WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.832 --> 00:00:02.452 Imagine this, 2 00:00:03.352 --> 00:00:10.394 you're a really passionate and motivated young farmer who just spent the last few years studying agroecology, 3 00:00:10.755 --> 00:00:11.275 agronomy, 4 00:00:11.895 --> 00:00:13.275 biology and all of that. 5 00:00:13.795 --> 00:00:18.717 And you've done a few internships on regenerative farms and you're ready to start your own farm. 6 00:00:19.277 --> 00:00:22.098 And that's a great energy and a great place to start from, 7 00:00:22.338 --> 00:00:22.598 right? 8 00:00:23.038 --> 00:00:30.460 But you're going to have one major problem right from the start and it's being able to buy farmland. 9 00:00:30.740 --> 00:00:31.280 and the farm. 10 00:00:31.820 --> 00:00:32.161 Because, 11 00:00:32.481 --> 00:00:32.621 well, 12 00:00:32.621 --> 00:00:32.961 you see, 13 00:00:33.281 --> 00:00:37.463 farmland has been treated as a very profitable financial asset. 14 00:00:38.123 --> 00:00:48.627 And the consequence of that is that the price of farmland has been going up so much that it's now completely unaffordable for a young farmer who'd like to start a regenerative farm. 15 00:00:49.688 --> 00:00:52.569 And so looking into solutions to that problem, 16 00:00:52.749 --> 00:00:57.571 I came across a really interesting solution proposed by an organization called 17 00:00:57.911 --> 00:01:00.032 Lenteland. And that leads us to today's 18 00:01:00.312 --> 00:01:00.772 episode, 19 00:01:00.812 --> 00:01:02.314 which is a conversation with 20 00:01:02.734 --> 00:01:04.795 Elin Veninga from Lentoland. 21 00:01:05.396 --> 00:01:16.504 And together we really get to the bottom of the issues around land ownership and the really interesting solutions proposed by Lentoland as a completely alternative model. 22 00:01:16.965 --> 00:01:17.905 I'm not going to say more. 23 00:01:18.005 --> 00:01:19.566 It's a really interesting conversation. 24 00:01:19.626 --> 00:01:21.868 I definitely recommend listening until the end. 25 00:01:22.649 --> 00:01:26.412 And this episode was produced in partnership with Soil Capital. 26 00:01:27.172 --> 00:01:27.712 I'm your host, 27 00:01:27.893 --> 00:01:28.313 Raphael, 28 00:01:28.993 --> 00:01:30.534 and this is the Deep Seat Podcast. 29 00:01:38.238 --> 00:01:38.419 Hi, 30 00:01:38.539 --> 00:01:38.799 Eline. 31 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:39.659 Hi. 32 00:01:40.380 --> 00:01:41.740 Welcome to the Deep Seat Podcast. 33 00:01:41.820 --> 00:01:42.501 Great to have you here. 34 00:01:42.801 --> 00:01:43.221 Thanks. 35 00:01:43.361 --> 00:01:44.022 Nice to meet you. 36 00:01:45.222 --> 00:01:48.624 Could you start by briefly introducing yourself for the listeners? 37 00:01:49.505 --> 00:01:49.625 Yeah, 38 00:01:49.705 --> 00:01:49.865 well, 39 00:01:50.005 --> 00:01:50.485 I'm Eline. 40 00:01:50.605 --> 00:01:53.027 I'm working as a chef de mission at 41 00:01:53.507 --> 00:01:54.127 Lenteland. 42 00:01:55.068 --> 00:01:56.369 As a young child, 43 00:01:57.129 --> 00:01:59.830 I always go back to my childhood because I was already, 44 00:02:00.350 --> 00:02:00.650 I think, 45 00:02:00.670 --> 00:02:03.111 a little activist coming out of my mother. 46 00:02:04.512 --> 00:02:06.273 So during my school time, 47 00:02:06.453 --> 00:02:18.457 I organized sometimes like actions for problems in other parts of the world where people had hunger or suffered other kind of harsh living conditions. 48 00:02:19.778 --> 00:02:24.640 But I think where my journey all started was in the artisanal business. 49 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:26.101 butcher shop of my grandpa, 50 00:02:26.902 --> 00:02:27.782 Peter Verbaas. 51 00:02:28.483 --> 00:02:29.403 And there 52 00:02:29.764 --> 00:02:31.485 I learned a lot about the food system, 53 00:02:31.665 --> 00:02:34.807 or that was my first connection to the food system. 54 00:02:35.408 --> 00:02:39.210 He worked together with a lot of farmers in the neighborhood of his shop. 55 00:02:39.971 --> 00:02:44.694 And he had a very much love for all living creatures. 56 00:02:44.694 --> 00:02:45.655 And at the same time, 57 00:02:45.675 --> 00:02:50.298 he of course made a product that was a little bit different. 58 00:02:50.798 --> 00:02:52.860 But he did that with so much respect. 59 00:02:53.200 --> 00:02:58.064 and also with so much inclusivity for the community he was serving, 60 00:02:58.685 --> 00:03:02.308 that I think that made a big impression on me. 61 00:03:03.009 --> 00:03:06.652 And also how he treated his customers with a lot of attention, 62 00:03:07.393 --> 00:03:10.375 whereby he also got the loyalty of the people. 63 00:03:11.176 --> 00:03:11.516 And 64 00:03:12.517 --> 00:03:14.279 I think my road started there. 65 00:03:15.100 --> 00:03:16.841 And during my study time, 66 00:03:16.881 --> 00:03:19.744 I was very interested in everything that was concerning. 67 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:22.261 humanitarian intervention, 68 00:03:22.361 --> 00:03:23.041 human security. 69 00:03:23.642 --> 00:03:25.002 So I did my thesis about 70 00:03:25.363 --> 00:03:27.504 Afghanistan, the war there. 71 00:03:28.904 --> 00:03:29.625 But eventually 72 00:03:30.205 --> 00:03:37.909 I found out that I wanted to make a positive impact on the living conditions closer by. 73 00:03:38.689 --> 00:03:44.792 And I think that everything starts with food and eventually actually everything starts with farming. 74 00:03:45.924 --> 00:03:50.806 So after a long road through the supermarket world, 75 00:03:51.606 --> 00:03:55.547 I found my way back to where actually it all started, 76 00:03:56.048 --> 00:03:59.109 that I want to make a very positive contribution, 77 00:04:00.329 --> 00:04:08.492 which is also a contribution to root causes of everything that concerns inequality and unsustainability. 78 00:04:09.977 --> 00:04:10.317 And that's, 79 00:04:10.377 --> 00:04:10.677 I think, 80 00:04:10.757 --> 00:04:11.698 regenerative farming. 81 00:04:11.798 --> 00:04:15.280 Once I found out and I got in contact with regenerative farming, 82 00:04:16.181 --> 00:04:20.103 it was so inspiring how many problems this can solve, 83 00:04:20.584 --> 00:04:24.506 not only considering the ecological state of our planet, 84 00:04:25.007 --> 00:04:29.490 but especially also our own well-being, 85 00:04:29.810 --> 00:04:30.250 I think. 86 00:04:30.630 --> 00:04:34.713 Do you still remember having the lightbulb moment about regenerative farming? 87 00:04:35.354 --> 00:04:38.816 Or do you remember the moment where you first heard about it and thought this? 88 00:04:39.036 --> 00:04:56.764 this is it well i actually i think i was already connected to people who who were practicing regenerative farming but back then it didn't have a name yet and i also believe that all the agro ecological farmers like in the bio 89 00:04:56.884 --> 00:05:06.788 world and the biodynamic farming already working through these practices but i think what helps by stating regenerative farming you 90 00:05:07.092 --> 00:05:12.375 is that it concerns a holistic approach to things that are going on in the world. 91 00:05:13.095 --> 00:05:18.038 And it brings us into connection with the soil. 92 00:05:18.298 --> 00:05:22.941 And I think that's a very powerful way of looking to things, 93 00:05:23.481 --> 00:05:31.145 because our soul is directly connected to our living environment and directly connecting to our own guts, 94 00:05:32.006 --> 00:05:36.248 which have an incredible involvement on our mental and our... 95 00:05:36.668 --> 00:05:51.535 physical well-being and they think yeah if you if you get to know more about these things then I think there's for me there was no way back by putting all I have in in this path. 96 00:05:52.295 --> 00:05:56.537 Right and that led you to eventually start 97 00:05:57.037 --> 00:05:57.497 Lentoland? 