WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.452 --> 00:00:05.153 So can we transition every piece of land to regenerative agriculture? 2 00:00:05.333 --> 00:00:06.393 To put it provocatively, 3 00:00:06.433 --> 00:00:07.594 I think we don't have a choice. 4 00:00:07.994 --> 00:00:10.155 It's really the best way to farm as well. 5 00:00:10.715 --> 00:00:12.195 In the face of climate stress, 6 00:00:12.295 --> 00:00:13.515 extreme weather events, 7 00:00:14.316 --> 00:00:15.896 the degradation of our soils, 8 00:00:16.276 --> 00:00:19.697 there is starting to be no other way than to farm regeneratively. 9 00:00:20.037 --> 00:00:24.099 The costs of doing nothing are much greater than the costs of changing. 10 00:00:24.099 --> 00:00:29.060 Welcome back to the Deep Seat Podcast as... 11 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:31.941 we continue our journey through the Rewind series. 12 00:00:32.741 --> 00:00:33.982 If you don't know what that is yet, 13 00:00:34.562 --> 00:00:36.503 and maybe you're joining us for the first time, 14 00:00:36.643 --> 00:00:43.966 it's a mini series where I revisit some of my favorite passages from some of my favorite conversations on the deep seed this year. 15 00:00:44.766 --> 00:00:49.328 It's such a nice way for me to listen back to these conversations and to bring back to the surface, 16 00:00:50.028 --> 00:00:50.168 well, 17 00:00:50.248 --> 00:00:53.930 some of the amazing wisdom shared on the podcast in the last 10 months. 18 00:00:55.311 --> 00:00:55.591 Today, 19 00:00:55.671 --> 00:00:58.792 I'm revisiting my conversation with Chuck de Lidekerk from 20 00:00:59.268 --> 00:00:59.889 Sol Capital. 21 00:01:00.629 --> 00:01:02.090 I'm not going to say too much in the intro, 22 00:01:02.430 --> 00:01:03.031 just that maybe 23 00:01:03.651 --> 00:01:11.777 I'm a little bit biased on this one because Sol Capital is the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast and because they've been helping me since day one. 24 00:01:12.818 --> 00:01:15.279 But I genuinely really like what they're doing and 25 00:01:15.619 --> 00:01:17.341 I have immense respect for Chuck. 26 00:01:17.621 --> 00:01:18.642 And yeah, 27 00:01:18.742 --> 00:01:20.803 I think if you listen to the next 20 minutes, 28 00:01:20.843 --> 00:01:21.684 you'll understand why. 29 00:01:22.044 --> 00:01:22.784 So let's go. 30 00:01:30.700 --> 00:01:35.184 Could you start by giving us your definition of regenerative agriculture? 31 00:01:35.884 --> 00:01:38.046 So regenerative agriculture, 32 00:01:38.246 --> 00:01:44.551 probably the best way to describe it is to contrast it with extractive agriculture. 33 00:01:45.051 --> 00:01:46.592 Maybe I can tell you a story about this, 34 00:01:46.993 --> 00:01:49.575 which is actually the story of agriculture. 35 00:01:50.636 --> 00:01:56.160 About 12,000 years ago we invented agriculture as a species and since that moment 36 00:01:56.948 --> 00:02:00.211 We've been slowly degrading the fertility of our planet. 37 00:02:01.271 --> 00:02:03.633 If you look at the places where agriculture was born, 38 00:02:04.053 --> 00:02:07.616 like Mesopotamia or Mexico or 39 00:02:08.357 --> 00:02:12.440 China, these areas have gradually turned to desert. 40 00:02:13.521 --> 00:02:16.603 And that's because agriculture is an artificial activity. 41 00:02:17.904 --> 00:02:22.848 What we mean by regenerative agriculture is the set of practices 42 00:02:23.444 --> 00:02:27.285 that are going to restore the natural fertility of these ecosystems. 43 00:02:28.445 --> 00:02:40.549 And the reason it's a very important notion is because historically it's the first time that we are coming to terms with the fact that, 44 00:02:41.369 --> 00:02:41.549 yes, 45 00:02:41.569 --> 00:02:43.910 we have been degrading our soils for a long time. 46 00:02:44.310 --> 00:02:47.251 We've been accelerating that degradation for a while as well, 47 00:02:47.791 --> 00:02:51.292 especially more recently since the industrial revolution. 