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This week,

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I am in one of the driest places in the whole of Europe,

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the region of Murcia in Spain.

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In this specific watershed,

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the river has completely dried up,

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putting the survival of the entire community at risk.

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Thankfully,

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a small group of people made it their life mission to bring this river back.

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Listen to this episode to find out how they're planning to do that and how regenerative agriculture plays a central role in this project.

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This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital.

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I am your host,

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Raphael.

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And this is the Deep Seed Podcast.

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Yeah,

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so actually right now we're in a piece of land that it's been an experimental plot for the past six,

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seven years on this farm.

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And that's what I've been managing until a year ago.

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So here we've tried to set up a system which is an agricultural system,

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but it's very diverse.

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finally showing it.

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But we realized that working on,

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this is only five hectares,

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the farm,

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it's a thousand hectares.

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And we realized that working,

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whether it's five,

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whether it's a thousand,

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doesn't matter.

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Working only on farm level,

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it's not enough.

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So with everyone else from living and working on the farm,

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we started talking about this

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Kipar watershed idea.

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So we are,

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the farm is set at the spring of a river,

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which is the Kipar River.

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And the spring is drying out.

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It's been contaminated with nitrates.

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It's suffering like most rivers and most springs in the Mediterranean.

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So we thought,

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what if we work at the valley level?

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So with all the landowners,

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all the farmers,

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all the people living in an area which is a watershed,

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it's a valley.

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So we are connected to the water and it makes much more sense than working on,

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I don't know,

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municipality or regional level.

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And then what if we try and bring the change at that scale?

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So that's what we're trying to do now.

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And we're working at the watershed scale.

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Okay,

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so you have this Kipar

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River that starts here at the farm and that normally flows through the watershed here.

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And that river has been drying out.

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And so you have this big project now.

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I read that it's a 30 years long project to try and revive.

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Many lifetimes long.

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Yeah,

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well,

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it's a forever project,

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of course.

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But yeah,

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it's a long-term project.

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It's not a quick fix.

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There's a long-term vision here to work within the watershed with different people,

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different farmers,

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different stakeholders to try to revive this river.

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Is that right?

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Yes.

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Maybe we could start with the assessment of the current situation with this watershed.

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What's the deal?

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Yeah,

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so in the past year,

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we've done a lot of participatory workshops with people from the area.

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farmers,

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livestock,

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farmers,

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teachers,

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school kids.

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So we've tried to put everyone together.

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First of all,

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to assess the situation.

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And really,

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there's a huge agreement on what the problematic is.

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So on one hand,

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it's great.

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Everyone agrees.

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We all know what's the problem.

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On the other hand,

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it means it's very big and very visible.

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And the main things are overexploitation of the aquifers and of water in general,

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contamination of the water,

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so it's not only too much of it which is used.

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because of the intensive agriculture increasing,

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but it's also contaminated because of fertilizers used in agriculture.

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And there's a huge flow of population that goes from the countryside to the city,

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so this area is highly depopulated.

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It's getting old.

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Probably within 10 years,

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most farmers here would be retired,

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which means more bigger companies coming in and buying land,

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possibly.

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So these are like the core elements.

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And then there's,

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of course,

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the element of the climate change,

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which makes farming in such a harsh landscape.

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We're at 1,000 meters elevation here.

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So we usually have snow in the winter.

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We have

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40 degrees in the summer.

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So it's extreme weather.

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And now it's just becoming worse and completely shifting rainfall patterns.

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So it makes it really hard for a dryland farmer to make a living.

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So that's another huge challenge.

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And the farmers that are still here and want to be here cannot.

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It's really hard to make it.

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So these are the core issues that we're facing here.

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So clearly the situation here is very complicated.

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We have highly degraded landscapes,

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depleted aquifers,

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young people leaving and farmers about to retire.

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So how do we solve this?

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What's the plan?

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So we're trying things.

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We don't know how to go about it because we've never done it before.

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But basically we started steering everything we were already doing into this watershed instead of this farm.

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So as I was saying,

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all of these participatory processes,

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so we're looking for projects that allow us to involve people and we just,

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thanks to a European project which is called Humus,

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we...

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did all these workshops,

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which ended up with the signature of a manifesto,

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so like an agreement,

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a deal for the valley,

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where we wrote down what's the current situation,

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what do we want,

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which actions do we need to take.

