WEBVTT

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So the leaf subanalysis is for me the plant is a mirror of the soil microbiology of the soil chemistry.

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What I find there is like a blood sample of the plant itself.

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Photosynthesis is really the motor of the regeneration and with the leaf subanalysis I have a tool for my crops.

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The leaves they can take up nutrients and those nutrients can be quite complex like enzyme,

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vitamin and amino acid

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And that's what we bring into liquid form directly onto the plant.

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So it's more precise,

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it's very fast,

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and we have the immediate effect.

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Welcome back to the Deep Seed podcast.

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This week,

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I am visiting regenerative farmer Adrian

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Ruby in Switzerland.

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In today's conversation,

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we'll focus on two main topics.

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Leaf sap analysis and compost tea.

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Before this conversation,

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my knowledge on these two topics was very...

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Very,

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very low.

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I mean,

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close to zero even.

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And therefore,

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I asked Adrian loads of questions.

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Some basic ones at first,

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like what is compost tea?

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Or what is the process of doing leaf sap analysis and why?

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But then I dug further and further with a lot of technical and scientific questions.

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It's an incredibly informative episode.

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Adrian is absolutely amazing at explaining complex concepts in a really clear manner.

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I personally just learned so much from this conversation and I'm sure that you will too.

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So stay with us for this one and listen until the end.

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I promise you won't regret it.

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This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital.

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I am your host Raphael and this is the Deep Seed Podcast.

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Hi Adrienne,

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how are you doing today?

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Yeah,

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thanks Raphael.

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I'm very fine and I'm looking forward to talk with you.

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For a little bit of context,

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maybe you could tell us where we are today?

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We are right now in Halterhus.

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It's a farm in Switzerland,

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in the canton of Lucerne.

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And we are kind of in the hills just before the Alps starts,

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a bit on 750 meters.

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It's a farm with 18 hectares and has cows.

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crops and some fruit trees and hazelnut trees it's a bit of a rainy day today so we decided to record inside and be comfortable right exactly yeah switzerland i mean i'm very lucky and blessed to have every year a lot of rain i think it's it's easier to farm in an environment where you have the rain then all

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the time struggle with looking for the water yeah okay yeah i bet and

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Maybe you could tell us a little bit about your personal journey and what led you to become so interested and so passionate about regenerative farming.

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I grew up on this farm.

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My father was keeping the farm and first I learned to become an electrician.

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But already there I was working for a farming company and we installed pig feeding systems.

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So it was farming related,

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hard to technical things.

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And after that,

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I started to travel.

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I also was in Australia on a dairy farm.

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I did milking and learned English there.

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But actually,

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I never fully had the passion in the farming.

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Farming was for me all the time too much with machines and be inside around animals.

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The milking was like two and a half hours a day and the pig feeding and taking care.

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Cleaning the building was all the time inside.

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and uh

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Somehow I never had the connection with nature,

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biology and farming so much.

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So

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I decided to maybe work more in developing aid.

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I saw the environment is essential for a quality good life.

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So the poor people,

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if they have at least the possibility to grow their own vegetables,

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to grow some fish,

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some chickens by themselves,

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they have at least the basics they need to have a...

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decent life but when i started my studies then as an environmental engineer i realized more and more we in the western part of the world have the same amount of problems our soils are depleted our

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biodiversity is fading away so

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I more and more got the desire to change something here,

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then go to the other side of the world and tell how things should be.

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And that's how my desire started again to take over my family farm and try to do the transition here to a system where I can produce food and in the same time promote biodiversity.

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Initially,

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when you took over the farm,

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the family farm here,

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it was mostly producing milk and it was pigs,

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right?

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Yes,

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exactly.

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But you completely changed that.

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Yeah,

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I still have cows,

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but I have now suckler cows or in German

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Mutterkühe.

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And the principle there is to not produce milk.

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We produce just the meat.

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I had the buildings.

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I have a lot of grassland,

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which is too steep for making crops.

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And all in all,

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to an organic system,

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the cow suits well because I also get valuable fertilizer of it.

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So I just changed not the animal,

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but the product I produce with it from milk to meat.

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I also transit to be organic certified and

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I planted the hazelnut orchard because I want to bring more valuable products onto the farm.

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And I stopped having the pigs because it was for me a bit the wrong thing to import a lot of food from somewhere out in Europe or even soybeans from Brazil.

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It doesn't make so much sense for me.

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I think animals have to be fed from their own farm or at least from the same region.

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So

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I stopped there but it also helped me to have more space in the buildings and have a bit time for other projects.

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So today,

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actually,

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we're not going to focus too much discussion on the farming operation that you've got here,

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but you're also very much involved in the science,

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the soil microbiology side of things,

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and a bit of what you call it,

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engineering?

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Yeah,

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exactly.

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But I didn't mention yet,

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yes,

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I not only have to farm,

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turning my studies,

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I started a startup called Edapro.

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it's a company which is focusing on producing products

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compost tea and all the equipment to it.

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So this is also a big part of my work.

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I can very well combine the farm and the work with EdaPro which is also farming related.

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I can use my infrastructure on the farm.

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I have as a small farm the time to do there some more things and also when I have a lot of work on the fields my customers have a lot of work on the fields.

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And they keep me in peace.

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And as soon as it's rainy,

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I'm sitting in the office,

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I get a lot of calls.

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So it really suits well to combine both.

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Right.

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So I really want to talk about this topic of compost tea,

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of brewing microbes and all of that.

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Because we hear a lot on the podcast that it's a tool that farmers use.

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But we never had the opportunity to really dig deeper into the conversation and the science behind it.

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So maybe you could first tell us.

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How your journey in sort of doing compost tea started and why?

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My journey started during my studies.

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A good friend of mine in the studies wanted to find a solution how he can treat his pot plants in the flat without any external fertilizer.

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So he had a lot of green clippings from the vegetable,

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from cooking and everything and he had his vermicomposter.

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and he used his vermicompost then to produce the compost tea and spray all his plants in the garden and in the garden and in the flat so his flat was more likely being a jungle than a living room and his

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plants grew very well so we decided to do more further research on this youtube do-it-yourself idea he picked up during his studies and that's how everything

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started to roll out.

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And we had one project,

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it was not fully farming related,

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it was a golf course.

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They had a problem with their putting greens,

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that the grass got sick.

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And they looked for organic solutions and we got there the opportunity to do a trial and it was very successful.

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The treatment with the composting on this grass had a very good effect,

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that everything started to roll,

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that the university supported us to start.

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own startup company what is compost tea exactly why why do we make compost tea what's the process of doing that and why not just use compost basically yeah compost tea has a bit of funny name at the beginning we thought we should change this name because to sell a farm or compost tea is kind of hard and the investors of the banks even laughed more about this idea but it really tells you the core principle you dissolve compost and

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in the water and this already brings us to the advantage compared to the normal compost just the use case on the golf courses you cannot spread compost on the golf pitching places because then the ball has a labyrinth to go so

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the liquid version is much easier to apply and there is also not so much highly quality compost around

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so composting plants they recycle organic material

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And for this they get the money.

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But they don't get the money to produce a very microbial,

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diverse,

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very major compost which has this high diversity of microbiology.

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And to produce this highly quality compost you already end up with a much higher price that you cannot really spread it in those huge amounts every year onto your fields.

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And when we have it liquid,

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we can apply it three to five times a year onto the fields,

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on highly cash crops you can apply a bit more,

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on the pastures a bit less.

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You're very flexible when you do it and you don't need a big amount of the compost,

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which lowers the cost,

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lowers the logistics,

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and the plant also has a better benefit of having it liquid.

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Because the leaves,

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they can take up nutrients.

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And those nutrients can be quite complex,

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like an enzyme,

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a vitamin,

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an amino acid.

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And that's what we bring into liquid form directly onto the plant.

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So it's more precise,

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it's very fast,

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and we have the immediate effect.

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While with compost,

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you have to wait until the rain slowly washes in the microbiology.

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But of course,

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it's not fully the same.

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compost brings much more nutrients so compost is a better or basic fertilizers and compost tea doesn't replace the compost because compost tea doesn't bring so many nutrients it's much more a biostimulant okay so it's like the difference between a fertilizer and a biostimulant one brings the nutrients to the plants to the to the soil and the other one is more about stimulating the microbiology.

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Exactly,

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yes.

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Okay,

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so maybe a silly question,

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but once you've done your compost tea,

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you've separated the liquid,

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right,

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that has all of the microbiology there.

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What do you do with the leftovers?

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Do you still apply that to the fields?

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There's still nutrients there,

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I'm guessing.

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1000 liter of compost tea needs 30 liter of compost.

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And after I sieve out the leftover,

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when everything is dissolved,

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it's maybe two liters of a kind of a muddy liquid.

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And this,

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in my case,

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I just add to the cow manure pit

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I have on the side in the farm.

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And like this,

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all the time,

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inoculate this manure pit with useful biology.

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Some other farmers take it and put it to the garden of the wife,

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to the vegetables.

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And I hear often then the wife suddenly starts to support the farmer much more.

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that is praising the evening compost tea because she knows she gets this very good leftover that her vegetables grow much better that's a nice one but so typically how would one make compost tea what is the process of making it the

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basics is you need a bucket or a big drum where you can fill in water you need an air pump and you need compost and for the compost tea process it often takes about

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24 hours to

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48 hours to produce the compost tea.

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There are also different recipes where you just sometimes steer or just make an extract within three hours.

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There is not one rule you can follow.

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It's a do-it-yourself idea which is done all over the world.

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So you find any way of solutions.

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We,

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as Adapro kind of standard,

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Dice it to

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24 hours,

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3%

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of compost and 0.3%

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of a food which is used to propagate the microorganisms.

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Okay,

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because this is something I've heard before is that there's sometimes an issue with certain compost being very efficient,

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others not so much.

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There's no standardized system and so it's kind of hard to know how efficient your compost actually is.

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But in your case you've sort of

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You've taken it a step further and made it into a bit more of a science,

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right?

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Exactly.

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During our studies,

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we had six little brewers.

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And for two years,

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we just tested what is happening during those 24 hours.

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A few times we kind of stayed awake 24 hours and constantly did the microscoping.

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We had all the measurement tools from the university,

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measured pH,

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EC,

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electrical.

249
00:15:11.614 --> 00:15:27.332
conductivity and so on and get all this data and then with this data and the compersion of all the studies we saw we get a quite high micro wheel density we saw under the microscope we have the diversity and

250
00:15:27.371 --> 00:15:40.449
the tea we with the best recipe and all the time was with the dissolved oxygen in the right levels we took it to the next stage to the greenhouse trials where we narrowed

251
00:15:40.670 --> 00:15:45.833
all the recipes to three recipes and tested again on the plants to get all the data.

252
00:15:46.755 --> 00:15:48.817
And then we ended up with one recipe,

253
00:15:49.396 --> 00:15:54.427
one compost mixture and the setup of the size of the compost deep brewer,

254
00:15:55.208 --> 00:15:57.833
the power of the air blower and so on.

255
00:15:58.474 --> 00:15:59.692
And what we also realized,

256
00:15:59.724 --> 00:16:02.677
we really liked the system with a vortex.

257
00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:06.621
Which is a complete other topic.

258
00:16:07.783 --> 00:16:09.664
I think we should talk later about it,

259
00:16:09.665 --> 00:16:11.766
about the quality of water and the structure of water.

260
00:16:12.188 --> 00:16:12.789
I have a sure.

