WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.620 --> 00:00:08.322 Welcome to the Be Good podcast, 2 00:00:08.702 --> 00:00:14.746 where we explore the application of behavioral economics for good in order to nudge better business and better lives. 3 00:00:16.107 --> 00:00:16.307 Hi, 4 00:00:16.647 --> 00:00:19.329 and welcome to this episode of Be Good, 5 00:00:19.889 --> 00:00:22.211 brought to you by BVNH Consulting, 6 00:00:22.771 --> 00:00:29.296 a global consultancy specializing in the application of behavioral science for successful behavior change. 7 00:00:30.076 --> 00:00:30.736 Every month, 8 00:00:30.796 --> 00:00:33.897 we get to speak with a leader in the field of behavioral science, 9 00:00:34.257 --> 00:00:35.037 psychology, 10 00:00:35.137 --> 00:00:38.718 and neuroscience in order to get to know more about them, 11 00:00:39.339 --> 00:00:39.919 their work, 12 00:00:40.019 --> 00:00:42.259 and its application to emerging issues. 13 00:00:43.060 --> 00:00:44.360 My name is Eric Singler, 14 00:00:44.480 --> 00:00:47.241 founder and CEO of BVA Nudge Consulting, 15 00:00:47.761 --> 00:00:49.361 and with me is my colleague, 16 00:00:50.061 --> 00:00:51.262 my dear colleague, 17 00:00:51.322 --> 00:00:52.022 Ted Uthoff, 18 00:00:52.162 --> 00:00:55.683 CEO of BVA Nudge Consulting UK and Global Chief 19 00:00:56.143 --> 00:00:57.543 Growth Officer. 20 00:00:58.244 --> 00:00:58.444 Hi, 21 00:00:58.564 --> 00:00:58.784 Ted. 22 00:00:59.164 --> 00:00:59.384 Hi, 23 00:00:59.444 --> 00:00:59.604 Eric. 24 00:01:00.284 --> 00:01:02.946 Happy to be back on the podcast with you for this episode. 25 00:01:03.606 --> 00:01:04.187 It's been a while. 26 00:01:04.907 --> 00:01:05.027 So 27 00:01:05.367 --> 00:01:07.549 I'm delighted to be introducing our guest for this episode, 28 00:01:07.749 --> 00:01:08.829 Professor Thomas Curran. 29 00:01:09.550 --> 00:01:15.093 Thomas is the Associate Professor in the Department of Psychological and Behavioral Science at the London School of Economics. 30 00:01:15.793 --> 00:01:19.676 And he's a world-leading expert on perfectionism and author of the best-selling book, 31 00:01:20.576 --> 00:01:21.397 The Perfection Trap, 32 00:01:22.097 --> 00:01:24.378 the science of why we never feel enough, 33 00:01:24.659 --> 00:01:26.820 which will be the focus of our conversation today. 34 00:01:28.192 --> 00:01:32.096 Thomas's TED Talk on Perfectionism received over 3 million views at last count, 35 00:01:32.676 --> 00:01:38.081 and Professor Curran has written for major international publications such as Time magazine and the Harvard Business Review. 36 00:01:39.602 --> 00:01:41.104 And his work has been featured on the BBC, 37 00:01:42.025 --> 00:01:42.585 on CNN, 38 00:01:42.885 --> 00:01:43.866 and in The New Scientist, 39 00:01:44.227 --> 00:01:44.907 New York Times, 40 00:01:45.167 --> 00:01:45.988 and the Wall Street Journal. 41 00:01:46.629 --> 00:01:46.889 Thomas, 42 00:01:47.049 --> 00:01:49.111 welcome to Be Good podcast for the first time. 43 00:01:49.912 --> 00:01:50.032 Oh, 44 00:01:50.052 --> 00:01:51.293 it's a pleasure to be here. 45 00:01:51.294 --> 00:01:52.614 I can't wait for our chat. 46 00:01:53.015 --> 00:01:54.496 Thank you for the kind introduction. 47 00:01:55.712 --> 00:01:56.152 Thomas, 48 00:01:56.493 --> 00:02:00.515 thank you again so much for being with us today. 49 00:02:01.236 --> 00:02:03.838 Before talking about the perfection chart, 50 00:02:04.738 --> 00:02:10.022 we would like to know a little more about you and your career. 51 00:02:10.603 --> 00:02:10.723 So 52 00:02:11.363 --> 00:02:14.005 I would like to ask you some questions. 53 00:02:14.485 --> 00:02:14.946 First, 54 00:02:15.446 --> 00:02:20.009 I think you earned a Master of Science by research from the University of 55 00:02:20.690 --> 00:02:23.772 Bedfordshire and a PhD in Psychology. 56 00:02:24.248 --> 00:02:25.828 from the University of Leeds. 57 00:02:26.389 --> 00:02:36.851 Could you tell us about how you came to be interested in psychology first and maybe also in burial science? 58 00:02:37.632 --> 00:02:37.852 Gosh, 59 00:02:37.912 --> 00:02:38.032 well, 60 00:02:38.112 --> 00:02:40.092 my background is not the traditional one. 61 00:02:40.392 --> 00:02:41.113 So just to, 62 00:02:41.933 --> 00:02:42.073 yeah, 63 00:02:42.193 --> 00:02:44.093 spoiler alert before we go into it, 64 00:02:44.113 --> 00:02:44.273 but 65 00:02:45.074 --> 00:02:47.894 I don't have a typical, 66 00:02:48.055 --> 00:02:49.355 I wanted to be, 67 00:02:49.955 --> 00:02:51.195 I was an athlete when I was younger, 68 00:02:51.215 --> 00:02:53.256 so I played football and 69 00:02:53.516 --> 00:03:17.823 professional football for Aston Villa so I was on their academy until I was 14 and unfortunately I got cut really brutally which is what happens sometimes you know you don't quite make the grade and they say bye-bye we're not keeping you on and that was a very devastating formative experience for me because I thought so you will be not the new Neymar no exactly no but I thought I was that's that's the tragedy and 70 00:03:18.123 --> 00:03:20.263 I thought I was going to be the next David Beckham or 71 00:03:20.763 --> 00:03:22.844 Ryan Giggs whatever and uh 72 00:03:23.244 --> 00:03:24.045 Didn't quite happen, 73 00:03:24.625 --> 00:03:25.245 but it was, 74 00:03:25.345 --> 00:03:25.586 I mean, 75 00:03:25.606 --> 00:03:31.870 obviously that was a blessing in disguise because that made me want to go to university and study a bit further. 76 00:03:32.070 --> 00:03:33.371 And if maybe I hadn't been cut, 77 00:03:33.372 --> 00:03:34.251 I wouldn't have done that. 78 00:03:34.312 --> 00:03:36.273 And so I would have had a completely different life trajectory. 79 00:03:37.093 --> 00:03:38.454 So it was a bit of a blessing in disguise. 80 00:03:38.494 --> 00:03:39.435 Even in the moment, 81 00:03:39.436 --> 00:03:40.836 it was really devastating. 82 00:03:41.236 --> 00:03:43.478 So I wanted to go and do sport, 83 00:03:43.638 --> 00:03:44.438 something to do with sport, 84 00:03:44.458 --> 00:03:49.362 because it's really interesting that I did a undergraduate degree in sport and exercise science. 85 00:03:50.062 --> 00:03:52.604 I learned a lot about the human body by 86 00:03:53.904 --> 00:04:14.253 biomechanics of human action but also interestingly i learned a lot about the psychology of human behavior particularly um what it means to perform under pressure uh how you could stay resilient under adversity um and also what motivates people to keep going when things get tough and that was something that really i don't know captured my imagination i suppose so 87 00:04:14.393 --> 00:04:21.315 that's why my master's i focused on psychology because i wanted to know more about that area i wanted to know what's going on inside the athlete's mind. 88 00:04:21.336 --> 00:04:22.496 So I studied a lot of... 89 00:04:22.716 --> 00:04:41.504 um youth sports participants and we're interested in things like burnout and engagement and motivation and what makes them tick and all the rest of it uh and i carried that on for my phd and towards the end of the phd this concept of perfectionism kept coming back because in the athlete world right high performers elite performers perfection highest 90 00:04:41.744 --> 00:04:51.648 and you know excessive standards are really the kind of norm so but you see a lot of perfectionism in this context and combined with a perfectionistic... 91 00:04:53.415 --> 00:04:56.781 views seeing the world in myself you know I put myself under a lot of pressure and 92 00:04:57.884 --> 00:05:04.677 I blamed myself and things went wrong and then I went right back to those forms of experiences being cut by the academy now devastating the wars and how I blame myself 93 00:05:05.373 --> 00:05:06.814 And I saw a lot of perfectionism myself, 94 00:05:06.815 --> 00:05:08.916 I saw a lot of perfectionism in people I was studying. 95 00:05:08.976 --> 00:05:10.958 So that was where it started. 96 00:05:11.698 --> 00:05:13.300 And then post PhD, 97 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:15.161 I started to do a lot of work in perfectionism, 98 00:05:15.221 --> 00:05:18.464 how it impacts young people in particular and says the mental health. 99 00:05:19.104 --> 00:05:20.125 And then 100 00:05:20.465 --> 00:05:24.248 I did the first study to look at how perfectionism was changing among young people, 101 00:05:24.328 --> 00:05:25.489 because that was something that interested me. 102 00:05:25.490 --> 00:05:28.232 I wanted to know whether there's a growing phenomenon. 103 00:05:28.233 --> 00:05:29.052 We found it was. 104 00:05:29.393 --> 00:05:31.214 And then that's when I got invited to do the TED talk. 105 00:05:31.234 --> 00:05:32.995 And then that's where I got invited to do the book. 106 00:05:33.116 --> 00:05:34.617 And then here we are today. 107 00:05:35.061 --> 00:05:37.923 With you guys talking about perfectionism. 108 00:05:37.964 --> 00:05:39.685 So I'd like to think that in my own little way, 109 00:05:39.686 --> 00:05:43.028 I've managed to put perfectionism on the map and I'm quite proud of that team. 110 00:05:44.529 --> 00:05:45.150 Thanks a lot. 111 00:05:45.630 --> 00:05:53.657 Could you now share with us if you have any mentors that had a particularly strong influence on you, 112 00:05:54.077 --> 00:05:55.118 any researchers, 113 00:05:55.178 --> 00:06:01.203 other people who have played an influential role in your professional career? 114 00:06:01.984 --> 00:06:02.204 Yeah, 115 00:06:03.145 --> 00:06:03.325 my... 116 00:06:03.885 --> 00:06:04.765 PhD supervisor, 117 00:06:04.845 --> 00:06:05.186 Dr. 118 00:06:05.526 --> 00:06:07.366 or Professor Andrew Hills. 119 00:06:08.027 --> 00:06:13.529 I was kind of lucky to have Andrew in my life because Andrew was a young academic when I was coming through to do my PhD at Leeds. 120 00:06:14.029 --> 00:06:17.131 He had a lot of energy to give me and he's a very good thinker, 121 00:06:17.132 --> 00:06:18.271 a very sharp thinker, 122 00:06:18.751 --> 00:06:21.492 particularly in the conceptual area of perfectionism. 123 00:06:23.513 --> 00:06:29.936 He's made some profound insights on perfectionism as a multidimensional characteristic rather than the sort of the unidimensional characteristic. 124 00:06:29.976 --> 00:06:30.776 Maybe we can go into that. 125 00:06:31.917 --> 00:06:32.437 And he's also... 126 00:06:33.173 --> 00:06:49.727 done a lot of work looking at how you analyze perfections from a multi-dimensional perspective as well because it's not as easy as it sounds but once you've got multiple pieces that's a difficult thing to statistically aggregate and I don't know so he's done a lot of work there very influential to me and then the two big titans I suppose in the field of Gordon Flett and Paul 127 00:06:50.147 --> 00:07:02.557 Hewitt have done a lot of the heavy lifting over the years developing and model of perfectionism and then developing questionnaires and testing it both in the field and also in the clinic so those are the two I would say 128 00:07:02.697 --> 00:07:05.019 big inspirational figures in my life. 129 00:07:06.080 --> 00:07:06.240 Thanks, 130 00:07:06.280 --> 00:07:06.500 Thomas. 