WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.228 --> 00:00:02.229 So we can see there are benefits to biodiversity. 2 00:00:02.749 --> 00:00:04.369 There are clear benefits to soil function. 3 00:00:04.889 --> 00:00:08.710 The amount of carbon that's stored in water-stable aggregates is one of the things we're measuring, 4 00:00:08.750 --> 00:00:11.151 and that increases with the regenerative practices, 5 00:00:11.191 --> 00:00:12.671 especially sensitive to tillage. 6 00:00:13.372 --> 00:00:14.652 We have better worm density, 7 00:00:14.712 --> 00:00:15.732 so earthworms in the soil, 8 00:00:15.772 --> 00:00:17.713 which are important aspects of soil health. 9 00:00:27.135 --> 00:00:29.436 You're working on a research project called... 10 00:00:29.936 --> 00:00:30.056 H3, 11 00:00:30.057 --> 00:00:30.877 is that right? 12 00:00:30.878 --> 00:00:31.117 Yes, 13 00:00:31.257 --> 00:00:31.498 I am. 14 00:00:31.718 --> 00:00:35.141 So a research project on regenerative farming in England. 15 00:00:35.501 --> 00:00:36.602 So that's my part of it. 16 00:00:36.603 --> 00:00:37.503 It's a broader project. 17 00:00:37.543 --> 00:00:40.706 It's part of a program called Transforming UK Food Systems. 18 00:00:41.226 --> 00:00:42.127 And the H3, 19 00:00:42.487 --> 00:00:43.788 it's called because it's healthy soil, 20 00:00:43.848 --> 00:00:44.409 healthy food, 21 00:00:44.469 --> 00:00:45.109 healthy people. 22 00:00:45.450 --> 00:00:45.570 Yeah. 23 00:00:45.890 --> 00:00:47.932 It's funded by the UK Research and Innovation, 24 00:00:48.032 --> 00:00:48.652 UKRI. 25 00:00:49.453 --> 00:00:50.294 It's part of a big program. 26 00:00:50.634 --> 00:00:57.120 So the program is wonderful in many ways because it was pushing researchers to look at the whole food system. 27 00:00:57.440 --> 00:00:58.660 not just the production side, 28 00:00:58.680 --> 00:01:00.581 which is the part that I work on, 29 00:01:00.601 --> 00:01:09.203 but also the system of going from harvesting to processing to supply to consumption and then into healthy diets. 30 00:01:09.763 --> 00:01:14.905 So the H3 project also is working on getting more fibre into school meals, 31 00:01:14.925 --> 00:01:15.505 for example, 32 00:01:16.625 --> 00:01:20.786 and on different ways to produce around city edges that would be taking up less land. 33 00:01:20.946 --> 00:01:26.808 But our role in that project is to work on what's called regenerative agriculture. 34 00:01:28.028 --> 00:01:33.050 And the reason we're working on it is because in my group, 35 00:01:33.130 --> 00:01:34.831 I run an agroecology research group, 36 00:01:34.891 --> 00:01:40.993 and what we're looking for is the solutions that are emerging anyway from the farming communities around the world. 37 00:01:41.034 --> 00:01:45.175 And we want to just evaluate them and find out whether there's often solutions being put forward, 38 00:01:45.435 --> 00:01:51.518 more sustainable farming systems that come with a lot of storytelling around them about how brilliant they are. 39 00:01:51.838 --> 00:01:56.740 Often from individual farmer experiences who've tried it and they've really loved it and it's worked really well for them. 40 00:01:57.272 --> 00:01:58.713 And this gets translated into kind of, 41 00:02:00.114 --> 00:02:00.814 what's the right word? 42 00:02:01.895 --> 00:02:02.836 I don't know what the word is. 43 00:02:02.936 --> 00:02:03.656 A narrative, 44 00:02:03.736 --> 00:02:04.217 I suppose, 45 00:02:04.237 --> 00:02:05.337 that is very positive. 46 00:02:05.498 --> 00:02:06.778 And that's how you drive change. 47 00:02:07.139 --> 00:02:07.259 So 48 00:02:07.839 --> 00:02:09.460 I'm really pleased that that's going on. 49 00:02:09.461 --> 00:02:11.261 And we have to do that. 50 00:02:11.281 --> 00:02:16.465 We have to have a narrative that drives a really big transition if we're going to save the nature we have left. 51 00:02:17.466 --> 00:02:20.588 But I do want to check as a scientist that those stories are right, 52 00:02:21.949 --> 00:02:24.871 that I'm looking for the farming systems that do actually deliver on the promise. 53 00:02:24.891 --> 00:02:26.652 And regenerative agriculture is one of those. 54 00:02:27.316 --> 00:02:29.857 It's something that's emerged from the farming community. 55 00:02:30.037 --> 00:02:52.183 There are some wonderful farmers who are brilliant at promoting it and sharing the knowledge and telling the story about how much better it is and how they've moved from degrading their soils to regenerating their soils and they've got just as good food production and they've got loads more wildlife and they're much happier as a result and everything's fantastic and their business is doing better. 56 00:02:52.283 --> 00:02:53.183 This is the story they tell. 57 00:02:53.923 --> 00:02:56.124 So we have set up a study. 58 00:02:57.344 --> 00:03:02.367 We work with farmer clusters because we're working on a farmer-led system change. 59 00:03:02.967 --> 00:03:04.608 We're working in communities of farmers, 60 00:03:04.688 --> 00:03:07.249 some of whom are already doing that and some of whom are not. 61 00:03:07.889 --> 00:03:11.931 And we wanted to set up a co-designed experiment with those groups of farmers. 62 00:03:12.491 --> 00:03:19.094 So we did do that and we have a group of farmers who are regeneratively farming for at least three years. 63 00:03:19.815 --> 00:03:20.935 And we've got a group who are not. 64 00:03:21.315 --> 00:03:22.436 and we've got a group in each... 65 00:03:23.024 --> 00:03:46.744 cluster of farmers so two different landscapes we've got a group who are transitioning from not doing regenerative farming to doing it during the course of our study and we've been doing loads of survey work looking at the effect of that on on soil health on biodiversity on on crop production we've also been measuring their their management in quite a lot of detail like what what do they actually do with the crops which crops do they plant how do they manage the soil what 66 00:03:46.784 --> 00:03:51.348 inputs do they put in fertilizers and insecticides and herbicides so we've got loads of data 67 00:03:52.396 --> 00:03:57.600 We're four years into this project and it's been a fantastic experience working with the farmers. 68 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:08.867 Regenerative farming is quite difficult to define and that's one of the issues for incentivising it in policy is that it's a little bit difficult to define because people say, 69 00:04:08.887 --> 00:04:09.007 well, 70 00:04:09.008 --> 00:04:09.968 it's just about soil health. 71 00:04:10.828 --> 00:04:15.271 And soil health is at the centre and you start working with your soil to make it more healthy. 72 00:04:15.311 --> 00:04:16.312 And there's some practices. 73 00:04:16.512 --> 00:04:17.773 but people do it slightly differently. 74 00:04:17.853 --> 00:04:19.774 So there's some principles that everyone agrees to, 75 00:04:19.854 --> 00:04:22.456 which are things like keeping the soil covered, 76 00:04:23.156 --> 00:04:24.477 minimising disturbance, 77 00:04:24.798 --> 00:04:26.939 having more different diversity of crops. 78 00:04:27.960 --> 00:04:30.261 And so keep this, 79 00:04:30.341 --> 00:04:31.082 I can't remember though, 80 00:04:31.142 --> 00:04:33.003 living roots is one of the principles. 81 00:04:33.004 --> 00:04:34.724 So you always have roots alive under the soil. 82 00:04:35.605 --> 00:04:41.769 So you have these principles and different farmers do different things and interpret them in different ways. 83 00:04:41.889 --> 00:04:43.490 And this is why it's quite hard to define. 84 00:04:44.611 --> 00:04:45.392 So in the process of... 85 00:04:46.700 --> 00:04:48.703 doing our experimental study, 86 00:04:49.745 --> 00:04:51.087 one thing that we found early on, 87 00:04:51.107 --> 00:04:53.410 because we got all the data on what the farmers were actually doing, 88 00:04:54.231 --> 00:04:58.498 is that they don't fall neatly into these groups of control farmers and regenerative farmers. 89 00:04:58.958 --> 00:04:59.239 In fact, 90 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:00.000 every single farmer in the 91 00:05:00.100 --> 00:05:01.061 Farm is quite unique. 92 00:05:01.081 --> 00:05:05.706 If you look at the practices that we've identified that reflect regenerative farming, 93 00:05:07.468 --> 00:05:09.651 none of the regenerative farmers are doing all of those things, 94 00:05:10.412 --> 00:05:12.995 and none of the control farmers are doing none of those things, 95 00:05:13.475 --> 00:05:17.820 and every single farm is doing its own separate set of those things in different intensities. 96 00:05:18.100 --> 00:05:21.044 So we ended up producing what we call a regenerative score. 97 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:29.626 Which kind of quantifies the consistency with which you've been following these five principles based on the practices you have over the last five years. 98 00:05:29.627 --> 00:05:34.190 So you have a rolling five year average and it changes according to what you've done in the five years previously. 99 00:05:34.671 --> 00:05:35.811 And that works really well. 100 00:05:35.852 --> 00:05:36.892 That allows us to see, 101 00:05:37.373 --> 00:05:37.753 first of all, 102 00:05:37.754 --> 00:05:39.314 we have this really nice gradient. 103 00:05:39.315 --> 00:05:41.016 We don't have three clean groups, 104 00:05:41.056 --> 00:05:44.739 but we have this gradient of regenerativeness in both of our landscapes. 105 00:05:45.159 --> 00:05:50.784 and then we can see what the effects of that combined system change are on... 106 00:05:51.928 --> 00:05:52.728 All the things we're measuring. 107 00:05:53.129 --> 00:05:55.149 So we can see there are benefits to biodiversity. 108 00:05:55.670 --> 00:05:57.290 There are clear benefits to soil function. 109 00:05:57.811 --> 00:06:04.073 The amount of carbon that's stored in water stable aggregates is one of the things we're measuring and that increases with the regenerative practices, 110 00:06:04.113 --> 00:06:05.594 especially sensitive to tillage. 111 00:06:06.294 --> 00:06:07.555 We have better worm density, 112 00:06:07.635 --> 00:06:08.655 so earthworms in the soil, 113 00:06:08.675 --> 00:06:10.636 which are important aspects of soil health. 114 00:06:11.276 --> 00:06:14.838 We have more spiders and better pollination. 115 00:06:14.938 --> 00:06:17.139 We've measured the pollination in the hedgerow plants, 116 00:06:17.159 --> 00:06:18.679 which is what's producing the berries, 117 00:06:18.719 --> 00:06:19.280 for example, 118 00:06:19.440 --> 00:06:20.060 in hawthorn. 119 00:06:21.300 --> 00:06:22.561 But not everything changes. 120 00:06:23.081 --> 00:06:24.842 Some of the aspects of biodiversity we've measured, 121 00:06:25.122 --> 00:06:26.082 numbers of pollinators, 122 00:06:26.142 --> 00:06:26.522 strangely, 123 00:06:26.963 --> 00:06:27.883 doesn't clearly change. 