98 00:05:58.678 --> 00:06:03.500 No well Lentoland was founded by Wouter Veer an impact investor from Rotterdam. 99 00:06:04.520 --> 00:06:06.060 And he already had a very, 100 00:06:06.601 --> 00:06:07.081 I think, 101 00:06:07.421 --> 00:06:10.802 broad and critical vision about what was going on in the world. 102 00:06:11.502 --> 00:06:18.764 And he was able to create a very interesting model that could actually serve a lot of people. 103 00:06:19.544 --> 00:06:25.406 And so he had a talk to a lot of farmers and a lot of people working on the commons. 104 00:06:25.946 --> 00:06:27.887 And then he found out, 105 00:06:28.147 --> 00:06:28.327 well, 106 00:06:28.387 --> 00:06:32.868 what if I create a community-serving model in which also... 107 00:06:33.400 --> 00:06:45.711 people can have a direct contribution into the transitioning to a new way of farming and therefore also creating a fair food system. 108 00:06:46.151 --> 00:06:46.552 Amazing, 109 00:06:46.612 --> 00:06:46.752 yeah. 110 00:06:46.992 --> 00:06:47.813 That's amazing, 111 00:06:47.913 --> 00:06:48.073 yeah. 112 00:06:48.914 --> 00:06:55.199 And I want to come back later to the Lend-a-Land model and really try to understand in detail how it works and all of that. 113 00:06:55.239 --> 00:06:56.020 But before we do that, 114 00:06:56.300 --> 00:07:00.104 I'd love to start by kind of setting the stage on the topic of... 115 00:07:00.404 --> 00:07:03.086 access to land and the declining number of farmers. 116 00:07:03.126 --> 00:07:04.427 I wanted to ask you this question. 117 00:07:06.488 --> 00:07:08.570 What do you see as the main reason for that trend? 118 00:07:09.690 --> 00:07:19.397 I think the declining number of farmers largely can be attributed actually to the economic challenges the farming faces. 119 00:07:20.097 --> 00:07:25.121 Current farming is really industrialized and very capital intensive. 120 00:07:26.582 --> 00:07:29.984 And that creates a lot of barriers for small scale farmers. 121 00:07:30.064 --> 00:07:31.205 traditional farmers. 122 00:07:32.245 --> 00:07:38.267 So it creates barriers for people within farming families to take over from their parents, 123 00:07:38.788 --> 00:07:43.970 but also creates barriers for new farmers to enter the stage, 124 00:07:44.070 --> 00:07:44.430 actually. 125 00:07:46.251 --> 00:07:48.812 And I think it's also a culture or image problem. 126 00:07:48.892 --> 00:07:54.054 I think many young people perceive farming as like low income, 127 00:07:54.354 --> 00:07:59.056 high risk profession with a lot of uncertainty because 128 00:07:59.276 --> 00:08:05.321 policy is so moving around all the time and has done a lot of damage, 129 00:08:05.361 --> 00:08:05.721 I think, 130 00:08:05.801 --> 00:08:06.022 too. 131 00:08:06.602 --> 00:08:07.443 And at the same time, 132 00:08:07.463 --> 00:08:09.044 you have to work really, 133 00:08:09.124 --> 00:08:09.825 really hard. 134 00:08:11.186 --> 00:08:11.526 And that's, 135 00:08:11.726 --> 00:08:12.046 I think, 136 00:08:12.106 --> 00:08:14.088 therefore it makes for people, 137 00:08:14.148 --> 00:08:16.770 it's an unattractive career path. 138 00:08:18.071 --> 00:08:20.373 And a very big other problem, 139 00:08:20.433 --> 00:08:23.135 and that's also a reason why Lentiland was founded, 140 00:08:23.195 --> 00:08:23.556 is that 141 00:08:23.980 --> 00:08:27.442 The access to land is very difficult because farming land, 142 00:08:27.522 --> 00:08:28.683 especially in the Netherlands, 143 00:08:28.823 --> 00:08:32.845 I think the farming land in the Netherlands is the most expensive of Europe. 144 00:08:33.766 --> 00:08:34.166 Therefore, 145 00:08:34.206 --> 00:08:39.149 it's hardly impossible to buy land to start your own farm. 146 00:08:39.829 --> 00:08:42.731 And there is not a lot of support for new entrants. 147 00:08:43.171 --> 00:08:45.493 It's very capital intensive business. 148 00:08:47.574 --> 00:08:47.694 Yeah, 149 00:08:47.774 --> 00:08:50.636 and I think all these factors create like... 150 00:08:51.416 --> 00:08:56.379 pretty big decline in the amount of farmers. 151 00:08:56.439 --> 00:08:57.119 That's the reason why, 152 00:08:57.399 --> 00:08:57.620 I mean, 153 00:08:57.700 --> 00:09:05.144 it seems to be easier for really large land owners and farm managers to acquire more land when a farm goes on sale, 154 00:09:05.584 --> 00:09:08.866 rather than for a young farmer or someone who's not from a farming background, 155 00:09:08.866 --> 00:09:12.688 but really wants to get into farming to actually acquire that land. 156 00:09:12.828 --> 00:09:14.089 It's much easier. 157 00:09:14.329 --> 00:09:19.252 You mentioned a lot of barriers for succession and for... 158 00:09:20.396 --> 00:09:21.576 Young farmers getting into farming. 159 00:09:22.177 --> 00:09:25.998 Could you maybe give us a bit more detail about what kind of barriers we're talking about? 160 00:09:26.738 --> 00:09:26.858 Well, 161 00:09:26.898 --> 00:09:29.439 what I was talking about is like the price of land, 162 00:09:29.479 --> 00:09:30.459 which is really high. 163 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:36.861 So you need big loans even to take over the company or the farm of your own parents. 164 00:09:37.341 --> 00:09:39.622 And these big loans have a lot of interest. 165 00:09:39.982 --> 00:09:41.802 Their interest rate is also high. 166 00:09:42.342 --> 00:09:48.124 So that makes that you start out with already a very big amount of money. 167 00:09:49.272 --> 00:09:52.394 You have to create as revenue every month. 168 00:09:53.335 --> 00:10:01.480 So then the only solution is mostly that you put a very intensive way of farming on the field, 169 00:10:02.461 --> 00:10:10.926 which is also very costly because the only way to create this intensive farming is with pesticides and with fertilizers. 170 00:10:11.567 --> 00:10:13.148 And then the farm is not... 171 00:10:13.968 --> 00:10:19.332 creating the income but actually all the other parties surrounding them are creating the income. 172 00:10:20.392 --> 00:10:32.380 Sorry I'm trying to understand why the fact that land is so expensive and that you have to take such a big loan with high interest to buy it means that you necessarily have to go into intensive farming. 173 00:10:34.342 --> 00:10:37.624 Is it because the bank kind of only agrees to give you that loan if you 174 00:10:37.808 --> 00:10:54.840 propose a business plan that include that kind of farming or yeah yeah that's also a problem regenerative farming is in some way it's it's old but it's also pretty new so the business bottles have not proven itself yet banks 175 00:10:54.940 --> 00:11:06.628 are very risk averse and i think they are also not that progressive in looking at these kind of business models so they think it's high risk but the 176 00:11:07.108 --> 00:11:25.945 the the funny part is that it's actually low risk because you are investing a lot of value in creating healthy soil that on the long term will actually help you out it makes you re-silent against all kinds of climates it's 177 00:11:25.945 --> 00:11:34.072 kind of crazy when you think about it because degrading your productive capital which is your soil is viewed as a safe investment which is in 178 00:11:34.492 --> 00:11:35.272 economics should be, 179 00:11:35.493 --> 00:11:35.753 I mean, 180 00:11:36.113 --> 00:11:36.673 just a no-no, 181 00:11:36.953 --> 00:11:37.174 right? 182 00:11:37.274 --> 00:11:37.414 Yeah. 183 00:11:37.554 --> 00:11:38.894 Destroying your productive capital. 