131 00:07:06.700 --> 00:07:13.186 And you mentioned them quite early on in the book about some conversations you had in Toronto and really kind of thinking about perfectionism in a new way. 132 00:07:13.947 --> 00:07:15.348 Before we hop there, 133 00:07:16.228 --> 00:07:16.909 you mentioned, 134 00:07:17.049 --> 00:07:17.309 you know, 135 00:07:17.950 --> 00:07:23.094 playing football and kind of having a moment of letdown and change of your plans. 136 00:07:23.475 --> 00:07:25.236 You describe yourself as a perfectionist. 137 00:07:25.256 --> 00:07:30.921 Can you tell a little bit more about how that's manifested in your life and how that kind of led you on the trajectory of? 138 00:07:31.241 --> 00:07:55.463 of your study and your scholarship um oh there's so many layers to it but growing up where i came where i did in the working class community um football was your big escape really one of the biggest gateways the other one is education but you've got to be really good because you don't have like the support networks or the additional tutoring and all the rest of it that maybe other kids do so you so the easier one a 139 00:07:55.483 --> 00:07:57.465 little bit that way and also the really fun one 140 00:07:57.969 --> 00:08:19.196 is to throw yourself into something like sports right so that was kind of that was that was the way that i saw myself succeeding and of course that comes crashing down in an instant right and and then you have to re-evaluate yourself and re-evaluate your place in the world and what you're going to do and how you'll get how what's the alternative like what's the alternative route now but this one's been closed off uh so 141 00:08:19.216 --> 00:08:23.077 that's where as i mentioned that's where education and pushing myself in that sphere came. 142 00:08:23.749 --> 00:08:26.030 But I've always been quite an anxious person, 143 00:08:26.090 --> 00:08:27.291 always been a bit of an anxious kid. 144 00:08:27.311 --> 00:08:28.871 And so I don't do things by halves. 145 00:08:29.251 --> 00:08:29.752 And of course, 146 00:08:29.772 --> 00:08:30.012 you know, 147 00:08:30.092 --> 00:08:31.732 once I throw myself into something, 148 00:08:31.772 --> 00:08:34.173 I really want to do it to the maximum. 149 00:08:34.674 --> 00:08:34.954 And that, 150 00:08:34.974 --> 00:08:35.194 I think, 151 00:08:35.234 --> 00:08:38.895 comes from a lot of insecurities about not feeling good enough or not feeling like, 152 00:08:38.915 --> 00:08:39.175 you know, 153 00:08:39.816 --> 00:08:42.337 this is an area or a space that I belong in. 154 00:08:42.417 --> 00:08:45.238 And so in order to compensate or overcompensate for those feelings, 155 00:08:45.578 --> 00:08:46.798 I tend to work really hard. 156 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:48.559 I tend to try to put on my best face. 157 00:08:48.560 --> 00:08:52.401 I try to make sure that everyone sees I'm working and, 158 00:08:52.501 --> 00:08:52.861 and. 159 00:08:53.429 --> 00:09:10.396 doing a good job and all the rest of it and those neuroses these anxieties um as you go higher and higher you'd think they would ameliorate right but they don't they just get harder and harder and harder to deal with they become more powerful and they become actually uh um 160 00:09:11.577 --> 00:09:21.961 like you know they can become quite negative as an influence on your life you know you can really worry now once you go higher that you're going to get found out that people are going to see oh you know this guy 161 00:09:22.549 --> 00:09:42.821 is actually really stupid and he doesn't belong here and he doesn't know what he's talking about he's not across the statistics he's not across the details so you overcompensate even more to try to prove that you have the abilities to no one else but yourself really like every time you do something well you're relieved because you didn't screw up right so you're just proving to yourself that you can do these things and and 162 00:09:42.901 --> 00:09:48.645 you know the higher you go the worse it gets and that was kind of my experience through my phd through my postdoc and 163 00:09:48.925 --> 00:09:50.247 into my early academic career, 164 00:09:50.248 --> 00:09:50.907 I was just pushing, 165 00:09:50.947 --> 00:09:51.268 pushing, 166 00:09:51.288 --> 00:09:51.568 pushing, 167 00:09:51.608 --> 00:09:51.909 pushing, 168 00:09:51.949 --> 00:09:52.269 proving, 169 00:09:52.309 --> 00:09:52.629 proving, 170 00:09:52.649 --> 00:09:53.090 proving. 171 00:09:53.711 --> 00:10:00.298 And ultimately it culminated in some difficult mental health circumstances, 172 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:01.680 a lot of burnout. 173 00:10:02.100 --> 00:10:02.521 And that was... 174 00:10:03.009 --> 00:10:07.850 The moment where I realized this thing I was studying was also the thing that was having a negative impact on my life. 175 00:10:09.771 --> 00:10:10.071 And for you, 176 00:10:10.091 --> 00:10:10.291 Thomas, 177 00:10:10.311 --> 00:10:12.712 it was football and then academics. 178 00:10:13.372 --> 00:10:13.892 I'm American, 179 00:10:13.912 --> 00:10:14.452 as you can tell. 180 00:10:14.812 --> 00:10:18.754 And I think about kids when I was a kid and kids who I knew in the U.S. 181 00:10:18.834 --> 00:10:19.034 now. 182 00:10:19.454 --> 00:10:20.694 And I lived in Singapore for 11 years. 183 00:10:20.695 --> 00:10:23.675 There's a lot of pressure on quite young kids. 184 00:10:23.715 --> 00:10:24.615 If it's not football, 185 00:10:25.115 --> 00:10:25.675 it's basketball. 186 00:10:25.676 --> 00:10:26.516 If it's not basketball, 187 00:10:26.517 --> 00:10:26.996 it's dance. 188 00:10:26.997 --> 00:10:27.796 If it's not dance, 189 00:10:27.816 --> 00:10:28.416 it's violin. 190 00:10:28.436 --> 00:10:29.277 If it's not violin, 191 00:10:29.317 --> 00:10:30.217 it's whatever, 192 00:10:30.337 --> 00:10:30.537 right? 193 00:10:31.465 --> 00:10:32.465 It's kind of a two-pronged question. 194 00:10:32.525 --> 00:10:40.788 Are we doing a disservice by our kids to push for this kind of excellence and focus when they're just kids? 195 00:10:41.808 --> 00:10:43.108 And I guess the other part of my question is, 196 00:10:43.788 --> 00:10:45.129 you call perfectionism a trap. 197 00:10:45.130 --> 00:10:45.329 I mean, 198 00:10:45.330 --> 00:10:47.449 it's literally in the title of the book. 199 00:10:48.450 --> 00:10:55.752 What makes it a trap and how do we think about it that way instead of how it's held kind of on high? 200 00:10:57.192 --> 00:10:57.392 Well, 201 00:10:58.753 --> 00:11:00.233 the story of excellence is… 202 00:11:00.513 --> 00:11:22.182 is a very good thing you know there's nothing wrong we wanted to do well and having ambitions and high goals um i think the the issue becomes where where it's fed from and why you were doing it that's the key um and perfectionism comes from a place of insecurities it's a sense of i need to do more because to prove to myself i'm good enough or to prove to other people that i'm good enough and if 203 00:11:22.602 --> 00:11:28.925 if kids if we if we create environments for kids where they have to prove themselves via metrics and 204 00:11:29.265 --> 00:11:57.457 exam scores or test results or through performances and in their athletics and sports endeavors then we inadvertently i think teach them that they're only really worth something when they've done well in a certain activity or domain and that they're worth less if they haven't succeeded right and that changes the meaning of that success very subtly but importantly from a place of purpose meaning ambition wanting to do well to a place of having to almost justify ourselves we 205 00:11:57.477 --> 00:11:58.217 always feel like we're 206 00:11:58.621 --> 00:12:01.243 We're in the court of appeal for ourselves all the time, 207 00:12:01.303 --> 00:12:06.046 trying to exonerate ourselves of our sins or of our inadequacies, 208 00:12:06.146 --> 00:12:06.326 right? 209 00:12:06.866 --> 00:12:09.127 And that's like existing in quicksand, 210 00:12:09.187 --> 00:12:09.348 right? 211 00:12:09.349 --> 00:12:11.529 Because you can never ever stay above the surface. 212 00:12:11.589 --> 00:12:15.731 There's always going to be moments where you're going to find challenge and things are going to get on top of us. 213 00:12:16.332 --> 00:12:18.373 And that's where the mental health difficulties start to come in. 214 00:12:18.413 --> 00:12:20.734 So I don't think strife or excellence is a bad thing, 215 00:12:20.795 --> 00:12:22.035 but it's just about why and how, 216 00:12:22.836 --> 00:12:24.757 why we're doing it that could be problematic. 217 00:12:26.973 --> 00:12:27.653 Early on in the book, 218 00:12:27.834 --> 00:12:32.736 you talk about perfectionism is not just this kind of blanket term or thing. 219 00:12:32.876 --> 00:12:33.237 In fact, 220 00:12:33.297 --> 00:12:35.818 you look at kind of three types of perfectionism. 221 00:12:36.458 --> 00:12:38.440 You talk about other-oriented, 222 00:12:38.680 --> 00:12:40.641 self-oriented and socially prescribed. 223 00:12:41.661 --> 00:12:42.482 I know that's complex, 224 00:12:42.542 --> 00:12:44.903 but quite quickly for our listeners, 225 00:12:45.544 --> 00:12:47.165 can you draw a bit of white space between the three? 226 00:12:48.065 --> 00:12:48.185 Yeah, 227 00:12:48.186 --> 00:12:52.948 perfectionism is not a unidimensional trait as most people conceive of it. 228 00:12:52.968 --> 00:12:53.648 They think, 229 00:12:53.649 --> 00:12:53.728 oh, 230 00:12:53.729 --> 00:12:54.709 it's just high standards. 231 00:12:55.229 --> 00:13:17.465 as you know extreme conscientious actually perfection is way more than those things it's uh it is high standards and we do have a term for for excessive standards called self-oriented perfectionism which comes from within but when you study perfectionism and you talk to a perfectionist you see time and time again they'll tell you perfectionism doesn't just come from inside but it also affects felt from the outside too so they 232 00:13:18.049 --> 00:13:20.410 They feel that other people expect them to be perfect. 233 00:13:20.411 --> 00:13:22.070 So not only do they expect themselves to be perfect, 234 00:13:22.090 --> 00:13:23.310 but if I expect myself to be perfect, 235 00:13:23.311 --> 00:13:24.971 then other people expect me to be perfect too, 236 00:13:25.011 --> 00:13:25.231 right? 237 00:13:25.232 --> 00:13:27.131 So this is called socially prescribed perfectionism. 238 00:13:27.512 --> 00:13:31.353 And then there's a third type of perfectionism you see in the clinic and in the field, 239 00:13:31.393 --> 00:13:32.773 and that's other kinds of perfectionism, 240 00:13:32.813 --> 00:13:35.414 which is perfectionist standards turned outward onto other people. 241 00:13:35.974 --> 00:13:41.015 So if I expect myself to be perfect and I'm pulling myself over hot coals to achieve excessive standards, 242 00:13:41.016 --> 00:13:41.155 well, 243 00:13:41.156 --> 00:13:43.196 it's only fair that you do that as well, 244 00:13:43.336 --> 00:13:43.536 right? 