WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.108 --> 00:00:00.328 Hi, 2 00:00:00.609 --> 00:00:02.510 it's Pauline from Meet the Expats. 3 00:00:02.651 --> 00:00:05.212 Today I meet with Nancy Hunter, 4 00:00:05.915 --> 00:00:07.657 who is an expat. 5 00:00:07.837 --> 00:00:13.739 She has lived in Switzerland and Denmark in the past 20 years, 6 00:00:13.841 --> 00:00:15.825 gone back to the US twice, 7 00:00:16.590 --> 00:00:22.669 and through her journey has managed her career and also navigated, 8 00:00:22.731 --> 00:00:23.247 unfortunately, 9 00:00:23.294 --> 00:00:25.715 the death of immediate family. 10 00:00:25.778 --> 00:00:28.903 So we're going to go through that story about grief, 11 00:00:29.012 --> 00:00:29.450 but also 12 00:00:30.284 --> 00:00:30.544 you know, 13 00:00:30.885 --> 00:00:35.149 change going back to the US and everything that goes with expat life, 14 00:00:35.169 --> 00:00:35.649 basically. 15 00:00:36.270 --> 00:00:36.411 Hi, 16 00:00:36.532 --> 00:00:36.892 Nancy. 17 00:00:37.032 --> 00:00:37.470 How are you? 18 00:00:37.649 --> 00:00:37.770 Hi, 19 00:00:37.892 --> 00:00:38.392 Pauline. 20 00:00:38.509 --> 00:00:38.852 I'm good. 21 00:00:38.915 --> 00:00:40.173 Thanks for having me on your show. 22 00:00:40.774 --> 00:00:44.782 I'm excited to hear your fascinating story for sure. 23 00:00:45.501 --> 00:00:47.376 I'll let you introduce yourself briefly, 24 00:00:47.688 --> 00:00:51.017 and then we'll go into the beginning of the journey. 25 00:00:51.673 --> 00:00:51.860 Yeah. 26 00:00:52.063 --> 00:00:53.220 So let's see, 27 00:00:53.313 --> 00:00:57.235 I have been kind of living the expat life on and off over the years, 28 00:00:57.267 --> 00:00:58.907 as you said in your introduction. 29 00:00:59.017 --> 00:00:59.157 And 30 00:00:59.512 --> 00:01:04.718 A lot of that for me was predicated on having a career in the pharma and biotech space. 31 00:01:05.097 --> 00:01:10.366 So I have to give a lot of credit to those companies for allowing me the chance to live and work abroad. 32 00:01:11.264 --> 00:01:13.147 Great international companies. 33 00:01:13.444 --> 00:01:13.585 Yeah, 34 00:01:13.702 --> 00:01:14.147 exactly. 35 00:01:14.225 --> 00:01:15.530 Big international companies. 36 00:01:16.014 --> 00:01:17.514 It makes the paperwork easier, 37 00:01:17.764 --> 00:01:17.983 right? 38 00:01:17.984 --> 00:01:19.796 The HR departments are quite helpful. 39 00:01:19.827 --> 00:01:20.218 For sure. 40 00:01:21.046 --> 00:01:24.280 So that's kind of how my whole journey got started. 41 00:01:25.030 --> 00:01:25.905 And it's been good. 42 00:01:25.936 --> 00:01:26.171 I mean, 43 00:01:26.172 --> 00:01:27.593 And I love living the expat life. 44 00:01:27.928 --> 00:01:31.171 I think I'll probably always go back and forth over the pond somehow. 45 00:01:31.892 --> 00:01:32.935 It just seems to fit. 46 00:01:33.052 --> 00:01:33.173 So, 47 00:01:33.833 --> 00:01:33.993 yeah. 48 00:01:34.216 --> 00:01:34.595 Okay. 49 00:01:35.396 --> 00:01:41.138 And so was this something you always wanted at some point to move abroad? 50 00:01:41.224 --> 00:01:46.138 Or did it just come up through your job and through the companies you were at? 51 00:01:47.201 --> 00:01:47.326 Yeah, 52 00:01:47.404 --> 00:01:47.701 I think, 53 00:01:47.904 --> 00:01:48.451 good question. 54 00:01:48.701 --> 00:01:48.951 You know, 55 00:01:48.982 --> 00:01:51.872 I've reflected on this a lot because other people have asked, 56 00:01:52.435 --> 00:01:55.060 and I think probably what started it for me. 57 00:01:55.232 --> 00:01:55.357 So. 58 00:01:56.156 --> 00:01:57.718 I may have mentioned that my, 59 00:01:58.359 --> 00:02:00.601 when we were chatting earlier on email, 60 00:02:00.961 --> 00:02:02.801 that my mom had cancer when I was a kid. 61 00:02:03.062 --> 00:02:03.183 So 62 00:02:03.742 --> 00:02:07.527 I was about six months old and she was in the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, 63 00:02:07.590 --> 00:02:08.129 Minnesota. 64 00:02:08.191 --> 00:02:12.058 And so I spent a lot of time as a kid going to the Mayo Clinic with her, 65 00:02:12.590 --> 00:02:13.808 visiting oncologists. 66 00:02:13.855 --> 00:02:15.402 And at that time in the U.S., 67 00:02:15.512 --> 00:02:16.637 many of the, 68 00:02:17.871 --> 00:02:18.433 like, 69 00:02:18.434 --> 00:02:18.637 you know, 70 00:02:18.746 --> 00:02:21.074 sheikhs were coming in with their flowing robes. 71 00:02:21.324 --> 00:02:22.308 So we had a lot of, 72 00:02:22.605 --> 00:02:22.777 like, 73 00:02:22.855 --> 00:02:23.183 Arabic, 74 00:02:23.449 --> 00:02:23.699 you know, 75 00:02:24.308 --> 00:02:24.621 coming in. 76 00:02:24.622 --> 00:02:24.668 Oh, 77 00:02:24.669 --> 00:02:24.902 wow. 78 00:02:26.321 --> 00:02:26.842 travelers. 79 00:02:26.843 --> 00:02:28.143 And this was in Minnesota. 80 00:02:28.284 --> 00:02:29.163 So you could imagine, 81 00:02:29.225 --> 00:02:29.683 Pauline, 82 00:02:29.725 --> 00:02:34.573 how like these small kids coming from the West or the Midwest, 83 00:02:34.612 --> 00:02:36.448 and all of a sudden you're seeing all these exotic, 84 00:02:36.511 --> 00:02:38.050 wonderful looking people just going, 85 00:02:38.229 --> 00:02:38.472 wow, 86 00:02:38.534 --> 00:02:39.214 what is this? 87 00:02:39.737 --> 00:02:41.354 And they had a lot of folks from Europe, 88 00:02:41.355 --> 00:02:46.636 but I just really remember early memories of watching people from the Middle East come through for treatment. 89 00:02:47.417 --> 00:02:47.839 And I thought, 90 00:02:47.886 --> 00:02:48.964 this is so cool. 91 00:02:49.542 --> 00:02:49.729 Like, 92 00:02:49.776 --> 00:02:51.011 I like this environment. 93 00:02:51.089 --> 00:02:51.542 I like. 94 00:02:52.344 --> 00:02:54.327 being with people from all around the world. 95 00:02:54.526 --> 00:02:56.069 They had translators with them, 96 00:02:56.148 --> 00:02:56.370 right? 97 00:02:56.390 --> 00:02:57.831 So I was hearing this. 98 00:02:58.550 --> 00:03:02.097 And I think somehow that embedded really deeply in me. 99 00:03:03.214 --> 00:03:05.800 And my parents also helped to stoke some of that. 100 00:03:05.878 --> 00:03:07.097 So we had 101 00:03:07.480 --> 00:03:11.198 Crow Native American kids as foster kids in my family. 102 00:03:11.730 --> 00:03:19.245 So that's also like an intercultural way that we were integrating and they were integrating with us when I was growing up. 103 00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:21.160 Also, 104 00:03:21.461 --> 00:03:23.202 I had a brother who was adopted. 105 00:03:23.682 --> 00:03:26.606 So I think I've just been in these very different kinds of cultural... 106 00:03:26.626 --> 00:03:28.688 Very mixed family in the end. 107 00:03:28.731 --> 00:03:31.052 Lots of pieces coming together. 108 00:03:31.130 --> 00:03:31.372 Wow. 109 00:03:31.833 --> 00:03:31.950 Yeah, 110 00:03:32.052 --> 00:03:34.653 which you wouldn't expect in the middle of Montana, 111 00:03:34.794 --> 00:03:39.559 like a very traditionally boring white kind of part of the country, 112 00:03:39.684 --> 00:03:39.856 right? 113 00:03:40.059 --> 00:03:40.919 But all of a sudden, 114 00:03:40.966 --> 00:03:44.966 I started having all these fun cultural experiences. 115 00:03:45.028 --> 00:03:47.903 And so when I was working my way through college, 116 00:03:48.387 --> 00:03:49.481 thinking about what I want to do, 117 00:03:49.916 --> 00:03:52.239 I really knew I wanted to live and work internationally. 118 00:03:52.358 --> 00:03:55.563 That was something that struck a chord. 119 00:03:55.641 --> 00:04:00.262 And so I focused my MBA at Pepperdine on global business, 120 00:04:00.348 --> 00:04:04.473 which then allowed me to do a little bit of coursework at Oxford in the UK, 121 00:04:04.708 --> 00:04:05.372 which was great. 122 00:04:05.473 --> 00:04:07.012 We went on a seminar in China, 123 00:04:07.809 --> 00:04:10.668 all through China and into Tibet even. 124 00:04:11.403 --> 00:04:14.106 So that was great because I had not had Asian experience before. 125 00:04:14.512 --> 00:04:14.747 You know, 126 00:04:14.748 --> 00:04:15.418 I'd been to Europe, 127 00:04:15.434 --> 00:04:16.497 but certainly not Asia. 128 00:04:16.622 --> 00:04:16.747 So 129 00:04:17.497 --> 00:04:18.418 I just really. 130 00:04:19.412 --> 00:04:27.722 continue to be drawn to sort of opening up my eyes and opening up where I could be in the world and how I could contribute. 131 00:04:28.284 --> 00:04:29.479 So that's how it got started. 132 00:04:29.745 --> 00:04:29.886 Yeah. 133 00:04:29.887 --> 00:04:30.620 All right. 134 00:04:30.621 --> 00:04:30.979 So yeah, 135 00:04:31.065 --> 00:04:33.808 it started quite deeply early on. 136 00:04:34.245 --> 00:04:34.784 I think so. 137 00:04:35.269 --> 00:04:35.714 I think so. 138 00:04:35.886 --> 00:04:38.011 I didn't necessarily have a normal childhood, 139 00:04:38.026 --> 00:04:39.198 and I think that was all right. 140 00:04:39.948 --> 00:04:40.214 It was, 141 00:04:40.573 --> 00:04:40.839 you know, 142 00:04:40.995 --> 00:04:42.636 it was a different way to be, 143 00:04:42.792 --> 00:04:44.839 and certainly I was having different experiences. 144 00:04:45.698 --> 00:04:51.853 But I guess that sort of shapes also that mindset to go abroad and do something different. 145 00:04:51.974 --> 00:04:53.220 And once you arrive. 