124 00:06:28.023 --> 00:06:29.464 Numbers of beetles doesn't change, 125 00:06:29.484 --> 00:06:31.565 although spiders and wasps do increase. 126 00:06:32.085 --> 00:06:33.465 So it's a slightly complex picture. 127 00:06:33.466 --> 00:06:35.286 It's slightly different in the different landscapes, 128 00:06:36.006 --> 00:06:39.268 but there are definitely benefits of the regenerative transition. 129 00:06:39.968 --> 00:06:48.732 And what we value ourselves about the way we go about this research is that we're not measuring it in a kind of experimental trial setting. 130 00:06:49.096 --> 00:06:50.177 These are real farms. 131 00:06:50.297 --> 00:06:53.520 This is how it's really happening in real farms that are commercial businesses. 132 00:06:53.900 --> 00:06:56.562 That makes the experiment quite hard to do as a scientist, 133 00:06:57.303 --> 00:06:58.364 but for me much more valuable. 134 00:06:58.684 --> 00:07:02.707 Because if you want to know whether a system change is effective, 135 00:07:03.328 --> 00:07:06.370 what you need to know is how it's actually manifesting in the real world. 136 00:07:06.911 --> 00:07:08.452 So that's the kind of research we try and do. 137 00:07:08.912 --> 00:07:09.873 And it's a positive story. 138 00:07:10.493 --> 00:07:10.754 It is. 139 00:07:11.294 --> 00:07:12.215 Loads to talk about here. 140 00:07:14.417 --> 00:07:18.460 You already mentioned as a negative that pollinators don't seem to increase. 141 00:07:18.580 --> 00:07:35.153 that's yeah i may hear that i'm curious to understand better why do you think that is so we we don't know is the answer so actually we do we do have an idea why we think it is it's um it might there there might be some increases in some times of the year we actually what we think is that in the 142 00:07:35.974 --> 00:07:47.804 there's a there's a more important effect on the pollinator communities which is the uh agri-environment scheme practices the small habitats that the farmers have and the surrounding habitats in the range of a pollinator are 143 00:07:48.504 --> 00:08:06.658 probably more important than what's actually going on in the field so the system isn't changing those and so we can't see what there's an overriding effect of of landscape structure and habitat availability which which is well known for pollinators but we wanted to see whether the the regenerative farming system also had a had a signal and 144 00:08:06.838 --> 00:08:14.384 but the the really vexing thing is that the pollination of hawthorn in the hedgerows is better in the regenerative farms and we suspect that that's 145 00:08:14.764 --> 00:08:15.884 It's fruit set we measured. 146 00:08:15.904 --> 00:08:17.725 We didn't measure the actual delivery of pollen. 147 00:08:17.726 --> 00:08:18.786 We just measured fruit set. 148 00:08:18.826 --> 00:08:19.986 So we just think that the soil, 149 00:08:20.446 --> 00:08:23.788 there might be a link between a better soil and better fruit set. 150 00:08:23.808 --> 00:08:26.609 And it's that the fruit set is not limited by pollination in these systems. 151 00:08:26.949 --> 00:08:27.109 Right. 152 00:08:27.110 --> 00:08:28.610 So that because the soil is healthier, 153 00:08:29.990 --> 00:08:31.931 the fruit in the hedgerows are also healthier. 154 00:08:31.951 --> 00:08:32.811 That's a proposal. 155 00:08:33.032 --> 00:08:33.612 That's a proposal, 156 00:08:33.672 --> 00:08:33.872 yeah. 157 00:08:33.873 --> 00:08:35.513 We don't have any way of knowing that. 158 00:08:35.514 --> 00:08:36.413 Logically makes sense. 159 00:08:36.613 --> 00:08:37.974 We'll wait to find out. 160 00:08:37.994 --> 00:08:38.194 Yeah. 161 00:08:42.515 --> 00:08:43.216 What about something, 162 00:08:43.217 --> 00:08:43.616 you know, 163 00:08:44.016 --> 00:09:00.623 very positive something that you you measured and that really impressed you let's say um so i think that my experience the most positive thing for me is just it's just the the commitment and the the um openness of the farmers we're working with not 164 00:09:00.643 --> 00:09:11.008 just to work with researchers but to talk to each other i think there's been a real change and and partly it was driven by uh it's i don't like saying this because i was not a 165 00:09:11.528 --> 00:09:28.093 fan of Brexit when we decided to leave the European Union but one thing that is possibly good that is could come out of it is that we changed the way we that we changed our agricultural policy very dramatically and and we moved from and we have we have just fully moved from supporting 166 00:09:28.133 --> 00:09:38.236 farmers just for farming to supporting farmers financially for the public goods that they deliver many of which are environmental public goods and and at the time when we set up this project and 167 00:09:38.456 --> 00:09:56.336 began to run it and so there's been a seven year transition from being supported just for farming to not which which which was laid out in the agriculture act in the uk and uh that that got farmers working together and thinking about how they might do things differently and note and thinking about natural capital and and just 168 00:09:56.476 --> 00:09:59.1000 you know if we if we're being if we're only going to be subsidized or paid by 169 00:10:00.108 --> 00:10:15.955 government to deliver environmental public goods we're going to do that and they'll be really good at that so i've been really enjoyed watching the the transition and i'm also really impressed by the the drive and the enthusiasm of the regenerative farmers they tend to be uh people 170 00:10:15.956 --> 00:10:28.140 who are slightly younger more more uh sometimes new to farming or they're coming into farming from having had a career in something else and they just bring a a new way of thinking i think agriculture has it's it 171 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:39.990 It has been in the UK somewhat locked in a sort of old system of doing things that was very successful for a long time and is looking less successful now because it's degraded the environment so much. 172 00:10:41.070 --> 00:10:48.296 And I just think there's been a loss of knowledge and a loss of enthusiasm and a lot of people have left farming for reasons that come from the wider food system actually. 173 00:10:48.957 --> 00:10:51.139 So as a kind of a culture of its own, 174 00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:53.801 it was probably, 175 00:10:53.861 --> 00:10:54.221 I would say, 176 00:10:54.661 --> 00:10:55.262 quite degraded. 177 00:10:55.442 --> 00:10:56.583 I don't want to upset people. 178 00:10:59.881 --> 00:11:01.542 I think some new energy is great. 179 00:11:01.982 --> 00:11:04.563 And that's what I see in the regenerative farming movement. 180 00:11:04.583 --> 00:11:06.084 Not everyone's on side, 181 00:11:06.124 --> 00:11:13.268 but I also see that some aspects of it are through rose-tinted glasses, 182 00:11:13.308 --> 00:11:13.668 I think. 183 00:11:14.109 --> 00:11:14.869 Farming is difficult. 184 00:11:15.069 --> 00:11:16.510 Farming is really challenging, 185 00:11:16.511 --> 00:11:18.111 and increasingly so with climate change. 186 00:11:19.071 --> 00:11:20.792 To make a profit is tough. 187 00:11:21.953 --> 00:11:24.294 And so farmers are an amazing, 188 00:11:24.634 --> 00:11:25.995 they're a very varied group of people, 189 00:11:25.996 --> 00:11:27.556 but they're also an amazing group of people. 190 00:11:27.852 --> 00:11:53.223 to work with because they're so kind of they're all running their own independent systems and things and they'll they'll they're they're very innovative they're very ingenious and they can fix and sort and they'll just do it because because they are just the farmer out there on their own so i don't know if you've ever had a had a breakdown or some kind of hideous fall in the ditch in a car or something but it's usually a farmer that comes out and helps you right there's always a farmer around and they've always got the kit to 191 00:11:53.643 --> 00:11:56.084 to pull your vehicle out the ditch or save you from... 192 00:11:56.712 --> 00:11:58.454 some kind of horrible situation. 193 00:11:58.834 --> 00:12:01.116 And that's the sort of people they are. 194 00:12:01.176 --> 00:12:04.019 They're just fixers and doers and wonderful people to work with. 195 00:12:04.020 --> 00:12:05.821 And I love that about farming. 196 00:12:06.041 --> 00:12:07.762 Yeah. 197 00:12:07.763 --> 00:12:12.707 I'm curious to learn a little bit more about these new farming policies that you mentioned since 198 00:12:13.488 --> 00:12:18.032 Brexit, because a lot of our audience is in the European Union. 199 00:12:18.888 --> 00:12:23.971 And we have the next cap budget that is being negotiated and discussed at the moment. 200 00:12:23.991 --> 00:12:27.753 And maybe we could learn a lesson or two from what you're doing here in the UK. 201 00:12:28.373 --> 00:12:28.893 I hope so. 202 00:12:29.374 --> 00:12:29.534 Yeah, 203 00:12:30.074 --> 00:12:30.614 I think you could. 204 00:12:30.615 --> 00:12:36.157 So one of the things we've done is scale up the payments to a larger scale. 205 00:12:36.378 --> 00:12:38.639 This is one of the reasons why farmers have started working together. 206 00:12:38.659 --> 00:12:40.220 So we split the payments. 207 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:40.840 We've got all the, 208 00:12:41.740 --> 00:12:45.502 it was originally all the budget from what we were spending on the cap. 209 00:12:46.283 --> 00:12:48.104 I don't know the numbers of where it's got to. 210 00:12:48.492 --> 00:12:50.593 But we split it into sort of three ways. 211 00:12:50.693 --> 00:12:53.115 One was called the Sustainable Farming Incentive, 212 00:12:53.555 --> 00:12:55.416 and that's a lower level thing. 213 00:12:55.616 --> 00:12:56.437 I should say at this point, 214 00:12:56.457 --> 00:12:59.138 it hasn't been entirely perfect the way it's, 215 00:12:59.199 --> 00:13:01.060 because it's quite a difficult transition to make. 216 00:13:01.400 --> 00:13:05.762 And we've had a change of government and yeah. 217 00:13:05.963 --> 00:13:08.304 Agricultural policy is challenging and farmers, 218 00:13:08.524 --> 00:13:10.505 especially when their businesses are quite dependent on it, 219 00:13:10.625 --> 00:13:13.867 they have quite a tough time with the regulators and the policymakers here. 220 00:13:15.488 --> 00:13:23.996 But the big picture is we split it into three where you have the sustainable farming incentive is a smaller scale sort of in-field measures that individual farmers can take and be paid for. 221 00:13:24.456 --> 00:13:30.001 And that's so things like things you would do to look after your soil health and field margins with flowers on, 222 00:13:30.041 --> 00:13:30.542 for example, 223 00:13:30.543 --> 00:13:31.543 that we might talk about later. 