WEBVTT

1
00:00:01.802 --> 00:00:02.922
Sometimes then what you hear is that,

2
00:00:03.004 --> 00:00:03.203
 okay,

3
00:00:03.283 --> 00:00:04.062
 someone will point out,

4
00:00:04.145 --> 00:00:04.266
 oh,

5
00:00:04.285 --> 00:00:04.445
 well,

6
00:00:04.523 --> 00:00:07.367
 this guideline has been produced by a certain sector,

7
00:00:07.445 --> 00:00:08.750
 so there's a certain sector bias.

8
00:00:09.188 --> 00:00:10.273
 It's these guys saying this,

9
00:00:10.406 --> 00:00:10.609
 right?

10
00:00:10.688 --> 00:00:10.992
 Or it's,

11
00:00:11.570 --> 00:00:12.852
 if the industry comes up with something,

12
00:00:12.875 --> 00:00:12.992
 it's,

13
00:00:13.070 --> 00:00:13.234
 oh,

14
00:00:13.352 --> 00:00:15.516
 it's the industry that wants to get the output,

15
00:00:15.517 --> 00:00:15.719
 you know?

16
00:00:16.062 --> 00:00:16.172
 So,

17
00:00:16.438 --> 00:00:16.672
 you know,

18
00:00:16.969 --> 00:00:17.156
 there's,

19
00:00:17.219 --> 00:00:17.422
 again,

20
00:00:17.453 --> 00:00:18.453
 this kind of gap between,

21
00:00:18.454 --> 00:00:18.859
 for example,

22
00:00:18.875 --> 00:00:21.266
 the citizens and the ones that want to build the project,

23
00:00:21.344 --> 00:00:21.500
 right?

24
00:00:21.547 --> 00:00:22.562
 Because there is this bias.

25
00:00:23.016 --> 00:00:23.969
 And now for the first time,

26
00:00:23.970 --> 00:00:28.344
 we have a document and a checklist and whatever that takes the bias out of the conversation.

27
00:00:28.652 --> 00:00:29.452
 So if a mayor,

28
00:00:29.492 --> 00:00:29.992
 for example,

29
00:00:30.012 --> 00:00:33.494
 would use this kind of this checklist to talk to the local citizens,

30
00:00:33.495 --> 00:00:33.931
 for example,

31
00:00:33.932 --> 00:00:35.033
 about a future project,

32
00:00:35.513 --> 00:00:37.814
 and they would kind of go through these principles,

33
00:00:37.892 --> 00:00:38.111
 right,

34
00:00:38.112 --> 00:00:43.197
 in this checklist to kind of assess whether the developer or the local community or even the local government,

35
00:00:43.377 --> 00:00:44.619
 if it's initiating its own project,

36
00:00:45.275 --> 00:00:46.103
 wants to do a project.

37
00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:46.822
 And somebody says,

38
00:00:46.853 --> 00:00:47.056
 well,

39
00:00:47.135 --> 00:00:48.041
 but isn't this just,

40
00:00:48.072 --> 00:00:48.838
 is there a bias there?

41
00:00:48.839 --> 00:00:49.181
 They can say,

42
00:00:49.244 --> 00:00:49.353
 no,

43
00:00:49.619 --> 00:00:50.650
 there is no bias.

44
00:00:51.103 --> 00:00:51.853
 Everybody agrees.

45
00:00:52.353 --> 00:00:52.963
 Dear developer,

46
00:00:53.041 --> 00:00:55.275
 do you know that your sector association has endorsed this?

47
00:00:55.892 --> 00:00:56.833
 Dear civil society,

48
00:00:56.892 --> 00:00:57.392
 are you aware?

49
00:00:57.493 --> 00:00:58.372
 And dear energy communities,

50
00:00:58.373 --> 00:00:58.794
 are you aware?

51
00:00:59.053 --> 00:01:01.932
 So you have this kind of common checks and balance system that is in place,

52
00:01:01.933 --> 00:01:02.733
 and that is novel.

53
00:01:02.835 --> 00:01:03.573
 You never had that.

54
00:01:04.174 --> 00:01:05.034
 And locally,

55
00:01:05.073 --> 00:01:06.878
 when you go to these citizens assemblies or whatever,

56
00:01:06.932 --> 00:01:07.112
 right,

57
00:01:07.135 --> 00:01:09.237
 and you see all these different kinds of questions and concerns,

58
00:01:09.659 --> 00:01:12.159
 so much of this comes down to perceived bias.

59
00:01:16.190 --> 00:01:17.737
The energy transition is happening,

60
00:01:17.971 --> 00:01:18.924
 but is it fair?

61
00:01:19.503 --> 00:01:23.971
 Is it working for people like you and me or just for big market players?

62
00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:26.100
 Welcome to Energetic.

63
00:01:26.360 --> 00:01:27.241
 I am Mayim Cornelis,

64
00:01:27.340 --> 00:01:29.379
 an expert in energy and climate policies,

65
00:01:29.719 --> 00:01:32.641
 and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future.

66
00:01:33.403 --> 00:01:33.840
 Activists,

67
00:01:33.864 --> 00:01:34.465
 scientists,

68
00:01:34.559 --> 00:01:35.325
 policymakers,

69
00:01:35.684 --> 00:01:37.700
 the real people making real change,

70
00:01:38.286 --> 00:01:39.661
 often against the odds.

71
00:01:40.622 --> 00:01:40.926
 Here,

72
00:01:41.145 --> 00:01:43.364
 we do not settle for surface-level takes.

73
00:01:43.817 --> 00:01:45.239
 We dig into the challenges,

74
00:01:45.411 --> 00:01:46.207
 the solutions,

75
00:01:46.348 --> 00:01:49.645
 and the lessons that do not always make the headlines.

76
00:01:50.348 --> 00:01:51.098
 And in doing so,

77
00:01:51.598 --> 00:01:53.614
 we rediscover something vital.

78
00:01:54.028 --> 00:01:56.249
 our ability to trust in institutions,

79
00:01:56.409 --> 00:01:57.392
 to believe in change,

80
00:01:57.691 --> 00:02:00.316
 and to reclaim our power to act.

81
00:02:00.773 --> 00:02:02.593
 Because if we want just resilience,

82
00:02:02.898 --> 00:02:04.241
 if we want just transition,

83
00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:07.523
 we need to understand what it takes to make it happen.

84
00:02:08.101 --> 00:02:08.921
 And more importantly,

85
00:02:09.366 --> 00:02:11.218
 we need to believe that we can.

86
00:02:11.968 --> 00:02:12.812
 Let's get into it.

87
00:02:14.702 --> 00:02:19.327
 What if speed in the energy transition wasn't about removing friction?

88
00:02:19.999 --> 00:02:21.109
 In this new episode,

89
00:02:21.234 --> 00:02:23.093
 I speak with Arthur Hinch of ICLEI.

90
00:02:23.444 --> 00:02:25.025
 the local government for sustainability,

91
00:02:25.504 --> 00:02:30.084
 who helped steer one of the most unexpected alignments in European energy,

92
00:02:30.666 --> 00:02:33.729
 the Fast and Fair Renewables and Grids Initiative.

93
00:02:34.447 --> 00:02:41.908
 With solar and wind projects facing delays of up to five years due to local resistance and permitting hurdles,

94
00:02:42.408 --> 00:02:45.408
 this initiative aims to answer pressing questions.

95
00:02:45.893 --> 00:02:51.377
 How do we move faster without cutting corners on democracy or fairness?

96
00:02:52.032 --> 00:02:56.037
 And the result is a shared blueprint endorsed by industry giants,

97
00:02:56.198 --> 00:02:57.338
 grassroots corporatives,

98
00:02:57.498 --> 00:02:58.580
 environmental NGOs,

99
00:02:58.979 --> 00:03:00.104
 local authorities,

100
00:03:00.377 --> 00:03:02.002
 and youth network alike.

101
00:03:02.799 --> 00:03:06.869
 They agreed on five principles to scale up renewables with local people,

102
00:03:07.205 --> 00:03:08.244
 not despite them.

103
00:03:08.885 --> 00:03:11.104
 Arthur takes us behind the scenes,

104
00:03:11.416 --> 00:03:12.948
 into the long meetings,

105
00:03:13.057 --> 00:03:14.916
 the slow consensus building,

106
00:03:15.119 --> 00:03:19.338
 the in-between spaces where decisions really take shape.

107
00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:22.001
 So Arthur,

108
00:03:22.221 --> 00:03:23.022
 welcome to the show.

109
00:03:24.082 --> 00:03:24.582
Hello Marina,

110
00:03:24.742 --> 00:03:25.426
 good to be here.

111
00:03:26.485 --> 00:03:26.746
Arthur,

112
00:03:27.324 --> 00:03:28.727
 your background is quite unique.

113
00:03:28.766 --> 00:03:31.793
 I learned about it only a few weeks ago when we started preparing.

114
00:03:32.309 --> 00:03:36.457
 You first studied Japanology and then moved to urban studies and energy policy.

115
00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:39.356
 What connects these dots for you?

116
00:03:40.762 --> 00:03:40.918
Yeah,

117
00:03:41.043 --> 00:03:43.481
 that's a question I get asked quite a lot actually.

118
00:03:43.606 --> 00:03:45.746
 So it's a fairly logical question.

119
00:03:46.137 --> 00:03:47.278
 So it's really my background.

120
00:03:47.824 --> 00:03:49.715
 I've been extremely fascinated.

121
00:03:49.852 --> 00:04:14.136
 by everything japanese culture since i was a child basically so for me it was always a given that i would enter university and study japanese or japanese studies which i did at the university of leiden in the netherlands but also due to kind of my family background and you know my dad's position as a solar researcher and an energy field i always had kind of interest in energy topics and then

122
00:04:14.448 --> 00:04:14.573
 i

123
00:04:15.392 --> 00:04:16.173
 In addition to that,

124
00:04:16.253 --> 00:04:18.136
 I did a baccalaureate,

125
00:04:18.137 --> 00:04:21.437
 a European baccalaureate at the European School of Bergen in the Netherlands.

126
00:04:21.878 --> 00:04:24.300
 So I have these are the three worlds,

127
00:04:24.362 --> 00:04:24.761
 basically,

128
00:04:25.284 --> 00:04:28.464
 and they connected at different moments in my life,

129
00:04:28.487 --> 00:04:28.823
 I think.

130
00:04:29.870 --> 00:04:29.987
 So

131
00:04:31.636 --> 00:04:35.167
 I always had an interest in energy policy,

132
00:04:35.370 --> 00:04:36.058
 energy in general,

133
00:04:36.059 --> 00:04:37.214
 but also sustainability.

134
00:04:37.526 --> 00:04:41.198
 So I think even though I started with Japanology or Japanese studies,

135
00:04:41.339 --> 00:04:42.511
 I had the opportunity to

136
00:04:43.929 --> 00:04:50.736
 really dive deep into kind of what drives people to engage in sustainability related actions,

137
00:04:51.376 --> 00:04:59.884
 not only in Europe but also in Japan and it's extremely interesting to see kind of parallels there and differences and all of that from both kind of social perspective and political perspective.

138
00:05:00.622 --> 00:05:06.726
 So I kind of entered into the sustainable energy interest already in Japan,

139
00:05:08.109 --> 00:05:09.070
 and then in my master's,

140
00:05:09.171 --> 00:05:13.132
 I was able to do a master's in international relations and also at the University of Leiden,

141
00:05:13.171 --> 00:05:15.078
 so international relations slash European studies.

142
00:05:15.960 --> 00:05:16.117
 Yeah,

143
00:05:16.156 --> 00:05:21.328
 and that's where I really dove into kind of this interface between local governments and the European Union.

