WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.585 --> 00:00:04.147 Sometimes we see ourselves as a human species, 2 00:00:04.268 --> 00:00:05.510 as kind of invasive, 3 00:00:05.671 --> 00:00:07.010 and we're bad, 4 00:00:07.049 --> 00:00:08.632 and we have a negative impact. 5 00:00:08.710 --> 00:00:12.132 And if only us humans would go out of the picture, 6 00:00:12.538 --> 00:00:13.678 then nature can thrive. 7 00:00:13.694 --> 00:00:13.921 You know, 8 00:00:13.999 --> 00:00:20.147 that's kind of the image that we get from also from media and from just the way we talk about it. 9 00:00:20.256 --> 00:00:20.428 Also, 10 00:00:20.569 --> 00:00:21.788 in the climate change discussion, 11 00:00:21.819 --> 00:00:23.006 it's very negative. 12 00:00:23.022 --> 00:00:23.241 You know, 13 00:00:23.288 --> 00:00:24.225 we need to fly less, 14 00:00:24.381 --> 00:00:24.788 eat less, 15 00:00:24.866 --> 00:00:25.366 be less. 16 00:00:25.491 --> 00:00:27.116 It's almost like you can't be there. 17 00:00:29.108 --> 00:00:33.027 Even though it's important to address our negative impact and be very conscious of it, 18 00:00:33.187 --> 00:00:37.527 I think it's way more attractive to also think about it more in a, 19 00:00:37.707 --> 00:00:42.410 how can we find our place again in the bigger whole of life, 20 00:00:42.574 --> 00:00:42.808 you know, 21 00:00:43.347 --> 00:00:45.207 in the bigger chain of events. 22 00:00:45.316 --> 00:00:45.457 And 23 00:00:46.457 --> 00:00:48.285 I think we can actually play a positive role, 24 00:00:48.769 --> 00:00:50.066 where we can connect to our community, 25 00:00:50.129 --> 00:00:51.347 we can connect to ourselves, 26 00:00:51.691 --> 00:00:54.832 we can connect to our environment and actually create beautiful things, 27 00:00:55.269 --> 00:00:57.113 healthy products from healthy soils. 28 00:00:58.680 --> 00:00:59.740 A healthy job, 29 00:00:59.980 --> 00:01:03.261 doing something that matters in connection to the community you're living in. 30 00:01:03.722 --> 00:01:09.018 Kind of a positive perspective on what it means to be human. 31 00:01:10.222 --> 00:01:10.683 Rather than, 32 00:01:10.784 --> 00:01:10.901 oh, 33 00:01:10.925 --> 00:01:11.964 I need to be less and 34 00:01:12.886 --> 00:01:17.011 I'm a bad person because I eat and I sleep and I go on holidays. 35 00:01:18.558 --> 00:01:19.839 But to rethink that, 36 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:27.964 who are we as humans and how can we restructure society in such a way that we're positive. 37 00:01:28.392 --> 00:01:28.873 influence. 38 00:01:30.054 --> 00:01:30.414 Hi there, 39 00:01:30.434 --> 00:01:30.955 my friends. 40 00:01:31.135 --> 00:01:32.998 Welcome back to the Deep Seed podcast. 41 00:01:33.576 --> 00:01:36.518 Season two of the Deep Seed is now officially closed. 42 00:01:37.221 --> 00:01:46.955 We recorded and published more than 30 conversations this year with top regenerative farmers and experts in the field of regenerative agriculture. 43 00:01:47.471 --> 00:01:52.018 I'm really proud of the work done this year and I feel very, 44 00:01:52.080 --> 00:01:55.721 very grateful that I got to meet such amazing people all year long. 45 00:01:56.120 --> 00:02:03.626 And I also feel very grateful for you who's listening right now and for all of you who've been coming back every week to listen to the new episodes. 46 00:02:03.669 --> 00:02:04.966 So thank you so much for that. 47 00:02:06.029 --> 00:02:10.552 Because there has been so much great knowledge shared by my guests all year long, 48 00:02:10.896 --> 00:02:15.966 I thought it would be a shame not to take a moment now at the end of the year to go back, 49 00:02:16.498 --> 00:02:17.841 listen to every episode, 50 00:02:17.966 --> 00:02:23.732 and then handpick and select for you my favorite moments and re-release them, 51 00:02:23.826 --> 00:02:25.248 re-publish them as... 52 00:02:25.416 --> 00:02:26.958 a rewind series. 53 00:02:27.519 --> 00:02:29.501 So that's what you're listening to right now, 54 00:02:29.700 --> 00:02:32.103 episode one of that rewind series. 55 00:02:32.403 --> 00:02:32.845 And 56 00:02:33.185 --> 00:02:37.470 I started with a conversation I had with Willem-Anne de Jong from Commonland, 57 00:02:38.149 --> 00:02:45.439 where we talk about the role of humans as a keystone species who is capable of the very best. 58 00:02:45.470 --> 00:02:45.673 I mean, 59 00:02:45.674 --> 00:02:47.470 we know it's capable of the very worst, 60 00:02:47.532 --> 00:02:54.392 but here we focus on the positives and the positive impact that humans and farmers can have on ecosystems. 