184 00:11:38.995 --> 00:11:39.155 Yeah. 185 00:11:39.455 --> 00:11:40.175 And the opposite, 186 00:11:40.195 --> 00:11:41.236 which is regenerating it, 187 00:11:41.436 --> 00:11:42.937 making it more resilient for the future, 188 00:11:42.977 --> 00:11:44.257 is seen as a risky investment. 189 00:11:44.357 --> 00:11:45.138 It's kind of a... 190 00:11:45.418 --> 00:11:45.978 It's crazy. 191 00:11:46.238 --> 00:11:46.739 Upside down, 192 00:11:46.779 --> 00:11:46.899 right? 193 00:11:46.899 --> 00:11:47.299 Yeah. 194 00:11:47.299 --> 00:11:51.381 And I cannot understand that we are still talking about this. 195 00:11:52.202 --> 00:12:00.986 And I really cannot understand that still a lot of banks don't get this because they have all the knowledge. 196 00:12:01.227 --> 00:12:02.807 So why don't they, 197 00:12:03.108 --> 00:12:03.488 you know... 198 00:12:05.168 --> 00:12:07.089 invite us to talk it over. 199 00:12:07.249 --> 00:12:09.230 Why don't they look at our business models? 200 00:12:09.390 --> 00:12:15.092 Although we have not maybe factually proven it because we don't exist long enough, 201 00:12:15.813 --> 00:12:16.113 but then, 202 00:12:16.193 --> 00:12:16.513 okay, 203 00:12:16.813 --> 00:12:25.257 maybe they come back in a couple of years and we will prove that these business models can be very successful eventually. 204 00:12:25.337 --> 00:12:29.358 And then it really matters because that's one of the biggest problems. 205 00:12:29.438 --> 00:12:33.500 That's also one of the problems why I left the supermarket business. 206 00:12:34.040 --> 00:12:40.924 Because the focus is solely on financial value creation. 207 00:12:42.104 --> 00:12:48.328 And that's a very riskful way of thinking with everything that is going on in this world. 208 00:12:48.688 --> 00:12:48.808 Yeah, 209 00:12:49.168 --> 00:12:55.331 not looking at the long-term resilience of a system in the face of climate change is actually very risky. 210 00:12:55.351 --> 00:12:57.693 Because if we proceed on this path, 211 00:12:57.813 --> 00:13:03.396 then eventually we won't even have soil to produce any food anymore. 212 00:13:03.556 --> 00:13:03.676 Yeah. 213 00:13:04.068 --> 00:13:04.448 We know, 214 00:13:04.829 --> 00:13:08.030 people accept now as a fact that we only have a certain number of harvests left, 215 00:13:08.111 --> 00:13:08.231 what, 216 00:13:08.311 --> 00:13:09.992 50 harvests left or something like that. 217 00:13:10.052 --> 00:13:12.853 Because if we continue on the same trajectory, 218 00:13:13.514 --> 00:13:15.295 in 50 years there will be no more soil. 219 00:13:15.975 --> 00:13:17.636 It's crazy that we just accept that as a fact. 220 00:13:17.876 --> 00:13:18.037 Yeah, 221 00:13:18.257 --> 00:13:18.797 it's crazy. 222 00:13:18.897 --> 00:13:20.418 And the loss of biodiversity. 223 00:13:21.238 --> 00:13:21.779 But also, 224 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:29.283 and that I think we need more to see more about the relationship between the health of the soil and the health of our own guts. 225 00:13:30.464 --> 00:13:36.530 also our health costs are outrageously increasing. 226 00:13:37.171 --> 00:13:38.212 And this is, 227 00:13:38.612 --> 00:13:39.573 at a certain point, 228 00:13:39.734 --> 00:13:42.637 we cannot pay for this anymore as a society. 229 00:13:43.618 --> 00:13:51.626 And therefore we need to take into account what solution also for that matter regenerative farming can be. 230 00:13:52.950 --> 00:13:55.552 Because it has a higher nutrient density. 231 00:13:56.273 --> 00:13:58.674 It has far more diversity, 232 00:13:58.754 --> 00:14:01.296 which is good for your guts. 233 00:14:01.877 --> 00:14:02.017 And 234 00:14:02.497 --> 00:14:12.344 I'm stating this because I believe that there are more people concerned about their own health than there may be people concerned about the health of the planet. 235 00:14:12.984 --> 00:14:17.027 And I don't care which way we are going to achieve this, 236 00:14:17.587 --> 00:14:20.189 but we have to achieve it. 237 00:14:20.750 --> 00:14:20.870 So... 238 00:14:21.410 --> 00:14:21.810 Therefore, 239 00:14:21.930 --> 00:14:24.652 also this part of our own well-being, 240 00:14:24.692 --> 00:14:30.076 our own health in relation to this way of farming is important to make or to state. 241 00:14:30.356 --> 00:14:30.477 Yeah, 242 00:14:30.737 --> 00:14:30.857 yeah, 243 00:14:31.097 --> 00:14:31.517 absolutely. 244 00:14:33.339 --> 00:14:39.663 Let me just take a very short break from this conversation to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast, 245 00:14:40.143 --> 00:14:40.844 Soil Capital. 246 00:14:41.584 --> 00:14:43.706 So Soil Capital is a company that promotes... 247 00:14:43.826 --> 00:14:49.648 the transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve the health of their soils. 248 00:14:50.328 --> 00:14:51.488 They're a really cool company. 249 00:14:51.528 --> 00:14:55.929 I'm a big fan and I'm super proud to be partnering with them for the podcast. 250 00:14:57.830 --> 00:14:58.210 So yeah, 251 00:14:58.330 --> 00:14:59.671 so far we've established that, 252 00:15:00.151 --> 00:15:00.311 well, 253 00:15:00.571 --> 00:15:02.371 there's a declining number of farmers. 254 00:15:02.992 --> 00:15:07.533 That farming is often seen not as a very attractive career for young people. 255 00:15:09.173 --> 00:15:10.634 And for those who choose farming, 256 00:15:10.954 --> 00:15:11.434 whether it's... 257 00:15:11.694 --> 00:15:28.283 inheriting a farm or whether it's getting into farming it's there's a lot of um obstacle to the path there it's very difficult to get access to land because it's extremely expensive yeah and if we acknowledge that this is a problem that we need to reverse it 258 00:15:28.303 --> 00:15:40.990 tells me two things that one we need to make farming much more attractive as a profession and we need to sort of create pathways to accessing lands and farms for people who want to right and 259 00:15:41.426 --> 00:15:42.206 As far as I know, 260 00:15:42.346 --> 00:15:44.828 this is kind of the heart of what you're doing with Lintelant, 261 00:15:44.828 --> 00:15:44.988 right? 262 00:15:45.008 --> 00:15:45.128 Yeah, 263 00:15:45.548 --> 00:15:46.488 exactly. 264 00:15:46.488 --> 00:15:46.728 Great. 265 00:15:47.089 --> 00:15:47.869 I'm on the right path, 266 00:15:47.909 --> 00:15:48.249 at least. 267 00:15:48.469 --> 00:15:49.770 You are on the right path. 268 00:15:49.830 --> 00:15:50.130 So yeah, 269 00:15:50.130 --> 00:15:53.311 I would love it if you could explain the model. 270 00:15:53.511 --> 00:15:54.072 How does it work? 271 00:15:54.852 --> 00:15:55.012 Yeah, 272 00:15:55.132 --> 00:15:55.332 well, 273 00:15:55.832 --> 00:15:57.093 maybe one step back, 274 00:15:57.173 --> 00:16:08.358 like our organization was indeed founded to explore how land stewardship can be reimagined to support regenerative farming. 275 00:16:08.894 --> 00:16:12.136 but also inclusive farming models, 276 00:16:12.536 --> 00:16:22.241 because sometimes the critic of this way of farming is is that it can be a little bit elite and you have to have quite some money to afford this kind of food. 277 00:16:22.922 --> 00:16:27.804 But our farms work for instance with solidarity payment, 278 00:16:28.305 --> 00:16:36.669 so people also with less money can buy the food and other people with more farm with money can then actually pay for the people with lesser food. 279 00:16:36.669 --> 00:16:37.870 So this inclusivity. 280 00:16:38.354 --> 00:16:40.436 Also in the way you can participate, 281 00:16:40.736 --> 00:16:44.219 I think it's a really strong key factor. 282 00:16:46.961 --> 00:16:50.705 And that it is focused on creating benefit for everything, 283 00:16:50.905 --> 00:16:53.607 all living creatures is also very powerful. 