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So we also tried to make it very practical.

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So the first thing is that,

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like,

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we're aware that we need to involve everyone and as many people as we can.

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So overall,

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we had,

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between these workshops and also...

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interviews that we did in collaboration with the CSIC,

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which is a research institute from Mulsia.

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They're also working on this watershed because they look for funding and they're part of this other European project,

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which is called Landex,

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and they're focused on flood and drought prevention,

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also through participatory processes.

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So we kind of united with that,

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okay,

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we're focusing on the same area,

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we're focusing on the same,

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very similar issues.

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So we combined all these workshops and interviews,

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and we got around 100 people to be interviewed or participating in the workshops.

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So

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I've been living here for five years.

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Afonso has been living here for

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12.

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Other,

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Yannick, seven,

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eight.

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Paco was seven.

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So we have contacts here.

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So that was the first step.

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Okay,

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we call the people we know,

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invite them.

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So it's a guy that has a farm near us or he's the guy that is managing the almond trees or whatever.

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So you start there and then you start with going to the bar and putting signs there or talking to anyone at the bar,

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which I've done anyways always.

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So it's just talking about this and inviting them and asking them if they want to do the interview.

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And it's about collecting your voice and listening to you and not...

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we're not offering these workshops to come and tell you what you should do and then at first people are really not not trusting us like what what is the well what's underneath no and then usually what happens is that when they realize you're actually listening they're really happy and

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they're really surprised that someone is actually calling them and listening to them it's a very important first step is really invite people and then listen before you start talking or

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Yeah.

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Yeah,

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because anyways,

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like whatever solution we want to implement,

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even if we have the master plan,

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it's never going to happen if these people are not engaged in it.

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So we're not even really,

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I mean,

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we have our dream,

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though.

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We know we have a vision of we want this valley to be green,

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to be full of more projects,

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to have many things.

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But in the end,

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it's a bit more about getting out the vision that everybody has and implementing that.

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Otherwise,

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it's never going to be anything.

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and the vision of course is that

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We ended up creating one shared one,

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which is,

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well,

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that the rural doesn't die,

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that we can live in the countryside with the same services that people have in the city,

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that our daughters or grandkids can live here and have a proper living,

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that we can do agriculture and sustain ourselves without destroying our resources.

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So things that are really basic in a way,

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but I think it's quite...

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powerful to put them together and have people say yeah we actually agree on this and then action wise again a lot of things came up but uh yeah the other day that we had like the closing workshop um it was a lot about kind of setting up groups for example a group to promote local

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consumption of of local product and and sustainable products so how do we do that a cooperative or whatever finding solutions in that sense

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And then conversations about doing reforestation along the river,

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so how to get maybe a list of farmers that are interested in doing reforestation on their land,

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or creating groups for volunteers that would want to join all of these actions.

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So very practical things that now we're going to start engaging with.

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I really love that this wasn't about coming up with a master plan and imposing this plan.

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onto everyone else and saying,

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here's the plan,

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here's what we're going to do,

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please get behind it.

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It's exactly the opposite.

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They spend a lot of time talking and listening with the local community.

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So school children,

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teachers,

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local farmers,

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and anyone invested in this landscape one way or another.

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And once they found the common grounds,

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they started creating this master plan that everyone could get behind.

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I want to turn the conversation specifically towards agriculture and regenerative agriculture because that's the

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the central topic of the Deep Seed podcast,

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I assume that a huge part of the land from that region,

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that watershed landscape,

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is managed by farmers,

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right?

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So they are the steward of the land,

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so they are key to...

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the restoration of this ecosystem,

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right?

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Maybe first you could tell us a little bit about how you see regenerative agriculture as part of the solution,

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how it helps with the problems that you're facing here.

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Well,

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yeah,

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this is also everything we were experimenting exactly here.

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It's like,

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how do you build a system which is not destroying the resources,

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which is sustaining the soil,

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the biodiversity,

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but it's also productive.

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The system as it is now,

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it doesn't work.

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There's a drought,

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there's been three years of drought,

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no harvest of cereals,

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no harvest of almonds because then you have the frost.

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And it's true all of these things you cannot control with how you farm,

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you cannot control the flood,

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you cannot,

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well,

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you cannot control the climate,

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but you can diversify enough and prepare yourself and be resilient enough so so that it doesn't kill you,

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but...

