WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.918 --> 00:00:04.119 Hello! 2 00:00:04.741 --> 00:00:06.126 Passionate about sustainability, 3 00:00:06.267 --> 00:00:07.130 energy and climate? 4 00:00:07.713 --> 00:00:08.536 You're in the right place. 5 00:00:08.956 --> 00:00:09.980 Welcome to Energetic. 6 00:00:10.582 --> 00:00:11.466 I'm Maureen Cornelis, 7 00:00:11.767 --> 00:00:18.456 and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen. 8 00:00:19.196 --> 00:00:20.380 They may be activists, 9 00:00:20.601 --> 00:00:21.223 scientists, 10 00:00:21.605 --> 00:00:23.853 policy makers or other enthusiasts, 11 00:00:24.194 --> 00:00:24.796 just like you. 12 00:00:25.517 --> 00:00:31.456 Let their life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet. 13 00:00:34.809 --> 00:00:38.148 Today's episode is proudly sponsored by the Energy Prospects Project. 14 00:00:38.688 --> 00:00:45.388 This Horizon 2020 initiative is at the forefront of exploring how energy citizenship can drive the European transition. 15 00:00:46.309 --> 00:00:47.272 In this new episode, 16 00:00:47.332 --> 00:00:53.608 we'll dive into the vital role of civic engagement in shaping a sustainable democratic energy system across Europe. 17 00:00:54.208 --> 00:00:57.782 Stay tuned as we unravel how citizens are not just consumers, 18 00:00:58.123 --> 00:01:00.548 but pivotal actors in this transformative journey. 19 00:01:01.777 --> 00:01:03.863 Our guest today is Yanis Breizhka, 20 00:01:04.084 --> 00:01:10.532 a linchpin in the realms of sustainable development and consumption at Green Liberty and the University of Latvia. 21 00:01:11.253 --> 00:01:16.432 His journey weaves through the dual threads of environmental science and public administration, 22 00:01:17.132 --> 00:01:22.032 showcasing a commitment to bridging academic rigor with actionable governance. 23 00:01:22.703 --> 00:01:24.267 Yanis's role from leading 24 00:01:24.648 --> 00:01:33.460 WWF Latvia environmental policy to his economic pursuits highlight a career dedicated to innovative solutions for a sustainable future. 25 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:39.420 Yanis has been influential within several projects and Bankwatch Network, 26 00:01:39.761 --> 00:01:44.220 and he really champions interdisciplinary approaches to environmental challenges. 27 00:01:45.021 --> 00:01:48.500 I'm sure you will be as inspired as I am by his work. 28 00:01:49.066 --> 00:01:52.624 which propels the global conversation on sustainability and makes 29 00:01:53.005 --> 00:01:57.060 Yanis a key figure in shaping a greener and more equitable world. 30 00:01:57.800 --> 00:01:58.125 Yanis, 31 00:01:58.368 --> 00:01:59.200 welcome to Energetic. 32 00:02:00.246 --> 00:02:00.397 Hello. 33 00:02:01.209 --> 00:02:02.792 So let's start from the beginning. 34 00:02:02.992 --> 00:02:14.808 So your engagement with environmental advocacy and research started at a time when Latvia was kind of just opening to such concepts. 35 00:02:15.248 --> 00:02:23.507 So what did motivate you to embark on this path and how did this kind of early experience shape your current endeavours? 36 00:02:24.211 --> 00:02:24.503 Yeah. 37 00:02:24.769 --> 00:02:25.030 End of 38 00:02:25.470 --> 00:02:31.879 80s, when Soviet Union was kind of collapsing and going through the transitional period, 39 00:02:32.399 --> 00:02:38.367 environmental movement started to kind of develop and grow in many of the Eastern European countries, 40 00:02:38.407 --> 00:02:39.188 including Latvia. 41 00:02:39.849 --> 00:02:45.237 And that was maybe one of the ways how actually people could gather, 42 00:02:45.477 --> 00:02:50.805 talk and debate some kind of political issues, 43 00:02:50.865 --> 00:02:52.528 but through this environmental lens. 44 00:02:52.651 --> 00:02:53.020 Now, 45 00:02:53.687 --> 00:02:54.770 At that time, 46 00:02:56.273 --> 00:02:56.734 in Riga, 47 00:02:56.794 --> 00:02:57.636 for example, 48 00:02:57.896 --> 00:03:01.524 there were several big demonstrations on environmental concerns, 49 00:03:01.964 --> 00:03:09.044 gathering tens of thousands of people against some kind of development projects at that time. 50 00:03:09.184 --> 00:03:13.695 So it was not possible to mobilize people on political grounds, 51 00:03:13.856 --> 00:03:17.284 but the environment was okay. 52 00:03:18.836 --> 00:03:24.206 And that was also the time that many people started to kind of joining the movement because it was, 53 00:03:25.288 --> 00:03:25.428 yeah, 54 00:03:25.589 --> 00:03:27.292 many people were joining in. 55 00:03:28.134 --> 00:03:29.537 I was a teenager at the time, 56 00:03:29.698 --> 00:03:35.472 so I was also getting involved in this environmental debate. 57 00:03:36.352 --> 00:03:38.820 But if we look now and compare, 58 00:03:39.201 --> 00:03:39.603 I think... 59 00:03:40.765 --> 00:03:40.906 Yeah, 60 00:03:40.926 --> 00:03:43.229 environmental movement in the 80s and 61 00:03:43.790 --> 00:03:52.384 90s was much more about values and more ethical debates. 62 00:03:53.185 --> 00:03:54.810 Now it's more, 63 00:03:55.151 --> 00:03:55.653 I don't know, 64 00:03:55.673 --> 00:03:56.436 utilitarian, 65 00:03:56.837 --> 00:03:58.744 looking at lifestyles. 66 00:03:58.824 --> 00:04:03.819 What can you do at household level to improve your environmental performance, 67 00:04:03.1000 --> 00:04:05.304 decrease energy consumption? 68 00:04:05.445 --> 00:04:09.764 So it's much more practical now when it was compared to what it was in the 90s. 69 00:04:10.588 --> 00:04:11.090 That's really, 70 00:04:11.170 --> 00:04:12.956 really interesting because the other day, 71 00:04:13.257 --> 00:04:14.180 for whatever reason, 72 00:04:14.200 --> 00:04:15.364 I was listening to Manu Chao. 73 00:04:18.909 --> 00:04:20.051 You remember at the end of the 74 00:04:20.491 --> 00:04:21.453 90s, early 2000s, 75 00:04:23.195 --> 00:04:28.643 he was one of the voices behind this kind of movement about uniting people wherever they are, 76 00:04:28.663 --> 00:04:29.364 whatever the language they speak. 77 00:04:29.926 --> 00:04:31.432 And his songs, 78 00:04:32.557 --> 00:04:33.400 at the time at least, 79 00:04:33.400 --> 00:04:34.364 they were very much about 80 00:04:35.512 --> 00:04:44.428 like respecting nature and etc but it was never very practical and what you say about like this kind of now we have a more utilitarian approach 81 00:04:44.957 --> 00:04:45.718 And for instance, 82 00:04:45.718 --> 00:04:46.961 if we continue with music, 83 00:04:47.141 --> 00:04:48.985 with bands like Coldplay, 84 00:04:49.165 --> 00:04:52.252 who tries to mobilize on climate through their concert, 85 00:04:52.552 --> 00:04:54.175 it's true that it's quite a shift, 86 00:04:54.256 --> 00:04:54.436 right? 87 00:04:54.957 --> 00:04:58.331 It's really interesting to see it from your perspective, 88 00:04:58.371 --> 00:04:59.576 because I thought it was only me. 89 00:05:00.761 --> 00:05:01.042 Like, 90 00:05:01.042 --> 00:05:01.605 what did happen? 91 00:05:01.887 --> 00:05:02.530 There was something. 92 00:05:02.550 --> 00:05:03.756 There was a different conversation. 