61 00:02:54.900 --> 00:02:58.264 with specific examples from the Netherlands. 62 00:02:58.764 --> 00:02:59.846 Really inspiring stuff. 63 00:03:00.085 --> 00:03:01.186 Really love that conversation. 64 00:03:01.206 --> 00:03:04.428 And I'm a big fan of Common Land as well and the work that they're doing. 65 00:03:04.491 --> 00:03:05.827 So here we go. 66 00:03:06.335 --> 00:03:09.413 This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital. 67 00:03:10.436 --> 00:03:11.061 I am your host, 68 00:03:11.233 --> 00:03:11.749 Raphael, 69 00:03:12.405 --> 00:03:13.796 and this is the Deep Seat Podcast. 70 00:03:22.388 --> 00:03:23.669 The closest example to me, 71 00:03:23.748 --> 00:03:25.528 to what I've worked most with, 72 00:03:25.608 --> 00:03:26.448 is in the Netherlands. 73 00:03:27.030 --> 00:03:29.468 So in 2016, 74 00:03:29.469 --> 00:03:33.311 Commonland was asked to also explore this holistic approach in the Netherlands. 75 00:03:33.632 --> 00:03:37.913 Can you regenerate a region or a landscape based on this holistic four returns approach? 76 00:03:39.772 --> 00:03:43.866 And then after a whole mapping exercise and looking around, 77 00:03:44.147 --> 00:03:44.757 we landed. 78 00:03:45.396 --> 00:03:47.618 in the Western Peat Meadow landscape. 79 00:03:47.638 --> 00:03:49.401 So that's between Utrecht and Amsterdam, 80 00:03:49.441 --> 00:03:50.780 so to the west of the Netherlands, 81 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:52.343 a very highly populated area. 82 00:03:52.862 --> 00:03:54.523 Millions of people live there. 83 00:03:56.546 --> 00:04:00.788 And quite soon after we landed there and started to test the ground, 84 00:04:00.874 --> 00:04:03.468 it also turned into an independent organization. 85 00:04:03.671 --> 00:04:04.530 It's called Weiland. 86 00:04:04.999 --> 00:04:06.515 So they're one of our key partners now. 87 00:04:06.577 --> 00:04:09.077 They're an independent organization with their own mission and vision, 88 00:04:09.499 --> 00:04:13.796 but it's really built on the same DNA of this idea of the four turns approach. 89 00:04:15.183 --> 00:04:15.308 So, 90 00:04:16.632 --> 00:04:19.974 What they did to start out with is just to sense into the landscape. 91 00:04:20.537 --> 00:04:21.275 Who's living here? 92 00:04:21.615 --> 00:04:22.478 Who's farming here? 93 00:04:22.896 --> 00:04:24.041 What are their dreams and hopes? 94 00:04:24.080 --> 00:04:26.381 What are their worries and challenges? 95 00:04:26.521 --> 00:04:29.904 So they spend a lot of time listening to the stories of farmers in the region. 96 00:04:30.568 --> 00:04:33.084 And the reason why they chose farmers is because 70% 97 00:04:33.428 --> 00:04:36.771 of the land in that region is managed or owned by farmers. 98 00:04:37.334 --> 00:04:40.631 So if you want to transition the land use on such a large scale, 99 00:04:40.693 --> 00:04:43.678 we're talking about 250,000 hectares. 100 00:04:44.334 --> 00:04:45.662 it's almost um 101 00:04:45.952 --> 00:04:46.072 Yeah, 102 00:04:46.132 --> 00:04:48.375 maybe one fifth of the Netherlands, 103 00:04:48.376 --> 00:04:48.815 you could say. 104 00:04:49.875 --> 00:04:51.239 That's a huge scale. 105 00:04:51.278 --> 00:04:54.000 So if you want to change the land use system, 106 00:04:54.899 --> 00:04:58.625 you need to work with the people that have access to land and can manage it differently. 107 00:04:59.063 --> 00:05:02.446 So they started with five farmers a couple of years ago, 108 00:05:03.008 --> 00:05:03.211 five, 109 00:05:03.243 --> 00:05:03.743 six years ago, 110 00:05:03.977 --> 00:05:07.118 and now they're working with 300 farmers in the region. 111 00:05:08.180 --> 00:05:09.211 So they started listening. 112 00:05:09.399 --> 00:05:10.914 They started experimenting, 113 00:05:11.211 --> 00:05:11.914 piloting. 114 00:05:12.684 --> 00:05:13.925 Can we do things differently? 115 00:05:14.065 --> 00:05:16.428 It's dominated by intensive dairy farming. 116 00:05:17.190 --> 00:05:18.811 Can that be more extensive? 117 00:05:19.069 --> 00:05:24.354 Can we move from monoculture ryegrass to maybe herb-rich grasslands? 