WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.884 --> 00:00:04.084 Hello! 2 00:00:04.725 --> 00:00:06.085 Passionate about sustainability, 3 00:00:06.226 --> 00:00:07.087 energy and climate? 4 00:00:07.667 --> 00:00:08.550 You're in the right place. 5 00:00:08.890 --> 00:00:09.949 Welcome to Energetic. 6 00:00:10.550 --> 00:00:18.476 I'm Maureen Cornelis and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen. 7 00:00:19.179 --> 00:00:20.382 They may be activists, 8 00:00:20.585 --> 00:00:21.226 scientists, 9 00:00:21.585 --> 00:00:24.757 policy makers or other enthusiasts just like you. 10 00:00:25.507 --> 00:00:31.554 Let their life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet. 11 00:00:34.552 --> 00:00:34.832 Today, 12 00:00:34.992 --> 00:00:38.254 I have the pleasure of welcoming again Louise Sutherland, 13 00:00:38.492 --> 00:00:41.972 a great friend and a leading expert in Europe's energy transition. 14 00:00:42.851 --> 00:00:45.297 And she's managing principal at WRAP, 15 00:00:45.554 --> 00:00:47.437 the regulatory assisted project, 16 00:00:47.453 --> 00:00:52.570 and she's been at the forefront of shaping policies that make the energy transition work for everyone, 17 00:00:53.101 --> 00:00:56.414 especially lower income households and people affected by energy poverty. 18 00:00:57.164 --> 00:00:57.929 Louise asked... 19 00:00:58.160 --> 00:01:04.064 has played a key role in introducing energy performance standards across Europe and is also working with policymakers, 20 00:01:04.127 --> 00:01:08.010 non-profits and industry leaders to drive meaningful changes. 21 00:01:08.830 --> 00:01:13.236 She's one of these people who always challenge us to think differently about the energy system. 22 00:01:13.892 --> 00:01:15.221 As it's designed by people, 23 00:01:15.299 --> 00:01:16.721 it must be designed for people, 24 00:01:16.877 --> 00:01:17.080 right? 25 00:01:17.564 --> 00:01:19.705 So if some are being left behind, 26 00:01:19.736 --> 00:01:21.486 we have the power to change it. 27 00:01:21.924 --> 00:01:22.861 So in this episode, 28 00:01:23.299 --> 00:01:26.392 we'll explore the EU's Fit for 55 framework. 29 00:01:26.716 --> 00:01:35.146 breaking down what's been achieved and why it is crucial to keep these wins front and center as we move into implementation. 30 00:01:36.084 --> 00:01:40.771 We'll also dive into her key takeaways from the New York Climate Week, 31 00:01:41.349 --> 00:01:47.560 looking at the importance of energy justice and how we can bridge the gaps in sustainability goals as we push forward. 32 00:01:48.138 --> 00:01:52.795 I'm really excited to hear Louise's fresh and global perspective on I... 33 00:01:53.412 --> 00:01:56.855 how the EU's efforts stack up against international approaches, 34 00:01:57.338 --> 00:02:01.818 and where we might need to rethink our strategies or even our language. 35 00:02:02.545 --> 00:02:04.084 So let's get ready for a lively, 36 00:02:04.146 --> 00:02:08.670 insightful conversation about what's next for Europe's just and inclusive energy transition. 37 00:02:09.303 --> 00:02:09.646 Louise, 38 00:02:09.693 --> 00:02:10.553 welcome back to the show. 39 00:02:11.537 --> 00:02:11.678 Hi, 40 00:02:11.709 --> 00:02:12.037 Maureen. 41 00:02:12.084 --> 00:02:12.959 What an introduction. 42 00:02:13.068 --> 00:02:13.725 Thanks so much. 43 00:02:15.115 --> 00:02:16.053 You're very welcome, 44 00:02:16.115 --> 00:02:16.412 Louise. 45 00:02:16.678 --> 00:02:18.490 It's always a delight to have you on board. 46 00:02:18.662 --> 00:02:19.256 And I must say, 47 00:02:19.381 --> 00:02:20.787 I'm so fond of your accent. 48 00:02:21.344 --> 00:02:21.464 So, 49 00:02:21.604 --> 00:02:22.205 Louise, 50 00:02:22.545 --> 00:02:24.326 let's start by a little recap. 51 00:02:24.828 --> 00:02:27.990 What is the Fit for 55 long-term vision? 52 00:02:28.369 --> 00:02:29.994 Why is it so important? 53 00:02:30.072 --> 00:02:32.017 Why are we talking about it at this moment? 54 00:02:32.658 --> 00:02:37.080 Because it has made Europe make some kind of significant strides, 55 00:02:37.838 --> 00:02:39.447 but you've mentioned it before. 56 00:02:40.260 --> 00:02:43.431 There have been some temporary solutions mentioned. 57 00:02:44.025 --> 00:02:49.791 You've been saying that they aren't enough and we really need better and more coherent implementation, 58 00:02:49.853 --> 00:02:50.056 right? 59 00:02:50.728 --> 00:02:50.916 Sue 60 00:02:51.336 --> 00:02:52.336 What would you say, 61 00:02:53.076 --> 00:02:54.077 given this framework, 62 00:02:54.238 --> 00:02:59.956 are the critical elements for making these policies truly long-lasting and impactful? 63 00:03:01.441 --> 00:03:01.800 Yes, 64 00:03:02.136 --> 00:03:02.980 it's such a big question. 65 00:03:03.042 --> 00:03:04.198 A lot of questions in there. 66 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:04.495 As we know, 67 00:03:04.496 --> 00:03:10.214 the 50-55 package was the policy package to deliver against the 2030 climate target. 68 00:03:10.933 --> 00:03:17.605 And Europe has these really significant climate targets and we really have to accelerate very quickly to 2030, 69 00:03:17.606 --> 00:03:18.167 2040 now. 70 00:03:18.168 --> 00:03:19.105 So the policies are getting 71 00:03:19.504 --> 00:03:20.846 really significant. 72 00:03:21.385 --> 00:03:22.967 One might even say intrusive. 73 00:03:22.987 --> 00:03:26.971 They are getting more and more significant policies to deliver on these very high objectives. 74 00:03:27.709 --> 00:03:36.702 And what I think it's fair to say that the European Commission and then actually all the negotiators negotiating the different files did try to do is to ensure, 75 00:03:37.248 --> 00:03:39.327 as was the label on the front of the package, 76 00:03:39.358 --> 00:03:41.311 that actually people weren't being left behind, 77 00:03:41.530 --> 00:03:47.530 that there was a more significant than ever balancing of the climate and the social objectives. 78 00:03:47.988 --> 00:03:49.930 And looking back across what was achieved, 79 00:03:49.931 --> 00:03:50.391 and bear in mind, 80 00:03:50.411 --> 00:03:51.411 the package really is a package. 81 00:03:51.412 --> 00:03:53.493 It's lots and lots of different bits of legislation. 82 00:03:53.876 --> 00:03:55.755 And they weren't all negotiated at the same time. 83 00:03:56.016 --> 00:03:57.915 They weren't all negotiated by the same negotiators. 84 00:03:58.274 --> 00:04:00.782 They were even originated in different sort of DGs, 85 00:04:00.783 --> 00:04:02.360 different departments almost. 86 00:04:02.626 --> 00:04:03.282 What's useful, 87 00:04:03.305 --> 00:04:03.501 I think, 88 00:04:03.587 --> 00:04:12.524 now to look back is across what's been achieved and trying to piece it all together into a framework that when national implementers approach the package of climate legislation, 89 00:04:12.805 --> 00:04:17.352 they can easily identify those bits that do pursue those social objectives. 90 00:04:17.792 --> 00:04:26.442 And so that's what kind of my work has been over the last sort of six months or a little bit longer to really try to look across all the different directives and look for the really significant pieces. 91 00:04:27.481 --> 00:04:28.426 The one key takeaway, 92 00:04:28.427 --> 00:04:30.403 and this is obvious to anyone who works in this space, 93 00:04:30.404 --> 00:04:31.567 but I think it's worth saying again, 94 00:04:31.583 --> 00:04:32.989 is that there is no one policy. 95 00:04:33.364 --> 00:04:37.458 I think we do a lot of the time we are focused on one individual policy, 96 00:04:37.489 --> 00:04:39.161 a reform to a national policy, 97 00:04:39.426 --> 00:04:40.676 a minimum energy performance standard, 98 00:04:40.755 --> 00:04:42.630 as you mentioned in your introduction. 99 00:04:42.958 --> 00:04:46.958 But there is no one policy that is really going to solve or serve. 100 00:04:47.224 --> 00:04:52.914 I think what's been useful for me to find is the package together does hit a lot of the big pieces we need. 101 00:04:53.476 --> 00:05:01.148 So it's got key measures to ensure that energy poverty alleviation and consideration of those people who are. 102 00:05:01.791 --> 00:05:22.763 least likely to be the first in line to benefit from the transition that their considerations are up in the political agenda so of course we need definitions and measurement can't name it we don't measure it unfortunately it never gets political priority and we've got procedural elements to make sure the right people are in the room or consulted when decisions strategies are being made and 103 00:05:22.810 --> 00:05:28.638 that's pretty groundbreaking right to have this kind of have the people we are talking about in the room. 104 00:05:28.700 --> 00:05:29.435 It's something that 105 00:05:30.023 --> 00:05:32.765 that tended to be overlooked until very recently, 106 00:05:32.906 --> 00:05:33.127 right? 