261
00:16:12.887 --> 00:16:13.012
Yeah,

262
00:16:13.051 --> 00:16:13.168
yeah.

263
00:16:13.653 --> 00:16:13.770
So

264
00:16:14.551 --> 00:16:19.535
I'm trying to understand what were the variables that you were using to test all of these different recipes?

265
00:16:21.621 --> 00:16:24.981
The variables are the design of the compost tea brewer,

266
00:16:25.356 --> 00:16:29.199
how much water to the power of the air blower,

267
00:16:30.231 --> 00:16:31.543
how much compost you add,

268
00:16:31.699 --> 00:16:32.903
which compost you add.

269
00:16:33.731 --> 00:16:34.246
and

270
00:16:35.288 --> 00:16:37.149
the food mixture.

271
00:16:37.731 --> 00:16:40.392
So you end up with many vulnerabilities.

272
00:16:40.974 --> 00:16:41.735
And of course,

273
00:16:42.817 --> 00:16:49.685
I would say there are dozens other recipes out in the world which function well as good as ours.

274
00:16:50.380 --> 00:16:51.021
But in the end,

275
00:16:51.067 --> 00:16:52.880
you have to find your recipe.

276
00:16:53.130 --> 00:16:56.208
And we are very happy what we designed then,

277
00:16:56.364 --> 00:16:58.224
because since 12 years,

278
00:16:58.349 --> 00:17:00.458
we work with the same setup.

279
00:17:00.567 --> 00:17:00.817
Okay,

280
00:17:00.896 --> 00:17:01.021
yeah.

281
00:17:01.630 --> 00:17:02.036
And so...

282
00:17:03.212 --> 00:17:04.632
You did all of these different trials,

283
00:17:04.693 --> 00:17:05.552
different recipes.

284
00:17:06.695 --> 00:17:09.214
What were you measuring to sort of analyze,

285
00:17:09.215 --> 00:17:11.155
to see what was working better than others?

286
00:17:12.452 --> 00:17:15.991
First we just applied to the plant and just observed everything.

287
00:17:16.734 --> 00:17:18.257
We checked what is happening.

288
00:17:18.632 --> 00:17:19.960
Are the plants getting bigger,

289
00:17:20.038 --> 00:17:21.382
produce bigger leaves,

290
00:17:21.757 --> 00:17:22.991
produce more chlorophyll,

291
00:17:24.632 --> 00:17:27.741
have bigger stems or just are healthier,

292
00:17:27.882 --> 00:17:29.554
have no disease and so on.

293
00:17:31.176 --> 00:17:34.821
Each time what we also saw is we have higher root biomass.

294
00:17:35.700 --> 00:17:37.762
And at the beginning I was like,

295
00:17:39.125 --> 00:17:41.368
does it help the farmers when you have more roots?

296
00:17:41.750 --> 00:17:42.625
They want more yield.

297
00:17:43.789 --> 00:17:45.086
So we were a bit,

298
00:17:45.289 --> 00:17:45.454
hmm,

299
00:17:46.047 --> 00:17:46.274
yeah,

300
00:17:46.368 --> 00:17:46.735
okay.

301
00:17:47.157 --> 00:17:49.641
And in the case of the golf course,

302
00:17:50.438 --> 00:17:58.985
more root biomass was very good because apparently the grass is then much healthier and the ball of the golfer is faster.

303
00:17:59.688 --> 00:18:00.610
So it's a better green.

304
00:18:01.176 --> 00:18:05.341
And this helps us a lot because we get immediately a big first customer.

305
00:18:05.802 --> 00:18:06.743
And with it,

306
00:18:07.122 --> 00:18:11.247
we started also to test the system on other plants.

307
00:18:11.388 --> 00:18:12.185
Because basically,

308
00:18:12.224 --> 00:18:15.872
composting can be used for all plants which are growing in the soil.

309
00:18:17.435 --> 00:18:18.138
And like this,

310
00:18:18.139 --> 00:18:21.622
we have customers in tree care in the cities,

311
00:18:22.060 --> 00:18:22.919
tree nurseries.

312
00:18:23.654 --> 00:18:25.825
We have vegetable farms,

313
00:18:25.966 --> 00:18:26.825
apple farms,

314
00:18:27.700 --> 00:18:28.404
fruit farms,

315
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:29.404
all.

316
00:18:30.068 --> 00:18:33.489
farming crop plants and green pastures and so on.

317
00:18:35.049 --> 00:18:36.850
So you ended up with this one recipe,

318
00:18:37.530 --> 00:18:39.248
but is it possible,

319
00:18:39.272 --> 00:18:45.733
is it the case that this one recipe will work really well in one context and then another one would work better in a different context,

320
00:18:46.491 --> 00:18:47.491
depending on what you're growing,

321
00:18:47.553 --> 00:18:48.897
what the soil conditions are,

322
00:18:49.178 --> 00:18:50.412
the climate and all of these things?

323
00:18:51.412 --> 00:18:52.256
I would say yes,

324
00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:55.912
but already to explain the system to the farmer,

325
00:18:56.147 --> 00:18:57.334
how to use the compost tea,

326
00:18:57.335 --> 00:18:59.147
how to produce the compost tea and so on,

327
00:18:59.148 --> 00:18:59.272
Nate.

328
00:19:00.412 --> 00:19:01.474
It's quite difficult,

329
00:19:02.394 --> 00:19:03.415
it needs a lot of time,

330
00:19:04.296 --> 00:19:10.542
and to have more and more different recipes for different purposes and everything would make it more complex.

331
00:19:11.761 --> 00:19:12.003
But

332
00:19:12.808 --> 00:19:17.104
I think in the future it would be a goal to start with different,

333
00:19:18.214 --> 00:19:18.776
more,

334
00:19:18.886 --> 00:19:20.776
and find also other recipes.

335
00:19:22.136 --> 00:19:24.776
I'm trying to understand how this actually works.

336
00:19:25.183 --> 00:19:27.823
I visualized my tea bag that I put in hot water.

337
00:19:28.524 --> 00:19:28.764
you know,

338
00:19:28.824 --> 00:19:30.305
it dissolves into the hot water.

339
00:19:31.664 --> 00:19:33.684
What happens when you do that with compost exactly?

340
00:19:33.685 --> 00:19:34.707
Is it just the microbes,

341
00:19:34.708 --> 00:19:39.223
they kind of detach from the physical material and just fall into the water?

342
00:19:39.707 --> 00:19:40.426
What's the process?

343
00:19:41.207 --> 00:19:41.324
Yeah,

344
00:19:41.387 --> 00:19:41.785
exactly.

345
00:19:41.809 --> 00:19:43.387
The microbes,

346
00:19:44.027 --> 00:19:46.613
I tell it sometimes on my microscoping courses,

347
00:19:46.988 --> 00:19:50.191
they are like building up huge cities,

348
00:19:50.332 --> 00:19:51.082
which is the humus.

349
00:19:51.910 --> 00:19:53.285
And they are living in this humus.

350
00:19:54.124 --> 00:19:55.846
They have shelter there,

351
00:19:55.967 --> 00:19:56.867
they have the water,

352
00:19:57.047 --> 00:19:57.729
they have the food,

353
00:19:58.010 --> 00:19:59.350
so they are living in this humus.

354
00:19:59.830 --> 00:20:01.733
And that they leave it to the water,

355
00:20:02.354 --> 00:20:03.596
they need some nutrients,

356
00:20:04.096 --> 00:20:04.971
they like the air,

357
00:20:05.096 --> 00:20:06.072
they like the warm water,

358
00:20:06.533 --> 00:20:08.080
and then they slowly dissolve,

359
00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.799
also with the power of the circulation and the airflow.

360
00:20:13.549 --> 00:20:18.533
But this process we saw takes around three hours that really everything gets dissolved.

361
00:20:18.690 --> 00:20:21.330
And it's then not only the microbiology,

362
00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:22.377
also different.

363
00:20:22.780 --> 00:20:41.864
umic acids and also in the compost compost is very rich as well in those secondary metabolites everything what the microorganisms produced also different enzymes vitamins amino acids they're already also there in the compost and dissolve into the water but what so sorry could you explain what the secondary metabolite is it's

364
00:20:41.973 --> 00:20:51.614
everything what kind of the microorganisms poop everything what they digest goes out into the into the water

365
00:20:52.248 --> 00:20:55.310
And those are the different secondary metabolites.

366
00:20:55.431 --> 00:20:55.652
Okay,

367
00:20:55.771 --> 00:20:58.435
so those microbes and fungi,

368
00:20:58.513 --> 00:21:01.560
they have processes like eating,

369
00:21:01.638 --> 00:21:02.201
ingesting,

370
00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:03.341
pooping and all of that.

371
00:21:04.021 --> 00:21:06.779
And the secondary materials,

372
00:21:07.505 --> 00:21:13.349
elements that are created from that life of the microbes is what you call the secondary metabolite.

373
00:21:13.646 --> 00:21:13.771
Yeah.

374
00:21:13.974 --> 00:21:14.131
Okay,

375
00:21:14.537 --> 00:21:14.693
sorry,

376
00:21:14.756 --> 00:21:14.990
go on.

377
00:21:16.456 --> 00:21:18.399
So we have those compounds.

378
00:21:18.918 --> 00:21:22.262
So it is the biology which makes the effect in the compost tea.

379
00:21:23.083 --> 00:21:23.864
But in the end,

380
00:21:24.344 --> 00:21:25.825
when we use it on the plant,

381
00:21:25.942 --> 00:21:29.747
it's really those chemical compounds and not anymore the life.

382
00:21:30.606 --> 00:21:34.168
Each time we spray compost tea onto the soil or onto the plants,

383
00:21:34.247 --> 00:21:36.200
I prefer to spray it onto the leaves.

384
00:21:37.434 --> 00:21:39.700
We apply biology,

385
00:21:40.856 --> 00:21:44.856
but most of them are going to die because the environment is already set.

386
00:21:45.528 --> 00:21:46.012
there are

387
00:21:46.312 --> 00:21:51.677
already microorganisms and they are there because they're due to this environment.

388
00:21:52.177 --> 00:21:55.341
And we bring soil microbiology in high diversity,

389
00:21:56.560 --> 00:21:59.802
but maybe they are not adapted to this environment they are getting.

390
00:22:00.826 --> 00:22:07.873
So there is only a little chance that some things get placed to this new environment,

391
00:22:08.373 --> 00:22:15.560
but we really saw the effect that we have a biostimulation which comes from those secondary Metabolites

392
00:22:16.192 --> 00:22:18.715
feed the plant enzymes vitamins,

393
00:22:18.734 --> 00:22:30.486
amino acids directly over the leaf or maybe also with irrigation over the roots and this gives the plant like a bit of energy push.

394
00:22:32.174 --> 00:22:45.315
The plant can produce a little bit more photosynthesis more sugars and those sugars they pump down to the root system and feed the biology which is there because the root

395
00:22:46.353 --> 00:23:09.557
biology is shaping the microbiome quite a lot as soon as seed starts to grow around it the microbiology changes to what was in the soil okay okay i had no idea so basically you're not necessarily just adding those microbes because you want to add them to the to the ecosystem and to boost the whole microbiome

396
00:23:09.558 --> 00:23:14.448
in the soil and on your plants it's more like these secondary metabolites created by these microbes

397
00:23:14.776 --> 00:23:18.841
are like some kind of food for the existing microbiology that already exists on the plant,

398
00:23:18.860 --> 00:23:19.341
on the leaves,

399
00:23:19.342 --> 00:23:20.383
on the roots and so on.