118 00:05:24.979 --> 00:05:27.081 How can we try that out on one hectare, 119 00:05:27.135 --> 00:05:28.135 maybe two hectares? 120 00:05:28.838 --> 00:05:30.198 And the more farmers joined, 121 00:05:30.229 --> 00:05:33.338 the more the farmer learning network started to emerge. 122 00:05:34.885 --> 00:05:35.213 Of course, 123 00:05:35.214 --> 00:05:37.635 they also worked with festivals, 124 00:05:38.729 --> 00:05:39.213 citizen... 125 00:05:40.340 --> 00:05:58.771 activities involving communities also looking at the business model of farmers can can we create alternative forms of income so that you can change from a highly intensive one product based farm to a more diverse farm and 126 00:05:58.772 --> 00:06:07.443 what you're seeing is that because they're so highly practical and rooted in the place and listening to the people that live there this is also starting to attract attention from 127 00:06:08.092 --> 00:06:09.194 the municipalities, 128 00:06:09.274 --> 00:06:10.235 the water boards, 129 00:06:10.274 --> 00:06:11.395 the provincial government, 130 00:06:11.416 --> 00:06:12.377 the national government, 131 00:06:12.416 --> 00:06:17.139 because they have such rich knowledge and insight into what farmers want and need, 132 00:06:18.701 --> 00:06:25.170 that it's really grown to be a strong organization with really strong evidence that regenerative farming or nature-inclusive farming, 133 00:06:25.186 --> 00:06:26.389 as we call it in the Netherlands, 134 00:06:27.076 --> 00:06:27.951 makes a lot of sense. 135 00:06:28.498 --> 00:06:28.873 And actually, 136 00:06:29.076 --> 00:06:32.061 if you ask an average farmer in the Netherlands, 137 00:06:32.139 --> 00:06:33.811 I think most of them would say, 138 00:06:33.983 --> 00:06:34.858 I want to transition. 139 00:06:35.045 --> 00:06:35.842 I want to change. 140 00:06:36.532 --> 00:06:38.332 Except the rules are not clear. 141 00:06:38.453 --> 00:06:39.912 The rules are constantly changing. 142 00:06:40.392 --> 00:06:40.654 Plus, 143 00:06:40.693 --> 00:06:45.553 you need this transition period of at least five years to be able to switch from a highly intensive, 144 00:06:45.654 --> 00:06:50.014 high capital model to an extensive, 145 00:06:50.115 --> 00:06:51.014 more diverse model. 146 00:06:52.881 --> 00:06:53.240 So that's, 147 00:06:53.381 --> 00:06:53.662 I think, 148 00:06:53.663 --> 00:07:00.990 a really nice example of where they've worked a lot on the social values and created hope and inspiration by just trying out things. 149 00:07:02.068 --> 00:07:06.491 And then looking at the business model of the farmers and trying to see if there are alternatives possible. 150 00:07:06.492 --> 00:07:08.296 So that's the financial capital as well. 151 00:07:09.315 --> 00:07:09.835 And of course, 152 00:07:10.237 --> 00:07:11.940 how can we bring back meadow birds? 153 00:07:11.979 --> 00:07:14.557 Can we bring back the herb-rich grasslands? 154 00:07:15.339 --> 00:07:23.448 Because it used to actually a lot of ecology in that area kind of co-evolved with the way we were farming more extensively. 155 00:07:24.042 --> 00:07:27.714 So a lot of the meadow birds are there because of the way of farming. 156 00:07:29.288 --> 00:07:46.944 at least a couple decades ago and we're trying to bring that back so well this podcast the central topic of the podcast is regenerative agriculture or the question of how do we keep producing food to feed humanity but without degrading our ecosystems but instead regenerating them and 157 00:07:47.459 --> 00:07:57.615 you and so you mentioned that a big part of that project was to to work with farmers right because most of that land is farmers and there's sometimes 158 00:07:58.404 --> 00:08:04.930 a lot of opposition between nature and farming in debates or in the media. 159 00:08:05.430 --> 00:08:06.313 And I was wondering first, 160 00:08:06.669 --> 00:08:09.216 what do you think about that opposition? 161 00:08:09.739 --> 00:08:09.856 Yeah, 162 00:08:10.458 --> 00:08:13.700 it's staggering how we've managed to pull them apart, 163 00:08:14.473 --> 00:08:15.755 even though they're so connected. 164 00:08:15.989 --> 00:08:18.677 And even in the Dutch context, 165 00:08:18.708 --> 00:08:20.989 we have policies disconnecting them. 166 00:08:21.145 --> 00:08:23.442 So we have kind of, 167 00:08:25.770 --> 00:08:26.489 yeah, 168 00:08:26.614 --> 00:08:27.348 stemmingsplan. 