107 00:05:33.207 --> 00:05:35.349 But there were some really significant, 108 00:05:35.427 --> 00:05:35.689 let's say, 109 00:05:35.767 --> 00:05:41.771 international events that made it impossible to avoid not having conversation with the right people in the room. 110 00:05:42.576 --> 00:05:42.732 Yeah, 111 00:05:42.857 --> 00:05:44.896 I think particularly at the kind of Brussels level, 112 00:05:44.897 --> 00:05:46.599 at the kind of EU level, 113 00:05:46.662 --> 00:05:47.287 we are a long, 114 00:05:47.365 --> 00:05:52.146 long way from the individual communities that are going to be affected by all of these policies. 115 00:05:52.162 --> 00:05:53.021 So it is actually very, 116 00:05:53.162 --> 00:05:55.912 it's challenging for the people to get, 117 00:05:55.974 --> 00:05:57.506 or to enable the people to be in the room. 118 00:05:57.537 --> 00:05:57.646 So, 119 00:05:57.647 --> 00:05:58.052 of course, 120 00:05:58.053 --> 00:05:58.412 inevitably, 121 00:05:58.443 --> 00:05:59.193 you're working through. 122 00:05:59.727 --> 00:06:01.648 representative organisations at national level, 123 00:06:01.687 --> 00:06:05.330 and then there's probably also an EU kind of coalition or consortium. 124 00:06:05.388 --> 00:06:07.509 So it is very challenging to do that, 125 00:06:07.568 --> 00:06:10.849 but the measures that we have in place are very much around national consultation. 126 00:06:11.271 --> 00:06:18.607 And what we do have is specifically naming civil society groups that represent vulnerable or low-income channels as a key part of those consultations. 127 00:06:18.608 --> 00:06:19.326 So not just saying, 128 00:06:19.545 --> 00:06:21.326 why consultation with all relevant people, 129 00:06:21.779 --> 00:06:23.091 but actually specifically naming. 130 00:06:23.507 --> 00:06:32.189 But we also have a requirement that every country now has a national panel of experts or in some countries these are called observatories on energy poverty in the ocean. 131 00:06:32.252 --> 00:06:32.767 So this, 132 00:06:32.931 --> 00:06:34.010 when done really well, 133 00:06:34.392 --> 00:06:37.306 can be a kind of long term accountability measure. 134 00:06:37.713 --> 00:06:39.494 So keeping the attention, 135 00:06:39.588 --> 00:06:41.447 keeping the monitoring on these policies. 136 00:06:41.588 --> 00:06:41.744 Yeah, 137 00:06:41.791 --> 00:06:42.588 those procedural things, 138 00:06:42.619 --> 00:06:42.931 I think, 139 00:06:43.197 --> 00:06:44.166 can often be overlooked. 140 00:06:44.447 --> 00:06:46.806 And I think we'll reflect later about having. 141 00:06:47.143 --> 00:06:50.305 been in New York and hearing the kind of getting a sense of the 142 00:06:50.686 --> 00:07:08.344 US approach it's much stronger there about representation community representation and voice I think it's a much stronger part of the dialogue so those measures are really important and then of course we go into the kind of the measures that provide protections and then obviously the measures that really try to provide 143 00:07:08.345 --> 00:07:14.250 sort of structural support to low-income households although individual measures within package for example 144 00:07:14.607 --> 00:07:18.572 reinvent some energy savings to benefit the lower income and energy poor households. 145 00:07:18.573 --> 00:07:20.154 That might be your significant focus. 146 00:07:20.993 --> 00:07:23.154 There are some really important individual measures, 147 00:07:23.599 --> 00:07:28.240 but I think only seeing it in this package and implementing it in this package. 148 00:07:28.919 --> 00:07:29.044 Yeah, 149 00:07:29.083 --> 00:07:33.286 that's very interesting because it's as if without even mentioning it, 150 00:07:33.583 --> 00:07:42.115 the European Commission was finally getting on hold the concept of energy justice that goes way beyond the idea of addressing energy poverty, 151 00:07:42.380 --> 00:07:43.974 addressing and solving. 152 00:07:44.423 --> 00:07:46.925 this crisis that affects actually about 10% 153 00:07:46.966 --> 00:07:47.866 of the EU population. 154 00:07:47.927 --> 00:07:50.230 And I'm only talking about winter numbers. 155 00:07:50.269 --> 00:07:57.156 So it's their understanding that there are things that go way beyond the individual level, 156 00:07:58.093 --> 00:07:59.757 that is way more systemic. 157 00:07:59.820 --> 00:08:01.015 And there are really, 158 00:08:01.218 --> 00:08:01.499 let's say, 159 00:08:01.577 --> 00:08:05.421 blind spots that need to be addressed with the variety of stakeholders. 160 00:08:05.484 --> 00:08:10.109 And I find it really fascinating that this discussion is finally happening because 161 00:08:10.631 --> 00:08:12.453 I've been in the field for about 15 years, 162 00:08:12.533 --> 00:08:29.895 and I remember at first having those kind of discussions where the European Commission didn't really understand that some people were actually struggling with paying their energy bills because they were literally in their ivory towers trying to discuss things at a level that never engaged 163 00:08:30.051 --> 00:08:32.489 with normal everyday people. 164 00:08:32.629 --> 00:08:40.114 right and then there has been like some policy developments they were also a revamping of many 165 00:08:40.531 --> 00:08:45.755 energy packages at the end of the year 2015 after the Paris Agreement and so on. 166 00:08:46.216 --> 00:08:50.942 But it's really since 2020 that things have been changing. 167 00:08:51.364 --> 00:08:56.942 And the Fit for 55 package is a response to all of this between the 168 00:08:57.724 --> 00:08:58.489 COVID crisis, 169 00:08:58.974 --> 00:09:02.114 price crisis and war in Ukraine and supply issues, 170 00:09:02.145 --> 00:09:02.333 right? 171 00:09:03.380 --> 00:09:03.489 Yeah, 172 00:09:03.536 --> 00:09:04.161 I think you're right. 173 00:09:04.177 --> 00:09:05.599 I think there's contextual issues. 174 00:09:05.630 --> 00:09:06.020 So yeah, 175 00:09:06.052 --> 00:09:06.442 absolutely. 176 00:09:06.458 --> 00:09:08.833 I would add to that the yellow vest movements as well. 177 00:09:09.171 --> 00:09:10.112 But very significantly, 178 00:09:10.152 --> 00:09:11.232 I think the price crises, 179 00:09:11.254 --> 00:09:16.099 the negotiations were held during those years where there were lots of emergency measures being put in place. 180 00:09:16.119 --> 00:09:24.447 And so just the sheer amount that government had to spend in emergency measures really showed that we need people to be protected. 181 00:09:24.627 --> 00:09:28.955 The people in society are most vulnerable to be protected from future price spikes. 182 00:09:28.956 --> 00:09:30.173 So I think you're right. 183 00:09:30.174 --> 00:09:32.580 And I'm really glad you referenced the energy justice framework, 184 00:09:32.595 --> 00:09:33.330 because I think you're right. 185 00:09:33.439 --> 00:09:34.158 In the negotiations, 186 00:09:34.595 --> 00:09:36.877 no one had that framework on their desks going. 187 00:09:36.955 --> 00:09:39.998 The energy efficiency directive is on this bed and the gas directive must do that. 188 00:09:40.018 --> 00:09:41.279 But I don't think we were doing that, 189 00:09:41.299 --> 00:09:41.861 but actually 190 00:09:42.299 --> 00:09:43.881 I'm confident we weren't doing that. 191 00:09:44.021 --> 00:09:47.049 But actually looking back through the lens of that framework, 192 00:09:47.689 --> 00:09:50.189 I think the package does hit a number of the points. 193 00:09:50.268 --> 00:09:50.846 Procedural, 194 00:09:50.847 --> 00:09:52.830 we just talked about having the right people in the room, 195 00:09:53.424 --> 00:09:54.533 redistributive. 196 00:09:54.580 --> 00:09:54.986 Of course, 197 00:09:54.987 --> 00:09:58.643 I think a lot of the measures talk now about prioritising lower income, 198 00:09:58.721 --> 00:09:59.736 energy poor households. 199 00:10:00.143 --> 00:10:01.325 through the energy efficiency measures, 200 00:10:01.344 --> 00:10:02.786 which of course we haven't done in the past. 201 00:10:03.086 --> 00:10:07.051 So I think that's been really interesting to see that play out. 202 00:10:07.508 --> 00:10:08.735 Still some blind spots. 203 00:10:08.915 --> 00:10:09.032 Yeah. 204 00:10:09.071 --> 00:10:11.571 Can you tell us about those kind of blind spots? 205 00:10:11.633 --> 00:10:14.438 Because you mentioned like the stakeholders, 206 00:10:14.439 --> 00:10:16.282 you mentioned the accountability, 207 00:10:16.516 --> 00:10:21.750 which is actually something that in previous positions I've been advocating for. 208 00:10:21.969 --> 00:10:22.829 Be accountable, 209 00:10:22.860 --> 00:10:25.750 make sure that the stakeholders are accountable, 210 00:10:25.813 --> 00:10:27.563 that there are ways for people to say, 211 00:10:28.091 --> 00:10:28.311 hey, 212 00:10:28.491 --> 00:10:30.953 something is wrong and we need to fix it, 213 00:10:31.234 --> 00:10:36.281 that there are some really processes to make sure that people's concerns are heard. 