224 00:13:31.903 --> 00:13:34.605 They're involved in the sustainable farming incentive. 225 00:13:34.825 --> 00:13:37.608 There's also one that's about not using any insecticides. 226 00:13:38.584 --> 00:13:40.365 And then there's a countryside stewardship, 227 00:13:40.385 --> 00:13:45.487 which tends to be a bit larger scale and is targeted to places where there's already good biodiversity. 228 00:13:45.967 --> 00:13:48.068 And then there's this thing called landscape recovery projects, 229 00:13:48.108 --> 00:13:49.028 and they are larger. 230 00:13:49.569 --> 00:13:53.070 And you need to have a group of stakeholders from including, 231 00:13:53.150 --> 00:13:54.090 often including farmers, 232 00:13:54.091 --> 00:13:54.711 but not always, 233 00:13:55.431 --> 00:13:56.311 the landscape scale. 234 00:13:56.312 --> 00:13:59.833 And it's about kind of restoring nature and natural capital at much bigger scale. 235 00:13:59.873 --> 00:14:00.933 So some of the money went to that. 236 00:14:00.934 --> 00:14:01.834 And that's really, 237 00:14:02.434 --> 00:14:04.795 so there's the combination of the splitting. 238 00:14:04.815 --> 00:14:05.835 So you've got large scale, 239 00:14:06.315 --> 00:14:07.396 mid scale and small scale. 240 00:14:07.904 --> 00:14:11.205 And then we also have a biodiversity net gain policy, 241 00:14:12.086 --> 00:14:19.489 which provides developers have to demonstrate that they've offset any biodiversity loss. 242 00:14:19.490 --> 00:14:24.831 There's a scoring system called the biodiversity metric and the biodiversity net gain metric. 243 00:14:24.832 --> 00:14:25.311 And you have to, 244 00:14:25.752 --> 00:14:28.333 when you build like a housing development or something, 245 00:14:28.334 --> 00:14:34.135 you have to calculate how much biodiversity you've destroyed and you have to offset and add a 10% 246 00:14:34.235 --> 00:14:34.936 gain onto that. 247 00:14:35.596 --> 00:14:35.896 So that 248 00:14:36.176 --> 00:14:57.156 creates an income stream for for farmers for example or any landowners who are actually restoring nature and a lot of the farming communities were thinking about how they could benefit from that because they have natural capital and nature on their land so they they for them it's a different income stream so there's a diversification that happened as well all 249 00:14:57.157 --> 00:15:01.460 of which is playing out not perfectly it never is I think that's going to... 250 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:04.701 And it's changing all the time, 251 00:15:04.841 --> 00:15:05.902 as policy often does. 252 00:15:06.462 --> 00:15:06.582 Yeah, 253 00:15:06.762 --> 00:15:08.723 yeah. 254 00:15:08.724 --> 00:15:11.865 One of the things you mentioned here is the landscape scale approach. 255 00:15:12.465 --> 00:15:13.706 I think I'd love to discuss. 256 00:15:13.926 --> 00:15:14.126 Okay. 257 00:15:15.067 --> 00:15:16.928 Why is it interesting to sometimes... 258 00:15:17.841 --> 00:15:26.928 look at the whole landscape or a bioregion or a watershed to act on nature conservation or on regenerative agriculture and things like that, 259 00:15:27.288 --> 00:15:29.749 rather than just on the single farm scale. 260 00:15:31.711 --> 00:15:35.634 I think that's a really good change in the way we view nature conservation in this country. 261 00:15:35.874 --> 00:15:36.654 Why is it important? 262 00:15:37.015 --> 00:15:39.496 So one thing to say is that even the smallest animals, 263 00:15:39.616 --> 00:15:41.218 so take a wild bee, 264 00:15:41.318 --> 00:15:41.918 for example, 265 00:15:42.358 --> 00:15:43.379 especially if it's a bumblebee, 266 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:45.981 its life is not a single field. 267 00:15:46.521 --> 00:15:49.403 It's operating on a sort of one kilometre kind of scale. 268 00:15:49.964 --> 00:15:50.684 It has a colony. 269 00:15:50.824 --> 00:15:52.706 It's foraging around that colony, 270 00:15:53.246 --> 00:15:56.308 500 metres to a kilometre in every direction as a colony, 271 00:15:56.428 --> 00:15:56.989 all the workers. 272 00:15:57.349 --> 00:16:01.492 So what matters to those animals is not what's happening in this field, 273 00:16:01.952 --> 00:16:03.333 but what's happening on that larger scale. 274 00:16:03.553 --> 00:16:08.957 Can they actually get all the flowers resources that they need at the time when they need it? 275 00:16:09.277 --> 00:16:09.738 Is it there? 276 00:16:10.098 --> 00:16:11.759 And it's a bigger scale thing. 277 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:14.281 And the same with kind of if you're... 278 00:16:14.661 --> 00:16:34.767 caring about the natural habitats in a landscape you need to make sure that they're connected in some way or close enough to other patches of natural habitat to allow some natural dispersal to allow animals and plants to move through the landscape between or if you've got if you're if you're caring about migratory birds for instance they actually have to fly across what 279 00:16:34.827 --> 00:16:42.169 i would call hostile landscape in order to move between the patches of good so the landscape scale is really important in conservation Thank you. 280 00:16:42.313 --> 00:16:46.055 And the exact scale depends on the animals or plants you care about. 281 00:16:46.695 --> 00:16:50.897 But there are more that need bigger than farm scale, 282 00:16:51.097 --> 00:16:51.457 I think, 283 00:16:51.517 --> 00:16:52.958 than that need just within farm. 284 00:16:54.178 --> 00:16:54.918 That may not be true, 285 00:16:54.938 --> 00:16:55.999 but I bet it is. 286 00:16:57.479 --> 00:17:01.121 Do you have any specific examples to use to illustrate all of this? 287 00:17:01.122 --> 00:17:02.101 Because I'm wondering how, 288 00:17:02.181 --> 00:17:02.602 first of all, 289 00:17:02.662 --> 00:17:05.003 how do you decide which landscape to work on? 290 00:17:05.323 --> 00:17:08.244 How do you get the different stakeholders within that landscape to collaborate? 291 00:17:08.245 --> 00:17:09.224 How do you finance that? 292 00:17:10.125 --> 00:17:10.565 Do you have any? 293 00:17:10.973 --> 00:17:29.184 examples well so so one thing that i've i think is really good about the landscape recovery projects is that they're they're bottom up they there is there's some uh selection of the ones that that win that get the funding and the funding in this case is coming from the government um 294 00:17:29.585 --> 00:17:36.169 but they they're organized on the ground by people in landscapes who care about the landscape and that's how for me 295 00:17:36.917 --> 00:17:41.200 Nature conservation is never going to work unless it's actually being done by the people who live there, 296 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:43.461 valuing the nature that's around them. 297 00:17:44.522 --> 00:17:44.882 Otherwise, 298 00:17:45.302 --> 00:17:46.603 if it's someone else coming in and saying, 299 00:17:46.604 --> 00:17:46.723 oh, 300 00:17:46.724 --> 00:17:47.444 you must protect this, 301 00:17:47.445 --> 00:17:49.265 and the people who live there don't care about it, 302 00:17:50.145 --> 00:17:52.086 it's not long-term go to work. 303 00:17:54.768 --> 00:17:59.591 It will be overthrown by people whose livelihoods are more important to them than the nature. 304 00:18:00.452 --> 00:18:02.213 You need to have people who live and... 305 00:18:02.805 --> 00:18:03.525 in that landscape, 306 00:18:03.926 --> 00:18:05.467 have a livelihood in that landscape, 307 00:18:05.747 --> 00:18:07.708 and actually care about the nature in that landscape. 308 00:18:08.288 --> 00:18:11.070 Then nature conservation works on its own. 309 00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:13.611 I'm not sure everybody would agree with this view. 310 00:18:13.731 --> 00:18:14.271 Some people think, 311 00:18:14.291 --> 00:18:14.412 well, 312 00:18:14.413 --> 00:18:15.972 we need to protect all these rare species, 313 00:18:16.733 --> 00:18:19.114 and people don't necessarily know about them. 314 00:18:19.734 --> 00:18:26.858 But I feel that at least a good proportion of all the nature conservation needs to be led by people connected with nature in their landscape. 315 00:18:27.639 --> 00:18:29.740 So I'm delighted about the bottom-up approach. 316 00:18:30.580 --> 00:18:31.281 Who's going to do this? 317 00:18:31.641 --> 00:18:33.982 He's going to work here and protect this that you have here. 318 00:18:34.662 --> 00:18:38.483 And there's a lot of emerging understanding, 319 00:18:38.503 --> 00:18:38.763 I think, 320 00:18:38.764 --> 00:18:41.904 in communities about how ecosystems actually work, 321 00:18:42.224 --> 00:18:47.066 how rivers are connected and how water flows in and out of them and that kind of thing. 322 00:18:47.666 --> 00:18:51.327 All of the concern in this country about sewage outflows and terrillas, 323 00:18:52.867 --> 00:18:54.728 it feels a bit like an awakening to me. 324 00:18:54.868 --> 00:18:55.088 I mean, 325 00:18:55.128 --> 00:18:56.468 it's probably not the first time it's happened, 326 00:18:56.488 --> 00:18:58.589 but it's good. 327 00:18:59.201 --> 00:19:00.102 that people are connecting. 328 00:19:00.142 --> 00:19:01.403 I think people need to connect. 329 00:19:02.063 --> 00:19:03.604 People need more connections in general. 330 00:19:03.644 --> 00:19:04.825 We need more sense of community. 331 00:19:05.565 --> 00:19:06.266 And with each other. 332 00:19:06.586 --> 00:19:08.127 And that's a great way to do that, 333 00:19:08.387 --> 00:19:19.114 to get behind a project where it's the place we live in and talking to our neighbours or fellow citizens in the area we live in and get behind something positive, 334 00:19:19.174 --> 00:19:20.695 something bringing back. 335 00:19:20.696 --> 00:19:21.216 Something positive. 336 00:19:21.217 --> 00:19:22.697 What I found in my community recently, 337 00:19:23.317 --> 00:19:27.400 there's a lot of people getting together and protesting as a community about a solar farm that's coming, 338 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:28.140 which 339 00:19:29.301 --> 00:19:32.744 Which they're very angry about indeed because it's very large. 340 00:19:33.024 --> 00:19:34.565 I think that's happening in a lot of places. 341 00:19:34.745 --> 00:19:37.006 So as an environmentalist, 342 00:19:37.027 --> 00:19:42.750 that's quite a vexing problem because obviously we need an energy transition and it needs to be big scale. 343 00:19:43.531 --> 00:19:47.193 But I'm also delighted that the people in my landscape, 344 00:19:47.194 --> 00:19:48.434 where I live in South Cambridgeshire, 345 00:19:48.654 --> 00:19:51.156 care about their landscape that much that they're angry. 346 00:19:52.317 --> 00:19:53.218 I think that's a good thing. 