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yeah you're you're maintaining and so i think it's multiple layers of regenerative agriculture on one hand is indeed the diversification the the rainwater harvesting all of these known to be more resilient using local varieties different varieties from the most

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conventional ones but then on the other hand i think there's also a big chunk of it which is um how to increase the value of what you produce and whether it's through promoting local consumption and make people a bit more aware of

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how nice it is to eat meat and cereals and almonds from your area rather than get the ones coming from California and not having an alternative.

263
00:11:44.035 --> 00:11:44.152
Yeah,

264
00:11:44.199 --> 00:11:44.394
okay.

265
00:11:45.238 --> 00:11:47.355
You expect buyers,

266
00:11:47.402 --> 00:11:48.683
especially from the local community,

267
00:11:48.777 --> 00:11:50.261
to understand the idea,

268
00:11:50.262 --> 00:11:57.996
the project of regeneration and to be willing to make an effort to buy these products rather than other products at the supermarket.

269
00:11:58.152 --> 00:11:58.261
Yeah,

270
00:11:58.324 --> 00:11:59.746
I think if we all agreed on this,

271
00:11:59.793 --> 00:12:00.715
like we all agreed on,

272
00:12:01.011 --> 00:12:01.699
we have a vision,

273
00:12:01.730 --> 00:12:02.152
which is...

274
00:12:02.418 --> 00:12:17.591
being able to sustain ourselves here and and being able to keep doing agriculture here then we're aware that the way we're doing it doesn't work so doing it regenerative means we're maintaining the resources we're improving the resources so then maybe we are willing to yeah

275
00:12:17.693 --> 00:12:28.724
work for it also as consumers yeah okay i see yeah although i know that most of the times the consumers willing to pay for this are outside which is also fine yeah yeah i think local awareness,

276
00:12:28.849 --> 00:12:29.958
it's super important.

277
00:12:30.005 --> 00:12:31.146
There's got to be a power to that,

278
00:12:31.208 --> 00:12:31.380
right?

279
00:12:31.381 --> 00:12:31.630
Because

280
00:12:32.142 --> 00:12:41.861
If I go to a shop and I see something that is branded sustainable or regenerative from across the world and I have no visual connection to that ecosystem,

281
00:12:41.884 --> 00:12:42.587
I've never been there,

282
00:12:42.588 --> 00:12:43.423
I don't know the people.

283
00:12:44.486 --> 00:12:46.181
Part of me will be like,

284
00:12:46.744 --> 00:12:46.947
yes,

285
00:12:46.962 --> 00:12:50.994
it's really nice to pay extra for this product because I know I'm doing good somewhere in the world,

286
00:12:51.009 --> 00:12:55.791
but I don't have the same emotional connection and motivation to pay more.

287
00:12:57.218 --> 00:12:59.801
that I would have if it was the ecosystem I live in.

288
00:13:00.321 --> 00:13:00.963
It's my region.

289
00:13:01.061 --> 00:13:02.604
It's my bio region,

290
00:13:02.643 --> 00:13:02.963
let's say.

291
00:13:03.706 --> 00:13:03.987
And

292
00:13:04.346 --> 00:13:04.823
I see it.

293
00:13:04.963 --> 00:13:06.346
I drive through it every day.

294
00:13:06.526 --> 00:13:07.409
And I get explained,

295
00:13:07.432 --> 00:13:07.690
actually,

296
00:13:08.049 --> 00:13:11.213
all of this goes towards using less chemicals,

297
00:13:11.753 --> 00:13:12.854
reviving the ecosystem,

298
00:13:12.870 --> 00:13:13.807
the biodiversity.

299
00:13:14.260 --> 00:13:14.495
You know,

300
00:13:14.496 --> 00:13:17.698
this river that used to flow here down in the village that's dry now,

301
00:13:17.745 --> 00:13:18.682
we're trying to revive it.

302
00:13:19.245 --> 00:13:22.948
I would be a lot more motivated to go deeper into my pockets.

303
00:13:23.010 --> 00:13:23.292
Obviously,

304
00:13:23.729 --> 00:13:24.542
not everyone can.

305
00:13:25.042 --> 00:13:25.167
No,

306
00:13:25.292 --> 00:13:25.713
exactly.

