Sometimes then what you hear is that,
okay,
someone will point out,
oh,
well,
this guideline has been produced by a certain sector,
so there's a certain sector bias.
It's these guys saying this,
right?
Or it's,
if the industry comes up with something,
it's,
oh,
it's the industry that wants to get the output,
you know?
So,
you know,
there's,
again,
this kind of gap between,
for example,
the citizens and the ones that want to build the project,
right?
Because there is this bias.
And now for the first time,
we have a document and a checklist and whatever that takes the bias out of the conversation.
So if a mayor,
for example,
would use this kind of this checklist to talk to the local citizens,
for example,
about a future project,
and they would kind of go through these principles,
right,
in this checklist to kind of assess whether the developer or the local community or even the local government,
if it's initiating its own project,
wants to do a project.
And somebody says,
well,
but isn't this just,
is there a bias there?
They can say,
no,
there is no bias.
Everybody agrees.
Dear developer,
do you know that your sector association has endorsed this?
Dear civil society,
are you aware?
And dear energy communities,
are you aware?
So you have this kind of common checks and balance system that is in place,
and that is novel.
You never had that.
And locally,
when you go to these citizens assemblies or whatever,
right,
and you see all these different kinds of questions and concerns,
so much of this comes down to perceived bias.
The energy transition is happening,
but is it fair?
Is it working for people like you and me or just for big market players?
Welcome to Energetic.
I am Mayim Cornelis,
an expert in energy and climate policies,
and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future.
Activists,
scientists,
policymakers,
the real people making real change,
often against the odds.
Here,
we do not settle for surface-level takes.
We dig into the challenges,
the solutions,
and the lessons that do not always make the headlines.
And in doing so,
we rediscover something vital.
our ability to trust in institutions,
to believe in change,
and to reclaim our power to act.
Because if we want just resilience,
if we want just transition,
we need to understand what it takes to make it happen.
And more importantly,
we need to believe that we can.
Let's get into it.
What if speed in the energy transition wasn't about removing friction?
In this new episode,
I speak with Arthur Hinch of ICLEI.
the local government for sustainability,
who helped steer one of the most unexpected alignments in European energy,
the Fast and Fair Renewables and Grids Initiative.
With solar and wind projects facing delays of up to five years due to local resistance and permitting hurdles,
this initiative aims to answer pressing questions.
How do we move faster without cutting corners on democracy or fairness?
And the result is a shared blueprint endorsed by industry giants,
grassroots corporatives,
environmental NGOs,
local authorities,
and youth network alike.
They agreed on five principles to scale up renewables with local people,
not despite them.
Arthur takes us behind the scenes,
into the long meetings,
the slow consensus building,
the in-between spaces where decisions really take shape.
So Arthur,
welcome to the show.
Hello Marina,
good to be here.
Arthur,
your background is quite unique.
I learned about it only a few weeks ago when we started preparing.
You first studied Japanology and then moved to urban studies and energy policy.
What connects these dots for you?
Yeah,
that's a question I get asked quite a lot actually.
So it's a fairly logical question.
So it's really my background.
I've been extremely fascinated.
by everything japanese culture since i was a child basically so for me it was always a given that i would enter university and study japanese or japanese studies which i did at the university of leiden in the netherlands but also due to kind of my family background and you know my dad's position as a solar researcher and an energy field i always had kind of interest in energy topics and then
i
In addition to that,
I did a baccalaureate,
a European baccalaureate at the European School of Bergen in the Netherlands.
So I have these are the three worlds,
basically,
and they connected at different moments in my life,
I think.
So
I always had an interest in energy policy,
energy in general,
but also sustainability.
So I think even though I started with Japanology or Japanese studies,
I had the opportunity to
really dive deep into kind of what drives people to engage in sustainability related actions,
not only in Europe but also in Japan and it's extremely interesting to see kind of parallels there and differences and all of that from both kind of social perspective and political perspective.
So I kind of entered into the sustainable energy interest already in Japan,
and then in my master's,
I was able to do a master's in international relations and also at the University of Leiden,
so international relations slash European studies.
Yeah,
and that's where I really dove into kind of this interface between local governments and the European Union.
So yeah,
actually,
I,
in the end,
then spent quite some time with researching,
you know what
What impact does
European energy or environmental policy have on local governments and vice versa also?
And it's really interesting for me to see and respond to a question of what connects these worlds is,
you know,
these facets like culture,
policy and energy,
they all play out differently depending on where you are in the world.
And I find it so extremely fascinating to look at this from a,
you know,
kind of uniquely
Asian perspective as well as the European perspective,
right?
So now I work for an international network of local governments,
which has a presence also in Japan and is headquartered in Germany.
And I work for the European
Secretary of Freiburg in Germany,
kind of being able to bring all of these worlds together in some way or another.