48 00:02:51.952 --> 00:02:58.874 since the mechanization and the arrival of industrial chemistry in agriculture. 49 00:02:59.314 --> 00:03:01.495 But this is a trend that's been going on for a long time. 50 00:03:02.635 --> 00:03:07.757 But this realization that we can actually reverse that and build fertility in our soils, 51 00:03:08.257 --> 00:03:12.638 precisely at a moment where the environment is under such stress, 52 00:03:13.278 --> 00:03:14.539 is actually huge news. 53 00:03:15.079 --> 00:03:18.720 And it deserves to be considered as... 54 00:03:19.436 --> 00:03:20.196 probably a very, 55 00:03:20.276 --> 00:03:23.058 very important turning point in the history of mankind. 56 00:03:24.799 --> 00:03:38.226 You spent a number of years managing farmland in different places around the world and trying to transition these pieces of land to regenerative agriculture and trying to prove that this could be more profitable than conventional. 57 00:03:39.287 --> 00:03:42.168 So what were the results of those years? 58 00:03:42.228 --> 00:03:43.189 Did you manage to do that? 59 00:03:43.309 --> 00:03:44.910 Did you prove the model? 60 00:03:45.910 --> 00:03:46.171 Yes, 61 00:03:46.691 --> 00:03:46.931 yes, 62 00:03:47.331 --> 00:03:48.572 that's a very important point. 63 00:03:49.308 --> 00:03:50.188 When we arrived, 64 00:03:50.928 --> 00:03:51.089 well, 65 00:03:51.569 --> 00:03:58.351 really on most of the farming operations where we had a management or an advisory mandate, 66 00:03:59.331 --> 00:04:05.713 really we saw year on year profitability and resilience go up. 67 00:04:07.173 --> 00:04:08.673 I'd like to say productivity, 68 00:04:08.934 --> 00:04:09.134 and 69 00:04:10.214 --> 00:04:10.914 I'll explain this. 70 00:04:12.675 --> 00:04:12.795 Well, 71 00:04:12.795 --> 00:04:15.575 the best way to do it is to give you a story again. 72 00:04:18.140 --> 00:04:25.545 When we were managing the grape production of a client in 73 00:04:26.266 --> 00:04:26.906 South Africa, 74 00:04:28.327 --> 00:04:32.970 we were faced with a drought in 2017, 75 00:04:32.990 --> 00:04:33.410 a very, 76 00:04:33.490 --> 00:04:37.513 very tough drought for the Western Cape in 77 00:04:37.853 --> 00:04:38.434 South Africa. 78 00:04:39.755 --> 00:04:45.879 The city of Cape Town was at risk of not having any drinking water. 79 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:47.300 And... 80 00:04:47.976 --> 00:04:52.107 They were calculating the days before Cape Town would run out of drinking water, 81 00:04:52.187 --> 00:04:52.629 calling it, 82 00:04:53.110 --> 00:04:53.371 you know, 83 00:04:54.072 --> 00:04:54.895 Day 100, 84 00:04:54.955 --> 00:04:56.459 which was 100 days before. 85 00:04:57.819 --> 00:05:05.641 the city would ran out then day 95 and day 90 and we arrived at like day 90 and 90 days without 86 00:05:06.902 --> 00:05:23.667 90 days is like before you run out of water completely water days zero city is like a huge state of emergency and and they had already you know way before that they had um made irrigation for agriculture illegal because they were keeping the water for the people and 87 00:05:23.707 --> 00:05:23.827 so 88 00:05:24.611 --> 00:05:35.837 You can imagine no rain plus no irrigation plus super heat stress as well created the perfect conditions for the vines to just not grow anything or actually die. 89 00:05:36.478 --> 00:05:42.201 And a lot of farmers in that region didn't harvest a crop. 90 00:05:43.562 --> 00:05:45.583 Just about every farmer lost money that year. 91 00:05:45.923 --> 00:05:51.946 And quite a few farmers actually saw their vines die and had to rip out their production tools, 92 00:05:52.246 --> 00:05:53.227 the vines themselves. 