93 00:05:05.118 --> 00:05:06.180 So you noticed it. 94 00:05:06.300 --> 00:05:10.689 And I think what's really interesting is that you noticed it as an activist somehow, 95 00:05:11.070 --> 00:05:13.875 and also in academia and also in administration, 96 00:05:13.996 --> 00:05:14.196 right? 97 00:05:15.049 --> 00:05:15.229 Yeah, 98 00:05:15.469 --> 00:05:15.609 well, 99 00:05:15.629 --> 00:05:15.970 I mean, 100 00:05:15.990 --> 00:05:22.976 I started working for environmental organizations in the 90s, 101 00:05:23.036 --> 00:05:28.821 and there was a lot of discussions about sustainable development at the time, 102 00:05:28.821 --> 00:05:29.061 you know, 103 00:05:29.121 --> 00:05:31.623 after the Rio conference in 1992, 104 00:05:31.643 --> 00:05:34.785 which was just after the Latvian independence, 105 00:05:35.246 --> 00:05:37.668 and also on the political level. 106 00:05:38.986 --> 00:05:46.543 All kind of debates about how we should organize the governance processes for not only for environment, 107 00:05:46.583 --> 00:05:47.184 for everything. 108 00:05:48.124 --> 00:05:54.136 There was a lot of discussion about this balance between economic development, 109 00:05:54.877 --> 00:05:58.624 environmental protection and social justice equality. 110 00:05:59.785 --> 00:06:01.229 And these were in 111 00:06:01.610 --> 00:06:02.613 90s, at least in that way, 112 00:06:03.295 --> 00:06:04.759 not very easy debate because... 113 00:06:05.533 --> 00:06:05.934 Of course, 114 00:06:05.994 --> 00:06:10.108 the dominant focus was for economic growth. 115 00:06:10.370 --> 00:06:11.740 It's still there. 116 00:06:11.881 --> 00:06:12.807 I think it's still there. 117 00:06:13.388 --> 00:06:17.748 For catching up with the rest of Western Europe in terms of material wealth, 118 00:06:18.549 --> 00:06:29.168 now we can see that most of the environmental impacts are because of this rush for material welfare of the society. 119 00:06:30.181 --> 00:06:44.700 We consume way too much energy and resources and build our wealth on converting environmental resources into goods and products and services for short-term consumption. 120 00:06:45.421 --> 00:06:48.080 And this is still a problematic issue. 121 00:06:49.827 --> 00:06:50.109 Yeah, 122 00:06:50.250 --> 00:06:51.960 the debate never disappeared. 123 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:52.221 No, 124 00:06:52.241 --> 00:06:54.340 it's still there. 125 00:06:54.860 --> 00:06:55.061 Yeah, 126 00:06:55.102 --> 00:06:57.455 it has shifted in many, 127 00:06:57.656 --> 00:07:02.920 many different ways because the situation is totally different now from then. 128 00:07:03.303 --> 00:07:04.680 But when we prepared this podcast, 129 00:07:04.780 --> 00:07:11.960 you also told me that Latvia still relies a lot on forest biomass for its energy well-being. 130 00:07:12.341 --> 00:07:14.1000 So it presents quite a unique challenge. 131 00:07:15.222 --> 00:07:15.545 And 132 00:07:16.312 --> 00:07:16.594 I mean... 133 00:07:17.047 --> 00:07:17.549 Biomass, 134 00:07:17.609 --> 00:07:18.110 of course, 135 00:07:18.171 --> 00:07:19.775 it's somehow renewables, 136 00:07:19.815 --> 00:07:28.844 but can you tell us more about the Latvian forest and why it does matter that it is actually preserved or conserved in a certain way? 137 00:07:29.787 --> 00:07:29.947 Yeah, 138 00:07:30.649 --> 00:07:32.854 this is one of the biggest, 139 00:07:32.914 --> 00:07:33.195 maybe, 140 00:07:33.736 --> 00:07:37.364 nature conservation debates in Latvia about the forest sustainability. 141 00:07:38.184 --> 00:07:38.847 And generally, 142 00:07:39.128 --> 00:07:40.915 Latvia's energy sector is, 143 00:07:41.578 --> 00:07:42.080 you could say, 144 00:07:42.502 --> 00:07:43.024 rather green. 145 00:07:43.284 --> 00:07:43.404 No, 146 00:07:43.465 --> 00:07:46.554 we don't have any local fossil fuels, 147 00:07:47.176 --> 00:07:48.199 fossil resources, 148 00:07:48.239 --> 00:07:49.844 no coal or oil. 149 00:07:50.266 --> 00:07:53.904 So then we are depending on external resources. 150 00:07:54.144 --> 00:07:55.583 We are using natural gas. 151 00:07:56.210 --> 00:07:58.504 There is no coal for heat and power production. 152 00:07:59.044 --> 00:07:59.707 Daugava River, 153 00:07:59.787 --> 00:08:01.474 which is the biggest river, 154 00:08:01.555 --> 00:08:03.804 has several hydroelectric dams, 155 00:08:03.904 --> 00:08:05.464 which were built during the Soviet time. 156 00:08:06.344 --> 00:08:07.651 But otherwise, 157 00:08:08.817 --> 00:08:10.304 there is very little fossil fuel. 158 00:08:10.464 --> 00:08:12.712 So in terms of energy production, 159 00:08:13.214 --> 00:08:15.864 the CO2 emissions are comparatively small. 160 00:08:16.284 --> 00:08:19.724 And we have a very big share of renewable energy. 161 00:08:19.825 --> 00:08:22.005 It's more than 40% of the... 162 00:08:22.533 --> 00:08:24.902 Electricity is produced from the renewables, 163 00:08:24.962 --> 00:08:26.087 including the biomass. 164 00:08:26.408 --> 00:08:29.282 The biomass makes a big part of that. 165 00:08:31.191 --> 00:08:31.492 And also, 166 00:08:31.633 --> 00:08:35.167 especially for heating in rural areas and smaller towns, 167 00:08:35.910 --> 00:08:41.408 the heating is provided through the biomass power plants or CHP plants. 168 00:08:42.313 --> 00:08:45.408 And the country is covered with forests. 169 00:08:45.690 --> 00:08:48.368 More than half of the country's territory is forest. 170 00:08:48.990 --> 00:08:50.274 And it's one of the big... 171 00:08:51.355 --> 00:09:05.707 export products for also energy wise we are also exporting wood pellets to other countries for energy production so latvia is i think top five biomass exporters 172 00:09:06.028 --> 00:09:17.532 for for energy and that's of course causes yeah big debates about the sustainability and how sustainably are we managing our forests 173 00:09:18.361 --> 00:09:19.002 Previously, 174 00:09:19.102 --> 00:09:20.765 before the war in Ukraine, 175 00:09:21.065 --> 00:09:25.912 Latvia was importing also forest biomass from 176 00:09:26.472 --> 00:09:32.180 Russia and Belarus for local production and then export of the products. 177 00:09:32.220 --> 00:09:39.500 So now it's closed and the forest industry is really lacking the resources to convert into product. 178 00:09:40.356 --> 00:09:45.612 So that's been a big pressure to increase the extraction of the Latvian forest. 179 00:09:46.112 --> 00:09:47.716 And just a few weeks ago, 180 00:09:48.318 --> 00:09:53.712 the environmental movement won the court case against the government, 181 00:09:54.012 --> 00:09:55.636 the constitutional court against that, 182 00:09:55.877 --> 00:10:02.432 so that the government wanted to decrease the diameter of trees to be allowed for cutting. 183 00:10:02.552 --> 00:10:03.575 So that was a big win. 184 00:10:04.057 --> 00:10:04.919 But yeah, 185 00:10:04.939 --> 00:10:07.787 I guess the fight is not really... 186 00:10:08.541 --> 00:10:09.207 ended with this. 187 00:10:09.689 --> 00:10:14.908 There will be other ways how to try to use this natural resource. 