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Those of you who have been following the last few episodes will know that I have recently started a pretty epic travel project.

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Basically for seven months

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I'm traveling with my wife Natalia and my dog Ginzu and we are meeting some of the most advanced regenerative farmers and experts all around Europe.

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This week we arrived in a beautiful town on the west coast of France called Biarritz and here we met with Oliver Dort to record a really nice conversation about biodiversity.

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and about the role of biodiversity in farming.

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We also talked about beavers,

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bees,

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and the pros and cons of wolves coming back into our European ecosystems.

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Oliver makes a really strong case for why biodiversity is so important,

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and he gives us a few key ways everyone listening can contribute to improving it.

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This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital.

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I'm your host Raphael,

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and this is the Deep Seed Podcast.

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So in last week's episode,

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we were just outside of Toulouse in a beautiful,

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regenerative,

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organic almond farm.

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And after that episode,

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we kept driving west to the French

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Atlantic coast.

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And we are today in Biarritz,

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beautiful city.

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And I'm in the company of Oliver Doert,

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a biodiversity and wildlife expert.

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Right?

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Yeah,

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yeah.

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I mean,

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I always have a bit of an imposter feeling still with the word expert,

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but yeah,

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I definitely know one or two things about biodiversity by now.

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So yeah.

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Certainly something you're very passionate about.

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Yeah,

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for sure.

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Exactly.

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And try to do my part to get more people excited about it.

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Yeah.

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So for a bit of context,

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we're sitting at your home here in Biarritz.

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Very first time for me here in this city.

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And I had the opportunity yesterday to walk around and my God,

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such a beautiful city.

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I was not expecting that.

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Amazing place to live,

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right?

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Yeah,

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no,

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I can definitely not complain.

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It's I think in Europe,

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at least for me personally,

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it's my favorite place.

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We have the mountains,

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we have the ocean right here.

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We live five minutes from the beach.

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It's still more or less green.

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It's a smaller place,

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but it still feels a bit international because there's a lot of people living from...

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all around the world.

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And yeah,

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for me,

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it's like,

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it is the right way of boring.

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So

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I just love outdoors and I love,

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I love like food and different cultures.

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And we have the Spanish culture,

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the bus culture,

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the French culture,

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all within the like 30 minutes radius.

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And so it feels even like traveling,

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even though you're not like leaving this place.

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So it's really nice.

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Yeah.

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I know it's a city that's quite famous for surfing.

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Do you surf as well?

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Yeah,

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as you see with the bun,

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surfer signal.

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Yeah,

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all right.

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No,

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I know.

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Yeah,

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I do surf.

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And yeah,

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it's a beautiful sport because in the end,

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you have this combo out of endurance,

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you build muscles,

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your nature.

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And yeah,

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you're really connected with nature in the best possible way.

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And you get a really good workout in.

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And when you're out there in the water,

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you...

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yeah you don't have anything in the world that really bothers you and you can just like really shut off and especially with this busy brain like ours where it's just constantly thinking how can we improve this wall like well what's like what are the blocking points how can we intervene and make this world a bit better and wilder it's

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a really good sport because it's it helps you to just also calm down a bit and relax and recharge the batteries yeah it's an amazing sport

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Unfortunately,

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in Brussels,

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it's difficult to practice on a regular basis.

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I can imagine.

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I'd like to start the conversation with this one question.

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If there's one message that you would like people to come away with today,

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what would it be?

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I would say that nature is not a nice to have,

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but a must have.

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A lot of the conversations that we have about nature are often around like,

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oh,

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this is a really beautiful,

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fluffy,

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cute koala,

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elephant,

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lion.

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And we have to protect them because they're so cute or because they're so adorable or because we would like to see them.

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And I would just like to challenge the listener today.

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To hopefully go away with another perspective of nature to see like we actually depend on the natural world.

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We need it for our survival.

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We need it for the water that we drink,

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the oxygen that we breathe,

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the food that we eat,

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the medicine that we take.

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Everything is at this base and that's the natural world.

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And so what kind of cars we drive,

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what kind of fashion we wear,

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how big our flat is,

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all of that stuff is really nice to have.

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But we should really have a much...

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bigger concern and do our uttermost to

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make sure that the base is staying there and that it's getting actually healthier because right now we are not doing a really great job in guarding the natural world.

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What would be a great way for people living in cities to easily reconnect with nature?

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The number one tip,

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and that's also going to be my action item if we come to it at the end of the podcast,

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is like everybody can do it.

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It's like five minutes.

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Just go five minutes outside.

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It doesn't cost you money.

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It doesn't cost you much time.

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And if you go outside and if you just like put yourself out there,

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we all have five minutes to spare.

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And just look up,

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look a bit around,

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listen,

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smell.

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And there's usually...

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there are some natures still holding on,

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you know?

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Even if it's sometimes like a pigeon or if it's like some of those weeds coming through cracks of a street or like a tree or whatever.

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But just be a bit more observing of the natural world,

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even if it's a park or if it's a river or if it's a lake,

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and try to find those spaces that are nearby and just look a bit and see how you feel.

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And look a bit around and see what you can find.

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there's also like still so much life that is holding on and that is still trying to push and hasn't given up yet and so yeah I think this is like the easiest thing that really everybody can do no matter like the income that they have and how much time they have and so forth I think this is like the

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simplest one yeah um in the first few minutes of this conversation we've used the word nature quite a lot and

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I've had several guests on the podcast before telling me that we should refrain from using that term because it creates an opposition between culture on one side,

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which is us humans and everything related to humans,

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and nature on the other side,

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which is everything else alive that is not us.

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Yeah.

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What do you think about that?

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Yeah,

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no,

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for sure.

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They definitely have a point.

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We definitely have this perception of like separating us.

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Rather than seeing us as a part of nature,

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we see us apart.

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And that's definitely a huge issue that we need to tackle.

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I think a lot of people even forgot that we are like animals.

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And we treat ourselves like we wouldn't be animals.

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And we create environments that are quite toxic for us in terms of noise,

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in terms of pollution,

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and so forth.

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Because we just got so disconnected.

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We are not like robots,

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we are like animals.

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And so we need to get back to that thinking.

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Now when it comes to the term,

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of nature.

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I work a lot in communication and so one of the guiding principles that I always like to use is simplicity.

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You don't want people to feel stupid when they listen to you.

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You don't want them to feel like,

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oh,

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I didn't understand anything of this,

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because then they're going to shut off and they're going to just pause your podcast or they're going to do something else.

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Just because if you speak in such a language where they feel like,

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oh,

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I'm not going to understand everything,

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it's not a really nice feeling.

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And so...

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What I like about the umbrella term of nature is that people,

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no matter who you ask,

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there is some sort of understanding about this.

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So it's very the simplicity of that word.

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And if we start to use very specific words that are maybe then pushed by a certain group of people,

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but that stays,

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let's say,

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in the realm of these people just because they like this term,

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then we're going to have the conversation between us and we're going to see like,

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oh yeah,

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we all understand this and so forth.

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But...

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we're not going to get the broad majority on our page.

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And to be honest,

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I think that's definitely something where we need to improve,

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especially in the nature community,

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that we bring more people in.

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And we can only do this through language that really everybody understands.

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So I think it's more of a journey.

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I think it's always important to,

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okay,

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what is the next step that we can take people and society on?

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And some people maybe want to jump the gun a bit and to say like,

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okay,

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we need to come up with an entirely new term.

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And...

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rather right now maybe say something like,

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when you talk about nature,

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you say nature,

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but we are part of nature.

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So make really clear that you're talking about nature,

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not as something separate,

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but that you talk about nature and hey,

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you know what,

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we are part of it.

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We are part of this.

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When it comes to biodiversity,

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we are included.

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And yeah,

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I think this is a bit like my stance point on this.

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Yeah,

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I like that.

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I like that vision.

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I personally have been struggling not using the word nature because I'm so conditioned and used to using that term.

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And I find it hard to express certain ideas without the use of the word.

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And yeah,

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so I quite like your vision,

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which is,

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OK,

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you can keep using the word nature,

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but insist on the fact that humans are part of it,

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part of nature and not separate from it.

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Yeah.

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I want to rewind a little bit.

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and talk about you.

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So maybe you could tell us a little bit about your personal journey and what led you to become so passionate about the living world.

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Ah,

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that's a good question.

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Where did it all start?

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So

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I was very privileged that my parents really nurtured that curiosity about the natural world that apparently I really had from a really young age.

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So there's a picture of me where

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I asked my mom to dress me up as an elephant seal for carnival.

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So in Germany we have like this carnival thing and like usually boys ask their mom to dress them up as like firefighters,

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policemen,

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astronauts,

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all of that stuff and asked her to be an elephant seal.

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Now you can imagine in the

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90s like good luck trying to get an elephant seal costume and so she actually made it herself and so there's this really beautiful picture of me just like being the happiest boy in the world because

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I got to be an elephant seal.

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That just like shows a bit like where I'm coming from is like,

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apparently I was really lucky that there was this like calling on no matter what you believe in.

262
00:11:05.808 --> 00:11:07.529
But from a really young age,

263
00:11:07.689 --> 00:11:09.210
I've just really loved in nature.

264
00:11:09.310 --> 00:11:10.611
And so I grew up in Berlin.

265
00:11:10.972 --> 00:11:12.813
And yeah,

266
00:11:12.814 --> 00:11:13.013
I mean,

267
00:11:13.053 --> 00:11:14.794
it's it's a greener city than others.

268
00:11:14.874 --> 00:11:15.815
But I wouldn't say you know,

269
00:11:16.375 --> 00:11:18.297
I wasn't growing up next to elephant seals.

270
00:11:18.337 --> 00:11:22.139
I wasn't growing up in a in a in the African bush or in the Amazon.

271
00:11:22.219 --> 00:11:23.520
So yeah,

272
00:11:24.041 --> 00:11:27.543
something I've noticed on the podcast is that many of my guests

273
00:11:27.823 --> 00:11:29.864
had an early childhood connection with nature.

274
00:11:30.385 --> 00:11:40.791
Some of them grew up on a farm or close to nature or had parents that were very passionate about nature and took them out on walks in the forest and in the parks and in the zoo and things like that when they were kids.

275
00:11:41.491 --> 00:11:48.855
And many of them went on to have a career that was completely unrelated in business and finance and education and politics and fashion,

276
00:11:48.915 --> 00:11:51.217
like many other examples like that.

277
00:11:51.397 --> 00:11:54.959
And later in life came back to it and became...

278
00:11:55.471 --> 00:11:59.714
prominent figures in the ecosystem restoration movement or the regenerative agriculture movement.

279
00:12:00.976 --> 00:12:11.804
And so I'm starting to see a pattern emerge here where when kids are exposed to nature from a young age and build that connection with it and that love and respect for nature,

280
00:12:12.565 --> 00:12:22.213
they tend to become members of society who actively contribute to preserving it and to protecting it and to improving it.

281
00:12:23.073 --> 00:12:25.095
Would you say that this was the case for you as well?

282
00:12:25.911 --> 00:12:26.031
Yeah,

283
00:12:26.071 --> 00:12:26.191
no,

284
00:12:26.251 --> 00:12:26.371
no,

285
00:12:26.411 --> 00:12:26.731
for sure,

286
00:12:26.751 --> 00:12:27.092
for sure.

287
00:12:27.272 --> 00:12:29.773
I think that's like also like if a listener is a parent,

288
00:12:29.793 --> 00:12:37.397
I think you have like such a strong power to plant like really positive seeds for the child by just like exposing them to the natural world in all different ways.

289
00:12:37.437 --> 00:12:38.617
And my mom,

290
00:12:38.797 --> 00:12:39.418
for example,

291
00:12:39.538 --> 00:12:41.759
she always brought me to the National History Museum.

292
00:12:41.819 --> 00:12:42.559
And if you don't know,

293
00:12:42.579 --> 00:12:46.761
the National History Museum of Berlin has the biggest dinosaur skeleton in the world.

294
00:12:46.781 --> 00:12:47.822
They have the brachiosaurus.

295
00:12:50.543 --> 00:12:53.984
We went there every single day so that even the guards,

296
00:12:54.024 --> 00:13:00.166
they started to know me and I got free entry because they knew I was just going to want to see the brachiosaurus and then I'm off again.

297
00:13:00.886 --> 00:13:01.206
And so,

298
00:13:02.726 --> 00:13:04.247
please don't fire the security guards.

299
00:13:06.087 --> 00:13:06.808
And yeah,

300
00:13:06.828 --> 00:13:13.449
they were like incremental to nurture that weirdness or this really unique love that apparently I had for the natural world.

301
00:13:13.489 --> 00:13:14.550
And really important,

302
00:13:14.551 --> 00:13:16.190
what you were just saying is a lot of people,

303
00:13:16.210 --> 00:13:18.211
they lose that when they're growing up and me too.

304
00:13:18.371 --> 00:13:18.971
So it's not like...

305
00:13:19.619 --> 00:13:25.861
I was here and from there on it was just like a straight route and I was just like going more and more and more into this.

306
00:13:25.862 --> 00:13:25.981
No,

307
00:13:26.021 --> 00:13:29.842
this was actually really like really messy route as like for many other people because

308
00:13:31.323 --> 00:13:42.887
I was like in high school and there are like different interests and so like you start to play sports and then like girls and fashion and you get like really sidetracked and there's peer pressure and you...

309
00:13:44.483 --> 00:13:51.547
You start maybe to hide yourself and at least I was hiding my interest for the natural world looking back now I can say I was hiding it in that moment.

310
00:13:51.548 --> 00:13:53.068
It didn't even feel like it was just like

311
00:13:53.748 --> 00:13:56.250
I wanted to fit in I think isn't how many of us

312
00:13:57.291 --> 00:13:59.192
Yeah, having the same issues in high school and then

313
00:14:00.052 --> 00:14:03.314
I would just like finished high school and went to Australia because

314
00:14:03.714 --> 00:14:05.755
I knew I wanted to speak English and I

315
00:14:06.316 --> 00:14:11.719
Was really bad in English and I also was not ready to study because I was still very lost

316
00:14:12.239 --> 00:14:14.621
And then it took me this year in Australia to realize,

317
00:14:15.121 --> 00:14:23.748
why should I live for somebody else's expectations or views of me if I like really the natural world and if that is what's driving me and if that's my,

318
00:14:23.808 --> 00:14:24.088
let's say,

319
00:14:24.208 --> 00:14:26.630
purpose in life or my lifelong calling?

320
00:14:28.031 --> 00:14:28.892
Why wouldn't I?

321
00:14:29.708 --> 00:14:29.828
Now,

322
00:14:29.928 --> 00:14:30.108
like,

323
00:14:30.528 --> 00:14:32.709
really just like do it and just like go in on this.

324
00:14:32.749 --> 00:14:34.510
Because if we think about happiness,

325
00:14:34.610 --> 00:14:45.194
then I personally think a lot of the happiness come by doing really the things that you kind of meant to be or that you kind of grow into and where your biggest passions and motivations lie.

326
00:14:45.214 --> 00:14:48.516
And so then I studied business because

327
00:14:49.296 --> 00:14:54.858
I had the reflection that the business world has like the biggest impact on the natural world.

328
00:14:55.058 --> 00:14:57.739
Because if we look at this triangle of power of like citizens,

329
00:14:57.799 --> 00:14:58.980
governments and companies.

330
00:14:59.540 --> 00:15:02.321
I believe companies have the bigger lever when it comes to the two.

331
00:15:03.142 --> 00:15:03.522
And I said,

332
00:15:03.742 --> 00:15:03.962
okay,

333
00:15:04.502 --> 00:15:10.045
I need to understand why currently businesses destroy the natural world,

334
00:15:10.585 --> 00:15:14.167
even though they need it for their products and for their services.

335
00:15:14.787 --> 00:15:15.567
Why do they do this?

336
00:15:15.867 --> 00:15:17.948
Why do they get away with this?

337
00:15:18.108 --> 00:15:21.790
And what kind of techniques are they also using to influence the public?

338
00:15:22.170 --> 00:15:25.392
And can we use all of that to actually have a positive impact?

339
00:15:25.432 --> 00:15:25.752
Can we...

340
00:15:26.232 --> 00:15:41.377
bring companies towards like actually being a force for good and like actually restoring and regenerating this world because i really believe we can and so i studied business and lost myself again because now you're sitting with all kind of other people that study business for different reasons and

341
00:15:41.757 --> 00:15:52.140
i also got caught up in this so i did that internships i was working in e-commerce and mobility in also for some ngos but in travel tech and i lost myself again

342
00:15:52.300 --> 00:15:54.841
because now you were dealing with like the career ladder,

343
00:15:55.521 --> 00:15:55.942
the money,

344
00:15:57.983 --> 00:16:02.565
the privileges of like getting into certain positions or getting promotions and so forth.

345
00:16:02.566 --> 00:16:03.745
And I lost myself again a bit.

346
00:16:03.845 --> 00:16:06.967
And even working for these companies,

347
00:16:06.968 --> 00:16:08.887
I realized biodiversity was really,

348
00:16:08.967 --> 00:16:12.009
really like an agenda point and you didn't see it in the OKRs,

349
00:16:12.029 --> 00:16:13.930
you didn't see it in your annual review,

350
00:16:14.170 --> 00:16:14.770
nothing like that.

351
00:16:15.670 --> 00:16:16.551
And yeah,

352
00:16:17.031 --> 00:16:19.032
then COVID hit and I was like...

353
00:16:20.180 --> 00:16:20.761
What are you doing,

354
00:16:20.821 --> 00:16:20.961
Olli?

355
00:16:21.081 --> 00:16:31.830
Like you set out to do this thing for nature and you always labor yourself inside your head of like this nature person and that does everything for the natural world.

356
00:16:31.910 --> 00:16:33.391
And I just looked at my life and I was like,

357
00:16:33.691 --> 00:16:34.372
all right,

358
00:16:34.432 --> 00:16:35.452
let's do a little checklist.

359
00:16:35.933 --> 00:16:37.834
I don't work in anything nature related.

360
00:16:37.874 --> 00:16:40.797
Plus my company is not really working that much on that topic.

361
00:16:41.858 --> 00:16:42.018
Okay,

362
00:16:42.078 --> 00:16:42.999
already not really right.

363
00:16:43.659 --> 00:16:44.740
I don't consume anything.

364
00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:46.662
So if I don't consume that many books,

365
00:16:46.682 --> 00:16:48.763
I didn't consume that many documentaries,

366
00:16:48.823 --> 00:16:49.104
nothing.