144
00:05:21.984 --> 00:05:22.843
 So yeah,

145
00:05:22.968 --> 00:05:23.281
 actually,

146
00:05:23.359 --> 00:05:23.484
 I,

147
00:05:24.265 --> 00:05:24.687
 in the end,

148
00:05:24.703 --> 00:05:27.812
 then spent quite some time with researching,

149
00:05:28.187 --> 00:05:28.703
 you know what

150
00:05:28.758 --> 00:05:29.459
 What impact does

151
00:05:29.919 --> 00:05:33.961
 European energy or environmental policy have on local governments and vice versa also?

152
00:05:34.844 --> 00:05:39.391
 And it's really interesting for me to see and respond to a question of what connects these worlds is,

153
00:05:39.406 --> 00:05:39.688
 you know,

154
00:05:39.867 --> 00:05:42.492
 these facets like culture,

155
00:05:42.875 --> 00:05:45.070
 policy and energy,

156
00:05:45.477 --> 00:05:47.883
 they all play out differently depending on where you are in the world.

157
00:05:47.961 --> 00:05:51.055
 And I find it so extremely fascinating to look at this from a,

158
00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:51.742
 you know,

159
00:05:51.758 --> 00:05:52.305
 kind of uniquely

160
00:05:52.664 --> 00:05:54.602
 Asian perspective as well as the European perspective,

161
00:05:54.695 --> 00:05:54.883
 right?

162
00:05:55.614 --> 00:05:58.056
 So now I work for an international network of local governments,

163
00:05:58.697 --> 00:06:02.603
 which has a presence also in Japan and is headquartered in Germany.

164
00:06:02.701 --> 00:06:03.541
 And I work for the European

165
00:06:03.884 --> 00:06:06.048
 Secretary of Freiburg in Germany,

166
00:06:06.783 --> 00:06:10.009
 kind of being able to bring all of these worlds together in some way or another.

167
00:06:11.048 --> 00:06:11.173
Yeah,

168
00:06:11.228 --> 00:06:17.580
 that's really interesting because you are and you've been working on overlapping worlds in a sense,

169
00:06:17.689 --> 00:06:20.939
 like from local governments to institutions,

170
00:06:20.940 --> 00:06:21.923
 to civil society,

171
00:06:22.017 --> 00:06:22.564
 to Europe,

172
00:06:22.580 --> 00:06:23.501
 to Japan and so on.

173
00:06:24.854 --> 00:06:28.879
 There must be a fascination you have from this kind of in-between spaces,

174
00:06:28.957 --> 00:06:29.199
 right?

175
00:06:29.418 --> 00:06:32.641
 There's probably something that drew you there.

176
00:06:33.059 --> 00:06:33.965
 There's no coincidence,

177
00:06:33.981 --> 00:06:34.145
 right?

178
00:06:34.785 --> 00:06:34.902
No,

179
00:06:34.965 --> 00:06:35.082
 no,

180
00:06:35.184 --> 00:06:35.645
 for sure.

181
00:06:35.707 --> 00:06:35.942
 I mean,

182
00:06:36.207 --> 00:06:39.270
 I was always very interested in kind of the variety that this offers,

183
00:06:39.527 --> 00:06:39.770
 right?

184
00:06:39.910 --> 00:06:43.613
 And that's one of the unique selling points and the big purpose of working at ICLEI,

185
00:06:44.192 --> 00:06:44.567
 I think,

186
00:06:44.613 --> 00:06:48.879
 is that you're able to kind of connect the worlds of the very practical worlds of,

187
00:06:48.880 --> 00:06:49.051
 you know,

188
00:06:49.098 --> 00:06:49.738
 people actually,

189
00:06:49.863 --> 00:06:50.098
 you know,

190
00:06:50.145 --> 00:06:54.035
 being responsible and delivering concrete action and being kind of held responsible to the citizens.

191
00:06:54.954 --> 00:07:15.147
 and connecting that very practical world to the more kind of often high-level policy world of how europe functions how european policy is made and i i get a lot of kind of satisfaction of being able to kind of move between these worlds i think um it's also kind of from a professional point of view quite refreshing you know and once on sunday you'll be talking to two local mayors and you

192
00:07:15.148 --> 00:07:23.803
 know they have their very specific local challenges and and solutions and some the other day you will be talking to the european commission or you can get the regions or you know and having

193
00:07:24.278 --> 00:07:43.522
 very high level conversations but then you know those conversations having an impact on again people on the ground right and i think that's so important also going forward so that's what i find very attractive uh and also from a more personal point of view i mean i work in freiburg uh for those that don't know freiburg and brusco is a municipality

194
00:07:43.584 --> 00:07:50.881
 of around 250 000 people in the south very south of germany close to basel close to um france and switzerland actually

195
00:07:51.966 --> 00:07:52.987
 And it's my hometown.

196
00:07:53.267 --> 00:07:55.889
 So I was born here in Freiburg.

197
00:07:56.752 --> 00:07:56.990
 You know,

198
00:07:57.029 --> 00:08:00.576
 it has kind of internationally known,

199
00:08:00.577 --> 00:08:00.771
 you know,

200
00:08:00.772 --> 00:08:01.857
 as this kind of green city,

201
00:08:02.014 --> 00:08:02.256
 you know,

202
00:08:02.334 --> 00:08:06.178
 kind of one of the pioneers in the kind of local deployment of solar energy.

203
00:08:07.224 --> 00:08:09.201
 and when I studied actually.

204
00:08:09.545 --> 00:08:10.482
 I studied in the Netherlands,

205
00:08:10.607 --> 00:08:11.201
 even though I'm German,

206
00:08:11.248 --> 00:08:12.967
 I studied actually my entire studies in the Netherlands,

207
00:08:13.060 --> 00:08:17.748
 but I always kind of had this connection to my hometown and then I got into energy policy and I found out,

208
00:08:17.795 --> 00:08:17.904
 oh,

209
00:08:17.935 --> 00:08:18.092
 well,

210
00:08:18.748 --> 00:08:20.529
 internationally people talk about Freiburg,

211
00:08:20.576 --> 00:08:21.029
 my hometown,

212
00:08:21.060 --> 00:08:21.560
 as a kind of...

213
00:08:22.290 --> 00:08:37.747
 city that you know you should look into when you're interested in this topic and yeah then i sprint yeah a blueprint exactly and then i really started to identifying with this concept and and um yeah that's why i ended up doing what i'm doing i think yeah i

214
00:08:37.748 --> 00:08:49.192
think in a way we don't realize how much our upbringing shape our experience and then our understanding of the world as well because i mean now you work in between let's say uh different stakeholders

215
00:08:49.730 --> 00:08:50.971
 which is also something that I do,

216
00:08:51.332 --> 00:08:53.593
 and you work between cultures and countries.

217
00:08:54.095 --> 00:08:56.478
 It's really fascinating sometimes to make a step back and see,

218
00:08:56.498 --> 00:08:56.658
 yeah,

219
00:08:56.818 --> 00:08:57.056
 indeed,

220
00:08:57.076 --> 00:08:58.080
 there is no coincidence.

221
00:08:58.220 --> 00:08:59.837
 And some of us,

222
00:09:00.119 --> 00:09:00.642
 I would say,

223
00:09:00.884 --> 00:09:04.587
 were managing to connect some dots at different levels.

224
00:09:04.822 --> 00:09:06.962
 We probably don't see them when they happen,

225
00:09:07.509 --> 00:09:09.275
 but then we are like,

226
00:09:09.447 --> 00:09:09.603
 ah,

227
00:09:09.994 --> 00:09:10.134
 yeah,

228
00:09:10.291 --> 00:09:10.728
 of course,

229
00:09:10.837 --> 00:09:11.744
 of course it happens.

230
00:09:11.806 --> 00:09:12.025
 I mean,

231
00:09:12.337 --> 00:09:13.791
 the experience you just shared with the

232
00:09:14.354 --> 00:09:16.597
 like being able to discuss with different levels.

233
00:09:16.776 --> 00:09:20.962
 I remember having it a long time ago when I was in Brussels with the energy ombudsman.

234
00:09:20.981 --> 00:09:22.763
 I was handling complaints in the morning.

235
00:09:23.185 --> 00:09:23.981
 And then in the afternoon,

236
00:09:24.021 --> 00:09:27.989
 I was at the European Commission and there were completely different jobs,

237
00:09:28.005 --> 00:09:29.169
 but they were indispensable,

238
00:09:29.247 --> 00:09:29.411
 right?

239
00:09:29.669 --> 00:09:31.013
 Because it's really in this kind of,

240
00:09:31.466 --> 00:09:35.231
 in working through these frictions that you actually get some best result.

241
00:09:35.981 --> 00:09:37.810
 And that leads us to the

242
00:09:38.185 --> 00:09:40.778
 Fast and Fair Renewables and Grids Initiative,

243
00:09:41.419 --> 00:09:43.575
 which was months in the making.

244
00:09:44.098 --> 00:09:44.378
 And I mean,

245
00:09:44.979 --> 00:09:45.860
 I've heard about it.

246
00:09:46.299 --> 00:09:49.342
 I know it sounds really groundbreaking and really interesting.

247
00:09:49.385 --> 00:09:50.225
 There's an event,

248
00:09:50.264 --> 00:09:50.502
 I think,

249
00:09:50.503 --> 00:09:54.331
 at the end of September 2025 in Brussels.

250
00:09:54.932 --> 00:09:55.127
 But

251
00:09:55.651 --> 00:10:03.049
 I'm really interested in understanding if there was any kind of spark to start with or...

252
00:10:04.091 --> 00:10:24.172
some gaps that you have been identifying and what they were i mean was it coming from this kind of let's say very empirical and observation that there was gaps well yes to answer the question shortly i mean this is exactly it um there is gaps i mean gaps in the sense where there's

253
00:10:24.943 --> 00:10:44.363
 challenges in the sense that you know projects are um accelerating i mean we see more projects around europe which is nice but we don't see them still at the speed that is required and often i mean not only and there's different reasons why projects kind of get delayed and you know different different reasons you know lack of staff and permitting authorities

254
00:10:44.426 --> 00:10:54.285
 lack of digitalization what have you you know but a significant fact is actually the the kind of local acceptance and the local engagement of local citizens with real energy and grid infrastructure

255
00:10:54.611 --> 00:11:11.592
 electricity grid infrastructure and what you see in practice is that of course you know the majority of europeans you know tends to be in favor of more renewables and more wind more solar but actually when it comes down to local projects the situation is not always as easy and quite regularly you know the

256
00:11:11.593 --> 00:11:19.514
 majority of local people might be in favor of the project locally but then some will not and they have their own reasons they might be very vocal about it for their own reasons

257
00:11:20.515 --> 00:11:39.415
 so there certainly is a gap right i mean the gap is simply that the local level different stakeholders i suppose you know be the citizens or local environmental groups or local cooperatives so local developers or local investors they often don't agree yeah so this is this is it or they they don't agree or they

258
00:11:39.446 --> 00:11:47.227
 have different let's say intrinsic motivations sometimes or often what they want to get out of the project and this is not due to

259
00:11:47.843 --> 00:12:04.415
 any form of kind of malice or anything this is simply because how the energy system works right if you're the developer you want to get a profit out of your project if you want because you have a need to maintain a profit margin right if in a business and if you're the investor you want to get a return on your investment and if you're the land owner who

260
00:12:04.477 --> 00:12:16.024
 might be from the community but also might be third generation no longer living in the community you want a land lease payment if you're the environmental group you want to protect nature if you're the energy cooperative you might I'd want to have a direct...

261
00:12:16.507 --> 00:12:17.249
 participation,

262
00:12:17.409 --> 00:12:20.192
 local ownership of the new renewable energy installation.

263
00:12:20.950 --> 00:12:24.055
 Citizens have their own reasons potentially concerned.

264
00:12:24.114 --> 00:12:25.856
 Some of them are also very enthusiastic about it.

