 00:34:27.594 --> 00:34:27.815 you know, 559 00:34:27.815 --> 00:34:28.758 the private sector, 560 00:34:28.938 --> 00:34:29.841 for example, 561 00:34:30.423 --> 00:34:33.694 could provide additional through their CSR. 562 00:34:34.555 --> 00:34:35.238 Financing, 563 00:34:35.278 --> 00:34:38.830 which is something we see that a lot of citizen initiatives are in dire need of. 564 00:34:39.431 --> 00:34:41.313 If there are avenues to explore there, 565 00:34:41.453 --> 00:34:42.154 as well as, 566 00:34:42.254 --> 00:34:42.995 for example, 567 00:34:43.775 --> 00:34:43.996 big, 568 00:34:44.236 --> 00:34:44.616 perhaps, 569 00:34:44.696 --> 00:34:47.600 companies with a lot of engineers or, 570 00:34:47.680 --> 00:34:47.920 you know, 571 00:34:47.980 --> 00:34:51.744 different types of technical competences also within their CSR, 572 00:34:51.824 --> 00:34:55.068 how they could perhaps provide that type of support also, 573 00:34:55.148 --> 00:34:55.629 for example, 574 00:34:55.629 --> 00:34:56.770 to energy communities. 575 00:34:57.417 --> 00:35:00.888 It's something that I would be interested in exploring further, 576 00:35:01.189 --> 00:35:09.213 as well as looking more at how we can talk about how we can look at and how we can talk about trust for the energy transition moving forward. 577 00:35:10.196 --> 00:35:12.641 That's super exciting indeed and 578 00:35:13.041 --> 00:35:18.391 I hope to be able to invite you again in your new hat. 579 00:35:20.397 --> 00:35:22.592 So please keep us posted about that. 580 00:35:23.378 --> 00:35:23.620 Okay, 581 00:35:23.661 --> 00:35:24.872 so now it's time to wrap up. 582 00:35:25.175 --> 00:35:25.950 Thank you so much. 583 00:35:26.214 --> 00:35:33.273 It's been really an enlightening series and thank you so much to the Energy Prospects project for making it happen. 584 00:35:33.374 --> 00:35:36.801 I'm really happy we could really reflect on. 585 00:35:37.347 --> 00:35:39.477 those discussions on energy citizenship, 586 00:35:39.517 --> 00:35:40.442 climate citizenship, 587 00:35:40.742 --> 00:35:42.071 actually being a citizen, 588 00:35:42.152 --> 00:35:43.742 what it means in all its nuances. 589 00:35:44.142 --> 00:35:44.725 Because, 590 00:35:44.725 --> 00:35:44.845 yeah, 591 00:35:44.886 --> 00:35:48.622 being an energy consumer is not only about like consuming energy, 592 00:35:48.802 --> 00:35:50.442 it's about like the decision making processes. 593 00:35:50.663 --> 00:35:51.465 And I mean, 594 00:35:51.525 --> 00:35:56.822 your colleague Camille also said that earlier this year in a previous episode. 595 00:35:57.605 --> 00:36:02.102 So it's really about building and fostering a narrative that really 596 00:36:02.693 --> 00:36:04.686 brings us together and not sets us apart. 597 00:36:05.209 --> 00:36:07.912 So it's really about achieving together a sustainable, 598 00:36:07.932 --> 00:36:12.446 trustworthy and democratic energy system throughout Europe and throughout the rest of the world. 599 00:36:13.027 --> 00:36:18.446 So I really hope these episodes have inspired you to think about your own role in this collective effort. 600 00:36:19.010 --> 00:36:21.126 If you are in need for inspiration, 601 00:36:21.586 --> 00:36:23.546 check the Energy Prospects database. 602 00:36:24.506 --> 00:36:25.486 And big thanks for... 603 00:36:26.560 --> 00:36:31.970 from me to the listeners because it's been quite an interesting and fascinating journey. 604 00:36:32.831 --> 00:36:34.166 And really thank you again, 605 00:36:34.247 --> 00:36:34.530 Karine, 606 00:36:34.731 --> 00:36:38.930 and to everyone from the Energy Prospects for your support in making this series possible. 607 00:36:39.491 --> 00:36:44.110 So let's keep engaging and discussing and contribute together to a greener, 608 00:36:44.330 --> 00:36:45.470 more sustainable and just future. 609 00:36:45.670 --> 00:36:47.888 And let's vote at the European elections, 610 00:36:47.949 --> 00:36:48.130 right? 611 00:36:48.671 --> 00:36:48.821 Yes. 612 00:36:49.490 --> 00:36:50.386 Thank you so much, 613 00:36:50.427 --> 00:36:50.590 Marie. 614 00:36:52.771 --> 00:36:55.646 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. 615 00:36:55.986 --> 00:37:03.826 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward thinking mouths out there. 616 00:37:04.532 --> 00:37:05.415 I'm Maureen Canales, 617 00:37:05.516 --> 00:37:07.183 your host from Policy Consultancy, 618 00:37:07.243 --> 00:37:08.327 Next Energy Consumer, 619 00:37:08.709 --> 00:37:12.143 and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, 620 00:37:12.544 --> 00:37:14.470 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. 621 00:37:15.350 --> 00:37:16.614 Since 2021, 622 00:37:16.775 --> 00:37:18.259 we've shared countless stories, 623 00:37:18.399 --> 00:37:18.901 insights, 624 00:37:18.921 --> 00:37:21.990 and ideas over more than 40 episodes, 625 00:37:22.431 --> 00:37:25.410 and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. 626 00:37:26.311 --> 00:37:30.608 If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, 627 00:37:30.969 --> 00:37:32.530 why not support us on Patreon? 628 00:37:33.200 --> 00:37:36.478 Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. 629 00:37:37.018 --> 00:37:38.717 Check out the show notes for the link. 630 00:37:39.498 --> 00:37:39.900 And hey, 631 00:37:40.362 --> 00:37:46.026 if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, 632 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