169 00:08:28.164 --> 00:08:29.324 I don't know how to translate this. 170 00:08:31.685 --> 00:08:34.526 So we have rules for what you can use land for. 171 00:08:35.124 --> 00:08:36.183 And they're written by law. 172 00:08:36.667 --> 00:08:39.784 And you need to prove that you're going to use it for either nature, 173 00:08:40.066 --> 00:08:41.370 then it has lower value, 174 00:08:42.550 --> 00:08:43.948 then if you use it for production, 175 00:08:44.370 --> 00:08:45.433 then it has a higher value. 176 00:08:45.448 --> 00:08:49.886 And these plots of land are extremely expensive in the Netherlands, 177 00:08:50.105 --> 00:08:51.589 which is also a big problem, 178 00:08:52.167 --> 00:08:54.417 holding us back from moving to a more... 179 00:08:55.151 --> 00:08:55.308 uh, 180 00:08:55.552 --> 00:08:55.712 Yeah, 181 00:08:55.852 --> 00:09:00.577 a sustainable form of agriculture because farmers simply don't have access to land because it's too expensive. 182 00:09:01.397 --> 00:09:05.679 But what's interesting is how we've kind of separated them apart, 183 00:09:06.139 --> 00:09:10.507 also by law and through rules and regulations. 184 00:09:11.483 --> 00:09:13.264 And the two shall also never meet. 185 00:09:14.452 --> 00:09:15.108 But interestingly, 186 00:09:15.436 --> 00:09:16.468 farming is actually, 187 00:09:17.718 --> 00:09:18.077 in a way, 188 00:09:18.952 --> 00:09:20.077 you're farming nature. 189 00:09:20.108 --> 00:09:22.202 You're working with nature to grow things. 190 00:09:22.702 --> 00:09:23.702 Grass doesn't grow. 191 00:09:24.396 --> 00:09:25.260 because we want it to, 192 00:09:25.361 --> 00:09:27.451 it grows because it's a natural rhythm, 193 00:09:27.531 --> 00:09:27.793 you know, 194 00:09:27.953 --> 00:09:28.074 and, 195 00:09:28.437 --> 00:09:29.097 um, 196 00:09:30.603 --> 00:09:32.445 So in our model, 197 00:09:32.446 --> 00:09:33.965 we haven't talked about it yet, 198 00:09:34.047 --> 00:09:36.387 but we also have a thing called the three zones. 199 00:09:37.590 --> 00:09:40.329 It's kind of a way of looking at the landscape. 200 00:09:40.415 --> 00:09:41.055 So in general, 201 00:09:41.056 --> 00:09:42.594 you could say there's a natural zone, 202 00:09:43.196 --> 00:09:47.360 which is often like a forested area or a natural area that a lot of people know. 203 00:09:48.875 --> 00:09:50.016 You have an economic zone, 204 00:09:50.047 --> 00:09:54.141 which is mostly dominated by monoculture farming nowadays, 205 00:09:54.188 --> 00:09:55.125 very intensive, 206 00:09:55.672 --> 00:09:57.563 very high production oriented. 207 00:09:58.907 --> 00:10:00.188 I think this 208 00:10:00.707 --> 00:10:03.387 intensive agricultural model is seen all over the world. 209 00:10:03.408 --> 00:10:05.168 It's either nature or production. 210 00:10:05.969 --> 00:10:08.848 And we're trying to introduce this third zone, 211 00:10:09.231 --> 00:10:10.567 which we call the combined zone, 212 00:10:11.207 --> 00:10:13.528 just trying to open up our thinking around, 213 00:10:13.832 --> 00:10:13.973 oh, 214 00:10:14.051 --> 00:10:14.653 wait a minute, 215 00:10:14.934 --> 00:10:16.348 you can also combine the two, 216 00:10:16.965 --> 00:10:18.668 like agroforestry systems, 217 00:10:19.106 --> 00:10:20.512 silvopasture systems, 218 00:10:20.574 --> 00:10:22.278 regenerative agriculture forms. 219 00:10:23.731 --> 00:10:29.012 So this is where you work with nature and trying to move with. 220 00:10:29.411 --> 00:10:31.113 with nature rather than against it? 221 00:10:31.774 --> 00:10:41.327 And what if we increase that combined zone and decrease the economic zone of monoculture and let the economic zone be mostly a zone of infrastructure, 222 00:10:41.663 --> 00:10:42.124 living, 223 00:10:43.202 --> 00:10:43.827 and stuff like that, 224 00:10:43.889 --> 00:10:51.780 rather than this monoculture landscape with just one crop and zero biodiversity or limited biodiversity. 225 00:10:51.889 --> 00:10:57.420 So this combined zone is a way to open up our thinking from nature or production to... 226 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:14.419 hey what if you combine it and actually have this kind of resilient vibrant thriving zone of production as well as a lot of natural values right so the the story is not to say we need to transition productive farmland to natural 227 00:11:15.153 --> 00:11:25.700 ecosystems but just to maybe open open up that third type of zone so some of that productive land becomes mixed land yeah but that is still highly productive. 