93 00:05:54.343 --> 00:05:56.164 And that year, 94 00:05:56.264 --> 00:05:59.565 because of the regenerative operations that we were implementing, 95 00:06:00.506 --> 00:06:02.366 we were one of the rare, 96 00:06:02.386 --> 00:06:07.248 if not the only farm to turn a positive operating profit there. 97 00:06:08.449 --> 00:06:09.049 And for us, 98 00:06:09.109 --> 00:06:15.652 that was a huge discovery moment where we realized, 99 00:06:15.712 --> 00:06:15.952 okay, 100 00:06:16.812 --> 00:06:19.993 in periods of climate stress, 101 00:06:21.034 --> 00:06:23.575 we will be more productive than... 102 00:06:24.491 --> 00:06:25.872 extractive farms, 103 00:06:26.012 --> 00:06:26.893 if I were to call it that way. 104 00:06:27.693 --> 00:06:29.334 In normal years, 105 00:06:30.435 --> 00:06:31.916 we should be as productive. 106 00:06:32.597 --> 00:06:36.199 So we'll never be less productive in a regenerative system. 107 00:06:37.320 --> 00:06:39.261 We'll always be at least as productive. 108 00:06:39.501 --> 00:06:39.721 That's, 109 00:06:39.741 --> 00:06:40.022 I think, 110 00:06:40.042 --> 00:06:40.782 the important thing. 111 00:06:43.044 --> 00:06:44.445 So to answer your question, 112 00:06:44.865 --> 00:06:46.666 did we see profitability go up? 113 00:06:47.086 --> 00:06:47.267 Yeah, 114 00:06:48.648 --> 00:06:49.948 we saw resilience go up. 115 00:06:50.729 --> 00:06:53.471 I think we also saw the farmers'interests 116 00:06:53.943 --> 00:06:55.423 in their job change. 117 00:06:56.804 --> 00:06:58.864 And that was one of the key learnings, 118 00:06:59.004 --> 00:07:08.007 which is the toughest thing to change in a regenerative system is the mindset of a farmer. 119 00:07:09.027 --> 00:07:11.828 And that's not because the farmer doesn't want to do something different. 120 00:07:11.848 --> 00:07:12.988 I think the farmer spends their, 121 00:07:13.508 --> 00:07:13.748 you know, 122 00:07:14.088 --> 00:07:17.709 they spend their time thinking about what they can do differently. 123 00:07:19.230 --> 00:07:19.410 But, 124 00:07:20.130 --> 00:07:20.410 you know, 125 00:07:20.730 --> 00:07:22.211 they think about this day in, 126 00:07:22.431 --> 00:07:22.851 day out. 127 00:07:24.567 --> 00:07:25.228 And so when you, 128 00:07:26.108 --> 00:07:28.370 as someone who doesn't know their context, 129 00:07:28.490 --> 00:07:30.252 even if you're a farmer from another country, 130 00:07:30.952 --> 00:07:35.676 or even if you're a farmer from a few miles away and you tell a farmer to do something differently, 131 00:07:36.677 --> 00:07:37.998 the first thing they're going to think is, 132 00:07:38.078 --> 00:07:38.258 well, 133 00:07:39.660 --> 00:07:41.241 maybe it works elsewhere, 134 00:07:41.321 --> 00:07:43.523 but this is my system and I know my system really, 135 00:07:43.563 --> 00:07:44.003 really well. 136 00:07:44.103 --> 00:07:44.223 So, 137 00:07:45.324 --> 00:07:45.565 you know, 138 00:07:46.205 --> 00:07:48.887 I've been optimizing my own system with what I know, 139 00:07:50.569 --> 00:07:51.349 you know, 140 00:07:51.810 --> 00:07:52.670 why would I change? 141 00:07:55.558 --> 00:07:58.984 And so really what we understood is the toughest thing to change, 142 00:07:59.986 --> 00:08:01.689 if we want to change agriculture, 143 00:08:02.431 --> 00:08:05.777 is what happens between the two ears of the farmers. 144 00:08:07.459 --> 00:08:13.423 It's quite clear that you have a lot of respect for farmers and you're trying really hard not to say anything negative about them. 145 00:08:14.484 --> 00:08:20.068 And you're telling me that they know their land better than anyone else and they know their system better than anyone else. 146 00:08:21.009 --> 00:08:21.669 At the same time, 147 00:08:21.989 --> 00:08:33.117 you're telling me that when you took over management of farms in different places and implemented a different kind of system mindset using regenerative principles, 148 00:08:33.797 --> 00:08:34.858 you got better results. 