WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.204 --> 00:00:05.828 I was recently at the Regenerative Agriculture European Summit in Amsterdam, 2 00:00:06.128 --> 00:00:12.233 where a lot of interesting people involved in the regenerative space came to talk about the future of Region Ag. 3 00:00:13.174 --> 00:00:17.978 I was given the opportunity to talk to some of them backstage and ask them a few questions. 4 00:00:18.959 --> 00:00:20.460 If you're here listening to this, 5 00:00:20.861 --> 00:00:26.726 you probably already know all about the amazing potential of Region Ag for soil health, 6 00:00:26.846 --> 00:00:27.747 biodiversity, 7 00:00:27.987 --> 00:00:29.008 water cycles for... 8 00:00:29.448 --> 00:00:31.109 resilience and so much more. 9 00:00:31.930 --> 00:00:37.053 And so these conversations are not so much about what Region Ag is, 10 00:00:37.374 --> 00:00:39.755 but more about where do we go from here? 11 00:00:40.276 --> 00:00:42.617 How do we speed up the global transition to Region Ag? 12 00:00:43.038 --> 00:00:43.858 How do we make it? 13 00:00:44.919 --> 00:00:45.679 Not the exception, 14 00:00:45.1000 --> 00:00:46.520 but the norm. 15 00:00:47.861 --> 00:00:51.223 My first guest in this mini-series is Michael Kavanagh, 16 00:00:51.744 --> 00:00:55.907 a farmer who spent the last 10 years successfully transitioning his almost 17 00:00:56.347 --> 00:00:57.828 700 hectare farm. 18 00:00:58.308 --> 00:00:59.990 to an advanced regenerative system. 19 00:01:01.111 --> 00:01:03.775 This episode was made in partnership with Soul Capital. 20 00:01:04.355 --> 00:01:05.016 I am your host, 21 00:01:05.216 --> 00:01:05.697 Raphael, 22 00:01:06.198 --> 00:01:07.960 and this is the Deep Seat Podcast. 23 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:16.481 Hi Michael, 24 00:01:17.161 --> 00:01:20.104 the first question I wanted to ask you is quite simply, 25 00:01:20.885 --> 00:01:23.087 how would you define regenerative agriculture? 26 00:01:24.007 --> 00:01:27.410 So defining regenerative agriculture is a really difficult thing to do. 27 00:01:28.431 --> 00:01:28.812 However, 28 00:01:29.092 --> 00:01:31.394 the overwhelming theme that all of us, 29 00:01:31.454 --> 00:01:35.478 whether you're just stepping onto the regen journey or you've been on it for years, 30 00:01:35.618 --> 00:01:40.903 is essentially reversing the decline that humans have undeniably put this planet into. 31 00:01:41.463 --> 00:01:42.064 So it's... 32 00:01:42.304 --> 00:01:43.284 capturing more carbon, 33 00:01:43.345 --> 00:01:44.285 putting it into your soils, 34 00:01:44.345 --> 00:01:45.806 helping with nature recovery. 35 00:01:46.326 --> 00:01:47.066 If at first, 36 00:01:47.086 --> 00:01:48.027 in the first instance, 37 00:01:48.027 --> 00:01:49.627 we stop damaging the planet, 38 00:01:49.687 --> 00:01:50.868 that's a really good start. 39 00:01:51.348 --> 00:01:53.129 If we then start to heal the planet, 40 00:01:53.269 --> 00:01:56.411 then that is what I would define as a regenerative system. 41 00:01:57.191 --> 00:02:01.533 So healing instead of damaging or regenerating instead of degrading. 42 00:02:03.534 --> 00:02:08.236 What are the benefits that farmers can expect from transitioning to regenerative agriculture? 43 00:02:09.256 --> 00:02:09.476 Sure, 44 00:02:09.516 --> 00:02:19.020 so I've now been farming regeneratively on my farm for 10 years and the net result of that is my farm has become far more resilient. 45 00:02:19.100 --> 00:02:22.222 So this year in the UK we've had one of the wettest winters on record, 46 00:02:22.422 --> 00:02:24.383 it's been awful for growing crops. 47 00:02:24.883 --> 00:02:30.365 But actually my home farm has given us excellent yields with minimal input. 