Yeah,
that's really interesting because you are and you've been working on overlapping worlds in a sense,
like from local governments to institutions,
to civil society,
to Europe,
to Japan and so on.
There must be a fascination you have from this kind of in-between spaces,
right?
There's probably something that drew you there.
There's no coincidence,
right?
No,
no,
for sure.
I mean,
I was always very interested in kind of the variety that this offers,
right?
And that's one of the unique selling points and the big purpose of working at ICLEI,
I think,
is that you're able to kind of connect the worlds of the very practical worlds of,
you know,
people actually,
you know,
being responsible and delivering concrete action and being kind of held responsible to the citizens.
and connecting that very practical world to the more kind of often high-level policy world of how europe functions how european policy is made and i i get a lot of kind of satisfaction of being able to kind of move between these worlds i think um it's also kind of from a professional point of view quite refreshing you know and once on sunday you'll be talking to two local mayors and you
know they have their very specific local challenges and and solutions and some the other day you will be talking to the european commission or you can get the regions or you know and having
very high level conversations but then you know those conversations having an impact on again people on the ground right and i think that's so important also going forward so that's what i find very attractive uh and also from a more personal point of view i mean i work in freiburg uh for those that don't know freiburg and brusco is a municipality
of around 250 000 people in the south very south of germany close to basel close to um france and switzerland actually
And it's my hometown.
So I was born here in Freiburg.
You know,
it has kind of internationally known,
you know,
as this kind of green city,
you know,
kind of one of the pioneers in the kind of local deployment of solar energy.
and when I studied actually.
I studied in the Netherlands,
even though I'm German,
I studied actually my entire studies in the Netherlands,
but I always kind of had this connection to my hometown and then I got into energy policy and I found out,
oh,
well,
internationally people talk about Freiburg,
my hometown,
as a kind of...
city that you know you should look into when you're interested in this topic and yeah then i sprint yeah a blueprint exactly and then i really started to identifying with this concept and and um yeah that's why i ended up doing what i'm doing i think yeah i
think in a way we don't realize how much our upbringing shape our experience and then our understanding of the world as well because i mean now you work in between let's say uh different stakeholders
which is also something that I do,
and you work between cultures and countries.
It's really fascinating sometimes to make a step back and see,
yeah,
indeed,
there is no coincidence.
And some of us,
I would say,
were managing to connect some dots at different levels.
We probably don't see them when they happen,
but then we are like,
ah,
yeah,
of course,
of course it happens.
I mean,
the experience you just shared with the
like being able to discuss with different levels.
I remember having it a long time ago when I was in Brussels with the energy ombudsman.
I was handling complaints in the morning.
And then in the afternoon,
I was at the European Commission and there were completely different jobs,
but they were indispensable,
right?
Because it's really in this kind of,
in working through these frictions that you actually get some best result.
And that leads us to the
Fast and Fair Renewables and Grids Initiative,
which was months in the making.
And I mean,
I've heard about it.
I know it sounds really groundbreaking and really interesting.
There's an event,
I think,
at the end of September 2025 in Brussels.
But
I'm really interested in understanding if there was any kind of spark to start with or...
some gaps that you have been identifying and what they were i mean was it coming from this kind of let's say very empirical and observation that there was gaps well yes to answer the question shortly i mean this is exactly it um there is gaps i mean gaps in the sense where there's
challenges in the sense that you know projects are um accelerating i mean we see more projects around europe which is nice but we don't see them still at the speed that is required and often i mean not only and there's different reasons why projects kind of get delayed and you know different different reasons you know lack of staff and permitting authorities
lack of digitalization what have you you know but a significant fact is actually the the kind of local acceptance and the local engagement of local citizens with real energy and grid infrastructure
electricity grid infrastructure and what you see in practice is that of course you know the majority of europeans you know tends to be in favor of more renewables and more wind more solar but actually when it comes down to local projects the situation is not always as easy and quite regularly you know the
majority of local people might be in favor of the project locally but then some will not and they have their own reasons they might be very vocal about it for their own reasons
so there certainly is a gap right i mean the gap is simply that the local level different stakeholders i suppose you know be the citizens or local environmental groups or local cooperatives so local developers or local investors they often don't agree yeah so this is this is it or they they don't agree or they
have different let's say intrinsic motivations sometimes or often what they want to get out of the project and this is not due to
any form of kind of malice or anything this is simply because how the energy system works right if you're the developer you want to get a profit out of your project if you want because you have a need to maintain a profit margin right if in a business and if you're the investor you want to get a return on your investment and if you're the land owner who
might be from the community but also might be third generation no longer living in the community you want a land lease payment if you're the environmental group you want to protect nature if you're the energy cooperative you might I'd want to have a direct...
participation,
local ownership of the new renewable energy installation.
Citizens have their own reasons potentially concerned.