245 00:13:43.596 --> 00:13:45.757 Like that just seems justified, 246 00:13:45.837 --> 00:13:46.077 right? 247 00:13:46.137 --> 00:13:47.197 So there's this... 248 00:13:47.661 --> 00:13:52.385 projection of perfection outwards onto other people that occurs at the same time as high standards, 249 00:13:52.485 --> 00:13:55.387 at the same time as high social perceptions. 250 00:13:55.827 --> 00:13:56.728 So these three elements, 251 00:13:56.808 --> 00:13:57.108 self, 252 00:13:57.248 --> 00:13:57.588 social, 253 00:13:57.608 --> 00:13:58.029 and other, 254 00:13:58.269 --> 00:14:02.472 are what we understand to be a multi-dimensional perspective of perfectionism. 255 00:14:02.492 --> 00:14:04.974 And you can have different levels of each one. 256 00:14:05.034 --> 00:14:06.055 Some people can hire themselves, 257 00:14:06.075 --> 00:14:06.995 some people can hire social, 258 00:14:07.035 --> 00:14:08.036 and all the rest of it. 259 00:14:08.037 --> 00:14:08.616 But nevertheless, 260 00:14:09.217 --> 00:14:10.138 that's how we measure it. 261 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:14.721 And you argue that perfectionism is not just a personality trait. 262 00:14:15.081 --> 00:14:15.702 as you were mentioning, 263 00:14:15.722 --> 00:14:19.004 but it's really a societal issue that we need to face. 264 00:14:19.005 --> 00:14:25.810 Can you elaborate a little bit on that distinction and then why that's so important for us to actually face this and discuss it? 265 00:14:26.651 --> 00:14:26.771 Yeah, 266 00:14:26.772 --> 00:14:29.033 I'd describe perfectionism as a characteristic. 267 00:14:29.173 --> 00:14:35.778 So we have temperaments and dispositions that are more or less hardwired and about 268 00:14:36.139 --> 00:14:40.142 50% of our personality traits are inherited. 269 00:14:40.202 --> 00:14:42.244 So a lot of how we turn out is genetic. 270 00:14:42.724 --> 00:14:43.565 And perfectionism is 271 00:14:44.629 --> 00:14:45.830 Not too dissimilar, 272 00:14:45.890 --> 00:14:46.910 about 30-40% 273 00:14:46.930 --> 00:14:48.351 of perfectionism is inherited, 274 00:14:48.391 --> 00:14:50.172 but the rest is socially acquired. 275 00:14:50.852 --> 00:14:53.393 And when we're talking about socially acquired, 276 00:14:53.453 --> 00:14:57.335 what we're really talking about is an adaptation to the world around us. 277 00:14:57.675 --> 00:15:00.497 How we calibrate our behaviours, 278 00:15:00.498 --> 00:15:02.157 the way we speak to other people, 279 00:15:02.278 --> 00:15:04.739 the way we present ourselves online and in person, 280 00:15:05.219 --> 00:15:09.601 to conform to certain societal expectations and standards in a world that... 281 00:15:10.181 --> 00:15:30.507 is expecting high standards that wants you to present your best put your best foot forward in a world where social media has so many glowing glittering images of perfection and where schools college and and all the rest that you're expected to continually excel well i think perfectionism is really the cultural adaptation to those 282 00:15:30.547 --> 00:15:34.889 excessive standards and i think what we're seeing in those rising levels that i talked about earlier is a 283 00:15:35.625 --> 00:15:41.509 as a direct result of young people in particular responding to excessive pressure with more perfectionistic tendencies. 284 00:15:43.170 --> 00:15:43.510 I think, 285 00:15:43.611 --> 00:15:43.971 Thomas, 286 00:15:44.151 --> 00:15:50.815 we have now a clear idea about your global perspective, 287 00:15:50.855 --> 00:15:57.380 but we would like to go and to dive deeper into the details of your book. 288 00:15:58.521 --> 00:15:58.801 First, 289 00:15:58.841 --> 00:16:04.745 I think your research shows that perfectionism has increased significantly 290 00:16:05.065 --> 00:16:06.646 in recent decades? 291 00:16:07.427 --> 00:16:07.988 What are, 292 00:16:08.168 --> 00:16:08.988 according to you, 293 00:16:09.189 --> 00:16:14.053 the main societal forces driving this trend? 294 00:16:16.034 --> 00:16:16.155 Well, 295 00:16:16.175 --> 00:16:16.435 I think, 296 00:16:17.676 --> 00:16:18.517 first and foremost, 297 00:16:18.937 --> 00:16:24.281 one of the things I focused on in the book is socially prescribed perfectionism because that's what's increasing most deeply. 298 00:16:25.022 --> 00:16:26.023 But if I may, 299 00:16:26.083 --> 00:16:30.947 I will start with self-oriented because self-oriented perfection isn't rising as quickly, 300 00:16:31.047 --> 00:16:32.949 but when you look at the average... 301 00:16:33.393 --> 00:16:48.622 ratings that young people give to measures of self-oriented perfectionism remember self-oriented perfection is high and excessive standards for oneself they start really high like around about five and a one to seven scale that's a really high place to start and it's been like that for many many decades so 302 00:16:48.623 --> 00:17:01.549 i think in the in the west in particular um we have had a lot of self-oriented perfectionism um already and that's not necessarily a bad thing right if you have self-oriented perfectionism without socially prescribed perfectionism 303 00:17:02.621 --> 00:17:05.663 And then there's the reasonably healthy, 304 00:17:05.803 --> 00:17:09.425 well I would be hesitant to say healthy because there are issues that are going to perfection, 305 00:17:09.565 --> 00:17:17.190 but nevertheless that can carry you quite far and if you live in a society that is accommodative of those high standards, 306 00:17:17.290 --> 00:17:17.410 i.e. 307 00:17:17.450 --> 00:17:19.471 that you get rewarded for the effort that you put in, 308 00:17:19.511 --> 00:17:22.172 as was the case decades ago, 309 00:17:22.253 --> 00:17:24.974 still is sort of the case today, 310 00:17:25.134 --> 00:17:28.056 there's been a bit of a stagnation in terms of social mobility. 311 00:17:28.576 --> 00:17:29.937 but nevertheless if you combine a 312 00:17:30.357 --> 00:17:33.900 an accommodative society and economy with high levels of self-awareness and perfectionism, 313 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:36.341 there's an argument that that's a very good mix. 314 00:17:37.562 --> 00:17:46.788 But what we're seeing more recently is high levels of self-awareness and perfectionism combined with high and rising levels of socially prescribed perfectionism. 315 00:17:47.109 --> 00:17:52.572 And that's a real problem because what you have there is high self-standards in combination with a lot of concern. 316 00:17:52.692 --> 00:17:53.793 Concern about how we're looking, 317 00:17:53.813 --> 00:17:55.274 concern about how we're appearing, 318 00:17:56.195 --> 00:17:59.317 a lot of worry and anxiety and fears of failure. 319 00:17:59.537 --> 00:18:15.626 a lot of indecisiveness about whether we're doing things correctly and and as a consequence a lot of allied mental health difficulties anxiety depression ruminative thought patterns compulsive tendencies and all the rest of it which are linked to those perfectionistic concerns and 320 00:18:15.627 --> 00:18:27.593 i think we're seeing those rising expectations because simply put uh young people now come into a growing up into a completely different world social media is almost certainly 321 00:18:28.077 --> 00:18:56.725 a contributor to those high and raising social expectations i don't think there's any doubt about that but social media is an advertising platform in its essence and we've had these pressures in our lives um you know for many many decades i think what's different about social media is it's put us put it there 24 7 we can't escape it and it's we're the content creators right so we're the we're the people that create that aura of discontent into which those targeted advertisers thrive so it's kind of a perfect advertising concoction if you could ever think one 322 00:18:57.425 --> 00:19:08.328 very very powerful tool and so i do think social media is the role but you know look you know schools have become more competitive we know that college admission has become much more competitive we know that i mean think 323 00:19:08.888 --> 00:19:26.173 14 of applicants uh it's ivy league a decade ago now it's under seven percent so that's a huge drop in the um admission to elite college which obviously young people see and their parents see and they pass on that expectation and pressure to do one in school and college through. 324 00:19:26.373 --> 00:19:27.434 high levels of expectation, 325 00:19:27.494 --> 00:19:28.114 more surveillance, 326 00:19:28.154 --> 00:19:28.595 monitoring, 327 00:19:28.615 --> 00:19:29.215 and all the rest of it. 328 00:19:29.855 --> 00:19:32.657 So there are many different factors, 329 00:19:32.717 --> 00:19:38.802 many different reasons that I think we're seeing high levels of pressure and a lot more perceptions of social pressure in particular rising. 330 00:19:39.962 --> 00:19:45.046 And we're worried about that because it's that mix of high self-oriented and high socially prescribed, 331 00:19:45.086 --> 00:19:49.909 which has really problematic consequences in terms of the mental health of young people. 332 00:19:50.450 --> 00:19:54.853 How do neoliberal values self- 333 00:19:55.113 --> 00:19:56.175 optimization, 334 00:19:56.375 --> 00:19:57.356 meritocracy, 335 00:19:57.717 --> 00:19:59.199 personal responsibility, 336 00:19:59.800 --> 00:20:01.422 fuel perfectionism. 337 00:20:03.466 --> 00:20:06.210 The values of optimization and... 338 00:20:07.690 --> 00:20:12.132 And maximization is very important to the neoliberal world, 339 00:20:12.212 --> 00:20:17.994 particularly when it comes to efficiency. 340 00:20:21.115 --> 00:20:30.279 If you could think about the most efficient way for people in society to grow economies in the fastest possible way and shortest possible time, 341 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:33.500 it would be for them themselves to do the pushing. 342 00:20:33.501 --> 00:20:37.202 it would be for them themselves to be almost the um 343 00:20:38.306 --> 00:20:54.702 uh cracking the whip on themselves right they wouldn't need an organization or a firm to do it for them like perhaps was the case in the past that actually they they embody that almost neurotic sense of striving to do more to consume more to uh to work more right and i 344 00:20:54.722 --> 00:21:03.630 kind of we can leave them alone to do that because they've taken on and adopted that that value system and i think what we're seeing young people who in the past 345 00:21:03.770 --> 00:21:18.794 who were tyrannized by what karen horny called the tyranny of should like you should behave in a certain way you should look a certain way you should work you should work in a certain way you should parent in a certain way we have today a different tyranny and maybe a tyranny of could right that you could be um 346 00:21:19.274 --> 00:21:31.198 an influencer you could be a billionaire you you could own or be the ceo of the company like these are things that are possible because the options and opportunities are limitless and whilst that freedom and that um 347 00:21:31.678 --> 00:21:33.319 And that sense of possibility, 348 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:34.419 on the one hand, 349 00:21:34.420 --> 00:21:37.220 is a very positive thing because we are free to strive. 