146 00:04:54.140 --> 00:04:54.781 It's fine, 147 00:04:54.901 --> 00:04:55.221 you know, 148 00:04:56.062 --> 00:04:57.002 I'm just ready for it. 149 00:04:57.502 --> 00:04:57.663 Yeah. 150 00:04:57.844 --> 00:04:58.584 And I think like, 151 00:04:58.604 --> 00:04:59.006 you know, 152 00:04:59.147 --> 00:04:59.424 well, 153 00:04:59.764 --> 00:04:59.967 too, 154 00:05:00.065 --> 00:05:02.866 that if you're kind of choosing that expat life, 155 00:05:03.413 --> 00:05:05.030 you really rely on yourself a lot. 156 00:05:05.194 --> 00:05:05.733 And you know, 157 00:05:05.834 --> 00:05:05.975 yeah, 158 00:05:06.030 --> 00:05:07.733 but I think you discover it once you're there. 159 00:05:08.311 --> 00:05:09.077 Exactly right. 160 00:05:09.131 --> 00:05:10.663 Like if you didn't before, 161 00:05:10.756 --> 00:05:11.522 you know it now. 162 00:05:11.678 --> 00:05:11.959 You know, 163 00:05:11.975 --> 00:05:12.725 you can do it now. 164 00:05:13.100 --> 00:05:13.256 Yeah, 165 00:05:13.397 --> 00:05:13.944 exactly. 166 00:05:14.038 --> 00:05:19.709 But I do think some of that independence and the self-reliance piece is really a good underpinning. 167 00:05:20.459 --> 00:05:22.725 And I had that early on just because of. 168 00:05:22.864 --> 00:05:24.806 my family situation and what was happening. 169 00:05:25.347 --> 00:05:28.250 So I think that also set me up for success, 170 00:05:28.289 --> 00:05:28.949 to be honest. 171 00:05:29.371 --> 00:05:30.551 So yeah. 172 00:05:32.176 --> 00:05:37.699 Let's fast forward then you're working in these large pharma medical brands. 173 00:05:37.855 --> 00:05:45.058 How does your first like big move come up and how do you navigate it? 174 00:05:45.730 --> 00:05:45.840 Yeah, 175 00:05:45.965 --> 00:05:46.871 that's a good question. 176 00:05:46.949 --> 00:05:52.668 So I owe a lot to Bob Azelby at Amgen for allowing me the chance. 177 00:05:52.904 --> 00:05:57.449 to really move abroad and move my career in another direction. 178 00:05:57.527 --> 00:06:03.336 So I had a lot of support from my senior management team at Amgen to go to Zug. 179 00:06:03.477 --> 00:06:04.133 So at the time, 180 00:06:04.172 --> 00:06:04.937 I would be living in 181 00:06:05.320 --> 00:06:06.094 Zurich, Switzerland, 182 00:06:06.095 --> 00:06:06.859 but working in Zug. 183 00:06:06.860 --> 00:06:07.797 Okay. 184 00:06:08.359 --> 00:06:08.742 And yeah, 185 00:06:08.820 --> 00:06:10.898 there were two job opportunities that came up, 186 00:06:10.914 --> 00:06:13.227 and I was talking to the management teams over there, 187 00:06:13.430 --> 00:06:14.664 and we decided on a fit, 188 00:06:14.727 --> 00:06:16.773 and that's why I made the move. 189 00:06:17.211 --> 00:06:17.320 So, 190 00:06:18.492 --> 00:06:18.633 yeah, 191 00:06:18.695 --> 00:06:18.992 again, 192 00:06:19.445 --> 00:06:20.930 I can't stress enough how. 193 00:06:22.672 --> 00:06:29.577 My opportunities have really been shaped by what these corporations have allowed me to do. 194 00:06:29.718 --> 00:06:30.100 Yeah, 195 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:30.624 exactly. 196 00:06:31.960 --> 00:06:32.241 I mean, 197 00:06:32.280 --> 00:06:34.561 it's great when they're there and you can actually see them. 198 00:06:35.147 --> 00:06:35.788 Totally. 199 00:06:36.124 --> 00:06:36.929 It's totally great. 200 00:06:36.983 --> 00:06:37.405 And again, 201 00:06:37.827 --> 00:06:40.202 like kind of still pulling on that thread a little bit, 202 00:06:40.233 --> 00:06:40.468 you know, 203 00:06:40.483 --> 00:06:42.311 there were other expats there like me. 204 00:06:42.952 --> 00:06:45.999 So all of a sudden you start having really interesting friends, 205 00:06:46.077 --> 00:06:46.280 right? 206 00:06:46.358 --> 00:06:47.218 Italian friends, 207 00:06:47.389 --> 00:06:48.171 French friends. 208 00:06:48.852 --> 00:06:49.532 Swiss friends, 209 00:06:49.713 --> 00:06:56.395 everybody kind of coming together and people who have lived and worked abroad before and who are either raising all these, 210 00:06:56.512 --> 00:06:56.751 you know, 211 00:06:56.798 --> 00:07:00.274 multicultural families or families who speak multiple languages. 212 00:07:00.735 --> 00:07:03.196 It just really enriches your life. 213 00:07:03.235 --> 00:07:05.391 And I think that's what I was drawn to. 214 00:07:05.438 --> 00:07:06.688 And that's why I stayed so long. 215 00:07:06.735 --> 00:07:08.454 I was in Switzerland for about six years. 216 00:07:09.329 --> 00:07:09.454 Oh, 217 00:07:09.532 --> 00:07:09.673 yeah. 218 00:07:09.735 --> 00:07:10.173 So pretty. 219 00:07:10.798 --> 00:07:10.970 Yeah. 220 00:07:10.971 --> 00:07:11.860 So pretty long time. 221 00:07:12.173 --> 00:07:12.298 And, 222 00:07:12.376 --> 00:07:12.751 you know, 223 00:07:12.876 --> 00:07:14.891 as you live in a country for a long time, 224 00:07:15.313 --> 00:07:16.673 you definitely start. 225 00:07:17.088 --> 00:07:18.670 really changing at a core level. 226 00:07:19.130 --> 00:07:21.952 And I remember coming back to the US and going to Costco, 227 00:07:22.175 --> 00:07:22.413 you know, 228 00:07:22.452 --> 00:07:24.096 those big bulk stores. 229 00:07:24.315 --> 00:07:24.456 Yeah, 230 00:07:24.457 --> 00:07:25.776 because I know you have them in France. 231 00:07:26.518 --> 00:07:27.596 And I was overwhelmed. 232 00:07:27.698 --> 00:07:32.042 I literally wanted just to sit down because the Migros and the Cope grocery store, 233 00:07:32.104 --> 00:07:32.823 there was nothing. 234 00:07:33.026 --> 00:07:35.323 They're tiny in Switzerland. 235 00:07:35.324 --> 00:07:36.292 It's like in Paris. 236 00:07:36.354 --> 00:07:37.089 It's like the city, 237 00:07:38.073 --> 00:07:39.245 the city stop shops, 238 00:07:39.292 --> 00:07:40.010 basically. 239 00:07:40.104 --> 00:07:40.510 Totally. 240 00:07:40.604 --> 00:07:41.573 And then all of a sudden, 241 00:07:41.589 --> 00:07:43.432 you have like these massive warehouses. 242 00:07:43.854 --> 00:07:45.651 And I remember feeling overwhelmed. 243 00:07:46.884 --> 00:07:47.245 I thought, 244 00:07:47.305 --> 00:07:47.805 oh my God, 245 00:07:47.865 --> 00:07:48.787 this is interesting. 246 00:07:48.806 --> 00:07:51.390 This is definitely reverse culture shock. 247 00:07:52.511 --> 00:07:52.629 And 248 00:07:53.050 --> 00:07:55.632 I had to turn around to go out to the car because I was like, 249 00:07:55.633 --> 00:07:56.578 I just need a minute. 250 00:07:56.672 --> 00:07:56.890 Wow. 251 00:07:57.015 --> 00:07:58.273 I need a minute. 252 00:07:58.274 --> 00:08:00.336 I need to decompress because it was like overwhelming. 253 00:08:00.757 --> 00:08:02.547 And which is strange as an American, 254 00:08:02.562 --> 00:08:05.781 because obviously I had done that a lot before and it didn't phase me. 255 00:08:06.203 --> 00:08:07.437 But after so many years, 256 00:08:07.890 --> 00:08:09.812 you really do become rewired, 257 00:08:10.312 --> 00:08:11.343 maybe is a good way to say it. 258 00:08:11.750 --> 00:08:12.187 So yeah, 259 00:08:12.828 --> 00:08:13.312 interesting. 260 00:08:14.015 --> 00:08:14.187 Yeah, 261 00:08:14.359 --> 00:08:14.765 definitely. 262 00:08:14.766 --> 00:08:16.047 That's funny to see. 263 00:08:16.528 --> 00:08:16.908 How much, 264 00:08:16.968 --> 00:08:17.329 yeah, 265 00:08:17.469 --> 00:08:24.952 just that small little thing that you were so used to just becomes impossible coming back after. 266 00:08:25.156 --> 00:08:26.359 Coming back. 267 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:28.359 I think when we talk about reverse culture shock, 268 00:08:28.437 --> 00:08:29.882 sometimes we just think of, 269 00:08:30.023 --> 00:08:30.163 oh, 270 00:08:30.960 --> 00:08:33.906 just general feeling of not feeling in place. 271 00:08:34.499 --> 00:08:41.671 But we never really pinpoint those tiny things that are just so complicated after a few years. 272 00:08:42.499 --> 00:08:42.671 Yeah, 273 00:08:42.859 --> 00:08:44.296 and you'll appreciate this one. 274 00:08:44.297 --> 00:08:44.499 And so. 275 00:08:45.596 --> 00:08:46.777 I also had a time, 276 00:08:46.818 --> 00:08:47.238 excuse me, 277 00:08:47.939 --> 00:08:49.400 I had a time when I was at the airport. 278 00:08:49.963 --> 00:08:50.099 And, 279 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:50.521 you know, 280 00:08:50.560 --> 00:08:51.002 in Europe, 281 00:08:51.283 --> 00:08:51.482 really, 282 00:08:51.502 --> 00:08:53.084 when you're standing in line at the airport, 283 00:08:53.142 --> 00:08:54.166 nobody talks to anybody, 284 00:08:54.228 --> 00:08:54.447 right? 285 00:08:54.486 --> 00:08:55.002 We're quiet. 286 00:08:55.384 --> 00:08:56.470 There's not music playing. 287 00:08:57.369 --> 00:08:58.666 Everybody's keeping their voice low, 288 00:08:58.791 --> 00:08:59.009 right? 289 00:08:59.088 --> 00:09:00.853 You're just kind of existing. 290 00:09:01.345 --> 00:09:02.033 But in America, 291 00:09:02.158 --> 00:09:05.033 people talk to you when you're standing in line at the airport, 292 00:09:05.111 --> 00:09:05.330 right? 293 00:09:05.798 --> 00:09:07.158 Or when you go to the ticket counter. 294 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:07.673 Where are you coming from? 295 00:09:07.674 --> 00:09:07.814 Yeah, 296 00:09:07.923 --> 00:09:08.392 exactly. 297 00:09:08.752 --> 00:09:10.439 And coming back again from Switzerland, 298 00:09:10.486 --> 00:09:10.939 I was like, 299 00:09:10.955 --> 00:09:11.080 oh, 300 00:09:11.095 --> 00:09:11.486 my God, 301 00:09:11.517 --> 00:09:13.064 this feels so invasive. 302 00:09:13.142 --> 00:09:13.283 Like. 303 00:09:13.736 --> 00:09:13.877 Like, 304 00:09:13.878 --> 00:09:14.838 who are these people? 305 00:09:14.918 --> 00:09:16.379 Why are they asking me questions? 