400
00:23:21.122 --> 00:23:21.602
Exactly,

401
00:23:21.844 --> 00:23:21.985
yeah.

402
00:23:23.126 --> 00:23:38.977
I think some biology gonna end up there and we can raise the diversity and if some players were missing it definitely helps but it's really about this bringing the connection back for the plant and the soil.

403
00:23:39.616 --> 00:23:40.077
It really,

404
00:23:40.457 --> 00:23:41.238
around the roots,

405
00:23:41.239 --> 00:23:43.482
we often see that the roots connect with the soil.

406
00:23:43.541 --> 00:23:46.283
And we see that when we dig out plants,

407
00:23:46.501 --> 00:23:47.865
which were treated with compost tea,

408
00:23:48.365 --> 00:23:49.208
around the roots,

409
00:23:49.263 --> 00:23:50.787
we have this nice rhizohete.

410
00:23:51.224 --> 00:23:52.810
It's fine soil,

411
00:23:53.529 --> 00:23:54.974
which is sticking onto the roots.

412
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:56.255
So with this,

413
00:23:56.365 --> 00:23:57.474
I see the plant.

414
00:23:58.031 --> 00:24:03.511
put again more food in form of some carbohydrates,

415
00:24:03.531 --> 00:24:04.214
some sugars,

416
00:24:05.152 --> 00:24:07.511
some root exudates into the soil,

417
00:24:07.855 --> 00:24:09.917
fed the biology around these roots.

418
00:24:10.394 --> 00:24:11.417
And around there,

419
00:24:11.792 --> 00:24:14.355
you really see the humus formation and this very crumbly,

420
00:24:14.433 --> 00:24:16.652
nice soil sticking onto the root.

421
00:24:16.714 --> 00:24:20.214
And that's the effect which is happening a lot with composting.

422
00:24:20.589 --> 00:24:20.792
Okay,

423
00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:21.995
so what is happening there?

424
00:24:22.011 --> 00:24:24.183
Because you're spraying it on the plant,

425
00:24:24.230 --> 00:24:24.792
on the leaves.

426
00:24:25.179 --> 00:24:41.628
of the plant so you have this on the leaf of the plants how does that translate into the roots of that plants producing more exudates and feeding the soil microbiology yeah that's fascinating but the leaves are actually able to absorb nutrients quite well in

427
00:24:41.722 --> 00:24:52.941
some ways the leaf is completely different design than the roots but in the other hand it's still the same dna it's still the same structure one receives light and one not i one time saw this

428
00:24:53.139 --> 00:25:12.083
picture of a tree which was growing into a cave and in the cave in the evening you had some sun and the roots developed little leaves again so some plants can really um produce on the roots suddenly leaves again so it's it's very fascinating and it shows the

429
00:25:12.162 --> 00:25:19.099
organ looks completely different it has different functions but it still can do the same taking up nutrients okay

430
00:25:19.867 --> 00:25:21.830
And so the idea with it,

431
00:25:21.831 --> 00:25:26.334
we apply this compost tea and it stimulates the growth of the plants.

432
00:25:26.373 --> 00:25:34.041
But does it have other functions like stimulating the defenses of the plants and things like that to protect it from pests or disease?

433
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:35.002
Yeah,

434
00:25:35.003 --> 00:25:36.650
the functions are quite diverse.

435
00:25:36.759 --> 00:25:47.150
And also our professors in our study all the time claimed it's not real science because we cannot explain from where the effects are coming.

436
00:25:47.259 --> 00:25:49.041
We're just guessing all the time.

437
00:25:49.595 --> 00:25:50.176
But of course,

438
00:25:50.177 --> 00:25:55.761
we have this very diverse mixture of maybe 10,000 different bacterias,

439
00:25:56.163 --> 00:25:56.983
different fungi,

440
00:25:57.061 --> 00:25:58.003
different plazoas.

441
00:25:58.425 --> 00:26:00.065
You have all these humic acids,

442
00:26:00.104 --> 00:26:01.628
which are biostimulants.

443
00:26:01.667 --> 00:26:04.432
You have these different amino acids,

444
00:26:04.487 --> 00:26:05.776
these different vitamins,

445
00:26:05.807 --> 00:26:06.292
enzymes.

446
00:26:06.307 --> 00:26:13.682
So it's kind of impossible to narrow it down from where the core effect is coming and what is exactly happening.

447
00:26:14.573 --> 00:26:15.339
But what we see,

448
00:26:15.479 --> 00:26:15.917
of course,

449
00:26:15.948 --> 00:26:17.120
if you have a plant,

450
00:26:17.167 --> 00:26:17.464
which is...

451
00:26:17.707 --> 00:26:18.688
better nourished,

452
00:26:18.768 --> 00:26:20.867
which has a bit higher brix reading,

453
00:26:20.868 --> 00:26:22.248
the sugar level in the leaf,

454
00:26:22.428 --> 00:26:24.088
which has more root biomass,

455
00:26:25.029 --> 00:26:28.713
can be more resilient against pests,

456
00:26:29.229 --> 00:26:32.088
against climate conditions,

457
00:26:33.072 --> 00:26:35.205
and in the end also can produce more yield.

458
00:26:35.424 --> 00:26:41.111
But you cannot narrow it down to one effect like a nitrogen fertilizer,

459
00:26:41.205 --> 00:26:42.486
which is so simple.

460
00:26:44.339 --> 00:26:47.021
I really hope that you're enjoying this conversation so far.

461
00:26:47.162 --> 00:26:51.627
I just need to take a very short break to talk about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast,

462
00:26:51.947 --> 00:26:52.966
and that's Soil Capital.

463
00:26:53.631 --> 00:27:05.138
Soil Capital is a company that accelerates the transition to regenerative agriculture that we so desperately need by financially rewarding farmers who improve things like soil health and biodiversity.

464
00:27:05.982 --> 00:27:07.263
If you're interested to learn more,

465
00:27:07.341 --> 00:27:10.170
I will leave a link in the description of this episode.

466
00:27:10.623 --> 00:27:11.670
Now back to the conversation.

467
00:27:12.631 --> 00:27:17.692
So I know you showed me earlier you have what you call a bioreactor.

468
00:27:17.794 --> 00:27:18.251
Is that right?

469
00:27:19.153 --> 00:27:19.594
Exactly.

470
00:27:20.133 --> 00:27:21.915
It's a bit hard to say what it is,

471
00:27:22.016 --> 00:27:24.696
but in the end we propagate microbiology.

472
00:27:24.735 --> 00:27:27.977
So it's kind of a bioreactor or composting brewing system.

473
00:27:28.337 --> 00:27:29.415
Yeah,

474
00:27:29.430 --> 00:27:31.633
but you came up with this system yourself?

475
00:27:32.008 --> 00:27:32.649
You invented it?

476
00:27:32.712 --> 00:27:34.571
You took it from someone else?

477
00:27:35.274 --> 00:27:37.774
We took some ideas which were out in the internet,

478
00:27:38.430 --> 00:27:40.290
get inspired and started to

479
00:27:40.399 --> 00:27:57.301
produce our own prototypes and after a while we really end up with this one brewing system out of stainless steel which has a very easy and practical design which we developed yeah okay is that something that you're selling

480
00:27:57.598 --> 00:28:07.066
you replicating and selling to other farmers or is it just for yourself no i also selling it with adapro to to the farmers this system which i showed you is

481
00:28:07.903 --> 00:28:10.365
Around 30 farmers in Switzerland have one.

482
00:28:11.066 --> 00:28:13.590
And we also have a partner in the Netherlands,

483
00:28:13.808 --> 00:28:21.336
which is producing by himself bigger units because the farms in the Netherlands are bigger and is selling it since two years successfully.

484
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:30.062
And further partners are in touch in Germany or in Spain.

485
00:28:30.172 --> 00:28:30.812
And yeah,

486
00:28:30.828 --> 00:28:32.750
we will see where this whole journey goes to.

487
00:28:33.234 --> 00:28:33.469
Okay,

488
00:28:33.609 --> 00:28:33.750
yeah.

489
00:28:36.576 --> 00:28:39.297
So you mentioned the waters because your recipe is,

490
00:28:39.739 --> 00:28:40.161
you said,

491
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:40.680
so...

492
00:28:41.379 --> 00:28:41.801
Exactly,

493
00:28:41.879 --> 00:28:43.641
about the design of the brewer,

494
00:28:44.145 --> 00:28:48.387
what in our composting brewer happens is that we create a vortex.

495
00:28:49.504 --> 00:28:59.004
So the water is turning like you see it sometimes in a mountain river or when you open the water in your bathing tub,

496
00:28:59.614 --> 00:29:00.879
it creates this vortex.

497
00:29:01.582 --> 00:29:04.082
So the water likes to do this.

498
00:29:04.983 --> 00:29:07.886
And there was an Austrian scientist,

499
00:29:08.186 --> 00:29:09.108
Viktor Schauberger,

500
00:29:09.706 --> 00:29:19.737
and he explained in a very more holistic or even spiritual way that the water changes its structure.

501
00:29:20.401 --> 00:29:29.542
And it's a very difficult topic until I met someone which is able to do the microscoping pictures of the water.

502
00:29:29.901 --> 00:29:33.276
You just put a little droplet onto the slide.

503
00:29:33.699 --> 00:29:48.590
let it dry and then you see how the minerals form and i gave her the different samples of water which was just aerated with bubbles or water which was aerated with the vortex and those pictures looked

504
00:29:48.637 --> 00:30:02.840
completely different and she explained immediately ah the vortex water does is the good water you see this very nice structure involving and it has a lot of energy and she explained me that also the cells

505
00:30:03.981 --> 00:30:25.925
the water in the cells of a plant also is structured and it's very narrow on being sometimes maybe a bit put into the esoteric side of science that water can carry information that water is changed if it's around

506
00:30:25.926 --> 00:30:32.566
the magnetic field or a mobile phone but you really see it on those microcopic pictures

507
00:30:33.313 --> 00:30:39.441
And we also saw that if you just treat seeds with structured water,

508
00:30:39.741 --> 00:30:40.800
they germinate better,

509
00:30:41.218 --> 00:30:42.460
they suck in the water better.

510
00:30:43.140 --> 00:30:48.710
And I really believe that the water in the cells is different than just normal water.

511
00:30:49.085 --> 00:30:49.265
Wow.

512
00:30:49.390 --> 00:30:49.593
Okay.

513
00:30:49.624 --> 00:30:57.796
So there's actually been trials with differently structured water to see really if there's a difference in uptake.

514
00:30:59.093 --> 00:31:14.925
result on the plants yeah there are trials and there is also some scientists they really prove those effects there is a different there is structured water there's a fourth phase of water which is not gas liquid or frozen which also probably is in the plant cells and

515
00:31:15.011 --> 00:31:28.120
it's all published in nature but it really goes into deep physical physics which is sometimes too hard to really understand for me and fully explain what is happening there.