Some of them are also very enthusiastic about it.
Then you have the local government and the majority of,
let's say,
large-scale renewable energy installations are deployed in rural areas.
Same goes for grids,
I suppose.
Transmission grids.
What you then see is often
that the local government has an interest in the project because they want to meet their own energy climate targets,
they want to have some value from the project locally.
But often the mayor then or other local government staff or persons are in the position that they have to mediate between these interests.
Simply that's often the fact of the matter,
that's how the dynamics often play out in rural communities.
And that is not an easy thing to do.
Like if you imagine like you're a rural mayor in a small municipality,
in particular a member state,
we looked into a couple actually,
the situation is often that,
you know,
you're a voluntary mayor and you have a ton of things in your portfolio that you need to take care of.
And then the deployment of an additional wind park is an additional thing.
And you often either have the staff,
the technical capacity,
you know,
the finances to kind of really look into this,
right,
or actually mediate.
But what you then often see is projects that are actually
accepted and where the local enthusiasm that is often correlated or happens at the same time as there being a lot of trust in the local mayor for example right so they usually see this important position of the local mayor or the local government in kind of mediating between different interests at the local level so that the project does not escalate everything comes together harmoniously and you really have examples of that and
that results in the projects not being delayed
because they don't end up in court and the court doesn't have to step in and rule what is fair.
Instead,
fairness is agreed beforehand between all the parties.
So that's the fundamental problem.
And we then thought,
because we've been working as ICLEI in this field for a long time together with the other stakeholders that have endorsed the initiative,
but we initially from our side,
we thought,
okay,
we represent local governments.
We see that there is an issue.
This is one of the the key issues.
One of the key issues is,
as I said,
low call.
conflicts and differences in opinions.
But how about we get all these stakeholders together at a higher level and we agree at a high level once and for all,
what does it actually mean to deploy a project fast but fairly?
And then with the idea of trickling that down to the local levels and how we do that in practice is something we can talk about,
of course,
later in this conversation.
Yeah,
that's really interesting because a few episodes ago,
I had Cédric Aran of CanEurope,
talking exactly about what really...
just transition means and a few episodes ago i also had a researcher a junior in bangalore who works exactly on this kind of rhizome project rhizome understanding so almost a philosophical understanding that we are not alone when we take a decision we are all connected at different levels and
the way we make our decisions we take our decisions is actually shaped by the surroundings that we have.
And right now,
you just did the line that,
for instance,
mirrors.
may be under a lot of strains.
There may not be enough capacity at their local level.
Maybe they don't understand.
Maybe they don't see why something happens in their municipality and not in the other one.
So they hear things like windmills are ugly or things like that.
And they get also influenced by that.
And of course,
they want to please their constituents.
So they have this very important role as you
mediator but first and foremost they need to be convinced of the importance of let's say uh the project to to happen and for that they also need their viewpoint to be heard right because disagreeing is actually very important to find a consensus at the end of the day right you
need to to be expressed to your frustration first otherwise it breaks down at a later stage perhaps yes
Well,
I mean,
in the end,
I mean,
what I've seen locally is that it comes down to very kind of human reasons,
ultimately,
right?
Because,
you know,
the people want a project and in an ideal scenario,
they all kind of get along and they all collectively see a value,
right?
So,
and the question is,
of course,
you know,
how do you deliver added value of a particular project to a local community in a way that is kind of...
satisfactory to the local community,
but also in a way that is then of course complying with national regulations and all of that.
So that's a bit of this interface between this high dynamic situation between humans and different ideas and maybe also emotions.
And on the other hand,
the question of how does all of that fit within the reality for spatial planning procedures and permitting regulations and all of that.
And that's where it becomes tricky.
And that's exactly the interface that I think this Fast and Fair Renewable Grids Initiative that we now have launched actually is trying to to
come in right and kind of bridge that bridge that gap and yeah indeed i am aware that you talked to say that can europe um actually so we uh talking quite regularly within the context of initiative and um yeah the the initial idea was also certainly to have kind of a close you
know collaborations between local government and civil society uh within the context of all of this and so indeed so i'm quite happy that can europe of course is one of the organizations that
that represents civil society and organizations battling dangerous climate change in the Fast and Fair initiative,
which is quite important.
You've been saying that the Fast and Fair initiative is a very social,
very human project.
What do you mean by that?
I really think that a lot of parties,
stakeholders,
whatever that means,
are kind of afraid of,
you know,
the challenges that it represents to.
build this consensus but you said it's very social it's very human so how did that happen yeah did you move forward yeah exactly i mean in very practical terms i mean it's it's a social project because it's a it's an initiative that tries to solve a social problem which is local conflicts due to the decelerated deployment of renewables and grids with
a social approach by you know getting different organizations
who are of course represented by different people,
to agree on a baseline,
on a consensus.