307
00:13:26.234 --> 00:13:27.635
But to go deeper into my pockets,

308
00:13:27.756 --> 00:13:28.615
even if it hurts a bit,

309
00:13:29.297 --> 00:13:29.576
because

310
00:13:30.098 --> 00:13:31.018
I know what I'm supporting.

311
00:13:31.920 --> 00:13:32.041
Yeah,

312
00:13:32.042 --> 00:13:32.299
of course,

313
00:13:32.338 --> 00:13:32.861
it's a balance.

314
00:13:32.862 --> 00:13:33.279
But indeed,

315
00:13:33.280 --> 00:13:34.244
when you know it's your neighbor,

316
00:13:35.424 --> 00:13:38.307
it's someone you bring the kids to school with.

317
00:13:38.346 --> 00:13:38.689
I don't know,

318
00:13:38.729 --> 00:13:40.424
when you know it's in your community,

319
00:13:40.447 --> 00:13:43.127
I feel like maybe there's a bit more desire.

320
00:13:43.424 --> 00:13:49.189
There's also a sense of when everyone else around you is supporting a project and helping,

321
00:13:49.236 --> 00:13:52.455
you feel more willing to participate as well.

322
00:13:52.783 --> 00:13:54.518
if you feel like you're the only one you're kind of like

323
00:13:54.910 --> 00:13:56.232
If no one else is making an effort,

324
00:13:56.271 --> 00:13:56.751
why should I,

325
00:13:56.792 --> 00:13:56.972
right?

326
00:13:57.732 --> 00:13:59.954
So that the feeling of being part of a bio-region,

327
00:14:00.095 --> 00:14:01.556
seeing that projects are emerging,

328
00:14:01.638 --> 00:14:03.677
that people are getting together to make this happen,

329
00:14:03.700 --> 00:14:06.224
it must somehow trigger something.

330
00:14:06.419 --> 00:14:06.544
Yeah,

331
00:14:06.545 --> 00:14:08.482
and that's really a feeling I got from these workshops,

332
00:14:08.483 --> 00:14:09.286
that people got their...

333
00:14:09.982 --> 00:14:10.950
Or through the interviews,

334
00:14:10.951 --> 00:14:12.747
you would see people very hopeless,

335
00:14:12.794 --> 00:14:13.154
in a way,

336
00:14:14.044 --> 00:14:15.232
or at the beginning of the workshops,

337
00:14:15.263 --> 00:14:16.075
and then at the end,

338
00:14:16.904 --> 00:14:17.247
of course,

339
00:14:17.248 --> 00:14:18.185
they're very much aware that,

340
00:14:18.216 --> 00:14:18.357
like,

341
00:14:18.388 --> 00:14:18.560
okay,

342
00:14:18.591 --> 00:14:19.513
now we're just talking,

343
00:14:19.638 --> 00:14:20.669
so nothing is changing.

344
00:14:21.872 --> 00:14:22.357
But yet,

345
00:14:22.716 --> 00:14:23.404
a sense of...

346
00:14:24.106 --> 00:14:24.986
a bit uplifted,

347
00:14:25.086 --> 00:14:25.946
a bit inspired,

348
00:14:25.947 --> 00:14:26.786
a bit feeling like,

349
00:14:27.147 --> 00:14:27.346
okay,

350
00:14:27.788 --> 00:14:32.424
I'm not alone seeing this shit around me and I'm not alone having to fight against it.

351
00:14:32.487 --> 00:14:37.307
There's other people that agree with me and maybe we can change something.

352
00:14:37.932 --> 00:14:38.987
That's a great feeling.

353
00:14:38.988 --> 00:14:39.706
It's amazing.

354
00:14:40.870 --> 00:14:42.823
Coming back to regenerative agriculture,

355
00:14:43.995 --> 00:14:49.932
I'm trying to understand how regenerative agriculture practices can help revive a whole river.

356
00:14:50.276 --> 00:14:50.651
What's the...

357
00:14:51.546 --> 00:14:52.267
Sort of the process,

358
00:14:52.268 --> 00:14:53.167
the science behind that.

359
00:14:53.968 --> 00:14:58.952
So the idea is that the river is dry because the water cycle is broken,

360
00:14:59.933 --> 00:15:03.175
which means there is a rainfall.