306 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:17.020 And then I'm like, 307 00:09:17.059 --> 00:09:17.320 okay, 308 00:09:17.820 --> 00:09:18.102 kind of, 309 00:09:18.160 --> 00:09:19.820 you got to flip into your American side. 310 00:09:19.821 --> 00:09:20.305 Flip back, 311 00:09:20.422 --> 00:09:20.543 yeah. 312 00:09:20.544 --> 00:09:20.625 Yeah, 313 00:09:20.626 --> 00:09:22.164 flip back, 314 00:09:22.165 --> 00:09:22.281 right? 315 00:09:22.282 --> 00:09:22.844 You have to adjust, 316 00:09:22.969 --> 00:09:23.430 exactly. 317 00:09:24.945 --> 00:09:25.352 All right. 318 00:09:26.047 --> 00:09:26.992 Coming back to 319 00:09:27.633 --> 00:09:29.070 Switzerland more specifically. 320 00:09:30.305 --> 00:09:30.555 So you, 321 00:09:32.102 --> 00:09:34.024 I know in the back and forth of emails, 322 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:38.945 you mentioned a little bit that cultural difference in terms of work. 323 00:09:39.149 --> 00:09:40.649 You were moving with work. 324 00:09:40.664 --> 00:09:42.149 So you were in the same company. 325 00:09:43.172 --> 00:09:53.561 But how did you adapt and just sort of intake this new environment of work specifically? 326 00:09:54.233 --> 00:09:54.393 Yeah, 327 00:09:54.993 --> 00:09:55.834 two things to that. 328 00:09:56.034 --> 00:09:56.234 One, 329 00:09:56.293 --> 00:10:00.873 I was lucky enough to have what I'd call like a cultural attache assigned to me. 330 00:10:00.955 --> 00:10:01.834 So I had a few. 331 00:10:02.255 --> 00:10:02.513 Wow. 332 00:10:03.052 --> 00:10:03.357 I know, 333 00:10:03.435 --> 00:10:03.732 which is, 334 00:10:03.818 --> 00:10:04.115 again, 335 00:10:04.373 --> 00:10:06.193 that's the plus of a corporation, 336 00:10:06.216 --> 00:10:07.216 at least at the time. 337 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:09.654 I don't think many corporations are doing what they did. 338 00:10:09.795 --> 00:10:11.115 It's the first time I hear about it. 339 00:10:11.412 --> 00:10:11.584 Oh, 340 00:10:11.693 --> 00:10:11.943 okay, 341 00:10:11.990 --> 00:10:12.271 cool. 342 00:10:12.318 --> 00:10:12.615 All right. 343 00:10:12.630 --> 00:10:13.615 So this is good to know. 344 00:10:13.974 --> 00:10:16.459 So when I moved in 2014, 345 00:10:16.693 --> 00:10:17.459 pharma companies, 346 00:10:17.474 --> 00:10:18.240 at least back then, 347 00:10:18.318 --> 00:10:22.834 were still giving kind of these more complete packages where they really wanted. 348 00:10:23.421 --> 00:10:25.904 you to be successful when you move to a new country, 349 00:10:26.003 --> 00:10:26.185 right? 350 00:10:26.204 --> 00:10:27.607 Because I'm a reflection of them. 351 00:10:27.665 --> 00:10:29.029 They want me to have a good experience. 352 00:10:29.030 --> 00:10:30.087 And obviously, 353 00:10:30.548 --> 00:10:30.669 yeah, 354 00:10:30.868 --> 00:10:32.810 they want me to have a high quality work output, 355 00:10:32.849 --> 00:10:33.052 right? 356 00:10:33.568 --> 00:10:33.693 So 357 00:10:34.630 --> 00:10:37.372 I had a cultural attache where I had a few sessions, 358 00:10:37.411 --> 00:10:39.685 maybe three or four with her, 359 00:10:39.982 --> 00:10:45.279 and I could chat about what it was like for me to integrate into Swiss society. 360 00:10:45.841 --> 00:10:50.888 So she was sort of a safe zone where she wasn't attached to the company and she wasn't- Okay, 361 00:10:50.889 --> 00:10:51.841 so she was external. 362 00:10:52.281 --> 00:10:52.421 Yeah, 363 00:10:52.481 --> 00:10:53.421 so she was external, 364 00:10:53.461 --> 00:10:53.961 which was good. 365 00:10:53.981 --> 00:10:56.423 So you could say whatever it was you needed to say. 366 00:10:57.044 --> 00:11:01.243 And one thing that stuck out in my mind that she taught me is just remember, 367 00:11:01.282 --> 00:11:02.524 when you move to a new country, 368 00:11:03.126 --> 00:11:06.782 you can keep the things you like and you can let go of the things you don't. 369 00:11:06.860 --> 00:11:09.548 So she gave that kind of metaphor of a backpack, 370 00:11:09.610 --> 00:11:09.798 right? 371 00:11:10.142 --> 00:11:17.251 Just fill your backpack with the stuff you love about the country and let go of the stuff that you don't want to integrate. 372 00:11:17.267 --> 00:11:19.267 Do you mean of the old country or of the new country? 373 00:11:19.610 --> 00:11:19.782 Well, 374 00:11:20.373 --> 00:11:21.694 Of the new country and, 375 00:11:21.915 --> 00:11:22.194 you know, 376 00:11:22.396 --> 00:11:22.614 also, 377 00:11:22.655 --> 00:11:22.995 I guess, 378 00:11:23.017 --> 00:11:23.837 of the old too, 379 00:11:23.956 --> 00:11:24.177 right? 380 00:11:24.216 --> 00:11:24.396 Like 381 00:11:24.798 --> 00:11:29.400 Americans have a tendency to talk really loud and can be a bit overwhelming. 382 00:11:29.806 --> 00:11:32.384 Like I definitely worked on dialing that down. 383 00:11:33.650 --> 00:11:34.064 I had, 384 00:11:34.165 --> 00:11:34.790 I know it's, 385 00:11:35.048 --> 00:11:35.228 well, 386 00:11:35.892 --> 00:11:36.689 any tourist in Paris. 387 00:11:36.690 --> 00:11:37.736 I've heard that a lot. 388 00:11:37.876 --> 00:11:38.017 Yeah, 389 00:11:38.423 --> 00:11:38.876 exactly. 390 00:11:39.017 --> 00:11:40.376 Any Parisian can say, 391 00:11:40.454 --> 00:11:40.954 please, 392 00:11:41.251 --> 00:11:42.189 the American tourist. 393 00:11:42.190 --> 00:11:43.314 I've heard that so many times. 394 00:11:43.892 --> 00:11:44.314 I get it. 395 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:44.892 Right. 396 00:11:45.282 --> 00:11:49.126 And so like another kind of key piece to that is I had a good. 397 00:11:49.921 --> 00:12:16.882 Swiss friend who was on a work team and she said one day she pulled me aside and she said hey listen you're way too positive like this is coming off kind of like saccharine sweet you know we can't really buy this over here and I was thinking oh my god I'm just kind of enthusiastic right like I really we're trying to launch this drug there's a lot of good energy you know we have to do a lot of work all the time and she's like you might just want to like dial it back a little and 398 00:12:17.177 --> 00:12:17.677 I tell you, 399 00:12:17.697 --> 00:12:19.217 that was great advice. 400 00:12:19.278 --> 00:12:19.557 And so 401 00:12:20.198 --> 00:12:21.139 I worked on that. 402 00:12:21.780 --> 00:12:21.998 Yeah. 403 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:22.698 I mean, 404 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:23.897 I completely get it. 405 00:12:24.037 --> 00:12:24.217 And 406 00:12:24.998 --> 00:12:26.862 I do feel the same way at the same time. 407 00:12:26.955 --> 00:12:28.401 And in a way, 408 00:12:29.221 --> 00:12:31.784 I also try to see both sides and sometimes wonder, 409 00:12:31.862 --> 00:12:35.323 but can we not let people just be themselves? 410 00:12:36.088 --> 00:12:45.166 And that's what I find very hard is where is that limit of how much of yourself can you actually be? 411 00:12:45.823 --> 00:12:46.026 Right. 412 00:12:48.887 --> 00:12:49.909 in this environment. 413 00:12:50.848 --> 00:12:52.450 I think you bring up a good question. 414 00:12:52.473 --> 00:12:53.911 And I think some of it is, 415 00:12:54.754 --> 00:12:54.997 you know, 416 00:12:54.998 --> 00:12:57.997 if you're going to be an expat and you want to be successful at it, 417 00:12:58.356 --> 00:12:59.481 you have to be okay. 418 00:12:59.754 --> 00:13:00.997 You have to play along with the game. 419 00:13:01.379 --> 00:13:02.395 But in any company, 420 00:13:02.489 --> 00:13:03.301 it's a little bit like that. 421 00:13:03.395 --> 00:13:06.739 You have to play along with the politics or whatever it is. 422 00:13:07.082 --> 00:13:07.270 Yeah. 423 00:13:07.411 --> 00:13:11.676 And I think you have to be willing to pull pieces out of yourself and look at them, 424 00:13:12.551 --> 00:13:15.067 which you don't do when you're living in your home culture, 425 00:13:15.068 --> 00:13:15.207 right? 426 00:13:15.625 --> 00:13:15.745 Yeah, 427 00:13:15.825 --> 00:13:16.607 because you're the norm. 428 00:13:16.608 --> 00:13:17.467 Because yeah, 429 00:13:17.526 --> 00:13:17.968 exactly. 430 00:13:18.028 --> 00:13:19.448 You're kind of surrounded by what you know. 431 00:13:19.528 --> 00:13:20.911 And so that was, 432 00:13:21.271 --> 00:13:22.032 she gave me really, 433 00:13:22.091 --> 00:13:23.032 really great advice. 434 00:13:23.052 --> 00:13:23.353 And so 435 00:13:24.396 --> 00:13:29.458 I was able to kind of step outside of myself and start looking at my behaviors and adjusting them. 436 00:13:29.841 --> 00:13:30.497 And honestly, 437 00:13:30.583 --> 00:13:31.138 she was right. 438 00:13:31.139 --> 00:13:32.224 It didn't make a difference. 439 00:13:32.380 --> 00:13:36.302 Because we- So you felt that the relationships shifted also. 440 00:13:36.786 --> 00:13:37.224 Exactly. 441 00:13:37.302 --> 00:13:42.208 Because I think once you're willing to change and show that you like being in the country, 442 00:13:42.286 --> 00:13:43.677 you want to work with the team. 443 00:13:44.061 --> 00:13:45.422 you're happy to adjust, 444 00:13:45.922 --> 00:13:47.805 then also the people feel like, 445 00:13:47.864 --> 00:13:48.086 okay, 446 00:13:48.145 --> 00:13:48.325 well, 447 00:13:48.586 --> 00:13:48.825 you know, 448 00:13:48.946 --> 00:13:49.165 she's, 449 00:13:49.688 --> 00:13:50.727 she's taking this seriously. 450 00:13:50.766 --> 00:13:50.887 Yeah, 451 00:13:50.888 --> 00:13:51.790 we can work together. 452 00:13:52.067 --> 00:13:53.028 And we can work together. 453 00:13:53.168 --> 00:13:56.536 So I just remember that it was a watershed moment. 