149 00:08:35.018 --> 00:08:36.639 So what does. 150 00:08:36.779 --> 00:08:53.915 tells me is that well we do need farming to evolve we do need a lot of farmers to adapt their system to make changes to improve the way they farm so that it can be healthier for the environment it can be more resilient and even more profitable for themselves so 151 00:08:54.195 --> 00:08:56.778 in a way you you do have to somehow 152 00:08:58.199 --> 00:09:00.841 find a way to tell farmers that they need to change something. 153 00:09:00.981 --> 00:09:01.101 So, 154 00:09:01.901 --> 00:09:02.141 I mean, 155 00:09:02.201 --> 00:09:03.242 how do you propose to do that? 156 00:09:04.823 --> 00:09:04.983 Well, 157 00:09:05.063 --> 00:09:05.563 first of all, 158 00:09:05.603 --> 00:09:06.924 with a lot of humility, 159 00:09:08.585 --> 00:09:15.549 we spent quite some time trying to understand why farmers would change and why farmers wouldn't change. 160 00:09:15.809 --> 00:09:25.794 And the three reasons that we found was lack of technical knowledge to do some new stuff. 161 00:09:26.955 --> 00:09:28.616 And again, 162 00:09:28.676 --> 00:09:32.139 we can look at examples. 163 00:09:33.180 --> 00:09:46.370 A farmer will probably be afraid to establish a cover crop if he hasn't done it before because of potentially weed infestation or pest infestation problems. 164 00:09:46.370 --> 00:09:46.590 You know, 165 00:09:47.030 --> 00:09:52.454 you're going to bring in pests in your system that you didn't previously have. 166 00:09:52.574 --> 00:09:53.855 How are you going to deal with those? 167 00:09:55.216 --> 00:09:55.797 The second... 168 00:09:56.717 --> 00:10:01.961 The second reason why farmers don't change is the fear of an economic loss. 169 00:10:02.981 --> 00:10:05.263 They believe that their system is optimized as it is, 170 00:10:06.023 --> 00:10:07.524 and it's a series of compromise, 171 00:10:07.544 --> 00:10:15.310 but these are the best compromise they can land on to achieve the profitability they have. 172 00:10:17.391 --> 00:10:22.855 And then the last one is a lack of a clear economic incentive. 173 00:10:23.775 --> 00:10:26.257 And this is the most powerful one I find. 174 00:10:27.589 --> 00:10:28.289 The reason is, 175 00:10:28.810 --> 00:10:28.930 yeah. 176 00:10:29.390 --> 00:10:29.510 Yeah, 177 00:10:29.530 --> 00:10:30.851 because the fear is not going to change. 178 00:10:30.911 --> 00:10:35.773 So you need some kind of motivation somewhere to make them get over this fear and try something new. 179 00:10:36.233 --> 00:10:38.794 Or you need some kind of protection also in case something happens, 180 00:10:38.954 --> 00:10:39.135 right? 181 00:10:39.535 --> 00:10:39.695 Sorry, 182 00:10:39.835 --> 00:10:39.955 Lynn. 183 00:10:40.155 --> 00:10:40.295 Yeah, 184 00:10:40.335 --> 00:10:40.455 yeah, 185 00:10:40.635 --> 00:10:41.075 exactly. 186 00:10:42.256 --> 00:10:43.176 That's exactly the point. 187 00:10:44.097 --> 00:10:47.378 Take the story of organic agriculture. 188 00:10:48.379 --> 00:10:48.619 You know, 189 00:10:48.959 --> 00:10:51.060 at some point people were decided that, 190 00:10:51.761 --> 00:10:52.041 you know, 191 00:10:52.781 --> 00:10:57.624 Too much chemistry in the system was probably bad for you from a health perspective, 192 00:10:58.624 --> 00:11:00.845 maybe from an environmental perspective, 193 00:11:00.865 --> 00:11:08.029 but I think that organic emerged because of concerns for human health. 194 00:11:08.890 --> 00:11:14.173 And so some farmers decided to stop with chemistry in agriculture, 195 00:11:14.613 --> 00:11:15.994 especially synthetic inputs, 196 00:11:16.334 --> 00:11:17.915 especially synthetic nitrogen. 197 00:11:18.295 --> 00:11:22.197 But synthetic nitrogen is what will boost your yields most. 198 00:11:23.129 --> 00:11:27.032 And so by going from a conventional system to an organic system, 199 00:11:27.072 --> 00:11:31.356 the first thing the farmer is going to see is a drop in his productivity. 