265
00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.723
 Then you have the local government and the majority of,

266
00:12:29.739 --> 00:12:30.059
 let's say,

267
00:12:30.520 --> 00:12:34.223
 large-scale renewable energy installations are deployed in rural areas.

268
00:12:35.098 --> 00:12:35.786
 Same goes for grids,

269
00:12:35.801 --> 00:12:36.208
 I suppose.

270
00:12:36.911 --> 00:12:37.489
 Transmission grids.

271
00:12:39.676 --> 00:12:41.208
 What you then see is often

272
00:12:41.823 --> 00:12:49.245
 that the local government has an interest in the project because they want to meet their own energy climate targets,

273
00:12:49.827 --> 00:12:52.882
 they want to have some value from the project locally.

274
00:12:54.007 --> 00:13:01.085
 But often the mayor then or other local government staff or persons are in the position that they have to mediate between these interests.

275
00:13:01.491 --> 00:13:02.913
 Simply that's often the fact of the matter,

276
00:13:02.944 --> 00:13:05.569
 that's how the dynamics often play out in rural communities.

277
00:13:06.366 --> 00:13:07.444
 And that is not an easy thing to do.

278
00:13:07.851 --> 00:13:10.614
 Like if you imagine like you're a rural mayor in a small municipality,

279
00:13:10.995 --> 00:13:13.356
 in particular a member state,

280
00:13:13.536 --> 00:13:14.700
 we looked into a couple actually,

281
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:17.083
 the situation is often that,

282
00:13:17.122 --> 00:13:17.403
 you know,

283
00:13:17.497 --> 00:13:21.864
 you're a voluntary mayor and you have a ton of things in your portfolio that you need to take care of.

284
00:13:21.926 --> 00:13:24.840
 And then the deployment of an additional wind park is an additional thing.

285
00:13:25.575 --> 00:13:27.028
 And you often either have the staff,

286
00:13:27.153 --> 00:13:27.997
 the technical capacity,

287
00:13:27.998 --> 00:13:28.184
 you know,

288
00:13:28.185 --> 00:13:30.700
 the finances to kind of really look into this,

289
00:13:30.793 --> 00:13:30.997
 right,

290
00:13:31.106 --> 00:13:32.090
 or actually mediate.

291
00:13:32.122 --> 00:13:35.356
 But what you then often see is projects that are actually

292
00:13:36.179 --> 00:13:59.362
 accepted and where the local enthusiasm that is often correlated or happens at the same time as there being a lot of trust in the local mayor for example right so they usually see this important position of the local mayor or the local government in kind of mediating between different interests at the local level so that the project does not escalate everything comes together harmoniously and you really have examples of that and

293
00:13:59.378 --> 00:14:02.237
 that results in the projects not being delayed

294
00:14:02.379 --> 00:14:07.566
 because they don't end up in court and the court doesn't have to step in and rule what is fair.

295
00:14:08.026 --> 00:14:08.323
 Instead,

296
00:14:08.386 --> 00:14:11.269
 fairness is agreed beforehand between all the parties.

297
00:14:12.206 --> 00:14:13.831
 So that's the fundamental problem.

298
00:14:14.769 --> 00:14:16.612
 And we then thought,

299
00:14:16.816 --> 00:14:21.339
 because we've been working as ICLEI in this field for a long time together with the other stakeholders that have endorsed the initiative,

300
00:14:21.901 --> 00:14:23.198
 but we initially from our side,

301
00:14:23.199 --> 00:14:23.526
 we thought,

302
00:14:23.558 --> 00:14:23.776
 okay,

303
00:14:23.823 --> 00:14:25.386
 we represent local governments.

304
00:14:25.980 --> 00:14:26.917
 We see that there is an issue.

305
00:14:27.058 --> 00:14:28.183
 This is one of the the key issues.

306
00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:29.886
 One of the key issues is,

307
00:14:29.933 --> 00:14:30.386
 as I said,

308
00:14:30.589 --> 00:14:30.933
 low call.

309
00:14:31.247 --> 00:14:33.669
 conflicts and differences in opinions.

310
00:14:34.089 --> 00:14:39.276
 But how about we get all these stakeholders together at a higher level and we agree at a high level once and for all,

311
00:14:39.651 --> 00:14:42.378
 what does it actually mean to deploy a project fast but fairly?

312
00:14:43.097 --> 00:14:48.105
 And then with the idea of trickling that down to the local levels and how we do that in practice is something we can talk about,

313
00:14:48.183 --> 00:14:48.480
 of course,

314
00:14:48.526 --> 00:14:49.339
 later in this conversation.

315
00:14:49.948 --> 00:14:50.089
Yeah,

316
00:14:50.151 --> 00:14:52.745
 that's really interesting because a few episodes ago,

317
00:14:53.355 --> 00:14:55.886
 I had Cédric Aran of CanEurope,

318
00:14:56.214 --> 00:14:58.261
 talking exactly about what really...

319
00:14:58.778 --> 00:15:16.615
 just transition means and a few episodes ago i also had a researcher a junior in bangalore who works exactly on this kind of rhizome project rhizome understanding so almost a philosophical understanding that we are not alone when we take a decision we are all connected at different levels and

320
00:15:16.819 --> 00:15:23.615
 the way we make our decisions we take our decisions is actually shaped by the surroundings that we have.

321
00:15:23.819 --> 00:15:24.537
 And right now,

322
00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:25.647
 you just did the line that,

323
00:15:26.022 --> 00:15:26.522
 for instance,

324
00:15:26.740 --> 00:15:27.350
 mirrors.

325
00:15:27.658 --> 00:15:30.701
 may be under a lot of strains.

326
00:15:31.082 --> 00:15:33.603
 There may not be enough capacity at their local level.

327
00:15:33.705 --> 00:15:34.787
 Maybe they don't understand.

328
00:15:34.846 --> 00:15:42.670
 Maybe they don't see why something happens in their municipality and not in the other one.

329
00:15:43.217 --> 00:15:47.639
 So they hear things like windmills are ugly or things like that.

330
00:15:48.014 --> 00:15:49.967
 And they get also influenced by that.

331
00:15:50.014 --> 00:15:50.623
 And of course,

332
00:15:50.624 --> 00:15:52.810
 they want to please their constituents.

333
00:15:52.811 --> 00:15:56.060
 So they have this very important role as you

334
00:15:56.318 --> 00:16:15.374
 mediator but first and foremost they need to be convinced of the importance of let's say uh the project to to happen and for that they also need their viewpoint to be heard right because disagreeing is actually very important to find a consensus at the end of the day right you

335
00:16:15.421 --> 00:16:24.202
 need to to be expressed to your frustration first otherwise it breaks down at a later stage perhaps yes

336
00:16:24.470 --> 00:16:24.670
Well,

337
00:16:25.972 --> 00:16:26.191
 I mean,

338
00:16:26.392 --> 00:16:26.873
 in the end,

339
00:16:26.892 --> 00:16:27.133
 I mean,

340
00:16:27.433 --> 00:16:31.637
 what I've seen locally is that it comes down to very kind of human reasons,

341
00:16:31.797 --> 00:16:32.199
 ultimately,

342
00:16:32.316 --> 00:16:32.496
 right?

343
00:16:32.535 --> 00:16:32.840
 Because,

344
00:16:33.597 --> 00:16:33.840
 you know,

345
00:16:34.222 --> 00:16:37.801
 the people want a project and in an ideal scenario,

346
00:16:37.926 --> 00:16:41.832
 they all kind of get along and they all collectively see a value,

347
00:16:42.004 --> 00:16:42.222
 right?

348
00:16:42.363 --> 00:16:42.488
 So,

349
00:16:42.832 --> 00:16:43.722
 and the question is,

350
00:16:43.723 --> 00:16:44.191
 of course,

351
00:16:44.285 --> 00:16:44.535
 you know,

352
00:16:44.597 --> 00:16:49.191
 how do you deliver added value of a particular project to a local community in a way that is kind of...

353
00:16:49.902 --> 00:16:51.124
 satisfactory to the local community,

354
00:16:51.183 --> 00:16:55.067
 but also in a way that is then of course complying with national regulations and all of that.

355
00:16:55.509 --> 00:17:03.032
 So that's a bit of this interface between this high dynamic situation between humans and different ideas and maybe also emotions.

356
00:17:03.033 --> 00:17:03.594
 And on the other hand,

357
00:17:03.719 --> 00:17:09.985
 the question of how does all of that fit within the reality for spatial planning procedures and permitting regulations and all of that.

358
00:17:09.986 --> 00:17:11.048
 And that's where it becomes tricky.

359
00:17:11.704 --> 00:17:19.407
 And that's exactly the interface that I think this Fast and Fair Renewable Grids Initiative that we now have launched actually is trying to to

360
00:17:19.682 --> 00:17:35.259
 come in right and kind of bridge that bridge that gap and yeah indeed i am aware that you talked to say that can europe um actually so we uh talking quite regularly within the context of initiative and um yeah the the initial idea was also certainly to have kind of a close you

361
00:17:35.260 --> 00:17:44.267
 know collaborations between local government and civil society uh within the context of all of this and so indeed so i'm quite happy that can europe of course is one of the organizations that

362
00:17:44.934 --> 00:17:52.295
 that represents civil society and organizations battling dangerous climate change in the Fast and Fair initiative,

363
00:17:52.377 --> 00:17:53.096
 which is quite important.

364
00:17:53.635 --> 00:17:58.737
You've been saying that the Fast and Fair initiative is a very social,

365
00:17:58.854 --> 00:18:00.479
 very human project.

366
00:18:01.010 --> 00:18:02.745
 What do you mean by that?

367
00:18:03.245 --> 00:18:06.338
 I really think that a lot of parties,

368
00:18:06.838 --> 00:18:07.463
 stakeholders,

369
00:18:07.682 --> 00:18:08.776
 whatever that means,

370
00:18:09.026 --> 00:18:11.338
 are kind of afraid of,

371
00:18:11.667 --> 00:18:11.901
 you know,

372
00:18:12.104 --> 00:18:14.167
 the challenges that it represents to.

373
00:18:15.062 --> 00:18:39.026
build this consensus but you said it's very social it's very human so how did that happen yeah did you move forward yeah exactly i mean in very practical terms i mean it's it's a social project because it's a it's an initiative that tries to solve a social problem which is local conflicts due to the decelerated deployment of renewables and grids with

374
00:18:39.027 --> 00:18:42.932
 a social approach by you know getting different organizations

375
00:18:43.378 --> 00:18:45.060
 who are of course represented by different people,

376
00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:47.322
 to agree on a baseline,

377
00:18:47.381 --> 00:18:48.162
 on a consensus.

378
00:18:48.564 --> 00:18:50.904
 And that is simply a social approach.

379
00:18:51.205 --> 00:18:51.767
 So in the end,

380
00:18:52.845 --> 00:18:53.931
 in very practical terms,

381
00:18:54.291 --> 00:18:55.252
 how did this play out?

382
00:18:55.970 --> 00:18:56.408
 Originally,

383
00:18:56.431 --> 00:18:58.049
 when we had this idea,

384
00:18:58.994 --> 00:19:05.314
 we started reaching out to the organizations that have now actually endorsed the principles,

385
00:19:06.377 --> 00:19:08.627
 with just the distance to just have a chat.