228 00:11:25.841 --> 00:11:25.966 Yeah. 229 00:11:26.044 --> 00:11:26.169 But, 230 00:11:26.495 --> 00:11:27.956 But that includes a lot of nature, 231 00:11:28.037 --> 00:11:29.218 like agroforestry and things like that. 232 00:11:29.219 --> 00:11:29.318 Yeah, 233 00:11:29.319 --> 00:11:30.521 and maybe it's less productive, 234 00:11:30.599 --> 00:11:31.341 but that's okay, 235 00:11:31.400 --> 00:11:33.001 because a lot of other values are created. 236 00:11:33.220 --> 00:11:40.669 And if you combine it with kind of regionalization of our food system and redistributing our food equally, 237 00:11:41.326 --> 00:11:43.794 because there's actually a lot of food produced in the world, 238 00:11:44.232 --> 00:11:50.013 there's also a problem around distribution and fair sharing of the food all over the world, 239 00:11:50.060 --> 00:11:53.529 which is hampering our food security. 240 00:11:54.435 --> 00:11:55.841 so it's not necessarily production 241 00:11:56.115 --> 00:11:57.475 the question of are we producing enough, 242 00:11:57.495 --> 00:12:08.178 the question is are we organizing our food economies smartly in such a way that we can have a balance between local production and consumption versus global trade system, 243 00:12:08.435 --> 00:12:17.974 which is characterized a lot by bulk production and moving of bulk production to often one type of crop, 244 00:12:18.428 --> 00:12:18.943 maize, 245 00:12:19.193 --> 00:12:19.553 sugar. 246 00:12:20.646 --> 00:12:22.756 So we need to rethink our whole food system. 247 00:12:22.787 --> 00:12:23.662 So if you combine... 248 00:12:25.091 --> 00:12:29.956 like a lower focus on yields with a more balanced system, 249 00:12:30.194 --> 00:12:34.843 you can actually start to create balanced local food systems that are more healthy. 250 00:12:35.178 --> 00:12:36.905 And so that third zone you're trying to create, 251 00:12:36.906 --> 00:12:39.483 is that something that you're hoping will become a legal thing as well? 252 00:12:39.522 --> 00:12:46.225 That it will be seen officially as a type of zone that could potentially retain the value of that farmland, 253 00:12:47.772 --> 00:12:48.882 but bring in more nature? 254 00:12:49.495 --> 00:12:50.216 Actually, 255 00:12:50.217 --> 00:12:50.796 in the Netherlands, 256 00:12:50.797 --> 00:12:54.420 there's also a lot of organizations trying to plea for this combined zone. 257 00:12:54.542 --> 00:12:56.202 We call it landscape zone, 258 00:12:57.424 --> 00:13:02.026 but politically that concept hasn't been taken up as much as we would like to. 259 00:13:02.885 --> 00:13:04.487 I do understand that now in the Netherlands, 260 00:13:04.488 --> 00:13:07.971 there's also a crop code for food forests. 261 00:13:08.753 --> 00:13:12.393 So you can actually have a plot of land that can formally get a food forest code. 262 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:16.299 So you're then allowed to have like high biodiverse. 263 00:13:17.532 --> 00:13:20.134 use of the land while creating healthy products. 264 00:13:20.636 --> 00:13:21.694 So it is shifting, 265 00:13:21.854 --> 00:13:23.097 but way too slowly. 266 00:13:24.878 --> 00:13:26.401 At least I'm speaking mostly for the 267 00:13:26.800 --> 00:13:27.479 Dutch context. 268 00:13:29.206 --> 00:13:34.144 But I think with EU regulations and the common agricultural policy in Europe, 269 00:13:34.706 --> 00:13:39.940 a lot of these issues around these boxes that we've created for, 270 00:13:40.269 --> 00:13:40.987 this is nature, 271 00:13:41.690 --> 00:13:42.581 this is production land, 272 00:13:43.284 --> 00:13:44.972 I wouldn't be surprised if it's all over Europe. 273 00:13:45.831 --> 00:13:47.252 I've heard about it in Spain as well. 274 00:13:48.354 --> 00:13:52.397 So this is definitely a problem all over that we box things in. 275 00:13:53.217 --> 00:13:54.041 A lot of the time, 276 00:13:54.401 --> 00:14:03.955 farmers seem to be quite against the idea of rewilding or transferring productive agricultural land to be regenerated in a completely wild way. 277 00:14:04.627 --> 00:14:07.096 Do you agree with that observation? 278 00:14:07.237 --> 00:14:08.955 And how would you explain it? 279 00:14:11.392 --> 00:14:11.512 Well, 280 00:14:11.513 --> 00:14:14.416 if there's one thing I've learned is the diversity of the farming community. 