361
00:15:04.136 --> 00:15:06.058
Most water doesn't infiltrate.

362
00:15:06.605 --> 00:15:07.284
It flows away.

363
00:15:07.339 --> 00:15:09.683
So you have very fast water cycles.

364
00:15:09.698 --> 00:15:10.464
You have the rainfall,

365
00:15:10.465 --> 00:15:11.292
you have floods,

366
00:15:11.293 --> 00:15:12.464
and the water goes away.

367
00:15:13.573 --> 00:15:16.605
Plus there's the extraction of water from the aquifer,

368
00:15:16.698 --> 00:15:20.355
which means the level of the groundwater is going down.

369
00:15:20.518 --> 00:15:23.941
which means there's less water coming to the surface through springs.

370
00:15:25.501 --> 00:15:30.048
And one of the ideas of regenerative agriculture is to restore the soils and...

371
00:15:32.161 --> 00:15:33.423
Nor restored soil.

372
00:15:33.463 --> 00:15:35.345
What they do is that they act like sponges,

373
00:15:35.405 --> 00:15:36.825
which means they infiltrate more water.

374
00:15:37.626 --> 00:15:38.708
So by restoring the soil,

375
00:15:38.709 --> 00:15:40.270
you also restore the water cycle,

376
00:15:40.286 --> 00:15:42.012
which means it rains,

377
00:15:42.614 --> 00:15:43.692
the water infiltrates,

378
00:15:44.075 --> 00:15:45.278
it infiltrates slowly,

379
00:15:45.458 --> 00:15:48.216
it goes slowly into the next layer,

380
00:15:48.341 --> 00:15:49.231
into the groundwater.

381
00:15:49.872 --> 00:15:52.919
And then you have months later springs coming out.

382
00:15:52.934 --> 00:15:53.575
So you have this,

383
00:15:55.466 --> 00:15:57.294
you don't rely on the rainfall anymore.

384
00:15:58.009 --> 00:15:58.130
No,

385
00:15:58.690 --> 00:16:00.592
you're building a system which is spongy,

386
00:16:00.692 --> 00:16:01.432
which is resilient,

387
00:16:01.433 --> 00:16:03.674
and it's slower and more long-term.

388
00:16:04.057 --> 00:16:04.217
Well,

389
00:16:04.275 --> 00:16:05.994
now we're really relying only on the rain.

390
00:16:06.682 --> 00:16:07.479
All the water we get,

391
00:16:07.861 --> 00:16:13.143
a lot of it just goes away and floods all the coast cities.

392
00:16:15.666 --> 00:16:18.713
So what regenerative agriculture does by covering the soil,

393
00:16:18.822 --> 00:16:20.744
by doing water retention,

394
00:16:20.807 --> 00:16:26.635
by creating ponds and swales and tilling against.

395
00:16:26.949 --> 00:16:27.750
The slope,

396
00:16:27.809 --> 00:16:28.549
tilling much less.

397
00:16:28.570 --> 00:16:30.490
So all of this is indeed restoring the soil,

398
00:16:30.531 --> 00:16:31.170
restoring the water,

399
00:16:31.209 --> 00:16:32.310
restoring the water cycle.

400
00:16:33.052 --> 00:16:37.435
And reforestation actions and biodiversity of the whole system.

401
00:16:38.029 --> 00:16:48.068
There's also this research now that says that rainfall depends also on these bacteria that are killed by pesticides.

402
00:16:48.849 --> 00:16:50.099
So you know how the droplet,

403
00:16:50.193 --> 00:16:52.052
they have to hold onto something to make water.

404
00:16:52.380 --> 00:16:52.599
Okay.

405
00:16:53.322 --> 00:16:54.062
I didn't hear about that.

406
00:16:54.182 --> 00:16:56.724
It's dust or bacteria or very,

407
00:16:56.725 --> 00:16:57.047
you know,

408
00:16:57.144 --> 00:16:58.465
micro particles.

409
00:16:59.629 --> 00:17:05.394
And then apparently these bacteria are changing the temperature at which water condenses.

410
00:17:06.355 --> 00:17:09.832
So then they help to have rainfall at lower altitudes.

411
00:17:10.504 --> 00:17:11.863
So kind of having this like small,

412
00:17:12.176 --> 00:17:14.301
more local cycle rather than the big cycle.