188 00:10:15.329 --> 00:10:18.187 And I think it's very similar like in other countries where you have, 189 00:10:18.708 --> 00:10:18.996 I don't know, 190 00:10:19.079 --> 00:10:23.468 Poland with big coal deposits or similar in Germany. 191 00:10:24.374 --> 00:10:28.384 It's not very easy to kind of stop using these resources and say, 192 00:10:28.465 --> 00:10:28.587 no, 193 00:10:29.011 --> 00:10:36.428 we keep them for environmental or natural conservation or sustainability purposes or for recreational purposes. 194 00:10:37.111 --> 00:10:37.657 Because the... 195 00:10:39.896 --> 00:10:42.926 Many people see it as money lying down on the ground. 196 00:10:43.167 --> 00:10:46.604 You can just get it and use it. 197 00:10:47.207 --> 00:10:48.077 The same for oil. 198 00:10:49.027 --> 00:10:51.494 Many countries which are rich in oil deposits, 199 00:10:52.898 --> 00:11:02.544 it will be very hard to convince them to leave these resources in the ground because of climate change or other reasons. 200 00:11:03.728 --> 00:11:05.058 I'm rather pessimistic, 201 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:05.541 aren't we? 202 00:11:05.925 --> 00:11:13.763 How are we going to convince these countries or companies not to extract the resources they have? 203 00:11:14.504 --> 00:11:14.868 Yeah, 204 00:11:14.949 --> 00:11:15.677 that's very, 205 00:11:15.717 --> 00:11:16.223 very interesting. 206 00:11:16.864 --> 00:11:18.468 I've heard of situations, 207 00:11:18.488 --> 00:11:18.990 for instance, 208 00:11:18.990 --> 00:11:19.692 in Costa Rica, 209 00:11:20.274 --> 00:11:23.423 where there are some international groups that want to pay. 210 00:11:24.470 --> 00:11:29.402 the countries and the landowners to not cut the lands, 211 00:11:30.083 --> 00:11:43.285 not cut the trees and be sure that to preserve the land because it has a value the way it is because the trees are carbon sinks and they are part of a broader ecosystem and a broader conservation strategy. 212 00:11:44.027 --> 00:11:44.591 And I mean, 213 00:11:44.711 --> 00:11:46.684 that's a very nice transition to the... 214 00:11:47.526 --> 00:11:51.216 concept of energy communities that you've been working on, 215 00:11:51.276 --> 00:11:52.319 including with the Energy 216 00:11:52.861 --> 00:11:53.723 Prospect project. 217 00:11:54.364 --> 00:11:58.163 You also told me that energy cooperatives or maybe cooperatives in general, 218 00:11:58.704 --> 00:12:02.938 they are relatively uncommon in the Baltic states, 219 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:04.303 in particular in Latvia. 220 00:12:05.064 --> 00:12:06.831 So from your experience, 221 00:12:07.434 --> 00:12:07.835 first, 222 00:12:08.177 --> 00:12:09.663 what are the main hurdles? 223 00:12:10.105 --> 00:12:10.789 And second, 224 00:12:11.472 --> 00:12:13.663 would they be a way for people to... 225 00:12:14.350 --> 00:12:19.907 better acknowledge that they have resources somehow that they need to preserve for them, 226 00:12:20.169 --> 00:12:22.487 for their kids and for their grandkids as well. 227 00:12:23.256 --> 00:12:23.416 Yeah, 228 00:12:23.877 --> 00:12:38.491 I think that's one of the problems for most of the post-Soviet countries when cooperatives had collective farms for agriculture, 229 00:12:39.092 --> 00:12:42.375 which was not a very efficient way of production. 230 00:12:42.936 --> 00:12:45.201 And most of the people were not very, 231 00:12:46.043 --> 00:12:46.284 maybe, 232 00:12:46.404 --> 00:12:49.110 happy by being engaged in that. 233 00:12:49.110 --> 00:12:51.315 So we have these negative connotations. 234 00:12:52.594 --> 00:12:57.551 The whole concept of cooperative business or cooperative management of resources. 235 00:12:58.571 --> 00:13:07.271 And also currently there is very few cooperatives or cooperative activities in Latvia and other Baltic states. 236 00:13:07.933 --> 00:13:14.011 And I believe this is one of the reasons because of this kind of historical inheritance. 237 00:13:15.373 --> 00:13:21.211 There are some cooperatives for farmers when they are sharing the tractors and some equipment. 238 00:13:22.081 --> 00:13:26.652 some other cooperatives maybe but it's not a common movement, 239 00:13:26.692 --> 00:13:37.899 not a movement with history like in many other countries where the cooperative movement started in the beginning already of the 20th century or even the end of 19th century. 240 00:13:38.882 --> 00:13:44.438 And it's become the part of the business as usual for many cases. 241 00:13:45.504 --> 00:13:51.779 then it's also easy to go maybe from agricultural cooperative to energy cooperative because it's even more complicated. 242 00:13:52.619 --> 00:13:58.999 Energy system as well has been something which has been very centralized most of the time. 243 00:13:59.420 --> 00:14:05.359 So both the energy production and energy distribution has been in the hands of the state. 244 00:14:06.560 --> 00:14:10.079 The big energy production companies or state grid, 245 00:14:10.682 --> 00:14:12.977 which people were just... 246 00:14:13.761 --> 00:14:14.631 final consumers. 247 00:14:15.514 --> 00:14:18.731 You pay the bill and you get the energy. 248 00:14:19.893 --> 00:14:27.511 There was no need for public engagement in debates or in some kind of practical activities around energy. 249 00:14:28.473 --> 00:14:35.511 You could complain when it's too expensive maybe or you have the blackouts or product is not provided. 250 00:14:36.071 --> 00:14:36.716 But otherwise, 251 00:14:36.736 --> 00:14:38.831 there was no need for engagement. 252 00:14:39.011 --> 00:14:39.132 Now, 253 00:14:39.172 --> 00:14:42.651 I think the situation has significantly changed 254 00:14:43.414 --> 00:14:45.278 Both technologically, 255 00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:50.931 we have technologies like for example solar panels which everyone can put on their rooftops. 256 00:14:51.512 --> 00:14:57.728 There's been a very big development during last few years in Latvia after the 257 00:14:58.410 --> 00:14:58.951 Russian war in Ukraine. 258 00:15:00.225 --> 00:15:04.310 All the governmental debate shifted to move away from the gas, 259 00:15:04.370 --> 00:15:06.774 which we mostly supplied from Russia, 260 00:15:07.274 --> 00:15:07.715 and oil, 261 00:15:07.835 --> 00:15:10.499 which was also mostly from Russia, 262 00:15:10.539 --> 00:15:13.583 to find other ways of producing energy. 263 00:15:14.144 --> 00:15:17.891 One way would be to substitute with gas from somewhere else, 264 00:15:17.971 --> 00:15:18.212 like 265 00:15:18.793 --> 00:15:20.937 LTG from the US or some other countries, 266 00:15:21.779 --> 00:15:23.963 but also increase the local production. 267 00:15:24.953 --> 00:15:25.478 There was a... 268 00:15:26.174 --> 00:15:33.231 The subsidy system introduced to install solar panels and heat pumps and some other technologies. 269 00:15:33.811 --> 00:15:39.331 So a lot of people during the last two years have used this opportunity. 270 00:15:41.394 --> 00:15:42.277 And now we have, 271 00:15:42.377 --> 00:15:42.678 I think, 272 00:15:42.718 --> 00:15:47.231 tripled the solar power production compared to a few years ago. 273 00:15:47.733 --> 00:15:51.091 It's been a very big shift in public engagement. 