350 00:21:37.740 --> 00:21:38.400 On the other hand, 351 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:40.041 it can be extremely, 352 00:21:40.541 --> 00:21:42.861 extremely crushing too, 353 00:21:43.002 --> 00:21:45.422 because there is no end point. 354 00:21:45.662 --> 00:21:53.805 There is no point at which we feel like we can ever be content because that continual wheel of growth keeps us in a place of scarcity, 355 00:21:53.845 --> 00:21:54.645 in a place of lack, 356 00:21:54.646 --> 00:21:55.705 in a place of deficit. 357 00:21:56.286 --> 00:21:56.506 and 358 00:21:58.122 --> 00:21:59.943 And the more we run, 359 00:22:00.123 --> 00:22:01.424 work and strive, 360 00:22:02.304 --> 00:22:03.545 the more exhausted we become, 361 00:22:03.546 --> 00:22:04.585 the more burned out we become, 362 00:22:04.586 --> 00:22:05.605 the more anxious we become. 363 00:22:05.606 --> 00:22:06.766 And even if we make progress, 364 00:22:06.786 --> 00:22:08.667 it's not enough because there's always something more. 365 00:22:08.668 --> 00:22:10.128 It's like trying to chase the horizon. 366 00:22:10.148 --> 00:22:10.788 The closer you get, 367 00:22:10.789 --> 00:22:13.769 the further it moves from our reach. 368 00:22:13.789 --> 00:22:17.671 So I think imbuing these values of neoliberalism, 369 00:22:18.952 --> 00:22:19.852 on the one hand, 370 00:22:20.072 --> 00:22:20.432 as I say, 371 00:22:20.532 --> 00:22:22.433 probably spurs a lot of economic growth, 372 00:22:22.453 --> 00:22:23.954 which I suppose is good for society. 373 00:22:24.386 --> 00:22:25.107 But on the other hand, 374 00:22:25.108 --> 00:22:26.067 at an individual level, 375 00:22:26.068 --> 00:22:26.728 at a personal level, 376 00:22:26.729 --> 00:22:30.030 it creates a lot of perfectionism and with it mental health difficulties. 377 00:22:31.911 --> 00:22:32.251 Thomas, 378 00:22:32.291 --> 00:22:37.395 we have already spoken about the effect of social media. 379 00:22:37.895 --> 00:22:41.978 I would like to ask you about the education system, 380 00:22:42.578 --> 00:22:50.404 which plays a key role in shaping young people's attitude towards success and failure. 381 00:22:50.824 --> 00:22:53.986 Could you explain this role and talk about it? 382 00:22:54.246 --> 00:22:56.627 education system and perfectionism. 383 00:22:58.107 --> 00:22:58.687 Yeah, 384 00:22:58.707 --> 00:23:05.669 the education system as it's currently constructed is really a sorting or a clearinghouse, 385 00:23:05.729 --> 00:23:05.889 right? 386 00:23:05.949 --> 00:23:06.930 Like you're sifting, 387 00:23:06.950 --> 00:23:07.490 you're ranking, 388 00:23:07.510 --> 00:23:14.632 you're sorting kids into ranked classes so that you can prepare them for the ultimate goal, 389 00:23:14.672 --> 00:23:17.433 which is to reach college education, 390 00:23:17.613 --> 00:23:17.993 right? 391 00:23:18.093 --> 00:23:19.713 And particularly in the US, 392 00:23:20.514 --> 00:23:20.754 you know, 393 00:23:20.755 --> 00:23:21.254 that's done... 394 00:23:21.770 --> 00:23:24.691 That shift in sorting ranking is done through standardized testing. 395 00:23:24.711 --> 00:23:25.791 It's also the case in the UK. 396 00:23:26.991 --> 00:23:27.151 And, 397 00:23:27.152 --> 00:23:27.332 you know, 398 00:23:27.372 --> 00:23:37.394 kids are exposed to excessive amounts of standardized testing from a very young age to make sure that they're allocated in the correct classes so that they're charred through to the, 399 00:23:37.395 --> 00:23:37.574 you know, 400 00:23:37.654 --> 00:23:45.576 to the correct teachers and all the rest of it so that they're entered into the right exams and so they can maximize their chance of getting to a good college. 401 00:23:45.577 --> 00:23:49.618 And this is fine. 402 00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:50.158 It's efficient. 403 00:23:50.518 --> 00:23:50.998 with bah 404 00:23:51.394 --> 00:23:52.515 We were talking about E-Levels, 405 00:23:52.535 --> 00:23:54.136 it's a very efficient way to do things. 406 00:23:54.156 --> 00:23:55.436 If you can measure and rank, 407 00:23:55.516 --> 00:23:59.098 you've got the most efficient system to get kids in, 408 00:23:59.239 --> 00:24:04.422 to allocate kids into the correct colleges. 409 00:24:04.862 --> 00:24:06.683 But it does have a cost, 410 00:24:06.684 --> 00:24:06.803 right, 411 00:24:06.804 --> 00:24:07.884 as an individual cost. 412 00:24:07.885 --> 00:24:15.348 An individual cost is that young people come to define themselves based on how they're performing and where they're ranking relative to other kids. 413 00:24:15.408 --> 00:24:18.730 And so exam results become a massive part of their self-esteem. 414 00:24:19.170 --> 00:24:21.652 They learn very quickly that when they've done well, 415 00:24:22.113 --> 00:24:23.834 that they're worth something in the world, 416 00:24:23.854 --> 00:24:27.818 that people give them attention and appreciation and validation. 417 00:24:27.878 --> 00:24:29.339 But when they haven't done so well, 418 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:32.121 those things are withheld or suddenly deferred. 419 00:24:33.743 --> 00:24:39.528 And that teaches them that they need to keep excelling, 420 00:24:39.548 --> 00:24:42.230 that they need to keep working as hard as they possibly can. 421 00:24:42.270 --> 00:24:46.033 And even an objectively high achievement isn't enough because they have to keep going. 422 00:24:46.053 --> 00:24:46.774 They have to keep. 423 00:24:47.174 --> 00:25:08.310 for the next exam and the next exam and the next exam and so this inculcates in in young people i think anyway a sense of dependency on their achievement and how do we guarantee that we achieve well we work them to the maximum and we try to be perfect that's just a natural response and adaptation to the very pressurizing mind 424 00:25:09.814 --> 00:25:10.034 Thomas, 425 00:25:10.194 --> 00:25:13.675 I'd like to talk a little bit about the consequences of that perfectionism. 426 00:25:13.735 --> 00:25:15.035 You've touched on this a bit, 427 00:25:15.115 --> 00:25:19.737 but you highlight a strong link in the book between perfectionism and mental health issues, 428 00:25:20.057 --> 00:25:21.117 specifically anxiety, 429 00:25:21.257 --> 00:25:21.717 depression, 430 00:25:21.897 --> 00:25:23.218 even suicidal ideation. 431 00:25:23.678 --> 00:25:25.638 Can you explain this link a little bit? 432 00:25:26.979 --> 00:25:27.099 Yeah, 433 00:25:27.100 --> 00:25:33.480 so perfectionism is what's called a trans-diagnostic risk factor for a lot of mental health difficulties. 434 00:25:34.001 --> 00:25:38.762 And the reason it's a trans-diagnostic risk factor is because it has a couple of built-in vulnerabilities. 435 00:25:39.318 --> 00:25:42.019 They make it very distinctive as a personality characteristic. 436 00:25:42.940 --> 00:25:45.421 The first building vulnerability is vulnerability to stress. 437 00:25:45.501 --> 00:25:52.924 So if your whole self-esteem is dependent on how you look and the perfect facade that you're trying to project into the world, 438 00:25:53.364 --> 00:25:56.926 then anything that shatters that has a shattering impact, 439 00:25:57.026 --> 00:25:58.866 not just on what you've done, 440 00:25:58.906 --> 00:26:00.687 but also who you are as a person. 441 00:26:01.107 --> 00:26:06.850 You've revealed the impervious self that you're trying to hide and you are excessively self-critical. 442 00:26:08.230 --> 00:26:14.373 and extremely find and ruminate and brood over those mistakes, 443 00:26:14.413 --> 00:26:16.514 failures and setbacks intensely. 444 00:26:17.934 --> 00:26:19.335 And we see that time and time again in love, 445 00:26:19.336 --> 00:26:19.615 by the way. 446 00:26:19.616 --> 00:26:22.296 We put perfectionists in stressful situations, 447 00:26:22.656 --> 00:26:24.957 particularly when they fail publicly. 448 00:26:25.958 --> 00:26:28.519 The emotional responses are very pronounced, 449 00:26:28.539 --> 00:26:30.119 so very high levels of shame, 450 00:26:30.179 --> 00:26:30.900 high levels of guilt, 451 00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:32.100 high levels of embarrassment. 452 00:26:32.540 --> 00:26:33.561 Their self-esteem plummets, 453 00:26:33.601 --> 00:26:34.501 as does their pride. 454 00:26:35.302 --> 00:26:36.182 and 455 00:26:36.542 --> 00:26:38.604 And so that stress vulnerability, 456 00:26:38.664 --> 00:26:42.007 that stress reactivity is one of the reasons why, 457 00:26:42.487 --> 00:26:42.727 you know, 458 00:26:42.807 --> 00:26:48.172 over time you see a lot of mental health problems aren't just linked to anxiety or obsessive tendencies, 459 00:26:48.232 --> 00:26:49.393 but low mood, 460 00:26:49.453 --> 00:26:50.654 depression and, 461 00:26:50.694 --> 00:26:50.934 you know, 462 00:26:51.195 --> 00:26:52.476 and worse in some cases. 463 00:26:52.856 --> 00:26:59.962 But there's also another reason why perfectionism is linked to mental health difficulties and why it's linked to a whole host of them rather than just one or two. 464 00:27:00.503 --> 00:27:03.145 And that's because perfectionists move themselves away from other people. 465 00:27:03.146 --> 00:27:04.346 We don't talk about this. 466 00:27:04.898 --> 00:27:05.899 part of perfectionism enough, 467 00:27:05.919 --> 00:27:06.339 I don't think, 468 00:27:06.340 --> 00:27:07.700 and I didn't touch on it enough in the book. 469 00:27:07.701 --> 00:27:08.480 I wish I had. 470 00:27:09.061 --> 00:27:19.088 But one of the things that you see a lot in the literature is that perfectionists find it incredibly difficult to connect with other people because there's an inauthenticity about their interactions. 471 00:27:19.108 --> 00:27:21.049 So they're constantly putting on a facade. 472 00:27:21.309 --> 00:27:24.071 They're calibrating what they say and how they behave in the presence of others. 473 00:27:24.471 --> 00:27:28.754 And that is in no way conducive to warm and reciprocal social relations. 474 00:27:28.774 --> 00:27:34.178 And so the more that they find themselves rejected by other people because they are unable to be vulnerable 475 00:27:34.478 --> 00:27:35.859 the more they move themselves away. 476 00:27:35.899 --> 00:27:37.321 They feel that people don't understand them. 477 00:27:37.322 --> 00:27:40.043 They isolate themselves and they feel a lot of loneliness. 478 00:27:40.063 --> 00:27:47.169 And that loneliness and alienation is also linked to a lot of very difficult mental health consequences. 479 00:27:47.970 --> 00:27:51.253 And so that's one of the reasons why I wanted to write the book, 480 00:27:51.273 --> 00:27:55.056 to really sort of raise the alarm that this isn't something that we can just try and, 481 00:27:55.057 --> 00:27:55.236 you know, 482 00:27:56.077 --> 00:27:59.480 manage around the edges and sand away the hard edges. 483 00:28:00.061 --> 00:28:00.541 That actually, 484 00:28:00.542 --> 00:28:00.741 you know, 485 00:28:00.781 --> 00:28:01.342 there's a really... 