367
00:16:49.144 --> 00:16:49.604
So I was like,

368
00:16:50.305 --> 00:17:03.564
I didn't study this so also not really um in my friend circle there were not that many people that are actually really into the natural world that I could like geek out about like elephant seals and so forth so also not really in a friend circle and

369
00:17:04.585 --> 00:17:05.807
I was just like it's

370
00:17:06.992 --> 00:17:30.623
bit like of a lie that you're telling yourself because also if you look at the time that you dedicate to other things you dedicate everywhere more time than actually be in nature or do something about the natural world and i was just like can't continue like this kind of like that was really like a reflection where i was like there's not like this really like a lie that i told to myself in my head and i was like no i can't continue like this and then i it

371
00:17:30.663 --> 00:17:33.444
was not like not 360 right away but like

372
00:17:33.584 --> 00:17:35.866
basically then I extended more time,

373
00:17:35.886 --> 00:17:39.528
more resources towards becoming that person that I was in my head.

374
00:17:39.789 --> 00:17:40.829
So yeah,

375
00:17:41.049 --> 00:17:41.530
fast forward.

376
00:17:44.092 --> 00:17:47.234
So we're going to be talking a lot about biodiversity.

377
00:17:47.434 --> 00:17:49.616
That's kind of the key topic of this discussion.

378
00:17:50.356 --> 00:17:52.578
And while I was preparing the questions for the interview,

379
00:17:53.438 --> 00:17:54.159
I realized that

380
00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:55.320
I don't...

381
00:17:56.360 --> 00:17:59.203
precisely know what we mean when we say biodiversity.

382
00:17:59.243 --> 00:18:02.746
It feels like kind of a vague term that is thrown around a lot.

383
00:18:03.427 --> 00:18:07.591
And so I was wondering if you could give us your definition of biodiversity.

384
00:18:08.912 --> 00:18:09.032
Yeah,

385
00:18:09.433 --> 00:18:10.794
you make a really strong point.

386
00:18:11.234 --> 00:18:14.477
The word itself,

387
00:18:14.517 --> 00:18:16.499
I think it's what we talked about earlier.

388
00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:16.619
It's,

389
00:18:16.639 --> 00:18:16.860
I think,

390
00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:18.061
pushing people away.

391
00:18:19.302 --> 00:18:19.542
For me,

392
00:18:19.562 --> 00:18:21.064
it still sounds like quite scientific.

393
00:18:21.504 --> 00:18:25.347
I use it because I want to send certain signals to people and to companies.

394
00:18:26.427 --> 00:18:29.730
But it's not a really easy to grasp term,

395
00:18:29.770 --> 00:18:30.070
I think.

396
00:18:30.250 --> 00:18:31.811
And even me for a long time,

397
00:18:32.091 --> 00:18:34.293
even that was like really like a nature person,

398
00:18:35.133 --> 00:18:37.215
I didn't know for a long time what it was and

399
00:18:37.555 --> 00:18:38.496
I misunderstood it.

400
00:18:38.816 --> 00:18:39.657
So biodiversity,

401
00:18:39.957 --> 00:18:40.177
really,

402
00:18:40.217 --> 00:18:41.018
really simplified.

403
00:18:41.058 --> 00:18:44.340
You can Google it yourself and to have like more scientific definitions,

404
00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:45.521
but really down to it,

405
00:18:45.661 --> 00:18:47.462
it's the diversity of life on our planet.

406
00:18:48.082 --> 00:18:50.144
So we're really looking at everything that is alive.

407
00:18:50.872 --> 00:19:00.240
And the definition between like nature and biodiversity and why it's quite often it's mentioned side to side and not like as one term is that the natural world,

408
00:19:00.260 --> 00:19:01.361
at least from a scientific,

409
00:19:01.401 --> 00:19:03.743
from a Western scientific point,

410
00:19:04.163 --> 00:19:07.466
is considered as this like also like non-living plus the living.

411
00:19:07.546 --> 00:19:09.508
So in Western science,

412
00:19:09.509 --> 00:19:13.391
you would say like a mountain doesn't necessarily live or a river doesn't necessarily live.

413
00:19:13.851 --> 00:19:16.593
And so the biodiversity is the living part is like the fishes,

414
00:19:17.074 --> 00:19:17.334
you know,

415
00:19:17.494 --> 00:19:18.395
the plants and so forth.

416
00:19:19.116 --> 00:19:19.356
And.

417
00:19:19.832 --> 00:19:20.473
But for example,

418
00:19:20.493 --> 00:19:22.214
especially in indigenous communities,

419
00:19:22.274 --> 00:19:23.435
that's already not really true.

420
00:19:23.475 --> 00:19:24.275
And so that's where,

421
00:19:24.295 --> 00:19:24.476
again,

422
00:19:24.756 --> 00:19:26.417
we can totally get sidetracked.

423
00:19:26.797 --> 00:19:28.058
But when it comes to biodiversity,

424
00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:30.240
what the listener just needs to understand is like,

425
00:19:30.540 --> 00:19:32.361
there's three components of biodiversity.

426
00:19:32.622 --> 00:19:34.723
There's one that is species diversity.

427
00:19:34.823 --> 00:19:35.404
So this is like,

428
00:19:35.484 --> 00:19:35.784
let's say,

429
00:19:35.964 --> 00:19:38.246
what most people even know about biodiversity is like,

430
00:19:38.646 --> 00:19:39.386
it's the giraffes,

431
00:19:39.507 --> 00:19:40.267
the elephants,

432
00:19:40.307 --> 00:19:40.787
the wolves.

433
00:19:40.988 --> 00:19:43.890
So what kind of different species do you have?

434
00:19:44.750 --> 00:19:46.792
And the same goes for plants and for fungi and so forth.

435
00:19:47.276 --> 00:19:49.137
The second one is genetic diversity,

436
00:19:49.277 --> 00:19:50.217
which is really important too.

437
00:19:50.777 --> 00:19:53.038
So that is like when we come to humans,

438
00:19:53.258 --> 00:19:53.859
because again,

439
00:19:53.919 --> 00:19:54.739
we are part of nature,

440
00:19:55.419 --> 00:19:57.500
it's the eye colors,

441
00:19:57.520 --> 00:19:58.421
the sizes and so forth.

442
00:19:58.441 --> 00:20:01.942
And we need this genetic diversity within one species,

443
00:20:02.502 --> 00:20:03.943
because if we don't have that,

444
00:20:04.603 --> 00:20:05.844
then if there's a disease,

445
00:20:05.845 --> 00:20:06.344
for example,

446
00:20:06.345 --> 00:20:07.584
or something majorly happening,

447
00:20:08.144 --> 00:20:09.245
then it can just like,

448
00:20:10.285 --> 00:20:13.687
evaporate like the entire species because you don't have the resilience,

449
00:20:13.707 --> 00:20:15.227
you don't have diversity within that.

450
00:20:15.768 --> 00:20:16.448
And so if there's a...

451
00:20:17.076 --> 00:20:23.379
disease coming like COVID for example if we wouldn't have genetic diversity it would have been really really much much much worse than it was already.

452
00:20:24.139 --> 00:20:25.940
And the third one is ecosystem diversity.

453
00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:35.664
So in especially western news we talk a lot about the amazon rainforest and that is really really crucial and yet at the same time we need all the different ecosystems too.

454
00:20:35.824 --> 00:20:38.365
So we need like some unsexy one like marshlands,

455
00:20:38.405 --> 00:20:39.826
we need like the stone deserts,

456
00:20:39.846 --> 00:20:42.207
we need the coral reefs around the world,

457
00:20:42.208 --> 00:20:43.267
we need the grasslands,

458
00:20:43.287 --> 00:20:44.348
we need the wildflowers.

459
00:20:44.828 --> 00:20:47.949
All of these different ecosystems are really important.

460
00:20:47.969 --> 00:20:50.791
And so there's also like a diversity along that,

461
00:20:50.811 --> 00:20:56.073
a bit like where you need to take a step back and they bring all the different diversity of life.

462
00:20:56.753 --> 00:20:56.953
Okay,

463
00:20:56.973 --> 00:20:57.233
I see.

464
00:20:57.234 --> 00:20:59.294
So the diversity of species,

465
00:20:59.454 --> 00:21:00.815
the genetic diversity,

466
00:21:00.855 --> 00:21:03.516
and then the diversity of ecosystems.

467
00:21:04.796 --> 00:21:04.957
And

468
00:21:05.997 --> 00:21:07.758
I guess when we talk about biodiversity,

469
00:21:07.878 --> 00:21:10.679
usually we talk about it in a certain context,

470
00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:12.440
within certain boundaries,

471
00:21:12.500 --> 00:21:12.800
let's say.

472
00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:14.480
Because on the one hand,

473
00:21:14.481 --> 00:21:17.262
we could be looking at biodiversity globally.

474
00:21:17.602 --> 00:21:22.404
So that's all of the diversity of species and genetics and ecosystems on the whole planet.

475
00:21:23.444 --> 00:21:30.147
But a lot of the time we'll be talking about the biodiversity of a soil or of a teaspoon of soil even.

476
00:21:30.247 --> 00:21:32.948
So I guess there's different scales to be looking at this,

477
00:21:33.008 --> 00:21:33.228
right?

478
00:21:33.808 --> 00:21:33.928
Yeah,

479
00:21:33.988 --> 00:21:34.309
exactly.

480
00:21:34.389 --> 00:21:35.169
And I think,

481
00:21:35.829 --> 00:21:37.330
I don't exactly know the numbers,

482
00:21:37.331 --> 00:21:42.352
but I think it was like just a teaspoon of soil has already tons of more species of...

483
00:21:43.004 --> 00:21:46.626
different sorts of life than we could ever have imagined.

484
00:21:46.706 --> 00:21:50.468
I think it was like billions of species just within a teaspoon of soil.

485
00:21:50.488 --> 00:21:52.189
And there's so much still to explore.

486
00:21:53.110 --> 00:21:55.531
We still don't even know who our neighbors are on this planet.

487
00:21:56.111 --> 00:21:59.013
It depends on how micro you want to get.

488
00:21:59.193 --> 00:22:00.214
But even big stuff,

489
00:22:00.274 --> 00:22:02.395
like if we go into the deep sea,

490
00:22:02.455 --> 00:22:04.896
there's still some bigger things as well,

491
00:22:04.916 --> 00:22:05.697
like floating around.

492
00:22:05.777 --> 00:22:06.477
Sometimes in jungle,

493
00:22:06.657 --> 00:22:10.239
they still find new species of frogs and spiders and...

494
00:22:12.120 --> 00:22:13.541
flies and yeah,

495
00:22:13.542 --> 00:22:14.381
in the deep sea as well.

496
00:22:14.421 --> 00:22:15.701
And then if we go to the soil,

497
00:22:15.741 --> 00:22:15.961
I mean,

498
00:22:15.981 --> 00:22:18.682
there's like still like so much of a gap of like what we know,

499
00:22:19.843 --> 00:22:21.663
because yeah.

500
00:22:21.783 --> 00:22:22.143
So far,

501
00:22:22.244 --> 00:22:24.304
like quite often it has been underfunded.

502
00:22:24.404 --> 00:22:25.745
And so that's why there's not,

503
00:22:25.765 --> 00:22:27.825
there's still like a bit of a knowledge gap.

504
00:22:28.186 --> 00:22:28.406
Okay,

505
00:22:28.566 --> 00:22:28.686
yeah.

506
00:22:30.126 --> 00:22:32.747
How do we typically measure biodiversity?

507
00:22:33.808 --> 00:22:33.928
Yeah,

508
00:22:33.929 --> 00:22:34.988
so that's a bit like the tricky.

509
00:22:35.328 --> 00:22:36.748
part when we compare it,

510
00:22:36.808 --> 00:22:37.129
let's say,

511
00:22:37.309 --> 00:22:39.489
often we try to compare it with like carbon,

512
00:22:39.569 --> 00:22:39.749
like,

513
00:22:39.849 --> 00:22:43.030
why don't we give like biodiversity a carbon ton or something like this?

514
00:22:43.870 --> 00:22:47.231
A problematic a bit with biodiversity is because of the diversity,

515
00:22:48.092 --> 00:22:49.232
you probably guessed it,

516
00:22:49.452 --> 00:22:52.733
it's like not as straightforward because you have different contexts.

517
00:22:52.773 --> 00:22:59.295
So let's say you have a different diversity and different like ecosystem and how it works in the coral reef than in the rainforest and so forth.

518
00:22:59.296 --> 00:22:59.855
So it's very,

519
00:23:01.455 --> 00:23:02.976
like scientists also like arguing,

520
00:23:03.056 --> 00:23:03.736
will there ever be

521
00:23:04.056 --> 00:23:06.938
like one key KPI that we say like,

522
00:23:06.978 --> 00:23:07.199
okay,

523
00:23:07.239 --> 00:23:08.840
we're going to try to optimize it or not.

524
00:23:09.080 --> 00:23:10.521
And so right now,

525
00:23:10.581 --> 00:23:12.123
at least we can say there is none.

526
00:23:12.383 --> 00:23:14.284
And most likely there will be none.

527
00:23:14.725 --> 00:23:15.365
Never say never,

528
00:23:15.605 --> 00:23:16.766
at least in my perspective,

529
00:23:16.846 --> 00:23:22.591
but I doubt that there will be one because of just the different contexts and the different complexities.

530
00:23:22.671 --> 00:23:24.132
But what I can say is like,

531
00:23:24.533 --> 00:23:24.653
so...

532
00:23:25.401 --> 00:23:28.504
You don't want life on earth to reduce itself.

533
00:23:28.505 --> 00:23:29.745
You don't want just to have humans.

534
00:23:30.385 --> 00:23:31.066
That would be really,

535
00:23:31.086 --> 00:23:31.727
really unhealthy.

536
00:23:31.867 --> 00:23:33.788
You want other species of life around us.

537
00:23:34.389 --> 00:23:36.290
And then you have a look a bit like,

538
00:23:36.331 --> 00:23:36.611
okay,

539
00:23:37.311 --> 00:23:38.572
how is that influenced?

540
00:23:38.753 --> 00:23:41.155
How is that life on earth influenced?

541
00:23:41.195 --> 00:23:43.317
And then you're looking at habitat loss.

542
00:23:43.477 --> 00:23:45.518
You're looking at how rich,

543
00:23:45.719 --> 00:23:47.760
how many species do we have in certain areas?

544
00:23:48.241 --> 00:23:49.902
How abundant is this species?

545
00:23:50.142 --> 00:23:51.764
How are the populations looking like?

546
00:23:51.765 --> 00:23:52.244
So if we have,

547
00:23:52.245 --> 00:23:52.805
for example,

548
00:23:53.233 --> 00:24:09.057
a wolf but then there's just like one wolf in there like you know in the entire forest and you know like okay not really biodiversity rich because how likely is it that the wolf somehow will reproduce not really uh you're looking at extinction rates for example where there's

549
00:24:09.157 --> 00:24:22.641
natural extinction rates and then there's really like due to human actions now it's just like 10 to 100 times higher than the natural extinction rates so there's there's different kpis that people are looking at and they will give you a bit of an

550
00:24:22.961 --> 00:24:46.671
overall feeling of like okay it's really not going in the right direction and i'm a big fan of metrics because i think in the end they help us with like you know what's gets measured gets improved and i do believe this but i also like everybody especially because we were talking earlier about like getting outside just go outside and look a bit around you like how much life and how much abundance of life do you see would

551
00:24:46.672 --> 00:24:51.293
you consider that a lot or not and uh you

552
00:24:51.509 --> 00:24:52.530
And a lot of listeners,

553
00:24:52.670 --> 00:24:53.911
if they go out and so forth,

554
00:24:53.951 --> 00:24:58.014
I will promise them life is not as abundant as it used to be.

555
00:24:58.715 --> 00:25:00.176
And yeah,

556
00:25:00.216 --> 00:25:06.201
it's going to be sometimes a bit harder to find a lot of different species and having especially bigger mammals.

557
00:25:06.501 --> 00:25:08.123
Or walking around the city.

558
00:25:08.703 --> 00:25:09.464
If you're maybe lucky,

559
00:25:09.524 --> 00:25:12.867
maybe have leopards and rhinos and so forth in your cities.

560
00:25:12.927 --> 00:25:14.528
But in a lot of cities,

561
00:25:14.568 --> 00:25:15.969
especially in Europe and so forth,

562
00:25:15.970 --> 00:25:16.510
we don't have that.

563
00:25:17.090 --> 00:25:18.031
Yeah,

564
00:25:18.471 --> 00:25:20.553
but maybe one of the key issues with...

565
00:25:20.957 --> 00:25:43.592
measuring biodiversity using your senses is that there's something called the shifting baseline syndrome and basically the idea is that imagine someone a hundred years ago walking through a forest and they would see a lot of birds and insects and different species of plants and you know it would be very rich in biodiversity and that for that person would be the

566
00:25:43.612 --> 00:25:50.357
norm yeah but imagine the same person then walking the same ecosystem today a hundred years later and it has lost

567
00:25:50.997 --> 00:25:51.257
70%

568
00:25:51.798 --> 00:25:53.039
of its biodiversity,

569
00:25:54.260 --> 00:25:57.202
that person would see that ecosystem as having a problem,

570
00:25:57.463 --> 00:25:58.243
as being unhealthy,

571
00:25:58.543 --> 00:25:59.905
as lacking biodiversity.

572
00:26:00.145 --> 00:26:01.326
But someone born today,

573
00:26:01.506 --> 00:26:03.207
seeing that ecosystem for the first time,

574
00:26:03.307 --> 00:26:05.429
would see it as being healthy,

575
00:26:05.529 --> 00:26:06.290
as being the norm,

576
00:26:06.730 --> 00:26:06.930
right?

577
00:26:07.731 --> 00:26:08.071
Yeah,

578
00:26:08.131 --> 00:26:10.313
I'm so happy that you brought that up,

579
00:26:10.333 --> 00:26:11.154
because it's like,

580
00:26:11.714 --> 00:26:12.215
literally,

581
00:26:12.535 --> 00:26:16.779
the shifting baseline is one of the three key components that I try to tackle in my life.

582
00:26:16.819 --> 00:26:19.341
Because the shifting baseline syndrome I was as well.

583
00:26:19.561 --> 00:26:21.442
a bit of a scientific and a bit mouthful.

584
00:26:22.503 --> 00:26:22.943
But in the end,

585
00:26:22.944 --> 00:26:25.845
it just means that we forget about nature with every generation,

586
00:26:26.245 --> 00:26:26.666
as you said.

587
00:26:27.386 --> 00:26:34.091
And I think this is like such a crucial concept that only a small percentage of this population know about.

588
00:26:34.151 --> 00:26:34.811
And that's really,

589
00:26:34.851 --> 00:26:36.192
really scaring me because in the end,

590
00:26:36.592 --> 00:26:37.393
exactly as you said,

591
00:26:37.553 --> 00:26:40.175
it means that just with every generation,

592
00:26:40.176 --> 00:26:43.677
we just got used to a depleted version of the natural world.

593
00:26:44.237 --> 00:26:45.517
until none will be left.

594
00:26:45.737 --> 00:26:46.518
And that's right now,

595
00:26:46.538 --> 00:26:47.658
at least the traction that we're on.

596
00:26:47.738 --> 00:26:48.478
We can break it.