And that is simply a social approach.
So in the end,
in very practical terms,
how did this play out?
Originally,
when we had this idea,
we started reaching out to the organizations that have now actually endorsed the principles,
with just the distance to just have a chat.
yeah let's just talk about it yeah and the the advantage of course is they knew they knew us i mean they knew eclair europe right many of the organizations they are regularly in touch already it's not like the end all things they are not talking at all to each other that would be very far from the truth the fact is just they have not yet agreed on a cross-sectoral baseline on fairness yeah so that's the novelty here but
yeah in reality we just invited all the stakeholders to chats to explain the the idea and i think the crucial part here was to really explain that
you know we're doing this for the common good we're doing it and to have a win-win situation for everyone right so and this is important to understand i think all the stakeholders came into this commented this with the kind of expectation that they're kind of contributing to the formation of this of these principles and this initiative in the long run but
at the same time you know everybody gets something out of it right because you know from the developer's point of view
The win-win situation is that if these principles are adhered to,
not only by the developers,
obviously,
but also the other stakeholders in the sectors are equally responsible in upholding these principles.
If everybody sticks to these principles,
then projects don't ever end up in court,
at least not for the reason of acceptance problems.
So that's a huge win from the industry side.
And then,
of course,
from the,
for example,
environmental organizations,
there's emphasis on...
upholding the mitigation hierarchy,
for example,
and the deployment of measures to compensate the impact of infrastructure,
for example,
from a nature point of view.
That is in the text.
Of course,
from the environmental organizations,
that's a big win for them.
Equally for the energy cooperatives and energy communities in the mix,
we have a clear principle that now says everybody,
regardless of whether you're a big,
small developer,
corporate or a non-profit
all agree on the importance of renewable energy communities and citizen-led and co-owned installations.
That's the novelty here.
And arriving at that point is very social,
because everybody needs to be actually conscious and aware or needs to feel from the very beginning that this has a chance of succeeding.
But really from the perspective of,
you know,
there's really benefit for us to do this,
because this is not a
European project in the sense that,
you know,
We're not a consortium of like,
you know,
10 partners that are paid for this.
It's,
you know,
that's not the case.
So it's just everybody's in this because of NextSend for everyone.
Well,
there's a moment when you felt that there was a very different interest at stake.
And maybe,
you know,
just putting people around the table wouldn't work out that successfully.
yes
I mean in the sense that that's
That's,
I think,
a normal process of trying to build consensus in a heated topic.
Yeah.
I mean,
when you're trying to set out and say,
okay,
let's jointly identify across the sector what fairness means,
you know,
initial reactions were,
okay,
cool.
But isn't that ambitious?
You know,
it's like,
yeah,
sure,
it's ambitious.
But,
you know,
if we don't do it,
if we don't try it and never achieve.
So,
yeah,
there's certainly been this amount of moments.
I think
I won't
be able to go into like exact you know the content of who and what i think that was kind of between the different stakeholders during the consensus building process it's not necessarily something that that needs to go live but yeah i mean if you look at the principles right i think the readers and listeners will be able to discern
relatively quickly which of these principles might have been the more tricky ones to kind of get yeah you know for-profit industry and non-profit industry and communities to agree on,
right?
Yeah,
so let's get into it.
Let's go into these principles.
Let's go from tricky to less tricky,
as you wish.
Yeah,
fine.
Yeah,
let's go for what is the trickiest?
What was the trickiest for you?
Well,
so I think when you look at kind of existing guidelines and activities that happen around Europe,
around the,
you know,
kind of creating community value or acceptance.
offering global energy infrastructure and equally electricity grids.
And you see that there's common reference to certain themes,
right?
So the importance of having local projects,
communities need to have local influence.
You have a local project,
but you also need to have local value,
right?
So this is not new stuff.
We see this quite often,
right?
You also see quite a lot of reference in terms of the environmental element that needs to be really taken into account thoroughly.
So that's not so novel.
The last principle,
which is on kind of empowering community-led initiatives,
I think this is where,
well,
it's not,
let's say,
the easiest to kind of to get everybody on the same page,
I suppose,
in terms of how,
you know,
this,
but also other principles could be phrased.
But again,
I think this is a fairly technical conversation.
But again,
I think it's quite clear when you just look at the sub criteria,
you know,
what the difficulty might have been there.
but to maybe answer it like this
The situation in Europe up until now was that we had in the Renewable Energy Directive,
for example,
certain articles pertaining to the importance of presumerism,
renewable energy community and collective self-consumption.
These articles had to be transposed into
European legislation already for quite a few years.
And even now,
the speed and the degree to which that has happened differs significantly between the countries.
and there's also significant differences
in terms of how different member states have kind of implemented an enabling framework,
for example,
for renewable energy communities and citizen energy communities,
respectively,
right?
Yeah,
yeah.