48 00:02:30.485 --> 00:02:31.606 So we've had 49 00:02:32.026 --> 00:02:36.888 10 tonnes to the hectare in our feed wheat with 160 kilograms of nitrogen. 50 00:02:37.428 --> 00:02:38.868 and no fungicides, 51 00:02:38.888 --> 00:02:39.909 no insecticides. 52 00:02:40.049 --> 00:02:40.909 I could go on and on. 53 00:02:41.409 --> 00:02:47.731 A farm that we've only been on for two years has given us a yield of six tonnes to the hectare. 54 00:02:47.811 --> 00:02:49.531 So four tonnes to the hectare less, 55 00:02:49.871 --> 00:02:53.012 that's basically 800 pounds a hectare less income for the farmer. 56 00:02:53.352 --> 00:02:55.333 It's also cost me more to grow that crop. 57 00:02:56.213 --> 00:03:01.915 And that's because those soils haven't got the resilience in them that I've built in over 10 years onto the home farm. 58 00:03:02.415 --> 00:03:06.456 So farmers can expect less input, 59 00:03:06.656 --> 00:03:07.136 more output. 60 00:03:07.256 --> 00:03:07.556 output. 61 00:03:08.036 --> 00:03:10.998 And the other benefit on the side of it, 62 00:03:10.978 --> 00:03:12.318 the happy consequence of it, 63 00:03:12.338 --> 00:03:15.040 is we've now got biodiversity thriving on our farm. 64 00:03:15.780 --> 00:03:18.361 I never set out to improve biodiversity, 65 00:03:18.942 --> 00:03:22.543 but the fact of the matter is biodiversity is now measurably improving. 66 00:03:22.583 --> 00:03:29.046 I have bird ringers come in and catch and put identification rings on the birds on our farm. 67 00:03:29.126 --> 00:03:30.487 We've got feeding stations, 68 00:03:30.487 --> 00:03:32.088 we do thermal imaging of birds. 69 00:03:32.908 --> 00:03:33.588 A few weeks ago, 70 00:03:33.648 --> 00:03:36.930 we were catching barn owls and wringing them from owl boxes. 71 00:03:37.530 --> 00:03:40.091 And that's a happy consequence of the farming system. 72 00:03:40.191 --> 00:03:40.611 And actually, 73 00:03:40.631 --> 00:03:41.192 that's great. 74 00:03:41.232 --> 00:03:43.072 It's really good for everyone on the farm to see. 75 00:03:44.493 --> 00:03:51.436 It's really nice to know that you're doing something for nature alongside producing high quantities of high quality food. 76 00:03:52.837 --> 00:03:53.737 Listening to you here, 77 00:03:54.217 --> 00:03:55.178 it just sounds amazing, 78 00:03:55.258 --> 00:03:55.518 right? 79 00:03:56.418 --> 00:03:59.419 You have these birds and biodiversity coming back onto the farm. 80 00:04:00.180 --> 00:04:00.720 You have... 81 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:01.700 less inputs, 82 00:04:01.740 --> 00:04:02.580 but more outputs, 83 00:04:02.661 --> 00:04:05.341 which I guess means higher profits. 84 00:04:05.921 --> 00:04:08.022 So if it's so great, 85 00:04:08.062 --> 00:04:09.042 if it's so much better, 86 00:04:09.823 --> 00:04:14.004 why are so few farmers transitioning to region ag at present time? 87 00:04:14.124 --> 00:04:16.244 What is holding back the other farmers? 88 00:04:17.025 --> 00:04:17.205 Yeah, 89 00:04:17.245 --> 00:04:20.586 I think the main hurdles to transitioning to regenerative agriculture are, 90 00:04:20.826 --> 00:04:20.966 well, 91 00:04:21.426 --> 00:04:23.586 the big one for me is a mindset change. 92 00:04:24.547 --> 00:04:25.247 I'm fortunate, 93 00:04:25.327 --> 00:04:26.947 I'm not from a farming background, 94 00:04:27.588 --> 00:04:28.388 so I've got no... 95 00:04:28.948 --> 00:04:31.210 I've got no parents looking over my shoulder saying, 96 00:04:31.290 --> 00:04:31.410 oh, 97 00:04:31.410 --> 00:04:32.330 I wouldn't do it like that. 98 00:04:32.991 --> 00:04:36.653 I have freedom to express myself as a first generation farmer. 99 00:04:37.074 --> 00:04:37.434 And actually, 100 00:04:37.434 --> 00:04:38.355 that's a big hurdle, 101 00:04:38.415 --> 00:04:40.736 certainly in the UK of a lot of farmers. 