516
00:31:28.689 --> 00:31:44.812
but it happens so in your bioreactor you have this vortex movement so that your water then gets that effect while it's brewing yes exactly that's it so to the water you add you said a compost and and compost food you you mentioned earlier exactly

517
00:31:45.078 --> 00:31:56.859
we call it microbial food so we have the compost but the food in the compost for the microbiology is nearly used up because they used all the organic matter and build up the umic acids

518
00:31:57.758 --> 00:32:15.279
the humus which forms stable form so what we want with our compost tea we want the propagation of microbiology that we have those exudates of the of the bacterias the secondary metabolites so for this we add a plant-based food which

519
00:32:15.311 --> 00:32:23.842
also has some minerals which is very fine grounded they can really dissolve it within 24 hours and the

520
00:32:24.420 --> 00:32:25.904
EDDM. What do you

521
00:32:26.249 --> 00:32:41.329
put in that food what is it made of this food is made of umic acids which are dissolvable in water it's a rock dust powder which is rich in minerals and silicon which

522
00:32:41.330 --> 00:32:55.571
is very important also for the microbiology and the plants itself and also algae powder because it's also rich in a diverse range of minerals and we also add different herbal powders.

523
00:32:56.805 --> 00:32:57.465
As we saw,

524
00:32:57.605 --> 00:33:04.447
we can make the whole process of producing compost tea more stable and some alfalfa powder.

525
00:33:04.947 --> 00:33:08.689
It's a very fast-growing legume plant,

526
00:33:09.268 --> 00:33:11.252
which has a very strong root network.

527
00:33:12.010 --> 00:33:14.143
And we get those auxins,

528
00:33:14.236 --> 00:33:15.143
those hormones,

529
00:33:16.049 --> 00:33:24.814
into the compost tea and with it also have the better effect on the root growth and is also rich in proteins and nitrogen,

530
00:33:24.971 --> 00:33:25.908
so it's a good way

531
00:33:27.050 --> 00:33:29.012
boost for the microbiology to grow.

532
00:33:29.412 --> 00:33:29.652
Okay,

533
00:33:29.693 --> 00:33:40.166
so all of these different ingredients ground into a powder and then you add that to the compost tea that is turning in the vortex in the bioreactor,

534
00:33:40.244 --> 00:33:40.439
right?

535
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.400
And that feeds the microbiology there,

536
00:33:43.853 --> 00:33:46.916
so that they produce more of this secondary metabolites,

537
00:33:46.917 --> 00:33:47.291
is that right?

538
00:33:47.603 --> 00:33:47.775
Yes,

539
00:33:47.869 --> 00:33:48.228
exactly.

540
00:33:48.307 --> 00:33:51.947
And then therefore you have a better quality tea.

541
00:33:52.916 --> 00:33:53.119
Yes.

542
00:33:54.262 --> 00:33:55.363
This is the whole principle.

543
00:33:55.622 --> 00:34:01.906
We basically extract the microbiology in those 24 hours and also propagate the microbiology.

544
00:34:02.171 --> 00:34:07.078
So in a way it's also a way of boosting the effects you can get from compost.

545
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:09.742
So you would have a bag of compost if you put it on the soil.

546
00:34:10.117 --> 00:34:10.257
Well,

547
00:34:10.273 --> 00:34:11.242
it works a bit differently.

548
00:34:11.243 --> 00:34:13.820
You have to wait longer for it to decompose.

549
00:34:14.335 --> 00:34:17.210
It nourishes your soil in a bit of a different way than the tea.

550
00:34:17.257 --> 00:34:22.585
but in this case because you feed it as well you multiply the the potential

551
00:34:23.101 --> 00:34:24.883
effect of that same amount of compost.

552
00:34:25.344 --> 00:34:26.305
Is that the idea?

553
00:34:26.846 --> 00:34:26.984
Yeah,

554
00:34:27.045 --> 00:34:27.486
exactly.

555
00:34:28.088 --> 00:34:34.955
What we saw in further tests is we don't propagate the whole range of microbiology in those 24 hours.

556
00:34:35.393 --> 00:34:37.994
It's certain bacterias which profit a lot.

557
00:34:38.658 --> 00:34:43.775
But when I did my research on the internet of what are those bacterias doing,

558
00:34:44.744 --> 00:34:46.900
they have a very wide range and effect.

559
00:34:47.322 --> 00:34:48.682
They can mobilize phosphorus,

560
00:34:48.744 --> 00:34:50.932
they can mobilize potassium

561
00:34:51.581 --> 00:34:54.904
They are root growth promoting bacterias,

562
00:34:55.125 --> 00:35:01.767
they are having an effect to protect the roots from diseases and so on.

563
00:35:01.814 --> 00:35:03.674
So the literature is very wide.

564
00:35:04.021 --> 00:35:07.123
of these certain bacteria we propagate in the composting process.

565
00:35:07.642 --> 00:35:17.964
So what we basically can do is we have a way that the farmer can do those products by themselves on the farm,

566
00:35:18.621 --> 00:35:24.144
which some other companies produce in the lab and try to sell it as a plant stimulant.

567
00:35:25.113 --> 00:35:33.363
So we have the advantage that the farmer in the end does it by himself on the farm to produce a microbial

568
00:35:33.889 --> 00:35:37.753
preparation or a biostimulant which has a great effect on the plant growth.

569
00:35:38.532 --> 00:35:43.321
Why is it better to do it directly on the farm than buy it in a pre-made in a bottle?

570
00:35:44.743 --> 00:35:48.360
Most of the biostimulants like compost tea is 95%

571
00:35:48.642 --> 00:35:58.235
of water and to ship water around it has costs it's also not the best for the environment it's also when a company

572
00:35:58.441 --> 00:36:20.390
produces biostimulants fill it up into the bottle and wants to sell it there has to be a salesman going around every year try to sell it again there's a marketing around the licensing many bacterias which are plant growth promoting from the big companies they even have a patent on it cost a lot of money so

573
00:36:21.030 --> 00:36:25.171
in the end those products are very expensive they are maybe good they work

574
00:36:25.905 --> 00:36:28.505
We tested some of those products against the compost tea.

575
00:36:29.386 --> 00:36:33.165
Compost tea all the time had the same effect or better.

576
00:36:34.349 --> 00:36:36.489
And for a tenth of the price.

577
00:36:36.849 --> 00:36:37.911
So for the farmer,

578
00:36:38.044 --> 00:36:42.614
it brings really value back onto the farm and he produces by himself.

579
00:36:43.411 --> 00:36:46.255
And what we also realized when the farmer starts to work it,

580
00:36:46.989 --> 00:36:48.114
it also empowers him.

581
00:36:48.583 --> 00:36:51.255
Because suddenly he is the...

582
00:36:51.573 --> 00:37:07.899
biotechnologist which is producing it so it really helps the farmer to get the passion for this microbiology for the root growth for being independent of of of the companies and external inputs yeah but

583
00:37:08.024 --> 00:37:18.852
you you also have to but the farmer also has to buy the the machine in the first place the the bioreactor right so there's a bit of an investment upfront investment that you wouldn't have if you were buying a

584
00:37:19.365 --> 00:37:20.506
There is a front investment,

585
00:37:20.566 --> 00:37:21.187
but of course,

586
00:37:21.308 --> 00:37:25.550
I also give a lot of courses about composting in our regenerative community.

587
00:37:25.773 --> 00:37:26.953
And I tell everyone,

588
00:37:27.335 --> 00:37:28.593
just go onto YouTube.

589
00:37:28.632 --> 00:37:32.179
There are many simple do-it-yourself options.

590
00:37:33.062 --> 00:37:35.023
And it depends on the type of the farmer.

591
00:37:36.140 --> 00:37:37.109
If he has the time,

592
00:37:37.140 --> 00:37:41.765
if he likes to do the trials and do some technical implementations,

593
00:37:41.766 --> 00:37:43.624
he can build it by himself.

594
00:37:44.145 --> 00:37:47.448
We have many farmers that build it by themselves and some they say

595
00:37:47.829 --> 00:37:52.112
I don't have time I want your product I think it's good design and then they buy my product.

596
00:37:52.253 --> 00:37:52.971
Okay.

597
00:37:52.972 --> 00:38:07.143
I don't care my goal is to help the farmers I buy myself a farmer and I know that sometimes money is tight that sometimes as a farmer you think you can do everything by yourself and it's it is sometimes like this we...

598
00:38:08.622 --> 00:38:10.144
We know a bit about electricity,

599
00:38:10.145 --> 00:38:11.243
we know a bit about mechanics,

600
00:38:11.884 --> 00:38:12.563
we are farmers,

601
00:38:12.564 --> 00:38:14.888
we know about chemistry and biology and everything.

602
00:38:14.927 --> 00:38:16.688
It's the amazing thing of being a farmer.

603
00:38:17.634 --> 00:38:22.517
And we have sometimes time in winter to do such projects.

604
00:38:22.579 --> 00:38:26.720
And what about the food that you feed the microbes,

605
00:38:26.813 --> 00:38:27.360
that powder,

606
00:38:27.407 --> 00:38:28.517
that mix that you came up with?

607
00:38:28.548 --> 00:38:32.345
Is that also something you commercialize and sell to farmers who want to do their own?

608
00:38:32.721 --> 00:38:50.251
exactly i sell it to the farmers like the compost but also there are some farmers they they produce their own compost some farmers they have their own food source but by the compost it's as diverse our microbiologies in the soil as diverses are our customers and

609
00:38:51.032 --> 00:38:58.188
we don't keep it as a closed system and say only with our product it works because i know there are other ways to do it

610
00:38:59.733 --> 00:39:03.317
freshly produced compost on the farm can be very good.

611
00:39:03.336 --> 00:39:05.198
You have the microbiology on your farm,

612
00:39:05.260 --> 00:39:08.518
you really close the farm circle and so on.

613
00:39:08.682 --> 00:39:08.799
So

614
00:39:09.424 --> 00:39:10.440
I keep it there open.

615
00:39:11.104 --> 00:39:14.010
What I can guarantee if they have our brewing system,

616
00:39:14.065 --> 00:39:17.846
have the compost and have the food source that everything is adapted and worked.

617
00:39:17.893 --> 00:39:22.752
Like if you add too much compost and the air blower is too weak,

618
00:39:23.315 --> 00:39:25.643
you suddenly have not aerobic conditions,

619
00:39:25.706 --> 00:39:26.284
enough air,

620
00:39:26.659 --> 00:39:29.002
and it propagates only anaerobic mites.

621
00:39:29.097 --> 00:39:46.075
microorganisms which are less desired than the aerobic which need air and so on so we just want to make it easy for the farmer if they don't have time to do everything by themselves but for those farmers who like to do their own stuff i'm

622
00:39:46.138 --> 00:39:57.778
also willing to help them and explain everything yeah sweet sweet yeah so obviously if you if they take the whole package you know it's been worked and optimized for a good number of years you said what 12 years

623
00:39:58.089 --> 00:39:58.210
Yeah,

624
00:39:58.211 --> 00:39:58.531
exactly.

625
00:39:58.551 --> 00:40:02.341
You've been doing this to make sure that this is the perfect optimized recipe.

626
00:40:02.462 --> 00:40:03.942
This is the right machine with the right

627
00:40:03.989 --> 00:40:22.610
right setting with the right food with the right compost and that gives you a great result but but yeah farmers are welcome to experiment and to do their own recipes and processes yeah i think i have my microscope i can check the quality i have all the tools to do the measurements about

628
00:40:22.611 --> 00:40:25.235
the dissolved air about ph and so on

629
00:40:26.109 --> 00:40:45.489
and it needs some equipment to really do your quality measurements and some farmers really they go into everything and some just say i don't want to learn to microscope sometimes i also like to be in the evenings with my family and i cannot sit in front of computer and learn how to microscope or something yeah yeah do

630
00:40:45.490 --> 00:40:55.583
you see this as a potential useful and powerful tool for farmers trying to transition away from conventional farming and does this help replacing some other forms of

631
00:40:56.989 --> 00:41:11.914
synthetic fertilizers or things like that yes i it's one little part in the whole regenerative practices the toolbox the this regenerative community has how

632
00:41:12.508 --> 00:41:22.930
to work more with the nature and what i saw i by myself transitioned from a very intensive conventional farm to organic farm and

633
00:41:23.867 --> 00:41:25.055
I tested my soils,

634
00:41:25.117 --> 00:41:25.617
I was by

635
00:41:26.538 --> 00:41:27.299
2.5%

636
00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:27.979
organic matter,

637
00:41:28.078 --> 00:41:29.883
which is humus content.