281 00:14:15.835 --> 00:14:16.636 So yes, 282 00:14:16.777 --> 00:14:25.148 definitely there are farmers that are reluctant or would feel reluctant to move towards a more integrated, 283 00:14:25.429 --> 00:14:26.406 less intensive model. 284 00:14:27.453 --> 00:14:30.828 But what I also observe is that there are so many farmers that want to, 285 00:14:31.578 --> 00:14:34.390 but are so stuck in this kind of high productive, 286 00:14:34.671 --> 00:14:39.812 highly high capital system that it's really hard for them to imagine. 287 00:14:40.544 --> 00:14:41.545 how to move forward, 288 00:14:41.726 --> 00:14:43.767 also because of the psychological bandwidth. 289 00:14:43.968 --> 00:14:48.030 So they're so stuck in this system that we've all created together. 290 00:14:48.253 --> 00:14:48.855 More food, 291 00:14:49.011 --> 00:14:49.691 more production. 292 00:14:50.011 --> 00:14:51.112 We need to feed humanity. 293 00:14:51.331 --> 00:14:54.636 And this kind of assignment was given to a lot of farmers, 294 00:14:54.941 --> 00:14:56.526 and a lot of them took it very seriously. 295 00:14:56.573 --> 00:15:00.089 And we all went for it through investments and government policies. 296 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:04.855 And now we're coming to realize that it's way too intensive, 297 00:15:05.183 --> 00:15:07.026 and it's pushing the boundaries way too far. 298 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:08.921 And now we need to shift. 299 00:15:09.081 --> 00:15:09.381 And now, 300 00:15:09.422 --> 00:15:11.866 so the whole public opinion is starting to shift towards, 301 00:15:11.924 --> 00:15:12.045 oh, 302 00:15:12.584 --> 00:15:12.725 yeah, 303 00:15:13.123 --> 00:15:14.287 why do we have so many animals? 304 00:15:14.307 --> 00:15:18.670 And why are we working so intensively with pesticides and herbicides? 305 00:15:18.694 --> 00:15:22.373 And so our consciousness is shifting. 306 00:15:22.912 --> 00:15:26.116 But how do you actually move out of that system that we've all created? 307 00:15:26.162 --> 00:15:26.397 That's, 308 00:15:26.459 --> 00:15:26.756 I think, 309 00:15:26.803 --> 00:15:29.944 where a lot of the barriers come from. 310 00:15:30.022 --> 00:15:30.975 Also that farmers, 311 00:15:31.491 --> 00:15:31.600 yeah, 312 00:15:31.709 --> 00:15:32.678 really don't know how. 313 00:15:34.412 --> 00:15:38.172 And are also not maybe supported in the most effective way in making that transition. 314 00:15:38.653 --> 00:15:39.332 And secondly, 315 00:15:40.332 --> 00:15:43.071 it's also an intergenerational thing again. 316 00:15:43.235 --> 00:15:51.071 So if your father did it this way and your grandfather did it a certain way and you've been taught this way, 317 00:15:51.118 --> 00:15:54.633 then it's really hard to shift those core beliefs. 318 00:15:55.118 --> 00:15:55.899 That takes time. 319 00:15:56.539 --> 00:15:58.555 Change is hard for everyone. 320 00:15:58.940 --> 00:16:00.361 I think change is really, 321 00:16:00.422 --> 00:16:00.883 really hard. 322 00:16:00.943 --> 00:16:02.683 We're not wired for change as humans, 323 00:16:02.783 --> 00:16:03.006 right? 324 00:16:03.103 --> 00:16:03.904 We don't like change. 325 00:16:03.905 --> 00:16:04.486 We don't like it. 326 00:16:04.487 --> 00:16:05.025 It's really tough. 327 00:16:05.026 --> 00:16:05.748 But it's the only constant. 328 00:16:05.749 --> 00:16:09.771 I can only imagine how hard it is to ask from someone to change something they've done their whole lives, 329 00:16:10.271 --> 00:16:12.412 that they've learned from their fathers and their grandfathers, 330 00:16:12.912 --> 00:16:15.912 that they've been told their whole lives by advisors, 331 00:16:15.974 --> 00:16:16.693 by society, 332 00:16:16.771 --> 00:16:18.474 that this is what they should be doing. 333 00:16:19.162 --> 00:16:24.021 And to ask of people like that now to change the way they do things, 334 00:16:24.099 --> 00:16:24.349 I mean, 335 00:16:24.365 --> 00:16:25.240 it's incredibly hard. 336 00:16:25.792 --> 00:16:28.595 And also consumers then also need to change their behavior. 337 00:16:28.596 --> 00:16:31.357 So if you want farmers to work more sustainably, 338 00:16:31.439 --> 00:16:32.899 then buy more sustainably. 