597
00:26:48.518 --> 00:26:49.899
We can be the generation that says like,

598
00:26:49.900 --> 00:26:50.019
no,

599
00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:50.359
actually,

600
00:26:50.360 --> 00:26:50.819
you know what?

601
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:52.079
We're going to stop here.

602
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:53.119
But so far,

603
00:26:53.179 --> 00:26:55.420
that was the trend that basically everybody was like,

604
00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:55.620
oh,

605
00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:56.900
this is like a lot of butterflies.

606
00:26:57.060 --> 00:26:57.501
But in the end,

607
00:26:57.502 --> 00:26:58.421
it was only like 10%

608
00:26:58.422 --> 00:26:59.661
of the butterflies that used to be there.

609
00:27:00.361 --> 00:27:00.902
Or you say like,

610
00:27:00.922 --> 00:27:01.042
oh,

611
00:27:01.062 --> 00:27:01.842
this is a lot of fish.

612
00:27:02.262 --> 00:27:02.582
But no,

613
00:27:02.682 --> 00:27:07.283
there were some situations where people couldn't paddle because there was like so much fish there.

614
00:27:07.343 --> 00:27:07.703
Or like,

615
00:27:07.723 --> 00:27:07.943
you know,

616
00:27:07.983 --> 00:27:08.584
so it's just like,

617
00:27:09.084 --> 00:27:11.264
what do we consider as abundant?

618
00:27:11.764 --> 00:27:12.745
And if you take people...

619
00:27:13.905 --> 00:27:17.287
if you take a lot of Europeans out of the cities right now,

620
00:27:18.067 --> 00:27:21.869
you will put them into and go with them into nature.

621
00:27:22.870 --> 00:27:30.194
And they just like basically take them to monoculture farms and they would define that as nature because it's a green field and it's green.

622
00:27:30.314 --> 00:27:31.174
So that's nature.

623
00:27:32.315 --> 00:27:35.076
And we really need to teach people again,

624
00:27:35.116 --> 00:27:35.337
like,

625
00:27:35.597 --> 00:27:35.817
okay,

626
00:27:35.997 --> 00:27:39.619
this was what it used to look like before we altered it,

627
00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:41.460
before we changed how it looked like.

628
00:27:42.120 --> 00:27:43.041
And we...

629
00:27:44.197 --> 00:27:45.438
going to turn back entirely,

630
00:27:45.578 --> 00:27:46.319
it's going to be tricky,

631
00:27:46.819 --> 00:27:51.864
but there's definitely steps that we can take so that more life returns and that will benefit all of us.

632
00:27:52.224 --> 00:27:52.404
Okay.

633
00:27:52.604 --> 00:27:52.744
Yeah.

634
00:27:54.726 --> 00:28:00.091
I just wanted to take a really short break from this conversation to tell you about the official partner of this podcast,

635
00:28:00.431 --> 00:28:01.091
Soil Capital.

636
00:28:02.212 --> 00:28:08.378
One of the biggest levers to motivate farmers in their transition to regenerative agriculture is financial incentives.

637
00:28:08.838 --> 00:28:11.040
And that's exactly what Soil Capital is doing.

638
00:28:12.541 --> 00:28:16.406
rewarding farmers who improve things like soil health or biodiversity.

639
00:28:17.307 --> 00:28:21.813
What they're doing is really inspiring and I'm super proud to be partnering with them for the podcast.

640
00:28:24.131 --> 00:28:26.612
Still talking about the idea of measuring biodiversity,

641
00:28:26.692 --> 00:28:27.673
we hear numbers.

642
00:28:27.753 --> 00:28:29.313
I don't have them on the top of my head,

643
00:28:29.314 --> 00:28:30.334
but things like we've lost

644
00:28:31.094 --> 00:28:34.275
70% of individuals or things like that.

645
00:28:34.575 --> 00:28:40.998
What are the metrics that we do have that we can say this has happened in the last 100 years or so?

646
00:28:41.318 --> 00:28:41.618
Yeah,

647
00:28:41.658 --> 00:28:41.859
sure.

648
00:28:41.939 --> 00:28:44.039
So there's numerous ones.

649
00:28:44.059 --> 00:28:44.680
So one is,

650
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:45.460
for example,

651
00:28:45.980 --> 00:28:47.181
there's tons of scientific papers,

652
00:28:47.241 --> 00:28:48.882
but one is really powerful that

653
00:28:49.562 --> 00:28:50.522
1 million species.

654
00:28:50.523 --> 00:28:51.743
So that's not individuals,

655
00:28:51.763 --> 00:28:52.123
but that's

656
00:28:52.463 --> 00:29:07.609
different species and every species has like different number of like how many individuals are still within that species but one million species are facing extinction in the next decades if we continue business as usual and that is usually increasing because

657
00:29:07.649 --> 00:29:21.835
we're also talking about agriculture and like how we can change it and how it can be part of a positive change agriculture has been responsible for 70 percent of biodiversity loss on land due to especially like deforestation and

658
00:29:22.235 --> 00:29:37.759
that is of course like a number that's like quite okay um on land um and we yeah and what else what else is there i mean we have the extinction rates so like nature's

659
00:29:37.899 --> 00:29:51.143
not the normal that i mean there's no dinosaurs anymore and so like and there's also like tons of other animals not anymore that like the mammoth and so forth and there's always like the question of like okay what is the natural kind of rate of extinction

660
00:29:51.563 --> 00:30:10.742
that just happens due to outside events or just like species adapting and going too hardcore and then the species can't adopt anymore and yeah it gets extinct but the rate that we're currently on and that is due to our activities is like 10 to 100 times higher and i think this is like a really powerful metric so then

661
00:30:11.163 --> 00:30:15.247
10 to 100 times higher than the natural rate okay so now due to

662
00:30:15.507 --> 00:30:34.663
human activity we are losing species 10 to 100 times faster than it would normally be the case yeah exactly yeah okay yeah and so that's like uh that's like okay um that's a big one and um and then as well like one that i like which regarding metrics i think is like quite interesting to just like sometimes

663
00:30:34.763 --> 00:30:44.031
challenge our misconceptions of the world is that if you look at like just the amount of like life that is on earth actually if we look at animals

664
00:30:44.331 --> 00:31:00.096
in the national geographic you always see like different whales and like you see the Serengeti with the zebras and the wildebeest so we think there's so much abundant life out there but if you look at like mammals which are like elephants like buffalo and so forth there's

665
00:31:00.136 --> 00:31:09.379
actually 90 how much was it i think 96 percent of it of mammals on earth i actually park

666
00:31:09.719 --> 00:31:15.504
and like pigs and cows and so forth and goats and so forth.

667
00:31:15.544 --> 00:31:17.225
So all for our like agriculture.

668
00:31:17.706 --> 00:31:22.249
This is actually the abundant mammal life on Earth is actually those.

669
00:31:22.570 --> 00:31:23.831
And then if we consider us,

670
00:31:23.911 --> 00:31:24.411
then of course,

671
00:31:24.431 --> 00:31:25.452
like the ratio is a bit different.

672
00:31:25.472 --> 00:31:26.573
I think it's around like 60%

673
00:31:26.873 --> 00:31:28.394
or something is like from agriculture.

674
00:31:28.434 --> 00:31:29.095
Then 30%

675
00:31:29.096 --> 00:31:29.876
I think is like humans.

676
00:31:30.256 --> 00:31:31.217
And then only 3%

677
00:31:32.037 --> 00:31:35.680
of like this biomass on our planet is like wildlife.

678
00:31:36.721 --> 00:31:36.921
Okay.

679
00:31:36.981 --> 00:31:37.141
Yeah.

680
00:31:37.181 --> 00:31:38.843
So if we measure in terms of

681
00:31:39.431 --> 00:31:42.694
total biomass of living creatures on the planet.

682
00:31:43.795 --> 00:31:44.475
Only 3%

683
00:31:44.615 --> 00:31:46.997
of that is still wild and everything else.

684
00:31:46.998 --> 00:31:47.958
So 97%

685
00:31:48.138 --> 00:31:52.282
is both humans and animals we breathe for human consumption.

686
00:31:52.742 --> 00:31:52.882
Yeah,

687
00:31:53.062 --> 00:31:53.823
only like 3%

688
00:31:53.963 --> 00:31:57.666
of this entire like of all the mammals and of all the things that you see on land.

689
00:31:57.766 --> 00:32:00.609
It's like and the same goes for like birds.

690
00:32:01.069 --> 00:32:01.970
I think it's like 70%

691
00:32:02.230 --> 00:32:08.055
of something is poultry like a sort of like chicken and turkeys and so forth and only like 30 to 20.

692
00:32:08.195 --> 00:32:09.075
20 to 30%

693
00:32:09.076 --> 00:32:10.896
is like wild birds.

694
00:32:10.897 --> 00:32:13.117
That's a crazy number when you really think about it.

695
00:32:13.557 --> 00:32:13.697
Yeah.

696
00:32:14.117 --> 00:32:14.257
Yeah.

697
00:32:15.197 --> 00:32:17.538
I'm glad that you brought up agriculture.

698
00:32:17.778 --> 00:32:17.918
Yeah.

699
00:32:18.478 --> 00:32:21.399
Because this is the central topic of this podcast usually.

700
00:32:21.439 --> 00:32:22.179
And I really wanted to,

701
00:32:22.419 --> 00:32:22.859
of course,

702
00:32:22.979 --> 00:32:26.461
make the connection between biodiversity and regenerative agriculture.

703
00:32:28.681 --> 00:32:34.323
We often hear in Region Act that there's a few key pillars and diversity is one of them.

704
00:32:35.063 --> 00:32:43.130
And so that's a great opportunity here to focus on that pillar and to really try to understand why biodiversity is so important to a healthy,

705
00:32:43.750 --> 00:32:44.351
resilient,

706
00:32:44.751 --> 00:32:46.752
efficient system for a farmer.

707
00:32:48.734 --> 00:32:49.254
What's the question?

708
00:32:50.355 --> 00:32:53.998
Could you maybe explain why biodiversity is so important for a farming system?

709
00:32:55.339 --> 00:32:56.039
Yeah,

710
00:32:56.040 --> 00:32:56.940
I think in the end,

711
00:32:57.020 --> 00:33:00.323
agriculture is like the most effective one and they have like the biggest...

712
00:33:01.191 --> 00:33:19.026
interest into keeping like the natural world as diverse as possible and that's due to numerous things so one is the pollination so pollination used to happen like a lot like naturally so you had like different pollinators that were doing their job and that were like pollinating the crops the trees and so forth and so if

713
00:33:19.066 --> 00:33:30.295
you would have to do this manually now you have a totally different economics of like that you need to consider like how do you pollinate if you have to do this manually by hand it's just not it's just impossible if you have to again

714
00:33:31.255 --> 00:33:34.477
get some more technology like bee drones or whatever,

715
00:33:34.598 --> 00:33:38.060
you have another investment that you need to make in order to purchase them,

716
00:33:38.100 --> 00:33:39.261
to maintain them and so forth.

717
00:33:39.281 --> 00:33:40.802
So one is like pollination,

718
00:33:40.982 --> 00:33:42.723
which is just like if you have more diversity,

719
00:33:42.984 --> 00:33:46.146
if you actually really do a good job on biodiversity front,

720
00:33:46.426 --> 00:33:47.487
you will have more pollinators,

721
00:33:47.547 --> 00:33:50.249
which are good for your whatever crop you grow,

722
00:33:50.449 --> 00:33:51.390
if you need pollination.

723
00:33:52.551 --> 00:33:52.811
Water.

724
00:33:53.391 --> 00:33:56.213
So we know that more biodiverse places,

725
00:33:56.313 --> 00:33:58.195
they're really good when it comes to water retention.

726
00:33:59.196 --> 00:34:00.677
like when it comes to avoiding floods,

727
00:34:00.737 --> 00:34:01.998
by avoiding white fires,

728
00:34:02.518 --> 00:34:05.680
by creating a better water quality.

729
00:34:06.060 --> 00:34:07.301
So like biodiversity,

730
00:34:07.641 --> 00:34:08.642
like for example beavers,

731
00:34:09.022 --> 00:34:18.069
they're just like incredible engineers that just like create these like wetlands so that we can restore more water and especially in a place that gets drier and drier and drier.

732
00:34:18.289 --> 00:34:19.890
You can imagine that this is really important.

733
00:34:20.931 --> 00:34:26.495
Climate regulation and like carbon sequencing and capturing all the carbon out of the air.

734
00:34:26.775 --> 00:34:30.298
which is also quite important for farming because in the end you don't want to really have a hotter planet.

735
00:34:30.318 --> 00:34:30.918
It's not good for,

736
00:34:31.358 --> 00:34:37.043
no matter if you're a cattle range farmer or if you're growing some crops,

737
00:34:37.543 --> 00:34:39.264
you don't want to have a hotter planet.

738
00:34:39.304 --> 00:34:44.208
And so biodiversity helps a lot in cooling us down and to regulate the climate.

739
00:34:45.369 --> 00:34:45.729
What else?

740
00:34:45.829 --> 00:34:47.831
There's diseases regulation.

741
00:34:47.871 --> 00:34:49.712
So if you have more biodiversity,

742
00:34:50.373 --> 00:34:53.195
then usually you don't have the tendency of just like...

743
00:34:53.435 --> 00:35:19.382
one thing being like attacking everything and just destroying everything if you have a really functioning ecosystem then it's self-regulating so it wouldn't let something like this happen that let's take if you have wolves um wolves are quite important to keep in check the deep population because if the deer population if there's no wolves the deer population will probably go through the roof and they will kill a lot of the younger trees and so forth and so in

744
00:35:19.383 --> 00:35:22.903
the end the wolves are coming in the deer is getting a bit more skittish

745
00:35:23.331 --> 00:35:47.846
and then they're gonna you know they go a bit away and so the same happens with all smaller insects as well and so forth it's like you want diversity because then it's self-regulating and so if you have that diversity you have less risks of like your your plants and or your animals to run into like diseases and so yeah um and there's like yeah there's like so much more and we can talk hours about it but yeah but let's i don't know but

746
00:35:47.926 --> 00:35:48.987
um yeah you you give

747
00:35:49.427 --> 00:36:07.992
some really great examples here but i would love to dig a bit deeper and you know get into more detail yeah like the beaver we hear so much about them being these amazing uh keystone species maybe you could explain why that is yeah so first for the listeners that haven't heard the term like keystone species means like all

748
00:36:08.032 --> 00:36:16.615
species are important but then there's certain species that just like are that build a lot of like they build really like the environment so that

749
00:36:17.491 --> 00:36:20.493
all the other species are going to keep on flourishing as well.

750
00:36:20.494 --> 00:36:25.256
So they just have a slightly more impact on their ecosystem than other species.

751
00:36:26.057 --> 00:36:28.979
The keystone from that famous bridge of like,

752
00:36:28.999 --> 00:36:31.981
if you have tons of stones and if you have them a bit like a bridge,

753
00:36:32.261 --> 00:36:35.463
there's one stone that kind of connects the arc.

754
00:36:36.004 --> 00:36:37.144
And if you would take that one out,

755
00:36:37.145 --> 00:36:38.245
the entire bridge would collapse.

756
00:36:38.246 --> 00:36:39.366
And that's the keystone species.

757
00:36:39.406 --> 00:36:40.146
And so when you come,

758
00:36:40.667 --> 00:36:41.727
when we talk about the beavers,

759
00:36:41.747 --> 00:36:46.871
it's like one of those keystone species because they create an entirely ecosystem where now like there's more

760
00:36:47.819 --> 00:37:03.609
yeah there's an entirely new species like popping up and they create this diversity that wasn't necessarily there before and they're so important especially when we look into the agriculture through the agriculture lens because of the water now they

761
00:37:03.769 --> 00:37:05.330
basically what they do is they

762
00:37:08.327 --> 00:37:11.049
They start to fell trees and they start to create wetlands.

763
00:37:11.089 --> 00:37:16.114
So they come in where before maybe there was just like a dried area and there was just like a river.

764
00:37:16.554 --> 00:37:18.596
And they actually start to sometimes,

765
00:37:19.136 --> 00:37:19.396
you know,

766
00:37:19.416 --> 00:37:23.900
like shift the direction of the rivers and they start to flood certain bits.

767
00:37:23.901 --> 00:37:27.343
And that's why quite often they're also not necessarily popular with farmers,

768
00:37:27.383 --> 00:37:34.008
because you don't want to have a certain variable on your land that is just like redirecting water from one place to the other.

769
00:37:34.529 --> 00:37:35.970
But it's very important because they...

770
00:37:36.570 --> 00:37:54.705
they allow you so they create basically the system so that when there is the next heavy rainfall that this water will actually go into the soil and this water will actually be stored and that it's not just like going to float off and say a lot of rivers for example in europe they're they're straight and so if

771
00:37:54.765 --> 00:38:05.594
beavers are coming in and they create these like side pockets of rivers and they create these wetlands then with heavy rainfall it will actually get the water into more diverse pockets whereas

772
00:38:05.994 --> 00:38:07.855
Right now it's basically just flushing down.

773
00:38:08.296 --> 00:38:09.657
So what happens exactly?

774
00:38:09.737 --> 00:38:11.658
We have these fairly straight rivers,

775
00:38:11.738 --> 00:38:12.699
then the beavers come in,

776
00:38:12.899 --> 00:38:17.102
they build their nests on the river that slows down the water,

777
00:38:17.302 --> 00:38:18.943
that makes it drift to the side,

778
00:38:18.963 --> 00:38:19.844
creates these curves.

779
00:38:19.904 --> 00:38:20.084
Yeah,

780
00:38:20.144 --> 00:38:20.444
exactly.

781
00:38:20.684 --> 00:38:20.884
Right?

782
00:38:21.585 --> 00:38:21.725
Yeah.

783
00:38:21.825 --> 00:38:24.707
And keeps improving or changing in that way,

784
00:38:24.807 --> 00:38:25.027
right?

785
00:38:25.187 --> 00:38:25.348
Yeah,

786
00:38:26.088 --> 00:38:26.368
exactly.

787
00:38:26.548 --> 00:38:27.669
So they build the dams and then...

788
00:38:28.450 --> 00:38:33.253
Maybe I have to find this picture and maybe you can share it in the show notes or something.

789
00:38:33.473 --> 00:38:34.234
It was like a river.

790
00:38:34.714 --> 00:38:35.775
And basically on one side,

791
00:38:35.815 --> 00:38:38.097
it's like a bit brownish and has like a lot of soil,

792
00:38:38.517 --> 00:38:40.199
a lot of sediments and so forth in there.

793
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:44.363
And then basically it goes through the stem and on the other side you have like clean water.

794
00:38:44.383 --> 00:38:46.404
And so it's like a water purifier as well.

795
00:38:46.545 --> 00:38:49.527
So like the really like the water quality is usually very,

796
00:38:49.607 --> 00:38:50.848
very high when it comes to beavers.

