Hello my friends and welcome back to the Deep Seat podcast.
Today
I decided to start the episode with a more personal message which is something I've never done yet on the podcast but I felt like it was maybe time for me to open up a little bit more to you on a personal level.
I dedicated the last 15 years of my life to a career in the music industry as a singer-songwriter,
as a
music producer,
as a performer.
And
I had the most amazing time in my
20s, traveling the world,
making music,
playing shows in front of people,
and basically living the dream that
I had envisioned for myself when I was a teenager.
A couple of years ago,
I started to feel very frustrated with the music industry,
and I felt like it was a very toxic environment to be in,
and I didn't feel like I was contributing to society in a deeper,
more meaningful way.
I was already quite aware of the deep issues and challenges that we face as a society,
and I really wanted to focus on being part of the solutions.
I started by reading books and watching documentaries and talking to a lot of people,
and
And eventually I came across the topic of regenerative agriculture and that's when it really clicked.
So long story short,
because I didn't come from an agriculture background and my skills were more in
communication in media and marketing.
So I thought that the most meaningful way I could contribute to the regenerative agriculture movement was to start my own podcast.
Long story short,
I launched the Deep Seed podcast about 10 months ago,
back in February 2024,
and I have so far released about 30 different episodes.
And since...
We're arriving at the end of the year.
I kind of feel like season one of The Deep Seed is coming to an end.
And
I'm already actively working on season two because
I already have some amazing episodes recorded and ready to release early next year.
But before we get there,
I thought it would be nice to go back and highlight some of my favorite moments from this first season.
Okay,
so...
When you start a conversation about regenerative agriculture,
it always makes sense to start with the assessment of the current global food system so that we can understand the problems before we can discuss the solutions.
And one of my guests in particular did an amazing job at doing just that and that's why I decided to start with this extract from my conversation with
Duncan Williamson.
My first question is a pretty big one.
What's your assessment of the current global food system?
Okay,
so,
right,
first of all,
I'm not going to say food systems are broken.
You often hear people talking around food systems are broken.
And I think current food systems...
are doing exactly what they're meant to do.
They are industrial systems which are set up to make a lot of money for some corporations and to produce as many calories as they possibly can.
And that's what they're doing.
It's what 12 crops and 3 to 5 livestock species make 85% of the calories that we're eating.
And they're doing really well.
They're producing loads and loads of food.
We could feed 10 billion people tomorrow if we chose to.
The problem with it is it's built on foundations of sand.
It's very,
very vulnerable to climate change,
nature loss,
water depletion.
It's also a system that's creating...
malnutrition across the planet and malnutrition is bad nutrition,
bad food and even if you look at some of the latest assessments it's up to 50% of the global population is malnourished and that's well
750 million people are going to go to bed hungry tonight but there's almost 3 billion people who are overweight or who are obese
or suffering from diet-related ill health.
So it's a system that is deeply unfair,
that's causing health problems,
but it is producing food,
it is making money.
If you look at it,
during the pandemic,
the retailers made record profits from what some people said was a broken food system.
So someone's making a lot of money out of it.
Food production globally didn't go down.
So....
And the problem with all of this is it is so destructive to the planet.
It's the leading cause of nature loss.
I think between 60 and 80% of global biodiversity loss is linked to the food system.
It's the leading cause of soil erosion.
It's the leading user of water.
And we're walking into a global water crisis,
which...
isn't talked about nearly enough as it is.
It's a significant contributor to global greenhouse gas emissions and it's making people really,
really unhealthy.
It's also one of the main causes of water pollution and air pollution.
So the food system is deeply,
deeply damaging and that's the problem with it at the moment.
And it's a system that if we're not careful,
it's going to be so fragile that it will start breaking down and it will start collapsing.
if there's not a radical change to it.
But there are pockets of hope.
You see the rise of agroecology.
You see the fact that people are recognising the need for sustainable fishing,
fishing practices.
You recognise things like agricultural biodiversity are starting to gain traction.
People are talking about sustainable diets.