274 00:15:52.248 --> 00:15:53.633 There are a lot of consumers, 275 00:15:53.834 --> 00:15:56.083 people who produce energy at home. 276 00:15:57.025 --> 00:15:59.083 Energy market has been also liberalized. 277 00:15:59.383 --> 00:16:00.065 So you can also, 278 00:16:00.165 --> 00:16:01.568 if you are not producing energy, 279 00:16:01.869 --> 00:16:04.616 you can also choose from different providers, 280 00:16:04.696 --> 00:16:07.503 both the heat and gas and power consumption. 281 00:16:08.104 --> 00:16:09.743 So you have to follow different prices. 282 00:16:13.235 --> 00:16:16.466 You have to think much more about your energy habits, 283 00:16:17.550 --> 00:16:18.172 your practices. 284 00:16:19.353 --> 00:16:24.072 Energy costs have also significantly increased during these few years. 285 00:16:24.553 --> 00:16:29.392 So people have to be engaged in energy debates and practices. 286 00:16:30.172 --> 00:16:32.772 And that's a good ground for energy citizenship, 287 00:16:33.092 --> 00:16:42.052 because you are pushed into the energy citizen in a way by these economic structural changes which we see. 288 00:16:42.758 --> 00:16:44.228 during these last years. 289 00:16:45.089 --> 00:16:47.685 And my concern is that... 290 00:16:48.715 --> 00:16:50.628 Maybe not all the people are ready for that. 291 00:16:51.572 --> 00:16:54.948 There are a lot of people who are passive in energy prospects. 292 00:16:55.128 --> 00:17:04.328 We also run a representative public survey which showed that most of the people don't really want to be so much engaged in these discussions. 293 00:17:04.628 --> 00:17:06.933 They just want to have green, 294 00:17:07.214 --> 00:17:07.534 cheap, 295 00:17:08.236 --> 00:17:13.788 reliable energy and they don't want to think about these things. 296 00:17:15.211 --> 00:17:23.508 And my concern is that these people will be losing out because they will be paying more than necessary for these energy services. 297 00:17:23.990 --> 00:17:27.702 They will not choose the right energy products. 298 00:17:27.722 --> 00:17:29.528 They will not engage in energy production. 299 00:17:30.249 --> 00:17:33.335 So that could increase the energy poverty, 300 00:17:33.415 --> 00:17:40.528 which is already comparatively high in a country where some people cannot afford the high energy costs. 301 00:17:42.115 --> 00:17:47.491 That's really interesting because what you're saying is that essentially more and more people 302 00:17:48.412 --> 00:17:53.308 are interested in green energy and understanding that it matters. 303 00:17:53.889 --> 00:17:55.237 And they also want cheap energy, 304 00:17:55.478 --> 00:17:56.182 which is, 305 00:17:56.725 --> 00:17:57.168 of course, 306 00:17:57.728 --> 00:17:59.797 also one of the promises of renewables, 307 00:17:59.817 --> 00:18:02.508 that it could provide really cheap energy. 308 00:18:03.168 --> 00:18:03.690 However, 309 00:18:04.072 --> 00:18:10.528 they may not really have the tools or the means to understand how to make that really happen to them. 310 00:18:11.351 --> 00:18:15.027 And somehow there is like a discrepancy between the... 311 00:18:15.438 --> 00:18:17.852 the intention and what the utilities, 312 00:18:18.392 --> 00:18:21.332 traditional utilities and governments are actually delivering, 313 00:18:21.773 --> 00:18:27.312 which is not a service that is 100% green and 100% cheap for everyone. 314 00:18:27.572 --> 00:18:33.049 And that's where there is an opportunity for energy communities to actually fill this gap, 315 00:18:33.190 --> 00:18:33.372 right? 316 00:18:34.191 --> 00:18:34.331 Yeah, 317 00:18:34.491 --> 00:18:41.888 energy communities is something which is in infancy still. 318 00:18:42.528 --> 00:18:44.653 It's something which is, 319 00:18:45.375 --> 00:18:50.348 we see the potential for these energy communities to develop. 320 00:18:50.870 --> 00:18:56.828 There is legal work done by the government to actually describe the possibilities, 321 00:18:57.028 --> 00:18:59.984 how these energy communities can develop, 322 00:19:00.225 --> 00:19:00.748 can function. 323 00:19:01.478 --> 00:19:09.316 But there are still only a few examples we could look at for the energy communities. 324 00:19:09.857 --> 00:19:21.811 There are several municipalities we've been talking to which say that they're really looking forward ways how to get support for the people, 325 00:19:21.892 --> 00:19:25.416 for local communities to use this possibility. 326 00:19:26.164 --> 00:19:27.115 One example would be 327 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:28.161 In many, 328 00:19:28.642 --> 00:19:30.247 many bigger towns in Latvia, 329 00:19:30.307 --> 00:19:33.176 people live in bigger multi-apartment buildings. 330 00:19:33.477 --> 00:19:36.368 Built maybe in the 70s during the 331 00:19:37.473 --> 00:19:38.216 Soviet era. 332 00:19:39.056 --> 00:19:40.863 They had big potential, 333 00:19:40.924 --> 00:19:41.446 for example, 334 00:19:41.546 --> 00:19:44.116 for solar production on their rooftops. 335 00:19:44.816 --> 00:19:46.142 But what we are missing, 336 00:19:46.142 --> 00:19:48.996 we are missing good technical tools. 337 00:19:49.554 --> 00:19:57.172 For sharing both the energy and also then the costs and income from this production. 338 00:19:58.052 --> 00:20:03.592 And an additional barrier which we see is very low trust of public. 339 00:20:04.334 --> 00:20:08.727 There is generally very little trust in institutions, 340 00:20:09.028 --> 00:20:09.830 in government, 341 00:20:09.890 --> 00:20:10.572 in politicians. 342 00:20:11.768 --> 00:20:16.741 People don't trust also that today decisions by the government, 343 00:20:16.781 --> 00:20:17.824 if the government says, 344 00:20:17.984 --> 00:20:18.225 okay, 345 00:20:18.567 --> 00:20:20.474 we want to support energy communities, 346 00:20:20.775 --> 00:20:21.840 that it will be lasting, 347 00:20:22.060 --> 00:20:35.484 that after five or three years we'll be on the same track because people maybe see too much variations in where we are moving if we look back 10 to maybe 15 years. 348 00:20:36.147 --> 00:20:42.044 And that's a limiting factor for people to get engaged and to participate in these kind of movements. 349 00:20:43.205 --> 00:20:46.433 One more thing with the multi-apartment buildings is that, 350 00:20:47.456 --> 00:20:50.724 which is a good thing and a bad thing at the same time, 351 00:20:51.266 --> 00:20:53.395 is that in these buildings, 352 00:20:54.057 --> 00:20:55.704 we don't have a high... 353 00:20:56.293 --> 00:20:57.637 public segregation. 354 00:20:57.697 --> 00:21:00.284 So there could be affluent people, 355 00:21:01.247 --> 00:21:02.370 rich people living there, 356 00:21:02.530 --> 00:21:09.470 there could be pensioners with a few hundred euro pensions living in the same building. 357 00:21:09.930 --> 00:21:14.844 And it's very hard for these people to agree on something together. 358 00:21:16.007 --> 00:21:17.592 It's not just for energy communities, 359 00:21:17.632 --> 00:21:22.950 it's also for housing insulation projects that these people are so different. 