797
00:38:50.849 --> 00:38:52.029
And so that's really important.

798
00:38:52.650 --> 00:38:53.431
And that being said,

799
00:38:53.711 --> 00:38:54.091
of course,

800
00:38:54.111 --> 00:38:58.055
if you have like tons of like chemical plants and if you have tons of like toxic plants and so forth,

801
00:38:58.375 --> 00:38:59.836
beaver can only do as much.

802
00:39:00.277 --> 00:39:01.018
But like as a...

803
00:39:01.658 --> 00:39:20.103
if you try to imagine beavers a bit like they're really great when it comes to like retaining waters avoiding wildfires and boosting other species improving water quality and so forth okay you also mentioned pollinators we hear a lot about bees like this fear of losing bees what do we do what's

804
00:39:20.104 --> 00:39:30.366
the situation there maybe you could like get a little bit more detailed about the role of pollinators the different types of pollinators and how they contribute to agriculture yeah

805
00:39:30.686 --> 00:39:30.806
No,

806
00:39:30.886 --> 00:39:31.706
that's a good point.

807
00:39:32.967 --> 00:39:33.347
First of all,

808
00:39:33.887 --> 00:39:36.047
insects are rarely loved in our society.

809
00:39:36.168 --> 00:39:39.048
And so first

810
00:39:39.789 --> 00:39:46.350
I would invite everybody to have another look at insects because they're really cool and they give us a lot of nice stuff like chocolate.

811
00:39:46.490 --> 00:39:48.171
Chocolate is done because of the mosquito.

812
00:39:49.471 --> 00:39:50.792
The mosquito is actually pollinating.

813
00:39:52.552 --> 00:39:57.773
You have also these honeybees and they are mostly used,

814
00:39:57.774 --> 00:39:58.094
let's say,

815
00:39:58.214 --> 00:39:58.694
in a lot of...

816
00:39:59.902 --> 00:40:22.098
a lot of agriculture but pollination is happening all around the world in different ecosystems of the natural world like you have like hummingbirds that are pollinating and you have even found just like just a couple of weeks ago they found out that there's this Ethiopian wolf that apparently does like pollinating as well so there's really like pollinating goes beyond like let's say the honeybees that we often like talk about and

817
00:40:22.839 --> 00:40:26.982
now they're really crucial because a lot of our plants they depend on pollination

818
00:40:27.594 --> 00:40:30.815
in order so that we can then grow some fruits out of it,

819
00:40:30.875 --> 00:40:31.655
some nuts out of it,

820
00:40:31.675 --> 00:40:32.235
and so forth,

821
00:40:32.275 --> 00:40:35.056
like almonds that you talked about in your introduction.

822
00:40:35.176 --> 00:40:38.757
And so if we don't have these kind of pollinators,

823
00:40:39.737 --> 00:40:39.958
one,

824
00:40:41.378 --> 00:40:43.779
we wouldn't have all of these products anymore.

825
00:40:43.979 --> 00:40:45.059
So we couldn't have this.

826
00:40:45.279 --> 00:40:47.820
And a lot of food is dependent on pollination,

827
00:40:47.860 --> 00:40:49.420
so we would have food shortages,

828
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:52.581
which is not really something that we should aspire to have.

829
00:40:53.261 --> 00:40:55.562
And it would also drive up the cost because now if you

830
00:40:56.050 --> 00:40:57.691
If you want to keep on pollinating,

831
00:40:57.831 --> 00:40:59.452
you will have to come up with an idea.

832
00:40:59.512 --> 00:40:59.752
Okay,

833
00:41:00.593 --> 00:41:01.013
how do I,

834
00:41:01.113 --> 00:41:01.473
how do I,

835
00:41:01.474 --> 00:41:02.173
I'm going to do this.

836
00:41:02.954 --> 00:41:03.314
By hand.

837
00:41:03.634 --> 00:41:04.034
And yeah,

838
00:41:04.035 --> 00:41:04.575
just by hand.

839
00:41:04.675 --> 00:41:07.676
So now try to do this with like almonds and with cherries and with everything.

840
00:41:07.716 --> 00:41:07.936
And so,

841
00:41:09.497 --> 00:41:09.617
yeah,

842
00:41:09.677 --> 00:41:10.178
not a good idea.

843
00:41:12.339 --> 00:41:13.459
And last but not least as well,

844
00:41:13.860 --> 00:41:15.621
if we talked about diversity.

845
00:41:15.721 --> 00:41:17.622
So every little animal,

846
00:41:17.742 --> 00:41:18.822
even if you like them or not,

847
00:41:19.423 --> 00:41:22.564
or like plant or fungi has a role to play in this natural world.

848
00:41:22.804 --> 00:41:23.545
Nature is no dummy.

849
00:41:24.025 --> 00:41:25.426
They don't create things that are useless.

850
00:41:25.786 --> 00:41:28.007
So even if you think sometimes like a wasp is useless,

851
00:41:28.008 --> 00:41:28.948
a bee is useless,

852
00:41:29.008 --> 00:41:30.148
a mosquito is useless,

853
00:41:30.168 --> 00:41:31.049
a tick is useless,

854
00:41:31.829 --> 00:41:32.610
that's not the case.

855
00:41:32.650 --> 00:41:36.272
Like every single living thing has a role to play.

856
00:41:36.472 --> 00:41:37.913
And you're not always going to like it,

857
00:41:38.673 --> 00:41:40.154
but especially when it comes to pollination,

858
00:41:40.774 --> 00:41:47.598
we actually like it a lot because we use all the products in our like almonds and like honey and chocolate and so forth.

859
00:41:47.618 --> 00:41:49.059
Like just imagine like a world without it.

860
00:41:49.759 --> 00:41:49.939
Yeah,

861
00:41:49.979 --> 00:41:50.119
yeah.

862
00:41:50.640 --> 00:41:51.840
But what's the damage so far?

863
00:41:52.741 --> 00:41:54.682
Obviously agriculture is using

864
00:41:55.518 --> 00:41:56.258
maybe 50%

865
00:41:56.959 --> 00:41:58.079
of the land,

866
00:41:58.439 --> 00:41:59.019
something like that.

867
00:41:59.479 --> 00:42:00.500
A bit of land,

868
00:42:00.501 --> 00:42:00.580
yeah.

869
00:42:00.581 --> 00:42:01.140
A bit of land.

870
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:03.941
We use a lot of pesticide,

871
00:42:03.961 --> 00:42:04.981
a lot of chemicals,

872
00:42:05.061 --> 00:42:06.742
which are really bad for these pollinators.

873
00:42:06.762 --> 00:42:08.242
We hear that they've been disappearing.

874
00:42:09.023 --> 00:42:13.704
Is there any stats that we should know to have a general idea of where we stand?

875
00:42:16.045 --> 00:42:17.266
General stats.

876
00:42:19.142 --> 00:42:20.082
The top of mind?

877
00:42:20.122 --> 00:42:21.403
I'm pretty sure there are.

878
00:42:21.503 --> 00:42:22.243
I'm pretty sure there are.

879
00:42:22.244 --> 00:42:22.463
I mean,

880
00:42:24.864 --> 00:42:25.324
already in the

881
00:42:26.184 --> 00:42:28.665
70s, I think it was written in the 70s or 80s,

882
00:42:28.725 --> 00:42:32.086
there was a book called really famous and it's called The Silent Spring,

883
00:42:32.206 --> 00:42:34.506
just because she already noticed like,

884
00:42:34.666 --> 00:42:35.247
it was just like,

885
00:42:35.387 --> 00:42:38.047
there were less and less and less insects and that that can't be good.

886
00:42:40.148 --> 00:42:41.008
At the top of my mind,

887
00:42:41.048 --> 00:42:41.728
I have to say like,

888
00:42:41.768 --> 00:42:43.629
I don't know exactly the pollination,

889
00:42:45.169 --> 00:42:46.870
how they shrink because it's well like...

890
00:42:47.430 --> 00:43:10.136
it's it's like regarding counting it's not always like easy yeah of course so some uh some for example in the in the bees um they have also like different families and some species are a bit more affected than others but let's say it like this it is really really not a good situation because now what they started to do if you talked about almonds and you talked about california they started to ship pollinators

891
00:43:10.216 --> 00:43:15.998
from one place to the other just because there's not enough natural pollinators anymore and so now actually

892
00:43:16.554 --> 00:43:36.946
producing almonds becomes very very expensive because now you have a cost that was usually taken over by nature on nature's tap now we actually as a company or we as a government or we as a society have to come up with solutions of transporting sometimes pollinators just because yeah we eradicated them through our different practices i'm

893
00:43:37.546 --> 00:43:43.410
sometimes struggling to understand how we managed to keep going this way for so long because i hear that

894
00:43:44.422 --> 00:43:52.206
Pollinators are crucial for food production and I hear that their numbers have been declining drastically over the last few decades.

895
00:43:53.227 --> 00:43:53.787
But that said,

896
00:43:53.827 --> 00:43:58.990
I haven't heard anything about an issue with yields dropping due to the lack of pollinators.

897
00:44:00.031 --> 00:44:00.671
So yeah,

898
00:44:00.731 --> 00:44:01.331
what's going on there?

899
00:44:02.472 --> 00:44:02.632
Yeah,

900
00:44:02.672 --> 00:44:02.932
I mean,

901
00:44:03.052 --> 00:44:03.753
one thing is that,

902
00:44:04.213 --> 00:44:04.453
I mean,

903
00:44:04.473 --> 00:44:05.074
there's also like,

904
00:44:05.894 --> 00:44:09.036
so there's obviously the natural world of like the pollinators that they provide.

905
00:44:09.037 --> 00:44:10.236
And then you can like breed,

906
00:44:10.517 --> 00:44:12.918
like you can breed like the...

907
00:44:13.358 --> 00:44:28.844
species that you need and that sometimes are maybe the most efficient so what we've seen is like they breed bees that are especially sufficient and especially efficient to do a certain job of like pollinating and so you can counterbalance let's say the natural one

908
00:44:28.904 --> 00:44:41.870
and you can subsidize by like releasing more like breed bees and so forth it's just like you wouldn't have to do that if you if you if you would have the natural like diversity still in order um

909
00:44:42.470 --> 00:44:42.770
So yeah,

910
00:44:42.810 --> 00:44:44.091
that has what we've been doing.

911
00:44:44.131 --> 00:44:44.432
Plus,

912
00:44:45.953 --> 00:44:46.353
quite often,

913
00:44:46.573 --> 00:44:46.814
this

914
00:44:47.254 --> 00:44:48.375
B-circle and so forth,

915
00:44:48.376 --> 00:44:49.296
they die really quickly.

916
00:44:49.356 --> 00:44:50.436
And so in the end,

917
00:44:50.537 --> 00:44:53.799
we just keep on subsidizing and put more and more into breeding those.

918
00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:56.041
And the life cycles just get shorter and shorter,

919
00:44:56.401 --> 00:44:57.322
which means in the end,

920
00:44:57.382 --> 00:44:59.204
you're just subsidizing it with money.

921
00:44:59.744 --> 00:45:03.767
You invest into breeding them and then releasing them.

922
00:45:04.328 --> 00:45:04.848
As often,

923
00:45:05.288 --> 00:45:06.650
a very short-sighted solution.

924
00:45:07.410 --> 00:45:08.271
Yeah,

925
00:45:08.291 --> 00:45:09.011
humans in the natural.

926
00:45:09.432 --> 00:45:10.553
Yeah,

927
00:45:10.554 --> 00:45:10.713
yeah.

928
00:45:13.290 --> 00:45:21.617
Do you have any strategies or advice for regenerative farmers in terms of improving biodiversity on their farm?

929
00:45:22.878 --> 00:45:22.998
Yeah,

930
00:45:23.098 --> 00:45:23.218
no,

931
00:45:23.238 --> 00:45:24.339
I think first of all,

932
00:45:24.379 --> 00:45:27.602
like if you're a farmer and if you're like looking into this,

933
00:45:28.863 --> 00:45:29.884
it's first step,

934
00:45:30.144 --> 00:45:35.549
you already took it by like listening to this podcast and like thinking about implementing regenerative farming.

935
00:45:35.709 --> 00:45:37.570
Or if you're already actually doing it,

936
00:45:37.710 --> 00:45:39.672
then kudos to you because that's already like really,

937
00:45:39.712 --> 00:45:40.292
really important.

938
00:45:40.293 --> 00:45:41.834
Because that at least means that.

939
00:45:42.622 --> 00:45:57.686
you slowly slowly start to change your practices and to avoid the a lot of the damage that is usually done the big one is obviously like habitat loss in agriculture so when it comes to you can be a very regenerative farmer um

940
00:45:58.286 --> 00:46:11.690
but it's also a bit about like how much habitat is still left and how much did let's say your ordinary farm pushed out of this and so one of the things that i would say at first is to look of like okay can you create certain pockets

941
00:46:12.302 --> 00:46:13.663
where nature can return,

942
00:46:14.043 --> 00:46:16.004
where you don't necessarily grow food on.

943
00:46:16.104 --> 00:46:16.924
Because that is like,

944
00:46:18.205 --> 00:46:21.046
there's a lot of different drivers that drive biodiversity loss,

945
00:46:21.266 --> 00:46:22.746
but space missing,

946
00:46:22.947 --> 00:46:24.247
just like space is like,

947
00:46:24.427 --> 00:46:24.967
is an issue.

948
00:46:25.107 --> 00:46:29.909
Because like you have like animals and plants of all different sizes and they need space.

949
00:46:29.969 --> 00:46:30.610
We need space.

950
00:46:30.850 --> 00:46:31.750
We need living space.

951
00:46:31.810 --> 00:46:37.193
And so as one first thing that is a bit like easier to just like think about is like,

952
00:46:37.233 --> 00:46:37.453
okay,

953
00:46:37.913 --> 00:46:40.494
are there some certain pockets of your farm?

954
00:46:40.934 --> 00:46:58.339
where you can consider there's a forest maybe anyways there can you maybe make some additional space around this so that nature can return and just like help it a little bit so i would say space is like one of the first one because it is really one of the most impactful actions that farmers can take yeah um

955
00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:01.740
there's a there's a common belief that if you take

956
00:47:02.268 --> 00:47:03.889
productive land out of production.

957
00:47:04.029 --> 00:47:07.692
Here you mentioned very specifically land that is not used for food production.

958
00:47:08.192 --> 00:47:09.013
But even if you did,

959
00:47:09.533 --> 00:47:21.321
there's this common belief that if you take a part of your land out of production for rewilding or for like a pond or for trees or for biodiversity strips and things like that,

960
00:47:21.941 --> 00:47:25.003
that then you're producing less and therefore you're earning less money.

961
00:47:25.163 --> 00:47:25.344
But

962
00:47:26.004 --> 00:47:29.106
I find more and more evidence in my travels,

963
00:47:29.107 --> 00:47:30.707
in my conversations,

964
00:47:30.747 --> 00:47:31.388
that actually...

965
00:47:32.088 --> 00:47:37.353
you can actually gain a lot more than you lose by having to rely less heavily on irrigation,

966
00:47:37.793 --> 00:47:38.594
on chemicals,

967
00:47:38.694 --> 00:47:39.555
on fertilizer,

968
00:47:40.256 --> 00:47:41.477
on a lot of other things.

969
00:47:41.757 --> 00:47:43.979
So you might have a little bit less productive land,

970
00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:47.882
but the land that you have is more efficient as a system.

971
00:47:48.563 --> 00:47:48.703
Yeah,

972
00:47:48.763 --> 00:47:49.124
not fully.

973
00:47:49.244 --> 00:47:49.484
I mean,

974
00:47:49.524 --> 00:47:50.385
it's like sometimes,

975
00:47:50.505 --> 00:47:51.906
especially as somebody,

976
00:47:51.966 --> 00:47:52.246
let's say,

977
00:47:52.247 --> 00:47:55.830
if you've been only doing conventional farming for a long time,

978
00:47:56.270 --> 00:47:57.671
it sounds a bit like counterintuitive,

979
00:47:57.792 --> 00:47:57.972
maybe.

980
00:47:58.396 --> 00:48:00.678
But that's exactly the case about regenerative farming.

981
00:48:01.058 --> 00:48:04.081
If you do it really right and if you listen to the best practices,

982
00:48:04.141 --> 00:48:05.202
if you learn from your peers,

983
00:48:05.843 --> 00:48:07.024
the productivity is higher.

984
00:48:07.124 --> 00:48:13.349
So that's one of the really exciting things that gets me really excited about this movement is that we will be able,

985
00:48:13.350 --> 00:48:14.050
if we do it right,

986
00:48:14.150 --> 00:48:15.812
to produce on less land.

987
00:48:16.052 --> 00:48:24.519
And that makes all the difference because we need to restore some of the habitats that we have lost and we need to bring some animals back.

988
00:48:25.960 --> 00:48:28.402
We're talking about wolves and especially the bigger animals,

989
00:48:28.442 --> 00:48:29.883
they just need a bit more space.

990
00:48:29.943 --> 00:48:33.485
And so if you can't do that on a tiny five by five square meters,

991
00:48:33.926 --> 00:48:34.126
yes,

992
00:48:34.706 --> 00:48:35.347
better than nothing,

993
00:48:35.607 --> 00:48:35.947
awesome.

994
00:48:36.888 --> 00:48:40.510
But you're not going to rewild a wolf on five by five square meter land,

995
00:48:40.530 --> 00:48:40.790
you know?

996
00:48:40.890 --> 00:48:41.711
Okay,

997
00:48:41.891 --> 00:48:42.151
yeah,

998
00:48:42.291 --> 00:48:42.431
yeah.

999
00:48:43.652 --> 00:48:45.814
I'm hearing here the dilemma,

1000
00:48:45.994 --> 00:48:47.155
sort of the debate between,

1001
00:48:47.775 --> 00:48:48.095
what is it,

1002
00:48:48.155 --> 00:48:49.856
land sharing and land sparing,

1003
00:48:50.637 --> 00:48:50.837
right?

1004
00:48:50.877 --> 00:48:54.760
Where some people argue that we should be super intensive to leave more space for...

1005
00:48:55.120 --> 00:49:12.390
rewilding and for nature and some say we should be more extensive and include nature into our food systems what do you think a bit of both i guess yeah yeah yeah i think uh probably like a bit of both like i was definitely starting out with like thinking like ah no we just need to we

1006
00:49:12.410 --> 00:49:23.336
need to have nature on one side and then cities and like agriculture on one side and so forth and the more i the more i kind of like learn about this and the more conversations i have i think it's actually really really important that

1007
00:49:23.956 --> 00:49:39.563
throughout our life at every different touch points and no ever kind of different business activities we have there should be nature somehow represented and so now i'm actually a big fan of like yes we should definitely make sure that the biggest vast areas of land

1008
00:49:39.604 --> 00:49:48.968
that we still have and should be protected so really where there's still wilderness if you can call it like that we should definitely do our uttermost

1009
00:49:49.248 --> 00:49:49.988
to protect it,

1010
00:49:50.129 --> 00:49:51.529
to maybe increase it a bit,

1011
00:49:51.589 --> 00:49:52.870
like to increase the buffer zone,

1012
00:49:52.910 --> 00:49:53.931
restore it and so forth.