There's definitely something happening,
which is recognising we know the solutions,
but it's very,
very slow,
and the vested interests want to...
keep the status quo,
much like they do with the energy sector,
because it's making them a lot of money.
And the one thing I think it's important to mention as well,
when we...
Talk about the food system.
It's the second most subsidised system on the planet.
It's also,
which makes it affordable to keep the industrial system going as it is,
because it's such a fake cost.
We don't pay the true cost of food.
And I think that is so important to recognise,
because people often say it's too expensive to shift to sustainable food systems,
when in fact,
if you take away the subsidies for industrial agriculture,
and the subsidies for the energy system for which it relies on,
suddenly it's not affordable at all.
And if you redirected that money to healthy,
sustainable food systems built in agroecology,
suddenly agroecology becomes really,
really,
really affordable and the cheaper option.
And that's before you take account of the fact that the current food system costs billions in healthcare.
It's trillions in lost earnings for society and the wider social implications of this food system.
It's...
It damages people's education.
It does so many other impacts to it that it's built on a false economic model that relies on not taking account of the true costs of food,
but it also relies on us as citizens to subsidise it,
to prop it up so money can go to shareholders,
which seems massively immoral,
as well as something that needs to change.
And if you did change that,
food system would become sustainable.
OK,
so...
So...
A very dark yet realistic assessment of the global food system there,
but with a light at the end of the tunnel.
Because as you mentioned,
we have an opportunity to transform that system from a damaging and an extractive one towards a sustainable and even regenerative one.
So let's talk about the solutions there.
Yeah,
I mean,
that's the thing.
For too long,
I think,
I mean,
a lot of my career has been around working with civil society.
and even in my new role at Forum for the Future,
where I'm the global lead on the food system transformation,
a lot of their messages has been around,
oh,
everything is doom and gloom,
we can't change it,
oh,
look at the problems that are going on with it.
And I don't think that's helped at all.
And it's now,
like my work with Forum,
we look for solutions to it.
And there are so many solutions that are present,
so many solutions that we know that can deliver a just and regenerative transformation to food systems globally.
and it's creating the will whether it's from corporates whether it's from policy makers to make that change it's working with the people who can do it and a lot of the people who can do it are the farmers and the fishermen fisher folk who understand how to do things sustainably but they respond to market forces so
there's lots of ways around it and you look at it there's different solutions in every location and a lot of the solutions are not new they're old solutions we just need to embrace them
And you can do that.
And if you look at the solutions,
whether it's how you grow,
how you eat,
what you sell,
there's so many ways through it.
And most of them are really simple.
You are a sustainable diet expert.
And so I want to talk a little bit about nutrition because I feel like it's potentially a key lever for change here.
I came across a bunch of recent studies showing that the nutritional value of the food that we buy and we eat today has dropped.
dramatically in the last century.
What's your explanation for that?
I think the simple thing is climate change.
What we know is climate change is making foods less nutritious.
There's a couple of things climate change is doing to food systems which is quite terrifying.
One is it means yields will start to drop soon.
And we're going to see some of the global harvests are going to start to decrease.
So you're either going to need more chemicals or you're going to need to put more land aside to grow the same amount of food,
not grow more food.
But also we're seeing that across the world that a lot of crops,
particularly because it's so many...
monocultures and single species that we're growing they're becoming less nutritious because of the change in weather and it's not just the crops but say the grasses that cows cows eat are becoming less nutritious so cows and the milk they produce are becoming less nutritious as well so it's going across the board and climate change is massively impacting on
that it's a part of food systems that aren't getting nearly enough attention yet
And then another problem is a lot of the industrial systems don't tend to produce as nutritious food.
Because say,
particularly if we look at animals,
a chicken is omnivorous.
A chicken should be eating everything.
I mean,
I've had sort of chickens most of my life.
And if you want an animal that can clear your garden of all the insects and all the pests and all the seeds and stuff like that and eat the grass,
chickens,
they're brilliant.
They eat everything.