454 00:13:56.833 --> 00:13:56.973 And 455 00:13:57.512 --> 00:13:59.958 I owe her a lot for that comment. 456 00:14:00.293 --> 00:14:00.512 Yeah, 457 00:14:00.684 --> 00:14:01.184 but I mean, 458 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:05.200 it's amazing how much effort they actually put into the expats move. 459 00:14:05.215 --> 00:14:05.778 And it's great, 460 00:14:05.856 --> 00:14:06.590 because I mean, 461 00:14:06.637 --> 00:14:10.059 it definitely makes it much more successful, 462 00:14:10.153 --> 00:14:11.106 the fact that there's 463 00:14:11.937 --> 00:14:14.659 an entire support and it's just not financial. 464 00:14:14.800 --> 00:14:19.964 It's also really the mental health and the whole adjustment of life. 465 00:14:20.362 --> 00:14:21.550 And I think that's really, 466 00:14:21.604 --> 00:14:22.464 really important. 467 00:14:23.847 --> 00:14:26.292 Even if people don't move with a corporation, 468 00:14:26.354 --> 00:14:26.534 right? 469 00:14:26.550 --> 00:14:30.136 If you could find a local who maybe has lived and worked in other countries, 470 00:14:30.479 --> 00:14:33.073 just to have someone as a touchstone to say, 471 00:14:33.136 --> 00:14:33.323 hey, 472 00:14:33.604 --> 00:14:34.292 is this normal? 473 00:14:34.386 --> 00:14:35.167 I'm feeling this. 474 00:14:35.604 --> 00:14:36.058 How is that? 475 00:14:36.339 --> 00:14:36.604 You know, 476 00:14:36.636 --> 00:14:37.526 how could you see it? 477 00:14:37.854 --> 00:14:39.026 Am I overreacting, 478 00:14:39.058 --> 00:14:39.839 underreacting? 479 00:14:40.323 --> 00:14:40.933 It's just good to 480 00:14:41.077 --> 00:14:54.088 you know have people to bounce things off of so that was yeah that was a good part of that move for sure okay um let's move on to the bit more touchy topic about 481 00:14:54.754 --> 00:14:55.415 Grief piece. 482 00:14:55.515 --> 00:14:56.717 I know when we move abroad, 483 00:14:58.598 --> 00:14:59.338 we miss things. 484 00:14:59.877 --> 00:15:00.920 You're far from family. 485 00:15:01.299 --> 00:15:01.701 And yeah, 486 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:02.483 unfortunately, 487 00:15:04.486 --> 00:15:05.041 things happen. 488 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:08.049 You don't always make it back on time. 489 00:15:08.127 --> 00:15:13.065 Can you talk us through a little bit that piece and how you were able to manage it also? 490 00:15:13.752 --> 00:15:13.908 Yeah, 491 00:15:14.408 --> 00:15:16.236 I think that's, 492 00:15:16.330 --> 00:15:16.861 as you know, 493 00:15:17.049 --> 00:15:17.299 right, 494 00:15:17.361 --> 00:15:18.596 because you're living the life too. 495 00:15:18.643 --> 00:15:23.236 That is one of the hardest pieces with being an expat is that. 496 00:15:23.634 --> 00:15:27.258 You miss big milestones with your families and your extended families. 497 00:15:28.199 --> 00:15:29.879 And you sort of become like, 498 00:15:30.461 --> 00:15:30.679 you know, 499 00:15:30.680 --> 00:15:35.144 a little planet that orbits on the outside sometime of that family, 500 00:15:35.488 --> 00:15:36.566 core family stuff. 501 00:15:37.207 --> 00:15:38.488 So in my case, 502 00:15:39.488 --> 00:15:39.730 you know, 503 00:15:39.731 --> 00:15:41.418 I was in Switzerland for about six years. 504 00:15:41.512 --> 00:15:42.949 And then when COVID hit, 505 00:15:43.058 --> 00:15:49.355 I had the opportunity with the company I was working for at the time to either take a job in Boston or take. 506 00:15:50.294 --> 00:15:51.035 just a package, 507 00:15:51.095 --> 00:15:51.275 right? 508 00:15:51.296 --> 00:15:52.817 Because they were starting to reorg, 509 00:15:52.936 --> 00:15:53.298 et cetera. 510 00:15:53.737 --> 00:16:03.225 So I decided to take the package and I really did it based on a big gut feeling that I had that something was not going to be right in my family. 511 00:16:03.350 --> 00:16:05.108 And when I talk about my family, 512 00:16:05.147 --> 00:16:06.397 it was my mom and dad. 513 00:16:06.398 --> 00:16:09.491 And then I have a brother who had Asperger's, 514 00:16:09.991 --> 00:16:10.960 rheumatoid arthritis, 515 00:16:10.975 --> 00:16:12.460 a lot of health complications. 516 00:16:12.491 --> 00:16:14.038 So lovely, 517 00:16:14.553 --> 00:16:15.913 but he had so many challenges, 518 00:16:15.975 --> 00:16:16.132 right? 519 00:16:16.178 --> 00:16:17.053 That he was dealing with. 520 00:16:17.897 --> 00:16:18.022 So 521 00:16:18.786 --> 00:16:20.288 I went with my gut feeling and I said, 522 00:16:20.308 --> 00:16:20.508 okay, 523 00:16:20.509 --> 00:16:21.329 I'll take the package. 524 00:16:21.729 --> 00:16:25.913 I ended up moving back to the US and then probably a week later, 525 00:16:27.394 --> 00:16:28.253 not thanks to me, 526 00:16:28.354 --> 00:16:28.776 by the way, 527 00:16:29.534 --> 00:16:30.261 thanks to my brother, 528 00:16:30.761 --> 00:16:32.940 who had came over for birthday cake. 529 00:16:32.941 --> 00:16:33.698 It was my birthday. 530 00:16:34.144 --> 00:16:37.503 And he was asymptomatic with COVID and then gave my mom, 531 00:16:37.565 --> 00:16:37.737 dad, 532 00:16:37.769 --> 00:16:38.581 and I COVID. 533 00:16:38.972 --> 00:16:42.597 And none of us knew that because he wasn't expressing any symptoms. 534 00:16:43.003 --> 00:16:43.972 Exactly. 535 00:16:44.394 --> 00:16:44.909 So it's not. 536 00:16:45.118 --> 00:17:07.842 like obviously his fault it was just yeah no of course I mean everyone can get you don't always yeah totally and you know this was before the vaccines had come out right so I think this was maybe 2020 in that time period and or 2019 the I had gotten pretty sick so I was down for about two months. 537 00:17:08.076 --> 00:17:08.764 My dad, 538 00:17:08.826 --> 00:17:09.186 however, 539 00:17:09.264 --> 00:17:10.420 was one of these that... 540 00:17:10.966 --> 00:17:20.053 was hit really hard and we had to take him to the hospital and he even had to go through rehabilitation and my mom had gotten it but she bounced back quicker than anyone. 541 00:17:21.155 --> 00:17:28.725 So that whole COVID kind of piece kicked off some downstream effects in my family and after 542 00:17:29.085 --> 00:17:31.069 COVID I stayed in the U.S. 543 00:17:31.070 --> 00:17:38.053 and I was working for a startup company and my mom's cancer came back and she had been struggling with heart disease. 544 00:17:39.374 --> 00:17:40.054 heart failure. 545 00:17:40.114 --> 00:17:42.355 And so that had also kicked into another gear. 546 00:17:42.836 --> 00:17:46.935 And she was starting to go through the early stages of decline. 547 00:17:47.459 --> 00:17:48.920 So yeah, 548 00:17:49.076 --> 00:17:52.357 and it was as sad as that is to go through, 549 00:17:52.513 --> 00:17:58.763 I was so grateful that I had the opportunity to be back in the US at that time. 550 00:17:58.764 --> 00:17:59.138 To be there. 551 00:17:59.826 --> 00:17:59.982 Yeah, 552 00:18:00.201 --> 00:18:01.138 because honestly, 553 00:18:01.435 --> 00:18:02.763 as you probably know, 554 00:18:02.841 --> 00:18:04.654 or if you have friends who have parents who are aging, 555 00:18:04.935 --> 00:18:06.716 there's a lot of guilt sometimes that 556 00:18:07.150 --> 00:18:10.233 comes along with being an expat and living and working outside, 557 00:18:10.594 --> 00:18:11.133 being two, 558 00:18:11.215 --> 00:18:12.254 three thousand miles away. 559 00:18:12.934 --> 00:18:15.660 And so I had time to be with my mom, 560 00:18:16.543 --> 00:18:19.824 probably about a good year and a half before she had really, 561 00:18:19.903 --> 00:18:20.121 really, 562 00:18:20.199 --> 00:18:21.246 really gotten to... 563 00:18:22.426 --> 00:18:22.606 Yeah, 564 00:18:22.785 --> 00:18:23.184 exactly. 565 00:18:23.528 --> 00:18:29.168 And then I ended up moving over to Denmark and two weeks after I had moved to Copenhagen, 566 00:18:29.278 --> 00:18:30.199 my mom passed away. 567 00:18:31.215 --> 00:18:32.215 And yeah... 568 00:18:32.382 --> 00:18:33.883 That was an interesting story too. 569 00:18:34.043 --> 00:18:37.045 I'd gotten a phone call from my best friend's mom, 570 00:18:37.166 --> 00:18:38.787 who was kind of my second mother. 571 00:18:39.190 --> 00:18:41.069 When my mom was going through cancer treatments, 572 00:18:41.131 --> 00:18:42.569 I would stay with my best friend, 573 00:18:42.615 --> 00:18:43.756 Wendy and her mom. 574 00:18:44.537 --> 00:18:46.694 And my friend's mom, 575 00:18:46.780 --> 00:18:49.873 Renee called me on FaceTime and she usually, 576 00:18:50.201 --> 00:18:50.420 you know, 577 00:18:50.717 --> 00:18:52.717 doesn't like use video or whatever. 578 00:18:52.842 --> 00:18:59.123 And she talked to me for an hour and started reminiscing about my mom and about, 579 00:18:59.436 --> 00:18:59.670 you know, 580 00:18:59.764 --> 00:19:00.764 her cancer journey. 581 00:19:01.170 --> 00:19:01.295 and 582 00:19:01.518 --> 00:19:05.042 heart disease journey and just what we had all gone through as a community. 583 00:19:05.661 --> 00:19:06.704 And when I hung up the phone, 584 00:19:06.743 --> 00:19:07.083 I thought, 585 00:19:07.724 --> 00:19:08.685 that's really weird. 586 00:19:09.364 --> 00:19:09.606 You know, 587 00:19:09.607 --> 00:19:11.130 it's weird that she would call me. 588 00:19:11.591 --> 00:19:11.708 No. 589 00:19:12.310 --> 00:19:15.669 And my mom was still alive when she did that the very next day. 590 00:19:15.849 --> 00:19:16.692 But she felt it. 591 00:19:16.989 --> 00:19:17.130 Yeah. 592 00:19:17.356 --> 00:19:17.521 Yeah. 593 00:19:17.692 --> 00:19:18.192 And somehow, 594 00:19:18.849 --> 00:19:19.911 somehow Renee felt that. 595 00:19:20.239 --> 00:19:21.177 So the very next day, 596 00:19:21.255 --> 00:19:25.802 my mom ended up going into the hospital and she passed away that night. 