284 00:16:53.987 --> 00:16:56.049 And that you take care together with, 285 00:16:56.049 --> 00:16:56.289 you know, 286 00:16:57.230 --> 00:17:01.914 the principle of the commons is also a very big part of Lentiland. 287 00:17:02.635 --> 00:17:06.158 And what we did is we created a foundation. 288 00:17:06.718 --> 00:17:11.080 that actually gives out the loans for every farm, 289 00:17:11.120 --> 00:17:12.781 and every farm is a cooperative. 290 00:17:13.361 --> 00:17:17.302 They give out the loans for the cooperative to buy the farm. 291 00:17:19.563 --> 00:17:21.384 And then the farm is then, 292 00:17:21.924 --> 00:17:22.945 from that moment, 293 00:17:22.965 --> 00:17:27.627 a cooperative that can give out certificates for the community to buy. 294 00:17:28.327 --> 00:17:31.548 So the farm eventually becomes community-owned. 295 00:17:32.289 --> 00:17:34.569 And these certificate holders, 296 00:17:34.609 --> 00:17:35.450 so the community, 297 00:17:35.470 --> 00:17:35.890 they're going to be, 298 00:17:36.030 --> 00:17:38.991 is then the economic owner of the farm. 299 00:17:40.132 --> 00:17:44.293 The farmers are the creative owners of the farm. 300 00:17:44.854 --> 00:17:48.315 So they are the ones that can develop their own business plans. 301 00:17:48.935 --> 00:17:57.999 And then they are in the board of the farm and they do the daily management of everything they initiate. 302 00:17:59.380 --> 00:18:01.761 And then Lenteland is there as the, 303 00:18:02.861 --> 00:18:03.361 how do you call that, 304 00:18:03.522 --> 00:18:04.422 legal owner. 305 00:18:05.274 --> 00:18:07.635 to not actually Lentiland itself, 306 00:18:07.715 --> 00:18:09.295 but the mission of Lentiland, 307 00:18:09.695 --> 00:18:14.076 in order to ensure that for at least 200 years ahead, 308 00:18:14.877 --> 00:18:16.397 so seven generations, 309 00:18:16.457 --> 00:18:19.898 it's a more of indigenous way of taking care, 310 00:18:20.838 --> 00:18:30.201 we ensure that this way of farming practice that actually benefits ecosystems will be practiced on this farm. 311 00:18:31.221 --> 00:18:34.622 So you have the three-party way of ownership. 312 00:18:35.514 --> 00:18:40.321 And I think that is a very solid way of running the farm. 313 00:18:41.704 --> 00:18:45.930 And we ensure that the farmers have their base income. 314 00:18:47.074 --> 00:18:51.918 So and get also the loans for the exploitation of the farm. 315 00:18:52.478 --> 00:19:01.045 So they don't have to worry in the first years that they're making losses because everything is an investment for the future. 316 00:19:01.726 --> 00:19:05.709 And we now see that around in five years or so, 317 00:19:06.750 --> 00:19:10.613 the farmers break even and begins to make the first profit. 318 00:19:11.214 --> 00:19:16.358 And then the farmers and the certificate holders profit can be beneficial to them. 319 00:19:16.638 --> 00:19:33.931 them as well yeah yeah okay yeah so initially you said that the cooperative is is securing a loan right yeah the the uh how you call that foundation of land to land is a foundation securing the law alone and the national cooperative that's what i i'm also working for is 320 00:19:34.051 --> 00:19:43.298 there to support the farms to help them in starting up to advise them on the business plans um and on the daily management and also 321 00:19:44.018 --> 00:19:44.559 Eventually, 322 00:19:44.739 --> 00:19:51.884 we'll be helping them out once the production will be at a certain stage. 323 00:19:52.424 --> 00:19:55.846 Then together with other farms of Lenteland, 324 00:19:56.327 --> 00:20:00.410 we can maybe make a joint venture of processing food, 325 00:20:01.010 --> 00:20:03.272 doing distribution and sales. 326 00:20:03.732 --> 00:20:04.072 Actually, 327 00:20:04.212 --> 00:20:09.136 the Lenteland Corporation is also a development vehicle for that. 328 00:20:09.816 --> 00:20:10.677 At the same time, 329 00:20:10.717 --> 00:20:12.398 maybe that's also good to state. 330 00:20:12.802 --> 00:20:17.765 is that the Lente Land Corporation is also a means for people to invest in. 331 00:20:18.586 --> 00:20:24.750 Usually people that want to invest in more than one farm or live a little bit further away from a farm. 332 00:20:25.351 --> 00:20:28.773 They can also buy certificates in the national corporation. 333 00:20:29.293 --> 00:20:35.437 And the national corporation is then buying certificates of all the Lente Land farms. 334 00:20:36.158 --> 00:20:42.302 And the other part of the budget then goes to giving out loans for the exploitation of the farm. 335 00:20:42.850 --> 00:20:43.070 Okay, 336 00:20:43.471 --> 00:20:44.912 so there's two levels of investments. 337 00:20:44.952 --> 00:20:48.155 Either you can invest in the national company. 338 00:20:48.575 --> 00:20:49.736 Or direct in a farm. 339 00:20:49.936 --> 00:20:50.877 In a specific farm, 340 00:20:51.037 --> 00:20:51.318 right? 341 00:20:51.678 --> 00:20:51.798 Yeah. 342 00:20:52.379 --> 00:20:54.380 How do you find investors? 343 00:20:55.661 --> 00:20:58.404 What is usually the draw, 344 00:20:58.564 --> 00:20:59.665 the thing that brings them in? 345 00:20:59.845 --> 00:20:59.965 Well, 346 00:21:00.005 --> 00:21:00.246 actually, 347 00:21:00.266 --> 00:21:02.187 our farmers are responsible for that. 348 00:21:02.508 --> 00:21:02.908 Of course, 349 00:21:02.948 --> 00:21:03.789 we help them. 350 00:21:04.029 --> 00:21:06.411 And for the national corporation, 351 00:21:06.471 --> 00:21:07.572 we do that ourselves. 352 00:21:09.234 --> 00:21:09.654 I think... 353 00:21:09.794 --> 00:21:13.816 by creating more and more public awareness about regenerative farming, 354 00:21:13.996 --> 00:21:15.256 what Land Alliance is doing, 355 00:21:15.356 --> 00:21:29.082 why we think that this collective initiative and the way we make citizen investment in this way of farming possible to create more awareness about it. 356 00:21:29.362 --> 00:21:32.924 And we want to show people what the positive impact is. 357 00:21:33.704 --> 00:21:36.225 So we create meetups for people, 358 00:21:37.305 --> 00:21:38.426 all kinds of events. 359 00:21:39.058 --> 00:21:44.220 to inspire people and to show them which way they can participate. 360 00:21:44.580 --> 00:21:52.682 But we are now also starting an impact monitoring program because we really want to show on an ecological way, 361 00:21:52.782 --> 00:21:55.723 but also in the social impact we make, 362 00:21:56.064 --> 00:21:57.124 what the results are. 363 00:21:57.804 --> 00:22:02.005 And I think that will help gain more also investors. 364 00:22:02.386 --> 00:22:02.566 Right. 365 00:22:02.566 --> 00:22:03.426 If you can maybe really... 366 00:22:03.946 --> 00:22:23.083 transparent and have the data to really show the positive impact you're having is going to maybe motivate more investors to say okay this is a solid model here and I'm really happy to invest in this yeah how you can directly be part of the change I think that is really important and in terms of investors are we talking more about individuals who decide 367 00:22:23.083 --> 00:22:31.130 to invest in a local business or organizations who make bigger investments or is it both both but usually more citizens 368 00:22:31.526 --> 00:22:33.927 And I think that is the power of Lentoland too. 369 00:22:34.668 --> 00:22:47.895 And it's a really big achievement of our farmers because their stories and their hard work and also their vision on ecosystem restoration, 370 00:22:47.955 --> 00:22:50.816 what they're doing and the healthy food they create. 