Hello.
Passionate about sustainability,
energy,
and climate?
You're in the right place.
Welcome to Energeti.
I'm Maureen Cornelis,
and together,
we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen.
They may be activists,
scientists,
policy makers,
or other enthusiasts,
just like you.
Let their life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet.
I have the pleasure of welcoming Ereti Ntaradimou,
a familiar face in the European energy scene.
If you work in the energy sector,
you've likely met Ereti or rather Insights.
Ereti blends over two decades of journalism with the deal for sustainable energy transitions.
She delves into energy and physical energy practices,
armed with a BA in philosophy and a master's in applied ethics.
That's very original in the sector,
I must say.
Arati,
it is Smart Energy International and leads content for Enlid Europe's
EU project zone,
driving conversations that bridge policy and community action.
Arati,
welcome.
Thank you so much for the invitation,
Marine.
I appreciate it.
Thank you so much,
Arati.
And actually,
this is the second part of our conversation.
The first can be found on
Enlid, right?
Yes,
at enlid.world.
You can find our first part of the conversation at the EU Energy Projects podcast.
That's great.
So,
Arati,
you have quite an unusual profile in the sector because you've studied ethics,
you've studied philosophy as well.
You are bringing a lot of,
let's say,
perspective and nuance into the energy sector and you've been a journalist for more than 20 years.
So why did you choose the energy sector?
Please give us some behind the scenes,
right?
To be honest,
the energy sector,
why I chose it,
because I found it sexy,
because I found it very important,
because I found it fun to participate in.
Let's be honest,
if we don't solve our energy issues,
then we will have huge problems in the future,
not only for us,
but for future generations.
Future generations is,
let's say,
an ethical part that ethics,
philosophy likes to talk about a lot.
And of course,
I'm not different.
You also said that I have a strange background.
To be honest,
I would love if more and more people in the energy sector were to do what you and I are doing.
Basically,
focus a little bit on the ethical part.
So let's hope that in the future it won't be that strange.
But you are right,
for now it is.
I think there is a space for absolutely everyone with different backgrounds to be made in the energy sector.
It's not only about the technical side.
Of course,
the technical side is.
fundamental.
We need to move electrons and know people who know how to move electrons.
But we also need people who are able to understand the intricacies and what it implies for the people,
also what it means in terms of policy,
in terms of social acceptance as well.
And be feeling that what you've been doing with NLEADS.
which is your current employer,
is really about fostering this kind of conversations and making sure that people with different backgrounds really join the conversation.
Can you tell us a little bit more about
Enlid Europe and why it has taken this quite innovative,
yet also quite original stance and position in the sector?
So Enlid started basically as a European utility week.
We were an event basically only focusing on smart grid.
Then we acquired Power Generation Europe and we became an end-to-end event.
But that was not enough.
In order to have a saying,
in order to participate truly in the energy transition,
we had to do something more.
So now we are in our way in transforming to Enlid Media.
Through our voice and our media platforms,
I think we give a forum to everybody to discuss the energy transition.
From the European Commission to the end consumer,
energy communities,
prosumers,
everybody.
We believe at Enlid that a clean energy is needed.
A clean energy transition is what we should look for.
And we are trying to be the medium,
if you like,
that will help the networking,
that will help the conversations going.
Because mind you,
we're not engineers.
We're not going to actually create.
the projects and the programs and the new technologies that are needed,
but we are going to be those that will bring together the right people in order to create a new,
brighter and greener future.
That's really,
really great and really interesting.
And I mean,
I've been following your work and been involved in as some kind of an ambassador of Enlid for many years now.
And I've been feeling that all the conversations that I've been participating to have been very enriching.
And,
you know,
there has been quite also a shift over the years in moving from something very techno-centric to something a little bit more subtle.
And the next edition will be,
will happen in Milan and I already know that there will be a session on trust.
I mean,
I hope it will stay because otherwise it would be a terrible teaser from my side.
But I think it's really important that those kind of topics are brought forward because really it's not only about,
as you just said,
it's not only about the tech.
It's also about parking the conversations and being sure that those conversations happen in the first place,
right?
Yes,
it is about the people.
mainly,
because if the people don't do anything,
no matter how many nice projects and technologies we have,
in the end,
we're going to fail.