200 00:11:34.079 --> 00:11:46.609 And what we've observed is that there's been a growing number of farmers adopting 201 00:11:46.710 --> 00:11:47.790 organic agriculture. 202 00:11:51.473 --> 00:11:55.135 They knew that there was going to be less productivity. 203 00:11:55.335 --> 00:11:56.875 And if you're going to take less productivity, 204 00:11:56.915 --> 00:12:01.717 that means that you really need to see that there's a premium and their price is going to go up, 205 00:12:01.777 --> 00:12:01.897 up, 206 00:12:01.957 --> 00:12:02.077 up, 207 00:12:02.117 --> 00:12:02.237 up, 208 00:12:02.277 --> 00:12:05.979 up more than your productivity is going to drop. 209 00:12:06.999 --> 00:12:12.982 And the reason that's a nice story is because it tells you that if you can, 210 00:12:13.862 --> 00:12:14.122 you know, 211 00:12:14.322 --> 00:12:16.543 create a financial incentive for the farmer, 212 00:12:18.164 --> 00:12:18.324 well, 213 00:12:18.344 --> 00:12:20.165 the farmer will find a way. 214 00:12:21.025 --> 00:12:21.285 You know, 215 00:12:21.345 --> 00:12:23.506 these guys and girls, 216 00:12:23.586 --> 00:12:25.266 they're entrepreneurs. 217 00:12:26.487 --> 00:12:34.569 And so we don't need to be completely holding their hand at every point of the journey. 218 00:12:35.209 --> 00:12:37.630 If we can create an incentive that says, 219 00:12:37.650 --> 00:12:37.870 okay, 220 00:12:38.030 --> 00:12:46.312 this makes sense and this opens the door for me to start learning new things again and to start taking charge of my own business, 221 00:12:47.553 --> 00:12:47.773 then... 222 00:12:48.553 --> 00:12:49.013 they'll do it. 223 00:12:49.834 --> 00:12:49.954 So, 224 00:12:50.934 --> 00:12:51.194 you know, 225 00:12:51.294 --> 00:12:52.795 how do we get farmers to change? 226 00:12:53.275 --> 00:12:56.057 We certainly don't tell them what to do. 227 00:12:57.418 --> 00:12:59.679 We tell them what results we're looking for. 228 00:13:00.579 --> 00:13:03.441 And the results we'll be looking for are, 229 00:13:04.061 --> 00:13:04.341 you know, 230 00:13:06.022 --> 00:13:08.883 all of the benefits that come from regenerative agriculture. 231 00:13:10.164 --> 00:13:10.404 Sure, 232 00:13:10.484 --> 00:13:11.265 we'll look at carbon. 233 00:13:12.285 --> 00:13:14.006 But let's look at biodiversity as well. 234 00:13:14.947 --> 00:13:15.628 Let's look at, 235 00:13:16.308 --> 00:13:16.548 you know, 236 00:13:16.668 --> 00:13:19.030 how farming will impact the water system. 237 00:13:20.711 --> 00:13:30.519 How farming will impact the quantity of pesticides that the farmers will be applying. 238 00:13:31.920 --> 00:13:33.321 Let's look at farmer livelihoods. 239 00:13:33.521 --> 00:13:35.122 Let's look at soil health generally. 240 00:13:35.923 --> 00:13:36.403 Let's look at, 241 00:13:36.583 --> 00:13:36.823 you know, 242 00:13:37.264 --> 00:13:38.305 all of these metrics. 243 00:13:38.885 --> 00:13:43.472 that we can actually point to to say yes the land is actually regenerating and 244 00:13:44.357 --> 00:13:50.499 a society on that land and people on that land are actually thriving better than they were previously. 245 00:13:50.999 --> 00:13:52.779 Those are the metrics that we're after. 246 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:58.161 And so talking about incentivizing farmers to make those changes, 247 00:13:58.861 --> 00:14:00.942 especially financial incentives, 248 00:14:02.102 --> 00:14:06.303 as far as I understand this is the heart of what you're trying to do here with soil capital. 249 00:14:06.663 --> 00:14:11.125 So maybe you could tell us a little bit more about what soil capital does today. 250 00:14:12.429 --> 00:14:12.749 Today, 251 00:14:13.109 --> 00:14:23.092 Soil Capital runs a regenerative agriculture and climate action program where we help the food system to scale regenerative agriculture. 