386
00:19:09.122 --> 00:19:28.826
 yeah let's just talk about it yeah and the the advantage of course is they knew they knew us i mean they knew eclair europe right many of the organizations they are regularly in touch already it's not like the end all things they are not talking at all to each other that would be very far from the truth the fact is just they have not yet agreed on a cross-sectoral baseline on fairness yeah so that's the novelty here but

387
00:19:28.841 --> 00:19:38.029
 yeah in reality we just invited all the stakeholders to chats to explain the the idea and i think the crucial part here was to really explain that

388
00:19:38.610 --> 00:19:57.894
 you know we're doing this for the common good we're doing it and to have a win-win situation for everyone right so and this is important to understand i think all the stakeholders came into this commented this with the kind of expectation that they're kind of contributing to the formation of this of these principles and this initiative in the long run but

389
00:19:57.895 --> 00:20:02.550
 at the same time you know everybody gets something out of it right because you know from the developer's point of view

390
00:20:03.300 --> 00:20:07.666
 The win-win situation is that if these principles are adhered to,

391
00:20:07.783 --> 00:20:08.685
 not only by the developers,

392
00:20:08.744 --> 00:20:09.006
 obviously,

393
00:20:09.045 --> 00:20:14.013
 but also the other stakeholders in the sectors are equally responsible in upholding these principles.

394
00:20:14.615 --> 00:20:16.115
 If everybody sticks to these principles,

395
00:20:16.170 --> 00:20:17.873
 then projects don't ever end up in court,

396
00:20:18.318 --> 00:20:21.599
 at least not for the reason of acceptance problems.

397
00:20:22.756 --> 00:20:25.506
 So that's a huge win from the industry side.

398
00:20:26.146 --> 00:20:26.490
 And then,

399
00:20:26.568 --> 00:20:27.021
 of course,

400
00:20:27.584 --> 00:20:28.099
 from the,

401
00:20:28.209 --> 00:20:28.631
 for example,

402
00:20:28.662 --> 00:20:29.849
 environmental organizations,

403
00:20:30.021 --> 00:20:32.006
 there's emphasis on...

404
00:20:32.764 --> 00:20:34.065
 upholding the mitigation hierarchy,

405
00:20:34.145 --> 00:20:34.766
 for example,

406
00:20:35.307 --> 00:20:40.133
 and the deployment of measures to compensate the impact of infrastructure,

407
00:20:40.134 --> 00:20:40.594
 for example,

408
00:20:40.613 --> 00:20:41.391
 from a nature point of view.

409
00:20:41.734 --> 00:20:43.016
 That is in the text.

410
00:20:43.476 --> 00:20:43.797
 Of course,

411
00:20:43.798 --> 00:20:45.133
 from the environmental organizations,

412
00:20:45.453 --> 00:20:46.601
 that's a big win for them.

413
00:20:48.945 --> 00:20:51.695
 Equally for the energy cooperatives and energy communities in the mix,

414
00:20:52.242 --> 00:20:54.680
 we have a clear principle that now says everybody,

415
00:20:54.789 --> 00:20:56.664
 regardless of whether you're a big,

416
00:20:56.742 --> 00:20:57.570
 small developer,

417
00:20:57.773 --> 00:20:59.133
 corporate or a non-profit

418
00:20:59.772 --> 00:21:04.156
 all agree on the importance of renewable energy communities and citizen-led and co-owned installations.

419
00:21:04.797 --> 00:21:05.636
 That's the novelty here.

420
00:21:06.320 --> 00:21:08.558
 And arriving at that point is very social,

421
00:21:09.058 --> 00:21:17.668
 because everybody needs to be actually conscious and aware or needs to feel from the very beginning that this has a chance of succeeding.

422
00:21:17.949 --> 00:21:19.715
 But really from the perspective of,

423
00:21:20.340 --> 00:21:20.574
 you know,

424
00:21:21.090 --> 00:21:22.840
 there's really benefit for us to do this,

425
00:21:22.933 --> 00:21:24.652
 because this is not a

426
00:21:25.183 --> 00:21:26.543
 European project in the sense that,

427
00:21:26.574 --> 00:21:26.840
 you know,

428
00:21:27.540 --> 00:21:28.981
 We're not a consortium of like,

429
00:21:28.982 --> 00:21:29.161
 you know,

430
00:21:29.202 --> 00:21:30.663
 10 partners that are paid for this.

431
00:21:30.784 --> 00:21:30.944
 It's,

432
00:21:31.624 --> 00:21:31.905
 you know,

433
00:21:32.003 --> 00:21:32.644
 that's not the case.

434
00:21:33.026 --> 00:21:35.507
 So it's just everybody's in this because of NextSend for everyone.

435
00:21:36.312 --> 00:21:36.468
Well,

436
00:21:36.530 --> 00:21:44.116
 there's a moment when you felt that there was a very different interest at stake.

437
00:21:44.429 --> 00:21:45.741
 And maybe,

438
00:21:46.132 --> 00:21:46.382
 you know,

439
00:21:46.444 --> 00:21:52.601
 just putting people around the table wouldn't work out that successfully.

440
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:55.241
yes

441
00:21:55.788 --> 00:21:57.116
 I mean in the sense that that's

442
00:21:57.864 --> 00:21:58.124
 That's,

443
00:21:58.204 --> 00:21:58.545
 I think,

444
00:21:58.645 --> 00:22:02.670
 a normal process of trying to build consensus in a heated topic.

445
00:22:02.889 --> 00:22:03.690
 Yeah.

446
00:22:03.691 --> 00:22:03.952
 I mean,

447
00:22:03.953 --> 00:22:05.889
 when you're trying to set out and say,

448
00:22:06.030 --> 00:22:06.233
 okay,

449
00:22:06.295 --> 00:22:10.077
 let's jointly identify across the sector what fairness means,

450
00:22:10.397 --> 00:22:10.678
 you know,

451
00:22:11.514 --> 00:22:12.475
 initial reactions were,

452
00:22:13.483 --> 00:22:13.702
 okay,

453
00:22:14.155 --> 00:22:14.420
 cool.

454
00:22:14.561 --> 00:22:16.702
 But isn't that ambitious?

455
00:22:16.748 --> 00:22:16.998
 You know,

456
00:22:17.045 --> 00:22:17.327
 it's like,

457
00:22:17.342 --> 00:22:17.483
 yeah,

458
00:22:17.498 --> 00:22:17.702
 sure,

459
00:22:17.703 --> 00:22:18.202
 it's ambitious.

460
00:22:18.264 --> 00:22:18.405
 But,

461
00:22:18.406 --> 00:22:18.608
 you know,

462
00:22:18.609 --> 00:22:19.139
 if we don't do it,

463
00:22:19.327 --> 00:22:20.967
 if we don't try it and never achieve.

464
00:22:21.905 --> 00:22:22.030
 So,

465
00:22:23.030 --> 00:22:23.202
 yeah,

466
00:22:23.264 --> 00:22:24.717
 there's certainly been this amount of moments.

467
00:22:24.764 --> 00:22:25.092
 I think

468
00:22:25.889 --> 00:22:26.233
 I won't

469
00:22:26.524 --> 00:22:43.547
 be able to go into like exact you know the content of who and what i think that was kind of between the different stakeholders during the consensus building process it's not necessarily something that that needs to go live but yeah i mean if you look at the principles right i think the readers and listeners will be able to discern

470
00:22:43.625 --> 00:22:54.250
 relatively quickly which of these principles might have been the more tricky ones to kind of get yeah you know for-profit industry and non-profit industry and communities to agree on,

471
00:22:54.391 --> 00:22:54.594
 right?

472
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:56.060
Yeah,

473
00:22:56.140 --> 00:22:56.921
 so let's get into it.

474
00:22:57.122 --> 00:22:58.702
 Let's go into these principles.

475
00:22:59.163 --> 00:23:01.007
 Let's go from tricky to less tricky,

476
00:23:03.147 --> 00:23:03.608
 as you wish.

477
00:23:04.327 --> 00:23:04.452
Yeah,

478
00:23:04.507 --> 00:23:04.772
 fine.

479
00:23:04.773 --> 00:23:05.092
Yeah,

480
00:23:06.647 --> 00:23:08.436
 let's go for what is the trickiest?

481
00:23:08.592 --> 00:23:10.952
 What was the trickiest for you?

482
00:23:11.053 --> 00:23:11.296
 Well,

483
00:23:12.499 --> 00:23:18.717
so I think when you look at kind of existing guidelines and activities that happen around Europe,

484
00:23:18.764 --> 00:23:19.327
 around the,

485
00:23:19.749 --> 00:23:19.983
 you know,

486
00:23:20.030 --> 00:23:24.311
 kind of creating community value or acceptance.

487
00:23:24.760 --> 00:23:27.463
 offering global energy infrastructure and equally electricity grids.

488
00:23:28.063 --> 00:23:30.645
 And you see that there's common reference to certain themes,

489
00:23:30.727 --> 00:23:30.907
 right?

490
00:23:30.908 --> 00:23:33.192
 So the importance of having local projects,

491
00:23:33.426 --> 00:23:34.653
 communities need to have local influence.

492
00:23:35.793 --> 00:23:36.692
 You have a local project,

493
00:23:36.693 --> 00:23:37.934
 but you also need to have local value,

494
00:23:37.973 --> 00:23:38.114
 right?

495
00:23:38.115 --> 00:23:39.739
 So this is not new stuff.

496
00:23:39.754 --> 00:23:40.801
 We see this quite often,

497
00:23:40.879 --> 00:23:41.082
 right?

498
00:23:41.098 --> 00:23:48.223
 You also see quite a lot of reference in terms of the environmental element that needs to be really taken into account thoroughly.

499
00:23:48.364 --> 00:23:50.161
 So that's not so novel.

500
00:23:51.456 --> 00:23:52.517
 The last principle,

501
00:23:52.557 --> 00:23:54.820
 which is on kind of empowering community-led initiatives,

502
00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:57.923
 I think this is where,

503
00:23:57.924 --> 00:23:59.185
 well,

504
00:23:59.186 --> 00:23:59.427
 it's not,

505
00:23:59.521 --> 00:23:59.763
 let's say,

506
00:23:59.787 --> 00:24:03.888
 the easiest to kind of to get everybody on the same page,

507
00:24:03.912 --> 00:24:04.388
 I suppose,

508
00:24:04.412 --> 00:24:05.310
 in terms of how,

509
00:24:05.630 --> 00:24:05.873
 you know,

510
00:24:05.951 --> 00:24:06.107
 this,

511
00:24:06.130 --> 00:24:07.412
 but also other principles could be phrased.

512
00:24:08.349 --> 00:24:08.708
 But again,

513
00:24:08.755 --> 00:24:11.318
 I think this is a fairly technical conversation.

514
00:24:11.380 --> 00:24:11.662
 But again,

515
00:24:11.677 --> 00:24:13.865
 I think it's quite clear when you just look at the sub criteria,

516
00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:14.162
 you know,

517
00:24:15.521 --> 00:24:17.115
 what the difficulty might have been there.

518
00:24:17.865 --> 00:24:19.990
 but to maybe answer it like this

519
00:24:20.396 --> 00:24:26.282
 The situation in Europe up until now was that we had in the Renewable Energy Directive,

520
00:24:26.380 --> 00:24:26.962
 for example,

521
00:24:27.103 --> 00:24:30.364
 certain articles pertaining to the importance of presumerism,

522
00:24:30.724 --> 00:24:32.927
 renewable energy community and collective self-consumption.

523
00:24:33.927 --> 00:24:36.528
 These articles had to be transposed into

524
00:24:36.950 --> 00:24:40.091
 European legislation already for quite a few years.

525
00:24:40.310 --> 00:24:41.138
 And even now,

526
00:24:41.841 --> 00:24:45.747
 the speed and the degree to which that has happened differs significantly between the countries.

527
00:24:46.810 --> 00:24:49.403
 and there's also significant differences

528
00:24:49.632 --> 00:24:54.295
 in terms of how different member states have kind of implemented an enabling framework,

529
00:24:54.338 --> 00:24:54.776
 for example,

530
00:24:54.777 --> 00:24:56.901
 for renewable energy communities and citizen energy communities,

531
00:24:57.018 --> 00:24:57.498
 respectively,

532
00:24:57.541 --> 00:24:57.819
 right?