638
00:41:29.981 --> 00:41:31.383
Organic matter would be even lower.

639
00:41:32.922 --> 00:41:33.203
And

640
00:41:33.606 --> 00:41:35.547
I had some compaction layers.

641
00:41:35.703 --> 00:41:38.149
I saw that the roots didn't grow so well.

642
00:41:39.313 --> 00:41:39.828
So for me,

643
00:41:40.047 --> 00:41:40.852
it was the question,

644
00:41:40.992 --> 00:41:45.781
how can I support the whole transition to a more sustainable way,

645
00:41:45.875 --> 00:41:47.516
to a more natural way?

646
00:41:48.641 --> 00:41:49.406
And there,

647
00:41:49.422 --> 00:41:53.203
I think compost tea really can help to fasten up the process.

648
00:41:54.137 --> 00:42:15.336
stay on a good level with your yields which you need to to support the whole transition and so on yeah a farmer who's in this process of maybe transitioning to uh to a more regenerative mindset more regenerative system it takes time it takes steps like how does this fit in for that farmer for

649
00:42:15.367 --> 00:42:19.883
a conventional farmer it's very hard to suddenly change his whole cropping system when we

650
00:42:20.165 --> 00:42:35.116
take the example of a wheat crop where are we gonna start to use less fungicides for example because we know fungicides they also kill the soil fungi it's not very good it's in

651
00:42:35.140 --> 00:42:46.898
a regenerative approach not something you want to use but how can he help now the plant to protect itself so the composting really can help to have more root growth

652
00:42:47.305 --> 00:42:49.045
To have a better nutrient uptake,

653
00:42:49.306 --> 00:42:52.648
it also helps the farmers to reduce nutrient input,

654
00:42:52.765 --> 00:42:58.109
because we have biology inside which also helps to dissolve potassium,

655
00:42:58.531 --> 00:43:00.007
dissolve phosphorus,

656
00:43:00.085 --> 00:43:00.648
and so on.

657
00:43:01.687 --> 00:43:04.390
And with the lower input of fertilizer,

658
00:43:04.984 --> 00:43:07.328
the soil microbiology again benefits,

659
00:43:07.468 --> 00:43:10.843
because the fertilizers also can harm microbiology in the soil.

660
00:43:11.656 --> 00:43:12.312
and with it,

661
00:43:12.890 --> 00:43:14.156
it is possible to slowly...

662
00:43:14.593 --> 00:43:16.894
go the way of being more regenerative.

663
00:43:17.494 --> 00:43:17.734
Okay,

664
00:43:17.773 --> 00:43:28.195
so you see this as a tool in the regenerative farmer toolbox and one of the tools to help steer the system towards regenerative,

665
00:43:28.234 --> 00:43:29.734
towards organic and things like that.

666
00:43:30.219 --> 00:43:30.672
Exactly.

667
00:43:30.859 --> 00:43:33.359
I think in regenerative farmers,

668
00:43:33.390 --> 00:43:35.156
it's all about managing its roots.

669
00:43:35.734 --> 00:43:38.922
A conventional farmer is all focused above ground.

670
00:43:38.923 --> 00:43:40.234
He wants to have healthy leaves.

671
00:43:40.562 --> 00:43:41.281
If they are sick,

672
00:43:41.515 --> 00:43:42.797
it needs fungicides.

673
00:43:43.203 --> 00:43:43.906
if we have

674
00:43:44.241 --> 00:44:00.320
sick leaves we all the time also do the soil sample see is there any problem do i have compacted soils how is the root structure how many fine roots i have and so on so for a regenerative farmer he really has to put his head into the soil check

675
00:44:00.554 --> 00:44:11.570
also the roots and with the composted we have one tool supporting this root growth but of course in regenerative farming we have many other tools like the crop rotation,

676
00:44:11.664 --> 00:44:12.867
the implementation of

677
00:44:13.549 --> 00:44:14.511
under-sowing,

678
00:44:14.751 --> 00:44:19.417
the implementation of cover crops which helps for a better root structure,

679
00:44:20.417 --> 00:44:25.182
all kind of machinery like direct sowing or just mulch sowing and so on.

680
00:44:25.643 --> 00:44:30.862
So as a regenerative farmer you have a whole toolbox and you have to find for your farm,

681
00:44:30.987 --> 00:44:32.268
for your case,

682
00:44:33.268 --> 00:44:34.143
what suits me well.

683
00:44:34.706 --> 00:44:34.909
Okay,

684
00:44:35.315 --> 00:44:35.425
yeah.

685
00:44:38.005 --> 00:44:39.446
You were talking earlier,

686
00:44:39.447 --> 00:44:44.352
you mentioned that you do leaf sap analysis and that helps you with your decision making on the farm.

687
00:44:45.712 --> 00:44:49.177
This is a concept that I've heard in a few podcasts recently,

688
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:50.536
but I haven't really dug into.

689
00:44:50.614 --> 00:44:53.341
I'm completely clueless.

690
00:44:53.802 --> 00:44:56.700
So I'd love it if you could explain what this is,

691
00:44:56.841 --> 00:44:57.138
basically.

692
00:44:57.184 --> 00:44:57.981
What's this process?

693
00:44:58.059 --> 00:44:58.825
Why you do this?

694
00:44:59.684 --> 00:45:00.872
How does it help you on the farm?

695
00:45:01.872 --> 00:45:01.981
Yeah,

696
00:45:02.075 --> 00:45:03.950
so as we started selling our company,

697
00:45:03.951 --> 00:45:06.464
Composting machines and farmers started to use composting.

698
00:45:06.923 --> 00:45:07.625
We had farmers,

699
00:45:07.664 --> 00:45:08.304
they called us.

700
00:45:09.629 --> 00:45:11.066
It's a great principle,

701
00:45:11.089 --> 00:45:11.890
I believed in it,

702
00:45:11.949 --> 00:45:13.152
but I don't see any effect.

703
00:45:13.472 --> 00:45:15.089
So I went to those farmers and

704
00:45:15.754 --> 00:45:16.214
I admit,

705
00:45:16.472 --> 00:45:17.433
I don't see any effect.

706
00:45:18.097 --> 00:45:18.214
So

707
00:45:18.754 --> 00:45:19.855
I was quite pressured.

708
00:45:20.175 --> 00:45:20.832
What I do now?

709
00:45:21.816 --> 00:45:21.941
So

710
00:45:22.300 --> 00:45:28.300
I started to just do my research again on the internet and I found the podcast of John Kempf,

711
00:45:28.488 --> 00:45:30.769
which was for me very inspiring.

712
00:45:31.857 --> 00:45:54.996
that he shares all his knowledge with all those experts and he also was talking all the time about this leaf sap analysis and i found out then ah it's a lab in the netherlands nova crop control is doing them and so close to me so i started to my first leaf sap analysis and i realized it's very great because i was so focusing on the roots and then the microbiology in the soil i

713
00:45:55.074 --> 00:46:01.058
did the opposite i was only stuck in the soil and never was thinking about the plant anymore so much

714
00:46:01.689 --> 00:46:03.510
So the leaf sap analysis is for me,

715
00:46:04.151 --> 00:46:06.995
the plant is a mirror of the soil microbiology,

716
00:46:07.014 --> 00:46:07.975
of the soil chemistry.

717
00:46:08.815 --> 00:46:12.600
What I find there is like a blood sample of the plant itself.

718
00:46:13.741 --> 00:46:18.413
And it also tells you how good is the soil microbiology working with some,

719
00:46:19.131 --> 00:46:19.663
for example,

720
00:46:19.664 --> 00:46:20.772
the silicon uptake.

721
00:46:21.756 --> 00:46:24.491
Is the soil maybe compacted and waterlogged?

722
00:46:24.553 --> 00:46:26.631
I see high aluminium contents.

723
00:46:27.272 --> 00:46:30.522
and what is very great in the leaf subanalysis

724
00:46:31.777 --> 00:46:36.179
is that you have the nitrogen split into nitrates,

725
00:46:36.562 --> 00:46:38.523
ammonium and total nitrogen.

726
00:46:39.406 --> 00:46:42.906
Which also gives you a great feedback how the plant is fed.

727
00:46:43.172 --> 00:46:47.195
Is it fed out of the bag with conventional nitrogen fertilizers?

728
00:46:47.711 --> 00:46:51.414
Or does the plant feed itself over the microbiology?

729
00:46:52.273 --> 00:46:53.945
If it's fed over the microbiology,

730
00:46:53.976 --> 00:46:55.695
we have low nitrate content,

731
00:46:56.039 --> 00:46:58.383
but still enough total nitrogen in the plant.

732
00:46:58.789 --> 00:47:00.820
And then we really see healthy plant growth.

733
00:47:01.549 --> 00:47:05.972
So it gives me a lot of information with a simple test,

734
00:47:06.093 --> 00:47:09.956
because the test of the leaf sap is technically much more easy,

735
00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:11.456
because it's pure,

736
00:47:11.682 --> 00:47:12.182
it's clean,

737
00:47:12.722 --> 00:47:18.378
and soil is so diverse and so different with the pH and the minerals.

738
00:47:18.722 --> 00:47:20.612
So soil analysis costs much more.

739
00:47:20.940 --> 00:47:24.159
The leaf sap analysis are very affordable.

740
00:47:24.565 --> 00:47:25.393
Practically speaking,

741
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:26.097
how do you do that?

742
00:47:27.428 --> 00:47:38.495
I go to the field before nine o'clock in the morning because then the plants start with the photosynthesis again and start to build up the sugar content and we want to have it before.

743
00:47:38.839 --> 00:47:44.027
And also the plant material stays fresh when I collect them before nine in the morning.

744
00:47:45.183 --> 00:47:50.808
I walk all over the field and collect young and old leaves in two different bags.

745
00:47:52.386 --> 00:47:53.995
About a bag full,

746
00:47:54.074 --> 00:47:55.277
it's about 100 grams of...

747
00:47:55.448 --> 00:47:58.672
plants which gives a good sample overview of one crop.

748
00:47:59.611 --> 00:48:08.658
I sent them to the lab in the Netherlands and within a week I have the results of around 15 different nutrients and often

749
00:48:09.541 --> 00:48:21.596
I see that some trace elements are still missing and those trace elements I easily can add to the compost tea and spray it onto the leaves and feed the missing trace elements.

750
00:48:21.689 --> 00:48:24.236
It's often in my case of the winter

751
00:48:24.540 --> 00:48:25.561
boron is washed out.

752
00:48:26.662 --> 00:48:30.107
I see sometimes when it gets dry manganese is missing,

753
00:48:31.287 --> 00:48:34.673
sometimes some plants like corn have a zinc deficiency,

754
00:48:35.134 --> 00:48:36.994
but I only need little amounts,

755
00:48:37.431 --> 00:48:44.478
talk about a kilo of zinc or a quarter of a kilo of molybdenum or even less,

756
00:48:45.587 --> 00:48:52.931
to help the plant work together with the microbiology and boost photosynthesis.