102 00:04:42.197 --> 00:04:44.579 And it's very much a mindset change. 103 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:53.165 But the popularity of regenerative farming and farming more sustainably is certainly growing at a rapid pace. 104 00:04:53.525 --> 00:04:56.367 You've only got to look at conferences such as Groundswell in the UK, 105 00:04:56.607 --> 00:04:57.348 which has gone from... 106 00:04:57.752 --> 00:05:01.976 200 people 10 years ago to 8,000 people over two days that it is now. 107 00:05:02.916 --> 00:05:18.189 Actually that mindset is changing and the more farmers go out there and tell other farmers what they're doing then the better because as we've already mentioned the farmers listen to other farmers and they learn from other farmers more than anyone else. 108 00:05:18.510 --> 00:05:19.951 I certainly have done in my journey. 109 00:05:23.507 --> 00:05:23.647 Yeah, 110 00:05:23.667 --> 00:05:25.649 so the mindset change is a massive one, 111 00:05:26.009 --> 00:05:26.470 I hear you. 112 00:05:27.150 --> 00:05:29.492 But what about the economic aspect? 113 00:05:30.493 --> 00:05:35.097 I often hear that it takes a lot of investments to transition and that could be a big hurdle. 114 00:05:35.297 --> 00:05:44.925 And also some farmers might be afraid of a potential J-curve where their yields and profits drop a little bit at first before it goes back up. 115 00:05:45.565 --> 00:05:46.166 So yeah, 116 00:05:46.206 --> 00:05:47.046 what do you think about that? 117 00:05:48.267 --> 00:05:48.407 Yeah, 118 00:05:48.467 --> 00:05:48.828 sure. 119 00:05:49.168 --> 00:05:49.428 And 120 00:05:50.009 --> 00:05:50.389 I said, 121 00:05:51.090 --> 00:05:52.170 as I was talking earlier, 122 00:05:52.231 --> 00:05:52.391 that... 123 00:05:52.871 --> 00:05:53.891 Rome wasn't built in a day, 124 00:05:53.931 --> 00:05:55.192 there's no silver bullet to this. 125 00:05:55.872 --> 00:05:56.212 However, 126 00:05:56.272 --> 00:05:58.473 it doesn't have to be done with a J curve, 127 00:05:58.533 --> 00:05:59.053 as you say. 128 00:06:00.013 --> 00:06:00.413 And actually, 129 00:06:00.413 --> 00:06:03.794 the important thing is easing yourself into a regenerative system. 130 00:06:04.354 --> 00:06:09.856 Don't just go out and buy a zero-till drill because people think that zero-till is the be-all and end-all. 131 00:06:09.916 --> 00:06:10.656 It's really not. 132 00:06:11.016 --> 00:06:17.738 You can be doing lots of other things that just slowly transitions your current system into a more regenerative one. 133 00:06:18.058 --> 00:06:19.418 And by doing things slowly, 134 00:06:19.498 --> 00:06:21.979 you can ensure that the financial... 135 00:06:22.747 --> 00:06:22.987 You know, 136 00:06:22.967 --> 00:06:26.369 you can ensure that you keep a grip on the financials of your farm going forward. 137 00:06:27.249 --> 00:06:34.112 So it is a tricky one and it's about knowledge sharing and going slowly with things and seeing what works for you, 138 00:06:34.572 --> 00:06:37.133 what works for your mindset and what works for your farm. 139 00:06:37.674 --> 00:06:40.575 My mindset's changed massively over the last 10 years, 140 00:06:40.835 --> 00:06:42.416 but that's been a gradual process. 141 00:06:43.316 --> 00:06:43.916 10 years ago, 142 00:06:43.996 --> 00:06:46.637 if you'd have asked me if I'd have been farming the way I'm farming now, 143 00:06:46.677 --> 00:06:48.138 I'd have laughed at you and said, 144 00:06:48.378 --> 00:06:49.419 no way in a million years, 145 00:06:49.499 --> 00:06:50.299 but here I am. 146 00:06:51.691 --> 00:06:58.057 The climate has started to change already noticeably and we know that it's going to change a lot more in the coming decades. 