533
00:24:57.820 --> 00:24:57.983
 Yeah,

534
00:24:58.842 --> 00:24:58.998
yeah.

535
00:24:59.178 --> 00:24:59.584
 In Italy,

536
00:24:59.623 --> 00:25:00.303
 for instance,

537
00:25:00.342 --> 00:25:00.865
 it's very,

538
00:25:00.967 --> 00:25:02.467
 very different from what you see in Belgium.

539
00:25:03.162 --> 00:25:03.545
 And I mean,

540
00:25:03.748 --> 00:25:04.889
 it's very technical,

541
00:25:05.084 --> 00:25:06.811
 very business oriented,

542
00:25:06.889 --> 00:25:07.155
 very,

543
00:25:07.889 --> 00:25:09.092
 it's not that bottom up.

544
00:25:09.358 --> 00:25:09.936
 And actually,

545
00:25:09.937 --> 00:25:10.311
 in Italy,

546
00:25:10.358 --> 00:25:14.061
 they had to invent the social energy community.

547
00:25:14.902 --> 00:25:35.014
to bring back the social into the mix whereas in the directive i mean at first glance it seemed quite obvious that it should have been included but you know it's the devil really lies in the detail for implementation exactly exactly that's it and i think what you also have seen in the past a lot uh and still to some extent is of course that the

548
00:25:35.045 --> 00:25:43.936
 element of renewable energy communities being included in the legislation and the need to create proper enabling frameworks for them used to be primarily promoted by civil society.

549
00:25:44.430 --> 00:25:44.851
 Not only,

550
00:25:45.051 --> 00:25:46.131
 but generally speaking.

551
00:25:47.114 --> 00:25:47.973
 And that's no longer the case.

552
00:25:48.313 --> 00:26:01.563
 So now we have actually an agreement across the control that there needs to be an enabling framework and a level playing field for energy communities and actors with less financial and administrative capacity on the energy market.

553
00:26:02.172 --> 00:26:02.610
 And the fact,

554
00:26:02.672 --> 00:26:02.922
 I think,

555
00:26:02.923 --> 00:26:13.204
 that we now have an agreement on this point between the energy community sector and the civil society and the large solar and wind industry associations is saying a lot.

556
00:26:14.018 --> 00:26:18.619
 And I think that very fact in the future will help a lot when it comes to,

557
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:19.900
 well,

558
00:26:20.318 --> 00:26:23.439
 continuing to pushing further enabling frameworks for renewable energy communities,

559
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:24.080
 for starters.

560
00:26:24.962 --> 00:26:37.041
 But also simply just to encourage or to ask for really more projects to have some kind of component of local direct financial or even ownership participation.

561
00:26:38.041 --> 00:26:42.650
 And the fact that we now have this kind of consensus between the sectors is really quite something.

562
00:26:43.250 --> 00:26:43.691
 And this,

563
00:26:44.232 --> 00:26:45.532
 but also other points,

564
00:26:45.571 --> 00:26:46.173
 I suppose,

565
00:26:46.614 --> 00:26:47.114
 of course,

566
00:26:47.673 --> 00:26:49.575
 that's why this process took six months,

567
00:26:49.677 --> 00:26:52.497
 because different sectors,

568
00:26:52.677 --> 00:26:56.200
 stakeholders go at a document and exercise like this with different motivations.

569
00:26:57.021 --> 00:27:01.193
 Some things could be in the document even more emphasized.

570
00:27:03.427 --> 00:27:05.349
 So this is the fine nuance,

571
00:27:05.350 --> 00:27:05.880
 I suppose.

572
00:27:06.286 --> 00:27:06.708
 And

573
00:27:07.318 --> 00:27:09.396
 I won't go into who said what specifically,

574
00:27:09.458 --> 00:27:11.739
 because that's among the endorsing stakeholders.

575
00:27:11.740 --> 00:27:12.364
 this and but yeah

576
00:27:12.810 --> 00:27:29.558
yeah it's quite clear when you read the document and yeah it's it's not a easy subject in first place yeah yeah i know that's uh that's really important just to like not to start from uh to naive place you know to know that different stakeholders will have different motivation and different

577
00:27:29.949 --> 00:27:41.933
 objectives and maybe some will endorse without second thoughts whereas some other will have to work also.

578
00:27:42.198 --> 00:27:46.082
 kind of internally within their organization to make sure that,

579
00:27:46.223 --> 00:27:46.461
 you know,

580
00:27:46.543 --> 00:27:50.250
 they become the blueprint that it's meant to be.

581
00:27:50.586 --> 00:27:50.844
 And

582
00:27:51.586 --> 00:27:52.070
 I see that,

583
00:27:52.071 --> 00:27:52.328
 you know,

584
00:27:52.672 --> 00:27:55.031
 it's very straightforward probably for,

585
00:27:55.187 --> 00:27:57.031
 let's say,

586
00:27:57.211 --> 00:27:57.711
 NGOs,

587
00:27:57.797 --> 00:28:00.140
 organizations with more social purpose,

588
00:28:00.156 --> 00:28:00.281
 etc.

589
00:28:00.875 --> 00:28:02.390
 But it's probably still,

590
00:28:02.953 --> 00:28:08.078
 there are still some passages that may be still in their discussion from for certain organizations as well,

591
00:28:08.203 --> 00:28:08.469
 like,

592
00:28:08.609 --> 00:28:10.359
 because it's such a high level that

593
00:28:10.762 --> 00:28:11.142
 And again,

594
00:28:11.343 --> 00:28:13.845
 because the devil lies in the detail that,

595
00:28:13.985 --> 00:28:14.225
 you know,

596
00:28:14.286 --> 00:28:15.245
 it's not that easy.

597
00:28:15.264 --> 00:28:19.413
 But I guess that's it's what makes it concrete.

598
00:28:19.530 --> 00:28:28.280
 But what else could make really that initiative so concrete and so grounded that we will see like the results in the years?

599
00:28:28.296 --> 00:28:28.624
 Yes,

600
00:28:28.999 --> 00:28:29.218
yes,

601
00:28:29.280 --> 00:28:29.639
 exactly.

602
00:28:30.186 --> 00:28:32.749
 And so maybe just one remark on the details,

603
00:28:32.764 --> 00:28:32.999
 yeah,

604
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:34.061
 the devil lies in the details.

605
00:28:34.077 --> 00:28:37.796
 I think that's where the initiative and the principles get a lot of credibility from.

606
00:28:37.905 --> 00:28:38.811
 it's not like you know

607
00:28:39.298 --> 00:28:54.518
 a group of organizations just came you know together for a half an hour meeting and then brought up these principles actually that we had these meetings that we had a longer workshop in brussels where we tried to consolidate that and then there were many conversations after so actually we had a launch event and

608
00:28:54.643 --> 00:29:02.886
 until you know just a couple of days or even one day before the launch event it was not clear whether everybody will endorse so it was really kind of a game yeah

609
00:29:03.626 --> 00:29:05.888
 really a bit of a game in that sense,

610
00:29:06.029 --> 00:29:08.191
 ultimately with a very positive outcome,

611
00:29:08.192 --> 00:29:09.433
 but that's how these things go.

612
00:29:10.293 --> 00:29:16.082
 Then in terms of what makes that concrete is the fact that it took quite a long time to negotiate this.

613
00:29:16.199 --> 00:29:21.457
 So basically every word that's in this document has been scrutinized in that sense,

614
00:29:21.488 --> 00:29:25.004
 has been evaluated by the different organizations and their respective members,

615
00:29:26.066 --> 00:29:28.222
 or at least the organizations have consulted the membership,

616
00:29:28.269 --> 00:29:28.425
 right?

617
00:29:29.129 --> 00:29:32.816
 So that's why you can trust that this process

618
00:29:33.198 --> 00:29:53.944
 um has gone through a legitimate phase and it gives consultation phase and this discussion phase so just to kind of remark that and then when it comes to the concrete kind of application of this now this is of course where it becomes interesting because that's basically what the future is all about right so indeed we now need to ensure that these principles actually get

619
00:29:54.460 --> 00:29:59.085
 used and applied locally in concrete projects yeah so

620
00:29:59.788 --> 00:30:01.110
There's a couple of things that we have planned.

621
00:30:01.370 --> 00:30:02.071
 So first,

622
00:30:02.090 --> 00:30:02.290
 I mean,

623
00:30:02.350 --> 00:30:05.211
 now with the launch event of the principles and,

624
00:30:05.333 --> 00:30:05.594
 you know,

625
00:30:05.614 --> 00:30:07.915
 this launch event also being the moment where I thought,

626
00:30:07.916 --> 00:30:08.040
 OK,

627
00:30:08.172 --> 00:30:08.360
 well,

628
00:30:08.579 --> 00:30:11.297
 now this has indeed tons of potential because,

629
00:30:11.298 --> 00:30:11.540
 you know,

630
00:30:11.541 --> 00:30:15.040
 all the stakeholders came together and they said why they thought this initiative was important.

631
00:30:15.041 --> 00:30:17.641
 They gave good best practices from their context.

632
00:30:18.704 --> 00:30:20.532
 And then we founded the initiative.

633
00:30:21.250 --> 00:30:22.985
 It's now its own kind of presence online.

634
00:30:23.016 --> 00:30:27.672
 So fastfaireenergy.eu and with the ambition really to create kind of...

635
00:30:28.576 --> 00:30:32.636
 the ultimate European go-to hub for fairness around energy.

636
00:30:33.136 --> 00:30:35.796
 So this is really where you would go when you want to know,

637
00:30:35.859 --> 00:30:36.116
 okay,

638
00:30:36.257 --> 00:30:40.335
 what are best practices that are kind of supported by the different sectors,

639
00:30:40.421 --> 00:30:40.702
 you know,

640
00:30:41.179 --> 00:30:42.319
 that they can agree behind.

641
00:30:43.616 --> 00:30:52.484
 To what extent does knowledge exist that kind of really supports the argument that you need more measures locally to drive fairness or acceptance?

642
00:30:52.999 --> 00:30:54.577
 To what extent does that knowledge connect?

643
00:30:54.784 --> 00:31:14.121
 those measures to lead an acceleration of renewables i think that's something that we need more and more research into and i would really look forward i'm really looking forward to more and more of this kind of research materializing and where that a couple of institutes are looking into this but this is something we need more of right so this will be kind of hosted on the initiative and that's the idea but

644
00:31:14.137 --> 00:31:23.778
 then more importantly or not more importantly but like certainly also very importantly we want to engage further with local governments and with the the numbers of the different European organizations.

645
00:31:24.444 --> 00:31:31.352
 So what we've been doing in the past couple of months as ICLEI in partnership with a couple of other organizations,

646
00:31:31.731 --> 00:31:34.317
 we have talked to many rural local governments,

647
00:31:34.356 --> 00:31:36.036
 mostly in a few countries.

648
00:31:36.098 --> 00:31:36.934
 So in Germany,

649
00:31:37.575 --> 00:31:37.856
 Spain,

650
00:31:37.973 --> 00:31:38.395
 France,

651
00:31:39.122 --> 00:31:39.942
 Italy and Poland.

652
00:31:40.755 --> 00:31:41.614
 And we really asked them,

653
00:31:41.708 --> 00:31:41.958
 kind of,

654
00:31:41.989 --> 00:31:44.005
 what is your perception,

655
00:31:44.083 --> 00:31:46.833
 your subjective perception of fairness in your project?

656
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:47.067
 Right.

657
00:31:47.630 --> 00:31:49.536
 And we got hugely different responses.

658
00:31:49.583 --> 00:31:49.833
 Right.