371 00:22:51.377 --> 00:22:57.020 I think nothing works better than that they share that. 372 00:22:57.800 --> 00:22:59.001 And at the same time, 373 00:22:59.421 --> 00:23:00.682 we also get support 374 00:23:01.178 --> 00:23:06.743 for starting up all these activities from a couple of bigger organizations. 375 00:23:07.164 --> 00:23:08.285 But in the end, 376 00:23:08.385 --> 00:23:10.767 we want to become independent. 377 00:23:11.427 --> 00:23:13.369 So if we have more farms, 378 00:23:13.629 --> 00:23:25.120 then the fee that every farm pays to us for all the support will be enough to ensure that we can keep on supporting them also in future. 379 00:23:26.060 --> 00:23:26.280 Okay, 380 00:23:27.020 --> 00:23:30.621 as a small individual who doesn't have much budget but wants to get involved, 381 00:23:30.621 --> 00:23:31.402 is this still possible? 382 00:23:31.442 --> 00:23:33.482 What is the kind of smallest investment you can... 383 00:23:33.502 --> 00:23:33.662 Yeah, 384 00:23:33.862 --> 00:23:37.943 usually we start out with five certificates of 100 euros. 385 00:23:38.043 --> 00:23:42.365 So your investment will cost you then 500 euros. 386 00:23:43.125 --> 00:23:43.885 And that is, 387 00:23:44.745 --> 00:23:44.865 yeah, 388 00:23:45.445 --> 00:23:49.306 that is the amount of money you need to get in. 389 00:23:50.207 --> 00:23:54.928 But it can have either your budget you want to invest. 390 00:23:55.208 --> 00:23:55.388 Okay, 391 00:23:55.408 --> 00:23:58.670 you can obviously from that's the minimum and then you can invest as much as you want. 392 00:23:58.770 --> 00:23:59.370 Yeah, 393 00:23:59.670 --> 00:24:01.151 not as much as you want. 394 00:24:01.952 --> 00:24:02.992 Because of course, 395 00:24:03.052 --> 00:24:10.856 we don't want one person to have the certificates of all because we want the you know, 396 00:24:10.976 --> 00:24:14.818 everybody should be be able to participate. 397 00:24:15.258 --> 00:24:16.479 But I think you understand. 398 00:24:16.539 --> 00:24:16.819 Okay, 399 00:24:17.059 --> 00:24:17.279 yeah. 400 00:24:17.700 --> 00:24:17.880 And 401 00:24:19.436 --> 00:24:20.416 How do you participate then? 402 00:24:20.876 --> 00:24:25.218 Let's imagine we're a few hundred different investors from the community living around that farm. 403 00:24:25.278 --> 00:24:28.458 We all decided that it was a worthwhile investment for us. 404 00:24:29.879 --> 00:24:34.940 Do we actually participate in decision making or how does it work for me? 405 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:35.200 Yeah, 406 00:24:35.340 --> 00:24:38.841 to a certain extent you can participate in what's going on. 407 00:24:39.141 --> 00:24:45.123 But the farmer is the creative owner of his own plan. 408 00:24:45.903 --> 00:24:48.784 And he will consult you about things. 409 00:24:48.784 --> 00:24:49.064 Yes. 410 00:24:49.636 --> 00:24:56.361 And if there are really big investments or maybe also adjustments made to the plan, 411 00:24:56.922 --> 00:25:00.525 that will be shared with the certificate holders, 412 00:25:00.625 --> 00:25:02.246 with the co-owners of the farm. 413 00:25:04.127 --> 00:25:04.428 And then, 414 00:25:04.568 --> 00:25:05.048 of course, 415 00:25:05.148 --> 00:25:11.033 every year you look at the budget together and to the results together. 416 00:25:11.513 --> 00:25:14.275 But I think participating is far more... 417 00:25:15.972 --> 00:25:24.635 in attaining fruits and vegetables from the farm or sleeping over or getting a tour or working together on the land. 418 00:25:24.815 --> 00:25:33.297 I think that is far more relevant usually for people as a reason to become a co-owner. 419 00:25:33.637 --> 00:25:37.979 Okay so if you are a co-owner you get invited to activities like that? 420 00:25:38.179 --> 00:25:41.860 You participate into the farm or is that something extra that you can decide to do? 421 00:25:42.120 --> 00:25:42.240 Yeah, 422 00:25:42.520 --> 00:25:44.562 that's something extra you can decide to do. 423 00:25:44.802 --> 00:25:47.004 So there is no obligation. 424 00:25:47.724 --> 00:25:50.346 So it's also not the case, 425 00:25:50.926 --> 00:25:52.828 comparing to some other initiatives, 426 00:25:53.328 --> 00:25:57.331 that you can only become a customer if you are a co-owner, 427 00:25:57.471 --> 00:25:59.853 that is all separated from each other, 428 00:26:00.353 --> 00:26:05.156 to create the most inclusive model as possible. 429 00:26:05.957 --> 00:26:09.780 And I think that's also very needed in order to 430 00:26:10.576 --> 00:26:11.016 I don't know, 431 00:26:11.116 --> 00:26:22.383 inspire and convince a lot of different people and invite people to get a feeling about what's going on on the farm. 432 00:26:23.183 --> 00:26:23.343 Okay, 433 00:26:23.343 --> 00:26:25.884 so that's from the investor side. 434 00:26:26.545 --> 00:26:27.405 Now for the farmers, 435 00:26:27.445 --> 00:26:30.127 you said that you were in the process now of selecting a farmer. 436 00:26:30.227 --> 00:26:31.428 So how does that work? 437 00:26:32.928 --> 00:26:33.108 Well, 438 00:26:33.188 --> 00:26:39.392 what we usually do is we set out the role description. 439 00:26:40.728 --> 00:26:41.669 For most of the farms, 440 00:26:41.669 --> 00:26:43.410 that's of course the same. 441 00:26:44.171 --> 00:26:47.973 So there are certain standards which we ask for. 442 00:26:49.154 --> 00:26:56.139 I think it's a very complex job to be a farmer and especially a farmer of a multifunctional farm. 443 00:26:56.619 --> 00:26:58.200 So you need a lot of skills. 444 00:26:59.541 --> 00:27:00.161 And therefore, 445 00:27:00.202 --> 00:27:03.023 we actually are looking for teams of farmers. 446 00:27:03.544 --> 00:27:06.686 It's absolutely not possible to do this on your own. 447 00:27:07.366 --> 00:27:09.408 You don't want to do this on your own. 448 00:27:11.133 --> 00:27:12.774 So we're looking for different skills, 449 00:27:12.894 --> 00:27:17.777 like a very practical and theoretical knowledge about regenerative farming. 450 00:27:18.337 --> 00:27:22.359 So it's about embodied knowledge too. 451 00:27:22.520 --> 00:27:28.763 You have to have the experience of working on the land in order for yourself to know if you're able, 452 00:27:28.823 --> 00:27:30.104 capable of doing this. 453 00:27:30.184 --> 00:27:36.128 If your physical health makes it doable. 454 00:27:36.856 --> 00:27:38.237 If you really like it, 455 00:27:38.558 --> 00:27:39.659 if you also like it, 456 00:27:39.679 --> 00:27:41.160 not only when the sun shines, 457 00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.023 but also it's really like the more normal 458 00:27:45.363 --> 00:27:45.964 Dutch weather. 459 00:27:47.105 --> 00:27:52.069 It can be rather wet and a little bit gray. 460 00:27:53.010 --> 00:27:53.971 And at the same time, 461 00:27:53.991 --> 00:27:57.654 you also need knowledge about financial modeling. 462 00:27:58.294 --> 00:27:59.615 And more especially, 463 00:27:59.715 --> 00:28:02.257 you have to have entrepreneurship in you. 464 00:28:02.438 --> 00:28:05.040 I think what we found out these past years. 465 00:28:05.528 --> 00:28:09.971 is that that is one of the factors that really makes or breaks the success. 466 00:28:10.671 --> 00:28:14.874 So if you are willing and capable of taking risk, 467 00:28:15.054 --> 00:28:16.635 of doing pilots, 468 00:28:16.755 --> 00:28:18.035 trying new things, 469 00:28:18.556 --> 00:28:23.259 and then adjusting it to the situation you are facing, 470 00:28:24.199 --> 00:28:32.444 but that you are also good in communication skills because you are the one as a head farmer that is also responsible for the crowdfunding. 