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Okay.
Why is hiring the first marketer critical for startups?
It really is a make or break kind of hire.
I would say it's either going to drive success or it's going to be complete chaos if you have the wrong first marketer.
for the startup but also for the marketer in what sense why do you think it's so challenging to hire the first marketer marketing today is so complex there's just so many different roles so many different specialties no marketer no marketer can be expert in everything it's actually impossible it's i
i know none you have growth marketers you have product marketers you have all sorts of marketers it can be very difficult to one find that
person,
but then also decide what is it that you actually really need,
because you need to understand what you need and then be able to look for that.
Most of the time,
I'd say founders will hire a
Swiss army knife marketer that kind of does a bit of everything,
but you know,
or has one strong specialty,
but they don't actually know themselves what they actually need.
So they might not actually be looking for the right profiles.
Yeah,
absolutely.
If we do an example,
I'm definitely a generalist,
but I have more of a marketing.
Ops,
growth,
marketing specialty,
whereas you,
so I'm also generous,
but more a product marketing focus,
which is why we're a great combo.
Yes,
ultimate combo.
And so yeah,
and then obviously for founders,
sometimes,
because usually if you're going to look for your first market or your early stage startup,
I would assume,
therefore limited budgets,
sometimes limited resources,
which can make it very hard to attract that top talent as well.
So that also adds on to the challenge.
And I think we've both experienced this,
but also unclear expectations,
because I think exactly what you said earlier,
like sometimes they think they know what they need,
but actually,
as they do the hire,
they find out that actually they want something else.
Or actually the company evolves very quickly because it's a fast paced environment.
It always is.
So you have to be able to bounce back quite quickly.
And it can be very difficult to redefine what the role actually is,
or it can evolve down the road as well.
Those are the challenging parts,
but like what are some common mistakes,
I guess,
founders make when they're hiring their first marketer?
You would want someone with startup background.
I don't think it's necessary because actually we both entered the startup world without actually having startup experience.
But I do like the idea of someone who you know would have the soft skills to adapt to the startup world.
Because we talk about the hard skills,
soft skills,
which is very important.
And in terms of every hire,
same for marketers,
you need someone who's going to have that startup kind of adaptability.
But I think,
yeah,
that's where it made me.
company or culture fit is more important than the skills themselves like if you can see that the marketer is agile it can adapt really quickly and i think that's more important yeah and i think one of the other really big mistakes and we've seen many times and we've also experienced it ourselves is oh you feel the pain is a overloading that's higher because obviously again we said marketing is so complex there's so much student marketing that there's a tendency of expecting
everything to happen to do everything and it's only one person sometimes don't even have the resource right they don't even have freelancers they don't have a budget they don't have budget and yet they have to do a thousand million things and then founders get frustrated because the quality is not there but like how can you expect quality when there's actually too much to do like you need to be trusting that marketer to understand what the priorities are and to keep focus on those priorities versus trying to do a thousand things and then you're actually overwhelming that marketer who ends up actually
doing subpar work burning out and burning out so how would let's think about founders how would they hire that first marketer what are the steps they should take i think we kind of touched on it already but the first thing is really understand what is it that you really need what you think is going to move the needle this is the first marketing hire therefore you're kind of in the early stage what is going to move the needle what is it that your startup really really needs yeah
Are you struggling with positioning?
Are you struggling with growth or sales?
Or like you need to really pinpoint that first priority.
And that will actually help you then define what would be the ideal first marketer you need.
Because then you can focus on that core.
And as you scale,
that person can probably adapt or they'll get the proper resources in place.
But at least you'll be able to start strong.
Yeah.
And build very strong foundations to start with,
which is very key to any marketing function,
obviously.
And then.
Set clear expectations for that person.
If you're creating a job title,
it shouldn't be a generic marketing job title.
Like you need to describe the role,
the outcomes that you're looking for,
the success metrics for that marketer.
I mean,
that's in a very ideal world,
but let's be very honest.
Early stage startup,
like you can have success metrics,
but those evolve all the time.
Or you end up actually just like kind of going with the flow.
So also need to be realistic.
Well,
that's the startup.
Like you need to.
be agile.
So,
but just to give an idea to the marketer what is expected.
Yeah.
Like if you're putting crazy success metrics and that person knows not to apply,
apply realistic success metrics,
knowing that that will probably evolve and probably will evolve because of that person being brought on board and actually being able to tell you like,
actually this is,
but at least needs to be aligned.
Yeah.
What is training?
challenges are and what is it that you need to to make the goals we kind of touched upon it a little bit earlier but what what to look for in like that perfect marketer that first hire well like you said like i think one thing is that's important in in that person is like the startup mindset like if you see that that person has already worked at a startup or has kind of like entrepreneurial background you know that that person will be kind of scrappy or know
how to you
you know roll with the punches look for a marketer that's potentially has a lot of skills but definitely strong expertise in the areas that are very critical to what you need right now versus hiring for what it what you will need in the future like that makes no sense like you shouldn't be doing that how would you lead
the interviews to make sure that that person is the right fit one of the things that i've seen the past that has worked both founders and i obviously was hired this way was like giving practical
assignments like exercises to get paid by the way no one should work for free pretty much giving them assignments i'll use one example the past job i had as a head of marketing actually i was hired based on running a campaign that was the assignment and i actually got hired because i told them that was a really bad idea they asked me to do this mock-up of how i would go about this campaign and what i ended up giving back to them was like actually you shouldn't be doing this this is going to be a waste of time and it's going to be a waste of money
Because I did the research and it makes no sense to run this campaign.