347 00:19:53.578 --> 00:19:57.661 I love that people care and they really care about the views they have when they walk their dogs. 348 00:19:58.741 --> 00:19:59.722 They really care about that, 349 00:20:00.343 --> 00:20:00.703 which is good. 350 00:20:01.664 --> 00:20:05.807 I wish they'd also be more open to the idea of solar energy. 351 00:20:06.448 --> 00:20:07.449 But there are different ways to do it, 352 00:20:07.469 --> 00:20:07.789 I guess. 353 00:20:09.490 --> 00:20:13.954 You do a lot of research on ecology and biodiversity and all of this. 354 00:20:14.354 --> 00:20:17.497 And the question I want to ask is, 355 00:20:19.558 --> 00:20:26.201 How do you get all the information that you collect to the people who need it the most, 356 00:20:26.401 --> 00:20:27.141 the farmers, 357 00:20:27.161 --> 00:20:28.341 the people on the ground who work, 358 00:20:28.542 --> 00:20:30.582 and making sure that that data, 359 00:20:30.943 --> 00:20:33.063 that information is available for them to use? 360 00:20:33.824 --> 00:20:34.764 That's a great question. 361 00:20:35.184 --> 00:20:38.366 So one answer is we do collect a lot of data. 362 00:20:38.786 --> 00:20:40.126 And so, 363 00:20:40.346 --> 00:20:40.927 for example, 364 00:20:40.928 --> 00:20:42.467 in the H3 project or, 365 00:20:42.887 --> 00:20:43.348 for example, 366 00:20:43.349 --> 00:20:46.289 in the project that one of my students has been working on in India. 367 00:20:46.785 --> 00:20:58.188 There's a load of samples that get taken and there'll be insect samples from pan traps or just data collected through transit walks and it all gets processed and it goes away. 368 00:20:58.189 --> 00:21:04.630 And I think the level of detail that we care about as ecologists wouldn't necessarily be of interest to everybody. 369 00:21:05.711 --> 00:21:13.133 But one of the ways in which we make sure the information reaches people is by working with those people from the outset. 370 00:21:13.849 --> 00:21:16.530 We do this thing called co-design with farmers particularly. 371 00:21:17.731 --> 00:21:24.073 We go and talk to them about what we're going to do and what they might do and what experiments we might put in place and what we might measure. 372 00:21:25.214 --> 00:21:27.935 And we obviously need their permission to go and measure on their land anyway. 373 00:21:28.535 --> 00:21:29.456 And then we'll talk to them. 374 00:21:30.316 --> 00:21:30.856 With farmers, 375 00:21:31.056 --> 00:21:36.579 we always write individual reports for each farmer that tells them not just what we found on their farm, 376 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:41.981 but also how it compares with what we found on everybody else's farm in the study in an anonymised way. 377 00:21:43.041 --> 00:21:44.482 But that's something that's really important to us. 378 00:21:44.483 --> 00:21:45.843 And the farmers really appreciate that. 379 00:21:45.863 --> 00:21:47.505 They like to see their own data, 380 00:21:47.506 --> 00:21:49.906 but they also like to see how they're doing compared to everybody else. 381 00:21:50.367 --> 00:21:53.269 So it's quite a bit of effort from our part to do that. 382 00:21:53.329 --> 00:21:57.252 But we always do that because we think it's really important for them to see the information. 383 00:21:57.553 --> 00:21:58.914 And so they'll get a species list of it. 384 00:21:59.194 --> 00:22:00.315 We don't give them species lists, 385 00:22:00.335 --> 00:22:00.555 I think, 386 00:22:01.075 --> 00:22:05.219 necessarily of all the animals because some of them don't even have common names. 387 00:22:05.379 --> 00:22:06.940 And it's just a load of Latin. 388 00:22:08.753 --> 00:22:12.295 But we'll tell them how many species and if there were any particularly interesting species, 389 00:22:12.575 --> 00:22:13.575 we'll tell them about that. 390 00:22:15.696 --> 00:22:16.216 That's one thing. 391 00:22:16.296 --> 00:22:17.397 But then beyond that, 392 00:22:18.217 --> 00:22:22.259 how do we get the information out to the wider public about what we're doing? 393 00:22:22.819 --> 00:22:23.039 I mean, 394 00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:28.722 it's things like talking to people in interviews like this is really important and videos and anything. 395 00:22:28.982 --> 00:22:30.843 It's quite hard to find the time to do it well. 396 00:22:31.183 --> 00:22:35.945 But we try and do as much outreach as we can with all sorts of different outlets. 397 00:22:36.849 --> 00:22:38.550 to explain what we've been doing, 398 00:22:39.471 --> 00:22:42.173 which I haven't really done any of yet in this. 399 00:22:43.854 --> 00:22:50.298 Do you see technology potentially helping translate all of that data and information into usable form? 400 00:22:50.879 --> 00:22:52.880 Because farming is very context specific, 401 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:59.545 so it must be quite difficult for a farmer to find information that is very specifically going to help him or her on his farm or her farm. 402 00:22:59.765 --> 00:22:59.965 Yeah, 403 00:23:00.846 --> 00:23:04.208 so there's definitely an important role for technology in all of this. 404 00:23:09.462 --> 00:23:10.323 So there's different, 405 00:23:10.324 --> 00:23:12.764 so sampling of environmental, 406 00:23:14.464 --> 00:23:26.569 sampling of environments is moving very fast in the technology that's available to do it with remote sensing from satellites and also with kind of apps and things that you can identify plants and animals. 407 00:23:26.589 --> 00:23:29.331 And there's just loads of that happening. 408 00:23:29.531 --> 00:23:31.732 And I think that it could be really useful, 409 00:23:31.792 --> 00:23:32.612 but not always. 410 00:23:32.613 --> 00:23:32.832 You know, 411 00:23:33.052 --> 00:23:34.693 it's about what information. 412 00:23:35.781 --> 00:23:36.462 Take a farmer, 413 00:23:36.682 --> 00:23:40.325 or I mean anyone who's doing land management or conservation in their own context, 414 00:23:40.345 --> 00:23:42.346 but I work mostly with farmers at the moment. 415 00:23:42.366 --> 00:23:44.128 So if you're a farmer, 416 00:23:45.429 --> 00:23:47.891 you're interested in what nature you have, 417 00:23:47.911 --> 00:23:51.493 but you're also most interested in the products that you're producing, 418 00:23:51.754 --> 00:23:52.554 I would imagine, 419 00:23:52.555 --> 00:23:56.677 and in the health of your soil and its ability to produce those products. 420 00:23:57.118 --> 00:24:00.080 So you particularly want to know about the pests, 421 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:01.541 whether there are pests. 422 00:24:02.157 --> 00:24:18.104 that are going to cause you some trouble and how many of them there are you want to ideally farmers would want to really know what natural enemy communities they've got that might help them control those pests i think there's a long way to go with that and you want to know about the health of your crop how it's doing and the health of your soil and i 423 00:24:18.105 --> 00:24:31.289 think the technology is coming to put that in the in the hands of like in the phones of farmers but i don't think they'll all want to use that some of them and probably a good proportion of them will just want to use their own knowledge of the system. 424 00:24:31.725 --> 00:24:34.187 They'll want to just pick up the soil and crumble it in their fingers. 425 00:24:35.007 --> 00:24:37.689 And they'll know how healthy it is because that's what they've always done. 426 00:24:39.330 --> 00:24:41.872 And they'll know which animals they should look out for. 427 00:24:42.873 --> 00:24:44.514 I think that some farmers like technology, 428 00:24:44.634 --> 00:24:44.934 not all. 429 00:24:45.274 --> 00:24:48.336 And it can work really well in some contexts and not all. 430 00:24:49.177 --> 00:24:52.419 It's definitely a tool that you can sometimes use. 431 00:24:53.320 --> 00:25:01.325 There's a common perception that biodiversity and productivity are incompatible. 432 00:25:01.505 --> 00:25:07.011 that we cannot care for nature and feed people at the same time. 433 00:25:08.112 --> 00:25:08.953 What do you think about that? 434 00:25:08.954 --> 00:25:10.454 And what does the science say about this? 435 00:25:11.495 --> 00:25:11.775 Okay, 436 00:25:12.516 --> 00:25:12.636 so... 437 00:25:14.932 --> 00:25:29.877 I think it's a it's a so we know that agriculture is really bad for wild nature that's the starting point so if you want to have nature and biodiversity in the same planet sorry if you want to have biodiversity or nature and and feed 438 00:25:29.917 --> 00:25:41.120 everybody in the same planet you have to be very careful about how you do this because you need to keep the nature you need to keep natural habitats so there's there's a number of things you can 439 00:25:41.860 --> 00:25:43.301 there's a number of principles, 440 00:25:43.321 --> 00:25:43.761 I suppose. 441 00:25:43.782 --> 00:25:46.083 There's like a plan of how to do this. 442 00:25:46.123 --> 00:25:47.464 One of the things is that you need to, 443 00:25:48.385 --> 00:25:48.905 in the places, 444 00:25:48.945 --> 00:25:50.206 because there's so many of us on earth, 445 00:25:50.286 --> 00:25:52.327 in the places where we grow food, 446 00:25:53.288 --> 00:25:56.190 we need to do that as efficiently and as productively as possible. 447 00:25:57.271 --> 00:25:57.971 That's one of the things, 448 00:25:57.972 --> 00:25:59.552 to minimise the aerial footprint, 449 00:25:59.972 --> 00:26:00.213 you know, 450 00:26:00.233 --> 00:26:02.974 how much area it takes up globally, 451 00:26:03.555 --> 00:26:06.937 so that we're not unnecessarily using land for farming. 452 00:26:07.698 --> 00:26:09.359 So we need to make the most of the farmland. 453 00:26:09.919 --> 00:26:11.100 That's principle one. 454 00:26:11.772 --> 00:26:15.795 We also need to do the farming in a way that doesn't degrade the farmed ecosystem, 455 00:26:16.276 --> 00:26:18.017 which we haven't been very good at in the 20th century. 456 00:26:18.097 --> 00:26:23.282 We've done a lot of degradation of soils and general pollution of the farmed environment. 457 00:26:24.002 --> 00:26:27.105 And we need to not do that because that's not sustainable in the long term. 458 00:26:28.386 --> 00:26:29.847 So that is principle two. 459 00:26:31.269 --> 00:26:32.270 We also need to, 460 00:26:33.691 --> 00:26:34.652 as well as not degrading it, 461 00:26:34.672 --> 00:26:36.733 looking after the biodiversity. 462 00:26:36.734 --> 00:26:39.556 So some of the biodiversity that lives in farmland is... 463 00:26:40.060 --> 00:26:41.541 part of the production system. 464 00:26:41.841 --> 00:26:42.421 Not all of it, 465 00:26:42.541 --> 00:26:43.882 some of it's pests, 466 00:26:44.402 --> 00:26:46.183 some of it is very destructive. 467 00:26:46.804 --> 00:26:49.525 But if you have a good thriving farmed ecosystem, 468 00:26:50.146 --> 00:26:57.370 you also have quite a lot of animals in there and microbes and things that are actually delivering part of the production. 