1013
00:49:55.111 --> 00:49:56.312
And then at the same time,

1014
00:49:56.352 --> 00:50:00.234
we should definitely look into like all of our different activities that we do,

1015
00:50:00.334 --> 00:50:01.735
no matter if we're having a garden,

1016
00:50:01.755 --> 00:50:04.216
no matter if we're having lands that we use for agriculture,

1017
00:50:04.217 --> 00:50:05.857
no matter if we have a business in the city,

1018
00:50:06.538 --> 00:50:10.039
we all have some agencies that we can create this like nature pockets.

1019
00:50:10.660 --> 00:50:13.882
And by creating these nature pockets and by hopefully combining them,

1020
00:50:14.382 --> 00:50:17.263
we can really create like abundance of life again.

1021
00:50:17.464 --> 00:50:17.764
And so-

1022
00:50:19.372 --> 00:50:19.492
Yeah,

1023
00:50:19.512 --> 00:50:22.373
I think that's maybe a bit my answer about this.

1024
00:50:22.374 --> 00:50:24.074
Because we definitely need,

1025
00:50:24.734 --> 00:50:25.894
for the bigger animals,

1026
00:50:25.934 --> 00:50:28.875
we definitely need some bigger spaces that are connected.

1027
00:50:29.015 --> 00:50:34.396
So if you're working in the context of Africa or Asia and you have an Asian elephant,

1028
00:50:34.776 --> 00:50:38.277
it's just like that one elephant needs some space.

1029
00:50:38.278 --> 00:50:42.358
And so that elephant needs to have some passages where it can walk and so forth.

1030
00:50:43.999 --> 00:50:45.339
And in Europe,

1031
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:47.580
we have some big animals too.

1032
00:50:47.600 --> 00:50:48.040
We have like...

1033
00:50:48.632 --> 00:50:49.433
European bison,

1034
00:50:49.473 --> 00:50:50.193
we have bears,

1035
00:50:50.213 --> 00:50:51.234
we have wolves and so forth.

1036
00:50:51.294 --> 00:50:52.995
So they need some certain passages.

1037
00:50:53.355 --> 00:50:54.216
But that's the cool thing,

1038
00:50:54.256 --> 00:50:54.536
I think,

1039
00:50:54.616 --> 00:50:54.936
as well,

1040
00:50:55.537 --> 00:50:59.360
where farming can come in is because it's quite often privately owned.

1041
00:51:00.520 --> 00:51:13.249
We can just decide that we just work together as farmers together to maybe create these pockets in such a way that they actually become like a connected system rather than tiny little islands that even if every regenerative farmer,

1042
00:51:13.269 --> 00:51:13.629
let's say,

1043
00:51:14.370 --> 00:51:16.391
is just doing it for themselves,

1044
00:51:16.411 --> 00:51:17.292
that's better than nothing.

1045
00:51:17.512 --> 00:51:18.832
but if it's not connected,

1046
00:51:18.872 --> 00:51:20.133
if the pieces are not connected,

1047
00:51:20.573 --> 00:51:26.094
then it's not going to have the same positive impact as if we collaborate collectively to see,

1048
00:51:26.435 --> 00:51:26.595
hey,

1049
00:51:26.615 --> 00:51:27.115
do you know what?

1050
00:51:27.635 --> 00:51:30.656
Why don't you have a piece there that we can connect?

1051
00:51:30.716 --> 00:51:33.176
And let me restore rewild a bit here.

1052
00:51:33.837 --> 00:51:38.638
And that's going to increase the impact like much more than if we would do it all by ourself.

1053
00:51:39.478 --> 00:51:39.698
Okay.

1054
00:51:40.539 --> 00:51:42.679
You mentioned the wolves a couple of times already.

1055
00:51:43.739 --> 00:51:45.540
And here in the context of sharing

1056
00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:46.620
Look,

1057
00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:49.161
agriculture with wildlife.

1058
00:51:50.242 --> 00:51:52.563
We hear a lot about wolves coming back to Europe.

1059
00:51:52.903 --> 00:51:54.724
Some people are saying it's amazing.

1060
00:51:54.744 --> 00:51:56.144
It's great for ecosystems.

1061
00:51:56.304 --> 00:51:59.586
Their value to restoration is huge.

1062
00:52:00.226 --> 00:52:04.688
And obviously some other people are quite against it because for safety reasons,

1063
00:52:04.748 --> 00:52:09.130
maybe some farmers will argue that this is dangerous for their livestock.

1064
00:52:09.450 --> 00:52:09.670
I mean,

1065
00:52:10.011 --> 00:52:10.791
where do you stand on that?

1066
00:52:10.831 --> 00:52:12.132
What is the full story here?

1067
00:52:13.592 --> 00:52:17.193
I think my stance is quite clear already if the person made it until here.

1068
00:52:17.873 --> 00:52:19.574
But first I want to say for the farmers,

1069
00:52:19.614 --> 00:52:20.614
I can totally understand.

1070
00:52:20.634 --> 00:52:21.554
I can totally hear you.

1071
00:52:22.134 --> 00:52:23.375
If you're,

1072
00:52:23.755 --> 00:52:24.355
for example,

1073
00:52:24.775 --> 00:52:25.355
working with sheep,

1074
00:52:27.836 --> 00:52:28.636
there's definitely risks,

1075
00:52:28.676 --> 00:52:29.536
there will be tensions.

1076
00:52:31.377 --> 00:52:32.277
And so first of all,

1077
00:52:32.577 --> 00:52:34.958
I hear you and I can totally understand your fear.

1078
00:52:35.398 --> 00:52:38.059
We were talking earlier about shifting baseline syndrome.

1079
00:52:38.139 --> 00:52:40.880
So the farmer that necessarily has these fears,

1080
00:52:41.020 --> 00:52:42.400
it's quite normal because...

1081
00:52:43.152 --> 00:52:44.133
For the past

1082
00:52:44.853 --> 00:52:46.254
50, 100 years,

1083
00:52:46.274 --> 00:52:51.656
we did a really terrific job of eradicating all sorts of larger carnivores,

1084
00:52:51.896 --> 00:52:52.477
like lynx,

1085
00:52:53.077 --> 00:52:53.377
wolf,

1086
00:52:53.817 --> 00:52:54.197
bears.

1087
00:52:55.178 --> 00:52:57.239
There used to be an abundance in Europe as well,

1088
00:52:57.379 --> 00:53:00.420
but we did a really awful job in protecting them.

1089
00:53:00.981 --> 00:53:03.922
And so there's a generation and sometimes two generations,

1090
00:53:03.982 --> 00:53:07.804
sometimes three generations where the animal was just not there.

1091
00:53:08.024 --> 00:53:09.425
So they didn't grow up with this.

1092
00:53:09.505 --> 00:53:11.988
And even in their sometimes now heritage,

1093
00:53:12.168 --> 00:53:13.489
it didn't used to be there.

1094
00:53:13.569 --> 00:53:14.129
So there's no,

1095
00:53:15.911 --> 00:53:20.055
they would feel like this is actually something new or like this is a bit like an intruder,

1096
00:53:20.575 --> 00:53:23.438
which is not like it's been there before.

1097
00:53:24.138 --> 00:53:26.000
We are a bit sort of the intruders.

1098
00:53:26.001 --> 00:53:30.203
And so we need to be understanding that these fears are normal and we need to listen.

1099
00:53:30.584 --> 00:53:34.247
And we need to understand what is your reality and what are you really afraid about?

1100
00:53:34.867 --> 00:53:35.168
And.

1101
00:53:36.220 --> 00:53:38.461
When it comes to them putting this all in perspective,

1102
00:53:38.501 --> 00:53:38.882
it's like,

1103
00:53:40.082 --> 00:53:40.643
overall,

1104
00:53:40.783 --> 00:53:46.246
the wolf has much more advantages to bring them back than disadvantages.

1105
00:53:46.426 --> 00:53:47.086
For the farmers,

1106
00:53:47.126 --> 00:53:47.467
however,

1107
00:53:47.947 --> 00:53:50.148
because they are first in line when it comes to this,

1108
00:53:50.528 --> 00:53:53.450
is we need to find systems so that their impact can be,

1109
00:53:53.830 --> 00:53:56.652
the negative impact can be as minimized as possible.

1110
00:53:56.772 --> 00:53:59.153
So how can we teach farmers of like,

1111
00:53:59.193 --> 00:54:03.196
what are some prevention methods so that wolf attacks don't even become an issue?

1112
00:54:03.536 --> 00:54:08.299
there's really classical things like dogs and different fence systems and so forth.

1113
00:54:08.339 --> 00:54:10.500
And a lot of it is also supported by,

1114
00:54:11.121 --> 00:54:11.781
at least in the EU,

1115
00:54:12.542 --> 00:54:15.544
they have sometimes some schemes that farmers can tap into.

1116
00:54:16.024 --> 00:54:17.845
And so there's definitely some support out there.

1117
00:54:18.305 --> 00:54:21.047
And as always with everything in the news,

1118
00:54:21.447 --> 00:54:27.251
the wolf is also such a classical fairy tale character that is a bit demonized.

1119
00:54:27.331 --> 00:54:28.852
And so just from

1120
00:54:29.052 --> 00:54:48.746
we are working a bit against culture because we learned for a long time in our upbringing that it's scary and that it's going to kill you and that it's going to you know damage you and so we're also working a bit against that and so we need to be careful when these kind of stories come either about like one farmer that was really angry or like the media blowing things up even

1121
00:54:48.806 --> 00:54:56.532
though that's a lot of attacks on sheep if you look at really the statistics at least the ones that i found quite often you can even like

1122
00:54:56.936 --> 00:55:01.958
see that most of the attacks are most likely happened by dogs rather than wolves because the attacking

1123
00:55:02.599 --> 00:55:06.620
Like how they attack is different then and so yeah,

1124
00:55:06.720 --> 00:55:09.261
it's like it's it easily becomes an emotional topic

1125
00:55:09.682 --> 00:55:18.045
But we should see it from all kind of different perspectives in order to have like if just in a tough conversation about this But together rather than talking about one another.

1126
00:55:18.786 --> 00:55:19.006
Okay,

1127
00:55:19.546 --> 00:55:24.208
and we just focused on the potential downside of having wolves

1128
00:55:24.608 --> 00:55:25.828
back into our ecosystems.

1129
00:55:25.868 --> 00:55:28.149
But maybe we could look at the other side of that story,

1130
00:55:28.189 --> 00:55:29.089
the positive side,

1131
00:55:29.429 --> 00:55:34.231
and you could tell us how wolves actually benefit our ecosystems.

1132
00:55:34.571 --> 00:55:34.771
Yeah,

1133
00:55:35.371 --> 00:55:35.491
yeah,

1134
00:55:35.551 --> 00:55:35.891
exactly.

1135
00:55:35.971 --> 00:55:37.632
So like when it comes to farming,

1136
00:55:37.652 --> 00:55:37.952
it's like,

1137
00:55:38.512 --> 00:55:38.752
you know,

1138
00:55:38.753 --> 00:55:41.053
when you when you when you are in the agriculture space,

1139
00:55:41.054 --> 00:55:41.493
it's like you,

1140
00:55:41.713 --> 00:55:43.773
you shape nature to a certain extent.

1141
00:55:43.853 --> 00:55:52.336
And so usually what we humans got like quite good at and what we want is some sort of strong influence on it because we don't want necessarily variables that we are not really

1142
00:55:53.112 --> 00:55:55.633
like because that has an impact on our production.

1143
00:55:56.273 --> 00:55:57.133
And so now,

1144
00:55:57.233 --> 00:55:57.653
of course,

1145
00:55:58.413 --> 00:56:04.655
there's where the wolf has obviously a bit of contra arguments because the wolf brings a bit of chaos.

1146
00:56:04.695 --> 00:56:09.977
That's literally their job is to bring disturbance because that's their job in the natural ecosystems.

1147
00:56:09.997 --> 00:56:16.078
And so why they are so powerful is they bring this disturbance into an ecosystem that was not necessarily there,

1148
00:56:16.138 --> 00:56:22.040
where before you had maybe deer overeating on all kinds of little plants and so forth.

1149
00:56:22.260 --> 00:56:26.148
they actually become like skittish because now they need to actually look around left and right

1150
00:56:27.074 --> 00:56:45.587
is there maybe a wolf nearby and so forth and so they become much more intense and so also that stress creates like a natural already just that stress is going to reduce also like like how many like deers they're going to be and they're going to keep the population in check and because they keep the population check of especially the deer now

1151
00:56:45.667 --> 00:56:56.294
the deer is not eating as many of those younger trees the trees can grow bigger now the beavers are coming in that we talked a bit earlier so that happened literally that happened in yellowstone national parks it's really

1152
00:56:56.674 --> 00:57:01.558
We've seen what happens in Yellowstone National Park if you reintroduce wolves.

1153
00:57:01.638 --> 00:57:06.723
Because the park was still alive and a lot of people would say,

1154
00:57:07.343 --> 00:57:08.885
you would take them in there and they would say,

1155
00:57:08.945 --> 00:57:09.285
oh no,

1156
00:57:09.305 --> 00:57:09.745
it's nature.

1157
00:57:10.186 --> 00:57:12.788
But there was basically a lot of deer there.

1158
00:57:13.088 --> 00:57:13.449
A lot of,

1159
00:57:13.729 --> 00:57:15.090
I think they call it in America,

1160
00:57:15.110 --> 00:57:17.192
I think they always call it elk.

1161
00:57:17.652 --> 00:57:18.433
I think they call it elk,

1162
00:57:18.473 --> 00:57:19.113
this really big,

1163
00:57:19.354 --> 00:57:19.554
really...

1164
00:57:19.982 --> 00:57:39.570
big deer and so but they destroyed like the park slowly and slowly and slowly just because they were like just like damaging everything because there was no disturbance there there was no hunter there so they reintroduced the wolves and what happened is now the deer were skittish they moved to different parts of the park they didn't just like stay in like areas they

1165
00:57:39.610 --> 00:57:48.234
moved all around and by doing so by changing the movement of the deers and so forth now the trees were able to grow bigger now the beaver came back

1166
00:57:48.878 --> 00:58:06.588
because they finally had like the right trees to to munch and the beaver started to munch on those tree changed the entire ecosystem there because now they created this wetlands and so forth and so all started with the wolf that just like brought disturbance that was not there anymore and we see this in a lot of europe

1167
00:58:06.608 --> 00:58:17.414
from belgium i'm from germany we have hunters that do the job of the wolf bits because they need to shoot now the deer the wild boar just because the population numbers are not

1168
00:58:18.334 --> 00:58:20.596
healthy for the ecosystem that they're in.

1169
00:58:20.636 --> 00:58:25.921
They're basically an overpopulation because we decimated all the carnivores.

1170
00:58:26.321 --> 00:58:27.983
And as soon as we bring in the carnivores,

1171
00:58:28.323 --> 00:58:29.024
they do their job,

1172
00:58:29.704 --> 00:58:31.406
and it's all become much more balanced.

1173
00:58:31.407 --> 00:58:36.170
And we wouldn't need that many hunters because now nature is self-regulating.

1174
00:58:37.151 --> 00:58:37.291
Yeah,

1175
00:58:37.491 --> 00:58:37.611
yeah,

1176
00:58:37.612 --> 00:58:37.731
yeah.

1177
00:58:38.412 --> 00:58:38.592
Okay,

1178
00:58:38.612 --> 00:58:39.913
so we can say in a way that's...

1179
00:58:41.082 --> 00:58:42.502
Having wolves in our ecosystems,

1180
00:58:42.582 --> 00:58:43.723
there's a downside to it.

1181
00:58:43.783 --> 00:58:44.323
For farmers,

1182
00:58:44.324 --> 00:58:47.204
they might get some loss for their livestock.

1183
00:58:47.244 --> 00:58:49.464
They might have to invest in some protection systems.

1184
00:58:49.885 --> 00:58:50.845
So there's a cost to that.

1185
00:58:51.545 --> 00:58:54.066
But there's also a cost to reforestation,

1186
00:58:54.246 --> 00:58:55.866
to ecosystem protection,

1187
00:58:56.026 --> 00:58:56.166
to,

1188
00:58:56.987 --> 00:58:57.387
like you said,

1189
00:58:57.547 --> 00:58:59.027
controlling the population of deers,

1190
00:58:59.028 --> 00:58:59.467
for example.

1191
00:58:59.527 --> 00:59:01.488
All of that also has a cost.

1192
00:59:02.088 --> 00:59:09.350
And so what I seem to hear is that the benefits of having them in the ecosystem far outweighs the...

1193
00:59:10.182 --> 00:59:11.243
the damage that they're doing.

1194
00:59:11.303 --> 00:59:19.106
And so maybe we should be able to compensate farmers or subsidize them to deal with the situation rather than go in the direction of saying,

1195
00:59:19.446 --> 00:59:21.407
let's kill the wolves and let's get rid of them.

1196
00:59:22.187 --> 00:59:24.228
And I think this is super,

1197
00:59:24.268 --> 00:59:24.488
super,

1198
00:59:24.548 --> 00:59:25.188
super crucial.

1199
00:59:27.249 --> 00:59:28.570
When it really comes down to this,

1200
00:59:29.050 --> 00:59:30.411
what are farmers really interested in?

1201
00:59:30.412 --> 00:59:34.932
If it's really about the individual sheeps because they're really deeply connected to those sheeps,

1202
00:59:35.633 --> 00:59:38.434
then we need to find systems for that.

1203
00:59:39.362 --> 00:59:44.986
A lot of farmers are also concerned about the bottom line.

1204
00:59:45.266 --> 00:59:45.626
In the end,

1205
00:59:46.187 --> 00:59:48.608
it's a really tough time right now to be a farmer because in the end,

1206
00:59:49.009 --> 00:59:50.730
there's all these costs that are mounting up.

1207
00:59:51.190 --> 00:59:52.251
Like quite often,

1208
00:59:52.291 --> 00:59:58.235
like the systems as well with those supermarkets and so forth are not really benefiting actually the people that grow the food and so forth.

1209
00:59:58.255 --> 01:00:00.036
And so totally understandable.

1210
01:00:00.037 --> 01:00:02.678
And when it comes to these like financial pressures,

1211
01:00:02.738 --> 01:00:05.400
because now there was a wolf coming in and now they killed like two,

1212
01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:05.700
three,

1213
01:00:05.820 --> 01:00:06.040
four,

1214
01:00:06.421 --> 01:00:07.221
15 of my sheep,

1215
01:00:07.842 --> 01:00:08.022
then...