757
00:48:53.452 --> 00:48:53.572
Yeah,

758
00:48:53.612 --> 00:48:53.832
okay.

759
00:48:53.952 --> 00:48:57.694
So it's a bit like when I go to the doctor to get a blood test and they tell me,

760
00:48:57.733 --> 00:48:57.913
okay,

761
00:48:58.194 --> 00:48:59.374
you're missing a little bit of this,

762
00:48:59.375 --> 00:49:00.112
a little bit of that.

763
00:49:01.495 --> 00:49:04.417
You can either take some supplements or eat more broccoli or I don't know.

764
00:49:04.737 --> 00:49:08.315
But like if you do these things and you try to get those levels up in the right places,

765
00:49:08.378 --> 00:49:11.183
then you will be in better health and you will be functioning better.

766
00:49:11.214 --> 00:49:12.589
Your whole system will be functioning better.

767
00:49:12.651 --> 00:49:14.636
That's just basically the same idea,

768
00:49:14.714 --> 00:49:14.901
right?

769
00:49:15.214 --> 00:49:15.870
That's the same idea,

770
00:49:16.011 --> 00:49:16.276
right.

771
00:49:16.651 --> 00:49:19.792
But what we also see is all the over-fertilization.

772
00:49:21.120 --> 00:49:22.480
Most of the soil samples...

773
00:49:23.653 --> 00:49:25.493
They think about the soil as a dead system.

774
00:49:25.714 --> 00:49:27.294
It's just a chemical analysis.

775
00:49:28.036 --> 00:49:39.146
And they try to imitate with some acids the root exudates and then with this they estimate how much nutrients are plant-available.

776
00:49:39.974 --> 00:49:42.036
But now we see with the leaf sap analysis,

777
00:49:42.224 --> 00:49:45.490
even my soil samples say I'm very low in phosphorus.

778
00:49:46.240 --> 00:49:49.365
That I have very high levels of phosphorus in my leaf sap.

779
00:49:49.896 --> 00:49:51.318
So it tells me there are

780
00:49:51.628 --> 00:50:12.068
a mycorrhizal network which delivering the plant to phosphorus so i don't need to apply phosphorus i have many farmers especially in potato cultivating they applied already at the beginning of the season all the potassium and in the leafs up analysis we saw in the first stage of the growing we have very high potassium levels

781
00:50:12.474 --> 00:50:18.771
but very low magnesium levels because it blocks the uptake of the magnesium but in the vegetative grow

782
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:21.543
When the plant is producing a lot of biomass,

783
00:50:22.203 --> 00:50:24.325
it needs a lot of magnesium to build the chlorophyll.

784
00:50:24.746 --> 00:50:28.008
And later in the stage when it starts to build the tubers,

785
00:50:28.367 --> 00:50:29.328
we need the potassium.

786
00:50:30.047 --> 00:50:31.571
So with the farmers,

787
00:50:31.594 --> 00:50:40.680
we can now really see how much they actually have to apply and how much comes from the cover crop maybe before and when they have to apply the nutrients.

788
00:50:40.805 --> 00:50:47.992
So it's a different management and often nutrient management is first get rid of the excess.

789
00:50:48.204 --> 00:51:12.894
nutrients yeah which of course also the nature and the whole um ecosystem profits if we don't over apply nutrients obviously and as a farmer it helps your balance sheet right if you if you don't need to buy as much inputs because you realize that actually i have enough of this in my plants my soil sample showed that i was lacking this and what farmers usually do is then apply more of this but

790
00:51:12.925 --> 00:51:15.831
sometimes it's just unnecessary so you're spending money and time

791
00:51:16.252 --> 00:51:19.473
doing something that's not really benefiting your crop at the end of the day.

792
00:51:20.371 --> 00:51:20.531
Yeah,

793
00:51:20.594 --> 00:51:20.992
exactly.

794
00:51:21.031 --> 00:51:22.152
And this is the amazing thing.

795
00:51:23.672 --> 00:51:25.477
The analysis helps you to save money.

796
00:51:25.656 --> 00:51:27.117
You don't over-apply nutrients.

797
00:51:27.531 --> 00:51:37.438
It helps you to get a healthier crop because over-application of nitrogen can really lead to a lot of fungal diseases,

798
00:51:37.656 --> 00:51:38.375
insect pests,

799
00:51:38.391 --> 00:51:38.891
and so on.

800
00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:41.735
And if we combine

801
00:51:42.964 --> 00:51:45.506
Those missing trace elements with the compost tea,

802
00:51:45.526 --> 00:51:48.108
we also not only add microbiology,

803
00:51:48.131 --> 00:51:50.553
we also add the chemistry.

804
00:51:51.170 --> 00:52:03.967
And the amazing thing is we see that the mixture of those biostimulants and the microbiology in the compost tea helps also to help to take up those trace elements much better.

805
00:52:04.561 --> 00:52:09.655
so it's a in my opinion a very good blend of you know

806
00:52:10.356 --> 00:52:12.799
leaf fertilizer and stimulant.

807
00:52:13.238 --> 00:52:13.420
Okay,

808
00:52:13.900 --> 00:52:14.039
yeah.

809
00:52:14.320 --> 00:52:17.125
Plus I'm supposed then you apply both of them at the same time.

810
00:52:17.222 --> 00:52:21.429
It's one application rather than having to do two different operations separately.

811
00:52:22.390 --> 00:52:22.609
Yes.

812
00:52:23.390 --> 00:52:31.656
So I anyway drive with my boom sprayer to apply the compost tea and to add some trace elements doesn't make it much more expensive in the end.

813
00:52:32.390 --> 00:52:34.312
You can source them for a good price.

814
00:52:35.047 --> 00:52:37.578
You need so little amounts that you end up with maybe

815
00:52:37.968 --> 00:52:53.763
10 euro extra per hectare to apply those trace elements and with it together we see much more consistent results i started with this that a customer of me didn't have the effect so he had a apple orchard and

816
00:52:53.841 --> 00:53:05.091
perennial cultures they are harder to work with because they store the nutrients over the winter in the roots and they come up with the new growth again so if there is was over the years all the time

817
00:53:06.280 --> 00:53:07.702
Iron and manganese missing,

818
00:53:07.742 --> 00:53:09.384
it gets each year worse.

819
00:53:10.705 --> 00:53:13.208
And with applying all those nutrients,

820
00:53:13.427 --> 00:53:15.990
we suddenly had the photosynthesis again working,

821
00:53:16.310 --> 00:53:21.974
pumping much more sugars and carbon into the root zone and start to work with the microbiology.

822
00:53:22.482 --> 00:53:24.138
So at the beginning with compost tea,

823
00:53:24.154 --> 00:53:27.685
we basically just add biology and biostimulant,

824
00:53:27.763 --> 00:53:33.888
but it didn't help the plant because it missed the very essential nutrients to do photosynthesis.

825
00:53:34.451 --> 00:53:35.044
and together

826
00:53:35.524 --> 00:53:40.129
we get more photosynthesis and have the biology also fed by the plant.

827
00:53:40.731 --> 00:53:41.770
And that's the main goal.

828
00:53:43.153 --> 00:53:45.750
So if it's such a powerful tool to be doing this,

829
00:53:46.532 --> 00:53:49.055
to do this leaf sap analysis,

830
00:53:49.461 --> 00:53:50.219
it gives you so much...

831
00:53:51.033 --> 00:53:53.315
useful information that really allows you to farm better,

832
00:53:53.515 --> 00:53:54.376
to spend less money,

833
00:53:55.136 --> 00:53:56.280
and to get better results.

834
00:53:57.101 --> 00:54:00.483
Why is that not something that we see almost every farmer doing,

835
00:54:00.522 --> 00:54:02.765
and every agronomist using as a tool?

836
00:54:04.288 --> 00:54:06.788
I started around six years ago with it,

837
00:54:07.351 --> 00:54:14.335
and this year I'm already nearly on my limit with helping the other farmers interpret the data.

838
00:54:15.257 --> 00:54:17.616
And I also talked to the lab in NOVA Crop Control.

839
00:54:17.632 --> 00:54:19.804
They say every three years they move to a new building.

840
00:54:20.841 --> 00:54:26.806
So it really has worldwide gained a lot of attention by the farmers and it's used a lot.

841
00:54:28.029 --> 00:54:30.232
There is just kind of also a limit.

842
00:54:31.435 --> 00:54:34.974
Everyone can go out and sell this new technique.

843
00:54:36.154 --> 00:54:39.779
It's also you need to understand the leaf subanalysis.

844
00:54:39.857 --> 00:54:45.107
It's not so easy to interpret it if you never had the results in front of you.

845
00:54:45.764 --> 00:54:47.685
So someone needs to explain it.

846
00:54:48.748 --> 00:54:50.092
And I think right now I...

847
00:54:50.333 --> 00:55:06.476
barely see any promotion of the leaf subanalysis anywhere because everyone which is working in it tries to get all the work done they they get every year which is in my case doubling every year hi there again thank

848
00:55:06.477 --> 00:55:19.617
you so much for listening this far into the conversation i really appreciate it if you're enjoying the deep seat podcast and you find value in listening to these conversations you can actually support me and my work in just a few seconds.

849
00:55:20.321 --> 00:55:22.803
So wherever you're listening to this episode right now,

850
00:55:22.963 --> 00:55:28.768
all you need to do is click on the deep seat page and click on the follow or subscribe button.

851
00:55:29.409 --> 00:55:33.971
It only takes about five seconds and it makes a huge difference for me and for the podcast.

852
00:55:34.034 --> 00:55:37.580
So thank you so much in advance and let's get back to this conversation.

853
00:55:40.315 --> 00:55:43.143
So you've been doing this kind of analysis for a number of years,

854
00:55:43.159 --> 00:55:43.440
you know,

855
00:55:44.112 --> 00:55:44.580
and you've been...

856
00:55:45.409 --> 00:55:48.272
Transitioning the farm here to regenerative for a number of years,

857
00:55:48.352 --> 00:55:51.414
so you must have seen a progression in the results that you get.

858
00:55:51.454 --> 00:55:52.114
Is that the case?

859
00:55:52.895 --> 00:55:53.016
Yeah,

860
00:55:53.036 --> 00:55:56.957
I see a progression now when I take leaf subanalysis of my plants.

861
00:55:57.020 --> 00:55:57.684
I already see

862
00:55:58.184 --> 00:56:00.340
I have much more balanced nutrients uptake.

863
00:56:01.004 --> 00:56:06.809
I see also the trace elements going up and I also see I have stable yields.

864
00:56:08.997 --> 00:56:13.856
And also an important measurement in the leaf subanalysis is the sugar content.

865
00:56:14.213 --> 00:56:17.193
which tells me how much photosynthesis the plants are doing.

866
00:56:18.013 --> 00:56:18.193
Okay.

867
00:56:18.853 --> 00:56:19.576
Why is that important?

868
00:56:20.916 --> 00:56:23.197
Photosynthesis is taking

869
00:56:24.353 --> 00:56:25.455
CO2, the carbon,

870
00:56:25.697 --> 00:56:28.533
out of the air and producing biomass.

871
00:56:29.158 --> 00:56:35.877
And also a big part of this sucked-in carbon gets as root exudate,

872
00:56:35.892 --> 00:56:36.455
as sugars,

873
00:56:36.658 --> 00:56:37.299
into the soil.

874
00:56:37.705 --> 00:56:40.611
So we bring the carbon back there where it belongs to.