360 00:21:23.582 --> 00:21:29.037 They have different means and different knowledge levels. 361 00:21:29.578 --> 00:21:40.078 And also maybe the trust between them is not very high because they see each other from different social groups and don't want to engage. 362 00:21:40.218 --> 00:21:40.982 So yeah, 363 00:21:40.982 --> 00:21:43.675 I listed several problems and challenges. 364 00:21:44.338 --> 00:21:48.092 But I still think that energy communities is a good way forward, 365 00:21:48.573 --> 00:21:50.991 also for decreasing the energy poverty. 366 00:21:52.567 --> 00:21:53.654 for many of the communities. 367 00:21:54.054 --> 00:21:59.604 And we have to work with these kind of tools to make it easier, 368 00:22:00.186 --> 00:22:01.974 to make it more practical, 369 00:22:02.477 --> 00:22:05.954 and also to develop... 370 00:22:06.950 --> 00:22:08.118 A few good examples. 371 00:22:08.540 --> 00:22:10.708 People really trust in examples, 372 00:22:10.708 --> 00:22:11.370 in good examples. 373 00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:27.097 If they see that the neighboring house or neighboring community has done something and it's working and they can go and talk to each other in the park and then see that it's really working and people are happy about the result, 374 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:31.110 then it's a much more bigger chance for the ideas to spread. 375 00:22:32.384 --> 00:22:36.389 That's really interesting because you mentioned trust really several times, 376 00:22:36.389 --> 00:22:38.932 like low trust in administration, 377 00:22:38.952 --> 00:22:39.533 in government, 378 00:22:39.673 --> 00:22:42.016 low trust in utilities, 379 00:22:42.096 --> 00:22:46.662 low trust in your own neighbor because they may have a totally different social background. 380 00:22:46.843 --> 00:22:47.085 I mean, 381 00:22:47.508 --> 00:22:49.622 the fact that there are a lot of social... 382 00:22:50.687 --> 00:22:54.582 differences within the same building can be quite inspiring also. 383 00:22:55.564 --> 00:22:59.102 But it's somehow a forced situation. 384 00:22:59.343 --> 00:23:10.702 And there are some examples that I have myself worked on about really improving the quality of the building because it's one of the key ways to address energy poverty. 385 00:23:11.322 --> 00:23:18.242 And some people who are not able to pay were actually leaving the buildings because they just couldn't afford it. 386 00:23:18.303 --> 00:23:18.769 And they were... 387 00:23:19.078 --> 00:23:24.014 they were against going against the tide and they were not benefit this way. 388 00:23:24.535 --> 00:23:35.529 They were not their choice or their inability to make a choice or make an investment was actually impairing their ability to live a more sustainable, 389 00:23:35.650 --> 00:23:37.154 resilient lifestyle as well. 390 00:23:37.355 --> 00:23:41.554 And somehow the fact that you see hope also in... 391 00:23:42.461 --> 00:23:44.574 examples coming from other communities. 392 00:23:45.255 --> 00:23:48.494 It's also what Adina said in the previous episode. 393 00:23:49.015 --> 00:23:53.814 It's also that sometimes you just need to start the conversation in a certain way. 394 00:23:54.235 --> 00:23:59.392 And maybe you start the conversation by noticing something that is happening in another community, 395 00:23:59.853 --> 00:24:00.014 right? 396 00:24:00.581 --> 00:24:01.743 And in her case, 397 00:24:01.763 --> 00:24:08.198 she mentioned a lot of environmental friendly projects that had nothing to do with energy. 398 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.586 But at the end of the day, 399 00:24:09.646 --> 00:24:11.256 they were all related to energy, 400 00:24:11.397 --> 00:24:11.558 right? 401 00:24:12.341 --> 00:24:16.618 It's like the important is to what matters is to have really a starting point. 402 00:24:17.022 --> 00:24:18.217 So what kind of strategies? 403 00:24:18.998 --> 00:24:21.247 Because within the Energy Prospects project, 404 00:24:22.070 --> 00:24:23.998 you have talked to many stakeholders. 405 00:24:24.318 --> 00:24:26.698 You have assessed a lot of situations. 406 00:24:26.919 --> 00:24:29.213 So what kind of strategy or... 407 00:24:29.610 --> 00:24:31.966 models would you like to bring home to Latvia? 408 00:24:32.786 --> 00:24:44.266 And would you think that would make a huge difference in fostering environmental sustainability and cooperation between the different people with different backgrounds, 409 00:24:44.970 --> 00:24:46.646 with the different stakeholders we have at stake? 410 00:24:46.706 --> 00:24:48.384 Because it's not only about households, 411 00:24:48.424 --> 00:24:48.586 right? 412 00:24:48.727 --> 00:24:50.646 It's about creating the right ecosystem. 413 00:24:51.486 --> 00:24:51.607 Yeah, 414 00:24:51.727 --> 00:24:53.015 through the energy prospect, 415 00:24:53.437 --> 00:24:58.303 we have collected more than 500 cases of energy citizenship across 416 00:24:58.705 --> 00:24:58.926 Europe. 417 00:24:59.741 --> 00:25:04.855 And there are plenty of good examples which we would be happy to bring home. 418 00:25:05.838 --> 00:25:12.860 Many of the energy citizenship examples also focuses on not only on energy but also on social aspects, 419 00:25:13.661 --> 00:25:21.616 getting maybe more disadvantaged social groups involved in energy production. 420 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:23.727 And some of the... 421 00:25:24.687 --> 00:25:27.431 Some of the initiatives around transportation, 422 00:25:27.471 --> 00:25:27.751 I think, 423 00:25:27.851 --> 00:25:29.813 would be very important also for Latvia, 424 00:25:29.873 --> 00:25:34.799 because in our survey of the energy citizenship cases, 425 00:25:34.819 --> 00:25:40.466 we couldn't really identify much of the energy citizenship in a field of transport. 426 00:25:40.526 --> 00:25:43.606 But transport is one of the big energy consumers. 427 00:25:43.767 --> 00:25:48.264 And if in the heat and power sectors we can... 428 00:25:49.142 --> 00:25:54.178 easily find ways to replace by renewables or improve efficiency, 429 00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:56.358 then the transportation sector, 430 00:25:57.563 --> 00:26:00.338 the best thing would be to move to public transport. 431 00:26:01.139 --> 00:26:06.778 But that's more or less a possibility for urban people. 432 00:26:07.220 --> 00:26:08.665 But in rural areas, 433 00:26:09.027 --> 00:26:15.549 we have a very low population density and there is a very poor... 434 00:26:15.909 --> 00:26:32.074 public transportation service network provided so rural people without car are really disabled for for getting access to the to the public services like i don't know getting to the hospital or the shop for the car is 435 00:26:32.074 --> 00:26:36.706 uh is uh impossible and and that wouldn't also mean this 436 00:26:37.860 --> 00:26:38.141 People, 437 00:26:38.201 --> 00:26:41.046 they wouldn't have money to buy electric cars, 438 00:26:42.128 --> 00:26:43.972 which are much more expensive, 439 00:26:44.012 --> 00:26:47.058 even if the government is currently providing the subsidy scheme. 