214 00:10:36.476 --> 00:10:42.445 And there are also ways to really make sure that the national governments, 215 00:10:42.547 --> 00:10:48.812 local governments do actually implement what is very ambitiously put in the various EU documents, 216 00:10:48.875 --> 00:10:49.093 right? 217 00:10:49.390 --> 00:10:53.875 And also in the kind of international document that we will mention in a second. 218 00:10:54.375 --> 00:10:54.500 Yeah, 219 00:10:54.625 --> 00:10:55.672 so I think you're absolutely right. 220 00:10:56.265 --> 00:10:56.984 There is a lot. 221 00:10:57.047 --> 00:10:58.129 what's in the directives now. 222 00:10:58.289 --> 00:10:58.989 And of course, 223 00:10:58.990 --> 00:10:59.689 it's not perfect. 224 00:10:59.849 --> 00:11:01.230 There's a lot more that could be done. 225 00:11:01.453 --> 00:11:02.074 But in terms of, 226 00:11:02.075 --> 00:11:02.273 I think, 227 00:11:02.351 --> 00:11:03.312 what's achievable, 228 00:11:03.332 --> 00:11:05.675 what's actually implementable right now, 229 00:11:05.777 --> 00:11:07.738 it is a lot already to be getting on with. 230 00:11:07.761 --> 00:11:10.082 So I think my call would be really exactly as you say, 231 00:11:10.582 --> 00:11:14.371 invest in accountability being the European Union, 232 00:11:14.386 --> 00:11:19.121 the Commission and the member states to make sure that those pieces are actually receiving the focus. 233 00:11:19.215 --> 00:11:19.793 Because of course, 234 00:11:20.090 --> 00:11:21.793 there's a lot in this climate package. 235 00:11:22.136 --> 00:11:22.511 And there, 236 00:11:22.527 --> 00:11:23.058 of course, 237 00:11:23.449 --> 00:11:25.090 national implementers will be prioritising. 238 00:11:25.383 --> 00:11:26.124 It's very easy, 239 00:11:26.164 --> 00:11:26.465 I think, 240 00:11:26.466 --> 00:11:33.494 to prioritize some of the big pieces around the energy and climate transition and maybe not so much some of these other pieces. 241 00:11:33.495 --> 00:11:35.689 So I think absolutely the support, 242 00:11:36.111 --> 00:11:37.017 if very importantly, 243 00:11:37.096 --> 00:11:38.096 technical assistance, 244 00:11:38.135 --> 00:11:42.080 support from the civil society and the accountability that you've mentioned. 245 00:11:42.174 --> 00:11:47.939 I would say they're reflecting back on the energy justice framework and also reflecting on the dialogues that we see from other countries. 246 00:11:47.971 --> 00:11:50.533 I think maybe for the next iteration, 247 00:11:50.971 --> 00:11:52.377 where I think in Europe. 248 00:11:52.911 --> 00:11:54.231 We haven't focused enough. 249 00:11:54.251 --> 00:11:55.091 We haven't reckoned. 250 00:11:55.331 --> 00:11:56.311 If I had a crystal ball, 251 00:11:56.331 --> 00:11:58.171 I'd be thinking this is what we were thinking about next. 252 00:11:58.190 --> 00:12:01.175 I think it is that kind of retrospective justice, 253 00:12:01.714 --> 00:12:02.472 looking at, 254 00:12:02.956 --> 00:12:03.511 begun that, 255 00:12:03.573 --> 00:12:07.511 but looking at where have the harms as a result of industrialisation, 256 00:12:07.597 --> 00:12:09.456 as a result of the ongoing energy transition, 257 00:12:09.909 --> 00:12:13.800 expounding our kind of boundaries of who and the impact, 258 00:12:13.940 --> 00:12:19.315 both outside of the European borders and also back in history of where we are today. 259 00:12:19.659 --> 00:12:22.581 So I think that kind of retrospective justice is something we can do. 260 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:37.673 probably haven't what we definitely haven't dealt with enough one thing i think is around kind of commodification of energy talking with colleagues and brilliant partners that work in countries where energy is seen much more as a human development economic development priority it 261 00:12:37.751 --> 00:12:52.251 does ask you to it does require us to reflect on have we over commodified energy is it the fact that we have only just as a result of this energy package in this 2024 in europe just achieved a prevention for people to be 262 00:12:52.415 --> 00:12:56.238 disconnected from their electricity supply when they are vulnerable. 263 00:12:56.500 --> 00:12:58.382 We've only just achieved that European level. 264 00:12:58.621 --> 00:12:59.503 It is astonishing. 265 00:12:59.523 --> 00:13:02.363 That gives you an indication of how, 266 00:13:02.488 --> 00:13:02.925 I think, 267 00:13:03.449 --> 00:13:04.464 to my opinion, 268 00:13:04.808 --> 00:13:08.746 electricity has been more of a commodity than an essential service. 269 00:13:08.777 --> 00:13:13.871 And I think there might be a balancing or there could definitely be discussion about that balancing back out. 270 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:14.589 Yeah, 271 00:13:14.683 --> 00:13:21.058 that's really interesting because there has been a lot of discussion around energy being a kind of a universal right. 272 00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:24.082 And it goes beyond the kind of provision, 273 00:13:24.242 --> 00:13:25.443 being provisioned with energy. 274 00:13:26.142 --> 00:13:26.642 Right now, 275 00:13:26.763 --> 00:13:33.634 there are also some discussion about the fact that there is this sustainable development goal that is about 2030, 276 00:13:33.869 --> 00:13:35.509 getting full access to electricity, 277 00:13:35.650 --> 00:13:37.111 clean electricity worldwide. 278 00:13:37.431 --> 00:13:37.908 But actually, 279 00:13:38.095 --> 00:13:39.533 it's going backward at the moment. 280 00:13:40.017 --> 00:13:44.376 About 700 million people don't have access to electricity at the moment. 281 00:13:44.876 --> 00:13:50.595 And let's say maybe the double figure goes into people having access to low quality electricity, 282 00:13:50.705 --> 00:13:50.908 right? 283 00:13:50.955 --> 00:13:51.064 So 284 00:13:51.371 --> 00:13:53.532 it really puts a lot of things into perspective. 285 00:13:53.874 --> 00:13:55.337 And when we think of us, 286 00:13:55.396 --> 00:13:56.274 developed countries, 287 00:13:56.595 --> 00:13:56.915 we think, 288 00:13:57.017 --> 00:13:57.216 okay, 289 00:13:57.317 --> 00:14:00.399 we have achieved this kind of universal access to electricity, 290 00:14:00.798 --> 00:14:02.782 but it's actually not completely true. 291 00:14:03.204 --> 00:14:08.142 There are some people who are still making huge efforts to just afford, 292 00:14:08.751 --> 00:14:10.048 basically afford the minimum. 293 00:14:10.704 --> 00:14:13.173 And it's not because of their individual situation, 294 00:14:13.251 --> 00:14:13.938 but as you said, 295 00:14:13.970 --> 00:14:18.985 it's about this kind of policy blind spots that are inherited. 296 00:14:19.447 --> 00:14:20.829 And I'm thinking women, 297 00:14:20.909 --> 00:14:22.831 I'm thinking racialized minorities, 298 00:14:23.091 --> 00:14:25.554 I'm thinking of some rural communities, 299 00:14:25.893 --> 00:14:26.835 Roma groups as well, 300 00:14:26.936 --> 00:14:30.319 who have been really left behind into the conversations. 301 00:14:30.835 --> 00:14:43.233 I think it's really interesting also that somehow those conversations are happening or starting to happen at European level while we were not looking at these issues, 302 00:14:43.296 --> 00:14:43.483 right? 303 00:14:43.530 --> 00:14:47.108 But we must start looking at these issues because... 304 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:49.101 We have the kind of international, 305 00:14:49.701 --> 00:14:49.961 let's say, 306 00:14:50.002 --> 00:14:52.106 context that pushes us to say, 307 00:14:52.203 --> 00:14:52.324 OK, 308 00:14:52.844 --> 00:14:55.145 now it's about shifting to a green transition, 309 00:14:55.449 --> 00:14:58.012 but how we can do it in a way that is very inclusive. 310 00:14:58.621 --> 00:15:00.263 And bridging to climate, 311 00:15:00.343 --> 00:15:01.544 the climate week in New York, 312 00:15:01.845 --> 00:15:08.032 it's also something that I find quite interesting in the US because they are a little bit more advanced on those kind of issues, 313 00:15:08.071 --> 00:15:16.438 looking at how this systemic discrimination is actually fostering some form of energy poverty or energy insecurity, 314 00:15:16.579 --> 00:15:16.782 right? 315 00:15:17.923 --> 00:15:18.142 Yeah, 316 00:15:18.298 --> 00:15:20.657 it was a fantastic opportunity to go to climate week. 317 00:15:20.923 --> 00:15:22.360 And I really focus. 318 00:15:23.009 --> 00:15:25.312 So I was there because we jointly organized, 319 00:15:25.332 --> 00:15:27.394 we as WRAP jointly organized with INET, 320 00:15:27.433 --> 00:15:29.918 which is a network of think tanks and Crux, 321 00:15:30.054 --> 00:15:31.480 which is a philanthropic funder. 322 00:15:31.801 --> 00:15:35.222 We jointly organized a global energy equity event, 323 00:15:35.418 --> 00:15:37.660 another discussion which I'll talk a little bit more about in a minute. 