In Italy,
for instance,
it's very,
very different from what you see in Belgium.
And I mean,
it's very technical,
very business oriented,
very,
it's not that bottom up.
And actually,
in Italy,
they had to invent the social energy community.
to bring back the social into the mix whereas in the directive i mean at first glance it seemed quite obvious that it should have been included but you know it's the devil really lies in the detail for implementation exactly exactly that's it and i think what you also have seen in the past a lot uh and still to some extent is of course that the
element of renewable energy communities being included in the legislation and the need to create proper enabling frameworks for them used to be primarily promoted by civil society.
Not only,
but generally speaking.
And that's no longer the case.
So now we have actually an agreement across the control that there needs to be an enabling framework and a level playing field for energy communities and actors with less financial and administrative capacity on the energy market.
And the fact,
I think,
that we now have an agreement on this point between the energy community sector and the civil society and the large solar and wind industry associations is saying a lot.
And I think that very fact in the future will help a lot when it comes to,
well,
continuing to pushing further enabling frameworks for renewable energy communities,
for starters.
But also simply just to encourage or to ask for really more projects to have some kind of component of local direct financial or even ownership participation.
And the fact that we now have this kind of consensus between the sectors is really quite something.
And this,
but also other points,
I suppose,
of course,
that's why this process took six months,
because different sectors,
stakeholders go at a document and exercise like this with different motivations.
Some things could be in the document even more emphasized.
So this is the fine nuance,
I suppose.
And
I won't go into who said what specifically,
because that's among the endorsing stakeholders.
this and but yeah
yeah it's quite clear when you read the document and yeah it's it's not a easy subject in first place yeah yeah i know that's uh that's really important just to like not to start from uh to naive place you know to know that different stakeholders will have different motivation and different
objectives and maybe some will endorse without second thoughts whereas some other will have to work also.
kind of internally within their organization to make sure that,
you know,
they become the blueprint that it's meant to be.
And
I see that,
you know,
it's very straightforward probably for,
let's say,
NGOs,
organizations with more social purpose,
etc.
But it's probably still,
there are still some passages that may be still in their discussion from for certain organizations as well,
like,
because it's such a high level that
And again,
because the devil lies in the detail that,
you know,
it's not that easy.
But I guess that's it's what makes it concrete.
But what else could make really that initiative so concrete and so grounded that we will see like the results in the years?
Yes,
yes,
exactly.
And so maybe just one remark on the details,
yeah,
the devil lies in the details.
I think that's where the initiative and the principles get a lot of credibility from.
it's not like you know
a group of organizations just came you know together for a half an hour meeting and then brought up these principles actually that we had these meetings that we had a longer workshop in brussels where we tried to consolidate that and then there were many conversations after so actually we had a launch event and
until you know just a couple of days or even one day before the launch event it was not clear whether everybody will endorse so it was really kind of a game yeah
really a bit of a game in that sense,
ultimately with a very positive outcome,
but that's how these things go.
Then in terms of what makes that concrete is the fact that it took quite a long time to negotiate this.
So basically every word that's in this document has been scrutinized in that sense,
has been evaluated by the different organizations and their respective members,
or at least the organizations have consulted the membership,
right?
So that's why you can trust that this process
um has gone through a legitimate phase and it gives consultation phase and this discussion phase so just to kind of remark that and then when it comes to the concrete kind of application of this now this is of course where it becomes interesting because that's basically what the future is all about right so indeed we now need to ensure that these principles actually get
used and applied locally in concrete projects yeah so
There's a couple of things that we have planned.
So first,
I mean,
now with the launch event of the principles and,
you know,
this launch event also being the moment where I thought,
OK,
well,
now this has indeed tons of potential because,
you know,
all the stakeholders came together and they said why they thought this initiative was important.
They gave good best practices from their context.
And then we founded the initiative.
It's now its own kind of presence online.
So fastfaireenergy.eu and with the ambition really to create kind of...
the ultimate European go-to hub for fairness around energy.
So this is really where you would go when you want to know,
okay,
what are best practices that are kind of supported by the different sectors,
you know,
that they can agree behind.
To what extent does knowledge exist that kind of really supports the argument that you need more measures locally to drive fairness or acceptance?
To what extent does that knowledge connect?
those measures to lead an acceleration of renewables i think that's something that we need more and more research into and i would really look forward i'm really looking forward to more and more of this kind of research materializing and where that a couple of institutes are looking into this but this is something we need more of right so this will be kind of hosted on the initiative and that's the idea but
then more importantly or not more importantly but like certainly also very importantly we want to engage further with local governments and with the the numbers of the different European organizations.
So what we've been doing in the past couple of months as ICLEI in partnership with a couple of other organizations,
we have talked to many rural local governments,
mostly in a few countries.
So in Germany,
Spain,
France,
Italy and Poland.