471 00:28:32.892 --> 00:28:33.153 you know, 472 00:28:33.294 --> 00:28:35.443 to attract the co-owners of the farm. 473 00:28:36.674 --> 00:28:53.107 and therefore you uh you must like it to share your story and to give presentations and tours and tell people um about your vision so yeah that's already and that's and then i'm not even done so yeah 474 00:28:53.107 --> 00:28:57.790 you imagine and because we found out this is a difficult 475 00:28:58.622 --> 00:28:59.022 I think, 476 00:28:59.222 --> 00:28:59.943 assignment. 477 00:29:00.683 --> 00:29:10.248 We also want to help farmers on their path to this because it's a life-changing decision to choose to become a regenerative farmer. 478 00:29:11.029 --> 00:29:16.972 And we want to help people on this path by now starting a year program. 479 00:29:17.132 --> 00:29:18.733 So starting from January, 480 00:29:18.893 --> 00:29:23.035 we're offering this to people who have interest in to become a farmer. 481 00:29:23.515 --> 00:29:28.158 So we're going to help them in theoretical knowledge, 482 00:29:29.026 --> 00:29:32.809 We want to create places on farms where they can do internships, 483 00:29:32.989 --> 00:29:34.330 gain the practical knowledge, 484 00:29:34.750 --> 00:29:38.293 but also in creating strong teams. 485 00:29:38.593 --> 00:29:39.654 So in the networking, 486 00:29:39.754 --> 00:29:47.080 finding people who you want to do this together with and helping them with their statement purpose, 487 00:29:47.140 --> 00:29:49.822 with their holistic life view. 488 00:29:51.083 --> 00:29:55.746 I think it's important to have a good view on that for yourself. 489 00:29:55.866 --> 00:30:13.293 before you start because it helps in i think finding people that align with that okay so yeah on the one hand you have uh so this selection process so if i retrace the the steps here you you buy the farm and then you look for the farmer yeah 490 00:30:13.473 --> 00:30:24.878 um and so yeah this is how it went how it went so far yeah and maybe in future we will find a community that's already found a farm and uh or a farmer that 491 00:30:25.078 --> 00:30:28.521 wants a farm and is really suitable for the job. 492 00:30:28.921 --> 00:30:32.404 So I think it can have different forms. 493 00:30:32.464 --> 00:30:32.705 Okay, 494 00:30:32.865 --> 00:30:32.985 yeah, 495 00:30:33.005 --> 00:30:34.346 that's the current one is this. 496 00:30:34.366 --> 00:30:35.147 You buy a farm, 497 00:30:35.247 --> 00:30:37.249 then you have applications from farmers, 498 00:30:37.249 --> 00:30:40.732 they have to propose an application with a plan of what they're going to do with the farm. 499 00:30:41.412 --> 00:30:42.713 Explain who the team is, 500 00:30:42.853 --> 00:30:43.974 what is their experience, 501 00:30:44.014 --> 00:30:45.075 their vision for the farm. 502 00:30:45.396 --> 00:30:45.556 Yeah, 503 00:30:45.596 --> 00:30:46.497 they write a letter, 504 00:30:46.597 --> 00:30:48.278 they write their motivation, 505 00:30:48.378 --> 00:30:50.880 they send in their CV, 506 00:30:51.321 --> 00:30:52.462 their curriculum vitae. 507 00:30:53.038 --> 00:30:59.620 and already a base plan for the place they want to start with or to start at. 508 00:31:00.080 --> 00:31:03.081 And then we have interviews online, 509 00:31:04.021 --> 00:31:12.704 there's an information gathering on the farm so people can really connect to the place and feel if they can root there. 510 00:31:14.124 --> 00:31:18.185 And then we have presentations of plants with each other, 511 00:31:18.285 --> 00:31:19.686 which is really special actually, 512 00:31:20.086 --> 00:31:20.826 because normally 513 00:31:21.346 --> 00:31:36.278 in these kind of interview processes everything is separated and we choose to actually bring together all the solicitants so they can also you know gain ideas from each other. 514 00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:43.104 Okay so if they don't end up not getting the farm but they've met the team who did maybe they can learn from what the proposition was. 515 00:31:43.124 --> 00:31:49.970 Yeah and they can proceed in realizing their dream and another good part about this is that we ask them 516 00:31:50.698 --> 00:31:54.401 Who do you think that fits here best? 517 00:31:54.862 --> 00:31:55.242 Right. 518 00:31:55.282 --> 00:31:55.402 Oh, 519 00:31:55.402 --> 00:31:58.004 that's a tough question because you're probably very passionate. 520 00:31:58.004 --> 00:32:00.566 You have to go out of yourself and really look, 521 00:32:00.646 --> 00:32:00.847 okay, 522 00:32:01.247 --> 00:32:05.871 what is best for this place and what is best for the community actually. 523 00:32:08.273 --> 00:32:09.414 I have a tiny, 524 00:32:09.634 --> 00:32:11.315 tiny favor to ask from you. 525 00:32:11.996 --> 00:32:14.438 If you're enjoying this conversation and you would like to support... 526 00:32:14.758 --> 00:32:16.219 my work and this podcast, 527 00:32:16.219 --> 00:32:18.441 you can actually do that in just five seconds. 528 00:32:19.161 --> 00:32:22.343 Whichever platform you're using right now to listen to this episode, 529 00:32:22.704 --> 00:32:28.307 just click on the deep seat page and then click on the subscribe or follow button. 530 00:32:28.748 --> 00:32:30.829 It actually makes a huge difference for me, 531 00:32:31.109 --> 00:32:39.195 for the growth of the podcast and for my ability to keep bringing high quality conversations with amazing guests to your ears every week. 532 00:32:40.015 --> 00:32:43.037 Thank you so much in advance and let's get back to the conversation. 533 00:32:45.210 --> 00:32:46.231 You're also looking ahead. 534 00:32:46.691 --> 00:32:48.652 You know that you're going to be starting new farms. 535 00:32:48.672 --> 00:32:52.375 You said that you already have the sixth and seventh one in the plans. 536 00:32:53.436 --> 00:32:55.937 And so you're already thinking of the next generation of farmers. 537 00:32:55.957 --> 00:33:05.944 You're already proposing trainings on the different farms so that you're sort of training young farmers to be in the best possible situation to make a great proposal for future farms. 538 00:33:06.124 --> 00:33:06.324 Right. 539 00:33:08.005 --> 00:33:08.766 That's really cool. 540 00:33:10.347 --> 00:33:10.487 Yeah. 541 00:33:11.107 --> 00:33:14.570 So how do you see this model? 542 00:33:15.162 --> 00:33:15.582 growing. 543 00:33:17.143 --> 00:33:21.605 Sort of what is your vision for the future of Lentoland and this specific model? 544 00:33:22.145 --> 00:33:22.385 Well, 545 00:33:22.525 --> 00:33:23.626 if I dream, 546 00:33:23.746 --> 00:33:26.207 and you have to keep on dreaming because otherwise, 547 00:33:26.347 --> 00:33:26.467 yeah, 548 00:33:26.948 --> 00:33:27.428 what are you, 549 00:33:28.248 --> 00:33:29.929 what is life worth without dreaming, 550 00:33:30.009 --> 00:33:31.069 I sometimes think. 551 00:33:31.610 --> 00:33:31.830 Well, 552 00:33:34.011 --> 00:33:40.774 I really envision for the future that the food system has a human skill again and a human face. 553 00:33:41.394 --> 00:33:42.315 With farmers, 554 00:33:42.415 --> 00:33:54.164 and I think the farming job is actually far more attractive if you have the connection to your customers and for the customers to know who is growing your food. 555 00:33:54.805 --> 00:33:54.925 So 556 00:33:55.345 --> 00:33:55.865 I think, 557 00:33:56.586 --> 00:34:07.695 I hope that farming in future will be far more community oriented because I think current farmers are very lonely and I feel them. 558 00:34:09.427 --> 00:34:10.228 They are lonely. 559 00:34:10.488 --> 00:34:14.610 They have to work their asses off for a very low income. 560 00:34:15.170 --> 00:34:19.252 And I think these people are so important. 561 00:34:19.312 --> 00:34:21.714 And I'm now talking about all farmers. 562 00:34:22.174 --> 00:34:25.476 That's so important for our future, 563 00:34:25.576 --> 00:34:27.097 for our living environment. 