486 00:28:01.602 --> 00:28:10.450 there's really problematic mental health consequences that come from living life under the influence of tagging. 487 00:28:12.291 --> 00:28:13.933 You spoke about this a little bit at the beginning, 488 00:28:13.993 --> 00:28:14.233 Thomas, 489 00:28:14.253 --> 00:28:20.938 but there's probably a kind of common belief and maybe even a celebrated belief that perfectionism drives excellence. 490 00:28:21.699 --> 00:28:25.042 But your research suggests it can actually lead to procrastination, 491 00:28:25.522 --> 00:28:26.443 burnout and worse. 492 00:28:26.964 --> 00:28:27.944 Why does that happen? 493 00:28:28.165 --> 00:28:29.626 And can both things be true? 494 00:28:30.858 --> 00:28:30.978 Well, 495 00:28:30.979 --> 00:28:32.619 it happens for two reasons. 496 00:28:32.979 --> 00:28:37.241 And one's linked to the stress reactivity that I talked about just a moment ago. 497 00:28:38.822 --> 00:28:39.723 But perfectionists, 498 00:28:40.163 --> 00:28:40.583 you know, 499 00:28:40.803 --> 00:28:42.684 they do work really hard. 500 00:28:43.145 --> 00:28:43.685 Of course they do. 501 00:28:44.085 --> 00:28:47.747 But the moment they hit challenge is when you start to find out a lot about them. 502 00:28:47.847 --> 00:28:50.829 Because if they find those motives difficult, 503 00:28:51.089 --> 00:28:52.490 they've experienced a lot of guilt, 504 00:28:52.610 --> 00:28:53.650 embarrassment and shame, 505 00:28:54.211 --> 00:28:59.433 then they're going to be reluctant to put themselves in a position where they're going to feel those things again because those emotions are so intense. 506 00:28:59.814 --> 00:29:00.314 So when we... 507 00:29:01.126 --> 00:29:04.889 Another thing we do in the lab is when we put people under stressful and challenging situations, 508 00:29:04.929 --> 00:29:06.830 maybe we tell them that they failed at a task. 509 00:29:07.171 --> 00:29:07.991 Often we use sport, 510 00:29:08.071 --> 00:29:09.352 which goes back to my school background, 511 00:29:09.353 --> 00:29:12.995 because it's a really good microcosm of the competitive world. 512 00:29:12.996 --> 00:29:14.796 If we give people a task and say, 513 00:29:14.856 --> 00:29:18.519 you've got to cover a certain amount of distance in a certain amount of time on a bike, 514 00:29:18.520 --> 00:29:19.079 for instance, 515 00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:21.461 and you should be able to do that based on your fitness comfortably, 516 00:29:21.961 --> 00:29:22.642 and away you go. 517 00:29:24.523 --> 00:29:25.804 We'll do something a little bit naughty, 518 00:29:25.864 --> 00:29:27.325 like we'll tell them they didn't meet the goal. 519 00:29:27.806 --> 00:29:28.086 And then 520 00:29:28.346 --> 00:29:30.089 we'll give another opportunity to try again. 521 00:29:30.109 --> 00:29:31.552 And one of the things we're interested in is, 522 00:29:31.812 --> 00:29:34.137 is not just their emotional responses that are valid, 523 00:29:34.138 --> 00:29:35.379 but also the behavioral response. 524 00:29:35.459 --> 00:29:37.402 Like what do they do on our second attempt? 525 00:29:37.943 --> 00:29:38.725 And what you see. 526 00:29:39.664 --> 00:29:41.565 across many laboratory experiments, 527 00:29:41.625 --> 00:29:42.246 some in our labs, 528 00:29:42.266 --> 00:29:42.946 some in other labs, 529 00:29:43.207 --> 00:29:47.169 is that when you tell a perfectionist they've failed and ask them to try again, 530 00:29:47.289 --> 00:29:49.771 their effort on the second attempt drops off a cliff. 531 00:29:50.111 --> 00:29:54.394 Like they just stop trying because they put everything of themselves at that first effort. 532 00:29:54.414 --> 00:29:55.715 They didn't achieve it. 533 00:29:56.055 --> 00:29:57.856 They feel a lot of embarrassment and shame. 534 00:29:57.896 --> 00:30:01.959 And so in order to avoid those motions the second time round, 535 00:30:02.219 --> 00:30:03.520 they just pull themselves away, 536 00:30:03.800 --> 00:30:04.061 right? 537 00:30:04.561 --> 00:30:08.744 And so that that avoidance of difficult situations is characteristic of perfectionism 538 00:30:09.044 --> 00:30:11.406 You also see it in procrastinating behaviors as well. 539 00:30:11.466 --> 00:30:13.548 When you've got a big task coming up, 540 00:30:14.228 --> 00:30:18.392 the anxiety about completing it is so fierce that you just move yourself away. 541 00:30:18.393 --> 00:30:19.412 You don't feel those feelings, 542 00:30:19.413 --> 00:30:20.473 so you do other things, 543 00:30:20.493 --> 00:30:21.214 go on Netflix, 544 00:30:22.475 --> 00:30:24.677 have a social media scroll or whatever, 545 00:30:24.737 --> 00:30:27.279 just to get out of that difficult headspace. 546 00:30:27.699 --> 00:30:28.099 And of course, 547 00:30:28.620 --> 00:30:28.760 yes, 548 00:30:28.780 --> 00:30:30.661 it soothes the anxiety in the moment, 549 00:30:30.681 --> 00:30:32.583 but you're just damaged by the passage of time. 550 00:30:33.884 --> 00:30:35.625 And so avoidance, 551 00:30:35.685 --> 00:30:36.326 withdrawal, 552 00:30:36.366 --> 00:30:37.227 procrastination, 553 00:30:37.247 --> 00:30:38.688 that's one of the reasons why perfection is. 554 00:30:38.952 --> 00:31:02.874 find it difficult to perform and by the way meta analysis studies show this there is no relationship to perfectionism performance in the workplace none whatsoever zilch we can't find it it doesn't exist that's one of the reasons the other reason of course is the burnout you know confections work really really hard but they work too hard and they they're inefficient in their strobe right they put all their efforts towards things they can control like you know mundane stuff like emails or you you know, 555 00:31:02.914 --> 00:31:04.796 just writing up a report or... 556 00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:33.616 uh stuff that you know really doesn't require it high level diligence but they'll put it in anyway because they know they can control the outcomes and over time that intense effort into controllable stuff ends up into bad because they don't feel like they're making any progress rather than they feel that they're achieving much because they're not putting their effort into the stuff where the high value rewards are right the innovative stuff the risk-taking stuff like the other people are and so they're seeing themselves move away for the same amount of effort and you can imagine how demoralizing that is so that's why they burn out so 557 00:31:34.096 --> 00:31:34.476 Yeah, 558 00:31:34.477 --> 00:31:38.538 there's a paradoxical relation to perfectionism and performance that on the one hand, 559 00:31:38.558 --> 00:31:40.600 people think it's this thing that carries us forward. 560 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:42.301 But when you really dive into it, 561 00:31:42.302 --> 00:31:43.301 you see a canal at the back. 562 00:31:45.062 --> 00:31:47.583 We've talked a lot about perfectionism and performance, 563 00:31:48.064 --> 00:31:51.265 but you also talk about perfectionism and how it can affect relationships. 564 00:31:51.806 --> 00:32:00.270 Can you explain a little bit how it creates tension in both personal and professional interactions when there might be a perfectionist or two perfectionists facing off? 565 00:32:00.891 --> 00:32:01.011 Well, 566 00:32:01.031 --> 00:32:02.151 that's the nightmare scenario. 567 00:32:04.016 --> 00:32:28.307 I like you know we've all had the demanding boss in our lives we could and certainly you know I'm no different you recognize another range of perfectionists when you meet on the demands are excessive they're too high and they simply can't they can't be met and there's a lot of criticism of worry and rumination and fear of failure that kind of starts to build in organizations where you have leaders who are perfectionistic and 568 00:32:28.308 --> 00:32:29.708 by the way that's bad for the organisation. 569 00:32:29.972 --> 00:32:33.034 Because once you start to build that fear of failure within an organization, 570 00:32:33.094 --> 00:32:34.255 people stop taking risks, 571 00:32:34.256 --> 00:32:35.396 they stop communicating with each other, 572 00:32:35.397 --> 00:32:37.177 they stop opening up to mistakes. 573 00:32:37.537 --> 00:32:38.918 And once that starts to happen, 574 00:32:39.418 --> 00:32:39.619 then, 575 00:32:39.859 --> 00:32:40.099 you know, 576 00:32:40.139 --> 00:32:41.380 you could be two, 577 00:32:41.520 --> 00:32:41.760 three, 578 00:32:41.980 --> 00:32:46.963 four phases down the line of a product development before you realize something catastrophic or something serious, 579 00:32:47.044 --> 00:32:47.244 right? 580 00:32:47.245 --> 00:32:48.384 So it's really, 581 00:32:48.905 --> 00:32:49.125 you know, 582 00:32:49.126 --> 00:32:51.066 it's a really problematic thing for an organization. 583 00:32:52.307 --> 00:32:52.547 But yeah, 584 00:32:52.987 --> 00:32:54.408 you see this all the time. 585 00:32:55.169 --> 00:32:55.729 It creates, 586 00:32:55.929 --> 00:32:58.371 overall interpretation creates a lot of interpersonal hostility, 587 00:32:58.391 --> 00:32:59.432 a lot of conflict. 588 00:32:59.928 --> 00:33:16.400 um so in the working environment it's not a good thing in your personal life as well it's also not a good thing you know as i mentioned it can move us away from our people because there's inauthenticity and if we're too demanding on our partner that can lead lead to a lot of resentment over time and you know as much as you love someone there's 589 00:33:16.460 --> 00:33:27.468 only so much you can take when it when you're being expected over and over and over again to to to be this perfect person they hold up in their mind's eye which you know nobody is because nobody's perfect so it 590 00:33:28.128 --> 00:33:49.766 is a lot of evidence also in the relational sphere in the personal relationship that it can create a lot of difficulty in in personal relationships too so yeah look creates a lot of mental health difficulties doesn't make us before any better and can be really difficult in an interpersonal sphere so i'm i'm running out of stuff here like i don't know there's much positive like seven we'll get there we'll get there thomas 591 00:33:50.006 --> 00:33:57.032 a lot of our listeners are business leaders so i would like to give a dive in the topic. 592 00:33:57.033 --> 00:33:59.013 topic of work environment, 593 00:34:00.254 --> 00:34:06.799 I think many business leaders view perfectionism as a positive trait that drives high performance. 594 00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:15.145 What does the research actually say about the relationship between perfectionism and workplace productivity? 595 00:34:15.765 --> 00:34:15.885 No, 596 00:34:16.025 --> 00:34:17.386 no relationship at all. 597 00:34:17.827 --> 00:34:20.028 No relationship at all. 598 00:34:20.029 --> 00:34:21.569 And I think it is a big insight. 599 00:34:22.050 --> 00:34:23.090 It's a huge insight. 