147 00:06:59.438 --> 00:07:03.401 Whether it's with extended dry periods or really wet periods, 148 00:07:04.202 --> 00:07:05.703 it's going to be an issue for farming. 149 00:07:05.983 --> 00:07:06.224 And 150 00:07:06.584 --> 00:07:11.348 I'm wondering how you perceive the importance of resilience as a farmer. 151 00:07:12.029 --> 00:07:12.169 Yeah, 152 00:07:12.289 --> 00:07:16.893 resilience is absolutely crucial in farming and resilience of our soils is crucial. 153 00:07:17.774 --> 00:07:18.014 You know, 154 00:07:17.994 --> 00:07:19.455 to speak on a... 155 00:07:19.535 --> 00:07:22.497 personal level with our farm at home or the farm that I manage, 156 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:26.161 our organic matter has increased. 157 00:07:26.161 --> 00:07:39.552 You know we've gone from two and a half percent as an average organic matter to 3.25 percent over a six year period and what that does is for every 0.1 percent increase in organic matter that increases my water holding capacity by 158 00:07:40.012 --> 00:07:42.154 16,000 liters per hectare. 159 00:07:42.734 --> 00:07:48.199 So do the maths on that quickly that's over 100,000 liters of extra water holding capacity per hectare that I've got. 160 00:07:48.643 --> 00:07:55.109 That means that my soils in a drought year will hold on to that water and make those crops grow and make those crops yield more. 161 00:07:55.469 --> 00:08:10.241 It also means that my infiltration rates are far far far far better so that when we have a wet year like we've just had my soils will get rid of that water and the crops and the roots will stay in an oxygenated soil so they can still grow. 162 00:08:10.782 --> 00:08:16.687 So you know as a result it's another thing that's really shown this year the resilience of my farm how well 163 00:08:17.363 --> 00:08:22.627 Wheats and things have yielded on the farm is a reflection on how I've built resilience into that farm. 164 00:08:23.087 --> 00:08:23.608 As I've said, 165 00:08:24.148 --> 00:08:25.970 the farm that we've only been on for two years, 166 00:08:26.070 --> 00:08:29.372 results off that farm have been pretty terrible in comparison. 167 00:08:30.173 --> 00:08:40.500 And it's a really black and white picture of how I have already built resilience into the farm and how important it is going forward because there's no doubt that our climate is changing. 168 00:08:41.121 --> 00:08:44.283 We're getting more and more extreme weather events year on year. 169 00:08:45.131 --> 00:08:45.591 Amazing. 170 00:08:45.891 --> 00:08:47.392 That's really encouraging to hear. 171 00:08:49.453 --> 00:08:58.897 What would be your number one message to policymakers in order to support a transition to regenerative agriculture and to support the farmers in that transition? 172 00:09:00.058 --> 00:09:01.238 I think my number one message, 173 00:09:01.278 --> 00:09:03.759 and it's a key theme which keeps coming out, 174 00:09:03.839 --> 00:09:09.462 is that farmers will listen and learn most by talking to other farmers. 175 00:09:09.942 --> 00:09:11.463 So implement things which... 176 00:09:11.779 --> 00:09:15.802 gets farmers who are already implementing regenerative practices on their farms, 177 00:09:16.282 --> 00:09:17.763 get them in front of other farmers, 178 00:09:18.544 --> 00:09:20.765 encourage events such as Groundswell in the UK, 179 00:09:20.985 --> 00:09:30.191 but encourage that knowledge exchange because forcing things down farmers'throats generally makes them dig their heels in, 180 00:09:30.992 --> 00:09:35.455 whereas just knowledge exchange from other farmers I think is the most valuable thing. 