252 00:14:23.992 --> 00:14:24.872 And how do you do that? 253 00:14:24.992 --> 00:14:27.133 How do you scale regenerative agriculture? 254 00:14:28.293 --> 00:14:28.493 Well, 255 00:14:29.214 --> 00:14:39.857 by putting the farmer at the center of the equation and making sure that whatever we propose works for the farmers. 256 00:14:40.557 --> 00:14:40.997 Because... 257 00:14:41.541 --> 00:14:41.781 You know, 258 00:14:43.103 --> 00:14:44.004 I said food system, 259 00:14:44.124 --> 00:14:46.707 and I mean that it's the food system is not just the farmers, 260 00:14:46.827 --> 00:14:53.755 it's also the companies that will be working in the ag and food industry. 261 00:14:54.419 --> 00:15:05.907 So anywhere from tractor manufacturers to food brands to industrial processors to cooperatives working with farmers, 262 00:15:06.087 --> 00:15:08.509 all of these companies are part of the system. 263 00:15:09.990 --> 00:15:10.590 The retailers, 264 00:15:10.590 --> 00:15:11.371 the supermarkets, 265 00:15:11.391 --> 00:15:12.652 they're part of the system as well. 266 00:15:14.213 --> 00:15:17.836 And you and I as consumers are part of the system as well. 267 00:15:19.157 --> 00:15:22.539 So that's who we're changing the system for. 268 00:15:23.347 --> 00:15:25.048 And everyone has a role to play in there. 269 00:15:26.088 --> 00:15:27.108 That's really important. 270 00:15:28.408 --> 00:15:30.209 And everyone has an interest in it succeeding. 271 00:15:31.229 --> 00:15:32.750 So let me talk about the role first. 272 00:15:33.690 --> 00:15:34.530 Everybody's role, 273 00:15:34.830 --> 00:15:35.130 I think, 274 00:15:35.310 --> 00:15:40.972 is to make this achievable and interesting for the farmer so that it can happen at scale. 275 00:15:42.452 --> 00:15:43.273 That's the first role. 276 00:15:44.933 --> 00:15:49.714 And we help everybody in the system make it interesting for the farmer. 277 00:15:52.059 --> 00:15:55.542 I'll explain that now and then I'll explain why everyone has an interest in doing it. 278 00:15:55.982 --> 00:15:56.463 If I forget, 279 00:15:56.523 --> 00:15:56.923 remind me. 280 00:15:59.285 --> 00:16:07.351 The way we do it is we enable farmers to come in to a regenerative agriculture and climate program, 281 00:16:07.491 --> 00:16:08.072 our program, 282 00:16:08.872 --> 00:16:11.915 and we will measure their practices every year. 283 00:16:12.735 --> 00:16:14.877 in a way that's actually interesting and fun for them. 284 00:16:17.259 --> 00:16:19.481 We don't want to burden the farmers with too much admin. 285 00:16:20.221 --> 00:16:21.082 So basically, 286 00:16:22.563 --> 00:16:24.004 for about two hours, 287 00:16:24.084 --> 00:16:25.125 three hours a year, 288 00:16:25.826 --> 00:16:29.188 the farmers will sit down with some agronomists in our team. 289 00:16:29.469 --> 00:16:33.812 We have around 25 agronomists working in the team today. 290 00:16:34.693 --> 00:16:41.839 And they're going to collect information about the farmers'soils and about the farmers'farming practices. 291 00:16:42.343 --> 00:16:43.124 into our systems. 292 00:16:43.884 --> 00:16:55.631 And we will feed that data into a model that will help us understand if the farmer is storing carbon or emitting carbon at the level of his whole farm, 293 00:16:56.011 --> 00:16:57.252 his or her whole farm. 294 00:16:58.392 --> 00:17:02.455 We will be also assessing 295 00:17:03.171 --> 00:17:03.411 you know, 296 00:17:03.531 --> 00:17:09.034 what type of impact these practices might have on other metrics that I mentioned earlier. 297 00:17:10.054 --> 00:17:12.415 And then we'll understand, 298 00:17:13.796 --> 00:17:14.036 you know, 299 00:17:14.116 --> 00:17:17.577 the farmer's carbon impact as a proxy, 300 00:17:17.757 --> 00:17:18.698 an imperfect proxy, 301 00:17:18.758 --> 00:17:20.118 but a good proxy nonetheless, 302 00:17:20.679 --> 00:17:22.559 about the farmer's regenerative practices. 