659
00:31:49.864 --> 00:31:50.645
 But they all kind of,

660
00:31:50.770 --> 00:31:51.005
 you know,

661
00:31:51.067 --> 00:31:52.036
 showed a general trend.

662
00:31:52.037 --> 00:31:53.395
 and the general trend is that why...

663
00:31:53.892 --> 00:32:10.848
 there seems to be quite some evidence actually of the positive impact of renewable and also electricity green infrastructure locally in terms of value the bottom line often is that unfortunately these kind of approaches are not deployed across the board they're not the norm yet and that is really an issue from the local government's perspective it's an issue but

664
00:32:10.863 --> 00:32:19.754
 also from everybody else's issue that's and i would say the perspective that's an issue because projects end up in court often right so we have carried out

665
00:32:19.828 --> 00:32:39.007
 these conversations we have this long document all these statements from mayors because we wanted actually you know the local governments have a voice in all of this i think we on the european discourse level kind of there's too few direct statements from local governments in this debate and that's something we wanted to contribute with his paper i think this is quite important and

666
00:32:39.054 --> 00:32:47.476
 then we have not only interviewed and talked to mayors that would have been nice by itself but we also have delivered workshops for them so we've actually engaged in these five countries we

667
00:32:47.928 --> 00:33:03.243
 took these principles and we basically converted them into a checklist it's hosted on the website of the initiative and basically what it does it showcases the five baseline principles of the fast and fair renewables and grids initiative and showcases them as

668
00:33:03.766 --> 00:33:15.180
 not only a checklist that you can go to basically but when you deploy a new project but as a kind of mediation tool so it takes these principles which are these high level principles which tend to be

669
00:33:15.892 --> 00:33:31.971
 raised you know quite generally because they need to be applicable across all the different member states and it takes them and it kind of slims them down to a couple of questions and so as the municipality or also as anyone else you can take a look at this checklist and you basically use

670
00:33:32.002 --> 00:33:41.893
 it to determine first whether your project kind of meets this cross-sectoral standard or this agreement in terms of what fairness is now why is this important i mean you could just say Yeah,

671
00:33:41.924 --> 00:33:42.065
 well,

672
00:33:42.066 --> 00:33:43.065
 it's just another kind of guideline,

673
00:33:43.080 --> 00:33:43.252
 right?

674
00:33:43.846 --> 00:33:44.158
 Fair enough.

675
00:33:45.660 --> 00:33:51.768
 The difference here is that this checklist is really rooted in a cross-sectoral consensus,

676
00:33:51.807 --> 00:33:53.830
 which means that it's incredibly credible.

677
00:33:54.690 --> 00:33:55.807
 The nice thing about this,

678
00:33:55.854 --> 00:33:57.432
 and this used to happen sometimes in the past,

679
00:33:57.471 --> 00:33:57.752
 is like,

680
00:33:57.753 --> 00:33:57.932
 you know,

681
00:33:57.994 --> 00:34:03.963
 some organization develops their guideline and there's tons of really good guidelines out there,

682
00:34:03.979 --> 00:34:07.494
 how you develop community benefits and acceptance and enthusiasm.

683
00:34:07.869 --> 00:34:09.338
 They all have a lot of value.

684
00:34:09.369 --> 00:34:11.447
 I would really encourage people to take a look at those.

685
00:34:12.452 --> 00:34:13.712
 But sometimes then what you hear is that,

686
00:34:13.772 --> 00:34:13.993
 okay,

687
00:34:14.052 --> 00:34:14.833
 somebody will point out,

688
00:34:14.933 --> 00:34:15.052
 oh,

689
00:34:15.053 --> 00:34:15.212
 well,

690
00:34:15.292 --> 00:34:18.154
 this guideline has been produced by a certain sector,

691
00:34:18.212 --> 00:34:19.513
 so there's a certain sector bias.

692
00:34:20.095 --> 00:34:21.572
 Or it's these guys saying this,

693
00:34:21.712 --> 00:34:21.915
 right?

694
00:34:21.994 --> 00:34:22.290
 Or it's,

695
00:34:22.876 --> 00:34:24.158
 if the industry comes up with something,

696
00:34:24.173 --> 00:34:24.298
 it's,

697
00:34:24.376 --> 00:34:24.556
 oh,

698
00:34:24.658 --> 00:34:27.158
 it's the industry that wants to get the output,

699
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:27.353
 you know?

700
00:34:28.033 --> 00:34:28.173
 Yeah.

701
00:34:28.408 --> 00:34:28.533
 So,

702
00:34:28.798 --> 00:34:29.033
 you know,

703
00:34:29.314 --> 00:34:29.751
 there's again,

704
00:34:29.798 --> 00:34:30.798
 this kind of gap between,

705
00:34:30.814 --> 00:34:31.220
 for example,

706
00:34:31.221 --> 00:34:33.861
 the citizens and the ones that want to build the project,

707
00:34:33.923 --> 00:34:34.080
 right?

708
00:34:34.111 --> 00:34:35.158
 Because there is this bias.

709
00:34:35.720 --> 00:34:36.658
 And now for the first time,

710
00:34:36.659 --> 00:34:41.033
 we have a document and a checklist and whatever that takes the bias out of the conversation.

711
00:34:41.816 --> 00:34:42.597
 So if a mayor,

712
00:34:42.657 --> 00:34:43.137
 for example,

713
00:34:43.158 --> 00:34:46.662
 would use this kind of this checklist to talk to the local citizens,

714
00:34:46.663 --> 00:34:47.080
 for example,

715
00:34:47.103 --> 00:34:48.201
 about a future project,

716
00:34:48.681 --> 00:34:50.986
 and they would kind of go through these principles,

717
00:34:51.064 --> 00:34:51.267
 right,

718
00:34:51.283 --> 00:34:56.369
 in this checklist to kind of assess whether the developer or the local community or the local government,

719
00:34:56.549 --> 00:34:57.799
 if it's initiating its own project,

720
00:34:58.517 --> 00:35:00.720
 wants to do a project and somebody says,

721
00:35:00.752 --> 00:35:00.955
 well,

722
00:35:01.033 --> 00:35:03.080
 but isn't this just is there a bias that they can say,

723
00:35:03.142 --> 00:35:03.252
 no,

724
00:35:03.517 --> 00:35:04.564
 there is no bias.

725
00:35:05.002 --> 00:35:05.767
 Everybody agrees.

726
00:35:06.267 --> 00:35:06.877
 Dear developer,

727
00:35:06.939 --> 00:35:09.189
 do you know that your sector association has endorsed this?

728
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:11.080
 Dear civil society,

729
00:35:11.141 --> 00:35:11.641
 are you aware?

730
00:35:11.740 --> 00:35:12.621
 And dear energy communities,

731
00:35:12.622 --> 00:35:13.041
 are you aware?

732
00:35:13.123 --> 00:35:13.303
 Right?

733
00:35:13.304 --> 00:35:16.186
 So you have this kind of common checks and balance system that is in place.

734
00:35:16.187 --> 00:35:16.986
 And that is novel.

735
00:35:17.107 --> 00:35:17.826
 You never had that.

736
00:35:18.584 --> 00:35:19.350
 And locally,

737
00:35:19.389 --> 00:35:21.193
 when you go to these citizens assemblies or whatever,

738
00:35:21.248 --> 00:35:21.428
 right?

739
00:35:21.451 --> 00:35:23.553
 And you see all these different kinds of questions and concerns.

740
00:35:24.334 --> 00:35:26.834
 So much of this comes down to perceived bias.

741
00:35:27.600 --> 00:35:32.178
 And the idea is if you take this out of the conversation and you agree across the sectors,

742
00:35:32.193 --> 00:35:35.022
 then you have a completely different departure point for your conversations.

743
00:35:35.023 --> 00:35:36.209
 And the hope is that in the future,

744
00:35:36.412 --> 00:35:36.803
 this will be.

745
00:35:37.123 --> 00:35:52.139
 more there will be more harmonious kind of conversations going forward yeah so that's a long way to kind of answer your question about the concreteness i suppose so we're having more of these kind of workshops where we explain this to people we have a general exercise but also where we're trying to take the european principles and

746
00:35:52.155 --> 00:36:01.405
 adapt them into the framing of the let's say spatial planning and permitting relations in several member states we're going to start primarily with germany and spain now in the coming year

747
00:36:02.259 --> 00:36:04.242
 Because that's from a more practical point of view,

748
00:36:04.300 --> 00:36:09.124
 because as a mayor or as a developer operating in a certain energy market context or regulatory context,

749
00:36:09.187 --> 00:36:10.663
 you'll be working within that context,

750
00:36:10.687 --> 00:36:11.429
 which means that you,

751
00:36:11.929 --> 00:36:12.288
 of course,

752
00:36:12.312 --> 00:36:13.570
 can refer to high level statements.

753
00:36:13.593 --> 00:36:19.820
 But it's easier to refer to those high level statements if their phrase in a way that is easily connectable to the realities of,

754
00:36:19.821 --> 00:36:20.070
 let's say,

755
00:36:20.071 --> 00:36:21.538
 your space planning or permitting framework.

756
00:36:21.882 --> 00:36:22.054
 Right.

757
00:36:22.398 --> 00:36:24.304
 So this kind of adaptation exercise we're doing,

758
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:25.804
 we're inviting,

759
00:36:25.835 --> 00:36:26.070
 again,

760
00:36:26.117 --> 00:36:28.038
 that kind of national organizations to contribute to that.

761
00:36:28.085 --> 00:36:30.132
 So the kind of mirror organizations,

762
00:36:30.133 --> 00:36:31.851
 the European stakeholders.

763
00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:34.622
 And then we're doing tons of communications work,

764
00:36:35.442 --> 00:36:36.064
 interviews,

765
00:36:36.142 --> 00:36:39.364
 and it's nice to see this popping up in the media sometimes.

766
00:36:40.286 --> 00:36:41.607
 Not yet as much as I would like,

767
00:36:41.747 --> 00:36:42.888
 but it's coming down,

768
00:36:42.966 --> 00:36:43.747
 so it's nice.

769
00:36:43.748 --> 00:36:43.849
 Yeah.

770
00:36:43.850 --> 00:36:43.974
 Yeah.

771
00:36:45.208 --> 00:36:45.771
And I mean,

772
00:36:45.935 --> 00:36:49.232
 you're about to take a six-month break in Asia,

773
00:36:49.372 --> 00:36:50.169
 including Japan,

774
00:36:50.950 --> 00:36:52.919
 where part of your academic journey begins.

775
00:36:53.607 --> 00:36:57.403
 So perhaps we'll export the Fast and Furious initiative to Japan,

776
00:36:57.607 --> 00:37:01.372
 or maybe learn a few things about connecting

777
00:37:01.699 --> 00:37:03.381
 cultures and building bridges,

778
00:37:03.441 --> 00:37:03.601
 right?

779
00:37:03.641 --> 00:37:05.041
 Because it's been all about that.

780
00:37:05.102 --> 00:37:13.452
 And I found what you said about this kind of perception of bias and perception of fairness incredibly powerful.

781
00:37:13.772 --> 00:37:14.092
 And

782
00:37:14.655 --> 00:37:23.780
 I guess that it's really by having a very open mind who has traveled that you managed to see through these things.

783
00:37:24.327 --> 00:37:28.670
 So would you dream to export it to Japan?

784
00:37:30.323 --> 00:37:31.765
 Or at least this way of doing it.

785
00:37:31.766 --> 00:37:31.926
Yeah,

786
00:37:32.265 --> 00:37:33.127
 that's a good question.

787
00:37:33.146 --> 00:37:33.347
 I mean,

788
00:37:33.348 --> 00:37:35.129
 I do have my connections,

789
00:37:35.168 --> 00:37:36.988
 my professional connections in Japan as well,

790
00:37:37.129 --> 00:37:38.254
 kind of in the energy space.