440 00:26:47.899 --> 00:26:50.966 But many of these existing government initiatives, 441 00:26:50.986 --> 00:26:51.728 like I mentioned, 442 00:26:52.790 --> 00:26:53.793 for solar panels, 443 00:26:53.853 --> 00:26:54.795 for heat pumps, 444 00:26:54.895 --> 00:26:56.018 for electric cars. 445 00:26:56.949 --> 00:26:58.653 They are meant for people with income, 446 00:26:59.154 --> 00:27:00.658 with rather high incomes, 447 00:27:00.798 --> 00:27:03.986 who can afford the upfront investment costs. 448 00:27:05.368 --> 00:27:07.345 They have knowledge on how to... 449 00:27:08.949 --> 00:27:11.362 how to apply for projects and so on. 450 00:27:12.266 --> 00:27:13.602 And then they can get the money back. 451 00:27:13.943 --> 00:27:15.442 Part of the money gets from the government. 452 00:27:16.003 --> 00:27:20.802 But this is not really designed for people with lower income. 453 00:27:22.183 --> 00:27:23.448 And there is a big, 454 00:27:23.870 --> 00:27:26.542 I think there is a big gap there for Latvia. 455 00:27:28.565 --> 00:27:31.782 Energy poverty is still a big problem. 456 00:27:32.702 --> 00:27:36.419 And we don't really provide good solutions, 457 00:27:36.459 --> 00:27:37.022 good instruments. 458 00:27:37.162 --> 00:27:40.434 And different energy citizenship initiatives, 459 00:27:41.176 --> 00:27:42.842 low-tech solutions, 460 00:27:43.222 --> 00:27:51.528 things like building your own solar collectors or things like that could be a good way, 461 00:27:52.290 --> 00:27:52.812 low-cost, 462 00:27:52.872 --> 00:27:57.594 low-tech ways of helping people to get... 463 00:27:58.357 --> 00:28:05.154 energy services they need in a kind of environmentally sustainable way. 464 00:28:05.354 --> 00:28:07.853 So I think there is a lot of work to do. 465 00:28:08.194 --> 00:28:08.777 There are many 466 00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:12.294 NGOs who are actually doing these things, 467 00:28:12.414 --> 00:28:16.354 but this usually is kind of case by case. 468 00:28:16.574 --> 00:28:20.014 It's not really a societal movement. 469 00:28:20.495 --> 00:28:22.474 It's just individual cases. 470 00:28:23.265 --> 00:28:32.389 So that's where this kind of community has to go beyond really a structured community of people such as a cooperative, 471 00:28:32.389 --> 00:28:36.820 but really go with the community of people who want to shape the future together. 472 00:28:37.022 --> 00:28:41.581 And I think somehow it's the conversation that happens actually. 473 00:28:42.414 --> 00:28:42.956 Everywhere, 474 00:28:43.779 --> 00:28:44.902 anywhere I bring my podcast, 475 00:28:44.902 --> 00:28:47.330 I receive feedbacks like that. 476 00:28:47.410 --> 00:28:52.130 Like we need to bring people on board and sometimes it works really well because we have a common ground. 477 00:28:52.550 --> 00:28:55.610 And some other times it's because we have a common enemy. 478 00:28:56.190 --> 00:28:56.351 Well, 479 00:28:57.777 --> 00:28:59.124 it's not that shiny, 480 00:28:59.184 --> 00:29:00.510 but that is the case. 481 00:29:01.130 --> 00:29:02.056 But really, 482 00:29:02.076 --> 00:29:04.109 it's about really finding things that... 483 00:29:04.437 --> 00:29:19.036 talk to to to really manage to to to reach people in the way that they they feel that they have to do something and so what do you think latvia would need really to accelerate its transition towards 484 00:29:19.077 --> 00:29:30.834 cleaner more sustainable consumption way and and cleaner energy what would it need really yeah i think that's a that's a big uh big question but um 485 00:29:31.911 --> 00:29:34.082 I believe that there is... 486 00:29:35.183 --> 00:29:41.640 There is a need for stronger public engagement in looking for these solutions and visions. 487 00:29:42.862 --> 00:29:49.091 Moving away from seeing public as a kind of passive consumer, 488 00:29:49.352 --> 00:29:52.517 but looking into this citizenship, 489 00:29:53.939 --> 00:29:54.680 that takes time. 490 00:29:57.026 --> 00:30:01.580 It's not maybe a short-term approach or short-term decisions. 491 00:30:01.600 --> 00:30:02.272 It's not that... 492 00:30:02.971 --> 00:30:17.181 the next year or everybody will be engaged but we have to we have to demonstrate these these good examples we have to provide simple understandable 493 00:30:18.543 --> 00:30:31.454 solutions both technological but in terms of kind of organizational solutions and and that could be helpful way way forward you 494 00:30:31.842 --> 00:30:32.483 As I mentioned, 495 00:30:33.285 --> 00:30:36.150 there are many NGOs who are working, 496 00:30:36.190 --> 00:30:41.520 and I think civil society is a good way forward, 497 00:30:41.780 --> 00:30:42.322 because, 498 00:30:42.763 --> 00:30:43.445 like I mentioned, 499 00:30:43.686 --> 00:30:45.452 there is low trust in government, 500 00:30:45.954 --> 00:30:47.860 and civil society is much more trusted. 501 00:30:49.641 --> 00:30:53.574 Engaging research in finding these good solutions, 502 00:30:53.715 --> 00:30:54.016 I think, 503 00:30:54.518 --> 00:30:54.939 is also... 504 00:30:55.925 --> 00:30:57.236 kind of crucial. 505 00:30:58.767 --> 00:31:01.316 There are different research programs, 506 00:31:02.577 --> 00:31:04.830 but sometimes they, 507 00:31:05.535 --> 00:31:05.676 yeah, 508 00:31:06.643 --> 00:31:18.316 maybe we focus too much on this fundamental research and not really try to look for these practical solutions for specific communities. 509 00:31:18.737 --> 00:31:23.796 There is also a lot of myths around energy production and consumption. 510 00:31:23.816 --> 00:31:24.490 There is a 511 00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:32.276 Many people who believe in all kinds of conspiracy theories around that, 512 00:31:32.817 --> 00:31:36.343 and especially for wind energy, 513 00:31:36.423 --> 00:31:37.064 for example, 514 00:31:37.204 --> 00:31:44.476 and for something else that shows this public awareness level on some of these issues. 515 00:31:45.176 --> 00:31:46.700 That's really super interesting and 516 00:31:47.041 --> 00:31:50.071 I didn't know that there were any kind of conspiracy, 517 00:31:50.613 --> 00:31:50.833 right? 518 00:31:51.235 --> 00:31:54.948 It's so hard for me to fathom that I can't pronounce the word. 519 00:31:55.149 --> 00:31:59.570 I didn't know that there were any conspiracy against wind energy because it seems like, 520 00:31:59.590 --> 00:31:59.771 I mean... 521 00:32:00.262 --> 00:32:01.906 From what I know about Baltic countries, 522 00:32:01.926 --> 00:32:07.880 you have also some neighbors who are quite pioneering in using more wind in their grids. 523 00:32:08.140 --> 00:32:10.940 And that seems to be quite straightforward somehow. 524 00:32:11.261 --> 00:32:13.505 And also because you are very north, 525 00:32:13.545 --> 00:32:21.200 so I would imagine that solar energy sometimes is not working as well as it does in more southern countries. 