If you and I do not follow the mandate of the European Commission and turn our thermostat to 19 instead of 22 or 23,
then we are going to have a problem.
And this is also the role of Enlid,
informing also the masses,
the people that are not engineers,
the people that are not as well informed,
let's say,
as they should be.
As for the shift that you mentioned at Enlid,
and yes,
you know it very well because you've been an ambassador for a year and we thank you for that.
It is happening because we are also following the European Commission and the changes that the Commission is doing.
And I'm really happy to see the last years that the European Commission,
through initiatives like
Sustainable Energy Week,
they're more and more interested in the people,
young people,
prosumers,
energy communities.
And so,
yes,
we're following this because why not?
It's a beautiful recipe indeed.
And you have been in particular focusing on the
European project zone.
So you position yourself and really your line of work on the intersection of policy and innovation and,
you know,
trying to spark conversations into EU projects.
Can you share a little bit more what are the particularities of really this EU project zone?
Yes,
Marin,
thank you very much for this question because you gave me the opportunity to explain what it is that we do,
because it's something that I truly believe in.
So about seven years ago,
DigiConnect,
two wonderful,
very intelligent,
amazing ladies from DigiConnect,
Merce and Patricia,
they came to us and they said,
why don't we create a little
European focus,
European Commission focused area at the European Utility Week then?
And immediately we jumped to the opportunity because it was a beautiful opportunity.
So we started more and more inviting projects that are EU funded to come and share their knowledge,
share their findings,
their problems,
also their challenges at Enlid.
Now we started,
I remember,
with one small theater and like five projects.
And last year we had 80.
Most of them from Horizon Europe,
the Bridge Initiative,
ETIPSnet,
etc.
We had a nice representation from
SNETP also,
so the nuclear EU-funded projects.
We had participation from Mobility.
It was beautiful.
We even had some projects from ESA,
the European Space Agency,
with technologies that can be applied to everyday energy.
So in seven years,
I have seen this little village of ours,
this little Brussels village,
let's say,
becoming bigger and bigger.
It's nice to welcome the same people,
but also new people every year.
And above all,
I think the most important thing for me is to...
help cross along the message of the European Commission.
I am a firm believer in Europe,
personally,
and I know that in latest also.
We believe that the European Commission,
with all the mistakes,
there will be mistakes,
it's impossible not to do some mistakes,
but I think that this is the best thing that happened to Europe since,
I don't know,
the Second World War,
maybe?
Well,
not that the war was something good,
but the end of the war.
Yeah,
that's really interesting to hear.
And I mean,
we've just,
on NetEarth Ethics,
we've just been concluding a series with the AU project.
We've been discussing like the intricacy of the project,
what it means in terms of not only about making sure,
you know,
it delivers,
the QPIs deliver,
but also what it means underground and who are actually the rebel thinkers that are behind those projects.
And-
It's really for me really enlightening the conversation to have this kind of behind the scene.
So in practice,
in your project zone,
how do you kind of create conversations between projects?
I mean,
if somebody now is interested in joining,
how would that happen?
And what would they learn really?
Okay,
first of all,
we have our own theatre,
or three of them,
to be honest.
And there we have some sessions with a specific topic,
like,
for example,
the digitalisation set plan,
etc.
And then we have projects that are relevant,
projects that are focusing on digital twin,
on AI,
on interoperability,
etc.,
to participate in this session.
Most of the times with someone from the commission and have a discussion about their findings,
their challenges,
and how...
things should go along.
We also give them space to exhibit.
So if someone wants to know more,
they have their own special place where they can go and discuss.
And we also give them the opportunity to be part of our media brands with articles,
with a podcast,
with a webinar.
So it's an all-in-all dissemination and communication basically that we do for these projects.
And it's not only the three days of Unlead Europe every year,
it's throughout the year.
I think this gives them the opportunity to put their faces out there and to show also the Commission because that's also important that they are making good use of the money of the taxpayers in the end of the day.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And really too often,
some really great ideas,
some great people,
they remain a little bit too confidential or they remain a little bit too much.
I mean,
we all evolve in our bubbles,
but it would be a shame really not to use this kind of visibility because it's really something that you offer.
And
I've been quite a fan for years because I think that you are really making sure that...
conversations happened and serendipitous conversations happened as well.
And
I would love to hear any story if you managed to make some matchmaking at the end of the day.