339 00:16:33.321 --> 00:16:35.423 I know not everybody can afford it, 340 00:16:36.040 --> 00:16:38.501 but then we need to create solidarity systems for this. 341 00:16:38.502 --> 00:16:39.548 So we need to work. 342 00:16:39.767 --> 00:16:41.345 We all need to make this move. 343 00:16:41.346 --> 00:16:41.587 You know, 344 00:16:41.689 --> 00:16:43.415 it's not only the farmer's responsibility. 345 00:16:43.509 --> 00:16:43.634 So, 346 00:16:44.415 --> 00:16:44.649 yes, 347 00:16:45.446 --> 00:16:49.228 I'm sure there are farming communities where they're absolutely reluctant. 348 00:16:49.571 --> 00:16:52.884 But I mostly see a lot of farmers that actually want to create change, 349 00:16:53.321 --> 00:16:54.274 but are so stuck. 350 00:16:54.580 --> 00:16:55.681 They don't even know where to begin. 351 00:16:57.023 --> 00:17:02.847 So we all need to stand behind them or around them and create this kind of support system, 352 00:17:02.949 --> 00:17:05.527 including the whole value chain partners, 353 00:17:05.628 --> 00:17:08.511 all these big food and beverage companies, 354 00:17:08.597 --> 00:17:09.433 supermarkets, 355 00:17:09.675 --> 00:17:10.339 traders. 356 00:17:10.699 --> 00:17:15.527 They have so much power to help change the system towards a more localized one or a more balanced one. 357 00:17:16.043 --> 00:17:17.386 So everybody needs to chip in. 358 00:17:17.996 --> 00:17:22.543 So going back to the example of the Veyland projects, 359 00:17:23.721 --> 00:17:24.441 How does that work then? 360 00:17:24.542 --> 00:17:31.550 How do we enable the farmers to evolve their system in a way that benefits them first? 361 00:17:32.089 --> 00:17:33.253 And how do you bring in, 362 00:17:33.347 --> 00:17:33.628 you said, 363 00:17:33.807 --> 00:17:34.534 different actors, 364 00:17:34.573 --> 00:17:36.690 different stakeholders to support that vision? 365 00:17:38.979 --> 00:17:40.339 So what I've seen with Violent, 366 00:17:40.401 --> 00:17:41.057 their approach, 367 00:17:41.104 --> 00:17:44.854 but also in Spain and other countries that we work with partners, 368 00:17:45.979 --> 00:17:46.464 like I said, 369 00:17:46.620 --> 00:17:47.979 the kitchen table conversations, 370 00:17:49.651 --> 00:17:50.042 listening, 371 00:17:50.592 --> 00:17:52.434 And then also listening to where the energy is. 372 00:17:52.494 --> 00:17:55.258 So if a farmer indicates that he wants, 373 00:17:55.438 --> 00:17:57.117 he or she wants to know more about the soil, 374 00:17:57.278 --> 00:17:57.899 let's start there. 375 00:17:58.801 --> 00:18:01.106 So it really starting with where the energy is. 376 00:18:01.121 --> 00:18:09.012 So if you're interested in maybe introducing some perennial crops or perennial means multiple years rather than an annual crop. 377 00:18:09.918 --> 00:18:16.699 So perennial systems are really interesting to look into because they also have a great benefit for soil health in the long term. 378 00:18:17.981 --> 00:18:18.559 But that's a whole. 379 00:18:19.656 --> 00:18:20.958 It's a whole branch we can go into. 380 00:18:22.179 --> 00:18:26.802 So if a farmer is interested in perennial crops or introducing like trees or nuts or fruit trees, 381 00:18:26.903 --> 00:18:29.786 then let's see if that's possible and try it out, 382 00:18:29.809 --> 00:18:30.044 you know. 383 00:18:30.106 --> 00:18:31.169 So go where the energy is. 384 00:18:31.208 --> 00:18:33.270 I think that's a big lesson. 385 00:18:33.669 --> 00:18:34.450 Farmers are very, 386 00:18:38.161 --> 00:18:39.942 and this is a generalizing comment, 387 00:18:40.020 --> 00:18:43.161 but they really like action on the ground. 388 00:18:43.192 --> 00:18:45.520 They just really like seeing things with their own eyes, 389 00:18:46.099 --> 00:18:48.864 trying out things with their own hands or with their own equipment. 390 00:18:49.312 --> 00:18:50.273 trying out things on the land. 391 00:18:50.274 --> 00:18:53.912 They're just really common sense kind of people. 392 00:18:53.994 --> 00:18:54.193 Like, 393 00:18:54.393 --> 00:18:55.033 does this work? 394 00:18:55.154 --> 00:18:56.295 Could this work on my farm? 395 00:18:56.912 --> 00:18:59.650 So begin with just small experiments, 396 00:19:00.111 --> 00:19:01.213 sharing with other farmers. 397 00:19:01.596 --> 00:19:03.018 Farmers learn from other farmers. 