526 00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:21.761 So, 527 00:32:21.761 --> 00:32:21.942 you know, 528 00:32:21.982 --> 00:32:24.652 it seems really from an outsider perspective, 529 00:32:25.134 --> 00:32:26.640 wind looks way more. 530 00:32:27.329 --> 00:32:43.979 suitable somehow really uh really i don't know anything about latvia and you know i would imagine that it fits better to to the actual climate but but now you say it is like oh wow so if people don't are on themselves believing that well it 531 00:32:43.999 --> 00:32:56.748 creates i mean there is this enormous awareness gap that needs to be that needs to be addressed right yeah yeah i mean in summer we have the white night so the sun all almost 20 hours a day but 532 00:32:57.422 --> 00:33:00.136 But it's just maybe a few weeks. 533 00:33:01.216 --> 00:33:01.858 Like you said, 534 00:33:02.641 --> 00:33:07.816 winter months are very dark and there is very little solar production. 535 00:33:08.757 --> 00:33:13.336 But there is a huge wind energy potential. 536 00:33:14.176 --> 00:33:14.617 I mean, 537 00:33:14.678 --> 00:33:16.162 Baltic states are bought by the sea, 538 00:33:16.182 --> 00:33:20.736 so there is also offshore wind energy potential in the Baltic Sea. 539 00:33:21.776 --> 00:33:24.069 But there is a very big, 540 00:33:24.451 --> 00:33:25.276 not in my backyard, 541 00:33:25.670 --> 00:33:35.468 There is a resistance movement for wind park developments in Latvia and that's why the wind energy is very poorly developed. 542 00:33:35.648 --> 00:33:40.128 There are a few projects also going in offshore and also there. 543 00:33:40.468 --> 00:33:48.422 Local coastal communities are campaigning against the wind turbines, 544 00:33:48.442 --> 00:33:49.183 which would be maybe... 545 00:33:49.628 --> 00:33:52.496 10-15 kilometers in the sea, 546 00:33:52.556 --> 00:34:07.874 but people say that would destroy their special view and all kind of things which I think are mostly grounded in that we don't know or there are some other interests from 547 00:34:08.055 --> 00:34:13.696 maybe competing energy producers to not to develop the wind energy. 548 00:34:14.831 --> 00:34:18.227 There is one more project now in Latvia where 549 00:34:18.903 --> 00:34:28.421 Latvian State Energy Company and Latvian State Forests are developing a joint project to build the wind farms in the forest because there is no people. 550 00:34:28.962 --> 00:34:30.741 So there is no one to complain. 551 00:34:31.462 --> 00:34:31.783 Of course, 552 00:34:31.823 --> 00:34:39.521 that's maybe not the best way from an environmental perspective because you have to cut the forests to put up the wind turbines there. 553 00:34:40.264 --> 00:34:41.667 But yeah, 554 00:34:41.787 --> 00:34:50.181 it seems to be the best forward-going project currently because there is little people to complain about this project because they are 555 00:34:50.837 --> 00:34:52.469 further away from anyone. 556 00:34:52.789 --> 00:34:59.449 So that's unfortunately the reality for some of the technological solutions. 557 00:34:59.569 --> 00:35:02.389 But we don't always have to rely on technology. 558 00:35:02.549 --> 00:35:16.388 We have to think more about the sufficiency of energy consumption and maybe also look into these latent forms of energy citizenship for those who are shifting from gas to solar or something else. 559 00:35:17.012 --> 00:35:24.785 But those who are looking for ways not to consume energy so much as they did for like energy diets of the future. 560 00:35:25.329 --> 00:35:27.766 And we are over consuming energy in many ways. 561 00:35:28.229 --> 00:35:29.513 And in the future, 562 00:35:29.534 --> 00:35:32.503 we have to think much more how to conserve energy, 563 00:35:32.704 --> 00:35:35.682 how to not over consume it and conserve it. 564 00:35:36.449 --> 00:35:40.329 And that's that's also not not very easy way forward because 565 00:35:40.988 --> 00:35:50.037 Many of these visions about the future energy and sustainable energy says that we have a lot of renewable, 566 00:35:50.298 --> 00:35:50.599 cheap, 567 00:35:51.242 --> 00:35:51.543 green, 568 00:35:51.663 --> 00:35:52.085 affordable. 569 00:35:53.126 --> 00:35:53.347 But 570 00:35:54.392 --> 00:35:57.044 I think we will be getting into other... 571 00:35:57.757 --> 00:36:02.033 problems with access of resources, 572 00:36:03.600 --> 00:36:04.167 for example, 573 00:36:04.228 --> 00:36:04.673 biomass, 574 00:36:04.953 --> 00:36:08.132 which we already discussed in Latvia or in other countries, 575 00:36:08.293 --> 00:36:16.173 but also solar energy or electric cars need a lot of mineral resources to provide. 576 00:36:16.653 --> 00:36:22.253 I don't think that we can get an electric car for every inhabitant on the planet. 577 00:36:22.433 --> 00:36:22.554 No, 578 00:36:22.594 --> 00:36:26.652 we will not be able to provide so much energy. 579 00:36:27.004 --> 00:36:41.085 so much resources and even if we have it know that there will be huge traffic jams all all over the place so we have to look for other ways how to how to actually uh get what uh what we want not to get these energy 580 00:36:41.165 --> 00:36:55.180 services uh which are which are needed and and what we expect from life from what is a good life in general now that it's a much bigger picture and bigger question maybe going out of the energy the bed but uh but uh 581 00:36:55.871 --> 00:36:56.032 Yeah, 582 00:36:56.112 --> 00:37:03.948 generally the debate about the good life and sustainable consumption corridors is also something which we are looking into. 583 00:37:04.529 --> 00:37:09.723 How much is enough so that it's enough for you to satisfy your kind of basic needs, 584 00:37:09.763 --> 00:37:11.889 but you are also not killing the planet by it. 585 00:37:12.549 --> 00:37:12.670 Yeah, 586 00:37:12.670 --> 00:37:17.685 and that's definitely the principles behind sufficiency rather than really efficiency, 587 00:37:17.785 --> 00:37:19.129 making sure that it works better. 588 00:37:19.230 --> 00:37:20.075 But actually, 589 00:37:20.075 --> 00:37:21.907 it also delivers better within the... 590 00:37:22.772 --> 00:37:26.160 the best limits of our planet and really to make sure that, 591 00:37:26.240 --> 00:37:26.901 let's say, 592 00:37:26.962 --> 00:37:32.239 the energy climate transition that we need don't deplete other resources, 593 00:37:32.300 --> 00:37:34.249 especially in other places or countries. 594 00:37:35.425 --> 00:37:35.545 So, 595 00:37:36.368 --> 00:37:36.608 I mean, 596 00:37:36.729 --> 00:37:39.236 it's been a super fascinating conversation, 597 00:37:39.517 --> 00:37:39.818 Yanis, 598 00:37:39.878 --> 00:37:41.879 but we are arriving at the very end. 599 00:37:42.402 --> 00:37:42.523 So, 600 00:37:42.724 --> 00:37:46.215 but I would like to leave really the floor to you because, 601 00:37:46.215 --> 00:37:46.376 I mean, 602 00:37:46.416 --> 00:37:55.332 you have such an interesting double hat as an activist with Green Liberty and as a researcher with the University of Latvia. 