303 00:17:23.600 --> 00:17:24.740 And then we'll certify that. 304 00:17:25.761 --> 00:17:30.663 And by certifying the farmer's carbon performance, 305 00:17:31.751 --> 00:17:33.954 on any given year for any given crop, 306 00:17:35.075 --> 00:17:47.730 we can help the farmer send regenerative crops into the food system and get paid to send regenerative crops into the food system. 307 00:17:48.871 --> 00:17:50.173 So if I understand this right, 308 00:17:50.773 --> 00:17:51.734 it's about 309 00:17:52.535 --> 00:17:58.257 using carbon as a lever to generate more income for farmers who improve soil health, 310 00:17:58.438 --> 00:18:00.458 but through regenerative practices. 311 00:18:01.419 --> 00:18:03.260 And to me, 312 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.821 it sounds a lot like the concept of carbon credits, 313 00:18:06.861 --> 00:18:07.922 which we hear a lot about, 314 00:18:08.002 --> 00:18:08.162 but 315 00:18:08.862 --> 00:18:11.663 I know this is not quite what you're doing here. 316 00:18:11.663 --> 00:18:13.724 So maybe you could explain the difference. 317 00:18:14.384 --> 00:18:14.664 You know, 318 00:18:15.085 --> 00:18:20.667 we at Soil Capital have chosen not to go into carbon credits. 319 00:18:21.695 --> 00:18:27.377 Because there's something that's more interesting for the food and ag supply chain, 320 00:18:27.857 --> 00:18:33.199 is that the food and ag companies, 321 00:18:33.999 --> 00:18:35.580 they don't need to buy carbon credits. 322 00:18:37.320 --> 00:18:42.382 They can buy their own crop and make it regenerative. 323 00:18:43.082 --> 00:18:44.883 And that will actually decrease... 324 00:18:45.615 --> 00:18:46.995 Their own carbon footprint. 325 00:18:47.055 --> 00:18:51.197 Because if you look at the carbon footprint of a food product, 326 00:18:52.297 --> 00:18:53.717 what's interesting is usually 327 00:18:54.678 --> 00:18:56.698 I think it's 70% to 80%, 328 00:18:56.698 --> 00:18:57.738 sometimes much more. 329 00:18:57.758 --> 00:19:04.940 We were speaking with a client yesterday who has 98% of their emissions comes from the farm. 330 00:19:06.821 --> 00:19:07.921 And this is a food brand. 331 00:19:07.941 --> 00:19:11.162 98% of their emissions comes from the farm. 332 00:19:12.302 --> 00:19:14.163 So if you want to change... 333 00:19:15.083 --> 00:19:16.844 the carbon impact of your food, 334 00:19:17.484 --> 00:19:20.005 the best way to do it is through agriculture. 335 00:19:20.465 --> 00:19:24.666 And the best way to do that is by incentivizing the farmer. 336 00:19:25.946 --> 00:19:34.729 So that's one of the reasons why we have an interest in helping the farmers and supporting the farmers. 337 00:19:35.009 --> 00:19:38.130 But the other reason I think is even more dramatic. 338 00:19:39.450 --> 00:19:40.311 It's food security. 339 00:19:42.112 --> 00:19:42.372 You know, 340 00:19:42.932 --> 00:19:50.297 we're entering a world where climate stress is going to cause more and more crop failures, 341 00:19:51.578 --> 00:19:52.619 harvest failures. 342 00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:55.240 You know, 343 00:19:55.660 --> 00:19:59.021 we are entering into a world with record temperatures, 344 00:20:00.021 --> 00:20:03.442 with extreme patterns of rainfall and drought. 345 00:20:04.663 --> 00:20:14.625 And if we don't very quickly identify the farmers that are the regenerative farmers and scale these groups of farmers in the areas that are at risk, 346 00:20:15.626 --> 00:20:18.706 there are going to be real supply problems. 347 00:20:19.807 --> 00:20:24.348 Do you think that we could transition every piece of land used for agriculture today? 348 00:20:24.808 --> 00:20:26.369 to regenerative agriculture? 349 00:20:27.029 --> 00:20:27.409 And if so, 350 00:20:28.850 --> 00:20:29.891 how long would that take? 351 00:20:29.911 --> 00:20:32.392 How far away from achieving that are we? 352 00:20:33.273 --> 00:20:36.975 So can we transition every piece of land to regenerative agriculture? 