181 00:09:35.795 --> 00:09:54.929 and i've learned everything i know i've learned from other farmers and and you know i'm fortunate that i've i've got a fantastic network in the uk of other farmers who are on the end of the phone or or a zoom meeting or whatever where we knock ideas and share ideas and and and importantly share the failures as well as the successes so 182 00:09:54.929 --> 00:10:03.595 um implementing knowledge exchange i think is is really where policy makers ought to be going um there's also an argument to say that um 183 00:10:04.715 --> 00:10:05.335 Implementing, 184 00:10:05.395 --> 00:10:06.356 such as we've done in the UK, 185 00:10:06.496 --> 00:10:12.958 the government has implemented subsidies to try and encourage farmers to dip their toe into more regenerative practices. 186 00:10:13.018 --> 00:10:13.138 So, 187 00:10:13.798 --> 00:10:14.538 for example, 188 00:10:14.939 --> 00:10:16.959 we get paid to not use insecticides, 189 00:10:16.959 --> 00:10:18.420 we get paid to companion crop, 190 00:10:18.420 --> 00:10:19.920 we get paid to grow cover crops. 191 00:10:20.901 --> 00:10:28.303 And actually that's a really good incentive to start making farmers do things that they perhaps otherwise wouldn't have done. 192 00:10:30.144 --> 00:10:32.665 I hope this message will come across to the right ears. 193 00:10:33.625 --> 00:10:35.686 It's really the whole point of this podcast. 194 00:10:35.926 --> 00:10:42.669 It's to share important information like this with as many people as possible and hope that it helps the whole movement move forward. 195 00:10:44.190 --> 00:10:49.112 There's a common narrative that sort of pits nature versus agriculture. 196 00:10:49.752 --> 00:10:52.233 And I was wondering what you think about that. 197 00:10:53.374 --> 00:10:56.215 We do often pitch nature versus agriculture. 198 00:10:56.695 --> 00:10:57.055 However, 199 00:10:57.995 --> 00:10:58.976 what I've... 200 00:10:59.256 --> 00:11:16.483 proved and what many other people have proved and and and farmers have always done is nature can thrive alongside food production um and we know that with an ever expanding population food production is really crucial and um you know nature 201 00:11:16.483 --> 00:11:27.928 and food production can thrive alongside each other so uh fine if there's areas that that of ground that aren't suited to food production that's fine you know put them to nature recovery 202 00:11:28.832 --> 00:11:29.232 However, 203 00:11:29.893 --> 00:11:30.253 as I said, 204 00:11:30.273 --> 00:11:31.613 what I've proved on my farm, 205 00:11:32.334 --> 00:11:33.774 not using insecticides, 206 00:11:33.854 --> 00:11:35.895 starting to make my soil thrive, 207 00:11:36.035 --> 00:11:40.157 our soil is everything and all biodiversity starts with the soil. 208 00:11:42.418 --> 00:11:51.121 We've seen bird numbers increasing on our farm and we can back that up with data, 209 00:11:51.321 --> 00:11:51.821 which is really, 210 00:11:51.841 --> 00:11:52.562 really important. 211 00:11:53.002 --> 00:11:55.903 So if the whole planet started farming that way, 212 00:11:55.963 --> 00:11:57.624 then it would go an awfully long way to 213 00:11:58.324 --> 00:12:00.645 to nature recovery. 214 00:12:00.665 --> 00:12:00.925 For me, 215 00:12:01.565 --> 00:12:04.106 having the opportunity to talk to people like yourself, 216 00:12:04.146 --> 00:12:08.027 to farmers who have managed to become more resilient, 217 00:12:08.267 --> 00:12:09.588 to produce better products, 218 00:12:09.768 --> 00:12:12.569 to lower their use of inputs, 219 00:12:12.729 --> 00:12:15.169 and especially harmful ones like chemical inputs, 220 00:12:15.770 --> 00:12:20.891 who have increased profitability and done all of that while regenerating nature, 221 00:12:21.071 --> 00:12:21.711 ecosystems, 222 00:12:21.751 --> 00:12:22.512 biodiversity, 223 00:12:22.612 --> 00:12:23.072 all of that. 224 00:12:23.856 --> 00:12:25.257 It really fills me with hope. 225 00:12:25.297 --> 00:12:30.039 So thank you so much for what you're doing and for being such a great example. 