1216
01:00:08.406 --> 01:00:27.734
they should be compensated and then still even if we start to compensate every farmer for the sheep that got killed it's still not going to be even like slightly to the balance of all the positive impacts that we can financially even like calculate of what wolves bring because now you can even argue okay now there's wolves a

1217
01:00:27.754 --> 01:00:36.578
lot of people like to see wolves and so now you have tourism in that area maybe and it's you know creates like new income streams for the community there's

1218
01:00:36.618 --> 01:00:55.506
people that maybe they want to come for photography tours there's like even from that perspective like they bring like much more money than it would cost us to to have them there and and yeah that's that that's just the money side of it and i'm totally i'm the first one that always says like yeah farmer should be compensated if there's like if

1219
01:00:55.507 --> 01:01:03.630
there's like an accident that happened then yeah and at the same time we also need to see like okay other ways how we can minimize those accidents and so quite often it's just like

1220
01:01:03.870 --> 01:01:16.258
yeah making the habitat bigger and making sure we restore the ecosystems so that in the end the wolf can yeah have more more space where they can really roam freely and if they have that then

1221
01:01:17.102 --> 01:01:20.825
They usually have the tendency to even stay away from humans because it's like,

1222
01:01:21.105 --> 01:01:21.705
we are noisy,

1223
01:01:22.346 --> 01:01:25.188
we are having a history of like shooting them and so forth.

1224
01:01:25.189 --> 01:01:27.169
So like a lot of animals by default,

1225
01:01:27.489 --> 01:01:28.570
they actually leave you alone.

1226
01:01:28.630 --> 01:01:30.231
They don't like come to seek you out.

1227
01:01:31.192 --> 01:01:32.593
It's like almost like no animal.

1228
01:01:32.773 --> 01:01:33.713
And then last one,

1229
01:01:33.974 --> 01:01:34.934
and then I'm going to shut up.

1230
01:01:35.555 --> 01:01:36.415
It's really important.

1231
01:01:36.876 --> 01:01:39.077
It's not a really powerful argument for a lot of people.

1232
01:01:39.257 --> 01:01:39.678
But for me,

1233
01:01:39.738 --> 01:01:40.378
it is really,

1234
01:01:40.438 --> 01:01:44.241
really important to mention that every species also has an intrinsic value.

1235
01:01:44.421 --> 01:01:44.541
So

1236
01:01:46.242 --> 01:01:48.483
Putting price tags on animal right now is,

1237
01:01:48.803 --> 01:01:49.163
I think,

1238
01:01:49.263 --> 01:01:50.423
one of the important way to go,

1239
01:01:50.603 --> 01:01:55.265
just that people can put it in our capitalistic world so that we can have other arguments,

1240
01:01:55.325 --> 01:01:56.805
so that we can just say like,

1241
01:01:56.845 --> 01:01:57.025
okay,

1242
01:01:57.425 --> 01:01:57.865
it's fluffy,

1243
01:01:58.025 --> 01:01:58.765
it's nice looking,

1244
01:01:58.866 --> 01:02:02.687
but also they create ecosystem services of

1245
01:02:03.047 --> 01:02:04.047
XXX amount of year.

1246
01:02:04.607 --> 01:02:05.387
And that is really good.

1247
01:02:06.148 --> 01:02:06.928
And at the same time,

1248
01:02:06.948 --> 01:02:10.509
we also need to always remember that every species has an intrinsic value.

1249
01:02:11.009 --> 01:02:12.249
Who are we to say like,

1250
01:02:12.289 --> 01:02:14.790
you have the right to exist or you don't have the right to exist?

1251
01:02:15.110 --> 01:02:19.312
of specially animals and species that have been on this planet long before us.

1252
01:02:20.953 --> 01:02:21.073
Yeah.

1253
01:02:22.874 --> 01:02:24.075
You also mentioned the lynx,

1254
01:02:24.575 --> 01:02:24.855
right?

1255
01:02:24.975 --> 01:02:30.879
And I remember reading a sort of positive story about reintroducing lynx in Spain,

1256
01:02:30.899 --> 01:02:31.559
in northern Spain,

1257
01:02:31.579 --> 01:02:31.899
I think.

1258
01:02:32.099 --> 01:02:33.100
So not too far from here.

1259
01:02:34.120 --> 01:02:34.861
Do you know that story?

1260
01:02:35.401 --> 01:02:36.482
Can you tell us something about that?

1261
01:02:37.414 --> 01:02:37.534
No,

1262
01:02:37.714 --> 01:02:44.019
actually a friend of mine who was just like last week there who was trying to find the lynx and didn't find some.

1263
01:02:45.199 --> 01:02:45.960
But in general,

1264
01:02:46.760 --> 01:02:48.241
I can't say so much about this.

1265
01:02:48.562 --> 01:02:51.724
But what I can say is like lynx is like a smaller predator.

1266
01:02:51.744 --> 01:02:53.465
So for everybody that has never seen a lynx.

1267
01:02:53.505 --> 01:02:55.326
So if you just try to imagine a wolf,

1268
01:02:55.346 --> 01:02:58.909
a lot of people have roughly understanding of how big a wolf is or bear.

1269
01:02:59.969 --> 01:03:00.149
Lynx,

1270
01:03:00.230 --> 01:03:04.032
I would say is maybe half the size of a wolf.

1271
01:03:04.292 --> 01:03:06.354
Like really roughly saying maybe it's a bit like a...

1272
01:03:07.294 --> 01:03:08.214
A medium-sized dog.

1273
01:03:08.294 --> 01:03:09.135
Medium-sized dog,

1274
01:03:09.195 --> 01:03:09.315
yeah,

1275
01:03:09.375 --> 01:03:09.755
exactly.

1276
01:03:09.855 --> 01:03:12.215
And it's also a really important predator,

1277
01:03:12.255 --> 01:03:15.036
especially for like rabbits and like different,

1278
01:03:15.176 --> 01:03:16.297
like mice and so forth.

1279
01:03:16.337 --> 01:03:16.617
And so,

1280
01:03:18.457 --> 01:03:18.577
yeah,

1281
01:03:18.717 --> 01:03:20.418
all of these different species,

1282
01:03:20.438 --> 01:03:21.938
they have always like the role to play.

1283
01:03:21.958 --> 01:03:24.759
And so what we need to do is we took out,

1284
01:03:24.779 --> 01:03:26.499
if we have a look at the Jenga tower,

1285
01:03:26.539 --> 01:03:28.340
that's always an example that I like to take.

1286
01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:36.102
So Jenga is like this wooden block game and you build a tower out of it with all different tiny wooden blocks.

1287
01:03:36.826 --> 01:03:38.947
And you have to imagine biodiversity as this tower.

1288
01:03:39.407 --> 01:03:44.908
And what we've done in basically the past centuries and decades is we took more and more and more stones out of there.

1289
01:03:45.468 --> 01:03:48.029
And that becomes quite dangerous that the tower is going to fall.

1290
01:03:48.689 --> 01:03:51.210
And we have to remember we are part of that tower.

1291
01:03:51.310 --> 01:03:52.470
We have one stone in that tower.

1292
01:03:52.550 --> 01:03:55.191
So as soon as you pull one stone that is too much,

1293
01:03:55.811 --> 01:03:57.012
the entire tower will collapse.

1294
01:03:57.572 --> 01:04:00.012
And that's what we've been doing and that's where we play with fire.

1295
01:04:00.913 --> 01:04:05.354
And now what we need to do is there are still that sometimes the stone is not

1296
01:04:05.534 --> 01:04:06.755
exactly pulled out yet,

1297
01:04:07.355 --> 01:04:08.816
but it's like right on the edge.

1298
01:04:09.236 --> 01:04:13.699
And so what we need to do with rewilding and restoring is we push that stone slightly back in.

1299
01:04:13.799 --> 01:04:18.942
And that's what we're doing with like the wolf and with the lynx is like it's not falling yet completely.

1300
01:04:19.342 --> 01:04:20.583
The species still exist,

1301
01:04:21.043 --> 01:04:23.804
but it doesn't necessarily always exist where it used to exist.

1302
01:04:24.305 --> 01:04:33.670
And so we need to bring it back locally where it got extinct so they can do again the job to create this ecosystem because all of them have like a different job to play in it.

1303
01:04:34.906 --> 01:04:37.968
that's a very nice way to visualize it.

1304
01:04:40.030 --> 01:04:43.052
I have a tiny tiny favor to ask from you.

1305
01:04:43.752 --> 01:04:45.073
If you're enjoying this conversation,

1306
01:04:45.113 --> 01:04:46.974
and you would like to support my work,

1307
01:04:47.235 --> 01:04:47.995
and this podcast,

1308
01:04:47.996 --> 01:04:50.217
you can actually do that in just five seconds.

1309
01:04:50.937 --> 01:04:54.119
Whichever platform you're using right now to listen to this episode,

1310
01:04:54.500 --> 01:04:54.660
just

1311
01:04:54.800 --> 01:05:00.061
click on the deep seat page and then click on the subscribe or follow button.

1312
01:05:00.522 --> 01:05:02.582
It actually makes a huge difference for me,

1313
01:05:02.882 --> 01:05:10.945
for the growth of the podcast and for my ability to keep bringing high quality conversations with amazing guests to your ears every week.

1314
01:05:11.765 --> 01:05:14.806
Thank you so much in advance and let's get back to the conversation.

1315
01:05:17.158 --> 01:05:19.679
For the last part of this conversation,

1316
01:05:19.959 --> 01:05:25.560
I would love to leave the listeners in awe of nature by the end of the conversation.

1317
01:05:25.600 --> 01:05:31.522
And so I'd love for you to highlight some of your favorite nature stories,

1318
01:05:31.582 --> 01:05:33.163
like your favorite plants,

1319
01:05:33.223 --> 01:05:33.663
animals,

1320
01:05:33.723 --> 01:05:37.444
things that are weird and wonderful and that you love to talk about.

1321
01:05:38.984 --> 01:05:41.305
One of the first I would like to talk about is actually those fellas,

1322
01:05:41.385 --> 01:05:42.925
like those dogs,

1323
01:05:42.985 --> 01:05:44.966
because in the end they actually came from wolves.

1324
01:05:45.106 --> 01:05:45.366
And so

1325
01:05:45.886 --> 01:05:50.487
It's again like a really beautiful example of like how we treat even within the same animal family,

1326
01:05:50.547 --> 01:05:53.368
we treat animals entirely different because you know,

1327
01:05:53.608 --> 01:05:54.309
fellows like these,

1328
01:05:54.349 --> 01:06:01.311
they are sleeping on our couch and at the same time we even have to tiptoe a bit around the conversation about wolves and should we bring them back and so forth.

1329
01:06:01.591 --> 01:06:03.251
And at the same time those fellows there,

1330
01:06:03.671 --> 01:06:06.412
we have like an entire industry dedicated to our dogs.

1331
01:06:08.613 --> 01:06:11.734
And what I really like about dogs for example is that dogs

1332
01:06:11.934 --> 01:06:13.796
And apparently evolution-wise,

1333
01:06:13.856 --> 01:06:16.518
they learned how to show more of the white eye of the part,

1334
01:06:17.719 --> 01:06:18.680
the white eye that we,

1335
01:06:19.200 --> 01:06:20.922
the white part of the eye that we have here.

1336
01:06:22.143 --> 01:06:25.226
They learned how to use more of that so that they'd look huger,

1337
01:06:25.366 --> 01:06:27.187
more adorable so that we give them,

1338
01:06:27.308 --> 01:06:27.568
you know,

1339
01:06:28.008 --> 01:06:29.369
whatever they wanted from us.

1340
01:06:29.910 --> 01:06:31.431
So next time you're looking at your dog,

1341
01:06:31.471 --> 01:06:32.052
you'll have a look.

1342
01:06:32.112 --> 01:06:32.752
But yeah,

1343
01:06:32.832 --> 01:06:34.914
this is like often they learned how to trick us.

1344
01:06:34.954 --> 01:06:35.515
And it's just like,

1345
01:06:36.115 --> 01:06:38.457
it's just like these kind of things happening all around us.

1346
01:06:38.537 --> 01:06:38.698
And.

1347
01:06:39.979 --> 01:06:40.139
Yeah,

1348
01:06:40.200 --> 01:06:40.981
the natural world too,

1349
01:06:41.021 --> 01:06:41.362
okay,

1350
01:06:42.084 --> 01:06:44.730
I can really drift away from this.

1351
01:06:45.371 --> 01:06:47.897
What's really mind-blowing?

1352
01:06:51.652 --> 01:06:52.292
Another thing is,

1353
01:06:52.293 --> 01:06:52.793
for example,

1354
01:06:52.813 --> 01:07:00.957
that mycelium is like the fungi basically under the trees that we often now start to realize,

1355
01:07:00.997 --> 01:07:01.237
okay,

1356
01:07:01.538 --> 01:07:03.759
the tree and the plant is actually not alone.

1357
01:07:03.819 --> 01:07:04.499
It's not just like,

1358
01:07:05.340 --> 01:07:07.001
just not the root of the plant.

1359
01:07:07.002 --> 01:07:08.041
It's actually mycelium,

1360
01:07:08.061 --> 01:07:11.603
which is the fungi that goes in this and that there starts to communicate.

1361
01:07:11.604 --> 01:07:13.424
And we're only starting to understand this now,

1362
01:07:13.484 --> 01:07:18.667
like how intelligent and how plants communicate with one another and can plants feel.

1363
01:07:19.268 --> 01:07:19.948
And there's just like...

1364
01:07:20.592 --> 01:07:20.792
Yeah,

1365
01:07:21.613 --> 01:07:25.816
that's actually one that we've explored before on the podcast and that I absolutely love.

1366
01:07:26.896 --> 01:07:28.457
It's this symbiosis,

1367
01:07:28.477 --> 01:07:33.301
this collaboration between plants and the mycorrhizal fungi in the soil,

1368
01:07:33.961 --> 01:07:40.786
where the plant is capable of sending a clear signal to the mycorrhizal fungi to tell them which nutrients they need.

1369
01:07:40.866 --> 01:07:49.632
And then the fungi can go really far into the soil to find these specific nutrients and bring them back to the plant roots and exchange them for nutrients.

1370
01:07:50.036 --> 01:07:50.397
sugars.

1371
01:07:52.558 --> 01:07:57.862
So there's this kind of intelligent communication happening between the two which is just mind-blowing.

1372
01:07:58.622 --> 01:08:13.413
Yeah and it's just like it all happens under the soil and so like we often yeah you would just like walk in the forest and you would be blind to it but these magic things are happening all around us like the entire time and like we

1373
01:08:13.453 --> 01:08:16.715
don't necessarily always see things but yeah it doesn't mean that they're not there.

1374
01:08:18.336 --> 01:08:23.420
Another really great example is culture,

1375
01:08:23.460 --> 01:08:23.780
I think,

1376
01:08:23.820 --> 01:08:29.524
because we quite often we think like animals don't...

1377
01:08:30.685 --> 01:08:33.447
We separate us quite often from animals and we think like,

1378
01:08:33.487 --> 01:08:33.667
ah,

1379
01:08:33.727 --> 01:08:34.808
we're not an animal anymore,

1380
01:08:34.888 --> 01:08:36.129
we're something else.

1381
01:08:36.790 --> 01:08:37.530
We're not robots yet,

1382
01:08:37.550 --> 01:08:38.631
but we're also not animals.

1383
01:08:39.652 --> 01:08:41.853
And so in that way of thinking,

1384
01:08:41.873 --> 01:08:42.814
we often think of like,

1385
01:08:42.854 --> 01:08:42.974
nah,

1386
01:08:43.074 --> 01:08:44.615
animals are dumb and they don't have like,

1387
01:08:45.056 --> 01:08:45.296
you know...

1388
01:08:45.516 --> 01:09:02.108
they just do their thing they just like eat and they sleep and that's it but actually the more we learn about them we also realize they even have some sort of culture so there's now more research done that dolphins have like some sort of like names that they give to each other we see that uh

1389
01:09:02.128 --> 01:09:13.536
humpback whales have like different songs and they have like charts that are popular and so and they start to sing them in one area and then sooner or later they start to sing them in others and they're things like chimpanzees that

1390
01:09:14.288 --> 01:09:29.479
teach each other like how to use tools and so for the next generation they learn how to use those tools to eat termites and so forth so showing that there's some sort of like you know like teaching and some sort of like giving culture we know that killer

1391
01:09:29.519 --> 01:09:42.248
whales orcas they also like teach each other like different hunting techniques and if you would just like eradicate a certain part of this also you would lose that culture because basically

1392
01:09:42.832 --> 01:09:46.634
an individual was teaching the younger ones how to do certain things.

1393
01:09:46.814 --> 01:09:48.915
So we were talking about elephant seals at the beginning,

1394
01:09:49.295 --> 01:09:51.456
and there's like an orca family that,

1395
01:09:51.896 --> 01:09:53.317
and just like one matriarch,

1396
01:09:53.337 --> 01:09:53.937
so a female,

1397
01:09:54.317 --> 01:10:00.680
that taught the young ones how to basically hunt those elephant seals by...

1398
01:10:01.820 --> 01:10:04.882
At the right time of that tidal pool,

1399
01:10:05.322 --> 01:10:09.844
she can still go in without being like captured by the tides.

1400
01:10:10.564 --> 01:10:25.497
but so it's still deep enough but it's already a bit shallow so that she can actually reach those elephant seal cups and so you see here just like i think this i i think it's our ocean that shows it i think so our ocean or or yeah

1401
01:10:25.537 --> 01:10:38.768
i will i will figure it out i will send you the documentary but basically she figures out exactly at what time she can reach those elephant seals and the crucial time where she can also get out of it because if she would be stranded that's also a bit of a problem

1402
01:10:39.288 --> 01:10:42.029
And then she teaches the next generation how to do this.

1403
01:10:42.449 --> 01:10:45.031
And that's just like,

1404
01:10:45.351 --> 01:10:45.591
you know,

1405
01:10:45.651 --> 01:10:45.891
for me,

1406
01:10:45.951 --> 01:10:51.173
this is always like mesmerizing how much we underestimate our natural world when it comes to plants,

1407
01:10:51.193 --> 01:10:52.194
when it comes to fungi,

1408
01:10:52.234 --> 01:10:54.115
when it comes to whales,

1409
01:10:54.155 --> 01:10:55.175
when it comes to insects.

1410
01:10:55.275 --> 01:10:57.756
It's like bottom message here.

1411
01:10:58.077 --> 01:11:01.338
It's really do a bit search.

1412
01:11:01.358 --> 01:11:03.439
When you see something really interesting or something curious,

1413
01:11:03.879 --> 01:11:04.239
just like

1414
01:11:04.920 --> 01:11:05.320
Google.