324 00:15:37.661 --> 00:15:47.590 But that was a fantastic opportunity to organize that and invite these kind of partners doing fantastic work across the globe to sit and all talk about our experiences. 325 00:15:47.730 --> 00:15:48.855 So that was a fantastic opportunity. 326 00:15:48.871 --> 00:15:49.168 But yeah, 327 00:15:49.169 --> 00:15:49.730 to your question, 328 00:15:49.731 --> 00:15:50.761 so while there, 329 00:15:50.871 --> 00:15:52.418 I prioritised going to... 330 00:15:52.877 --> 00:15:56.802 hear and listen to as many of the kind of energy and climate justice events as I could. 331 00:15:56.822 --> 00:15:57.583 And yes, 332 00:15:57.642 --> 00:16:02.607 I will highlight one fantastic event organised by HBCU, 333 00:16:02.630 --> 00:16:07.333 the Historically Black Colleges and Universities Organisation at the University, 334 00:16:07.334 --> 00:16:08.490 at Columbia University. 335 00:16:09.349 --> 00:16:12.318 And it was an absolutely incredible event, 336 00:16:12.333 --> 00:16:13.536 conference you've ever seen before, 337 00:16:13.724 --> 00:16:15.240 in a lecture theatre. 338 00:16:15.318 --> 00:16:16.865 So everything looked as you might, 339 00:16:17.036 --> 00:16:17.380 familiar, 340 00:16:17.521 --> 00:16:22.021 as you might have seen in other conferences but the agenda the speakers I laughed I cried 341 00:16:22.289 --> 00:16:25.093 We had hip hop about seeds in urban environments. 342 00:16:25.171 --> 00:16:26.835 We had singing. 343 00:16:27.093 --> 00:16:34.358 It truly was an incredible achievement to put on that kind of conference. 344 00:16:34.483 --> 00:16:36.265 And what I really learned, 345 00:16:36.765 --> 00:16:39.874 one of the things I really learned is that I think the movement, 346 00:16:40.187 --> 00:16:42.624 the climate justice and energy justice movement in the US, 347 00:16:42.655 --> 00:16:46.374 I think is much more kind of rooted in the history of civil rights, 348 00:16:47.077 --> 00:16:49.421 environmental justice and land rights. 349 00:16:49.890 --> 00:16:51.343 So we really saw... 350 00:16:52.173 --> 00:16:53.114 from communities, 351 00:16:53.154 --> 00:16:54.895 indigenous communities in particular, 352 00:16:54.975 --> 00:16:56.518 who have struggled, 353 00:16:56.659 --> 00:16:58.721 which struggles is the wrong word to underestimate, 354 00:16:58.760 --> 00:17:03.823 but who have been challenging and fighting for generation around kind of land rights, 355 00:17:03.846 --> 00:17:09.573 but then also huge pollution incidents that affect on their lands and then affect their communities. 356 00:17:09.589 --> 00:17:13.057 So it feels much more visceral, 357 00:17:13.229 --> 00:17:14.432 that conversation to me. 358 00:17:14.589 --> 00:17:15.089 And I think, 359 00:17:15.760 --> 00:17:16.042 again, 360 00:17:16.073 --> 00:17:20.307 that's where I take the reflection from back to the EU is that I think we probably 361 00:17:20.629 --> 00:17:27.958 aren't considering and reckoning with those kind of past injustices as much as I think is being achieved in the US. 362 00:17:28.196 --> 00:17:31.739 It's super interesting because I had exactly the same kind of impression, 363 00:17:31.817 --> 00:17:35.942 observation when I went to COP28 last year in Dubai. 364 00:17:36.005 --> 00:17:43.286 There were those kind of indigenous groups who were marching for energy justice to be taken into consideration, 365 00:17:43.567 --> 00:17:46.520 who were really shouting for bigger, 366 00:17:47.192 --> 00:17:49.973 more systemic solutions to be found and really 367 00:17:50.357 --> 00:17:53.480 They were doing it in a way that somehow we see, 368 00:17:53.840 --> 00:17:59.222 we could see as maybe a little bit exotic if we were really with this kind of Brussels lens, 369 00:17:59.285 --> 00:18:03.050 a little bit too used to the same kind of setting, 370 00:18:03.051 --> 00:18:04.113 the same kind of solution. 371 00:18:04.168 --> 00:18:10.636 But this was very genuinely inspiring to see people do things very differently from what we are used to. 372 00:18:11.605 --> 00:18:11.761 Yeah, 373 00:18:11.840 --> 00:18:12.293 absolutely. 374 00:18:12.418 --> 00:18:15.496 It's very much not people in suits and lobbyists and... 375 00:18:16.061 --> 00:18:18.143 But I think just one reflection of what I did learn as well, 376 00:18:18.223 --> 00:18:20.264 but particularly from those indigenous groups, 377 00:18:20.447 --> 00:18:25.572 that strategy of going to international organisations was when they failed at national level and state level. 378 00:18:25.588 --> 00:18:29.213 So that was also really fascinating that I think in the EU, 379 00:18:29.455 --> 00:18:31.853 certainly in my experience recently, 380 00:18:32.018 --> 00:18:35.260 there's been a willingness and progressive movements. 381 00:18:35.572 --> 00:18:38.697 We have found the audiences with the policy makers and that's been successful. 382 00:18:38.698 --> 00:18:40.900 But when you aren't finding those audiences, 383 00:18:40.963 --> 00:18:43.369 then the need to go to these different international structures. 384 00:18:43.721 --> 00:18:45.943 And you already mentioned the Sustainable Development Goals. 385 00:18:45.963 --> 00:18:49.266 I think those are really essentially underpinning everything we've done. 386 00:18:49.285 --> 00:18:49.809 And of course, 387 00:18:49.810 --> 00:18:50.590 at European level, 388 00:18:51.008 --> 00:18:53.613 those are supported by the Bill of Social Rights, 389 00:18:53.832 --> 00:18:57.855 which I'm pleased to see coming up in the new Commission's agenda. 390 00:18:58.012 --> 00:19:04.340 This focus on social aspects of the union as much as the kind of energy and economic. 391 00:19:04.965 --> 00:19:05.105 Yeah, 392 00:19:05.184 --> 00:19:12.637 that's absolutely fascinating and really something like a topic that we will need to follow in the next five years because there are also some concerns. 393 00:19:13.057 --> 00:19:17.923 from NGOs that those topics will be a little bit watered down within something more linked to, 394 00:19:18.321 --> 00:19:18.622 let's say, 395 00:19:18.661 --> 00:19:20.563 industrial competitivity and so on. 396 00:19:21.286 --> 00:19:23.169 But at the same time, 397 00:19:23.505 --> 00:19:30.794 maybe we also need to have the conversation at 360 degrees because climate change is affecting everyone everywhere, 398 00:19:30.888 --> 00:19:32.560 but with different ways. 399 00:19:32.872 --> 00:19:36.825 And somehow energy policy is a way to address climate change, 400 00:19:36.856 --> 00:19:37.060 right? 401 00:19:37.106 --> 00:19:37.466 It's not, 402 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:41.263 it's exactly the topic of the conversation we had with the previous guests, 403 00:19:41.372 --> 00:19:42.653 Cosimo Tansi from the EB 404 00:19:43.125 --> 00:19:48.006 that really we have to see energy policy as part of a broader solution. 405 00:19:48.045 --> 00:19:57.545 And what you just mentioned about the urban pillar of social rights and the role of civil society and unions is the episodes just before that with the Dostoevsky Bill from EBSU. 406 00:19:57.670 --> 00:19:58.709 So that's really great. 407 00:19:58.826 --> 00:20:00.092 And to our listeners, 408 00:20:00.201 --> 00:20:03.170 please tune in to those episodes because they are really super interesting too. 409 00:20:03.630 --> 00:20:04.191 But yeah, 410 00:20:04.651 --> 00:20:04.971 Louise, 411 00:20:05.152 --> 00:20:14.123 so let's say you've been mentioning many different concepts and one that I've been hearing maybe only once was energy equity. 412 00:20:14.318 --> 00:20:17.763 But you have a lot of things to say about really specifically this term. 413 00:20:17.865 --> 00:20:20.599 So what is energy equity in your view? 414 00:20:22.131 --> 00:20:22.974 How do you frame it? 415 00:20:23.865 --> 00:20:24.006 Yeah, 416 00:20:24.146 --> 00:20:24.865 there's your question, 417 00:20:24.928 --> 00:20:25.318 isn't it? 418 00:20:25.349 --> 00:20:29.178 What the language we use and what it actually means and what it means to hear. 419 00:20:29.521 --> 00:20:29.912 I think 420 00:20:30.346 --> 00:20:35.005 A big change that we've seen or we are seeing when I was describing the European framework, 421 00:20:35.006 --> 00:20:36.247 I was talking about energy poverty. 422 00:20:36.447 --> 00:20:37.486 And that is absolutely, 423 00:20:37.529 --> 00:20:37.849 I think, 424 00:20:38.228 --> 00:20:41.470 a big focus of the new positive aspects of the European framework. 425 00:20:41.471 --> 00:20:45.650 They are focusing on lower income households who have very high energy burdens. 426 00:20:45.651 --> 00:20:46.494 And that is important. 427 00:20:46.869 --> 00:20:49.556 And the other aspect that is not central to my work, 428 00:20:49.557 --> 00:20:51.072 but is also the kind of just transition. 429 00:20:51.087 --> 00:20:56.212 So transition regions who have been very reliant on coal and carbon intensive industries. 430 00:20:56.213 --> 00:20:56.994 So those have been, 431 00:20:56.995 --> 00:20:57.165 I think, 432 00:20:57.166 --> 00:20:58.165 the two key focuses. 