600 00:34:23.110 --> 00:34:25.272 There's a meta-analysis 601 00:34:25.392 --> 00:34:43.703 by den hararian colleagues which we've done a few years ago found no relationship we just updated that study by adding a few more um investigations and also broadening the uh conceptualization of perfectionism and again we find minimal trivial relationship to perfectionism and performance when you think about how much effort these people put in 602 00:34:44.379 --> 00:35:12.718 right it's just not a productive use of time to to to strive in a perfectionistic way there's a lot of redundancy there and and uh and a lot of inefficiency right because perfectionists they are able to keep up but if you think about how much indecisiveness there is in how much procrastination there is how much avoidance there is like it's a superhuman effort that they're able the remarkable thing is that they are able to keep up given all of that self-handicapping in that they engage in. 603 00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:14.019 And so, 604 00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:14.379 you know, 605 00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:15.820 a business leader, 606 00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:16.540 you know, 607 00:35:16.580 --> 00:35:20.481 whenever I talk to business leaders or do speeches on perfectionism, 608 00:35:20.541 --> 00:35:21.601 one of the things that I really, 609 00:35:21.761 --> 00:35:24.722 it pains to emphasize is that, 610 00:35:25.162 --> 00:35:25.402 you know, 611 00:35:25.522 --> 00:35:28.903 it might sound great to have these high and aspirational, 612 00:35:28.963 --> 00:35:30.063 really excessive goals. 613 00:35:30.064 --> 00:35:30.183 And, 614 00:35:30.184 --> 00:35:30.744 you know, 615 00:35:30.864 --> 00:35:31.584 we do perfection, 616 00:35:31.604 --> 00:35:32.284 we'll hit excellence, 617 00:35:32.285 --> 00:35:32.984 that kind of thing. 618 00:35:33.084 --> 00:35:33.264 Right. 619 00:35:33.304 --> 00:35:38.026 But the evidence is clear that it's just not a formula for success. 620 00:35:38.986 --> 00:35:43.387 You have highlighted that workplaces often reinforce... 621 00:35:43.947 --> 00:35:46.588 socially prescribed perfectionism. 622 00:35:48.048 --> 00:35:54.530 So in what ways does a perfectionist work culture contribute to burnout, 623 00:35:54.650 --> 00:35:55.910 reduce creativity, 624 00:35:56.410 --> 00:35:56.831 and even, 625 00:35:56.871 --> 00:35:57.751 you mentioned, 626 00:35:57.752 --> 00:35:58.091 I think, 627 00:35:58.211 --> 00:36:00.151 lower overall performance? 628 00:36:00.212 --> 00:36:00.972 There's loads of ways. 629 00:36:00.973 --> 00:36:02.452 And it starts with onboarding. 630 00:36:02.453 --> 00:36:05.713 You don't have to work to organizations and firms. 631 00:36:07.053 --> 00:36:08.254 And it's understandable. 632 00:36:08.255 --> 00:36:13.075 We want to sing about our achievements and our productivity. 633 00:36:13.355 --> 00:36:16.037 and what we expect of colleagues and all the rest of it, 634 00:36:16.038 --> 00:36:17.818 particularly in those elite professions. 635 00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:24.583 I do understand that actually there is a necessity to have a high level of diligence in many, 636 00:36:24.663 --> 00:36:25.624 many elite professions. 637 00:36:26.324 --> 00:36:31.608 But that's very different from setting the bar of expectation, 638 00:36:31.648 --> 00:36:35.591 which particularly for new employees can feel very intimidating. 639 00:36:35.711 --> 00:36:38.292 Even though you don't mean it to be intimidating, 640 00:36:38.312 --> 00:36:41.775 even though you want to show young people that they're entering. 641 00:36:42.495 --> 00:36:58.624 you know an established and high performing environment what it can look like to young people is oh my goodness i'm already sinking and i haven't even started so so you know you have to be really careful almost from the onboarding moment of onboarding that you are 642 00:36:59.345 --> 00:37:10.991 that you're emphasizing the values and core beliefs of an organization in such a way that meets new colleagues where they are in the process of their journey and learning development and that 643 00:37:11.191 --> 00:37:15.333 And then that goes all the way through the onboarding and training and meeting the team. 644 00:37:15.393 --> 00:37:21.616 And I think organizations have a responsibility for young people to give them a safe space, 645 00:37:21.656 --> 00:37:24.137 particularly when they're new, 646 00:37:24.217 --> 00:37:25.578 because they are going to make mistakes. 647 00:37:25.598 --> 00:37:27.078 They are going to be learning the ropes. 648 00:37:27.459 --> 00:37:28.699 So letting them know that's okay, 649 00:37:28.739 --> 00:37:29.480 that's expected, 650 00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:30.180 that's normal. 651 00:37:30.700 --> 00:37:33.141 Normalizing setbacks, 652 00:37:33.802 --> 00:37:35.683 normalizing your own mistakes within teams, 653 00:37:35.684 --> 00:37:36.663 I think is a really good practice. 654 00:37:36.823 --> 00:38:06.311 if you've made a mistake on a particular day i think it's important to talk about that explain it diagnose it why did it happen how do we make sure you know this growth is a good the growth mindset is a it's something that you know i do have some misgivings about but when we're at the beginning of our journeys i think it's so important that we do emphasize that we're you know this is a culture of growth and that failure is permissible and mistakes are permissible and we're open and we talk about them um because all these things you know they sound like they're they're 655 00:38:07.447 --> 00:38:29.174 they're letting people off with mediocrity right that they sound like you know oh we're just going to settle for good enough right but but um actually no they they they provide the space for people to think a bit laterally they provide the space for people to think a bit differently and take a few risks here and there and that's where the innovation is right that's where the breakthroughs are and so paradoxically safe 656 00:38:29.194 --> 00:38:32.495 environments allow for a little bit of latitude in terms of performance and mistakes. 657 00:38:32.935 --> 00:38:41.302 can actually be much more high-performing environments for people than those stifling perfectionistic virus where you can't put a foot wrong. 658 00:38:41.382 --> 00:38:41.542 Ed, 659 00:38:41.742 --> 00:38:45.265 now we would like to talk about advice, 660 00:38:45.325 --> 00:38:46.486 recommendations, 661 00:38:46.646 --> 00:38:47.587 solutions. 662 00:38:48.387 --> 00:38:48.548 Yeah, 663 00:38:49.148 --> 00:38:51.510 enough of the origins and the bad news, 664 00:38:51.610 --> 00:38:51.910 Thomas. 665 00:38:52.070 --> 00:38:55.313 Now we are going to put the pressure on you about some solutions. 666 00:38:55.493 --> 00:38:57.114 And I think where Eric and I probably, 667 00:38:57.235 --> 00:38:58.636 when we were reading the book, 668 00:38:59.156 --> 00:39:02.639 what made us particularly excited is that you call out 669 00:39:03.219 --> 00:39:06.580 A similar thing that we have to say to our clients when it comes to applying behavioral science. 670 00:39:07.160 --> 00:39:07.460 Yes, 671 00:39:07.620 --> 00:39:10.781 there is an opportunity for individual solutions and intervention. 672 00:39:11.461 --> 00:39:14.242 But if you want to get serious about tackling perfectionism, 673 00:39:14.402 --> 00:39:17.043 you also have to look at some systemic structural solutions. 674 00:39:18.083 --> 00:39:19.223 Can you talk a little bit about that? 675 00:39:21.484 --> 00:39:22.024 Ultimately, 676 00:39:22.464 --> 00:39:24.645 I would consider myself to be a humanist. 677 00:39:24.646 --> 00:39:26.105 I'm also a materialist. 678 00:39:26.145 --> 00:39:29.706 I think if we focus too much on the individual, 679 00:39:30.666 --> 00:39:32.707 we lose sight of the broader context. 680 00:39:32.947 --> 00:39:37.193 that has created the adaptations which have resulted in perfectionism. 681 00:39:38.253 --> 00:39:40.695 And one of the frustrations I have with self-help, 682 00:39:40.696 --> 00:39:40.915 you know, 683 00:39:40.916 --> 00:39:41.976 I didn't write a self-help, 684 00:39:41.977 --> 00:39:42.456 you know, 685 00:39:42.696 --> 00:39:46.559 this book isn't a fluffy blanket that people can get cozy in, 686 00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:46.899 right? 687 00:39:46.999 --> 00:39:51.102 And it was a book that I wanted to challenge people themselves, 688 00:39:51.122 --> 00:39:55.505 but I also wanted to challenge the way that they see society as well. 689 00:39:56.006 --> 00:40:02.190 I know that that was a challenge with the publisher because they didn't want me to go down that route. 690 00:40:02.191 --> 00:40:04.832 But I think for my intellectual integrity, 691 00:40:04.872 --> 00:40:05.813 it is important that 692 00:40:06.413 --> 00:40:09.834 If I'm finding trends here that are operating at a societal level, 693 00:40:09.914 --> 00:40:12.896 that's to say that the mean levels of perfectionism are changing for everyone, 694 00:40:13.396 --> 00:40:22.860 then that doesn't point to an individual problem or a failure or some kind of solution that's required within the self, 695 00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:25.221 but something that actually is much broader. 696 00:40:25.581 --> 00:40:26.321 And what, 697 00:40:27.061 --> 00:40:27.842 for me anyway, 698 00:40:28.802 --> 00:40:34.545 the heart or the root of this problem is a culture in a society that has become obsessed with 699 00:40:35.105 --> 00:40:35.465 Um... 700 00:40:36.025 --> 00:40:37.546 in efficiency, 701 00:40:38.026 --> 00:40:38.426 growth, 702 00:40:39.086 --> 00:40:39.727 productivity, 703 00:40:40.427 --> 00:40:48.110 and has lost sight of the human needs with regards to security, 704 00:40:48.870 --> 00:41:03.216 with regards to a sense of purpose and meaning in the work that we do beyond the kind of transactional or the instrumental outcomes like pay and status 705 00:41:03.217 --> 00:41:04.497 and prestige and all the rest of it. 706 00:41:04.917 --> 00:41:05.457 And so one of those... 707 00:41:05.713 --> 00:41:05.953 You know, 708 00:41:06.033 --> 00:41:18.579 one of the things I write in the book is that I think at some level we have to become a little bit more agnostic about growth because we're at a stage in our economic development where growth is not being met with higher living standards. 709 00:41:18.580 --> 00:41:18.979 In fact, 710 00:41:19.019 --> 00:41:19.899 it's quite the opposite. 711 00:41:19.919 --> 00:41:20.260 Actually, 712 00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:25.722 we're seeing the American economy power forward at this moment in time whilst life expectancy falls, 713 00:41:25.782 --> 00:41:27.063 education attainment falls, 714 00:41:27.103 --> 00:41:32.305 mental health outcomes are deteriorating and there's become a disconnect really between. 715 00:41:32.665 --> 00:41:55.918 how fast an economy is growing and the living standards and and felt experiences of its people and and i'm not saying i'm against economic growth not at all i think it's an extremely important vehicle for societal progress but if it's not serving the needs of people then it's just empty growth it's hollow growth and actually it's creating more stress more anxiety as we try to push ourselves even harder um 716 00:41:55.919 --> 00:42:02.281 whilst uh finding the you know the reality is uh is is uh communities Peace. 