1415
01:11:05.720 --> 01:11:21.773
like Wikipedia or like there's now also like apps where you can just make a picture or where you can just listen to a bird and it actually finds out what bird it is and these kind of apps this kind of technology can be really beneficial so that we can actually reconnect to that nature and can create

1416
01:11:21.813 --> 01:11:35.204
these moments of awe where we are just like what it doesn't what it does what like how does this work and so forth and we and I think that's yeah we need to come back to this because if we have this awe

1417
01:11:35.732 --> 01:11:45.591
if we have this like wow it's just incredible then we're also like much more likely to protect it restore it and rewild it and make space in our daily times make space in our

1418
01:11:46.928 --> 01:11:48.428
on our land and so forth.

1419
01:11:48.508 --> 01:11:50.969
But we don't have that if we don't appreciate it,

1420
01:11:50.970 --> 01:11:52.530
if we are not mesmerized by it.

1421
01:11:52.570 --> 01:11:52.810
Yeah,

1422
01:11:53.250 --> 01:11:56.191
that's a great message to probably close this conversation.

1423
01:11:57.311 --> 01:11:58.151
I just wanted to add that

1424
01:11:58.911 --> 01:12:02.952
I've been using for a few years this app called PlantNet and I'm obsessed with it.

1425
01:12:03.453 --> 01:12:04.393
You just take a photo,

1426
01:12:04.513 --> 01:12:07.194
scan it and it tells you automatically what plant it is.

1427
01:12:07.214 --> 01:12:08.594
And so when I'm walking down the street,

1428
01:12:09.134 --> 01:12:15.956
I take photos of tree barks or leaves or bushes or a little flower that comes through the cracks and things like that just to find out what it is.

1429
01:12:16.716 --> 01:12:17.317
And yeah,

1430
01:12:17.357 --> 01:12:18.299
it's quite fun to do.

1431
01:12:18.819 --> 01:12:19.100
So yeah,

1432
01:12:19.140 --> 01:12:22.945
I would definitely recommend that as a fun activity when you're outside on a walk.

1433
01:12:23.907 --> 01:12:27.472
We mentioned that it was a great idea to get out more often and to go for walks,

1434
01:12:27.492 --> 01:12:28.433
even five minutes a day.

1435
01:12:28.954 --> 01:12:32.659
If you couple that with actually doing that and trying to learn about the...

1436
01:12:33.240 --> 01:12:49.073
the different plants and different nature that is around you yeah and that makes it even more fun yeah it's can it can be your own personal safari you know like we're always talking about like i'm i did like the safari guide training and so i can i can take people now into african bush and

1437
01:12:49.153 --> 01:12:52.896
can actually guide them and show them like elephants lions and co and so

1438
01:12:55.009 --> 01:12:57.851
We always think of our nature as a separate thing of like,

1439
01:12:57.971 --> 01:13:00.913
I need to go on holidays to see something cool and so forth.

1440
01:13:00.933 --> 01:13:03.234
But there's tons of cool things around you too.

1441
01:13:03.875 --> 01:13:09.399
It's just like we forgot to listen or to look at it and to sometimes also make a bit space for this.

1442
01:13:09.400 --> 01:13:10.139
So by doing this,

1443
01:13:10.459 --> 01:13:11.120
exactly as you said,

1444
01:13:11.420 --> 01:13:13.782
sometimes go out and just make a picture.

1445
01:13:13.783 --> 01:13:15.683
And it doesn't mean that for the entire nature walk,

1446
01:13:15.684 --> 01:13:18.985
you need to go around with your smartphone because then it's counterintuitive.

1447
01:13:19.366 --> 01:13:21.547
But just like when you're out sometimes,

1448
01:13:21.548 --> 01:13:21.747
you know,

1449
01:13:21.807 --> 01:13:21.967
like,

1450
01:13:22.027 --> 01:13:22.207
okay,

1451
01:13:22.448 --> 01:13:22.888
this is this.

1452
01:13:23.048 --> 01:13:23.969
bird I'd never heard.

1453
01:13:24.249 --> 01:13:25.350
And then you just like open the,

1454
01:13:26.090 --> 01:13:26.330
you know,

1455
01:13:26.410 --> 01:13:29.553
Cornell labs and they will figure out like what bird that is.

1456
01:13:29.613 --> 01:13:30.674
And then next time,

1457
01:13:30.675 --> 01:13:30.934
you know,

1458
01:13:31.354 --> 01:13:32.535
so next time you hear that bird,

1459
01:13:32.555 --> 01:13:33.676
you can be much more appreciated.

1460
01:13:33.796 --> 01:13:33.916
Ah,

1461
01:13:33.976 --> 01:13:34.496
that's cool.

1462
01:13:34.756 --> 01:13:37.959
It's nice that the bird is actually coming back because you will realize,

1463
01:13:38.079 --> 01:13:38.199
ah,

1464
01:13:38.299 --> 01:13:39.460
birds are actually migratory,

1465
01:13:39.820 --> 01:13:40.260
some of them.

1466
01:13:40.701 --> 01:13:43.383
And so sometimes you hear different birds than other times.

1467
01:13:43.483 --> 01:13:47.766
And all of these connections can happen locally without you traveling,

1468
01:13:47.866 --> 01:13:50.408
without you having to pay 5,000 euros to go to Costa Rica.

1469
01:13:50.928 --> 01:13:52.650
All of this can happen right here.

1470
01:13:52.670 --> 01:13:53.250
It's just like,

1471
01:13:53.370 --> 01:14:01.517
it depends a lot about how open your mind is and what you consider worthy of like amazing because these kinds of amazements,

1472
01:14:01.717 --> 01:14:02.998
they're happening really,

1473
01:14:03.038 --> 01:14:03.979
really close to your home,

1474
01:14:04.480 --> 01:14:05.721
not just in Africa,

1475
01:14:05.881 --> 01:14:06.922
not just in the Amazon.

1476
01:14:07.402 --> 01:14:08.083
We have really,

1477
01:14:08.223 --> 01:14:09.484
really cool things happening here.

1478
01:14:10.525 --> 01:14:10.945
Amazing.

1479
01:14:11.405 --> 01:14:12.526
Maybe before we finish,

1480
01:14:12.527 --> 01:14:13.347
you could give us your,

1481
01:14:13.487 --> 01:14:13.727
you know,

1482
01:14:13.728 --> 01:14:17.891
your key actions that individuals can take to improve biodiversity.

1483
01:14:18.411 --> 01:14:18.572
Yeah.

1484
01:14:19.208 --> 01:14:22.811
Now it's really really important because a lot of my work is around like agency.

1485
01:14:23.151 --> 01:14:25.433
So we all have agency in this.

1486
01:14:25.733 --> 01:14:31.999
That's the really beauty about biodiversity is like when it comes to climates you do something and you don't necessarily see it.

1487
01:14:32.679 --> 01:14:42.768
So when you take the bike instead of the car and so forth you know there will be less co2 and so it's hard to really grasp that.

1488
01:14:42.928 --> 01:14:47.351
When it comes to biodiversity in nature the beauty is that you can see it.

1489
01:14:47.531 --> 01:14:48.072
You will see it

1490
01:14:48.396 --> 01:14:50.598
Sometimes in your environment,

1491
01:14:50.958 --> 01:14:52.960
you will see that there's more forest now,

1492
01:14:53.060 --> 01:14:54.902
or we managed to save that forest,

1493
01:14:54.962 --> 01:14:57.384
or we managed to rewild our balcony,

1494
01:14:57.544 --> 01:15:00.607
and you see some birds returning or some insects returning.

1495
01:15:01.047 --> 01:15:01.888
And that's really beautiful.

1496
01:15:01.889 --> 01:15:02.689
We can really see it.

1497
01:15:02.769 --> 01:15:05.231
And sometimes it happens not necessarily where you are,

1498
01:15:05.271 --> 01:15:06.152
but it's tangible.

1499
01:15:07.152 --> 01:15:07.873
It's like living.

1500
01:15:08.333 --> 01:15:08.974
You can see it.

1501
01:15:09.575 --> 01:15:11.656
And so that's what I really love about biodiversity.

1502
01:15:11.676 --> 01:15:15.600
And so what we can do all within ourselves is like...

1503
01:15:16.060 --> 01:15:16.560
Number one,

1504
01:15:16.620 --> 01:15:17.941
when it comes to biodiversity,

1505
01:15:19.182 --> 01:15:19.782
is food.

1506
01:15:20.222 --> 01:15:21.903
Like how you grow food,

1507
01:15:22.764 --> 01:15:24.025
what kind of food you consume.

1508
01:15:26.346 --> 01:15:26.886
These are really,

1509
01:15:26.946 --> 01:15:27.126
really,

1510
01:15:27.207 --> 01:15:28.968
really key pillars.

1511
01:15:29.848 --> 01:15:31.409
When we take a look at climate change,

1512
01:15:31.569 --> 01:15:34.971
we need to change how we produce energy and how we consume energy.

1513
01:15:35.491 --> 01:15:37.212
When it comes to the nature world,

1514
01:15:37.793 --> 01:15:43.116
we need to figure out how to grow food in the least destructive way possible.

1515
01:15:43.632 --> 01:16:03.444
and we also have to consume food that is better for our health and plus better for the planet so that means you have to start switching more to veggie protein and making veggie protein more part of your daily intake because we can't all consume to the same extent that we currently consume meat and

1516
01:16:04.885 --> 01:16:09.748
because that would just like lead to less and less appetite so it's just not it's just not doable and so

1517
01:16:10.804 --> 01:16:11.645
Food is really,

1518
01:16:11.685 --> 01:16:16.109
really battleground that we need to get our grip on without tackling food.

1519
01:16:16.330 --> 01:16:19.813
It will be almost impossible to tackle the biodiversity crisis.

1520
01:16:19.933 --> 01:16:24.938
And then food waste within food is also important because it's like one third of all food actually never,

1521
01:16:25.619 --> 01:16:25.859
you know,

1522
01:16:26.279 --> 01:16:27.360
is never even used.

1523
01:16:27.401 --> 01:16:30.323
And so that's already like a very low hanging fruit,

1524
01:16:30.363 --> 01:16:30.884
so to say.

1525
01:16:31.244 --> 01:16:31.404
Yeah.

1526
01:16:31.505 --> 01:16:32.766
Like eat your leftovers.

1527
01:16:33.827 --> 01:16:34.147
A few.

1528
01:16:35.164 --> 01:16:36.745
Do's and don'ts when it comes to food?

1529
01:16:36.746 --> 01:16:39.106
You already mentioned switching some of your protein,

1530
01:16:39.206 --> 01:16:41.507
at least some of your protein to plant-based,

1531
01:16:41.508 --> 01:16:42.427
but what else?

1532
01:16:43.508 --> 01:16:43.688
Yeah,

1533
01:16:43.808 --> 01:16:45.348
so when it comes to food per se,

1534
01:16:46.869 --> 01:16:47.269
so first,

1535
01:16:47.349 --> 01:16:47.509
like,

1536
01:16:48.390 --> 01:16:49.330
really easy tip is...

1537
01:16:50.014 --> 01:17:05.518
create like a shelf inside your fridge of like leftovers so whatever you have leftovers or things that you know will go bad soonish then you put them all in the same shelf and that already allows you to make sure that they're visible put them on the eye line and that makes it sure that you yeah

1538
01:17:05.618 --> 01:17:19.422
hopefully don't can basically have so much like food waste um then like switching step by step going vegan in a week is is tricky so go take it as a journey go step by step first like

1539
01:17:19.562 --> 01:17:38.995
cut out a bit like beef and change it with pork from pork you go to chicken from chicken you go to then maybe some like tofu and so forth and some more broccoli legumes and so forth and so like seeing as this journey and don't say like okay i need to become vegan in one week go like step by step another really good one that people can do is like when

1540
01:17:38.996 --> 01:17:48.442
you consume fish or like meat try to consume this maybe more in restaurants so when you cook at home you maybe cook more like vegetarian and then

1541
01:17:49.178 --> 01:17:49.298
Yeah,

1542
01:17:49.939 --> 01:17:50.500
when you eat out,

1543
01:17:50.620 --> 01:17:51.220
then you do this.

1544
01:17:52.181 --> 01:17:54.163
And another one that is quite good to...

1545
01:17:54.443 --> 01:17:56.145
I just wanted to bring some nuance here because

1546
01:17:56.525 --> 01:17:58.507
I spend a lot of time talking to regenerative farmers,

1547
01:17:58.547 --> 01:18:00.409
some of them that include animals in their system.

1548
01:18:00.889 --> 01:18:02.851
I've personally been vegetarian for over 10 years,

1549
01:18:03.331 --> 01:18:03.551
but

1550
01:18:03.952 --> 01:18:14.782
I've gained some respect for the nuance there is in these conversations where there are farmers who farm in a way that is respectful of animals and who include them in their system in a way that increases.

1551
01:18:15.362 --> 01:18:21.825
The life in the system increases biodiversity and have actually a positive effect on ecosystems.

1552
01:18:21.885 --> 01:18:23.025
But this represents a very,

1553
01:18:23.065 --> 01:18:26.187
very small percentage of the total animal production today.

1554
01:18:26.807 --> 01:18:27.567
And sure,

1555
01:18:27.568 --> 01:18:29.628
we need to increase that by a lot.

1556
01:18:29.848 --> 01:18:33.510
But that also means that we need to reduce our total consumption right now,

1557
01:18:33.810 --> 01:18:37.131
especially of industrially produced animal products.

1558
01:18:37.511 --> 01:18:37.912
For sure,

1559
01:18:38.112 --> 01:18:38.352
fully,

1560
01:18:38.592 --> 01:18:38.812
fully,

1561
01:18:38.972 --> 01:18:39.732
fully with you on that.

1562
01:18:39.752 --> 01:18:43.134
And I think especially regenerative farmed.

1563
01:18:44.238 --> 01:19:03.055
like animals are a really great transition product as well so if you look at that it's like quite often when we look at cars you know like going directly to electric cars was for a long time quite challenging because the infrastructure was not there so Toyota created like this like hybrid system and so forth so that people can use

1564
01:19:03.115 --> 01:19:11.302
less petrol and partially electric and then when the infrastructure is there then you have electric cars and I see especially this like regenerative

1565
01:19:12.258 --> 01:19:14.939
farmed beef and pork and so forth,

1566
01:19:15.159 --> 01:19:17.140
as a sort of solution.

1567
01:19:18.341 --> 01:19:19.561
And also in the long term,

1568
01:19:19.861 --> 01:19:22.222
I think it can still exist.

1569
01:19:22.262 --> 01:19:25.263
It's just like we need to look at the...

1570
01:19:25.824 --> 01:19:26.684
Is the cow,

1571
01:19:26.824 --> 01:19:27.704
the classical cow,

1572
01:19:27.784 --> 01:19:32.406
really the best possible ecosystem component in there?

1573
01:19:32.946 --> 01:19:35.607
Or can we maybe be a bit more creative,

1574
01:19:35.668 --> 01:19:39.249
like for example the bison used to roam the entire US?

1575
01:19:39.969 --> 01:19:41.670
And right now I think...

1576
01:19:41.990 --> 01:19:43.151
I might get the numbers wrong,

1577
01:19:43.152 --> 01:19:47.013
but I think it's around like 500,000 or something of bison that we still have left.

1578
01:19:47.253 --> 01:19:48.534
It used to be 30 million.

1579
01:19:49.114 --> 01:19:49.994
Bison apparently,

1580
01:19:50.515 --> 01:19:51.235
I haven't eaten it,

1581
01:19:51.335 --> 01:19:54.257
but bison is apparently very tasty,

1582
01:19:54.577 --> 01:19:55.538
very similar to beef.

1583
01:19:55.978 --> 01:20:02.581
And it's actually the animal that was like from nature created to roam in these ecosystems.

1584
01:20:02.601 --> 01:20:05.663
And there is definitely like a healthy threshold like where we can say like,

1585
01:20:05.683 --> 01:20:05.923
okay,

1586
01:20:06.363 --> 01:20:10.526
we farm those rewilded bison and use that as meat.

1587
01:20:10.527 --> 01:20:10.586
So,

1588
01:20:10.587 --> 01:20:10.986
I think that's a really

1589
01:20:11.066 --> 01:20:37.010
always looking at like okay what is the best ecosystem player and is there maybe can we eat them without like damaging their population numbers and like the american bison is a really good example of that and the same goes for like deer right now there's an over population of deer in a lot of like european countries so it's a really good meat to to if you need to switch you can switch also first to this because at least it means that

1590
01:20:37.798 --> 01:20:53.325
there's no editors no drugs in them and so forth and at the same time because they need to be controlled in their numbers like you actually do something positive for the natural world so it's always a bit like exactly is this nuances um for

1591
01:20:53.425 --> 01:21:05.670
a lot of people just always want to make sure it's like just the amount of meat that we eat there can't be like really in my perspective there can't be really a discussion about this do we really need as much meat for breakfast

1592
01:21:05.870 --> 01:21:07.551
lunch and dinner do we really need always like

1593
01:21:08.251 --> 01:21:31.337
100 200 grams or something i think that is like even with regenerative farming you're not going to get those numbers i think at scale and i think it's also not healthy for us and yeah that's that's just what i want to bring to the discussion here yeah there's a there's a healthy balance to be found somewhere and yeah right now we're really really far off in terms of the environmental

1594
01:21:31.437 --> 01:21:33.118
impact we're having on on

1595
01:21:33.538 --> 01:21:37.900
on the planet and on the ecosystem due to intensive animal farming.

1596
01:21:38.580 --> 01:21:43.923
And it's not even mentioning the ethical side of it and the way we treat these living beings.

1597
01:21:43.924 --> 01:21:45.204
We talked about dogs earlier,

1598
01:21:45.244 --> 01:21:50.726
but then we have these living beings who have a lot of personality,

1599
01:21:50.766 --> 01:21:51.547
a lot of emotion,

1600
01:21:51.567 --> 01:21:52.327
a lot of feelings,

1601
01:21:52.927 --> 01:21:58.150
and who we treat in an appalling way that no one should be.

1602
01:21:59.022 --> 01:22:01.004
accepting that we can do that to living beings.

1603
01:22:01.144 --> 01:22:07.430
I think that opens another...

1604
01:22:08.070 --> 01:22:19.681
I really wanted to bring that nuance because I've seen firsthand how amazing regenerative farming systems can be while including animals and how important they can be to regenerate ecosystems actually.

1605
01:22:19.682 --> 01:22:23.144
So they can actually have a positive impact done in a certain way.

1606
01:22:23.625 --> 01:22:24.886
I know it's a very touchy...

1607
01:22:25.206 --> 01:22:25.526
topic.

1608
01:22:26.167 --> 01:22:26.567
And so yeah,

1609
01:22:26.568 --> 01:22:29.149
I just wanted to make sure we brought that nuance to the conversation.

1610
01:22:29.689 --> 01:22:34.052
And I want to let you get back to your citing a few actions,

1611
01:22:34.532 --> 01:22:36.093
or do's and don'ts about food.

1612
01:22:36.234 --> 01:22:37.715
And I interrupted you.