469 00:26:57.730 --> 00:26:58.811 And that's pollinators, 470 00:26:58.971 --> 00:26:59.811 natural enemies, 471 00:27:00.772 --> 00:27:01.092 soil. 472 00:27:01.512 --> 00:27:25.499 miso animals and microbes in the soil and funguses in the soil that are doing quite a lot of the work that's creating the productivity of the environment you need to look after all of those and then on a global scale our whole food system is entirely unsustainable and that and it's partly to do with the choices that get made not necessarily by individual well it is choices by individual people but the whole food system has 473 00:27:25.579 --> 00:27:29.260 pushed us into this place where most of our land being used to produce meat. 474 00:27:31.540 --> 00:27:32.921 It's a crazy percentage. 475 00:27:33.301 --> 00:27:33.682 In the UK, 476 00:27:34.022 --> 00:27:34.802 it's 85% 477 00:27:35.062 --> 00:27:39.965 of all of the used agricultural area is delivering products for meat production, 478 00:27:40.045 --> 00:27:41.226 for dairy and livestock. 479 00:27:42.287 --> 00:27:45.428 It's like some of that's land where livestock is actually kept, 480 00:27:45.749 --> 00:27:48.950 but a lot of it is land that's under crops that is then feeding livestock. 481 00:27:50.271 --> 00:27:51.052 And globally, 482 00:27:51.092 --> 00:27:52.112 it's 77% 483 00:27:52.172 --> 00:27:55.994 of all the land in the world is just under livestock. 484 00:27:55.995 --> 00:27:58.236 And this is really inefficient use of land. 485 00:27:58.876 --> 00:28:01.097 And it's really bad for our health as humans as well. 486 00:28:01.177 --> 00:28:03.477 So it's just generally we need to change this. 487 00:28:03.517 --> 00:28:07.018 We need to have less meat production. 488 00:28:07.158 --> 00:28:10.199 There are places in the world where meat production is the only thing you can do. 489 00:28:10.239 --> 00:28:12.600 And that's kind of where it starts with the specialised meat production. 490 00:28:12.620 --> 00:28:14.000 But we've gone way beyond that. 491 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.101 And now we have this whole agricultural system that's geared towards producing meat. 492 00:28:18.541 --> 00:28:19.322 So principle four, 493 00:28:19.722 --> 00:28:21.422 we need to change the way that we, 494 00:28:22.222 --> 00:28:28.184 the diets of pretty much everybody and have less meat and more plant based food. 495 00:28:28.444 --> 00:28:29.785 because it's much more efficient use of land, 496 00:28:29.825 --> 00:28:31.447 which links back to the original principle, 497 00:28:31.448 --> 00:28:34.289 which is minimize the area that we have for agriculture. 498 00:28:34.569 --> 00:28:35.790 If you do all those things together, 499 00:28:36.311 --> 00:28:38.012 I think we can have most of that. 500 00:28:38.152 --> 00:28:39.013 We've already lost some, 501 00:28:39.014 --> 00:28:44.457 but we can certainly reverse the decline in biodiversity and still feed everybody pretty well. 502 00:28:45.698 --> 00:28:46.659 I'm not worried about that. 503 00:28:47.180 --> 00:28:48.701 I'm worried about our ability to do it. 504 00:28:48.741 --> 00:28:50.603 I'm not worried about there not being a solution out there. 505 00:28:51.083 --> 00:28:51.203 Yeah, 506 00:28:51.523 --> 00:28:51.724 okay. 507 00:28:53.365 --> 00:28:54.166 What do you think about, 508 00:28:54.346 --> 00:28:54.586 I mean, 509 00:28:54.646 --> 00:28:56.888 I've met and I've visited a lot of regenerative farms. 510 00:28:57.368 --> 00:29:13.192 for the podcast and i've met a lot of farmers who practice what they call regenerative holistic grazing management system with animals and they tend to get a little bit frustrated when we talk about meat production in general because they feel like what they do is actually not 511 00:29:13.232 --> 00:29:24.315 comparable to you know intensive industrial livestock production for example so what do you think about that i think that it's it's complicated and it's not my expert area quite so 512 00:29:24.675 --> 00:29:26.396 I don't know a lot of the details but... 513 00:29:26.656 --> 00:29:45.561 what I do know so you can make a case that the really intensive livestock production is better for biodiversity than the low intensity more regenerative systems because of the area of lambs that you use and if you look at the way that foodstuffs have their environmental impact measured through life cycle assessment biodiversity 514 00:29:45.601 --> 00:29:50.702 is just boiled down to land area how much land have you used so the intensive production looks better 515 00:29:51.743 --> 00:29:56.184 I don't really agree with that I think if look across the board at all the different things we should be delivering. 516 00:29:56.604 --> 00:30:00.428 including animal welfare and people's, 517 00:30:00.688 --> 00:30:00.928 you know, 518 00:30:00.948 --> 00:30:02.290 the state of the whole environment, 519 00:30:02.310 --> 00:30:03.551 including the farmed environment, 520 00:30:04.171 --> 00:30:06.153 then all farms are different. 521 00:30:06.954 --> 00:30:10.938 And some farms are better than others in all of the different systems you can think of, 522 00:30:10.939 --> 00:30:12.860 and there are good ways to do it. 523 00:30:14.633 --> 00:30:18.495 I feel that livestock has a place in agriculture for sure. 524 00:30:18.655 --> 00:30:25.921 I think probably the more sustainable systems might be mixed where you've got livestock and crop production and the livestock is a smaller part. 525 00:30:26.141 --> 00:30:29.463 But there are parts of the world where livestock production is the only viable thing. 526 00:30:30.344 --> 00:30:31.585 I think in the UK, 527 00:30:33.426 --> 00:30:40.051 there are areas of the UK where what we have is a culturally important, 528 00:30:40.271 --> 00:30:41.612 very low productivity. 529 00:30:42.776 --> 00:30:48.059 Not very economically viable livestock system and we should not we should just abandon it 530 00:30:48.499 --> 00:31:04.649 I feel and I think that's quite difficult for people who live there and love like in the you know The the uplands of the UK where there's a lot of sheep production it Spets of things we could do with the land It's not it's only it's left with us because it's culturally important and that's very difficult to deal with 531 00:31:05.409 --> 00:31:08.591 But from a from a kind of objective scientific perspective, 532 00:31:08.951 --> 00:31:09.852 we shouldn't really do that 533 00:31:10.416 --> 00:31:19.966 It goes back to what you said at the beginning of the conversation about changing people's mindsets and psychology being sometimes the biggest hurdle that we have to face. 534 00:31:19.967 --> 00:31:20.006 Oh, 535 00:31:20.007 --> 00:31:20.906 definitely. 536 00:31:21.707 --> 00:31:21.827 Yeah. 537 00:31:21.867 --> 00:31:22.248 And people, 538 00:31:22.468 --> 00:31:23.009 quite rightly, 539 00:31:23.189 --> 00:31:25.591 are entirely attached to the culture they've grown up in. 540 00:31:25.851 --> 00:31:26.372 Why wouldn't they be? 541 00:31:26.432 --> 00:31:27.713 And there's loads of value to that, 542 00:31:27.773 --> 00:31:28.014 you know? 543 00:31:29.455 --> 00:31:30.196 Yeah, 544 00:31:30.197 --> 00:31:30.536 of course. 545 00:31:30.836 --> 00:31:32.818 All the things associated with sheep farming, 546 00:31:32.838 --> 00:31:33.479 for instance. 547 00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:52.833 the domesticated sheepdog that we all love so much and the human dog interaction that that comes with all of that that's all part of it and of course people are attached to it and feel that it's valuable and all the different sheep breeds and that you know the really hardy ones that you know there's a lot of a lot of a lot of knowledge and expertise and human 548 00:31:52.953 --> 00:32:02.880 history and culture wrapped up in it all which is it's perfectly justifiable to be attached to that yeah of course i don't know if i've answered the question though i think probably not 549 00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:04.260 I think so. 550 00:32:04.540 --> 00:32:04.740 Okay. 551 00:32:07.281 --> 00:32:13.843 I want to try and focus the conversation a little bit on nature-based solutions for agriculture. 552 00:32:14.063 --> 00:32:14.243 Okay. 553 00:32:14.283 --> 00:32:25.426 So how do we replace solutions that are adding mechanical or chemical disturbance or plowing or using chemical inputs? 554 00:32:26.447 --> 00:32:30.708 How can we replace those with nature-based solutions and still have a... 555 00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:55.059 fully functioning working farm and a happy farmer well so i think there's a lot of work to do here the the the farming system that that is very um nature-based or used to so for a period of time it was called ecologically intensified in the scientific literature but it might also might now be called regenerative you know it's not degrading anymore but regenerating the 556 00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:00.724 the understanding how to do that is something that hasn't been the focus of agricultural research It is now. 557 00:33:01.172 --> 00:33:01.612 more and more, 558 00:33:02.313 --> 00:33:03.593 or of farmers' 559 00:33:03.774 --> 00:33:04.574 experimentation. 560 00:33:04.614 --> 00:33:04.794 Again, 561 00:33:04.814 --> 00:33:05.915 it is now more and more. 562 00:33:06.535 --> 00:33:07.616 Because we had this 563 00:33:08.016 --> 00:33:10.017 20th century of chemically driven agriculture, 564 00:33:10.477 --> 00:33:11.758 which seemed like a miracle, 565 00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:16.841 it seemed like we could suddenly produce loads more food and the downsides became apparent quite quickly. 566 00:33:17.962 --> 00:33:19.462 But there was quite a lot of profits we made. 567 00:33:19.463 --> 00:33:22.964 So we just went along with that for most of the 20th century. 568 00:33:23.004 --> 00:33:25.146 And now I think we're moving away from that. 569 00:33:26.246 --> 00:33:27.107 The solutions, 570 00:33:27.167 --> 00:33:29.308 the nature-based solutions are things like 571 00:33:29.968 --> 00:33:30.688 So in my world, 572 00:33:30.708 --> 00:33:32.689 I work on pollinators and natural enemies. 573 00:33:33.189 --> 00:33:40.752 And it is things like very well designed strips with planted flowering species that are on the edge of fields. 574 00:33:41.693 --> 00:33:46.755 And they need to be well designed and well managed so that they actually do the job that you need them to do. 575 00:33:48.196 --> 00:33:55.859 So they support the right type of natural enemies at the right time so that the natural enemies live on the flowers when they need extra food from them. 576 00:33:55.879 --> 00:33:58.460 And they come into the field when the pests are there for them to eat. 577 00:33:59.700 --> 00:34:00.980 That takes some careful design. 