433 00:20:58.534 --> 00:21:00.276 And I think that's important because we need focus. 434 00:21:00.555 --> 00:21:03.219 But I do think a wider understanding, 435 00:21:03.860 --> 00:21:09.145 not just thinking about that very extreme end of not being able to afford energy, 436 00:21:09.621 --> 00:21:11.028 sufficient energy services, 437 00:21:11.223 --> 00:21:14.543 but actually thinking more broadly on an equity perspective, 438 00:21:14.950 --> 00:21:17.168 then I think that does include concepts. 439 00:21:17.215 --> 00:21:19.903 Who's owning the energy that you are receiving? 440 00:21:19.996 --> 00:21:21.184 Do you have control? 441 00:21:21.434 --> 00:21:25.715 Are you at mercy of the markets or at mercy of your utility supply or do you have option 442 00:21:26.382 --> 00:21:27.143 Are we engaged, 443 00:21:27.203 --> 00:21:27.563 as we said, 444 00:21:27.564 --> 00:21:28.724 with those kind of procedural, 445 00:21:28.765 --> 00:21:31.406 are we enabled to be engaged in those procedural issues? 446 00:21:31.828 --> 00:21:34.492 So I think it's the energy equity issues, 447 00:21:34.594 --> 00:21:34.929 I think, 448 00:21:35.070 --> 00:21:35.953 allow us to, 449 00:21:36.148 --> 00:21:36.734 exactly as you said, 450 00:21:36.773 --> 00:21:38.117 think a little bit more broadly, 451 00:21:38.851 --> 00:21:39.992 maybe not quite 360, 452 00:21:40.094 --> 00:21:41.797 but much more broadly than we have been. 453 00:21:42.117 --> 00:21:43.758 Not just about supply and affordability, 454 00:21:44.336 --> 00:21:46.945 but about broader aspects around, 455 00:21:47.304 --> 00:21:47.679 as I say, 456 00:21:47.898 --> 00:21:49.648 access and ownership. 457 00:21:50.164 --> 00:21:53.570 Also more broadly around kind of harm and benefit. 458 00:21:54.002 --> 00:21:56.363 So environmental harms locally, 459 00:21:56.645 --> 00:21:57.324 who is winning? 460 00:21:57.686 --> 00:22:00.789 One thing I think that was really well thought out by one of the speakers, 461 00:22:00.828 --> 00:22:02.672 our event, 462 00:22:02.953 --> 00:22:03.953 Bishal Thapa from 463 00:22:04.375 --> 00:22:05.953 CLASP in India, 464 00:22:06.477 --> 00:22:09.875 brought up the point around when you're changing any supply chain, 465 00:22:10.078 --> 00:22:12.985 you really need to be cognizant of who is in that supply chain. 466 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.110 And he was talking about sealing fans, 467 00:22:15.203 --> 00:22:16.985 cooling fans in India, 468 00:22:17.188 --> 00:22:19.125 very important to be able to have people, 469 00:22:19.126 --> 00:22:20.828 for people to have access to those efficient fans. 470 00:22:21.141 --> 00:22:23.344 But actually when you change the efficiency standards to make them 471 00:22:23.594 --> 00:22:24.154 more efficient, 472 00:22:24.515 --> 00:22:27.916 you're really putting a lot of burden on small manufacturers and the SMEs. 473 00:22:27.955 --> 00:22:37.119 So I think energy equity kind of expands us from the individual focus and on just on the affordability focus to a much broader range of focuses. 474 00:22:37.939 --> 00:22:43.697 And not all of those focuses will be equally as important depending on what sector we're working in or policy we're working in, 475 00:22:43.713 --> 00:22:44.275 but it does, 476 00:22:44.353 --> 00:22:49.994 it gives us that kind of the checklist in a way of all the things that we should be running through in our mind. 477 00:22:50.025 --> 00:22:51.056 So we're not having, 478 00:22:51.181 --> 00:22:52.556 so we're having fewer of those. 479 00:22:53.062 --> 00:22:53.663 blind spots. 480 00:22:54.323 --> 00:22:55.105 But I will say, 481 00:22:55.124 --> 00:22:55.685 I think from our, 482 00:22:56.985 --> 00:22:57.446 just pointing, 483 00:22:57.466 --> 00:23:02.110 picking me off on your point around kind of international commitments and 360 degree views, 484 00:23:02.251 --> 00:23:06.196 we asked ourselves before organizing this global energy equity event, 485 00:23:06.274 --> 00:23:07.017 why global? 486 00:23:07.032 --> 00:23:07.259 Actually, 487 00:23:07.298 --> 00:23:11.321 these are issues that really affect people quite locally in individual communities. 488 00:23:11.322 --> 00:23:15.665 And we know the solutions are local and they do need to be locally adapted. 489 00:23:15.666 --> 00:23:16.868 So why are we, 490 00:23:17.103 --> 00:23:17.384 honestly, 491 00:23:17.431 --> 00:23:19.446 why are we flying to New York to do a global thing? 492 00:23:19.743 --> 00:23:22.024 This was a question I asked myself many times, 493 00:23:22.071 --> 00:23:22.446 given that 494 00:23:22.654 --> 00:23:23.575 try not to fly. 495 00:23:23.955 --> 00:23:29.141 But actually what I learned from the event is there were so many issues that the other speakers raised. 496 00:23:29.142 --> 00:23:29.399 I mean, 497 00:23:29.461 --> 00:23:31.063 speakers from the African region, 498 00:23:31.078 --> 00:23:31.625 from Brazil, 499 00:23:32.102 --> 00:23:32.305 India, 500 00:23:32.360 --> 00:23:32.907 from the US, 501 00:23:32.922 --> 00:23:33.547 and then of course me. 502 00:23:33.805 --> 00:23:34.610 So many issues, 503 00:23:34.688 --> 00:23:35.367 we're very familiar, 504 00:23:35.469 --> 00:23:37.149 where we are all tackling, 505 00:23:37.188 --> 00:23:37.586 I think, 506 00:23:38.125 --> 00:23:41.078 some largely very significantly similar issues. 507 00:23:41.188 --> 00:23:44.016 So things like investment in infrastructure, 508 00:23:44.235 --> 00:23:46.157 the energy transition is a huge opportunity. 509 00:23:46.158 --> 00:23:47.735 We are changing the whole energy system. 510 00:23:48.078 --> 00:23:50.063 This does mean changes in huge infrastructure. 511 00:23:50.486 --> 00:23:53.687 we can either have a social lens when we change the infrastructure, 512 00:23:53.806 --> 00:23:55.826 or we can just deliver it for infrastructure's sake. 513 00:23:56.146 --> 00:24:02.029 And I think that came out particularly clearly from colleagues from ITDP working in the transport sector. 514 00:24:02.131 --> 00:24:03.107 Of course, 515 00:24:03.232 --> 00:24:04.170 access to transport, 516 00:24:04.232 --> 00:24:04.951 different modes, 517 00:24:05.170 --> 00:24:05.631 safety, 518 00:24:05.849 --> 00:24:06.607 the accessibility, 519 00:24:06.608 --> 00:24:08.248 the cost of those modes is very important. 520 00:24:08.982 --> 00:24:09.717 Another one was, 521 00:24:09.732 --> 00:24:10.435 of course, 522 00:24:10.498 --> 00:24:10.795 SMEs, 523 00:24:10.810 --> 00:24:11.998 as I've described, 524 00:24:12.014 --> 00:24:13.045 the supply chain, 525 00:24:13.310 --> 00:24:15.654 and then gender and representation came out as well. 526 00:24:15.810 --> 00:24:17.717 I think just listening to these colleagues, 527 00:24:17.732 --> 00:24:18.639 I think we did record it. 528 00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:18.748 So, 529 00:24:19.130 --> 00:24:20.612 I'd love to share that more widely. 530 00:24:20.812 --> 00:24:21.192 And of course, 531 00:24:21.213 --> 00:24:22.033 everyone should go and listen to it. 532 00:24:22.034 --> 00:24:26.276 But I think I listed sort of nine or 10 in a relatively short event of common themes. 533 00:24:26.737 --> 00:24:27.658 And I think the other thing, 534 00:24:27.659 --> 00:24:32.026 as well as I've learned through talking to rap colleagues in India and China in particular, 535 00:24:32.487 --> 00:24:35.322 and then working through events like this with colleagues from the rest of the world, 536 00:24:35.354 --> 00:24:38.026 is that it shows you where your cultural biases are. 537 00:24:38.369 --> 00:24:40.213 I think it shows us where our gaps are. 538 00:24:40.214 --> 00:24:41.369 I think in the EU, 539 00:24:41.370 --> 00:24:42.635 we do think we're quite progressive. 540 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:43.541 Actually, 541 00:24:43.651 --> 00:24:45.119 my experience is we're quite progressive, 542 00:24:45.197 --> 00:24:45.572 particularly on... 543 00:24:45.634 --> 00:25:04.058 climate we are we are ahead and then we're also kind of tackle these social issues as well but it really shows you where where the assumptions that you come from are not are not innate they are assumptions that we've created there's so many more i mean so i can use your share your thoughts that's really interesting 544 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:05.521 As you just said, 545 00:25:05.621 --> 00:25:06.762 those conversations, 546 00:25:06.842 --> 00:25:07.063 yes, 547 00:25:07.303 --> 00:25:08.705 they touch the very local, 548 00:25:08.803 --> 00:25:10.123 the personal story of the people. 549 00:25:10.608 --> 00:25:12.389 But the challenges, 550 00:25:12.390 --> 00:25:14.428 the globalization challenge, 551 00:25:14.491 --> 00:25:16.209 the digitalization challenge, 552 00:25:16.670 --> 00:25:18.897 it's actually a global conversation we need to have. 553 00:25:18.936 --> 00:25:19.217 That's, 554 00:25:19.436 --> 00:25:19.616 yeah, 555 00:25:19.772 --> 00:25:20.178 of course, 556 00:25:20.678 --> 00:25:24.256 we talk about different things when we say energy tariff in the US, 557 00:25:24.303 --> 00:25:25.663 you say energy rates, 558 00:25:25.725 --> 00:25:25.944 right? 