597 00:19:26.349 --> 00:19:30.130 And so it was such a strange combination of being connected. 598 00:19:30.318 --> 00:19:38.247 when I was sitting in my temporary apartment in Copenhagen and having this really long phone call with my second mom, 599 00:19:38.325 --> 00:19:43.669 and then my mother passed away the very next day. 600 00:19:44.231 --> 00:19:46.637 So I had to fly immediately back to Montana, 601 00:19:47.637 --> 00:19:49.872 do all of the funeral preparations. 602 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:52.262 There's a lot of paperwork that comes with death. 603 00:19:53.387 --> 00:19:54.622 It's kind of overwhelming. 604 00:19:55.106 --> 00:19:57.325 And then you're grieving and trying to do everything. 605 00:19:57.387 --> 00:19:57.669 And so. 606 00:19:59.418 --> 00:20:01.718 I've been fortunate from the standpoint that 607 00:20:02.218 --> 00:20:06.319 I've been given kind of these moments of break in my career, 608 00:20:06.980 --> 00:20:09.862 where I was able to choose what I wanted to be doing next, 609 00:20:09.917 --> 00:20:11.784 and that sort of helped buffer it. 610 00:20:11.878 --> 00:20:18.175 But I have good friends in Denmark who are trying to manage their aging parents, 611 00:20:18.565 --> 00:20:18.800 you know, 612 00:20:18.862 --> 00:20:19.659 from miles away, 613 00:20:19.722 --> 00:20:20.956 and it is overwhelming. 614 00:20:21.550 --> 00:20:23.425 And you don't ever feel like you're doing a good job, 615 00:20:23.659 --> 00:20:24.831 and you wish that you could be there. 616 00:20:24.847 --> 00:20:26.144 You're not in control of a lot, 617 00:20:26.145 --> 00:20:26.519 unfortunately, 618 00:20:26.520 --> 00:20:27.378 when you're that far. 619 00:20:27.503 --> 00:20:28.831 100%. 620 00:20:29.586 --> 00:20:29.766 Yeah, 621 00:20:30.387 --> 00:20:30.787 exactly. 622 00:20:30.867 --> 00:20:32.328 And you sometimes feel selfish, 623 00:20:32.389 --> 00:20:32.610 right? 624 00:20:32.668 --> 00:20:32.828 Like, 625 00:20:32.850 --> 00:20:33.190 it's like, 626 00:20:33.270 --> 00:20:33.488 okay, 627 00:20:33.512 --> 00:20:33.949 I'm living, 628 00:20:34.012 --> 00:20:36.313 I'm choosing to live this life where I'm in another country. 629 00:20:37.793 --> 00:20:38.176 But also, 630 00:20:38.238 --> 00:20:40.613 you can't stop what's happening anyway. 631 00:20:40.614 --> 00:20:40.715 Well, 632 00:20:40.716 --> 00:20:40.856 yeah, 633 00:20:40.957 --> 00:20:44.457 I think there's that piece of you can't stop your life either. 634 00:20:44.840 --> 00:20:48.660 And at the same time, 635 00:20:49.207 --> 00:20:54.567 there's also that I think there's a piece where the parents don't share that much over the phone. 636 00:20:54.754 --> 00:20:54.910 It's 637 00:20:55.550 --> 00:21:10.329 the conversations that you have as they're not as frequent with especially with time zone changes it just makes it so complicated that you're not on the phone every day and so it's more about catching up on the 638 00:21:10.383 --> 00:21:23.891 big information than actually going deep into like the day-to-day and getting to that point where they feel free to share what's actually going on and I think they're also scared to put that stress on you. 639 00:21:24.698 --> 00:21:27.461 probably don't overshare what's going on either, 640 00:21:27.601 --> 00:21:28.381 unfortunately. 641 00:21:29.021 --> 00:21:30.404 I think you're absolutely right. 642 00:21:30.443 --> 00:21:30.705 I mean, 643 00:21:30.744 --> 00:21:32.627 I think most parents want their children, 644 00:21:32.666 --> 00:21:37.291 like I'm sure your parents think you're doing wonderful things and you are, 645 00:21:37.431 --> 00:21:37.674 right? 646 00:21:37.713 --> 00:21:39.533 And it's exciting to watch you succeed. 647 00:21:40.150 --> 00:21:40.767 And you're right, 648 00:21:40.814 --> 00:21:42.330 you don't want to feel like a burden, 649 00:21:42.517 --> 00:21:46.845 but also it's hard to manage an aging parent if you don't know the truth. 650 00:21:47.408 --> 00:21:49.549 So what I started doing, 651 00:21:49.627 --> 00:21:52.830 which I'm sure many of your listeners do in my situation as well, 652 00:21:52.939 --> 00:21:53.111 is 653 00:21:53.550 --> 00:22:09.834 talk to the neighbors a lot right we had very good find that person of trust that totally and say okay what's really going on did you stop over the other day you know how is she looking how is he feeling etc yeah yeah i actually see that with my grandmother where she's lucky enough to have 654 00:22:09.849 --> 00:22:22.724 these very close neighbors that we've known for forever because my parents live 800 kilometers away from her so no one's close to interfere if something happens but there is that trust relationship with 655 00:22:23.454 --> 00:22:31.580 And with neighbors and deeds or a close family that might be around who has that external eye on a day to day, 656 00:22:31.603 --> 00:22:32.259 that's me. 657 00:22:32.900 --> 00:22:33.908 And it takes a village, 658 00:22:33.962 --> 00:22:34.228 right? 659 00:22:34.283 --> 00:22:35.025 It does really, 660 00:22:35.189 --> 00:22:39.892 you really do need additional people to help if you're going to live abroad successfully. 661 00:22:39.986 --> 00:22:40.111 So, 662 00:22:41.376 --> 00:22:41.486 yeah, 663 00:22:41.611 --> 00:22:43.501 so that's been an interesting piece. 664 00:22:43.502 --> 00:22:47.095 And then my brother passed away in January of this year, 665 00:22:47.205 --> 00:22:49.361 and that was very unexpected. 666 00:22:49.861 --> 00:22:52.658 So I was lucky enough to see him over the Christmas holiday. 667 00:22:53.406 --> 00:22:54.688 had gone back to Copenhagen. 668 00:22:54.728 --> 00:23:00.194 I think I was back in the city three weeks and I got a random phone call from my dad. 669 00:23:00.753 --> 00:23:02.796 I'm going down to meet the coroner. 670 00:23:02.913 --> 00:23:05.655 Your brother has passed away. 671 00:23:06.280 --> 00:23:08.601 And it was just sudden, 672 00:23:08.702 --> 00:23:09.296 very sudden. 673 00:23:10.015 --> 00:23:10.921 So yeah, 674 00:23:11.062 --> 00:23:14.780 sudden death due to complications from uncontrolled diabetes, 675 00:23:14.827 --> 00:23:17.233 I think is eventually what the coroner landed on. 676 00:23:17.812 --> 00:23:22.374 But that one took me by surprise because I thought I was 677 00:23:22.874 --> 00:23:25.596 probably going to need to move back to the U.S. 678 00:23:25.617 --> 00:23:30.041 at some point and help support my brother just because he had so many health challenges. 679 00:23:30.061 --> 00:23:31.459 And I was prepared to do that, 680 00:23:31.545 --> 00:23:31.701 right? 681 00:23:31.740 --> 00:23:33.225 That was always in the back of my mind, 682 00:23:33.787 --> 00:23:35.287 which was part of why I think 683 00:23:35.623 --> 00:23:37.670 I liked living the expat life. 684 00:23:37.990 --> 00:23:38.170 Yeah, 685 00:23:38.209 --> 00:23:41.537 because now is the time where you get to focus on yourself also. 686 00:23:42.537 --> 00:23:42.693 Yeah. 687 00:23:42.818 --> 00:23:43.068 And so, 688 00:23:43.256 --> 00:23:43.521 you know, 689 00:23:43.568 --> 00:23:44.709 you're having a great career, 690 00:23:44.818 --> 00:23:45.600 you're doing things, 691 00:23:45.631 --> 00:23:48.834 you're trying to make money because I was always thinking in the back of my mind, 692 00:23:49.256 --> 00:23:50.943 I've got a brother I need to support. 693 00:23:51.084 --> 00:23:52.521 So there's two of us I need to. 694 00:23:52.706 --> 00:23:53.207 care for. 695 00:23:54.927 --> 00:23:55.208 And so, 696 00:23:55.429 --> 00:23:55.548 yeah, 697 00:23:55.669 --> 00:23:58.353 his death has really thrown me. 698 00:23:58.451 --> 00:23:59.994 So now it's just my dad and I, 699 00:24:00.373 --> 00:24:00.615 and 700 00:24:01.091 --> 00:24:05.458 I made the choice to move back to where my dad is in Montana. 701 00:24:05.521 --> 00:24:07.201 So I'm now a lot closer to him. 702 00:24:08.623 --> 00:24:08.818 And 703 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:10.490 I think that's the right thing. 704 00:24:10.583 --> 00:24:11.912 But yeah, 705 00:24:12.787 --> 00:24:17.427 I think death and unpredictability of life really throws a wrench into, 706 00:24:17.818 --> 00:24:18.052 you know. 707 00:24:19.099 --> 00:24:19.240 Yeah. 708 00:24:19.537 --> 00:24:19.818 I mean, 709 00:24:19.958 --> 00:24:20.958 I think even if. 710 00:24:21.262 --> 00:24:22.143 You're not an expat. 711 00:24:22.223 --> 00:24:23.624 It's definitely going to shift something. 712 00:24:24.064 --> 00:24:27.529 You have that realization that people are going to leave at some point, 713 00:24:27.568 --> 00:24:29.611 so I have to be there. 714 00:24:30.267 --> 00:24:32.173 But when you're that far, 715 00:24:32.251 --> 00:24:35.798 you start counting how many times are you going to see them. 716 00:24:36.361 --> 00:24:36.579 Right. 717 00:24:36.658 --> 00:24:39.704 And just making that choice at some point of, 718 00:24:40.783 --> 00:24:41.048 well, 719 00:24:41.454 --> 00:24:45.579 I think now is the time and maybe later I'll go back out. 720 00:24:47.210 --> 00:24:47.330 Yeah, 721 00:24:47.450 --> 00:24:47.911 exactly. 722 00:24:48.031 --> 00:24:48.411 And you know, 723 00:24:48.571 --> 00:24:50.133 it's not like death is predictable, 724 00:24:50.373 --> 00:24:50.594 right? 