And we really asked them,
kind of,
what is your perception,
your subjective perception of fairness in your project?
Right.
And we got hugely different responses.
Right.
But they all kind of,
you know,
showed a general trend.
and the general trend is that why...
there seems to be quite some evidence actually of the positive impact of renewable and also electricity green infrastructure locally in terms of value the bottom line often is that unfortunately these kind of approaches are not deployed across the board they're not the norm yet and that is really an issue from the local government's perspective it's an issue but
also from everybody else's issue that's and i would say the perspective that's an issue because projects end up in court often right so we have carried out
these conversations we have this long document all these statements from mayors because we wanted actually you know the local governments have a voice in all of this i think we on the european discourse level kind of there's too few direct statements from local governments in this debate and that's something we wanted to contribute with his paper i think this is quite important and
then we have not only interviewed and talked to mayors that would have been nice by itself but we also have delivered workshops for them so we've actually engaged in these five countries we
took these principles and we basically converted them into a checklist it's hosted on the website of the initiative and basically what it does it showcases the five baseline principles of the fast and fair renewables and grids initiative and showcases them as
not only a checklist that you can go to basically but when you deploy a new project but as a kind of mediation tool so it takes these principles which are these high level principles which tend to be
raised you know quite generally because they need to be applicable across all the different member states and it takes them and it kind of slims them down to a couple of questions and so as the municipality or also as anyone else you can take a look at this checklist and you basically use
it to determine first whether your project kind of meets this cross-sectoral standard or this agreement in terms of what fairness is now why is this important i mean you could just say Yeah,
well,
it's just another kind of guideline,
right?
Fair enough.
The difference here is that this checklist is really rooted in a cross-sectoral consensus,
which means that it's incredibly credible.
The nice thing about this,
and this used to happen sometimes in the past,
is like,
you know,
some organization develops their guideline and there's tons of really good guidelines out there,
how you develop community benefits and acceptance and enthusiasm.
They all have a lot of value.
I would really encourage people to take a look at those.
But sometimes then what you hear is that,
okay,
somebody will point out,
oh,
well,
this guideline has been produced by a certain sector,
so there's a certain sector bias.
Or it's these guys saying this,
right?
Or it's,
if the industry comes up with something,
it's,
oh,
it's the industry that wants to get the output,
you know?
Yeah.
So,
you know,
there's again,
this kind of gap between,
for example,
the citizens and the ones that want to build the project,
right?
Because there is this bias.
And now for the first time,
we have a document and a checklist and whatever that takes the bias out of the conversation.
So if a mayor,
for example,
would use this kind of this checklist to talk to the local citizens,
for example,
about a future project,
and they would kind of go through these principles,
right,
in this checklist to kind of assess whether the developer or the local community or the local government,
if it's initiating its own project,
wants to do a project and somebody says,
well,
but isn't this just is there a bias that they can say,
no,
there is no bias.
Everybody agrees.
Dear developer,
do you know that your sector association has endorsed this?
Dear civil society,
are you aware?
And dear energy communities,
are you aware?
Right?
So you have this kind of common checks and balance system that is in place.
And that is novel.
You never had that.
And locally,
when you go to these citizens assemblies or whatever,
right?
And you see all these different kinds of questions and concerns.
So much of this comes down to perceived bias.
And the idea is if you take this out of the conversation and you agree across the sectors,
then you have a completely different departure point for your conversations.
And the hope is that in the future,
this will be.
more there will be more harmonious kind of conversations going forward yeah so that's a long way to kind of answer your question about the concreteness i suppose so we're having more of these kind of workshops where we explain this to people we have a general exercise but also where we're trying to take the european principles and
adapt them into the framing of the let's say spatial planning and permitting relations in several member states we're going to start primarily with germany and spain now in the coming year
Because that's from a more practical point of view,
because as a mayor or as a developer operating in a certain energy market context or regulatory context,
you'll be working within that context,
which means that you,
of course,
can refer to high level statements.
But it's easier to refer to those high level statements if their phrase in a way that is easily connectable to the realities of,
let's say,
your space planning or permitting framework.
Right.
So this kind of adaptation exercise we're doing,
we're inviting,
again,
that kind of national organizations to contribute to that.
So the kind of mirror organizations,
the European stakeholders.
And then we're doing tons of communications work,
interviews,
and it's nice to see this popping up in the media sometimes.
Not yet as much as I would like,
but it's coming down,
so it's nice.
Yeah.
And I mean,
you're about to take a six-month break in Asia,
including Japan,
where part of your academic journey begins.
So perhaps we'll export the Fast and Furious initiative to Japan,
or maybe learn a few things about connecting
cultures and building bridges,
right?
Because it's been all about that.
And I found what you said about this kind of perception of bias and perception of fairness incredibly powerful.