398 00:19:03.072 --> 00:19:11.471 So let's minimize the external advice as much as possible and just let farmers exchange with other farmers and facilitate that. 399 00:19:11.643 --> 00:19:11.814 Right, 400 00:19:11.861 --> 00:19:12.096 okay. 401 00:19:21.470 --> 00:19:22.691 This conversation today, 402 00:19:23.292 --> 00:19:28.136 it really reminded me that regenerative agriculture is not just about soil health, 403 00:19:28.257 --> 00:19:29.058 soil science, 404 00:19:29.117 --> 00:19:30.257 agronomy and so on. 405 00:19:30.859 --> 00:19:35.406 It's also about rebuilding trust between farmers and the rest of society. 406 00:19:36.648 --> 00:19:43.734 One thing that really stuck with me here was the idea that landscape regeneration begins not with a master plan, 407 00:19:44.437 --> 00:19:48.749 but by sitting down at the kitchen tables with farmers and asking them 408 00:19:49.342 --> 00:19:50.283 what they care about, 409 00:19:50.343 --> 00:19:51.203 what they dream of, 410 00:19:51.264 --> 00:19:52.366 what they struggle with, 411 00:19:52.686 --> 00:19:53.367 and so on. 412 00:19:54.367 --> 00:19:56.289 I think the phrase Willemijn used was, 413 00:19:57.051 --> 00:20:00.309 change flows from where the energy already is, 414 00:20:00.973 --> 00:20:03.239 not from trying to impose a system from above. 415 00:20:03.973 --> 00:20:04.356 So yeah, 416 00:20:04.481 --> 00:20:04.895 really cool, 417 00:20:05.403 --> 00:20:06.371 really like that phrase. 418 00:20:06.434 --> 00:20:07.387 So yeah, 419 00:20:07.793 --> 00:20:09.278 I hope you enjoyed this episode, 420 00:20:09.387 --> 00:20:10.309 and if you did, 421 00:20:10.465 --> 00:20:11.059 please, 422 00:20:11.121 --> 00:20:12.762 please show me some love by leaving a 423 00:20:13.153 --> 00:20:14.746 5-star rating right here. 424 00:20:15.470 --> 00:20:16.211 on Spotify, 425 00:20:16.231 --> 00:20:17.132 on Apple Podcasts, 426 00:20:17.171 --> 00:20:19.373 or wherever you're listening to this episode from. 427 00:20:20.314 --> 00:20:21.537 I'm currently dedicating 428 00:20:21.896 --> 00:20:24.962 100% of my working life to this podcast. 429 00:20:25.002 --> 00:20:31.127 I'm working really hard to bring the best quality conversations possible to your ears every week. 430 00:20:31.369 --> 00:20:31.728 And 431 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:33.400 I know it's not perfect, 432 00:20:33.401 --> 00:20:35.572 but I can promise you I'm trying my best. 433 00:20:36.416 --> 00:20:39.978 And little things like following the deep seed, 434 00:20:40.712 --> 00:20:41.541 leaving a comment, 435 00:20:41.744 --> 00:20:42.400 and even better, 436 00:20:42.478 --> 00:20:43.853 leaving a five-star rating. 437 00:20:44.350 --> 00:20:50.575 They make a huge difference for the podcast and they allow me to continue doing this work a little longer. 438 00:20:51.137 --> 00:20:52.840 So thank you so much in advance. 439 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:54.457 Actually, 440 00:20:54.458 --> 00:20:54.879 you know what? 441 00:20:54.942 --> 00:20:56.786 There are right now on Spotify, 442 00:20:56.840 --> 00:21:00.364 there are 123 five-star ratings, 443 00:21:00.473 --> 00:21:01.473 which is already amazing. 444 00:21:01.489 --> 00:21:03.473 And thank you so much if you're one of these people. 445 00:21:04.676 --> 00:21:10.911 But I think we can do a lot better and it would be amazing if we could reach 200 by the end of the year. 446 00:21:11.598 --> 00:21:12.082 So that's... 447 00:21:12.970 --> 00:21:13.891 77 more, 448 00:21:13.991 --> 00:21:15.012 if I'm not mistaken. 449 00:21:15.432 --> 00:21:16.114 77. 450 00:21:16.594 --> 00:21:19.135 There are thousands of people listening to this podcast. 451 00:21:19.495 --> 00:21:20.620 I'm sure we can get there. 452 00:21:21.260 --> 00:21:22.096 That would be amazing. 453 00:21:22.417 --> 00:21:24.081 An amazing end of the year gift for me. 454 00:21:24.643 --> 00:21:25.042 You know what? 455 00:21:25.120 --> 00:21:26.526 Let's make a bit of a game out of it. 456 00:21:26.682 --> 00:21:33.190 I'll keep you updated in next episodes of the Rewind series to let you know how we get on with this goal. 457 00:21:34.424 --> 00:21:34.628 Yeah. 458 00:21:35.253 --> 00:21:35.534 Again, 459 00:21:35.628 --> 00:21:36.487 thank you so much. 460 00:21:36.690 --> 00:21:39.049 I wish you a wonderful rest of your day, 461 00:21:39.284 --> 00:21:40.299 a beautiful life, 462 00:21:40.456 --> 00:21:41.081 and see you soon.