717 00:42:03.125 --> 00:42:24.763 but they're getting poorer right it's where i grew up in a poor community you know we've had a lot of economic growth in the uk but my community has become poorer year on year so um so the lived experience uh is also something i think we need to uh bear in mind not just like the big picture economics and so that's why i say in the book if we become a bit more agnostic about growth focus more on human well-being um 718 00:42:25.383 --> 00:42:32.189 that a lot of the anxiety and pressures that surround perfectionism would be ameliorated along the way i think basic income is probably the 719 00:42:32.309 --> 00:42:49.298 biggest one um and that's and that's going to be important i think in an age of ai when a lot of jobs are displaced and there's a transitional period that we're going to experience particularly as ai becomes more sophisticated i think i think things like basic income are going to become a necessity really um 720 00:42:49.338 --> 00:43:01.245 in order to manage that transition but i don't think that's a bad thing i think that's a good thing because um in an age of abundance um if we continue to hold people in the quicksand of scarcity. 721 00:43:01.793 --> 00:43:04.754 and make them work for their existence, 722 00:43:05.074 --> 00:43:06.794 then they're going to feel perfectionistic. 723 00:43:06.814 --> 00:43:09.775 They're going to feel like they must strive to do more. 724 00:43:09.776 --> 00:43:09.975 You know, 725 00:43:09.976 --> 00:43:11.856 that tyranny of could and should that I talked about. 726 00:43:12.256 --> 00:43:17.738 Whereas if we give people security to explore their passions and hone their skills in ways that are, 727 00:43:17.858 --> 00:43:18.098 you know, 728 00:43:18.538 --> 00:43:20.478 concordant with their skills and abilities, 729 00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:21.379 then that's, 730 00:43:21.499 --> 00:43:21.819 I think, 731 00:43:21.899 --> 00:43:25.860 going to free people to be a lot more innovative and take more risks, 732 00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:27.780 which ultimately is very good for economic growth. 733 00:43:27.781 --> 00:43:27.981 In fact, 734 00:43:28.021 --> 00:43:29.581 basic income is one of the key things that actually... 735 00:43:29.881 --> 00:43:46.486 unites left the right a lot of libertarians are very keen on basic income just as there are people who would describe themselves as socialists so i think i think basic income is a big one um i mean i describe all sorts of things that could be done in the book um and 736 00:43:46.487 --> 00:43:56.349 i don't want people to misunderstand that chapter this that was a utopia that i think will happen but more of the full experiment about what could happen in terms of perfectionism if 737 00:43:56.729 --> 00:44:16.260 society was organized in a slightly different way and will we need perfectionism to get by would we need perfectionism to survive in in in our jobs and so forth um and uh and so yeah that's that's why i wanted to finish on that on a more big picture because i think perfectionism is really a societal problem rather than in due joy i 738 00:44:16.261 --> 00:44:25.145 can concur this is not a cozy uh blanket of a read in fact as my partner saw me reading it as we prepared for the podcast he said about time 739 00:44:25.965 --> 00:44:27.287 That's what I'm saying when I'm reading this book. 740 00:44:28.550 --> 00:44:30.393 But you've kind of been talking on this topic, 741 00:44:30.473 --> 00:44:30.733 Thomas, 742 00:44:30.793 --> 00:44:31.074 about, 743 00:44:31.454 --> 00:44:31.695 you know, 744 00:44:31.915 --> 00:44:33.798 the importance of redefining success then. 745 00:44:33.858 --> 00:44:37.645 So what could or should a healthier definition of success look like? 746 00:44:38.749 --> 00:44:41.910 at the individual level or at the organizational or societal level? 747 00:44:42.930 --> 00:44:43.170 I mean, 748 00:44:43.991 --> 00:44:44.391 look, 749 00:44:44.931 --> 00:44:47.792 success is ultimately about progress, 750 00:44:47.832 --> 00:44:50.013 but progress doesn't have to be measured in units of GDP. 751 00:44:51.733 --> 00:44:53.554 Progress can be measured in all sorts of other units. 752 00:44:53.574 --> 00:44:55.554 It could be measured in how healthy a population is, 753 00:44:56.435 --> 00:44:56.675 you know, 754 00:44:56.695 --> 00:44:57.755 our life expectancy. 755 00:44:57.855 --> 00:45:03.437 It could be measured in levels of happiness or satisfaction or well-being. 756 00:45:03.438 --> 00:45:04.117 It could be measured... 757 00:45:04.397 --> 00:45:05.358 in all sorts of, 758 00:45:05.378 --> 00:45:05.618 you know, 759 00:45:05.678 --> 00:45:07.219 community markers around, 760 00:45:07.220 --> 00:45:07.400 you know, 761 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.021 how robust and resilient our community is. 762 00:45:09.141 --> 00:45:10.442 There's all sorts of, 763 00:45:10.562 --> 00:45:10.802 you know, 764 00:45:10.862 --> 00:45:18.969 measures that we could take in progress that have got nothing to do with material outcomes or how fast or how well we're growing or developing. 765 00:45:18.970 --> 00:45:21.951 They've got everything to do with what's important to us humans. 766 00:45:23.212 --> 00:45:23.393 And, 767 00:45:23.653 --> 00:45:23.913 you know, 768 00:45:23.914 --> 00:45:24.193 as I said, 769 00:45:24.213 --> 00:45:24.874 I'm a humanist, 770 00:45:24.894 --> 00:45:25.835 so I believe that, 771 00:45:25.915 --> 00:45:26.155 you know, 772 00:45:26.156 --> 00:45:29.277 we are intrinsically wired to love each other, 773 00:45:29.438 --> 00:45:32.160 to build social community and connection, 774 00:45:32.260 --> 00:45:33.421 to find purpose. 775 00:45:34.137 --> 00:45:41.083 and meaning and modern society is almost, 776 00:45:41.084 --> 00:45:50.991 it's extremely alienating of those needs or can be extremely alienating of those needs if all we're worried about is the transactional value of ourselves, 777 00:45:51.411 --> 00:45:53.173 how we project ourselves over other people, 778 00:45:53.174 --> 00:45:54.013 how much money we make, 779 00:45:54.053 --> 00:45:55.575 what our status is and all the rest of it. 780 00:45:56.976 --> 00:45:57.276 And so, 781 00:45:57.516 --> 00:45:57.737 you know, 782 00:45:57.738 --> 00:45:58.537 an individual level, 783 00:45:58.757 --> 00:46:01.800 I think we perform better when we do have a sense of meaning and purpose. 784 00:46:02.020 --> 00:46:02.661 That's a nuts 785 00:46:03.465 --> 00:46:14.833 And that's why I would encourage people to pursue their passions and do subjects and the areas of work that they have a lot of intrinsic motivation for. 786 00:46:14.873 --> 00:46:16.374 That's the same with organisations, 787 00:46:16.694 --> 00:46:16.935 you know, 788 00:46:17.135 --> 00:46:20.557 giving people purpose and meaning in the work as well as, 789 00:46:20.558 --> 00:46:20.757 you know, 790 00:46:20.797 --> 00:46:23.499 those material benefits are really important. 791 00:46:23.619 --> 00:46:24.580 Giving them the autonomy, 792 00:46:24.700 --> 00:46:25.961 showing that you trust them to, 793 00:46:27.322 --> 00:46:27.582 you know, 794 00:46:27.842 --> 00:46:29.463 perform their duties competently. 795 00:46:29.483 --> 00:46:29.704 You know, 796 00:46:29.724 --> 00:46:31.525 all these things are really important for. 797 00:46:31.745 --> 00:46:50.218 for a sense of happiness and well-being and then at a societal level as well as i said you know focusing more on human development indicators as opposed to economic development indicators i think is important and i believe that if you could do that you also get the economic benefits too because a healthier happier society is also more predictable so 798 00:46:50.418 --> 00:47:01.205 i agree with you thomas but some real high performers some of whom are really famous at the top of their industry you know titans of industry top of their game they're gonna fear or they're going to... 799 00:47:02.197 --> 00:47:29.993 combat you by saying letting go of some perfectionism is going to make them or their organization less successful or their team less winning what would you say to them well i would i mean i would say i would say to them uh well there's many ways you could tackle this like you can look at the data and you could say that perfectionism doesn't it isn't linked to success so what you're seeing in your own world is survivor bias right you're you're seeing the very top and the people at the very top of 800 00:47:30.013 --> 00:47:35.015 have gone through some selection process tell you they're perfectionistic that they have these excessively high goals or they work you know 801 00:47:35.555 --> 00:47:55.304 13 hours a day 14 hours a day and therefore that must be what made them successful when there are so many other factors right luck circumstance uh yeah the family background you know if you're a sports person genetics right so many factors that are important to success beyond that you know that those perfectionistic behaviors but that's the first work, 802 00:47:55.584 --> 00:47:56.345 you might tackle it. 803 00:47:57.385 --> 00:47:59.966 But whether that would hold any water for these individuals, 804 00:48:00.006 --> 00:48:00.447 I don't know. 805 00:48:00.527 --> 00:48:02.207 But that's probably one of the ways I'll tackle it. 806 00:48:02.548 --> 00:48:03.908 Another way I'll tackle it is that, 807 00:48:04.048 --> 00:48:06.489 why does it have to be that way? 808 00:48:06.750 --> 00:48:06.970 Like, 809 00:48:06.971 --> 00:48:08.150 if you go to the continent, 810 00:48:08.570 --> 00:48:08.811 right, 811 00:48:09.871 --> 00:48:11.372 and you look at the growth rates in Europe, 812 00:48:11.412 --> 00:48:13.033 they're way lower than the US. 813 00:48:13.753 --> 00:48:14.433 And people say, 814 00:48:14.493 --> 00:48:14.673 well, 815 00:48:14.693 --> 00:48:15.014 you know, 816 00:48:15.034 --> 00:48:16.054 there's something wrong with Europe, 817 00:48:16.055 --> 00:48:16.654 what they're doing, 818 00:48:16.655 --> 00:48:16.894 you know, 819 00:48:16.954 --> 00:48:17.395 they're lazy, 820 00:48:17.415 --> 00:48:17.595 yada, 821 00:48:17.635 --> 00:48:17.775 yada, 822 00:48:17.795 --> 00:48:17.955 yada. 823 00:48:17.995 --> 00:48:20.716 But maybe they just don't want to work themselves 30 hours a day. 824 00:48:20.816 --> 00:48:21.957 Maybe they don't. 825 00:48:22.417 --> 00:48:24.918 Maybe they value other things other than productivity. 826 00:48:24.998 --> 00:48:26.659 Maybe they value time in their communities. 827 00:48:26.739 --> 00:48:28.279 Maybe they value time with their families. 828 00:48:29.140 --> 00:48:37.883 Maybe they value giving their productive energies to things that are important for the broader society rather than just their employer. 829 00:48:38.904 --> 00:48:39.584 And my question is, 830 00:48:39.624 --> 00:48:40.324 what's wrong with that? 831 00:48:41.205 --> 00:48:42.085 Why is that a problem? 