578 00:34:02.081 --> 00:34:04.281 And with flower strips to support pollinators, 579 00:34:04.321 --> 00:34:04.521 again, 580 00:34:05.382 --> 00:34:07.682 you need to have them so they're flowering at the right time, 581 00:34:07.702 --> 00:34:08.723 not competing with the crop, 582 00:34:09.103 --> 00:34:10.823 supporting the right kinds of insects. 583 00:34:10.983 --> 00:34:13.084 So it's almost like some people say, 584 00:34:13.085 --> 00:34:13.204 well, 585 00:34:13.205 --> 00:34:13.964 that's just gardening, 586 00:34:13.965 --> 00:34:15.084 that's not nature conservation. 587 00:34:16.185 --> 00:34:16.565 And kind of, 588 00:34:16.585 --> 00:34:16.785 yeah, 589 00:34:17.125 --> 00:34:17.365 it is. 590 00:34:17.605 --> 00:34:20.486 It's managing the environment to boost the natural services. 591 00:34:20.926 --> 00:34:23.747 So I did a piece of work I was involved in in China, 592 00:34:24.267 --> 00:34:27.228 which was peanut production in peanut fields. 593 00:34:27.728 --> 00:34:28.168 And there... 594 00:34:28.964 --> 00:34:37.772 The flower strip had been very carefully designed with a plant species that also is used for traditional medical uses. 595 00:34:37.952 --> 00:34:40.474 And it's like a wild carrot type flowering plant, 596 00:34:40.935 --> 00:34:41.435 like an umbel, 597 00:34:41.615 --> 00:34:43.657 like tiny white flowers in a sort of umbrella shape. 598 00:34:44.378 --> 00:34:49.262 And it was designed because it supports the natural enemies of the peanut aphid, 599 00:34:49.862 --> 00:34:52.144 which is one of the major economic pests of peanuts. 600 00:34:52.985 --> 00:34:56.108 So there were natural enemies like ladybirds and... 601 00:34:56.248 --> 00:35:12.760 predatory bug that eat these aphids and what what the research showed is well so it's really detailed research putting the flower strips alongside the peanuts or comparing with peanuts without flower strips alongside and then the team was led by a chinese collaborator called kanju 602 00:35:13.696 --> 00:35:21.122 And her team were looking at what the natural enemies were eating by sequencing the gut contents. 603 00:35:21.463 --> 00:35:23.284 So to see whether they were actually eating the aphids. 604 00:35:23.685 --> 00:35:24.205 And they were, 605 00:35:24.405 --> 00:35:24.845 which is good. 606 00:35:25.246 --> 00:35:34.534 And then she was counting the numbers of natural enemies in the flower strip and in the peanuts and counting the pests and measuring the peanut yields with and without the flower strips. 607 00:35:34.854 --> 00:35:38.737 And the results show that there is an increase in peanut yield when the flower strips are there. 608 00:35:39.678 --> 00:35:40.639 But really importantly, 609 00:35:41.319 --> 00:35:42.000 it's not just... 610 00:35:42.260 --> 00:36:10.204 an increase when the flower strips are there it's an increase that's sufficient that you you account for the fact that you've taken out a bit of the land to put the flower strip under so if you if you spread that yield across the whole area including the flower strip you still it's not any different from not having had the flower strip i'm just putting peanuts there and that's really important you need to be able to show that not only do these if these if these mechanisms like nature-based solutions that are going to deliver some boost to the productivity to. 611 00:36:11.808 --> 00:36:18.191 If you need to be able to show that they boost the productivity sufficiently to allow for the fact that you've taken some land out of production. 612 00:36:18.331 --> 00:36:20.592 And that's why they need to be really carefully designed. 613 00:36:21.732 --> 00:36:22.713 If you don't get them right, 614 00:36:22.753 --> 00:36:23.453 they won't do that. 615 00:36:23.513 --> 00:36:33.177 Because that's actually quite a tall order for a flower strip to deliver such a boost to the peanut production that it more than takes account of the land that the flower strips on. 616 00:36:33.178 --> 00:36:34.277 Yeah. 617 00:36:34.278 --> 00:36:34.878 But in that case, 618 00:36:34.879 --> 00:36:35.438 it works. 619 00:36:35.598 --> 00:36:35.918 We did. 620 00:36:36.638 --> 00:36:37.799 So that's amazing. 621 00:36:37.859 --> 00:36:38.359 That's great. 622 00:36:38.379 --> 00:36:40.980 And I guess you also need to look at it from an economic perspective. 623 00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:56.793 perspective there is an extra cost and extra complexity the seed management but on the other hand you you have all these other benefits and you have potentially reduced costs in inputs and so on so what does the the data say about 624 00:36:56.794 --> 00:37:10.564 the the economics for the farmer the data we really need we haven't we haven't looked at the numbers on on that on the economics of that one because it was an experimental trial at field scale we we will be looking at the numbers in the h3 project for the economic costs. 625 00:37:11.144 --> 00:37:13.005 Not as clearly as we would like to. 626 00:37:13.065 --> 00:37:15.225 So it's the main question, 627 00:37:15.265 --> 00:37:15.505 I think. 628 00:37:16.065 --> 00:37:23.467 What we can see with the regenerative farmers in the H3 project is that they are using fewer inputs. 629 00:37:23.468 --> 00:37:27.028 They use less fertilizer and they use less insecticides overall. 630 00:37:27.669 --> 00:37:29.569 So it's very likely that they're making savings, 631 00:37:29.649 --> 00:37:30.389 cost savings there. 632 00:37:30.889 --> 00:37:31.950 But we haven't looked at the numbers yet. 633 00:37:32.350 --> 00:37:33.270 And it's the main thing. 634 00:37:33.271 --> 00:37:33.450 I mean, 635 00:37:33.470 --> 00:37:34.530 it's super important. 636 00:37:34.730 --> 00:37:35.651 The farmers will tell you, 637 00:37:36.431 --> 00:37:40.232 the good regenerative farmers who've been doing it for a long time will tell you they make more profit. 638 00:37:40.592 --> 00:37:42.833 And there is a study in the literature from 639 00:37:43.454 --> 00:37:46.295 May's Farms in the US from Jonathan Lundgren's group, 640 00:37:46.615 --> 00:37:51.298 which showed a really clear profit increase or lower costs, 641 00:37:51.378 --> 00:37:53.679 more income from the farms that were regenerative. 642 00:37:53.680 --> 00:37:56.541 But some of those were organic and they're getting a price premium. 643 00:37:56.581 --> 00:38:00.883 So there's a the economics of complex was if we can put a price premium on regenerative farms, 644 00:38:00.903 --> 00:38:02.704 which is hard because it's hard to define, 645 00:38:03.344 --> 00:38:05.125 then that would be part of the calculation as well. 646 00:38:05.766 --> 00:38:08.827 It's about the cost of and the cost of energy as well as important here, 647 00:38:09.147 --> 00:38:09.848 the cost of fuel. 648 00:38:10.908 --> 00:38:12.189 If you're doing regenerative farming, 649 00:38:12.549 --> 00:38:13.770 you're plowing a lot less, 650 00:38:13.990 --> 00:38:14.390 if at all. 651 00:38:14.971 --> 00:38:18.973 And so you're just using a lot less fuel and that helps when the prices are really high. 652 00:38:19.814 --> 00:38:26.117 So I think generally these more sustainable approaches like regenerative farming are more profitable. 653 00:38:26.898 --> 00:38:31.461 And you have increased resilience as well to future shocks because you're less dependent. 654 00:38:31.521 --> 00:38:32.221 Very much so. 655 00:38:32.461 --> 00:38:32.581 Yeah. 656 00:38:32.621 --> 00:38:33.782 So we've done a piece of work, 657 00:38:34.142 --> 00:38:36.964 a PhD student who's just finished in my group called Iris Berger. 658 00:38:37.572 --> 00:38:39.854 did an amazing study in southern India, 659 00:38:39.874 --> 00:38:40.655 in Andhra Pradesh, 660 00:38:40.955 --> 00:38:44.938 looking at an agroecological system called zero-budget natural farming, 661 00:38:45.619 --> 00:38:45.819 which, 662 00:38:46.039 --> 00:38:46.340 again, 663 00:38:46.420 --> 00:38:47.260 it's a similar thing. 664 00:38:47.681 --> 00:38:49.662 It's arisen from the farming community. 665 00:38:50.003 --> 00:38:50.663 It's something that was, 666 00:38:50.904 --> 00:38:57.970 and it's been very heavily incentivized by the government of Andhra Pradesh because it removes the reliance on chemicals, 667 00:38:58.270 --> 00:39:00.572 which is something that they were quite keen on for their local economy. 668 00:39:01.893 --> 00:39:05.216 And it's very culturally appropriate for there. 669 00:39:05.580 --> 00:39:09.942 So the way it's described is not the way that regenerative farming is described at all, 670 00:39:10.902 --> 00:39:11.383 say in the UK, 671 00:39:11.623 --> 00:39:12.123 for example. 672 00:39:12.143 --> 00:39:12.563 But actually, 673 00:39:12.564 --> 00:39:14.644 when you look at the details of the practices, 674 00:39:15.104 --> 00:39:16.125 it has some similarities. 675 00:39:16.145 --> 00:39:21.647 It's about looking after the soil and not relying on synthetic inputs and increasing the diversity of crops that you grow. 676 00:39:22.367 --> 00:39:24.608 But it tends to be a kind of community level activity. 677 00:39:24.688 --> 00:39:31.652 So they would make inoculums for soil at kind of village level and use that in these farms. 678 00:39:31.752 --> 00:39:32.452 So it's called... 679 00:39:32.984 --> 00:39:37.027 It's called a community managed natural farming or zero budget natural farming. 680 00:39:37.808 --> 00:39:38.108 Anyway, 681 00:39:38.588 --> 00:39:38.708 so 682 00:39:39.069 --> 00:39:44.012 Iris did a two year study and looked in a lot of detail at pollinators and birds. 683 00:39:44.013 --> 00:39:47.675 And she also looked at the yields that were being produced and the profits. 684 00:39:48.335 --> 00:39:51.518 And what she found is that the birds are slightly better. 685 00:39:51.678 --> 00:39:54.180 Nothing like as good as the bird communities in natural forest, 686 00:39:54.600 --> 00:39:57.622 but slightly better in the natural farm farming systems. 687 00:39:58.743 --> 00:40:00.084 The pollinators are much better. 688 00:40:00.892 --> 00:40:01.492 The pollinators, 689 00:40:02.333 --> 00:40:13.060 the insects that are visiting cashew flowers are much increased in the natural farming systems and the yields are similar but the profit is much higher in the in the zero 690 00:40:13.168 --> 00:40:34.280 budget natural farms it's more than doubled which is uh because of the much lower input costs so it's from a livelihood perspective it's it's a win-win you get more biodiversity you get the same yield so you're not reducing the amount of uh yield per unit area of the farmland and therefore you know causing a problem for biodiversity elsewhere but 691 00:40:34.281 --> 00:40:41.324 the farmers do much better because they get more than double the profit and this was so that that uh economic data comes from the farmers that are growing the the 692 00:40:42.448 --> 00:40:44.870 systems dominated by rice in Andhra Pradesh. 