Okay,
so here's the thing.
Yes,
this is the best.
When I hear from projects telling me,
oh,
I got a really nice contact with X utility or
Y solution provider.
And now we're discussing about the second phase of the project.
This is the best part.
and to fortify that even more,
this year we're going to have a matchmaking session.
It is our first time.
I am a little bit scared,
to be honest.
I'm not afraid to admit it,
but I'm also very excited because I think that this will be even more spot on with what we want to do.
Another thing that is new,
and maybe you don't know it either,
because it's very,
very new,
is that for the first time in seven years,
we are also part of a project consortium.
It's called
Decoded. It's on digital twin.
And we're collaborating with Q-Technologies from Greece and from other countries.
And we're doing dissemination and communication for them.
Like we have the entire package.
And let me tell you,
the excitement my entire team felt when we created the roadmap of the beautiful and interesting goodies that we would give was amazing.
Yeah,
I can see that.
I mean,
our listeners can't hear it,
but I'm sure they can see it,
but I'm sure they hear it.
that you are smiling and that you are feeling really proud and I mean it's been quite a journey right to really from journalism to a kind of project manager now it's it's been a shift also at your level right yes but I do remain a journalist always in my heart and
I am also the Brussels editor for Enlid so I will continue writing I will continue being the podcast host and all that and I will continue above all bringing a little bit of
what I learned at the university,
so my academic background,
ethics in conversation,
because I truly believe that we can't do anything right unless we do it ethically right also.
So I hear sometimes that Europe is behind,
let's say,
in renewables,
Europe is behind in hydrogen,
Europe is,
yeah,
Europe is a little bit behind because we're doing it the right way,
because we care about the environment,
because we care about people,
because this is...
What Europe stands for,
we have a very robust ethical background that we cannot just overlook it.
I will not name countries because
I don't want to name and shame.
But yes,
if you have no morals,
let's say,
or no robust and moral rules and regulations,
then yes,
you go ahead and you will create like a thousand photovoltaics.
And then what?
Then you will kill birds.
Then you will kill small communities.
Is that what we want in Europe?
No,
I think we want sustainability,
we want a green future,
but we want that to be ethical too,
right?
Yeah,
I mean,
this is tutorial music to my ears.
And if you just take the name of this podcast,
which is Energetic,
it is,
of course,
what it is all about.
And at the end of the day,
it's about sparking the conversations and having like the people who make a difference,
who really genuinely want to make a difference and want to move the lines in a way that is kind of unprecedented,
because we need this kind of unprecedented strength.
joined together to think differently and to act differently.
What are you looking forward,
let's say,
with the project you are coordinating and also with the
European Sustainable Energy Week?
Because we are releasing this podcast on the
12th of June and it's the middle of the European Sustainable Energy Week.
So any insights,
anything that you would like to share?
Okay,
when it comes to European Sustainable Energy Week,
I do have a wish list of people that I want to interview and I really hope it's going to happen.
So when this podcast episode goes live,
I hope that I already have some of the interviews that
I want to do,
mainly with the three ladies of
DGNR. So the commissioner,
the director and the deputy director.
Kadri Simpson,
I will not say the other names because they're really difficult to pronounce.
I will only say the first names and I apologise in advance to the ladies.
It's not of lack of disrespect.
It's of lack of pronunciation.
So Dieter and Mechthild also.
I would love to interview these three.
I think that they have done a wonderful job at the European Commission,
at DGNR.
And just between you and me,
I hope with the new voting,
I hope that they stay where they are because I do believe that they have...
good work in front of them to do also.
So this is when it comes to Sustainable Energy Week,
the nice people,
the nice conversations.
And yes,
we will also know the new,
let's say,
constitution of the
European Commission and the European Parliament,
which is going to be very important.
The second thing I'm looking forward is the inauguration of Decoded,
which is happening the same days as Sustainable Energy Week.
So it's going to be a very hectic week for us.
and I'm looking forward to meeting the other members of the consortium and when it comes to my baby project the
EU project zone at Enlid in Milan in October end of October I'm hoping to have at least 100 projects this year and to have some very nice conversations and to have projects coming to me afterwards and telling me you know what
we met some really interesting people,
we had some really interesting conversations,
and we know how to solve perhaps a problem or two.
Yeah,
exactly.
It's about thinking out of the box.