And
I guess that it's really by having a very open mind who has traveled that you managed to see through these things.
So would you dream to export it to Japan?
Or at least this way of doing it.
Yeah,
that's a good question.
I mean,
I do have my connections,
my professional connections in Japan as well,
kind of in the energy space.
Actually,
back in the day when I did my bachelor,
I used to intern at an organization called ISAP,
the Institute for Sustainable Energy Policies,
which is by the way,
they're to blame for kind of me now working on,
you know,
community acceptance and all of that,
because I've been doing work related to kind of collective energy action in Japan.
whatever's in their place and that's kind of it.
No,
I could have,
but we already jumped to the next question.
But yes,
that's indeed one of the reasons indeed.
So if anyone listens to the conversation in its entirety,
they will find it out.
And I'm sure they will,
I hope.
But in any case,
it would be interesting to do that,
right?
So,
I mean,
the
Fast and Furious Nibbles and Grids consensus is an exercise that is in its core replicable.
Yeah,
so having said that...
within europe there was no need to do this exercise again we already have an adaptation so even if you know to go to the national countries we're not reopening any principles we're just asking the questions how do you rephrase them within the context of these existing regular relations that they even easier usable in practical terms yeah you can even use them without but it's may would make it even easier now if you go into other regions of the world we
have of course also keeping in mind that we're selling this as a european kind of consensus right cross procedural consensus.
indeed the question would arise to what extent you would need to kind of readapt or redo this consensus building exercise a little bit to you know conform to the realities of the u.s market or the you know south african market or the the japanese market or the asean market for that sense right and
the reason for this is because i think perceptions of renewables in terms of to what extent they are accepted locally and or how these dynamics play out locally you know how
how people kind of voice their either enthusiasm or not enthusiasm,
kind of the disagreement.
You see that kind of differ a lot between different countries in the world.
You know,
it's also depending on general kind of democracy dynamics and the kind of social dynamics,
I think.
And this will certainly influence how the exact principles will be phrased.
There are certain terms in the kind of technical terms that I think might not be.
So in reader in the US or in Canada,
for example,
certain terms might...
without further explanation,
not be entirely clear what we mean with them.
And this is quite important to have this kind of.
So,
so yeah,
so that's kind of the question mark there.
For now,
we're focusing on Europe,
but certainly to my knowledge,
this exercise is also the first one globally that has actually done that.
I don't think there's been a cross-sectoral agreement on fairness in other places in the world.
At least if there is,
I'd be happy to learn about it and connect.
But I don't think that's the case yet.
So that's the technical part in terms of would I be interested in exporting it?
Maybe let's
Now we're focusing on the implementation in European fronts.
I mean,
ICLEI,
of course,
is a global network and all of that.
But at the moment,
ICLEI Europe and the endorsing stakeholders currently are focusing on European context.
And then potentially there's room for the kind of global export.
And then to answer your question on the next six months.
So indeed,
I'll be going on sabbatical and I will be not working on this.
so so i will be doing anything else than working on this and i need a bit of a distance i think it was a intense year i think um for for me certainly and also the colleagues kind of working with me on this initiative and this project is you
know it certainly has been like you know multiple months of you know having kind of told everyone this is what we want to do and this is what needs to happen and you know everything has kind of been going to high levels and everything but there was
Until one day before the launching went,
there was never a guarantee that this will actually happen.
So it was basically one year of hoping and pushing for it.
And that's just how it goes.
That's just how it goes.
But that plus me now working on the topic of collective energy and acceptance for,
I think,
the last eight,
nine years.
I think I need a bit of a break.
Go back to Japanese culture.
That's what I'm going to do most of the time.
look at it from that perspective and come back refreshed and kind of re-enter all of this,
which of course I look forward to do.
And in the meantime,
the initiative does not sleep,
not at all.
There's tons of activities planned.
Some of them I've alluded to,
and my colleague Sylvia Salini is the coordinator of the initiative in my absence.
But yeah,
I'm looking forward to a bit of a breather.
It's great.
One very,
very last question.
Is there any kind of lesson you would like to learn from this
trust building exercise.
I mean,
it's not,
I've had people who talk about the initiative,
but not so many people who talk about how you build it.
So I find it incredibly valuable,
really the how to.
And yeah,
for me,
it's from the conversation we've been having really this part around the various definitions of the fact that,
you know,
people are kind of afraid of the bias or really
Believing that the other party has an ulterior motive and being some kind of a break for further action because you feel that there is no level play field or there might be full play somewhere and so on.
I find it incredibly interesting in what you just said.
And,
you know,
the listeners know that I'm really fascinated about the topic of trust,
how you build it,
how you make it happen in concrete terms.
but yeah,
beyond...
really the project results what what is the lesson you would like to to to take with you on your luggage to japan yeah so so just maybe in terms of my lesson and then maybe the kind of lesson and generally for for others who might replicate something like this in other fields so
in terms of my lesson so i really enjoyed bringing people together behind something that i truly believe makes a difference for the sake of the common good
I mean,
that's key.