791
00:37:38.472 --> 00:37:38.715
 Actually,

792
00:37:38.754 --> 00:37:40.269
 back in the day when I did my bachelor,

793
00:37:40.332 --> 00:37:43.597
 I used to intern at an organization called ISAP,

794
00:37:43.660 --> 00:37:45.660
 the Institute for Sustainable Energy Policies,

795
00:37:46.222 --> 00:37:46.972
 which is by the way,

796
00:37:47.176 --> 00:37:49.457
 they're to blame for kind of me now working on,

797
00:37:49.629 --> 00:37:49.863
 you know,

798
00:37:50.238 --> 00:37:51.660
 community acceptance and all of that,

799
00:37:51.722 --> 00:37:56.222
 because I've been doing work related to kind of collective energy action in Japan.

800
00:37:56.410 --> 00:37:59.066
 whatever's in their place and that's kind of it.

801
00:37:59.803 --> 00:37:59.923
 No,

802
00:38:00.643 --> 00:38:01.264
 I could have,

803
00:38:01.265 --> 00:38:01.743
 I could have,

804
00:38:01.744 --> 00:38:02.143
 I could have,

805
00:38:02.164 --> 00:38:03.963
 but we already jumped to the next question.

806
00:38:04.002 --> 00:38:04.385
 But yes,

807
00:38:04.623 --> 00:38:06.186
 that's indeed one of the reasons indeed.

808
00:38:06.745 --> 00:38:11.026
 So if anyone listens to the conversation in its entirety,

809
00:38:11.104 --> 00:38:11.846
 they will find it out.

810
00:38:13.190 --> 00:38:13.784
 And I'm sure they will,

811
00:38:14.065 --> 00:38:14.323
 I hope.

812
00:38:14.963 --> 00:38:15.799
 But in any case,

813
00:38:15.987 --> 00:38:17.002
 it would be interesting to do that,

814
00:38:17.143 --> 00:38:17.346
 right?

815
00:38:17.565 --> 00:38:17.690
 So,

816
00:38:18.002 --> 00:38:18.268
 I mean,

817
00:38:19.080 --> 00:38:19.205
 the

818
00:38:19.721 --> 00:38:25.127
 Fast and Furious Nibbles and Grids consensus is an exercise that is in its core replicable.

819
00:38:25.393 --> 00:38:25.549
 Yeah,

820
00:38:25.752 --> 00:38:27.284
 so having said that...

821
00:38:27.551 --> 00:38:50.650
 within europe there was no need to do this exercise again we already have an adaptation so even if you know to go to the national countries we're not reopening any principles we're just asking the questions how do you rephrase them within the context of these existing regular relations that they even easier usable in practical terms yeah you can even use them without but it's may would make it even easier now if you go into other regions of the world we

822
00:38:50.651 --> 00:38:55.837
 have of course also keeping in mind that we're selling this as a european kind of consensus right cross procedural consensus.

823
00:38:56.379 --> 00:39:13.576
 indeed the question would arise to what extent you would need to kind of readapt or redo this consensus building exercise a little bit to you know conform to the realities of the u.s market or the you know south african market or the the japanese market or the asean market for that sense right and

824
00:39:13.935 --> 00:39:23.842
 the reason for this is because i think perceptions of renewables in terms of to what extent they are accepted locally and or how these dynamics play out locally you know how

825
00:39:25.163 --> 00:39:30.245
 how people kind of voice their either enthusiasm or not enthusiasm,

826
00:39:30.323 --> 00:39:31.205
 kind of the disagreement.

827
00:39:32.045 --> 00:39:35.182
 You see that kind of differ a lot between different countries in the world.

828
00:39:35.183 --> 00:39:35.424
 You know,

829
00:39:35.425 --> 00:39:40.424
 it's also depending on general kind of democracy dynamics and the kind of social dynamics,

830
00:39:40.448 --> 00:39:40.784
 I think.

831
00:39:41.784 --> 00:39:45.924
 And this will certainly influence how the exact principles will be phrased.

832
00:39:46.143 --> 00:39:50.330
 There are certain terms in the kind of technical terms that I think might not be.

833
00:39:51.596 --> 00:39:53.561
 So in reader in the US or in Canada,

834
00:39:53.721 --> 00:39:54.342
 for example,

835
00:39:55.024 --> 00:39:55.985
 certain terms might...

836
00:39:56.706 --> 00:39:57.687
 without further explanation,

837
00:39:57.867 --> 00:39:59.408
 not be entirely clear what we mean with them.

838
00:40:00.029 --> 00:40:01.611
 And this is quite important to have this kind of.

839
00:40:02.091 --> 00:40:02.212
 So,

840
00:40:02.310 --> 00:40:03.072
 so yeah,

841
00:40:03.091 --> 00:40:04.998
 so that's kind of the question mark there.

842
00:40:05.435 --> 00:40:05.716
 For now,

843
00:40:05.732 --> 00:40:06.677
 we're focusing on Europe,

844
00:40:07.099 --> 00:40:08.474
 but certainly to my knowledge,

845
00:40:08.615 --> 00:40:11.818
 this exercise is also the first one globally that has actually done that.

846
00:40:11.904 --> 00:40:15.224
 I don't think there's been a cross-sectoral agreement on fairness in other places in the world.

847
00:40:15.380 --> 00:40:17.005
 At least if there is,

848
00:40:17.162 --> 00:40:19.162
 I'd be happy to learn about it and connect.

849
00:40:19.615 --> 00:40:20.943
 But I don't think that's the case yet.

850
00:40:21.646 --> 00:40:24.896
 So that's the technical part in terms of would I be interested in exporting it?

851
00:40:25.209 --> 00:40:25.818
 Maybe let's

852
00:40:26.226 --> 00:40:29.809
 Now we're focusing on the implementation in European fronts.

853
00:40:29.830 --> 00:40:30.168
 I mean,

854
00:40:30.211 --> 00:40:30.430
 ICLEI,

855
00:40:30.431 --> 00:40:30.692
 of course,

856
00:40:30.693 --> 00:40:31.871
 is a global network and all of that.

857
00:40:31.872 --> 00:40:32.391
 But at the moment,

858
00:40:32.774 --> 00:40:37.176
 ICLEI Europe and the endorsing stakeholders currently are focusing on European context.

859
00:40:37.801 --> 00:40:41.262
 And then potentially there's room for the kind of global export.

860
00:40:42.004 --> 00:40:44.707
 And then to answer your question on the next six months.

861
00:40:44.801 --> 00:40:45.457
 So indeed,

862
00:40:45.832 --> 00:40:49.332
 I'll be going on sabbatical and I will be not working on this.

863
00:40:51.146 --> 00:41:06.218
 so so i will be doing anything else than working on this and i need a bit of a distance i think it was a intense year i think um for for me certainly and also the colleagues kind of working with me on this initiative and this project is you

864
00:41:06.219 --> 00:41:18.367
 know it certainly has been like you know multiple months of you know having kind of told everyone this is what we want to do and this is what needs to happen and you know everything has kind of been going to high levels and everything but there was

865
00:41:18.842 --> 00:41:20.304
 Until one day before the launching went,

866
00:41:20.305 --> 00:41:22.605
 there was never a guarantee that this will actually happen.

867
00:41:23.386 --> 00:41:29.269
 So it was basically one year of hoping and pushing for it.

868
00:41:29.292 --> 00:41:30.613
 And that's just how it goes.

869
00:41:30.652 --> 00:41:31.558
 That's just how it goes.

870
00:41:32.214 --> 00:41:37.425
 But that plus me now working on the topic of collective energy and acceptance for,

871
00:41:37.456 --> 00:41:37.785
 I think,

872
00:41:38.300 --> 00:41:38.988
 the last eight,

873
00:41:39.066 --> 00:41:39.660
 nine years.

874
00:41:39.706 --> 00:41:41.941
 I think I need a bit of a break.

875
00:41:42.206 --> 00:41:43.753
 Go back to Japanese culture.

876
00:41:44.472 --> 00:41:45.863
 That's what I'm going to do most of the time.

877
00:41:46.738 --> 00:41:50.998
 look at it from that perspective and come back refreshed and kind of re-enter all of this,

878
00:41:52.600 --> 00:41:53.721
 which of course I look forward to do.

879
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:54.861
 And in the meantime,

880
00:41:54.862 --> 00:41:56.002
 the initiative does not sleep,

881
00:41:56.104 --> 00:41:56.736
 not at all.

882
00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:58.002
 There's tons of activities planned.

883
00:41:58.041 --> 00:41:59.002
 Some of them I've alluded to,

884
00:41:59.104 --> 00:42:03.197
 and my colleague Sylvia Salini is the coordinator of the initiative in my absence.

885
00:42:04.229 --> 00:42:04.463
 But yeah,

886
00:42:04.541 --> 00:42:06.166
 I'm looking forward to a bit of a breather.

887
00:42:07.666 --> 00:42:08.260
It's great.

888
00:42:08.947 --> 00:42:09.369
 One very,

889
00:42:09.447 --> 00:42:10.401
 very last question.

890
00:42:10.869 --> 00:42:14.463
 Is there any kind of lesson you would like to learn from this

891
00:42:15.322 --> 00:42:16.663
 trust building exercise.

892
00:42:16.924 --> 00:42:17.143
 I mean,

893
00:42:17.483 --> 00:42:17.845
 it's not,

894
00:42:18.145 --> 00:42:20.468
 I've had people who talk about the initiative,

895
00:42:20.526 --> 00:42:23.827
 but not so many people who talk about how you build it.

896
00:42:24.429 --> 00:42:26.772
 So I find it incredibly valuable,

897
00:42:26.975 --> 00:42:28.054
 really the how to.

898
00:42:29.015 --> 00:42:29.358
 And yeah,

899
00:42:29.499 --> 00:42:29.780
 for me,

900
00:42:29.874 --> 00:42:37.483
 it's from the conversation we've been having really this part around the various definitions of the fact that,

901
00:42:37.561 --> 00:42:37.827
 you know,

902
00:42:37.968 --> 00:42:41.624
 people are kind of afraid of the bias or really

903
00:42:41.886 --> 00:42:56.119
 Believing that the other party has an ulterior motive and being some kind of a break for further action because you feel that there is no level play field or there might be full play somewhere and so on.

904
00:42:56.479 --> 00:42:59.643
 I find it incredibly interesting in what you just said.

905
00:42:59.705 --> 00:42:59.830
 And,

906
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:00.690
 you know,

907
00:43:00.909 --> 00:43:05.315
 the listeners know that I'm really fascinated about the topic of trust,

908
00:43:05.393 --> 00:43:06.112
 how you build it,

909
00:43:06.174 --> 00:43:08.705
 how you make it happen in concrete terms.

910
00:43:08.752 --> 00:43:09.487
 but yeah,

911
00:43:09.846 --> 00:43:10.346
 beyond...

912
00:43:10.582 --> 00:43:27.565
really the project results what what is the lesson you would like to to to take with you on your luggage to japan yeah so so just maybe in terms of my lesson and then maybe the kind of lesson and generally for for others who might replicate something like this in other fields so

913
00:43:27.893 --> 00:43:39.455
 in terms of my lesson so i really enjoyed bringing people together behind something that i truly believe makes a difference for the sake of the common good

914
00:43:40.202 --> 00:43:40.442
 I mean,

915
00:43:40.602 --> 00:43:41.023
 that's key.

916
00:43:41.143 --> 00:43:44.404
 We were talking about sustainability.

917
00:43:45.006 --> 00:43:45.666
 That is really key.

918
00:43:45.826 --> 00:43:49.131
 It's about different sectors coming together for a certain given purpose.

919
00:43:50.170 --> 00:43:51.654
 And especially for renewables,

920
00:43:52.092 --> 00:43:52.334
 I mean,

921
00:43:52.514 --> 00:43:54.795
 it's really about this all hands on deck approach.