725 00:24:50.793 --> 00:24:50.914 So 726 00:24:51.596 --> 00:24:52.857 I think to the, 727 00:24:53.455 --> 00:24:54.857 yeah, 728 00:24:54.858 --> 00:24:56.576 I think it's also important to, 729 00:24:56.639 --> 00:24:59.162 and your listeners know this quite well, 730 00:24:59.342 --> 00:25:01.287 it's expensive when you're an expat, 731 00:25:01.342 --> 00:25:01.545 right? 732 00:25:01.584 --> 00:25:02.107 You're always, 733 00:25:02.162 --> 00:25:06.076 when you're flying back and you're doing everything and absorbing all the cost. 734 00:25:06.451 --> 00:25:08.076 So I ended up flying back, 735 00:25:08.217 --> 00:25:08.451 you know, 736 00:25:08.498 --> 00:25:11.217 quite a bit with all the challenges going on. 737 00:25:11.592 --> 00:25:12.998 And after a while you just kind of go, 738 00:25:13.092 --> 00:25:13.357 gosh, 739 00:25:13.373 --> 00:25:14.139 is this worth it? 740 00:25:14.154 --> 00:25:15.936 Or should I like live around the corner. 741 00:25:16.302 --> 00:25:31.714 because yeah yeah it does add up from time and cost etc too and just the stress the emotional the emotional piece of course of having that fear being that far away not being 742 00:25:31.777 --> 00:25:44.409 there can can overtake in some cases yes exactly and you also feel i think frustrated because you can't physically be there to do things you know and there's like i have a friend who's got a an app um 743 00:25:45.462 --> 00:25:46.283 Avonlea Cares. 744 00:25:46.522 --> 00:25:54.545 And so she's created this app to help people with their aging parents get medication or groceries sent, 745 00:25:54.983 --> 00:25:55.264 you know, 746 00:25:55.303 --> 00:25:55.944 to their door, 747 00:25:56.827 --> 00:25:59.428 which is nice because you can try to manage things remotely. 748 00:25:59.522 --> 00:26:03.084 But sometimes you do end up being in situations where you're like, 749 00:26:03.178 --> 00:26:03.647 physically, 750 00:26:03.678 --> 00:26:04.600 I need to be there. 751 00:26:05.600 --> 00:26:09.381 And that can be frustrating when you're an expat because it's sometimes hard to get there. 752 00:26:09.991 --> 00:26:10.100 So, 753 00:26:10.131 --> 00:26:13.225 yeah. 754 00:26:13.288 --> 00:26:14.053 Yeah, 755 00:26:14.054 --> 00:26:14.225 I know. 756 00:26:14.590 --> 00:26:21.358 kind of it that's sort of a heavy topic right like yeah but I think it's important to actually cover it I don't think it's 757 00:26:22.237 --> 00:26:42.264 I don't think grief is something we actually covered or just a loss of a close one when you're abroad um yeah we haven't had it come up necessarily during during interviews and it does happen and a lot of people say at some point well I indeed I see my parents aging. 758 00:26:42.926 --> 00:26:43.808 I want to be close to them. 759 00:26:43.827 --> 00:26:44.448 I want to help. 760 00:26:45.109 --> 00:26:46.751 And I just want to spend that time. 761 00:26:46.810 --> 00:26:46.931 So 762 00:26:48.153 --> 00:26:48.513 I get it. 763 00:26:48.630 --> 00:26:48.751 I, 764 00:26:49.775 --> 00:26:51.552 I was ready to come back also, 765 00:26:51.693 --> 00:26:53.474 because I, 766 00:26:53.475 --> 00:26:53.653 you know, 767 00:26:53.654 --> 00:26:54.036 I felt, 768 00:26:54.560 --> 00:26:54.857 okay, 769 00:26:55.255 --> 00:26:56.880 weren't right at that stage. 770 00:26:56.919 --> 00:26:58.083 But when I came back, 771 00:26:58.185 --> 00:27:00.841 I saw sort of a difference of before I had left of, 772 00:27:01.060 --> 00:27:01.372 okay, 773 00:27:01.591 --> 00:27:01.997 yeah, 774 00:27:02.044 --> 00:27:02.482 I'm happy. 775 00:27:02.483 --> 00:27:02.919 I'm back, 776 00:27:02.982 --> 00:27:03.403 actually, 777 00:27:03.482 --> 00:27:04.388 right, 778 00:27:04.669 --> 00:27:06.388 to be there and see them more often than 779 00:27:06.950 --> 00:27:07.669 I was before. 780 00:27:08.310 --> 00:27:09.357 You're totally right, 781 00:27:09.388 --> 00:27:09.935 because you 782 00:27:10.382 --> 00:27:30.723 and you do see your parents or your grandparents like age sort of exponentially because you don't see them on a daily basis so I do think sometimes you know it is helpful to have an outside view like we do as an expat because you can say oh gosh okay they've really because I think there's also that bubble when you go back just for a week you know it's 783 00:27:31.801 --> 00:27:36.129 yeah absolutely yeah there's a see them just for a week it's very short 784 00:27:36.262 --> 00:27:52.445 they put on their show they're excited to see you and if you stay longer you see the day-to-day kick in again and how well they can be very tired once they've hosted the whole family after Christmas or whatever it's intense so and 785 00:27:52.586 --> 00:27:55.961 usually you just left after Christmas so you don't see that tiredness after 786 00:27:56.514 --> 00:27:56.874 Totally. 787 00:27:56.995 --> 00:27:57.435 And you know, 788 00:27:57.455 --> 00:27:59.717 the longer you're around your parents or your grandparents, 789 00:27:59.718 --> 00:28:02.660 the more they keep talking and then eventually stuff comes out. 790 00:28:02.661 --> 00:28:03.359 Then you get the info. 791 00:28:04.062 --> 00:28:04.766 Exactly. 792 00:28:04.844 --> 00:28:06.367 So you need to hang in there for a while. 793 00:28:06.601 --> 00:28:07.305 You're right. 794 00:28:07.328 --> 00:28:08.547 That's how it worked for me anyway. 795 00:28:09.906 --> 00:28:10.484 Yeah. 796 00:28:11.367 --> 00:28:16.148 So now that you've been back in the US for quite a while and completely shifted, 797 00:28:16.180 --> 00:28:18.320 you started your own company also. 798 00:28:18.992 --> 00:28:19.742 Yeah. 799 00:28:19.758 --> 00:28:22.164 How is the whole settling in? 800 00:28:23.383 --> 00:28:25.148 The context is completely different, 801 00:28:25.258 --> 00:28:25.805 of course. 802 00:28:26.442 --> 00:28:26.582 Yeah, 803 00:28:27.043 --> 00:28:28.743 I think a couple things on that. 804 00:28:28.744 --> 00:28:29.864 So I've been back in the U.S. 805 00:28:29.986 --> 00:28:31.306 for five months now. 806 00:28:32.607 --> 00:28:36.771 And it's been super fun starting up a company. 807 00:28:36.872 --> 00:28:38.552 So it's called Collabio Healthcare. 808 00:28:38.755 --> 00:28:40.474 And I'm doing it with other, 809 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:41.700 all of us, 810 00:28:41.739 --> 00:28:42.060 by the way, 811 00:28:42.061 --> 00:28:44.161 have had expat experiences. 812 00:28:44.583 --> 00:28:48.458 So it's a collective of about 10 of us who put this together. 813 00:28:48.521 --> 00:28:52.239 We've all had years in pharma and biotech and decided, 814 00:28:52.271 --> 00:28:52.505 you know, 815 00:28:52.521 --> 00:28:53.974 we really want to start our own company. 816 00:28:55.083 --> 00:28:55.927 And we're getting to that. 817 00:28:56.022 --> 00:28:57.804 point where it's just starting to tip over. 818 00:28:57.884 --> 00:28:59.385 So everything's hitting at once, 819 00:28:59.404 --> 00:28:59.986 which is great. 820 00:29:00.846 --> 00:29:02.287 And it's very exciting. 821 00:29:02.389 --> 00:29:09.596 And being able to be a part of a founding group has given me more autonomy and control of my time. 822 00:29:10.057 --> 00:29:11.619 And that's been helpful because, 823 00:29:12.033 --> 00:29:12.299 you know, 824 00:29:12.361 --> 00:29:15.627 my dad is 78 and he's also getting to the point where 825 00:29:16.158 --> 00:29:17.424 I'm having to do things right. 826 00:29:17.502 --> 00:29:18.924 So he's not on the computer. 827 00:29:19.330 --> 00:29:19.439 So 828 00:29:19.893 --> 00:29:23.189 I'm doing his banking or I'm helping him with certain things. 829 00:29:23.205 --> 00:29:23.346 Yeah, 830 00:29:23.408 --> 00:29:23.814 exactly. 831 00:29:24.302 --> 00:29:27.404 And it's been so nice to be able to be back in the U.S. 832 00:29:27.465 --> 00:29:28.928 where I can help him hands on. 833 00:29:29.166 --> 00:29:32.248 Like we had to get his house painted this past week. 834 00:29:32.646 --> 00:29:34.349 And he doesn't want to do any of that. 835 00:29:34.373 --> 00:29:35.834 He doesn't want to coordinate anything. 836 00:29:35.835 --> 00:29:37.435 He wants to make no decisions. 837 00:29:37.639 --> 00:29:38.537 He doesn't want to change. 838 00:29:38.654 --> 00:29:38.873 Right. 839 00:29:38.959 --> 00:29:39.318 Yeah. 840 00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:40.974 I don't even want to get a house painted. 841 00:29:41.006 --> 00:29:41.943 You know, 842 00:29:42.053 --> 00:29:43.443 no one does. 843 00:29:43.444 --> 00:29:43.693 Right. 844 00:29:43.787 --> 00:29:45.709 And it's expensive and he's on a pension. 845 00:29:45.787 --> 00:29:46.006 Right. 846 00:29:46.021 --> 00:29:46.287 And so, 847 00:29:46.709 --> 00:29:46.959 you know, 848 00:29:46.990 --> 00:29:48.912 you have all that stuff to to weigh out. 849 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:50.865 And so it's been. 850 00:29:51.226 --> 00:29:51.607 Great, 851 00:29:51.687 --> 00:29:52.089 honestly. 852 00:29:52.209 --> 00:29:54.978 I've been telling friends I'm so full of joy, 853 00:29:55.682 --> 00:29:55.822 and 854 00:29:56.162 --> 00:29:57.986 I feel that way because 855 00:29:58.766 --> 00:29:59.087 Again, 856 00:29:59.508 --> 00:30:01.308 I'm doing something I've wanted to do, 857 00:30:01.529 --> 00:30:02.310 which was being an entrepreneur. 858 00:30:02.311 --> 00:30:02.390 Yeah, 859 00:30:02.391 --> 00:30:03.230 it was your decision. 860 00:30:03.750 --> 00:30:03.890 Yeah, 861 00:30:03.972 --> 00:30:04.992 and it was my decision. 862 00:30:05.054 --> 00:30:05.414 You're right. 