Actually,
you should do this instead.
And that's actually how I got hired to this date with the founder that actually hired me.
Like,
that was so key for him because he was like,
I know that I'm going to be hiring someone who thinks like me.
It's not just going and executing whatever is being told to execute,
but will actually question the exercise,
not just execute the exercise.
And I think that's giving practical exercises.
is a great way to do that.
He told me this,
but other candidates,
a lot of them just went and did the exercise where
I stood out because I was like,
actually,
that exercise makes no sense.
They didn't do this on purpose.
It was just kind of like the context.
Yeah.
Where would you find those top marketers?
Where would you post your job?
Well,
obviously,
like one really obvious one is LinkedIn.
Yeah.
So like using your network.
As a founder,
if you're looking for that person,
like you should be tapping into your network.
Like that's key.
Like in everything we do today,
network is so important.
And if they don't,
if they don't find it that way,
then obviously just using this normal job supports things.
But also I'm actually thinking like something that's really up and coming right now is all those marketing communities now have jobs and they actually vet people.
So there's a lot of platforms now today that like pre-vet candidates for startups.
So that's also a good way to do that.
Yeah.
Actually,
I'm thinking.
If you have a job looking for a top marketer and you sponsor a marketing newsletter,
then you know that the marketer is already subscribed to a newsletter.
They're trying to up-level their skills.
And so if you're putting that job description in there,
then you're likely to find marketers that are top level.
How would you attract top talent on a startup budget?
Like,
how would you go about it?
There are some key things that you should offer,
like flexible hours.
If somebody wants to work in a startup,
it's not just about the money,
obviously.
And so if they're probably looking for that flexibility and just trust,
basically,
they're going to get the job done.
I'm going to use the same example,
but the last job I was in,
I was working for a startup and I actually ended up taking a pay cut to work in that startup.
What you said,
it's not about the money.
I was really excited about joining that startup and that team.
It was about the mission,
what they were trying to achieve,
the team that was part of that startup.
And then obviously then just the fact that it was the way they were.
looking to work together.
Like it was not about just working,
it was about having fun as well and very keen on that work-life balance.
I remember it was a conversation I had with the founder where I was like,
I don't work best doing nine to five.
I work best when I work my own times and I'm going to be very productive.
Whether it's,
if it's a Sunday night,
then it will be a Sunday night.
If it has to be,
and that's really dependent on people,
but I know that that's very key versus expecting someone to just have like set hours.
People are not productive from nine to five.
No,
definitely not.
Especially marketers.
It's a job that...
requires creativity to some extent.
And so having those flexible hours and environment and whatnot,
it's definitely key in today's world.
If you're looking for a nine to five marketer,
then you should not be building this in sort of a profit way.
That's a very strong opinion.
I love it.
But I think what you said is super key,
like selling the vision,
like they're just looking for a marketer to do the job and not care about the mission or what you're trying to build,
that's a huge issue.
I mean.
As a marketer,
I want to care about the thing that I'm working on.
I want to actually feel like it's a solution to an actual problem.
And then the third thing is equity.
With equity,
you get a bit of skin in the game to some extent.
At least you can kind of see it this way,
right?
If the startup does well.
than the person does well.
It's extra motivation for the marketer to do something really cool.
How would you go about retaining those people?
Marketing is one of the roles that has the highest turnover in startups.
I think it's very important to just highlight that it works both ways.
It's like,
one,
retaining the marketer because the marketer wants to leave,
but also sometimes because you made that wrong hire that we chatted about earlier,
then you end up having that turnover as well.
It's both things.
I think giving the right resources to that marketer,
basically,
because I think one of the reasons why I left most of the companies that I...
I left is because I don't have resources.
Either I don't have the right budget or they don't want to put the time and energy in marketing,
but they're not ready to do the proper investment in marketing,
which is very important.
Marketing is an investment.
And if you don't have money to invest,
then as a marketer,
it's very quickly limited.
And it's frustrating to work with small budgets.
I've been with startups that literally have very little budget.
And yeah,
you have to be scrappy and you can do things like if it's a small time frame.
Yeah,
you can be scrappy for a while,
but it can't.
last forever.
Let's be clear,
startups,
I think they're going to scale,
but then they're waiting to put the money to scale.
And also,
I think one key thing is not being available for that marketer.
Like if you're a founder and you've hired somebody,
like you need to make sure that you are present here to get feedback and give time for that marketer.
If you're just expecting them to just roll by themselves.
And I agree,
like,
yes,
they need to be able to take charge,
but you still need to be there.
If they're going to create content,
they need.
availability from the team.
They need availability from the founders.
Yeah,
exactly.
It's not a one-man show.
Be willing to invest in skills as well,
right?
Especially in marketing,
like things are changing so fast.
If you want to stay up to date as a startup,
you kind of want to roll with the trends,
then you need a marketer that can up-level their skills.
So where are we trying to get to as a conclusion?
I think the best hires that you can make in marketing are not necessarily the longest resumes,
the ones with the most experience.
You have to look for some key things in that marketer.
And we can help with that,
right?
If you're looking for that first hire,
your first marketer,
then you can head on to Duo.co and see what we're all about.
See if it's a fit,
long or short term.
No filler,
just answers.
Duo on the mic.
Cheerio.
Oh,
I love Cheerio.