559 00:25:26.100 --> 00:25:27.850 But it goes beyond that. 560 00:25:28.100 --> 00:25:29.788 So please tell me more about this kind of. 561 00:25:29.936 --> 00:25:45.930 blind spots and I think we again go back to the fact that English is a dominant language and maybe we expect people to think the same way when we use the same language but there are so many subtleties depending on where you are in living and what you're experiencing on a daily basis. 562 00:25:47.352 --> 00:25:58.477 Yeah I think the most significant sort of cultural bias or blind spot that is one I've already mentioned around the kind of commodification that we we work in energy markets we think of energy markets before. 563 00:25:58.996 --> 00:26:00.596 sometimes before we think of energy service. 564 00:26:00.956 --> 00:26:05.077 That has been really interesting to me to learn from countries where, 565 00:26:05.538 --> 00:26:05.776 you know, 566 00:26:05.998 --> 00:26:06.998 energy is a development right, 567 00:26:06.999 --> 00:26:09.717 but then also that affects the structure of pricing, 568 00:26:09.756 --> 00:26:10.936 who pays for what bits. 569 00:26:11.217 --> 00:26:14.022 I think it's fairly common in Europe that we've had a cross-subsidization, 570 00:26:14.061 --> 00:26:15.061 for example, 571 00:26:15.077 --> 00:26:17.467 from two industries because of the idea that obviously, 572 00:26:17.827 --> 00:26:18.045 you know, 573 00:26:18.046 --> 00:26:18.358 industry, 574 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:19.858 we want to keep industry in 575 00:26:20.373 --> 00:26:26.186 Europe. We also want to make sure industry enables us to keep jobs and support communities that are reliant on that industry. 576 00:26:26.483 --> 00:26:28.483 And so we've had some cross-subsidization. 577 00:26:29.553 --> 00:26:30.413 In other countries, 578 00:26:30.653 --> 00:26:32.536 there is an opposite cross-opsalization to, 579 00:26:32.675 --> 00:26:33.237 for example, 580 00:26:33.276 --> 00:26:35.218 support agriculture and households. 581 00:26:35.219 --> 00:26:38.382 So once you've noticed something you've taken for granted, 582 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:40.202 like energy as a commodity, 583 00:26:41.280 --> 00:26:42.264 if you start to challenge that, 584 00:26:42.265 --> 00:26:46.389 you can draw a lot of the kind of other norms and structures that we've created. 585 00:26:46.889 --> 00:26:48.608 So I think that has been a really significant one. 586 00:26:48.671 --> 00:26:49.171 And as well, 587 00:26:49.186 --> 00:26:49.889 as I've said around, 588 00:26:49.936 --> 00:26:51.733 I think in America, 589 00:26:51.780 --> 00:26:57.124 you hear a lot about tracing back the energy injustices to colonialism. 590 00:26:57.692 --> 00:26:59.895 And I don't hear that conversation in Europe. 591 00:27:00.795 --> 00:27:00.916 Yeah, 592 00:27:01.557 --> 00:27:01.936 that's true. 593 00:27:02.338 --> 00:27:05.061 There are only a few groups that might be interested in it, 594 00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:10.428 but they don't really even have the visibility or maybe the funding to explore, 595 00:27:10.889 --> 00:27:13.811 dig a little bit deeper into what it actually means. 596 00:27:14.545 --> 00:27:15.717 And in Europe, 597 00:27:16.545 --> 00:27:16.764 again, 598 00:27:16.811 --> 00:27:18.076 we take electricity, 599 00:27:18.498 --> 00:27:23.530 energy very much for granted without ever thinking where does it come from? 600 00:27:24.201 --> 00:27:25.983 Whereas you mentioned... 601 00:27:25.984 --> 00:27:26.483 And so. 602 00:27:26.772 --> 00:27:48.293 light chain etc but it's also about kind of raw materials where they sourced etc so those are questions that will emerge very soon right because we also need to understand that we have an impact when we use electricity or gas and it's not only like the cost of running it but what comes before right and it's 603 00:27:48.294 --> 00:27:54.699 the kind of legacy cost if we want right and it's something that is always more visible as we... 604 00:27:55.104 --> 00:27:57.627 talk more and more in you about circularity. 605 00:27:58.268 --> 00:28:00.289 But circularity and energy, 606 00:28:00.371 --> 00:28:00.969 for the time being, 607 00:28:01.012 --> 00:28:03.051 they're a little bit like two different topics, 608 00:28:03.090 --> 00:28:03.270 right? 609 00:28:03.996 --> 00:28:04.231 Yes, 610 00:28:04.356 --> 00:28:04.871 of course, 611 00:28:04.895 --> 00:28:19.832 the Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the very swift need to stop import of Russian gas made us think immediately about where we are importing raw materials or goods and services from. 612 00:28:20.270 --> 00:28:22.270 And so I think that's definitely increased focus there. 613 00:28:22.504 --> 00:28:22.895 I think. 614 00:28:23.316 --> 00:28:24.236 Particularly as the EU, 615 00:28:24.336 --> 00:28:27.897 because we are a bit further ahead than many other regions in the climate work, 616 00:28:28.139 --> 00:28:28.936 two things are happening. 617 00:28:29.217 --> 00:28:33.897 One is obviously very clearly we will be importing a lot of the solutions that we need. 618 00:28:34.498 --> 00:28:36.483 So I'm thinking civil materials for cars themselves, 619 00:28:36.537 --> 00:28:37.756 perhaps in electric cars, 620 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:38.756 heat pumps, 621 00:28:38.779 --> 00:28:39.694 heat devices, 622 00:28:39.756 --> 00:28:40.100 battery. 623 00:28:40.522 --> 00:28:45.944 These all have impacts on positive and extractive impact in other communities. 624 00:28:45.945 --> 00:28:49.397 So I think more focus there is another reason, 625 00:28:49.459 --> 00:28:49.678 obviously, 626 00:28:49.725 --> 00:28:52.381 for this kind of global perspective. 627 00:28:52.840 --> 00:28:57.186 I think the other sort of impact of us moving quite fast is the policies that we are introducing are, 628 00:28:57.205 --> 00:28:57.565 as I say, 629 00:28:57.643 --> 00:28:58.506 getting more intrusive. 630 00:28:58.526 --> 00:29:00.666 So it is going to be a huge challenge, 631 00:29:00.690 --> 00:29:00.932 I think, 632 00:29:00.947 --> 00:29:09.354 to both keep a focus on within the countries of the EU that the policies affect that are asking you to do different things in your life, 633 00:29:09.619 --> 00:29:11.151 asking you to do something different with your home, 634 00:29:11.479 --> 00:29:14.276 asking you to take transport options in different ways, 635 00:29:14.744 --> 00:29:16.744 really asking people to buy different things. 636 00:29:17.229 --> 00:29:21.635 That's all getting quite intrusive and therefore we need a lot of energy and inclusion to manage. 637 00:29:21.824 --> 00:29:26.824 But then also we need to be keeping an eye on what impacts we're having on other communities in the rest of the world. 638 00:29:26.847 --> 00:29:26.964 So, 639 00:29:27.706 --> 00:29:27.984 yes, 640 00:29:28.124 --> 00:29:28.945 it's very challenging. 641 00:29:29.007 --> 00:29:29.124 And 642 00:29:30.046 --> 00:29:32.327 I think reflecting on the negotiation process, 643 00:29:32.343 --> 00:29:35.367 I do think we need to be careful to not let this overwhelm us. 644 00:29:35.429 --> 00:29:39.070 Because I certainly found the negotiation process quite emotional. 645 00:29:39.195 --> 00:29:39.492 Of course, 646 00:29:39.585 --> 00:29:40.288 quite complex. 647 00:29:40.554 --> 00:29:43.210 There were some fantastically successful campaigns, 648 00:29:43.226 --> 00:29:43.507 I think. 649 00:29:44.102 --> 00:29:50.287 from organizations like the Right to Energy Coalition that really did manage to keep the social objective high on the agenda. 650 00:29:50.288 --> 00:29:51.049 And that was fantastic. 651 00:29:51.428 --> 00:29:51.670 But then, 652 00:29:51.671 --> 00:29:52.010 of course, 653 00:29:52.011 --> 00:29:54.510 when you get a joyous email from a policymaker saying, 654 00:29:54.533 --> 00:29:54.650 oh, 655 00:29:54.674 --> 00:29:55.572 we want to do more on this. 656 00:29:55.713 --> 00:29:56.096 What do we do? 657 00:29:56.275 --> 00:29:59.174 You have to go very quickly from campaigning mode into the mode of, 658 00:29:59.721 --> 00:30:00.955 we really know what's in that directive. 659 00:30:00.971 --> 00:30:02.158 Now we know what can be adjusted. 660 00:30:02.174 --> 00:30:04.049 We know what can be asked for new, 661 00:30:04.096 --> 00:30:04.705 what's in scope, 662 00:30:04.706 --> 00:30:05.377 what's out of scope. 663 00:30:05.643 --> 00:30:07.705 And so it's very technically complex, 664 00:30:08.033 --> 00:30:10.268 but I think it's also very emotionally complex. 665 00:30:10.361 --> 00:30:12.424 And I did see of course 666 00:30:12.538 --> 00:30:16.202 a lot of very passionate people who want to achieve great things. 