564 00:34:27.637 --> 00:34:30.518 That actually they should have a stage. 565 00:34:30.999 --> 00:34:35.201 And they should be taken care of far more than we are doing now. 566 00:34:35.801 --> 00:34:38.783 We really need more solidarity in our... 567 00:34:39.483 --> 00:34:56.577 food system and I think regenerative farming with community-owned farms can help out on this matter and therefore we need to create more access to land and Lentoland cannot do this on its own so 568 00:34:56.698 --> 00:35:08.127 therefore I'm also reaching out to the banks but also to our government because they have to take their responsibility in this and it's actually going 569 00:35:08.367 --> 00:35:10.789 again the total wrong way. 570 00:35:11.329 --> 00:35:13.691 The government wants to invest in technology again, 571 00:35:14.271 --> 00:35:21.176 in technology above helping out supporting farmers long term in making this transition. 572 00:35:23.037 --> 00:35:25.499 But I think we also have to look to ourselves. 573 00:35:25.659 --> 00:35:31.623 Every one of us is a consumer and with everything you eat and everything you buy, 574 00:35:31.943 --> 00:35:32.884 where you buy it, 575 00:35:34.264 --> 00:35:35.345 it doesn't even matter. 576 00:35:35.405 --> 00:35:37.907 But every time you can make a vote. 577 00:35:38.467 --> 00:35:43.689 for which kind of food system you want and what impact you can make. 578 00:35:45.289 --> 00:35:46.069 So in the end, 579 00:35:46.249 --> 00:35:46.769 I think, 580 00:35:46.930 --> 00:35:51.051 and I dream of a change of culture and 581 00:35:51.771 --> 00:35:55.192 I hope that what is valued is, 582 00:35:56.912 --> 00:35:57.373 I think, 583 00:35:57.813 --> 00:36:01.234 healthy guts above Gucci bags, 584 00:36:01.454 --> 00:36:05.795 above having a very nice phone and that we realize that 585 00:36:06.483 --> 00:36:16.248 Our own health is so precious that that way even we want to support this new farming system. 586 00:36:16.869 --> 00:36:17.109 Right. 587 00:36:17.469 --> 00:36:17.709 Yes. 588 00:36:18.350 --> 00:36:21.611 And the farmers that you're working with, 589 00:36:22.832 --> 00:36:27.775 if you compare them to like other farmers that you've met and you said that their situation is really difficult. 590 00:36:28.435 --> 00:36:30.136 They're struggling sometimes physically, 591 00:36:30.256 --> 00:36:30.636 mentally, 592 00:36:31.317 --> 00:36:31.817 economically. 593 00:36:32.777 --> 00:36:35.559 Do you find that by farming regeneratively? 594 00:36:35.979 --> 00:36:43.741 as part of a team and in a community-based model that they are better off physically, 595 00:36:43.861 --> 00:36:44.301 mentally, 596 00:36:44.481 --> 00:36:44.942 financially? 597 00:36:46.422 --> 00:36:47.502 It's a tough question. 598 00:36:47.502 --> 00:36:47.662 Yeah, 599 00:36:47.802 --> 00:36:48.623 it's a tough question, 600 00:36:49.043 --> 00:36:49.943 not a tough question, 601 00:36:50.003 --> 00:36:52.584 but I think it's difficult for me to answer that. 602 00:36:53.704 --> 00:36:57.365 And I think our farmers should answer that themselves. 603 00:36:57.825 --> 00:36:58.565 But of course, 604 00:36:58.645 --> 00:37:03.967 we are aware of this and I think we pay rather a lot of attention. 605 00:37:04.751 --> 00:37:13.398 to their well-being and are concerned also about it because we know it's a tough job to start this kind of farms. 606 00:37:14.819 --> 00:37:19.523 But I think that the solidarity with the support of Lenteland, 607 00:37:19.583 --> 00:37:22.746 with the support of all the co-owners of the farm, 608 00:37:22.806 --> 00:37:26.429 with the support of everyone that's a customer of this farm, 609 00:37:27.029 --> 00:37:34.055 that everybody is actually literally carrying them in the steps they have to take. 610 00:37:35.451 --> 00:37:37.692 The model you're proposing here is really interesting, 611 00:37:37.793 --> 00:37:38.013 right? 612 00:37:38.153 --> 00:37:39.714 For all the reasons I just cited, 613 00:37:39.794 --> 00:37:42.115 because we're talking about regenerative farming, 614 00:37:42.655 --> 00:37:46.678 very diverse mixed models which are great for biodiversity, 615 00:37:46.778 --> 00:37:47.558 for the environment, 616 00:37:48.118 --> 00:37:49.439 they produce healthier products, 617 00:37:49.819 --> 00:37:52.121 they bring the community together around food and the farm, 618 00:37:52.141 --> 00:38:01.566 I mean they have all of these benefits and you've been able to grow it in just a few years to already almost seven farms in the near future. 619 00:38:03.055 --> 00:38:05.597 Do you see a potential for really growing much bigger? 620 00:38:06.037 --> 00:38:07.319 Do you not want that? 621 00:38:07.499 --> 00:38:09.801 Or is there a bottleneck to that happening? 622 00:38:11.822 --> 00:38:14.404 I think that bigger is not always better. 623 00:38:14.905 --> 00:38:20.549 But I think we can create a lot more places in the Netherlands. 624 00:38:20.730 --> 00:38:22.251 And eventually, 625 00:38:23.112 --> 00:38:30.958 we do hope that our model will be taken over by other people starting their own farms with this model. 626 00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:31.759 So... 627 00:38:32.339 --> 00:38:36.483 we are not here to make the Lentiland brand as big as possible. 628 00:38:36.563 --> 00:38:38.505 I think that's an important thing to state. 629 00:38:39.105 --> 00:38:44.090 I think it's also very different than what is in the old economy going on usually. 630 00:38:45.231 --> 00:38:54.239 But I think if we get this community interest and hopefully also interest from policymakers, 631 00:38:55.434 --> 00:39:00.759 I think then it is possible to create far more places and to scale up. 632 00:39:02.520 --> 00:39:02.780 And 633 00:39:03.381 --> 00:39:16.391 I really hope that once we are able to show more and more results about how these farms and how farmers in general can be the governors of our ecosystems, 634 00:39:16.551 --> 00:39:19.354 not only like only food producers. 635 00:39:19.894 --> 00:39:24.418 I think then we together can really create this tipping point. 636 00:39:25.259 --> 00:39:25.379 Yeah, 637 00:39:25.939 --> 00:39:27.901 I feel like the more you are, 638 00:39:27.921 --> 00:39:30.403 the more you can create synergies between farmers also, 639 00:39:30.483 --> 00:39:38.910 because the problem with small scale agroecological farms sometimes is that they want to introduce sometimes some crops that are great ecologically, 640 00:39:38.910 --> 00:39:40.452 but it's really hard to find a market for. 641 00:39:41.552 --> 00:39:46.176 And by having more farms who are producing all of these different types of crops, 642 00:39:46.196 --> 00:39:47.237 and then combining them, 643 00:39:47.978 --> 00:39:49.039 combining the processing, 644 00:39:49.099 --> 00:39:49.639 the packaging, 645 00:39:49.659 --> 00:39:51.841 all of these different aspects of the supply chain, 646 00:39:52.322 --> 00:39:52.562 you could... 647 00:39:52.762 --> 00:39:56.063 create opportunities for these products and for these farmers easier. 648 00:39:56.343 --> 00:39:56.503 Yeah, 649 00:39:56.623 --> 00:39:57.263 totally agree. 650 00:39:57.263 --> 00:40:12.307 And that's one of the reasons or one of the assignments for the Lentiland Corporation to eventually support all this processing and marketing of produce and doing it together, 651 00:40:12.388 --> 00:40:14.088 really creating a joint venture, 652 00:40:14.668 --> 00:40:16.209 beginning with Lentiland Farms, 653 00:40:16.309 --> 00:40:20.930 but I can imagine that other farmers in the region also can join. 654 00:40:20.930 --> 00:40:21.030 Yeah, 655 00:40:21.030 --> 00:40:21.330 absolutely. 