693 00:40:46.231 --> 00:40:46.712 It's amazing. 694 00:40:47.372 --> 00:40:48.253 Yeah. 695 00:40:48.254 --> 00:40:49.394 When we can get a little bit of, 696 00:40:49.395 --> 00:40:49.614 you know, 697 00:40:50.094 --> 00:40:50.995 optimism and hope, 698 00:40:52.116 --> 00:40:52.716 much needed. 699 00:40:52.897 --> 00:40:55.239 But there seems to be a lot of data coming, 700 00:40:56.099 --> 00:40:56.500 more of it, 701 00:40:57.220 --> 00:40:57.961 regenerative farming, 702 00:40:57.981 --> 00:40:59.662 and it all points towards that. 703 00:40:59.782 --> 00:41:02.304 It all points towards a better livelihood for the farmer, 704 00:41:02.985 --> 00:41:04.706 better quality products, 705 00:41:05.587 --> 00:41:07.869 very little loss of yields, 706 00:41:08.089 --> 00:41:08.429 if any, 707 00:41:08.509 --> 00:41:10.491 sometimes. 708 00:41:10.511 --> 00:41:11.392 I think there's going to be some, 709 00:41:11.393 --> 00:41:11.912 but it's about... 710 00:41:12.032 --> 00:41:39.652 crop choices rather than so for example if you if you're doing regenerative farming most arable farmers who are doing regenerative they'll move a bit more mixed and they'll probably have some time out of production the fields will be put into herbal lays for a bit and so it might be that you get a similar yield when you've got the cereal crop but over the five years you're not producing as much because you're taking the land out on quite a big scale for some of the time and i i don't i don't think we should shy away from being honest about that yeah okay because it really matters 711 00:41:40.112 --> 00:41:45.736 But what if you turn them into permanent pastures for a few years and have animals coming to the system? 712 00:41:45.976 --> 00:41:46.757 Then if you've got animals, 713 00:41:46.758 --> 00:41:47.938 then you're producing something different, 714 00:41:48.158 --> 00:41:48.358 right? 715 00:41:48.458 --> 00:41:49.099 So yeah, 716 00:41:49.100 --> 00:41:52.321 and that's complicated to work out, 717 00:41:52.441 --> 00:41:54.783 but your overall food production is then similar. 718 00:41:54.863 --> 00:41:54.983 Yeah, 719 00:41:55.223 --> 00:41:58.886 I think that there's a lot of thinking to do about how exactly to frame this. 720 00:41:59.146 --> 00:42:00.267 I feel like if, 721 00:42:00.467 --> 00:42:00.907 especially, 722 00:42:01.388 --> 00:42:01.628 you know, 723 00:42:01.848 --> 00:42:06.231 if governments are incentivizing particular agricultural systems anywhere in the world, 724 00:42:06.251 --> 00:42:06.972 whether that's for the 725 00:42:07.236 --> 00:42:08.457 purpose of economic development, 726 00:42:08.497 --> 00:42:10.259 as it often is in low-income countries, 727 00:42:10.779 --> 00:42:14.282 or whether it's just to support the long-term future of the farming community, 728 00:42:14.362 --> 00:42:15.503 as it is in Europe, 729 00:42:15.504 --> 00:42:16.084 for example. 730 00:42:17.104 --> 00:42:18.866 These are the systems we should be incentivising, 731 00:42:19.547 --> 00:42:22.169 not the chemically intensive systems that degrade the environment. 732 00:42:22.589 --> 00:42:26.713 But we need to do it in a way that doesn't cause us to produce less food overall, 733 00:42:27.193 --> 00:42:27.433 really, 734 00:42:27.974 --> 00:42:28.354 I feel, 735 00:42:28.854 --> 00:42:31.777 because what we're doing then is offshoring our impact, 736 00:42:32.277 --> 00:42:35.180 and the vast majority of our biodiversity impact. 737 00:42:35.964 --> 00:42:39.687 from the food system in a country like the UK is not here, 738 00:42:39.707 --> 00:42:40.307 it's overseas. 739 00:42:41.368 --> 00:42:48.313 So if we actually produce a bit less food here because we're getting a bit more of the common generalist species that hang out in farmland here, 740 00:42:48.993 --> 00:42:53.096 what we could be doing is driving the loss of driving extinctions in other parts of the world. 741 00:42:53.196 --> 00:42:57.159 And we really need to not do that and be aware of it. 742 00:42:57.819 --> 00:43:01.602 Could also waste less food because we waste up to 50% 743 00:43:01.882 --> 00:43:02.823 of what we produce in total. 744 00:43:02.824 --> 00:43:02.923 Yeah, 745 00:43:02.924 --> 00:43:03.083 of course. 746 00:43:04.424 --> 00:43:04.844 That would help. 747 00:43:05.044 --> 00:43:05.284 Yes, 748 00:43:05.705 --> 00:43:05.825 yeah, 749 00:43:05.905 --> 00:43:06.525 that's the other thing. 750 00:43:06.545 --> 00:43:07.726 I haven't mentioned food waste. 751 00:43:08.227 --> 00:43:08.787 There's a lot of it. 752 00:43:08.788 --> 00:43:11.049 So I feel like there's plenty of food in the world. 753 00:43:11.410 --> 00:43:13.571 We're not spreading it out very well. 754 00:43:14.172 --> 00:43:16.734 It's not the right sort of food that we're producing and we're wasting loads of it. 755 00:43:17.135 --> 00:43:17.535 Yeah, 756 00:43:17.536 --> 00:43:18.215 as you said earlier, 757 00:43:18.255 --> 00:43:19.917 it's not the solutions. 758 00:43:20.037 --> 00:43:20.818 We have the solutions. 759 00:43:20.819 --> 00:43:22.960 We know kind of the direction we could take. 760 00:43:23.560 --> 00:43:25.522 The problem is actually getting there, 761 00:43:25.642 --> 00:43:25.962 doing it. 762 00:43:26.142 --> 00:43:26.383 Yes, 763 00:43:26.543 --> 00:43:27.744 and there are loads of barriers to that. 764 00:43:29.045 --> 00:43:31.787 These nature-based solutions like the one we just discussed, 765 00:43:31.847 --> 00:43:32.628 so integrated... 766 00:43:32.768 --> 00:43:49.540 pest management despite you know this growing evidence that it has a lot of positive benefits it seems like it's more like the exception than the norm at the moment so what would it take for these solutions to gain 767 00:43:49.580 --> 00:43:52.142 momentum and to become more widespread? 768 00:43:53.323 --> 00:43:54.704 That's a great question so 769 00:43:55.144 --> 00:44:00.688 I think that the one of the issues in agriculture is that there's a kind of 770 00:44:00.888 --> 00:44:19.814 quite understandable risk aversion we're sort of locked into this system that relies on chemicals they're quite they're very well designed they um they allow an individual farmer to control the thing when it causes a problem and starts when it as as you get a a big outbreak 771 00:44:20.194 --> 00:44:24.616 of a pest you can just kill it so it's very appealing and controllable 772 00:44:25.220 --> 00:44:27.702 Whereas the nature-based solutions are not like that. 773 00:44:27.982 --> 00:44:35.547 You're not so much in control and you are going to have some losses and you're going to have to diversify in order to be able to cope with those risks. 774 00:44:36.068 --> 00:44:45.914 So it's all about the way in which farmers deal with the risks and how the whole system deals with the risks. 775 00:44:45.915 --> 00:44:47.175 And it's also about profit. 776 00:44:47.475 --> 00:44:49.717 So one of the problems in agriculture. 777 00:44:49.937 --> 00:44:51.158 It's worth saying at the beginning, 778 00:44:51.198 --> 00:44:51.378 though, 779 00:44:51.418 --> 00:44:51.678 actually, 780 00:44:51.738 --> 00:44:52.839 there's been a recent... 781 00:44:54.100 --> 00:45:09.957 big study like a big meta-analysis of studies that have been comparing the effect of using threshold-based rules or triggers for spraying insecticides compared to just spraying them regularly on a sort of calendar basis which a lot of farmers still do and 782 00:45:10.077 --> 00:45:13.060 and you can and what it showed across a whole load of studies 783 00:45:13.540 --> 00:45:14.100 all around the world, 784 00:45:14.101 --> 00:45:16.041 126 different studies globally, 785 00:45:16.681 --> 00:45:20.322 is that you can actually reduce your use of insecticides by 44% 786 00:45:21.422 --> 00:45:27.444 just by only spraying in response to threshold densities of pests without any yield penalty at all, 787 00:45:27.484 --> 00:45:28.485 without losing any yield. 788 00:45:28.565 --> 00:45:36.187 So that basically means we could change the way we do this and monitor pests and only spray when we really need to and almost half the amount of insecticide we use. 789 00:45:36.987 --> 00:45:39.928 That would be wonderful for agricultural environments. 790 00:45:40.540 --> 00:45:40.780 You know, 791 00:45:41.120 --> 00:45:48.303 what we know from European studies is that wild bees living in the environment are exposed to a whole cocktail of toxic chemicals all the time. 792 00:45:48.743 --> 00:45:55.586 There's an average of eight different toxins that come from agrochemicals in the pollen being collected by bumblebees in Europe. 793 00:45:56.847 --> 00:45:59.608 And some of those colonies have got 27 different chemicals, 794 00:45:59.609 --> 00:45:59.828 you know, 795 00:45:59.829 --> 00:46:02.109 so there's a massive exposure. 796 00:46:02.110 --> 00:46:05.931 So I've gone off on a track of talking about the problems and you asked me not about the problems, 797 00:46:06.731 --> 00:46:08.612 but about why the solutions don't emerge. 798 00:46:09.472 --> 00:46:10.052 And so 799 00:46:10.793 --> 00:46:11.793 I was talking about risk. 800 00:46:11.933 --> 00:46:16.175 So I think it's what happens in a lot of agricultural systems, 801 00:46:16.215 --> 00:46:17.776 particularly crop production systems, 802 00:46:17.836 --> 00:46:22.418 is that the person who's taking the decisions about what to spray and when is not necessarily the farmer, 803 00:46:22.419 --> 00:46:23.258 but the farm advisor. 804 00:46:24.139 --> 00:46:26.480 And the farm advisor doesn't own the land, 805 00:46:26.700 --> 00:46:27.641 but does take the risk. 806 00:46:28.361 --> 00:46:32.003 And so it's about who takes the risk and who lives with the consequences. 807 00:46:32.603 --> 00:46:33.403 There's not a match. 808 00:46:33.503 --> 00:46:34.084 And often, 809 00:46:34.324 --> 00:46:34.864 not always, 810 00:46:34.904 --> 00:46:35.024 but... 811 00:46:35.204 --> 00:46:39.447 Often that farm advisor is also from a company that has a vested interest in selling chemicals. 812 00:46:39.787 --> 00:46:40.988 And that is something we can solve. 813 00:46:42.509 --> 00:46:48.253 It shouldn't be possible for advice going to farmers to come directly from the agrochemical industry. 814 00:46:48.293 --> 00:46:51.195 And yet that does happen in lots of places around the world. 815 00:46:51.455 --> 00:46:53.496 And I think it still happens in Europe as well. 816 00:46:55.798 --> 00:46:56.739 So that's one of the issues. 817 00:46:56.999 --> 00:47:03.023 I don't think that pharmaceutical companies are allowed to provide direct advice on how doctors treat patients for the same reason. 818 00:47:03.523 --> 00:47:04.524 because they would advise... 