We were talking about sustainability.
That is really key.
It's about different sectors coming together for a certain given purpose.
And especially for renewables,
I mean,
it's really about this all hands on deck approach.
We need more renewables and renewables are the thing to do.
We need to achieve climate neutrality.
So let's all agree on how to do this in a fair way.
So that's,
I think,
what has been achieved without creating additional legislation.
That's also just something to mention.
This is not a legislative initiative.
This is a sectoral initiative because people came together because they thought it was a good idea.
So that's something I want to do more in the future.
I think it's something
I took a lot of satisfaction out.
Of course,
it was challenging,
but I took a lot of satisfaction when it actually materialized and now also being able to talk about it and seeing how these principles hopefully will be further taken up locally,
which in itself will take a lot of work,
I'm sure,
in the future.
but that's something i would like to do more certainly yeah and in terms of for someone else so based on my experience yeah there's a couple of things supposed to understand but the bottom line is that i think giving everyone the idea that we're in this for a win-win situation from the very start is very important so the first email you send to any organization or person that you want to have be part of this make sure that this is bulletproof in the sense that
there is no you know it's already clear that this is not you know you're not doing this to further the gain of your own organization primarily or you're not trying to push a certain narrative on stakeholders i think that's quite important i mean of course it has helped for this particular project that eclair europe has been active in the field for a long time we have been working a lot with you know civil society with with energy communities with the the industrial players as well you know different occasions but
we have our foot in in all these kind of worlds a little bit and we also perceived
as the party in the middle sometimes,
quite regularly.
And I think that has helped us as ICLA Europe and also me as
Arthur Hinge,
that has initiated and facilitated this,
to move this across the Finnish line.
So I think that is a very unique kind of context that needs to be maybe understood here.
And of course,
what also helps is you need to be able to facilitate processes.
It's a thing,
if you have a workshop and then you have to be able to...
have someone that is able to manage and moderate a workshop like that.
So it comes with a lot of knowledge.
Yeah.
So
I feel I mean,
it feels a bit weird to kind of talk about myself in this way.
But I think the fact that I've been I have been working at Eclay now for about seven years and this field for like eight or nine.
And I think,
you know,
there's a lot of knowledge that comes with it in terms of energy policy,
the nuances in terms of,
you know,
which organization is in favor of which and
you know anticipating which organization is going to make a stronger push for a certain topic and then anticipating how the other organization might respond to it and then before it comes to the discussion anticipating already the outcome of that discussion that is something that you know is is what's not unimportant was quite important actually here with this with this particular exercise and i can imagine if you take this similar
kind of approach to other fields it might be similar yeah and of course when you look at you know how european policy or anything is Because maybe that's...
that's just how it works and that's how consensus is a common that's how consensus is achieved but i think in terms of the replicability it can be done in in any kind of scenario where there is a issue that can be solved at a higher level by
bringing people together and of course i'm really hyper focused on renewables so i
don't have the overview of all the other kind of fields i mean basically we are quite large we know we're like 200 people like working on like nds and ngb solutions and all of all these other sustainability related topics but so i can't tell you exactly the details of other topical fields and the replicability but i can imagine that you would have similar scenarios where you know there is certain simply because of the nature of of
of certain frameworks or markets or whatever that there would be differences in opinion.
And often there is a...
cause for these differences and they're not because people don't agree because they don't like to agree it's because they come from different perspectives intrinsically based on what they what organization or secular represent and then this can can often be mediated at a higher level and that requires that this facility actually able to to
do this based on your knowledge that's required over a long time so i think that's that's quite important to to approach from that perspective as well yeah okay
Arthur,
thank you for this really incredibly passionate conversation about trust building and fairness.
And
I mean,
I learned a lot and I will definitely follow super closely the
Fast and Fair renewable initiatives.
And there are so many lessons to learn.
So I hope our listeners and viewers will find it as interesting as I do.
So when can we start contacting you again,
Arthur?
Well,
I am still working until the end of August and then I will be gone for six months and I'll be back on the 1st of March.
So if people want to contact me,
then they can do that 1st of March.
But having said that,
the initiative is very much contactable.
And that's my colleague Sylvia.
So there's actually the website.
It's,
I think,
info at fastandfairenergy.eu or something.
There is contact details,
of course,
for the initiative as a whole.
And the initiative carries forward even.
when I'm not there,
because I'm quite happy that it does,
because that would be rather horrific if it's just depending on me.
Thank you so much,
Arthur.
Enjoy your well-deserved break.
And please come back with many more ideas and a lot of energy,
of course.
And yeah,
all the best for the future.
Thank you so much,
Arthur.
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