656 00:40:21.474 --> 00:40:29.298 And what I see now already going on on some farms is that the region itself organizes it. 657 00:40:29.838 --> 00:40:33.920 So I think because of the big industrialization of the farms, 658 00:40:34.380 --> 00:40:37.201 the old short chain players, 659 00:40:37.741 --> 00:40:41.263 this whole system actually was forgotten about. 660 00:40:41.663 --> 00:40:44.404 And now it's building up itself again. 661 00:40:44.904 --> 00:40:46.465 So the farmers who have, 662 00:40:46.905 --> 00:40:47.406 for instance, 663 00:40:47.406 --> 00:40:48.046 the grain. 664 00:40:48.826 --> 00:40:50.687 The millers who can make, 665 00:40:50.828 --> 00:40:51.068 you know, 666 00:40:51.188 --> 00:40:57.092 wheat out of the grain and then working together with bakeries and et cetera, 667 00:40:57.132 --> 00:40:57.632 et cetera. 668 00:40:58.112 --> 00:41:07.279 And I think these are very inspiring initiatives that you now slowly see growing across the country and which are because 669 00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:10.701 I believe now more in the provinces, 670 00:41:11.181 --> 00:41:14.804 the province governments than in our national government, 671 00:41:14.864 --> 00:41:18.286 because they can still also financially support. 672 00:41:18.286 --> 00:41:20.447 support these kinds of initiatives. 673 00:41:20.507 --> 00:41:20.848 All right. 674 00:41:21.528 --> 00:41:22.389 Because you mentioned... 675 00:41:22.429 --> 00:41:23.349 And organize it. 676 00:41:23.489 --> 00:41:23.609 Yeah, 677 00:41:23.729 --> 00:41:24.630 help organize. 678 00:41:24.630 --> 00:41:24.750 Yeah, 679 00:41:24.730 --> 00:41:26.311 you talked about a couple of things. 680 00:41:26.371 --> 00:41:28.893 One is that you hope people replicate your model and two, 681 00:41:28.993 --> 00:41:31.334 that the government could get more involved. 682 00:41:31.574 --> 00:41:33.756 What stops them from replicating that model, 683 00:41:34.156 --> 00:41:40.380 from securing farms and lands and using the same model to bring more young farmers to start new farms? 684 00:41:40.380 --> 00:41:43.902 Maybe that's an interesting next interview for you. 685 00:41:44.262 --> 00:41:44.502 Yeah, 686 00:41:44.502 --> 00:41:44.762 obviously, 687 00:41:45.042 --> 00:41:45.443 probably not. 688 00:41:45.583 --> 00:41:45.703 Yeah, 689 00:41:45.923 --> 00:41:46.483 I couldn't ask. 690 00:41:46.763 --> 00:41:50.865 I actually have no clue and I don't understand our government anymore. 691 00:41:51.265 --> 00:41:51.385 So 692 00:41:51.845 --> 00:41:53.906 I can actually not answer this question. 693 00:41:54.266 --> 00:41:54.666 Fair enough. 694 00:41:54.906 --> 00:41:55.327 Fair enough. 695 00:41:55.667 --> 00:41:56.427 I understand. 696 00:41:59.528 --> 00:41:59.688 Well, 697 00:42:00.769 --> 00:42:01.869 what I understand, 698 00:42:02.009 --> 00:42:04.730 and I think this should get more attention too, 699 00:42:05.411 --> 00:42:11.773 that the lobby of the big agri firms is so big that... 700 00:42:13.494 --> 00:42:29.568 people are led by other yeah these financial interests and other interests um voter interests instead of really looking on what the best solution for the problem is yeah there's there's a small group of people who benefits 701 00:42:30.509 --> 00:42:39.638 greatly from the current system who has a lot of power in influencing decision making right and obviously they have a lot of motivation to make sure things don't change 702 00:42:40.906 --> 00:42:41.446 But yeah, 703 00:42:41.506 --> 00:42:43.087 that's a big other topic for it. 704 00:42:43.087 --> 00:42:47.248 It's far more about ego than about eco at the moment. 705 00:42:47.588 --> 00:42:47.828 Yes. 706 00:42:49.008 --> 00:42:54.510 Something else you mentioned that I find really interesting is the idea of creating teams rather than individual farmers. 707 00:42:55.610 --> 00:42:58.191 That's something that I've been thinking a lot about recently. 708 00:42:58.551 --> 00:43:05.593 I noticed that actually a lot of farms are these family farms and there's one leader of the family of the farm. 709 00:43:06.053 --> 00:43:08.174 And so when you were talking about... 710 00:43:09.102 --> 00:43:13.707 creating a much more complex system that includes some agroforestry, 711 00:43:13.887 --> 00:43:15.249 some alley cropping, 712 00:43:15.389 --> 00:43:17.111 some perennial plants, 713 00:43:17.191 --> 00:43:18.392 some processing, 714 00:43:18.673 --> 00:43:19.113 marketing. 715 00:43:19.133 --> 00:43:23.098 Like there's so many different roles and jobs and skills and so much knowledge. 716 00:43:23.718 --> 00:43:27.803 It seems impossible for one farmer to be able to cover all of that. 717 00:43:28.263 --> 00:43:30.045 And so I've been thinking, 718 00:43:30.085 --> 00:43:30.626 but on... 719 00:43:31.710 --> 00:43:33.551 In pretty much all other business, 720 00:43:34.412 --> 00:43:35.152 a type of business, 721 00:43:35.212 --> 00:43:37.193 you have teams of people working together. 722 00:43:37.233 --> 00:43:37.613 You have a 723 00:43:38.014 --> 00:43:39.655 CEO with a marketing expert, 724 00:43:39.715 --> 00:43:40.855 with a salesperson, 725 00:43:40.895 --> 00:43:42.416 an HR person as well. 726 00:43:42.456 --> 00:43:46.758 Like you have all of these different types of characters with different skills. 727 00:43:46.859 --> 00:43:52.302 And none of these big companies could work without being a team of different profiles of people working together. 728 00:43:53.002 --> 00:43:55.864 And so why don't we see farms in the same way? 729 00:43:55.904 --> 00:43:57.464 Or could we see farms in the same way? 730 00:43:57.925 --> 00:44:00.026 Building teams of individuals who each have... 731 00:44:00.414 --> 00:44:02.896 specific skills that could together work really well. 732 00:44:03.196 --> 00:44:03.356 Yeah, 733 00:44:03.917 --> 00:44:04.938 I think it's a great idea. 734 00:44:05.018 --> 00:44:06.799 And I think this is the way we work. 735 00:44:07.300 --> 00:44:09.321 I think Lentiland has the team approach. 736 00:44:09.321 --> 00:44:13.785 And I think regenerative farming in general is all about collaboration. 737 00:44:14.345 --> 00:44:14.585 You know, 738 00:44:14.625 --> 00:44:17.127 not only collaboration within the farming team, 739 00:44:17.188 --> 00:44:21.611 but we also need to collaborate with the soil and with all living creatures. 740 00:44:21.911 --> 00:44:25.054 Everything is about not the competition from... 741 00:44:25.702 --> 00:44:26.523 the old economy, 742 00:44:26.623 --> 00:44:32.307 but the collaboration between everybody that has the same vision on future. 743 00:44:32.807 --> 00:44:43.394 And I think it makes your work also more pleasurable to focus on the things that you're good at and that you get energy from to focus on your own strengths. 744 00:44:43.434 --> 00:44:47.457 And I think also this kind of diversity in people, 745 00:44:48.298 --> 00:44:50.559 it makes systems more healthy. 746 00:44:50.780 --> 00:44:51.520 So yeah, 747 00:44:51.860 --> 00:44:54.162 I'm very informed of the team. 748 00:44:54.890 --> 00:45:11.115 approach and i think it's also um it makes it more solid because if one team member is sick or whatever then there are always other team members that can take over um and um yeah 749 00:45:11.415 --> 00:45:21.738 i would like to see more of uh of this so we will we will proceed in this for the lentil and farms yeah beautiful thank you so much 750 00:45:22.102 --> 00:45:24.804 It's been a great conversation and it was amazing to meet you. 751 00:45:25.404 --> 00:45:25.604 Yeah, 752 00:45:25.764 --> 00:45:26.525 likewise. 753 00:45:27.245 --> 00:45:28.746 Good luck with your podcast. 754 00:45:28.766 --> 00:45:29.026 Thank you. 755 00:45:29.106 --> 00:45:29.366 Take care.