832 00:48:42.145 --> 00:48:51.549 Why is the European philosophy that perhaps sacrifices economic growth and productivity for more harmony in their broader lives? 833 00:48:51.909 --> 00:48:53.009 Why is that a bad thing? 834 00:48:53.070 --> 00:48:53.410 Why are we, 835 00:48:53.490 --> 00:48:53.830 because, 836 00:48:54.050 --> 00:48:55.390 and the reason why is because we see it in very, 837 00:48:55.711 --> 00:48:55.951 you know, 838 00:48:56.391 --> 00:48:57.731 simplistic terms around, 839 00:48:57.751 --> 00:48:57.992 you know, 840 00:48:58.052 --> 00:48:59.452 it's only about the economics. 841 00:48:59.932 --> 00:49:00.372 But actually, 842 00:49:00.412 --> 00:49:00.653 you know, 843 00:49:00.793 --> 00:49:02.793 being a human is much broader than just that. 844 00:49:03.174 --> 00:49:04.734 So I'd probably tackle it in those two ways. 845 00:49:04.735 --> 00:49:06.095 But whether that holds any water with them, 846 00:49:06.155 --> 00:49:06.555 I don't know, 847 00:49:06.556 --> 00:49:08.936 because I haven't interacted with these individuals and I'm not really sure. 848 00:49:08.937 --> 00:49:10.637 I'm not really sure 849 00:49:11.017 --> 00:49:12.017 I'll win the argument. 850 00:49:12.397 --> 00:49:13.218 They're not ready for you. 851 00:49:13.278 --> 00:49:13.978 They're not ready for you, 852 00:49:13.998 --> 00:49:14.278 Thomas. 853 00:49:15.839 --> 00:49:16.239 Thomas, 854 00:49:16.859 --> 00:49:17.760 unfortunately, 855 00:49:17.761 --> 00:49:18.420 and sadly, 856 00:49:18.520 --> 00:49:21.121 we are at the end of this conversation, 857 00:49:21.201 --> 00:49:21.341 but 858 00:49:22.102 --> 00:49:27.388 I would like to ask you three final questions. 859 00:49:27.928 --> 00:49:28.329 First, 860 00:49:29.090 --> 00:49:33.515 one piece of advice to someone struggling with perfectionism. 861 00:49:33.915 --> 00:49:35.537 How to help him? 862 00:49:37.940 --> 00:49:38.120 Wow. 863 00:49:38.632 --> 00:49:44.994 One piece of advice. 864 00:49:46.774 --> 00:49:49.275 I think I would say, 865 00:49:49.335 --> 00:49:52.156 there's a lot of specific advice behind this big piece of advice, 866 00:49:52.196 --> 00:49:56.177 but the main thing is to try as much as you can to let things go. 867 00:49:58.498 --> 00:50:06.360 The thing that's most inhibiting about perfectionism is it just doesn't let us move forward paradoxically for the reasons we talked about. 868 00:50:07.212 --> 00:50:10.094 And sometimes you just have to, 869 00:50:10.334 --> 00:50:13.396 you just have to recognize that it's never going to be perfect, 870 00:50:13.536 --> 00:50:15.258 that you cannot possibly make, 871 00:50:15.478 --> 00:50:15.718 you know, 872 00:50:15.818 --> 00:50:16.899 think your work perfect. 873 00:50:16.900 --> 00:50:18.140 You cannot make yourself perfect. 874 00:50:18.260 --> 00:50:19.340 Just an impossibility. 875 00:50:20.161 --> 00:50:21.982 And so black things go, 876 00:50:22.362 --> 00:50:25.064 like put your work out into the world, 877 00:50:25.204 --> 00:50:25.385 right? 878 00:50:25.525 --> 00:50:26.665 Do your presentation, 879 00:50:26.866 --> 00:50:28.727 go to your boss and ask for your promotion, 880 00:50:28.867 --> 00:50:29.948 put the report out there, 881 00:50:30.248 --> 00:50:31.569 write the book and publish it. 882 00:50:32.169 --> 00:50:32.389 Okay. 883 00:50:32.690 --> 00:50:33.510 At some levels, 884 00:50:33.570 --> 00:50:34.991 you just got to let yourself, 885 00:50:35.131 --> 00:50:36.112 give yourself the permission to. 886 00:50:36.352 --> 00:50:57.418 put something out there and know that it's going to be received badly or well or whatever or indifferently but just knowing that the mere act of moving forward the mere act of producing something that you think is going to help other people is the most important thing um and so that's probably the biggest piece of advice let 887 00:50:57.438 --> 00:51:04.900 it just get it out there you know don't be afraid feel the fear and do it anyway i think it's probably the best philosophy for perfection okay 888 00:51:05.160 --> 00:51:05.800 Thanks a lot. 889 00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:06.401 Second, 890 00:51:07.141 --> 00:51:08.021 last question, 891 00:51:08.041 --> 00:51:08.801 I would say. 892 00:51:11.042 --> 00:51:15.524 Do you see the perfectionist culture identifying, 893 00:51:16.104 --> 00:51:21.026 or do you think we are reaching a tipping point where change is possible? 894 00:51:21.267 --> 00:51:22.827 Give us some hope, 895 00:51:23.047 --> 00:51:23.547 please. 896 00:51:24.988 --> 00:51:26.369 I think there are some good signs. 897 00:51:27.649 --> 00:51:29.890 Young people in particular seem to have, 898 00:51:32.591 --> 00:51:34.612 I don't think we give them enough credit for... 899 00:51:35.116 --> 00:51:40.020 being aware of their environment and how society actually, 900 00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:40.740 you know, 901 00:51:40.820 --> 00:51:42.421 particularly when it comes to social media at this moment, 902 00:51:42.441 --> 00:51:44.343 there's a massive moral panic around social media. 903 00:51:44.363 --> 00:51:45.623 But I think when you speak to young people, 904 00:51:46.224 --> 00:51:49.226 they know all this stuff that older people are fretting about. 905 00:51:49.246 --> 00:51:52.468 They realize it's not the healthiest place for them to be. 906 00:51:53.089 --> 00:52:01.314 And they do have safeguards that they themselves impose on their engagement with social media to make sure that it doesn't run away with them. 907 00:52:02.115 --> 00:52:03.316 And by the way, 908 00:52:04.764 --> 00:52:09.308 There's a broader context to the anxiety crisis beyond just social media, 909 00:52:09.309 --> 00:52:10.469 but that's for another discussion. 910 00:52:12.130 --> 00:52:12.451 And so 911 00:52:12.851 --> 00:52:13.952 I think in young people, 912 00:52:14.312 --> 00:52:18.776 I see green shoes of hope because I think that they do get this deep down. 913 00:52:19.277 --> 00:52:27.143 And I think that they have a slightly different way of living or a slightly different expectation of the way of living that can look like laziness, 914 00:52:27.604 --> 00:52:32.048 that can look a little bit like they're a bit more aloof or whatever. 915 00:52:32.612 --> 00:52:33.152 But actually, 916 00:52:33.212 --> 00:52:39.896 I think maybe they're just taking back control of their lives and they're prioritizing areas that bring them fulfillment and joy. 917 00:52:39.936 --> 00:52:41.977 And I think if there's any green shoots of hope, 918 00:52:41.978 --> 00:52:47.360 it's probably in young people's attitudes towards work and consumption, 919 00:52:47.420 --> 00:52:48.921 which I think is slightly different to their parents. 920 00:52:51.303 --> 00:52:51.763 Last, 921 00:52:52.123 --> 00:52:52.563 Thomas, 922 00:52:52.884 --> 00:52:54.064 what's next for you? 923 00:52:54.344 --> 00:53:00.668 Are you working on any new research or project related to this topic or other topic? 924 00:53:01.576 --> 00:53:02.717 Yeah, 925 00:53:02.857 --> 00:53:08.481 so we've got a big study coming out that takes a broader look at perfectionism. 926 00:53:08.501 --> 00:53:13.705 And one of the things I was really interested in was what's happening to perfectionistic kinds of thinking, 927 00:53:13.745 --> 00:53:15.647 cognition among young people. 928 00:53:15.648 --> 00:53:18.869 And we're seeing a lot of concern over mistakes increase, 929 00:53:19.029 --> 00:53:20.530 just like social subscription. 930 00:53:20.531 --> 00:53:28.316 We're seeing a lot of indecisiveness and fear of failure increase among young people. 931 00:53:28.536 --> 00:53:46.111 doubts about their actions we're also seeing that increase so we've done a lot big you know 20 year cohort we're looking at these perfectionistic four places which are also on the rise among young people so we're building out a broader picture of uh the way in which young people think and feel and how it's changing over the years uh 932 00:53:46.112 --> 00:53:57.280 so that's the next big study that's coming through hopefully that'll be published soon i hope to write something uh in a few years time on this idea this concept of tyranny of could because i think that's a them. 933 00:53:57.500 --> 00:54:13.784 a very uh um uh fruitful area of uh psychological exploration in terms of you know uh young people's uh the way that they view the world and optimization and maximization and all that sort of stuff so probably 934 00:54:13.804 --> 00:54:26.148 do something there or maybe think about doing something there so but at this moment in time you know i'm i'm uh i've also got a young family so i'm trying to palette stuff as well um but that's that's for them up to the next period right and i so agree Ruthie Thomas, 935 00:54:26.149 --> 00:54:26.968 this idea of kind of 936 00:54:28.004 --> 00:54:31.131 The world tells you you could and be limitless, 937 00:54:31.291 --> 00:54:35.060 and of course we are limited animals. 938 00:54:36.084 --> 00:54:37.325 So thanks so much for joining us, 939 00:54:37.326 --> 00:54:37.625 Thomas, 940 00:54:38.466 --> 00:54:39.747 for being here on the Be Good podcast. 941 00:54:39.767 --> 00:54:41.668 Is there anything you'd like to leave our listeners with? 942 00:54:42.169 --> 00:54:46.552 A last piece of advice or where they can find out more about your work and where to find you and follow you? 943 00:54:48.013 --> 00:54:48.774 Last piece of advice. 944 00:54:49.554 --> 00:54:51.736 Always don't need to just play yourself to anyone. 945 00:54:51.737 --> 00:54:53.297 You are enough as you are. 946 00:54:54.258 --> 00:54:57.820 And that's a universal human truth. 947 00:54:58.901 --> 00:55:00.482 Where can you find stuff about me? 948 00:55:00.763 --> 00:55:01.723 I've got a website, 949 00:55:01.783 --> 00:55:02.524 thomascurran.com. 950 00:55:02.584 --> 00:55:03.264 begood.co.uk. 951 00:55:03.645 --> 00:55:05.205 So everything that I'm doing is on there. 952 00:55:05.206 --> 00:55:06.486 And if you want to reach out or contact, 953 00:55:06.506 --> 00:55:07.607 or if you do read the book, 954 00:55:08.547 --> 00:55:09.568 I'd love to hear from readers. 955 00:55:09.569 --> 00:55:10.588 So do reach out. 956 00:55:10.648 --> 00:55:15.411 I really like to find out how people receive the book. 957 00:55:15.491 --> 00:55:17.192 So don't be shy. 958 00:55:18.192 --> 00:55:18.573 Perfect. 959 00:55:19.193 --> 00:55:21.354 So that is it for this episode of Be Good. 960 00:55:21.534 --> 00:55:22.995 There is never enough time, 961 00:55:23.115 --> 00:55:25.116 but let us know what you thought about this episode. 962 00:55:25.636 --> 00:55:28.218 Find us on X at BDNUG Consulting. 963 00:55:28.678 --> 00:55:29.859 Until the next time, 964 00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:32.300 remember to be good and 965 00:55:32.652 --> 00:55:33.395 Be good to yourself. 966 00:55:33.696 --> 00:55:33.877 Thanks, 967 00:55:33.917 --> 00:55:34.158 Thomas. 968 00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:35.322 Be Good, 969 00:55:35.603 --> 00:55:37.812 a podcast by the BVA Nudge Unit.