1613
01:22:37.716 --> 01:22:38.135
So I'm gonna...

1614
01:22:38.395 --> 01:22:38.515
No,

1615
01:22:38.595 --> 01:22:38.715
no,

1616
01:22:39.075 --> 01:22:39.916
it's all good.

1617
01:22:39.976 --> 01:22:40.096
No,

1618
01:22:40.536 --> 01:22:43.418
so definitely like food is like the major like look at your food.

1619
01:22:43.599 --> 01:22:44.079
That's like,

1620
01:22:44.519 --> 01:22:47.501
if you can only do like one action first,

1621
01:22:47.922 --> 01:22:48.462
go outside,

1622
01:22:48.982 --> 01:22:49.723
do a bit more,

1623
01:22:50.423 --> 01:22:54.286
go a bit more outside and just like appreciate nature and try to spend a bit more time.

1624
01:22:54.546 --> 01:22:55.527
Because I think if you do that,

1625
01:22:55.927 --> 01:22:57.428
then I think the food part will follow.

1626
01:22:57.508 --> 01:23:05.514
At least I always try to see it as a bit of a step by step process because I don't think people like wake up one day and then they are the next David Attenborough,

1627
01:23:05.534 --> 01:23:06.855
the next Steve Irvin and so forth.

1628
01:23:06.895 --> 01:23:08.676
I see it often like as a step by step journey.

1629
01:23:09.036 --> 01:23:09.616
So first one,

1630
01:23:09.617 --> 01:23:09.977
go out.

1631
01:23:10.457 --> 01:23:10.917
Second one,

1632
01:23:10.957 --> 01:23:11.538
look at your food.

1633
01:23:13.859 --> 01:23:21.845
The third one I would say is like we don't need everybody to be a biodiversity like scientist or nature scientist.

1634
01:23:22.225 --> 01:23:23.066
But I think

1635
01:23:23.586 --> 01:23:24.166
We definitely,

1636
01:23:24.226 --> 01:23:25.266
unfortunately,

1637
01:23:25.367 --> 01:23:28.847
need to still do a bit of homework in terms of the general public.

1638
01:23:28.848 --> 01:23:31.888
We need to have a bit more of a basic understanding of what it is.

1639
01:23:31.988 --> 01:23:35.369
So concepts like the shifting baseline syndrome,

1640
01:23:35.769 --> 01:23:38.470
an understanding of what biodiversity is,

1641
01:23:38.890 --> 01:23:41.651
an understanding of what are the biodiversity pressure points.

1642
01:23:41.751 --> 01:23:43.311
Why are we in this situation?

1643
01:23:43.531 --> 01:23:45.272
So we didn't even talk about this,

1644
01:23:45.332 --> 01:23:45.652
but really,

1645
01:23:45.932 --> 01:23:46.392
really quickly,

1646
01:23:46.732 --> 01:23:48.153
it's habitat loss.

1647
01:23:48.453 --> 01:23:51.114
So it's the major one driver is like,

1648
01:23:51.134 --> 01:23:51.314
okay,

1649
01:23:51.414 --> 01:23:51.914
we just like,

1650
01:23:52.294 --> 01:23:52.414
we...

1651
01:23:53.046 --> 01:24:10.313
take more more more space from nature and re-encroach through agriculture through urbanization and so forth that's number one number two in terms of impact is over expectation so that's especially when it comes to the ocean the most important one because we just like keep on taking far far far too much of what is not sustainable and

1652
01:24:10.333 --> 01:24:21.878
so again very food related because over exploitation is like we really take too much of salmon too much of tuna and so forth and so again it's like food related so already the two biggest impacts

1653
01:24:22.546 --> 01:24:45.152
are basically dealt with quite a lot if you change like a bit like food third one is it's always like some some people put it in other places scientific papers uh climate change so there you have like probably by now you know already a bit more actions that you can take so mobility where energy is coming from and so forth and that has a really big

1654
01:24:45.292 --> 01:24:50.934
impact of the natural world as well because if you let's say coral reefs if we hit like two degrees

1655
01:24:51.622 --> 01:24:52.643
And if we don't change that,

1656
01:24:53.103 --> 01:24:54.844
then unfortunately we lose all the coral reefs.

1657
01:24:54.944 --> 01:24:58.606
And that will create like following effects because people need coral reefs,

1658
01:24:58.786 --> 01:25:03.069
because the fish is protein for billions of people.

1659
01:25:03.669 --> 01:25:09.412
And that will be all gone because coral reefs are playing a crucial part for like nurseries for fishes and so forth.

1660
01:25:09.913 --> 01:25:13.835
And so climate change really important to use certain actions there.

1661
01:25:14.695 --> 01:25:15.456
The fifth,

1662
01:25:15.636 --> 01:25:16.857
fourth one is pollution.

1663
01:25:17.417 --> 01:25:18.117
So pollution

1664
01:25:19.934 --> 01:25:22.495
You've heard this probably tons of times before,

1665
01:25:22.615 --> 01:25:23.035
but like,

1666
01:25:23.075 --> 01:25:23.235
yeah,

1667
01:25:23.355 --> 01:25:24.735
especially when it comes to plastic.

1668
01:25:25.175 --> 01:25:26.936
So have a look of like just yesterday,

1669
01:25:27.256 --> 01:25:27.796
Rafa and I,

1670
01:25:27.797 --> 01:25:30.637
we were watching a documentary about plastic pollution.

1671
01:25:30.697 --> 01:25:32.477
So try to do your part of like,

1672
01:25:32.478 --> 01:25:32.597
OK,

1673
01:25:33.238 --> 01:25:34.078
how can you avoid,

1674
01:25:34.118 --> 01:25:34.638
for example,

1675
01:25:34.698 --> 01:25:35.578
single use plastic?

1676
01:25:35.998 --> 01:25:40.880
How can you try to make plastic of less of an issue in your life and try to reduce it?

1677
01:25:40.881 --> 01:25:41.460
It's good for you.

1678
01:25:41.560 --> 01:25:42.440
It's good for your family.

1679
01:25:42.860 --> 01:25:43.780
It's also good for nature.

1680
01:25:44.481 --> 01:25:45.801
But there's not just plastic pollution.

1681
01:25:45.841 --> 01:25:48.102
There's also light pollution and sound pollution,

1682
01:25:48.562 --> 01:25:49.082
noise pollution.

1683
01:25:49.586 --> 01:25:54.470
So just be a bit aware of all sorts of pollution and try to reduce this.

1684
01:25:55.191 --> 01:25:57.152
And that can be simple as at night,

1685
01:25:57.673 --> 01:26:02.036
don't leave the outdoor lights on because that kills off,

1686
01:26:02.137 --> 01:26:02.617
unfortunately,

1687
01:26:02.857 --> 01:26:04.178
moths and things like that.

1688
01:26:04.258 --> 01:26:06.380
So that's pollution.

1689
01:26:06.941 --> 01:26:09.903
And the fifth one is invasive species.

1690
01:26:09.923 --> 01:26:17.950
So invasive species means that you bring species to another place that are not originally there and then they're creating some damages.

1691
01:26:18.330 --> 01:26:35.337
that's as an individual is quite hard to have an influence on uh just because that often has to do with like logistics like logistics companies or historical contexts where settlers brought some like some european like colonizers brought like animals to

1692
01:26:35.377 --> 01:26:46.402
other places that were not originally from there so invasive species the thing that you can do is mostly connected to plants so have a look at your garden we were talking about pollinators and like insects

1693
01:26:47.314 --> 01:26:47.555
Really,

1694
01:26:47.575 --> 01:26:48.135
really crucial.

1695
01:26:48.155 --> 01:26:51.220
Have a look at your garden of like what kind of plants you may be planting.

1696
01:26:51.320 --> 01:26:54.945
So just by planting native plants like native flowers,

1697
01:26:55.005 --> 01:26:56.327
native trees and so forth,

1698
01:26:56.848 --> 01:26:58.450
you will see your garden coming.

1699
01:26:58.610 --> 01:27:20.556
back with life and so that's like quite a powerful one is like not necessarily touching on invasive species as much um but more of like boosting native species um and that's something really beautiful and i mean like this you can see the changes happening with more birds no more insects and so forth that actually is a little personal story here um so the the

1700
01:27:20.596 --> 01:27:27.198
house i grew up in it's uh in the countryside it's surrounded by a farm and we had a garden and my father is a

1701
01:27:27.962 --> 01:27:28.503
nature lover.

1702
01:27:29.304 --> 01:27:34.769
And he started a few years ago leaving sort of one third of the garden unmowed.

1703
01:27:35.049 --> 01:27:36.070
He doesn't mow it anymore.

1704
01:27:36.071 --> 01:27:36.711
He leaves the,

1705
01:27:37.011 --> 01:27:40.575
he lets the plants grow and herbs grow wild.

1706
01:27:40.955 --> 01:27:42.396
And in just a year or two,

1707
01:27:43.297 --> 01:27:43.978
the life,

1708
01:27:43.998 --> 01:27:44.699
the colors,

1709
01:27:45.259 --> 01:27:45.920
the insects,

1710
01:27:45.921 --> 01:27:48.903
the biodiversity that came to that patch is amazing.

1711
01:27:48.923 --> 01:27:49.804
And it's so beautiful.

1712
01:27:50.184 --> 01:27:52.046
And it's such a source of wonder.

1713
01:27:53.259 --> 01:27:54.500
It's something super easy to do.

1714
01:27:54.640 --> 01:27:59.003
Just stop mowing parts of your garden and actually you will see life come back naturally.

1715
01:27:59.103 --> 01:27:59.724
It's amazing.

1716
01:28:00.384 --> 01:28:00.504
Yeah,

1717
01:28:00.505 --> 01:28:01.605
and I think if you ask like 90%

1718
01:28:01.986 --> 01:28:02.786
of the population,

1719
01:28:02.806 --> 01:28:03.347
I would say like,

1720
01:28:03.427 --> 01:28:03.847
oh my god,

1721
01:28:03.867 --> 01:28:05.308
I don't have to mow the lawn anymore.

1722
01:28:05.569 --> 01:28:06.689
Like it's amazing.

1723
01:28:06.729 --> 01:28:06.850
So,

1724
01:28:06.851 --> 01:28:07.070
you know,

1725
01:28:07.090 --> 01:28:08.411
it's like even the low hanging fruit,

1726
01:28:08.451 --> 01:28:08.891
like you don't,

1727
01:28:09.352 --> 01:28:09.592
you know,

1728
01:28:09.652 --> 01:28:13.235
now you don't have to put like the one hour or two hours to mow the lawn.

1729
01:28:13.255 --> 01:28:13.815
You don't need to.

1730
01:28:14.736 --> 01:28:17.058
It's just like nature takes a course and...

1731
01:28:18.142 --> 01:28:18.262
Yeah,

1732
01:28:18.342 --> 01:28:21.644
like try to look at especially like what kind of plants you grow,

1733
01:28:21.684 --> 01:28:22.565
because if you do that,

1734
01:28:22.685 --> 01:28:24.226
in addition to like letting it,

1735
01:28:24.466 --> 01:28:24.706
you know,

1736
01:28:24.766 --> 01:28:25.546
go a bit like wild,

1737
01:28:26.147 --> 01:28:26.907
you will see like,

1738
01:28:27.047 --> 01:28:27.287
again,

1739
01:28:27.988 --> 01:28:29.869
exactly like this in one year,

1740
01:28:30.009 --> 01:28:31.870
you will already see changes happening.

1741
01:28:32.010 --> 01:28:32.531
And you're like,

1742
01:28:32.571 --> 01:28:32.691
oh,

1743
01:28:32.771 --> 01:28:33.791
why didn't I do this earlier?

1744
01:28:34.152 --> 01:28:35.652
Now give even more land,

1745
01:28:36.173 --> 01:28:36.833
more of my garden,

1746
01:28:36.853 --> 01:28:37.453
more of my garden.

1747
01:28:37.994 --> 01:28:40.535
And I really like this one third example,

1748
01:28:40.575 --> 01:28:43.017
because we were talking earlier about like,

1749
01:28:43.337 --> 01:28:44.918
what does global policy do?

1750
01:28:45.906 --> 01:28:47.867
And they having this like 30 by 30 goals,

1751
01:28:47.868 --> 01:28:48.628
so 30%

1752
01:28:48.629 --> 01:28:51.970
of the planet protected by 2030.

1753
01:28:52.391 --> 01:28:55.713
And I think it's a really beautiful example that we can all take into our personal lives,

1754
01:28:55.793 --> 01:28:56.954
into our communities,

1755
01:28:57.114 --> 01:28:58.074
into our companies.

1756
01:28:58.455 --> 01:28:58.775
It's like,

1757
01:28:58.815 --> 01:28:59.035
okay,

1758
01:28:59.135 --> 01:29:03.938
how can we make sure that this kind of rule is maybe implemented in our lives?

1759
01:29:04.078 --> 01:29:05.059
So how can it be 30%

1760
01:29:05.299 --> 01:29:05.860
of our balcony?

1761
01:29:06.020 --> 01:29:07.221
How can it be 30%

1762
01:29:07.222 --> 01:29:07.521
of my,

1763
01:29:07.661 --> 01:29:08.782
even if it's like a tiny garden,

1764
01:29:09.302 --> 01:29:09.822
30%

1765
01:29:09.902 --> 01:29:10.423
goes to nature.

1766
01:29:11.604 --> 01:29:12.004
Partially,

1767
01:29:12.064 --> 01:29:14.265
maybe some of my company revenues,

1768
01:29:14.366 --> 01:29:14.786
maybe there.

1769
01:29:15.242 --> 01:29:30.366
bits go to nature if i'm a farmer is i know 30 sounds a bit scary but uh is there ways how i as a farmer can contribute to those 30 by 30 goals and maybe make it work individually on my lands and if we all do this then

1770
01:29:30.367 --> 01:29:44.270
we're going to get there because i think it's all of this like little actions and collectively um yeah we can build this water world and i hope that everybody also goes away with this is that it's not too late we all have agency this is a

1771
01:29:44.926 --> 01:30:09.833
tricky situation not going to sugarcoat it but we can choose right now like we're going to be the generation that can say like you know what enough is enough we saw a decline we hit the bottom we want to now bend the trend we want to become nature positive and in our generation we could see more life than what we were born with and i think this is like super exciting and i just want people to get away with that that

1772
01:30:10.213 --> 01:30:14.014
we can be this generation that makes this decision and that acts accordingly

1773
01:30:14.370 --> 01:30:29.394
to create this and for me this is like this is why i'm in this like because it gets me super super excited yeah love that message thank you so much uh just last question if there's one documentary or book that people should absolutely read or watch yeah

1774
01:30:29.974 --> 01:30:42.558
um so netflix it's our planet i think a lot of people know netflix or have netflix so our planet i think is a really good really good solid starter um i think it's like four episodes or something and this shows you just like the beauty of our natural world so

1775
01:30:43.294 --> 01:30:43.934
would take that.

1776
01:30:45.595 --> 01:30:47.596
When it comes to books...

1777
01:30:49.116 --> 01:30:50.357
books books books books books...

1778
01:30:51.117 --> 01:30:52.498
if you're a bit into science,

1779
01:30:52.738 --> 01:30:53.238
a bit like

1780
01:30:53.618 --> 01:30:56.659
I think the rewilding book of

1781
01:30:57.940 --> 01:30:59.781
Cain Blythe is like really good.

1782
01:31:00.401 --> 01:31:12.486
He talks about rewilding and the science behind it so a lot of like the conversation is often like emotionally driven but if you're a bit like into science it has a lot of pictures a lot of infographics so it's not the classic science book or something.

1783
01:31:13.194 --> 01:31:14.035
I would say that.

1784
01:31:17.877 --> 01:31:18.858
Another one,

1785
01:31:19.058 --> 01:31:20.459
David Attenborough has one,

1786
01:31:21.100 --> 01:31:22.341
Life on our Planet,

1787
01:31:22.381 --> 01:31:23.301
I think it's called,

1788
01:31:23.822 --> 01:31:24.842
from David Attenborough.

1789
01:31:25.423 --> 01:31:30.586
He's been like a legend in this nature space and he's seen like the decline of life in our,

1790
01:31:31.367 --> 01:31:32.288
in his lifetime.

1791
01:31:32.768 --> 01:31:37.832
And so he explains it a bit and he talks a bit about the importance of biodiversity and it's really,

1792
01:31:38.912 --> 01:31:41.094
it explains it really nicely how

1793
01:31:41.474 --> 01:31:43.475
how much we benefit from the natural world.

1794
01:31:43.515 --> 01:31:46.157
And I feel even as a nature lover,

1795
01:31:46.357 --> 01:31:52.020
I feel it was like written in a way that really everybody can understand it and really everybody can resonate with it.

1796
01:31:52.740 --> 01:31:56.282
And he's like such a great storyteller that has seen it all in this life.

1797
01:31:56.283 --> 01:32:06.948
So it also makes him really credible because he's seen the wilderness and he's seen it disappearing and he wants us to do better and to bring it back and to actually live on a wilder planet.

1798
01:32:07.008 --> 01:32:07.809
So yeah,

1799
01:32:07.929 --> 01:32:09.069
Life on Our Planet,

1800
01:32:09.109 --> 01:32:10.150
I think it was called the book.

1801
01:32:11.219 --> 01:32:11.461
Sweet,

1802
01:32:11.562 --> 01:32:12.349
I will look.

1803
01:32:12.810 --> 01:32:16.192
them up and I will put them in the description of this episode,

1804
01:32:16.252 --> 01:32:16.792
of course.

1805
01:32:17.552 --> 01:32:18.213
Thank you so much,

1806
01:32:18.373 --> 01:32:18.653
Oliver,

1807
01:32:18.893 --> 01:32:20.093
for this amazing conversation.

1808
01:32:20.193 --> 01:32:21.374
I loved every minute of it.

1809
01:32:21.774 --> 01:32:23.735
And thank you for your time and passion.

1810
01:32:24.756 --> 01:32:24.876
Yeah,

1811
01:32:24.976 --> 01:32:27.837
thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to talk with your audience,

1812
01:32:27.838 --> 01:32:33.920
to talk especially with people that are in the regenerative farming space and that are looking into regenerative agriculture,

1813
01:32:33.921 --> 01:32:36.661
because no matter where you are in this journey,

1814
01:32:36.701 --> 01:32:38.382
you're doing a fantastic job in order to...

1815
01:32:38.970 --> 01:32:39.951
boost biodiversity.

1816
01:32:40.072 --> 01:32:45.218
So thank you so much for listening in and listening to my rumblings and mumblings about nature.

1817
01:32:45.699 --> 01:32:46.180
And yeah,

1818
01:32:46.360 --> 01:32:49.344
hope you took away that nature is not nice to have,

1819
01:32:49.464 --> 01:32:50.225
but a must have.

1820
01:32:50.245 --> 01:32:50.525
And so,

1821
01:32:50.966 --> 01:32:51.126
yeah.