863 00:30:05.433 --> 00:30:06.851 And I had control over that. 864 00:30:07.719 --> 00:30:08.133 And also, 865 00:30:08.734 --> 00:30:08.976 you know, 866 00:30:09.320 --> 00:30:10.781 politically right now in the U.S., 867 00:30:10.836 --> 00:30:12.656 there are crazy things happening. 868 00:30:12.758 --> 00:30:13.820 This is not, 869 00:30:13.922 --> 00:30:15.468 many of my expat friends were like, 870 00:30:15.500 --> 00:30:17.625 why in the world would you choose to go back? 871 00:30:17.626 --> 00:30:18.390 Would you be back now? 872 00:30:19.484 --> 00:30:19.672 Like, 873 00:30:19.906 --> 00:30:21.281 you have horrible timing, 874 00:30:21.375 --> 00:30:21.875 let's be clear. 875 00:30:22.906 --> 00:30:23.203 And so 876 00:30:23.718 --> 00:30:24.390 I've, you know, 877 00:30:24.750 --> 00:30:25.172 and... 878 00:30:25.558 --> 00:30:26.379 they're not wrong. 879 00:30:26.459 --> 00:30:26.719 I mean, 880 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:29.041 there is a lot of upheaval happening. 881 00:30:30.001 --> 00:30:33.166 And so just being able to focus on starting a company, 882 00:30:33.287 --> 00:30:34.228 focus on my dad, 883 00:30:34.830 --> 00:30:36.345 reconnect with all my friends. 884 00:30:36.486 --> 00:30:38.931 Like I had such good friends growing up in Montana. 885 00:30:39.228 --> 00:30:39.455 And, 886 00:30:40.736 --> 00:30:40.970 you know, 887 00:30:41.033 --> 00:30:41.978 like my friend Wendy, 888 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:43.337 and I have a friend here in town, 889 00:30:43.416 --> 00:30:43.697 Rika. 890 00:30:44.712 --> 00:30:48.916 It's been so nice to just get back with them and catch up on life. 891 00:30:49.322 --> 00:30:51.025 Because they knew me as a kid. 892 00:30:51.041 --> 00:30:53.931 We went to elementary school and middle school and high school together. 893 00:30:54.566 --> 00:30:57.228 Like you're able to reconnect in the same place. 894 00:30:57.689 --> 00:30:58.010 I know, 895 00:30:58.170 --> 00:30:58.410 right? 896 00:30:58.492 --> 00:30:58.949 It's great. 897 00:30:59.011 --> 00:30:59.211 Not, 898 00:30:59.551 --> 00:30:59.972 of course, 899 00:31:00.172 --> 00:31:02.312 not everybody in my class stuck around, 900 00:31:02.336 --> 00:31:02.492 right? 901 00:31:02.914 --> 00:31:03.953 But some of them did. 902 00:31:04.578 --> 00:31:09.203 And it's nice to come back to where you grew up and just be accepted. 903 00:31:09.281 --> 00:31:09.984 And they're happy. 904 00:31:10.383 --> 00:31:10.781 They're like, 905 00:31:10.922 --> 00:31:11.828 look at what you've done. 906 00:31:11.859 --> 00:31:13.125 Isn't this awesome? 907 00:31:13.906 --> 00:31:14.219 And, 908 00:31:14.500 --> 00:31:14.765 you know, 909 00:31:14.844 --> 00:31:17.969 come back and then lend your expertise to the community. 910 00:31:18.062 --> 00:31:20.297 Because like my state here in Montana, 911 00:31:20.453 --> 00:31:21.953 it's grown and changed a lot. 912 00:31:22.047 --> 00:31:22.312 I've been 913 00:31:22.870 --> 00:31:26.595 talking to many people about how the biotech scene is burgeoning here. 914 00:31:26.653 --> 00:31:27.173 It's really, 915 00:31:27.235 --> 00:31:27.915 really growing. 916 00:31:28.313 --> 00:31:31.782 And there's been a shift in capital infusion into the state. 917 00:31:31.798 --> 00:31:33.860 There's been more people coming here. 918 00:31:33.938 --> 00:31:34.220 And so 919 00:31:34.884 --> 00:31:39.759 I've been pleasantly surprised that the state is growing in the industry, 920 00:31:39.853 --> 00:31:40.071 you know, 921 00:31:40.072 --> 00:31:41.243 that I've spent my career in. 922 00:31:41.962 --> 00:31:43.712 And I'm happy to help and contribute. 923 00:31:44.118 --> 00:31:45.478 And I think that it's just, 924 00:31:45.509 --> 00:31:45.759 again, 925 00:31:46.493 --> 00:31:46.946 timing. 926 00:31:47.040 --> 00:31:48.134 And this isn't timing. 927 00:31:48.696 --> 00:31:50.540 I could tell you I was trying to map out 928 00:31:50.662 --> 00:31:52.223 or game or choose. 929 00:31:52.224 --> 00:31:52.324 Yeah, 930 00:31:52.325 --> 00:31:52.745 yeah, 931 00:31:52.784 --> 00:31:53.065 yeah. 932 00:31:53.066 --> 00:31:53.706 I think it's just... 933 00:31:53.707 --> 00:31:56.188 It might happen and this is how it's meant to be. 934 00:31:56.309 --> 00:31:56.426 Yeah, 935 00:31:56.427 --> 00:31:57.891 and this is how it's playing out. 936 00:31:57.930 --> 00:31:58.790 And I also think, 937 00:31:58.954 --> 00:31:59.172 too, 938 00:31:59.454 --> 00:31:59.711 you know, 939 00:31:59.727 --> 00:32:00.352 as an expat, 940 00:32:00.368 --> 00:32:02.157 you really have to be true to yourself. 941 00:32:02.852 --> 00:32:03.118 You know, 942 00:32:03.297 --> 00:32:03.797 you've got to, 943 00:32:03.993 --> 00:32:04.211 like, 944 00:32:04.415 --> 00:32:05.875 even you mentioned it earlier, 945 00:32:05.938 --> 00:32:11.383 you need to know when it's time to move or you need to know when it's time to make a shift, 946 00:32:11.477 --> 00:32:11.743 right? 947 00:32:12.227 --> 00:32:16.571 Because you can't just stay one course for your whole entire existence. 948 00:32:16.915 --> 00:32:19.290 I don't know many people who get that luxury, 949 00:32:19.915 --> 00:32:20.165 you know. 950 00:32:20.378 --> 00:32:22.079 I had to move around for my career, 951 00:32:23.402 --> 00:32:24.302 some of it by choice, 952 00:32:24.321 --> 00:32:26.185 but also some of it being opportunistic. 953 00:32:26.224 --> 00:32:28.806 If I wanted to continue to grow in my skill set, 954 00:32:30.087 --> 00:32:31.368 that's the choice that I made. 955 00:32:31.392 --> 00:32:33.931 So you do sacrifice a lot as an expat, 956 00:32:34.173 --> 00:32:35.275 but I think it's worth it. 957 00:32:35.915 --> 00:32:38.501 I don't regret any of my choices, 958 00:32:39.032 --> 00:32:39.298 you know, 959 00:32:39.376 --> 00:32:40.345 the good and the bad. 960 00:32:40.360 --> 00:32:42.657 And there's lots of nights where you're crying, 961 00:32:42.798 --> 00:32:43.079 you know, 962 00:32:43.142 --> 00:32:43.860 where you're just like, 963 00:32:43.923 --> 00:32:44.048 oh, 964 00:32:44.049 --> 00:32:44.423 my God, 965 00:32:44.424 --> 00:32:45.298 I'm so sick of this. 966 00:32:45.329 --> 00:32:45.876 Why am I here? 967 00:32:46.626 --> 00:32:48.110 Why did I do this to myself? 968 00:32:48.642 --> 00:32:48.845 Yeah. 969 00:32:49.470 --> 00:32:49.626 And, 970 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:50.001 um, 971 00:32:50.218 --> 00:32:51.780 I think even through all of that, 972 00:32:52.020 --> 00:32:52.281 you know, 973 00:32:52.579 --> 00:32:54.404 being an expat can be super lonely, 974 00:32:55.603 --> 00:32:59.427 especially at the beginning before you find your friends or before you sort of. 975 00:32:59.451 --> 00:32:59.669 Yeah, 976 00:33:00.247 --> 00:33:01.130 the big tight knit circle. 977 00:33:01.208 --> 00:33:01.326 Yeah. 978 00:33:01.732 --> 00:33:01.849 Yeah. 979 00:33:01.990 --> 00:33:03.591 You're kind of roaming around town, 980 00:33:04.091 --> 00:33:05.294 stopping at coffee shops, 981 00:33:05.396 --> 00:33:05.669 you know, 982 00:33:05.896 --> 00:33:07.107 being a little bit of a tourist, 983 00:33:07.138 --> 00:33:07.716 but thinking, 984 00:33:07.872 --> 00:33:07.997 OK, 985 00:33:08.716 --> 00:33:10.357 I'm going to go back to an empty apartment. 986 00:33:10.404 --> 00:33:11.982 Like I need to get some friends. 987 00:33:12.107 --> 00:33:12.263 Yeah. 988 00:33:12.747 --> 00:33:12.904 Yeah. 989 00:33:12.905 --> 00:33:13.013 So. 990 00:33:13.514 --> 00:33:15.397 I don't know that many people talk about that either. 991 00:33:15.497 --> 00:33:16.977 There's a lot of ups and a lot of downs. 992 00:33:17.639 --> 00:33:17.897 I mean, 993 00:33:18.057 --> 00:33:18.280 yeah, 994 00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:18.538 yeah, 995 00:33:18.581 --> 00:33:19.659 we definitely talk about that. 996 00:33:19.721 --> 00:33:28.292 And the fact that you really need to get out there to make friends and just be very proactive about it, 997 00:33:30.307 --> 00:33:35.088 which also I think goes with adult life of once you finish college and if you move after that, 998 00:33:35.135 --> 00:33:35.370 you know, 999 00:33:35.479 --> 00:33:40.463 it's harder to make friends and you have to get out there a little bit more. 1000 00:33:40.526 --> 00:33:42.042 but I expect 1001 00:33:42.298 --> 00:33:44.279 exponentially when you move abroad 1002 00:33:44.818 --> 00:33:51.398 I guess because you won't have that circle that circle of old childhood friends but 1003 00:33:51.741 --> 00:34:09.562 I'm pretty amazed when you the way that just life has fallen into place back in Montana with you finding reconnecting with those old friends and it it's just the way you say it it seems like yeah 20 30 years whatever have passed but it's 1004 00:34:09.702 --> 00:34:10.687 just there and 1005 00:34:11.470 --> 00:34:14.371 the new cycle has just started with them, 1006 00:34:14.491 --> 00:34:17.493 plus the new environment and everything. 1007 00:34:18.250 --> 00:34:22.571 It just doesn't seem like there's any issue with reverse culture shock at all, 1008 00:34:22.572 --> 00:34:24.274 which is pretty nice. 1009 00:34:25.032 --> 00:34:25.813 It's pretty nice, 1010 00:34:25.852 --> 00:34:26.352 but also, 1011 00:34:26.774 --> 00:34:27.055 you know, 1012 00:34:27.196 --> 00:34:28.118 I have my days, 1013 00:34:28.211 --> 00:34:28.461 right? 1014 00:34:28.508 --> 00:34:28.696 Like, 1015 00:34:29.071 --> 00:34:31.258 it's not that all of this is seamless. 