And those matchmaking sessions are really about meeting people with complementary skills and viewpoints.
And something that I've been also noticing from and late from you and your colleagues as well,
because I don't know how many you are,
but you are quite numerous,
but you've been putting a lot of efforts
on promoting gender balance as well.
And I don't know if it's something that you have been decided really,
let's say,
consciously going to,
but,
you know,
there are only about a fourth of women in the energy sector of the workforce is a female,
basically.
But at the end of the day,
there is really a good gender balance also in the panels,
also in the discussion,
also in the teams as well.
So is it something that
You put a lot of efforts on.
Personally,
I'm a feminist and I'm saying it out loud.
And yes,
I always try.
I remember back in the day when gender equality wasn't a thing in the energy sector yet,
where our conference was like 90% white middle-aged males.
I remember that I created the first panel discussion in the summit,
all women.
and I was so proud of it.
It backclassed,
not only from men,
but from women also,
and not within Enlid.
Enlid and our director,
Paddy Young,
was always,
we were always up for the challenge,
always wanting to bring more women,
people from different races,
from different genders,
from different sexual orientations.
And yes,
he has been very,
very supportive to that.
And now I see.
Six years after that first try,
I see more and more women.
Last year in our advisory committee meeting,
the Impact Circle,
my table was all women and one man.
I was so proud of it.
I didn't even do it on purpose.
It just happened.
So I think that at least when it comes to males and females,
we're getting there.
It's more and more women and young women that enter the field.
And I'm very hopeful for that.
Now we just need to change some other things like race,
sexual orientation,
things like that.
I think it's also really nice to see that because you give visibility really to the people who decide to join in late.
And from what I've seen,
all the facilities of the big events that you organize,
they are all accessible for everyone.
And,
you know,
I would say that the only thing that is missing is a daycare for people like me who have small children and would like to participate to the conference.
And then while knowing that my child is being taken care of.
But,
you know,
it's all these little things that at the end of the day make a huge difference because you put the spotlight on the people and their achievements and their capabilities as well.
And that is also how you make sure that you build somehow those role models,
because many people need role models and they need to be beyond the middle aged white men that you mentioned earlier.
So I think it's really what I'm...
I really appreciate that you take on board some people and you ask them to be present,
but you also make sure that the presence is fully acknowledged,
right?
That you are building on this community of people.
You have a very,
very,
very faithful community around you.
Like you mentioned the impact cycle.
I'm also part of this one.
And really this year we had like a gender balance.
That was amazing.
That was really cool.
And that's really the kind of conversations that happen at different levels.
And that's,
I find it super inspiring to be honest and really something that many organizations should be looking up to,
right?
Yes,
I think so too.
I think that you can't,
of course,
force someone to make the right choice,
but you can lead by example.
And this is what I think we're trying to do and we are succeeding hopefully at Enlid and at Clarion,
our mother,
let's say,
company.
They are also very much into sustainability,
into equality.
I'm quite happy with the initiatives that they have as an employee.
And to be honest,
what you said about the daycare.
resonated with me and even though I don't have kids and I will take it to our ops team and see if we can do something because that's a beautiful idea that's brilliant although I think that the problem would be that young kids are not allowed in events but I'll take it to them and let's see what they say okay
we'll see so let's meet in a couple of years and see if it makes a difference but yeah that would be lovely but
I mean you're sharing some great example and great success but did you have any
Backlash,
because now there is quite a trend also to share like the something where you put some efforts into and then you realize that it didn't work for many reasons.
Maybe you tried,
maybe it was a big fail.
So to learn out of these mistakes,
are there any anything you would like,
like you would feel open to share now?
I remember back in the day,
I tried to create a data circle and do a report for the commission.
And it was so much work and so hard.
Yes,
it fully backlashed.
We did it for a year.
I loved it.
We had also a very nice session,
but then I killed it like the instant the session finished.
I'm like,
I'm not doing this again.
Yeah,
absolutely.
We have backlashes.
Last year,
we didn't put a carpet.
I mean,
even simple things.
We didn't put a carpet.
Why?
Because we wanted to be green,
because we wanted to care about sustainability,
about energy footprint.
You have no idea,
I didn't know how much,
not only how much it cost us money,
how much it cost us energy and garbage and everything to have a huge carpet around the floor.