819 00:47:04.804 --> 00:47:05.985 on using the chemicals, 820 00:47:06.646 --> 00:47:08.027 the pharmaceuticals that they make. 821 00:47:09.248 --> 00:47:11.690 So we could have independent advice that was not, 822 00:47:11.910 --> 00:47:13.352 and that would go some of the way. 823 00:47:13.372 --> 00:47:13.912 But there's also, 824 00:47:13.972 --> 00:47:14.212 you know, 825 00:47:14.733 --> 00:47:22.460 this is a big transition away from something that's very controlled and very simplified to something that's more complex and diverse and doesn't always, 826 00:47:22.540 --> 00:47:23.801 sometimes you're going to have issues. 827 00:47:24.682 --> 00:47:27.444 Nature is relatively regulated. 828 00:47:27.784 --> 00:47:28.965 And if you have a diversity, 829 00:47:28.985 --> 00:47:31.628 you don't tend to have so many big pest outbreaks. 830 00:47:31.968 --> 00:47:38.211 But what you then have to do is deal with the complexity of the environment you've created to reduce the spikes and the outbreaks. 831 00:47:38.712 --> 00:47:45.695 I think if we'd thrown all of our human ingenuity and engineering prowess at farming in a more complex, 832 00:47:45.795 --> 00:47:47.616 diverse way for the last hundred years, 833 00:47:47.656 --> 00:47:48.717 we'd be in a very different place. 834 00:47:49.277 --> 00:47:52.279 But the money isn't so quick to come if you do that. 835 00:47:52.359 --> 00:47:54.940 It's quicker if you simplify and mechanize and scale up. 836 00:47:55.381 --> 00:47:55.561 Yeah, 837 00:47:55.781 --> 00:47:56.301 sure. 838 00:47:56.302 --> 00:48:01.504 We need to sort of get a grip and develop the economy in a way that's not going to destroy us all. 839 00:48:02.184 --> 00:48:02.304 Yeah, 840 00:48:03.344 --> 00:48:07.946 I love the idea of sort of investing in a body of independent agronomists, 841 00:48:08.086 --> 00:48:15.208 because obviously we keep talking about the complexity that regenerative farming adds for the farmer that already has to deal with so much. 842 00:48:16.188 --> 00:48:30.232 And so having people who are trained specifically to understand the complexity of nature and farming and who are staying up to date with the latest science and so on and who are independent. 843 00:48:30.332 --> 00:48:31.032 So they have... 844 00:48:31.652 --> 00:48:48.904 their interest is the the farmer's well-being um socioeconomic health yeah um it feels like it would be a great place to focus yes so it would on the the the agronomic advice and my personal feeling is that it probably should be government funded the 845 00:48:48.905 --> 00:49:00.652 the advice but the other the other aspects of this is is education agricultural education i think that it's changing now but but certainly in this country the the way in which people who ended up as farmers 846 00:49:00.952 --> 00:49:03.474 what they learned about in their agricultural degrees, 847 00:49:03.514 --> 00:49:04.375 which they have to do, 848 00:49:06.256 --> 00:49:10.399 was not ecology and ecosystems and complexity and regenerative farming. 849 00:49:11.060 --> 00:49:16.504 It was chemical treatment of things and simplification and productivity. 850 00:49:17.084 --> 00:49:20.026 And it was the 20th century agriculture. 851 00:49:20.527 --> 00:49:21.968 And I think it's been quite, 852 00:49:21.969 --> 00:49:25.190 I hate to say this because I'm not in an agricultural college and it feels very critical, 853 00:49:25.210 --> 00:49:27.172 but I do think it's been a bit slow to respond. 854 00:49:28.064 --> 00:49:31.386 Because there's a long lag when you're training people to do agriculture. 855 00:49:32.126 --> 00:49:35.328 And then those people go out and do their agriculture and they do it for another 40 years. 856 00:49:37.249 --> 00:49:46.654 So we really need to introduce more complex ecology and regenerative techniques into agricultural education at degree level. 857 00:49:46.655 --> 00:49:50.316 And I think the agricultural colleges and universities are doing that now. 858 00:49:50.756 --> 00:49:50.957 Yes. 859 00:49:51.097 --> 00:49:52.277 And that will make a difference. 860 00:49:52.697 --> 00:49:52.818 Yeah, 861 00:49:52.918 --> 00:49:53.278 for sure. 862 00:49:53.778 --> 00:49:57.040 and I agree with you that it should probably get 863 00:49:57.464 --> 00:49:59.165 funded by the states. 864 00:49:59.666 --> 00:50:01.367 We spoke in a recent episode, 865 00:50:01.368 --> 00:50:07.391 we spoke a lot about the true cost of farming and the hidden cost of farming and what it costs to society and what it costs to governments, 866 00:50:07.392 --> 00:50:08.031 to economies. 867 00:50:08.711 --> 00:50:16.617 And it feels like it would be such a tiny investment to make with such huge returns if we take the true cost of food into account. 868 00:50:16.637 --> 00:50:16.837 Yes. 869 00:50:17.137 --> 00:50:17.297 Yeah. 870 00:50:17.617 --> 00:50:18.818 It would make food more expensive, 871 00:50:18.838 --> 00:50:20.719 which is politically quite hard though. 872 00:50:21.700 --> 00:50:22.000 isn't it? 873 00:50:22.241 --> 00:50:22.901 But would it though? 874 00:50:22.921 --> 00:50:26.986 Because the idea is that instead of spending more money on healthcare, 875 00:50:27.146 --> 00:50:29.668 on cleaning up the mess, 876 00:50:30.770 --> 00:50:35.434 you would spend a fraction of that money on the solutions at the source. 877 00:50:35.875 --> 00:50:36.035 Yeah, 878 00:50:36.295 --> 00:50:36.536 okay, 879 00:50:36.816 --> 00:50:37.136 you're right. 880 00:50:37.236 --> 00:50:40.460 If you take into account the wider costs of cleaning up, 881 00:50:40.580 --> 00:50:40.780 yes, 882 00:50:40.900 --> 00:50:42.382 it probably would make economic sense. 883 00:50:42.383 --> 00:50:42.502 Well, 884 00:50:42.822 --> 00:50:44.184 it certainly would make economic sense. 885 00:50:44.185 --> 00:50:44.504 You're right. 886 00:50:49.132 --> 00:50:49.632 So hi Lynn, 887 00:50:50.212 --> 00:50:51.773 glad you're getting to speak with Rafael. 888 00:50:53.173 --> 00:50:55.414 Here's my question for you. 889 00:50:55.794 --> 00:50:57.114 As a biodiversity expert, 890 00:50:57.614 --> 00:51:03.516 there are many conversations at a policy level about valuing biodiversity. 891 00:51:04.096 --> 00:51:04.596 In the EU, 892 00:51:04.796 --> 00:51:07.317 there's talk of developing so-called nature credits. 893 00:51:08.097 --> 00:51:08.517 In the UK, 894 00:51:08.897 --> 00:51:18.440 we have already the so-called biodiversity net gain system where property developers need to pay for biodiversity improvements. 895 00:51:19.288 --> 00:51:26.996 So my question is around these different attempts to monetize biodiversity improvements. 896 00:51:27.376 --> 00:51:27.856 In your view, 897 00:51:28.317 --> 00:51:30.459 for whom does value... 898 00:51:31.720 --> 00:51:35.323 of on-farm biodiversity really accrue? 899 00:51:35.743 --> 00:51:43.108 Who benefits from improvements in biodiversity on-farm beyond the farmer themselves? 900 00:51:43.468 --> 00:51:43.888 And therefore, 901 00:51:43.908 --> 00:51:44.429 who should pay? 902 00:51:45.630 --> 00:51:46.390 That's a great question. 903 00:51:46.430 --> 00:51:46.570 Hi, 904 00:51:46.650 --> 00:51:46.891 Andrew. 905 00:51:46.971 --> 00:51:48.051 Thanks for the great question. 906 00:51:49.332 --> 00:51:50.493 So besides the farmer, 907 00:51:51.454 --> 00:51:52.134 but everybody, 908 00:51:52.214 --> 00:51:53.035 we all benefit. 909 00:51:53.355 --> 00:51:55.156 We're talking about natural capital here. 910 00:51:55.196 --> 00:52:00.320 We're talking about the aspects of nature that actually underpin our economy. 911 00:52:00.868 --> 00:52:01.648 Clean water, 912 00:52:02.408 --> 00:52:04.949 soil that is still able to produce food 100, 913 00:52:05.009 --> 00:52:06.050 200 years from now, 914 00:52:06.950 --> 00:52:13.432 a climate that's regulated and vegetation that's absorbing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. 915 00:52:14.432 --> 00:52:15.652 Everybody benefits from this. 916 00:52:15.973 --> 00:52:20.694 And also there's the cultural joy that you get from nature, 917 00:52:20.734 --> 00:52:26.056 from having a butterfly in your garden or just walking in the countryside and being able to hear a bird song. 918 00:52:26.396 --> 00:52:27.096 I noticed that in, 919 00:52:27.872 --> 00:52:29.453 In the Gare du Nord in Paris, 920 00:52:29.513 --> 00:52:31.114 I've been through there twice in the last month, 921 00:52:31.174 --> 00:52:33.335 and they are piping birdsong into the station, 922 00:52:33.675 --> 00:52:38.778 which for me feels very jarring and strange because it's a very busy station with loads of other human noise, 923 00:52:39.338 --> 00:52:40.179 anthropogenic noise. 924 00:52:40.539 --> 00:52:48.803 But there's a wide recognition that the birdsong has a value that's not really about any kind of economic value. 925 00:52:49.704 --> 00:52:53.006 It's a mental well-being and cultural value to people. 926 00:52:53.206 --> 00:52:54.967 So we all benefit from that, 927 00:52:55.127 --> 00:52:55.527 everybody, 928 00:52:55.967 --> 00:52:56.968 everybody who eats food. 929 00:52:57.348 --> 00:52:58.429 Everybody who lives here, 930 00:52:58.529 --> 00:52:59.490 everyone who has a job, 931 00:52:59.690 --> 00:53:04.873 everyone benefits from having healthy ecosystems in all the farmland. 932 00:53:05.093 --> 00:53:06.074 And so the question was, 933 00:53:06.374 --> 00:53:06.995 then who should pay? 934 00:53:07.035 --> 00:53:07.895 If everyone benefits, 935 00:53:08.416 --> 00:53:08.936 who should pay? 936 00:53:10.917 --> 00:53:11.398 We should. 937 00:53:11.718 --> 00:53:12.538 So we should all pay. 938 00:53:13.659 --> 00:53:17.482 And that means that means governments paying through through their tax revenue. 939 00:53:17.483 --> 00:53:23.146 And it means businesses paying and people paying the cost of it needs if there is a cost. 940 00:53:23.166 --> 00:53:23.806 And maybe there isn't. 941 00:53:23.826 --> 00:53:24.046 You know, 942 00:53:24.066 --> 00:53:24.807 maybe if you do it well, 943 00:53:24.827 --> 00:53:25.768 it actually saves money. 944 00:53:25.848 --> 00:53:26.148 and you you 945 00:53:26.856 --> 00:53:42.540 you there isn't really a cost which we've shown with the the the farmers i was talking about in in south india who are doing the zero budget natural farming their income increases more than doubles when they when they reduce their inputs and farm in a more sustainable way without 946 00:53:42.940 --> 00:53:56.024 losing any food production so that there actually is no cost to it it saves us money thank you so much lynn honestly love this conversation from start to finish it's been amazing thank you so much for giving us your time and 947 00:53:56.324 --> 00:53:57.867 your amazing experience and expertise. 948 00:53:58.187 --> 00:53:59.209 Thanks for the conversation. 949 00:53:59.229 --> 00:53:59.950 I've really enjoyed it. 950 00:53:59.951 --> 00:54:00.591 It's been a pleasure.