875
00:56:41.461 --> 00:56:49.269
And this is amazing why so many regenerative systems have the good effect when we think on syntropic agriculture.

876
00:56:49.609 --> 00:56:57.797
It's maximizing photosynthesis and maximizing taking everything which was produced as biomass back to the soil.

877
00:56:58.344 --> 00:57:01.437
Or if you take a diverse permaculture system,

878
00:57:02.375 --> 00:57:03.765
all the time there is something growing.

879
00:57:04.859 --> 00:57:07.906
So we have much more photosynthesis.

880
00:57:08.121 --> 00:57:10.122
But when we look on conventional agriculture,

881
00:57:10.161 --> 00:57:11.341
you have a wheat field.

882
00:57:12.804 --> 00:57:14.222
It dries in July out.

883
00:57:14.601 --> 00:57:15.581
It's not green anymore.

884
00:57:16.183 --> 00:57:22.425
But then we have the longest day and nothing is anymore capturing the sunlight and taking in the CO2,

885
00:57:22.761 --> 00:57:24.565
which is too much in the air and pumped to the soil.

886
00:57:25.503 --> 00:57:29.784
So photosynthesis is really the motor of the regeneration.

887
00:57:29.940 --> 00:57:31.300
And with the leaf subanalysis,

888
00:57:31.362 --> 00:57:33.034
I have a tool for my crops,

889
00:57:33.128 --> 00:57:36.503
which are now also not fully a monoculture,

890
00:57:36.534 --> 00:57:36.675
but...

891
00:57:37.989 --> 00:57:40.672
The main crop which I'm growing is the wheat.

892
00:57:41.433 --> 00:57:45.715
And I have to support the wheat with a little trace elements to maximize the photosynthesis.

893
00:57:45.957 --> 00:57:46.394
Of course,

894
00:57:46.395 --> 00:57:46.957
when it dries,

895
00:57:46.980 --> 00:57:48.402
I have an undersowing over it,

896
00:57:48.558 --> 00:57:49.160
underneath it,

897
00:57:50.644 --> 00:57:52.840
which also capture a little bit of the sunlight.

898
00:57:52.941 --> 00:57:58.183
But it's by far not as effective as a really nice polyculture.

899
00:57:58.965 --> 00:58:05.277
And I did trials in leaf sap analysis in cover crop mixture with 15,

900
00:58:05.793 --> 00:58:06.824
20 different plants.

901
00:58:07.189 --> 00:58:28.714
and what we saw there is the profile of the leaf sump analysis is perfect so what i learned is if you have a diverse crop growing together the nutrient uptake automatically works better okay it's very interesting also often in the cover crops you don't see any diseases or insect pests it's those plants are very healthy okay

902
00:58:28.745 --> 00:58:31.777
so those uh those analysis they now they they're

903
00:58:32.233 --> 00:58:36.138
Yet another tool to demonstrate that actually regenerative farming is better.

904
00:58:36.396 --> 00:58:37.459
It's better for plant health,

905
00:58:37.517 --> 00:58:39.041
for the health of the ecosystem,

906
00:58:39.042 --> 00:58:40.064
of the soil and all of that,

907
00:58:40.322 --> 00:58:40.642
basically.

908
00:58:41.424 --> 00:58:41.580
Yeah,

909
00:58:41.603 --> 00:58:47.752
it really helps to see how vital is your plant.

910
00:58:48.830 --> 00:58:50.908
It helps in the management practices

911
00:58:51.081 --> 00:58:52.181
with the fertilization.

912
00:58:53.281 --> 00:58:54.421
And like I said in the beginning,

913
00:58:54.482 --> 00:58:57.004
it's not as expensive as a soil analysis.

914
00:58:57.082 --> 00:59:03.066
And we often recommend the farmers to do the soil analysis maybe every four or five years,

915
00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:04.347
especially in Switzerland.

916
00:59:04.941 --> 00:59:12.379
You have fields which are one hectare and you don't want to spend each year 150 Swiss franc on a soil analysis.

917
00:59:12.472 --> 00:59:14.332
It's easier to spend every year

918
00:59:15.285 --> 00:59:20.394
30 Swiss franc on a leaf sap analysis and already get the feedback of all your management practice.

919
00:59:20.745 --> 00:59:25.449
And do you have to do that on different fields to check if you're growing different crops?

920
00:59:26.171 --> 00:59:32.535
I do it on the cash crops around three times a year to have the growing cycle.

921
00:59:32.855 --> 00:59:33.074
Okay.

922
00:59:33.761 --> 00:59:34.136
Yeah.

923
00:59:34.137 --> 00:59:37.027
So it's not a massive expense for you?

924
00:59:37.777 --> 00:59:37.902
No,

925
00:59:38.136 --> 00:59:38.589
not at all.

926
00:59:39.371 --> 00:59:45.386
And I work with apple farmers or vegetable farmers and they do it a bit more intense,

927
00:59:45.933 --> 00:59:48.105
but also their output is much higher.

928
00:59:48.480 --> 00:59:48.949
Stay Taí!

929
00:59:49.469 --> 00:59:51.472
if they have 90%

930
00:59:51.473 --> 00:59:53.534
of the apple in the best quality they want to have,

931
00:59:54.093 --> 00:59:57.456
it's a huge gain compared to only 70%

932
00:59:57.457 --> 00:59:57.878
or something.

933
00:59:58.479 --> 01:00:01.042
You said that you work with a company in the Netherlands.

934
01:00:01.057 --> 01:00:01.784
What was the name again?

935
01:00:02.378 --> 01:00:03.604
The name of the company is Nova

936
01:00:04.222 --> 01:00:04.886
Crop Control.

937
01:00:05.659 --> 01:00:09.815
And Nova Crop Control does for the whole world those leaf sub analyzers.

938
01:00:09.816 --> 01:00:10.675
For the whole world?

939
01:00:11.009 --> 01:00:12.790
They get analysis from Australia,

940
01:00:12.891 --> 01:00:13.812
from South America,

941
01:00:13.851 --> 01:00:14.472
from everywhere.

942
01:00:14.613 --> 01:00:16.616
Why not make labs doing that?

943
01:00:16.617 --> 01:00:18.495
If it's so popular and it's growing so fast,

944
01:00:18.538 --> 01:00:20.382
why not create labs everywhere,

945
01:00:20.383 --> 01:00:22.023
in every country or at least continent?

946
01:00:23.062 --> 01:00:29.632
I also asked this question to Nova Crop Control and the answer was they are a bit afraid that those measurements,

947
01:00:29.648 --> 01:00:32.773
if they set up a factory in South America,

948
01:00:34.116 --> 01:00:39.913
that suddenly if they all the time do the calibration of their...

949
01:00:40.649 --> 01:00:58.384
measurement units is done by a different person is done by a different protocol that suddenly they would get slightly different values okay then in the netherlands and then you get a mess up with the data that's one reason because you have to think about if they measure molybdenum it's

950
01:00:58.525 --> 01:01:08.322
like 0.5 parts per million so we are in a very narrow range what we have to measured it has to be super precise and if this suddenly shifts

951
01:01:08.743 --> 01:01:10.134
10 percent in order

952
01:01:10.773 --> 01:01:23.669
side of the world we suddenly get a bit different data there and what is special on NOVA Crop Control to compare to all other labs is that they take their data to define target values.

953
01:01:24.466 --> 01:01:27.997
All other measurements before they were done by trials.

954
01:01:28.184 --> 01:01:37.153
You had a very healthy plant compared to a plant which didn't get potassium enough and then they said this healthy plant that's the the ideal ratio of the potassium.

955
01:01:38.141 --> 01:01:40.684
And Nova Crop Control said we do a different approach.

956
01:01:40.764 --> 01:01:47.614
We test a thousand samples of a plant and let the algorithms decide where are the target values.

957
01:01:48.208 --> 01:01:54.356
And now they have millions of data sets and they adjust the target values according to the data.

958
01:01:54.794 --> 01:01:54.981
Okay,

959
01:01:55.012 --> 01:02:02.387
so actually it would be difficult for a competitor to start from scratch because they wouldn't have the same database and the same precision in the first place,

960
01:02:02.403 --> 01:02:02.637
right?

961
01:02:02.965 --> 01:02:03.153
Yeah,

962
01:02:04.090 --> 01:02:04.872
this as well.

963
01:02:05.193 --> 01:02:07.335
And I also think they are quite efficient.

964
01:02:07.696 --> 01:02:12.821
Like the whole process is so well designed that they really can get this good price.

965
01:02:14.044 --> 01:02:17.145
And when you showed me the bioreactor earlier,

966
01:02:17.184 --> 01:02:19.544
you also mentioned that you can make ferments.

967
01:02:20.989 --> 01:02:21.294
And I said,

968
01:02:21.309 --> 01:02:22.309
let's talk about this later.

969
01:02:22.825 --> 01:02:23.591
But actually,

970
01:02:23.653 --> 01:02:24.934
I don't even know what a ferment is.

971
01:02:24.935 --> 01:02:29.841
So maybe you could start from the basic level of what is a ferment and what do you mean here?

972
01:02:30.581 --> 01:02:30.721
Yeah,

973
01:02:30.722 --> 01:02:33.582
the ferment is kind of the opposite of the compost tea.

974
01:02:33.662 --> 01:02:38.383
So in the ferment we propagate microbiology without air.

975
01:02:38.781 --> 01:02:48.305
In compost tea we blow air in to have the aerobic microorganisms which need air to grow and by the ferments we have the anaerobic microbiology.

976
01:02:49.149 --> 01:02:57.242
And we use there kind of this preparation called effective microorganisms from Dr.

977
01:02:57.305 --> 01:02:58.649
Higo from Japan.

978
01:02:58.680 --> 01:02:59.633
He invented this.

979
01:03:00.009 --> 01:03:03.573
And it's a collection of three strains of microorganisms,

980
01:03:03.774 --> 01:03:05.114
lactic acid bacterias,

981
01:03:05.676 --> 01:03:10.258
some yeast and some photosynthetic bacterias.

982
01:03:11.141 --> 01:03:14.821
And he had quite a success with using it in the soil.

983
01:03:15.102 --> 01:03:20.828
We've reduced the odorous smells of the manure by the cows and so on.

984
01:03:22.016 --> 01:03:25.047
and we also saw that with this

985
01:03:25.485 --> 01:03:43.986
starter culture you can imagine like a starter culture to make your own vinegar or a yeast to start your beer it's all also fermentations so we can use those starter culture at the food sewers again like in the composting this time it's more sugar based with molasses and

986
01:03:44.111 --> 01:03:52.267
we let it ferment airtight with a bit of warmer water 30 degrees 35 degrees for a week and we have

987
01:03:52.701 --> 01:03:55.984
enormous propagation of those lacto acid bacterias.

988
01:03:56.666 --> 01:03:58.229
The pH goes to sour.

989
01:03:58.889 --> 01:04:00.768
It's also when you ferment vegetables,

990
01:04:00.791 --> 01:04:03.689
you get the sour taste because it's of the lower pH.

991
01:04:04.189 --> 01:04:06.314
It's kind of similar also to sauerkraut.

992
01:04:06.393 --> 01:04:07.994
It's also lactic acid bacterias.

993
01:04:08.697 --> 01:04:16.229
So we kind of have a product which is then stable for about half a year.

994
01:04:16.479 --> 01:04:18.213
You can keep it when it's produced.

995
01:04:19.357 --> 01:04:20.959
Like also when you ferment vegetables.

996
01:04:21.359 --> 01:04:24.885
And it's very to preserve organic matter.