353 00:20:39.876 --> 00:20:40.937 To put it provocatively, 354 00:20:40.977 --> 00:20:42.138 I think we don't have a choice. 355 00:20:43.018 --> 00:20:47.721 And I think it's really the best way to farm as well. 356 00:20:48.962 --> 00:20:51.863 We don't have a choice because in the face of climate stress, 357 00:20:51.963 --> 00:20:53.184 extreme weather events, 358 00:20:53.972 --> 00:20:55.552 the degradation of our soils, 359 00:20:56.413 --> 00:21:00.974 there is starting to be no other way than to farm regeneratively. 360 00:21:02.914 --> 00:21:06.816 This is how you're going to preserve the value of your farm. 361 00:21:08.296 --> 00:21:18.599 This is how you're going to produce a healthy and abundant crop in a living system that's going to be valued by society, 362 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.080 that's going to earn you extra income as a farmer. 363 00:21:23.444 --> 00:21:31.707 And that's going to reconnect you to society and the soil in the right way. 364 00:21:32.507 --> 00:21:33.668 The reason I say this is, 365 00:21:34.228 --> 00:21:34.468 you know, 366 00:21:35.188 --> 00:21:35.889 for a while, 367 00:21:35.929 --> 00:21:37.209 I think it's less the case now, 368 00:21:37.249 --> 00:21:38.089 but for a while, 369 00:21:38.229 --> 00:21:42.811 farmers have been regarded as people that have been destroying the planet. 370 00:21:46.016 --> 00:21:48.177 It's a lonely position to be in when you're a farmer, 371 00:21:48.177 --> 00:21:49.397 to be destroying the planet. 372 00:21:49.798 --> 00:21:50.278 First of all, 373 00:21:50.738 --> 00:21:54.660 it's already pretty lonely to be a farmer because generally your neighbors are far away from you. 374 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:56.180 Financially, 375 00:21:56.220 --> 00:22:01.402 it's complicated to be a farmer because your margins are tight and your debts are usually huge. 376 00:22:03.143 --> 00:22:07.305 And if people think that you're destroying the planet and poisoning your food, 377 00:22:07.745 --> 00:22:08.865 then it becomes even tougher. 378 00:22:09.746 --> 00:22:10.466 And I think that, 379 00:22:11.466 --> 00:22:11.706 you know, 380 00:22:11.826 --> 00:22:15.568 regenerative agriculture kind of flips the switch on all of those issues. 381 00:22:16.388 --> 00:22:18.912 So that's why it's the right way to farm. 382 00:22:20.113 --> 00:22:20.374 And then, 383 00:22:20.814 --> 00:22:21.074 you know, 384 00:22:21.255 --> 00:22:28.224 something I often say is the cost of doing nothing are much greater than the cost of changing. 385 00:22:37.592 --> 00:22:50.102 The key element from this conversation I want to highlight is that farmers should be at the center of the equation and that the key to the regenerative transition is making sure that we make it attractive and accessible for farmers. 386 00:22:50.922 --> 00:22:54.765 They should not be taking all of the risks while getting none of the rewards. 387 00:22:55.426 --> 00:23:03.812 And that's kind of what Sol Capital is trying to do here by financially rewarding farmers for their regenerative practices using carbon as a lever. 388 00:23:05.248 --> 00:23:05.688 Anyways, 389 00:23:05.828 --> 00:23:07.149 thank you so much for listening. 390 00:23:07.909 --> 00:23:11.110 And don't forget to follow The Deep Seat on your favorite streaming platform. 391 00:23:11.170 --> 00:23:14.411 And if you've done that already and you would like to go one small extra step, 392 00:23:15.051 --> 00:23:16.972 you can leave me a five-star review. 393 00:23:17.972 --> 00:23:21.073 It really makes a huge difference for me and for the podcast. 394 00:23:21.093 --> 00:23:28.015 And it helps me reach more and more people each week with these really important stories and these important conversations. 395 00:23:28.715 --> 00:23:31.296 So thank you so much and see you soon.