This is something that you destroy right after you use it.
You cannot recycle it,
you can't do anything with that.
So we tried to not have it,
we tried it last year.
That was a backlash on this one.
Not everybody was as happy with it.
Personally,
I thought it looked good and I felt morally superior for having that,
let me be honest.
But yeah,
backlash.
And this year,
I don't know what we're going to do.
You know,
I was there last year.
It was in Paris and I was surprised to see the carpet.
And
I thought,
okay,
maybe it wasn't delivered on time.
There was a problem with it.
Maybe it was just a problem of communication somehow that you didn't say we chose explicitly not to have a carpet for sustainability reasons.
And maybe that's also one of the reasons why there was a backlash,
right?
Because I remember talking about with you and you told me,
yeah,
that's really environmental recent and we'd be excited to have a carpet.
And now I can't see really hate carpets myself.
Now I'm just like,
okay,
let's remove all carpets everywhere.
But it's also because I know.
Now you educated me,
I know now that carpets are really bad for the environment,
right?
I really think we could have done it better with the communication,
that was our bad.
I really hope we don't go back to carpet.
If we can't really get it out completely,
maybe find another solution.
But when I really educated myself also and found out what it means to have a carpet,
I was like,
no,
thank you,
not anymore.
Yeah,
I mean,
that's really a great example of something you kind of learned the hard way also,
because people don't understand the reasons why such an approach is taken.
And what you're doing with your project zone and what you're doing really with your various endeavors as a journalist and making sure that this communication passes is part of an education process,
right?
It's part of making sure there is a bigger conversation happening.
let's say,
little nudges are making big waves,
right?
You add a pinch of salt,
you add some spices,
and that makes a delicious meal instead of a bland one.
And you know what's fun?
That when you're doing the nudge,
when you're nudging,
you don't even realize how much power that small gesture has.
It's only after an X amount of time,
a couple of years,
that you see it suddenly blossoming in front of you.
Like,
for example,
we see all those beautiful,
intelligent,
confident,
capable,
strong young women in the energy sector.
And I feel so proud as if they were my own daughters or my sisters or I don't know,
my mothers.
Well,
not the young girls,
of course,
but it is a beautiful sentiment also for a woman and a feminist.
Yeah,
I mean,
you've been showing the way in many different ways.
I mean,
that's a terrible way of putting it.
But yeah,
you've been kind of a beacon for lots of really making sure that conversation happens differently with different people,
with different viewpoints as well.
And I think it's great to have this platform also coming from the private sector.
I mean,
we've been talking a lot about how the public sector can influence the future of energy,
the sustainability in general.
But.
You're a private company,
right?
You're a private business.
And you've been pushing those ideas because of the sum of the people you are in and because of the values of your company,
right?
Yeah,
absolutely.
We are a commercial entity.
This is open and known.
But that doesn't mean that we don't have a conscience,
that we don't have moral principles and that we don't want to put our own little,
let's say,
stone in this beautiful building that is called Europe.
And
I must admit,
we are really pro.
European Commission,
in case you haven't noticed by everything I'm saying right now.
And we are following a lot on their mandates.
That doesn't mean that we will not call on them,
let's say,
or say,
you know what,
maybe we disagree in this one.
But yeah,
all in all,
I would say I'm quite happy with the way things are going.
And one more thing that I would like to add is.
I know that most of us in Europe say that all public sector in the Commission and they're using the taxpayers money,
they're really using the taxpayers money for good work.
I've met a lot of officers,
policy officers,
communication officers,
heads of departments in the European Commission,
and I really believe that they are passionate about what they're doing.
They really believe in what they're doing.
I'm talking about the energy sector,
but
I'm sure this is all around the base.
Is it something you notice at other levels or where would you like to see more of this passion?
To be honest,
in the associations,
I think.
I think the associations in Europe are doing a brilliant job,
yes,
but they could be more passionate about changing the world than changing the world for their own members.
They could be a little bit more holistic.
I understand it's difficult.
You need to focus somewhere.
But I would like for them to see the big picture and collaborate a little bit more.
That's really an interesting point and also
I would expect something you can try to bring forward with the reviews that you publish and the events that you organize because you always try to have a balance of viewpoints.
And having someone like me with really strong moral or ethics writing and I don't want to hide my ethics to please other companies or viewpoints,
etc.