997
01:04:25.545 --> 01:04:27.627
That it doesn't rot and get a bad smell.

998
01:04:28.205 --> 01:04:29.166
So how do you use it?

999
01:04:30.666 --> 01:04:34.595
Mainly on my farm I use it to treat the manure.

1000
01:04:35.431 --> 01:04:41.041
So the problem with the manure is in the building when the cow poops.

1001
01:04:43.540 --> 01:04:43.981
This poop,

1002
01:04:44.701 --> 01:04:47.726
the shit of the cow gets together with the urine,

1003
01:04:48.304 --> 01:04:50.026
you have these very bad reactions.

1004
01:04:50.726 --> 01:04:53.788
That methane is produced,

1005
01:04:53.890 --> 01:04:54.249
ammonia,

1006
01:04:55.108 --> 01:04:57.194
some toxic gases for the environment.

1007
01:04:57.897 --> 01:05:00.335
And imagine when a cow shits in the nature,

1008
01:05:01.397 --> 01:05:03.257
the shit ends on the ground,

1009
01:05:04.038 --> 01:05:04.382
above,

1010
01:05:05.054 --> 01:05:07.116
and the urine gets filtered into the soil.

1011
01:05:07.288 --> 01:05:08.569
So it's all the time separate.

1012
01:05:09.228 --> 01:05:09.869
But what we did,

1013
01:05:09.989 --> 01:05:13.891
we built a building for our animals and now it gets together into the manure.

1014
01:05:14.333 --> 01:05:15.575
And in the end,

1015
01:05:15.594 --> 01:05:18.880
the manure is a good organic fertilizer,

1016
01:05:19.380 --> 01:05:20.981
but it's in a rotting stage.

1017
01:05:21.059 --> 01:05:22.684
It has a bad smell.

1018
01:05:23.919 --> 01:05:28.669
It has some bad effects also on the microbiology.

1019
01:05:28.825 --> 01:05:30.012
If you over apply it,

1020
01:05:30.028 --> 01:05:32.169
you see the plants can get burned.

1021
01:05:32.950 --> 01:05:37.590
The earthworms even sometimes come out of the soil because it's like...

1022
01:05:38.708 --> 01:05:56.945
they think what the hell is this it's not something good for us and with the ferments we really can lower the ph in the manure and those lacto-acid bacteria start to work they start to digest organic material so the manure starts to be more liquid it

1023
01:05:57.179 --> 01:06:07.914
somehow starts to smell less we have less amniac production and we get a fertilizer which is much healthier for the soil so yeah

1024
01:06:08.244 --> 01:06:16.852
You just mix it all together with those ferments with your manure and that helps making it healthier basically and better for your system,

1025
01:06:16.876 --> 01:06:17.391
for your plants,

1026
01:06:17.454 --> 01:06:18.797
for everything.

1027
01:06:20.094 --> 01:06:27.368
We also see that if you collect organic material to make your compost before you start the composting process,

1028
01:06:27.446 --> 01:06:29.805
it often happens that you get those bad smells.

1029
01:06:29.946 --> 01:06:30.602
You have those.

1030
01:06:31.917 --> 01:06:56.345
mold fungi growing over it and you really feel other nutrients going into the air you smell it with the bad gases and when you add there the this affected microorganisms this ferment it helps to do have the same effect a bit like in the sauerkraut in the fermentation process we add those lactic acid bacterias and we preserve the nutrients before they are composted okay

1031
01:06:56.608 --> 01:06:59.131
And everywhere where you have those bad smells,

1032
01:06:59.191 --> 01:07:02.574
have a bit over-application of nutrients,

1033
01:07:02.894 --> 01:07:03.394
it helps.

1034
01:07:03.855 --> 01:07:08.261
And we also saw in regenerative farming practices different uses.

1035
01:07:09.019 --> 01:07:10.558
Sometimes you have compacted soils,

1036
01:07:10.722 --> 01:07:12.402
so you work with a subsoiler.

1037
01:07:12.597 --> 01:07:14.863
You go maybe to 30 centimeters deep,

1038
01:07:15.129 --> 01:07:21.894
only lift a little the soil to get some little scratches into the soil that the roots can grow into it.

1039
01:07:22.050 --> 01:07:25.769
So we suddenly bring in an aerobic soil air.

1040
01:07:26.672 --> 01:07:27.913
And suddenly with the air,

1041
01:07:28.534 --> 01:07:32.259
nutrients could be released which are not taken up yet by the plant.

1042
01:07:32.657 --> 01:07:36.805
So if we spray there also the ferments into those deeper layers,

1043
01:07:36.923 --> 01:07:38.766
we can control the environment.

1044
01:07:39.743 --> 01:07:43.876
Same as when you take the mulcher and work in the cover crops.

1045
01:07:44.970 --> 01:07:53.173
A lot of nutrients are suddenly released because you make this very fine cutted plant material.

1046
01:07:54.001 --> 01:07:55.688
And also there if you have a lot of

1047
01:07:56.296 --> 01:08:12.591
dense cover crops it can happen that this just gets very bad and starts to rot and you have bad smells again and if you have those bad smells you won't have a good root growth they don't like those rotting

1048
01:08:12.716 --> 01:08:25.747
stages they want to have those preserved nutrients like in a sauerkraut being a regenerative farmer is like being a scientist in many ways right you have to understand a lot of

1049
01:08:26.620 --> 01:08:42.258
different concepts a lot of complicated scientific concepts if you really want to do things well yeah and i'm also working as a teacher in regenerative switzerland and it's it's really when we do our courses they go one year four

1050
01:08:42.336 --> 01:08:53.953
times one day on a on a farm and around eight times in the evening with online courses and that's our feedback what we get like i'm overwhelmed with all those informations.

1051
01:08:54.453 --> 01:08:55.984
But what we also realized is

1052
01:08:56.488 --> 01:09:01.173
You cannot just simply change one thing on the farm and everything works.

1053
01:09:01.251 --> 01:09:04.376
Like if you suddenly change from tillage to non-tillage.

1054
01:09:05.177 --> 01:09:07.997
But you don't bring your nutrients into the balance.

1055
01:09:07.998 --> 01:09:09.638
You don't help the root growth.

1056
01:09:09.685 --> 01:09:12.857
You don't correct the fertilizing management.

1057
01:09:13.529 --> 01:09:14.279
You maybe fail.

1058
01:09:15.154 --> 01:09:16.310
And if you start then again,

1059
01:09:16.607 --> 01:09:17.107
we don't know.

1060
01:09:17.294 --> 01:09:21.138
So I think that's the hardest part in the whole transition.

1061
01:09:22.201 --> 01:09:25.310
To really present all those informations.

1062
01:09:26.176 --> 01:09:43.350
that the farmers get everything how to work with it yeah and i admit it's complicated that's why we are there to help that's why there are also companies produce those products finished you don't have to do it by yourself but i see in my farm that

1063
01:09:43.420 --> 01:09:44.001
Transition,

1064
01:09:44.141 --> 01:09:45.824
it costs money and everything,

1065
01:09:47.027 --> 01:09:48.548
especially for me as a small farmer,

1066
01:09:48.611 --> 01:09:49.611
I can do by myself,

1067
01:09:50.130 --> 01:09:51.193
helps me to save money.

1068
01:09:52.017 --> 01:09:54.759
And this helps me to go faster in the transition process.

1069
01:09:54.939 --> 01:09:55.337
Yeah,

1070
01:09:56.259 --> 01:10:00.916
it would make sense to have more agronomists there to help farmers who can be also the,

1071
01:10:01.009 --> 01:10:01.244
you know,

1072
01:10:02.431 --> 01:10:02.556
the...

1073
01:10:03.084 --> 01:10:10.771
The person who spends time learning all of that scientific information and helps the farmer make the right decisions,

1074
01:10:11.056 --> 01:10:14.673
rather than the farmer themselves having to do all of that by themselves,

1075
01:10:15.157 --> 01:10:16.861
being very busy already on the fields and stuff.

1076
01:10:17.837 --> 01:10:18.915
It definitely would help.

1077
01:10:19.025 --> 01:10:24.025
I think most of the time the problem is that the advisors which go on the farms,

1078
01:10:24.040 --> 01:10:24.978
they sell products.

1079
01:10:25.431 --> 01:10:26.384
That's how they are paid.

1080
01:10:27.243 --> 01:10:27.962
And of course,

1081
01:10:28.196 --> 01:10:29.650
they have different interests.

1082
01:10:29.728 --> 01:10:31.696
So we really need more

1083
01:10:31.968 --> 01:10:47.989
neutral advisors which support the farmers but we also have to teach the farmers to learn to observe this is very important they need to dig out the roots look at the soil that

1084
01:10:48.067 --> 01:11:00.489
i see now i did this management practice this happened because each farm is individual and as an advisor it's very hard you you get to the farm and you have to help immediately but you don't

1085
01:11:00.656 --> 01:11:15.991
get the whole picture of the farm immediately so the best is if the farmers really get this eye for those details and see ah now i have little plants and and then i think also the passion comes because you start to work with nature again yeah

1086
01:11:16.866 --> 01:11:28.991
you you give courses you give classes is there any resource available online that farmers can find to to learn more about this i mean most of it is really on the platform regenerative.ch

1087
01:11:29.848 --> 01:11:45.711
um which i just help as a as an expert you find some youtube videos but i'm not really those specialized in social media content making a lot of youtube videos and everything uh yeah other

1088
01:11:46.039 --> 01:11:57.899
resources you would recommend podcasts books yeah of course i already mentioned john kemp as a great source of information also i'm a bit on the path like

1089
01:11:58.068 --> 01:12:00.231
Graham said in Australia.

1090
01:12:00.791 --> 01:12:02.594
He has the same principle.

1091
01:12:04.996 --> 01:12:08.399
I liked of course Elaine Ingham with the whole soil food web.

1092
01:12:11.305 --> 01:12:17.039
I read right now the book super low cost natural farming,

1093
01:12:17.164 --> 01:12:18.430
Korean natural farming.

1094
01:12:18.961 --> 01:12:24.149
It's a whole new setup of like 20 different bioferments.

1095
01:12:24.976 --> 01:12:28.520
And I think you really have to find a bit of Facebook groups you like.

1096
01:12:28.699 --> 01:12:30.781
I'm in a Facebook group which is called

1097
01:12:31.121 --> 01:12:38.445
Bioferments and has very good content all the time about how to design your own fertilizers,

1098
01:12:38.867 --> 01:12:39.914
leaf fertilizers,

1099
01:12:39.953 --> 01:12:41.289
how you deal with different problems.

1100
01:12:41.867 --> 01:12:42.070
Okay,

1101
01:12:42.680 --> 01:12:42.836
yeah.

1102
01:12:43.367 --> 01:12:45.352
Thank you so much for your time,

1103
01:12:45.461 --> 01:12:46.258
for your expertise.

1104
01:12:46.273 --> 01:12:47.039
I really appreciate it.

1105
01:12:47.055 --> 01:12:47.414
Yeah,

1106
01:12:47.492 --> 01:12:47.773
thank you.

1107
01:12:48.180 --> 01:12:48.320
Yeah,

1108
01:12:48.477 --> 01:12:52.836
thank you for doing this interview that the farmers have the chance to also listen to all my ideas.

1109
01:12:53.039 --> 01:12:53.398
I I

1110
01:12:53.904 --> 01:12:54.827
Implement on the farm,

1111
01:12:54.867 --> 01:12:55.409
yeah.