1016 00:34:32.133 --> 00:34:39.914 And it was really helpful when I first moved back from Denmark to just sort of take some time over the summer and focus on my dad. 1017 00:34:40.211 --> 00:34:40.399 Like, 1018 00:34:40.598 --> 00:34:42.601 Like you're just doing stuff like, 1019 00:34:42.602 --> 00:34:44.442 let me get the lawnmower fixed or, 1020 00:34:44.520 --> 00:34:44.661 oh, 1021 00:34:44.802 --> 00:34:46.204 you need a cataract surgery. 1022 00:34:46.282 --> 00:34:46.563 Great. 1023 00:34:46.665 --> 00:34:47.927 Let's schedule that. 1024 00:34:48.364 --> 00:34:48.630 You know, 1025 00:34:48.685 --> 00:34:53.614 and it sort of it allows you to kind of get back into the. 1026 00:34:53.935 --> 00:34:54.270 Get in. 1027 00:34:54.575 --> 00:34:54.872 Yeah. 1028 00:34:54.873 --> 00:34:55.130 Right. 1029 00:34:55.395 --> 00:34:55.630 You know, 1030 00:34:55.974 --> 00:34:57.427 and get to meet his doctors. 1031 00:34:57.474 --> 00:34:57.739 And then, 1032 00:34:58.083 --> 00:34:58.317 you know, 1033 00:34:58.380 --> 00:34:59.130 my family is 1034 00:34:59.739 --> 00:35:02.458 Christian. And so go back to church and talk to everybody there. 1035 00:35:02.833 --> 00:35:05.802 And that sense of like community and kind of. 1036 00:35:06.334 --> 00:35:07.576 Starting to tell the story. 1037 00:35:07.797 --> 00:35:08.278 It does. 1038 00:35:08.378 --> 00:35:10.222 And I think that's what makes it easier to, 1039 00:35:11.343 --> 00:35:12.566 but you've got to be willing, 1040 00:35:13.265 --> 00:35:13.886 just like you said, 1041 00:35:13.909 --> 00:35:15.370 you've got to be willing to go out and make friends, 1042 00:35:15.394 --> 00:35:17.011 but you also have to be willing to kind of. 1043 00:35:17.299 --> 00:35:19.701 be a little vulnerable and share your story with people. 1044 00:35:20.903 --> 00:35:23.186 And I think most people are interested in that. 1045 00:35:23.666 --> 00:35:23.783 Oh, 1046 00:35:23.885 --> 00:35:24.365 yeah. 1047 00:35:24.366 --> 00:35:25.705 I think they always are. 1048 00:35:25.706 --> 00:35:25.869 Yeah, 1049 00:35:26.010 --> 00:35:29.533 because it's fun to hear about somebody's life and what are you doing that I'm not doing. 1050 00:35:29.588 --> 00:35:30.432 And yeah, 1051 00:35:30.674 --> 00:35:32.112 so that's been good. 1052 00:35:32.651 --> 00:35:33.072 Yeah, 1053 00:35:33.073 --> 00:35:33.291 right. 1054 00:35:34.174 --> 00:35:35.002 Would you do it again? 1055 00:35:35.143 --> 00:35:35.533 I don't know. 1056 00:35:35.674 --> 00:35:36.721 So we'll see. 1057 00:35:36.752 --> 00:35:38.893 Okay. 1058 00:35:38.894 --> 00:35:39.033 Well, 1059 00:35:39.065 --> 00:35:39.846 thank you so much. 1060 00:35:39.955 --> 00:35:42.440 Let's finish with your recommendations. 1061 00:35:44.002 --> 00:35:45.643 Would you want to do them in... 1062 00:35:46.099 --> 00:35:49.099 Montana or in the United States? 1063 00:35:49.100 --> 00:35:49.160 Oh, 1064 00:35:49.179 --> 00:35:49.779 that's a good one. 1065 00:35:49.780 --> 00:35:51.220 How about if I do a couple of both? 1066 00:35:51.619 --> 00:35:54.142 So we can mix it up. 1067 00:35:54.205 --> 00:35:56.439 If somebody happens to be in one country or the other. 1068 00:35:56.580 --> 00:35:56.705 So 1069 00:35:57.978 --> 00:35:59.361 I gave some thought to this. 1070 00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:01.486 So when I first moved to Copenhagen, 1071 00:36:01.619 --> 00:36:06.798 there were two places that I hung out at a lot that were really expat friendly. 1072 00:36:06.876 --> 00:36:09.189 So one was a restaurant called Zahida. 1073 00:36:10.158 --> 00:36:12.986 And I would recommend people check that out in downtown Copenhagen. 1074 00:36:13.126 --> 00:36:14.298 It is killer food. 1075 00:36:14.587 --> 00:36:23.186 excellent excellent food and the vibe is super fun I have had more conversations there that were just enjoyable I brought friends from the U.S. 1076 00:36:23.248 --> 00:36:38.592 there I hung out with Danish friends there and I really recommend that place I also love Union Kitchen that's a great spot that place had kind of like an American brunch menu you know like a little avocado toast some pancakes whatever 1077 00:36:39.420 --> 00:36:41.092 I kind of like that once in a while so 1078 00:36:41.592 --> 00:36:43.811 I'd recommend Union Kitchen um and then 1079 00:36:44.231 --> 00:36:44.491 You know, 1080 00:36:44.551 --> 00:36:45.352 in Montana, 1081 00:36:45.392 --> 00:36:46.853 there are so many places. 1082 00:36:46.894 --> 00:36:50.416 So if people come out to go fly fishing or skiing or hiking, 1083 00:36:50.838 --> 00:36:51.119 you know, 1084 00:36:51.299 --> 00:36:52.963 in Billings or Bozeman, 1085 00:36:53.017 --> 00:36:53.424 Missoula, 1086 00:36:53.478 --> 00:36:54.799 there's a lot of great places. 1087 00:36:55.259 --> 00:36:58.244 But one of my favorite coffee shops in town, 1088 00:36:58.322 --> 00:36:58.963 like in Billings, 1089 00:36:59.002 --> 00:36:59.408 Bozeman, 1090 00:36:59.767 --> 00:37:01.220 that area is City Brew. 1091 00:37:01.674 --> 00:37:03.205 They're like a local coffee shop. 1092 00:37:03.752 --> 00:37:05.158 The people are so nice. 1093 00:37:05.236 --> 00:37:06.017 When I came back, 1094 00:37:06.049 --> 00:37:07.455 I kept saying to my dad, 1095 00:37:07.736 --> 00:37:08.314 the staff, 1096 00:37:08.502 --> 00:37:09.814 why are they so nice? 1097 00:37:09.877 --> 00:37:12.205 And some of this is that American service culture. 1098 00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:12.699 Right. 1099 00:37:12.940 --> 00:37:13.520 Yeah. 1100 00:37:13.521 --> 00:37:14.381 Where I was clicking back into that. 1101 00:37:14.382 --> 00:37:15.723 Especially coming from the Nordics, 1102 00:37:15.724 --> 00:37:16.022 you know. 1103 00:37:16.083 --> 00:37:16.622 Totally. 1104 00:37:16.641 --> 00:37:18.106 Yeah. 1105 00:37:18.107 --> 00:37:19.184 That was quite different. 1106 00:37:19.547 --> 00:37:19.965 You're right. 1107 00:37:20.665 --> 00:37:20.868 But, 1108 00:37:21.188 --> 00:37:21.446 you know, 1109 00:37:21.447 --> 00:37:23.430 a lot of them are like kind of high school, 1110 00:37:23.571 --> 00:37:26.735 early college kids and they just want to chat and they're sweet. 1111 00:37:27.352 --> 00:37:28.696 So I recommend City Brew. 1112 00:37:28.977 --> 00:37:29.852 It's a good local spot. 1113 00:37:30.430 --> 00:37:30.633 Yeah. 1114 00:37:31.305 --> 00:37:32.555 That is a good question. 1115 00:37:32.696 --> 00:37:32.821 So 1116 00:37:34.227 --> 00:37:35.383 I gave that some thought too. 1117 00:37:35.446 --> 00:37:37.899 So there's an old hymn that I grew up with as a kid. 1118 00:37:38.961 --> 00:37:39.290 That's. 1119 00:37:39.811 --> 00:37:39.931 Uh, 1120 00:37:40.051 --> 00:37:42.094 it's like great as your faithfulness. 1121 00:37:42.854 --> 00:37:45.135 And it kind of makes me tear up because 1122 00:37:45.877 --> 00:37:49.725 I think as I went through like the death of my mom and my brother, 1123 00:37:50.764 --> 00:37:51.662 you sort of have to, 1124 00:37:51.959 --> 00:37:52.764 at least for me, 1125 00:37:53.061 --> 00:37:54.568 it's been really great to, 1126 00:37:54.569 --> 00:37:55.740 um, 1127 00:37:56.522 --> 00:37:58.022 to tag in with my faith, 1128 00:37:58.772 --> 00:37:59.068 you know, 1129 00:37:59.272 --> 00:38:02.287 and just have that be no matter where I live in the world, 1130 00:38:02.818 --> 00:38:04.272 like it's a good underpinning. 1131 00:38:04.334 --> 00:38:04.553 Right. 1132 00:38:05.131 --> 00:38:05.334 And 1133 00:38:05.912 --> 00:38:07.897 I don't know why I get emotional talking about that, 1134 00:38:07.943 --> 00:38:08.100 but 1135 00:38:08.543 --> 00:38:13.387 It's a song that like I grew up with in my family and it means a lot to me. 1136 00:38:14.368 --> 00:38:17.411 And so just kind of remembering no matter what I'm going through, 1137 00:38:17.412 --> 00:38:18.012 if it's working, 1138 00:38:18.051 --> 00:38:18.575 not working, 1139 00:38:18.614 --> 00:38:19.637 if it's really tough, 1140 00:38:20.255 --> 00:38:20.536 you know, 1141 00:38:20.653 --> 00:38:26.356 like whatever's going on with a move or you're trying to sign a lease in another language or whatever, 1142 00:38:26.434 --> 00:38:26.637 right? 1143 00:38:26.715 --> 00:38:28.528 All these tough things that we do that, 1144 00:38:28.856 --> 00:38:29.137 you know, 1145 00:38:29.278 --> 00:38:32.325 there's faithfulness throughout that. 1146 00:38:33.169 --> 00:38:34.169 So that would be my song. 1147 00:38:35.903 --> 00:38:36.075 Yeah, 1148 00:38:36.434 --> 00:38:37.309 it's a good old hymn. 1149 00:38:37.759 --> 00:38:39.740 It's not something probably most people would pick, 1150 00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:40.240 but for me, 1151 00:38:40.241 --> 00:38:42.441 it kind of runs in the back of my mind that, 1152 00:38:42.722 --> 00:38:42.859 yeah, 1153 00:38:43.359 --> 00:38:44.882 there's a strong foundation. 1154 00:38:45.460 --> 00:38:45.601 Well, 1155 00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:47.398 thank you so much for sharing, 1156 00:38:47.921 --> 00:38:48.898 for being vulnerable, 1157 00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:49.484 definitely. 1158 00:38:49.718 --> 00:38:51.960 And yeah, 1159 00:38:52.499 --> 00:38:54.663 just giving the full story as it is. 1160 00:38:54.898 --> 00:38:56.226 And as usual, 1161 00:38:56.304 --> 00:38:58.023 you can find everything, 1162 00:38:58.288 --> 00:39:04.351 all the places in the comments and keep the updates on Instagram. 1163 00:39:04.585 --> 00:39:05.820 and you can also put a... 1164 00:39:06.367 --> 00:39:14.568 five-star rating on apple podcast or spotify do that thanks pauline it's fun to be on your podcast appreciate it