667 00:30:16.580 --> 00:30:18.526 And I think there's also within the climate movement, 668 00:30:18.905 --> 00:30:21.049 a lot of people who we have not won on climate yet. 669 00:30:21.307 --> 00:30:25.893 And so there was a huge caution about slowing down and anything that might slow down the climate movement. 670 00:30:25.948 --> 00:30:26.791 So we do, 671 00:30:26.870 --> 00:30:27.870 and you will have heard this as well, 672 00:30:27.971 --> 00:30:28.213 Marie, 673 00:30:28.549 --> 00:30:29.455 we do hear people say, 674 00:30:29.596 --> 00:30:32.455 why does climate policy need to be more socially just than other policy? 675 00:30:33.174 --> 00:30:37.924 And I can totally see where that is coming from in terms of it's not an entirely bad place. 676 00:30:38.284 --> 00:30:41.752 The people who have been working for their lifetimes on climate and really are very 677 00:30:42.030 --> 00:30:44.011 passionate and fearful that we're going to go backwards. 678 00:30:44.332 --> 00:30:45.433 But at the same time, 679 00:30:45.933 --> 00:30:47.013 that pushback, 680 00:30:47.334 --> 00:30:52.920 we really need to be able to unpack that and to show that there may be compromises along the way. 681 00:30:53.162 --> 00:30:54.365 But overall, 682 00:30:54.920 --> 00:31:01.771 we are balancing climate and social objectives is the only way we will get there. 683 00:31:01.849 --> 00:31:01.974 Yeah. 684 00:31:02.396 --> 00:31:03.990 So there's a lot of work we need to do, 685 00:31:04.131 --> 00:31:04.428 I think, 686 00:31:05.037 --> 00:31:09.974 to support our networks and support our colleagues and partners as this whole thing gets more complex. 687 00:31:10.546 --> 00:31:14.689 That's really interesting that you use several times the term intrusive about policies. 688 00:31:14.732 --> 00:31:15.271 Like policy, 689 00:31:15.552 --> 00:31:17.134 they are starting to be intrusive. 690 00:31:17.135 --> 00:31:19.552 I guess it's kind of wording that 691 00:31:19.919 --> 00:31:21.599 I wouldn't really expect from you. 692 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:28.044 Because somehow intrusive has this kind of meaning that is a little bit negative, 693 00:31:28.122 --> 00:31:28.357 right? 694 00:31:28.591 --> 00:31:31.154 We usually use terms like prescriptive, 695 00:31:31.247 --> 00:31:34.685 very like going into a certain direction, 696 00:31:34.966 --> 00:31:35.888 but not saying. 697 00:31:36.130 --> 00:31:37.252 people what they need to do. 698 00:31:37.391 --> 00:31:39.353 And whereas intrusive really sounds okay, 699 00:31:39.513 --> 00:31:48.562 the states or the EU are becoming both the mom and also the policeman who's really behind saying you're right or you're wrong. 700 00:31:49.023 --> 00:31:57.351 So it's interesting to see also this kind of word because it somehow it also shows how polarizing the topic can be. 701 00:31:58.258 --> 00:31:59.758 This year is a huge election year. 702 00:32:00.758 --> 00:32:02.633 We are broadcasting this episode. 703 00:32:03.426 --> 00:32:05.686 One week or 10 days before the 704 00:32:06.086 --> 00:32:10.168 American elections is going to have such an impact on the rest of the world, 705 00:32:10.188 --> 00:32:11.208 the outcome of this election. 706 00:32:11.770 --> 00:32:12.590 And of course, 707 00:32:12.629 --> 00:32:17.668 we are only a few weeks away from COP 29 in Azerbaijan. 708 00:32:17.872 --> 00:32:23.012 So that's also where the New York Climate Week was also a kind of, 709 00:32:23.153 --> 00:32:23.465 let's say, 710 00:32:23.606 --> 00:32:26.075 springboard for what's going to happen in Azerbaijan. 711 00:32:27.543 --> 00:32:28.372 And I would be, 712 00:32:28.934 --> 00:32:30.247 I know that you won't be in Baku, 713 00:32:30.528 --> 00:32:32.512 but I would be really interested in hearing. 714 00:32:33.951 --> 00:32:35.211 What you have heard, 715 00:32:35.493 --> 00:32:39.618 what kind of echo are you getting as well from this kind of big platform? 716 00:32:40.356 --> 00:32:40.879 For instance, 717 00:32:41.282 --> 00:32:42.500 regarding the New York Climate Week, 718 00:32:43.078 --> 00:32:46.883 I've read really super enthusiastic comments. 719 00:32:46.946 --> 00:32:47.688 That's wonderful. 720 00:32:47.782 --> 00:32:49.008 We are all on the same boat. 721 00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:53.414 We are finally realizing we are partnering up with many organizations. 722 00:32:53.430 --> 00:32:54.571 But some of the people were like, 723 00:32:54.727 --> 00:32:54.930 yeah, 724 00:32:55.008 --> 00:32:56.555 but we are actually in an echo chamber. 725 00:32:56.899 --> 00:33:00.899 We need to not to have our conversation happening in New York, 726 00:33:00.961 --> 00:33:02.274 but maybe in Oklahoma. 727 00:33:02.630 --> 00:33:03.250 Because actually, 728 00:33:03.350 --> 00:33:03.850 Oklahoma, 729 00:33:04.210 --> 00:33:04.450 yes, 730 00:33:04.510 --> 00:33:07.351 it's not a very sexy place as New York, 731 00:33:07.491 --> 00:33:09.011 but there is already 60% 732 00:33:09.331 --> 00:33:11.534 of the electricity production that comes from renewables. 733 00:33:11.855 --> 00:33:14.433 So we should have a conversation out there. 734 00:33:14.691 --> 00:33:15.816 How do we balance it? 735 00:33:15.894 --> 00:33:17.253 What are your kind of takes? 736 00:33:17.909 --> 00:33:21.581 Is the New York Climate Week really the springboard it wants to be? 737 00:33:23.441 --> 00:33:23.581 Yeah, 738 00:33:23.816 --> 00:33:24.659 it's a really good question. 739 00:33:24.909 --> 00:33:26.472 And I haven't been there for the whole week. 740 00:33:26.534 --> 00:33:29.472 I'm not equipped to answer because it is so huge. 741 00:33:29.894 --> 00:33:30.503 Even trying, 742 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:30.863 honestly, 743 00:33:30.909 --> 00:33:32.144 to arrange the schedule. 744 00:33:32.879 --> 00:33:35.721 for my sort of free time was very challenging. 745 00:33:35.760 --> 00:33:37.405 I could have spent a whole week just reading the agenda. 746 00:33:37.424 --> 00:33:37.725 Honestly, 747 00:33:37.784 --> 00:33:40.405 there are thousands and thousands of events. 748 00:33:40.530 --> 00:33:41.889 I think if it is an echo chamber, 749 00:33:41.890 --> 00:33:46.975 it is a very large echo chamber because just the scale of the number of events, 750 00:33:47.233 --> 00:33:49.217 the scale of the individual events themselves. 751 00:33:49.702 --> 00:33:51.717 I did so from the bit that I saw. 752 00:33:51.764 --> 00:33:52.139 And of course, 753 00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:52.452 obviously, 754 00:33:52.780 --> 00:33:55.155 my bias is I was heading to a lot of the energy justice events, 755 00:33:55.202 --> 00:33:56.155 which sort of tended to be, 756 00:33:56.202 --> 00:33:56.483 I think, 757 00:33:56.546 --> 00:33:58.905 outside of the big kind of conference centers. 758 00:33:59.378 --> 00:34:04.724 But what I did say when I popped into those centres is a huge professionalisation of climate, 759 00:34:04.943 --> 00:34:09.126 not a very big corporate business-led event, 760 00:34:10.110 --> 00:34:10.970 very professional. 761 00:34:11.368 --> 00:34:12.189 And of course, 762 00:34:12.212 --> 00:34:13.571 it's the same week as the UN 763 00:34:13.931 --> 00:34:14.517 General Assembly. 764 00:34:14.556 --> 00:34:16.407 So there's a big international focus as well. 765 00:34:16.798 --> 00:34:17.954 I think all that to say, 766 00:34:18.017 --> 00:34:18.173 yes, 767 00:34:19.735 --> 00:34:23.579 there are a huge number of people working in this space. 768 00:34:23.985 --> 00:34:25.626 And there is clear, 769 00:34:25.704 --> 00:34:28.532 there was representation from across the whole world. 770 00:34:28.829 --> 00:34:28.954 and 771 00:34:29.154 --> 00:34:30.575 And I was really struck. 772 00:34:30.896 --> 00:34:31.617 Given that this is an 773 00:34:32.098 --> 00:34:33.938 NGO-led sort of event, 774 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:36.860 there was a huge sort of corporate presence. 775 00:34:36.903 --> 00:34:37.024 So... 776 00:34:37.573 --> 00:34:39.014 I felt sort of cross-sectorally, 777 00:34:39.354 --> 00:34:41.716 there was a lot of groundswell from the corporate sector. 778 00:34:41.798 --> 00:34:42.157 And of course, 779 00:34:42.158 --> 00:34:42.919 we've seen that before. 780 00:34:42.958 --> 00:34:43.477 You and I, 781 00:34:43.520 --> 00:34:43.841 Marina, 782 00:34:44.380 --> 00:34:47.181 are long enough to have seen this from the oil and gas companies, 783 00:34:47.423 --> 00:34:49.727 decided to rebrand and then go straight back again. 784 00:34:49.845 --> 00:34:51.165 Always played with a little bit of caution, 785 00:34:51.509 --> 00:34:54.806 but I did see significant sort of positive movement. 786 00:34:55.024 --> 00:34:57.618 But as you've all also alluded, 787 00:34:57.649 --> 00:35:00.056 elections can turn things left and right. 