603 00:37:56.082 --> 00:38:01.640 So is there one thing that really makes you hopeful about Latvia or some? 604 00:38:02.111 --> 00:38:02.231 Yeah, 605 00:38:02.614 --> 00:38:04.765 really good example that you would like to share. 606 00:38:05.446 --> 00:38:05.647 Yeah, 607 00:38:05.647 --> 00:38:09.365 let's say if somebody wants to get inspired by Latvia, 608 00:38:09.545 --> 00:38:12.265 what would you like them to keep in mind? 609 00:38:13.636 --> 00:38:21.193 I think there are many good examples which we could look at. 610 00:38:22.334 --> 00:38:24.477 There are permaculture, 611 00:38:24.517 --> 00:38:25.378 for example, 612 00:38:26.419 --> 00:38:26.920 movement, 613 00:38:26.980 --> 00:38:27.460 which is, 614 00:38:28.582 --> 00:38:28.882 I think, 615 00:38:28.922 --> 00:38:34.428 getting popularity where people are looking into these simple solutions, 616 00:38:35.069 --> 00:38:38.353 something which you can do it by yourself for providing. 617 00:38:39.503 --> 00:38:40.384 Both housing, 618 00:38:40.504 --> 00:38:42.847 food and energy, 619 00:38:43.708 --> 00:38:49.056 which really follow the sufficiency principles we just discussed, 620 00:38:49.096 --> 00:38:52.641 that you're not really over-consuming resources. 621 00:38:52.861 --> 00:39:02.561 You're looking for local resources which are available in the community to build your well-being. 622 00:39:03.344 --> 00:39:04.648 So there are many, 623 00:39:05.110 --> 00:39:05.872 many of these, 624 00:39:05.892 --> 00:39:06.294 you can say, 625 00:39:06.354 --> 00:39:08.080 crazy people who are trying to... 626 00:39:09.455 --> 00:39:13.689 find other ways on how to live their lives. 627 00:39:14.890 --> 00:39:15.051 And 628 00:39:15.757 --> 00:39:17.209 I think that's inspiring. 629 00:39:19.795 --> 00:39:22.428 That may be not the mainstream now. 630 00:39:23.249 --> 00:39:34.808 I think it's very important that we have communities and organizations who are doing these social experiments and testing out these solutions. 631 00:39:35.188 --> 00:39:35.308 And 632 00:39:35.809 --> 00:39:45.828 I hope also inspire other people and could kind of encourage this ripple effect on getting other more people engaged. 633 00:39:46.740 --> 00:39:51.476 Scaling up many of these energy citizenship initiatives. 634 00:39:52.452 --> 00:39:56.066 I'm learning also from other countries how they've been doing and 635 00:39:57.110 --> 00:40:01.332 I'm looking forward to this process to take ground. 636 00:40:02.443 --> 00:40:03.271 That's really amazing. 637 00:40:03.392 --> 00:40:03.673 I mean, 638 00:40:03.794 --> 00:40:03.994 with 639 00:40:04.697 --> 00:40:06.142 Etina in the previous episode, 640 00:40:06.363 --> 00:40:08.290 we concluded that she was actually a rebel. 641 00:40:08.832 --> 00:40:09.917 She had rebel ideas, 642 00:40:09.957 --> 00:40:12.851 but you do also have rebel ideas. 643 00:40:13.173 --> 00:40:13.715 And you know, 644 00:40:13.816 --> 00:40:17.332 I didn't know that Energy Prospects was actually a project to... 645 00:40:17.741 --> 00:40:18.665 With Rebels, 646 00:40:18.825 --> 00:40:19.930 about Rebel ideas, 647 00:40:19.990 --> 00:40:21.576 that's truly inspiring. 648 00:40:21.616 --> 00:40:24.056 And really today I learned a lot. 649 00:40:24.276 --> 00:40:26.776 So thank you so much for this super insightful discussion. 650 00:40:27.616 --> 00:40:27.857 And 651 00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:32.596 I would like also to thank the Energy Prospect project managers and team. 652 00:40:33.412 --> 00:40:35.172 Thank you for making this episode possible. 653 00:40:35.392 --> 00:40:38.085 They have been our sponsor for these two episodes, 654 00:40:38.105 --> 00:40:39.110 50 and 51. 655 00:40:39.852 --> 00:40:44.026 And now we're going to have also the following episode, 656 00:40:44.708 --> 00:40:45.912 the last part of the series. 657 00:40:46.432 --> 00:40:51.332 So we will further explore the impact of energy citizenship in the urban energy transition. 658 00:40:52.072 --> 00:40:57.912 So please stay tuned and join us next time to continue uncovering the significant strides. 659 00:40:58.767 --> 00:41:01.280 being made towards achieving the EU climate ambition, 660 00:41:01.841 --> 00:41:03.499 maybe with the rebel lens. 661 00:41:03.940 --> 00:41:04.319 Who knows? 662 00:41:05.445 --> 00:41:06.216 Thank you so much, 663 00:41:06.236 --> 00:41:06.480 Yanis. 664 00:41:08.619 --> 00:41:11.516 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. 665 00:41:11.856 --> 00:41:19.696 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. 666 00:41:20.396 --> 00:41:21.260 I'm Maureen Canales, 667 00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:24.173 your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer, 668 00:41:24.555 --> 00:41:27.989 and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, 669 00:41:28.390 --> 00:41:30.150 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. 670 00:41:31.196 --> 00:41:32.460 Since 2021, 671 00:41:32.620 --> 00:41:34.105 we've shared countless stories, 672 00:41:34.265 --> 00:41:34.747 insights, 673 00:41:34.767 --> 00:41:37.856 and ideas over more than 40 episodes. 674 00:41:38.285 --> 00:41:41.320 And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. 675 00:41:42.162 --> 00:41:46.380 If you're enjoying our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, 676 00:41:46.860 --> 00:41:48.360 why not support us on Patreon? 677 00:41:49.061 --> 00:41:52.340 Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. 678 00:41:52.860 --> 00:41:54.579 Check out the show notes for the link. 679 00:41:55.340 --> 00:41:55.762 And hey, 680 00:41:56.224 --> 00:42:01.888 if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future, 681 00:42:02.390 --> 00:42:05.280 we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. 682 00:42:05.715 --> 00:42:11.732 It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. 683 00:42:12.732 --> 00:42:14.175 Shout out to the fantastic 684 00:42:14.536 --> 00:42:20.046 Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, 685 00:42:20.407 --> 00:42:22.852 making every episode a joy to listen to. 686 00:42:23.742 --> 00:42:24.766 If you haven't already, 687 00:42:25.007 --> 00:42:28.440 make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. 688 00:42:28.940 --> 00:42:32.453 And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, 689 00:42:32.814 --> 00:42:34.380 we'd love for you to spread the word. 690 00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:38.1000 It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. 691 00:42:39.580 --> 00:42:40.780 Sharing is caring. 692 00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:46.460 Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things Energetic. 693 00:42:46.901 --> 00:42:48.740 Thanks once again for lending your ears. 694 00:42:48.961 --> 00:42:49.620 Until next time. 695 00:42:51.961 --> 00:42:53.523 I need your touch, 696 00:42:53.523 --> 00:42:55.105 I need you here, 697 00:42:55.926 --> 00:42:58.669 I need your touch, 698 00:42:58.669 --> 00:43:08.060 I need you here in my body. 699 00:43:12.750 --> 00:43:14.675 I need your touch, 700 00:43:14.695 --> 00:43:17.060 I need you here in my body.