922
00:43:55.154 --> 00:43:58.443
 We need more renewables and renewables are the thing to do.

923
00:43:58.646 --> 00:44:00.178
 We need to achieve climate neutrality.

924
00:44:01.021 --> 00:44:03.178
 So let's all agree on how to do this in a fair way.

925
00:44:03.459 --> 00:44:04.412
 So that's,

926
00:44:04.443 --> 00:44:04.693
 I think,

927
00:44:04.725 --> 00:44:08.271
 what has been achieved without creating additional legislation.

928
00:44:08.710 --> 00:44:09.792
 That's also just something to mention.

929
00:44:09.811 --> 00:44:11.153
 This is not a legislative initiative.

930
00:44:11.192 --> 00:44:15.415
 This is a sectoral initiative because people came together because they thought it was a good idea.

931
00:44:16.419 --> 00:44:19.141
 So that's something I want to do more in the future.

932
00:44:19.219 --> 00:44:20.141
 I think it's something

933
00:44:21.462 --> 00:44:23.344
 I took a lot of satisfaction out.

934
00:44:23.563 --> 00:44:24.024
 Of course,

935
00:44:24.126 --> 00:44:25.579
 it was challenging,

936
00:44:25.610 --> 00:44:33.657
 but I took a lot of satisfaction when it actually materialized and now also being able to talk about it and seeing how these principles hopefully will be further taken up locally,

937
00:44:34.532 --> 00:44:36.141
 which in itself will take a lot of work,

938
00:44:36.142 --> 00:44:36.438
 I'm sure,

939
00:44:36.439 --> 00:44:36.891
 in the future.

940
00:44:37.606 --> 00:45:04.006
 but that's something i would like to do more certainly yeah and in terms of for someone else so based on my experience yeah there's a couple of things supposed to understand but the bottom line is that i think giving everyone the idea that we're in this for a win-win situation from the very start is very important so the first email you send to any organization or person that you want to have be part of this make sure that this is bulletproof in the sense that

941
00:45:04.454 --> 00:45:29.523
 there is no you know it's already clear that this is not you know you're not doing this to further the gain of your own organization primarily or you're not trying to push a certain narrative on stakeholders i think that's quite important i mean of course it has helped for this particular project that eclair europe has been active in the field for a long time we have been working a lot with you know civil society with with energy communities with the the industrial players as well you know different occasions but

942
00:45:29.805 --> 00:45:34.039
 we have our foot in in all these kind of worlds a little bit and we also perceived

943
00:45:34.522 --> 00:45:36.844
 as the party in the middle sometimes,

944
00:45:37.466 --> 00:45:38.007
 quite regularly.

945
00:45:38.046 --> 00:45:41.467
 And I think that has helped us as ICLA Europe and also me as

946
00:45:41.807 --> 00:45:42.249
 Arthur Hinge,

947
00:45:42.292 --> 00:45:44.050
 that has initiated and facilitated this,

948
00:45:44.893 --> 00:45:47.237
 to move this across the Finnish line.

949
00:45:48.214 --> 00:45:52.721
 So I think that is a very unique kind of context that needs to be maybe understood here.

950
00:45:53.503 --> 00:45:53.956
 And of course,

951
00:45:53.957 --> 00:45:56.721
 what also helps is you need to be able to facilitate processes.

952
00:45:56.768 --> 00:45:59.081
 It's a thing,

953
00:45:59.362 --> 00:46:01.628
 if you have a workshop and then you have to be able to...

954
00:46:02.266 --> 00:46:04.809
 have someone that is able to manage and moderate a workshop like that.

955
00:46:05.751 --> 00:46:07.493
 So it comes with a lot of knowledge.

956
00:46:07.993 --> 00:46:08.114
 Yeah.

957
00:46:08.270 --> 00:46:08.391
 So

958
00:46:09.051 --> 00:46:09.872
 I feel I mean,

959
00:46:09.873 --> 00:46:11.817
 it feels a bit weird to kind of talk about myself in this way.

960
00:46:11.934 --> 00:46:18.544
 But I think the fact that I've been I have been working at Eclay now for about seven years and this field for like eight or nine.

961
00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:18.981
 And I think,

962
00:46:19.169 --> 00:46:19.403
 you know,

963
00:46:19.528 --> 00:46:22.669
 there's a lot of knowledge that comes with it in terms of energy policy,

964
00:46:22.731 --> 00:46:24.028
 the nuances in terms of,

965
00:46:24.029 --> 00:46:24.262
 you know,

966
00:46:24.294 --> 00:46:26.184
 which organization is in favor of which and

967
00:46:26.722 --> 00:46:47.385
 you know anticipating which organization is going to make a stronger push for a certain topic and then anticipating how the other organization might respond to it and then before it comes to the discussion anticipating already the outcome of that discussion that is something that you know is is what's not unimportant was quite important actually here with this with this particular exercise and i can imagine if you take this similar

968
00:46:47.401 --> 00:46:54.776
 kind of approach to other fields it might be similar yeah and of course when you look at you know how european policy or anything is Because maybe that's...

969
00:46:54.822 --> 00:47:11.454
 that's just how it works and that's how consensus is a common that's how consensus is achieved but i think in terms of the replicability it can be done in in any kind of scenario where there is a issue that can be solved at a higher level by

970
00:47:11.579 --> 00:47:16.282
 bringing people together and of course i'm really hyper focused on renewables so i

971
00:47:16.478 --> 00:47:38.742
 don't have the overview of all the other kind of fields i mean basically we are quite large we know we're like 200 people like working on like nds and ngb solutions and all of all these other sustainability related topics but so i can't tell you exactly the details of other topical fields and the replicability but i can imagine that you would have similar scenarios where you know there is certain simply because of the nature of of

972
00:47:38.882 --> 00:47:43.351
 of certain frameworks or markets or whatever that there would be differences in opinion.

973
00:47:43.617 --> 00:47:44.804
 And often there is a...

974
00:47:44.858 --> 00:48:01.767
 cause for these differences and they're not because people don't agree because they don't like to agree it's because they come from different perspectives intrinsically based on what they what organization or secular represent and then this can can often be mediated at a higher level and that requires that this facility actually able to to

975
00:48:01.768 --> 00:48:08.095
 do this based on your knowledge that's required over a long time so i think that's that's quite important to to approach from that perspective as well yeah okay

976
00:48:08.738 --> 00:48:09.018
Arthur,

977
00:48:09.219 --> 00:48:16.286
 thank you for this really incredibly passionate conversation about trust building and fairness.

978
00:48:16.544 --> 00:48:16.888
 And

979
00:48:17.427 --> 00:48:17.646
 I mean,

980
00:48:17.669 --> 00:48:22.271
 I learned a lot and I will definitely follow super closely the

981
00:48:22.630 --> 00:48:24.951
 Fast and Fair renewable initiatives.

982
00:48:24.982 --> 00:48:27.341
 And there are so many lessons to learn.

983
00:48:27.669 --> 00:48:33.029
 So I hope our listeners and viewers will find it as interesting as I do.

984
00:48:33.060 --> 00:48:35.497
 So when can we start contacting you again,

985
00:48:35.826 --> 00:48:36.060
 Arthur?

986
00:48:36.550 --> 00:48:36.730
Well,

987
00:48:37.010 --> 00:48:43.116
 I am still working until the end of August and then I will be gone for six months and I'll be back on the 1st of March.

988
00:48:43.917 --> 00:48:45.218
 So if people want to contact me,

989
00:48:45.319 --> 00:48:46.421
 then they can do that 1st of March.

990
00:48:46.702 --> 00:48:47.678
 But having said that,

991
00:48:47.858 --> 00:48:50.421
 the initiative is very much contactable.

992
00:48:50.686 --> 00:48:52.507
 And that's my colleague Sylvia.

993
00:48:52.780 --> 00:48:54.343
 So there's actually the website.

994
00:48:54.389 --> 00:48:54.530
 It's,

995
00:48:55.452 --> 00:48:55.686
 I think,

996
00:48:55.764 --> 00:48:57.655
 info at fastandfairenergy.eu or something.

997
00:48:59.030 --> 00:49:01.280
 There is contact details,

998
00:49:01.281 --> 00:49:01.608
 of course,

999
00:49:01.609 --> 00:49:02.639
 for the initiative as a whole.

1000
00:49:02.671 --> 00:49:05.264
 And the initiative carries forward even.

1001
00:49:05.526 --> 00:49:06.187
 when I'm not there,

1002
00:49:06.247 --> 00:49:08.209
 because I'm quite happy that it does,

1003
00:49:08.289 --> 00:49:10.752
 because that would be rather horrific if it's just depending on me.

1004
00:49:12.131 --> 00:49:12.815
Thank you so much,

1005
00:49:12.854 --> 00:49:13.135
 Arthur.

1006
00:49:13.233 --> 00:49:15.178
 Enjoy your well-deserved break.

1007
00:49:15.397 --> 00:49:20.444
 And please come back with many more ideas and a lot of energy,

1008
00:49:20.498 --> 00:49:20.959
 of course.

1009
00:49:21.522 --> 00:49:21.959
 And yeah,

1010
00:49:22.287 --> 00:49:23.225
 all the best for the future.

1011
00:49:23.490 --> 00:49:23.990
 Thank you so much,

1012
00:49:24.006 --> 00:49:24.209
 Arthur.

1013
00:49:25.569 --> 00:49:28.522
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic.

1014
00:49:28.787 --> 00:49:35.397
 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-looking

1015
00:49:35.418 --> 00:49:37.340
 thinking mouths out there.

1016
00:49:37.341 --> 00:49:38.181
 Amber and Cornelis,

1017
00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:39.941
 your hosts from Policy Consultancy,

1018
00:49:40.023 --> 00:49:41.085
 Next Energy Consumer,

1019
00:49:41.464 --> 00:49:44.925
 and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you,

1020
00:49:45.308 --> 00:49:47.448
 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners.

1021
00:49:48.128 --> 00:49:49.370
 Since 2021,

1022
00:49:49.550 --> 00:49:51.034
 we've shared countless stories,

1023
00:49:51.191 --> 00:49:51.675
 insights,

1024
00:49:51.691 --> 00:49:54.831
 and ideas over more than 14 episodes,

1025
00:49:55.222 --> 00:49:58.394
 and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm.

1026
00:49:59.097 --> 00:50:03.378
 If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going,

1027
00:50:03.770 --> 00:50:05.351
 Why not support us on Patreon?

1028
00:50:05.972 --> 00:50:09.255
 Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way.

1029
00:50:09.775 --> 00:50:11.556
 Check out the show notes for the link.

1030
00:50:12.275 --> 00:50:12.681
 And hey,

1031
00:50:13.158 --> 00:50:18.806
 if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future,

1032
00:50:19.306 --> 00:50:22.181
 we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you.

1033
00:50:22.650 --> 00:50:28.697
 It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together.

1034
00:50:29.681 --> 00:50:31.119
 Shout out to the fantastic

1035
00:50:31.478 --> 00:50:32.634
 Igor Mikhailovich from...

1036
00:50:32.950 --> 00:50:36.955
 Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work,

1037
00:50:37.334 --> 00:50:39.756
 making every episode a joy to listen to.

1038
00:50:40.659 --> 00:50:41.678
 If you haven't already,

1039
00:50:41.936 --> 00:50:45.405
 make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform.

1040
00:50:45.881 --> 00:50:49.366
 And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode,

1041
00:50:49.741 --> 00:50:51.366
 we'd love for you to spread the word.

1042
00:50:51.787 --> 00:50:55.991
 It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive.

1043
00:50:56.506 --> 00:50:57.819
 Sharing is caring.

1044
00:50:58.381 --> 00:51:02.366
 Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all