And that means you have a meat animal or an egg,
which is really nutritious because it's got so much.
difference is going into it like a person would if you ate lots of food but when you feed an animal on a diet of just one or two things it's less nutritious naturally and if an animal isn't doing as much exercise if it's on a perch in a barn or something it doesn't develop the muscle so it's less it's going to be less nutritious as well it's going to be a different form of meat so
What you're seeing is climate change and then how we rear our food is making it less nutritious as a result of that.
And it's something we need to look at.
There's loads of solutions around it.
One around promoting our cultural biodiversity.
it is a massive issue that hasn't got enough attention yet and we need to start really worrying about it before we end up in a position where food is just not nutritious at all.
What about the impact of farming practices on nutrition?
Because,
I mean,
it's my understanding that soil health,
so the amount and diversity of microbial life in the soil is key to the nutritional value of foods because
That network of microbes is working really hard to find nutrients and deliver them to the roots of plants.
And it kind of makes sense that then that plant would be super healthy and rich in all kinds of micronutrients.
While in a soil that's been heavily damaged by plowing and spraying chemicals,
wouldn't have that vibrant microbial community helping the plants to access all of these nutrients.
Yeah,
no,
completely.
Completely true.
You need to look after the soil and look after everything else.
And I think that's such an important lesson that we need.
That's why we need to move away from monocultures and monocrops because,
like you say,
fertilizers,
pesticides,
that goes into it.
You don't want to overgraze something because that kills the grass.
But we also need to look at how to enhance soil and how to enhance biodiversity because as climate change is affecting ecosystems,
it means species are moving.
encourage the new biodiversity in there which can help maintain the soil it's really important to bring back trees onto farms is look at how we are treating the land and the right density but it's so important because livestock are massively important they they're manure it's brilliant that manure is a bed of nutrient for soil for grasses
for insects there's so much livestock bring to plants if you do it to bring to soil if you do it right and we need to really encourage that
and step away from the chemical focused life,
chemical focused farming systems we have and look to more natural agroecological ones.
What is your vision for the future of farming and food?
If you had to describe the ideal situation,
let's say
20 years from now,
what would it look like?
Okay,
my vision will come down to...
varied food food systems there's not one single food system they must be culturally appropriate because we all have different cultures different histories and i think we should learn from our food histories and where we've come from but i think a food system built on agricultural biodiversity there's well
over 6 000 varieties of plants you can eat that we know about that could be commercially produced so we build you
our food systems on diverse food systems diverse varieties which will be probably a lot tastier as well they work for rural communities you recognize the role that farmers fisher people in their communities play they get paid a real price a proper price for
their food they're valued it is food that is accessible to everyone it's not we don't have like organics being eaten by the elites that sort of thing everyone can eat
good food at a price they can afford.
That's why
I envisage it for people,
but it's a food system that leaves space for nature,
which means we have no industrial industrialization.
We get rid of the industrial livestock and industrial crops.
We don't need them.
It's a food system built around agroecological principles,
which every study I've said,
I've read,
which if you look at that,
built around sustainable diets,
will leave...
plenty of room for nature to thrive and that is so important that we regenerate nature we need the insects we need the trees we need the plants we need the animals the birds we i mean we look at the poor reptiles in such a state at the moment we need them this is a food system that will give us enough water as well and we don't have enough water so
it's almost a relocalizing the food system built on agroecological principles accessible to everyone
And if we did that,
and we can do that,
it's a system we can do,
that's what we need to do,
that's what we mean.
And if we did that food system,
I genuinely think if we fix the food system like that,
we can fix every other environmental problem on the planet.
But if we don't,
we're not going to be able to fix the other environmental problems.
The original conversation I had with Duncan was,
I think,
maybe an hour and a half long.
And it was such an interesting conversation.
And it was so hard for me to pick just a few passages to share with you in this highlights episode.
But so,
yeah,
if you found this interesting,
I cannot recommend enough going back to listen to the full episode on the Deep Seat podcast.
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will see you in the next episode until then take good care of yourselves and see you soon