Having people like me.
Having a conversation with somebody who may represent a private sector that is being seen as something as,
let's say,
quote unquote,
evil or somehow is really important.
It's also some uncomfortable conversations.
Absolutely.
I've been feeling that is something that very often in,
let's say,
association events,
those kind of uncomfortable conversations don't really happen,
right?
Yes,
and this is something that we need to change.
Like for example,
and I will be a little bit specific,
it's not strange that at Enlid we always invite Rescoop and we want to have their opinion on the table.
It's not a coincidence that we invite BEUC.
So we need everybody.
We need everybody in the discussion and we need to stop being kind to our own,
let's say,
members and try to also show that some things can be done differently.
So,
yes,
the difficult discussions need to happen.
I don't want to be more specific because
I don't want to say something that might hurt someone because it doesn't matter.
Also,
I don't want to do that.
That's not the point.
Associations are very important.
And I know most of the heads of the association.
And they're brilliant people.
I mean,
if you take them,
they're all brilliant.
They're very well educated.
They know their things and they're doing them well.
I just would like for them to be a little bit more,
to let themselves become a little bit more uncomfortable sometimes.
This is something that the European Commission is doing.
This is something that utilities also and solutions providers sometimes are doing.
But when they come all together,
sometimes they just want to say how awesome we all are.
And yeah.
We're not.
We have a lot to learn and a lot of things to do.
Yeah,
I think that's also one of the reasons why I wanted to hear about kind of your things that you failed as an organization that is thriving and that is bringing a lot of good and is really paving the way for other,
let's say,
best practice and making sure that different alternative voices are being shown and heard,
etc.
And it takes courage.
And I think I like it and have been comfortable around.
your team because you've been really showing me that it was possible to to have courage within my work right thank you for that that's very beautiful thing to say thank you so much yes indeed uh i mean i don't make a payment that often but uh yeah let me let it make it to you but
uh yeah so i mean i mean i've i've been feeling that i've been learning a lot uh around you and from the events and the conferences and the readings as well and there is so much to do you
I also feel that if we just clash,
we don't get anywhere.
But if we merge and we are able to have uncomfortable situations,
that's also where the magic happens and that we make something good and we also show that a different alternative way is possible.
I mean,
I've been feeling that lately on the show,
I've been inviting a lot of rebel thinkers,
and you are definitely one of those as well.
Thank you so much,
Alital.
I take it with pride and happiness.
But not a rebel without a cause.
I do have a cause.
And the cause is more inclusiveness and more collaboration,
because this is the most important thing.
Do not exclude anyone.
Even,
let's say,
the nuclear people,
even the coal people,
they need to be part of the discussion.
We're not going to do anything if we don't sit down.
and discuss and collaborate.
So,
and I think that this,
at the end,
is a message of EnLit Europe and EnLit Media.
Let's all sit down at the same table and have an honest discussion.
Yeah,
I really like that.
And thank you,
Rui,
for bringing it forward.
And,
I mean,
we're going to see you a lot in the coming months.
So,
first,
that's your Urban Sustainability Week.
If anybody is listening to this episode while going to Youssef,
please reach out to Arete or me because we're going to be there.
And yeah,
and who knows,
maybe you will be our next podcast.
And so in
Milan at the end of October.
So my notes is from Milan,
Italy,
Roviera from October
22 to 24.
So that's going to be exciting.
And in the meantime,
you're going to publish a lot of things and be on various platforms as well.
Exactly.
Thank you so much for this invitation,
Marin.
I really liked it.
I'm not often given the opportunity to discuss ethics,
but now this time I'm given this opportunity twice.
Once with your brilliant podcast series,
Energetics.
I really like it.
You know that.
And the second from Sustainable Energy Week,
they gave me the opportunity to write an article on ethics and that will be published on the
6th of June,
I think.
So,
yeah,
I'm quite happy.
My background is doing a happy dance right now.
That's great.
And also we recorded another podcast episode together and I will put the link in the show notes and please catch up with it.
I mean,
that time you will hear me speaking a lot.
I really speak a lot,
but even more.
You have a lot to say,
eh?
That's why you speak.
That's the important thing.
I hope so.
Thank you so much,
Arati.
Thank you,
Marin.
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic.
It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there.
I'm Maureen Cornelis,
your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer.
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