788 00:35:00.352 --> 00:35:04.618 I think that's another reason why kind of focusing on businesses and what they can do. 789 00:35:05.217 --> 00:35:08.941 and the huge kind of power they hold to shift whole markets. 790 00:35:09.460 --> 00:35:10.081 And just to reflect, 791 00:35:10.082 --> 00:35:11.745 I thought it was really interesting you picked up on that word, 792 00:35:12.023 --> 00:35:12.726 intrusive. 793 00:35:13.085 --> 00:35:14.206 I think we've got to be honest. 794 00:35:14.425 --> 00:35:16.285 I think that's what I learned from the negotiations, 795 00:35:16.347 --> 00:35:16.730 actually. 796 00:35:16.745 --> 00:35:20.574 I think we have to be honest about what this means for people. 797 00:35:21.316 --> 00:35:23.191 And if policies are going to ask people to do things, 798 00:35:23.613 --> 00:35:24.722 we need to be clear about that. 799 00:35:25.175 --> 00:35:26.363 I work a lot on regulations, 800 00:35:26.364 --> 00:35:29.238 and I don't see regulations as a big kind of stick. 801 00:35:29.657 --> 00:35:32.339 as in the old-fashioned idea of how you create an innovation or a change, 802 00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:38.003 the regulation comes in at the end after all the incentives and the voluntary action to hit the people who are just not going to do it. 803 00:35:38.323 --> 00:35:39.909 I don't see regulations as that tool. 804 00:35:40.026 --> 00:35:46.058 I feel like regulations are a clear communication signposting tool to tell everyone where we need to be heading. 805 00:35:46.308 --> 00:35:52.386 But without being honest with everyone about where we're heading and about the things they are going to need to do, 806 00:35:52.901 --> 00:35:54.495 then I don't think we're going to succeed. 807 00:35:55.276 --> 00:35:57.823 And the other outcome is if we are being... 808 00:35:58.029 --> 00:36:01.413 honest about how inclusive or significant the policies are, 809 00:36:01.693 --> 00:36:02.632 then it ensures, 810 00:36:02.675 --> 00:36:03.296 it doesn't ensure, 811 00:36:03.316 --> 00:36:07.640 but it encourages us to think far more about how people achieve that. 812 00:36:08.101 --> 00:36:10.359 If we get a clear picture of what people are being asked to do, 813 00:36:10.843 --> 00:36:14.648 we can then start the more complex work of who can achieve that on their own, 814 00:36:14.991 --> 00:36:15.945 who needs support, 815 00:36:16.429 --> 00:36:17.773 who's going to be left behind, 816 00:36:17.945 --> 00:36:22.132 and how do we stop that impacting the people who are already disadvantaged. 817 00:36:22.597 --> 00:36:22.717 Yeah, 818 00:36:22.777 --> 00:36:23.658 that's really interesting. 819 00:36:23.659 --> 00:36:24.999 We get back to the carrot, 820 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:26.140 the stick and the timber in, 821 00:36:26.300 --> 00:36:30.025 which is the role of regulation and of policymakers in general. 822 00:36:30.224 --> 00:36:31.665 That's really super interesting. 823 00:36:31.705 --> 00:36:33.087 I think we could go on for hours, 824 00:36:33.150 --> 00:36:36.009 but actually we are reaching the end of the show. 825 00:36:36.548 --> 00:36:37.673 And but yeah, 826 00:36:37.915 --> 00:36:38.251 Louise, 827 00:36:38.376 --> 00:36:41.033 if there is something you would like to add really at this stage, 828 00:36:41.220 --> 00:36:49.908 really reflecting on the New York Climate Week and your experience on energy equity and really blind spots and structural inequalities. 829 00:36:49.986 --> 00:36:51.642 I found it really super interesting that 830 00:36:52.117 --> 00:37:04.707 Just the fact that now we have the tools to bridge some gaps and identify some gray areas that we can see that there are some ways to balance immediate and long term solutions that we can get inspired by other countries. 831 00:37:05.168 --> 00:37:06.168 But at the same time, 832 00:37:06.270 --> 00:37:09.410 no one is going fast enough. 833 00:37:09.441 --> 00:37:09.629 Right. 834 00:37:09.801 --> 00:37:09.957 Yeah, 835 00:37:10.098 --> 00:37:13.598 it's I think as a result of negotiations and then my experience last week, 836 00:37:13.832 --> 00:37:16.613 I would or in the last week from where we're recording is. 837 00:37:16.797 --> 00:37:16.917 That, 838 00:37:16.918 --> 00:37:17.277 of course, 839 00:37:17.357 --> 00:37:18.117 right now in Europe, 840 00:37:18.118 --> 00:37:20.197 I think we really do need to focus on implementation. 841 00:37:20.198 --> 00:37:21.277 You already alluded to that. 842 00:37:21.316 --> 00:37:22.879 There's a new commission coming in. 843 00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:24.359 So it's a new agenda. 844 00:37:24.437 --> 00:37:27.722 I think many of the new agendas do look very supportive to this. 845 00:37:27.761 --> 00:37:28.996 So that's very good. 846 00:37:29.277 --> 00:37:33.027 But it really is focusing on implementation and not being distracted. 847 00:37:33.465 --> 00:37:36.074 But then I think for the next iteration of what do we do, 848 00:37:36.183 --> 00:37:40.902 this will not be the last effort we have on achieving social justice in Europe. 849 00:37:40.918 --> 00:37:41.277 We will. 850 00:37:41.340 --> 00:37:43.324 There's a lot more to do for work. 851 00:37:43.683 --> 00:37:44.199 So for that, 852 00:37:44.543 --> 00:37:45.668 I think we need to be focusing. 853 00:37:45.885 --> 00:37:48.185 as much outside of Europe to learn, 854 00:37:48.365 --> 00:37:49.926 to think about our impacts, 855 00:37:50.066 --> 00:37:52.625 to understand in a broader sense what we're missing. 856 00:37:53.008 --> 00:37:54.730 That's where I'd be looking for the future as well. 857 00:37:55.683 --> 00:37:56.707 I really love that. 858 00:37:56.871 --> 00:37:58.191 It's so inspiring. 859 00:37:58.449 --> 00:38:04.191 And please tune in for the next episodes of Energetic because it's exactly the kind of conversations we will have. 860 00:38:04.504 --> 00:38:05.504 So thank you so much, 861 00:38:05.629 --> 00:38:06.004 Huwies. 862 00:38:06.504 --> 00:38:07.848 Thank you for your insights. 863 00:38:08.176 --> 00:38:08.910 As always, 864 00:38:09.066 --> 00:38:11.894 I really enjoy this conversation and how 865 00:38:12.337 --> 00:38:12.997 Transparency, 866 00:38:13.317 --> 00:38:19.980 you try to be with the complexities of the energy markets and really making it deliver for everyone. 867 00:38:20.058 --> 00:38:20.582 And yes, 868 00:38:21.496 --> 00:38:22.761 what is your next paper about? 869 00:38:24.058 --> 00:38:24.183 Oh, 870 00:38:24.261 --> 00:38:24.636 thank you. 871 00:38:25.183 --> 00:38:27.363 I'm not doing a very good job at the promotion. 872 00:38:27.824 --> 00:38:27.941 Yes, 873 00:38:28.019 --> 00:38:33.340 so the last paper is probably the one I'd like to signpost everyone to just publish over the summer, 874 00:38:33.386 --> 00:38:41.871 which is trying to do the service to implementers at national level to really map out this framework that we know different directors get. 875 00:38:42.025 --> 00:38:42.946 implemented in silos. 876 00:38:43.086 --> 00:38:43.747 Quite naturally, 877 00:38:44.008 --> 00:38:44.927 this is the way that happens. 878 00:38:44.928 --> 00:38:47.172 There are different ministries in charge. 879 00:38:47.531 --> 00:38:47.953 But actually, 880 00:38:48.133 --> 00:38:50.836 if you were a civil society body or an implementer, 881 00:38:51.297 --> 00:38:56.476 my paper kind of gives you the visual of how this all fits together or how I think it all fits together. 882 00:38:56.883 --> 00:38:57.078 Yes. 883 00:38:57.101 --> 00:38:58.523 And that's what I would like to point people to. 884 00:38:58.601 --> 00:39:03.429 There's also some kind of useful guidance in there on the big questions we keep getting asked about kind of energy poverty alleviation, 885 00:39:03.461 --> 00:39:05.304 like how do we find people in energy poverty? 886 00:39:05.305 --> 00:39:05.945 How do we target? 887 00:39:06.164 --> 00:39:07.195 How do we get started? 888 00:39:07.445 --> 00:39:08.304 Because unfortunately, 889 00:39:08.305 --> 00:39:08.914 for many countries, 890 00:39:08.929 --> 00:39:10.898 this is we're still on the starting line. 891 00:39:11.641 --> 00:39:15.783 We are still on the starting line and the road is long and very bumpy, 892 00:39:15.986 --> 00:39:17.889 but luckily we have people like you on board. 893 00:39:18.248 --> 00:39:18.869 Thank you so much, 894 00:39:18.967 --> 00:39:19.189 Louise. 895 00:39:20.854 --> 00:39:23.814 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. 896 00:39:24.072 --> 00:39:31.916 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. 897 00:39:32.596 --> 00:39:33.477 I'm Maureen Canales, 898 00:39:33.577 --> 00:39:36.379 your host from Policy Consultancy and Next Energy Consumer, 899 00:39:36.762 --> 00:39:40.223 and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, 900 00:39:40.605 --> 00:39:42.723 our knowledgeable 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