226 00:12:30.779 --> 00:12:32.359 I have just one last question. 227 00:12:33.580 --> 00:12:36.321 Why did you accept to come as a speaker to this event here, 228 00:12:36.681 --> 00:12:36.801 the 229 00:12:37.381 --> 00:12:40.583 Regenerative Agriculture European Summit in Amsterdam? 230 00:12:41.743 --> 00:12:43.104 What do you hope to achieve? 231 00:12:44.064 --> 00:12:44.264 Yeah, 232 00:12:44.324 --> 00:12:52.848 I came to this event last year and it's a really unique event because it gets farmers and also big food in the same room, 233 00:12:52.848 --> 00:12:53.488 which is a really interesting event. 234 00:12:53.548 --> 00:13:00.031 which makes it unique and actually we're all sort of heading in the same direction. 235 00:13:00.851 --> 00:13:16.678 You know that there is a demand for us as a human race to start cleaning our act up and yet we're all doing that on very different levels but it's important that you know we are all heading in the same direction and 236 00:13:16.678 --> 00:13:22.020 I think often farmers will be the first to criticize or chastise big food. 237 00:13:23.605 --> 00:13:28.847 But if we get in the same room with them and talk to them and understand each other more, 238 00:13:29.708 --> 00:13:32.029 then that's got to be a good thing. 239 00:13:32.549 --> 00:13:36.832 And the other great thing about this event is the networking as well. 240 00:13:38.172 --> 00:13:40.834 Seeing a lot of familiar faces there today is great, 241 00:13:41.414 --> 00:13:47.097 but also the meeting of new faces and really useful contacts is a really, 242 00:13:47.137 --> 00:13:48.898 really valuable part of being here today. 243 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:50.179 Fantastic. 244 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:51.159 Thank you very much. 245 00:13:51.700 --> 00:13:52.060 No problem. 246 00:14:01.618 --> 00:14:02.138 Amazing, 247 00:14:02.278 --> 00:14:03.358 what a cool conversation. 248 00:14:03.598 --> 00:14:04.899 I've absolutely loved it. 249 00:14:05.419 --> 00:14:08.400 And it's so uplifting to be talking to people like Michael, 250 00:14:09.660 --> 00:14:13.061 who are the living proof that it's possible and that it makes sense, 251 00:14:13.101 --> 00:14:17.463 that you can farm in a way that instead of destroying and degrading, 252 00:14:18.063 --> 00:14:20.364 you can actually regenerate ecosystems. 253 00:14:21.324 --> 00:14:26.546 be more profitable in the process and bring back biodiversity and be more resilient in the face of climate change. 254 00:14:27.106 --> 00:14:28.307 It just makes so much sense. 255 00:14:28.507 --> 00:14:32.869 And the fact that it's possible that people like him are proving that you can do it, 256 00:14:32.869 --> 00:14:35.110 it just fills me with hope for the future. 257 00:14:35.170 --> 00:14:39.371 So thank you so much for listening to this conversation. 258 00:14:39.651 --> 00:14:41.192 I hope it was valuable to you. 259 00:14:41.572 --> 00:14:44.133 And if you'd like to support my work and this podcast, 260 00:14:44.133 --> 00:14:46.114 you can do that in just five seconds. 261 00:14:46.794 --> 00:14:50.496 Whichever streaming platform you're using right now to listen to this episode. 262 00:14:50.636 --> 00:14:53.924 just click on the deep seat page and hit the follow button. 263 00:14:54.485 --> 00:14:56.329 It really makes a big difference for me. 264 00:14:56.429 --> 00:14:59.276 So thank you so much in advance and see you soon.